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[00:00:59] *** Church- is now known as sedatesock
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[00:24:02] <Neo4> I can't remove double check
[00:24:04] <Neo4> :(
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[00:25:57] <Neo4> there might have to be two DKIM check pass?
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[00:32:00] <Neo4> there should be one check, I only sent to gmail
[00:32:11] <Neo4> gmail uses spamassassin too
[00:32:30] <Ellenor> your mum uses neoassassin
[00:36:29] <Neo4> Ellenor: listen, I understood what is going on
[00:37:22] <Neo4> Ellenor: listen careful, why when I send from thunderbird I got only one DKIM check passed
[00:37:22] <Neo4> and when using roundcube I got double check?
[00:37:42] <Neo4> who know?
[00:37:48] <Ellenor> it means roundcube is checking twice
[00:38:57] <Neo4> Ellenor: it web clietn check DKIM?
[00:39:31] <Neo4> Ellenor: squirrelmail also double check
[00:39:44] <Neo4> but thunderbird once
[00:40:31] <Kelsar> no, they don't
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[00:44:05] <Neo4> Ellenor: Kelsar: this is mail with double https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/knbGw9qMhT/
[00:44:10] <Neo4> source from roundcube
[00:46:50] <Neo4> original email there double signed
[00:48:01] <Neo4> it could be DKIM bag...
[00:49:41] <Neo4> this with one signed, when I send over thunderbird
[00:49:41] <Neo4> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/SfhJKpckvB/
[00:50:30] <Neo4> difference localhost client and remote
[00:50:56] <Neo4> something force make two signed for webmails
[00:51:18] <Neo4> any suggestions?
[00:57:56] <jimpop> Neo4: check the postfix mailinglist archive for a recent discussion on the solution
[01:06:30] <lunaphyte> tell Neo4 getting_help
[01:06:36] <lunaphyte> oopsies
[01:06:39] <lunaphyte> !tell Neo4 getting_help
[01:06:39] <knoba> Neo4: "getting_help" : before asking your question, read the !relevant_logs and !showconfig factoids, and prepare a single pastebin containing all of that data. if you don't understand what this means, or if you need help doing this, please let us know. also see !pastebin
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[01:12:39] <thumbs> lunaphyte: that won't help, I'm afraid.
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[01:20:45] <thumbs> lunaphyte: it's just that user. He's not capable of running a server.
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[01:44:28] <Neo4> I did using this instruction, couldn't have helped http://postfix.1071664.n5.nabble.com/dkim-appair-twice-td96200.html
[01:44:44] <Neo4> anyway sing twice
[01:45:02] <Neo4> I'll try put my old postfix config
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[02:27:09] <c3bolla> how can I test my authentication to my relayhost?
[02:29:01] <c3bolla> keeps saying "Untrusted TLS connection established"
[02:29:10] <c3bolla> SASL is on
[02:29:17] <thumbs> TLS has nothing to do with authentication.
[02:32:36] <Neo4> c3bolla: telnet ip_server 143
[02:32:58] <thumbs> and don't listen to Neo4 either.
[02:33:20] <Neo4> c3bolla: port 25 or 587
[02:35:55] <Neo4> c3bolla: you can use telnet
[02:36:00] <c3bolla> so let me see if I understand thumbs: an IMAP client connects to my SMTP server which is postfix. It authenticates to the server as a user with SASL, potentially over TLS if enabled/possible. After establishing a connection it send its message, and Postfix queues it for delivery. Then, Postfix acts as an SMTP client, authenticates via SASL to a remote SMTP relay host (defined in main.cf), preferrably over TLS. It delivers the
[02:36:00] <c3bolla>  message, and closes the session
[02:36:58] <thumbs> c3bolla: why would postfix using SASL to talk to other mx?
[02:37:05] <c3bolla> how does it
[02:37:28] <thumbs> c3bolla: mx to mx communication is done on port 25, and SASL isn't required. TLS is not either.
[02:38:01] <c3bolla> but if you are trying to authenticate to a mailbox, ala Gmail...
[02:38:41] <thumbs> !tell c3bolla gmail
[02:38:41] <knoba> c3bolla: "gmail" : Google Mail issues?: http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=81126
[02:39:03] <thumbs> c3bolla: irrelevant. It's still a mx-to-mx communication.
[02:39:42] <c3bolla> don't most MX require TLS?
[02:39:50] <lunaphyte> of course not
[02:39:55] <lunaphyte> what gave you that impression?
[02:40:03] <lunaphyte> an mx *cannot* require encryption
[02:40:24] <lunaphyte> that would violate the rfcs
[02:40:33] <tuxick> yet :)
[02:40:43] <c3bolla> but they can offer it
[02:40:48] <lunaphyte> to be clear, a public mx cannot require encryption
[02:41:00] <lunaphyte> indeed, they very much should offer it
[02:41:07] <lunaphyte> many [even most perhaps] do.
[02:41:43] <lunaphyte> "an IMAP client connects to my SMTP server which is postfix"
[02:41:49] <lunaphyte> technically, this is wrong
[02:41:58] <lunaphyte> an imap client connects to an imap server.
[02:41:59] <tuxick> google might well do the same thing they did to https
[02:42:17] <lunaphyte> you might have meant to say "an email client connects to..."
