March 30, 2019 
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March 30, 2019 [00:00:28] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:04:20] *** hellozee <hellozee!~hellozee@116.73.36.92> has joined ##OpenGL[00:06:02] <fr3tz0r> derhass: thx :) , impossible to pass stack pointers in that case then.[00:06:32] *** s0laster <s0laster!~needs@119.160.9.93.rev.sfr.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)[00:07:32] <derhass> there is no stack either[00:07:50] *** KAHR-Alpha <KAHR-Alpha!~Alpha@2a01cb0d024a6600dc725e1df7510b81.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined ##OpenGL[00:09:00] *** realz <realz!~realz@unaffiliated/realazthat> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)[00:09:47] *** Nicmavr <Nicmavr!~Nicmavr@unaffiliated/nicmavr> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[00:10:51] *** KAHR-Alpha is now known as Guest27513[00:10:53] *** KAHR-Alpha_ <KAHR-Alpha_!~Alpha@2a01cb0d024a6600dc725e1df7510b81.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined ##OpenGL[00:11:08] *** Alpha_ <Alpha_!~Alpha@2a01cb0d024a6600dc725e1df7510b81.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[00:11:31] *** Nicmavr <Nicmavr!~Nicmavr@unaffiliated/nicmavr> has joined ##OpenGL[00:13:19] <fr3tz0r> derhass: true[00:14:12] *** Guest27513 <Guest27513!~Alpha@2a01cb0d024a6600dc725e1df7510b81.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[00:15:14] <Yaniel> you can have in variables though[00:15:25] <Yaniel> *out and inout variables[00:15:31] <Yaniel> which work a bit like pointers[00:16:29] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has joined ##OpenGL[00:23:32] <fr3tz0r> Yaniel:yeah they are nice, u made me think of how I can do this in another way :)[00:28:34] *** krystcich <krystcich!~krystcich@088156132232.dynamic-ww-04.vectranet.pl> has quit IRC (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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ZZZzzz…)[02:16:18] *** trit <trit!~trit@pool-100-36-33-252.washdc.fios.verizon.net> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[02:16:42] *** trit <trit!~trit@pool-100-36-33-252.washdc.fios.verizon.net> has joined ##OpenGL[02:17:20] *** trit <trit!~trit@pool-100-36-33-252.washdc.fios.verizon.net> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[02:20:04] *** trit <trit!~trit@pool-100-36-33-252.washdc.fios.verizon.net> has joined ##OpenGL[02:20:11] *** zalt_ <zalt_!~lambda443@unaffiliated/lambda443> has joined ##OpenGL[02:23:10] *** zalt <zalt!~lambda443@unaffiliated/lambda443> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[02:23:14] *** trit <trit!~trit@pool-100-36-33-252.washdc.fios.verizon.net> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[02:23:18] *** zalt_ is now known as zalt[02:28:22] *** fr3tz0r <fr3tz0r!~snigelfar@185.183.146.196> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[03:09:34] *** slime <slime!~slime73@blk-215-81-93.eastlink.ca> has quit IRC (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)[03:11:41] *** acksys- <acksys-!~acksys@ip72-208-121-9.ph.ph.cox.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[03:13:31] *** acksys <acksys!~acksys@ip72-208-121-9.ph.ph.cox.net> has joined ##OpenGL[03:14:35] *** pie___ <pie___!~pie_@unaffiliated/pie-/x-0787662> has joined ##OpenGL[03:27:24] *** hugh-adolph <hugh-adolph!uid18705@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-azihtoudsmzyglhd> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[03:28:33] *** KAHR-Alpha_ <KAHR-Alpha_!~Alpha@2a01cb0d024a6600dc725e1df7510b81.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[03:35:41] *** groton <groton!~groton@unaffiliated/groton> has quit IRC (Quit: groton)[03:40:44] *** groton <groton!~groton@unaffiliated/groton> has joined ##OpenGL[03:54:37] *** ratchetfreak_ <ratchetfreak_!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[04:07:20] *** jesse1010 <jesse1010!~user@68-113-87-53.static.leds.al.charter.com> has joined ##OpenGL[04:07:44] <jesse1010> can anyone give me links to screenshots of opengl desktop apps?[04:08:20] <derhass> like what?[04:08:25] <jesse1010> anything[04:08:37] <jesse1010> something like this[04:08:39] <jesse1010> https://jaxenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/fms.png[04:08:45] <jesse1010> thats a javafx app[04:09:24] <derhass> what's the point of a screenshot of _anything_ ?[04:09:35] <jesse1010> i want to see what is possible[04:09:58] <Stragus> There's no limit to what is possible. If you saw it somewhere, you can draw it with OpenGL[04:10:16] <jesse1010> ok[04:10:19] <Stragus> Old early screenshot of a desktop-like thing I wrote a while ago: http://www.bricksync.net/brickmanager001.png[04:10:30] *** Jonas__ <Jonas__!~Jonas__@unaffiliated/jonas/x-7723671> has joined ##OpenGL[04:10:31] <jesse1010> i am interested in doing cross platform apps using c++ and opengl[04:10:45] <derhass> I could make a screenshot of my chromium broswer window[04:11:09] <jesse1010> can opengl be used with c?[04:11:29] <Stragus> OpenGL can be used with about any language, and the API is C[04:11:39] <derhass> I fear that you totally misjudge what OpenGL even is[04:11:51] <jesse1010> no, I do know.[04:11:59] *** Jonas___ <Jonas___!~Jonas__@unaffiliated/jonas/x-7723671> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[04:12:10] <jesse1010> what about webassembly -> webgl[04:12:30] <derhass> what about it?[04:12:37] *** Jonas__ <Jonas__!~Jonas__@unaffiliated/jonas/x-7723671> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[04:12:43] <jesse1010> is this possible[04:13:00] <derhass> is what possible?[04:13:01] *** Jonas__ <Jonas__!~Jonas__@unaffiliated/jonas/x-7723671> has joined ##OpenGL[04:13:06] <jesse1010> what is the relationship of webgl to opengl[04:13:23] <Stragus> I know someone compiled my C GL code to webassembly, never touched it myself[04:13:40] <Stragus> WebGL is a lobotomized version of real GL[04:13:56] <derhass> webgl is a stripped-down variant of a stripped-down variant of GL[04:14:18] <derhass> which most of the time is translated to other apis like d3d[04:14:55] * Stragus wonders if x86+windows means "most of the time"[04:15:15] <derhass> it does[04:15:23] <Stragus> Well, mobile is pretty big these days[04:16:01] *** groton <groton!~groton@unaffiliated/groton> has quit IRC (Quit: groton)[04:16:05] <derhass> sure[04:16:22] <derhass> but ultimately, nobody uses webgl[04:39:24] <mandeep> jesse1010: you probably want a gui framework rather than opengl[04:40:15] <mandeep> derhass: what about games on the web?[04:43:17] *** diwr <diwr!~diwr@unaffiliated/diwr> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[04:52:11] *** groton <groton!~groton@unaffiliated/groton> has joined ##OpenGL[05:03:30] *** LunarJetman <LunarJetman!LunarJetma@5ec16e1a.skybroadband.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)[05:03:47] *** Twipply <Twipply!~Twipply@unaffiliated/twipply> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[05:18:11] <dahlia> I use webgl[05:18:55] <dahlia> *bows head in shame and crawls away....[05:26:52] <jesse1010> is it possible to do an opengl cross platform app?[05:27:58] <Stragus> OpenGL runs on many platforms, either the full real thing, stripped-down or lobotomized[05:34:24] <dahlia> I have an app which runs on linux, windows, mac (sometimes), ios, andriod, web[05:34:46] <dahlia> but uses older (2.x-ish) opengl[05:41:36] <jesse1010> dahlia: web? so you use webassembly?[05:41:46] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[05:42:14] *** pie__ <pie__!~pie_@unaffiliated/pie-/x-0787662> has joined ##OpenGL[05:44:19] <dahlia> jesse1010: I use c++ and emscripten[05:44:37] <dahlia> emscripten can output webassembly[05:45:35] <jesse1010> how do you handle the backend?[05:45:40] *** pie___ <pie___!