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[00:00:04] <dmlloyd> even a huuuuge HashMap will still have good lookup performance
[00:00:04] <Stork> ricky_clarkson: i made my own bot similar to javabot :\
[00:00:04] <Jax> i guess icould juts try throw IOException
[00:00:07] <vinse> Jax: throw new IOException()
[00:00:09] <dmlloyd> that's why you use a hashmap
[00:00:10] <ricky_clarkson> Sou|cutter: I thought the same as you, so I 1. benchmarked it locally 2. asked cheeser.
[00:00:13] <Stork> ~rot13 test
[00:00:13] <javabot> grfg
[00:00:24] <Jax> public static void main(String[] args) throws IOException("no way")
[00:00:26] <ernimril> dmlloyd: searching as in linear search for anything matching...
[00:00:26] <Jax> ok that didn't work :D
[00:00:35] <ernimril> dmlloyd: hash lookup is fast...
[00:00:43] <Stork> ~rot13 v'z tnl!!!
[00:00:43] <javabot> i'm gay!!!
[00:00:43] <vinse> ....
[00:00:50] <vinse> ban
[00:00:51] <Stork> Jax
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[00:00:58] <dmlloyd> what, that was funny :(
[00:01:01] <Stork> read the fucking tutorial before asking for help
[00:01:07] <dmlloyd> oh
[00:01:22] <Stork> god, he's worse then me!
[00:01:27] <Sou|cutter> dmlloyd: depends on the hash I guess.  In most cases that should be true.
[00:01:33] <vinse> Stork: in some ways
[00:01:38] <Sou|cutter> dmlloyd: but really I thought it was the 'searching', not just the lookup
[00:01:59] <ernimril> Sou|cutter: String.hashCode is really good
[00:01:59] <dmlloyd> ah, well searches are better accomodated using a TreeMap
[00:02:05] <dmlloyd> or other ordered index
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[00:02:12] <Jax> well somewhere in the code for Java.io and a bit deeper the readline method is defined with a throws IOException, right Stork ?
[00:02:19] <Sou|cutter> ricky_clarkson: fair enough =) I won't make THAT claim again ;)
[00:02:21] <ernimril> dmlloyd: not for an indexOf or fuzzy match
[00:02:23] <Jax> but i suppose it's defined WITHOUT the s argument (i.e no message)
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[00:02:27] <Jax> there's no way to override that though?
[00:02:36] <ernimril> dmlloyd: not sure what javabot does though...
[00:02:36] <Stork> it's just defined as throws IOException
[00:02:44] <Jax> exactly
[00:02:44] <dmlloyd> ernimril: then it's all about how you build the index... interval trees, keywords, etc
[00:02:54] <Jax> but here i see it's possible to associate a message with the Exception
[00:02:55] <vinse> Jax: YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT
[00:02:56] <Stork> ~tell Jax about exceptions (again)
[00:02:56] <javabot> Jax, I guess the factoid 'generic exceptions' might be appropriate:
[00:02:58] <javabot> Jax, generic exceptions is "beware the dangers of generic exceptions": http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-10-2003/jw-1003-generics.html
[00:03:03] <Stork> erm
[00:03:06] <Stork> ~tell Jax about exceptions
[00:03:06] <javabot> Jax, exceptions is http://java.sun.com/tutorial/essential/exceptions
[00:03:07] <vinse> jax: you're so far off , it's not even possible to argue it with you
[00:03:18] * Jax looks for a dark cave
[00:03:31] <vinse> Jax: read a tutorial or you'll get nothing but abuse in here
[00:03:38] <Jax> Constructs an IOException with the specified detail message. The error message string s can later be retrieved by the Throwable.getMessage() method of class java.lang.Throwable
[00:03:38] <Stork> get the hell away from my cave, boy
[00:03:40] <Jax> is all i read ;)
[00:04:04] <ricky_clarkson> Jax: Sorry, I'm stupid.  What's your question?
[00:04:18] * ricky_clarkson considers teh ignore teh Stork.
[00:04:25] <vinse> ricky_clarkson: (15:02:29) Jax: public static void main(String[] args) throws IOException("no way")
[00:04:27] <dmlloyd> Jax: you're confusing "throws" with "throw"
[00:04:29] <Jax> how do i associate an exception message with an exception, so i can recall it and show it to the user if the exception occurs
[00:04:34] <Stork> ~tell Jax about exceptions
[00:04:35] <javabot> Jax, exceptions is http://java.sun.com/tutorial/essential/exceptions
[00:04:52] <ricky_clarkson> Jax: throw new SomeException("The message goes here, dude");
[00:04:59] <dmlloyd> Jax: "throws" is just used on the method signature to say what kinds of exceptions can be thrown
[00:05:08] <dmlloyd> no arguments, just a list of exceptions
[00:05:09] <Jax> or should i ignore the message, and just throw a specific exception per exception and output a system.out.println() in each catch
[00:05:23] <dmlloyd> you're misunderstanding the syntax
[00:05:28] <ricky_clarkson> ~wayttd Jax
[00:05:28] <javabot> Jax, ricky_clarkson wants to know what you are trying to do.
[00:05:41] <Stork> why can't he just read the tutorial :(
[00:05:49] <dmlloyd> he's trying to put a square peg into an electrical outlet
[00:05:55] <Stork> /timer 0 0 /say ~tell jax about exceptions
[00:06:06] <Jax> i'm working on it.. i got like 100 bookmarks... you come to a point where you just have to start reading through a whole page before going to the next bookmark from the tutorial
[00:06:14] <Stork> dmlloyd: i once did that, i used a hammer
[00:06:16] <vinse> dmlloyd: he's trying to put a square peg into an elictral outlet so that he can turn on his gas stove
[00:06:16] <Jax> (collected from this channel...)
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[00:07:24] <ricky_clarkson> Jax: Express your current question.
[00:07:35] <Jax> ok.. so what you are saying is.. don't tinker with the Excpetions that bulit-in classes throw
[00:07:59] <Jax> i.e i can't make readline() throw new IOException("Evil message"); i just gotta live with it, that it only returns the Exception without a message
[00:08:23] <Stork> basically, no
[00:08:27] <Jax> i gotta deal with the message IN the application (try, catch)
[00:08:41] <Jax> i.e generate it there.
[00:08:45] <Stork> the message that readLine throws is internall, you can't change it
[00:08:56] <Jax> yeah that's what i just noticed ;)
[00:09:00] <ricky_clarkson> Jax: You can catch one exception and throw another with the output you want.
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[00:09:03] <Jax> and that was what i was trying to change.. which doesn't really make sense.
[00:10:04] <Jax> Jax-- # Lame ideas
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[00:10:27] <Jax> ~Jax-- # Lame "ideas"
[00:10:49] <Stork> lame ideas are the route to learning
[00:10:52] <Jax> should also install Ant
[00:10:58] <Stork> probably
[00:10:59] <beegor> JBuilder 2006, has anybody tried it?
[00:11:06] <Sou|cutter> nope
[00:11:52] <beegor> Eclipse is better anyway
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[00:12:07] <Sou|cutter> ~start an ide war
[00:12:07] <javabot> Eclipse kicks the living shit out of everything else!
[00:12:15] <Sou|cutter> ~start an ide war
[00:12:15] <javabot> Eclipse kicks the living shit out of Jedit!
[00:12:18] <Sou|cutter> heh
[00:12:22] <beegor> yeah, I like 3.1
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[00:12:56] <beegor> Eclipse 3.1 + MyEclipse 4
[00:12:59] <beegor> kicks ass
[00:13:11] <beegor> UML support and everything
[00:13:18] <ricky_clarkson> I'd like to disagree with that statement by javabot, but I can't.
[00:13:34] <Jax> oh yeah UML.. i need to learn that too
[00:13:51] <beegor> me too :-)
[00:13:51] <Sou|cutter> Jax: don't get caught up in trying to learn everything at once.  it's a step by step process
[00:13:59] <ricky_clarkson> I found that jEdit installed itself to be associated on the right click menu with EVERY file type, and that it's JCompiler plugin gave NullPointerExceptions.
[00:14:05] <jk__> how can i know what can I ask to javabot?
[00:14:15] <ricky_clarkson> ~tell jk__ about factoids
[00:14:15] <javabot> jk__, factoids is The list of my current factoids can be found at http://www.cheeseronline.org/~javabot/ .  Use 'help factoids' for more information.
[00:14:25] <ricky_clarkson> ~source
[00:14:25] <javabot> My subversion repository can be found at http://www.cheeseronline.org/svn/repos/javabot
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[00:14:35] <jk__> thanks
[00:14:37] <Sou|cutter> jk__: I usually make educated guesses in PMs to javabot ... some factoids I've learned
[00:15:09] <ricky_clarkson> jk__: http://www.cheeseronline.org/svn/repos/javabot/docs/SYSTEM_TEST is a good demo too.
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[00:15:55] <Jax> everybody uses SVN these days
[00:16:03] * Jax wonders why he's supposed to 'learn' CVS
[00:16:27] <ricky_clarkson> Learning SVN after CVS is easy, as they're written by the same people.
[00:16:45] <ernimril> Jax: svn is much better than cvs...
[00:16:49] <Honk^away> same for cvs after svn though
[00:17:08] <ricky_clarkson> sf.net uses cvs.
[00:17:22] <ricky_clarkson> ~stats
[00:17:22] <javabot> I have been up for 50 days, have served 4567 messages, and have 2356 factoids.
[00:17:34] <Jax> ~karmasum
[00:17:34] <javabot> Jax, I have no idea what karmasum is.
[00:17:46] <beegor> Jax, why is svn better then cvs?
[00:18:11] <Jax> that's a statement that could have not come form me ;) i never say x is better than y
[00:18:11] <ricky_clarkson> SVN performs better for large projects, because it doesn't have millions of files.
[00:18:14] <ernimril> beegor: "svn st" gives nice info, you can "svn move file1 file2" ...
[00:18:28] <ricky_clarkson> Yeah, CVS is not very refactor-friendly.
[00:18:34] <ernimril> ricky_clarkson: it thrashes disk/filesystem quite good...
[00:18:36] <Jax> this whole refactoring concept...
[00:18:43] <Jax> refactoring is basically just changing classnames eh?
[00:18:52] <ricky_clarkson> Jax: And other stuff.
[00:18:59] <Jax> method names
[00:19:04] <ricky_clarkson> I'm coming to the end of a refactor right now.
[00:19:10] <Jax> why does it happen
[00:19:27] <Jax> doesn't eclipse do that for you? :D
[00:19:30] <ricky_clarkson> I have NetworkComponent, and ComponentHandler, and lots of things had references to ComponentHandlers, and lots of things had references to NetworkComponent.
[00:19:46] <ricky_clarkson> A NetworkComponent and ComponentHandler are 1:1 relationship.
[00:20:01] <Jax> does that mean Merge ?
[00:20:02] <ricky_clarkson> So I decided to stop things from having references to ComponentHandlers.
[00:20:17] <ricky_clarkson> This is a manual refactor, a slow job.
[00:20:20] <Jax> lol nevermind me.. just glanced through a UML specs
[00:20:27] <ricky_clarkson> Not really slow, less than a day.
[00:20:42] <Jax> tomorrow we are starting Programming I course :D
[00:20:46] <ricky_clarkson> I had 376 compile errors earlier today, now down to 102.
[00:20:48] <Jax> introduction to Java
[00:20:55] <Jax> smells like a big project
[00:20:56] <Jax> what you up to?
[00:21:27] <ricky_clarkson> 20k lines last I checked.
[00:21:28] <ricky_clarkson> www.netsim.info
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[00:22:07] <ernimril> ricky_clarkson: wc count?
[00:22:50] <Jax> hm interesting
[00:23:06] <Jax> seems like a LOT of code for that
[00:23:17] <ricky_clarkson> It implements an IP stack.
[00:23:21] <ricky_clarkson> Actually two IP stakcs..
[00:23:22] <Jax> well depends what factors are included
[00:23:41] <ricky_clarkson> The dragging is rather advanced too.
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[00:24:21] <ricky_clarkson> Gah, how do I use wc on a directory?
[00:24:29] <Jax> ls -al | wc -l ?
[00:24:37] <ernimril> wc `find src/ -name \*.java `
[00:25:28] <Jax> ricky_clarkson ah so you can draw your network topology by dragging around things?
[00:25:43] <ricky_clarkson> Yep.
[00:25:50] <Jax> interesting.. kinda like DBDesigner's interface?
[00:25:53] <ricky_clarkson> And set up IP addresses, routes, do pings and traceroutes.
[00:26:16] <Jax> sounds fun ;)
[00:26:42] <Jax> what sounds less fun, is that i got a linear algebra course of the mathematicians in like 8 hours and should get to bed
[00:26:47] <ricky_clarkson> 24804 lines.
[00:26:52] 
[00:26:58] <ricky_clarkson> That's in Netsim only, not the library it depends on.
[00:27:10] <Jax> i'll have to try to do some dragging..
[00:27:12] <ricky_clarkson> Another 6277 in there.
[00:27:13] <Jax> you use Swing ?
[00:27:17] <ernimril> ricky_clarkson: my proxy is 16612
[00:27:18] <ricky_clarkson> Yep.
[00:27:33] <ricky_clarkson> I don't use javax.dnd though.
[00:27:34] <Jax> i checked out swing today.. seems pretty cool - quite easy
[00:27:40] <dmlloyd> my proxy is 1337
[00:27:45] <ricky_clarkson> Mainly because I didn't know it existed when I started.
[00:27:46] <ernimril> swing and ui usually gives lots of line though...
[00:27:51] <pr3d4t0r> ::yawn::
[00:27:54] <Jax> i don't know what dnd is
[00:28:00] <ricky_clarkson> Jax: drag and drop.
[00:28:06] <Jax> ah well there we go ;)
[00:28:19] * ricky_clarkson has gone through a bottle of wine now.
[00:28:25] <Jax> what kind of wine?
[00:28:37] <Jax> i sell wine :D www.evino.ch (beware.. flash)
[00:28:49] <ricky_clarkson> VEO, Cabernet Merlot, de Chile.
[00:29:07] <Jax> ah never had wine from Chile i think
[00:29:13] <ricky_clarkson> Usually as long as it's red I'm happy.
[00:29:16] <Jax> also quite seldom in Switzerland ;)
[00:29:24] <ricky_clarkson> Merlot is probably my favourite grape.
[00:29:25] <Jax> we have some good spanish ones ;)
[00:29:45] 
[00:29:52] <Jax> hehe
[00:29:57] <Jax> we have some good vino tinto per te ;)
[00:30:14] <ricky_clarkson> Send me a case 'on trial' and we'll see..
[00:30:36] <mheath> http://pastebin.com/408347   <--- Can someone take a look at that
[00:31:07] <ricky_clarkson> mheath: If it's ok with you, I'll have my pet giraffe examine it.
[00:31:14] <Jax> http://www.evino.ch/traubensorten/merlot.html
[00:31:17] <Jax> ;)
[00:31:48] <mheath> Exception gets thrown when DefaultTableModel.getValueAt(row, column) is called
[00:32:23] * ricky_clarkson invokes roots-.
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[00:34:18] <Jax> ricky_clarkson many people like this one http://www.evino.ch/wein/finca_antigua_tempranillo_2003.html
[00:34:33] <Jax> anyway, i'm off to bed, thanks again everybody.. expecially for tolerating my ignorance!
[00:34:34] <ricky_clarkson> wein?
[00:34:40] <Jax> yeah german ;)
[00:34:49] <ricky_clarkson> Blimey, you should get your web designers spelling lessons.
[00:34:49] <Jax> good nite
[00:34:58] <Jax> i AM the designer hehe
[00:35:05] <ricky_clarkson> That explains it.
[00:35:09] <Jax> i'm mostly a web guy.. that's why i'm so lost here
[00:35:23] <ricky_clarkson> Deutschesprechen ist fur dem foolsen.
[00:35:26] <Jax> eventhough the page-changing mechanism works via a socket server (python + twistedmatrix framework)
[00:35:46] <Jax> just to get the stupid back-button work in flash..
[00:35:48] <Jax> man flash can be the suck
[00:35:51] <Jax> anyway, i need sleep now.
[00:35:52] <Jax> bye bye
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[00:36:15] <ricky_clarkson> Either he was a bit lagged or an insanely fast typerister.
[00:36:30] <doc|home> man, why do people do sites like that in flash?
[00:37:04] <ricky_clarkson> Because applets suck.
[00:37:12] <doc|home> why does he even need an applet?
[00:39:27] <ricky_clarkson> s/he/anyone/
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[00:45:58] <rukuartic> 'lo All.
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[00:54:12] <rukuartic> Can anyone explain to me what an interface is?
[00:54:42] <dmlloyd> an interface is the thin like that divides java from hell
[00:54:51] <rukuartic> haha
[00:55:08] <rukuartic> well... I just don't quite get the whole concept of abstract methods
[00:55:11] <dmlloyd> basically it is a way to refer to an object based on what it does, rather than what it is
[00:55:15] <ricky_clarkson> ~interface
[00:55:16] <javabot> ricky_clarkson, interface is http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/java/interpack/createinterface.html
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[00:56:34] <dmlloyd> really, what an object does is almost always more important that what it is
[00:56:46] <dmlloyd> so any well-designed program will make very extensive use of interfaces
[00:57:44] <rukuartic> thanks ricky_clarkson, dmlloyd
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[01:04:30] <ricky_clarkson> Guten moregen, Honk.
[01:04:44] <Honk> :}
[01:05:01] <Honk> that was just a crash, not a nap =)
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[01:11:17] <cyclone> Perl makes me cry.
[01:13:17] <Kallistor> :>
[01:13:42] <cheeser> ay, my feet.
[01:14:46] <cyclone> cheeser: Your feet make me cry. ;)
[01:14:47] <cyclone> j/k
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[01:16:30] <rukuartic|afk> O_o;
[01:16:46] <rukuartic|afk> I'm getting like... the worst mental image of stinky rotten feet.
[01:16:50] <rukuartic|afk> Eww. And I just ate my dinner.
[01:17:59] <cheeser> cyclone: they're making me cry...
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[01:18:07] <cheeser> i'm not used to so much walking around.
[01:18:08] <cyclone> hehe
[01:18:17] <cyclone> Why so much walking around today?
[01:18:29] <cheeser> looking for bars to hit tonight.  8^)=
[01:18:43] <cyclone> aahhh haha That is awesome :)
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[01:26:26] <rukuartic> So why is "int" an abstraction for integers? Because it doesn't encompass everything?
[01:26:44] <cheeser> it's not an abstraction for anything.
[01:27:17] <The_Vulture> rukuartic: sounds like a poorly phrased homework question and/or a waste of time
[01:27:18] <teralaser> isnt it the other way around ? integer is the abstraction for the implementation int ?
[01:27:52] <cheeser> nope
[01:28:02] <teralaser> what?
[01:28:15] <cheeser> neither is an abstraction for the other.
[01:28:18] <teralaser> oh, whatever.
[01:28:31] <teralaser> Sure, in the Socrates sense.
[01:28:44] <rukuartic> The_Vulture: lol... want to hear a poorly phrased question?
[01:28:50] * cheeser orders a round of hemlock for everyone.
[01:29:14] <rukuartic> "Given the following code the removeEntry method."
[01:29:14] <rukuartic> "Given the following code for the loadDate method loop should not store null values."
[01:29:17] <The_Vulture> rukuartic: I've just heard two of them. :)
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[01:29:26] <rukuartic> haha... owned.
[01:29:43] * The_Vulture throws a demonic squirrel at cheeser
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[01:29:51] <rukuartic> What exactly is an abstraction?
[01:29:59] <dmlloyd> it's a bit abstract
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[01:30:38] <rukuartic> x-x;;;
[01:30:48] * rukuartic stops being lazy and busts out his book.
[01:30:56] <dmlloyd> atta boy
[01:31:09] * cheeser faints.
[01:31:21] * synic takes cheeser's wallet while he's passed out
[01:31:22] <ernimril> there is a first for everything it seems
[01:32:00] <shyfx> dmlloyd: an abstraction is something that doesnt quite exist but possesses some use
[01:32:09] <shyfx> well more functionality in programming
[01:32:45] <shyfx> from dictionary.reference.com "Considered apart from concrete existence: an abstract concept."
[01:33:14] <dmlloyd> thanks for that
[01:33:52] <shyfx> so you would use an abstract class when you wanted to provide some functionality for your inheriting classes without the chance of the "abstract concept" being created as an object
[01:34:34] <shyfx> and since the abstract concept does define functionality for the real implementors, it too can choose to implement some methods and leave others to be implemented
[01:34:56] <shyfx> the only example in the java api i can think of is AbstractListModel
[01:35:08] <shyfx> check that out if you want a real world example
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[01:40:19] <vinse> so when you're designing an application like eclipse, does it ever occur to you that things like ctrl+shift+m to add an import are only useful if they take less time than typing in the import?
[01:40:40] <vinse> or is the general philosophy "all features are good, no matter how long they hang the app" ?
[01:41:40] <vinse> is this simply indicative of the lack of quality control from decentralized, open source projects?
[01:41:51] <vinse> or is some one on the eclipse dev team out to get me personally?
[01:41:57] <The_Vulture> vinse: probably does occur to people - but so long as it doesn't get in your way when you don't want it there shouldn't be too much of a problem
[01:42:12] <The_Vulture> I assume ctrl-shift-m adds an import when your cursor is over a type that needs an import?
[01:42:25] <vinse> The_Vulture: yeah, but i dont advise trying it
[01:42:33] <vinse> unless like you're about to go the bathroom anyway
[01:42:35] <The_Vulture> Seems it's pretty much always going to be faster than moving to the top of the file and typing "import ..."
[01:42:48] <vinse> The_Vulture: you'd think that wouldnt you
[01:43:28] <The_Vulture> I was thinking more of the time taken to do the action, not the response time of the application - yes, if takes too long to execute then it might render itself useless.
[01:43:33] <The_Vulture> *shrugs* I use ViM anyway
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[01:44:40] <vinse> The_Vulture: i'm being forced to use eclipse
[01:44:50] <vinse> can you tell i'm bitter?
[01:44:54] <vinse> it doesnt show does it?
[01:45:11] <znoG> whats wrong with eclipse?
[01:45:24] <vinse> znoG: it's to freaking slow
[01:45:26] <vinse> s/to/too
[01:45:40] <znoG> you have a slow system?