[02:42:18] <tuxick> and start requiring it
[02:42:42] <lunaphyte> additionally, mail clients don't connect to smtp servers
[02:42:48] <thumbs> tuxick: too bad for the servers using openssl 0.9.8
[02:42:49] <lunaphyte> they connect to submission servers
[02:43:37] <c3bolla> ok, lunaphyte, but that's why postfix is commonly configured with dovecot, which is an IMAP client
[02:43:39] <c3bolla> yes?
[02:43:46] <thumbs> no, an IMAP server.
[02:43:48] <lunaphyte> hmm?no
[02:44:02] <lunaphyte> dovecot is an imap server
[02:44:06] <c3bolla> that's what I meant
[02:44:30] <lunaphyte> i'm not sure what is meant by "that's why"
[02:44:31] <thumbs> c3bolla: you should proof-read what you type, then.
[02:44:51] <c3bolla> forgive me, i'm trying to think this through
[02:44:57] <c3bolla> and the IMAP server turns around and hands off to the SMTP server
[02:45:04] <lunaphyte> what?
[02:45:07] <lunaphyte> turns around?
[02:45:12] <lunaphyte> hands off what?
[02:45:30] <lunaphyte> imap servers don't communicate with smtp servers, no.
[02:48:02] <c3bolla> lunaphyte  https://pasteboard.co/HmAipOB.png
[02:48:59] <thumbs> c3bolla: where did you get that from?
[02:49:23] <c3bolla> some yt video
[02:49:32] <tuxick> nice diagram
[02:49:45] <thumbs> nice effort, I suppose. But not completely accurate.
[02:50:12] <c3bolla> where can I find something like that that is accurate
[02:50:21] <c3bolla> clearly I am not understanding this process
[02:50:22] <tuxick> haven't seen any regarding postfix :)
[02:51:04] <tuxick> there's no imap there anyway
[02:51:52] <tuxick> it would be there on the right accessing users mailbox
[02:52:55] <Neo4> guys, I have found error
[02:52:57] <Neo4> http://www.postfix.org/postconf.5.html#non_smtpd_milters
[02:53:17] <Neo4> what is it non_smtpd_milters ?
[02:53:38] <Neo4> when I commented this row DKIm check once in both
[02:55:32] <Neo4> this this https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/VvXhKytPB6/
[02:55:39] <Neo4> what is milter in postfix?
[02:57:40] <Neo4> what is difference between smtpd_milters and non_smtpd_milters ?
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[03:05:35] <lunaphyte> c3bolla: those are all components that are internal to postifx, that you need not concern yourself with
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[03:17:10] <thumbs> c3bolla: I would concern myself with basics before diving in this architecture.
[03:18:00] * cpm concerns himself with rob0
[03:20:26] <thumbs> cpm: probably fighting fires.
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[03:47:48] <c3bolla> ok
[03:48:23] <c3bolla> what should I go over? Parts of the documentation is confusing to me, there are some things that aren't explained in full
[03:50:39] <c3bolla> perhaps there is alternative documentation that is recommended that is more comprehensive?
[03:51:40] <thumbs> c3bolla: perhaps tell us, exactly, what part of the documentation is confusing you.
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[03:55:56] <Neo4> smtpd_milters = inet:localhost:12301
[03:55:56] <Neo4> non_smtpd_milters = inet:localhost:12301
[03:56:12] <Neo4> this two responce for error
[03:56:31] <Neo4> roundcube or squirrelmail messages passed over two milters
[03:56:37] <Neo4> not and without
[03:56:59] <Neo4> when I remove one I can't pass test remoutly or when send from localhost
[03:57:25] <Neo4> who know why roundcube passed two milterce, and how privent this?
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[04:24:20] <Neo4> I managed to cope problem by using this https://serverfault.com/questions/475416/is-there-a-reason-why-dkim-signs-every-mail-twice
[04:24:40] <Neo4> I see I have two
[04:24:40] <Neo4> smtp and submission
[04:25:19] <Neo4> I put after smtp empty milter
[04:25:21] <Neo4> and works
[04:25:32] <Neo4> what that means?
[04:26:38] <Neo4> what is difference between
[04:26:38] <Neo4> smtp      inet  n       -       -       -       -       smtpd
[04:26:38] <Neo4> and
[04:26:38] <Neo4> submission inet n       -       n       -       -       smtpd
[04:26:41] <Neo4> ?
[04:27:12] <Neo4> smtp accept messages and submission send?
[04:27:21] <Neo4> to send
[04:27:27] <Neo4> yes?
[04:32:11] <lunaphyte> go read the documentation
[04:32:12] <lunaphyte> man 5 master
[04:32:34] <Neo4> lunaphyte: this is services
[04:32:38] <Neo4> smtp and submission
[04:32:57] <Neo4> both inet , inet means accessible over TCP
[04:33:15] <Neo4> both use command smtpd
[04:33:53] <thumbs> Neo4: can you stop using #postfix for your running commentary?
[04:33:57] <Neo4> lunaphyte: I am used to guessing when customize something
[04:34:08] <thumbs> bad idea.
[04:34:14] <lunaphyte> that's rather foolish behavior
[04:34:38] <Neo4> thumbs: why? our math teacher said this is very good method
[04:34:59] <Neo4> in science it's apply very often
[04:35:04] <lunaphyte> that's rather unfortunate
[04:35:42] <Neo4> lunaphyte: not it's like research, but it's not streamline when exists documentation and you can't read and save time
[04:36:27] <thumbs> Neo4: I'm going to have to insist that you read the documentation and stop using this channel for your running commentary.
