February 22, 2018 
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February 22, 2018 [00:09:03] *** BearishMushroom <BearishMushroom!~BearishMu@82-209-154-59.cust.bredband2.com> has joined ##vulkan[00:18:55] *** random_james is now known as random_james_awy[00:30:39] *** threenuc <threenuc!~threenuc@88.156.163.16> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)[00:51:21] *** ciaala <ciaala!~crypt@101.180.0.85.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[01:21:39] *** derhass <derhass!~derhass@dslb-094-222-155-209.094.222.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[01:24:47] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-178-171-7.range86-178.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[01:24:48] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mzgy0p2f49u7u.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[01:46:02] *** slime <slime!~slime73@24.215.81.93> has quit IRC (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)[01:52:30] *** MrFlibble <MrFlibble!MrFlibble@2.216.215.168> has quit IRC (Quit: MrFlibble)[02:27:18] *** halbeno <halbeno!~halbeno@node-1w7jra22dpc6yrvo9wam83mu0.ipv6.telus.net> has joined ##vulkan[02:31:26] *** salek_ <salek_!~salek@91-155-9-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has joined ##vulkan[02:32:12] *** salek_ <salek_!~salek@91-155-9-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[02:32:22] *** Salek <Salek!~salek@91-155-9-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[02:34:02] *** salek_ <salek_!~salek@91-155-9-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has joined ##vulkan[02:35:55] *** BearishMushroom <BearishMushroom!~BearishMu@82-209-154-59.cust.bredband2.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[02:38:41] *** salek_ <salek_!~salek@91-155-9-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[02:38:57] *** Salek <Salek!~salek@91-155-9-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has joined ##vulkan[02:42:01] *** Andrej1 <Andrej1!~Andrej@86.61.111.79> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[02:56:24] *** Berserker66 <Berserker66!~Fabian_Di@dslb-088-065-161-171.088.065.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has left ##vulkan[03:48:56] *** Nilesh_ <Nilesh_!uid116340@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bezplnzfumllgjsq> has joined ##vulkan[04:02:14] *** fgarnier <fgarnier!~tywin@2001:41d0:e:20f::1> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[04:03:45] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-178-171-7.range86-178.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[04:16:36] *** ipe <ipe!~ipe@91-156-244-112.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[04:33:05] *** Avian-Anathema <Avian-Anathema!~Garret@165.227.217.42> has quit IRC (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-876-42939c9 - https://znc.in)[04:34:52] *** Avian-Anathema <Avian-Anathema!~Garret@165.227.217.42> has joined ##vulkan[04:43:04] *** kasumi-owari <kasumi-owari!~kasumi-ow@ftth-213-233-237-007.solcon.nl> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[04:43:36] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-178-171-7.range86-178.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[04:45:38] *** kasumi-owari <kasumi-owari!~kasumi-ow@ftth-213-233-237-007.solcon.nl> has joined ##vulkan[05:12:44] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[05:27:03] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has joined ##vulkan[05:38:24] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[05:50:18] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-178-171-7.range86-178.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[06:07:47] *** Nilesh_ <Nilesh_!uid116340@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bezplnzfumllgjsq> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[06:10:48] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has joined ##vulkan[06:18:52] *** tambre <tambre!~tambre@c0f4-6047-a4f4-494a-ab80-8a0a-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has joined ##vulkan[06:29:22] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[06:36:09] *** glYoda <glYoda!~MTLYoda@c-73-25-27-206.hsd1.or.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[06:38:58] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has joined ##vulkan[06:58:14] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d108-180-237-219.