February 24, 2017 
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February 24, 2017 [00:00:56] *** derhass <derhass!~derhass@ipservice-092-216-126-046.092.216.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[00:01:01] *** ravior_ <ravior_!~crapitea@5-13-128-156.residential.rdsnet.ro> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[00:10:33] *** nsf <nsf!~nsf@jiss.convex.ru> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 1.7)[00:22:41] *** [xyzzy] <[xyzzy]!~xyzzy@2600:8803:e400:d600:21e:6ff:fecc:bedc> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[00:24:47] *** [xyzzy] <[xyzzy]!~xyzzy@2600:8803:e400:d600:21e:6ff:fecc:bedc> has joined ##vulkan[00:27:22] *** xissburg_ <xissburg_!~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg> has joined ##vulkan[00:28:32] *** xissburg <xissburg!~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg> has quit IRC (Read error: No route to host)[00:43:14] *** kuldeep <kuldeep!~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka> has joined ##vulkan[00:43:15] *** Biolunar <Biolunar!Biolunar@dslb-146-060-153-145.146.060.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined ##vulkan[00:59:13] *** Neomex <Neomex!~Neomex@dvp182.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl> has joined ##vulkan[01:08:11] *** Abelistah <Abelistah!~quassel@gjalp.dk> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[01:11:22] *** Abelistah <Abelistah!~quassel@gjalp.dk> has joined ##vulkan[01:16:21] *** xissburg <xissburg!~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg> has joined ##vulkan[01:17:36] *** xissburg_ <xissburg_!~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[01:43:28] *** kdub <kdub!~kdub@cpe-76-167-120-4.san.res.rr.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[01:48:19] *** jsgrant- <jsgrant-!~jsgrant@97-85-249-106.static.stls.mo.charter.com> has joined ##vulkan[01:53:19] *** GMpow2 <GMpow2!~5@2a02:810a:83c0:cb14:58cb:cb98:66ee:e8b6> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[02:08:10] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7nei0a9vvjq37a.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[02:09:02] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-176-242-250.range86-176.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[02:20:07] *** spectralec <spectralec!~spectral@c-50-131-138-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> has joined ##vulkan[02:34:05] *** robot-beethoven <robot-beethoven!~robot-bee@c-73-65-29-166.hsd1.mn.comcast.net> has joined ##vulkan[02:35:38] <spectralec> Anyone around that help answer a beginner question?[02:39:08] <Ralith> if you ask your question you might find out[02:41:18] <spectralec> Fair enough, I am following a tutorial and I'm trying to understand the usage of semaphores. The tutorial has me with a swap chain of size 2, and in the main loop calls vkAcquireNextImageKHR, but it only uses the same semaphore for that call each time[02:41:56] <spectralec> Im confused why this is valid, it seems we could go through the main loop twice and call acquire again using the same semaphore, before the previous invocation had signaled it[02:44:43] *** glYoda <glYoda!~MTLYoda@c-71-236-230-251.hsd1.or.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Quit: glYoda)[03:11:12] *** xissburg_ <xissburg_!~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg> has joined ##vulkan[03:14:46] *** xissburg <xissburg!~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[03:52:13] *** afl_ext <afl_ext!~afl_ext3@unaffiliated/afl-ext/x-2796036> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[04:04:48] *** GMpow5srV <GMpow5srV!~goedelmac@55d4536f.access.ecotel.net> has joined ##vulkan[04:05:16] *** Neomex <Neomex!~Neomex@dvp182.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[04:08:24] *** GMpow3srV 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https://github.com/LunarG/VulkanSamples/blob/master/demos/cube.cpp[21:13:52] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-176-242-250.range86-176.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[21:15:08] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-176-242-250.range86-176.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[21:20:37] *** tambre2 <tambre2!~tambre@afae-f311-4f53-30d0-0e80-8a31-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[21:20:38] *** thynn <thynn!~thynnmas@188.113.79.144> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[21:21:33] *** neurre <neurre!