February 27, 2018 
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February 27, 2018 [00:00:14] <Shockk> I still don't understand how to do what I want to do though, but what you're saying makes sense[00:00:56] <Shockk> a simpler thing would be, I have a crosshair that draws at the center of the viewport, but I want that to be drawn correctly for each eye[00:01:20] <Shockk> if I just draw it at the center of both the left and right eyes, then I see two crosshairs when I'm wearing the HMD[00:01:33] <derhass> in the typical HMDs, there is no plane of zero parallax[00:01:43] *** SwiftMatt <SwiftMatt!~Objective@2601:282:4300:3e:5087:26d0:e8d4:4d52> has joined ##OpenGL[00:02:10] <derhass> so if you do what you are doing here, you are actually drawing this at distance + (or minus) infinity[00:02:42] <derhass> so you basically need to use a plane in 3D space, and just render that, with correct projection[00:03:37] <Shockk> right, I think we're on the same page now, that's what I'm attempting to do[00:03:59] <Shockk> my current attempts have failed though[00:04:05] <derhass> choose your plane, render it there[00:05:23] <derhass> since you probably want this in some way of screen-filling rectangle, you need to take the FoV (and asymmetry) of the projection matrices into account[00:05:29] *** BearishMushroom <BearishMushroom!~BearishMu@82-209-154-59.cust.bredband2.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[00:06:28] <derhass> and the overlap of the two frustums[00:06:51] *** rofl_ <rofl_!~rofl@2601:441:8680:4631:20b3:fc15:12c5:30d8> has joined ##OpenGL[00:07:38] <derhass> Shockk: I think you just need to draw it on paper[00:07:40] <Shockk> currently I've got my matrix that transforms texcoords into coords somewhere in the range [-1,1] (i.e. the space of my plane)[00:08:18] <Shockk> the part I'm struggling with though is going from that flat plane, to a plane in 3D space[00:08:19] <derhass> Shockk: transforming from that into you plane is trivial, you only need a simple basis transformation matric[00:08:35] <Shockk> hmm[00:08:42] <derhass> Shockk: by just putting a coordinate system on it[00:09:10] *** _gr3g_2 <_gr3g_2!~greg@pool-72-80-159-17.nycmny.fios.verizon.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:09:36] <Shockk> do I need to factor in the eye projection matrix, in doing that?[00:10:06] <derhass> Shockk: you don't even need to think about translates and scales. al;l you need are the two vectors for x and y axis, with regard to your target space[00:10:14] <derhass> and you can directly write the transformation matrix[00:10:24] <derhass> Shockk: not at this point[00:10:37] *** jcarpenter2 <jcarpenter2!rofl@2601:441:8680:4631:286c:d111:efd:a8bb> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[00:10:39] <derhass> Shockk: finding the "correct" plane position is actually the tricky part[00:10:50] <Shockk> that would lie between zNear and zFar right?[00:10:51] <derhass> but transforming your stuff onto that plane is a piece of cake[00:11:09] <derhass> Shockk: it should[00:11:26] *** _gr3g_2 <_gr3g_2!~greg@pool-72-80-159-17.nycmny.fios.verizon.net> has joined ##OpenGL[00:12:22] *** CoolerX <CoolerX!~coolerext@42.109.143.14> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[00:15:29] *** threenuc <threenuc!~threenuc@88.156.163.16> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[00:17:25] *** Waynes <Waynes!~Waynes@23.94.61.168> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)[00:19:43] *** Gama11 <Gama11!~quassel@p5DCDBC9F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:25:39] *** _gr3g_2 <_gr3g_2!~greg@pool-72-80-159-17.nycmny.fios.verizon.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:25:40] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-147-196-30.range86-147.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[00:27:38] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-147-196-30.range86-147.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##OpenGL[00:30:21] *** DrBenway <DrBenway!~DrBenway@modemcable080.164-57-74.mc.videotron.ca> has joined ##OpenGL[00:40:05] *** _gr3g_2 <_gr3g_2!~greg@pool-72-80-159-17.nycmny.fios.verizon.net> has joined ##OpenGL[00:40:16] *** nimitz <nimitz!~ztimin@24.157.180.57> has joined ##OpenGL[00:46:19] *** vtx <vtx!~vtx@cpc76428-belc8-2-0-cust570.2-1.cable.virginm.net> has joined ##OpenGL[00:46:28] *** nimitz <nimitz!~ztimin@24.157.180.57> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[00:50:14] *** MrFlibble <MrFlibble!MrFlibble@2.220.67.202> has joined ##OpenGL[00:51:01] <vtx> hi guys. i’ve recently discovered a bug that happens sometimes, and i’m not sure how to go about debugging it, or even what i could search for to get started on fixing it. when i compile and run my engine, my scene gets rendered incorrectly: https://image.ibb.co/m0vAkx/Screen_Shot_2018_02_26_at_23_22_57.png but then, re-running the same binary, with the same data, my scene is rendered correctly on the next run:[00:51:02] <vtx> https://image.ibb.co/eH8Vkx/Screen_Shot_2018_02_26_at_23_24_08.png because this happens only sometimes, i’m finding it really hard to debug. has anyone here experienced something like this happening before? does anyone have any ideas as to what could be causing this to happen? i guss in my uneducated mind, im thinking that maybe, my graphics card still has some textures left hanging after i exit the program, and then at some[00:51:03] <vtx> subsequent run, opengl cant get enough memory for textures, and reads in garbled textures? i have no idea whats happening, but it would be awesome if someone could give me some pointers on tracking down the source of the bug[00:51:08] *** DrBenway <DrBenway!