February 14, 2017 
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ZZZzzz…)[10:13:02] *** ImQ009 <ImQ009!~ImQ009@unaffiliated/imq009> has joined ##vulkan[10:13:26] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-148-102-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[10:13:48] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-148-102-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[10:14:10] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-148-102-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[10:14:36] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-148-102-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[10:14:58] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-148-102-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[10:15:24] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-148-102-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[10:15:46] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-148-102-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[10:16:12] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-148-102-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[10:16:34] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-148-102-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[10:17:00] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-148-102-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[10:17:47] *** TechnoCrunch <TechnoCrunch!~TechnoCru@101.100.137.146> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[10:18:09] *** bjz_ <bjz_!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined ##vulkan[10:19:15] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@104.222.140.61> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[10:29:01] *** lpghatguy <lpghatguy!~LPGhatguy@63.153.99.104> has quit IRC (Quit: I'll be back.)[10:34:42] *** slidercrank <slidercrank!~slidercra@unaffiliated/slidercrank> has joined ##vulkan[10:38:44] *** Serializer <Serializer!~quassel@gjalp.dk> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[10:40:00] *** Abelistah <Abelistah!~quassel@gjalp.dk> has joined ##vulkan[10:41:07] *** nitroxis <nitroxis!n@6.nxs.re> has quit IRC (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)[10:42:16] *** nitroxis <nitroxis!n@6.nxs.re> has joined ##vulkan[10:42:50] *** ector <ector!~asdf@37-247-11-157.customers.ownit.se> has joined ##vulkan[10:45:26] *** Abelistah <Abelistah!~quassel@gjalp.dk> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[10:46:00] *** Abelistah <Abelistah!~quassel@gjalp.dk> has joined ##vulkan[10:52:22] <tomaka> intel's vulkan driver doesn't write the number of swapchain images when calling vkGetSwapchainImagesKHR with a null array :-/[10:52:49] <tomaka> but even if I force the right value it doesn't work, so maybe I'm doing something wrong[10:56:26] <tomaka> my monitor is plugged in my dedicated hardware, but vkGetPhysicalDeviceSurfaceSupportKHR returns true for the surface I create so in theory it's ok[11:00:44] <tomaka> no warning or error from the validation layers as usual[11:01:29] <tomaka> I sometimes purposefully introduce an error in my code to check whether the validation layers still work[11:01:43] <tomaka> otherwise I wouldn't be sure[11:08:32] <ratchetfreak> it would be nice to have a vkInsertDebugMessage just to see if you set things up correctly[11:09:37] <sharpneli> tomaka: Does it start to work when you plug it into the connector in motherboard?[11:10:04] <tomaka> sharpneli, I'm a bit too lazy to try that[11:10:56] <sharpneli> It's likely that you cannot get it to work without doing that[11:11:45] <tomaka> that's what I wanted to try in fact[11:12:57] <sharpneli> You're using windows?[11:13:12] <tomaka> yes[11:13:24] <baldurk> ratchetfreak: doesn't vkDebugReportMessageEXT work for that?[11:13:49] *** neurrre <neurrre!~tsuorant@a91-155-31-190.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has joined ##vulkan[11:14:15] *** ravior <ravior!~crapitea@89.121.200.106> has joined ##vulkan[11:14:20] *** tarceri <tarceri!~tarceri@CPE-120-144-40-53.lnse5.win.bigpond.net.au> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[11:16:39] *** tarceri <tarceri!~tarceri@CPE-120-144-40-53.lnse5.win.bigpond.net.au> has joined ##vulkan[11:25:06] <ratchetfreak> indeed it does...[11:28:18] <sharpneli> tomaka: Windows is bit wonky in how it assigns GPU's. If you have multiGPU system and use OpenGL it will assign the GPU the display is attached to where the actual program window first opens.[11:28:41] <sharpneli> tomaka: However if you then drag it to other then Windows will automatically transfer the results across.[11:46:16] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@104.222.140.14> has joined ##vulkan[11:47:10] *** bjz_ <bjz_!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[11:47:36] <tomaka> If this happens, I guess the vulkan implementation is supposed to produce OUT_OF_DATE or something?[11:47:45] <tomaka> no, I don't know[12:00:48] <ratchetfreak> it would require transfering the entire back state to a new physical device so I don't think out_of_date handling would necessarily suffice[12:06:32] <tomaka> it would be a big burden for vulkan app if they have to automatically change device when the window changes its monitor[12:12:19] <sharpneli> I think Windows will just do what it does with Opengl, keep the old GPU but just transfer the image automatically[12:14:48] <ratchetfreak> but it's something the app could do and restore some perf instead of dealing with the slowdown that the presentable image takes[12:22:05] <sharpneli> Sure[12:36:13] *** jkilpatr <jkilpatr!