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[00:01:42] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] Minor spelling corrections (#8272) created by Brian Behlendorf <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/issues/8272>
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[00:07:54] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] Minor spelling corrections (#8272) comment by Neal Gompa (?????????) <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/issues/8272>
[00:10:57] <ptx0> ProcessLasso is kinda neat cirdan
[00:11:04] <cirdan> ?
[00:11:08] <cirdan> whatssat
[00:11:21] <ptx0> i can't get farcry 5 to run in a 4 core VM but i can in a 2 NUMA zone 8 core VM
[00:11:26] <ptx0> but the perf is glitchy
[00:11:33] <ptx0> processlasso runs in windows, forces affinity
[00:11:53] <PMT> Forces better than naive affinity.
[00:11:56] <ptx0> running it in "Forced Mode" which seems to override the game's built in affinity definitions
[00:12:55] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] Minor spelling corrections (#8272) comment by bunder2015 <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/issues/8272>
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[00:19:27] <ptx0> hmm but the anti cheat detection seems triggered
[00:21:02] <Shinigami-Sama> your version has that nonsense?
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[00:21:45] <bunder> lol cantrill posted that phoronix article on hackernews
[00:22:05] <bunder> no comments though
[00:22:29] <PMT> posted it where?
[00:22:38] <PMT> oh i see
[00:24:05] <bunder> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18886628
[00:25:58] <bunder> how does anyone use this website, its like reddit but worse, somehow
[00:25:59] <PMT> hm something about the phoronix forums is pissing off my web browser and displaying strange artifacts
[00:26:30] <cirdan> yeah
[00:26:39] <cirdan> i thought it would let me comment but it wants an account
[00:27:08] <bunder> so make one, gmails are cheap
[00:27:13] <cirdan> pass
[00:27:32] <bunder> i can't be bothered either, if nobody else posted a comment either :P
[00:27:34] <PMT> especially when you can just append a unique token to the name you register and thereby filter them if someone gives your address to spammers
[00:27:35] <cirdan> i'll post it here: "What bull. They removed a standard API to make it "GPL" only? I guess then it's fair game to wrap it back to universal."
[00:27:36] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] ZVOLs should not be allowed to have children (#8181) new review comment by loli10K <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/pull/8181#discussion_r247283415>
[00:27:54] <cirdan> PMT: i do with with my own domains
[00:28:12] <cirdan> reddit at domain dot net, bestbuy@, etc
[00:29:11] <PMT> cirdan: sure, I'm just observing that you can e.g. do PMT+foo at gmail dot com and it goes to PMT at gmail dot com
[00:29:17] <cirdan> kinda amusing that gmail doesn't see . in usernames. i get some interesting spam sometimes
[00:29:33] <bunder> i used to use me+something@domain
[00:29:58] <bunder> maildrop can put those into folders when it sees the +
[00:30:05] <jasonwc> I don't get it. I'm running a fio randomwrite 4k test and it's showing over 1GB/sec write to the NVMe SSD in zpool iostat while fio only shows about 160 MB/sec. the dataset had recordsize=4k.
[00:30:07] <PMT> A friend of mine uses [cryptographic sha256 hash]@[hisdomain]
[00:30:08] <cirdan> seems easy enough for smarter spammers to strip the + and anything after it
[00:30:21] <cirdan> bunder: cyrus can do it on it's own
[00:30:42] <bunder> technically maildrop is part of courier-imap but /shrug
[00:30:56] <bunder> i forget if postfix can do it too
[00:30:59] <PMT> jasonwc: without more data, I couldn't begin to guess. What does iostat say?
[00:31:05] <PMT> (Note that I did not say zpool iostat.)
[00:31:16] <jasonwc> yeah, I realized you meant iostat
[00:31:18] <jasonwc> I'll check
[00:31:19] <Shinigami-Sama> I cant go forward or backwards in the comments without allowing half a million other domains to run js...
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[00:39:11] <jasonwc> PMT: well, that's... special. I also noticed that when I ran this test from /var/lib/libvirt/images on my root pool I saw zero activity on that pool. Instead, the activity is on my data pool of spinning disks. There's no symbolic link. I have no idea why that would be.
[00:39:55] <jasonwc> well, df -h explains. This is truly bizarre.
