March 3, 2019 
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March 3, 2019 [00:00:13] <lunaphyte> you're welcome to pursue your quarreling in ##email[00:00:39] <lunaphyte> or really, some security related channel, tbh[00:00:42] <cybrNaut> actually it's #security where you should be asking for "Security by obscurity" meaning[00:00:52] *** c^29 <c^29!~c^@p151003-ipngn200302yamaguchi.yamaguchi.ocn.ne.jp> has joined #postfix[00:00:53] <lunaphyte> i'm not asking for anything[00:01:07] *** jgjorgji9 <jgjorgji9!~jgjorgji@179.89.133.237> has joined #postfix[00:01:08] <cybrNaut> you should - you've misused the term[00:01:25] *** c^29 <c^29!~c^@p151003-ipngn200302yamaguchi.yamaguchi.ocn.ne.jp> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:01:37] <lunaphyte> i understand you believe that[00:01:44] <cybrNaut> preventing needless disclosure is not in the slightest "Security by obscurity"[00:01:48] *** Noxz0 <Noxz0!~Noxz@42.232.100.186> has joined #postfix[00:02:00] <cybrNaut> it's not even the common misuse.. it's completely unfounded[00:02:01] <lunaphyte> good luck![00:02:19] *** ggVGc <ggVGc!~ggVGc@zaq3d2ea196.zaq.ne.jp> has joined #postfix[00:02:21] <blackflow> obscurity is a valuable layer in the security onion or else military wouldn't bother with camo outfits. totally not valuable standalone. $.02[00:02:27] *** ggVGc <ggVGc!~ggVGc@zaq3d2ea196.zaq.ne.jp> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:02:51] <lunaphyte> please be respectful of the channel topic, and of others here in the channel[00:03:05] *** Noxz0 <Noxz0!~Noxz@42.232.100.186> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[00:03:06] <cybrNaut> blackflow: that understanding is actually closer than how it was used here[00:04:14] <cybrNaut> i mean, there's not even a shred of rationale for an amateur to confuse disclosure mitigation with "security by obscurity"[00:05:53] *** jgjorgji9 <jgjorgji9!~jgjorgji@179.89.133.237> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[00:06:46] *** ItsAVortex <ItsAVortex!~ItsAVorte@2600:380:6847:45dd:a48a:9342:dab3:b60c> has joined #postfix[00:11:58] <lunaphyte> appeal to self-authority is always a fun logical fallacy[00:15:42] <cybrNaut> you need to learn what appeal to authority (anyone's authority) means before you start inventing your own fallacy from it see => http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html[00:15:56] <cybrNaut> "This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject."[00:16:17] <lunaphyte> bzzt! incorrect, again :([00:16:21] <lunaphyte> oh well[00:16:24] <lunaphyte> over and out![00:16:38] <cybrNaut> of course, having an MS in infosec is legit - "security by obscurity" is infosec 101[00:17:06] <cybrNaut> so you've failed to establish that an MS in infosec is insufficient[00:18:00] <cybrNaut> /who/ the authority is doesn't matter, because the basic component of the fallacy is missing[00:19:44] <cybrNaut> you've failed to make a single logical claim with sound reasoning, but feel free to keep trying[00:26:21] *** snelly <snelly!~snelly@209.97.164.192> has joined #postfix[00:26:26] *** snelly <snelly!~snelly@209.97.164.192> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:28:55] <blackflow> well you're not failing to mention you've got some degree there... that's the appeal to authority. and you know the old joke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog#/media/File:Internet_dog.jpg[00:32:20] *** evilbot23 <evilbot23!~evilbot23@2804:2728:100:685:f493:e2c3:3a0d:2fc2> has joined #postfix[00:32:39] <cybrNaut> blackflow: if you know what "security by obscurity" means, then you'd know that lunaphyte misused the term and that my definition is what is understood by security pros, which then only supports my claim. And certainly you don't know what appeal to authority is; i've already linked to the definition did you miss that? Or do you not accept nizkor.org?[00:33:15] <cybrNaut> nizkor is a good source for logical fallacy imo[00:35:13] <cybrNaut> ..and not just because Nizkor supports what I'm saying; they've been an good high-ranking source for fallacy info for over a decade now[00:35:32] <blackflow> I know what the fallacy is. it isn't what you quoted, that's why lunaphyte said you were incorrect. the fallacy is in non existence of logical connection between premise and conclusion. ie. something is true because <authority> said so. that's teh fallacy.[00:35:56] <blackflow> neway... I didn't mean to facilitate offtopicity here, I'm out too of this convo ;)[00:36:41] <cybrNaut> it's not, because use of authority is /not/ in itself fallacy -- it must be a *unqualified* authority, as Nizkor states[00:36:51] *** evilbot23 <evilbot23!~evilbot23@2804:2728:100:685:f493:e2c3:3a0d:2fc2> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[00:36:59] <blackflow> oh that's the wrong part[00:37:57] <cybrNaut> you have logically sound "appeal to authority" (when the authority is qualified), and you have "appeal to authority /fallacy/", when you're using Clint Eastwood to back a claim that a toothpaste is effective[00:38:26] *** ItsAVortex <ItsAVortex!