[04:36:37] <thumbs> Neo4: persist at your own risks
[04:36:54] <Neo4> thumbs: I read documentation and don't understand anything.
[04:37:18] <Neo4> I would rather somebody explained me :)
[04:37:27] <thumbs> Neo4: ask smarter questions then.
[04:38:09] <pj> I guess that 4x3 = 30, I'm sure your math teacher would approve.
[04:39:01] <Neo4> thumbs: I asked not smart questions for people who is not enough smart. but as I see I can't got explicit answer that will satisfy me. It could mean that my questions are very difficult.
[04:39:06] <Neo4> :)
[04:39:17] <pj> Neo4: if there is something you don't understand then ask a pointed question about what it is, eg: "the docs say "blahblah" but I don't understand what that means, can you help me?"
[04:40:02] <thumbs> Neo4: no, it doesn't mean that your questions are "very difficult". It means that they are nonsensical.
[04:40:14] <pj> if you can't grasp that then perhaps you should be listening more to your English teacher and less to your Math teacher.
[04:40:22] <Neo4> pj: it's higher math, not simple school, and teacher is doctor of science, he is better knwo what is good
[04:40:43] <thumbs> Neo4: in short, you're flooding this channel with idiocy / nonsense.
[04:41:07] <thumbs> (I'm referring to your statement, to be exact, and not your person)
[04:41:12] <thumbs> *statements
[04:41:14] <pj> Neo4: I was making a point, which seems to have gone right over your head.
[04:41:15] <Neo4> thumbs: I think it this room many who can't even answer on my simple fool questions even
[04:41:29] <thumbs> Neo4: you're entitled to your silly opinions.
[04:41:56] <Neo4> thumbs: ok, I'm going to go to sleep or make break for a while
[04:42:10] <thumbs> Neo4: that's the first smart comment you made today.
[04:42:26] <Neo4> thumbs: no, do you think here people very good understand postfix? I think not
[04:42:36] <Neo4> many students, like me
[04:42:37] <thumbs> Neo4: you're mistaken, again.
[04:42:52] <rob0> trolling is not needed, thanks
[04:43:20] <Neo4> I am here, yes? Other people are like me, we are resemble on each other.
[04:43:26] <Neo4> I'm not mistaken
[04:43:39] <pj> oh, right, because you're here everyone here must be just like you.
[04:44:07] <pj> try telling your Math teacher PHD that he's just like you because he's in the same classroom as you.
[04:44:20] <Neo4> ok, passed. Will solve and test this problem later. I'm tired, It have taken 5 hours to figure out how to cope it ...
[04:46:25] <Neo4> pj: no, we are used to compare other people with ourselfs, and even this is very wrong, frequently other people even more silly than you, I frequently expect much from other people thinking they are like me.... Doing so we could overestimate others.
[04:46:45] <rob0> There are a good number of participants in this channel who are quite familiar with mail and with Postfix.  But I tire of repeating stuff that is clearly documented, especially when it seems that the one asking questions has not looked there.
[04:47:01] <Neo4> better way it's others are worse than you, You will always right. This is the best position. :)
[04:47:13] * thumbs blinks
[04:47:47] <pj> Neo4: I'm not going to defend myself to you, if you think you're as good as me and others in this channel then you obviously can't benefit from our help, so you might as well look elsewhere.
[04:48:00] <Neo4> rob0: I said like me, I in this channel might 6 months, and not of course much , but anways encounter something new
[04:48:22] <Neo4> even me who have been hard learnign postfix for 6 months
[04:48:23] <thumbs> Neo4: I would argue that you haven't learned anything in 6 months, to be fair.
[04:48:31] <rob0> If you like to interpret my silence as ignorance, that won't upset me.
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[04:49:29] <thumbs> Neo4: part of the reason why you can't learn anything is that you assume that you know better than most folks, refuse to listen to the advice from other folks, and refuse to read the documentation.
[04:50:07] <thumbs> that narcissistic approach will not help you in the long run.
[04:50:22] <Neo4> rob0: yes, I can, if somebody silence it means he doesn't have what to say and waht to pretend to be clever. Better silence than say something stupid :)
[04:51:00] <Neo4> thumbs: I don't understand advices and documentation, I have read it a few times :(
[04:51:21] <thumbs> Neo4: again, you need to ask smart questions about the part of the documentation you don't grasp.
[04:51:38] <thumbs> Neo4: saying "I don't understand" over and over will not help you.
[04:52:40] <Neo4> it helps, If you notice i ask now new questions, now how set up postfix, dovecot, DKIm, many others things
[04:52:59] <thumbs> Neo4: I'm sorry, none of your rambling so far qualifies as a smart question.
[04:53:49] <Neo4> if somebody give advice it doesn't mean that recipient won't accept it, yes he might not react instantly after some time he will realize and accept it
[04:54:22] <thumbs> Neo4: you've yet to absorb any advice that was given to you.
[04:54:26] <Neo4> I frequently didn't listen immediately advices only over a few time
[04:54:45] <Neo4> thumbs: it you seem
[04:54:57] <thumbs> Neo4: can you rephrase that in English?
[04:55:06] <Neo4> it seems you
[04:55:15] <thumbs> Neo4: that's not English either.