[00:40:02] <jasonwc> data/zsimplesnap/ 22T 33G 22T 1% /var/lib/libvirt/images
[00:40:04] <jasonwc> I did not do this...
[00:40:44] <PMT> sounds like you and nfsiostat might need to be friends, depending on what kind of mount that is.
[00:40:51] <jasonwc> zfs list shows this:
[00:40:53] <PMT> well, no, i guess that's just a backup list.
[00:40:55] <jasonwc> rpool-server/var/libvirt-images 5.59G 647G 5.59G /var/lib/libvirt/images
[00:41:39] <PMT> jasonwc: that sounds like one of them was configured to ignore mounting on non-empty locations
[00:41:42] <PMT> surprise
[00:42:09] <jasonwc> oh, god. It probably mounted the backup before the main dir
[00:42:18] <jasonwc> I forgot to set the backup dir to not mount
[00:42:20] <jasonwc> I just set this up
[00:43:10] <jasonwc> or not - data/zsimplesnap/ 11.0G 21.9T 10.7G none
[00:43:22] <jasonwc> data/zsimplesnap/ mountpoint none local
[00:44:13] <PMT> I trust df if it says it mounted.
[00:44:19] <jasonwc> Yeah, it was
[00:44:21] <jasonwc> I just unmounted it
[00:44:23] <bunder> no mountpoint, oops
[00:44:27] <PMT> (It's possible for df to be incorrect, but.)
[00:44:41] <jasonwc> well, there wasn't supposed to be a mountpoint - that's the backup dir
[00:44:53] <jasonwc> the mountpoint was correct for the source pool
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[00:45:31] <jasonwc> Well, that explains why installing a Debian VM took so damn long
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[00:45:43] <bunder> oh, because people have made that mistake before, including me
[00:45:44] <jasonwc> raidz and spinning disks isn't great for 4K writes
[00:50:11] <jasonwc> well, now it's writing to the correct disk :P
[00:53:48] <jasonwc> It still seems to have write amplication but the ratio is now 2:1, not 5:1. I have recordsize=4k. fio command was fio --randrepeat=1 --ioengine=libaio --direct=0 --gtod_reduce=1 --name=test3 --filename=test3 --bs=4k --iodepth=32 --size=4G --readwrite=randwrite
[00:53:50] <jasonwc> https://pastebin.com/KGkdVNZF
[00:58:56] <jasonwc> Well, installing Debian is now 10x faster. I thought it was weirdly slow before. Didnt' realize it was writing to a bunch of spinning disks.
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[01:41:27] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] ZTS: zpool_resilver_restart (#8273) created by Brian Behlendorf <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/issues/8273>
[01:46:00] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] port async unlinked drain from illumos-nexenta (#8142) new review comment by Alek P <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/pull/8142#discussion_r247293422>
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[01:48:03] <Crocodillian> gparted does not read any details about zfs pools
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[08:04:59] <madwizard> I see that test bots compile the code for ARM, does it mean ZFS works on ARM Linux?
[08:07:06] <ptx0> yes
[08:09:11] <CompanionCube> (just beware of borked raidz before some 0.7.x version...i forget which)
[08:12:56] <gyakovlev> madwizard: just compiled built raspberry pi (32-bit more) with zfs. it's a bit silly and not recommended but it works =)
[08:16:07] <CompanionCube> (also, can i lately join the 'screw greg' group? :P)
[08:22:09] * ptx0 <3 `fancontrol`
[08:25:17] <pink_mist> what's greg kh been up to that he's suddenly getting so much hate? 0_o
[08:25:25] <pink_mist> (I'm assuming it's kh)
[08:27:34] <ptx0> https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20190110182413.GA6932 at kroah dot com/
[08:29:50] <pink_mist> wow, holy shit
[08:30:10] <pink_mist> guess I'll join the bandwaggon
[08:30:50] <CompanionCube> if it was a proprietary module he'd have a leg to standon
[08:30:55] <CompanionCube> but nope.