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[07:01:01] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d108-180-237-219.bchsia.telus.net> has joined ##vulkan[07:06:31] *** nsf <nsf!~nsf@jiss.convex.ru> has joined ##vulkan[07:07:08] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[07:09:44] *** glima <glima!~glima@enlightenment/developer/glima> has joined ##vulkan[07:10:28] <glima> anyone with an nvidia GPU and recent drivers willing to run a vulkan cts test for me, please?[07:21:21] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mzgy0p2f49u7u.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[07:23:19] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has joined ##vulkan[07:25:15] *** ville <ville!~ville@178-55-61-138.bb.dnainternet.fi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[07:25:46] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mzgy0p2f49u7u.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[07:29:52] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[07:30:40] *** Borkr <Borkr!~Borkr@mail.seaonics.com> has joined ##vulkan[07:56:55] *** tambry <tambry!~tambre@0ab1-316b-0229-5933-ab80-8a0a-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has joined ##vulkan[07:58:00] *** tambre2 <tambre2!~tambre@206-195-196-88.dyn.estpak.ee> has joined ##vulkan[08:00:37] *** tambre <tambre!~tambre@c0f4-6047-a4f4-494a-ab80-8a0a-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[08:02:22] *** tambry <tambry!~tambre@0ab1-316b-0229-5933-ab80-8a0a-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[08:25:25] *** ravior <ravior!~crapitea@38.132.111.173> has joined ##vulkan[08:34:45] *** goiko_ <goiko_!~goiko@p5DEB78B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[08:34:57] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@unaffiliated/goiko> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[08:47:57] *** goiko__ <goiko__!~goiko@p5DEB78F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[08:48:05] *** goiko_ <goiko_!~goiko@p5DEB78B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[10:00:38] *** Biolunar <Biolunar!Biolunar@p5B148076.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[10:06:23] *** glYoda <glYoda!~MTLYoda@c-73-25-27-206.hsd1.or.comcast.net> has joined ##vulkan[10:10:53] *** Sairon <Sairon!~Sairon@185.57.104.138> has joined ##vulkan[10:26:09] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d108-180-237-219.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Just Monica.)[10:33:01] *** threenuc <threenuc!~threenuc@88.156.163.16> has joined ##vulkan[10:37:38] *** martm <martm!~bee@23b0-07dd-6bd6-ddc4-4980-8309-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has joined ##vulkan[10:52:49] *** Biolunar <Biolunar!Biolunar@p5B148076.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[10:55:48] *** martm <martm!~bee@23b0-07dd-6bd6-ddc4-4980-8309-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[11:07:40] *** martm <martm!~bee@80e8-189d-381a-6516-4980-8309-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has joined ##vulkan[11:08:52] *** martm <martm!~bee@80e8-189d-381a-6516-4980-8309-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[11:13:08] *** goiko__ <goiko__!~goiko@p5DEB78F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Quit: ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿ O'RLY? Bye!)[11:13:32] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@p5DEB78F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[11:13:32] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@p5DEB78F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Changing host)[11:13:32] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@unaffiliated/goiko> has joined ##vulkan[11:24:01] *** threenuc <threenuc!~threenuc@88.156.163.16> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[11:24:59] *** fcvarela <fcvarela!~fcvarela@cpc110679-lewi19-2-0-cust536.2-4.cable.virginm.net> has joined ##vulkan[11:25:58] *** fcvarela <fcvarela!~fcvarela@cpc110679-lewi19-2-0-cust536.2-4.cable.virginm.net> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[11:37:59] *** ville <ville!~ville@37-136-113-16.rev.dnainternet.fi> has joined ##vulkan[11:46:23] *** threenuc <threenuc!~threenuc@88.156.163.16> has joined ##vulkan[11:47:34] *** Andrej1 <Andrej1!