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[00:00:12] <kappaOne> well i'd guess they are trying to use it to push javafx
[00:00:22] <kappaOne> abit like the android store
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[00:01:24] <kappaOne> they also have staroffice
[00:01:52] <NoobFukaire> who hoo, clipart ;)
[00:02:05] <monty_hall> What's wrong w/ clip art.
[00:02:07] <NoobFukaire> jonny says "runtime" one too many times I think
[00:02:25] <NoobFukaire> monty_hall: that's really the only difference I know of between oo.org and staroffice
[00:02:38] <monty_hall> sorry, I butted in the middle of the conversation.
[00:02:47] <monty_hall> I was being fascetious :)
[00:02:48] <NoobFukaire> basically sun is paid to bundle crapware with Java
[00:02:55] <NoobFukaire> so now they're creating a store
[00:03:07] <monty_hall> I didn't get your context...
[00:03:13] <NoobFukaire> ah windows, I don't miss you at all
[00:03:54] <NoobFukaire> oh, so this store is for any apps then?
[00:03:57] <NoobFukaire> not just java apps
[00:04:59] <monty_hall> There seems to be alot of bias against client java.
[00:05:14] <NoobFukaire> well swing is fucking horrible, even though it's technically cool
[00:05:23] <NoobFukaire> applets have been garbage for a decade
[00:05:39] <NoobFukaire> client java has sucked for a long, long time, easily enough to cause a negative fias
[00:05:41] <NoobFukaire> *bias
[00:06:14] <NoobFukaire> but vector could be a cool way for windows to get an apt style software installation system
[00:06:24] <NoobFukaire> or I guess a general purpose client like steam
[00:06:31] <NoobFukaire> I got punchout, hells yeah
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[00:44:04] * _Riven joins the party
[00:45:12] <Notch_> new version of minecraft. :D
[00:45:24] <kappaOne> uploaded?
[00:45:33] * _Riven goes to type lengthy URL
[00:45:45] * kappaOne clicks bookmark
[00:46:09] <Notch_> yeah. Water, lava, level resetting, optional view distance limiter
[00:46:31] <_Riven> Notch, are you already rendering front-to-back, to reduce fillrate impact?
[00:46:32] <kappaOne> save feature?
[00:46:40] <Notch_> in a few days, honest
[00:46:48] <Notch_> _Riven: No.. *facepalm*
[00:46:53] <Notch_> thanks
[00:46:59] <_Riven> will be *huge*
[00:47:03] * _Riven hopes
[00:47:48] * kappaOne starts in water
[00:48:23] * _Riven restarts browser... stupid me
[00:49:22] <kappaOne> whats the tree/flower thing?
[00:49:31] <kappaOne> does it grow?
[00:49:59] <Notch_> it doesn't. It's a test of weirdly shaped blocks with alpha testing
[00:50:09] <Notch_> it's very ugly, so i "hid" it one letter over. ;)
[00:50:14] <Notch_> it dies in shadow!
[00:50:41] * _Riven shakes fist
[00:50:46] <_Riven> cannot get out of water
[00:51:00] <kappaOne> ah theres a solid floor now too
[00:51:14] <kappaOne> can't digg out of the world
[00:51:26] <NoobFukaire> punchout is pretty cool
[00:53:45] <kappaOne> very cool stuff Notch_ progressing very well
[00:55:50] * kappaOne throws mob ppl into lava hoping they'd burn
[00:57:00] <kappaOne> anyway nn ppl
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[01:00:01] <_Riven> cool, first time that i see the grass grow
[01:00:54] <_Riven> maybe that's what is causing to make chunk updates? I mean... when i'm just doing nothing at all, the chunk updates spike every few seconds..?
[01:01:04] <_Riven> up to 24
[01:01:36] <Notch_> it's probably grass in a water free pond
[01:01:56] <_Riven> i have this feeling that sometimes the same chuinks end up in the 'queue' >
[01:02:02] <_Riven> chunks*
[01:02:15] <_Riven> but that's totally a gut feeling
[01:02:35] <Notch_> I'd say it's very possible indeed.
[01:02:43] <Notch_> 14.3% is spend sorting chunks, haha
[01:02:46] <Notch_> *spent
[01:02:58] <_Riven> every time i add 1 block, chunk updates goes to 6, very reliably
[01:03:00] <Notch_> 40.6% calling callList
[01:03:20] <_Riven> i mean, very predictably
[01:03:27] <Notch_> if you're at the edge of a chunk, that should happen
[01:03:34] <Notch_> but if you're not, it most certainly should not
[01:03:35] <NoobFukaire> http://seventh-sun.com/pub/gltalk.pdf
[01:03:36] <_Riven> yeah... will try a bit further
[01:03:44] <NoobFukaire> I'm going to be giving a talk on opengl in java
[01:03:53] <NoobFukaire> Do you guys see anything clearly missing in that pdf? It's my outline
[01:03:56] <Notch_> no, wait, each chunk has three render passes
[01:04:00] <Notch_> so 6 = 2
[01:04:22] <_Riven> it's everywhere... sometimes it's even more, like 15
[01:04:30] <_Riven> hm
[01:05:50] <_Riven> matrices => instead of Skew, it'd say Scale
[01:06:07] <Notch_> what
[01:06:08] <Notch_> ?
[01:06:08] <_Riven> handly anybody skews, NoobFukaire
[01:06:18] <_Riven> (regarding his pdf)
[01:06:22] <Notch_> oohh, haha
[01:06:36] <_Riven> sorry :)
[01:07:04] <NoobFukaire> true, any java related elements I've omitted?
[01:08:22] <_Riven> shaders => "other available as well" --> "geometry shaders recently added"
[01:08:58] <Notch_> if I disable all graphics, I only get 350 fps. I think I can probably optimise something here. =D
[01:09:12] <_Riven> i got 400fps WITH gfx! ha!
[01:10:17] <_Riven> NoobFukaire: "shaders => neither support operator overloading", shaders actually do have a LOT of operator overloading *builtin*... matrix * vector
[01:10:22] <Notch_> heh, it's the chunk sorting. =D
[01:10:39] <Notch_> I can do this manually very easy since it's a fixed grid
[01:10:54] <_Riven> hm... only sort when you step into a new chunk !
[01:11:12] <_Riven> but now ii'm stating the obvious :-/
[01:11:24] <Notch_> no, you're not. I'm tired and retarded, lol
[01:11:32] <OrangyTang> NoobFukaire: 'tis not entirely true to say "bindings allow 100% access to opengl" since Jogl hasn't added GL3.0 support
[01:11:48] <_Riven> =D
[01:12:17] * _Riven is glad gouessej isn't here
[01:13:16] <NoobFukaire> that sucks, so Sun has already abandoned jogl?
[01:13:27] <NoobFukaire> or are they just slowly moving
[01:13:28] <_Riven> no.... not at all, not officially
[01:13:40] <OrangyTang> NoobFukaire: also, what's the target audience? if beginners, seems odd to go straight from Immediate Mode to Shaders without any intermediate stuff. If advanced programmers, then why even bother mentioning immediate mode?
[01:13:57] <OrangyTang> jogl hasn't had a nightly build since a year ago
[01:13:57] <_Riven> just like Java3D.... 3 years after everybody noticed Java3D was dead, Sun said, we give the damn thing to the community!
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[01:14:36] <NoobFukaire> well it's for Java developers who are mainly enterprisey types, so they don't really know much about graphics programming
[01:14:54] <_Riven> at least make the shader sourcecode multi-line
[01:15:02] <OrangyTang> i'd shove something on textures between immediate mode and shaders then
[01:15:04] <_Riven> currently it's obfustaced
[01:15:04] <NoobFukaire> What do you mean by intermediate stuff? I didn't go into VBOs, etc. because I don't have enough time in the presentation
[01:15:20] <OrangyTang> texture and blending
[01:15:28] <NoobFukaire> yeah sorry the pdf printer on our wiki screwed up anything that is in code tags
[01:16:24] <_Riven> just have a 1 page with tiny code examples, like: how to render a quad
[01:16:26] <NoobFukaire> It's a good point, but I think textures will require a little too much time
[01:16:34] <_Riven> if this is an introduction, you got to have to give them something
[01:16:56] <NoobFukaire> yeah, there's a code part that is on the wiki
[01:16:59] <NoobFukaire> err
[01:17:03] <NoobFukaire> that isn't on that wiki page
[01:17:10] <OrangyTang> well without textures the shader bit is going to be hard to grasp, since textures are one of your main shader inputs IMHO
[01:17:12] <_Riven> right :)
[01:17:30] <NoobFukaire> I'm going to render a quad, texture it (although not explain that) and then do some simple lighting in the shader
[01:17:32] <OrangyTang> just has to be a basic bit about textures being 2d arrays of colours
[01:17:51] <NoobFukaire> I think they'll understand that though, because they had to have dealt with image before
[01:17:56] <OrangyTang> ah k
[01:18:05] <NoobFukaire> these are experience programmers, just not this type of stuff
[01:18:14] <NoobFukaire> databases, app servers, j2ee, etc.
[01:18:30] <NoobFukaire> thanks for the feedback everyone :)
[01:18:48] <_Riven> the only line of code that makes clear that you use texture, should be GL.glbindTexture
[01:19:21] <NoobFukaire> I had to relearn jogl for this, I haven't used it in forever
[01:19:30] <NoobFukaire> the only reason I didn't use lwjgl is because of the games factor
[01:19:36] <_Riven> i haven't used it in 3 years
[01:19:52] <NoobFukaire> when you say "games" some people just roll their eyes
[01:19:55] <_Riven> what!
[01:19:56] <Notch_> 0.0.12a_02 is up with some performance fixes.
[01:20:00] <NoobFukaire> I don't think they know how much technical expertise is involved
[01:20:20] * _Riven hits F5
[01:21:00] <_Riven> 1200fps ?
[01:21:20] <Notch_> nice
[01:21:32] <NoobFukaire> wow, that's not cool
[01:22:03] <NoobFukaire> the jogl fork thing that is ;)
[01:22:05] <_Riven> i bet that was due to front-to-back? :)
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[01:22:26] <Notch_> that, and me changing chunks back to 16x16, and getting rid of a whole lot of sorting
[01:22:33] <_Riven> when i see the whole level, i get 800fps or so
[01:22:35] <Notch_> and a lot of frustum culling done three times
[01:22:44] <_Riven> :)
[01:22:49] <_Riven> better be sure eh?