[08:31:28] <ptx0> he has ignored my email
[08:32:19] <madwizard> gyakovlev: Wow
[08:34:52] <madwizard> He has personal agenda against comapny that is dead for 8 years now
[08:35:00] <madwizard> Because of that open source project must suffer
[08:40:27] <madwizard> Coffee++
[08:41:02] <ptx0> check the reddit comments on the issue, too
[08:41:12] <ptx0> bunch of boot lickers talking about how evil oracle and CDDL are
[08:41:29] <ptx0> oh and how linux will just come up with a replacement for zfs
[08:41:35] <madwizard> Yep
[08:41:37] <CompanionCube> not most of them
[08:41:48] <CompanionCube> most of them are just mildly supportive of greg
[08:42:27] <ptx0> nope, on /r/linux it is purely people saying that oracle should relicense etc
[08:42:52] <madwizard> Not gonna happen
[08:42:53] <madwizard> Sadyl
[08:42:55] <madwizard> Sadly
[08:43:09] <ptx0> even if oracle did relicense, openzfs contributors would all need to sign off
[08:43:20] <ptx0> good luck getting ahold of them all
[08:43:23] <CompanionCube> that reminds me
[08:43:39] <CompanionCube> did zol ever close off the bit in the cddl about new versions?
[08:43:46] <ptx0> for new files.
[08:43:57] <CompanionCube> I mean, if the lawnmower ever grows a conscience...
[08:44:17] <ptx0> the redditors keep using Danese Cooper as evidence that sun / oracle don't want GPL compatibility
[08:44:30] <ptx0> ye know, a sun employee who said something on a stage at a conference?
[08:44:51] <ptx0> but Mark Maybee said a bunch of stuff on stage and it turned out Oracle disagreed with him :P
[08:45:22] <ptx0> employees aren't correct just because they are on a stage, and from her comments it sounds like Danese wants to be more important than Bryan, who she probably (rightfully) despises.
[08:45:23] <madwizard> What did Danese Cooper do?
[08:45:47] <madwizard> I missed the drama
[08:45:50] <ptx0> she said that Sun wanted to be incompatible with GPL, that she was in the room and Bryan wasn't, that he's funny, but not reliable, some shit etc
[08:46:02] <ptx0> it's all hearsay
[08:46:18] <ptx0> Oracle refuses to touch the issue with a infinite length pole
[08:46:19] <madwizard> Khm.
[08:46:26] <madwizard> Small wonder
[08:46:30] <ptx0> they are the only ones who can clarify
[08:46:32] <madwizard> Or none at all
[08:46:51] <ptx0> everyone else is playing armchair lawyer with misplaced confidence
[08:46:59] <madwizard> :)
[08:47:11] <CompanionCube> who really cares what the *company* thought in 2005 anyway
[08:47:18] <madwizard> I'll go with Eben Moglen until someone proves him wrong
[08:47:25] <madwizard> Yep. It wasn't even Oracle then
[08:50:44] <PMT> ptx0: why would she rightfully despise him
[08:50:55] <ptx0> because he is a massive douche
[08:51:03] <madwizard> Bryan has big mouth
[08:51:11] <ptx0> i would say the same thing about myself
[08:51:23] <CompanionCube> his linux rants were 10/10 though
[08:51:28] <ptx0> i'm an aggressive loudmouth and i have run-ins with people who rightfully don't like me afterward
[08:51:39] <ptx0> i'm pretty sure that's bryan's problem too
[08:52:20] <ptx0> PMT: as for her motivation it's purely speculation but if she didn't find him to be repulsive then she wasn't paying attention
[08:53:03] * CompanionCube thinks they might be both right from different perspectives
[08:53:19] <ptx0> sure, both could be obscuring the total truth
[08:53:37] <ptx0> maybe someone in the room wanted CDDL to be incompatible but perhaps it wasn't their overall goal as a company.
[08:54:02] <ptx0> who gives a fuck? either way, i can freely compile and use ZFS on Linux, and I can redistribute its source code.
[08:54:28] <CompanionCube> I was thinking 'management wanted the incompatibility but cantrill and friends didn't and thought it would not be problematic
[08:55:14] <ptx0> if i had bonus pay every time something awful was allowed to happen because fixing the paperwork was too expensive, i wouldn't need to work
[08:56:53] <ptx0> oh jeez
[08:57:07] <ptx0> Danese's statement wasn't even made on a stage at a conference
[08:57:12] <ptx0> it was in a youtube comment, 6 years ago.