~Andrej@BSN-143-132-73.dynamic.siol.net> has joined ##vulkan[11:49:43] *** hanna <hanna!~haasn@HSI-KBW-149-172-171-181.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[11:49:54] *** hanna` <hanna`!~haasn@HSI-KBW-149-172-171-181.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de> has joined ##vulkan[11:52:28] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-178-171-7.range86-178.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Bye!)[13:57:13] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@p5DEB78F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[13:57:13] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@p5DEB78F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Changing host)[13:57:13] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@unaffiliated/goiko> has joined ##vulkan[14:00:52] *** marijnfs <marijnfs!~smuxi@wnavab-n2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> has joined ##vulkan[14:13:12] *** Berserker66 <Berserker66!~Fabian_Di@dslb-088-065-161-171.088.065.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined ##vulkan[14:15:17] *** marijnfs <marijnfs!~smuxi@wnavab-n2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[14:17:23] *** joakimds_ <joakimds_!uid154127@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xwkwuuwdwmhxevgb> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[14:17:35] *** joakimds_ <joakimds_!uid154127@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mifqzyzyouotkmvc> has joined ##vulkan[14:34:37] <Sairon> It would seem if the number of viewports change all pipelines needs to be recreated?[14:35:50] <baldurk> yes the number of viewports must be specified at pipeline create time even if the dimensions are dynamic[14:36:23] <ratchetfreak> so make sure you don't have to change that is possible[14:38:17] *** ipe <ipe!~ipe@91-156-244-112.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has joined ##vulkan[14:38:53] <Sairon> Sadly I do, since our game has local co-op, and people can join / leave at any point :\[14:43:42] <Sairon> I guess the approach then is to just create up to a pre determined cap and simply ignore the ones which aren't currently in use?[14:43:56] <ratchetfreak> at least that is rare enough and people expect a short pauze that you can take the hitch[14:46:29] <exDM69_> Sairon: is there something preventing you from setting the number of viewports to the max number of splitscreens?[14:46:31] <ratchetfreak> I mean people expect things to take a bit to get ready for player 2 to get going, you can probable use an animation to hide the delay in creation even[14:46:33] <Sairon> Yeah, it took about 100ms with the previous graphics API as well, more of a design challenge[14:47:06] <exDM69_> also, you could just render each split independently of each other[14:47:17] <exDM69_> reusing the same pipeline with different framebuffers[14:47:20] <Sairon> exDM69_: It's kind of stupid, but we actually support "unlimited" number of splits hehe[14:47:30] <ratchetfreak> don't forget that you can do pipeline creation in background thread[14:47:35] <Sairon> Tried playing 16 player local co-op[14:47:52] <exDM69_> Sairon: 16 is a reasonable max number, isn't it?[14:48:03] <Sairon> Yeah[14:48:40] <Yaniel> what's the reasoning behind flipping y in device coordinates compared to all other APIs?[14:48:51] <baldurk> Yaniel: "oops"[14:49:33] <exDM69_> Sairon: this doesn't sound like a big issue to me[14:49:39] <exDM69_> I'm sure you can come up with a reasonable solution[14:51:14] <ratchetfreak> I don't really see the problem with on-demand creation here as long as it's not on the main thread[14:51:24] <Yaniel> baldurk: I... see[14:52:26] <Sairon> Yeah, I'll probably need to do some rethinking. In vulkan more or less everything seems to be tied to the graphics pipeline, while other APIs I've used have a lot loser coupling between device states, buffers & programs[14:53:13] <baldurk> in practice that's probably because the API is hiding some on-demand work from you that you were paying for without knowing it[14:53:18] *** doppioslash <doppioslash!sid76291@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gsnywahbgpxlujdi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[14:54:48] <Sairon> Might be the case, however libGCM was pretty damn low level & still had