[04:56:05] <Neo4> thumbs: you seem that I don't absorb
[04:56:35] <Neo4> thumbs: in Enlglish after it seem we shoudl sue to have or other to
[04:56:47] <Neo4> I'm not useful use this rule
[04:56:49] <thumbs> Neo4: I'm afraid that what you blurted isn't English either.
[04:57:31] <Neo4> thumbs: and I think you are either aren't native English?
[04:58:03] <rob0> So ignorance is the ONLY reason for silence?  That is a strange world, in which you live.
[04:58:14] <thumbs> Neo4: my mother tongue is English. What you are typing isn't English.
[04:58:35] <thumbs> (or it's the text from a bad google translate job)
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[04:59:18] <Neo4> thumbs: i though you are also foreigner, it looks like you are not sure speak in English, I thought you are from germany
[04:59:56] <Neo4> thumbs: ok, I read english grammar, there it seem, don't use it this way, like I  am used to using
[05:00:10] <rob0> thumbs, it's that little black mustache under your nose, it makes you look German.
[05:00:23] <thumbs> Neo4: do us a favour - don't question our ability to master the English language before you achieve a basic grasp over it.
[05:00:30] <thumbs> rob0: aha!
[05:00:37] <Neo4> rob0: no, just he speaks not like native
[05:01:19] <rob0> oh, sorry to all our Deutchefriends for that tasteless joke
[05:01:53] <Neo4> thumbs: my English very high I don't feel dificulties speak in chat, or reading any literature, I have never speak in voice only
[05:04:02] <rob0> I saw a photo of a poster of Mrs. Merkel where someone filled in a little mustache under her nose.  I thought it was amusing, but then, I am easily amused.
[05:04:43] <thumbs> rob0: what does a parrot and a poet have in common?
[05:04:56] <rob0> pot?
[05:06:32] <thumbs> I should really make those less obvious.
[05:08:01] <rob0> It's okay, I am easily amused.
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[05:27:28] <pj> Neo's English is better than his grasp of postfix, but that's not saying much.
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[05:29:19] <thumbs> I had much better expectations from Neo, but then again, he does say "whoa" a lot.
[05:29:35] <thumbs> *for
[05:36:31] <keanne> for some, asking *good* or relevant question is really quite a challenge, specially if english is not their mother tongue. I even know someone who can't effectively use google to look for answers because he can't even compose a relevant search query to begin with.
[05:37:43] <rob0> yes, I try to be tolerant when there seems to be a language barrier
[05:58:47] <pj> well, he can spot native English speakers as well as he can spot Postfix experts.
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[10:21:47] <codingfree> Hello! I'm having some troubles with Opendkim + Postfix, is this the right place to ask about it?
[10:24:14] <Alver> Depends on your actual question, but there's a reasonable chance people here can help, yes
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[10:35:16] <pj> !tell codingfree ask
[10:35:16] <knoba> codingfree: "ask" : (#1) Please regard http://workaround.org/getting-help-on-irc and don't ask to ask, just ask. (after you've read 'getting help'), or (#2) Also see !poll
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[10:39:13] <codingfree> Thanks, I'm just stucked at this point: I have generated my public and private key to sign my emails and the milter seems to be processing the mails and signing them. The public key can be found in the DNS record. So, I expected everything to work fine, but I am having the following error when the sig is verified: fail (signature doesn't verify)
[10:39:27] <codingfree> Full output and files here: https://serverfault.com/questions/913267/opendkim-fail-signature-doesnt-verify
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[10:40:10] <codingfree> So my question is, what may cause a bad sign of the emails?
[10:40:46] <pj> codingfree: there are various reasons why this could be the case, it could be that your DNS records aren't set up correctly, or it could be that the message or certain headers in it were modified after the signing.
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[10:41:27] <pj> at any rate, this is likely not going to be topical for postfix, unless you find out that the problem is postfix modifying the message after signing.
[10:41:28] <codingfree> The original message doesn't seem to be modified, it was always "init"
[10:41:29] <codingfree>     init'0D''0A'
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[10:41:57] <pj> codingfree: some of the email headers are included in the signed content as well.
[10:42:19] <codingfree> I didn't know that part, hmmm
[10:43:43] <codingfree> I have an idea, I could add myself to the CC to check what is being received
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[10:49:31] <codingfree> pj, you gave me a good start point, it seems that the headers in DKIM are being removed (at least, I understood that they should be present,in the RFC 4871):
[10:49:32] <codingfree>         h=Date:To:Subject:From:From;
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[11:38:23] <dl8bh> still was not able to get doveadm backup for one account working again
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[11:40:29] <dl8bh> http://paste.debian.net/hidden/a1bdb94a/
[11:41:01] <dl8bh> what I did by mistake: edit one dovecot-acl file in the respective mailbox
[11:41:15] <dl8bh> but even reverting the change (copying the file from backup) did not help
[11:41:28] <dl8bh> is there any way to rebuild the acl for that account?
[11:48:43] <dl8bh> ok, just trashed all the doveadm-acl files for that account
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[12:33:37] <ychaouche> Hello #postfix
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[12:36:46] <ychaouche> I received a dmarc report, presumably from google, but it is an attached zip file. Is that normal ?
[12:37:01] <ychaouche> mail headers : https://gist.github.com/ychaouche/318e911a8c1bc02554792df4574ed2af
[12:37:49] <dl8bh> ychaouche: Received: from messagerie.-radio.dz
[12:38:06] <ychaouche> no that's a typo on my part, I redacted it.
