February 5, 2018 
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##vulkan[10:50:28] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466383CA468B4A4F9B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[10:51:18] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466583EEE35EE43BCC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)[10:51:47] *** ghishadow <ghishadow!~ghishadow@117.199.28.124> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)[10:53:48] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466918BD9FB3CC7CDA0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[10:54:44] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E0184662167D06FC0078327.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[10:56:44] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466E48096E020BF2700.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[10:56:48] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466383CA468B4A4F9B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[10:59:48] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E0184668C0034E8D234E5ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[10:59:48] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E0184662167D06FC0078327.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[11:02:19] *** marijnfs <marijnfs!~smuxi@wnavab-n2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> has joined ##vulkan[11:03:03] *** Sairon <Sairon!~Sairon@185.57.104.138> has joined ##vulkan[11:03:18] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466E48096E020BF2700.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[11:03:50] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E0184667070B9EB8E699267.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[11:06:18] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E0184668C0034E8D234E5ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[11:06:30] <marijnfs> Hey I'm trying to understand this example: https://github.com/ValveSoftware/openvr/blob/master/samples/hellovr_vulkan/hellovr_vulkan_main.cpp[11:06:58] <marijnfs> they create a seperate decriptor set for each model which includes a unique uniform buffer for mvp matrix for every model![11:07:13] <marijnfs> is there a nicer way to do that? to keep one decriptor buffer for that?[11:10:55] <sharpneli> You can make the MVP as UNIFORM_BUFFER_DYNAMIC and just offset into it[11:12:26] <baldurk> it's also quite possible that they're aiming for a readable and simple example that shows how to use vulkan with openvr, rather than trying to make the absolute most optimal vulkan code (which is sometimes a little silly in a toy example anyway)[11:14:03] <marijnfs> baldurk: yeah, but a lot of the steps in the code make it more confusing i think[11:14:21] <marijnfs> it's quite spaghetti code[11:14:40] <marijnfs> sharpneli: how does that work? Do you bind it once?[11:15:15] <marijnfs> I see one of sascha's examples, i'll check it out[11:17:14] <sharpneli> marijnfs: You rebind it to change the offset[11:19:23] <Deluxe> so you will still need separate descriptor sets for each view?[11:21:31] <sharpneli> Or a single one and just bind with offset[11:21:49] <sharpneli> However. In most cases you also want to change things like textures, and that requires a separate desc set.[11:22:16] <marijnfs> sharpneli: but basically you can't reuse the exact same buffer? because the drawing needs a seperate buffer for each object while drawing one frame?[11:28:03] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host81-153-204-241.range81-153.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[11:29:37] <Deluxe> sharpneli, you mean by using dynamic offsets when binding your descriptor set?[11:32:19] <sharpneli> Deluxe: Yes[11:32:42] <sharpneli> marijnfs: You can use the same buffer. But not reuse the same location. Just put MVP of one object first, followed by another etc.[11:34:09] <Deluxe> cool, I thought I won't be able to get rid of this DS duplication... thanks[11:34:10] <marijnfs> sharpneli: thanks, would you say this is the way to go in general? I'm trying to make a basis for my program and want a principled way to attack this[11:35:06] <sharpneli> Deluxe: You do need separate ones if things like textures change.[11:36:06] <sharpneli> marijnfs: Hard to say. We use bit similar system[11:36:16] *** pa <pa!~pa@unaffiliated/pa> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[11:36:40] <marijnfs> sharpneli: so when you have some interface where you want to add a new object, you resize this dynamic buffer?[11:37:06] <Deluxe> yea, but that should not be problem for VR i think. So this leaves me with duplications caused by 2 framebuffers[11:37:32] *** Biolunar <Biolunar!Biolunar@dslb-094-220-167-160.094.220.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined ##vulkan[11:37:41] <sharpneli> marijnfs: Our system works on basis of multiple objects. So it's a bit easier.[11:38:09] <sharpneli> marijnfs: For things that come and go with no sense there is a separate dynamic allocator. But that's just for few per each frame.[11:38:25] <sharpneli> marijnfs: As an example even if something is culled away we still have it's "place" in the buffers.[11:38:35] <marijnfs> marijnfs: you mean a separate desc. set for each object?[11:39:05] <marijnfs> sharpneli: as in many of your objects are known in advance?[11:39:13] <sharpneli> We have also splitted the desc sets. One desc set contains things like MVP, another things like what textures it has[11:39:19] <sharpneli> Yes[11:39:41] <sharpneli> For most scenes that is true. Any frame is generally really similar to the preceding one[11:39:56] <sharpneli> So we're not playing surprised when the same object comes to the rendering for the 1000th time[11:40:22] <sharpneli> Also object lifetimes tends to be clustered quite well.[11:42:12] <sharpneli> Our API works basically "Oh hai, here are 10 objects that come to rendering", then we allocate the MVP buffers etc for 10 objects and all other necessary stuff. Then later "Oh yeah, those 10 objects are now gone. Plz delete all"[11:43:08] *** pa <pa!~pa@unaffiliated/pa> has joined ##vulkan[11:44:36] <marijnfs> sharpneli: i see, so mvp buffers and objects are sort of separated in code? thats good[11:44:59] <Deluxe> sharpneli, last thing... is there any way to avoid command buffer duplication in stereo rendering without VK_KHX_multiview?[11:45:04] <sharpneli> Yup. It's because things like shadowmaps obv want to use different MVP buffers[11:45:46] <marijnfs> sharpneli: ok thanks i'll struggle on[11:45:54] <sharpneli> Deluxe: I cannot be sure. But I don't know of any way to do that.[11:48:39] <Deluxe> sharpneli, thanks I was wondering if its worth trying to do that... probably it isn't without multiview... to bad it isn't supported on AMD/Windows[11:52:25] <ratchetfreak> well stereo used different V matrices but M and P can remain the same for both views[11:52:28] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E0184660DECA62CBF7DBB27.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[11:52:45] <ratchetfreak> and V and P remain constant for each view[11:54:49] <sharpneli> You likely do want to precomp those tho instead of calculating them per vertex[11:55:28] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E0184663868469B946902DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[11:56:05] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E0184667070B9EB8E699267.