a lot of less coupling in this regard[14:55:15] <exDM69_> well it waas also single vendor so it had lots of more freedom[14:55:16] <baldurk> yeh hardware specific APIs have the advantage that they expose just as much coupling as necessary, and no more[14:55:41] *** doppioslash <doppioslash!sid76291@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pfoowsierejqjuvp> has joined ##vulkan[14:56:00] <baldurk> assuming you need multiple viewports for multi-cast or selection or something, you could always split it hierarchically - make the pipelines with some reasonable average value, like 2 or 4, and then if you end up with more viewports than that do a loop over the whole thing for each set of 2/4 up to 16 or above[14:58:02] *** Kaetemi <Kaetemi!sid109773@pdpc/supporter/base/kaetemi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[14:58:14] *** Kaetemi <Kaetemi!sid109773@pdpc/supporter/base/kaetemi> has joined ##vulkan[14:58:20] *** joakimds_ <joakimds_!uid154127@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mifqzyzyouotkmvc> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[14:58:28] *** joakimds_ <joakimds_!uid154127@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fvknxtqitwvhvspe> has joined ##vulkan[15:02:50] *** teej <teej!uid154177@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jgakgcxqzugheayc> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[15:04:18] *** marijnfs <marijnfs!~smuxi@2a01:c23:c416:8c00:a2b7:7b61:4fb8:c1f0> has joined ##vulkan[15:05:48] *** teej <teej!uid154177@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-luvqohekwqevxerb> has joined ##vulkan[15:08:49] *** tambry <tambry!~tambre@fd2b-8793-6fe7-61d7-ab80-8a0a-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has joined ##vulkan[15:12:23] *** hampusw <hampusw!~Hampus@37.139.156.40> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[15:12:25] <Sairon> I'll go with recreating I think, since scissor regions suffers from the same problem. Overall I can't help but think that the driver will have to do an absolute shitton of redundant device state changes though since the graphics pipeline usually will contain a ton of duplicate data between programs[15:12:47] *** tambre2 <tambre2!~tambre@206-195-196-88.dyn.estpak.ee> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[15:13:01] <ratchetfreak> that's why there is a parameter to tell the driver that 2 pipelines are related[15:14:35] *** hampusw <hampusw!~Hampus@37.139.156.40> has joined ##vulkan[15:17:10] <Sairon> Ah, I'll need to read up on that[15:18:26] <ratchetfreak> there is a field in the create struct[15:18:39] <ratchetfreak> the basePipeline(Index/Handle)[15:18:53] <ratchetfreak> the index is for when creating them all at the same time[15:19:47] *** Borkr <Borkr!~Borkr@mail.seaonics.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[15:34:46] *** echotangoecho <echotangoecho!~echotango@92-108-127-60.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl> has joined ##vulkan[15:36:27] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has joined ##vulkan[15:47:20] *** borkr <borkr!~borkr@static130-244.mimer.net> has joined ##vulkan[15:54:22] *** neure <neure!~tsuoranta@62.209.167.43> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[15:57:24] *** marijnfs <marijnfs!~smuxi@2a01:c23:c416:8c00:a2b7:7b61:4fb8:c1f0> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[16:16:02] *** hampusw <hampusw!~Hampus@37.139.156.40> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[16:31:43] *** ImQ009 <ImQ009!~ImQ009@unaffiliated/imq009> has joined ##vulkan[16:38:41] *** ville <ville!~ville@188-67-99-146.bb.dnainternet.fi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)[16:50:23] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-176-242-213.range86-176.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[16:58:52] *** BearishMushroom <BearishMushroom!~BearishMu@82-209-154-59.cust.bredband2.com> has joined ##vulkan[17:04:04] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[17:09:57] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has joined ##vulkan[17:12:44] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mo56rkk6i6rq5.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[17:13:44] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mo56rkk6i6rq5.