[08:57:29] <ptx0> i forgot youtube comments are legally binding
[08:57:31] <ptx0> ahahahahaha
[08:59:56] <rlaager_> Personally, I'd like to see OpenZFS relicense to something like (CDDL || GPL-2+) or (CDDL || BSD). Yes, I realize that requires contacting a bunch of people. It's reasonably possible, and the longer you wait, the worse it gets. Anyway, that way, if Oracle ever did relicense their piece, OpenZFS would be good to go.
[09:00:39] <CompanionCube> or MPLv2
[09:00:59] <rlaager_> I don't much care what it is, as long as it is GPL-2 compatible because Linux.
[09:01:19] <ptx0> CDDL has patent grants.
[09:01:24] <Sketch> the SPL is already GPL
[09:01:26] <CompanionCube> rlaager_: it's the replacement for the license the CDDL was derived from
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[09:01:34] <Sketch> seems unlikely they would be able to relicense the stuff from sun
[09:01:49] <rlaager_> Sketch: Who is "they" in that sentence?
[09:02:11] <Sketch> "openzfs"
[09:03:03] <rlaager_> Sketch: Correct. I'm saying to relicense everything that's not copyright Oracle (formerly Sun) such that *if* Oracle ever relicensed their piece, OpenZFS would be instantly GPL-compatible
[09:04:43] <Sketch> i see
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[09:13:03] <madwizard> I think I agree with CompanionCube. What Sun wanted back then is irrelevant now. Relevant is possible, positive interpretation that could stand in court and Linux mainatners good will
[09:15:23] <ptx0> the spirit of the license matters more than the contents, at times.
[09:15:33] <ptx0> both want the same goals
[09:17:25] <CompanionCube> +1
[09:18:42] <madwizard> ptx0: Yeah, but Sun is dead, the intent is unclear depending on person that speaks and that many years in the past ppl memories can be confused anyway
[09:19:55] <madwizard> Anyway
[09:20:18] <madwizard> I'm just some small guy doing some small stuff
[09:20:35] <madwizard> Just hoping this won't escalate
[09:21:17] <CompanionCube> they can always reimplement in the SPL
[09:21:47] <CompanionCube> not like anyone has grounds to stop them. (Or do it in the SIMD code directly.)
[09:28:53] <madwizard> It's way above my head.
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[09:32:42] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] zfs should optionally send holds (#7513) comment by loli10K <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/issues/7513>
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[09:45:11] <ptx0> it'd be nice if copyright / license law were more like trademark law
[09:45:31] <ptx0> i.e. by allowing people to break the terms of your license you give up the right to litigate
[09:46:00] <ptx0> so, Linux wouldn't be able to sue OpenZFS devs for doing something that they've "allowed" NVIDIA to do
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[10:38:48] <madwizard> Wow. My code works. I'm surprised and elevated at the same time
[10:38:52] <madwizard> I can treat myself to coffee
[10:41:12] * ptx0 added a fan holder to the expansion slot that does not sit over the motherboard
[10:41:36] <ptx0> aimed it at the VRMs of the water cooled 1060 6GB and also the heatsink of my nbase-t card
[10:41:58] <ptx0> configured fancontrol to manage its speed based on GPU temp
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[11:01:14] <ptx0> DeHackEd: i'm seeing recv speeds at 453MiB/s now instead of the 119MiB/s or 40MiB/s (depends on dataset, as low as 13MiB/s)
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[13:14:29] <javashin> hello
[13:14:35] <javashin> good morning
[13:16:11] <javashin> how i import a pool in a directory with zpool import -? /mnt/zfs
[13:16:34] <javashin> note the ? i cant remember the options
[13:16:56] <javashin> and man zpool is not very useful
[13:20:47] <javashin> zpool import -o readonly=on -R /mnt/zfs root
[13:21:10] <javashin> is not working i cant see the files
[13:21:30] <javashin> im trying to mount a freebsd pool
[13:26:26] <javashin> zpool import -R /some/folder zroot
[13:26:33] <javashin> not working
[13:26:54] <javashin> i cant see the files or the size of the pool with df
[13:27:51] <javashin> and then zfs mount and nothing
[13:33:34] <javashin> zfs mount root
[13:33:34] <javashin> cannot mount 'root': no mountpoint set
[13:33:52] <javashin> zfs set mountpoint=/mnt/zfs root
[13:33:52] <javashin> internal error: out of memory
[13:34:02] <javashin> what im doing wrong >?