[12:38:13] <ychaouche> fixed it.
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[12:38:25] <dl8bh> ah, ok, so part of your domain
[12:38:40] <ychaouche> yes :)
[12:38:58] <dl8bh> looks like a mail from a google-server
[12:39:23] <ychaouche> my server seems to have validated that e-mail own DKIM
[12:39:34] <ychaouche> I'm just surprised for the .zip format
[12:39:42] <ychaouche> as it's typically used to spread marlware, no ?
[12:40:02] <dl8bh> zip is often used to fool antivirus
[12:40:26] <tuxick> wonder if that still works at all
[12:40:27] <dl8bh> but I never got a dmarc report so I can not verify if its normal
[12:40:51] <dl8bh> even clamav supports ZIP scanning
[12:41:04] <FinalX> I've received reports from Google for years, they're always zipped.
[12:41:16] <ychaouche> ok, good to know, thanks FinalX
[12:41:46] <ychaouche> by precaution I just did a zipinfo -l to see the contents of the zip before opening it, it contains a single xml file.
[12:42:13] <FinalX> sender is noreply-dmarc-support at google dot com, subject is "Report domain: $domain Submitter: google.com Report-ID: $report_id", contents of the zip are .xml file(s)
[12:43:07] <FinalX> Microsoft does the same thing, but has hotmail.com as submitter, and dmarcrep at microsoft dot com as sender.
[12:43:34] <FinalX> And Yahoo also uses the same format(s).
[12:44:08] <ychaouche> oops, usually firefox has a nice display of xml files, but in this case it just stripped the tags and put content next to each other, sepearated by mere spaces :(
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[13:15:23] <merlin1991> on my server I have postfix listen on the physical interface and on the a bridge managed by libvirt, now on reboots postfix fails to start because it can't (yet) bind the bridge ip, is there a way to bind a interface name or otherwise bind without failing?
[13:16:53] <merlin1991> hm actually it is the multiinstance wrapper that fails with configure-instance.sh[931]: postconf: fatal: parameter inet_interfaces: no local interface found for 192.168.122.1
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[13:25:33] <dakar> so my mail server has a new ip. all relevant dns records are updated (nothing to update for dkim, right?).
[13:25:59] <dakar> some mail that is forwarded to gmail gets rejected because "very low reputationof the sending ip address"
[13:28:36] <dl8bh> dakar: it may be, that pre-owners of this IP-address are responsible for this poor reputation
[13:28:47] <dl8bh> or even multiple servers in the same subnet
[13:29:34] <dakar> i'll be honest and mention the range is mostly home and small offices users.
[13:30:02] <dakar> i've checked with most common dns blacklists, and the ip isn't listed in any of them
[13:30:32] <dl8bh> yes, this might be a bad neighborhood for a mailserver
[13:30:45] <dakar> and not all emails get rejected. some go through to gmail just fine
[13:31:04] <dl8bh> maybe they have some kind of rate-limit in place?
[13:31:09] <dl8bh> depending on your reputation?
[13:31:23] <dakar> i wouldn't know. i was hoping to get more information from the more experienced people here.
[13:31:59] <dakar> and i just opted for a package in which they dont guarantee a static ip either, so it might get changed in the future too...
[13:32:50] <dakar> my other uplink have had the same one for a couple of years, so i'm betting this one would stick too
[13:32:52] <dl8bh> so no control over your reverse-ptr?
[13:33:08] <dakar> dl8bh no control over the reverse ptr either way, even if it was static
[13:33:46] <dakar> i _could_ set up some vps on aws or something to proxy everything, but the whole point is not to give the corporations access to my emails -_-
[13:34:31] <dl8bh> are you able to set valid spf records in your situation?
[13:34:39] <dakar> yes, i have valid spf records in place.
[13:35:08] <dakar> but then again, we're talking about emails that are being forwarded from whatever@mydomain to account at gmail dot com
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[13:35:59] <dl8bh> is your server valid for the spf settings of mydomain?
[13:37:18] <dl8bh> or better question: whatever@mydomain -> your new server -> gmail ?
[13:37:50] <dakar> no, say you send me an email from you@dl8bh, it arrives are myserver, which transfer it to acct@gmail
[13:38:07] <dl8bh> thats risky
[13:38:17] <dakar> we are not talking about emails that originate from myserver and are being sent to gmail
[13:38:33] <dl8bh> because, if I deliver spam to your box, which isnt detected and filtered by your server, it will be delivered to gmail
[13:38:39] <dakar> true.
[13:38:44] <dl8bh> which might lower your spam reputation over there
[13:38:49] <dakar> true.
[13:39:11] <dakar> it's only a couple of gmail mailboxes and i havent had problems in years, so i'm fine for now
[13:39:28] <dakar> there's also a bunch of antispam on my end that's been doing great work so far
[13:39:40] <dl8bh> is "myserver" a legit sender for "yourdomain" in case of spf?
[13:39:47] <dl8bh> ah, ok
[13:40:27] <dl8bh> if I set restrictive settings for me@dl8bh, you are not allowed to redirect this mail to gmail
[13:40:45] <dl8bh> because your server is not authorized in my published spf settings
[13:40:56] <dl8bh> this might be the case for some domains and for others not
[13:41:08] <dl8bh> could explain the different behaviour from case to case
[13:43:56] <Kelsar> imho better use pop3/imap pull
[13:43:59] <dakar> dl8bh true, but i havent had this problem in the past.