~DrBenway@modemcable080.164-57-74.mc.videotron.ca> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:51:38] *** DrBenway <DrBenway!~DrBenway@modemcable080.164-57-74.mc.videotron.ca> has joined ##OpenGL[00:52:55] <vtx> in the incorrect render, although the textures used are all textures belonging to the scene, the texture coordinates seem to be completely haywire?[00:52:56] <derhass> vtx: sounds like undefined behavior[00:57:54] <vtx> derhass: in my glsl code, i use floats to represent the objects texture coordinates - is this okay? or should i use ints?[00:59:49] <chrisf> very unlikely to be your problem[01:00:53] <chrisf> use a graphics debugger[01:03:52] <vtx> okay, i’ll look into one, thanks[01:08:39] *** vtx <vtx!~vtx@cpc76428-belc8-2-0-cust570.2-1.cable.virginm.net> has quit IRC (Quit: vtx)[01:09:07] *** ephemer0l_ <ephemer0l_!~ephemer0l@pentoo/user/ephemer0l> has quit IRC (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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ZZZzzz…)[10:00:52] *** hampusw <hampusw!~Hampus@37.139.156.40> has joined ##OpenGL[10:07:29] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!c351a8d8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.81.168.216> has joined ##OpenGL[10:15:14] *** Cooler <Cooler!~Cooler@42.109.143.14> has joined ##OpenGL[10:18:16] *** vtx <vtx!~vtx@148.253.189.3> has joined ##OpenGL[10:18:50] *** iderik <iderik!~idk@h-0-97.A147.priv.bahnhof.se> has joined ##OpenGL[10:22:42] *** vtx <vtx!~vtx@148.253.189.3> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[10:29:49] *** stefkos_win <stefkos_win!~Pawel@pc11-226.chomiczowka.waw.pl> has joined ##OpenGL[10:30:10] *** vtx <vtx!~vtx@148.253.189.3> has joined ##OpenGL[10:33:05] *** stefkos <stefkos!~Pawel@pc11-226.chomiczowka.waw.pl> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[10:38:05] *** xaxxon <xaxxon!~xaxxon@73.109.62.171> has joined ##OpenGL[10:39:37] *** nimitz <nimitz!~ztimin@24.157.180.57> has joined ##OpenGL[10:42:17] *** Matthijs <Matthijs!~quassel@unaffiliated/matthijs> has joined ##OpenGL[10:45:37] *** nimitz <nimitz!~ztimin@24.157.180.57> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)[10:50:43] *** ``Erik <``Erik!~erik@pool-100-16-20-94.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[10:50:48] *** stefkos_win <stefkos_win!~Pawel@pc11-226.chomiczowka.waw.pl> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[10:51:00] *** ``Erik <``Erik!~erik@pool-100-16-20-94.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net> has joined ##OpenGL[10:51:23] *** Serpent7776 <Serpent7776!~Serpent77@90-156-68-175.internetia.net.pl> has joined ##OpenGL[10:52:28] <xaxxon> I go through my game and do all my updates and then I have multiple layers to render from that data that is now static until the beginning of the next frame.. it makes sense to hand off the data for rendering a single layer to another thread to make the opengl calls while the previous thread goes and assembles the next layer's data, right? Then just wait til all the rendering calls are done before going into updating for the next frame..[10:53:18] <xaxxon> or I guess i could even have N threads building the data for M layers at once and then just make sure to submit them in the right order.. but that's probably not necessary for my level of complexity[11:00:53] *** jdashg <jdashg!~jdashg@c-73-71-138-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[11:01:33] *** immibis <immibis!~chatzilla@222-155-160-32.jetstream.xtra.co.nz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[11:02:16] <Stragus> xaxxon: You can have other threads write the memory of mapped buffers, if that's suitable for you[11:02:48] <Stragus> Ideally, you would try to somehow minimize the amount of data that needs to be written each frame[11:03:14] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!c351a8d8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.81.168.216> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[11:03:22] <xaxxon> Stragus: ahh, that seems a little too scary for me :)[11:03:37] <xaxxon> having threads fill shared buffers directly :)[11:03:56] <xaxxon> also I'm pretty wasteful with my opengl buffers.. I think I regenerate them every frame[11:04:09] <xaxxon> because I don't know how big I'm going to want them[11:04:25] <xaxxon> I guess I could just oversize them and then only re-allocate when needed?[11:06:24] *** kamba <kamba!~openwrt@88.200.98.81> has left ##OpenGL ("Konversation terminated!")[11:14:59] *** Kane <Kane!~Kane@home.yarg.fr> has joined ##OpenGL[11:21:38] *** Asu <Asu!~sdelang@AMarseille-658-1-126-105.w86-219.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined ##OpenGL[11:39:37] *** nimitz <nimitz!~ztimin@24.157.180.57> has joined ##OpenGL[11:45:37] *** nimitz <nimitz!~ztimin@24.157.180.57> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[11:52:47] *** lucaswang <lucaswang!~lucaswang@114.84.215.114> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[11:53:17] *** lucaswang <lucaswang!~lucaswang@114.84.215.114> has joined ##OpenGL[11:54:20] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d108-180-237-219.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Just Monica.)[11:57:42] *** lucaswang <lucaswang!~lucaswang@114.84.215.114> 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with GLM, if I do `mat4 transform = proj; transform = translate(transform, Point3(0, 0, -zNear));`[20:22:25] <Shockk> is this going to equate to `mat4 transform = proj * translate(Point3(0, 0, -zNear));` ?[20:23:29] *** slidercrank <slidercrank!~slidercra@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/fifth/slidercrank> has joined ##OpenGL[20:30:23] *** MrFlibble <MrFlibble!MrFlibble2@176.251.71.19> has quit IRC (Disconnected by services)[20:30:24] *** MrFlibble2 <MrFlibble2!MrFlibble@2.219.208.181> has joined ##OpenGL[20:32:59] *** realzies <realzies!