~pie_@unaffiliated/pie-/x-0787662> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[05:46:20] <dahlia> backend? you mean server?[05:46:41] <jesse1010> yes[05:46:47] <jesse1010> the actuall logic and db[05:47:15] <dahlia> apache serves the application then a custom c# application acts as the "game" server[05:47:19] * Stragus thought software could handle logic without a server[05:47:42] <jesse1010> ah, so you dont do c++ on the backend? why not?[05:47:43] <dahlia> Stragus: well it's multi-user shared virtual experience[05:48:42] <dahlia> assets are served via http, scene state via websockets[05:49:36] <jesse1010> but if I wanted to do a C backend, how hard would it be?[05:50:36] <dahlia> c++ compilers work with c[05:50:52] <jesse1010> but you chose c#[05:50:54] <dahlia> I use https://hub.docker.com/r/apiaryio/emcc/ for building the web build[05:51:00] <jesse1010> whyis that?[05:51:01] <dahlia> c# is the server[05:51:17] <Stragus> jesse1010: People use all kinds of languages, why do you care? Pick what works for you[05:51:59] <jesse1010> yes but I am simply wondering if using C or c++ as backend, with wasm as the front end is not easily done[05:52:47] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has joined ##OpenGL[05:52:48] <dahlia> I have several years of work invested in this so I would say it's not exactly "easily done"[05:54:42] <dahlia> if you want relatively easy, use a game engine or some other framework that does 90% of what you want[05:54:56] <jesse1010> im not creating a game[05:55:11] <jesse1010> I would like to do c with opengl desktop apps[05:55:17] <jesse1010> but have them portable to wasm[05:56:34] *** realtime <realtime!~root@unaffiliated/realtime> has joined ##OpenGL[05:57:58] <dahlia> well my experience with cross-platform is it's easier to do it from the start rather than creating something for one platform and trying to port it to others later[05:58:10] <dahlia> but YMMV ;)[06:01:20] <dahlia> and ya webgl is a crude subset of modern opengl so that may cripple you depending on what you want to do[06:05:35] <jesse1010> no games, just tabs, buttons, etc[06:05:39] *** fatalhalt <fatalhalt!~fatalhalt@c-67-163-60-93.hsd1.il.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Quit: fatal halt)[06:05:51] <jesse1010> a desktop app in the browser essently[06:06:28] *** charlie5 <charlie5!~rod@pa49-195-128-231.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)[06:11:38] *** DaijobuDes <DaijobuDes!~DaijobuDe@49.145.140.73> has joined ##OpenGL[06:28:40] *** charlie5 <charlie5!~rod@pa49-195-128-231.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au> has joined ##OpenGL[06:43:33] *** glYoda <glYoda!~MTLYoda@c-73-25-27-206.hsd1.or.comcast.net> has joined ##OpenGL[06:47:47] <vmt> jesse1010: why would you ever create a gui framework for a browser?[06:53:02] *** lucid-lullaby <lucid-lullaby!~lucid-lul@66.115.169.237> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[06:53:21] *** lucid-lullaby <lucid-lullaby!~lucid-lul@66.115.169.237> has joined ##OpenGL[07:00:05] *** ville <ville!~ville@212-149-214-47.bb.dnainternet.fi> has quit IRC (Quit:)[07:10:21] *** ville <ville!~ville@212-149-214-47.bb.dnainternet.fi> has joined ##OpenGL[07:14:31] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[07:43:28] *** iderik <iderik!~weechat@h-162-65.A147.priv.bahnhof.se> has joined ##OpenGL[08:04:32] *** karab44 <karab44!~karab44@unaffiliated/karab44> has joined ##OpenGL[08:35:06] *** krystcich <krystcich!~krystcich@088156132232.dynamic-ww-04.vectranet.pl> has joined ##OpenGL[09:03:52] *** groton <groton!~groton@unaffiliated/groton> has quit IRC (Quit: groton)[09:04:31] *** telex <telex!teletype@freeshell.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[09:05:09] *** telex <telex!teletype@94.247.40.156> has joined ##OpenGL[09:37:02] *** zalt <zalt!~lambda443@unaffiliated/lambda443> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[09:37:29] *** zalt <zalt!~lambda443@unaffiliated/lambda443> has joined ##OpenGL[09:47:45] *** slidercrank <slidercrank!~slidercra@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/fifth/slidercrank> has joined ##OpenGL[10:11:40] *** snyp <snyp!~Snyp@202.83.17.8> has joined ##OpenGL[10:24:14] *** mukunda <mukunda!~mukunda@cpe-104-175-176-150.socal.res.rr.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[10:32:10] *** Foaly <Foaly!~Foaly@ppp-88-217-60-237.dynamic.mnet-online.de> has joined ##OpenGL[10:48:37] *** zalt <zalt!~lambda443@unaffiliated/lambda443> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[10:49:50] *** Nicmavr <Nicmavr!~Nicmavr@unaffiliated/nicmavr> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[10:51:46] *** Nicmavr <Nicmavr!~Nicmavr@unaffiliated/nicmavr> has joined ##OpenGL[11:01:35] *** notadeveloper <notadeveloper!notadevelo@unaffiliated/notadeveloper> has joined ##OpenGL[11:02:08] *** hellozee <hellozee!~hellozee@116.73.36.92> has joined ##OpenGL[11:21:16] *** Foaly <Foaly!~Foaly@ppp-88-217-60-237.dynamic.mnet-online.de> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[11:31:34] *** BPL <BPL!~BPL@102.56.27.77.dynamic.reverse-mundo-r.com> has joined ##OpenGL[11:37:19] *** krystcich <krystcich!~krystcich@088156132232.dynamic-ww-04.vectranet.pl> has quit IRC (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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ZZZzzz…)[12:48:48] *** Twipply <Twipply!~Twipply@unaffiliated/twipply> has joined ##OpenGL[13:04:01] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host81-147-72-11.range81-147.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##OpenGL[13:05:52] *** pie__ <pie__!~pie_@unaffiliated/pie-/x-0787662> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[13:10:46] <iCherry> so maybe a bit of a noobie question, but does glsl treat uint.. differently? im trying to pass unsigned int colours[] to the vertex shader via a layout, but it doesnt seem to be passing it correctly. everything is fixed if i just change the data type (in both cpp and glsl) to float, and leave the logic part alone[13:11:14] *** fr3tz0r <fr3tz0r!~snigelfar@185.183.146.196> has joined ##OpenGL[13:17:29] <fr3tz0r> Where do I get the NDC cordinates (0,0) from? In vertex shader: layout(location=0) in vec4 pos. glVertexAttribPointer(0,...) where 0 specifies the index of the vertex attribute what does that mean?[13:20:08] <snyp> fr3tz0r: just a number for the attribute.[13:21:56] <snyp> iCherry: are you using glVertexAttribIPointer (or AttribIFormat)?[13:22:36] <snyp> iCherry: use the I versions when you want to access in glsl using integer vectors.[13:22:52] <iCherry> ive been just using glVertexAtrribPointer[13:23:05] <iCherry> ah, didnt know it was required to use the I version, thx dude[13:26:31] <iCherry> yeah seems to work now, thx again[13:26:49] <snyp> np[13:34:49] <fr3tz0r> snyp: so, layou(location=1)and glVertexAttribPointer(0,...) is equal to layou(location=0) glVertexAttribPointer(0,...) then?[13:35:06] <fr3tz0r> snyp: I mean 1,1 on the first[13:35:56] <fr3tz0r> snyp:where does it normalize to the center of the windows then?[13:36:24] <iCherry> yes they are equal, aslong as 0 doesnt already contai something[13:36:30] *** karab44 <karab44!~karab44@unaffiliated/karab44> has quit IRC ()[13:37:21] <iCherry> think of it like a pointer, if you put in data on 1, you need to get it from 1[13:38:09] <fr3tz0r> so this is changing pointer to different VBOs then?[13:38:49] <snyp> fr3tz0r: yeah, in C side you identify the attribute with the index, in glsl side you give the attribute its index. (locations are worth 4 floats, but you probably don't need to look at it that way right now)[13:39:36] <iCherry> the 3rd argument glVertexAttribPointer(x, y, HERE, ...) specifies whether ogl should normalise them for you(GL_TRUE) or if they are already normalised(GL_FALSE)[13:41:17] <iCherry> and yes, it uses data from the currently bound GL_ARRAY_BUFFER[13:42:25] <fr3tz0r> thx :)[13:42:41] <snyp> iCherry: for modern opengl, i like this approach - https://www.khronos.org/opengl/wiki/Vertex_Specification#Separate_attribute_format[13:44:41] <derhass> fr3tz0r: what do you mean by "where does it normalize to the center of the windows then?"