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[00:00:29] <lunaphyte> well - it doesn't really matter if it's "acceptable", really
[00:01:09] <lunaphyte> however, to answer your question literally - no, it's not appropriate [generally dpeaking]
[00:01:56] <degenerate> well i mean, should my server allow it to pass? it seems that with smtpd_sender_restrictions like: reject_unknown_sender_domain, reject_unknown_reverse_client_hostname, reject_unknown_client_hostname
[00:01:57] <lunaphyte> *speaking
[00:02:14] <degenerate> we would only anticipate mail received from other mail servers, not directly from a client (unless they our OUR client)
[00:02:21] <lunaphyte> that's a personal choice each admin needs to make
[00:02:28] <jaybe> If the client is originating from an IP block that is associated with consumet access then it is not uncommon for those addresses to be rejected from directly submitting to the SMTP for
[00:02:46] <lunaphyte> personally, i'd suggest that reject_unknown_reverse_client_hostname and reject_unknown_client_hostname are not particularly safe to use
[00:03:05] <lunaphyte> and that there is the high likelihood of blocking legit mail, unfortunately
[00:03:18] <lunaphyte> degenerate: you can'
[00:03:20] <lunaphyte> bah
[00:03:21] <degenerate> they cut down on the spam so sifnificantly though, i was having serious problems with spam without those
[00:03:43] <lunaphyte> degenerate: you can't really know if they are a "client" like that. it's just not practical
[00:04:06] <lunaphyte> there are plenty of computers that aren't "clients" but which have broken dns
[00:04:15] <lunaphyte> and the inverse as well
[00:04:25] <lunaphyte> plenty of "clients" which have proper dns
[00:04:34] <lunaphyte> it's just not a good metric
[00:06:05] <lunaphyte> i would probably suggest that if you feel like you need to use things like reject_unknown_reverse_client_hostname and reject_unknown_client_hostname to reduce spam, there are other things not being done which should be
[00:06:20] <degenerate> please suggest some things?
[00:06:31] <lunaphyte> !tell degenerate cheatsheet
[00:06:33] <knoba> degenerate: (#1) http://jimsun.linxnet.com/misc/postfix-anti-UCE.txt : A HOWTO for pre-DATA spam control., or (#2) http://rob0.nodns4.us/postscreen.html , a postscreen spam control HOWTO
[00:06:59] <degenerate> thanks!
[00:07:19] <lunaphyte> you might also consider sharing your config and asking for feedback
[00:07:29] <lunaphyte> that would be what i would do, personally
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[00:12:14] <degenerate> main.cf https://pastebin.com/AmeJTBAw
[00:12:25] <lunaphyte> !tell degenerate show_config
[00:12:25] <knoba> degenerate: see !showconfig
[00:12:29] <lunaphyte> !tell degenerate showconfig
[00:12:29] <knoba> degenerate: when asked to provide your config, please provide a SINGLE pastebin (see !pastebin) with postconf -nf and postconf -Mf. if your version is too old for those commands to work (< 2.9), you should upgrade, but see !showconfig_old
[00:13:40] <degenerate> postconf -nf: https://pastebin.com/wYXu79Q3
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[00:15:14] <degenerate> oh wait, that was both, (postconf -Mf starts 1/2 way down, line 119)
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[00:49:04] * rob0 thinks he should rewrite and maintain Jim Seymour's howto, dreadfully out of date
[00:49:29] <rob0> but lacking time/energy ATM
[00:51:22] <rob0> FWIW I think reject_unknown_reverse_client_hostname is reasonably safe, as determined some years back when my provider wonked my PTR. None of the major receivers would accept anything from me, with no PTR.
[00:51:46] <rob0> reject_unknown_client_hostname is of course NOT safe.
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[00:57:02] <degenerate> rob0, so my original issue at the start of this chat was a sender with: `host 72.139.126.115` = 115.126.139.72.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer unallocated-static.rogers.com.
[00:57:15] <degenerate> would this sender pass reject_unknown_reverse_client_hostname?
[00:57:42] <rob0> yes
[00:57:55] <rob0> !reject_unknown_reverse_client_hostname
[00:57:55] <knoba> rob0: Reject the request when the client IP address has no address->name mapping. See http://postfix.org/postconf.5.html#reject_unknown_reverse_client_hostname
[00:58:15] <degenerate> and fail reject_unknown_client_hostname because unallocated-static.rogers.com does not resolve to 72.139.126.115 ?