~realz@unaffiliated/realazthat> has joined ##OpenGL[20:33:11] <dav1d> Shockk: disclaimer: never used glm - but I did write a math library that gets used by people who did use glm, I think glm does the multiplication backwards[20:33:23] <Shockk> ah I see[20:33:35] <Shockk> so it'd be transform = translate(..) * proj in that case?[20:34:16] <Shockk> I feel like I should avoid doing it procedurally like that and just do the multiplications myself so I know what's going on[20:34:31] <realzies> hey guys[20:34:52] <DarkUranium> dav1d, "backwards"?[20:34:57] <realzies> i been trying to use imageStore() but whatever i do i can't get the image to change :/[20:35:01] *** fritz <fritz!~fritz@mail12.shutterfly.com> has joined ##OpenGL[20:35:05] <dav1d> Shockk: yes, but best is you find that out, just let glm multiply, print out the matrix and compare[20:35:15] <realzies> any off-the-cuff ideas?[20:35:21] <Shockk> dav1d: right good idea[20:35:27] <dav1d> Shockk: https://github.com/Dav1dde/gl3n/issues/81 that was the issue (maybe it helps)[20:35:42] <dav1d> DarkUranium: A * B instead of B * A[20:35:57] <snyp> realzies, are you using glMemoryBarrier correctly?[20:35:57] <DarkUranium> dav1d, wait, what do you do?[20:36:11] <DarkUranium> give me a vector+model matrix+view matrix example[20:36:25] <dav1d> DarkUranium: I dont do anything[20:36:30] <DarkUranium> <_<[20:36:33] <dav1d> ?[20:36:36] <realzies> snyp: I'm using it, how do I know if it is correct?[20:36:37] <DarkUranium> your lib, I mean.[20:37:09] <dav1d> DarkUranium: it's in the issue (with examples) https://github.com/Dav1dde/gl3n/issues/81[20:37:45] <dav1d> DarkUranium: basically A.translate(x, y, z) = Translation(x, y, z) * A[20:37:55] <DarkUranium> dav1d, that your code or glm version?[20:38:04] <dav1d> DarkUranium: my code, glm does it the other way round[20:38:05] <realzies> snyp: omg maybe that is it, I'll try the all-bits flag[20:38:22] <DarkUranium> dav1d, huh. That sounds stupid. The glm approach, I mean.[20:38:38] <dav1d> agreed[20:38:42] *** bellbreaker <bellbreaker!~husker@77.11.150.83.ftth.as8758.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[20:38:44] <snyp> realzies, depends on what you're trying to do, i'd think. GL_SHADER_IMAGE_ACCESS_BARRIER_BIT <--- This is the flag to use when you want to use to ensure that writes to the image have completed in the draw command.[20:38:47] <DarkUranium> I know D3D uses it, doesn't mean I agree with it![20:38:54] <dav1d> DarkUranium: http://www.c-jump.com/bcc/common/Talk3/Math/GLM/W01_0130_glmscale.htm[20:39:00] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mzgy0p2f49u7u.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[20:39:02] <dav1d> DarkUranium: see the first code[20:39:18] <realzies> snyp: ah darn I already had that :/[20:39:18] <dav1d> `When using glm::scale( X, vec3 ), you are multiplying X * glm::scale( Identity, vec3 )'[20:39:19] *** nimitz <nimitz!~ztimin@24.157.180.57> has joined ##OpenGL[20:39:27] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mzgy0p2f49u7u.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##OpenGL[20:40:25] <DarkUranium> dav1d, =\[20:40:52] <dav1d> seemed very counterintuitive to me when I found that out[20:41:05] *** avis- <avis-!~ident@pdpc/supporter/student/avis> has left ##OpenGL ("Leaving")[20:43:29] <DarkUranium> dav1d, it is. One, GLSL does right-multiplication of vectors (I mean, you can technically load matrices transposed, et cetera --- but its convention ...)[20:43:41] <DarkUranium> and two, the GLSL way also just happend to be the linear algebra way.[20:43:56] <DarkUranium> I have a math lib of my own, and I multiply vectors on the right.[20:44:02] <snyp> realzies, does using all-flags work?[20:44:22] <realzies> snyp: nope :/[20:44:47] <dav1d> DarkUranium: tbh I just went with what feels most natural to use, hence why I have row-major matrices and easily chainable operations[20:45:35] <DarkUranium> dav1d, well, you can chain the other way around (e.g. vec * modelMat * viewMat instead of viewMat * modelMat * vec)[20:45:38] <dav1d> row major may have been a mistake (GLES has no GL_TRANSPOSE) in the grand scheme of things, for me personally it wasn't[20:45:58] <dav1d> DarkUranium: that's not how the math works[20:46:17] <dav1d> DarkUranium: also I meant more like A.transpose().rotate().scale()[20:46:26] <DarkUranium> right[20:46:27] *** borkr <borkr!~borkr@static130-244.mimer.net> has joined ##OpenGL[20:46:34] <realzies> snyp: I think i'm going to have to do massive surgery and get this reduced to a simple problem[20:46:56] *** nimitz <nimitz!~ztimin@24.157.180.57> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[20:47:02] *** Lucretia <Lucretia!~laguest@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[20:47:03] <DarkUranium> dav1d, where's the problem with left-multiplying it?[20:47:09] *** threenuc <threenuc!~threenuc@88.156.163.16> has joined ##OpenGL[20:47:19] <snyp> yeah.. check if you're writing to proper coordinates, etc.[20:47:24] <Shockk> I think I'm finally making progress with trying to figure out my text glyph matrix transformations, doing loads of drawings to see how I need to change the origin at each stage[20:47:27] <dav1d> DarkUranium: no problem per-se, just not what I would expect[20:47:35] <DarkUranium> dav1d, ah.[20:47:41] <dav1d> in the end it doesnt matter if you know how it "works"[20:47:47] <DarkUranium> same here. Again, in LA, you're supposed to do the "GLSL" way (... * vec)[20:48:06] *** iderik <iderik!