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[01:25:01] <NoobFukaire> well we can always just fork java
[01:25:05] <NoobFukaire> game vm baby ;)
[01:25:10] <_Riven> yeah... and maintain it
[01:26:33] <NoobFukaire> I wish my group had more resources
[01:26:35] <_Riven> i hope they signed it with MD5
[01:26:42] <OrangyTang> _Riven: lol
[01:26:45] <NoobFukaire> it'd be cool to fork java into a "game console" environment
[01:27:13] <NoobFukaire> like XNA I suppose
[01:27:21] <NoobFukaire> but less retardation from the sun camp
[01:27:29] <_Riven> there is no sane reason to fork java, you'll lack all the updates
[01:27:31] <NoobFukaire> i.e. no corba and other stupid stuff in the distro
[01:27:45] <NoobFukaire> well this would be a much smaller environment though
[01:28:02] <NoobFukaire> no swing or awt, non of the other stuff unrelated to games
[01:28:08] <_Riven> improvements to the JIT are still making Java 10-15% faster every major release
[01:28:35] <NoobFukaire> hotspot would stay in sync, modified for games purposes of course
[01:28:42] <NoobFukaire> i.e. SIMD support on platforms that support it
[01:28:51] <NoobFukaire> so you install game vm on your OS
[01:28:58] <NoobFukaire> and any game written for it can play on that platform
[01:29:02] <NoobFukaire> mac, pc, linux, etc
[01:29:03] <_Riven> you cannot simply modify HotSpot and squeeze in SIMD
[01:29:21] <NoobFukaire> yeah it's just another instruction to look for and emit during JIT
[01:29:30] <_Riven> SIMD requires 16 byte aligned values
[01:29:35] <NoobFukaire> although java opcodes are scared because they're 8-bit
[01:29:52] <_Riven> sorry, that absolutely makes no sense :)
[01:30:11] <NoobFukaire> scarce, sorry
[01:30:52] <_Riven> even if thei had 16bit opcodes, it would take a team of top devs, a few years
[01:31:13] <_Riven> you'd be much better off with a 'binding'
[01:31:21] <NoobFukaire> no, binding is the worst way to go
[01:31:32] <NoobFukaire> I've done it, it's sloowww unless you can somehow do everything in a few calls
[01:31:39] <_Riven> a DLL, some JNI, and methods like add4() and addmul4()
[01:31:45] <NoobFukaire> yeah, doesn't work
[01:31:47] <NoobFukaire> I'd already done that
[01:31:51] <NoobFukaire> it's slow as balls
[01:32:01] <_Riven> well, i already did it too
[01:32:08] <_Riven> and my version was 4 times as fast as the JVM
[01:32:10] <NoobFukaire> JNI overhead is a killer
[01:32:10] <_Riven> so...
[01:32:14] <NoobFukaire> yeah, doubt it
[01:32:15] <_Riven> there you go
[01:32:20] <_Riven> hehe
[01:32:30] <NoobFukaire> You might want to rethink your timing methods there ;)
[01:32:41] <_Riven> you might want to rethink
[01:32:43] <NoobFukaire> unless you batched everything heavily, I'd believe that
[01:33:06] <NoobFukaire> but it's not a good general purpose solution, the best way is to have hotspot generate native vector operations from the java ones
[01:33:25] <_Riven> even C compilers generate inefficient SSE code
[01:33:33] <NoobFukaire> no, intrinsics are pretty good
[01:33:39] <NoobFukaire> it's not complicated at all
[01:33:40] <_Riven> and they have devs worked for many many years on that issie
[01:33:54] <NoobFukaire> hotspot is a beast though
[01:33:58] <_Riven> i'm not going to have this conversation with you
[01:34:21] <NoobFukaire> fine, doesn't bother me at all
[01:35:37] <_Riven> not that we can't talk about other things, but in the above topic we will not agree
[01:35:56] <NoobFukaire> punchout is pretty good :)
[01:36:07] <NoobFukaire> the balance board makes it really difficult though
[01:36:26] <_Riven> i think i miss something important... what is punchout?
[01:36:36] <NoobFukaire> it's a game for the Wii
[01:36:47] <NoobFukaire> http://www.punchout.com/
[01:37:58] <_Riven> i want to respond to one of your arguments about SIMD => ofcourse i'm batching everything, if I'd call mul4(...) on 1 value, it'd be dog slow
[01:38:37] <_Riven> I'm spending a lot of cycles in JNI, to the overhead becomes unimportant, just like with OpenGL calls
[01:38:48] <_Riven> i mean, a lot of cycles in native code
[01:39:02] <NoobFukaire> yeah but having to do that makes general purpose math more difficult
[01:39:08] <_Riven> maybe that was why you questioned my timings
[01:39:28] <NoobFukaire> with opengl, it's okay because you're working in that kind of environment anyway
[01:39:30] <NoobFukaire> with the GPU et al
[01:40:15] <Notch_> good night. Thanks for the assistance, _Riven. =)
[01:40:29] <_Riven> indeed, but you have to work within Java, and within Java there simply isn't much space to work with SIMD, as it doesn't fit the language. So you have to take it out, put it in a lib, batch up your data, execute it
[01:40:33] <NoobFukaire> but if the jvm generate native SIMD instructions from your operations, you can use them anywhere and get a serious performance boost in a lot of situations
[01:40:34] <_Riven> okay, sleep tight!
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[01:40:45] <_Riven> rive.ego++
[01:40:49] <_Riven> oh well
[01:41:07] <NoobFukaire> the only thing that sucks is that java doesn't have an official vector math package
[01:41:25] <NoobFukaire> so you have to integrated something into the jvm stack that isn't "blessed" by sun
[01:42:48] <_Riven> it is very hard to implement that, only think of all the Java language rules that have to change, the java spec would change, we need new bytecodes, the JIT has to take SIMD into account with every optimisation, which basically means, that the JIT will not optimize such cases as effeciently as it does today, for the next few years
[01:43:16] <_Riven> it is a BIG thing
[01:43:25] <NoobFukaire> the JIT doesn't optimize vector operations at all right now
[01:43:27] <_Riven> writing a DLL is a SMALL thing
[01:43:29] <NoobFukaire> in hotspot
[01:43:54] <_Riven> well, the JIT uses SSE2... for single values ;)
[01:44:06] <NoobFukaire> so you use more CPU time, when all new x86 cpus have dedicated vector hardware
[01:44:24] <NoobFukaire> it's a bit like using the GPU but doing fragment shading on the CPU instead
[01:45:39] <_Riven> see it like this: with a DLL, we'll have SIMD very fast, within a few days. with JVM support, we might have it sooner or later. I mean... look at the performance of native FloatBuffers... in theory they are as fast as float[], but the JIT team as struggled long and hard, and simply failed to get the performance on par
[01:46:26] <_Riven> seemingly trivial additions, are just... hard
[01:46:57] <NoobFukaire> for sure, I've already ran into brick walls adding SIMD support to hotspot
[01:47:14] <NoobFukaire> it's a very complex program, you need a lot experience with it to be proficient
[01:47:29] <_Riven> I;ve built a couple of DLLs, no brick walls there :) smooth as butter, just didn't manage to compile for linux / macosx
[01:48:45] <_Riven> anyway, it is 01:51 here
[01:48:52] <_Riven> i seriously need to get some sleep
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[10:30:51] <d00han> Can't believe there aren't more news stories about the java store.
[10:31:24] <Mazon> becuase its a dud ?
[10:32:25] <d00han> Does it have to be?
[10:32:49] <Mazon> it will have about the same success as a c++ store - or a c store ...
[10:32:53] <pstickne> Java store?
[10:33:03] <pstickne> Pet Store?
[10:33:37] <pstickne> In that case ... "The Java BluePrints Program program helps developers create robust, scalable, and portable applications by providing guidelines, patterns, and code that illustrate best practices on how to build end-to-end applications using Java technology." ... says it all :p
[10:33:48] <kappaTwo> almost everyone is opening stores/maket places now though
[10:33:58] <d00han> Yeah.
[10:34:13] <d00han> Really what you need is it to be even easier to get stuff on steam
[10:34:45] <Scient|wrk> pstickne: its missing a "synergies" mention, otherwise it would be a 100% perfect buzzword bullshit :P
[10:38:23] <kappaTwo> the standard on steam is too high for most indie games
[10:38:49] <d00han> Yeah but if they had an indie section or something
[10:38:49] <Scient|wrk> are there many indie games on steam at all?
[10:39:00] <d00han> But I guess it would just become crowded really fast.
[10:39:36] <d00han> How hard would it really be to make a store?
[10:39:41] <Scient|wrk> ive checked some of the community stuff on XBL marketplace
[10:39:48] <Scient|wrk> pitiful stuff mostly
[10:40:27] <Scient|wrk> tho there are several true gems on the arcade side, but those are not so much indie stuff, more like just small independent studios or something
[10:40:31] <Scient|wrk> Braid, Castle Crashers
[10:41:23] <d00han> Scient|wrk, I haven't seen much good stuff made with xna yet.
[10:41:35] <d00han> Like a few gems like you say
[10:41:36] <Scient|wrk> i have, visually at least
[10:41:45] <Scient|wrk> ive dug into some of the source also, and well
[10:42:02] <Scient|wrk> some stuff which impresses me visually etc, is actually so so primitive codewise :P
[10:42:11] <Scient|wrk> and is not polished usually
[10:42:24] <Scient|wrk> so far most of the community stuff ive seen is either very simple or just weak
[10:42:32] <pstickne> sauce
[10:43:15] <Scient|wrk> but both braid and castle crashers are made by small teams (braid is made by one person i think) and both of them are really popular
[10:43:50] <d00han> Yeah
[10:44:02] <Scient|wrk> XNA seems pretty neat and it does offer you the tools to basically make a game like any other out there for xbox, just that its hyped to be "easily accessible" for beginners
[10:44:06] <Scient|wrk> which it actually is not :P
[10:44:14] <d00han> I think they expected xna to be on par with flash or seomthing
[10:44:22] <Scient|wrk> so there are loads of games out there which look like crap
[10:44:48] <Scient|wrk> its a misconception that XNA makes game dev somehow really easy like flash :P
[10:45:04] <Scient|wrk> it just provides some of the stuff for you to make life a bit easier
[10:45:17] <Scient|wrk> id compare it to Slick a bit, it does offer the same kind of stuff
[10:45:57] <d00han> I think slick is better though
[10:46:23] <d00han> But yeah same sort of thing.
[10:46:32] <d00han> It is cool being able to write stuff for the xbox though.
[10:47:20] <Scient|wrk> indeed
[10:47:29] <Scient|wrk> i just downloaded the connectivity stuff also for my xbox
[10:47:32] <Scient|wrk> havent tried it out yet
[10:47:51] <Scient|wrk> once i get my work imac to the office and get back to my windows desktop, ill definetly try it out
[10:48:47] <Scient|wrk> a big plus with XNA is the amount of resources also
[10:48:53] <Scient|wrk> vs for example Java, especially 3D
[10:49:24] <Scient|wrk> thats one argument why im thinking of sticking with a couple of nice books and XNA to get the hang of 3D properly :)
[10:49:53] <Scient|wrk> at the same time Java dev has a really nice support for web distribution in applets and WS, which XNA sadly doesnt have at all
[10:50:05] <Scient|wrk> same thing the other way around with XNA and XBL marketplace tho
[10:50:33] <Scient|wrk> would be nice to have something which is easily distributable on the web, on XBL marketplace and perhaps iphone appstore all in one :)
[10:50:52] <d00han> mmm
[10:51:09] <Scient|wrk> tho i think Silverlight will have some XNA stuff in the future
[10:51:16] <Scient|wrk> not 100% sure
[10:51:30] <d00han> Well they said it would back in 2007
[10:51:38] <d00han> When it was wpf/e
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[10:52:18] <Scient|wrk> but well i think that in the end the language doesnt matter, it shouldnt be that hard to port your code over from one language to another
[10:53:17] <d00han> Not really
[10:53:39] <d00han> There was an intertesting video I watched about some guys that wrote a version of maniac miner that would work with silverlight and xna
[10:53:58] <d00han> So xna and silverlight just provided the render, all the engine was regular .net
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[10:54:47] <Scient|wrk> XNA in itself seems sweet
[10:54:55] <Scient|wrk> would like to see something like that for Java also
[10:55:35] <doohan> I think slick does a pretty good job of the removal of all the boilerplate stuff
[10:55:40] <doohan> You can get going pretty quick.