~jkilpatr@2602:30a:c7da:b600:1202:b5ff:fe3b:d41d> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[12:38:27] <fazias> It's quite cool that windows can show the program on screen that is controlled by other gpu[12:39:23] <fazias> although I have witnessed that the transfer takes it's toll on frametime, It's quite big. This was on DX11.[12:39:48] <fazias> It cannot change the device from you.[12:40:34] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsley@d172-218-58-109.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Quit: https://i.imgur.com/qicT3GK.gif)[12:44:06] <sharpneli> Yup[12:50:11] <ratchetfreak> doing the image transfer is going to eat up a lot of the PCIe bus bandwidth[12:53:02] *** bjz_ <bjz_!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined ##vulkan[12:53:30] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@104.222.140.14> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[13:04:34] *** slime <slime!~slime73@blk-215-81-93.eastlink.ca> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[13:06:45] <tomaka> the other day I was wondering if it's a good idea to use at the same time the integrated GPU and the dedicated hardware to make each render every other frame[13:06:56] *** jkilpatr <jkilpatr!jkilpatr@nat/redhat/x-ggsljflregsouoav> has joined ##vulkan[13:06:57] <tomaka> like SLI but without SLI[13:08:42] <fazias> If we get multiadapter in future, I would split the work between them and design it so that only minimal amount of data needs to be transferred between them :p[13:08:56] <fazias> or use the other adapter completely for "async" work.[13:11:45] <sharpneli> tomaka: Not really a good thing. Massive latency and most importantly their performances are massively different[13:12:37] <sharpneli> tomaka: In the end you'd just slow the whole thing down. Even with 0 latency that would slow things down if the integrated GPU is less than half of the more powerful ones performance.[13:12:48] <fazias> If you can pipeline (for example "demo") frames, then you could do that split ![13:13:13] <fazias> render one frame on integrated and 6-8 frames on discrete! linear perf boost![13:13:24] <sharpneli> Dat stutter tho :D[13:13:32] <fazias> not really[13:13:39] <fazias> you can time things well enough on vulkan[13:13:47] <fazias> you could hide that perfectly[13:14:03] <sharpneli> Yeah, it would transform into linear 6-8 frames of latency[13:14:07] <fazias> Although I say from the perspective that you present with only one device[13:14:10] <sharpneli> 96ms of lag <3[13:14:24] <fazias> yes, :D if you can afford to pipeline things and have super amounts of latency[13:14:30] <fazias> like demoscene productions could do[13:14:32] <sharpneli> Yes. Would be ok for noninteractive stuff[13:14:45] <sharpneli> But with anything that has any interactivity 0.1 seconds of extra lag is massive pain[13:14:49] <fazias> sure.[13:14:54] <fazias> it's not a technique for realtime[13:15:17] <sharpneli> For serious usecases for integrated things like physics etc makes a lot of sense[13:15:19] <fazias> thats why I propose that you make the integrated output some of the data that you need.[13:15:28] <fazias> but you make most of the frame on discrete anyway[13:15:34] <sharpneli> Or even things like occlusion culling stuff you'd otherwise do on CPU[13:16:03] <fazias> :D nobody is stopping you from doing occlusion culling on gpu, need to read more how ppl are doing it already.[13:16:22] <sharpneli> It's a fine balance on where you do it[13:21:18] *** bjz_ <bjz_!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Affect compile times?[18:45:45] *** realitix <realitix!~realitix@80.12.37.238> has joined ##vulkan[18:52:10] <fazias> It should only make compile times longer as it makes helper structures through which using the api is easier.[18:53:05] <fazias> It also provides more compiletime checking if you are using the api correctly.[19:01:15] *** jkilpatr <jkilpatr!jkilpatr@nat/redhat/x-frpzuixtsxwpzesn> has joined ##vulkan[19:01:34] *** jkilpatr_ <jkilpatr_!jkilpatr@nat/redhat/x-lwhxnffhotqbtmda> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[19:14:47] *** w-t-h_ <w-t-h_!~chatzilla@72.67.52.110> has joined ##vulkan[19:16:42] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7omx242auk5xjq.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[19:18:46] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7omx242auk5xjq.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[19:19:14] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7omx242auk5xjq.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[19:19:35] *** realitix <realitix!~realitix@80.12.37.238> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[19:20:06] *** ravior <ravior!~crapitea@5-13-136-81.residential.rdsnet.ro> has joined ##vulkan[19:32:44] *** slidercrank <slidercrank!~slidercra@unaffiliated/slidercrank> has joined ##vulkan[19:32:45] <Ralith> it is marginally more convenient for various things[19:47:06] *** derhass <derhass!~derhass@ipservice-092-216-126-046.092.216.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined ##vulkan[19:57:51] *** w-t-h_ <w-t-h_!