[00:58:18] <rob0> that means there is no PTR at all
[00:58:32] <rob0> !reject_unknown_client_hostname
[00:58:32] <knoba> rob0: Reject the request when 1) the client IP address->name mapping fails, 2) the name->address mapping fails, or 3) the name->address mapping does not match the client IP address. See http://postfix.org/postconf.5.html#reject_unknown_client_hostname
[00:58:59] <degenerate> i see, so reject_unknown_client_hostname is a lot stricter. ok.
[01:00:51] <rob0> right
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[02:15:18] <degenerate> the http://jimsun.linxnet.com/misc/postfix-anti-UCE.txt has a section for postfix 1.x and 2.x
[02:15:20] <degenerate> mypostfix is 3.x
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[02:37:02] <degenerate> hahaha what a mess, i tried following this guide and implementing the settings ended up blocking all my good clients. ehhhh fun times
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[10:09:26] <tenaglia> how can I log to files on systemd/journald systems with Postfix < 3.4? Is it more of a journald question that should be asked elsewhere?
[10:13:27] <colo-work> I *guess* you're supposed to log to syslog, and use your syslogd's powers to log into file(s), according to your needs
[10:50:21] <tenaglia> OK I managed to do it from rsyslog
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[11:09:37] <pj> !logs
[11:09:37] <knoba> pj: Postfix logs to the mail facility of syslog. You can usually find them with ls /var/log/mail*; otherwise see your system's syslog server documentation. Also see !nologs and !mung
[11:10:15] <pj> tenaglia: this doesn't change with journald. journald simply takes over the syslog facility and what happens to the log messages after that is out of postfix's hands.
[11:12:20] <pj> tenaglia: I should warn you to set RateLimitInterval=0 and/or RateLimitBurst=0 in /etc/systemd/journald.conf otherwise journald will drop log entries when postfix gets busy.
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[11:41:42] <tenaglia> pj: indeed my rsyslog sends all mail.* to /var/log/maillog by default. Thanks for the tip about the rate limiting!
[11:42:52] <tenaglia> I somehow didn't think to look at /var/log in the first place - I am being systemd-ified damn
[11:43:20] <tenaglia> !nologs
[11:43:21] <knoba> tenaglia: Nothing in your mail logs commonly means one of two things: either your syslogd is broken (try restarting it), or the connections are not coming to your server. Check your firewall/networking and the DNS for the domain in question. also see !logs.
[11:43:24] <tenaglia> !mung
[11:43:24] <knoba> tenaglia: Mash Until No Good : the art of obfuscating data which ultimately results in unintentional consequences such as making diagnostics impossible. If you think you must hide details, see !have2mung
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[11:49:11] <tenaglia> I guess I will have to remove also rsyslog rate limits in order to have all the logs to a file
[11:50:47] <pj> I don't think rsyslog rate limits.
[11:51:12] <colo-work> it can, so it depends on your config
[11:51:29] <colo-work> but I'm not aware of any popular distro's default config doing so
[11:51:30] <pj> ok, I haven't yet seen a default config that does that, though.
[11:51:33] <tenaglia> That's an interesting post about both journald and rsyslog https://www.rootusers.com/how-to-change-log-rate-limiting-in-linux/
[11:52:20] <pj> personally I recommend you just disable rate-limiting it's a stupid idea to think that just because a program logs a lot that you might not want to see some of those log entries.
[11:52:39] <pj> whoever came up with that idea is just brain dead.
[11:52:44] <tenaglia> +1
[11:53:23] <pj> it bit me last week when I wanted to find the logs for a particular email message and they had been "suppressed" by journald.
[11:53:25] <colo-work> it's a defense mechanism against shitty programs
[11:53:52] <colo-work> (not all programs that hit limits are shitty, of course :))
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[11:54:04] <pj> better defense mechanism is to put your log files on a separate partition.
[11:54:23] <colo-work> fs space exhausting isn't the only ceiling you can hit, though
[11:54:29] <pj> ...along with proper log rotation.
[11:54:46] <colo-work> (shipping logs to a central point isn't uncommon these days)
[11:55:03] <pj> right, but if you're doing that then you are far from a default config.