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[17:14:03] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mo56rkk6i6rq5.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[17:14:29] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mo56rkk6i6rq5.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[17:14:48] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mo56rkk6i6rq5.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[17:14:49] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-176-242-213.range86-176.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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So there is room for a vulkan2 IMHO.[20:02:24] <cheako> Uploading over 4G LTE is a pain.[20:03:54] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-176-242-213.range86-176.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[20:06:45] *** ratchet_freak <ratchet_freak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mzgy0p2f49u7u.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[20:07:10] *** ratchet_freak <ratchet_freak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mzgy0p2f49u7u.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[20:08:50] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@mobile-107-77-160-37.mobile.att.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[20:09:00] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@mobile-107-77-160-49.mobile.att.net> has joined ##vulkan[20:15:01] <ZeroWalker> what does uploading over 4G LTE has to do with a graphics api;o?[20:21:33] <cheako> I'm uploading renderdoc to launchpad, but yeah it was an off-topic remark.[20:27:26] <chrisf> cheako: what specifically do you think could do with improvement?[20:29:54] *** LanDi <LanDi!~landi@191.35.94.54> has joined ##vulkan[20:31:22] *** derhass <derhass!~derhass@dslb-094-222-155-209.094.222.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined ##vulkan[20:31:44] <cheako> chrisf: Some of the sub-structures have sType and others don't and in some cases it seems irrelevant to have sub-structures at all, like for piplines.[20:33:31] <chrisf> there should be stype/pnext everywhere it makes sense to tack on an extension[20:33:46] <ratchet_freak> if a new stage gets invented (god forbid) a extension struct will be needed for create pipeline[20:36:23] <Bl4ckb0ne> https://www.packtpub.com/packt/offers/free-learning[20:36:34] <Bl4ckb0ne> today's free book is learning vulkan[20:36:50] <cheako> chrisf: I agree, but see VkAttachmentDescription[20:37:17] <baldurk> there is a pNext/sType in the parent VkRenderPassCreateInfo[20:37:59] <chrisf> cheako: it makes more sense to chain on once higher up the tree (possibly containing an array of new stuff), rather than chain on N structures near the leaves[20:38:09] <cheako> VkGraphicsPipelineCreateInfo and it's sub-structures all have pNext/sType, but ask yourself do we really need this to be nested?[20:39:04] <chrisf> VkGraphicsPipelineCreateInfo is probably too much[20:40:00] <cheako> I guess if ur counting of being able to use pNext then there is a slight need for these sub-structures, but it might be better to have an pNext<Thing> entry.[20:40:40] <chrisf> this seems a crappy trivial thing to want to rev the major version over though[20:40:58] <ratchet_freak> but there are some structures that have absolutely no need for snext/pnext like the extends[20:43:08] <cheako> It's just inconsistent when some structures don't take a sType, and in this regard pNext is irrelevant. Though adding these to where they are missing would not break the existing API.[20:43:33] <baldurk> that would definitely be a breaking change because it would be ABI incompatible[20:43:33] <chrisf> sType is only there so that you can walk pNext chains and see what you've actually got[20:44:21] <ratchet_freak> aka only structs with pnext need a stype[20:44:28] <chrisf> trying to consider them separately doesnt make a lot of sense[20:44:29] <cheako> That may be true, but it becomes a habit to want to set the sType.[20:56:33] *** LanDi <LanDi!~landi@191.35.94.54> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[20:58:14] <ZeroWalker> how flexible would you guys say vulkan is compared to opengl. I know opengl is mentioned a lot in emulators cause it's flexible and can hence be used to mimic a lot of gpu functions. Is vulkan even better, or is it similar or maybe worse in that context?