[01:45:43] <znoG> works fine here
[01:45:44] <vinse> nope
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[01:45:52] <znoG> try #eclipse for your complaints
[01:46:01] <vinse> znoG: i would if i wanted help with them
[01:46:05] <vinse> i'm just venting
[01:46:06] <vinse> ;)
[01:46:23] <znoG> i use eclipse for java/php dev, saves me a lotta typing :)
[01:46:57] <vinse> znoG: how large is your project? stuff where it looks things up in the object hierarchy hang it
[01:47:03] <vinse> it becomes totally unresponsive
[01:47:07] <znoG> oh, right, haven't tried that
[01:47:25] <vinse> ok then :)
[01:47:30] <znoG> i've only just started using java, and eclipse
[01:47:38] <znoG> well eclipse i've been using for a couple of months
[01:47:43] <znoG> i just never had any speed issues
[01:47:55] <vinse> yeah, you wont with small projects i guess
[01:48:20] <vinse> like i said, just venting
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[01:50:12] <znoG> vent away :)
[01:50:27] <znoG> i'll join your venting when i need to look things up in the object hierarchy :)
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[01:53:14] <alex777> here's the problem I'm having
[01:53:31] <alex777> I'm using a new library that has tag libs
[01:53:45] <alex777> and when I try to access jsp's that use those tag libs I get:
[01:53:46] <alex777> java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: javax/servlet/jsp/tagext/TagSupport
[01:54:56] <alex777> any idea why it wouldn't find that ?
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[01:55:23] <d03boy> is an array considered to be empty if it contains all null elements?
[01:55:42] <alex777> no
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[01:56:42] <d03boy> alex777, hm.. ok
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[02:00:15] <cheeser> d03boy: it is if you say that's what empty means for your app
[02:01:57] <d03boy> actually referring to the length field
[02:02:48] <alex777> meh, this jsp tag lib still doesn't work :/
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[02:15:34] <Stork> having javabot must be awesome
[02:15:47] <Stork> i made my own mini version, he loves factoids, etc
[02:16:04] <Stork> i can have awesome conversations with him, because i tell him exactly what to say
[02:18:11] <cheeser> javabot: ping
[02:18:11] <javabot> Watch where you're sticking that thing!
[02:18:12] <mohadib> !seen aiyaiyirc
[02:18:14] <Drone> I've never seen aiyaiyirc talk in ##java.
[02:18:56] <mohadib> !seen aiyaiyairc
[02:18:57] <Drone> aiyaiyairc is currently online in ##java and last spoke on Fri 21 Oct 2005 20:18 GMT, saying 'uto25 >> alternative code'.
[02:19:12] <mohadib> aiyaiyairc: ping
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[02:21:21] <ricky_clarkson> Stork: Ever considered therapy?
[02:21:26] <mohadib> heheh
[02:21:33] <Stork> ricky_clarkson: often
[02:21:45] <ricky_clarkson> eidolon: What's monthlybronze, dare I ask?
[02:22:06] <mohadib> guess it means you give a little cash each month?
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[02:22:23] <eidolon> yup.
[02:22:31] <eidolon> i have an auto-payment set up to freenode.
[02:22:38] <mohadib> nice
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[02:23:16] <eidolon> considering i couldn't do 90% of my work without the help of folks on freenode (in various forums), i figured it was worth the contribution.
[02:23:29] <ricky_clarkson> Blimey.
[02:23:35] <mohadib> eidolon: i tried to get my company to kick down
[02:23:38] <alex777> dang it java, find the stupid library already !
[02:23:39] <mohadib> but they are cheap
[02:23:47] <mohadib> they wouldnt buy me the alloy laf either
[02:23:50] <eidolon> *nod* i'm gonna set up one to Wikipedia as well.
[02:23:51] <mohadib> bastards
[02:24:04] <ricky_clarkson> I edit a wikibook.
[02:24:06] <eidolon> IMHO, wikipedia is one of the most fantastic 'open community' projects ever.
[02:24:12] <mohadib> yes
[02:24:15] <mohadib> i agree
[02:24:20] <alex777> why would java not find a library which is in the classpath and/or in WEB-INF\lib ?
[02:24:25] <mohadib> googlebase might be even better
[02:24:31] <cheeser> because it's not where you think it is.
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[02:24:43] <alex777> cheeser it is there
[02:24:46] <alex777> I checked
[02:24:59] <eidolon> we'll see what googlebase ends up being.  dosn't count though.  google is a commercial company that makes its cash on ads.
[02:25:01] <eidolon> wikipedia isn't.
[02:25:09] <mohadib> right
[02:25:10] <alex777> and since I use eclipse, I can see the library in my project being imported
[02:25:21] <ricky_clarkson> alex777: My guess is that you referred to the directory containing a jar file, rather than the jar file directly.
[02:25:30] <alex777> java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: javax/servlet/jsp/tagext/TagSupport
[02:25:35] <alex777> that's the error I get
[02:25:56] <alex777> ricky_clarkson it seems to work with every other library
[02:26:09] <alex777> they are all in my buildpath, including this library
[02:26:26] * eidolon blows away /dev/hda and lets knoppmyth tv tear into it.
[02:26:50] <alex777> and when I import a package from that library, I get no errors or anything like that
[02:26:56] <alex777> in eclipse
[02:27:10] <ricky_clarkson> Can you do this without Eclipse?
[02:27:17] <eidolon> mm.  eclipse.
[02:27:46] <alex777> it's a webapp I'm building, so I'm not sure how to compile it without eclipse
[02:27:53] <mohadib> ant
[02:28:13] <ricky_clarkson> Then you should learn Java.
[02:28:13] <mohadib> or just plain ol javac
[02:28:22] <ricky_clarkson> And ant.
[02:28:45] <alex777> I've looked at building an ant script to build the app, but out of laziness I never did
[02:28:53] <paulweb515_> alex777: eclipse can be a real jerk about classpaths depending on what you're trying to do ...
[02:29:10] <ricky_clarkson> alex777: Bah, false laziness.
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[02:29:25] <alex777> paulweb515_ I'm just trying to get this to work :)
[02:29:28] <paulweb515_> alex777: you might want to ask in #eclipse or even post to one of the eclipse.* newsgroups
[02:29:38] <alex777> will do
[02:29:47] <mohadib> paulweb515_: i find most classpath/jar stuff can e handled in the run dialog or in the project properties
[02:30:05] <mohadib> generally not too big of a deal
[02:30:30] <mheath> Column Index out of range, 0 > 10
[02:30:35] <mheath> what an odd exception
[02:30:42] <mheath> who would have thought? 0 > 10 :P
[02:30:43] <paulweb515_> If they're just java projects, then as long as the build path is set up OK (i.e. eclipse can compile it) then I find the run-launcher stuff is OK
[02:30:48] <alex777> well that's the thing, this library is in the JRE System Library
[02:31:21] <mohadib> ?
[02:31:27] <paulweb515_> mohadib: but once you start creating eclipse plugins that depend on external jar files ... OUCH
[02:31:39] <d03boy> can soemoen remind me of the syntax for that one-line if-statement: something like, condition ? true : false;
[02:31:39] <mohadib> never tried that ;)
[02:31:59] <ricky_clarkson> ~ternary
[02:31:59] <javabot> ricky_clarkson, ternary is http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/java/nutsandbolts/other.html
[02:32:06] <ricky_clarkson> d03boy: ^^
[02:32:12] <d03boy> thanks
[02:32:27] <mohadib> that syntax is horrible imho
[02:32:32] <mohadib> i hate reading it
[02:32:46] <mheath> This error is annoying me
[02:33:01] <mheath> Everything appears to be working perfectly, except..it's not.
[02:33:07] <ricky_clarkson> mheath: What causes it?
[02:33:09] <mohadib> heh
[02:33:19] <mheath> ricky_clarkson: er, not that 0 > 10 error
[02:33:28] <mheath> just this problem
[02:33:32] <mheath> I'm reading from a MySQL database
[02:33:44] <mheath> And I run:
[02:33:56] <mohadib> ~testcase
[02:33:56] <javabot> mohadib, testcase is a minimal independently runnable program, which demonstrates the problem; see http://www.physci.org/codes/sscce.jsp for details and a HOWTO
[02:34:34] <mheath> result = stmt.executeQuery("SELECT * FROM bhstickets ORDER BY year, month, day, time;");
[02:34:52] <mheath> (result being a ResultSet)
[02:35:07] <mheath> By debugging the program, I can tell that that runs fine
[02:35:19] <ricky_clarkson> So what's the error?
[02:35:23] <mohadib> heh
[02:35:29] <mheath> result contains the one row of info it should contain
[02:35:30] <mohadib> allready
[02:35:42] <mohadib> res,next()?
[02:35:45] <Stork> i never learnt how to interact java & mysqll, i'd like to learn
[02:35:58] <mheath> But I use that info to populate a DefaultTableModel
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[02:36:17] <ricky_clarkson> ~tell Stork about jdbc
[02:36:17] <javabot> Stork, jdbc is Java DataBase Connection, the standard java API for communicating with databases using embedded SQL commands. See http://java.sun.com/tutorial/jdbc
[02:36:33] <Stork> i thought just java.aql
[02:36:39] <Stork> java.sql*
[02:37:34] <ricky_clarkson> Great
[02:37:57] <mheath> while (result.next()) { model.addRow(new Object[]{ new INteger(results.getInt("violationid")), (results.getInt("year") + "/" + results.getInt("month") + "/" + results.getInt("day")), new Integer(results.getInt("time")), results.getString("make"), results.getString("license"), results.getString("violationtype"), results.getString("Administrator"), results.getString("decal")});
[02:38:10] <mheath> er, left off one } at the end
[02:38:39] <mheath> and pardon the typos (I was copying from hand by looking at another system + monitor)...its all syntactically correct
[02:38:50] <mheath> The problem is, my DefaultTableModel doesn't seem to actually get populated with anything
[02:39:08] <mheath> As nothing appears in the JTable that it's linked to.
[02:39:32] <mohadib> did you reset the model to the view
[02:39:49] <mohadib> view.setModel(model) or some such
[02:40:24] <mohadib> i dont know if all models send events to the view when chaged
[02:41:05] <mohadib> but , i doubt that is the problem
[02:41:15] <mheath> mohadib: yeah, it does
[02:41:22] <mheath> I can add a line like:
[02:41:55] <mheath> model.addRow(new Object[]{ "test", "test", "test", "test", "test", "test", "test", "test" });
[02:42:01] <mheath> right after that
[02:42:04] <mheath> And the test line shows up
[02:42:56] <mheath> Er, no it doesn't. Sorry, I just realized the problem
[02:43:01] <mheath> I reogranized some code
[02:43:09] * mheath sees the problem now
[02:43:27] <mohadib> resukt.getInt("day") returns and Integer or an int?
[02:43:36] <mohadib> whats the problem?
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[02:44:11] <mheath> mohadib: My GUI is still displaying an old version of the table
[02:44:14] <mheath> I made a stupid mistake
[02:44:29] <mohadib> and you fixed it buy..?
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[02:44:37] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r you here?
[02:45:05] <mohadib> setting uthe view to your current model?
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[02:46:11] <mheath> mohadib: er, in the main sectinon of my program, I had
[02:46:22] <mheath> JScrollPane scrollPane = new JScrollPane(table);
[02:46:33] <mheath> I was changing 'table' elsewhere in the program
[02:46:41] <mheath> by the JScrollPane was still referencing the old version of the table
[02:47:11] <mheath> So, I made JScrollPane scrollPane a global object
[02:47:23] <mohadib> ah
[02:47:31] <mheath> and, whenever I regenerate the table, I just call
[02:47:36] <mheath> scrollPane = new JScrollPane(table);
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[02:48:58] <d03boy> anyone know how to make an entire class deprecated?
[02:50:08] <IMTheNachoMan> anyone here keep logs? pr3d4t0r said something to me a while ago, cant remember when bout googling for some bot or something, started with a B, anyone remember it or maybe have a log and could send me so i could search?
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[02:51:58] <cheeser> a bot for what?
[02:52:27] <paulweb515_> !IMTheNachoMan
[02:52:48] <ricky_clarkson> IMTheNachoMan: bevinbot
[02:53:07] <ricky_clarkson> ~channel logs
[02:53:08] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'how to use dialogs' might be appropriate:
[02:53:10] <javabot> ricky_clarkson, how to use dialogs is http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/uiswing/components/dialog.html
[02:53:14] <ricky_clarkson> Or it might not.
[02:53:23] <IMTheNachoMan> ~bevinbot
[02:53:24] <javabot> IMTheNachoMan, I have no idea what bevinbot is.
[02:53:52] <vinse> ~imthenachoman
[02:53:52] <javabot> vinse, imthenachoman is slava's number one groupie and soon he'll take us all out for sushi.
[02:54:00] <paulweb515_> !seen IMTheNachoMan
[02:54:01] <ricky_clarkson> ~channel logs is http://servlet.uwyn.com/drone/log/bevinbot/%23java
[02:54:02] <javabot> Okay, ricky_clarkson.
[02:54:02] <Drone> IMTheNachoMan is currently online in ##java and last spoke on Fri 28 Oct 2005 00:51 GMT, saying '~bevinbot'.
[02:54:08] <ricky_clarkson> IMTheNachoMan: ^^
[02:54:11] <IMTheNachoMan> paulweb515 sup im here
[02:54:34] <paulweb515_> I was just fooling around with Drone ... he logs some stuff, and can tell when someone was last on
[02:54:39] <ricky_clarkson> !seen IMTheNachoMan making useful
[02:54:41] <Drone> I've never seen imthenachoman making useful talk in ##java.
[02:54:46] <paulweb515_> haha
[02:54:59] <mohadib> ricky_clarkson: heh
[02:55:14] <IMTheNachoMan> !seen ricky_clarkson making useful
[02:55:15] <Drone> I've never seen ricky_clarkson making useful talk in ##java.
[02:55:19] <IMTheNachoMan> oh i see
[02:55:22] <IMTheNachoMan> wait no
[02:55:24] <mohadib> its benn done
[02:55:32] <IMTheNachoMan> !seen IMTheNachoMan hello
[02:55:34] <Drone> I've never seen imthenachoman hello talk in ##java.
[02:55:41] <IMTheNachoMan> ok nevermind
[02:55:47] <mohadib> dork?
[02:55:48] <IMTheNachoMan> just wanted to see what that did
[02:55:50] <mohadib> ;)
[02:55:52] <ricky_clarkson> I see you're sharp tonight.
[02:55:57] <mohadib> hehe
[02:56:06] <IMTheNachoMan> wait so what is bevin bot?
[02:56:15] <IMTheNachoMan> google doesnt really have anything useful
[02:56:18] <mohadib> a bot with a funny name
[02:56:19] <ricky_clarkson> An IRC bot that runs on RIFE.
[02:56:37] <ricky_clarkson> It logs channel activity, stores factoids, and other stuff.
[02:56:56] <mohadib> and has !seen skills
[02:56:58] <ricky_clarkson> Nobody uses it for factoids, because they're /msg only (indicative of channel habits).
[02:57:21] <IMTheNachoMan> ahhh cool
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[02:58:10] <ricky_clarkson> Eek.
[02:58:14] <mohadib> ricky_clarkson: is there a parsable list of factoids that javabot uses?
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[02:59:49] <IMTheNachoMan> heh, im lookin at everything i said since 2000
[02:59:55] <IMTheNachoMan> i mean 1999
[03:00:17] <vinse> maybe you can find out why you were banned for all that time
[03:00:24] <cheeser> haha
[03:00:25] <IMTheNachoMan> ?
[03:00:27] <cheeser> javabot: vinse++
[03:00:28] <javabot> vinse has a karma level of 26, cheeser
[03:00:39] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o ricky_clarkson
[03:00:48] *** ricky_clarkson sets mode: -b faceplant!*@*
[03:00:48] <vinse> IMTheNachoMan: wernt you the one who was banned for a long time? anddidnt know why?
[03:00:52] *** ricky_clarkson sets mode: -o ricky_clarkson
[03:01:18] <IMTheNachoMan> vinse when?
[03:01:21] <vinse> wtf
[03:01:27] <IMTheNachoMan> vinse recently or a few years ago?
[03:01:38] <vinse> did i imagine you coming here the other day withthe name IMTheNachoManAFK? and saying your other nick was banned?
[03:01:44] <vinse> was that all a hallucination?
[03:01:46] <IMTheNachoMan> ahh ok so recently
[03:01:53] <IMTheNachoMan> yeah i know bout that, i figured out why i was banned
[03:01:55] <IMTheNachoMan> aolbionics
[03:01:58] <ricky_clarkson> IMTheNachoMan: You've been coming here longer than I have, and you get banned, and I'm an op.  Nice.
[03:01:58] <vinse> hehe
[03:02:01] <mohadib> hahha
[03:02:25] <mohadib> ricky_clarkson: show off
[03:02:35] <IMTheNachoMan> ricky_clarkson well i stopped coming for a while, and the whole aol bionics thing, he told me before and i stopped, but forgot when i started coming back
[03:02:46] <vinse> "aol bionics"
[03:02:49] <vinse> ^^
[03:02:54] <ricky_clarkson> >>
[03:03:06] <mohadib> VV
[03:03:29] <vinse> seriously my mind is reeling with different "aol bionics" jokes
[03:03:32] <vinse> i cant pick one
[03:03:33] <ricky_clarkson> IMTheNachoMan: You retard?
[03:03:49] <ricky_clarkson> IMTheNachoMan: Sorry, I mean "Are you late for something?".
[03:03:55] <ricky_clarkson> Damn French getting in my way.
[03:04:01] <IMTheNachoMan> ricky_clarkson lets keep this simple, yes i am
[03:04:16] <ricky_clarkson> Seriously?
[03:04:16] <mohadib> late?
[03:04:20] <ricky_clarkson> Some mental illness?
[03:04:22] <mohadib> lolol
[03:04:34] <mohadib> javabot: ricky_clarkson--
[03:04:35] <javabot> ricky_clarkson has a karma level of 102, mohadib
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[03:04:41] <ricky_clarkson> [besides programming]
[03:05:14] <ricky_clarkson> mohadib: Sod off.
[03:05:21] <mohadib> hahah
[03:05:25] <IMTheNachoMan> well, i say no and you will keep asking wtf is wrong with me, which is im a horrible speller and dont bother to become better, but you wont stop at that and you will keep the insults flying so i figure just give in now and say im retarded
[03:05:29] <mohadib> nice , ill have to remeber that one
[03:05:39] <mohadib> i love the way you guys talk
[03:05:46] <vinse> ~IMTheNachoMan++
[03:05:46] <javabot> imthenachoman has a karma level of 2, vinse
[03:05:59] <vinse> IMTheNachoMan: that was the correct response
[03:06:26] <mohadib> ricky_clarkson: i now threatn my GF that im gonna come over drunk and give her a good rogering/buggering
[03:06:38] <IMTheNachoMan> its funny, i started becoming interested in computers because people dont judge you or make fun, yet you guys make me wonder what i was thinking, no offense :-P
[03:06:43] <vinse> IMTheNachoMan: i wasnt making fun of you about "aol bionics", it's pretty clear it was just a typo -- i really do think it was a great phrase
[03:06:45] <IMTheNachoMan> i mean online people
[03:06:56] <vinse> online people are the most vicious around
[03:06:57] <IMTheNachoMan> vinse i know and im just messing
[03:07:03] <ricky_clarkson> ~tell IMTheNachoMan about offence
[03:07:03] <javabot> IMTheNachoMan, offence is don't take offence at things in IRC, none of us exist, we're just lines of text on your screen.
[03:07:06] <vinse> protected as they are by anonymity
[03:07:22] <IMTheNachoMan> i really dont care if you make fun of me, if i can make someone laugh then im happy
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[03:07:32] <ricky_clarkson> vinse: Yeah, I'm really anonymous.
[03:07:32] <mohadib> ricky_clarkson: so what does sod mean in that context?
[03:07:40] <vinse> screw
[03:07:51] <IMTheNachoMan> atleast i know i have brought someone else happiness, and im strong enough to take any crap yall can throw my way so, heh
[03:07:53] <IMTheNachoMan> anyway back to work
[03:07:54] <IMTheNachoMan> peace guys
[03:08:28] <IMTheNachoMan> ricky_clarkson and itht be sptheatin tdoo youz later (and i be speakin to you later) :-P
[03:08:39] <mohadib> ricky_clarkson: stop sodding off and answer me!
[03:08:40] <ricky_clarkson> IMTheNachoMan: I can't wiat.
[03:08:41] <mohadib> ;)
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[03:09:13] <IMTheNachoMan> yall know you count the moments till i return so i can bring some comedy relief to this room, heh
[03:09:13] <IMTheNachoMan> peace
[03:09:20] <mohadib> IMTheNachoMan: fresh
[03:10:59] <ricky_clarkson> Hah.
[03:11:18] <ricky_clarkson> I was looking at Drone's logs and wondering why there was a gap, then I noticed he left and returned.
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[03:12:32] <ricky_clarkson> mohadib: Just so you know, you're on /ignore for me, until I see your signal-to-noise ratio improve (I check occasionally in Drone's logs).
[03:13:13] * cheeser sniggers.
[03:13:37] <mohadib> ricky_clarkson: sorry to have offended you
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[03:15:03] <mohadib> the bit about british teeth was all in good fun
[03:18:20] <ricky_clarkson> It was nothing to do with British teeth, I just got fed up of being drawn into crap discussions (I saw your response in the logs).
[03:18:39] <mohadib> ok...
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[03:29:43] <shredstar> Hello.
[03:29:59] <ricky_clarkson> ~wiki DecoratorPattern
[03:30:00] <javabot> ricky_clarkson, wiki DecoratorPattern is http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DecoratorPattern
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[03:55:49] * Mike_L wanders in
[03:57:08] <Mike_L> I have a question about exceptions: what happens if exception 1 occurs, then the finally clause calls closeFiles() which throws IOException but catches it, returning to the finally clause?
[03:57:46] <Mike_L> is exception 1 lost because of the IOException, even though the IOException occurred outside the scope of the finally clause and was handled?
[03:58:28] <vinse> Mike_L: the IOException is caught in the finally? then it is swallowed, and execution returns to the throwing of exception 1
[03:58:45] <Mike_L> vinse: great.  thanks!
[03:58:56] <vinse> Mike_L: hmm, i wonder what happens if the IOException is not caught though, which exception ends up being thrown?
[03:59:03] <vinse> anyone?
[03:59:15] <Mike_L> then the IOException overwrites the old exception
[03:59:27] <Mike_L> the newest exception is always the one one that gets thrown
[03:59:28] <Talden> The latest is propagated surely.
[03:59:40] <Mike_L> I'm just trying to close my files properly
[03:59:49] <vinse> and all traces of the prior exception are lost?
[03:59:57] <Mike_L> any idea if OS file handles get closed when a FileReader goes out of scope or only when it is garbage collected?
[04:00:22] <The_Vulture> *reads the original question*
[04:00:24] <The_Vulture> that doesn't make sense
[04:00:29] <Talden> Unless logged or stored somewhere... you could do something with it in a catch...
[04:00:40] <The_Vulture> the finally clause cannot be a clause for an exception handler nested _within_ it..
[04:00:48] <Talden> Nothing happens when things 'go out of scope'
[04:00:56] <Mike_L> ok
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[04:01:13] <Mike_L> is there any way to force a garbage collection sweep?
