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[14:42:05] <neure> hi
[14:42:24] <neure> when textures are uploaded to vulkan, are they in top down order, upside down relative to opengl?
[14:42:59] <tomaka> yes
[14:43:58] <baldurk> vulkan convention is upper-left origin rather than bottom-left. You can get the same behaviour in opengl with use of glClipControl
[14:44:48] <neure> i thought it did not affect texture upload layout
[14:46:25] <baldurk> oh it only affects NDCs? sorry I've not used it myself
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[14:49:23] <tomaka> both upload layout and texture coords are inverted in vulkan compared to opengl
[14:49:40] <tomaka> some people told me to just ignore the problem, since it should transparently solve itself
[14:49:56] <tomaka> but I ended up being in a huge mess where things were sometimes upside down and I didn't understand why
[14:50:07] <tomaka> I ended up rewriting everything related to texture coords
[14:50:35] <tomaka> and I suggest people should do the same when porting from opengl
[14:52:28] <baldurk> and they didn't get it all the way right in base vulkan too, which is why AMD negative viewport height & maintenance extensions exist :/
[14:53:38] <sharpneli> It's good that Vulkan changed it
[14:54:22] <sharpneli> Because DirectX and Metal both have 0,0 as the top left of the texture too. Also now Vulkan has the NDC going to same direction as texture coords, which is nice too.
[14:55:27] <neure> "base vulkan"?
[14:57:00] <ratchetfreak> core without extensions
[14:57:12] <ratchetfreak> though now there is maintainance1 to fix it
[14:57:43] <baldurk> yeh, which is a very obvious candidate to become core in a new release
[14:59:03] <sharpneli> "This allows apps to avoid having to use gl_Position.y = -gl_Position.y in shaders also targeting other APIs." Huh
[14:59:11] <sharpneli> For what do you need this for_
[14:59:55] <ratchetfreak> and AMD's extension is incompatible with maintenance1 (that list of incompatible extensions is going to end up being very long in a few years)
[14:59:56] <baldurk> Vulkan's window transform doesn't have an implicit y-flip like DX does
[15:00:44] <baldurk> so with window co-ords being 0,0 in upper left, the NDC has +y going 'down' the screen
[15:00:46] <sharpneli> Yeah the NDC is different. But how does that require it?
[15:00:48] <sharpneli> Yeah?
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[15:01:16] <baldurk> so compared to other APIs you need to flip y, either at the end of the shader or on your projection matrix
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[15:01:18] <sharpneli> I mean we have our engines internal coordinate system. And then that is converted to the platform NDC with a matrix baked into the projection
[15:01:25] <sharpneli> Exactly
[15:01:28] <sharpneli> NDC changes per api
[15:01:50] <sharpneli> I really don't like that kind of change. They should then allow arbitrary changes to the whole NDC instead of just 1 axis
[15:02:41] <baldurk> what other NDCs are there? There's DX style x,y from -1 to 1 and z from 0 to 1, and old GL style x,y,z from -1 to 1?
[15:03:22] <sharpneli> If you're going to make your NDC changeable why not make it completely user defined then
[15:04:28] <baldurk> probably because on some IHV it's not easy, and it's unlikely many people will have a use case that needs it
[15:04:41] <sharpneli> I have a hunch it will not reach core though
[15:05:43] <sharpneli> And you do need the matrix to fix the Z range compared to OpenGL. So it would only help with what, directx?
[15:06:10] <ratchetfreak> and depth buffer precision
[15:06:34] <ratchetfreak> it avoid the z/2+0.5 which kills precision near the camera
[15:06:54] <ratchetfreak> when using floating point depth buffer
[15:07:01] <baldurk> right if you're targetting GL and Vulkan then you still need to fix the depth range. Realistically, I think they're more concerned with devs that currently don't target GL at all having a smoother transition
[15:07:25] <sharpneli> A decent multiplatform engine has the concept of engine coordinates and NDC separated in anycase.
[15:07:37] <baldurk> so GL's clip space isn't a problem, and the DX one is all they worry about since it's the same on consoles (IIRC PS4 had configurable GL/DX z range?)
[15:07:40] <sharpneli> It only helps those that have never written any code to target multiple platforms
[15:08:11] <fazias> never written any code to target opengl and directx at the same time*
[15:08:15] <baldurk> I don't think it's that uncommon to assume that NDC is DX style
[15:08:31] <sharpneli> Yeah for DX only things.
[15:08:45] <baldurk> DX & consoles is a pretty common multiplatform set of targets
[15:08:47] <sharpneli> And 'sides. The fix for that is just to change your projection matrix. Not a hard thing to do.
[15:08:50] <fazias> ps4, x1/win get nicely with the dx ndc
[15:09:05] <sharpneli> However if they'd want to ease the GL transition they'd allow flipping texture coordinates
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[15:09:20] <baldurk> if VK had had the flip from the start I don't imagine they would ever have made this configurable at all. the NDC is still fixed, the flip happens in the viewport transform
[15:09:20] <fazias> also, some of us do matrices platform independently
[15:09:43] <fazias> so correct fix would be to just use a extension or invisible shader modification to make it work without worrying about the platform.