~idk@h-0-97.A147.priv.bahnhof.se> has quit IRC (Quit: iderik)[20:48:14] *** MrFlibble2 <MrFlibble2!MrFlibble@2.219.208.181> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[20:48:16] <DarkUranium> dav1d, from what I understand, programmers even do that in HLSL nowadays. Despite it, historically, being the opposite.[20:48:23] *** Albori <Albori!~Albori@64-251-148-158.fidnet.com> has joined ##OpenGL[20:48:44] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-157-70-106.range86-157.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[20:48:49] <dav1d> mh, makes sense to me[20:49:34] <DarkUranium> the GLSL order even makes sense from a programming perspective.[20:50:05] <DarkUranium> In the sense that `viewMat * modelMat * vec` matches, syntactic order-wise, applyCamera(moveModel(vec))[20:50:35] <snyp> I like right multiplication a little more since it's easier to read, but almost all math books use left multiplication.[20:50:57] <DarkUranium> snyp, you need to clarify now. Are we talking left multiplication of the matrix, or the vector?[20:51:27] <snyp> v_new = v_original * M <-- left multiplication[20:51:34] <snyp> err..[20:51:37] <DarkUranium> not the math books I've seen[20:51:37] <snyp> right multiplication[20:51:40] *** geo5 <geo5!~geo5@2601:601:1800:53a4::54a> has joined ##OpenGL[20:51:40] <DarkUranium> oh.[20:51:41] <DarkUranium> then yes.[20:51:57] <DarkUranium> honestly, I find M*v to be easier to read, than v*M[20:52:03] <DarkUranium> I guess it boils down to what you're accustomed to[20:52:30] *** Lucretia <Lucretia!~laguest@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia> has joined ##OpenGL[20:52:30] <dav1d> I think I've only ever seen the vector on the right[20:52:32] <snyp> M * v looks more like function application, as if yeah.. you're 'applying' a transform.[20:52:44] <snyp> M(v)[20:52:57] <DarkUranium> snyp, or, from a mathematical convention standpoint, the M is typically the constant there.[20:53:02] <DarkUranium> you write 3x, not x3[20:53:16] <dav1d> never thought about it like that[20:53:32] <snyp> me neither lol[20:53:39] <DarkUranium> it helps if you think of it in terms of spaces (let P,V,M be the projection,view,and model matrices, respectively; then v is in model space, M*v is in world, V*world is in view, et cetera)[20:54:00] <DarkUranium> which is kind of like function application, sure.[20:55:31] *** stefkos_win <stefkos_win!~Pawel@pc11-226.chomiczowka.waw.pl> has joined ##OpenGL[20:55:32] <DarkUranium> at any rate![20:55:43] <DarkUranium> Mv is good, vM is heresy, and those people will be put to the sword![20:55:55] *** borkr <borkr!~borkr@static130-244.mimer.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[20:56:02] <DarkUranium> dav1d, BTW, I've tried using glm once. Compiler warnings *EVERYWHERE* about stuff glm did in its headers.[20:56:18] <DarkUranium> And that was with only -Wall. I shudder to think what stuff like -Wextra would've uncovered[20:56:22] <dav1d> I tried creating bindings for D[20:56:23] <dav1d> lmao[20:56:39] <dav1d> for like 2 hours, then I realized what glm is[20:56:44] <dav1d> and started from scratch[20:56:47] <DarkUranium> haha[20:56:48] <DarkUranium> smart.[20:57:03] <DarkUranium> I'm pretty happy with my mat lib ATM[20:57:24] <DarkUranium> it's not very customizable (e.g. it has a hardcoded +z=UP at the moment because that's what I need), but eh[20:57:29] *** _gr3g_2 <_gr3g_2!~greg@pool-72-80-159-17.nycmny.fios.verizon.net> has joined ##OpenGL[20:57:39] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d108-180-237-219.bchsia.telus.net> has joined ##OpenGL[20:57:49] <dav1d> meh that's what opengl does, good enough[20:58:02] <DarkUranium> no, opengl is +z=backwards[20:58:05] <dav1d> wait[20:58:13] <DarkUranium> (out of screen)[20:58:17] <dav1d> yeah[20:58:19] <dav1d> lol[20:58:27] <DarkUranium> I just like z=UP coordinate systems, so.[20:58:40] <dav1d> lemmy rephrase it, it works for you, good enough[20:58:42] <DarkUranium> I find it easier to wrap my head around them.[20:58:54] <DarkUranium> Ultimately, it's just pre-multiplying the projection matrix with a "swizzle" matrix[20:59:06] <DarkUranium> (... which is of course trivially embedded *during* generation of the projection matrix)[20:59:08] <dav1d> you find Z upward easier than Y?[20:59:11] <DarkUranium> yes.[20:59:27] <dav1d> it would confuse the fuck out of me[20:59:38] <DarkUranium> *shrug* :P[20:59:46] <DarkUranium> that's for world space, mind you[20:59:52] <dav1d> just from going from 2 dimensional (Y is UP) to 3 dimensional[21:00:04] <dav1d> just easier to add Z as depth[21:00:10] <DarkUranium> but hey, at least my lib calls the operations by their proper names! (e.g. there's no 2D cross product => scalar thing ... not by that name, at least)[21:04:51] *** DonVlad <DonVlad!~Murii@79.113.205.114> has joined ##OpenGL[21:09:02] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mzgy0p2f49u7u.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[21:09:27] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7mzgy0p2f49u7u.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has joined ##OpenGL[21:09:37] <Shockk> am I right in thinking, if I do a z-axis translation and I do an x-axis and y-axis scale, leaving z scale untouched,[21:09:41] <Shockk> I can do those in any order?[21:13:55] *** tambre <tambre!~tambre@da40-d8dc-0637-59f5-ab80-8a0a-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)[21:15:35] *** doek <doek!~doek@2.56.62.188.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[21:18:47] <snyp> despite severe insecurity regarding my maths, I'll go ahead and say yes.[21:26:22] *** immibis <immibis!~chatzilla@222-155-160-32.jetstream.xtra.co.nz> has joined ##OpenGL[21:35:57] *** _gr3g_2 <_gr3g_2!~greg@pool-72-80-159-17.nycmny.fios.verizon.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[21:39:21] *** nimitz <nimitz!