~tsuorant@a91-155-31-190.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has joined ##vulkan[21:22:33] *** neurre <neurre!~tsuorant@a91-155-31-190.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[21:23:53] *** thynnmas <thynnmas!~thynnmas@188.113.79.144> has joined ##vulkan[21:24:54] *** Matthijs <Matthijs!~quassel@unaffiliated/matthijs> has joined ##vulkan[21:26:37] *** glYoda <glYoda!~MTLYoda@c-71-236-230-251.hsd1.or.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Quit: glYoda)[21:26:56] <Ralith> spectralec: did you find an answer?[21:27:29] <spectralec> Not yet, just posted the question to reddit/r/vulkan: https://www.reddit.com/r/vulkan/comments/5vzijc/question_about_vksemaphore_usage/[21:32:13] *** Matthijs <Matthijs!~quassel@unaffiliated/matthijs> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[21:32:32] <tomaka> spectralec, there's an issue open for this in the vulkan-docs repo[21:33:06] <tomaka> opened in, like, march 2016, zero comments[21:33:27] <tomaka> I don't remember how it's called, I just remember that because I've searched for the same info[21:33:54] <spectralec> I see.. let me search around in there[21:35:48] <spectralec> do you remember if the issue was that the use of a single set of semaphores is actually insufficient? or just that it isn't properly documented why it is valid[21:36:10] <Ralith> spectralec: it seems to me that the hypothesis you put forward in that post is clearly correct[21:36:25] <Ralith> i.e. one set of semaphores per swapchain image is necessary[21:37:13] <Ralith> if your examples don't visibly fail without that measure, well, that's undefined behavior for you[21:38:16] <spectralec> Interestingly this is the approach used in both vulkan-tutorial.com and the comprehensive examples found at https://github.com/SaschaWillems/Vulkan[21:38:22] <tomaka> I remember using one semaphore per swapchain image, but after some time I ended up using n+1 semaphores for n swapchain images[21:38:35] <tomaka> I don't remember exactly why, but I was getting problems[21:39:11] <spectralec> I just got a comment on my post btw[21:39:12] <spectralec> " When you hit the next frame, with the next set of submits, it should follow submission ordering. That is the execution is set to begin on the first set of submits before the second set of submits. The wait and signaled states of the semaphores will be processed far along enough that the second submit will not over lap them."[21:39:31] <spectralec> This seems to say "... the timing just works out" :)[21:39:58] <Ralith> yeah, I don't buy that guy's logic[21:39:59] <tomaka> the problem is that you don't submit vkAcquireNext on a queue[21:40:15] <tomaka> so there's no ordering compared to the vkQueuePresent[21:40:23] *** ravior <ravior!~crapitea@5-15-223-104.residential.rdsnet.ro> has joined ##vulkan[21:40:29] <tomaka> submissing ordering is only relevant for a single queue[21:40:36] <tomaka> submission*[21:41:27] <spectralec> well I'll give a shot to cycling through semaphores instead of reusing them every frame[21:41:57] <Ralith> that approach certainly won't break anything, so it seems like the obvious course of action[21:44:07] <tomaka> my robust wrapper actually submits an empty vkQueueSubmit with just a fence[21:44:18] <tomaka> in order to know when the semaphore has been waited upon and can be reused[21:44:30] <tomaka> very crappy way to do things, but I had to do something[21:45:23] *** sla_ro|master <sla_ro|master!~sla.ro@95.76.45.217> has quit IRC ()[21:46:00] <spectralec> right. yes I think I'll keep a queue of semaphore pairs for this. I was hoping to just keep an array of them and use whatever semaphore is at the same index of the swap chain image, but unfortunately I need to pass in the semaphore before I find out the swap chain index[21:46:06] <spectralec> so it can't be quite that easy[21:48:12] *** ZexaronS <ZexaronS!~zexpc@cpe-194-152-22-45.static.triera.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[21:50:39] *** salamanderrake <salamanderrake!~quassel@2605:a000:1229:c036:e921:f187:e6ed:4c64> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[21:52:54] *** ImQ009_ <ImQ009_!~ImQ009@unaffiliated/imq009> has joined ##vulkan[21:53:04] *** Jackneill_ <Jackneill_!~Jackneill@unaffiliated/jackneill> has joined ##vulkan[21:54:00] *** ShadowIce` <ShadowIce`!