[10:56:07] <Scient|wrk> and its actually pretty deep, doesnt restrict you to simple stuff only
[10:56:17] <doohan> yeah
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[10:56:30] <Scient|wrk> i was just overwhelmed by the 3d stuff itself :P
[10:56:45] <kevglass> morning
[10:56:53] <Scient|wrk> by having programming experience i kind of expected that i could just jump right in
[10:56:58] <Scient|wrk> and start developing the fancy stuff
[10:57:09] <Scient|wrk> boy was i wrong :D
[10:57:41] <doohan> haha yeah
[10:58:07] <doohan> THe only proper 3d stuff I've done was jogl stuff at uni
[11:00:50] <doohan> I found that to be a bit laborious though
[11:01:12] <doohan> pop and pushing stuff on to the stack, matrices all over the shop
[11:01:25] <Mazon> use a scenegraph then
[11:02:10] <doohan> That wasn't part of the course. If i'd have done that I wouldn't have got the marks :)
[11:04:56] <Mazon> then complaining about opengl being verbose is probably a bit besides the point when complring to xna ...
[11:05:13] <kevglass> xna is quite awesome tho :)
[11:05:39] <doohan> I wasn't comapring, I was just stating that the only real 3d stuff I've done was with jogl, I used xna for some 2d stuff
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[11:08:07] <doohan> A java app version of steam would be quite easy to make wouldn't it?
[11:09:13] <Mazon> steam is much more than just listing apps and selling them
[11:09:16] <doohan> But I imagine it would be quite trivial to pirate any games that were on it.
[11:09:29] <kappaOne> yeh but getting big AAA games on it would not
[11:09:40] <doohan> haha no that would be very difficult
[11:09:59] <doohan> And one of those, you need to know someone that knows someone type deals.
[11:11:20] <kappaOne> plus steam has some great first party titles that have a big user base, (half life2, portal, team fortress 2)
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[11:13:14] <doohan> So a steam for indie games wouldn't work because there's no AAA games on ti?
[11:17:03] <jezek2> doohan: steam works for indie games, but only to proven ones :)
[11:17:55] <doohan> mmm
[11:18:01] <jezek2> and it makes sense, providing only high quality stuff
[11:18:07] <doohan> Yeah that's true
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[11:18:20] <jezek2> as players have pretty high standards to expect
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[11:19:26] <doohan> Need to lower their expectations :)
[11:19:54] <kappaTwo> well imo don't think theres any indie game out there that'd persuade me to install a client like steam to run it
[11:19:54] <kappaTwo> only AAA games can do that
[11:19:55] <Scient|wrk> that might be a bit difficult :P
[11:20:26] <doohan> kappaTwo, good point.
[11:20:28] <Scient|wrk> imho its a bit difficult to persuade games to buy anything to play on the PC
[11:20:38] <Scient|wrk> pirate copies are just so easily obtainable
[11:21:17] <Scient|wrk> tho steams approach is better as you probably cant obtain illegal copies of some of the games they offer nad the prices are pretty low also
[11:21:28] <Scient|wrk> same goes for XBL marketplace and arcade games for example
[11:21:32] <Scient|wrk> you cant copy those from anywhere
[11:21:48] <Scient|wrk> overall the console market is imho a bit better in terms of piracy
[11:21:56] <jezek2> kappaTwo: indie games have often steam just as an alternative to other means of distribution, imho
[11:21:56] <Scient|wrk> lot less going on there i suppose, vs pc games
[11:22:43] <kappaTwo> online verification for multiplayer games seems pretty effective against pirates
[11:22:52] <jezek2> Scient|wrk: every game is cracked and pirated ;)
[11:23:20] <Scient|wrk> well for example castle crashers is only obtainable via XBL marketplace, i dont know any other way to get it :P
[11:23:25] <Scient|wrk> so i kindof _have_ to buy it
[11:23:28] <Scient|wrk> if i want it
[11:24:26] <jezek2> kappaTwo: but still many players are playing eg. non-steam CS etc. :)
[11:25:04] <kappaTwo> WoW?
[11:25:04] <kappaTwo> :)
[11:25:11] <jezek2> and wow too :)
[11:25:44] <jezek2> the good thing is that against other means of protection this one has actual benefits for users :)
[11:26:15] <doohan> What sort of benefits?
[11:26:20] <jezek2> like I enjoy that I can download game whenever I want and don't have to be installed or handling some CD/DVD stuff
[11:26:47] <doohan> cd and dvds don't really have long left for pc games
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[11:28:24] <doohan> Especially now that broadband speeds are starting to get fairly fast.
[11:29:01] <jezek2> though I dislike their 1 USD = 1 EUR conversion ratio
[11:29:14] <doohan> On steam?
[11:29:17] <jezek2> yeah
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[11:30:18] <jezek2> 1 U.S. dollar = 0.735726898 Euros
[11:30:23] <jezek2> not 1 euro
[11:30:57] <jezek2> as on steam :]
[11:31:01] <doohan> Stupid steam is updating just now.
[11:31:16] <doohan> I guess they do it differently in europe than they do in britain.
[11:33:05] <doohan> Though now I think about it, since they've changed to punds the prices do seem a little less unusual
[11:33:08] <doohan> pounds*
[11:33:18] <doohan> When you paid in dollars it was really good
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[12:17:00] <kappaThree> the new team ico games looks pretty good http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=xF3fED8EXl4
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[12:17:17] <kappaThree> love how they always come out with really unique games
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[12:33:32] <kevglass> lo
[12:36:25] <kevglass> just seen a screenshot of yore on a real phone
[12:36:29] <kevglass> soooo motivating
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[12:42:14] <kappaOne> cool, games works on a real phone now?
[12:43:25] <kevglass> nope
[12:43:31] <kevglass> just a screenshot shown full screen
[12:43:39] <kevglass> random - guy just happened to be over chatting
[12:43:53] <kevglass> got some feedback about touch area sizes tho
[12:44:02] <kevglass> seems it'll be fine as is in his opinion, uses his phone quite a lot
[12:44:06] <kevglass> might have to buy a g1 now tho :)
[12:44:23] <kappaOne> g2 is out too isn't it?
[12:44:30] <kevglass> yeah, but no keyboard
[12:44:36] <kevglass> and more expensive on vodafone
[12:45:19] <Scient|wrk> kevglass: developing it for iphone?
[12:45:29] <kevglass> android
[12:45:33] <Scient|wrk> oh, okay
[12:45:41] <Scient|wrk> havent seen any android phones so far over here
[12:45:52] <Scient|wrk> doubt ive seen any at all tbh, just heard about the technology
[12:48:52] <kevglass> lots turning up round here now
[12:49:54] <kevglass> someone said predicted growth was 900% in android store market thingy
[12:50:46] <Scient|wrk> i was just wondering if its going to be as big as iphone is
[12:50:54] <Scient|wrk> if not, its kind of dead before birth :P
[12:51:33] <Scient|wrk> but i understand that different providers will build their own phones with Android, meaning that there's the issue of display sizes again as with J2ME
[12:51:50] <Scient|wrk> thats one nice problem missign with the iphone
[12:54:11] <doohan> kappaOne, that game looks cooll.
[12:54:20] <doohan> Reminds me of something that studio ghibli might put out.
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[12:57:27] <doohan> I'd quite like an android phone
[12:57:29] <doohan> Just not on t-mobile
[12:58:03] <kevglass> so far both htcs have the same res
[12:58:08] <kevglass> 320x480
[12:58:12] <kevglass> g3 predicted to have the same
[12:58:21] <doohan> What about the samsung one?
[12:58:24] <kevglass> but agreed, res changes are anoying
[12:58:37] <kevglass> no details on the samsung, blackberry or acer phones yet
[12:58:59] <kevglass> but coding for res changes isn't too tricky
[12:59:04] <kevglass> feature changes much harder :)
[12:59:08] <doohan> 320x240 for the galaxy
[12:59:14] <doohan> 480*
[12:59:15] <doohan> doh
[12:59:24] <doohan> http://www.knowyourmobile.com/blog/253561/samsungs_android_phone_dubbed_galaxy.html
[12:59:51] <Scient|wrk> phones yet
[12:59:51] <Scient|wrk> [
[12:59:53] <Scient|wrk> ack
[13:00:02] <Scient|wrk> different resolutions are such a pain in the butt
[13:00:08] <Scient|wrk> with J2ME at least
[13:00:13] <kevglass> good news
[13:00:15] <Scient|wrk> as every model has its own stupid size
[13:00:17] <kevglass> 320x480 again
[13:00:30] <Scient|wrk> tho with android there wont be those annyoing feature support thingies i suppose
[13:00:40] <Scient|wrk> like one phone doesnt support some format and the other one does etc
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[13:36:39] <elias_naur> kevglass: it seems I've found myself having to do some android work (SDK ver. 1.5). Do the "bad news" from your blog still apply for that SDK version?
[13:36:48] <elias_naur> for example, the performance differences
[13:45:11] <kevglass> fraid so
[13:45:16] <kevglass> no floating point
[13:46:42] <kevglass> theres some great performance tips on the android pages tho
[13:46:59] <kevglass> um, how come you're doing android stuff?
[13:47:49] <elias_naur> freelance work
[13:48:19] <elias_naur> this is just a free test to check that I'm capable of understanding and coding to it
[13:48:50] <elias_naur> I have to do a simple, "cool" 3d effect that runs on the emulator
[13:49:53] <kevglass> you need to stick to fixed point math
[13:50:00] <kevglass> which was me was pretty painful
[13:50:13] <kevglass> but otherwise should be ok
[13:50:15] <elias_naur> yep, I gleaned that from previous android discussions
[13:50:29] <kevglass> http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/design/performance.html
[13:50:30] <elias_naur> too bad the performance is so lame
[13:50:37] <elias_naur> (of the emulator)
[13:50:50] <kevglass> I'm not convinced the new emulator is as bad
[13:50:58] <kevglass> my code before was pretty float oriented
[13:51:04] <kevglass> without an FPU thats killer.
[13:51:47] <kevglass> seems like no hotspot really
[13:51:54] <kevglass> so lots of manual optimisations
[13:52:03] <kevglass> imagine it's going to pretty painful when I port even my simple rpg
[13:52:11] <elias_naur> better than iphone dev I suppose
[13:52:20] <elias_naur> objc and mac only ... yuck
[13:52:21] <kevglass> yeah, I did that for a bit
[13:52:25] <kevglass> had a few demos working
[13:52:31] <kevglass> XCode made my eyes bleed
[13:52:45] <elias_naur> we released a game for it :)
[13:52:55] <kevglass> oooooh, where!?
[13:52:57] <elias_naur> tribal trouble tower defense :)
[13:53:06] <elias_naur> not that good, but at least it's a game
[13:53:24] <kevglass> still, it's scary how far back android java pushes us
[13:53:27] <kevglass> sorta like coding for 1.3
[13:53:37] <kevglass> but with 1.5 features (that you shouldn't use cause they're slow :))
[13:53:45] <elias_naur> nice
[13:53:48] <kevglass> oooh, look at that, tower defence with the tribe
[13:53:53] <kevglass> much money in it?
[13:54:35] <elias_naur> $1200 for 3 weeks until now
[13:55:11] <elias_naur> we started back when no tower defence games existed but got sidetracked :)
[13:55:26] <kevglass> $1200 ain't bad tho
[13:55:44] <kevglass> not going to pay many bills, but don't spose it took long to knock up either ?
[13:56:31] <elias_naur> it took a while, on and off
[13:56:52] <elias_naur> mostly a test to see if we should do more stuff on the iphone
[13:57:19] <kevglass> decided?
[13:57:30] <kevglass> market seems a bit flooded to me atm
[13:57:30] <elias_naur> nope, we're busy with tt2 atm
[13:57:37] <elias_naur> that's right
[13:57:43] <elias_naur> and the game prices are going way down
[13:57:43] <kevglass> have to be such a differentiator
[13:57:53] <elias_naur> we started at $3 but most simple games are @$1 now
[13:57:55] <kevglass> android market = just about ready for a dip :)
[13:58:53] <elias_naur> hmm, when I use ant reinstall the app doesn't update
[13:59:05] <elias_naur> I have to restart the emulator - is there a better way?