[13:44:45] <fr3tz0r> iCherry: attribute 4 is normalize right?[13:45:12] <derhass> what? no.[13:45:13] <iCherry> it depends whether the data you provide is normalised or not[13:47:15] <iCherry> derhass, just wondering, when you pass GL_TRUE, ogl normalises based on what is provided by glViewport() correct?[13:47:22] <derhass> no[13:47:34] <iCherry> oh?[13:48:21] <derhass> if you set normalize to GL_TRUE, it interpretes your data as fixed-point, if and only if you're using an integer type[13:48:42] <derhass> and by doing so, it maps to [0,1] for unsigned types, and to [-1,1] for signed ones[13:48:52] *** R2robot <R2robot!~R2robot@unaffiliated/r2ro> has joined ##OpenGL[13:48:56] <derhass> nothing of that has anything to do with the viewport or NDC coordinates[13:49:36] <iCherry> yeah, but how does it know what to map it from?[13:49:48] <derhass> from the data type you specify[13:49:58] <derhass> GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE is [0,255] -> [0,1][13:50:05] <iCherry> ahhhh, i get it now[13:50:09] <iCherry> thanks dude[14:19:50] <fr3tz0r> thx :) I thought wrong[14:22:57] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[14:25:04] *** snyp <snyp!~Snyp@202.83.17.8> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[14:52:17] *** Foaly <Foaly!~Foaly@ppp-88-217-60-237.dynamic.mnet-online.de> has joined ##OpenGL[14:55:54] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host81-147-72-11.range81-147.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[15:04:24] *** blackpawn <blackpawn!blackpawn@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/blackpawn> has joined ##OpenGL[15:12:15] *** slvn_ <slvn_!~slvn_@c2s31-1-78-245-90-111.fbx.proxad.net> has joined ##OpenGL[15:23:34] <BPL> blackpawn: Hey mate, hiya, how you doing?[15:24:50] <blackpawn> morning :)[15:25:01] <blackpawn> still breathing XD u?[15:25:46] <BPL> lol... breathing is a good thing idd... I'm fine, I was spending some nice time right now with my first open-source project ever... https://github.com/brupelo/pyblime :D[15:25:57] <blackpawn> ooh[15:26:12] <BPL> eventually i'd like to use that little tiny thing on my demotools... although still is not very usable, but it's promising :)[15:26:20] <blackpawn> fancy![15:26:40] <BPL> i can't make good 64k intros without having a proper text editor, can i? :P[15:26:59] <BPL> plus... this is some sort of experiment to realize myself whether open-source movement is a good thing or not :)[15:27:26] <BPL> ie: i don't know whether this https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3151787/can-an-open-source-project-be-considered-a-cooperative-game holds or not xD[15:27:32] <blackpawn> upside get contributors, downside spend lots of time fixing bugs for other ppl?[15:27:59] <BPL> dunno... i'm a total beginner in open-source world... we'll see... if i don't like the experience i won't repeat :D[15:28:08] <BPL> so far 0 contributors... lol[15:28:22] <blackpawn> cool i'll be interested to hear your experience. i haven't gotten into it either[15:28:51] <BPL> as a first experiment i've decided to try with a tiny project to see... what do you think about this btw https://github.com/brupelo/pyblime/blob/master/docs/contributing.md ?[15:29:23] <blackpawn> yeah i like focus on fun[15:29:39] <BPL> cool :) , at least i think i've got that right[15:29:57] <BPL> in any case, i think this may be a good experience overall... as my team-player skills are really bad ones :P[15:30:20] <BPL> we'll see... but yeah, having a proper editor in 3d tools is a must[15:31:08] <BPL> i recall in Cocoon, Logicoma they use the text editor as an external tool... I do think that's not good enough (IMHO)[15:31:41] <blackpawn> so it doesn't use sublime but you implement something close to sublime using other libraries?[15:32:12] <BPL> blackpawn: one of the main goals i've got in mind will be using directly Sublime's plugins without modifying at all the code[15:32:23] <BPL> blackpawn: so i'll get a lot of cool features "for free"[15:33:10] <BPL> so i need to reimplement Sublime API methods so the widget will behave the same... it's some sort of reverse engineering process, quite tidious but fun though :P[15:33:40] <BPL> if Sublime was just open source... this job would be trivial... but... it's what it is :)[15:33:46] <blackpawn> :D[15:34:32] <BPL> btw, i still think using Scintilla behind the curtains is not the best choice but it's the fastest way i've been able to think of having something up&running fast :/[15:35:14] <BPL> for instance, here's some experiments I've been running over the last month => https://github.com/edbee/edbee-lib/issues/82#issuecomment-472350452[15:35:42] <BPL> I think we'd discussed about it few weeks ago in this channel but coding a proper text editor is not a trivial task :/[15:36:49] <blackpawn> yeah one of those things that seems it would be easy but is not[15:37:37] <BPL> exactly... in fact, think about QtCreator or even VisualStudio, their text editors are not as good as Sublime's... and they've got quite a lot of resources to make things right... so... :P[15:37:50] <blackpawn> hah very true[15:38:37] <blackpawn> XCode has some fancy new stuff. 3D effects with code folding and renaming. looks like it must have taken a lot of effort[15:38:57] <BPL> yeah... probably weeks if not months of 1 or more devs dispatching just that single feature[15:39:16] <BPL> btw, my first thought was after uploading this thing magically a lot of contributors would start dispatching tickets as efficiently as hell... i was totally naive xDDD[15:39:26] <blackpawn> haha[15:39:39] <BPL> sometimes we coders think our little ideas are gorgeous but the reality is maybe we're the only ones interested on them x)[15:39:42] <blackpawn> yeah not sure what to expect. haven't been involved much on github[15:39:55] <BPL> and in the case of sceners, the above is more true :D[15:40:02] <BPL> for instance, let me put you an example[15:40:13] <blackpawn> yes that's true. fun to get super caught up in your project and see all the potential and what makes it cool and interesting. and others can look and shrug and walk along lol[15:40:54] <BPL> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdkKLlUEAow , this... i'm sure you, me and other dozens (being generous with the estimation) will say, "Wow, such an awesome project"... but in the real world nobody would give a shit about it lol xD[15:41:12] <BPL> we sceners are quite funny creatures overall x)[15:41:13] <blackpawn> haha[15:42:23] <BPL> anyway, hopefully eventually I'll be able to use this as a drop-in replacement in my demotools... i think that will be pretty amazing :)[15:42:44] <blackpawn> do u plan to open source more parts of your tools?[15:42:53] <BPL> i don't think so ;)[15:43:33] <BPL> don't have plans about it... but maybe eventually I'll make them commercial after testing them by creating a bunch of 64k intros :)[15:43:45] <blackpawn> i think would be nice to have code always in a state with dead man's switch so goes open source when you die and maybe can benefit some people[15:43:55] <BPL> oh, yeah, I agree with that[15:43:58] <BPL> haha[15:44:32] <BPL> i think this has actually been discussed in some Sublime's forums about Sublime itself, let me find the post[15:45:51] <BPL> blackpawn: Read some Jon's comment about it => https://forum.sublimetext.com/t/whats-happening/139/9?u=bpl[15:46:59] <blackpawn> cool yeah my thoughts also[15:47:04] *** DaijobuDes <DaijobuDes!