~ItsAVorte@2600:380:6847:45dd:a48a:9342:dab3:b60c> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[00:38:26] <cybrNaut> "This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. " <= how are you missing that?[00:38:33] *** ItsAVortex <ItsAVortex!~ItsAVorte@2600:380:6847:45dd:a48a:9342:dab3:b60c> has joined #postfix[00:38:58] <blackflow> that's the incorrect part[00:39:13] <cybrNaut> so you disagree with Nizkor?[00:39:20] <cybrNaut> it makes no sense to[00:39:36] <cybrNaut> of course an authority on a topic can support arguments[00:39:57] <blackflow> "authority" has no place in syllogism[00:40:15] <cybrNaut> it's actually a fallacy to wrongfully claim fallacy as you are[00:40:23] * blackflow wanders away looking for something to eat[00:41:26] <cybrNaut> subject matter experts give ideas that advance the discussion, of course you don't dismiss people referencing them as "appeal to authority"[00:43:10] <cybrNaut> and the proof of the mischaraterizing is in front of us: that is, it's bluntly obvious that someone who has an MS is going to be taught the basic entry-level knowledge ("security by obscurity" is a very entry-level concept)[00:46:50] *** nighty- 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the connection)[03:48:23] *** kutio <kutio!~kutio@42-145-128-10.rev.home.ne.jp> has joined #postfix[03:48:38] *** kutio <kutio!~kutio@42-145-128-10.rev.home.ne.jp> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[03:52:07] *** pigoz11 <pigoz11!~pigoz@79.105.169.160> has joined #postfix[03:52:26] *** noefk <noefk!~leon@shuzo.dexterous.org> has quit IRC (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in)[03:52:33] *** pigoz11 <pigoz11!~pigoz@79.105.169.160> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[04:44:20] *** pbek11 <pbek11!~pbek@2804:2728:101:6e0:f091:de1c:8887:6527> has joined #postfix[04:49:06] *** pbek11 <pbek11!~pbek@2804:2728:101:6e0:f091:de1c:8887:6527> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)[04:53:54] <thumbs> sigh.[05:02:46] <yvyz> I thought this channel was more about postfix and less about my english composition 2 class.[05:03:22] <yvyz> And you would be referring to "appeal to authority" which is a fallacy[05:03:28] <yvyz> </part>[05:08:43] *** drakevr1 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(Remote host closed the connection)[14:33:58] *** xavierb29 <xavierb29!~xavierb@148.0.146.16> has joined #postfix[14:38:35] *** xavierb29 <xavierb29!~xavierb@148.0.146.16> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[14:49:41] <cybrNaut> yvyz> And you would be referring to "appeal to authority" which is a fallacy <= sometimes it's a fallacy, sometimes not; just like the slippery slope. BTW, this has already been addressed with the Nizkor reference which no one was able to counter[14:53:11] * jimpop sets smtputf8_enable=yes[14:54:28] <yvyz> ^ lol. love it. But yes, one may appeal to authority and be found that using it in the way of "well he said so" is not founded in good argument[14:54:36] <cybrNaut> yvyz> I thought this channel was more about postfix and less about my english composition 2 class. <= the discussion was about /postfix security/, which is very much related to postfix[14:54:47] <yvyz> It is, though, a core syllogistic fallacy[14:55:04] <cybrNaut> lol, it wasn't an argument to begin with[14:55:17] <yvyz> I only showed up half way through[14:55:21] <cybrNaut> it wouldn't matter if it was a fallacy[14:55:23] <yvyz> Gonna shoot the bystanders?[14:55:26] <cybrNaut> that's the problem[14:55:35] <yvyz> Am I using the internet wrong now?[14:55:40] <yvyz> Should I call my mommy?[14:55:56] <cybrNaut> bystanders that recycle defeated claims, of course[14:55:59] <cybrNaut> pay attention[14:56:08] <cybrNaut> yes, call your mom[14:56:09] <yvyz> !topic[14:56:09] <knoba> yvyz: Error: "topic" is not a valid command.[14:56:37] <yvyz> Ahh, well, for being extra edge-lordy this morning. I award you 0 points.[15:01:40] <jimpop> seriously tho, call your mom. My mom passed years ago, she would have been 80 today.[15:02:57] <yvyz> Yea, I feel it.[15:03:07] <yvyz> Much <3 to you and your mother.[15:22:06] *** janus15 <janus15!~janus@221.156.144.82> has joined #postfix[15:22:21] *** janus15 <janus15!~janus@221.156.144.82> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[15:28:38] *** ]SiB[ <]SiB[!~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/sib/x-9459575> has joined #postfix[15:39:37] *** ]SiB[ <]SiB[!~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/sib/x-9459575> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[15:49:57] *** hamishmack4 <hamishmack4!~hamishmac@2a03:f680:fff2::1fb> has joined #postfix[15:54:56] *** hamishmack4 <hamishmack4!~hamishmac@2a03:f680:fff2::1fb> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[15:57:04] *** jpalmer19 <jpalmer19!~jpalmer@2804:2728:101:514:297c:3e91:a744:11f9> has joined #postfix[15:58:24] *** ptx015 <ptx015!~ptx0@197.0.204.69> has joined #postfix[15:58:28] *** ptx015 <ptx015!~ptx0@197.0.204.69> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[15:58:36] *** 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