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[01:51:45] <magic_mage> do linux containers perform as well as solaris zones?
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[02:03:06] <Triskelios> magic_mage: they *are* zones
[02:04:28] <Triskelios> like other "branded" zones, they mostly expose different syscall behaviour so there is little or no overhead
[02:05:18] <Triskelios> they've also been removed in later OpenSolaris and illumos
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[06:16:32] <magic_mage> removed?
[06:16:42] <magic_mage> did nexenta remove them?
[06:16:44] <magic_mage> why removed?
[06:28:00] <Triskelios> Oracle removed them a year ago, they were incomplete and buggy
[06:28:46] <Triskelios> currently nobody is willing to support them if they're brought back
[06:30:15] <jamesd_> it was one of those things that takes a lot of work to keep current when you have a moving target... linux changes its API/ABI more often then some of its developers change there underwear, kind of like the wine project, where MS would move on to the next version before WINE would finish work on the previous one
[06:32:38] <magic_mage> lol
[06:32:44] <magic_mage> those kaakz
[06:33:19] <magic_mage> wow
[06:33:24] <magic_mage> work is rolling otu zones now
[06:33:26] <magic_mage> sol10
[06:33:35] <magic_mage> love em to deth
[06:33:38] <magic_mage> they do
[06:33:47] <magic_mage> I say let webserver multiplexz
[06:33:54] <magic_mage> name based virtual hostrs eh
[06:34:10] <Triskelios> yes, zones are obviously very powerful
[06:34:32] <Triskelios> illumos has a student who is planning to implement Linux binary support differently
[06:34:53] <magic_mage> i find virtualization annoying
[06:35:03] <magic_mage> I say let app run on same box
[06:35:10] <magic_mage> dotn copy os again and again
[06:35:15] <magic_mage> i find zones hard to debug
[06:35:16] <kdavy> Triskelios: i was wondering... what is a "student" in illumos context?
[06:35:20] <magic_mage> and freze a lot
[06:35:39] <Triskelios> kdavy: I started a mentorship program
[06:35:55] <Triskelios> http://www.illumos.org/projects/site/wiki/Students
[06:37:04] <kdavy> Triskelios: ah, cool.
[06:38:22] <jamesd_> are they part of googles summer of code?
[06:38:28] <kdavy> that's an awesome way to get some people interested in the community
[06:38:40] <jamesd_> nm... i read the link
[06:40:44] <Triskelios> jamesd_: we only got two slots from Google this year (amaximum for a new org)
[06:42:24] <Triskelios> kdavy: yeah, just hope we can meet everyone's expectations... had our first meeting this week and it went pretty well
[06:42:55] <kdavy> Triskelios: i still think this isn't fair... i bought close to 20k worth of nexenta licenses and i didn't even get a t-shirt :(
[06:43:39] <Triskelios> neither did most of us... I was one of the lucky ones since I went to SCALE
[06:43:55] <kdavy> lol
[06:44:30] <jamesd_> kdavy, how much storage license does 20k buy?
[06:45:19] <kdavy> jamesd_: the price lists are available online. most of the $ went to plugins anyway
[06:46:28] <kdavy> but, 12Tb + 16Tb + fancy plugins
[06:51:57] <jamesd_> including vmdc i guess
[06:52:15] <kdavy> jamesd_: nope, you guessed wrong
[06:52:47] <jamesd_> guess it was wishful thinking.. i would like to play with that module
[06:53:10] <kdavy> FC Target and HA Cluster
[06:56:31] <magic_mage> so would u reccomend nexenta for prod load testing environment for java apps?
[06:56:50] <kdavy> magic_mage: me?
[06:57:41] <kdavy> i have no clue what you mean by java apps, but nexenta beats the hell out of my previous SAN for a fraction of the price (hw + sw combined)
[06:57:47] <jamesd_> i would the only problem i have had so far is that the gui likes to crash if left logged in too long... and ZFS technology is totally solid if you design your hardware/solution correctly
[06:58:10] <kdavy> needless to say, you have to design the hw for your own environment
[06:58:48] <kdavy> jamesd_: after i eliminated all causes of the gui crashing, it's been rock solid
[06:59:38] <kdavy> last (and least obvious) cause of NMV deaths was the autosmart plugin. uninstall it for now.
[07:00:17] <magic_mage> sAN? what with zfs?
[07:00:39] <magic_mage> nice
[07:00:42] <magic_mage> did u do zfs raid 10
[07:00:43] <magic_mage> ?
[07:01:06] <kdavy> magic_mage: no, 15 slices of raidz2, with tons of ssd cache
[07:01:59] <jamesd_> the wierdest thing i have found with the community version, i have a copy NTOP installed from a community repository, so i start it manually on port 3000, and when the gui crashes going to port 2000 takes me to the ntop page
[07:02:05] <magic_mage> oh ssd is cheating
[07:02:36] <magic_mage> but not as expensive as SAN admitedly
[07:02:38] <magic_mage> hmmmmmm
[07:02:40] <jamesd_> no ssd is spending a little bit of the 1000's you saved from a traditional san
[07:02:45] <magic_mage> ya
[07:02:47] <magic_mage> I concur
[07:02:53] <magic_mage> it really speeds shit up?