[04:01:23] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: Maybe give a code snippet.
[04:01:28] <ricky_clarkson> And no to that last question.
[04:01:33] <Mike_L> ok
[04:01:39] <ricky_clarkson> But you can suggest one, using System.gc();
[04:02:02] <vinse> (and most of the time, that does actually start one, but there is no guarantee)
[04:02:33] <vinse> and in fact, it will really only work dependably when there's no real strain on resources, and it's therefore not necessary
[04:02:40] <Mike_L> FileReader file = new FileReader("foo"); try { throw MyException(); } finally {  try{file.close();}catch(IOException e){}; }
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[04:03:29] <Mike_L> vinse: so System.gc() is pretty much useless... so I had better make sure my file handles get closed all the time
[04:04:31] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: FileReader is a BadIdea(tm) because you cannot specify the encoding.
[04:05:10] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: I am dealing with only ASCII text for this project, but what would you recommend for other projects?
[04:05:37] * Mike_L wishes JEdit let him specify the encoding in the File Open dialog box
[04:05:40] <ricky_clarkson> For this project too, I would recommend InputStreamReader and FileInputStream together.
[04:06:31] <Talden> When the difference in the amount of code is so tiny - it's best to use the less restrictive approach.
[04:06:45] <ricky_clarkson> Talden: Meaning?
[04:06:46] <gverig> ~javadoc StreamReader
[04:06:47] <javabot> I don't know of any documentation for StreamReader
[04:07:07] <ricky_clarkson> InputStreamReader.
[04:07:12] <Talden> ricky_clarkson - meaning I agree... use the FileInputStream and InputStreamReader.
[04:07:33] <Mike_L> the FileStreamReader docs say: FileInputStream is meant for reading streams of raw bytes such as image data. For reading streams of characters, consider using FileReader.
[04:07:44] <Mike_L> s/FileStreamReader/FileInputStream
[04:07:46] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: I don't care.
[04:08:10] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: FileReader doesn't let you specify the encoding.  It uses the platform's default, which is arbitrary.
[04:08:20] <gverig> ricky_clarkson: Right, I just thought for whatever reason that it's StreamReader and StreamWriter (maybe because Input and Output are redundant in these names). Decided to check
[04:08:35] <ricky_clarkson> Imo it should either gain a constructor for that, or be deprecated.
[04:09:18] <Mike_L> right now I'm using FileReader and BufferedReader.readLine()
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[04:11:38] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: is there a way to use BufferredReader with an InputStream?
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[04:13:57] <keyhack> pr3d4t0r:  :-)
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[04:15:55] <Goosemoose> anyone know if there is a JIT compiler for palm os?
[04:16:02] <Goosemoose> for a j2me program of course
[04:17:20] <Goosemoose> hmm i think im saying that wrong, hold on
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[04:18:49] <gverig> Mike_L: yes, new BufferedReader(new InputStreamReader(istream))
[04:18:59] <Goosemoose> never mind, that is right. i want to compile j2me program into palm native
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[04:20:23] <glick> hi\
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[04:24:57] <Goosemoose> wow this room is never this quiet!
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[04:27:04] <shredstar> StyledDocument sucks.
[04:27:50] <shredstar> When I make my MenuPulldown think go away (mouseup or ESC), the underlying StyledDocument is not repainting.
[04:27:59] <shredstar> Thing, not think.
[04:28:36] <glick> oh god help me im gonna have to start doing some java coding, and disecting the JVM
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[04:28:54] <shredstar> disecting the jvm?
[04:29:53] <glick> shredstar, yeah i gotta write a jvm
[04:30:21] <glick> so i have to research the VM architecture
[04:30:36] <shredstar> org.omg has an interface called SUCCESSFUL. I think all my classes will implement success from now on.
[04:31:08] <shredstar> all of glick's will implement failure.
[04:31:22] <glick> heh
[04:32:38] <shredstar> GridBagConstraints tastes like ass.
[04:33:12] <glick> im ntot a big java fan to begin with
[04:33:24] <shredstar> How much do you weigh?
[04:33:27] <glick> im looking forward to it about as much as a cat looks forward to a bath
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[04:35:19] <cored> hi
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[05:23:19] <Cow_woC> hi
[05:25:19] <Cow_woC> Hibernate question: when would you use a <component> versus a separate entity?
[05:25:23] <Cow_woC> I have entity Image which has an associated resolution, content-type, ImageProvider, etc. Currently they're all entities. I'm unsure if any of them should be <component>s embedded into an Image or which should remain entities. What is the rule?
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[06:01:53] <nmorse> Can anyone here help me with a bug I can't locate in my Java homework?
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[06:05:35] <vinse> my internet is broken :(
[06:06:01] <dibblego> mine isn't
[06:06:07] <dibblego> which internet do you use?
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[06:07:02] <vinse> um i dunno
[06:07:04] <vinse> the good oen
[06:07:11] <dibblego> can't be good - it's broke
[06:07:11] <vinse> s/oen/one
[06:07:17] <vinse> i know :(
[06:07:22] <d03boy> anyone know hwo I can make a file non-readable/writable?
[06:07:28] <vinse> it used to be good and now it sucks
[06:07:28] <d03boy> using the File class or something similar
[06:07:32] <vinse> i blame the republicans
[06:07:42] <dibblego> d03boy: you can't
[06:08:02] <d03boy> that sucks
[06:08:09] <dibblego> not really
[06:08:16] <vinse> every 5th ping attempt or so times out
[06:08:16] <vinse> to every site but google
[06:08:16] <vinse> HLEP!
[06:08:18] <d03boy> it gives me a good reason to throw one of my test cases out though, so im happy about that
[06:08:18] <dibblego> not all platforms have such a concept
[06:08:40] <dibblego> dynamic requirements - love it
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[06:16:27] <IMTheNachoMan> nmorse you still need help?
[06:16:39] <IMTheNachoMan> vinse google took over your internet
[06:16:42] * vinse_ sighs
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[06:17:49] <vinse_> i was gonna work from home too
[06:19:18] <IMTheNachoMan> vinse_ reboot your system
[06:20:11] <IMTheNachoMan> vinse_ that is what the International Business Machine Corporation help desk would say if you called them
[06:21:24] <IMTheNachoMan> why is everyone _dead_, wake up everyone, java is not dull, java does not sleep, java is ALIVE, java is exciting, whos with me? java ROCKS!
[06:21:34] <dibblego> lol
[06:21:50] <delvinj> what are you on and where can i get some?
[06:21:55] <dibblego> I love creating fantasies
[06:21:56] <delvinj> :p
[06:22:02] <cheeser> /mute IMTheNachoMan
[06:22:19] <IMTheNachoMan> cheeser :-(
[06:22:24] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego im high on life
[06:22:39] <dibblego> bipolar?
[06:22:42] <IMTheNachoMan> no
[06:22:46] <cheeser> high on life?!?
[06:22:47] * cheeser gags.
[06:23:00] <IMTheNachoMan> hH
[06:23:03] <IMTheNachoMan> haha
[06:23:03] <vinse_> IMTheNachoMan: me too
[06:23:03] <vinse_> well
[06:23:12] <IMTheNachoMan> naw, im just happy to be alive
[06:23:47] <vinse_> s/life/black tar heroic
[06:23:47] <vinse_> err
[06:23:47] <vinse_> heroin*
[06:23:55] <IMTheNachoMan> cheeser how did you type that /mute thing so it doesnt go as a command rather as a message?
[06:24:03] <cheeser> / /mute
[06:24:11] <cheeser> it's different for each client
[06:24:18] <dibblego> you need to be high on IRC
[06:24:26] <bpalmer> some clients have it as "/say /foo", for example
[06:24:26] <dibblego> otherwise, it won't work
[06:24:33] <IMTheNachoMan> /mute blah
[06:24:35] <IMTheNachoMan> ok thank you
[06:24:44] <Cow_woC> cheeser: hi. Do you have any idea for my <component> vs entity question?
[06:24:59] <cheeser> going downstairs for drinks.
[06:25:12] <cheeser> bbiab.  (though maybe not useful when I return...)
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[06:25:36] <nmorse> I do still need help
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[06:25:58] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego i was once, the fall back down hurt bad, so i enrolled my self in a rehabilitation clinic in the De-IRC class, it took a while, but I have been safely using IRC for 3 years now
[06:25:59] <nmorse> http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-morse/project2.java
[06:26:15] <IMTheNachoMan> cheeser bring me back something please
[06:26:22] <nmorse> For some reason, the nested for loops don't appear to be working.
[06:26:41] <dibblego> nmorse: always use braces, even for single statement blocks
[06:27:03] <dibblego> then insert some System.out.print statements (or better, use a debugger if yu can)
[06:27:28] <dibblego> that's some nasty String concatenation
[06:28:05] <IMTheNachoMan> nmorse and i dont think what your while loop is doing is what you want it to do
[06:28:16] <IMTheNachoMan> nmorse oh nevermind
[06:28:36] <IMTheNachoMan> nmorse and one question
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[06:28:41] <IMTheNachoMan> rightJ is wanting a string
[06:28:44] <IMTheNachoMan> you pass it down an int
[06:28:50] <AngelusMori> aiya!
[06:28:58] <IMTheNachoMan> never tried but can java convert that automatically?
[06:29:18] <nmorse> Since I add the space, it should.
[06:29:27] <nmorse> It automatically typecasts it
[06:29:36] <IMTheNachoMan> does it, didnt know that
[06:29:39] <Garibaldi> to what are you referring?
[06:29:47] <dibblego> no, it doesn't typecast anything like that
[06:29:50] <IMTheNachoMan> http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-morse/project2.java
[06:29:56] <dibblego> you're referring to the overloaded String concatenation operator
[06:29:58] <IMTheNachoMan> im not sure so
[06:30:07] <dibblego> I am sure so
[06:30:12] <IMTheNachoMan> ~pastebin
[06:30:13] <javabot> Paste your code, preferably a test case, any errors, and any other relevant information into the pastebin and tell us the URL: http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin
[06:30:26] <dibblego> sure so am I
[06:30:32] <Drone> View IMTheNachoMan's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8603
[06:30:38] <IMTheNachoMan> there so we can see line numbers
[06:30:46] <bpalmer> am I sure-sewing?
[06:30:55] <IMTheNachoMan> 42, that lien
[06:31:02] <dibblego> sure, so I am sew sure
[06:31:11] <IMTheNachoMan> line, i is an int, function wants a string, dont know what an int + string results in
[06:31:15] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: what about it? we've already identified it
[06:31:17] <bpalmer> egads, liens in this temple? Where is a Messiah when you need one?
[06:31:31] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: the expression evaluates to a String, nothing is "typecasted"
[06:31:49] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego oh im sorry
[06:32:06] <IMTheNachoMan> so 5 + "asdf" = "5asdf"
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[06:32:10] <dibblego> yes
[06:32:13] <IMTheNachoMan> koo
[06:32:31] <bpalmer> (it may seem like a quibble, but it's important if you're thinking about it from the language perspective... type casting means you're "correcting" the type system, whereas the string concatenation involves a conversion)
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[06:33:18] <dibblego> it's only a quibble in a given context; for some, it may the paramount piece of missing information; clarity is key
[06:33:21] <IMTheNachoMan> nmorse what is the output you get?
[06:33:42] <Drone> View nmorse's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8604
[06:34:11] <nmorse> Wow, that's convenient
[06:34:17] <IMTheNachoMan> nmorse s how is that not working?
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[06:34:52] <nmorse> The amortize function shoudl produce different numbers in each column due to the differing number of months
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[06:35:22] <IMTheNachoMan> nmorse oh
[06:35:41] <IMTheNachoMan> nmorse so that method is wrong, not the for loop
[06:35:49] <nmorse> I'm not sure.
[06:35:54] <nmorse> The loop looks perfect
[06:38:41] <nmorse> I appear to have fixed the probably now, actually.
[06:38:57] <nmorse> Something involving my amortize was wrong, so I copied my roommate's function.
[06:39:19] <IMTheNachoMan> thats what i thought, just didnt finish the man
[06:39:20] <IMTheNachoMan> math
[06:39:33] <IMTheNachoMan> im thinkin something cancels out and your only left with something
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[06:40:57] <Garibaldi> you're*
[06:40:59] * vinse cries
[06:42:21] <nmorse> For some reason, he split the function into numerator and denomenator and then returned their value when divided
[06:42:23] * IMTheNachoMan picks up baby vinse and pats his back in an atempt to stop the crying
[06:43:19] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: I think he's crying at your poor spelling skillz.
[06:43:53] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r he is a baby, how would the baby know how to spell
[06:44:00] <dibblego> how much propaganda these days misues the contraction form of "you are"? you can't blame the vulnerable minds; they are mere pawns
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[06:44:21] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego ?
[06:45:00] <pr3d4t0r> dibblego: Well, he's gone from sounding like a retard to sounding slightly illiterate, so that's progress already.
[06:45:00] <nmorse> Yeah, the math was wrong
[06:45:02] <bpalmer> dibblego: beware the pawns in the 8th rank
[06:45:05] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r i actually had a question for you, not really in topic with java (more walmart/econ related) think i could ask you, maye in a private chat or diff channel
[06:45:06] <nmorse> I left a -1 off somewhere.
[06:45:13] <ricky_clarkson> IMTheNachoMan: Your a Winner.
[06:45:17] <nmorse> How that could possibly keep it from reprocessing is beyond me though.
[06:45:19] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: I won't discuss anything about Wal-Mart here.
[06:45:25] <vinse> ricky_clarkson: no u r
[06:45:41] * pr3d4t0r eyes vinse
[06:46:08] <bpalmer> pr3d4t0r: oh, come on, we all want to know whether you go for wal-mart brand generic soda or premium brand
[06:46:12] <IMTheNachoMan> nmorse yeah it looks like something is getting cancled out, my math skills are rusty so its taking me a while to figure out
[06:46:25] <pr3d4t0r> bpalmer: He, he, he... I don't drink sodas ;)
[06:46:28] <nmorse> Anyway, thanks for the help guys.
[06:46:37] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r its more the economics of it, thats why i asked, figured maybe you would let me PM you or ask in another channel
[06:46:38] <nmorse> I'll undoubtedly be back more.
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[06:46:45] <IMTheNachoMan> mabye #walmart
[06:46:56] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: Nah, let's just forget about it.
[06:47:02] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r ok, thanks anyway
[06:47:06] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: Anything you need to know about the company is available on-line.
[06:47:34] <ricky_clarkson> Ok, ok, what's the "Special" meat?
[06:47:37] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r its not like that, its more of a philosophical question
[06:47:48] <IMTheNachoMan> i think
[06:48:02] <IMTheNachoMan> doesnt matter, if you dont wanna talk then EOD
[06:48:46] <IMTheNachoMan> only reason i was askin is cuase i got in a heated debate about walmarts economics and you seem to be like an intelligent guy so i wanted your input, no biggy
[06:48:48] <IMTheNachoMan> maybe some other time
[06:49:01] <IMTheNachoMan> i read 4 chapters in 4 books
[06:49:09] <IMTheNachoMan> on NIO, and still dont get it
[06:49:16] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: I will discuss the economics of almost anything in the world except Wal-Mart's.
[06:49:20] <IMTheNachoMan> from what i do get, it makes a lot of sense
[06:49:26] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: There are better qualified people to talk about that than me.
[06:49:35] <ricky_clarkson> pr3d4t0r: How about ASDA?
[06:49:47] <pr3d4t0r> ricky_clarkson: Who is ASDA?
[06:49:49] <IMTheNachoMan> ~google asda
[06:49:50] <javabot> I'll tell you the results in a private message, IMTheNachoMan
[06:49:57] <ricky_clarkson> Walmart's UK stores.
[06:50:05] <pr3d4t0r> ricky_clarkson: No idea.
[06:50:12] <IMTheNachoMan> oh, haha didnt know that, thats cool
[06:50:29] <IMTheNachoMan> i just came back from walmart
[06:50:38] <ricky_clarkson> Tell those who care: their cafes are crap, but the prepacked sandwiches are great. ;)
[06:50:59] * IMTheNachoMan is hurt
[06:51:21] <bpalmer> ricky_clarkson: pre-packed sandwiches seem way overpriced
[06:51:29] <IMTheNachoMan> ok, well i was trying to find out if anyone knows of any real good NIO tutorials, the java one i read but didnt like
[06:51:29] <bpalmer> I'd rather go to an actual restaurant if I'm paying that amount
[06:51:41] * IMTheNachoMan is sorry for what he may have started
[06:52:01] * pr3d4t0r wonders if IMTheNachoMan is channeling buler.
[06:52:20] <follower> buler...
[06:52:23] <ricky_clarkson> bpalmer: Not too bad at ASDA but in, e.g., Starbucks, prepacked sarnies are overpriced by a lot.
[06:52:23] <IMTheNachoMan> ~google uler
[06:52:24] <javabot> I'll tell you the results in a private message, IMTheNachoMan
[06:52:25] <IMTheNachoMan> ~google buler
[06:52:36] <javabot> I'll tell you the results in a private message, IMTheNachoMan
[06:53:00] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r what does that mean?
[06:53:03] <Mike_L> starbucks is overpriced
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[06:55:37] <IMTheNachoMan> im curious about what pr3d4t0r meant about that 'channeling buler' comment
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[06:58:33] <shredstar> Starbucks is overpriced if you are poor.
[06:59:13] <follower> no, starbucks is expensive if youre poor. it is always overpriced, and if it isnt overpriced, youre stupid
[06:59:52] <pr3d4t0r> follower: Dude?
[07:00:15] <pr3d4t0r> follower: Nobody's calling you names for the lifestyle you chose.  So don't do that with others either.
[07:00:19] <follower> pr3d4t0r: i appologize mr pr3d4t0r
[07:00:29] <pr3d4t0r> follower: Thanks :)
[07:00:36] <follower> but he did start out with calling someone else poor
[07:01:09] * pr3d4t0r eyes shredstar
[07:01:19] <follower> but hey, htmlparser ...
[07:01:20] <shredstar> I am happy I am stupid. I am happy I pay Starbucks for superior service. Enjoy your burnt Denny's coffee, follower.
[07:01:29] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o pr3d4t0r
[07:01:32] *** shredstar was kicked by pr3d4t0r (pr3d4t0r)
[07:01:34] *** ChanServ sets mode: -o pr3d4t0r
[07:01:43] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r do you have a script for that?
[07:02:04] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r so the script ops you, kicks the person, and unops you
[07:02:04] <pr3d4t0r> Dammit you guys are like fucking kindengarden students.  Every day it gets worse in here.
[07:02:09] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: No, I type fast.
[07:02:20] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: Scripts are for pussies.
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[07:02:31] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r: haha i just figured you would to save time?
[07:02:38] <follower> so yeah, i was using regex to parse some stuff from an html page and someone told me to use an html parser, but its looking like a lot more work than the regex
[07:02:45] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: It'd take me longer to type the script than to type that.
[07:02:59] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r what irc client you use? il type it for you
[07:03:05] <follower> pr3d4t0r: you could alias it
[07:03:06] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: irssi.
[07:03:12] <pr3d4t0r> follower: Yeah, I could.
[07:03:18] <pr3d4t0r> follower: But as I said, I type fast enough.
[07:03:23] <follower> true that
[07:03:25] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r just say the word and il get right on it
[07:03:27] <pr3d4t0r> follower: I type faster than my former secretary.
[07:03:38] <follower> i type fast as long as its in lowercase =P
[07:03:51] <pr3d4t0r> follower: You need more practice then.
[07:03:58] <pr3d4t0r> follower: Typing is a beautiful skill :)
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[07:04:03] <pr3d4t0r> follower: Having a good keyboard helps.
[07:04:03] <IMTheNachoMan> my coworkers tell me to type slower, they think i am not actually typing anything real
[07:04:11] <follower> i wait tables =P
[07:04:14] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: I agree with them.
[07:04:15] <Ginsu_Squirrel> whats the easieat way to convert a byte  to a char?
[07:04:18] <IMTheNachoMan> anyone ever used a dvork keyboard
[07:04:29] <pr3d4t0r> Ginsu_Squirrel: char c = (char) byX;
[07:04:29] <dibblego> final char c = b;
[07:04:41] <Ginsu_Squirrel> you can just cast it and it works like that?
[07:04:42] <Ginsu_Squirrel> craazy
[07:04:49] <dibblego> no, there is no need for a cast
[07:05:07] <Ginsu_Squirrel> it says can't convedrt from byte to char
[07:05:14] <pr3d4t0r> Ginsu_Squirrel: So cast it.
[07:05:23] <follower> lol
[07:05:30] <Ginsu_Squirrel> well that was easy, and here i was going thru Byte object and Character object lookin for stuff
[07:05:37] * pr3d4t0r smacks Ginsu_Squirrel
[07:05:47] <pr3d4t0r> Ginsu_Squirrel: Byte and byte are not the same thing.
[07:06:01] <dibblego> then your byte is not a constant
[07:06:04] <pr3d4t0r> Ginsu_Squirrel: Byte is an object, byte is a primitive.
[07:06:11] <Ginsu_Squirrel> i know
[07:06:15] <dibblego> and so you will require an explicit cast
[07:06:16] <Ginsu_Squirrel> but you can convert between byte and Byte
[07:06:27] <pr3d4t0r> Ginsu_Squirrel: Yeah, more or less.
[07:06:32] <Ginsu_Squirrel> but whatever, the cast works
[07:06:33] <Ginsu_Squirrel> thanks
[07:06:46] <pr3d4t0r> Ginsu_Squirrel: Don't trust Java 5 too much.  It does some really stupid things as a part of its autoboxing conversions.
[07:07:21] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r sorry i was gonna write it, but then i realized i do not know the commands to op yourself, kick somoene, and unop your self
[07:07:29] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: Dude?
[07:07:34] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: Did I ask for a script?
[07:07:41] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: I appreciate the gesture but I'll pass, thanks.
[07:08:00] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: If you code like you spell... that's scary...
[07:08:15] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r well when i asked what client you use so i can write you one and you responded i assumed that meant you did, my bad
[07:08:24] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: No worries, thanks.
[07:08:40] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: For when you become an op:  /msg chanserv op ##java
[07:08:41] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r spell = english = something im bad at, coding = not english = something (least i think i am) good at
[07:08:49] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: /kn whoever
[07:09:04] <IMTheNachoMan> pr3d4t0r thanks
[07:09:10] <pr3d4t0r> IMTheNachoMan: /msg chanserv op ##java -myNick
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[07:11:37] <puppetier> does netbeans support subversion?
[07:11:46] <IMTheNachoMan> out of curiosity, why is it that chanserv is currently only in ##java and ##swing?
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[07:13:15] <fuel> has anyone tried compiling  azureus source on eclipse/
[07:13:17] <fuel> ?
