February 26, 2017 
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If I want to draw one object with textures and another one without, do I have to use separate pipelines for them? I get validation errors if I use descriptorsets without updating them.[13:25:42] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[13:31:56] *** localuser- <localuser-!~quassel@unaffiliated/localuser-> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[13:32:37] <sharpneli> Depends how you want to do it. But if the pipeline layout demands textures you must bind something valid there[13:32:50] <sharpneli> 1x1 dummy texture might make sense. Or you could just make another pipeline[13:33:24] *** Feedz <Feedz!~Feedz@unaffiliated/feedz> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[13:33:36] *** Feedz <Feedz!~Feedz@unaffiliated/feedz> has joined ##vulkan[13:35:07] *** localuser- <localuser-!~quassel@unaffiliated/localuser-> has joined ##vulkan[13:39:52] *** localuser- <localuser-!~quassel@unaffiliated/localuser-> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[13:48:10] *** tambry is now known as tambre[13:51:54] *** uuppi <uuppi!54e6147e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.230.20.126> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[13:55:14] *** echotangoecho <echotangoecho!~echotango@dhcp-089-098-177-067.chello.nl> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[13:57:56] *** echotangoecho <echotangoecho!~echotango@dhcp-089-098-177-067.chello.nl> has joined ##vulkan[14:21:08] *** Stenzek <Stenzek!~stenzek@2001:19f0:5800:8da1:5400:ff:fe0d:2579> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[14:23:29] *** Stenzek <Stenzek!~stenzek@2001:19f0:5800:8da1:5400:ff:fe0d:2579> has joined ##vulkan[14:27:03] *** sla_ro|master <sla_ro|master!~sla.ro@95.76.45.217> has quit IRC ()[14:32:55] *** slidercrank <slidercrank!~slidercra@unaffiliated/slidercrank> has joined ##vulkan[14:34:38] *** ville <ville!~ville@87-93-141-3.bb.dnainternet.fi> has joined ##vulkan[14:55:55] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[15:02:35] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[15:03:00] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[15:51:32] *** ravior <ravior!~crapitea@5-13-148-76.residential.rdsnet.ro> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[15:52:00] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-176-242-250.range86-176.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[16:00:34] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[16:01:07] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[16:10:18] *** GMpow2srV <GMpow2srV!~goedelmac@55d44dc3.access.ecotel.net> has joined ##vulkan[16:20:49] *** toor <toor!~toor@76.ip-51-254-204.eu> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[16:21:54] *** toor <toor!~toor@51.254.204.76> has joined ##vulkan[16:24:57] <fazias> should be able to create a "null descriptor"[16:28:03] *** Tiffany <Tiffany!tiffany@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[16:30:21] *** Tiffany <Tiffany!tiffany@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe> has joined ##vulkan[16:34:46] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[16:35:10] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[16:39:27] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-176-242-250.range86-176.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[16:45:22] *** Adrinael <Adrinael!~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)[16:46:22] *** LeNsTR|away is now known as lenstr[16:51:13] *** Adrinael <Adrinael!~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org> has joined ##vulkan[16:57:04] *** localuser- <localuser-!~quassel@unaffiliated/localuser-> has joined ##vulkan[17:04:45] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-176-242-250.range86-176.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[17:06:23] *** Adrinael <Adrinael!~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[17:12:17] *** Adrinael <Adrinael!~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org> has joined ##vulkan[17:22:34] *** Adrinael <Adrinael!~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[17:25:43] *** Tiffany <Tiffany!tiffany@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[17:29:38] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[17:30:02] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[17:30:22] *** Adrinael <Adrinael!~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org> has joined ##vulkan[17:33:48] *** Tiffany <Tiffany!tiffany@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe> has joined ##vulkan[17:36:15] *** sla_ro|master <sla_ro|master!~sla.ro@95.76.45.217> has joined ##vulkan[18:02:34] <tomaka> I was wondering about texture atlases[18:02:55] <tomaka> basically what I had in mind is this: at the start of a frame, check which textures need to be uploaded in the atlas[18:03:15] <tomaka> switch the texture to the transfer_dest layout, then write the texture, then switch it to the shader_read_optimal layout[18:03:36] *** TTimo <TTimo!