[13:36:53] <javashin> zfs list
[13:36:53] <javashin> root 2.79G 74.2G 2.79G none
[13:39:08] <elxa> javashin: man zpool -> use "/" to initiate search -> type "zpool import" to search -> press "n" to jump to next result
[13:39:39] <elxa> zpool import -R /mount/here your-pool-name
[13:39:43] <elxa> should do it afaik
[13:40:21] <elxa> javashin: try zfs list -r
[13:40:23] <FinalX> it will, but if it's a root pool it's likely that a bunch are set to mountpoint=legacy or canmount=noauto
[13:41:32] <javashin> internal error
[13:41:35] <elxa> zfs set mountpoint failing with oom doesn't sound good :D
[13:41:40] <javashin> yes
[13:41:50] <javashin> this is weird
[13:43:25] <elxa> maybe you have an older zfs (kernel and/or userspace) build or some version mismatch causing trouble
[13:44:26] <javashin> im using the last version
[13:44:33] <javashin> and the kernel 4.20
[13:44:43] <javashin> exec uname -a
[13:44:56] <javashin> 4.20.0
[13:45:08] <elxa> I am still on 4.18.12-1.el7.elrepo.x86_64 using centos 7
[13:45:16] <elxa> got no problems
[13:45:22] <javashin> and zfs 0.7.12
[13:45:41] <javashin> im on archlinux
[13:45:54] <javashin> let me remove the modules
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[13:46:12] <elxa> out of memory sounds like the issue could be outside of zfs?
[13:46:28] <FinalX> dedup turned on on the pool and not enough memory to store the entire ddt?
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[13:46:33] <FinalX> or a dataset, rather
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[13:49:50] <javashin> well im reinstalling the modules to see
[14:00:54] <javashin> nope that dont work
[14:01:37] <javashin> out of mem
[14:01:41] <javashin> all the time
[14:02:20] <javashin> well looks like i need to install freebsd on ufs
[14:02:48] <javashin> but let me try creating a pool here on linux to seee if zfs works
[14:13:19] <FinalX> same machine? or a machine with actually less ram?
[14:13:47] <javashin> well zfs works fine
[14:14:05] <javashin> i created a new pool and set mountpoint work
[14:14:16] <javashin> no out of mem error
[14:14:27] <javashin> its freebsd the problem
[14:14:52] <javashin> thanks for everything now let me install with ufs
[14:15:18] <javashin> then rebuild my linux kernel with ufs write support
[14:15:55] <javashin> because the zfs on freebsd 12 are not compatible anymore with zfsonlinux
[14:16:06] <javashin> cannot write on it
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[14:23:49] <gchristensen> "As it stands, v5.0 removes the ability from non-GPL modules to use the FPU or SIMD instructions" how is this true, surely FPU and SIMD instructions don't have to go through the kernel
[14:36:05] <bunder> as i understand it, they removed the easy way to use them
[14:36:48] <bunder> so to get around it we would have to implement our own module to run the instructions
[14:38:29] <bunder> something like a spl-fpu.c
[14:39:11] <gchristensen> right
[14:39:23] <gchristensen> annoying but not catastrophic
[14:41:11] <bunder> well it is until someone writes that code, and linux doesn't scream that we copied their code
[14:49:02] <bunder> i could be wrong, i'm not sure how to directly run asm on linux
[14:50:19] <gchristensen> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/61341/is-there-a-way-to-insert-assembly-code-into-c it isn't uncommon
[14:52:56] <bunder> is that straight c though or do we need that __asm__ from linux
[14:53:54] <gchristensen> that is a compiler directive
[14:55:20] <gchristensen> you can definitely write and run your own assembly. http://cs.lmu.edu/~ray/notes/nasmtutorial/
[14:56:12] <bunder> my assembly knowledge is 6502/z80/68000 etc, when you just wrote instructions to a rom chip and run it heh
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[15:12:54] <rjvbb> I'm also stymied. If the GPL can do more than make it unlawful to distribute binaries (that use GPL functions in non-GPL code) then it's really evil and should be banned
[15:13:56] <rjvbb> How would it even work, you'd need a compiler that understands licenses blurbs and checks if nothing naughty is being done?