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[07:13:32] <Ginsu_Squirrel> is it possible to use equality operators in a switch statement?
[07:13:45] <Eclipser> fuel, there's an article of that in azureus wiki
[07:13:48] <Garibaldi> huh?
[07:13:50] <IMTheNachoMan> Ginsu_Squirrel ???
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[07:14:11] <Garibaldi> do you want the type of the swtich to be boolean?
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[07:14:24] <fuel> Eclipser: no i find so many errors on just importing!
[07:14:25] <Eclipser> fuel, http://azureus.aelitis.com/wiki/index.php/Using_Eclipse
[07:14:29] <Garibaldi> switch (a == b) { case true: ...; break;  default: ... } ?
[07:14:41] <Ginsu_Squirrel> no like case < 5
[07:14:43] <Ginsu_Squirrel> or something like that
[07:14:45] <Eclipser> fuel, other than that, try #azureus
[07:14:45] <Garibaldi> no
[07:14:49] <Ginsu_Squirrel> meh, oh well
[07:14:51] <IMTheNachoMan> Ginsu_Squirrel no
[07:14:52] * Ginsu_Squirrel goes back to if
[07:15:06] <IMTheNachoMan> Garibaldi oh im sorry, i did not see you respond, my bad
[07:15:10] <pr3d4t0r> Eclipser: . o O
[07:15:15] <Eclipser> pr3d4t0r, ?
[07:15:18] <pr3d4t0r> Eclipser: Are you an Eclipse guru?
[07:15:21] <Eclipser> no
[07:15:23] <Eclipser> I don't use Eclipse
[07:15:31] <fuel> Eclipser: ;)
[07:15:32] <Garibaldi> if you have some reasonable subset, you could do:  case 0: case 1: case 2: case 3: case 4: case 5: ...; break;
[07:15:38] <pr3d4t0r> Eclipser: We get a lot of questions about Eclipse -- it'd be nice if someone around answered them ;)
[07:15:42] <Garibaldi> but generally, if would be a better choice I think
[07:15:44] <pr3d4t0r> Eclipser: Ah!
[07:15:48] <fuel> Eclipser:  yes u have many!
[07:15:49] <pr3d4t0r> Eclipser: Sorry -- thanks.
[07:15:56] <fuel> Eclipser: sorry i have many!
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[07:15:59] <pr3d4t0r> ~tell fuel about aolbonics
[07:15:59] <javabot> fuel, aolbonics is talking using numbers, or using single letters for you, are, you are, you're, etc. Examples are: Hey evry1; howz it goin?; how r u; ur teh suckz. Talking like this is frowned upon in ##java, and may result in you being silenced. See this for more detail: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20041201
[07:16:08] * pr3d4t0r wants to cry
[07:16:12] <IMTheNachoMan> there is a #eclipse
[07:16:20] <Budward> hi.
[07:16:24] <pr3d4t0r> Budward: Howdy.
[07:16:25] <Eclipser> pr3d4t0r, it's ok :)
[07:16:26] * AngelusMori sighs.
[07:16:34] <Budward> what pr3d4t0r?
[07:16:40] <pr3d4t0r> Budward: Hello.
[07:16:49] <Budward> it's midnight here and I just woke up.
[07:16:50] <Eclipser> I wish to be even decent in java before I try learning Eclipse :p
[07:16:53] <pr3d4t0r> Budward: "Howdy" is a colloquialism meaning "hello".
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[07:17:00] <Budward> I have a ton of homework.. .so i'm brewing coffee.
[07:17:49] <pr3d4t0r> LOL
[07:17:50] <pr3d4t0r> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051027/ap_on_re_us/brf_woman_hanged
[07:18:01] <puppetier> does anyone know if netbeans supports subversion? i've found a place where i can add a subversion profile, but there is no functionality to import/check out, etc
[07:18:02] <Budward> pr3d4t0r yes I am well versed in the english vernacular, including colloquailisms.
[07:18:14] <Budward> :)
[07:18:21] <Eclipser> pr3d4t0r, haa
[07:18:22] <Eclipser> +h
[07:19:02] <IMTheNachoMan> there is a netbeans mailing list
[07:19:14] <fuel> ~azureus
[07:19:14] <javabot> fuel, azureus is the other SWT app.
[07:19:31] <fuel> ~eclipse help?
[07:19:32] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'help factoid retrieve' might be appropriate:
[07:19:34] <javabot> To see (retrieve) a factoid, type ~key, e.g., ~cygwin.
[07:19:38] <fuel> lol
[07:19:52] <Budward> http://www.poordog.net/hw/  who else has attempted a technological conundrum similar to this?
[07:20:31] <fuel> Eclipser: i find no one answering my question! actually what is #azureus for ?
[07:20:41] <Eclipser> patience
[07:20:42] <IMTheNachoMan> Budward yeah the g5 has an awesome cooling system
[07:20:47] <Eclipser> it's a developer channel
[07:20:59] <follower> puppetier: there is a subversion module i believe
[07:21:07] <fuel> javabot: but no one is helping me!...
[07:21:08] <javabot> Okay, fuel.
[07:21:33] <Budward> IMTheNachoMan yes it does, and it is stealth-like as well...
[07:21:56] <IMTheNachoMan> Budward your baby is adorable
[07:22:10] <Budward> I'm trying to keep entire control of my DT but being able to run both boxen simaltaneously on dual displays.
[07:22:17] <Budward> IMTheNachoMan thanks!
[07:22:34] <Budward> SHe is asleep right next to me.
[07:22:58] <IMTheNachoMan> Budward we better stop before people start to eye us
[07:23:29] <Budward> yeahm being that we are both so macho =)
[07:23:54] <IMTheNachoMan> no i dont care, i love kids, but there are enough things people have on me to make fun of, i dont need another
[07:24:01] <IMTheNachoMan> im already the channel joker
[07:24:10] <Budward> haha nice.
[07:24:21] <Budward> brb, coffee time and then Java coding time
[07:24:28] <IMTheNachoMan> and it appears pr3d4t0r's pet too so
[07:24:31] <IMTheNachoMan> and im going to bed, night everyone
[07:24:58] * pr3d4t0r decides to skip the "j00 are my byotch!!!one11!" comments.
[07:26:03] <ernimril> good morning ...
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[07:26:55] <IMTheNachoMan> ernimril good nite
[07:29:09] <pr3d4t0r> ernimril!
[07:29:28] <ernimril> pr3d4t0r: hello, can you read russian?
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[07:36:34] <pr3d4t0r> ernimril: Da.
[07:36:38] <pr3d4t0r> ernimril: Shto khochech?
[07:36:44] <pr3d4t0r> Er, khochesh?
[07:37:27] <ernimril> pr3d4t0r: I do not, but currently I get some hits from a russian site (toms hardware, but russian). Can you check if they say something good?
[07:37:44] <ernimril> pr3d4t0r: last paragraph on http://www.thg.ru/software/20051027/index.html
[07:38:46] <ernimril> pr3d4t0r: my web proxy is called rabbit. A java program that compress web trafic...
[07:39:27] <pr3d4t0r> ernimril: That page is taking forever to load :(
[07:39:42] <ernimril> pr3d4t0r: odd, it is very quick for me, but then I am close to it...
[07:40:21] <pr3d4t0r> ernimril: They're plugging another product.
[07:40:45] <ernimril> pr3d4t0r: that is what I though (and my proxy is for the ISP so it does not matter much)
[07:40:48] <pr3d4t0r> ernimril: In the last paragraph they say that the Java-based Rabbit is also an excellent alternative, plus it's free, runs in Java, and it's multi-platform.
[07:41:00] <ernimril> pr3d4t0r: ah, thank you
[07:41:18] <pr3d4t0r> ernimril: They don't think much of the compression ratios but they think that the portability makes it a winner.
[07:41:54] <pr3d4t0r> ernimril: The page's title is "Security and Quick Internet".
[07:42:13] <fuel> ~frostwire
[07:42:13] <javabot> fuel, I have no idea what frostwire is.
[07:42:16] <ernimril> pr3d4t0r: ah, interesting, they probably want html compressor that removes lots of tags, I mostly just bzip it...
[07:42:23] <ernimril> s/bzip/gzip/
[07:43:33] <d03boy> have you ever czipped?
[07:44:22] <ernimril> d03boy: most web browsers do not support czip (not that I know of anyway)
[07:44:54] <ernimril> d03boy: what is czip?
[07:44:57] <d03boy> haha
[07:44:59] <d03boy> i wihs i knew
[07:45:02] <d03boy> im going to invent it
[07:45:09] <d03boy> or i'll invent zzip so you can just call it "zip"
[07:45:16] <pr3d4t0r> ernimril: I see.
[07:45:24] <pr3d4t0r> d03boy: Web browsers support gzip by default.
[07:45:54] <d03boy> i'm really disoriented, pay no attention to me
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[07:51:04] <Fossi> morning
[07:52:25] <Fossi> dumb swing question: how can i make a jlabel desplay it's text verticaly?
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[07:54:48] <pr3d4t0r> Good night, gang.  Have to drive to Los Angeles in a few hours.
[07:54:53] <pr3d4t0r> Cheers.
[07:54:58] <d03boy> cheers
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[07:56:14] <d03boy> i want to implement serializable in my Contact class
[07:56:29] <d03boy> and then in my AddressBook class I want to read in an Object file using an ObjectInputStream
[07:56:41] <d03boy> but i'm not sure what stream I need to "pipe" into that obj. in stream
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[08:03:04] <fuel> why is the sdk size for windows much larger than the one for linux?
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[08:03:54] <dibblego> because "windows".compareTo("linux") > 0 evaluates to true
[08:03:56] <d03boy> is the linux one precompiled?
[08:04:18] <fuel> dibblego: cant get you
[08:04:47] <cybereal> fuel: how much bigger is it?
[08:09:26] <fuel> cybereal: 51 for windows and 42 for linux
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[08:12:01] <d03boy> can anyone tell me how I can know when there are no more objects to be read with an object input stream
[08:12:09] <cybereal> fuel: probably just some libraries for GUI or Socket stuff that is already built into linux.  Keep in mind that Sun developed java on Solaris and Linux is more similar... windows also has a sever lack of intelligent APIs so my guess is that standard linux installs already have whatever is missing in the installer.
[08:12:11] <dibblego> someone probably can
[08:12:17] <dibblego> but they'd just be reiterating from the spec.
[08:12:21] <dibblego> which you can read yourself
[08:12:53] <fuel> cybereal: so developing java stuff on linux is more portable than on windows?
[08:13:19] <dibblego> fuel: no; there is no such concept as "developing Java stuff for Linux"
[08:13:19] <cybereal> fuel: troll someone else
[08:13:59] <fuel> cybereal: what do you mean by trolling? i dont know and i am asking!
[08:17:04] <Eclipser> I think his questions were perfectly valid :)
[08:17:26] <cybereal> Eclipser: feel free to answer him then
[08:17:35] <Eclipser> too busy at work :p
[08:17:48] <cybereal> Then stuff it? :)
[08:18:04] <IMTheNachoMan> fuel what are you asking?
[08:19:01] <fuel> IMTheNachoMan:  just asking why the sdk for windows and linux are of different size
[08:19:14] <IMTheNachoMan> windows has more over head
[08:19:34] <fuel> cyberreal: if you find questions silly better not answer.... dont insult people
[08:19:37] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan is full of useful information
[08:19:55] <IMTheNachoMan> windows also hides certain methods/functions/libraries, so java has to re-impliment some of those, where has linux, well alls fair game
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[08:20:17] <dibblego> see!?
[08:20:24] <fuel> IMTheNachoMan: right
[08:20:48] <dibblego> fuel: for your own interests, that is not right
[08:21:00] <fuel> dibblego:  ?
[08:21:11] <IMTheNachoMan> also i think java for windows is also a little more optimized
[08:21:22] <d03boy> javabot: big list
[08:21:23] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'how to use listeners' might be appropriate:
[08:21:25] <javabot> d03boy, how to use listeners is http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/uiswing/events/index.html
[08:21:27] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: please, misleading people is not very nice
[08:21:29] <d03boy> gah, no its not appropriate :(
[08:21:42] <cybereal> ~really
[08:21:43] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'really big index' might be appropriate:
[08:21:45] <javabot> cybereal, really big index is http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/reallybigindex.html
[08:21:46] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego this is what i was told in my class
[08:21:49] <d03boy> there we go
[08:21:55] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego so if i am wrong, i appologize
[08:21:57] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: precisely, academics are horribly misled souls
[08:22:11] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego lol, dont tell me that, i just finished paying an ass load for it
[08:22:25] <dibblego> for what exactly?
[08:22:29] <IMTheNachoMan> college
[08:22:40] <dibblego> I say it my students; you're there to obtain a piece of paper, not learn; do't obscure your objectives
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[08:22:55] <dibblego> it has a very low ROI (invest time) for learning
[08:23:11] <dibblego> academics know bugger all
[08:23:17] <dibblego> I spend most my time unteaching my students
[08:23:26] <dibblego> mainly because they're curious
[08:23:38] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego then do you know the correct answer?
[08:23:39] <IMTheNachoMan> anyone here tried JDS? or know about it?
[08:23:51] <fuel> ~JDS
[08:23:51] <javabot> fuel, JDS is Java Desktop System, a distro, by sun, look for it at http://www.sun.com/software/javadesktopsystem/
[08:24:01] <dibblego> I can certainly speculate on an informed basis, but I won't
[08:24:12] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego please?
[08:24:16] <dibblego> speculation is easily taken out of context
[08:24:32] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego PM me please? i really would like to konw
[08:24:40] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego let me rephrase, i would like to know what you think
[08:24:46] <dibblego> I would too; like I said, I can only speculate
[08:24:56] <dibblego> I'll invest time pursuing a true answer when it's worth it
[08:24:57] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego you would like to know what you think?
[08:25:04] <dibblego> I have the resources available
[08:25:17] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego not to sound rude, you your self dont know the answer, yet say mine is wrong?
[08:25:24] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego just curious
[08:25:29] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: yes, that I do know
[08:26:10] <dibblego> there is no such thing as optimised "java on windows"; Java itself is abstracted from the native platform
[08:26:11] <d03boy> does anyone konw how to tell wheN I should stop reading in a serialized object with ObjectInputStream. I cant find anything directly relating to an answer.
[08:26:21] <dibblego> if you're referring to an implementation, they are all "optimised"
[08:26:31] <dibblego> ~tell d03boy about javadoc ObjectInputStream
[08:26:31] <javabot> d03boy, please see java.io.ObjectInputStream: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/io/ObjectInputStream.html
[08:26:39] <d03boy> dibblego, i read the entire page on it
[08:27:14] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego i dont think i said what i wanted to say correctly, there was some misunderstanding on what i said
[08:27:17] <d03boy> and the section from the really big index
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[08:27:42] <dibblego> d03boy: readObject will return null
[08:27:48] <d03boy> ok
[08:27:52] <suir> i had installed jre2 in fedora core2 box
[08:27:55] <dibblego> maybe
[08:28:02] <dibblego> I'm just guessing, since the spec. is fucking crap
[08:28:12] <dibblego> you could always query the underlying stream
[08:28:13] <suir> how to find whether jdbc driver installed for fedora core2
[08:28:31] <d03boy> i'll look into it a little more. I wasnt sure if i was just missing something in the spec or not
[08:28:31] <dibblego> suir: JDBC drivers are for databases, not operating systems
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[08:29:04] <suir> dibblego, yes right i need to locate the jdbc driver for my database tool which i am using\
[08:29:13] <dibblego> suir: which is?
[08:29:15] <The_Vulture> suir: lovely..
[08:29:59] <suir> dibblego,sorry  i am using espressreport tool
[08:30:06] <suir> not database tool
[08:30:34] <dibblego> so why do you need JDBC?
[08:30:35] <IMTheNachoMan> the way i see it, eventually the jre has to interface with the os its on be it linux or windows, interfacing to linux is much simplier all the libraries are public, not true in windows, so the jre has to do a bit more, hence more code, hence larger file
[08:30:56] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: define: "linux is much simplier all the libraries are public, not true in windows"
[08:30:58] <suir> dibblego, to connect to database
[08:31:00] <The_Vulture> IMTheNachoMan: err.. the libraries are perfectly public in windows: WinAPI.
[08:31:05] <dibblego> suir: which is?
[08:31:15] <The_Vulture> The interfaces are clearly documented & many people use them every day.
[08:31:25] <suir> dibblego, this report tool acess data from db2 so i need
[08:31:32] <dibblego> suir: so DB2?
[08:31:37] <suir> jdbc driver
[08:31:39] <The_Vulture> suir: so you need a JDBC driver for DB2..
[08:31:46] <dibblego> DB2 ships with two JDBC drivers
[08:31:53] <IMTheNachoMan> im not an expert in this, but from what i remember, to do a simple graphical task, windows requires more code then linux
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[08:31:56] <suir> dibblego, yes
[08:31:58] <dibblego> there is lots of documentation that comes with DB2
[08:32:11] <The_Vulture> IMTheNachoMan: that's vague - and Linux is a kernel with no concept of complex graphical tasks
[08:32:12] <IMTheNachoMan> where has linux supplies libraries and what not to do simple tasks, windows does not
[08:32:17] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: that is false even at the requirement level
[08:32:28] <suir> The_Vulture, yes
[08:32:31] <dibblego> making broad claims about "do a simple graphical task" is pointless
[08:32:35] <IMTheNachoMan> The_Vulture im just using graphical as an example
[08:33:03] <IMTheNachoMan> ok....i do not know enough about the subject matter to continue so i shall put up a white flag
[08:33:15] <dibblego> good idea
[08:33:18] <IMTheNachoMan> pointless to argue is my motto
[08:33:22] <dibblego> not really
[08:33:29] <dibblego> when one party learns something, it's very pointful
[08:33:43] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego thats not arguing, thats teaching
[08:33:48] <The_Vulture> when both parties learn something it might be even better
[08:33:48] <IMTheNachoMan> anyway, now that i finished my mcdonalds monopoly thing i suppose i can goto bed
[08:33:50] <dibblego> no it's not
[08:34:06] <The_Vulture> IMTheNachoMan: Arguments can lead to understanding. As can teaching, and they aren't mutually exclusive
[08:34:07] <dibblego> arguing means arriving at some conclusion where one party turns out to be wrong, and so they heed the opportunity to learn
[08:34:13] <dibblego> losing an argument is always the best
[08:34:15] <The_Vulture> one can teach with arguments
[08:34:18] <dibblego> since you get to learn
[08:34:32] <IMTheNachoMan> a and b argue, a has its point, b has its point, b eventually understands and LEARNS what a meant, hence a taught b
[08:34:35] <AngelusMori> why do i get an IndexOutOfBoundsException there: List foo=any LinkedList... for(int i=0;i<foo.size();i++) { foo.get(i); }
[08:34:36] <dibblego> deriving a truer reality is fun
[08:34:39] <IMTheNachoMan> i suppose
[08:34:58] <The_Vulture> AngelusMori: pastebin the stack trace, line of code, and value of all indecies at that point..
[08:35:02] <IMTheNachoMan> offtopic, anyone here playing the mcdonalds monopoly game, have any pieces?
[08:35:04] <dibblego> egotistic "I'm so fucking good" arguing is pointless, since all you do is stroke egos
[08:35:14] <The_Vulture> AngelusMori: side note: that's a hideous way to iterate through a LinkedList..
[08:35:18] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego i never said that
[08:35:25] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: I know, but I did
[08:35:39] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego i didnt mean it that way, i love to 'argue', just think its pointless to argue in this channel
[08:35:45] <d03boy> dibblego, mind me asking where you teach/
[08:35:47] <IMTheNachoMan> well not pointless waste of time cuase its offtopic
[08:36:00] <dibblego> d03boy: Griffith University, Gold Coast http://www.tmorris.net/cv/
[08:36:08] <The_Vulture> IMTheNachoMan: that'd depend on the argument, and the one you were having earlier was at least vaguely on topic
[08:36:27] <IMTheNachoMan> i remember when i came in here a long time ago and people would be talking bout god knows what and i would get annoyed, so i try not to do that
[08:36:32] <IMTheNachoMan> The_Vulture true
[08:36:34] <AngelusMori> The_Vulture: what's the 'clean' way?
[08:37:02] <The_Vulture> AngelusMori: with an Iterator of course..
[08:37:05] <dibblego> IRC is generally egotistic fucktards proving how little they know; it would be good to automatically filter; use a manual filter until one exists
[08:37:06] <The_Vulture> and you might want to learn about generics too
[08:37:17] <IMTheNachoMan> but i hvae a suspicious feeling if dibblego explained why he thinks its larger in windows then linux it would be the same thing im thinking, il admit im not good at getting my point accross so i may not be saying it correctly
[08:37:47] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego no no, dont get me wrong, il be the first to admit im wrong if i feel i am wrong
[08:37:58] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: I won't discuss a topic that I'm not confident about for the same reason you probably shouldn't (and hence, why you conceded) - instead I'll research the topic when it becomes of valeu to me
[08:37:59] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego i love to learn
[08:38:02] <d03boy> since when is wrong a feeling?
[08:38:17] <The_Vulture> d03boy: good question
[08:38:20] <AngelusMori> the javabot doesn't give me an url related to iterators =(
[08:38:36] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego what i said was to me both a) an educated guess and b) something my book in college said and c) something my teacher explained
[08:38:47] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego thats why i was saying it, but if you say im wrong, im listining
[08:38:55] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: b) and c) are indicators of fallacy, so it's 1 against 2
[08:39:03] <dibblego> books lies more than not, and so do teachers
[08:39:09] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego do they?
[08:39:10] <dibblego> s/lies/lie
[08:39:12] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: yes
[08:39:33] <ricky_clarkson> dibblego: I don't lie.
[08:39:41] <ricky_clarkson> </lie>
[08:39:42] <dibblego> is it coincidental that both books and teachers do not have a primary agenda to portray truth? one can only speculate
[08:39:43] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego i am to young to know if thats true so i cant argue that point
[08:39:43] <Mike_L> but I would guess that people on IRC lie more than books and teachers
[08:39:59] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego i suppose the way i see it, i dont lie, esp when im teaching someone else, so i assume other teachers dont either
[08:40:09] <dibblego> Mike_L: again, most people on IRC do not have a primary agenda to portray truth
[08:40:15] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego what would they have to gain by lying? i mean when they dont know they say they dont know
[08:40:24] <dibblego> on that hypothetical basis, you're probably right
[08:40:25] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego i do
[08:40:44] <Mike_L> dibblego: yeah, and ##C is a perfect example of that
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[08:40:59] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego do unto others as you would have done unto you, i try not to lie so in turn im not lied to, i try to live by that, not always successful
[08:41:02] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: they are there to get paid, so they can east and survive; like I said, most of my time I spend unteaching; I teach for fun, because I enjoy it; the money thing is a bonus, but I don't really *need* it
[08:41:07] <dibblego> s/east/eat
[08:41:32] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego teachers would get a paycheck if they told the truth or lied, its not like the news, all shock value
[08:41:36] <ricky_clarkson> dibblego: My primary agenda is to make writing software simple.