[13:44:28] <dakar> Kelsar i rather not
[13:44:33] <dl8bh> imapsync might be a solution (like Kelsar proposed)
[13:45:25] <dl8bh> I did this to backup my external mail accounts to my private server
[13:49:17] <dakar> im not saying it's a bad idea, but it doesn't fit my needs
[13:49:44] <dl8bh> in this case, I am out of ideas :)
[13:50:17] <dl8bh> (beside pointing mydomain directly to gmail)
[13:51:07] <dakar> i'm mostly looking for ideas or recommendations how to improve that ambigious reputation i guess
[13:51:34] <dakar> i think so anyway.
[13:51:52] <dakar> dl8bh the main issue is that the recipients at gmail aren't sophisticiated users. i need to deliver the emails period
[13:54:09] <dakar> otherwise i would have forced them to use myserver for their email usage..
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[15:12:46] <ychaouche> dakar: did you enroll in the postmaster.google.com service ?
[15:13:11] <ychaouche> It will give you some insights into when did your reputation became bad
[15:13:58] <ychaouche> I have the same problem here and doing the same mistakes too : some of my users forward their e-mails to gmail and I have no dkim.
[15:14:24] <lunaphyte> dakar: do not forward your email off to third party mail systems.  that is a no no
[15:15:25] <lunaphyte> merlin1991: don't start postfix until the system is ready
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[15:18:52] <merlin1991> lunaphyte: i'd be happy todo that instead, but so far I found no sensible way to delay the postfix start until after the bridge is ready
[15:20:06] <dl8bh> merlin1991: no systemd on your machine?
[15:20:39] <merlin1991> there is, but how do I express a bridge x is available and has ip assigned as a service requirement?
[15:21:25] <dl8bh> isn't there a target in systemd that brings up the bridge?
[15:21:28] <dl8bh> you can depend on?
[15:22:04] <dl8bh> I think, even with system v init you could do the same
[15:22:44] <merlin1991> issue is the bridge is brought up by libvirt
[15:22:52] <merlin1991> systemd has no knowledge of it
[15:24:36] <dl8bh> you can even set up a job for libvirt in systemd
[15:24:42] <dl8bh> thats what init-systems are for
[15:25:20] <merlin1991> yep they start things, but if things themselfes start other things they can't express that as a dependency in their own graph
[15:25:37] <merlin1991> and libvirt is "started" before the bridge gets started from it
[15:26:24] <dl8bh> then you will need to check in your postfix systemd service if the bridge is up and maybe loop until this happens
[15:27:01] <merlin1991> systemd has a sys-devices-virtual-net-virbr0.device i could depend on, just need to loop on the ip assignement then since I'd probably still race that
[15:27:27] <merlin1991> was hoping there is a cleaner way instead of a busy loop
[15:28:30] <trurl> speaking of... any experiences on how long microsoft needs to unblock an ip to deliver mails to live/outlook after submitting this stupid form?
[15:29:50] <merlin1991> last time I did that it took about 2 days
[15:30:04] <merlin1991> no answer from them though, it suddenly worked
[15:35:36] <lunaphyte> merlin1991: is there a particular reason you're explicitly setting inet_interfaces?
[15:36:09] <lunaphyte> also, it's unlikely multiple instances are needed.  they rarely are
[15:36:14] <merlin1991> lunaphyte: yes, the host has a few bridges that should not have access to the smtp
[15:36:40] <merlin1991> but are routed over the host
[15:37:18] <lunaphyte> merlin1991: i'd suggest doing that via the service definitions instead
[15:37:45] <merlin1991> lunaphyte: I'm confused, what is "that" now?
[15:38:00] <lunaphyte> binding to specific interfaces/addresses
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[15:42:46] <dakar> ychaouche i haven't.  first time i hear about it.
[15:43:35] <dakar> lunaphyte there's no real alternative. we're talking about 3 users doing that and low amount of emails. a dozen a day or so total
[15:43:46] <lunaphyte> that's got nothing to do with it
[15:43:56] <lunaphyte> of course there are alternatives.  don't be ridiculous
[15:45:14] <dakar> lunaphyte i'm open to hear about anything relevant.
[15:45:31] <dakar> ychaouche i just looked, and it seems like that's only relevent from emails originating from my own server. i have no problem with those.
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[15:47:28] <dakar> lunaphyte the users demand to use gmail and they cant be bothered with setting up imap pulling or something similar. they need to get emails set to specific accounts at @mydomain.
[15:47:45] <lunaphyte> then use google for your mx
[15:47:55] <dakar> but they are only a couple out of a dozen users.
[15:48:01] <dakar> the rest use the local dovecot
[15:48:04] <merlin1991> lunaphyte: it took a second to start making sense for me, but ofc bind the socket in systemd then handoff to postfix, is that what you mean?
[15:50:17] <lunaphyte> i mean specify that detail in the postfix service definition in master.cf
[15:54:17] <merlin1991> wouldn't it still fail to start then?
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[15:56:25] <trurl> merlin1991: darn, i submitted it on the 18th...
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[16:05:49] <ychaouche> trurl: I would be very much interested in the form
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[16:08:04] <trurl> ychaouche: http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=614866
[16:08:18] <ychaouche> dakar: I thought the emails were from your server. What happened then ? I must have misunderstood your problem.