[21:00:31] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@mobile-107-77-160-49.mobile.att.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)[21:01:29] <ratchet_freak> most features of opengl can be emulated on vulkan[21:01:49] <ratchet_freak> there's only a few that can't but extensions will bridge that gap soon enough[21:05:42] *** TTimo_ is now known as TTimo[21:08:09] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@mobile-107-77-160-53.mobile.att.net> has joined ##vulkan[21:26:13] <ZeroWalker> well i meant like, an n64 emulator[21:26:17] <ZeroWalker> not emulating the api functions[21:26:48] <ZeroWalker> like opengl often comes up as being a good thing as it supports a ton of things thanks to the shaders and whatnot, so you can mimic a lot of the actual hardware pretty close[21:26:58] <ZeroWalker> and i wondered if vulkan makes that even better as it's lower level[21:27:16] <ZeroWalker> but it might not make a difference perhaps, not sure where vulkan shines and where it doesn't[21:28:06] <ratchet_freak> vulkan shines in preempting a lot of driver heuristics by making the one with the context do the work[21:29:23] <ZeroWalker> making the one with the context do the work?[21:29:44] <ZeroWalker> you mean setting it up precisely as you want it, rather than having the driver guess it's way[21:29:51] <ratchet_freak> opengl drivers need to speculate a lot on what the application is trying to do[21:30:32] <ZeroWalker> ah[21:30:52] <ZeroWalker> not sure if you have followed any of my "work" in the opengl channel[21:31:12] <ratchet_freak> I lurk in there but I tend to ignore it half the time[21:31:15] <ZeroWalker> but wonder if vulkan would be different in the things i do, or if it would be extremely similar[21:31:21] <ZeroWalker> i guess i was in that half;([21:31:22] <chrisf> ZeroWalker: i suggest you sit down with a copy of the vulkan spec and perhaps some tutorial material.[21:31:57] <ratchet_freak> vulkan also has shaders and the same shader stages[21:32:27] <ZeroWalker> i can barely work with opengl so it might sound like i am going to try stuff out, sadly that's not the case, unless it would be Very similar with what i am currently dooing, then it could be easy to convert and learn vulkan instead, otherwise it would be a pain[21:32:50] *** ciaala <ciaala!~crypt@101.180.0.85.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch> has joined ##vulkan[21:32:51] *** glYoda <glYoda!~MTLYoda@c-73-25-27-206.hsd1.or.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Quit: glYoda)[21:33:03] <ZeroWalker> i remember last time i tried using vulkan to just render. i had a billion lines of code just trying to get the damn device to start (not sure what it was called). IT was a ton of layers and whatnot, never succeeded;)[21:33:36] <chrisf> it's true that there's a bunch more typing involved in getting off the ground.[21:34:03] <ratchet_freak> but the difference between complex render and a simple render is a lot closer[21:34:09] <ratchet_freak> for better or for worse[21:34:22] <ZeroWalker> the weird thing with opengl is that (i think) it's very OS specific in how you actually create the context[21:34:34] <ZeroWalker> i think vulkan had that as well, but not sure if it was all that different[21:34:55] <ratchet_freak> no in vulkan there are exactly 2 os specific things you need to do[21:35:05] <ZeroWalker> which are?[21:35:33] <ratchet_freak> load the vulkan-1 dynamic loader lib and get the vkGetInstanceProcAddress function it exports[21:35:48] <ratchet_freak> the other is creating a Surface from your window handle[21:36:15] <ratchet_freak> everything else is portable[21:36:50] *** sla_ro|master <sla_ro|master!~sla.ro@78.96.209.89> has quit IRC ()[21:37:37] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d108-180-237-219.bchsia.telus.net> has joined ##vulkan[21:38:15] <ZeroWalker> ah, so you don't have to "glad" stuff?[21:40:36] <ratchet_freak> well functions stil need to be loaded from the loader (though it exports all core functions and the wsi related ones)[21:41:14] <ratchet_freak> other extension functions have to be loaded through vkGetInstanceProcAddress or vkGetDeviceProcAddress[21:41:37] <ZeroWalker> so you still need to hack around and use definitions that point towarsd the function you get via the GetProcAddress stuff?