~ztimin@24.157.180.57> has joined ##OpenGL[21:44:53] *** nimitz <nimitz!~ztimin@24.157.180.57> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[21:45:19] *** _gr3g_2 <_gr3g_2!~greg@pool-72-80-159-17.nycmny.fios.verizon.net> has joined ##OpenGL[21:48:13] *** slvn_ <slvn_!~slvn_@78.245.90.111> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[21:53:19] *** skizzy <skizzy!~skizzy@172.58.171.171> has joined ##OpenGL[21:53:37] *** jdashg <jdashg!~jdashg@corp-nat.fw1.untrust.mtv2.mozilla.net> has joined ##OpenGL[21:54:05] <skizzy> I am trying to follow lazyfoo's sdl2 and opengl tutorial. I have SDL2 working but now it's including <GL\GLU.h>. Do I need to install GlU? and where do i get it from? I'm on windows[21:54:13] <skizzy> I am confused do i need to get GLUT?[21:55:59] <skizzy> It's not complaining about not finding the header but getting undefined reference to GlMatrixMode[21:56:03] *** immibis <immibis!~chatzilla@222-155-160-32.jetstream.xtra.co.nz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[21:59:23] *** MrFlibble <MrFlibble!MrFlibble2@2.124.191.83> has joined ##OpenGL[22:01:44] <dav1d> skizzy: you might wanna abstain from everything GL < 3.0 (fixed pipeline) and anything that teaches you to use GLU(T)[22:02:06] *** GinoMan <GinoMan!~GinoMan@pool-72-78-205-80.phlapa.fios.verizon.net> has joined ##OpenGL[22:02:16] *** Elysion <Elysion!~Elysion@124-169-216-197.dyn.iinet.net.au> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[22:03:21] <dav1d> skizzy: https://learnopengl.com/ is a good resource[22:04:17] *** snyp <snyp!~Snyp@103.56.236.91> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[22:17:01] <skizzy> dav1d, I found out i had to add -lopengl32 to linker flags[22:17:27] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@unaffiliated/goiko> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[22:17:33] <dav1d> what I said still counts[22:17:43] <skizzy> oh and yes i will stick to the older version :)[22:17:47] <dav1d> this is just very outdated[22:17:54] <dav1d> why learn something obsolete?[22:18:07] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@unaffiliated/goiko> has joined ##OpenGL[22:18:31] <skizzy> i thought it would be simpler? I don't need the newest stuff[22:18:39] <dav1d> it's not simpler[22:18:43] <skizzy> is 3 and greater better for beginners?[22:18:48] *** derhass <derhass!~derhass@dslb-094-222-155-209.094.222.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined ##OpenGL[22:18:59] <dav1d> not for the first 10 hours[22:19:02] *** ImQ009 <ImQ009!~ImQ009@unaffiliated/imq009> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[22:19:05] <dav1d> after the first 10 hours, yes[22:19:39] <dav1d> if you want to draw hardocded triangles, fixed pipeline is easier but I dont think that's the endgoal here[22:20:02] <skizzy> hmm. Do i need to get any other libraries other than the opengl I have. It was jsut in my mingw directory[22:20:05] <skizzy> not sure what installed it[22:20:36] <Stragus> Use SDL2 or GLFW, and GLAD or GLEW. Nothing else[22:20:42] <skizzy> I'm new to this, coming from a Python background[22:20:52] <skizzy> I am using SDL2[22:21:00] *** woddy <woddy!~woddy@unaffiliated/woddy> has joined ##OpenGL[22:21:10] <skizzy> maybe I should learn opengl with Python first then move to c++[22:21:33] <Stragus> If you already know C++, then follow with it[22:21:33] <dav1d> then you're already set[22:22:35] <skizzy> so far the only problems with C++ i've had are setting up my environment and getting the proper linker settings etc[22:22:46] <skizzy> the rest is the same but different syntax by far[22:23:08] <woddy> skizzy, heh, I have that problem right now :>[22:23:32] <skizzy> yeah not a lot covers the basics. i found the gnu handbook on gcc i forget the name that explained a lot[22:24:08] <skizzy> it explained linker flags and how they work. I don't know enough about it but it filled int eh gaps I didn't understand up to this point[22:24:09] <Stragus> Passing a few -l... arguments shouldn't be too hard[22:24:32] <woddy> Stragus, yeah unless you pass them and it still doesn't work[22:24:44] <Stragus> Ask here then[22:24:50] <skizzy> yeah now it's not so bad but i mean I'm sure others are in the position where environment setup is hard[22:25:30] <jdashg> tbh if you want to learn GL without dealing with setup, WebGL Just Works.[22:26:20] <Stragus> I believe WebGL is over a decade behind modern GL[22:26:33] <DarkUranium> jdashg, (*) Terms and conditions may apply.[22:26:48] <DarkUranium> Stragus, it's basically GLES 2, stripped down even more.[22:27:02] <jdashg> WebGL 2 also works pretty well[22:27:05] <jdashg> which is GLES3[22:27:26] <DarkUranium> True. Though I'd argue compute shaders are a useful think to know how to use, and WebGL 2 won't help you there.[22:27:27] <jdashg> which, if you're learning GL for the first time, is more than you need[22:27:36] <DarkUranium> s/think/thing/[22:28:20] <jdashg> I would absolutely not start someone learning GL with compute shaders :)[22:29:11] <DarkUranium> not start, no[22:29:16] <DarkUranium> but move onto, at some point[22:29:33] <jdashg> perfect is enemy of the good :)[22:29:35] <jdashg> Start simple.[22:30:02] <jdashg> You can do awesome stuff sans compute. Compute's a super sharp tool.[22:30:09] <DarkUranium> skizzy, BTW, dav1d mentioned you might wanna abstain from everything GL < 3.0[22:30:16] <DarkUranium> I'd change that into a <=[22:30:22] <derhass> <3.2[22:30:36] <DarkUranium> derhass, sure. But at absolute minimum, <= 3.0[22:30:48] <skizzy> DarkUranium, how do i tell which version i'm running?[22:30:56] <skizzy> I'm using the SDL_opengl.h i guess[22:31:04] <DarkUranium> I've no idea what SDL_opengl.h is.