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has joined ##vulkan[21:54:43] *** ImQ009 <ImQ009!~ImQ009@unaffiliated/imq009> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[21:55:06] *** nsf <nsf!~nsf@jiss.convex.ru> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 1.7)[21:57:05] *** ShadowIce <ShadowIce!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[22:02:50] *** kuldeep__ <kuldeep__!~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka> has joined ##vulkan[22:02:57] *** kuldeep_ <kuldeep_!~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[22:07:42] *** echotangoecho <echotangoecho!~echotango@dhcp-089-098-177-067.chello.nl> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[22:18:46] *** salamanderrake <salamanderrake!~quassel@2605:a000:1229:c036:9c17:7969:89c9:d56> has joined ##vulkan[22:39:44] *** ImQ009_ <ImQ009_!~ImQ009@unaffiliated/imq009> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[22:40:13] <fazias> :D[22:40:42] <fazias> single queue can be thought to be more or less single thread (single commandprocessor)[22:41:58] <fazias> aah, bah. nvm.[22:42:25] <fazias> My code lives well with only 2 semaphores for n swapchain images.[22:43:02] *** Guest44283 <Guest44283!~john@host86-147-123-91.range86-147.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[22:43:29] <fazias> 1 for image acquisition, 2nd to know when we can present that image.[22:46:37] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@104.222.140.55> has joined ##vulkan[22:49:36] *** jackneill__ <jackneill__!~Jackneill@unaffiliated/jackneill> has joined ##vulkan[22:50:42] *** Jackneill_ <Jackneill_!~Jackneill@unaffiliated/jackneill> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[22:52:05] <Ralith> fazias: commands on a queue may execute simultaneously[22:52:37] <fazias> semaphores represent hard sync points[22:52:42] <fazias> no going around those[22:53:28] <fazias> or well, everything before semaphore needs to complete, before we check if we can go pass the semaphore, and after that we do everything after the semaphore[22:53:43] <ratchet_freak> not *everything* after the semaphore[22:54:01] <ratchet_freak> the stages not in the waitMask can continue[22:54:01] <fazias> well, you can have commandlists before a semaphore[22:54:04] <fazias> and after.[22:54:15] <fazias> and you can make that wait for everything.[22:55:09] <spectralec> what is keeping my render loop from coming back around to aquire w/ the same semaphore as last time, *before* the first time had signaled?[22:55:11] <fazias> point is, semaphores, as I know as synchronization primitive from cpu side, can be signaled many times.[22:55:24] <fazias> if the driver signals that "yes, ok, you acquired that image"[22:55:30] <fazias> it can signal it many times[22:55:35] <fazias> that's fine[22:55:57] <fazias> you can go pass it the times someone else signaled it.[22:56:11] *** jsgrant- <jsgrant-!~jsgrant@97-85-249-106.static.stls.mo.charter.com> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[22:56:42] *** spectralec <spectralec!~spectral@c-50-131-138-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[22:56:43] *** jsgrant- <jsgrant-!~jsgrant@97-85-249-106.static.stls.mo.charter.com> has joined ##vulkan[22:56:59] <fazias> if you are wondering why you are vsynced, I suggest profiling by sampling cpu[22:57:10] <fazias> depending on vendor, it's waiting in different places.[22:57:21] <fazias> semaphore or present[22:57:57] <fazias> and lists with semaphores are always inserted to the same queue in some order[22:57:57] *** spectralec <spectralec!~spectral@c-50-131-138-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> has joined ##vulkan[22:58:00] <fazias> that order stays[22:58:17] <fazias> which means the 2 semaphores are always seen sequentially[22:58:23] <fazias> meaning you don't really need any more than that.[22:58:44] *** spectralec <spectralec!~spectral@c-50-131-138-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[22:59:01] <fazias> If this doesn't work, then having more semaphores shouldn't make things any better.[23:00:19] <Ralith> fazias: if multiple signallings of the image acquire semaphore get consumed by a single queue submit, then the next queue submit will not be signaled properly; at best you lose pipelining entirely[23:00:30] <Ralith> I don't think spectralec reported being vsynced[23:01:07] <Ralith> vkAcquireNextImageKHR is not a command submitted to a queue, so the signaling of its semaphore says nothing about the state of any queue or its commands[23:01:24] <fazias> by my testings, I wanted no vsync (which is impossible but anyway). Multiple signalings don't get consumed by single submit by my testing.