[08:41:53] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: why?
[08:41:54] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: not true; teachers get paid to "appear to be portraying truth", and they are very good at that, as are books
[08:41:57] <IMTheNachoMan> my primary agenda is to make the people around him enjoy life
[08:42:22] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego a why would a teacher get paid more to say 2+2=5 vs 2+2=4 ?
[08:42:31] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego as a teacher, do you lie?
[08:42:42] <ricky_clarkson> Because it is the ultimate in automation.
[08:42:53] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: they wouldn't, but it's obvious even to you that it is fallacy; it contradicts the primary agenda of appearing to portray truth
[08:43:00] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: I don't understand
[08:43:17] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego that was just an example, but do you lie?
[08:43:31] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: generally, no; if I lost my job teaching, I really don't care; I have no hugely invested interest in it, other than my own personal satisfaction from teaching
[08:43:31] <IMTheNachoMan> when you teach
[08:43:44] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: There is a translation between requirements and code.  Things get lost in translation.
[08:43:48] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego then why do you ASSUME (and i emphasise assume) that other teachers do
[08:43:59] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: because I see it for myself
[08:44:05] <dibblego> you even provided an example for me
[08:44:09] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: I want to remove (or at least reduce) that translation gap.
[08:44:12] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: do you think that making programming simpler will help to prevent that?
[08:44:14] <dibblego> you reiterated bullshit from a teacher's mouth
[08:44:20] <dibblego> I see that *all* the time
[08:44:34] <dibblego> not your fault, you're a student
[08:44:38] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego my example, you have yet to say why you feel java is bigger on windows, and therefore yet to see if you are correct, for all intents and purposes, my teacher could have been correct
[08:44:44] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: Programming in terms of requirements could, I believe.
[08:44:47] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: I told you, I don't want to do that
[08:44:49] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego or are you 100% positive that what you think is the real reason
[08:45:01] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: no I am not, but I am 100% sure that what you said is false
[08:45:06] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego so how can you say that someone else is wrong, when you dont know the correct answer
[08:45:19] <dibblego> by the process of elimination
[08:45:27] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: what are you doing for this goal?
[08:45:32] <dibblego> is the sky blue? well it's not green or red
[08:45:45] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego many thousands of years ago, people were 100% positive that whoever the guy was that thought the world was round was wrong,
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[08:46:07] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: agreed, I will never derive truth, nor will you, but it is a "closer reality" using my unstated axiom
[08:46:08] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: I've written a bit of code, and done some thinking.
[08:46:22] <dibblego> I prefer the Scientific Method for situations like this
[08:46:38] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: what is the most advanced language that you have used?
[08:46:43] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: You're so gullible
[08:46:49] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego what i will not agree with is, that you feel my teacher is wrong when you yourself dont have an answer, the only way to disprove something is to prove something else
[08:46:53] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: Why don't you just ignore him?
[08:47:03] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal i like to discuss stuff, only way to learn
[08:47:12] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: I don't have a complete answer; I know enough to know what is wrong, but not what is right; why is that hard to accept?
[08:47:15] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal like i said, il be the first to say im wrong once im shown it
[08:47:16] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: What you just said it completely wrong, the only way to disprove something is not to prove something else
[08:47:47] <dibblego> I strive for a closer reality; perhaps more than others; I'm not going to shoot off without a full clue, not even close to a full clue
[08:48:00] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal the only way to say b!=c is to prove that a==c and a!=b
[08:48:01] <dibblego> why don't you derive the truth yourself, and tell your teacher?
[08:48:03] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: You can show that things are wrong without finding out what is right, i.e. you can find out what velocities and angles for ballistics will not hit the target without finding the one that does :)
[08:48:11] <dibblego> that's what academia is all about
[08:48:21] <dibblego> you have heard of Kepler's Law of planetary motion?
[08:48:22] <IMTheNachoMan> hold on let me think
[08:48:26] <Mike_L> IMTheNachoMan: that's not really true
[08:48:28] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: These were my first thoughts on it: http://rickyclarkson.blogspot.com/2005/04/requirement-orientated-development.html
[08:48:50] <Mike_L> IMTheNachoMan: there are many ways to prove b!=c, depending on what we know about b and c
[08:49:03] <IMTheNachoMan> my next step is to write an irc client in which you can start a 'converstaion' and it will some how seperate it from the rest of the chat
[08:49:12] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: good luck
[08:49:23] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal it wont use AI, it will be all user initiated
[08:49:47] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: they have that already, they are called private messages :)
[08:49:47] <IMTheNachoMan> something like i say im in convo 1, and you also say your in convo 1
[08:49:55] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: you didn't answer my question: what is the most advanced programming language that you have used?
[08:49:58] <fuel> isnt there private messaging in irc.s?
[08:50:09] <IMTheNachoMan> and now others can still read everything if they want to join, but maybe there will be a different background color
[08:50:18] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: imo Java.
[08:50:25] <cybereal> Mike_L: that's a rather subjective question
[08:50:27] <Mike_L> IMTheNachoMan: that's a great idea for an IRC client
[08:50:31] <dibblego> what is "advanced"?
[08:50:38] <Mike_L> cybereal: I was fishing for a subjective answer :)
[08:50:39] <IMTheNachoMan> Mike_L sarcasm?
[08:50:48] <Mike_L> IMTheNachoMan: no.  I'm serious.
[08:51:03] <IMTheNachoMan> Mike_L :P
[08:51:10] <cybereal> Mike_L: Subjective questions tend to lead to emotional arguments :)
[08:51:13] <IMTheNachoMan> il prob do it if someone else doesnt befor me
[08:51:15] <NOthsouth> How can I convert a String for int ?
[08:51:16] <Mike_L> IMTheNachoMan: I like how irssi hilights lines that contain my nickname... being able to hide everythign else would be really helpful
[08:51:26] <dibblego> ~tell NOthsouth about javadoc Integer
[08:51:27] <javabot> NOthsouth, please see java.lang.Integer: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/Integer.html
[08:51:30] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: have you ever used a functional language?
[08:51:48] <NOthsouth> dibblego, :)
[08:51:49] <IMTheNachoMan> Mike_L yeah i like that to, you can get almost any irc client to do that
[08:51:50] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: XSLT.
[08:52:19] <IMTheNachoMan> cheeser your ballistics example, your 100% you can prove where it did not land w/o knowing where it did land?
[08:52:42] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: I didn't say that
[08:52:46] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: and I'm not cheeser
[08:52:57] <IMTheNachoMan> oh sorry
[08:52:58] <IMTheNachoMan> my bad
[08:53:12] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: I said you can prove that certain parameters DO NOT SUCCEED without ever proving which ones DO SUCCEED. Clear enough?
[08:53:13] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: is XSLT a general language?  can you create a network server with it?
[08:53:37] <cybereal> Mike_L: you didn't say general language
[08:53:38] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal im tryin to think of an example
[08:53:57] <Mike_L> cybereal: thanks for pointing that out
[08:54:15] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal kind of how, when you are trying to prove a proof, you dont have to prove true for every scenario, you just have to disprove for one scenario
[08:54:18] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: You ever play the game where you shoot from one tank at other tanks by deciding velocity and angle?
[08:54:24] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: Kindly get to the point.
[08:54:41] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: That really depends on what you are trying to prove
[08:54:49] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal yes that is right
[08:54:55] <The_Vulture> Mike_L: you mean "a programming language" - there are many languages that have nothing to do with the ability to define a network server..
[08:55:04] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: Your general sweeping statement was wrong, but if you made it more specific to some certain types of situations then you might be more accurate
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[08:55:31] <dibblego> my 2 year old learned his first color - it was green - I asked him, what color is the sky? he said I don't know. I asked him is it blue? he said no
[08:55:37] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal im going to have to stop, not that i dont want to, but a) i have to sleep and b) im scared sh**less that pr3d4t0r will come back and kick me for goin off-topic
[08:55:40] <dibblego> er, is it green
[08:56:15] <cybereal> scared of getting kicked heh amusing
[08:56:22] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: have you ever used a general functional programming language?
[08:56:37] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal yeah, i already had to beg two times to be let back in, id rather not face that agian
[08:57:03] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal why do you think i have to read what i have typed 2 or 3 times to make sure i have not broken any rules
[08:57:15] <fuel> IMTheNachoMan: how did you do that?
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[08:57:23] <dibblego> IMTheNachoMan: if it's that bad, find another network that is more lax
[08:57:23] <IMTheNachoMan> i wish i coulda got that script to work for mirc, but couldnt
[08:57:28] <NOthsouth> I have String opt;  ant int x=0;  i`m trying to converto Integer.parseInt(opt ,x);     I need the opt result in x .. but it`s not working..
[08:57:34] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: Is that what LISP is?  I touched LISP.
[08:57:50] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: Because you're abbrasively argumentative about things that are totally irrelevant, and since we're mostly engineers in here, we also tend to have difficulties resisting the arguments.  It's bad for business you see.
[08:57:52] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego no, i prefer this one, i shall not quit casue the going got tough, i shall learn and adapt and overcome the obstciles (however thats spelled)
[08:58:07] <dibblego> obstacles
[08:58:08] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: it's like at the zoo, they tell you not to feed the animals, because they know they animals will eat the food
[08:58:10] <IMTheNachoMan> fuel what you mean how?
[08:58:22] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal ?
[08:58:24] <NOthsouth> when I try to put the x in swtich (x)   i got this error: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NumberFormatException: radix 0 less than Character.MIN_RADIX
[08:58:33] <ricky_clarkson> NOthsouth: What are the parameters that parseInt takes?
[08:58:42] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth you cant have a radix of 0
[08:58:42] <fuel> IMTheNachoMan:  requesting to be let be back again into the channel...
[08:58:53] <The_Vulture> NOthsouth: that seems unlikely - a switch is not going to produce that exception..
[08:58:56] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: good
[08:59:01] <The_Vulture> NOthsouth: what's the stack trace say?
[08:59:02] <IMTheNachoMan> fuel hummm i dont think im allowed to share that
[08:59:11] <fuel> IMTheNachoMan:  ;)
[08:59:16] <IMTheNachoMan> how can you have a radix of 0?
[08:59:25] <NOthsouth> The_Vulture,  at java.lang.Integer.parseInt(Integer.java:419)
[08:59:30] <IMTheNachoMan> im assuming this is bieng done in some number conversion
[08:59:32] <The_Vulture> NOthsouth: next line..
[08:59:48] <NOthsouth> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NumberFormatException: radix 0 less than Character.MIN_RADIX
[08:59:48] <NOthsouth> 	at java.lang.Integer.parseInt(Integer.java:419)
[08:59:48] <NOthsouth> 	at com.massaki.roupas.RoupasGui.main(RoupasGui.java:14)
[09:00:20] <The_Vulture> NOthsouth: so what's on line 14?
[09:00:20] <ricky_clarkson> What's line 14 of RoupasGui.java?
[09:00:24] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal: i bid you adu
[09:00:28] <ricky_clarkson> Of course, it's your parseInt call..
[09:00:31] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego: i bid you adu
[09:00:42] <NOthsouth> line 14 = switch (x)
[09:00:43] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego and cybereal maybe we can continue this some other time, some other place
[09:00:46] <The_Vulture> NOthsouth: No.
[09:00:50] <The_Vulture> NOthsouth: recompile/rerun
[09:01:22] <IMTheNachoMan> dibblego and cybereal i really am interested in your opinions, as i see it a great opertunity to learn someone else's views
[09:01:29] <IMTheNachoMan> to everyone else, good nite
[09:01:52] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: I just read your note about Requirement Oriented Development
[09:01:59] <NOthsouth> The_Vulture, http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8605
[09:02:10] <IMTheNachoMan> and if pr3d4t0r comes back, please dont joke around and tell him i was bieng an ass, i think im on a short enough leash as it is, peace guys
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[09:02:26] <The_Vulture> NOthsouth: recompile, rerun, pastebin the stacktrace.
[09:02:35] <The_Vulture> clean compile, delete all class files and compile
[09:02:46] <cybereal> IMTheNachoMan: I think it's adieu
[09:02:55] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: it sounds like your use case objects are actually state machines that interact with the application and user
[09:03:03] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal yeah i know, adu = adieu in nacho language, heh :-P
[09:03:08] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal adieu
[09:03:15] <NOthsouth> The_Vulture, I do that, I get the same 3 lines in stacktreace
[09:03:16] <IMTheNachoMan> cybereal better yet....bye
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[09:03:28] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth is your code somewhere?
[09:03:41] <NOthsouth> IMTheNachoMan, http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8605
[09:03:42] <IMTheNachoMan> for online viewing pleasure I mean
[09:04:12] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: you said that the actions are sequential.  Why is this necessary?
[09:04:41] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: Each Use Case defines a sequence of Actions (there can be loops).
[09:05:12] <ricky_clarkson> Actually, no, there's no need for loops.
[09:05:22] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth first thing, i dont think 0 as a valid raidx is gonna work, dont konw what the parseInt method does, looking
[09:05:45] <NOthsouth> IMTheNachoMan, I don`t know nothing about raidx
[09:05:46] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: please give me an example of an Action
[09:05:54] <NOthsouth> this appear to me in the stacktrace
[09:06:07] <The_Vulture> NOthsouth: a) that exception isn't occuring on the switch line - you're miscounting your lines b) read the docs for the parseInt method
[09:06:59] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth Integer.parseInt(opt ,x);
[09:07:14] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth line 14 in the link you gave me
[09:07:34] <NOthsouth> yes ..
[09:07:41] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth that parseInt method is going to convert the string opt to a number using radix x and return an integer, howerver ou passed 0 as radix, that is not gonna work
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[09:07:55] <IMTheNachoMan> it is going to throw NumberFormatException
[09:08:16] <NOthsouth> IMTheNachoMan, hum
[09:08:22] * bpalmer will someday build a base-0 computer
[09:08:34] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth one sec
[09:08:48] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth change line 14 to     x = Integer.parseInt(opt ,x);
[09:08:51] <IMTheNachoMan> first
[09:08:53] <IMTheNachoMan> and fix the radix
[09:08:57] <Mike_L> bpalmer: and what will you calculate with it?  arithmetic with 0-bit signed integers?
[09:08:58] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth change line 14 to     x = Integer.parseInt(opt ,10);
[09:09:02] <NOthsouth> Integer.parseInt(opt);
[09:09:06] <NOthsouth> that is the right way
[09:09:07] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth im assuming you want to use base 10
[09:09:17] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth that aughta work, you really need to learn to use the API
[09:09:26] <bpalmer> Mike_L: heaven forbid. Unsigned all the way
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[09:09:37] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: final class ValidateUserID implements Action { public Collection<Input> getInputs(){ final Collection<Input> inputs=new ArrayList<Input>(); inputs.add(new Input("name","text")); inputs.add(new Input("password","text"); return inputs; }...
[09:09:38] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth make line 14    x = Integer.parseInt(opt);
[09:10:12] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: sorry I didn't expect you to type code :P
[09:10:24] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth you actually dont even have to convert it, i think a switch statement can handle a string for comparision
[09:10:27] <NOthsouth> IMTheNachoMan, =)
[09:10:37] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: so you're envisioning an Action as being like a form page?
[09:10:39] <NOthsouth> IMTheNachoMan, no it can`t
[09:10:42] <NOthsouth> I try
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[09:10:46] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth oh ok, nevermind then
[09:10:50] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: If you like.
[09:10:52] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth well just fix that one line, should fix your prolem
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[09:10:54] <IMTheNachoMan> problem
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[09:11:09] <IMTheNachoMan> Integer.parseInt returns an int, you have to store that somewhere
[09:11:21] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: please explain
[09:11:34] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/Integer.html#parseInt(java.lang.String, int)
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[09:11:42] <NOthsouth> IMTheNachoMan, yes.. it fixed,, thx you..
[09:12:10] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: It doesn't have to have that UI.  It can be a servlet, an ATM style UI, anything.  The UserInterface is (largely) separate.
[09:12:25] <fuel> IMTheNachoMan: you can share that particular with me? private message.... i have a problem with one channel?
[09:12:26] <IMTheNachoMan> NOthsouth and for future reference, radix is what base    5 base 10 = 0101 base 2 = 5 base 16 (hex)
[09:12:46] <IMTheNachoMan> fuel what?
[09:12:51] <IMTheNachoMan> fuel PM me
[09:13:14] <ricky_clarkson> = 07:59:49 < ricky_clarkson> NOthsouth: What are the parameters that parseInt takes?
[09:13:39] <ricky_clarkson> I never got an answer, and 15 minutes later you've been spoonfed a solution.
[09:13:53] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: I still don't understand how these Actions have anything to do with requirements oriented programming
[09:14:25] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: The requirements are expressed as use cases.  Use cases are expressed in terms of actions.
[09:14:28] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: were you really looking for the parameters of parseInt?
[09:14:31] <IMTheNachoMan> ricky_clarkson did i do something wrong? im sorry
[09:14:31] <NOthsouth> ricky_clarkson, sorry, that was eclipse noob error.. i just choose automaticly
[09:14:41] <ricky_clarkson> ~newbie ide
[09:14:42] <javabot> newbies shouldn't use IDEs.  read:  http://qa.jtiger.org/GetQAndA.action?qids=52&showAnswers=true
[09:14:51] <IMTheNachoMan> nobody should use IDE's
[09:14:56] <ricky_clarkson> Actions delegate to services.
[09:15:18] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: I was looking for NOthsouth to look for them.
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[09:15:34] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: are you using Windows?
[09:15:38] <ricky_clarkson> Moin roots-.
[09:15:41] <roots-> moin moin
[09:15:42] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: And Linux.
[09:15:43] <roots-> win move left
[09:16:23] <roots-> last day before 2 week vacation
[09:16:26] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: then why don't you just download the Java SDK docs as an HTMLHelp file... then you can just double click it and search it with Windows Help
[09:16:29] <roots-> rocks!
[09:16:56] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: I have no problems looking for API docs.
[09:17:01] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: I think NOthsouth does.
[09:17:06] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: ok
[09:17:09] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: My question was for HIS benefit, not mine.
[09:17:11] <roots-> i use eclipse's javadoc view alot
[09:17:12] <IMTheNachoMan> Mike_L you can do that?
[09:17:28] <Mike_L> IMTheNachoMan: of course.  that's the second thing I did after downloading the SDK itself
[09:17:30] <ricky_clarkson> I'd rather use Google Desktop Search than HTMLHelp.
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[09:17:51] <Mike_L> beginners should use JEdit, not Eclipse.
[09:18:06] <roots-> Mike_L: i am a beginner
[09:18:14] <ricky_clarkson> JEdit's compiler plugin gives me a NullPointerException.
[09:18:22] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: oh I never thought about using that for programming docs... good idea
[09:18:32] <roots-> but still i think eclipse is more appropriate
[09:18:39] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: that's why you invoke the compiler from the command line: javac *.java :)
[09:18:40] <ricky_clarkson> JEdit associates itself with every filetype (as a right-click option).
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[09:19:03] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: I was looking for a solution for teaching people who aren't used to cmd.exe.
[09:19:22] <roots-> Mike_L: if you dont have packages
[09:19:23] <Mike_L> roots-: you're a beginner.  your thoughts are uninformed.  stop using Eclipse now and start using JEdit and compile your programs from the command line
[09:19:57] <heanol> fuck
[09:19:58] <roots-> Mike_L: i use ed before i use jedit
[09:19:59] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: Sensible advice would be to compile with ant, then you can switch IDE at random.
[09:20:01] <roots-> actually ed is good
[09:20:10] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: I want to talk about requirements oriented programming... this is an interesting topic
[09:20:14] <ricky_clarkson> Personally I'd use vim over JEdit.
[09:20:14] <roots-> if you worked with ed a lot you can be productive with it and i enjoy doing it
[09:20:18] <heanol> getting out of memory: java heap space on a to-be-production-service
[09:20:21] <heanol> =/
[09:20:25] <IMTheNachoMan> ricky_clarkson funny, i just installed it today, the installer, and it didnt do that
[09:20:31] <roots-> ricky_clarkson: now vim is ok only as an alias to emacs -f viper-mode
[09:20:42] <Mike_L> yeah, if you're on linux then use vi, if you can stand it... or emacs
[09:20:51] <ricky_clarkson> IMTheNachoMan: Did you use the Windows installer?
[09:20:55] <roots-> Mike_L: why on linux ?
[09:21:02] <roots-> emacs runs on practically every platform
[09:21:10] <roots-> on my windows i have 3 emacsen's
[09:21:12] <ricky_clarkson> I use vim on Cygwin and Linux.
[09:21:18] <roots-> xemacs, emacs and ntemacs
[09:21:22] <Mike_L> roots-: true
[09:21:42] <d03boy> vim is the way to go
[09:21:58] <fuel> IMTheNachoMan: Ping!
[09:22:05] <Mike_L> but I don't like emacs... although I was impressed that it has its own Japanese input system
[09:22:05] <ricky_clarkson> I'm trying out im (insert mode by default)
[09:22:07] <roots-> and instead of javac *.java, wouldnt you rather do a find . -type f -name "*.java" -print0 | xargs -0 -n 100 javac  ?
[09:22:24] <ricky_clarkson> roots-: :make
[09:22:32] <roots-> next step indeed
[09:22:38] <ricky_clarkson> :set makeprg=ant
[09:22:46] <roots-> years ago i used jikes to generated makefile deps for java
[09:22:46] <Mike_L> roots: no because I like to keep a "junk/" folder where I put .java files that I don't want to compile
[09:23:14] <roots-> java has dynamic class loading, so it is hard to tell what to compile and what not (at compile time)
[09:23:27] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: I'd advise you to have a src/ directory for stuff you want to compile.
[09:23:35] <Mike_L> the problem with emacs is that it is purely non-intuitive, and vi has the same problem
[09:23:41] <roots-> Mike_L: what ?
[09:23:49] <roots-> emacs is the most intuitive software out there
[09:24:03] <IMTheNachoMan> why is it when im ready to goto bed, this channel livens uP?
[09:24:03] <Mike_L> the user interface is impenetrable
[09:24:04] <roots-> i can explain you emacs in 3 minutes
[09:24:09] <roots-> Mike_L: what ?
[09:24:09] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: I'd agree on vi, but not vim.
[09:24:11] <roots-> that is so untrue
[09:24:15] <roots-> even vim is cool on that
[09:24:16] <ricky_clarkson> IMTheNachoMan: Europe awakes.