~DaijobuDe@49.145.140.73> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[15:47:29] <BPL> blackpawn: In any case... all the times I've seen great piece of software released as source code and having nearly ~0 contributors I've got quite dissapointed myself, look at tools such as farbrausch', or Still's, ...[15:47:43] <blackpawn> and kinda what a lot of the big open source stuff is. commercial closed source software that was then open sources when company died. blender good example[15:47:52] <BPL> yeah[15:49:00] <BPL> I mean, open-source is nice and I like open-source software from an altruistic point of view... but i still not sure about the benefits when your a small or single developer open-sourcing stuff[15:49:25] <BPL> if you analize it from a very pragmatic point of view you're just devaluating software (IMHO)[15:49:46] <blackpawn> trouble is we live in capitalist economic model and we need to pay large expenses and compete for limited resources. would be great to just give everything away for free but need some way to feed ourselves[15:49:54] <BPL> so excuse me if I don't believe about what google says here => https://opensource.google.com/docs/why/#engineering-economics[15:49:58] <BPL> exactly![15:50:13] <BPL> if i was rich i'd open source my whole shit, that's not the case, so... :P[15:50:29] <blackpawn> right[15:51:22] <BPL> think about sceners opening their stuff... i can put my finger at the time they open sourced their stuff was because they "could" (low risk)[15:52:43] <BPL> anyway, on the other hand... I think when people join to your projects it must be quite a fun experience though :)[15:53:22] <blackpawn> yeah nice to have ppl to collaborate with[15:53:32] <blackpawn> and bounce ideas off of[15:53:47] <BPL> i think that allows you to grow as a coder as well[15:54:56] <BPL> changing of subject... any prod for revision this year?[15:55:08] <blackpawn> hehe nope[15:55:32] <blackpawn> flame wants to host a demo party in iceland[15:55:39] <blackpawn> i'd be really tempted to go and do a prod for that[15:55:48] <BPL> \:O/[15:55:54] <BPL> a new demo party?[15:55:58] <blackpawn> yeah[15:56:13] <blackpawn> i mean id like to go to revision at some point too[15:56:17] <BPL> it's said iceland is one of the best countries to live x)[15:56:20] <BPL> yeah, same here[15:56:26] <blackpawn> but less urgency i guess since it happens every year[15:56:45] <BPL> i've wanted to present HiaTb in 64kb at revision for... how long? if i'm not mistaken 2 years alreayd lol[15:56:47] <BPL> time flies xD[15:56:56] <blackpawn> yeah i'd like to visit and check it out. ive always wanted to live in alaska. i like snow and cold. ancestors from Norway[15:57:06] <BPL> haha[15:57:28] <BPL> i used to work with one guy how moved from Europe to Alaska... only heard good things about that country :)[15:57:43] <blackpawn> nice :) you used to get paid just for living in Alaska[15:57:43] <BPL> also got some friends who talked me about the same idea[15:57:47] <BPL> lol[15:57:50] <blackpawn> i think you still do but is quite small amount now[15:58:18] <BPL> what about Australia? It's also said the life quality is also quite good :D[15:58:29] <blackpawn> too much sun and skin cancer[15:58:31] <blackpawn> i burn so easily[15:58:33] <BPL> ha![15:58:42] <blackpawn> i get sun burn just waiting in line outside for lunch before[15:58:55] <blackpawn> i'd die in a week of Australia i bet haha[15:58:58] <BPL> well, that's a good thing for democoders, isn't?[15:59:01] <BPL> lol xD[15:59:08] *** krystcich <krystcich!~krystcich@088156132232.dynamic-ww-04.vectranet.pl> has joined ##OpenGL[15:59:21] <blackpawn> yeah having to stay indoors all the time we have no choice but to make cool things with computers[15:59:30] <BPL> exactly my point :)[15:59:47] <BPL> why do you think Europeans from the north are such a good democoders (no joking here)[15:59:55] <blackpawn> yeah[16:00:13] <blackpawn> love those funny memes of finland all snowed in so guy making demo on his PC[16:00:31] <BPL> in Spain we're screwed up as the weather is realtively good... plus, with the climatic change here we've got 5 extra weeks of summer, so we can't make a demo about it :([16:00:34] <BPL> hahah[16:00:35] <BPL> yeah[16:00:53] <blackpawn> hah nice[16:01:19] <BPL> mmm, beach democoding... never tried that lol :)[16:01:34] <BPL> wouldn't be a bad life (i guess) x)[16:01:43] <blackpawn> hmm yeah i dont think ive ever really been at a beach before lol[16:01:54] <BPL> is that so? :O[16:02:18] <blackpawn> yeah.. closest is a quarry i swam at as kid[16:02:31] * BPL googling quarry[16:02:43] <BPL> ah :D[16:03:22] <BPL> well, if your skin is frail makes sense you haven't[16:03:57] <blackpawn> yeah... associate outdoors and sun with death[16:04:03] <blackpawn> haha[16:04:08] <BPL> i know lots of people who dislike going to the beach actually[16:04:49] <blackpawn> darth vader hated the beach. said sand gets everywhere[16:04:56] <BPL> lol xD[16:05:01] <blackpawn> haha george lucas prequels :)[16:06:26] <BPL> blackpawn: did you see this one https://github.com/yupferris/WaveSabre ? haven't had the time to test it out... but it looks amazing stuff[16:06:54] <blackpawn> yeah heard from kb it's really good[16:07:04] <zy]x[yz> i bet darth vader hated sand a lot more after 80% of his skin got burned off[16:07:12] <BPL> :'D[16:07:25] <blackpawn> hah zy]x[yz yeah sun exposure would be rough for him[16:08:30] <BPL> blackpawn: the code of that repo looks legit, there is a lot of nice bits[16:10:09] <blackpawn> u going to use for your 64k?[16:10:53] *** LunarJetman <LunarJetman!LunarJetma@5ec16e1a.skybroadband.com> has joined ##OpenGL[16:11:18] <BPL> mmm, not sure... my choices are 1) integrate 64klang2 on some custom tool 2) integrate wabesabre on some custom tool 3) coding my own synth from scratch and adding to some custom tool 4) forget about it at all and finding some guy who makes the thing (highly unlikely) :D[16:11:42] *** slime <slime!~slime73@24.215.81.93> has joined ##OpenGL[16:11:54] <blackpawn> seems like wavesabre the way to go right now[16:12:05] <BPL> for my 64k I'll need something quite special... afterall hiatb song isn't short :/[16:12:13] <BPL> yeah...[16:13:03] <BPL> when starting with that intro I'll have much bigger problems to deal with... music is actually the easiest part :P[16:14:36] <BPL> blackpawn: how much size do you think it'd take hiatb synth+song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQngoCBvq3Q ?[16:14:41] <BPL> +/-[16:15:09] <blackpawn> 96kb XD[16:15:19] <BPL> rats! I'm screwed up then xD[16:15:23] <blackpawn> haha[16:16:07] <blackpawn> pick fave part or two and squeeze down into 64 :)[16:16:10] <BPL> those damm electric guitars won't make the job any easier :P[16:16:23] <blackpawn> go with diff music style plz.[16:16:40] <BPL> yeah... first of all i want to get the tools in shape before elaborating the right strategy to port that damm monster :)[16:16:56] <BPL> but it's a crazy awesome project that would make me happy[16:17:06] <blackpawn> if u go navis style only tool u need is c++ compiler[16:17:38] <BPL> nah... navis style is only suitable for... navis? I'm too dumb and clumsy for such style :D[16:18:08] <BPL> i prefer the tool overcomes all my clumsiness ;)[16:18:25] <blackpawn> :D[16:19:16] <BPL> i've always wondered what people such as iq, navis would make with tools that were nice to them[16:19:45] <BPL> would they create better prods thanks to the tools?[16:20:12] <blackpawn> hmm maybe not if their fun is in coding the tech rather than using existing stuff[16:20:31] <BPL> i guess... actually that's something iq told me few times over the years...[16:22:16] <BPL> in any case, my position is not coming from authority as my productivity is ~0 but I strongly believe using proper tools will lead to create amazing things[16:23:25] <BPL> i've seen the same mistake with current tools over and over... they don't allow easily to make transitions between effects and i think that's the key if you want to come up with a killer prod :/ (My 2 cents)[16:24:12] <blackpawn> how can the tool help with doing transitions? do you have something in mind for that?