[16:08:31] <ychaouche> thanks trurl
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[16:20:52] <dakar> ychaouche i'm relaying a couple of emails incoming to users@mydomain, to accts@gmail
[16:23:44] <rob0> oh, that is a bad idea
[16:23:54] <rob0> !mantras
[16:23:54] <knoba> rob0: "mantras" : 1. do not accept mail that you do not intend to deliver. 2. do not drop mail. 3. do not use wildcards or catchalls. 4. do not forward mail to outside/third party systems
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[16:25:15] <rob0> it will mess up when you try to forward spam to gmail.  They will consider you the source of the spam, and they will block you accordingly.
[16:25:20] * cpm forwards rob0 outside
[16:25:28] <rob0> oh, that is a bad idea
[16:25:34] <cpm> heh
[16:25:51] <rob0> it's too hot outside, I just got back from my walk
[16:25:58] <cpm> yeah, I've come to see this gmail addiction as a very bad thing all in all. wish it would go away.
[16:26:26] <cpm> for a while, I welcomed it, made my life easy for a few years, but it's ugliness is really starting to shine.
[16:26:35] * rob0 was never afflicted, don't have gmail
[16:27:19] <cpm> yer on the innertubes, you are afflicted. g=internet
[16:27:55] <rob0> yeah, I have issues
[16:28:01] <cpm> it's good that it hasn't colonized your mind (yet)
[16:28:36] <cpm> I've finally gotten $boss to come around on his gmailisms
[16:28:48] <cpm> and I did it without whining very much.
[16:29:28] <cpm> he just kinda woke up and realized that his entire internet presence was curated by g-bots based on combing thru his entire internet activity.
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[16:30:04] <dakar> rob0 lunaphyte have said the same.
[16:30:09] <dakar> rob0 but what are the alternatives?
[16:30:20] <dakar> relevant ones though, because imap pulling isnt.
[16:31:13] <rob0> that's pop, not imap, and sorry, this is not a problem I have had to solve
[16:32:12] <rob0> maybe just configure other mailstores in these users' MUAs?
[16:33:08] <dakar> what does that even mean
[16:33:13] <rob0> When you don't control your users, and they're not techies, you have to accept that some things can't be done.
[16:33:34] <dakar> or that i have no other choice than to risk having gmail hate me
[16:33:36] <dakar> i mean..
[16:33:57] <rob0> The only other thing I can suggest is that you pay Google to host your mail.
[16:34:06] <dakar> i cant come up and tell them they cant use gmail. i can't com up and say theyre not getting emails.
[16:34:27] <dakar> i am only forwarding the emails of 2 users out of more than that.
[16:35:20] <Alver> You *can* make forwarding to gmail work, but it's not foolproof
[16:35:27] <rob0> and you can't do what you're hoping to do, so you have to pick the least bad of several bad choices.
[16:36:41] <rob0> Alver, the "not foolproof" part is the catch, because even one forwarded spam can cause problems.
[16:36:54] <dakar> i totally agree, it's bad practice. i'm not arguing over that.
[16:37:17] <dakar> but them not using or them not receiving their emails is not an option here..
[16:37:34] <Alver> rob0: uhuh. It's particularly tricky, and even when you do everything possible, you'll still have a genuine mail end up in spam once in a while.
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[16:37:55] <Alver> But at least since I added SRS, it's sorta-kinda doing fine now, here
[16:37:57] <dakar> practically, it's been like that for a couple of yearas at least and i had no problems with google.
[16:38:39] <rob0> oh, another idea: use a MLM to forward their mail, each user = one mailing list
[16:39:53] <rob0> it's ugly and overengineered, but it's one of your bad choices
[16:40:04] <dakar> rob0 does this practically mean my server will re-send an email that's originating from itself, instead of literally forwarding the incoming email?
[16:41:52] <junixbr> hello people
[16:42:07] <junixbr>  I'm trying to setup sender-dependent sasl authentication, but I don't care where the connection comes from or is going
[16:42:20] <junixbr> I'd like only prevent fake from. I try smtp_sender_dependent_authentication = yes, but I think that is not enough, is lacking something?
[16:42:20] <tuxick> why do people insist on forwarding mail to gmail?
[16:42:33] <dakar> tuxick because people insist on using gmail.
[16:42:38] <tuxick> why?
[16:42:46] <tuxick> they WANT they mails parsed?
[16:42:51] <tuxick> their
[16:42:54] <dakar> i wouldnt know.
[16:43:21] <tuxick> well if they insist, they have to accept the conditions
[16:43:30] <cpm> just another fwiw, viz gmail forwarding. gmail does a horrific thing, in that it will *accept* mail that it will not deliver, and then bounce it. If you are forwarding those, it turns into a real knot for you.
[16:43:32] <tuxick> that's how things work
[16:43:37] <rob0> so why not just use gmail?  Why not pay to have them host your mail, if gmail are so wonderful?
[16:43:52] <tuxick> #aol rob0
[16:43:55] <dakar> cpm i havent had problems so far, i dk.
[16:44:02] <cpm> you will
[16:44:14] <tuxick> unless your spamfilter is very anal
[16:44:20] <dakar> rob0 if you have 2 users out of 12039712938712938 users. would you let google host everything?
[16:44:41] <tuxick> i'd re-educate 2 users
[16:44:44] <cpm> I mean, no one still bounces mail unless some really bizarre thing happens, , except gmail. bastards.