[23:01:27] <fazias> no[23:01:34] <fazias> but you insert that semaphore to the driver to signal[23:01:40] <fazias> when it's free to use that image[23:02:00] <fazias> which is why you need to wait for that semaphore before you can do any rendering to the image.[23:02:09] <Ralith> your anecdotes are unfortunately are not sufficient to prove the absence of undefined behavior.[23:02:42] <fazias> As I said, above. I don't really care, my code works with only 2. Sad that yours don't.[23:03:03] <fazias> I've tested it on windows on amd and nvidia[23:03:18] <Ralith> I don't think anyone's asking you to care, nor has anyone reported errors.[23:03:26] <fazias> when using "vsynced" present mode, nvidia waited in present where amd waited for semaphore.[23:03:41] <Ralith> indeed, the entire discussion was prompted by someone reporting the suspicious absence of errors[23:04:27] <fazias> ok, maybe I'm just screwed up by the "critical error" by certain hardware at work and the fact that it's quite late.[23:05:06] <Ralith> spectralec: to be clear, this absolutely would not be the first time widely distributed vulkan example code has had subtle UB[23:06:06] <Ralith> ratchet_freak was pretty incensed about how widely duplicated some issues synchronizing iniital image formats[23:06:10] <ratchet_freak> :)[23:06:18] <Ralith> became*[23:06:42] <fazias> actually now that I think about it... I shouldn't be surprised of any vulkan bugs... :p since I'm finding them from d3d12.[23:08:36] <Ralith> not totally sure this counts as a spec bug, though the dance you have to do to be safe seems more awkward than was likely intended[23:11:01] <ratchet_freak> I became insenced because that is how drivers end up compensating for application bugs[23:11:48] *** spectralec <spectralec!~spectral@c-50-131-138-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> has joined ##vulkan[23:14:28] <Ralith> did we dodge that bullet, by the way?[23:15:53] <ratchet_freak> I think so[23:16:09] <Ralith> \o/[23:16:11] <spectralec> Im still a little confused :)[23:16:12] <ratchet_freak> most of the tutorials I know have it fixed[23:16:47] <ratchet_freak> and I have a SO post I can guide people towards as a shortcut instead of having to explain it every time[23:19:37] <Ralith> spectralec: it appears that I made a point to you while you were disconnected--we're talking about a different instance of widely distributed tutorial code being broken, to illustrate that this wouldn't be the first time[23:19:56] <spectralec> ah I see[23:20:39] <spectralec> Im still unclear on fazias's point though. Im not seeing why the 1st pass acquire call couldn't potentially signal the 2nd pass vkQueueSubmit call[23:21:08] <spectralec> the 1st pass acquire call signals that *it's* image is ready, but the 2nd pass vkSubmit call would take that to mean the 2nd image became available[23:23:30] <Ralith> fazias seems to have mostly been relating that he hasn't personally observed any odd behavior yet[23:24:14] <Ralith> the second submission won't get the first signal because it happens after the first submission[23:24:30] <Ralith> (unless you run them on different queues, which you could)[23:25:46] <Ralith> but that's not enough to ensure safety, since then you've got the second submission waiting for a signal that isn't coming and you might still inadvertently pass a signaled semaphore to AcquireNextImage[23:26:29] <spectralec> Right. Well I got my semaphore queue working easily enough[23:26:35] <spectralec> I'll probably just leave that in place[23:29:25] <fazias> I assumed its the same as cpu semaphore, the value could be 1 when it's passed to the acquireNextImage, which could signal it to be 2 then[23:29:38] <fazias> and when I wait for semaphore, it gets reduced by one[23:30:02] <fazias> waiting happens if the semaphore is 0[23:30:11] <fazias> which means I'm not allowed to continue.[23:30:35] <fazias> So yeah, I'm assuming that you can signal semaphore more than once, and consume it more than once.[23:30:46] <spectralec> according to the spec VkSemaphore has only 2 states[23:30:48] <spectralec> signaled and unsignaled[23:30:56] <spectralec> (unfortunate naming in that case I agree)[23:31:30] <fazias> thanks, I don't remember the spec that well. Hmm, I'll have to think about some cases if they are possible.