[11:55:13] <pj> and you can configure rate limiting yourself if you want.
[11:55:46] <colo-work> you always should, I think. that's the crux with "default policies" - they should cater to everyone's needs, but really just cannot, because that's impossible :)
[11:55:46] <pj> distro maintainers really should not take it upon themselves to enable rate-limiting for you.
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[11:56:34] <pj> the thing is that too many distros are falling under the trap of trying to protect the user against themselves.
[11:56:34] <colo-work> people who had their syslogd blown out by a shitty program logging 100s of 1000s of messages a second would probably argue in the different direction :)
[11:57:09] <colo-work> I agree, but with today's users/admins/devops, that's very warranted (at least in my perception)
[11:57:32] <colo-work> very few folks in IT seem to really know what they're doing %)
[11:57:48] <pj> I prefer to let them shoot themselves in the foot, at least they will learn that way instead of submitting all the rest of us to the lowest common denominator.
[11:58:06] <pj> and if they don't learn ... more work for the rest of us.
[11:58:09] <colo-work> it's the best option to choose in the long run, yes
[11:58:59] <pj> can you tell that I never agreed with: alias rm=rm -i
[12:02:33] <colo-work> hehe!
[12:02:45] <colo-work> using '\rm' can be made a habit
[12:02:56] <colo-work> (but I'm not on distros that have that default alias, so I'm safe)
[12:03:04] <colo-work> (it would definitely annoy me, though)
[12:04:08] <pj> they usually do it to rm and mv
[12:05:22] <pj> it's easy enough to remove the aliases, but if you're just temporarily logging into someone else's account you can't really do that.
[12:06:59] <colo-work> yes, but you can always use the "\$your_executable" syntax in bash
[12:07:13] <colo-work> truth be told, most of the time i `rm` something, I do it with -f in effect anyway
[12:07:36] <pj> yeah, but always using -f for rm is not a good habit to be in either.
[12:07:44] <colo-work> https://paste.debian.net/plain/1093812
[12:07:50] <colo-work> is what I was referring to
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[12:08:50] <pj> right, I understand that one.
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[14:48:00] <radicate> Hey guys! I'm pretty new to Postfix and I'm not sure what the prerequisites are for what I'm trying to achieve
[14:48:24] <radicate> But I'm basically trying to configure Postfix to send email messages without a relay server or anything
[14:49:45] <radicate> I'm currently playing around with postfix on a docker container that I have on my local machine
[14:50:19] <radicate> And I'm trying to send email messages to external inboxes, it could be gmail or whatever - I don't even mind if they end up in the spam box for now
[14:50:56] <radicate> Is it possible to send external messages from my local machine like that though? (without configuring any public domains yet or anything)
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[14:52:56] <Kelsar> radicate: most mailservers will block dialups IPs. also you likely can#t fix your ptr record
[14:53:04] <rob0> Sending without a relay gets to be very difficult, bah
[14:53:12] <Kelsar> that said, it is what postifx does by default
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[14:56:57] <rob0> !tell radicate port_25_block
[14:56:58] <knoba> radicate: Many consumer-grade ISPs (and some which claim to be for business, such as Godaddy) block outbound port 25/tcp traffic to prevent abuse from their network. If your ISP does this, you should see the !basic and !relayhost factoids. Or, upgrade to business-class service (or change ISP if you already had it.)
[14:57:06] <rob0> 12:52 < Kelsar> radicate: most mailservers will block dialups IPs. also you likely can#t fix your ptr record
[14:57:27] <radicate> Ahh gotcha
[14:57:57] <radicate> Well I guess that if I used a simple postfix setup on a more.. hosting-dedicated environment it shouldn't be blocked, theoretically
[14:58:08] <radicate> AWS?
[14:58:50] <radicate> Also, how could I know if my ISP is indeed blocking port 25?
[14:58:54] <rob0> AWS I think has some hoops for you to jump through to send mail, but potentially, yes
[14:59:25] <radicate> Currently, all I see when I execute "mailq" is messages with a "unknown mail transport" error
[14:59:35] <radicate> You think that's related? or i just messed up the configuration in general?
[14:59:36] <rob0> It's simple. Look up MX for any mail domain and see if you can reach that host's port 25.