[15:15:15] <bunder> throw stallman into the pit of fire :P
[15:15:49] <gchristensen> it isn't unlawful, it is a license violation. and, licenses don't care about technology it is about people and their actions
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[15:16:29] <rjvbb> if a license violation isn't unlawful then why would you care?
[15:17:08] <bunder> software licenses in open source suck. if its truly open we should be able to do whatever we want
[15:17:17] <rjvbb> amen to that
[15:17:19] <gchristensen> ah maybe it is unlawful -- not criminal
[15:17:36] <rjvbb> yep, fine line between those
[15:18:02] <rjvbb> (the price usually not so much)
[15:18:22] <rjvbb> bunder: amen to that, but you still wouldn't be able to write to ROM chips ;)
[15:18:37] <bunder> nobody went to jail over oracle v google, only money exchanged hands
[15:20:18] <gchristensen> how the opinion of OSS and what "free" means has changed over time is interesting
[15:20:39] <bunder> rjvbb: i'd like to see them stop me https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Universal-USB-Programmer-EEPROM-Flash-SPI-BIOS-24-25-BR90-93-SP8-A/121805465008
[15:21:16] <rjvbb> That's not ROM, that's EPROM
[15:21:23] <bunder> close enough
[15:22:33] <rjvbb> the ROMs in the system you evoked where not like that, you just wrote to the RAM page into which they were copied.
[15:23:55] <rjvbb> 68k architecture put the signal jump table at address 0 if memory serves me well, and you could do all kinds of nasty tricks to the MacOS by replacing function pointers to point to your own code instead of to ROM
[15:24:22] <rjvbb> `sm 0 A9F4` followed by `g 0`, anyone? :)
[15:24:29] <bunder> they still work though, they're pin compatible and as long as you don't stick 12v on the program pin its always in the chip
[15:25:14] <bunder> if all we had was mask rom i doubt we'd be anywhere near where we are today in computing
[15:25:38] <bunder> mask roms are too expensive to manufacture
[15:25:56] <bunder> and too expensive to replace if you have bad code
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[16:08:43] <rjvbb> anyway, about the license issue: wouldn't it be possible to do what Qt does, give a choice which license to apply? They have their own commercial license but you can also chose to use the same code under LGPG3 (used to be LGPL2).
[16:09:16] <gchristensen> it is possible to dual-license yes
[16:09:56] <rjvbb> copyright/intellectual property law is really annoying and something for the experts but I trust the Qt Company to have had this sorted out
[16:10:37] <gchristensen> there is no debate, copyright holders can license their code to whoever they want with whatever terms they want
[16:10:55] <rjvbb> up to the bit where "sure you can reuse (include) our code in your own but take it from the LGPL2 version - even if it's exactly the same as the relicensed version"
[16:11:04] <gchristensen> "copyright holders" being the annoying part
[16:11:10] <rjvbb> what I figured
[16:11:46] <gchristensen> dual-licensing the linux kernel or ZFSoL at this point is probably impossible, given the # of contributors (ie: copyright holders)
[16:13:12] <rjvbb> for the kernel it could have been simple; just maintain the current license (but then who'd use the GPL3 option)
[16:14:13] <rjvbb> doesn't GPL have the notion of exceptions?
[16:15:14] <rjvbb> ZFS cannot be the only kmod that's concerned here
[16:18:06] <rjvbb> anyway, I'm going to continue to assume that I'm not concerned as long I install via spl-dkms and zfs-dkms packages which build the kmods locally.
[16:19:19] <bunder> in theory you should be fine but as long as we can keep using what apis we have left
[16:19:39] <bunder> hopefully greg doesn't go on a warpath and remove them all in one fell swoop
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[16:21:31] <bunder> a lot of the kernel specific changes we've had to do lately are from renaming or moving apis around, vs removing them completely
[16:23:29] <rjvbb> well, the talk is about putting APIs under a difference license, no? Removing them altogether would affect everyone, also code with a sanctioned license...
[16:24:12] <bunder> the effect is the same from our pov, i think in one of the ml mails they said nobody else was using it
[16:25:49] <rjvbb> Hmmm, if anything is under risk of being removed, why not copy it into SPL which is already GPL'ed?