[16:24:22] <BPL> take as an example masagin... the tool Panic used at that time wasn't even a proper "tool"... it was a pseudotool[16:24:25] <BPL> yeah, i've got :)[16:24:42] <BPL> problem with the existing tools is they're too rigid when adding new nodes/effects[16:25:06] <BPL> a proper tool should allow at certain extent using code at real-time (without restarting the tool)[16:25:20] <BPL> said otherwise... the tool should allow you to add code IN the tool itself[16:25:27] <blackpawn> ah thus the mix in yours with the fancy text editor[16:25:31] <BPL> or creating new nodes dynamically[16:25:32] <BPL> exactly[16:25:47] <BPL> you're quite... how's the word... perspicaz?[16:25:51] * BPL googling[16:26:07] <BPL> yeah, you're quite sharp :)[16:26:12] <blackpawn> hah[16:26:23] <BPL> exactly, having a proper text editor IS the key to create killer intros/demos[16:26:25] <BPL> IMHO[16:26:37] <blackpawn> yeah in my old demotool transitions were tough unless you wanted to do cross fades or transition in post process stuff[16:26:45] <BPL> yeah, exactly[16:26:57] <blackpawn> need a way to blend the scene contents and cameras[16:26:57] <BPL> not only yours... in mostly of the existing demotools that was an unsolved problem[16:27:04] <blackpawn> right[16:27:12] <BPL> even with fairlight's commercial tool (haven't tried) i think the problem also exists[16:27:21] *** pie_ <pie_!~pie_@unaffiliated/pie-/x-0787662> has joined ##OpenGL[16:27:33] <BPL> ps... don't tell this anybody ;) , it's a secret[16:27:34] <BPL> xD[16:27:40] <blackpawn> hehe ok[16:27:57] <BPL> nah, just kidding... but i think it'd be cool having that as a feature in the tool[16:28:12] *** pie_ <pie_!~pie_@unaffiliated/pie-/x-0787662> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[16:28:19] <BPL> on the other hand, i guess that wouldn't be nice for artists, so it's some sort of tradeoffs[16:28:31] <BPL> it would be a more-oriented for coders tool[16:28:40] *** pie_ <pie_!~pie_@unaffiliated/pie-/x-0787662> has joined ##OpenGL[16:28:43] <blackpawn> may be challenging for 64kb... do you spit out C++ code then for the build compile down to some little VM with opcodes[16:29:09] <BPL> yeah... that's something i'll need to refine when creating the 64kb itself...[16:29:36] <BPL> but i'll need to be super smart about that so i'll be able to reuse a lot of nodes[16:29:44] <BPL> and generating quite optimmal VM code[16:29:55] <blackpawn> that one you showed before with texgen using C++ that could be used at runtime in tool and compiled offline both was pretty cool[16:30:34] <BPL> yeah, still not sure if that approach will allow me to reach the next level i intend to ... :( , it's research stuff[16:30:45] *** charlie5 <charlie5!~rod@pa49-195-128-231.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au> has quit IRC (Read error: No route to host)[16:31:36] <BPL> blackpawn: if you ask at this moment if i have clear in my head how hiatb in 64kb code will look like... i can't give you any good answer so far :)[16:31:51] <BPL> as I don't know it myself (yet)[16:32:44] <BPL> in fact, i'm not sure if it's a feasible project or I'll reach a dead end point eventually, who knows :P[16:35:46] <BPL> and just for the record, picoc isn't exactly a really lightweight thing => https://github.com/laurentlb/Ctrl-Alt-Test/tree/master/F/tools/picoc[16:36:19] <blackpawn> oh but for the shipped demo it doesn't need to be used. just for tool[16:39:12] *** Foaly <Foaly!~Foaly@ppp-88-217-60-237.dynamic.mnet-online.de> has quit IRC (Quit: Now 'mid shadows deep falls blessed sleep.)[16:41:29] <BPL> oh yeah, sure... in any case, not sure using that picoc approach I'd end up with very compressible code... ie: I'd end with large chunks of c code such as this https://github.com/laurentlb/Ctrl-Alt-Test/blob/master/F/src/texgen/test.cc[16:41:49] <BPL> probably after creating few models/textures that way i'd pass the 64kb barrier very easily :([16:42:26] <BPL> i think it's about picking up the right set of nodes (using as much general code as possible) and using as much minified shader code as possible (very compressible)[16:43:39] <BPL> you need 1) very minimal but generic codebase as possible that 2) generates as much data as possible with 3) as small synth+music as possible ... In fact, if you can use some of synth's code to generate 2d/3d content that'd also be nice...[16:44:08] <BPL> anyway, enough of gooing offtopic here, guess it's time to code ;)[16:48:58] <blackpawn> hehe get some fresh screenshots to share :D[16:51:43] <BPL> I'll do... i still got pending mimicking that iq's forrest thing in one of my tools... that'd prove I'm in the right path to the end goal :D[16:55:26] <BPL> blackpawn: Sorry to ping again but this is one of the videos i wanted to show you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0WFt5ck87A , you see that? sorry, he's doing it wrong ;) . Coding back[16:56:17] <blackpawn> ah putting sublime on top?[16:56:39] <BPL> yeah, not good, i've even tried communicating from sublime to my tools by using json-rpc servers, or hot reloading code, not cool[16:57:01] <blackpawn> great results though, that looks sick[16:57:03] <BPL> if you want to do it the right way, use a right widget, that's pretty much :)[16:57:06] <BPL> oh, yeah, sure[16:57:15] <BPL> that tools is pretty amazing btw[16:57:28] <BPL> but i just think that part with the text editor is not good though[16:58:06] <BPL> but I understand why he did it that way... again... coding a text editor is not a 5 days job, so... :)[16:58:19] <blackpawn> whatever gets the job done though you know? right[16:58:36] <blackpawn> depends what things get your interest and fun to you[16:58:43] <BPL> mmm... i guess? I'm pretty masochist and I like walking the hard path[16:58:48] <BPL> yeah, i do agree with that[16:59:18] <BPL> maybe my "he's doing it wrong" was poorly chosen, i take it back :)[16:59:43] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host81-147-72-11.range81-147.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##OpenGL[16:59:49] <BPL> plus, afterall cocoon demos rock hard, so... who am i to say that x)[17:00:12] <blackpawn> hehe[17:00:33] <blackpawn> i'm sure if you make nice open source sublime text drop in component they'll use it[17:01:03] <BPL> that'd be cool... although many sceners don't like too much python, so I'm not sure about that[17:01:48] *** Foritus <Foritus!~buggery@cpc91334-watf11-2-0-cust153.15-2.cable.virginm.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[17:01:57] <BPL> some of them consider python as a bad joke actually... i don't blame them though, that was true 15 years ago :)[17:05:47] <blackpawn> know off hand what api cocoon use?[17:06:01] <blackpawn> dx9, 12, GL, vulkan[17:06:17] <BPL> i think there was some diskmag where guille talked about it, let me try to find it... but i think dx something...[17:06:42] *** zalt_ <zalt_!~lambda443@unaffiliated/lambda443> has joined ##OpenGL[17:07:01] <BPL> blackpawn: http://hugi.scene.org/online/hugi38/hugi%2038%20-%20demoscene%20reports%20ntsc%20cocoon.htm[17:07:05] *** cantstanya <cantstanya!~chatting@gateway/tor-sasl/cantstanya> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[17:07:32] <blackpawn> oooh nice never read this article despite being huge cocoon fan forever lol[17:08:22] <BPL> lol, too bad xD[17:08:43] <BPL> i think i know almost all PC demotools ever written, as you can see is a topic i find pretty fascinating myself :)[17:08:45] <blackpawn> "I am NTSC and I am a graphics artist in Cocoon. I neither work in the graphics industry nor with a game company" so where does NTSC work now i wonder?