[14:59:49] <rob0> it's messed up, yes
[14:59:56] <rob0> !basic
[14:59:57] <knoba> rob0: http://www.postfix.org/BASIC_CONFIGURATION_README.html : a good starting place for Postfix beginners, many common questions are answered here.
[15:00:10] <radicate> Awesome, I'll look into it
[15:00:14] <radicate> Thanks a bunch rob0
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[15:39:11] <radicate> rob0 I tried making connections to various hosts on port 25, most of them worked - the others denied connection due to "Bad MTA reputation"
[15:39:47] <radicate> But looks like this shouldn't be a problem, I'm just not sure why I'm receiving the unknown mail transport error, I don't see any logs either (no mail.log file)
[15:40:05] <radicate> Do you perhaps know what bad configuration could cause this error?
[15:40:21] <rob0> fix the broken logging first, that problem is outside Postfix3
[15:40:41] <rob0> *Postfix
[15:40:47] <rob0> !nologs
[15:40:47] <knoba> rob0: Nothing in your mail logs commonly means one of two things: either your syslogd is broken (try restarting it), or the connections are not coming to your server. Check your firewall/networking and the DNS for the domain in question. also see !logs.
[15:41:59] <radicate> Could you elaborate on the connections not coming to the server?
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[15:42:06] <radicate> I see that the messages are in the queue
[15:42:10] <rob0> The error probably means your default_transport does not exist, maybe removed from master.cf, or lots of other possibilities.
[15:43:02] <rob0> why?
[15:44:02] <rob0> If you have already ruled out "connections not coming to the server", what is there to elaborate?
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[15:44:41] <radicate> I thought I may have misunderstood what you mean by connections not coming to the server
[15:44:53] <radicate> But alright, I'll look into the default_transport
[15:45:36] <rob0> DO fix the logging, because nothing will be easy without logs.
[15:46:04] <rob0> That really needs to be the top priority. We won't/can't help without logs.
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[15:48:03] <radicate> Yeah it's terrible, lol - I'll see why.. I think it may just be because I'm running a very lightweight docker container
[15:48:16] <rob0> somehow I knew it was docker
[15:48:23] <tenaglia> lol
[15:48:37] <rob0> oh, you did say that at first
[15:48:40] <radicate> I think I've mentioned it before! haha
[15:49:07] <radicate> But nice one!
[15:50:43] <rob0> Another thought is possible broken services(5) name resolution, but I think that would have been "name or service unknown" rather than "unknown mail transport".
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[16:13:17] <radicate> rob0 phew, managed to get some logging
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[16:13:21] <radicate> mail.err: postfix/smtp[1884]: fatal: unknown service: smtp/tcp
[16:15:18] <rob0> broken services(5) name resolution
[16:16:06] <radicate> Kudos to you, hehe
[16:18:13] <rob0> It might be as simple as copying in a recent /etc/services file, but there are other ways to break this.
[16:20:31] <jink> According to http://echelog.com/logs/browse/postfix/1295218800 from 2011-01-17 rob0 thinks it could be a chroot problem. :P
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[16:21:40] <rob0> right, if chrooted, [queue_directory]/etc/services :)
[16:21:41] <colo-work> hehe
[16:22:18] <colo-work> maybe you should trash your "minimal docker container", and work with a real OS underneath
[16:22:32] <rob0> Docker did not exist in 2011!
[16:23:06] <colo-work> I am aware of that, but minimal chroot environments did - and they have the same problems, as we've just seen :)
[16:23:07] <jink> It's weird how fast technology moves, and yet, stuff like postfix remains forever.
[16:24:24] <colo-work> there are certain areas in tech that reach very high apparent development speed, while actually going in circles ;)
[16:25:44] <rob0> I just meant, "good old days" :)
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[16:44:55] <radicate> rob0 Thanks so much! I've managed to get it to work eventually
[16:45:21] <radicate> Just had to copy many files into the /var/spool directory, because as you said, it is chrooted
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[16:46:50] <radicate> Now I'll do what I I do every night, try to take over the world!
[16:47:13] <radicate> Lol, anyway thanks again rob0. really appreciated.
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[16:48:00] * rob0 is now known as Pinky ;)
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[16:59:57] <radicate> Haha.
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