~chatzilla@72.67.52.110> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[19:59:11] *** joshsyn <joshsyn!~swoorup@14-203-132-32.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[19:59:24] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7omx242auk5xjq.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[19:59:50] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7omx242auk5xjq.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##vulkan[19:59:56] *** afl_ext <afl_ext!~afl_ext3@unaffiliated/afl-ext/x-2796036> has joined ##vulkan[20:05:15] *** ShadowIce <ShadowIce!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has joined ##vulkan[20:06:35] *** w-t-h_ <w-t-h_!~chatzilla@72.67.52.110> has joined ##vulkan[20:10:34] *** ZexaronS <ZexaronS!~zexpc@cpe-194-152-22-45.static.triera.net> has joined ##vulkan[20:12:31] *** vidjogamer <vidjogamer!~vidjogame@cpe-24-160-173-231.columbus.res.rr.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[20:18:59] *** kuldeep <kuldeep!~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[20:32:43] *** GMpow2_2 is now known as GMpow2[20:41:00] *** vidjogamer_ <vidjogamer_!~vidjogame@cpe-107-11-248-226.columbus.res.rr.com> has joined ##vulkan[20:55:58] *** doomlord <doomlord!~textual@host86-148-102-241.range86-148.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[20:58:02] *** tambre <tambre!~tambre@1e9f-485c-f0bc-3dff-0e80-8a31-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[21:01:12] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined ##vulkan[21:23:17] *** lpghatguy <lpghatguy!~LPGhatguy@63.153.99.104> has joined ##vulkan[21:45:05] *** neurre <neurre!~tsuorant@a91-155-31-190.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[21:45:12] *** neurrre <neurrre!~tsuorant@a91-155-31-190.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[22:08:26] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[22:20:15] *** jkilpatr <jkilpatr!jkilpatr@nat/redhat/x-frpzuixtsxwpzesn> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[22:26:54] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined ##vulkan[22:29:30] *** GMpow2 <GMpow2!~5@55d4700a.access.ecotel.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[22:30:39] *** GMpow2srV <GMpow2srV!~goedelmac@55d4700a.access.ecotel.net> has joined ##vulkan[22:35:05] <Cheery> https://www.reddit.com/r/vulkan/comments/5u36km/terraforming_the_vulkan/[22:38:53] <baldurk> that's a really weird post[22:40:39] <Cheery> it can be.[22:41:35] <Cheery> There's a cool thing you could potentially do for a renderer written in dynamically typed language[22:41:45] <Cheery> you can run it through a partial evaluator.[22:43:12] <Ralith> are there any good partial evaluators for any contemporary dynamically typed languages[22:43:28] <Ralith> a good partial evaluator for a real language is a very rare thing[22:43:35] *** slidercrank <slidercrank!~slidercra@unaffiliated/slidercrank> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[22:44:17] <Cheery> I'm planning to do one, that extends over SPIR-V as well.[22:44:35] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[22:44:36] *** w-t-h_ <w-t-h_!~chatzilla@72.67.52.110> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[22:44:48] <Cheery> but it's in my own programming language. Also I won't start until I have things working overall.[22:45:35] <Cheery> I know it's possible because I'm writing my programming language in python, using RPython which is a partial evaluator that also provides you JIT.[22:46:13] <Ralith> that post is very strange; it discusses trivial syntatic transformations and acts like it's addressing hard barriers to entry[22:46:46] <Cheery> there are more under the link.[22:47:22] <Cheery> and I don't think they are trivial unless you have +10 years of experience on programming.[22:48:10] <ratchetfreak> it's the same transforms vkhpp does[22:48:57] <Cheery> no wonder they were so convenient to implement from the xml spec then.[22:49:33] <ratchetfreak> ...[23:01:22] <Cheery> ratchetfreak: have people already built open source over vkhpp that make use of vulkan further easier?[23:01:50] <ratchetfreak> nvidia likes to try[23:02:06] <ratchetfreak> they have another high level abstration on it with ref counting and such[23:02:24] <ratchetfreak> vkhlf they call is[23:03:15] <Cheery> I think I'll continue from looking there then.[23:03:26] *** CaptainLex <CaptainLex!~CaptainLe@12.104.244.5> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[23:03:29] *** jkilpatr <jkilpatr!~jkilpatr@2602:30a:c7da:b600:1202:b5ff:fe3b:d41d> has joined ##vulkan[23:03:55] <Cheery> I would hope to find something for the swapchains, render targets and pipeline.[23:05:38] <Cheery> there's a thing that really bothers me.[23:05:54] <Cheery> my graphics card has unified compute and graphics queue[23:06:27] <Cheery> which saves me from maintaining those separately and stuffing semaphores between compute and graphics.[23:06:47] <Cheery> but AMD cards and probably many others do not have it that way.[23:07:03] <chrisf> well, they support everything on their graphics queue still[23:07:18] <chrisf> but you have the option to offload some things onto less capable queues[23:11:27] <baldurk> yeh the spec guarantees that if there's a graphics queue at all, then there must be a queue that can do graphics + compute. 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