[07:03:02] <magic_mage> set it to be home of arc cache or something?
[07:03:15] <jamesd_> magic_mage, if you buy good ssd's they do
[07:03:44] <magic_mage> wat good one?
[07:03:46] <jamesd_> fast write ssd's for slog (mirrored), and fast read ssd's for l2arc
[07:04:35] <kdavy> magic_mage: i beg to differ
[07:04:56] <kdavy> magic_mage: what car do you drive, how fast does it go and how big is the engine?
[07:05:10] <jamesd_> or perhaps on of those dram pci-e cards...  i would love to have one.. but they still cost an arm and a leg... i haven't sold my employer on nexenta yet
[07:06:34] * kdavy drives an Audi TT, it goes 160+mph with a 1.8 liter engine, and a Turbo isn't cheating :)
[07:07:31] <kdavy> same with ssd
[07:07:39] <jamesd_> whats faster a porsche or a mac truck...   the mac truck the contest was to see who could haul 50tons of frieght... the ssd's are like the fork lifts used to load the frieght.
[07:08:48] <kdavy> jamesd_: how long is it gonna take to load and unload the freight into the truck?
[07:09:35] <jamesd_> depends how many ssds/forklifts you have and how good your planners and drivers are.
[07:11:01] <jamesd_> of course if the desinations are 500 miles apart it really doesn't matter, the porsche couldn't carry more than 500lbs at a time max.
[07:11:53] <kdavy> jamesd_: but if you need to carry less than 500lbs you can't beat a porsche
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[07:12:50] <jamesd_> true
[07:13:15] <kdavy> my audi is parked outside my house right now with $55k worth of gear in the trunk, and it'll be at the destination 4.5 hours after i wake up tomorrow
[07:13:34] <kdavy> the 12Tb nexenta unit is in the trunk too :)
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[07:14:04] <jamesd_> never underestimate the bandwidth of a stationwagon full of sata drives...   its just the latency that sucks
[07:14:29] <kdavy> jamesd_: so true
[07:15:33] <jamesd_> only 12TB in the trunk.. i just calculated the total storage in my house... and came up with 6.5TB...
[07:16:36] <kdavy> jamesd_: ok it's only a 2U unit...
[07:16:50] <jamesd_> which is pretty awesome considering the first harddrive i owned personally was a 20MB disk
[07:17:00] <kdavy> 21 600gb 10k drives, an SSD and two boot disks
[07:17:30] <kdavy> plus a couple blade servers and a fibre switch
[07:18:28] <kdavy> and zero fibre cables, thanks to a certain someone i'd rather not mention
[07:18:43] <kdavy> gonna have to get some on the way
[07:19:36] <jamesd_> forget the fibre cables.. just get a couple kids with mirrors and flash light ;-)
[07:21:00] <kdavy> jamesd_: even if i hired kids from Foxconn, fibre cables would end up being cheaper in the long term
[07:21:55] <jamesd_> i know..  making a joke... you thought you saw the light at the end of the tunnel and it turned out to be a kid with a flashlight
[07:22:58] <kdavy> jamesd_: you misunderestimate my sense of humor
[07:23:44] <jamesd_> perhaps i'm too tired or just not drunk enough
[07:25:21] <kdavy> jamesd_: my wife is a nurse, she can hook you up to an everclear IV so that your tiredness and drunkenness finally come to balance :)
[07:26:14] <jamesd_> and i will be alsleep in 5 minutes flat.
[07:27:02] <kdavy> depends on the drip rate, it's quite adjustable
[07:27:30] <kdavy> you can even choose between half duplex and full duplex, i believe
[07:27:36] <jamesd_> perhaps... but these days i get a buzz off of 80 proof whiskey....
[07:31:42] <kdavy> hm i havent even had anything above 20 proof in a while
[07:32:05] <kdavy> my wife buys this wine but i dont like it... i prefer guinness draught
[07:33:06] <jamesd_>   * draught is better  * wine
[07:42:49] <jamesd_> okay off to bed.. see you another time
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[15:43:52] <Joe_____> I’m about to install Nexenta Core 3.01 as a guest vm on XCP host and it will serve as a ZFS storage host. What would be a safe but conservative image size I should create? I plan on only installing napp-it ZFS gui manager and want to minimize the image size of the vm. TIA.
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[16:15:33] <jamesd_> how does NCP limit you to just 2 TB of storage is it only a web app thing that blocks it?