[21:42:05] <ZeroWalker> that's one of the things i dislike a lot, just feels so weird, but i guess it must be there, else it wouldn't be there xd[21:42:32] <ratchet_freak> that is not going to change unless we magically know every function we ever need to call for gpu accelerated rendering[21:52:52] <ZeroWalker> but i mean, headers and stuff include functions right, so you get them normally and they are called from whatever library[21:53:23] <ZeroWalker> shouldn't it be the same here, that they have got the header stuff with the functions for the versions[21:53:47] <chrisf> libvulkan does export all of the 1.0 symbols[21:54:28] <ZeroWalker> ah, that's great[21:54:37] <chrisf> ZeroWalker: the function pointer you get may not always be the same. if returned from GetDeviceProcAddress, it likely points straight into driver code.[21:54:39] <ZeroWalker> are there many non 1.0?[21:54:52] <ZeroWalker> pj[21:54:54] <ZeroWalker> oh*[21:55:02] <ZeroWalker> so wait, is there a "glad" for vulkan as well?[21:55:14] <ZeroWalker> or does it have something inbuilt or that khronos gives[21:58:03] <chrisf> there are various things that fill the same role as glad[21:58:28] <ZeroWalker> ah[21:59:04] <ZeroWalker> hmm, well if as mentioned before, it's very complex compare to opengl to even setup a simple renderer. Then it might not be a good idea for me to even try it out at my stage xd[22:00:04] *** slime <slime!~slime73@blk-215-81-93.eastlink.ca> has joined ##vulkan[22:06:02] *** Deluxe <Deluxe!~Deluxe@212.4.150.151> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[22:08:46] <ZeroWalker> this is the part were everone goes. Why would you use OpenGL, Vulkan is the shit![22:11:20] <chrisf> well, you're trading magic for work[22:12:16] *** Fats <Fats!fats@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/fats> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[22:12:50] <ZeroWalker> you mean, magic as in the opengl driver?[22:12:57] <ratchet_freak> yeah[22:13:13] <ratchet_freak> opengl has roots in synchronous immediate mode rendering[22:13:34] <ratchet_freak> however hardware evolved to async concurrent rendering[22:13:38] <ZeroWalker> true, in my application it's basically all 2D and is aimed to be really simple (cause i don't know shit)[22:13:49] <ratchet_freak> so there is a bit of a dichtomy there that the driver needs to bridge[22:13:51] <ZeroWalker> and in laymen terms that means;o[22:14:09] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@mobile-107-77-160-53.mobile.att.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)[22:14:19] <ratchet_freak> immediate mode rendering means commands of the form "draw this triangle"[22:14:54] <ratchet_freak> and back in ye olden days that's exactly what the api did as soon as you did the third glVertex call[22:15:34] <ratchet_freak> however when the implementation migrated to another chip batching renders became more efficient[22:15:40] *** Fats <Fats!fats@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/fats> has joined ##vulkan[22:16:21] <ratchet_freak> aka drawing a lot of triangles using a single call[22:19:46] <ratchet_freak> I've written a bit of a history on how opengl's vertex data got provided by the application: https://handmade.network/wiki/2821-the_history_of_opengl_vertex_data[22:20:11] <ZeroWalker> but isn't htat kinda fixed, we use batch and also shaders to make things more async?[22:20:22] <ZeroWalker> all i know is vulkan use command buffers or something[22:20:25] <ZeroWalker> will look at it[22:20:30] <ratchet_freak> it illustrates in part how the evolution from immediate to async happens happened[22:21:14] <ratchet_freak> opengl has a lot of global state that defines how stuff gets rendered[22:21:14] <ZeroWalker> oh, handmade hero, that was a long time ago, the thing that actually made me learn C/C++ in windows in a useful manner to begin with, it got it's own network now?[22:21:34] <ratchet_freak> yeah[22:22:40] <ZeroWalker> ah looking at it, i am currently using the second last i think[22:22:55] <ZeroWalker> as i don't remember using this things: glVertexAttribFormat[22:23:05] <ZeroWalker> (also using 3.3 so it make sense)[22:23:21] <ratchet_freak> yeah I very rarely see anyone using the separate attribute formats[22:23:34] <ZeroWalker> how does vulkan do those kind of steps?