[22:31:06] <skizzy> latest SDL built[22:31:07] <jdashg> skizzy, you won't know until you make a context[22:31:11] *** DonVlad <DonVlad!~Murii@79.113.205.114> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 1.4)[22:31:17] <woddy> so, I use Ubuntu 16.04, I used apt to install the librarys[22:31:18] <DarkUranium> and you should always, *ALWAYS* request a specific version, otherwise SDL will give you some random compatibility profile[22:31:21] <woddy> thats what I get:[22:31:21] <woddy> https://pastebin.com/DaDJECz2[22:31:25] <jdashg> Different drivers support different versions, and you have to play the request-a-version game[22:31:30] <DarkUranium> for learning, stick with core profile (actually, I don't think there's a reason to use compat even if NOT learning)[22:31:55] <Yaniel> the request-a-version-and-guess-whether-you-actually-got-it game[22:32:07] <derhass> Yaniel: why guessing[22:32:09] <derhass> ?[22:32:13] <DarkUranium> Yaniel, no need to guess, SDL has things that allow you to query that.[22:32:14] <skizzy> DarkUranium, I don't even know what a core profile is yet :) I just came here cause i had a opengl/glu setup issue. Havne't actually started learning it yet[22:32:27] <Yaniel> well you can check with glGet[22:32:32] <derhass> the spec requires the returned context to be compatible to the requested version[22:32:37] <DarkUranium> skizzy, desktop OpenGL >= 3.1 (or was that 3.2?) is split into two profiles[22:32:49] <derhass> DarkUranium: 3.2[22:32:55] <DarkUranium> derhass, thought so.[22:33:07] *** slime <slime!~slime73@24.215.81.93> has joined ##OpenGL[22:33:17] <DarkUranium> skizzy, compatibility, which basically re-enables a bunch of legacy stuff that's deprecated (and is often limited to e.g. 3.0 max)[22:33:32] <jdashg> skizzy, I'm incredibly biased, but I think https://webglfundamentals.org/ is a great intro resource for early GL in general[22:33:32] <DarkUranium> skizzy, and core, which has no legacy stuff.[22:33:47] <skizzy> ah i get it[22:33:55] <skizzy> jdashg, thanks i'll check that out[22:33:56] <DarkUranium> honestly, I'd try the latest desktop version you can get, for learning.[22:34:11] <DarkUranium> and I'd avoid WebGL 1.0, it's ancient (even if it is easier to start)[22:34:18] <DarkUranium> it's not as if desktop's hard once you figure out linking (which isn't hard)[22:34:28] <DarkUranium> well, it isn't ancient, but its feature set it.[22:34:54] *** Quetzal2 <Quetzal2!~Quetzal2@unaffiliated/quetzal2> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[22:35:13] <DarkUranium> skizzy, correction. s/deprecated/removed/ on re-enabling the legacy stuff. It's not only deprecated in core/modern standard, it's outright removed. Compatibility puts it back.[22:35:13] <woddy> Stragus, you told me to ask here :)[22:35:32] <jdashg> WebGL 2 is also an option for something less ancient.[22:35:38] <DarkUranium> Yes.[22:36:05] <jdashg> I do think it's useful to start out small though. Easier to wrap your head around, while not teaching a bunch of the old-and-busted concepts[22:36:09] <woddy> never mind[22:36:10] <woddy> :>[22:36:25] <woddy> problem seems to be with eclipse..[22:36:26] <DarkUranium> jdashg, yes and no. Start out small, yes, of course.[22:36:28] <woddy> works inc ommand line[22:36:39] <skizzy> but this webglfundamentals.com will teach me the basics of the right version of opengl? like the same functions will exist in c++ desktop opengl[22:36:52] <DarkUranium> But starting with WebGL 1.0 will basically mean he has to switch to desktop and learn all of the differences when he wants to move on to things even *SLIGHTLY* advanced[22:37:00] <jdashg> skizzy, with very few exceptions, yes[22:37:05] <DarkUranium> plus, there's the issue of modern best practices, which WebGL 1.0 won't teach you.[22:37:07] <DarkUranium> skizzy, ^[22:37:14] <skizzy> I'll invest in a book but now no idea which one[22:37:31] <DarkUranium> skizzy, WebGL 1.0 is not based off of desktop GL.[22:37:36] <DarkUranium> skizzy, it's based off of OpenGL ES[22:37:38] <jdashg> If you start off in the deep end, you'll probably drown before you get hooked.[22:37:39] <skizzy> yeah i'd like to learn the route that will get me to making desktop opengl applications[22:37:57] <derhass> then start with desktop GL[22:38:07] <DarkUranium> jdashg, simply using a modern version is not "starting off in the deep end". I'd argue, if he wants to make desktop applications, WebGL is a nonsensible choice.[22:38:07] <skizzy> I'm pretty persistent when it comes to learning things. I'm not that bright but I keep at it until I figure it out[22:38:23] <jdashg> DarkUranium, for learning purposes, it's straight-up superior[22:38:24] <DarkUranium> skizzy, which GPU do you have? Which OS?[22:38:29] <DarkUranium> jdashg, no. It really isn't.[22:38:30] <jdashg> much, much better warnings[22:38:34] <DarkUranium> eh?[22:38:44] <DarkUranium> you do realize desktop has KHR_debug nowadays, right?[22:38:49] <jdashg> Browsers give way better feedback than KHR_debug[22:38:58] <skizzy> I am not sure of my exact gpu it's a built in nvidia chipset though in a laptop.. i'm on windows 7[22:39:07] <jdashg> I implement WebGL in Firefox, and consume KHR_debug. :)[22:39:18] <DarkUranium> jdashg, it's like learning PHP using ancient tutorials that do `mysql_query("SELECT * FROM table WHERE id = $id");` without sanitizing data[22:39:19] *** nimitz <nimitz!~ztimin@24.157.180.57> has joined ##OpenGL[22:39:34] <DarkUranium> jdashg, in the same sense that, although it'll kind of teach you PHP, it really won't cover any best practices, and you'll be using ancient idioms[22:39:39] <skizzy> DarkUranium, yeah I don't want that. i get that analogy[22:39:51] <skizzy> I'd like to learn in the way i'll actually build applications[22:39:52] <DarkUranium> skizzy, it's not *QUITE* as bad, the analogy was also a hyperbole to demonstrate the point.