[23:31:47] *** tacchinotacchi <tacchinotacchi!~tacchinot@net-93-71-250-96.cust.vodafonedsl.it> has joined ##vulkan[23:31:52] *** ShadowIce` <ShadowIce`!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[23:32:06] <spectralec> I think Ralith is right, the most straightforward problem is that acquireImages requires an unsignaled semaphore be passed in[23:32:24] <spectralec> With the right timing the 1st pass acquire call could signal the semaphore right as you pass it to acquire again in the 2nd pass[23:32:32] <spectralec> which would conceviable produce undefined results[23:32:52] <spectralec> I just added a simple queue of semaphore pairs to avoid this (although I never saw any problems manifest)[23:33:05] <fazias> if you think about this case, you can actually write code that enforces that.[23:33:09] *** jsgrant- <jsgrant-!~jsgrant@97-85-249-106.static.stls.mo.charter.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Peace Peeps. o/ If you need me asap, message me at msg@jsgrant.io & I'll try to get back to you within 36 hours.)[23:33:30] *** jsgrant- <jsgrant-!~jsgrant@97-85-249-106.static.stls.mo.charter.com> has joined ##vulkan[23:33:39] <fazias> sadly, my code is taken apart at the moment because my api backend code was crap, have to rewrite.[23:38:10] <fazias> hmm, re reading the api functions. Yes, I could actually be wrong. Would depend on the implementation if it want it to work or not.[23:39:12] <fazias> Well, let's just consider my above suggestion as pure crap.[23:39:58] <fazias> It's the best way to approach this, because I would like to encourage to write code so you would know before hand that "this image isn't actually ready yet, I can do other cpu work before submittin/presenting this list"[23:40:56] <fazias> sooo, you would need a semaphore/fence per image anyway so you could know that "all my images haven't yet returned" -> "I can do something small and useful before trying to see if any image would be available"[23:42:00] <spectralec> Yes that was my take on it too, glad to know Im not crazy :)[23:44:08] <fazias> or in vulkans case we already know the index of the next image, so we can just check if the last commandlist that used the image has been completed.[23:49:43] <Ralith> you don't know the index of the next image until after you've supplied the semaphore, of course, so you can't use that information to help with that particular problem[23:50:56] <fazias> well, if you have a army of semaphores, what does it hurt to get one of those submitted and then know, to which image, it belongs next?[23:51:22] <fazias> then you can figure out the above information just fine after that.[23:53:15] <Ralith> sure, you can select some previously used semaphore and wait on a fence that guarantees it's ready for reuse[23:53:16] <fazias> army of semaphores == swapchain image amount of semaphores.[23:53:21] <Ralith> that's the approach tomaka described[23:53:43] <Ralith> it's annoyingly complicated but it works[23:54:06] <ratchet_freak> you can make the round robin index of the semaphore seperate from the swapchain image index[23:54:09] <fazias> :o nothing complicated with that, should have abstractions for those already ;)[23:54:42] <fazias> you should make that separate[23:54:42] *** rodarmor <rodarmor!sid210835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qnvgsvhifxztlbuq> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[23:54:53] <fazias> as you know only after acquire, to which image it actually points now.[23:55:34] <fazias> sidenote: you can keep the "renderingCompletedToThisImage" as single semaphore as you are the one who signals and consumes it sequentially in one queue.[23:56:18] *** GMpow2_3 <GMpow2_3!~5@2a02:810a:83c0:cb14:ac15:ee27:ce7:af1> has joined ##vulkan[23:56:37] <fazias> also you can pick a free semaphore, only after you know that the list which used it has completed.[23:57:55] <Ralith> since both queue submission and presentation operate on a queue, a semaphore between them requires no special handling, yeah[23:58:22] <fazias> I'm not sure if having semaphores count = swapchain image count +1, would be better as then you would have always one extra that's free. :)[23:59:28] *** GMpow2_2 <GMpow2_2!~5@2a02:810a:83c0:cb14:ac15:ee27:ce7:af1> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)