[17:08:55] *** fr3tz0r <fr3tz0r!~snigelfar@185.183.146.196> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[17:08:59] <BPL> beats me, dunno :/[17:09:07] <BPL> but he's really talented for sure[17:09:10] <blackpawn> guille and nytrik work in game industry im pretty sure[17:09:16] <BPL> y[17:09:28] *** zalt <zalt!~lambda443@unaffiliated/lambda443> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[17:09:43] *** cantstanya <cantstanya!~chatting@gateway/tor-sasl/cantstanya> has joined ##OpenGL[17:10:37] <BPL> blackpawn: maybe you can find some info about it on his twitter https://twitter.com/ntsc_cocoon?lang=en ?[17:11:39] <BPL> what I'm curious about is... why he decided to switch to notch? Does that mean is a much better demotool thatn cocoon's one? :O[17:11:45] <blackpawn> maybe he works on notch now[17:12:01] <BPL> that'd make lots of sense actually :)[17:12:44] <BPL> one thing i've always considered notch was doing right was something smash talk about in some seminar[17:13:01] <BPL> it's very easy to create tons of tiny nodes... what's hard is to come up with a minimal set of nodes that DO the right thing[17:13:16] <BPL> nodes that are user friendly[17:13:27] <blackpawn> yeah[17:13:32] <BPL> i think that's one of the key a good VJ tool should consider[17:13:45] <BPL> which is on the other hand, a pretty basic topic of UI usability[17:13:52] <BPL> but yeah, i agree with that[17:14:19] <blackpawn> is notch free to use for demos?[17:14:52] <BPL> dunno mate, i've read and watched videos about it but never felt curious about using it... as it's commercial stuff[17:15:10] <blackpawn> yeah i haven't dug into it either[17:15:20] <BPL> https://www.notch.one/[17:15:28] <blackpawn> could be a shortcut to a iceland demo tho haha[17:15:42] *** snyp <snyp!~Snyp@1.39.162.214> has joined ##OpenGL[17:15:46] <BPL> certainly it's not a cheap product... which on the other hand makes sense... for the market they move in[17:15:55] <BPL> lol[17:15:59] <BPL> xD[17:16:30] <BPL> but i recall few weeks ago you were criticizing Unity's or UE's, what would it make this different? :D[17:16:47] <blackpawn> no it's in the same camp[17:17:01] <BPL> ahaha... so you're going the dark side then? :)[17:17:37] <BPL> come on! i recall your tools were pretty nifty... ;)[17:18:19] <BPL> the node ones you shown once in your blog looked really solid stuff[17:18:32] *** groton <groton!~groton@unaffiliated/groton> has joined ##OpenGL[17:18:38] <BPL> you didn't upgrade that tool since then?[17:18:40] <blackpawn> haha oh man. clicked pricing on the notch size and picture of gloom popped up "Wondering which product is right for you? Let me know, and I'll help you out!"[17:18:47] <BPL> yeah, hahaha[17:18:47] <BPL> xD[17:19:06] <blackpawn> well my democode and tools i used also for work and are no longer mine[17:19:15] <BPL> ahhh, ok, i understand[17:19:49] <BPL> you should have signed something still allowing you to create prods with them ;)[17:20:55] <blackpawn> they recently let go the whole engine team and use unreal and unity now[17:21:17] <BPL> :([17:21:17] *** Foritus <Foritus!~buggery@cpc91334-watf11-2-0-cust153.15-2.cable.virginm.net> has joined ##OpenGL[17:21:33] <BPL> jeez... those engines are really virical :P[17:21:50] <BPL> it seems if you don't use them you're not a cool company anymore... too bad[17:22:10] <blackpawn> yeah can't really compete without using them[17:22:21] <BPL> so you also think like that? :([17:22:33] <BPL> everybody thinks that way...[17:22:54] <BPL> ok, everybody let's throw our stuff and using those engines, why bothering?[17:22:59] <BPL> grrr... :)[17:23:11] <blackpawn> well if you want to make a AAA game, staffing up a team of 200 just to do engine is not a good idea. just use unreal or unity[17:23:35] <blackpawn> didn't used to need that many ppl / effort to do custom engine but now u do[17:24:05] <blackpawn> maybe like way back in day you might have done custom drawing tools for making content for your game. then everyone use photoshop[17:24:45] <BPL> sure, i understand that, but... aren't there still some AAA companies out there using their old engines? ie: japan companies ?[17:25:30] <blackpawn> more and more companies just switch to unreal and unity[17:25:35] <BPL> it's quite boring using the same software, you know?[17:25:36] <blackpawn> blizzard even used unity for Hearthstone[17:25:39] <blackpawn> yeah[17:25:42] <blackpawn> bit of a shame[17:25:43] *** Foritus <Foritus!~buggery@cpc91334-watf11-2-0-cust153.15-2.cable.virginm.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[17:25:49] <BPL> :( , kills creativity[17:26:01] <blackpawn> well contributes to everything looking the same[17:26:05] <BPL> but i guess they just want low-risk bets[17:26:07] <BPL> yeah![17:26:10] <BPL> exactly[17:26:12] <BPL> not cool[17:26:20] <blackpawn> but helps if you're an artist or level designer. not having to learn whole new tools every time you move to diff company[17:26:25] <BPL> sure[17:27:11] *** Foritus <Foritus!~buggery@cpc91334-watf11-2-0-cust153.15-2.cable.virginm.net> has joined ##OpenGL[17:28:03] <BPL> blackpawn: you've got quite experience on the game industry, would you say working nowadays there is much more boring than let's say the 80sh?[17:28:17] <blackpawn> yeah[17:28:47] <blackpawn> bigger the companies get (needed to compete in AAA space) the more individual roles are just cogs in machine. have to focus on smaller area. limited opportunity to be creative[17:29:09] *** pd09041999 <pd09041999!~pd0904199@2405:205:108:5c5b:f1f0:4de0:63df:64f6> has joined ##OpenGL[17:29:17] <BPL> cos definitely if I had to do bug fixing for UE or adding features to that engine I'd maybe get bored in ... dunno, 1 day? :P[17:29:26] <blackpawn> haha yeah[17:30:03] *** Orion] <Orion]!~H0i@unaffiliated/orion/x-3970838> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[17:30:57] <BPL> one company i'd have loved to work with? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCXJSQfripI <== xD , dunno why but it feels that could have been really funny :)[17:31:14] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has joined ##OpenGL[17:31:32] <blackpawn> haha i remember playing that[17:31:47] <BPL> games these did were the real deal :D[17:32:05] <blackpawn> yes then it was small team like demo group making it[17:32:18] <BPL> exactly, good old days[17:32:57] <BPL> if you ask me? I don't think the industry becoming so driven by money made any good... money corrupts almost everything[17:33:01] <BPL> like football :P[17:33:15] <blackpawn> whats the next frontier?[17:33:34] <BPL> nowadays if you go to watch a football game you don't see actually football, why? becomes the damm money...[17:33:42] <BPL> next frontier? coming back to the good old days? :D[17:33:50] <BPL> for instance, phones...[17:34:05] <derhass> I think you wandered a little far off from OpenGL[17:34:08] <BPL> do you know nowadays they sell a phone for 370 euros for not being smart anymore?[17:34:32] <BPL> derhass: yeah ;) , coding back blackpawn: Thanks for the talk mate![17:34:38] <blackpawn> :)[17:37:38] *** bpmedley <bpmedley!~bpm@2600:1700:eb20:6050:b5a5:103d:fcc6:55bf> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[17:46:04] *** DrBenway <DrBenway!~DrBenway@modemcable080.164-57-74.mc.videotron.ca> has joined ##OpenGL[17:49:38] *** Foritus <Foritus!~buggery@cpc91334-watf11-2-0-cust153.15-2.cable.virginm.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[17:54:28] *** Foritus <Foritus!~buggery@cpc91334-watf11-2-0-cust153.15-2.cable.virginm.net> has joined ##OpenGL[17:57:07] *** pd09041999 <pd09041999!~pd0904199@2405:205:108:5c5b:f1f0:4de0:63df:64f6> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[18:01:51] *** Orion] <Orion]!~H0i@unaffiliated/orion/x-3970838> has joined ##OpenGL[18:10:23] *** pd09041999 <pd09041999!