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[11:56:57] <marijnfs> sharpneli: how do you separate the texture desc set from the possibly dynamic uniform buffer?[11:57:00] <ratchetfreak> it's 1 extra vertex/matrix multiplication per vertex, I doubt it would matter that much TBH[11:57:08] <marijnfs> can you bind two sets separately?[11:57:27] <sharpneli> Yes[11:57:36] <sharpneli> At minimum at least 4 different desc sets can be used[11:57:46] <sharpneli> Anything above that is implementation defined[11:58:15] <marijnfs> sharpneli: what do you have to do to make sure the shader knows where what is and the sets dont conflict[11:58:41] <sharpneli> ratchetfreak: If you give V and P separately from M you have to do at least 1 extra matrix/matrix mul per vertex. And that may have an effect considering it's like hundreds of thousands per frame.[11:59:11] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host81-153-204-241.range81-153.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[11:59:11] <sharpneli> marijnfs: When writing the shader you write it explicitly. layout(set=0, binding=1234) etc etc[11:59:14] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E01846650FB40762A163418.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[11:59:26] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E0184660DECA62CBF7DBB27.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[11:59:35] <ratchetfreak> then add parenthisis so it's gl_Position = P*(V*(M*vertex)));[12:00:04] <ratchetfreak> or gl_Position = PV*(M*vertex));[12:00:06] <sharpneli> ratchetfreak: Still. It's hundreds of thousands extra per frame.[12:00:28] <ratchetfreak> on hardware optimized to handle that[12:00:52] <sharpneli> I'd rather use the compute units for more lights etc[12:01:44] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466897E20860B3A7CF7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[12:01:49] <sharpneli> Havent tested it in a while tho. Might run a test at some point.[12:02:41] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E0184663868469B946902DA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[12:02:48] *** exDM69 <exDM69!rikusalmin@kapsi.fi> has joined ##vulkan[12:03:08] <ratchetfreak> I don't think that 100k extra matrix*vertex will weigh up against 10 million light calcs[12:03:44] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E01846600E657CD3D908C1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[12:03:58] <sharpneli> It's somewhere on the order of adding few lights more into the scene[12:04:37] <sharpneli> Light computation scales on fragments. Whereas vertex workload scales as per vertices getting past CPU culler[12:05:17] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E01846650FB40762A163418.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[12:07:38] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E01846625E9476E5DF862BC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[12:07:53] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466897E20860B3A7CF7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[12:08:54] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466182C522661ECBD25.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[12:11:08] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E01846600E657CD3D908C1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[12:11:58] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466943BB1147F0C6816.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[12:13:05] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E01846625E9476E5DF862BC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[12:16:08] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466247F45E83F214671.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[12:16:20] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466182C522661ECBD25.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[12:18:56] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466943BB1147F0C6816.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[12:21:18] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E01846618DD58A6E881FC1B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[12:24:19] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E0184662411C26905F5AD0A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[12:25:26] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466247F45E83F214671.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[12:27:48] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E01846618DD58A6E881FC1B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[12:28:43] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466B5AA7C66E397855B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[12:30:48] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E01846609C928282816A5D3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[12:31:21] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E0184662411C26905F5AD0A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)[12:32:29] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host81-153-204-241.range81-153.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[12:32:35] *** salamanderrake <salamanderrake!~quassel@cpe-24-165-192-204.neo.res.rr.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[12:33:48] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466F8041D3304615392.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[12:34:48] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466B5AA7C66E397855B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[12:37:18] *** GPpow2srv_ <GPpow2srv_!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E01846609C928282816A5D3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[12:37:55] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466FC011DB61285B14A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[12:40:18] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466F8041D3304615392.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[12:42:43] *** salamanderrake <salamanderrake!~quassel@cpe-24-165-192-204.neo.res.rr.com> has joined ##vulkan[12:43:40] *** ville <ville!~ville@176-93-77-150.bb.dnainternet.fi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[12:44:38] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host81-153-204-241.range81-153.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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*** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E018466E0E90937230F7C9C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)[13:56:33] *** Salek <Salek!~salek@91-155-9-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has joined ##vulkan[13:58:30] *** GPpow2srv__ <GPpow2srv__!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E01846695322823275220ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[13:59:19] *** GMpow2srv <GMpow2srv!~GMpow2srv@p2003005F6E01846690E8CEB628DC3346.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)[13:59:19] *** ZeroWalker <ZeroWalker!~ZeroWalke@78-67-154-24-no268.tbcn.telia.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)[14:00:25] <marijnfs_> sharpneli: are you working on an open source project? 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