[22:39:59] <jdashg> DarkUranium, why not start with Vulkan then.[22:40:03] <jdashg> That's the actual best-practice.[22:40:11] <DarkUranium> jdashg, you're implying GL is dead.[22:40:28] <jdashg> DarkUranium, no, it's just not the end-all best practice for performant graphics anymore.[22:40:40] <DarkUranium> no, but it still is for portable graphics.[22:40:58] <DarkUranium> and much of modern GL will apply to Vulkan, without so much boilerplate[22:41:00] <jdashg> Only arguably, particularly with MoltenVK[22:41:01] <Shockk> woo! I managed to get my text to render properly in VR after 2 days of work :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZr4dRXtQ9Q[22:41:18] <DarkUranium> jdashg, you're implying GLES2 devices do not exist.[22:41:23] <DarkUranium> Shockk, nice![22:41:34] <DarkUranium> gz :D[22:41:36] <Shockk> it's not ideal, thoguh[22:41:38] <Shockk> though*[22:41:42] <DarkUranium> in what sense?[22:41:44] <jdashg> As an implementer of WebGL1 on Android, I certainly am not.[22:42:03] <skizzy> is opengl superbible a decent book?[22:42:16] <Shockk> right now I just project the UI onto a plane in front of the zNear plane[22:42:18] <DarkUranium> skizzy, and yeah, sorry about all this, all the conflicting advice must be confusing.[22:42:25] <DarkUranium> no idea, never read a GL book, myself.[22:42:29] <jdashg> skizzy, IMO it's not worth the time to read. It's ok.[22:42:31] <Shockk> ideally it'd be a curved plane to make it easier on the eyes[22:42:49] <skizzy> I'm learning c++ AND opengl at the same time. I come from many years of Python development profesionally though so I understand c++ I just have to read reference all the time[22:42:53] <skizzy> I'm slow at it in other words[22:42:54] <Shockk> and ideally it'd also be semi-worldspace rather than stuck to the player's face[22:43:21] <DarkUranium> skizzy, for step 1, I'd forget about GL, and just get a SDL2 window open & going. Adding GL to that is then just a few more lines.[22:43:23] <Shockk> it'd be nice to have it kind of float or drift into the right position if the player moves their head but that's a lot more complicated than what I have right now[22:43:34] *** David3k <David3k!~David3k@120.29.112.59> has joined ##OpenGL[22:43:41] <skizzy> DarkUranium, I've got a little game running on SDL2 already :)[22:43:46] <jdashg> skizzy, webgl will get you up and running faster, and is a solid jumping-off point into higher-performance modern opengl in the future[22:43:52] <DarkUranium> skizzy, ah, fair enough ^^[22:44:05] *** krystcich <krystcich!~krystcich@178235146142.dynamic-zab-01.vectranet.pl> has quit IRC (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))[22:44:07] <DarkUranium> jdashg, disagree, on both points.[22:44:28] <jdashg> I don't know what to tell you then. This is what I do.[22:44:30] <skizzy> jdashg, I may learn it because I also have a dream of making a web based game one day[22:44:33] <DarkUranium> err, 2 out of 3 (sure, it'll get him up&running faster, at least)[22:45:00] <skizzy> Plenty of time to learn both ways[22:45:05] <skizzy> I've got all the time in the world[22:45:11] *** nimitz <nimitz!~ztimin@24.157.180.57> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[22:45:12] *** threenuc <threenuc!~threenuc@88.156.163.16> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[22:45:15] <DarkUranium> skizzy, you *could* attempt OpenGL ES 3.0 on the desktop. Assuming your driver is up to date, that'll work, and then you can use emscripten or something to compile your *desktop* game for the web[22:45:26] <DarkUranium> but honestly, I'd go for the most modern GL version you can manage, but that's just my advice.[22:45:45] <DarkUranium> an alternative advice would be to go for a) 4.3, b) 4.1, or c) 3.3; depending on who you ask.[22:45:47] <jdashg> (emscripten supports pretending to be desktop GL, iirc)[22:45:50] <skizzy> I also wish to support older hardware[22:45:54] <DarkUranium> jdashg, AFAIK, that's buggy.[22:46:00] <skizzy> my games won't be cutting edge[22:46:11] <jdashg> DarkUranium, so's the ES3, hah[22:46:11] <DarkUranium> skizzy, 3.3 would be a good choice, then. Though for learning, might as well try more modern, first?[22:46:12] <skizzy> I'm a 1 man shop making little arcade games now trying to make a rpg[22:46:20] <DarkUranium> jdashg, why and how is it buggy?[22:46:25] <DarkUranium> I've yet to find an ES3 bug.[22:46:28] <jdashg> DarkUranium, map(READ) isn't even hooked up[22:46:36] <DarkUranium> you mean in WebGL2?[22:46:37] <DarkUranium> or what?[22:46:49] <jdashg> in emscripten's GL implementation[22:47:29] <DarkUranium> jdashg, ES3 doesn't use emscripten's GL implementation ...[22:47:33] <DarkUranium> jdashg, it maps to WebGL 2 calls.[22:47:52] <jdashg> How does it implement map(READ) then?[22:48:01] <DarkUranium> I dunno, how does WebGL 2 implement map(READ)?[22:48:16] <jdashg> getBufferSubData[22:48:32] <DarkUranium> then there's your answer.[22:48:37] <DarkUranium> it's literally a mapping to WebGL.[22:48:42] <DarkUranium> `-s USE_WEBGL2=1` flag.[22:49:01] <jdashg> DarkUranium, getBufferSubData isn't in ES[22:49:30] <jdashg> we pulled it into WebGL2 from desktop GL because we didn't think we could implement map semantics usefully[22:49:33] <jdashg> /safely[22:49:44] <DarkUranium> *shrug*[22:49:53] <DarkUranium> again, there's your answer then.[22:50:24] <DarkUranium> https://kripken.github.io/emscripten-site/docs/porting/multimedia_and_graphics/OpenGL-support.html[22:50:35] <jdashg> DarkUranium, https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/blob/master/src/library_gl.js#L1570[22:51:06] <DarkUranium> jdashg, "WebGL-friendly subset of OpenGL ES 2.0/3.0 (default) — supports the set of OpenGL ES 2.0/3.0 commands that map directly to WebGL 1/2."