~pd0904199@169.149.19.138> has joined ##OpenGL[18:13:18] <blackpawn> so what cool OpenGL stuff is everyone coding this weekend?[18:17:33] <DrBenway> doing hardware codecs...[18:17:36] <DrBenway> (not really opengl)[18:17:45] <blackpawn> ah for video compression?[18:17:53] <DrBenway> and decompression[18:17:59] <blackpawn> cool[18:19:45] <BPL> derhass: One question, I understand why you pointed out before we were going offtopic here... which in the general case I do agree about, you definitely don't really want to "pollute" the channel too much or preventing others to participate in the talk... but I wonder, is it too bad going slightly offtopic when nobody is ever talking? Plus, if something starts talking about opengl I'd definitely come back to ontopic or just shut up :)[18:20:02] <BPL> *even[18:20:28] <DrBenway> heretic!!! cut his head off!!![18:20:31] <blackpawn> maybe gets distracting notification sounds?[18:20:37] <BPL> xD[18:20:37] <derhass> BPL: well, I think football is not just _slightly_ off-topic[18:21:06] <BPL> derhass: yeah, i was trying to make a point about the next frontier of 3d graphics, which is related to opengl afterall :)[18:21:31] <blackpawn> it's nice to see OpenGL extensions for the variable rate shading on new GPUs[18:21:42] <DrBenway> isnt vulkan the next frontier?[18:21:49] <DrBenway> or is that just a fad?[18:22:19] <blackpawn> well frontier i was thinking more area where small teams can thrive. vulkan well suited for those giant AAA teams[18:23:14] <derhass> BPL: "is it bad"? that's kind of the wrong question. this is an opengl channel[18:23:20] <DrBenway> small teams are using unity these days[18:23:31] *** CoolerZ <CoolerZ!~coolerext@14.139.38.135> has joined ##OpenGL[18:24:14] *** groton <groton!~groton@unaffiliated/groton> has quit IRC (Quit: groton)[18:24:42] <DrBenway> anyone doing glsl->SpirV and then loading that as your shaders while using opengl??[18:25:00] <derhass> GL 4.6 support is not yet widespread enough[18:25:22] <DrBenway> i'm lucky enough to not have to care about "widespread enough"[18:25:28] *** Lucretia <Lucretia!~Luke@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[18:25:36] <DrBenway> if there's a gpu, i can use it![18:26:18] <BPL> derhass: Yeah, I understand that... but being a little bit more open about discussion could also lead to interesting subjects, i'd put my finger a lot of people here is also related with the demoscene afterall... anyway, if everybody wants to just stick to opengl, let it be then :) , aferall, you're right, this is an opengl channel lol x)[18:27:13] <derhass> BPL: I'm not a moderator/operator here, so ultimately, you can just ignore me[18:27:49] <BPL> derhass: Well, I think your point was correct so I was just wondering about your opinion here, that's all[18:28:07] <derhass> but I'm still not sold on the idea that your "next frontier" thing is even related to GL in any meaningful way[18:28:28] <BPL> :)[18:28:36] <DrBenway> derhass, clearly. it's all about vulkan and unity[18:28:40] <DrBenway> (lol)[18:28:54] <blackpawn> OpenGL 5[18:29:07] <DrBenway> whats coming with 5?[18:29:18] <blackpawn> joking[18:29:26] <blackpawn> i think khronos has no plans for a 5 atm[18:30:26] <DrBenway> i think gpu vendors are offsetting the costs of making drivers on engine makers and small teams can just pay for that[18:32:23] <blackpawn> an OpenGL 5 modeled after Metal would be nice[18:32:34] <derhass> uhm?[18:32:41] <blackpawn> :)[18:32:55] <DrBenway> blackpawn, it's called vulkan[18:32:59] <blackpawn> like vulkan takes things a bit too far with verbosity and dumping driver writing onto devs[18:33:20] <DrBenway> is metal that much nicer?[18:33:24] <blackpawn> yeah[18:33:49] <blackpawn> if metal came out first they would have modeled on that instead of Mantle[18:33:54] <DrBenway> i'm just pissed that we're back at writing code for each device types[18:34:06] <DrBenway> we were almost there with portability[18:34:22] <blackpawn> with Apple not supporting it is def a step backwards for cross platform[18:34:29] <DrBenway> yup[18:35:39] <derhass> I think apple is also off-topic here^^[18:35:46] <derhass> (SCNR)[18:36:37] <blackpawn> haha[18:38:09] * DrBenway commits[18:38:16] <DrBenway> time to do my taxes[18:38:18] * DrBenway is out[18:38:24] <blackpawn> o/[18:38:46] *** DrBenway <DrBenway!~DrBenway@modemcable080.164-57-74.mc.videotron.ca> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[18:39:58] *** DrBenway <DrBenway!~DrBenway@modemcable080.164-57-74.mc.videotron.ca> has joined ##OpenGL[18:47:04] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host81-147-72-11.range81-147.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[18:54:23] *** groton <groton!~groton@unaffiliated/groton> has joined ##OpenGL[18:54:59] *** groton <groton!~groton@unaffiliated/groton> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[18:59:41] <iCherry> its so nice when your employer does your taxes foe you ;D[18:59:43] *** DrBenway <DrBenway!~DrBenway@modemcable080.164-57-74.mc.videotron.ca> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[19:01:10] <BPL> its so nice when you live in the North Pole and you don't need to do any taxes... :)[19:03:14] *** DrBenway <DrBenway!~DrBenway@modemcable080.164-57-74.mc.videotron.ca> has joined ##OpenGL[19:03:18] <BPL> blackpawn: I've assigned my first ticket ever in pyblime \:O/... would you want to become a collaborator yourself? Such skills would be an extremely unvaluable for such a growing fast pace project... (how are my recruiter skills lol)? xD[19:03:53] <blackpawn> haha[19:04:07] <blackpawn> hmm if i find myself in need of it i will help[19:04:15] <BPL> \:O/ , kewl[19:05:08] <BPL> grrr... i should have ready to go some screenshots to sell it better x) , the current screenshots posted in the landing page are still not good marketing[19:06:06] <BPL> people like more flashy things... maybe i should upload some little tool tweaking some good torus-knots in real-time with the editor lol :'D[19:06:25] *** xx2 <xx2!~xx2@212.253.8.72> has joined ##OpenGL[19:07:12] <blackpawn> a lady in a bikini using it to modify torus know in realtime XD[19:09:20] <BPL> lol, you've gained yourself a nice link in my references/credits sections once i add that :D[19:10:28] *** xx2 <xx2!~xx2@212.253.8.72> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[19:13:55] <BPL> i think iq got it right here... he understood how marketing works actually => http://www.iquilezles.org/blog/?p=4799 xDD[19:24:27] <blackpawn> haha[19:32:02] <mandeep> BPL: wheres your link?[19:32:28] <BPL> mandeep: I'm sorry, which one?[19:32:37] <mandeep> to your project[19:32:57] <BPL> mandeep: https://github.com/brupelo/pyblime[19:33:20] <mandeep> cool[19:34:21] <BPL> mandeep: main reason why i've creating this little tiny thing was to be used on my 3d tools... but you'd benefit from it in tons of things, also... we're a happy fun team (right now just 2 people) looking for contributors xDD[19:34:34] <mandeep> ;)[19:34:52] <BPL> jeez, i should definitely become marketer instead coder, i'm sure i'd do better lol xDD[19:35:32] <BPL> sarcasm mode off: in the last few days i've promoting the project quite a lot and so far nobody joined yet... so i think i'll still remain coder x)[19:35:57] <blackpawn> add a profit sharing program as extra incentive[19:36:33] <BPL> how dare you such a capitalist! x) , you guys in EEUU don't watch michael moore's documentaries? tsk... xD[19:37:30] <blackpawn> :P XD[19:37:45] <BPL> ;)[19:38:38] *** cfoch <cfoch!uid153227@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vbztrbnyoezupqmi> has joined ##OpenGL[19:40:26] <BPL> blackpawn: Mmm, I was going to ask about your opinion about why still's tool was getting so little contributions but jeez, it seems that project is getting traction already https://github.com/framefield/tooll (look forks/contributors/issues/stars) :O[19:40:46] <BPL> last time i'd checked the stats were quite poor... it seems they're doing much better now, good[19:41:10] <blackpawn> yeah quite a bit of activity[19:42:00] <BPL> I'm glad they're doing better as the code of that tool was "legit"... really nice guys btw[19:42:44] <BPL> I asked them over the years tons of questions about node-operators tools and they were always quite helpful[19:43:49] <blackpawn> hmm kinda like a free open source notch XD[19:44:25] <BPL> yeah, before their previous version tooll1 was pure c++&qt tool, but they considered the move to c# was a good move...