~timo@ec2-52-23-106-143.compute-1.amazonaws.com> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[18:03:47] <tomaka> but texture atlases are usually huge (I take the maximum possible dimension in my code), so isn't it costly to perform these layouts changes?[18:04:29] <tomaka> meanwhile individual texture layers can be transitionned individually, so isn't it better to have a "small" texture with several layers?[18:08:17] <ratchetfreak> large atlasses do seem to be less optimal than a texture array[18:09:03] *** TTimo <TTimo!~timo@ec2-52-23-106-143.compute-1.amazonaws.com> has joined ##vulkan[18:09:34] <sharpneli> tomaka: Depends heavily on hardware. Might make sense to use the IMAGE_LAYOUT_GENERAL[18:10:15] <tomaka> hmm, half of my rendering is using textures in this atlas so I'm not sure about LAYOUT_GENERAL[18:10:30] <tomaka> note that this is a theoretical question for now, because I'm handling layouts properly anyway[18:10:32] <ratchetfreak> it'd be nice if we could query whether a specific layout transition is expensive[18:10:34] <tomaka> I'm not*[18:10:47] <ratchetfreak> and then let us pick whether to use specific layouts[18:13:16] <tomaka> since my rendering code is still small, I'm still hesitating whether to use Vulkan or OpenGL for my indie game[18:13:35] <tomaka> I'm not afraid at all about the technical obstacle, but the market share worries me a bit[18:14:01] <tomaka> and I don't want to maintain two rendering code, otherwise it'd be an engine[18:14:21] <Cheery> tomaka: did you know that steam has released VR extension that runs on Vulkan only on Linux?[18:14:40] <Cheery> tomaka: also there are drivers from many vendors now.[18:15:18] <tomaka> there are "only" 72% of the people who have a DX12-compatible hardware according to steam: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/[18:15:58] <tomaka> which means 28% of the people wouldn't be able to try my game[18:16:44] <tomaka> drivers are irrelevant if you don't have the hardware[18:16:54] <Cheery> I am sure the count is increasing.[18:17:20] <ratchetfreak> there is hardware that will never get a driver[18:17:35] <ratchetfreak> (unless the vendor will release the specs of the hardware)[18:21:02] <tomaka> I guess the reasonable thing to do is to switch back to OpenGL[18:21:48] <ratchetfreak> with a proper abstractions maintaining a dual redner backend shouldn't be that hard[18:22:32] *** kuldeep <kuldeep!~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[18:22:50] *** kuldeep <kuldeep!~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka> has joined ##vulkan[18:22:55] <Cheery> tomaka: why are you considering Vulkan?[18:23:14] <tomaka> Cheery, basically at the start of the project my idea was to heavily use GPGPU[18:23:25] <tomaka> and to make tons of CPU<->GPU communications[18:23:33] <tomaka> tried with OpenGL, didn't really work because magic drivers[18:23:41] <tomaka> switched to vulkan, worked very well[18:23:47] <tomaka> but now I scrapped this idea of GPGPU[18:24:02] <Cheery> why?[18:24:13] <tomaka> for gameplay reasons[18:24:22] *** cactuz <cactuz!~cactus@0140800230.0.fullrate.ninja> has joined ##vulkan[18:24:33] <tomaka> basically the idea was to use GPGPU to simulate an economy[18:24:39] *** ShadowIce <ShadowIce!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has joined ##vulkan[18:24:46] <tomaka> but it turns out the end result is unreadable and the player doesn't know what to do[18:25:01] <tomaka> so I went for a much simpler system that runs on the CPU[18:25:28] <Cheery> that's interesting.[18:26:45] <tomaka> to go into details, the initial idea was to simulate merchandises flowing through the map[18:27:04] <tomaka> so you'd see arrows telling you how trade is going[18:27:18] <tomaka> but you were totally overwelmed with these things[18:27:37] <ratchetfreak> do heatmaps instead maybe?[18:27:43] <tomaka> now instead I just show few individual sprites navigating through a path[18:27:43] <Cheery> tomaka: I'm working on a programming language, and I got excited about Vulkan because it seems to abstract very well.[18:28:24] <tomaka> ratchetfreak, I don't think it was a problem of the way I showed the information, but arther that there was too much information[18:28:46] <tomaka> like, imagine you need to import more oil because war and stuff[18:28:54] <tomaka> if you have this heatmap you have no idea what to do[18:29:19] <tomaka> instead if you have a few sources of oil and you see little oil sprites navigating, you know that that's what you're supposed to capture[18:29:44] <tomaka> I'm not explaining that very clearly I think[18:29:51] <ratchetfreak> or caputure the bits of land with the higher "oil heat"[18:31:01] <tomaka> but is the heat representing production or availability?