[16:44:57] <dakar> tuxick im doing my job.
[16:45:01] <tuxick> gmail does bounces?
[16:45:07] <cpm> yup
[16:45:11] <tuxick> wow
[16:45:20] <tuxick> that's lame :)
[16:45:29] <cpm> yup
[16:45:48] <cpm> it's not common, but it happens
[16:46:08] <cpm> (please don't ask how I know this, , , please, , just be kind)
[16:47:16] <rob0> 12039712938712938 users, that is a lot.
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[16:47:49] <cpm> yeah, holy crap, it's like 1 more than 12039712938712937
[16:48:05] <dakar> anyway, i'm open for ideas. educating people isn't part of my job.
[16:48:33] <rob0> I'd tell the two that they can use gmail if they want, but I won't forward user-at-example.com to gmail
[16:48:52] <cpm> yeah, pretty simple really. Don't do it.
[16:48:58] <Alver> If it's corporate mail, it's often forbidden, luckily.
[16:48:59] <cpm> IE policy.
[16:49:11] <dakar> rob0 that's not an option.
[16:49:20] <Alver> Most corps I worked for would actively block forwarding, or fire you on the spot if you did it anyway.
[16:49:34] <rob0> With 12039712938712938 users, you should have plenty of leverage.  Good luck.
[16:49:45] <dakar> rob0 there's just one ceo.
[16:49:58] <Alver> Ha
[16:50:04] <FinalX> In our company we check for forwards to outside of our company by employees, and they get one warning. It's usually new employees that try it.
[16:50:08] <dakar> why are even arguing over this? this isn't an option...
[16:50:08] <Alver> Familiar :D
[16:50:12] <rob0> so explain the problem to the ceo
[16:50:47] <rob0> Nobody will be able to come up with any magic easy solution to this.
[16:50:49] <tuxick> at previous job i kept warning management about the forwards, until hotmail started blocking us for weeks
[16:50:58] <tuxick> and even then they tried to blame me
[16:51:11] <tuxick> was a good reason to quite
[16:51:12] <tuxick> quit
[16:51:41] <rob0> yep, quit could be a good choice
[16:51:50] <tuxick> "it worked ok for all this time!"
[16:52:01] * tuxick does the dylan sound
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[17:28:18] <ychaouche> dakar: I missed the part where you explained why importing mail from gmail using IMAP is not an option
[17:28:26] <ychaouche> or POP3
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[18:05:09] <tuxick> yosafbridge: the only excuse i keep hearing is that it means having an actual mailbox
[18:05:39] <tuxick> tbh i don't see the problem but ok
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[19:23:12] <hispeed> Hi I want to configure postfix with fetchmail (getting in mails, via postfix to groupware Kopano) I have as a sample 1 domain but i will have more domains in the future. Currently it's running on zarafa but I don't know how I got it working ;=). https://pastebin.com/rzmybzd2 this is my main.cf from postfix. Something is wrong: fetchmail: SMTP error: 451 4.3.0 <hispeed at swissdesigns dot ch>: Temporary
[19:23:12] <hispeed> lookup failure -> reading message webXXXX at webXXXXX dot login-12.hoststar.ch:1 of 1 (5926 header octets) not flushed | Fetchmail used to work before I changed the main.cf in postfix. Yes sasl_passwd and sender_relay are a little special but I think it's the correct way. I have not converted them with postmap?!?!
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[20:02:53] <hispeed> someone here?
[20:04:42] <tuxick> you shouldn't be touching postfix for that, at all
[20:06:13] <hispeed> hmmm okey and how should I do that?
[20:07:40] <tuxick> can't remember fetchmail syntax, but you fetch mail and tell it to deliver to local account
[20:08:29] <hispeed> but for sending out i need postfix?
[20:08:38] <tuxick> sending out??
[20:09:03] <tuxick> ?goal
[20:09:16] <tuxick> !goal
[20:09:16] <knoba> tuxick: "goal" : describe your goal, not what you think the solution is
[20:09:59] <tuxick> crystal ball was shipped yesterday, but it's coming all the way from china
[20:10:44] <hispeed> I want to have in Kopano (1 user Mailbox) where I get all e-mails from different e-mail adresses. But I want to send from every different e-mail adress outgoing mails
[20:11:23] <hispeed> later i will use it mobile and there I can probably just use 1 e-mail for sending because of z-push. but that's later a topic.
[20:13:08] <tuxick> wel fetchmail has nothing to do with sending, and "sending from" is always a bit vague
[20:13:33] <tuxick> not sure how kopano likes that
[20:13:44] <tuxick> especially the webui
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[20:14:50] <hispeed> It should be working as far as I know confirmend thru kopano user forum from an another user
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[20:29:16] <Minnebo> I have a question about SPF
[20:29:44] <Minnebo> If I have like a:server1.domainx.com a:server2.domainx.com in my spf
[20:29:53] <Minnebo> can I replace that with include:domainx.com ?
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[21:18:25] <pj> !tell hispeed getmail
[21:18:25] <knoba> hispeed: "getmail" : (#1) getmail(1) has a more sane design than fetchmail(1). Handing already-delivered mail off to a MTA always seemed silly to me., or (#2) Getmail is a secure, flexible, reliable and easy-to-use mail retriever for POP3 and IMAP4. It delivers mail into a Maildir or mbox file. It is designed to replace other mail retrievers such as fetchmail. See http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/.
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   May 24, 2018
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