[22:24:05] <ratchet_freak> it uses the separate vertex format by fixing the format into the graphics pipeline[22:24:14] <ZeroWalker> i personally find the binding stuff kina weird in opengl, all those ids and separate functions to bind, buffer etc. But then again, i can't come up with anything better[22:24:14] <ratchet_freak> along with blending et al[22:24:40] <ratchet_freak> then in the command buffer you bind the pipeline and set the buffers to use and issue the draw[22:25:14] <ratchet_freak> opengl's method is a product of things getting tacked on on top of things already tacked on[22:25:18] <ZeroWalker> hmm, in a nutshell it sounds kinda similar to opengl, with the added command buffer issuing[22:25:33] <ZeroWalker> you lost me there[22:26:02] <ratchet_freak> and that if you need a different format you need to recreate the pipeline (which encode the program, blending, vertex format, ...)[22:26:20] <ratchet_freak> opengl's features all started out as extensions[22:26:25] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@2601:440:4100:4d1f::834> has joined ##vulkan[22:26:39] <ZeroWalker> ah yeah, isn't that how it works, like[22:26:44] <ZeroWalker> extension, arb, core[22:26:49] <ZeroWalker> or somtehing[22:26:52] <ratchet_freak> each of those needed to work in isolation and even if loaded could not affect normal operation[22:27:25] <ratchet_freak> so buffer binding came about so vertexAttribPointer could point into a buffer as well as into program memory[22:27:29] <cheako> ZeroWalker: I don't know if it's recommended but I've discovered that GLFW can provide os abstraction for window and surface creation.[22:27:47] <ratchet_freak> program 0 was the fixed function program[22:28:03] <ratchet_freak> cheako: so can sdl[22:28:12] <cheako> It can also help with selecting X11 or wayland, but as I understand it it's a compile time setting.[22:28:28] <cheako> ...glfw compile time.[22:28:48] <ZeroWalker> not a big fan of using libraries for getting abstractions, i often just get confused with those, i rather work with the, well wouldn't say bare metal or low level.. core functions i guess[22:29:28] <ratchet_freak> win32 is a crap api though[22:29:28] <ZeroWalker> not that i work better at it, it just makes me less confused to what does what, and what is opengl and what is an abstraction etc[22:29:37] <ZeroWalker> i kinda like it;([22:29:54] <cheako> That's fine, but I see a lot of tutorials making light of linux and insisting that X11 is the only option.[22:30:33] <ZeroWalker> well i know a ton of tutorials for windows always use GLFW, which is kinda weird, but it's often to just setup the thing i guess[22:30:48] <ZeroWalker> i already got my code ready to setup whatever context i want, so it's just copy paste[22:36:27] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d108-180-237-219.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[22:38:09] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d108-180-237-219.bchsia.telus.net> has joined ##vulkan[22:38:09] *** ImQ009 <ImQ009!~ImQ009@unaffiliated/imq009> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[22:38:40] *** jdashg <jdashg!~jdashg@corp-nat.fw1.untrust.mtv2.mozilla.net> has joined ##vulkan[22:41:17] *** nsf <nsf!~nsf@jiss.convex.ru> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1)[22:56:44] *** threenuc <threenuc!~threenuc@88.156.163.16> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[22:58:02] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-176-242-213.range86-176.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[23:01:25] *** threenuc <threenuc!~threenuc@88.156.163.16> has joined ##vulkan[23:03:17] *** merzbow <merzbow!~bat@rrcs-64-183-56-162.west.biz.rr.com> has joined ##vulkan[23:50:41] *** echotangoecho <echotangoecho!~echotango@92-108-127-60.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl> has joined ##vulkan[23:55:51] <cheako> I just got renderdoc running and it has the wrong color for my triangle, but it's the right colors if u just did a screen capture.[23:56:54] <cheako> My frag shader has vec4(0.0, 0, 0.059, 1.0) hardcoded.[23:57:55] <cheako> But the whole screen is set to the clear color, same problem I had a few days ago when someone said I needed renderdoc.[23:59:13] *** ville <ville!~ville@37-33-18-113.bb.dnainternet.fi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)