[18:31:14] <tomaka> because if it's the former, you don't know whether your troops have access to it[18:31:21] <tomaka> and if it's availability, well everything would be red[18:32:15] <ratchetfreak> it's going to be colder where buying and transporting the oil to it is more expensive[18:32:29] <ratchetfreak> if you own the facilities then you can give yourself discounts[18:32:37] <ratchetfreak> if it's closer the transport is cheaper[18:32:46] <ratchetfreak> if a pipeline has been laid down it's cheaper[18:33:14] <tomaka> yeah all these were part of the initial design[18:33:18] *** glisse_ <glisse_!~glisse@annarchy.freedesktop.org> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[18:33:18] *** marcheu <marcheu!~marcheu@annarchy.freedesktop.org> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[18:33:22] <tomaka> the problem is just that it was too confusing for the player I think[18:33:37] <ratchetfreak> overlays would be necessary[18:34:06] <tomaka> I have also encountered various technical issues[18:34:42] <tomaka> like, how do you map a quantity to a color? you'd need to take the highest quantity on the planet and use bright red for it[18:34:55] <tomaka> but knowing what the highest quantity is, is not easy from the GPU[18:35:25] <ratchetfreak> getting a histogram of the values and then making a scale out of them?[18:35:30] <tomaka> so you'd need to hardcode a value, but this value will evolve over time and stuff[18:36:12] <ratchetfreak> atomicMax exists in spir-V I believe[18:37:35] <tomaka> another problem I encountered is how to handle ports[18:37:48] <tomaka> imagine you have some stock of oil somewhere and you trade it[18:37:48] <ratchetfreak> long range transports and stuff[18:37:58] <tomaka> finding the neighbouring tile with the highest price is easy[18:38:09] <tomaka> but if you're on a port, finding which port in the world has the highest price isn't[18:38:19] <tomaka> (again, from the GPU point of view)[18:38:45] <tomaka> it's something that can be solved I think, but in the end it increases the complexity a lot[18:38:47] <ratchetfreak> finding a route through which you can get the lowest transportation overhead isn't[18:39:26] <sharpneli> Maximums and minimums are generally quite fast to compute. Just do the usual logarithmic reduction. It's like calculating a blur.[18:39:31] <sharpneli> Or generating mipmaps[18:39:59] <tomaka> sharpneli, yeah but we're talking about 300k*32 maximums/minimums to compute[18:40:19] <tomaka> I really wanted to avoid doing multiple passes over the data[18:40:24] *** glisse <glisse!~glisse@annarchy.freedesktop.org> has joined ##vulkan[18:40:24] *** glisse <glisse!~glisse@annarchy.freedesktop.org> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[18:40:38] <sharpneli> tomaka: You need 32 different maximums?[18:40:39] *** glisse <glisse!~glisse@annarchy.freedesktop.org> has joined ##vulkan[18:40:41] <sharpneli> Or?[18:40:45] <tomaka> 32 different goods[18:40:48] <ratchetfreak> make each pass do as much as possible[18:41:00] <Cheery> why multiple passes over data is bad in this case?[18:41:10] <tomaka> because caches[18:41:13] <sharpneli> It's really not that bad in the end. 150k in the first pass. 75k in second. And so forth.[18:41:43] <tomaka> I say 32, in fact it's eight vec4s[18:43:27] *** airlied <airlied!~airlied@fruit.freedesktop.org> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[18:46:26] <sharpneli> And there are 300k ports in the game?[18:47:01] <tomaka> No, 300k tiles[18:47:12] <sharpneli> And you can trade the resource in any tile?[18:47:32] <tomaka> Each tile would trade with its neighbours, or with other ports if it was a port[18:47:40] <tomaka> ports were buildings constructed by the player[18:47:59] <sharpneli> Ah. Ports break the topology[18:48:13] <ratchetfreak> if it's not more than a few dozen ports then it souldn't be that big of a deal I think[18:48:15] <tomaka> the system had a flaw though, because the player wouldn't want to build ports in small islands, which would make them untradable[18:49:05] <sharpneli> Yeah. Just keep the ports in separate lists[18:51:01] <sharpneli> So in the end you need just port count of max calculations[18:51:01] <tomaka> since I didn't want merchandises to instantaneously travel from a port to another, I also went with sending the list of exports to the CPU, which would then move them to the destination[18:51:15] <tomaka> the idea was to allow blocuses for example as well[19:05:19] <tomaka> basically I justified vulkan by the fact that the game utilizes the GPU a lot[19:05:41] <tomaka> and if your hardware didn't support vulkan, it probably wouldn't be powerful enough to run the simulation anyway[19:06:10] <tomaka> but now that all this is gone, I have no blocking reason to use vulkan anymore even though I'd prefer to use it[19:28:00] *** glisse <glisse!