[14:00:11] <kevglass> didn't use the ant stuff
[14:00:26] <kevglass> not directly at least
[14:01:35] <kevglass> just looking through my rpg code now
[14:01:42] <kevglass> gonna take quite a phase of optimising :/
[14:06:08] <elias_naur> bah, translucent gl views doesn't work on the 1.5 emulator :/
[14:06:22] <elias_naur> ½ hour fiddling and stumpled on first bug
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[14:11:26] <kappaTwo> oh looks like jogl's been updated to use certificate with no security dialog
[14:11:53] <kevglass> lwjgl applets = oh dear.
[14:12:37] <kevglass> can see minecraft being ported in the next few hours?
[14:13:31] <kevglass> do I need a JOGL renderer for slick now? cause that would be da pain.
[14:14:27] <kappaTwo> well it only works for 1.6.0_10+
[14:14:54] <kappaTwo> but guess so eventually
[14:14:55] <kevglass> right, but surely on < 1.6.0_10 you get the security dialog anyway
[14:15:04] <Scient|wrk> whats the fuzz with those certs anyhow, havent been following it that much
[14:15:05] <kappaTwo> yeh
[14:15:12] <kevglass> oh dear.
[14:15:36] <kappaTwo> unless lwjgl can get a hold of those cert's (highly unlikely)
[14:15:40] * kevglass writes a JOGL/LWJGL compatiblity library
[14:15:56] <kevglass> provides LWJGL GL11/12/13 and maps onto JOGL :)
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[14:17:23] <kevglass> ah wait
[14:17:27] <kevglass> joal also?
[14:17:30] <kevglass> jinput also?
[14:17:40] <kappaTwo> yup looks like it
[14:17:57] <kevglass> where?
[14:18:16] <kappaTwo> they use the same cert
[14:18:41] <kappaTwo> https://jogl-demos.dev.java.net/applettest.html
[14:18:47] <kappaTwo> ah wait thats jogl applet
[14:19:25] <kevglass> aye
[14:19:38] <kevglass> not much use unless joal is done also
[14:19:43] <kevglass> jinput can probably get by without
[14:20:07] <kappaTwo> hopefully they didn't sign jinput
[14:20:24] <kappaTwo> that'd make a seriously dangrous keylogger
[14:20:31] <kappaTwo> *dangerous
[14:20:42] <kevglass> aye
[14:21:19] <elias_naur> hmm, how can they guard against all opengl crashes?
[14:21:25] <kevglass> they can't
[14:21:31] <kevglass> they've punted for the risk
[14:21:34] <elias_naur> is jogl checking all buffer accesses for overflow etc.?
[14:21:42] <kevglass> nope
[14:21:49] * kappaTwo waits for shader based virus :)
[14:21:54] <elias_naur> so I can crash a jvm with a simple glTexImage?
[14:22:00] <kevglass> Ken doesn't sound terrible impressed
[14:22:01] <elias_naur> *applet jvm
[14:23:13] <elias_naur> and without buffer checks a glGetTexImage could probably be used to overwrite jvm internals
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[14:23:38] <elias_naur> and if I'm not mistaken, the applet jvms are running with (at least) user privileges
[14:23:58] <kevglass> joal is also signed
[14:24:04] <kappaOne> not looking good for java with all the stories yesterday about java exploits on the mac
[14:24:12] <kevglass> https://jogl-demos.dev.java.net/applettest-joal.html
[14:24:13] <kappaOne> and ppl recommending that java be disabled
[14:24:22] <elias_naur> what stories?
[14:24:33] <kappaOne> http://www.osnews.com/story/21522/9_Month_Old_Critical_Java_Vuln_Still_Not_Patched_in_Mac_OS_X
[14:24:39] <kappaOne> on a number of sites
[14:24:57] <kappaOne> this could blow up even more badly for java
[14:25:09] <NoobFukaire> that sucks for sun, lol
[14:25:15] <NoobFukaire> since apple is responsible for all that
[14:25:27] <NoobFukaire> I wonder what kind of agreements they have in this situation
[14:25:48] <NoobFukaire> considering apple's poor response to security on there platform is hurting Sun's image
[14:25:56] <NoobFukaire> on their platform rather
[14:25:59] <kevglass> joal demo blows up for me
[14:26:19] <kevglass> damn it, I have to write a JOGL/JOAL impl for slick now
[14:26:41] <kevglass> applet ppl will moan otherwise
[14:27:11] <elias_naur> :)
[14:27:26] <NoobFukaire> at least the jogl stuff should be easy
[14:28:10] <kevglass> aye
[14:28:15] <kevglass> both are probably easy ish
[14:28:25] <kevglass> but it means work
[14:28:31] <NoobFukaire> yeah, REDUNDANT work
[14:28:36] <kevglass> aye
[14:28:55] <kevglass> given I'm not using Slick atm, it might be a while
[14:29:18] <NoobFukaire> you're not using slick for yore?
[14:29:27] <kevglass> nope
[14:29:31] <kevglass> doesn't suit android
[14:29:36] <NoobFukaire> ah
[14:29:50] <kevglass> it's such a load of arse this
[14:29:59] <kevglass> sun stick a knife in lwjgl
[14:35:01] <jezek2> hmm still not quite convinced that opengl applets are good idea :)
[14:35:21] <doohan> They're an awesome idea
[14:35:29] <kevglass> doesn't make any difference
[14:35:32] <jezek2> it's cool but the idea of crashing browsers or even OSes
[14:35:35] <kevglass> the masses are convinced :)
[14:35:36] <jezek2> is not much good
[14:36:37] <jezek2> the pity is that applet security is so binary ...
[14:38:07] <jezek2> having just jogl or lwjgl as special case is not much better than current state
[14:38:23] <jezek2> I want to do other things too with applets :)
[14:39:07] <kevglass> better still, jogl has "all permissions"
[14:42:13] <jezek2> oh and other thing, I see jogl technically worser by many decisions they made, like their screenshot ability (used in GLJPanel) that favours windows over other platforms, instead of just accepting that opengl is working upside down than in classic 2D we're used to :)
[14:42:46] <jezek2> the "object oriented" approach at wrong level, or the fancy utils
[14:42:52] <kevglass> aye
[14:43:03] <kevglass> but killer feature is no security dialog
[14:43:10] <jezek2> I know it's worser because I've been there many years ago
[14:43:17] <jezek2> and it's not the good way to do it ;)
[14:43:52] <_Riven> its alsmost like embrace and extend, but then by Sun - making it harder for people to switch to LWJGL
[14:43:59] <jezek2> yeah, that's the only killer feature
[14:44:08] <kevglass> the real downside is that goussej thinks he was right and is going to go on and on about it
[14:44:17] * kevglass is thinking about hiring a sniper.
[14:44:30] <_Riven> this chat is logged!! aaah!
[14:44:35] <jezek2> though in reality every serious stuff is done wth LWJGL ;)
[14:44:46] <kevglass> indeed
[14:44:50] <kevglass> sun could just sign lwjgl :)
[14:44:55] <kevglass> that'd be nice and easy then
[14:44:58] <doohan> Ask oracle :P
[14:45:32] <jezek2> personally Sun has died by the buyout and don't care anymore about them
[14:46:04] <jezek2> *has died for me
[14:46:05] <jezek2> :)
[14:47:14] <kappaOne> not gonna wait to see what impact this is gonna have?
[14:47:25] <kevglass> how do you mean?
[14:47:26] <jezek2> and on the other side I see emerging need for better "VM" based on dynamic AOT compiler, that's optimized for realtime stuff like games :)
[14:47:34] <kappaOne> sun might have to pull the plug on this certificate
[14:47:39] <kevglass> why?
[14:47:44] <kappaOne> if the security ppl make it a big issue
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[14:47:56] <kevglass> pretty unlikely isn't it?
[14:48:11] <Dragonene_> hey
[14:48:13] <kevglass> javafx = pecieved future for client java
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[14:48:19] <kevglass> javafx needs this cert thing
[14:48:34] <kappaOne> javafx is fine sinces its api can't crash the browser
[14:48:40] <kappaOne> but opengl and openal can
[14:48:46] <kevglass> javafx is going to use opengl?
[14:48:47] <kappaOne> they could even crash the system
[14:49:05] <kappaOne> yeh but it'll probably be wrapped by some api
[14:49:31] <kevglass> so, it's not going to be sandboxed
[14:50:35] <kevglass> javafx required no cert, javafx required opengl, this thing has to exist?
[14:50:41] <kevglass> even if they combined jogl with javafx
[14:51:19] <kevglass> you'd still find people shipping javafx libraries to get signed jogl :)
[14:51:38] <kevglass> whose bashing goussej?
[14:51:42] <kevglass> who is even
[14:52:14] <kevglass> seems like a passionate person thats all :)
[14:52:45] <_Riven> that's a very kind description :)
[14:53:14] <_Riven> he's borderline trolling
[14:53:57] <_Riven> but very passionate, yes :)
[14:54:12] <Dragonene> In case anybody's interested, http://lab.polygonal.de/2009/01/21/benchmarking-gotchas/
[14:54:18] <Dragonene> DrPetter just linked to that in ludumdare
[14:54:28] <Dragonene> It's like I thought then. Can't trust the debug player
[14:54:40] <Dragonene> it runs pixeloids horribly slow, but it seems you shouldn't test on the debug pla
[14:54:42] <Dragonene> player anyway*
[14:55:02] <kappaOne> drag you need to come back to java, we now have jogl dialog free applets :)
[14:55:17] <Dragonene> really?
[14:55:20] <Dragonene> is this a new thing?
[14:55:30] <kappaOne> yes
[14:55:32] <kappaOne> https://jogl-demos.dev.java.net/applettest.html
[14:55:35] <kappaOne> see now dialog
[14:55:36] <Dragonene> why on earth do they do those things with JOGL and not LWJGL
[14:55:38] <kappaOne> *no
[14:56:02] <Dragonene> There's no slick for JOGL dammit
[14:56:08] <kappaOne> see log :)
[14:56:19] <Dragonene> I tried to read it
[14:56:25] <Dragonene> I just confused
[14:56:27] <Dragonene> you talked about lots of different things at once
[14:56:44] <Dragonene> kappaOne: uh
[14:56:47] <Dragonene> there was a dialog for me...
[14:56:53] <kappaOne> mac?
[14:56:58] <Dragonene> "An applet is trying to run with permissions that may harm your computer..." etc
[14:57:00] <Dragonene> no, win xp
[14:57:01] <Dragonene> opera.
[14:57:05] <kappaOne> ah opera crap
[14:57:20] <kappaOne> thats because it doesn't use the sun plugin
[14:57:31] <kappaOne> try in ie or ff
[14:57:58] <Dragonene> pfah
[14:58:03] <Dragonene> won't work with slick, won't work in opera
[14:58:08] <Dragonene> it's all the same to me then
[14:58:08] <Dragonene> :)
[15:01:26] <kevglass> there can be jogl for slick tho if it's worth it
[15:01:36] <kevglass> there was no reason to use worse technology before
[15:04:05] <Dragonene> yeah I guess
[15:04:45] <kevglass> but kappa is probably right
[15:04:48] <kevglass> give a week or two
[15:04:50] <kevglass> see what happens
[15:05:38] <Dragonene> aye absolutely
[15:05:42] <Dragonene> no need to rush into anything
[15:06:24] <kevglass> bunch of bugs outstanding in slick atm
[15:06:28] <kevglass> probably should get them sorted first
[15:06:50] <Dragonene> how come sun don't support LWJGL by now
[15:06:57] <Dragonene> just no need since they have JOGL?