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[09:24:29] <roots-> in emacs you press M-x   (escape x will work everywhere)
[09:24:30] <Bevin> hi
[09:24:33] <Mike_L> roots: explain how to change preferences and save them so they come back the next time I run it
[09:24:40] <roots-> then you press tab and you see all command available with the current modes
[09:24:49] <roots-> Mike_L: that happens fully interactive
[09:24:51] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: vim ~/.vimrc
[09:25:00] <Mike_L> roots-: even better... explain how I would FIND THE INFORMATION on how to change preferences and save them
[09:25:01] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: :help settings
[09:25:05] <ricky_clarkson> [iirc]
[09:25:07] <roots-> Mike_L: in emacs ?
[09:25:14] <Mike_L> yes
[09:25:14] <roots-> M-x customize<TAB>
[09:25:20] <Mike_L> ok
[09:25:34] <roots-> (C-x o to switch to that completion buffer if you need to scroll)
[09:25:38] <roots-> C-x o cycles windows
[09:25:40] <Mike_L> say I want to change my tab size to 3 spaces... how would I find out how to do that?
[09:25:48] <ricky_clarkson> :help tab
[09:25:54] <roots-> the top level way is just
[09:25:56] <roots-> M-x customize
[09:26:00] <roots-> then you have it all right there
[09:26:04] <roots-> for tab do
[09:26:08] <roots-> M-x customize-variable
[09:26:09] <Mike_L> I have it right there?
[09:26:16] <roots-> you get there via customize too
[09:26:26] <Mike_L> the last time I got that far... M-x customize-<lots of variables to choose from with tab completion>
[09:26:37] <d03boy> who the hell cares..... its opinion
[09:26:45] <roots-> M-x customize-variable
[09:26:47] <roots-> tab-width
[09:26:51] <ricky_clarkson> Actually :help tabstop
[09:26:56] <roots-> now tell me anything that could be more intuitive
[09:27:01] <roots-> vim is about the same league
[09:27:09] <Mike_L> but once you get a variable, how do you change it?  and how do you know the format to type the new setting?  and how do you save it?
[09:27:12] <ricky_clarkson> roots-: :help tab<tab> ;)
[09:27:15] <roots-> you can even browser preferences like in a gui app
[09:27:20] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: Which variable?
[09:27:29] <roots-> Mike_L: you click on save for future sessions
[09:27:31] <Mike_L> any variable
[09:27:57] <IMTheNachoMan> bye guys, for real this time
[09:28:00] <Mike_L> roots-: this must be new because the last time I tried emacs (and xemacs), there was no "save for future sessions" button
[09:28:15] <roots-> Mike_L: its been there since at least 7 years
[09:28:16] <ricky_clarkson> :mkvimrc
[09:28:17] <d03boy> buttons? who uses buttons anyway
[09:29:04] <Mike_L> anyway the sad thing is that hard to use software like emacs is practically the only well supported development environment for unix
[09:29:19] <roots-> Mike_L: it is not hard to use
[09:29:22] <Mike_L> there are tons of tools that only run in emacs: PVS, distel, etc.
[09:29:30] <roots-> i told you how to do that, even my dad uses emacs instead of notepad
[09:29:33] <roots-> and he has no clue
[09:29:39] <ricky_clarkson> I've never come across a tool that requires emacs.
[09:29:51] <Mike_L> roots-: saying that won't change my mind or the mind of any poor newbie you plop down in front of emacs and say "See, isn't this easy?"
[09:29:54] <roots-> hell there is elisp webservers
[09:30:09] <ricky_clarkson> roots-: Maybe, but you can safely ignore them.
[09:30:12] <roots-> Mike_L: all people i have showed emacs went "wow this is easy", "fantastic"
[09:30:29] <roots-> and all of them said after 10 minutes ... "this is fun, i'll get by from by myself"
[09:30:41] <ricky_clarkson> If you give someone a decent vimrc, they like vim.
[09:30:42] <roots-> i agree though that vi/vim is harder to deal with
[09:31:13] <Mike_L> if you customize the application for them... or let them use your own pre-customized installation, then it works much better
[09:31:28] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: Nothing wrong with that.
[09:31:49] <roots-> yes but it is as easy as any windows app with emacs
[09:31:52] <roots-> M-x customize
[09:31:58] <roots-> its like "preferences" in a gui app, browsing menus
[09:32:19] <Mike_L> then it is wrong to say "all of the people to whom I showed it loved it" and pretend that this has any bearing ont he experience of a user who just downloads the software and installs it alone on his PC
[09:32:51] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: Most vim users get a customised vimrc from their Linux distro.
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[09:33:08] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: I've only seen one, Slax (a live CD) that doesn't provide a vimrc.
[09:33:18] <roots-> Mike_L: that is right, it takes 5 minutes guidance
[09:33:20] <Mike_L> usability is a big problem in modern software
[09:33:25] <roots-> or someone reading the initial short help
[09:33:33] <ricky_clarkson> Unfortunately that's what we're using to teach with..
[09:33:35] <roots-> but most people refuse to read help/docs and all that
[09:34:15] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: vim has a crazily stupid idea of being vi-compatible, even when you start it as vim (unless there's a vimrc).
[09:34:28] <Mike_L> roots-: I installed xemacs 21.4 and gave it a good half hour before giving up
[09:34:41] <roots-> Mike_L: then you are just a slow learner
[09:34:57] <ricky_clarkson> I used emacs, no real difficulties, but I didn't like the feel of it.
[09:34:58] <roots-> slow learners most often are good learners
[09:35:09] <ricky_clarkson> My point of entry to Linux is bash, not my text editor.
[09:35:15] <roots-> i am a slow learner myself
[09:35:20] <Mike_L> I think that every developer should be required to read Jeff Raskin's The Humane Interface before touching any piece of software that will interact with a human being
[09:35:26] <roots-> for me it took an hour or so to get the basic emacs skills
[09:35:30] <Mike_L> roots: you just don't get it
[09:35:54] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: http://rickyclarkson.blogspot.com
[09:36:08] <Mike_L> software shouldn't have to be learned.  it should be intuitive
[09:36:09] <roots-> yes but zshell inside emacs is nicer
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[09:36:20] <roots-> esepcially with sqlplus you must use emacs shells
[09:36:44] <roots-> Mike_L: emacs is intuitive
[09:36:59] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: omg you use a 233MHz machine 8-O
[09:37:09] <heanol> ricky_clarkson, if eclipse found your 1.5 jre it should have used 1.5
[09:37:10] <Mike_L> roots-: nonsense
[09:37:13] <heanol> does here
[09:37:23] <roots-> Mike_L: you didnt get it, but like i said
[09:37:25] <Mike_L> roots-: saying something over and over to yourself doesn't make it true
[09:37:27] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: Not right now.
[09:37:31] <heanol> i hate sqlplus
[09:37:35] <roots-> you are not the type that got the hang of emacs quickly
[09:37:49] <ricky_clarkson> heanol: I didn't imagine that user experience.
[09:37:51] <d03boy> roots-, so you're saying emacs is only for some people...
[09:37:58] <roots-> heanol: if you use it inside emacs it helps overcoming any line-editing problems
[09:38:02] <Mike_L> roots-: I'm not going to tell you that Erlang is easier to learn than Python, even though I love Erlang and it is far better than Python for many many many applications
[09:38:05] <roots-> d03boy: i's say its for most
[09:38:19] <roots-> Mike_L: you are saying emacs is not intuitive
[09:38:23] <Mike_L> yes
[09:38:24] <roots-> Mike_L: which is so untrue
[09:38:35] <Mike_L> I'm saying that software should be intuitive
[09:38:47] <roots-> you must either be a slow learner, prejudiced or a vi user
[09:38:55] <Mike_L> lol
[09:38:55] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: A big part of intuitiveness is similarity to software the user has learned already.
[09:39:00] <roots-> emacs is intuitive by any standard
[09:39:20] <roots-> now profi-ass on c64 wasnt intuitive
[09:39:23] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: that is one part, yes... I wouldn't say that it's too big though
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[09:39:29] <cybereal> Remember guys: The only intuitive interface is the nipple, everything else is learned.
[09:39:30] <roots-> for an extreme example
[09:39:34] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: I'd say it's far too big.
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[09:39:37] <heanol> roots-, haha i've never thought about doign that
[09:39:40] <roots-> cybereal++
[09:39:44] <roots-> heanol: it rocks
[09:39:47] <heanol> i guess the next time i'm forced to work with oracle i'll do it that way :P
[09:39:51] <heanol> thanks for the ip.
[09:39:51] <heanol> tip
[09:40:01] <cybereal> besides, emacs seems great next to edlin which is the first editor I wrote code with
[09:40:22] <roots-> heanol: you can scroll, incremental search output in both ways, incrementally search command history, jump around with word bondaries etc
[09:40:38] <roots-> as a sidenote, if you use bash you are familiar with emacs already most likely
[09:40:40] <roots-> set -o vi
[09:40:43] <Mike_L> cybereal: yeah and riding horses is a lot better than riding cows
[09:40:47] <roots-> put bash into vi mode, set -o emacs is the default
[09:40:52] <cybereal> in fact emacs is great if you like remembering tons of arbitrary command codes
[09:40:58] <cybereal> but I prefer the simpler vim
[09:40:58] <ricky_clarkson> My first was the Spectrum 48K BASIC interpreter.
[09:41:09] <heanol> i love emacs.. i just wish it was ruby or something based instead of lisp based
[09:41:10] <roots-> in bash try  ESC-2 ESC-b to jump backwards to words
[09:41:13] <cybereal> less to remember, more liketly to find a similar editor installed
[09:41:15] <roots-> it is the SAME in emacs
[09:41:41] <Mike_L> software shouldn't have many modes like emacs and vim have
[09:41:44] <d03boy> roots-, sounds like something i would've never known without someone telling me
[09:41:57] <roots-> d03boy: what do you mean ?
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[09:42:06] <ricky_clarkson> roots-: No effect (that bash thing).
[09:42:21] <cybereal> Mike_L: no, that's not necesssarily true.  THey serve a good purpose for the environment in which they were conceived.
[09:42:24] <terence_> hi
[09:42:26] <heanol> ricky_clarkson, type a few words and then do it
[09:42:27] <cybereal> Mike_L: slow, unreliable terminals
[09:42:32] <ricky_clarkson> heanol: Got it.
[09:42:47] <terence_> +morning<g>
[09:42:47] <cybereal> Also I agree that an editor shouldn't require you to lift your hands away from the keyboard
[09:42:48] <ricky_clarkson> I'd rather hit ctrl-left and ctrl-right for that.
[09:42:54] <roots-> ricky_clarkson: help bind
[09:43:09] <roots-> you can do that, in emacs even intuitively :)
[09:43:14] <heanol> ricky_clarkson, what? ESC-2 ESC-B is'nt intuitive?!
[09:43:16] <heanol> ;)
[09:43:17] <roots-> not with readline though
[09:43:22] <Mike_L> cybereal: yes, and now they should be put to sleep like Ol' Bess the horse who pulled a plow for 20 years
[09:43:22] <cybereal> But uh, vim vs. emacs? guys?  What a pathetically newbie argument!  THEY ARE JUST TEXT EDITORS!
[09:43:34] <cybereal> Mike_L: why? nobody makes you use them
[09:43:37] <ricky_clarkson> cybereal: I don't think there was a vim-emacs fight here.
[09:43:45] <cybereal> ricky_clarkson: it happened, I saw it
[09:43:53] <ricky_clarkson> Nope.
[09:43:54] <roots-> http://www.io.com/~dierdorf/vi-emacs2.jpg
[09:43:59] <roots-> this is the ultimate url
[09:44:06] <Mike_L> cybereal: that's not true.  when the most advanced tools are available only for emacs, then one is forced into it
[09:44:32] <cybereal> Mike_L: that's not the case
[09:44:33] <AngelusMori> emacs is an text editor? i thought it's an operating system...
[09:44:35] <roots-> Mike_L: what stopps you from porting those tools to an intuitive gui ?
[09:44:36] <Mike_L> cybereal: it's like telling someone that they shouldn't complain that the streets are dangerous because they don't HAVE to drive
[09:44:42] <ricky_clarkson> roots-: Cannot find server.
[09:44:55] <cybereal> Mike_L: no, it's nothing like that
[09:44:56] <roots-> ricky_clarkson: works for me
[09:44:59] <cybereal> Mike_L: you won't get run over by emacs
[09:45:10] <Mike_L> roots-: because that is duplicating work and I want to work on new things... not redoing someone else's work
[09:45:18] <d03boy> does anyone know of a way to test if a ObjectInputStream has any objects to input. If I give it an empty file and try to read an object, it throws an exception
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[09:45:36] <roots-> d03boy: thats enough indication right there, isnt it ?
[09:45:43] <Mike_L> anyway my argument applies to all poorly designed software... especially MS Word and Visio
[09:45:46] <Mike_L> not just emacs
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[09:46:08] <roots-> ok, mr slow-learner, negative-guy
[09:46:10] <roots-> got your point
[09:46:14] <d03boy> roots-, no... I want to be able to handle it differently than any ol' IOexceptionn
[09:46:41] <Mike_L> visio is such a bitch to make anything that looks nice
[09:46:52] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: I think it is largely because of the high coupling between what the program does and what the user sees.
[09:46:53] <roots-> d03boy but doesnt it amount to the same when the stream is broken, the harddisc fails, the input file is empty and so on
[09:47:06] <roots-> it all means you cannot read an object
[09:47:12] <roots-> try xfig, xfig is good actually
[09:47:15] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: visio?
[09:47:22] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: In general.
[09:47:31] <roots-> old and featuring athena widgets (talking real uglyness), but it is usable and stable
[09:47:52] <Mike_L> roots-: and it will print nicely?
[09:48:06] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: what is "it" in your sentence?
[09:48:19] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: The general usability problem in software.
[09:48:25] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: If I release this within the next few years, I won't be calling it a framework. ;)
[09:49:08] <roots-> Mike_L: yes
[09:49:13] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: usability isn't a "problem" in software... for interactive software, usability is the entire purpose for the software to exist
[09:49:18] <roots-> xfig is stable since 25 years
[09:49:32] <roots-> Mike_L: ok great in theory
[09:49:56] <roots-> ever been on a real gui project, with time pressure, weird customer requests, unskilled people on the team ?
[09:51:01] <Mike_L> roots-: no
[09:51:24] <roots-> i did a lot of gui apps in the real world
[09:51:25] <Mike_L> but it's not just theory because I'm not the only one saying this
[09:51:26] <roots-> paid work
[09:51:27] <roots-> on teams
[09:51:37] <roots-> mostly motif
[09:51:40] <Mike_L> not enough developers today have enough theory
[09:51:51] <terence_> got a prob here. i pull weight from the childs in root direction until all weights have reached the root, i am not sure if my algo works this way?
[09:51:51] <roots-> and its hard to get things to work in the first place
[09:51:56] <Drone> View terence's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8606
[09:51:57] <roots-> its not purely decoupled from technology
[09:52:01] <roots-> and i am a beginner
[09:52:10] <roots-> skilled programmers program 10+ years
[09:52:21] <Mike_L> roots-: you were unskilled and using poor tools... what do you expect?
[09:52:33] <Mike_L> wtf did your manager expect
[09:53:22] <Mike_L> actually most programming tools are poor for creating user interfaces
[09:53:41] <terence_> anyone already did such a collect weight from childs bottom up a tree?
[09:53:42] <roots-> Mike_L: you havent done any real gui work have you ?
[09:53:57] <roots-> terence_: now thats a post-order visit isn't ?
[09:54:24] <ricky_clarkson> terence_: That's disgusting.
[09:54:31] <Mike_L> roots-: I started with MSVC++1.52 and the Win32 API
[09:54:47] <terence_> roots-:  i think yes.. adding weight from childs to poarents .. let parent add its weight to its parent as soon all its childs have visited
[09:54:48] <ricky_clarkson> "collect weight from childs bottom up a tree" ugggggh
[09:55:01] <roots-> public double collectWeight(Node node) { double d = foreach(child c) d += collectWeight(c); return d + myWeight; }
[09:55:18] <roots-> that "public" spoils my pseudocode, ignore it :)
[09:55:32] <terence_> ricky_clarkson:  how is it called correctly?
[09:55:51] <ricky_clarkson> terence_: I don't know, because I don't know what it means.
[09:55:59] <roots-> he means to get the weight of a subtree
[09:56:01] <Mike_L> roots-: I've done GUIs in Python/SDL, Python/TK, C/Win32, C/SDL, TCL/TK, and now XHTML1.0/CSS2.1/YAWS
[09:56:04] <terence_> you are just to english..
[09:56:07] <roots-> and the code was outlined above
[09:56:09] <roots-> :)
[09:56:15] <ricky_clarkson> I didn't read it.
[09:56:22] <ricky_clarkson> Once I saw 'tree' I lost interest.
[09:56:38] <Mike_L> roots-: oh yah and Swing :(
[09:56:43] <roots-> 24deg celcius forecast for today
[09:56:47] <roots-> it is 20 already
[09:56:56] <terence_> roots-: you algo only get one level!
[09:57:20] <terence_> i need to walk bottom(childs) up to root all the way
[09:57:21] <Mike_L> I think that AJAX is going to force developers to rethink their GUIs
[09:57:25] <roots-> it is not my "algo"
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[09:57:45] <KingNato> Mike_L: YAWS?  I assume you don't mean the web server?
[09:57:46] <roots-> could you explain what you need to do in a proper manner ?
[09:57:56] <Mike_L> KingNato: yes, I do
[09:58:40] <terence_> get all weight of nodes .. and a nodes weigth is cacled from its own and its childs weight
[09:59:08] <Mike_L> I really want to learn Ruby on Rails, but I've decided to finish this project in Erlang/YAWS + plain XHTML/CSS (no JavaScript)
[09:59:17] <roots-> terence_: what do you have given ?
[09:59:37] <Mike_L> KingNato: have you used Erlang at all?
[09:59:39] <terence_> the tree and the leafes nodes in that tree, and of course the weight at the nodes
[10:00:01] <roots-> terence_: now when you have a tree given you have the leaf nodes given as well
[10:00:04] <ricky_clarkson> I want to stick with statically-typed languages.
[10:00:08] <roots-> since you have ... the gree given
[10:00:14] <ricky_clarkson> I think I'm addicted.
[10:00:16] <roots-> tree even
[10:00:37] * ricky_clarkson gets up.
[10:00:41] <roots-> ricky_clarkson: try heroin, it successfully cures morphine addiction, might also help you out of your addiction
[10:00:47] <terence_> roots-:  to find the leaves anyway that would sot time .. how ever i have the start list of nondes (leafes)
[10:01:04] <roots-> terence_: that is irrelevant
[10:01:07] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: have you tried ML?
[10:01:20] <roots-> i am in a meeting
[10:01:21] <ricky_clarkson> No, is it just your initials?
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[10:01:38] <terence_> roots-: can my posted code work this?
[10:01:44] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: LOL no... ML as in SML, CML, Ocaml
[10:02:10] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: you might really like Ocaml
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[10:02:30] <ricky_clarkson> Why?
[10:02:37] <Mike_L> because it is object oriented
[10:03:08] <ricky_clarkson> Statically typed?
[10:03:09] <cybereal> I'd like ocaml a lot better if it had some more standard libraries
[10:03:15] <cybereal> ricky_clarkson: definitely
[10:03:18] <Mike_L> yes
[10:03:33] <cybereal> ocaml is an implementaiton of ML, they all have the same basic features
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[10:03:57] <ricky_clarkson> Why would I use it?
[10:04:04] <terence_> besides: did anyone already worked with c# and java interfacing? is that possible?
[10:04:08] <ricky_clarkson> I already have Java, C, and others..
[10:04:15] <Mike_L> cybereal: isn't it a shame that Python has a zillion libraries, but few have even heard of Ocaml?
[10:04:28] <cybereal> Mike_L: I like python too, I wish I had that same library backing in ocaml though
[10:04:41] <cybereal> ricky_clarkson: one nice thing about ocaml is you can compile to cross-platform byte code which can also be compiled to native code
[10:04:43] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: all procedural languages
[10:04:44] <syli725> hi, I want to ask a question abot eclipse. I am really new to eclipse. I created java project. Actually I will deal with jsp, html, java etc... I create a file index.html. But I can't see syntax highlight for index.html. how can I enable syntax highlight for html? do I need to install any special plugin package to do this?
[10:04:53] <ricky_clarkson> I've certainly *heard* of ocaml, but that's all.
[10:05:07] <cybereal> ricky_clarkson: it has rather great performance in the resulting native binaries as well, hence usually being on the list of top fastest dev. environments
[10:05:17] <ricky_clarkson> cybereal: If Apache Harmony gets certified the same will be true of Java.
[10:05:20] <cybereal> ricky_clarkson: but ont he downside, it can be a real pain in the ass to write stuff
[10:05:42] <Mike_L> I've spent about half a year working with Erlang and I really like it, but I do wish it was statically typed
[10:06:04] <cybereal> It is kind of nice to have a good functional language under your belt for those times when you're feeling in the mood for that sort of thing :)
[10:06:10] <Mike_L> cybereal: but the code is much more dense than Java
[10:06:41] <Mike_L> you can write an Ocaml (or Erlang) program in far fewer lines than is required to write the same program in Java
[10:06:53] <ricky_clarkson> Same's true of Perl, but do you want to?
[10:06:59] <cybereal> Mike_L: Which is a double edged sword
[10:07:15] <cybereal> Mike_L: it makes it hard to change in the future, and harder to read someone else's code
[10:07:18] <Mike_L> lol I never even thought of comparing perl with erlang
[10:07:22] <ricky_clarkson> print join " ",split //,join " ",@ARGV;
[10:07:36] <Mike_L> cybereal: I disagree with that
[10:07:54] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: make it stop!
[10:08:14] <cybereal> Imperative style programming is more in tune with the way people learn to give and take instructions earlier in life.
[10:08:19] <terence_> roots-:  still here?
[10:08:25] <syli725> nobody use eclipse for jsp ? can anyone tell me what to do? maybe i should give up and use vim.
[10:08:28] * ricky_clarkson is teaching some Perl this morning.
[10:08:34] <Mike_L> Erlang is pretty shitty for text manipulation, but for concurrent programs it is beautiful
[10:08:35] <cybereal> Not that you can't get used to functional stuff, it's just not necessarily good if you can't know exactly who will have to use what you write
[10:08:40] <terence_> roots-: i think i found a bug in my algo
[10:08:59] * cybereal wonders why syli725 is trying to start another holy war
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[10:09:19] <Mike_L> cybereal: I think that functional programs are generally better designed than procedural programs, so they are easier to understand and modify
[10:09:42] <cybereal> Mike_L: that's rather subjective
[10:09:47] <terence_> roots-:   thisNode.geoWeight.finalizeWeighting(); // has to be outside the if {} direct in front of  // parentNode.geoWeight.addChildWeight(thisNode.geoWeight);
[10:09:54] <ricky_clarkson> syli725: imo, do all your building and stuff from ant, just use Eclipse as a nice UI to ant.