[22:51:13] <DarkUranium> then there's "OpenGL ES 2.0/3.0 emulation — support for some emulated OpenGL ES 2.0/3.0 features that are not present in WebGL."[22:51:20] <DarkUranium> happy?[22:51:33] <DarkUranium> I sent you a link, but apparently, I have to paste it into this for you to attempt to read things.[22:52:19] <skizzy> jdashg, should i do webglfundamentals.com or webgl2fundamentals.com?[22:52:47] <dav1d> skizzy: are you set on a language you wanna use?[22:52:52] <jdashg> skizzy, I would start with 1, if you're really new to graphics. I haven't looked at the webgl2 one yet[22:52:55] <skizzy> not really set no[22:53:02] <dav1d> ok[22:53:10] <skizzy> I'm debating sticking to python, c++ or maybe webgl[22:53:11] <jdashg> DarkUranium, you can take that to be true, but I suspect it is not[22:53:28] <DarkUranium> dav1d, he did mention he wanted to do desktop dev, FWIW. But jdashg keeps suggesting WebGL 1, despite its ancient feature set =\[22:53:35] <DarkUranium> (and outdated practices in some places)[22:53:38] <dav1d> tbh I'd not do webgl, JS is just awful, it's managable with a decent base framework and coffee/typescript[22:53:46] <skizzy> I'm not even set in platform yet[22:53:57] <skizzy> just making simple little games in every tech[22:54:39] <skizzy> then something will click eventually that i want to stick to[22:55:01] <skizzy> I even made a game in Haxe[22:55:13] <skizzy> I used HaxePunk[22:55:17] <dav1d> Personally I'd go for a C near language with modern GL >= 3.3. Simply because you have to most resources available and you are low level enough that messing with arrays is not total cancer (JavaScript)[22:55:47] <jdashg> TypedArrays are fine[22:55:52] <dav1d> yes, "fine"[22:55:58] <skizzy> that is es6 feature?[22:56:06] <jdashg> no, it's been around for 8 years[22:56:09] <dav1d> not speaking of matrices and vectors[22:56:15] <dav1d> and conversions[22:56:24] <DarkUranium> yeah, matrix & vector math is going to be a royal PITA in JavaScript.[22:56:58] <dav1d> it's a fucking pain compared to everything else, not speaking of the performance loss so you end up just doing everything in a shader[22:57:18] <dav1d> nothing I'd would wanna deal with when starting out[22:58:15] <skizzy> I am partial to using c++ lately just cause it's what I'm currently learning. I figured it would mix well with my Python abilities since I can use it along side Python[22:58:16] <dav1d> Yes there are libraries for all of that, but then might as well start with Unity or Unreal (obv. overdrawn comparison)[22:59:01] <DarkUranium> dav1d, even libraries won't help him much, since JS lacks operator overloading and/or stack-allocated structures.[22:59:04] *** xerpi <xerpi!~xerpi@98.red-88-23-235.staticip.rima-tde.net> has joined ##OpenGL[22:59:30] <skizzy> yeah I like the few vector libraries I've used that used operator overloading for adding them together etc[22:59:39] <skizzy> my math is even getting better with this :)[22:59:53] <DarkUranium> skizzy, JS has none of that, you see.[22:59:55] <DarkUranium> It's basically:[23:00:05] <jdashg> that part is certainly nicer, but it's still viable, particularly for learning[23:00:19] <DarkUranium> new Vec4(...).add(new Vec4(...).multiply(...))[23:00:25] <dav1d> DarkUranium: Java also has no operator overloading, it's managable, foo.plus(bar) is "ok"[23:00:39] <DarkUranium> dav1d, for some definition of "ok".[23:01:01] <dav1d> DarkUranium: obviously operator overloading is "nicer", but I wouldnt consider it a show stopper[23:01:30] <DarkUranium> dav1d, keep in mind, no function overloading either in JS. Meaning, you can't even do Vec4(1) like in GLSL.[23:01:41] <DarkUranium> (I mean, you can, but it'll be hell of an ugly implementation to handle the cases)[23:01:58] <dav1d> DarkUranium: I know, I have done webgl before :p[23:02:05] <DarkUranium> so have I.[23:02:14] <dav1d> it's awful, but you just learn to live with it[23:02:24] <chrisf> only winning move is not to play[23:02:39] <dav1d> GL in a Browser is pretty cool though[23:02:42] <jdashg> Computers were a mistake :)[23:03:43] <DarkUranium> dav1d, it sure as hell beats canvas.[23:03:44] <jdashg> it's super cool for crazy demoscene shadertoy stuff, though getting through all the bugs they found was a pain[23:03:56] <DarkUranium> I find it rather funny (and sad at the same time) how you have these libraries, written in JS, that have a canvas API[23:04:02] <DarkUranium> ... but outperform canvas by an order of magnitude[23:04:11] <DarkUranium> (by using WebGL as a backend)[23:04:16] <DarkUranium> I mean, why can't the browser do that?[23:04:27] <chrisf> DarkUranium: what library?[23:04:38] <DarkUranium> chrisf, I remember a few, lemme find one[23:04:54] <jdashg> uhh, multiple reasons. The canvas API is massive, and more or less hooked up to skia (or similar) on the back end[23:05:11] <jdashg> If you pare down the API, you can make it much much faster than canvas2d[23:05:12] <chrisf> (and i suspect the answer is "by sacrificing correctness and/or generality")[23:06:36] <dav1d> isnt there font rendering etc. on the canvas?[23:06:54] <DarkUranium> dav1d, yeah, the libs do that too. But can't for the life of me remember the name of the biggest one I found =|[23:07:00] <dav1d> probably really hard to get right and change without breaking existing stuff[23:07:10] <DarkUranium> chrisf, I think a part of it might be the rendering approach, though. E.g. you need all of these pattern-related shenanigans just to render a textured quad (i.e. sprite)[23:07:40] <DarkUranium> PixiJS, I think it was? 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