[15:07:55] <kevglass> oh drag, meant to say, take it back about tigirc
[15:08:06] <kevglass> funny folks, not bad at all, not like the forums at all
[15:08:14] <Dragonene> :)
[15:08:32] <kappaOne> i thought sun did support lwjgl, they did give them a computer right?
[15:08:32] <Dragonene> well, there's some trollish people in there occasionally
[15:08:34] <Dragonene> but mostly it's pretty good
[15:09:26] <kevglass> aye, like the manic nature of the place too
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[15:09:38] <kevglass> tends to be rather alot of ideas out of no where.
[15:10:30] <Dragonene> yeah
[15:10:34] <Dragonene> they're good at ideas
[15:12:34] <Dragonene> I'm off to watch some TV then go to bed
[15:12:39] <Dragonene> later folks
[15:12:40] <kevglass> nn
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[16:00:10] <NoobFukaure> man windows is soo good
[16:00:24] <NoobFukaure> plugged in a mouse, BSOD
[16:00:28] <NoobFukaure> gooo Microsoft
[16:00:32] <kevglass> feel the quality in that finish
[16:01:04] <NoobFukaure> and this is a fresh oem install of vista too
[16:01:09] <NoobFukaure> such quality and refinement
[16:03:09] <Scient|wrk> sometimes it just makes me wonder how the biggest haters always have the most unbelievable problems :D
[16:03:24] <NoobFukaure> how did you get off my ignore list
[16:05:32] <kevglass> oh dear
[16:05:37] * kevglass chants fight fight fight fight
[16:06:26] <Scient|wrk> it would be like to convince a muslim that other religions are okay too :)
[16:06:41] <Scient|wrk> i should probably add "extremist muslims" tho
[16:06:41] <kevglass> muslims believe that already
[16:06:49] <Scient|wrk> maybe someone is offended otherwise :P
[16:07:04] <kevglass> probably, and with good reason
[16:07:15] <kevglass> and you had the cheek to call someone attacking windows a hater :P
[16:07:51] <Scient|wrk> hah
[16:08:03] <NoobFukaure> yeah, it's debatable if any other OS is much better, but Windows sucking is practically a law set in stone
[16:08:08] <Scient|wrk> well thats how i see them sadly, i can work my way around any OS
[16:08:17] <Scient|wrk> dont see a reason to bash any of them
[16:08:25] <natte|wrk_> try plan9 :P
[16:08:26] <kevglass> if it runs Eclipse, it's ok (tm)
[16:08:30] <Scient|wrk> :D
[16:08:40] <Scient|wrk> plan9 doesnt :(
[16:08:46] <kevglass> then it's shit.
[16:08:50] <kevglass> fact.
[16:09:35] <Dragonene> NoobFukaire: It's old news that you hate windows tho :P
[16:09:39] <natte|wrk_> http://www.operating-system.org/betriebssystem/bsgfx/os/plan9-scr-05.jpg :D
[16:09:41] <Dragonene> We've had this discussion before.
[16:09:45] <NoobFukaure> I don't hate it, it's like a retarded child
[16:10:30] <kevglass> you pay it special attention?
[16:10:34] <Dragonene> You're on the extremist anti-windows side really, so I take what you say about laws set in stone with a grain of salt
[16:10:39] <Dragonene> No offense.
[16:10:42] <NoobFukaure> wtf
[16:10:47] <Scient|wrk> its like wanting to drive a BMW and buying a Ford instead and then whining about it not being a BMW or something that, not really sharp on analogies today :>
[16:10:47] <NoobFukaure> extremist, lol
[16:10:51] <Dragonene> Well
[16:10:58] <Dragonene> I've never seen you say a positive word about windows
[16:11:10] <Dragonene> Me, on the other hand, have never ever seen anything like a BSOD when plugging in a mouse
[16:11:15] <Scient|wrk> me neither
[16:11:18] <NoobFukaure> OMFG
[16:11:21] <NoobFukaure> AS YOU SAID THAT
[16:11:21] <Scient|wrk> and i have used windows a lot
[16:11:22] <Scient|wrk> :)
[16:11:32] * kevglass grins
[16:11:33] <NoobFukaure> an SVN checkout was killed because Windows is doing an update
[16:11:38] <kevglass> go go go!
[16:11:53] <NoobFukaure> Dragonene, folks like you have stockholm syndrome
[16:11:59] <NoobFukaure> you're not stupid or bad or anything
[16:12:04] <Scient|wrk> wtf... svn checkout killed...
[16:12:07] <Scient|wrk> automatic restart?
[16:12:15] <NoobFukaure> You just can't see the forest from the trees
[16:12:36] <kevglass> oh come now, can't we agree
[16:12:39] <kevglass> you're both idiots :)
[16:13:09] <Scient|wrk> im using windows, linux _and_ OSX
[16:13:17] <kevglass> not _and_ surely?
[16:13:20] <Scient|wrk> have no gripe with any of them :P
[16:13:37] <Notch_> lol
[16:13:50] <Notch_> I'm too tired to understand what's going on
[16:13:56] <doohan> If it'll run java then it works for me
[16:13:56] <kevglass> just as well, it doesn't matter
[16:13:57] <Scient|wrk> i was a bit biased towards mac before tbh :)
[16:13:58] <kevglass> OS wars.
[16:14:00] <Scient|wrk> about it being crap etc
[16:14:01] <kevglass> might be a good game
[16:14:08] <Notch_> oh, haha
[16:14:18] <Scient|wrk> one thing i dont get is how can i get java 1.6 on OSX tho
[16:14:33] <kevglass> thats cause you're not l33t
[16:14:40] <doohan> With a little energon, and a lot of luck.
[16:14:47] <NoobFukaure> only I'm officially l33t
[16:14:51] <NoobFukaure> in this channel
[16:14:52] * kevglass nods
[16:14:55] * kevglass has seen your badge.
[16:15:12] <kevglass> "l33ting idiot" it says
[16:15:35] <Scient|wrk> oh Notch_, youre the author of minecraft right?
[16:15:39] <Scient|wrk> or who was it
[16:15:49] <Notch_> It's I.
[16:15:52] <NoobFukaure> man this configuring updates is great
[16:16:16] <Scient|wrk> im getting around 30-50 fps in your applet on latest OSX, java 1.5.0_016 and firefox
[16:16:23] <Scient|wrk> for some reason
[16:16:23] <Notch_> is that good or bad?
[16:16:52] <Scient|wrk> i think its bad, my video should be equivalt of Geforece 8600 or something like that
[16:17:01] <Scient|wrk> equivalent even
[16:17:03] <Notch_> oh..
[16:17:13] <Notch_> what do you mean "equivalent"?
[16:17:14] <Notch_> what is it?
[16:17:29] <Scient|wrk> well in "mac world" its geforce 120 somethingsomething :P
[16:17:47] <Scient|wrk> so the pc version of the same card would be 8600
[16:18:11] <Scient|wrk> at least thats what im told
[16:18:39] <Notch_> i see.. haha
[16:18:44] <Notch_> what did you get in the last version?
[16:18:44] <Scient|wrk> but someone here suggested that it looks like im getting software rendering, which might be true
[16:19:13] <Scient|wrk> hmm the last time i tried was on sunday
[16:19:53] <Scient|wrk> ill have to find some time and check if my video drivers are up to date and perhaps try and upgrade to java 6 and see how it performs then
[16:20:32] <NoobFukaure> oh hey Dragonene, I like Vista's fonts
[16:20:40] <NoobFukaure> it's my favorite new feature
[16:20:47] <NoobFukaure> and the most reliable
[16:22:51] <Dragonene> see, you keep attacking me :S
[16:23:01] <NoobFukaure> I'm saying something good about Windows
[16:23:03] <Dragonene> "folks like you [...]", what's that about
[16:23:13] <Dragonene> oh, well I just read back
[16:23:35] <NoobFukaure> well people who have an overwhelmingly positive view of windows vs other options
[16:23:38] <Dragonene> NoobFukaure: Seriously though, I use unix, osx and windows somewhat regularly
[16:23:49] <Dragonene> And I don't see any clear advantage to unix or osx
[16:24:16] <Dragonene> I think OSX is oversimplified and Unix (Solaris, specifically) is unnecessarily complex
[16:24:27] <Dragonene> Windows sits neatly in between for me.
[16:24:30] <NoobFukaure> What are your thoughts on Ubuntu?
[16:24:41] <Dragonene> I have only used Ubuntu for some 5-10 minuets
[16:24:47] <NoobFukaure> ah, you should try it for longer
[16:24:49] <Dragonene> So I don't have any thoughts worth their name
[16:25:05] <Dragonene> Well yes, I'm sure there's plenty of good stuff in Ubuntu
[16:25:18] <Dragonene> My experience with Ubuntu is that people seem unable to run Java programs
[16:25:24] <Dragonene> because of the JVM they use.
[16:25:39] <NoobFukaure> it used to be a problem with the proprietary Sun distribution not in the package manager
[16:25:43] <NoobFukaure> nowadays everything's cool
[16:25:49] <Dragonene> ArchLinux and Ubuntu are the two OSs where I see the most java problems
[16:26:14] <Dragonene> And windows, of course
[16:26:14] <NoobFukaure> it'd be mainly older versions, like pre-intrepid
[16:26:20] <NoobFukaure> so anything older than a year
[16:26:28] <NoobFukaure> there's been two new releases in that time frame
[16:26:33] <Dragonene> But I get the feeling that the number of failures *per user* is lower on windows
[16:26:44] <Dragonene> because so many more people use windows
[16:27:00] <NoobFukaure> yeah and Sun's jvm is bundled with a lot of oem products
[16:27:08] <NoobFukaure> only home built machines aren't distributed with it
[16:27:22] <Dragonene> well okay, but even if Ubuntu is good (I can't say either way) that doesn't necessarily make windows bad.
[16:27:35] <NoobFukaure> that's true
[16:27:45] <Dragonene> I mean, having tried a couple of different operating systems, I've not found that any others work better for me than Windows.
[16:27:48] <NoobFukaure> Windows makes windows bad
[16:27:54] <NoobFukaure> it's too easy for newbies to destroy it
[16:27:57] <Dragonene> Of course I'm biased by having used Windows more
[16:28:04] <NoobFukaure> and it lacks powerful tools for power users
[16:28:13] <NoobFukaure> I've used windows and linux about equally
[16:28:13] <Dragonene> but I've used OSX a fair deal too, and solaris... some. Not quite as much.
[16:28:22] <NoobFukaure> I only started using linux desktops about 4 years ago
[16:28:33] <NoobFukaure> before that was DOS until Windows XP
[16:28:37] <Dragonene> NoobFukaire: I don't agree, I think Windows has plenty of powerful tools. For my level of usage
[16:28:45] <Dragonene> Which most people would call "power usage"
[16:28:53] <Dragonene> Perhaps not by #lwjgl standards.
[16:28:53] <NoobFukaure> Believe me, it's not even close
[16:28:58] <Dragonene> But by the vast majority of people.
[16:29:32] <Dragonene> ...can't you at least admit that it's subjective?
[16:29:40] <Dragonene> Just because you don't like Windows doesn't make it a bad choice for me.
[16:29:45] <NoobFukaure> it's not subjective if you're very familiar with both
[16:29:50] <NoobFukaure> I'm not saying it's a bad choice for you
[16:29:55] <NoobFukaure> I'm saying Vista's fonts are awesome
[16:30:04] <Dragonene> I don't particularly like Vista
[16:30:11] <Dragonene> I haven't used it since the beta, but it was utter crap then
[16:30:14] <NoobFukaure> me either, but that doesn't make it's fonts bad
[16:30:24] <Dragonene> ...