[16:26:04] <bunder> and going dual license would have the same problems as changing the license to gpl, trying to ask everybody and hoping they agree
[16:26:14] <bunder> oracle probably won't thats for sure
[16:27:15] <bunder> and if anyone has passed away, that might be difficult too
[16:28:19] <rjvbb> that depends on how you formulate your request ;)
[16:29:22] <bunder> i'm not even sure if gpl+cddl is enough to satisfy linux
[16:29:24] <rjvbb> either way, I only use ZoL release versions, and never upgrade to a kernel where ZoL isn't known to work
[16:29:35] <bunder> they might be okay with gpl+bsd or something
[16:29:55] <rjvbb> the idea with dual-license is that you pick one or the other
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[16:31:57] <rjvbb> That's how Qt's deal works at least (but of course there you sign an actual contract paid with actual money to get out from under the GPL)
[16:33:39] <rjvbb> oh well, enough with the keyboard, there's a fingerboard that's calling to me :)
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[16:39:05] <bunder> in our case who would pay who there, i can't see linux giving us money or vice versa
[16:40:18] <bunder> s/us/openzfs rather
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[18:15:19] <rjvb> I wasn't assuming that the alternate license would have to be paying in order to make it a true "either,or alternative"
[18:16:50] <PMT> We'd still need to get Oracle and all the contributors to OpenZFS to sign off on it, regardless of what the other license would be, and that's going to happen right after the second blizzard in hell
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[19:31:48] <cirdan> interesting archive: https://lists.gt.net/linux/kernel/225609?do=post_view_threaded
[19:32:32] <cirdan> "Incidentally, an argument can be made that using EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL actually renders your code incompatible with the GPL, insofar as it violates the "additional restriction" clause."
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[19:40:47] <rjvb> It's clear (why) I don't make big bucks in this business. Not evil enough O:-)
[19:43:39] <rjvb> so how does this intersect with the intention of using ZoL as upstream (in *BSD and OpenZFS-on-osx, IIRC)?
[19:48:21] <cirdan> it doesn't
[19:51:26] <Freeaqingme> rjvb: it was designed to be incompatible with GPL. *BSD and the os x kernel are not GPL licensed, and their licenses are in fact compatible with the zfs license
[19:53:20] <rjvb> and both have their own SPL implementation so whether or not ZoL/SPL is relicensed to GPL3 is irrelevant?
[19:54:14] <CompanionCube> isn't ZoL already the upstream for the macOS port?
[19:54:28] <rjvb> not that I know, no
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[19:55:24] <rjvb> I think it was partly and/or for a certain time, but the reason for current import incompatibilities is that they're waiting on OpenZFS to incorporate things already in ZoL, for instance
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[19:56:56] <rjvb> designing something to be incompatible with the GPL is either just as evil as the GPL it self, or stupid to a similar extent.... I mean, it's so simple to be incompatible without doing it by design...
[19:57:29] <rjvb> unless of course you really meant to say that GPL is compatible only by itself so picking another license means incompatibility by design? :-/
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[20:03:41] <cirdan> thre's supposed to be sun emails expecting zfs to be mainlined when it was open sourced
[20:05:16] <rjvb> mainlined? That can mean anything...
[20:05:24] <cirdan> no
[20:05:39] <cirdan> it means copied into the mainline kernel source tree
[20:06:46] <rjvb> Linux? Mac (remember the talk with Apple)? *BSD? OpenIndiana or however that's called?
[20:14:04] <PMT> rjvb: OSX does get features from ZoL before most other ports.
[20:14:31] <PMT> rjvb: illumos is where the code came _from_, so
[20:14:48] <PMT> cirdan: "supposed to be"?
[20:15:15] <PMT> I don't buy it. People were well aware that the CDDL and GPL didn't play nice in the sandbox long before Oracle bought Sun.
[20:21:25] <PMT> The only two ways I could see ZoL as an upstream for FBSD/OSX being a problem would be if ZoL is legally considered a derived work of the Linux kernel (maybe), or if they relicensed to GPLv3 (almost definitely). I know FBSD is trying to remove all GPL components from the base system, so I doubt the kernel would take GPL bits for love or money.