[10:10:01] <cybereal> Mike_L: And likely has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the programs you are thinking of are functional
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[10:10:15] <syli725> cybereal, what do you mean? I am not good at English (joke)..
[10:10:16] <cybereal> But more to do with the tendencies of a developer who would consider functional programming
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[10:11:00] <cybereal> syli725: walking into a programming channel and posing an emacs vs. vim question is like walking into a biker bar and posing a Harley vs. Yamaha question.  It's just not really all that wise.
[10:11:10] <syli725> ricky_clarkson, hi, I am still a student. all i used before is vim, other editors and comple them by javac. that's it. new to ant, eclipse etc...
[10:11:26] <cybereal> actually
[10:11:27] <cybereal> my mistake
[10:11:33] <cybereal> syli725: I misread your 'eclipse' for 'emacs'
[10:11:45] <Mike_L> cybereal: you don't think that the fewer side-effects of functional programs makes them easier to understand?
[10:12:12] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: But possibly harder to write?
[10:12:13] <syli725> cybereal, no worries. I just tried to make eclipse to enable highlighting with my html and jsp .
[10:12:24] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: And further from the problem domain?
[10:12:30] <cybereal> Mike_L: not to someone who doesn't grok those concepts, in fact, many programmers can't even grok them at all
[10:12:47] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: it makes them hard to write poorly, so you wind up writing them well (which is also hard)
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[10:13:02] <Mike_L> ricky_clarkson: but it's harder to write programs well in a language like Java
[10:13:11] <syli725> anyone know how to do that? nobody use eclipse for jsp or html?
[10:13:27] <cybereal> Mike_L: for example, I get them, but two people where I work don't understand recursive functions very well, and get upset when I write them instead of descending iterations or whatever
[10:13:50] <Mike_L> cybereal: I don't believe that any programmer is incapable of understanding a functional programming language
[10:13:58] <cybereal> Mike_L: everybody has their limitations
[10:14:13] <ricky_clarkson> Mike_L: Java has features that I would rather it didn't.
[10:14:18] <ricky_clarkson> E.g., subclassing.
[10:14:31] <Mike_L> it's a shame when a team has to dumb down its techniques because of incompetent and lazy people who don't want to learn new skills
[10:14:37] <ricky_clarkson> Inner classes.
[10:14:48] <joecool> hey, new to java.. but how would i write something like if (number > thisnumber1 and thisnumber2 and thisnumber3)
[10:14:50] <cybereal> Mike_L: furthermore, functional languages don't make much sense in the domain of interactive applications as almost everything that those applications do for the user would be "side effects" to the functionality of the program.  That's just annoying when dealing with functional languages.  It's nice when you can mix them though, i.e. ocaml's mix of imperative and functional.
[10:15:01] <Mike_L> inner classes are needed in java... it's just too bad that they're so damn ugly to write
[10:15:03] <The_Vulture> ricky_clarkson: You'd rather it Java didn't have inheritence?
[10:15:06] <joecool> i'm not sure what to put into that "and" spot
[10:15:31] <cybereal> The_Vulture: ricky_clarkson is a high priest of no non-final concrete classes, don't get him started
[10:15:34] <teralaser> joecool : Read your book under operators
[10:15:41] <Mike_L> cybereal: I absolutely disagree with you there.  Spend 2 hours with Erlang and you will understand how incorrect that statement is
[10:15:45] <cybereal> joecool: &&
[10:15:49] <ricky_clarkson> The_Vulture: I like inheritance, just not subclassing.
[10:16:16] <The_Vulture> cybereal / ricky_clarkson : subclassing is still done when using abstract classes..
[10:16:21] <Mike_L> cybereal: sure it is silly to try to write a GUI application in side-effect-free code
[10:16:25] <ricky_clarkson> I don't use abstract classes.
[10:16:47] <joecool> cybereal: that won't work.. tried it
[10:16:50] <joecool> cybereal: operator && cannot be applied to boolean,int
[10:17:00] <Mike_L> cybereal: but GUI applications should be implemented as concurrent processes and message passing, where functional design shines
[10:17:01] <ricky_clarkson> The_Vulture: All my classes are final, I inherit from interfaces only (except where working around API bugs).
[10:17:08] <cybereal> joecool: you use it on expressions that evaluate to boolean values
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[10:17:22] <cybereal> joecool: so what are you expecting those other numbers to evaluate to?
[10:17:25] <The_Vulture> I love how so many of the regulars (slava, dibblego, and now ricky_clarkson come to mind) have such narrow and strong views about such things.
[10:17:38] <ricky_clarkson> joecool: if (number > thisnumber1 and number > thisnumber2 and number>thisnumber3)
[10:17:50] <cybereal> The_Vulture: yeah, it's kind of annoying, but if you slice them up and mix 'em together they make a nice bitter drink
[10:17:50] <ricky_clarkson> That's the way to think about it.
[10:18:07] <ricky_clarkson> The_Vulture: I can at least justify mine.
[10:18:11] <bowyakka> whats the deal here
[10:18:20] 
[10:18:24] <The_Vulture> ricky_clarkson: Everyone does.
[10:18:27] <ricky_clarkson> Oops, wrong channel.
[10:18:50] <ricky_clarkson> The_Vulture: http://lavender.cime.net/~ricky/tmp/subclassing.txt
[10:18:57] <Mike_L> ok... I've run my mouth enough for tonight
[10:19:04] * ricky_clarkson goes to work.
[10:19:12] <ricky_clarkson> To TEACH PERL!
[10:19:20] <Mike_L> haha you poor soul
[10:19:21] <syli725> i will just give up eclipse. thank you for attention. bye
[10:19:26] * bowyakka pretends to work, but is really looking for a flat
[10:19:32] <Mike_L> good talking with you all
[10:19:42] <The_Vulture> ricky_clarkson: I know dibblego has similar documents (though at least his ideas are probably at least on a similar vein to your own). I believe slava's of the opinion that he doesn't have to justify himself to those who don't already understand him :)
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[10:20:16] * Mike_L goes to sleep
[10:20:40] <bowyakka> wow that document is bitchy
[10:21:34] <bowyakka> i hope i am not one of those lethargic  people
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[10:29:23] <bowyakka> yeah hotmail finally got back to me, now I can figure out why emails are not being delivered
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[10:40:10] <helter> Hello there, does any of you know if anybody has implemented a cross-platform video-conferencing system in Java. If not, do you think it'd be feasible?
[10:40:55] <The_Vulture> don't see any reason it wouldn't be - google would probably tell you a thing or two..
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[10:41:11] <The_Vulture> accessing the video/audio hardware might be interesting.. there's the JMF which might be relevant
[10:41:15] <helter> yes, I did a google search but didn't get anything obvious
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[10:44:18] <themoves> hi all.  My company are moving from PHP to using Java with Tomcat, Hibernate and Struts and we need somone to come in and do some mentoring for a week or so.
[10:44:54] <themoves> We're situated in Gateshead in the north-east of england
[10:45:02] <roots-> struts ?
[10:45:09] <roots-> thats outdated by now from what i heard
[10:45:32] <roots-> i know myself that hibernate is bad even for an ORM mapper
[10:45:42] <roots-> and ORM mappers are questionable in general in a lot of scenarios
[10:46:01] <roots-> now tomcat is crap ever since :)
[10:46:40] <noodl> Like the man said, we need a mentor.
[10:46:55] <roots-> yes, but how come the technology decision is made already
[10:47:13] <roots-> but you still need mentoring, does that indicate a solid understanding of technology ?
[10:47:23] <noodl> It'd not. But we want to use Java specifically to avoid the traps we've fallen into using PHP.
[10:48:14] <noodl> It strikes me that a solid framework choice will enable us to start writing re-usable code. Our existing crap is not like that.
[10:48:27] <noodl> But, the technology choices are certainly not set in stone.
[10:48:42] <roots-> you will fall into other traps
[10:48:55] <roots-> and it might help you writing such code yes
[10:48:57] <roots-> but not per se
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[10:49:23] <roots-> eg when you look at drupal, it is php but its code is modular and there is little coupling between modules you can reuse things here and there
[10:49:55] <noodl> Yes, drupal is well designed. It's not our contention that PHP can only be used to write crap code.
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[10:49:56] <roots-> just saying that this depends on your work at least as much as on the underlying tech
[10:50:10] <roots-> drupal is very simple too
[10:50:14] <noodl> Clearly not programming environment can stop crap programmers from being crap.
[10:50:22] <roots-> i like it a lot
[10:50:32] <roots-> indeed
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[10:51:20] <roots-> i believe the core concepts here are ways of communication between modules that depends on abstract ideas like  listeners, selections, commands, services
[10:51:40] <roots-> allows independence of modules (where it makes sense)
[10:52:13] <The_Vulture> for a framework like that in Java you could try something like Tapestry
[10:52:18] <roots-> eg some code will be standalone, other modules with have module dependencies
[10:52:28] <roots-> yeah tapestry i heard good stuff about it
[10:52:32] <The_Vulture> not sure how far it's got since the last time I looked at it nearly 4 years ago, never quite got around to trying it in detail myself
[10:53:15] <The_Vulture> I certainly don't mind Hibernate, not sure if Tapestry is orthogonal to DB related stuff or advocates another access mechanism.
[10:53:55] <themoves> while programming well is something noodl and I can trust each other to do we are trying to protect our company from employing bad programmers after we leave
[10:54:15] <themoves> whole a framework isn't certain to do that it might minimise the risk
[10:54:23] <themoves> s/whole/while
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[10:55:56] <noodl> I like the look of Tapestry too, and WebWork. But we have a chicken and egg thing going on. We're too far down the line now to start programming crap model one systems with jsp just so we can learn by our mistakes all over again.
[10:56:23] <noodl> Hence the need for mentoring, and my own efforts to pick a series of frameworkds as a starting point.
[10:56:52] <roots-> well the thing is that the word "framework" indicates a fundamental ultimate dependency for all your code
[10:57:15] <roots-> in that respect osgi or even SOA make some sense
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[10:58:34] <noodl> soa looks attractive to me.
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[10:59:03] <noodl> We're ultimately going to have many disparate systems needing access to a central content repository.
[10:59:25] <noodl> So http+xml+fluff will help us to distribute things effectively.
[11:00:18] <noodl> Let's make this simpler though, if you don't mind.
[11:00:52] <noodl> I have my reservations about tomcat too. (restarting it is a pain for one).
[11:01:34] <noodl> Do you recommend an alternative? jetty, weblogic, websphere, sun-something perhaps?
[11:02:01] <noodl> (I'm not trolling here, just asking your opinion. Tell me to go figure if you like).
[11:02:12] <roots-> i dont know seriously
[11:02:20] <roots-> you know    www.theserverside.com ??
[11:02:34] <noodl> nope
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[11:02:49] <roots-> maybe you can get some inspiration there
[11:02:50] <KingNato> noodl: If you think tomcat is a pain, you want to stay far away from Weblogic and Websphere, IME
[11:03:03] <roots-> i used to install/admin/work with websphere 3.51
[11:03:12] <roots-> it was a true unuable piece of shit
[11:03:16] <roots-> unusable
[11:03:31] <noodl> Do you see our issue though? Our framework choices may not be especially well guided, but unless we can somebody sufficiently opinionated in here to help us, we just have to bundle through our own mistakes.
[11:03:48] <roots-> it makes sense to leverage someone's experience yes
[11:03:50] <noodl> KingNato: Noted, thanks.
[11:04:10] <roots-> provided that someone really has the experience
[11:04:48] <noodl> This is all themoves fault really. I'd choose Python instead <g>
[11:04:51] <noodl> *ducks*
[11:05:07] * themoves throws the desk at noodl
[11:05:52] <roots-> did you check out theserverside ?
[11:06:00] <noodl> will do.
[11:06:05] <roots-> it uses tapestry btw
[11:07:51] <noodl> roots-: btw, wtf is osgi?
[11:08:03] <Bevin> noodl: to choose a framework, list what you find important beforehand independently and validate that against the choices that are out there
[11:09:09] <Bevin> noodl: also make sure to look at what sets each one apart and what new things they offer, don't only compare common things
[11:09:40] <roots-> noodl: www.osgi.org
[11:10:25] <roots-> eclipse.org has a free impl
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[11:10:53] <roots-> it has its usecases, not necessarily for you though
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[11:12:24] <Guard][an> hello ppl
[11:13:12] <noodl> Bevin: True. Ok, in a nutshell we need: Model/View separation (templates or xslt, either will do). Help with input validation (struts is a plus here). Help with caching expensive operations like xslt transformations. Flexible authentication support.
[11:13:21] <noodl> Those are the main points.
[11:13:29] <Guard][an> is there a way to prevent javadoc to put the date of generation in every html file it spits out ? it's really annoying when the documentation is stored in the source code managment server
[11:13:37] <roots-> now the input validation from struts is going to tie you to struts in other ways too
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[11:13:46] <roots-> besides that it sucks and is trivial shit only anyhow
[11:14:01] <themoves> The fact remains that we clearly need guidance.  roots- fancy coming to the sunny north east for a week or know anyone with appropriate experienced that would?
[11:14:12] <Bevin> noodl: sounds like most modern frameworks will help you out there
[11:14:24] <My2Cents> Can someone test my chat applet at http://overflowd.game-server.cc/app/playme.php and tell me if they get any error messages while loading in the console?
[11:14:39] <roots-> themoves: thx, but i am employed already, you would have to talk to my boss
[11:14:44] <Bevin> noodl: you can easily include a caching library is the framework doesn't provide the facility
[11:14:48] <roots-> and i think i couldnt contribute that much
[11:14:54] <roots-> its not really my field
[11:15:05] <roots-> doing rich clients mostly
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[11:17:03] <My2Cents> why does everyone always disappear when i ask a favor?
[11:17:04] <noodl> Hmm. Ok, thanks guys. Perhaps I'll take another look at tapestry and spend some time evaluating some other servlet containers first. Still, if anybody knows of anyone who could spend a (paid, obviously) week here mentoring we'd like to hear it.
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[11:19:23] <helter> My2Cents: It doesn't load in my box
[11:19:40] <My2Cents> no console error messages either?
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[11:21:14] <helter> My2Cents: let me try again
[11:22:30] <helter> My2Cents: it's running now
[11:22:40] <My2Cents> asking for a username?
[11:22:55] <helter> yes
[11:23:01] <My2Cents> thank you very much
[11:23:07] <helter> no problem
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[11:25:27] <noodl> Guard][an: I'm not java expert (see above) but I'd say that you probably shouldn't be version controlling your generated javadoc.
[11:26:47] <Bevin> noodl: if you do a lot of xslt
[11:26:52] <Bevin> noodl: look at cocoon too
[11:26:58] <noodl> oh christ.
[11:27:07] <noodl> I have, Bevin, believe me :)
[11:27:15] <Bevin> noodl: ok :-)
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[11:27:24] <everwicked> hello
[11:27:24] <noodl> To this day I still can't figure out wtf cocoon is supposed to be.
[11:27:32] <everwicked> a pile of crap?
[11:27:50] <Bevin> noodl: and even though I'm biased, since I'm the author, you might want to look at RIFE too
[11:28:02] <Bevin> noodl: it's huge afaik, but I never used it
[11:28:10] <Bevin> noodl: I just know some people using cocoon
[11:28:12] <noodl> It's ability to do funky things with XML is unrivalled, but it seems to me that the pipeline/everything-is-xml approach is overkill.
[11:28:16] <Bevin> noodl: with good results
[11:28:26] <Bevin> noodl: *nod*
[11:28:37] <everwicked> does anyone know what's the fastest? apache2+modjk+tomcat5 / tomcat5 standalone / jetty?
[11:28:44] <The_Vulture> hey there Bevin - how's RIFE going anyway?
[11:28:50] <Bevin> The_Vulture: very well
[11:28:55] <The_Vulture> good good
[11:29:06] <Bevin> The_Vulture: got lots of media coverage
[11:29:15] <Bevin> The_Vulture: and conference talks
[11:29:18] <The_Vulture> ooh, shiny :)
[11:29:19] <noodl> http://rifers.org/
[11:29:21] <noodl> ?
[11:29:30] <Bevin> noodl: yes
[11:30:10] <nater> the_vulture: hey, you're still here!
[11:30:27] <Bevin> noodl: http://rifers.org/blogs/gbevin/2005/10/11/rife_misconceptions
[11:30:33] <Bevin> noodl: you might wanna read that too
[11:30:37] <noodl> k
[11:31:28] <Bevin> The_Vulture: actually, getting 1.0 releases out did a lot
[11:31:38] <Bevin> The_Vulture: as did the new website
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[11:31:59] <dmiles_akf> http://alnk.org/crankyrag - Spineless doll actually allows you to place the head in it's twinky hole
[11:32:45] <Bevin> noodl: also, if you're interested in swing-like web components, take a look at Wicket
[11:32:59] <Bevin> noodl: if you're into their approach it's quite nice
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[11:34:13] <Bevin> noodl: and if you're looking for straightforward MVC2 with simplicity, take a look at Webwork 2
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[11:35:31] <TPC> whats the best place to do some exiting cleanup in a java app? I did it in the WindowClosing event of the main gui, but that won't get exectued if you, for example, run the program from a terminal and then exit the program by closing the terminal.
[11:37:27] <roots-> there is shutdown hooks in Runtime
[11:37:38] <roots-> also there is runfinalizers on exit
[11:37:45] <roots-> i rather use the first than the second
[11:37:48] <TPC> ok
[11:37:59] <roots-> preferably an app requires only little "cleanup"
[11:38:36] <Bevin> TPC: they are not guaranteed to be run though
[11:38:54] <roots-> nothing is
[11:39:24] <Bevin> roots-: I mean even in normal situtations
[11:39:28] <TPC> its a lan chat app, and I want to send out a 'quit' message when exiting the program, so the others using the chat will know about it
[11:39:41] <TPC> whats the best place to do it?
[11:39:51] <Bevin> TPC: don't rely on the shutdown hooks for doing that
[11:40:26] <Bevin> TPC: imho this is just another event that you send when the quit action occurs, you handle that in the related chat message sending layer then
[11:40:59] <roots-> a hardkill will remove your app anyhow
[11:41:03] <nater> i still can't get this god damned image to load/display
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[11:41:29] <DiabloHor> morning :D
[11:41:39] <nater> http://hashphp.org/pastebin?pid=5133
[11:41:53] <TPC> I guess I would have to do something similar to irc:s ping timeout, just to be sure
[11:42:01] <roots-> nater: put it in your current working directory
[11:42:04] <roots-> and it will load fine
[11:42:08] <TPC> but it would be nice to have it in a place where its as likely as possible to be sent out
[11:42:10] <roots-> as a side note, thats a stupid idea
[11:42:22] <roots-> you use this in an applet btw ?
[11:42:43] <nater> nope
[11:43:11] <roots-> nater: http://hashphp.org/pastebin?pid=5150
[11:43:11] <roots-> try this
[11:43:20] <roots-> put the image in the SAME directory as the SplashCanvas.class
[11:43:22] <nater> and it was in the cwd
[11:43:35] <roots-> this is much better anyhow
[11:43:37] <roots-> works inside jar files too
[11:43:59] <nater> just a sec
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[11:44:52] <DiabloHor> could any one explain me what the easiest way is to separate the user interface from the business logic
[11:45:49] <DiabloHor> or the most used method besides mvc?
[11:45:53] <roots-> simple or reasonable ?
[11:46:02] <DiabloHor> reasonable
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[11:48:37] <roots-> are business logic and logic complementary things ?
[11:49:43] <DiabloHor> yes
[11:49:52] <DiabloHor> it's more like
[11:50:04] <DiabloHor> ejb -> output -> my question ->user interface
[11:50:13] <DiabloHor> the part of my question I got no clue on how to do it
[11:50:20] <nater> roots-: still isn't working... i really don't know what i'm doing wrong
[11:50:37] <roots-> good ol' "isn't working"
[11:50:58] <roots-> your computer explodes or what is the symptom ?
[11:51:03] <nater> well, i can't really be much more specific than that i don't know if it's loading the image, but it still isn't dispaying it
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[11:53:09] <roots-> ok, well what does System.err.println ("image " + getClass().getResource("splash.gif"));  print ?
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[11:58:35] <nater> got it! traced it back to the calling class... was missing a method call. figured it out when your suggestion didn't print anything to the console
[11:58:45] <nater> i feel like such a moron... thanks for they help
[12:02:26] <TPC> what is a good cross-platform way of saving some preferences of an app so you can use them again the next time you run the app?
[12:02:46] <nater> properties?
[12:03:00] <TPC> eh?
[12:03:02] <nater> thats what i'm going to use
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[12:03:44] <nater> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/api/java/util/Properties.html
[12:03:53] <TPC> ok, I'll check that
[12:03:53] <TPC> thanks
[12:04:06] <nater> np
[12:05:26] <roots-> i recommend properties
[12:05:31] <roots-> you could use java.util.preferences though
[12:05:38] <roots-> if you need listeners and dont have your own infrastructure
[12:05:54] <roots-> eg your properties view can listen to "properties.background" change
[12:06:37] <Bevin> preferences are handy
[12:08:00] <roots-> nater: use the getResource() regardless
[12:08:06] <roots-> it is much better in several ways
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[12:08:42] <StarScream> when writing files in java , how do i get it to write them out with different permissions ?
[12:08:48] <StarScream> i.e 764
[12:09:21] <roots-> individually ?
[12:09:35] <roots-> since java is not unix aware you need some jni plugin there
[12:09:43] <roots-> or invoke chmod via Runtime
[12:09:59] <roots-> if it is just the creation mask for new files/dirs, check umask
[12:10:03] <roots-> unix tool
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[12:10:16] <roots-> shell built-in
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[12:11:40] <nater> roots-: got a link detailing that? i'd like to know why
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[12:16:11] <Epesh> morning
[12:18:20] <nater> moin
[12:19:08] <Epesh> dadgum germans should speak english like the rest of america does!
[12:19:31] <nater> i'm only part german
[12:19:52] <Epesh> then speak only part german!
[12:19:59] <roots-> ~resource
[12:20:00] * Epesh mutters about germanites
[12:20:00] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'resource leak' might be appropriate:
[12:20:02] <javabot> roots-, resource leak is http://jqa.tmorris.net/GetQAndA.action?qids=38&showAnswers=true
[12:20:09] <roots-> ~getResource
[12:20:10] <javabot> roots-, I have no idea what getResource is.
[12:20:18] <roots-> well check the java tutorial
[12:20:23] <roots-> good moin Epesh
[12:20:23] <doc|work> americans speak English? spell colour....
[12:20:31] <Epesh> colour
[12:20:38] <Epesh> c o l o u r, colour
[12:20:40] <doc|work> now spell it the way you normally do :)
[12:20:46] <Epesh> that is the way I normally do.