[16:30:30] <NoobFukaure> oh, so you're using XP then?
[16:30:32] <Dragonene> You're entirely impossible to have a discussion with
[16:30:33] <Dragonene> Yes.
[16:30:47] <Dragonene> XP Pro at home and XP Tablet Edition on my laptop
[16:30:47] <NoobFukaure> that's interesting
[16:30:49] <Dragonene> Tablet Edition is crud
[16:30:52] <Dragonene> I don't like it.
[16:30:56] <Dragonene> Pro is pretty good.
[16:31:01] <NoobFukaure> I had a XP tablet
[16:31:05] <NoobFukaure> I liked OneNote
[16:31:07] <Dragonene> Tablet Edition is pro + features that makes it run slow.
[16:31:16] <NoobFukaure> Sketchbook is a nice app as well
[16:31:33] <Dragonene> Huh, I don't use the tablet features as much as I'd like to.
[16:31:48] <NoobFukaure> If you haven't checked out sketchbook, I'd go for that immediately
[16:31:51] <Dragonene> The partial screenshot thingy where you draw the screenshot areas is my most used tablet program.
[16:31:57] <Dragonene> Sketchbook by Alias?
[16:32:00] <NoobFukaure> yeah
[16:32:00] <Dragonene> Yeah, I use it occasionally.
[16:32:07] <Dragonene> It's good, but not perfect
[16:32:15] <Dragonene> the latest version seems to have a lot of essential improvements.
[16:32:20] <NoobFukaure> It's the best sketchbook program I've used though
[16:32:27] <Dragonene> I wouldn't disagree with that.
[16:32:27] <NoobFukaure> My current tablet is a slate from tabletkiosk
[16:32:39] <NoobFukaure> but it came preloaded with Linux and I use the GIMP for sketches
[16:32:43] <Dragonene> I hear Windows 7 is pretty good.
[16:32:49] <NoobFukaure> GIMP is okay but it's not as good as sketchbook
[16:33:05] <NoobFukaure> because it doesn't have the nice features for using the stylus to move and rotate things
[16:33:06] <Dragonene> GIMP is a good tool, but I find it hard to use tools like that for drawing
[16:33:07] <NoobFukaure> it's more like photoshop
[16:33:14] <Dragonene> It's better at photo editing
[16:33:27] <Dragonene> Have you tried CherryBrush?
[16:33:31] <Dragonene> I guess it might be windows only
[16:33:38] <Dragonene> you could ask drpetter to make a linux build perhaps.
[16:34:00] <NoobFukaure> the screenshots look like an old unix app
[16:34:07] <NoobFukaure> but maybe it's because his GL widget set isn't the focus
[16:34:09] <Dragonene> yes, the looks are pretty boring
[16:34:21] <Dragonene> I don't really like his overly minimalistic style for tools
[16:34:25] <Dragonene> that doesn't make them bad though.
[16:34:30] <NoobFukaure> pretty cool though, the rotating is the best part of sketchbook
[16:34:31] <Dragonene> SFXR is a fantastic program
[16:34:35] <Dragonene> and cherry brush is pretty good
[16:34:49] <Dragonene> have you seen his fill functions and stuff in cherrybrush?
[16:34:52] <Dragonene> they're pretty awesome
[16:34:59] <Dragonene> you can fill against an outline made in another layer
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[16:35:13] <Dragonene> and it'll let you fill properly against soft brushes
[16:35:24] <Dragonene> you can also make the brush reshape automatically to shrink when it touches an outline
[16:35:38] <Dragonene> so that you can fill areas by hand without it spreading past an outline
[16:35:49] <Dragonene> it's really quite innovative
[16:35:57] <Dragonene> I'd love to see those features in mainstream apps
[16:36:38] <Dragonene> another thing to consider btw: I play games. Quite often.
[16:36:46] <Dragonene> That's a strong reason to use windows... :)
[16:36:52] <Dragonene> Whether you like it or not.
[16:37:04] <NoobFukaure> that's really the only compelling reason to use windows
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[16:37:41] <NoobFukaure> and it's a shame
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[16:38:36] <Dragonene> I admit that is the main reason I use windows.
[16:39:05] <Dragonene> But every time I use linux or osx, I find myself bothered by little usability issues
[16:39:05] <NoobFukaure> I wouldn't argue that, Windows has the widest support for games. It's *the* games platform right now
[16:39:13] <Dragonene> You can probably configure it to get rid of them
[16:39:17] <NoobFukaure> try Ubuntu 9.04 when you get a chance
[16:39:28] <Dragonene> But I don't want to have to do to much configuration
[16:39:34] <NoobFukaure> it's the smoothest OS I've ever used
[16:39:37] <Dragonene> OSX, on the other hand, is a marvel of usability
[16:39:39] <NoobFukaure> there isn't an configuration to do
[16:39:42] <Dragonene> except for the fact that it sucks.
[16:39:46] <NoobFukaure> it makes OSX look complicated
[16:39:52] <Dragonene> Oh no :(
[16:39:56] <Dragonene> OSX is waaaaay too simple for me
[16:40:09] <NoobFukaure> I meant in terms of configuration
[16:40:17] <Dragonene> fair enough
[16:40:27] <NoobFukaure> but you still CAN tweak ubuntu, if you want
[16:40:27] <Dragonene> Curiosity: In OSX, you can't set the mouse sensitivity
[16:40:32] <NoobFukaure> whereas with OSX you're basically screwed
[16:40:33] <Dragonene> Without downloading a standalone utility.
[16:40:35] <Dragonene> True story.
[16:40:44] <Dragonene> This alone makes OSX a bad operating system
[16:40:44] <NoobFukaure> yeah stuff like that is stupid
[16:40:46] <Scient|wrk> hmm, afaik you can, it took me a week to find it tho :)
[16:40:50] <Dragonene> Scient: Nah
[16:40:54] <Dragonene> You can set mouse acceleration
[16:40:57] <Dragonene> which is not at all the same thing
[16:41:00] <Scient|wrk> tracking = accel?
[16:41:15] <Dragonene> acceleration makes the cursor make bigger and bigger jumps as you move the mouse
[16:41:26] <Scient|wrk> i remember fiddling around with the tracking speed setting and it kindof felt faster
[16:41:28] <Dragonene> sensitivity is the absolute base speed of the mouse
[16:41:35] <NoobFukaure> http://www.simplehelp.net/images/postubuntu/mouse02a.png
[16:41:52] <Dragonene> Yes. For some reason, XP only has sensitivity
[16:41:52] <Scient|wrk> but at times it feels a bit oversimplified yes
[16:42:02] <Dragonene> I think NT or maybe 2000 had both acceleration and sensitiivity
[16:42:06] <Dragonene> but they removed the accel stuff
[16:42:13] <Dragonene> I think they put it back in vista though...
[16:42:15] <Scient|wrk> because of the gamers i suppose :P
[16:42:29] <Scient|wrk> remember a lot of whining over windows mouse accel when i was playing quake and stuff
[16:42:29] <Dragonene> well
[16:42:35] <Dragonene> most games lets you set sensitivity themselves
[16:42:37] <NoobFukaure> no there's just motion
[16:42:40] <Dragonene> so that's not where it's important
[16:42:57] <Dragonene> anyway, the way it looks like in that ubuntu screen is how it should be
[16:43:02] <Dragonene> one slider for acc, one for sens
[16:43:14] <Scient|wrk> i have been using logitech mouses for a long time and with those you can use SetPoint, which is a bit bloated but you can finetune your mouse neatly at least
[16:43:20] <Scient|wrk> per app/game settings etc
[16:43:27] <Dragonene> I don't know
[16:43:31] <Dragonene> I sort of get used to it usually
[16:43:37] <Dragonene> as long as it's not insanely slow or fast
[16:43:45] <Dragonene> Except on OSX of course
[16:43:47] <NoobFukaure> yeah I usually don't mess with it
[16:43:51] <Dragonene> because the mouse cursor is painful there
[16:43:53] <Dragonene> I hate it so much
[16:44:01] <Dragonene> It sort of floats around in this really awkward way
[16:44:01] <Scient|wrk> plus im not sure that windows even lets you set the actions for buttons 4 to n+1
[16:44:22] <Dragonene> Scient|wrk: No, I don't think it does per default
[16:44:27] <Dragonene> but all those mice come with drivers
[16:44:28] <Dragonene> that let you do that
[16:44:49] <Dragonene> I can check actually
[16:44:55] <Dragonene> I don't have any custom drivers on this install
[16:45:25] <Dragonene> Nope
[16:45:34] <Dragonene> default drivers don't let you set any actions for the buttons
[16:45:47] <Dragonene> they expect the hardware companies to provide those drivers
[16:46:03] <Dragonene> which isn't too unreasonable if you ask me
[16:46:09] <Dragonene> but I guess it wouldn't hurt
[16:50:01] <doohan> I had a problem with the lasty version of ubuntu and my trackpad, the cursor had 0 momentum
[16:50:40] <doohan> In windows I can move it and take my finger off and it still moves just a little bit after I let go.
[16:52:29] <Dragonene> doohan: that'd be acceleration related I guess
[16:52:36] <doohan> I played with that.
[16:53:19] <doohan> On the plus side though, the new version of ubuntu picks up my ati remote without any questions
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[16:55:36] <rnd9> hello there
[16:57:17] <rnd9> with netbeans/svn I just download "https://java-game-lib.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/java-game-lib/trunk/LWJGL" and created a new library project from it. I want to build the library by myself but i dont find any howtoo on that. Can some one give me a hint?
[16:57:42] <rnd9> (join #jME
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[17:21:49] <Dragonene> night.
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[17:51:10] <_Riven> i getting so tired of those postings
[17:51:17] <_Riven> i read on JGO that i deleted my account
[17:51:32] <woogley> you did, didn't you?
[17:51:42] <_Riven> it is posted today!
[17:52:06] <woogley> lol
[17:52:10] <woogley> 388 posts later
[17:52:12] <woogley> someone notices
[17:52:39] <woogley> if it makes you feel better, i noticed it when it happened
[17:52:45] <woogley> we were in a thread together actually
[17:52:53] <woogley> so kinda obvious when the hyperlink went away
[17:52:57] <_Riven> I updated my sig to annoy the bastard
[17:53:12] <woogley> heh saw that
[17:53:43] <woogley> didnt they have some sort of candle service when kev left?
[17:53:45] <woogley> heh..
[17:53:47] <_Riven> i was pissed, beyond any measure, and didn't visit JGO for 15 days (record!)
[17:54:07] <_Riven> yeah... you could also donate blood
[17:54:19] <woogley> yea well im glad you/kev didnt post a fuckin "sorry guys, i have to move on" thread
[17:54:39] <woogley> because when it comes down to it, at the end of the day, i dont care about anyone on that level
[17:54:41] <woogley> its a forum.
[17:54:51] <_Riven> anybody that does that, thinks too much of himself
[17:55:28] <woogley> now that i think of it
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[17:55:33] <woogley> i actually like your negativity
[17:55:43] <kevglass> you do?
[17:55:44] <kevglass> aww
[17:55:47] <woogley> i dont think that MathEval thing wouldlve been developed so fast
[17:55:54] <woogley> had you not nitpicked it almost immediately :P
[17:56:16] <_Riven> it is more likely that a n00b will leave that way, maybe in his first post -- 'i have visited this form for a few years, and in this first post, i'd like to tell you all i'm leaving'
[17:56:23] <woogley> kev: we're talking about how everyone cried themselves to sleep when you left
[17:56:38] <woogley> but after 3 months, someone finally noticed Riven deleted his account too
[17:56:56] <_Riven> your MathEval is extremely dirty :p but maybe faster than a proper tree based structure
[17:57:10] <woogley> lol i didnt have time for that
[17:57:12] <kevglass> Riven deleted his account!?