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[16:20:03] <Joe_____> James, The core platform does not have limits but the Community Edition of the Stor  product  limits to 18TB
[16:22:17] <jamesd_> and how is that limited
[16:22:33] <jamesd_> the web thing.. i know that ZFS has no limits that i will ever reach
[16:25:53] <Joe_____> NexentaStor Community Edition GUI limits usage to 18 TB
[16:27:31] <jamesd_> i understand that i am only talking about the community version not going to try close to 2k for a commercial license on my home boxes
[16:27:56] <jamesd_> just verifing that they didn't put some zfs limiting code in the kernel
[16:29:55] <Joe_____> if you need to use more than 18TB just use NCP (minus the gui)   I'm installing the Napp-IT GUI on NCP and this setup has no limits and is free but it is not as sophisticated as NexentaStor
[16:31:52] <jamesd_> Joe_____, any other reason for using napp-it, i'm usually a solaris admin, and besides the cool graphic dashboard, like the gages and analytics i find very little reason for the gui... i created the pool with the gui and it was more painful than just doing it from CLI
[16:34:02] <Joe_____> if you dont mind command line just go with the bare NCP, I go with the GUI just to lower the barrier to entry for ZFS administration.
[16:34:47] <jamesd_> zfs has a barrier?  two commands? the only ugly parts are  iscsi and ACL's
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[16:37:06] <Joe_____> No there is much more.  What if a drive fails? will the CLI notify you of the failure or tell you which physical drive in your housing is the bad one etc. there is more to it than you can shake a stick at
[16:38:37] <jamesd_> i guess the drive location is a bit harder, but you have to configure that per server type... failure is a simple cronjob
[16:41:08] <Joe_____> There are lots of details a gui frees me from having to setup or worry about. I just pull up a browser and check it from time to time or i get notified.
[16:42:05] <Joe_____> btw, i'm a windows buy if you cant tell
[16:42:17] <Joe_____> btw, i'm a windows "guy" if you cant tell
[16:43:41] <jamesd_> i deal with more windows than i care to admit... currently backing up my son's laptop and reinstalling windows 7 after he screwed up ownership and permissions when he moved from vista to 7... fun fun fun.
[16:45:52] <jamesd_> "it's my laptop everything should be owned my user"... then things started breaking but his 20GB of itunes music played so he spent $40 upgrading to the non DRM versions... now office is broke and plenty more stuff.
[16:47:34] <Joe_____> there are issues with everything, currently i'm fighting with XenCenter trying to create a NCP guest on XCP(Xen Cloud Platform) host.  and getting memory constraint violations. I dont know what i dont know but a gui helps a lot
[16:48:49] <jamesd_> i liked xen but when i used it, it was all command line stuff, and everywhere i work they are only into vmware, so i'm using esxi for virtualization at home, besides my laptops that do virtualbox
[16:49:25] <jamesd_> i do plan on doing a one box esx+zfs solution for home the hp ml350g6 looks pretty sweet for the job.
[16:52:17] <Joe_____> I perfer operating in GUI land and only go commando(CLI)  when i have no other choice.
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[16:59:41] <Joe_____> Anyone seen this benchmark from last year http://www.zfsbuild.com/2010/10/09/nexenta-core-platform-benchmarks/  Is the fact that NexentaStor under performs NCP purly a result of the GUI overhead?
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[17:21:02] <jamesd_> Joe_____, i would have to assume it was some bug fix that went into NCP that hadn't made it into the rest...
[17:21:46] <jamesd_> the only thing that could else that could cause it is dtrace probes enabled differently
[17:22:12] <jamesd_> ZFS is done in the kernel, kernel is always serviced first.. userland be dammed
[17:22:13] <Joe_____> NexentaStor(GUI and ALL) is built on top of NCP
[17:22:57] <jamesd_> yes but it could of been different kernel versions between the products
[17:24:54] <jamesd_> by design  ZFS has very few tunables so the gui on top should have zero impact other than dtrace probes used for analytics
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[17:30:14] <Joe_____> I went with NCP as my ZFS host because of this benchmark. And hoped napp-it is lighter footprint than the NexentaStor GUI and will not drag down performance as much
[17:31:28] <jamesd_> as with most web apps, it doesn't use resources unless you are actually accessing them
[17:36:11] <Joe_____> Napp-IT is just a GUI/SCRIPT, i cant say the same for NexentaStor as i dont  know how it works between the OS and GUI
[17:37:53] <jamesd_> from what i can see its the same... it just displays the data when asked for... the monitoring are just a few more userland services that query the system, the HA and cluster stuff may be kernel modules but i doubt it
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[19:53:13] <matsim_work> Hey - I finally found the time to install my FC adapters and replaced broken mpt SCSI - where I realized the same OS/Net updates that reached NexentaStor last 2 weeks are also in apt.nexenta.org!
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[19:54:00] <matsim_work> @Nexentians: Whoever that guy / girl was you get a BIG THANKS for the updates! :-)
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[19:55:15] <matsim_work> If I'm right the repo got updates 6 AM UTC+2 :-) http://apt.nexenta.org/dists/hardy-unstable/
[20:14:30] <matsim_work> Have to leave now ...
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   May 7, 2011  
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