[19:44:37] <blackpawn> interesting[19:44:43] <BPL> the previous version was quite nice, c++/qt/opengl[19:44:47] <BPL> now it's c#+dx[19:45:15] <BPL> they reduced quite a bit the compilation times so i guess that's a win... i'd never use c# though :P[19:45:32] <blackpawn> yeah i'd be more inclined to dig into it if it was c++[19:45:49] <BPL> but the tooll is pretty nice...[19:45:55] <BPL> i love how you can group operators[19:46:02] <BPL> that's a really powerful feature[19:46:35] <BPL> much more versatil/powerful than the good old load/save nodes (IMHO)[19:46:59] <blackpawn> yeah grouping subgraphs is good[19:48:08] <BPL> in fact, they've reached the state where they can group even whole demos... that's doing things the "right" way i guess[19:49:06] <BPL> but coding this feature isn't trivial and you need to think carefully about it[19:49:37] <BPL> software like octane/blender, they also implement subgraph grouping[19:49:55] *** zalt_ <zalt_!~lambda443@unaffiliated/lambda443> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[20:05:43] <iCherry> hmm alright so, is it possible to give data to the vertex shader via vertex attribute arrays, independent of elements?[20:10:20] <snyp> iCherry: what do you mean?[20:12:13] *** snyp <snyp!~Snyp@1.39.162.214> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.4)[20:12:36] *** snyp <snyp!~Snyp@1.39.162.214> has joined ##OpenGL[20:12:58] <iCherry> eg if you set GL_ELEMENT_ARRAY_BUFFER to {3, 1, 2}, it will take vertices in that order from the data set via glVertexAttribPointer[20:13:30] <iCherry> this is generally intended behaviour (that is its purpose, afterall)[20:14:45] <iCherry> but how would i be able to pass another array of values, but instead of taking data in that order, it will take it start to finish (0, 1, 2) instead?[20:15:53] <iCherry> im guessing some sort of uniform? but from what (admittedly little) i know, there should be some other way to do this, no?[20:17:00] *** jesse1010 <jesse1010!~user@68-113-87-53.static.leds.al.charter.com> has joined ##OpenGL[20:17:32] <jesse1010> is there a way in opengl to display an image thumbnail of a file on a users computer?[20:17:42] *** gareppa <gareppa!~gareppa@unaffiliated/gareppa> has joined ##OpenGL[20:19:21] <derhass> jesse1010: you earlier claimed you knew what OpenGL is, but I'm afraid to tell you, you don't[20:19:23] *** pd09041999 <pd09041999!~pd0904199@169.149.19.138> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[20:19:47] <jesse1010> i understand I would use c but I am wondering how this would work in opengl[20:20:07] <jesse1010> could you tell me if its possible?[20:20:19] <BPL> jesse1010: You'd need to use your OS API to retrieve the thumbnails from that particular file and then just using that content/raw data the way you wanted with opengl, so yeah... OpenGL allow to achieve what you're asking for[20:20:37] <jesse1010> ok thank you[20:20:47] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host81-147-72-11.range81-147.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##OpenGL[20:23:51] <BPL> not sure which OS you're using... but this https://docs.microsoft.com/es-es/windows/desktop/api/shellapi/nf-shellapi-shgetfileinfoa win32 API function could help you to start going[20:24:20] *** xx2 <xx2!~xx2@212.253.8.72> has joined ##OpenGL[20:24:52] <jesse1010> thank you![20:29:36] <snyp> iCherry: decouple the element buffer usage from your vao's then, use vaos (or just that particular vao) only for format and vertex buffer.[20:30:00] <snyp> i.e. set element buffer explicitly using glBindBuffer() before drawing[20:30:30] <snyp> iCherry: but at this point you're better off using vertexattribformat x)[20:31:04] <iCherry> thanks, ill look into it[20:34:21] *** xx2 <xx2!~xx2@212.253.8.72> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[20:41:18] *** gareppa <gareppa!~gareppa@unaffiliated/gareppa> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[20:45:52] *** gareppa <gareppa!~gareppa@unaffiliated/gareppa> has joined ##OpenGL[20:48:58] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7l9r42569r41f4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##OpenGL[20:49:18] *** Lucretia <Lucretia!~Luke@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia> has joined ##OpenGL[20:51:37] *** slvn_ <slvn_!~slvn_@c2s31-1-78-245-90-111.fbx.proxad.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[20:59:39] *** slidercrank <slidercrank!~slidercra@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/fifth/slidercrank> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[21:01:11] *** slidercrank <slidercrank!~slidercra@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/fifth/slidercrank> has joined ##OpenGL[21:05:08] *** gareppa <gareppa!~gareppa@unaffiliated/gareppa> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[21:12:02] *** iderik <iderik!~weechat@h-162-65.A147.priv.bahnhof.se> has quit IRC (Quit: iderik)[21:15:58] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has joined ##OpenGL[21:19:02] *** slime <slime!~slime73@24.215.81.93> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[21:19:25] *** slime <slime!~slime73@24.215.81.93> has joined ##OpenGL[21:29:46] *** Nicmavr <Nicmavr!~Nicmavr@unaffiliated/nicmavr> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[21:30:28] *** jesse1010 <jesse1010!~user@68-113-87-53.static.leds.al.charter.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[21:30:59] *** slidercrank <slidercrank!~slidercra@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/fifth/slidercrank> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[21:31:31] *** Nicmavr <Nicmavr!~Nicmavr@unaffiliated/nicmavr> has joined ##OpenGL[21:36:56] *** zalt <zalt!~lambda443@unaffiliated/lambda443> has joined ##OpenGL[21:48:31] *** DrBenway <DrBenway!~DrBenway@modemcable080.164-57-74.mc.videotron.ca> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[21:48:38] *** DrGonzo <DrGonzo!~DrBenway@modemcable080.164-57-74.mc.videotron.ca> has joined ##OpenGL[21:51:18] *** snyp <snyp!~Snyp@1.39.162.214> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[22:04:03] *** slidercrank <slidercrank!~slidercra@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/fifth/slidercrank> has joined ##OpenGL[22:08:11] *** kybian <kybian!~themanhim@2001:19f0:5801:54d:5400:ff:fe7a:feae> has joined ##OpenGL[23:01:15] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92-rdmsoft [XULRunner 35.0.1/20150122214805])[23:01:46] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has joined ##OpenGL[23:15:39] *** KittyOfKings <KittyOfKings!45513ec9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.81.62.201> has joined ##OpenGL[23:15:54] *** KittyOfKings <KittyOfKings!45513ec9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.81.62.201> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[23:46:22] *** xx2 <xx2!~xx2@212.253.8.72> has joined ##OpenGL[23:47:48] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[23:51:23] *** DrGonzo <DrGonzo!~DrBenway@modemcable080.164-57-74.mc.videotron.ca> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving...)[23:55:52] *** fatalhalt <fatalhalt!~fatalhalt@c-67-163-60-93.hsd1.il.comcast.net> has joined ##OpenGL