[17:57:15] * kevglass chuckles
[17:57:15] <_Riven> again?!
[17:57:25] <woogley> and now that i do, i spend my time .. doing nothing
[17:57:26] <_Riven> what a moron
[17:57:32] * kevglass nods
[17:57:41] * kevglass is back on jgo tho
[17:57:45] <kevglass> so no one need to cry
[17:57:49] <_Riven> we started a trend kev... eh, i did
[17:57:52] <woogley> as kevglass
[17:57:53] <woogley> ?
[17:57:58] <woogley> or as some gay alias?
[17:57:59] <kevglass> no, what fun would that be?
[17:58:05] <kevglass> definitely gay alias
[17:58:05] <_Riven> i think so, or somebody else would steal his nick
[17:58:11] <_Riven> oooh
[17:58:14] <kevglass> someone should definitely steal my nick
[17:58:14] * _Riven steals nick
[17:58:27] <kevglass> and then start attacking JOGL lovers.
[17:58:38] <kevglass> cause as you know, thats all I ever did :)
[17:58:57] <woogley> GO TO JGF ETC
[17:59:10] <woogley> x_x
[17:59:19] <kevglass> I don't think anyone called anyone else buttfuckers
[17:59:21] <kevglass> maybe they should.
[17:59:27] <woogley> i think it would be hilarious
[17:59:31] <woogley> like my Xith intervention
[17:59:37] <woogley> "you guys are fuckin boring.."
[18:00:06] <woogley> i was so tired of them debating how they culled or whatever.
[18:00:09] <kevglass> that was part of the brilliance of Xith wasn't it
[18:00:17] <_Riven> Kev, I seriously registered your nickname, feel free to take it back - at least it is 'safe' now... eh... well...
[18:00:32] <kevglass> heh, fair enough, thanks :)
[18:00:56] <woogley> so when can i play yoretwat
[18:00:59] <woogley> or twitter rpg
[18:01:01] <woogley> or whatever
[18:01:03] <_Riven> you know that the only reason i came back to JGO, was to reregister my account, and then got... like... stuck in the community again
[18:01:04] <kevglass> twitter rpg works now
[18:01:14] <kevglass> yoren (v2) is a while off yet
[18:01:17] <woogley> i think yoretwat has a nice ring to it
[18:01:25] <kevglass> Tales of Yore it's called
[18:01:32] <woogley> oh its not using twitter?
[18:01:33] <kevglass> glorious screenshots abound.
[18:01:36] <woogley> i must be confused.
[18:01:57] <kevglass> http://www.cokeandcode.com/yoren/yoren9.png
[18:02:01] <woogley> _Riven: it's amazing because the community's not that great
[18:02:02] <kevglass> there ya go, revel in it's brilliance
[18:02:12] <woogley> WOW
[18:02:22] <kevglass> told ya so
[18:02:32] <woogley> SOMEONE USED FELLED!
[18:02:34] <woogley> i AM impressed
[18:02:56] * kevglass takes a bow
[18:03:07] * kevglass remembers to add lots of old english into the first quest for woogley :)
[18:03:10] <woogley> why didnt you tell Darrin that update() gives you a delta
[18:03:13] <woogley> dont make that poor chap recreate the wheel
[18:03:18] <_Riven> isn't it... the party *has* expired?
[18:03:20] * _Riven confused
[18:03:31] <woogley> party = plural, technically
[18:03:36] <woogley> in old english or whatever
[18:03:52] <kevglass> it might be has actually
[18:03:53] <_Riven> nah, it's like... the group HAS,. not the group have
[18:03:59] <woogley> kev says it even for music bands
[18:04:09] <woogley> "Muse are great" -- kev
[18:04:14] <kevglass> not really sure, cause they sound quite similar in speech
[18:04:24] <_Riven> it is a common mistake, though (i know this is a lame argument)
[18:04:55] <kevglass> I'll go with has I think.
[18:05:05] <kevglass> easy life (tm)
[18:05:19] <kevglass> need to find a pixel artist at some point
[18:05:25] <kevglass> anyone know where they hang out? :)
[18:05:43] <_Riven> pixelartist.jagaming.org
[18:05:46] <_Riven> pff
[18:05:48] <kevglass> wow
[18:05:52] <woogley> seriously, i wonder if cas' guy is open for jobs
[18:05:59] <_Riven> ofcourse he is
[18:05:59] <kevglass> he's not at the moment
[18:06:02] <kevglass> and also very expensive
[18:06:27] <woogley> he is?
[18:06:33] <_Riven> he publically announced he PMed Notch... and a few days before that, Notch said the was open to some collaborations... 1+1=2
[18:07:04] <_Riven> all rumors.
[18:07:08] <woogley> well if you're a graphic designer, notch is a great investment
[18:07:15] <woogley> he has a nack for completing things
[18:07:31] <_Riven> i am fairly sure he doesn want notch for his tiny pixels
[18:07:31] <kevglass> have you tried minecraft woogley?
[18:07:33] <woogley> gnack? knack? niche.
[18:07:37] <woogley> kev: yes. love it.
[18:07:42] <kevglass> awesome isn't it
[18:07:42] <kevglass> :)
[18:07:49] <woogley> quite fun
[18:07:54] <woogley> i love not having a purpose
[18:07:54] <kevglass> needs save.
[18:07:56] <kevglass> bad.
[18:07:57] <_Riven> i like to techtalk more than the game :)
[18:08:59] <_Riven> i don't have the patience to build some tower block by block
[18:09:38] <woogley> needs scripting
[18:10:08] <_Riven> damn... i have some anonymous inner class, inside an anonymous inner class, and when i call this.getClass().getSimpleName() i get an empty string
[18:10:44] <_Riven> i bet it is somewhere in the spec..
[18:12:14] <woogley> are you a fan of functional languages, by chance?
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[18:12:49] <kevglass> anonymous, it has no name :)
[18:12:52] <kevglass> ironic.
[18:13:36] <woogley> really, kev? http://www.javagaming.org/index.php?action=profile;u=12517
[18:13:57] <kevglass> lol, nope
[18:14:02] <kevglass> you don't need to hunt for me
[18:14:04] <kevglass> I can just tell you
[18:14:17] <woogley> ok
[18:14:24] <_Riven> then we can PM you, as we don speak to you so much...
[18:14:36] <woogley> http://www.javagaming.org/index.php?action=profile;u=12454 <- HAH!
[18:14:38] <woogley> i found him etc.
[18:14:51] <woogley> im just guessing accounts that are online x_x
[18:14:56] <kevglass> yeah, thats the one, wait, no it's not
[18:15:31] <woogley> http://www.javagaming.org/index.php?action=profile;u=12423 <- hm. whether its kev or not, its a weird name.
[18:15:50] <kevglass> nope, keep trying
[18:16:25] <woogley> nah my interest level has sunk below what's required to guess
[18:16:30] <kevglass> damn
[18:16:32] <kevglass> that was fun
[18:16:57] <_Riven> everybody only has posts, so..
[18:17:10] <kevglass> yay, my performance tests have nearly finished
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[18:17:40] <aho> weekend! \:D/
[18:17:50] <kevglass> I hate you.
[18:18:08] <aho> sorreh
[18:18:10] <aho> .)
[18:18:58] <_Riven> peter_nm,dxman2007,yombo,susanbell84 ?
[18:18:59] <rnd9> Can someone tell me how to use the lwjgl with netbeans 6.1? the Netbeans 5.xx Tutorial dont work.
[18:25:30] <_Riven> i think it's very likely yombo, kev
[18:45:44] <_Riven> going home!
[18:45:51] <_Riven> bye fans!
[18:45:57] <_Riven> i know, it's hard for me too!
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[18:47:35] <aho> "bye fans!"... omfg it's like the 80ies all over again :>
[18:50:36] <doohan> lo aho
[18:50:42] <doohan> It rhymes.
[18:51:08] <aho> right...
[18:51:09] <aho> hi .>
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[19:41:29] <locks> this is fucking great
[19:41:31] <locks> http://www.tuaw.com/2009/05/20/mac-os-x-java-security-hole-exposed/
[19:41:33] <locks> we have an old and flawed version (Y)
[19:46:18] <doohan> I have irn-bru and fizzy vimto sweets
[19:46:54] <doohan> Isn't the headline max-os-x-java-security-hole-STILL-exposed
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[20:10:46] * _Notch glares at Notch_
[20:10:53] <_Notch> Seems I forgot you online at work!
[20:13:22] <locks> haha
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[20:21:36] <ako> G1 Google Phone Could End Up the Most Popular Console Ever - http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/20/165214
[20:21:43] <ako> heh :>
[20:22:27] <ako> it's also arm+opengl 1.1 then... and pretty much an android phone
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[20:22:37] <ako> getting java on the wiz looks like a nicer idea every day :>
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[20:25:54] <doohan> ako, how long till it arives?
[20:26:10] <ako> about a month, i guess :/
[20:26:26] <ako> will fiddle around with emulators in the meantime
[20:26:41] <ako> should speed things up a bit
[20:27:17] <doohan> If you get java wokring on it, it should pretty much work the same on the pandora right?
[20:27:32] <doohan> When that finally ships in the year 2099 :P
[20:28:52] <ako> pandora uses gles 2.0 tho (which isnt backwards compatible with 1.1)
[20:29:00] <doohan> ah
[20:29:30] <ako> wiz, android, iphone and zeebo are all arm with gles 1.1
[20:30:06] <ako> (and at least 64mb of ram... which was the target spec for android's dalvik vm)
[20:30:31] <ako> ahm... well, i guess the zeebo also got at least 64mb
[20:30:48] <ako> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/Zeebo.jpg
[20:31:04] <ako> hideous :)
[20:31:35] <ako> 160 MB RAM, 128 MBytes DDR SDRAM + 32Mbyte stacked DDR SDRAM in MSM7201A
[20:31:37] <Scient> dear god :D
[20:31:59] <Mazon> ah, just got my sansa clip 8GB - much improvement over my old 512mb player :)
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[20:35:02] <kappaOne> oh ken replies
[20:35:12] <kappaOne> theres hope for LWJGL :)
[20:35:30] <_Notch> ooh
[20:35:32] <Mazon> fwiw, I think the whole 'trusted certificate' is a can of worms
[20:35:51] <kappaOne> yeh agreed me too
[20:35:57] <_Notch> i agree. Especially with opengl which can do bad things on bad drivers
[20:36:08] <kappaOne> opengl is too dangerous
[20:36:49] <_Notch> however, it's dead sexy from a game dev point of view. ;)
[20:37:00] <Mazon> :p
[20:37:20] <Mazon> I am just waiting for the jogl exploits - (or lwjgl if it were to happen)
[20:38:03] <_Notch> yeah..
[20:38:11] <kappaOne> maybe theres a way to catch an opengl crash
[20:38:11] <kappaOne> and stop it blowing up
[20:38:12] <_Notch> hey, it MIGHT cause drivers to get better.. :D
[20:38:29] <_Notch> not the ones that are buffer overflows in the driver..
[20:40:18] <doohan> hey notch any updates to minecraft?
[20:41:01] * kappaOne notices the 2 days remaining message hasn't changed to 1 day remaining :)
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[20:41:32] <aho> <kappaOne> theres hope for LWJGL :)
[20:41:34] <aho> \o/
[20:42:41] <kappaOne> yeh don't mean that its doomed without the certificate, just that it'd be better with it, if jogl has it :)
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[20:43:45] <kevglass> yo
[20:43:58] <aho> yo
[20:44:12] <kappaOne> they're have to be a whole lot of changes to lwjgl if it does get one though
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[20:44:19] <kevglass> ?