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[20:40:23] <ptx0> dual licensing*
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[22:01:21] <rjvbb> hmm, derived work could fly for ZoL/SPL which is used only on Linux. The parts in ZFS itself that are specific to the Linux kernel are not going to be used anywhere else
[22:02:04] <rjvbb> I don't see how anything else used in ZFS (and that exists in all other compatible kernels) can make it a linux-kernel-derived work
[22:04:35] <rjvbb> relicensing to GPL3 shouldn't be an issue on Mac where ZFS is a 3rd party project. It might prevent it from being in the App Store, but I doubt it'd be accepted for other reasons already
[22:06:35] <rjvbb> what kind of timeline are we talking about anyway, before linux v5 becomes unavoidable?
[22:07:44] <gchristensen> I wouldn't worry about it, rjvbb. I feel quite confident there will be a solution, and ZFSoL works fine on linux 5.x.
[22:27:03] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] ztest: scrub ddt repair (#8270) new review comment by Matthew Ahrens <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/pull/8270#pullrequestreview-191952338>
[22:28:54] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] ztest: split block reconstruction (#8271) new review comment by Matthew Ahrens <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/pull/8271#pullrequestreview-191952497>
[22:30:43] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] ztest: scrub verification (#8269) comment by Matthew Ahrens <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/issues/8269>
[22:30:54] <cirdan> rjvbb: it can't
[22:31:00] <cirdan> see andrewFS and linnux
[22:31:03] <cirdan> iirc
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[22:45:35] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] ZVOLs should not be allowed to have children (#8181) new review comment by Matthew Ahrens <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/pull/8181#discussion_r247327098>
[22:52:53] <rjvbb> cirdan, what's the "it" that cannot?
[22:55:03] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] ZVOLs should not be allowed to have children (#8181) new review comment by loli10K <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/pull/8181#discussion_r247327309>
[23:04:24] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] Minor spelling corrections (#8272) comment by Giuseppe Di Natale <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/issues/8272>
[23:08:01] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] ZVOLs should not be allowed to have children (#8181) new review comment by Matthew Ahrens <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/pull/8181#discussion_r247327597>
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[23:16:10] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] "Too many levels of symbolic links" when "cd"ing to snapshot subdir (#816) comment by Kyle Brown <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/issues/816#issuecomment-453785013>
[23:21:38] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] ZVOLs should not be allowed to have children (#8181) new review comment by loli10K <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/pull/8181#discussion_r247327879>
[23:24:47] <bunder> i think that was in reference to "derived work"
[23:25:07] <bunder> but iirc andrew fs was a special exception according to linus
[23:25:33] <bunder> somehow i doubt we'll get the same treatment after all these years
[23:35:48] <rjvb> you're probably right (about the "it")
[23:36:42] <rjvb> I had to look up andrew fs, according to the Wikipedia entry there is a specific Linux implementation, which at the time of writing wasn't complete
[23:37:41] <rjvb> i.e. probably not some kind of fork off OpenAFS, that makes it a bit easier to consider it a derived work. I guess...
[23:44:31] <bunder> i think it came from a statement that all modules are a derived work
[23:44:47] <bunder> not at home so i can't go searching my web history
[23:45:33] <bunder> the problem there being that a derived work should also be gpl iirc
[23:46:33] <zfs> [zfsonlinux/zfs] ZVOLs should not be allowed to have children (#8181) new review comment by Matthew Ahrens <https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/pull/8181#discussion_r247328408>
[23:48:44] <PMT> AFS has a weird history
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[23:58:17] <rjvb> this may be naive, but I guess there are parts in ZoL (aside SPL) that are specific to the linux kernel, and parts that are shared with OpenZFS{,-on-osx}?
[23:58:38] <bunder> wiki isn't clear whether the afs in the kernel is openafs or a port of another implementation
[23:59:02] <rjvb> I also guess those linux-specific parts are (C) the-ZoL-team
[23:59:28] <bunder> afaik spl is all llnl
[23:59:50] <bunder> everything else is the usual sun/oracle/llnl/delphix/etc/etc/etc
[23:59:56] <rjvb> what if you put those in their own module (library, whatever) and relicense that as required?
[23:59:58] <bunder> whoever touched the file
   January 12, 2019  
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