~glisse@annarchy.freedesktop.org> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[19:33:44] *** ravior <ravior!~crapitea@5-13-156-182.residential.rdsnet.ro> has joined ##vulkan[19:36:05] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-176-242-250.range86-176.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[19:39:12] *** localuser- <localuser-!~quassel@unaffiliated/localuser-> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[19:40:52] *** joakim <joakim!uid154127@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lhoedeizsaeegbno> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[19:47:32] *** Guest53 <Guest53!~textual@node41.seg212.ucf.edu> has joined ##vulkan[19:49:24] *** Guest53 is now known as IRC-deathdog[19:51:31] *** echotangoecho <echotangoecho!~echotango@dhcp-089-098-177-067.chello.nl> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[19:54:24] *** echotangoecho <echotangoecho!~echotango@dhcp-089-098-177-067.chello.nl> has joined ##vulkan[19:59:44] *** john3 <john3!~john@host86-143-90-12.range86-143.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[20:05:33] *** IRC-deathdog is now known as help[20:06:02] *** help is now known as Guest8062[20:07:08] *** Guest8062 is now known as rlarionov[20:07:48] *** rlarionov is now known as sdfsdf[20:07:58] *** sdfsdf is now known as sdfsdfsdfsdafsdf[20:08:05] *** sdfsdfsdfsdafsdf is now known as rlarionov[20:09:19] *** rlarionov <rlarionov!~textual@node41.seg212.ucf.edu> has quit IRC (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)[20:11:08] *** rlarionov <rlarionov!~rlarionov@node41.seg212.ucf.edu> has joined ##vulkan[20:11:20] * Ralith hopes this doesn't demotivate vulkano[20:12:49] *** rlarionov <rlarionov!~rlarionov@node41.seg212.ucf.edu> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[20:19:05] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-176-242-250.range86-176.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[20:19:52] <tomaka> Ralith, no[20:20:26] <Ralith> \o/[20:20:52] <tomaka> the only problem is that I will no longer have a "real world" test case for vulkano[20:21:15] <Ralith> my attitude towards indie gamedev has always been "by the time I actually release anything, whatever exciting bleeding edge tech I choose to use will be standard," but maybe you're better at releasing things than me[20:21:49] <tomaka> my plan is to have a playable game mid-march[20:21:54] <ratchetfreak> or the bleeding edge has sunk[20:21:56] <tomaka> then some kind of alpha this summer[20:22:14] <tomaka> it's not enough time for vulkan to gain 20% market share[20:22:34] <slime73> playable game in 2 weeks? are you almost there?[20:22:56] <tomaka> yes[20:23:08] <tomaka> only thing missing is correct graphisms[20:28:55] *** echotangoecho <echotangoecho!~echotango@dhcp-089-098-177-067.chello.nl> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[20:34:03] *** Rangar <Rangar!~Dave@124.197.29.80> has joined ##vulkan[20:46:42] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined ##vulkan[20:46:43] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[20:51:21] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined ##vulkan[20:56:05] *** slidercrank <slidercrank!~slidercra@unaffiliated/slidercrank> has quit IRC (Quit: siht gnidaer er'uoy fi emit eerf hcum oot evah uoy :tiuQ)[21:04:23] *** [xyzzy] <[xyzzy]!~xyzzy@2600:8803:e400:d600:21e:6ff:fecc:bedc> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[21:12:44] *** joakim <joakim!uid154127@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wsofjymftfbqmhjp> has joined ##vulkan[21:15:13] *** tambre <tambre!~tambre@9b1a-c557-f741-5d18-0e80-8a31-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[21:15:41] *** [xyzzy] <[xyzzy]!~xyzzy@ip68-229-227-253.ok.ok.cox.net> has joined ##vulkan[21:17:53] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[21:18:21] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[21:23:01] *** lpghatguy <lpghatguy!~lpghatguy@2601:642:4301:3830:3985:5061:be07:8218> has joined ##vulkan[21:24:05] *** lpghatguy <lpghatguy!~lpghatguy@2601:642:4301:3830:3985:5061:be07:8218> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[21:25:17] *** lpghatguy <lpghatguy!~lpghatguy@2601:642:4301:3830:3985:5061:be07:8218> has joined ##vulkan[21:35:27] *** tacchinotacchi <tacchinotacchi!~tacchinot@net-93-71-250-96.cust.vodafonedsl.it> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[21:36:10] *** tacchinotacchi <tacchinotacchi!~tacchinot@net-93-151-149-64.cust.dsl.teletu.it> has joined ##vulkan[21:41:07] *** john3 <john3!~john@host86-143-90-12.range86-143.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[21:41:38] *** glisse <glisse!~glisse@annarchy.freedesktop.org> has joined ##vulkan[21:43:31] *** localuser- <localuser-!~quassel@unaffiliated/localuser-> has joined ##vulkan[21:47:51] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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