[20:44:41] <kappaOne> a magic certificate
[20:45:07] <kevglass> ah
[20:45:10] <kevglass> dodgy idea
[20:45:17] <kevglass> be better if we can get the jogl cert withdrawn
[20:45:25] <kevglass> and the security dialog sorted to not be scary
[20:45:36] <Mazon> yup
[20:45:54] <Mazon> the dialog in its essence is a GOOD thing - it just needs to not scare people away
[20:45:55] <kappaOne> hehe, are you suggesting we write a opengl shader based jogl virus and release it to the black market?
[20:46:09] <kevglass> is there some chance jogl certs will be used for lwjgl?
[20:46:18] <kappaOne> yeh ken replied
[20:46:21] <kevglass> ah,
[20:46:24] * kevglass goes to check
[20:46:57] <kevglass> oh
[20:52:36] * Mazon hates filler episodes
[20:53:34] <_Notch> good reply
[20:54:51] <aho> i'd say the worst filler ever is still bleach's infamous "cake" episode
[20:55:01] <aho> the worst. really.
[20:55:18] <kappaOne> the worst was probably the 1 year+ of naruto fillers :)
[20:55:24] <aho> even less entertaining than pokemon (yea, that super lame show) :>
[20:55:37] <Mazon> well I was talking SG-1 :)
[20:55:37] <aho> the cake ep tops it all
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[21:25:05] * kevglass parps
[21:25:36] <kappaOne> !dict parp
[21:25:37] <lwjglbot> kappaOne: No definition for "parp" could be found.
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[21:59:18] <NoobFukaure> it would be cool if LWJGL got signed by sun
[21:59:28] <NoobFukaure> from a usability standpoint anway
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[22:16:40] <_Riven> kappaOne
[22:16:58] <_Riven> I think I know what b0rks youe codebase
[22:17:07] <_Riven> in your LWJGL applet
[22:17:18] <kappaOne> ah? plz continue?
[22:17:28] <_Riven> they replace the AppletStub with their own
[22:17:49] <_Riven> and IIRC, gapplet.getCodeBase redirects to stub.getCodebase
[22:18:08] <_Riven> so the dropin replacement of your AppletStub, must return the right value
[22:18:32] <_Riven> however, this is all an idea, i haven't been browsing code
[22:18:44] <_Riven> so you might want to verify, and give it a whirl
[22:18:49] <kappaOne> hmm think i know where the issue is
[22:19:03] <kappaOne> but just rather odd to fix it
[22:19:10] <kappaOne> not sure theres a workable solution yet
[22:19:44] <_Riven> let me browse the java applet file a bit, to verify whether it has to do with the AppletStub
[22:19:44] <kappaOne> its this method in URLClassLoader http://rafb.net/p/fa2yYi47.html
[22:20:06] <kappaOne> since the jars that are added are added as a file
[22:20:11] <_Riven> public URL getCodeBase() { return stub.getCodeBase(); }
[22:20:13] <kappaOne> so the host bit isnt' added
[22:20:38] <_Riven> the stuib is replaced by LWQJGL, so the replacement, should return the proper codebase there
[22:20:53] <kappaOne> the codebase that is returned is correct
[22:20:54] <_Riven> i think the problems have nothing to do with the added JARs..
[22:20:59] <_Riven> oh?
[22:21:08] <_Riven> then you can ignore all opf the above
[22:21:19] <kappaOne> yeh the getCodeBase() value is returned correctly
[22:21:30] <kappaOne> its just that the SocketPermission isn't added
[22:21:36] <kappaOne> to all access to the host
[22:21:59] <kappaOne> *allow
[22:22:17] <_Riven> shouldn't be too hard to add? are you are in signed code anyway
[22:22:24] <kappaOne> yes
[22:22:34] <kappaOne> in the AppletLoader when the jars are added
[22:22:53] <kappaOne> pretty tricky since i can't create a new URLClassLoader
[22:22:54] <_Riven> so the problem is... solved, then?
[22:23:01] <kappaOne> no
[22:23:13] <kappaOne> the current one has to hacked some how
[22:23:27] <_Riven> can you show me some code, so that i have a better picture of what exactly is problematic?
[22:24:16] <kappaOne> http://rafb.net/p/Bguvpl52.html
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[22:24:29] <kappaOne> this is how the applet loader adds jars dynamically at runtime to classpath
[22:24:46] <_Riven> yeah, i saw that code yesterday
[22:24:55] <kappaOne> the problem the jars are downloaded to the local host
[22:25:08] <_Riven> yeah, we talked about that yesterday :)
[22:25:28] <kappaOne> so when they are added the URLClassLoader http://rafb.net/p/fa2yYi47.html does not added the
[22:25:44] <kappaOne> *add the SocketPermisssion
[22:26:01] <kappaOne> so they can't talk to the host where they were downloaded from
[22:27:39] <kappaOne> now another way to added jars to the classpath dynamically which works is this http://rafb.net/p/aUnkk110.html
[22:28:19] <kappaOne> but the problem with that way is that Signed Jars are not give the permissions (AllPermission) they should have
[22:29:11] <kappaOne> so need a way to keep the current way of loading jars dynamically but somehow also give them permission to access the host server
[22:30:27] <_Riven> so when you add AllPermission i the LWJGLApplet, you get it working?
[22:30:31] <_Riven> i = in
[22:30:39] <kappaOne> yes
[22:30:48] <kappaOne> but that also gives unsigned jars full permissions
[22:30:52] <_Riven> yup
[22:31:05] <kappaOne> can't have that right?
[22:31:16] <_Riven> but why isn'ty adding the SocketPermission, insteadof of the AllPermission enough?
[22:31:17] <doohan> I'd like that.
[22:32:36] <kappaOne> SocketPermission only gives it that, so if there was a signed jar with unsigned jars (like the lwjgl.jar) which needs AllPermission then it doesn't get it
[22:34:29] <kappaOne> been looking at the SecurityManager and AccessControlContext to see if theres a way to slip in that extra permission, but code seems pretty tight
[22:34:46] <kappaOne> not really any way to do that (i think)
[22:35:20] <_Riven> it should be pretty tight, and it's mostly *final* classes, so you can't extend/override behaiour
[22:35:26] <_Riven> behaviour*
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[22:41:14] <pstickne> final is the evils.
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[22:42:32] <kappaOne> hmm it is possible to get the SecurityManager
[22:42:37] <_Riven> finally found the SVN source of LWJGLApplet loader :)
[22:43:05] <kappaOne> but is their a way to overide/extend a method using reflections?
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[22:43:19] <_Riven> nope
[22:43:20] <kappaOne> that way we can just extend the checkConnect()
[22:43:23] <kappaOne> in securitymanager
[22:43:40] <_Riven> you have to replace the SecurityManager instance
[22:43:48] <_Riven> which is not that hard, anyway
[22:44:02] <kappaOne> yeh you can System.setSecurityManager()
[22:44:25] <kappaOne> but bit hard if you create a new SecurityManager since you'll loose all the settings
[22:44:28] <kappaOne> of the current one
[22:44:47] <_Riven> probably not, just so System.getClass.getDeclaredField("security") => drag the Security manager, wrap it, extends its behaviour
[22:45:00] <_Riven> no, just pass the current as a parameter in your custom one
[22:45:52] <kappaOne> also note can't make AppletLoader too big :)
[22:46:00] <_Riven> for most calls, just redirect to the original SM... public void checkXYZ(XYZPermission) { backing.checkXYZ(p); }
[22:46:00] <kappaOne> preferably should remain one class
[22:46:19] <_Riven> non-public class, or innerclass
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[22:47:32] <kappaOne> its the size that makes the appletloader nice, load a small jar to quickly start the applet then it'll handle the rest of the deployment :)
[22:47:52] <_Riven> you only have to override 2 methods: checkPermission and checkConnect !
[22:48:10] <kappaOne> just checkConnect i thought would be enough
[22:48:14] <_Riven> because all checXYZ methods call checkPermission
[22:48:19] <kappaOne> since checkConnect called checkPermission
[22:48:33] <_Riven> no, because you have to pass all checkPermission calls to the original SecurityManager
[22:48:59] <_Riven> we are wrapping the existing one, with a new SM instance
[22:49:12] <_Riven> as you can't modify the iomplementation of a class
[22:49:51] <_Riven> so, 2 methods
[22:53:26] <_Riven> http://rafb.net/p/9EnPMi49.html
[22:53:43] <_Riven> something like that
[22:54:32] <_Riven> you can System.out those Permission instances, to see whether everything happens as it should
[22:57:47] <kappaOne> hmm not using System.getSecurityManager() ?
[22:58:06] <_Riven> hehe, well, i needed that Field anyway ;)
[22:58:14] <kappaOne> :)
[22:58:16] <_Riven> can as well use it twice :p
[23:01:40] <_Riven> tried it? or are you working on... other big things :)
[23:02:17] <kappaOne> just about to try it but crap need to pop out for about 15 mins
[23:02:30] <kappaOne> brb
[23:02:33] <_Riven> oki
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[23:28:01] <kevglass> re
[23:29:56] <_Riven> wb
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[23:42:05] <kappaOne> Riven awesome hack that, seems to work
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[23:44:42] <_Riven> =D
[23:44:58] <_Riven> it might leave a gaping security hole
[23:45:01] <kappaOne> just need to run a few tests on it now to check the sandbox is still there
[23:45:17] <_Riven> just implement checkConnect propperly
[23:45:24] <kappaOne> then fix it up just to allow that one domain
[23:46:08] <_Riven> there is some nasty stuff in the Security manager, basically, some code seems to insidate, that certain methods have to be at certain stack depths
[23:46:25] <_Riven> now the problem with wrapping the SM, is that all those stackdepths are one off
[23:46:26] <kappaOne> tis gotta look good just, just incase the java security team is watching the appletloader code :)
[23:46:30] <jezek2> ehm securitymanager is global... what about loading multiple applets?
[23:46:56] <jezek2> from different hosts / lwjgl versions ;)
[23:47:08] <_Riven> shhh, let's get step 1 working :p
[23:47:09] <jezek2> or are you forcing new java process? :)
[23:47:11] <_Riven> good catch though
[23:47:13] <kappaOne> yeh lwjgl applet should really just use own java process
[23:47:22] <kappaOne> but thats true too
[23:47:45] <jezek2> I think that if golden certificate is used, it should always force any opengl applet in new java vm
[23:47:53] <jezek2> (and even if not used ;)
[23:48:44] <kappaOne> we could edit the AccessControlContext instead
[23:48:57] <kappaOne> which i think might not be global
[23:49:04] <kappaOne> will have to double check that
[23:49:08] <_Riven> i have no experience with it :/
[23:49:53] <kappaOne> System.getSecurityManager().getSecurityContext() :)
[23:50:45] <kappaOne> anyway thx for the help Riven
[23:50:57] <kappaOne> will keep looking incase theres a better option
[23:51:09] <kappaOne> but tis is a pretty good one
[23:51:12] <kappaOne> *this
[23:51:25] <_Riven> javadoc on getSecurityContext specifically mentions checkConnect ;)
[23:51:50] <_Riven> you'll just have to implement checkCOnnect(host, port, Object context)
[23:52:05] <_Riven> and System.out context, to see what it is like ;)
[23:52:25] <_Riven> whether there are some fields you can use to identify
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[23:53:20] <kappaOne> anyway gotta run off and finish some chores, will have to look at it tommorow
[23:53:22] <kappaOne> nn ppl
[23:53:29] <_Riven> have fun!
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   May 20, 2009  
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