[15:09:51] <baldurk> this was fixing an oversight, which is explicitly mentioned as the reason for some of the stuff in VK_KHR_maintenance1
[15:10:20] <sharpneli> I'm happy they don't have the flip. As now the NDC and texcoords run in same direction. An awesome thing.
[15:10:57] <sharpneli> fazias: You just add the platform NDC conversion in the end of your matrix stack basically.
[15:11:20] <ratchetfreak> it appear the spec language expects that you always have maintenance1 enabled:
[15:11:20] <ratchetfreak> height must be greater than or equal to -VkPhysicalDeviceLimits::maxViewportDimensions[1] and less than or equal to VkPhysicalDeviceLimits::maxViewportDimensions[1]
[15:11:45] <ratchetfreak> no mention of maintenance1 in the valid usage but there is mention of VK_AMD_negative_viewport_height
[15:11:49] <fazias> sharpneli: yep, but that might happen in shader.
[15:12:05] <fazias> not in cpu code.
[15:12:29] <ratchetfreak> or you have different makeProjection functions
[15:12:36] <sharpneli> fazias: To be honest that sounds like a rather flimsy reason. "We don't want to touch the CPU portion that deals with projection matrices". And it still won't fix any other API.
[15:13:09] <fazias> well the reason is simply, we do everything as platform independent.
[15:13:35] <sharpneli> Except it isn't platform independent if it needs that flip. As it will not work from OpenGL to DX as an example
[15:14:05] <fazias> well, we will make it invisible platform independent then.
[15:14:09] <baldurk> a lot of companies don't care about GL, but might about vulkan
[15:14:16] <ratchetfreak> you can put the flip into the hlsl to glsl translation
[15:14:46] <sharpneli> We do things platform independent too. We just have the concept of engine coordinates and platform NDC. The transformation code just asks the platform implementation (OpenGL, Vulkan, whatever) for the platform specific conversion matrix and adds that in.
[15:15:36] <sharpneli> And to be honest there is just 1 place that does it. The place that calculates projection matrix.
[15:16:08] <fazias> but yeah, sure you could do some kind of function that gives a correction matrice that could be a hlsl function/header.
[15:16:20] <fazias> that's not too bad.
[15:17:01] <sharpneli> It was useful even before. For DX vs OpenGL differences.
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[16:19:36] <sharpneli> I sincerely wonder what was the reasoning to make subpass contents either completely immediate or completely from secondary command buffers
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[16:23:14] <baldurk> I'd guess to support architectures that can't do an actual jump in the command buffer. As it is, you could implement it by having 'inline' subpass contents get recorded separately behind the scenes too, and then each subpass in the command buffer just has a pointer to where the commands in it live
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[16:23:55] <baldurk> I've no idea if that makes any sense for an actual implementation, but having it be all-or-nothing means you don't need to be able to branch and return or copy commands at record time
[16:24:04] <sharpneli> That's how we're doing it. Just came to my mind.
[16:24:22] <sharpneli> Everything always comes via secondary buffers.
[16:25:05] <sharpneli> I wonder if there is any platform where it's more efficient to do it inline if you don't really reuse anything.
[16:26:23] <baldurk> hmm I want to say that either AMD or nv said secondary command buffers are marginally less efficient on the CP, but I can't find a source
[16:27:54] <sharpneli> Yeah. It's just that they're needed for reuse. And that's way more efficient.
[16:28:55] <baldurk> yeh I imagine if you're reusing then the win vastly outweighs it
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[16:38:17] <ratchetfreak> I think it may also reinforce that secondary commandbuffers don't inherit any state (except optionally the framebuffer)
[16:39:36] <sharpneli> Ah yeah, good point
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[16:43:18] <sharpneli> I wonder if there is any extra overhead with having 2 secondary buffers vs 1 that still sets the full state midway trough
[16:43:22] <sharpneli> GPU overhead that is
[16:44:05] <ratchetfreak> depends on if they optimize the state set to
[16:44:29] <sharpneli> On the other hand they can also do that between the two secondary buffers at submit time
[16:44:41] <sharpneli> derp
[16:44:50] <sharpneli> Not submit. But when they're executed on the primary one
[16:44:52] <ratchetfreak> or when the second vkCmdExecuteCommands
[16:44:56] <sharpneli> Exactly
[16:45:37] <ratchetfreak> find state difference between last state of the previous sommand buffer and first state of current command buffer
[16:46:16] <ratchetfreak> which could be part of the metadata of the command buffers
[16:46:18] <sharpneli> Or if it's just setting pointers the overhead is really low as things are already in cache etc
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[17:47:47] <tomaka> You can call vkCmdPushConstants before vkCmdBindPipeline, right?
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[17:51:08] <tomaka> my push constants are no longer working, but I know I'm doing something invalid
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[17:51:25] <tomaka> I was hoping that I could add a quick hack to make them work :-/
[17:51:51] <tomaka> in particular I'm not reporting any push constant range when creating the pipeline layout, and yet I still use vkCmdPushConstants
[17:52:00] <tomaka> it used to work with my nvidia drivers, but it no longer does apparently
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   February 22, 2017  
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