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   May 22, 2017
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[00:01:25] <GMpow2_3> well
[00:01:50] <GMpow2_3> or too stupid people to deduce all 100000 possible interpretations of 20 API functions together
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[00:43:00] <ville> GMpow2_3: years ago is perhaps stretching it when the interface has been out for little over a year
[00:43:27] <GMpow2_3> sure, I can't remember when it launched
[00:43:35] <GMpow2_3> feels like 5 years :D
[00:44:38] <ville> Neomex: i guess this is a reasonable starter: https://vulkan-tutorial.com/ unfortunately they can't resist doing some wrappery, but these days hardly any tutorial on almost any subject manages to avoid it
[00:45:42] <GMpow2_3> i can't even imagine how to do any vulkan without really really thin wrappers
[00:46:06] <Neomex> im currently struggling between nim and rust
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[00:46:35] <GMpow2_3> for myself the wrappers got bigger and bigger (of course by not paying a lot)
[00:46:39] <Neomex> i reaaally dont want c++ in my life again
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[00:46:49] <GMpow2_3> C#...java
[00:47:35] <GMpow2_3> I don't touch any "language" for serious projects which don't have debuggers and profilers
[00:47:38] <ratchetfreak> you can do pure C...
[00:47:48] <GMpow2_3> ...or assembly ;)
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[00:48:12] <GMpow2_3> ok this was too much i think, I wasn't serious
[00:48:14] <Neomex> yeah about c# is it really THAT slower?
[00:48:26] <Neomex> i cant have my PBR and god knows what else in it?
[00:48:38] <GMpow2_3> 1/6th of C++ roughtly...depends on what you do
[00:48:58] <GMpow2_3> for numeric code one to two oders of mangitude...maybe
[00:49:12] <GMpow2_3> no idea, I haven't measured this, depends on code too
[00:49:44] <ratchetfreak> jit optimizers have been pretty good lately
[00:49:47] <GMpow2_3> I would drive most stuff from C#/java and do the high performance stuff in C++
[00:50:23] <ratchetfreak> C# and java haven't been purely interpreted for a long time
[00:50:52] <GMpow2_3> of course C# and java are jited, but C# is jited ahead of time and java at runtime
[00:51:17] <GMpow2_3> and the JVM rewrites emitted code to better code some times (deoptimization)
[00:51:39] <GMpow2_3> or when you load an bytecode class
[00:51:41] <slime> JIT stands for just-in-time [compilation]...
[00:51:57] <slime> i.e. at runtime
[00:51:59] <ratchetfreak> and the resulting code will be just as good as C or C++
[00:52:36] <GMpow2_3> and JVM(java virtual machine) seems to be a bit faster than C#
[00:53:26] <GMpow2_3> @ratchetfreak most of the time, yes
[00:53:57] <GMpow2_3> but an JIT today doesn't have to time for extreme optimizations, like autovectorization
[00:54:47] <GMpow2_3> Java8 has intrinsic(functions which do low level assembly like computation) like functionality which is cool
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[00:55:02] <GMpow2_3> C# has vectorized types
[00:56:27] <GMpow2_3> and then there are languages such as rust, lua, D, python, haskell, clojure, etc etc
[00:59:02] <GMpow2_3> fun story, I wrote a medium sized project in D (after moving from C++ years ago) but the tooling is not that great
[00:59:38] <GMpow2_3> profiling was superb with the intel profiler, but there is just no good debugger
[00:59:45] <GMpow2_3> tooling tooling tooling ;)
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[01:00:41] <GMpow2_3> this was my D rant, damn it :D
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[01:01:42] <Neomex> i still have PTSD from D compilers
[01:01:52] <Neomex> it might have changed by now
[01:02:04] <ratchetfreak> The worst part about D is that half the std lib requires the GC
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[01:07:39] <GMpow2> this is true
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[14:07:17] <gamester> What are secondary command buffers for?
[14:08:00] <exDM69> gamester: they can be "called from" primary command buffers
[14:08:11] <gamester> yeah but why?
[14:08:20] <exDM69> for reuse
[14:08:41] <gamester> and why not just reuse a primary?
[14:08:53] <exDM69> you can but it's not practical
[14:09:17] <exDM69> primary command buffers tend to have lots of stuff that changes every frame
[14:09:20] <gamester> what makes reusing secondary command buffers more practical? Because they inherit state?
[14:09:22] <exDM69> so you need to re-record them
[14:09:33] <exDM69> but then you have stuff that doesn't change
[14:09:55] <baldurk> they're also useful because they let you parallelise recording of a render pass
[14:10:35] <exDM69> so you can e.g. make a secondary cmdbuf for every "room" (or whatever) in your game, and then have a primary that calls all the secondaries for every visible room
[14:11:14] <gamester> okay nice
[14:12:50] <gamester> So I can make them rather small and it wont matter since its apart of a larger primary?
[14:13:05] <gamester> part* of
[14:14:05] <mangelis> reminds me of old opengl display lists
[14:15:22] <exDM69> gamester: well you *can* make really small secondary buffers but there's no point if it's just one or two draw calls
[14:15:39] <gamester> sure
[14:15:58] <exDM69> so it's a tradeoff
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   May 22, 2017
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