[12:20:52] <roots-> city centre
[12:20:52] <Epesh> See my blog for evidence.
[12:20:53] <doc|work> really?
[12:20:59] <doc|work> most don't.
[12:21:10] <teralaser> cauleur
[12:21:11] <Epesh> doc|work: most americans are idiots.
[12:21:15] * Epesh is being generous
[12:21:16] <Kallistor> hehe
[12:21:18] <doc|work> yo usaid that, not me :)
[12:21:31] * doc|work curses typos
[12:21:49] <Epesh> doc|work: I always say that.
[12:21:55] <Epesh> I think people, in general, are stupid.
[12:22:12] <teralaser> Yes, and that is why they have the highest GDP per citizen etc.
[12:22:50] <Kallistor> GDP ?
[12:22:56] <Epesh> teralaser: that's called "working." They may be stupid, but they work. Constantly.
[12:23:05] <Epesh> Kallistor: gross domestic product.
[12:23:13] <Kallistor> ah
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[12:27:05] <KingNato> teralaser: The US does not have the highest GDP per capita in the world
[12:27:20] <teralaser> ah, well, 2nd highest then.
[12:27:31] <teralaser> and perhaps excluding Luxembourg
[12:27:43] <teralaser> didn't count those oil barons in Norway
[12:28:44] * KingNato wonders what would happen to US GDP if the rest of the world stopped throwing money at US borrowers
[12:29:47] <Kallistor> hell would break loose
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[12:30:24] <teralaser> nah
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[12:30:31] <teralaser> $ would deflate probably
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[12:30:55] <Kallistor> that's already happening
[12:30:59] <Kallistor> or happened
[12:31:06] <teralaser> indeed
[12:31:09] <Kallistor> see the euro - dollar exchange rates
[12:31:28] <teralaser> but it was a bit overrated and the euro a bit undervalued because of lack of confidence
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[12:32:03] <terence_> does sorting two lists have same and then later merging them has same complexity than first merging and than sorting?
[12:32:48] <KingNato> terence_: Yes
[12:33:06] <KingNato> If you're talking asymptotic complexity, that is
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[12:33:35] <terence_>  asymptotic? i mean exact same no of turns
[12:35:04] <KingNato> terence_: Then it depends entirely on what sorting algorithm you use
[12:35:52] <terence_> and what should i use too have same? or is there one which performs better on one of the two approaches..
[12:36:15] <KingNato> E.g. sorting, then merging, is exactly how mergesort works, so the complexity would be identical
[12:36:37] <KingNato> For bubble sort, sorting, then merging, will take fewer operations
[12:37:27] <roots-> hubblesort sucks, you must own a telescope
[12:37:34] <roots-> </fun>
[12:37:58] <KingNato> roots-: But it lets you sort things really far away, in case you need to
[12:39:55] <Epesh> but occasionally they're fuzzy
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[12:51:49] <MrEntropy> yo
[12:51:51] <paulweb515> mornin'
[12:52:08] <MrEntropy> is there any good tutorial about creating your own swing widgets? i've googled to no avail
[12:52:48] <{Mike}> If I'm getting data from a database, based on form input, and sticking it onto a jspx page, what is the "best" way of doing this? Servlets returning the whole page, servlets returning the query results or what?
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[12:58:11] <nater> ugh, gotta do my reflection code tomorrow... errr today
[12:58:44] <nater> got squat done tonight
[12:58:48] <terence_> how does a repeat until loop in java look like? except while , break
[13:00:04] <nater> do while?
[13:00:11] <nater> for?
[13:00:25] <The_Vulture> terence_: what's a "repeat until" loop?
[13:00:34] <nater> hell, just a plain while loop
[13:00:53] <hatOFF> anyone seen mohadib lately online?
[13:01:09] <terence_> KingNato:  TreeSet is sorted set .. if i use TreeSet.addAll(), do you think it minds the complexity if the added collection is sorted or not?
[13:01:37] <terence_> do {} while {} ?
[13:01:44] <terence_> ahem while()
[13:02:01] <hatOFF> terence_, do you know to work with sockets in java?
[13:02:22] <terence_> no in java, i am new to java since 3 weeks
[13:02:37] <hatOFF> damn
[13:02:47] <The_Vulture> hatOFF: do you have a specific question?
[13:03:18] <hatOFF> The_Vulture, i need an ideea on how to create a lobby ( a waiting room for the players ).
[13:03:36] <hatOFF> I'm creating multiplayer games and using Java to create the server side apps.
[13:03:52] <The_Vulture> hatOFF: so what's the problem?
[13:03:57] <hatOFF> So, I made the socket server and I'm having real difficulties on how to create the lobby room.
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[13:04:24] <hatOFF> I just don't know how to create a THREAD into another THREAD or if that's the way how it's being done.
[13:04:33] <hatOFF> Do you have an ideea about the 'lobby' term?
[13:05:10] <The_Vulture> it's a rather high level/vague term..
[13:05:16] <The_Vulture> have you read sun's networking tutorial?
[13:05:20] <hatOFF> Yes.
[13:05:34] <The_Vulture> so what exactly is your problem?
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[13:05:41] <hatOFF> The_Vulture, ever played any Yahoo multiplayer games?
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[13:06:11] <terence_> why do you need thread in thread?
[13:06:32] <hatOFF> terence_... Because I don't have any other ideea.
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[13:06:55] <hatOFF> So, I'd have to start a thread and if playersno > 4 then start new thread
[13:06:56] <terence_> but there is no poblem .. do do that juts use thread as memeber of thread?
[13:07:18] <hatOFF> Any online reference?
[13:07:33] <nater> it kinda sounds like you should rethink your design
[13:07:43] <terence_> to me too
[13:07:44] <hatOFF> I think so.
[13:07:45] <hatOFF> :)
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[13:08:26] <terence_> you simply need a syncronized que for you incomming messages and one for your outgoing
[13:08:47] <hatOFF> I did that.
[13:09:02] <hatOFF> public synchronized void broadcastMessage(Client client, String message)
[13:09:06] <terence_> then one thread which writes them down from the socket to the que, and another which works the lobby logic
[13:09:44] <terence_> getting messages from and to the que.., that would be  my first general idea to this
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[13:10:06] <hatOFF> What do you mean by que?
[13:10:10] <hatOFF> wb dibblego.
[13:10:16] <dibblego> hello
[13:10:18] <nater> like a fifo buffer
[13:10:26] <damian666> hi folks, i got an odd problem on linux, when try to compile a project to a jar file and using there the manifest file (even if i use the one created by eclipse) it gets compiled but the main-class is not found. the comman i use for compiling looks like this jar -cvmf /home/thomas/eclipsesave/ogame/Manifest.txt tester.jar /home/thomas/eclipsesave/ogame/bin/thomas/*.class     is that line correct?
[13:10:46] <terence_> well ,, you incomming traffic could overhelm you processing unit .. you need que in case you have to drop messages
[13:10:50] <dibblego> damian666: is the resulting manifest file correct?
[13:11:23] <terence_> this whole thing is kind of async?
[13:11:42] <damian666> dibblego: think so its createt by eclipse, but practically just havin the info in which manifest version and Main-Class: thomas.Htmlread (which is the class having the main in it)
[13:11:59] <dibblego> damian666: check manually; not through the abstraction (Eclipse)
[13:12:28] <terence_> of couse you have tcp(if not using udp) which regulates if no acks are send back, but you still can have drops
[13:12:48] <hatOFF> dibblego would you like to audit a little my socket server?
[13:13:04] <dibblego> no thanks
[13:13:07] <hatOFF> :)
[13:13:10] <hatOFF> thought so
[13:13:31] * hatOFF takes his deagle out and puts it on dibblego's head. AUDIT IT!
[13:13:36] <terence_> hatOFF:  i am quite sure , there are many chat server examples in java.. that is what you would need
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[13:14:01] <hatOFF> terence_, yes... that's with what I also started but things got complicated on the way...
[13:14:13] <damian666> dibblego: did that and created an own one lookin like this: Manifest-Version: 1.0 \n Main-Class: thomas.Htmlread \n Class-Path: /usr/lib/j2se/1.4/lib/ \n  (\n here just to show that it has a new line after each)
[13:14:27] <hatOFF> There's no chat server that has a lobby though :(
[13:14:30] <hatOFF> Like, with rooms...
[13:14:39] <dibblego> damian666: so what's the issue exactly?
[13:14:43] <hatOFF> If it were, I would be happy.
[13:14:48] <nater> hatoff: there are probably tons actually
[13:14:58] <hatOFF> open source?
[13:14:59] <damian666> dibblego: when executing it tells me main not found
[13:15:00] <dibblego> hatOFF: there are only about 43 trillion, so "none" may not be quite true
[13:15:14] <hatOFF> really?
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[13:15:19] <dibblego> damian666: if there is a Main-Class entry in the manifest file, it won't say that
[13:15:20] <hatOFF> now why didn't you say so
[13:15:25] <nater> dibblego:43000000000001
[13:15:30] <dibblego> it might help to stop paraphrasing and producing something real
[13:15:55] <MrEntropy> anyone? it really seems like no one has documented how to do this
[13:16:15] <nater> mrentropy: i missed your question...
[13:16:21] <damian666> dibblego: but it does :( thats why i'm asking in here, i read through the docus of java and it should be correct the manifest file is according to the description and my compiling command should be ok too, right
[13:16:34] <MrEntropy> is there a tutorial on creating your own swing widgets?
[13:16:36] <dibblego> damian666: then you have provided misinformation
[13:16:55] <dibblego> MrEntropy: class X extends JComponent{} // the rest is in the API spec.
[13:17:05] <nater> mrentropy: oh... hmmm... not that i know of... anything specific you're trying to do?
[13:17:23] <MrEntropy> dibblego: yeah, i know that much, that doesn't really help me though
[13:17:42] <dibblego> MrEntropy: why not?
[13:18:18] <damian666> dibblego: nope i just used the command i wrote above with the manifest file. still having the same problem. but as far as i understand you the file and command looks correct ?
[13:18:20] <MrEntropy> dibblego: because not everything is self explanatory
[13:18:29] <dibblego> MrEntropy: that's why it is in the API spec.
[13:18:45] <nater> the api can be hard to understand sometimes
[13:19:05] <dibblego> damian666: either you are providing misinformation, or the jar command is not giving you that error message; I believe no other possibility (depite their remoteness)
[13:19:13] <MrEntropy> i'd preffer a more 'human' friendly approach with this
[13:19:26] <nater> mrentropy: is it something that's got something similar?
[13:19:40] <dibblego> MrEntropy: you mean, less acurate, fluffy, hugs, not quite right, with a mix of bullshit, approach?
[13:19:40] <damian666> dibblego: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: thomas/Htmlread
[13:19:43] <MrEntropy> dibblego: that's the thing, nothing in particular, i just want to learn how
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[13:19:53] <dibblego> damian666: so there's your problem, there is no such class as that
[13:19:53] <MrEntropy> dibblego: quit being a hardass
[13:20:08] <dibblego> MrEntropy: you mean, pointing out what might (still?) not be obvious?
[13:20:09] <nater> settle down...
[13:20:17] <MrEntropy> dibblego: yes
[13:20:32] <damian666> dibblego: sorry :) does it matter if there are other classes in that package having a main ? and yes the class is there cause in eclipse everything is working fine
[13:20:51] <dibblego> damian666: but it's not there; otherwise, it would find it, so it isn't, and it isn't
[13:20:56] <dibblego> open the jar and see for yourelf
[13:21:23] <damian666> dibblego: Htmlread.class is in :)
[13:21:32] <dibblego> MrEntropy: Sun tutorials for the fluffy crap; the API spec. for the less fluffy crap; unfortunately, no formal spec. exists
[13:21:42] <dibblego> damian666: the VM didn't say anything about that class
[13:21:52] <dibblego> it said thomas/Htmlread
[13:22:09] <nater> mrentropy: http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-04-1997/jw-04-step.html
[13:22:32] <damian666> dibblego: nope works as a jarm, yes it said thomas/Htmlread (the jar extracts it in a folder called thomas :)
[13:22:52] <dibblego> damian666: $50 says that class doesn't exist in the jat
[13:22:53] <dibblego> *jar
[13:22:57] <MrEntropy> dibblego: no sun tutorials for creating swing widgets that i could find
[13:23:23] <MrEntropy> nater: hmm, not really on the scope i wanted
[13:23:27] <dibblego> MrEntropy: I mean the swing tutorials; you prolly won't find anything specific, since class X extends JComponent is as fluffy as it gets
[13:23:45] <dibblego> the rest is already specified; anything else is merely redundant
[13:23:52] <MrEntropy> i was taking a chance, PERHAPS there was one, otherwise of course i'm down to the api
[13:24:12] <dibblego> the API spec. is much more formal and accurate (but incredible suboptimal); the lesser of the evils
[13:24:21] <nater> http://www.swtech.com/java/guidev/guicomp/
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[13:24:24] <damian666> dibblego: hmm sorry when extracting it extracts it to home/thomas and not only to thomas, is that a prob
[13:24:35] <dibblego> damian666: dunno, do you think?
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[13:25:02] <dibblego> http://jqa.tmorris.net/GetQAndA.action?qids=52&showAnswers=true  Why shouldn't an Integrated Development Environment (IDE) be used for learning Java?
[13:25:12] <MrEntropy> nater: hmm, not bad, thanks
[13:25:13] <dibblego> a user who is learning Java, and is using an IDE might perform the following actions.
[13:25:17] <nater> np
[13:25:18] <dibblego>  Encounter a java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError
[13:25:22] <nater> i'm off to bed, night all
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[13:25:32] <dibblego> I've even written an article about you damian666, you're famous! :)
[13:25:48] <MrEntropy> nater: although for awt, it should at least hint at the propper procedure
[13:25:52] <MrEntropy> oh, gone...
[13:26:34] <hatOFF> i only find .jar's!
[13:26:38] <damian666> dibblego: don't know that, an article about me :) thanks but i think i'm someone else :)
[13:26:50] <hatOFF> from 43 trillon's, google hides them all!
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[13:33:09] <onkarshinde> I have a JFrame with a JSplitPane and in right part of split pane I have one JTextPane. Is it possible that if I click some menu item this JTextPane will get all the focus, I mean fullscreen adn will hide all the rest components?
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[13:34:37] <eythian> anyone here know about SWT? The #eclipse channel is currently silent
[13:35:15] <teralaser> ~swt
[13:35:15] <javabot> teralaser, swt is the Standard Widget Toolkit - see http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/index.cgi/%7Echeckout%7E/platform-swt-home/main.html
[13:35:43] <onkarshinde> Can someone answer my question please?
[13:36:13] <teralaser> sure
[13:36:26] <onkarshinde> I have a JFrame with a JSplitPane and in right part of split pane I have one JTextPane. Is it possible that if I click some menu item this JTextPane will get all the focus, I mean fullscreen adn will hide all the rest components?
[13:36:27] <teralaser> ~fullscreen
[13:36:27] <javabot> teralaser, fullscreen is http://java.sun.com/tutorial/extra/fullscreen/index.html
[13:36:45] <teralaser> :D
[13:36:56] <onkarshinde> teralaser: I read it. But it doesn't say anything about how to display JTextPane in fullscreen mode.
[13:37:34] <roots-> there is "one touch expandable on the fucking jSPlitPane
[13:37:37] <roots-> but it sucks for real
[13:37:49] <roots-> you could setVisible(false) on the other half of the JSPlitPane
[13:37:55] <roots-> and set the dividersize to 0
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[13:39:51] <onkarshinde> roots-: That is okay. But then I other components like menubar will still be visible. I want only TextPane to get focus and other components to hide. Will I have to do this by using setVisible methods of all components?
[13:40:01] <terence_> i don't understand howto iterate on "entrySet().iterator();"
[13:40:20] <terence_> it return Map.Entry, but i can't define a variable with this typ
[13:40:59] <terence_> what does Class.Class mean ? is that a java inner class?
[13:41:08] <roots-> onkarshinde: nah, make a new undecorated JFrame
[13:41:19] <roots-> remove the component in question from the splitpane
[13:41:24] <roots-> add it to the JFrame.getContentPane()
[13:41:53] <onkarshinde> roots-: Ok. Will try that.
[13:42:13] <onkarshinde> roots-: Or perhaps JWindow instead of undecorated JFrame?
[13:44:53] <roots-> same thing
[13:45:06] <onkarshinde> roots-: Okay. Will try that.
[13:45:07] <roots-> after adding to the jframe do
[13:45:10] <roots-> or jwindow
[13:45:14] <roots-> getContentPane().validate();
[13:45:25] <onkarshinde> roots-: And what is that for?
[13:46:40] <damian666> dibblego: i went on the website you wrote and i copied the .java files to another dir, compiled them and packed it to jar with the same command (with the new dir for the class files), still havin the same prob :(
[13:46:58] <damian666> dibblego: did now everything by hand :)
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[13:47:53] <dibblego> damian666: you don't rock
[13:48:32] <damian666> dibblego: not now but sometimes i do :)
[13:48:59] <dibblego> no, you either rock or you don't; clearly you don't
[13:49:15] <roots-> onkarshinde: its for making it work
[13:49:18] <roots-> onkarshinde: too long to type here
[13:49:29] <onkarshinde> roots-: Ok. Thanks for help
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[14:00:24] <paulweb515> terence_: Yep, it's an inner class, and you can define a variable:  Map.Entry entry = null;
[14:01:27] <terence_> paulweb, nope that does not work . but i found a explanation..
[14:01:56] <ricky_clarkson> The_Vulture: I think dibblego doesn't mind justifying himself, but struggles to do so.
[14:02:00] <ricky_clarkson> paulweb515: Nested.
[14:02:17] <dibblego> I think I mind
[14:02:22] <dibblego> it's painful on IRC
[14:02:44] <ricky_clarkson> I don't find that.
[14:02:45] <paulweb515> Ooops, nested ...
[14:02:50] <dibblego> I certainly do
[14:02:54] <ricky_clarkson> I find it makes me more concise.
[14:03:10] <ricky_clarkson> Since I cba explaining it hugely again and again.#
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[14:03:26] <dibblego> I find verbal discussion helps me; IRC is just to tell others in as short as I possibly can
[14:03:41] <ricky_clarkson> Fair enough.
[14:03:57] <ricky_clarkson> I don't really get much verbal discussion because my workplace isn't primarily programmers.
[14:04:02] <roots-> physical arguments are more rewarding than verbal ones
[14:04:05] <roots-> if you come out winner
[14:04:17] <ricky_clarkson> I know a few programmers socially, but they're JSP hackers.
[14:04:35] <roots-> what about the students ?
[14:04:39] <ricky_clarkson> Except one colossal German girl who was a C++ programmer.
[14:04:49] <roots-> must be a few bright ones amongst them
[14:04:55] <ricky_clarkson> roots-: Most of those aren't up to the standard.
[14:04:59] <paulweb515> terence_: It doesn't work ... I just wrote Map.Entry entry = (Map.Entry)i.next() and it worked for me
[14:05:03] <paulweb515> ?
[14:05:15] <terence_> yes, that works
[14:05:22] <ricky_clarkson> paulweb515: Any reason not to use generics here?
[14:05:27] <The_Vulture> paulweb515: how's about you use generics?
[14:05:35] <paulweb515> I'm on 1.4.2 ...
[14:05:40] <ricky_clarkson> paulweb515: Why?
[14:05:48] <terence_> i originally used the var declaration outside the loop without direct setting the value from the iterator
[14:05:58] <terence_> that does not work ..
[14:06:01] <paulweb515> Mostly because I haven't upgraded yet
[14:06:02] * ricky_clarkson does that head pointing thing that Chandler from Friends did, while looking at The_Vulture.
[14:06:16] <roots-> you watch friends ?
[14:06:16] <paulweb515> Also, the code I write has to be 1.4.2 compliant
[14:06:16] <ricky_clarkson> terence_: Any reason not to use generics?
[14:06:21] <ricky_clarkson> roots-: Not voluntarily.
[14:06:28] <ricky_clarkson> paulweb515: Why?
[14:06:34] <ricky_clarkson> [I used to have a reason]
[14:06:35] <roots-> ok we do a lot for women
[14:06:36] * bpalmer does that "dressing in tight clothes" that some of the others from Friends did
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[14:06:45] <ricky_clarkson> roots-: Exactly.
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[14:06:53] <paulweb515> Why 1.4.2. compliant?  Because the eclipse platform has to be ... and until they update the plan, so do I :-)
[14:06:58] <ricky_clarkson> I make her sit through snooker occasionaly.
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[14:07:06] <ricky_clarkson> paulweb515: Eclipse 3.1 works with 1.5.
[14:07:23] <ricky_clarkson> Oh, I see, you're coding Eclipse?
[14:07:29] <paulweb515> Yes, but the eclipse SDK code itself is 1.4.2
[14:07:41] <ricky_clarkson> Even the code that handles 1.5 syntax?
[14:07:47] <paulweb515> Yup
[14:07:48] <ricky_clarkson> Haha, that must be annoying.
[14:08:10] <paulweb515> They're trying to pick a version to go to 1.5 right now
[14:08:52] <ricky_clarkson> Hmm, washer should be washing.
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[14:09:34] * ricky_clarkson hates washing machine doors.
[14:09:43] <ricky_clarkson> Maybe I should leave the doors dirty. ;)
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[14:11:48] <ricky_clarkson> paulweb515: Which bit of Eclipse?
[14:12:00] <terence_> in a sorted set, i would loop with a for (top-down or bottom-top) , wouldn't i ?  i have no idea what would happen with the order if using the iterator
[14:12:01] <ricky_clarkson> [are you working on]
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[14:12:35] <ricky_clarkson> terence_: Yes, loop with a for.  It will go from the lowest to the highest.
[14:13:01] <terence_> well,tx
[14:13:02] <paulweb515> ricky_clarkson: I'm on Platform UI (org.eclipse.ui.* packages) we work with the Platform core, team, and swt guys
[14:13:09] <Epesh> poor fellow
[14:13:21] <ricky_clarkson> paulweb515: So did you guys read my lame blog?  http://rickyclarkson.blogspot.com
[14:13:32] <paulweb515> I read it yesterday
[14:13:43] <ricky_clarkson> Any comments?
[14:14:33] <ricky_clarkson> I suppose my moaning is largely about the Java UI stuff, not Platform UI.
[14:15:05] <Epesh> ricky_clarkson: the only compiler on your system is 1.5?
[14:15:08] <Epesh> That's not true...
[14:15:39] <ricky_clarkson> The only one I've explicitly installed.
[14:15:47] <ricky_clarkson> Why, because Eclipse comes with a 1.4 compiler?
[14:15:48] <Epesh> sure, but it's not the only one you have
[14:16:00] <Epesh> right, eclipse has its own compiler
[14:16:01] <paulweb515> ricky_clarkson: I thought it paralleled my own introduction into eclipse (I've been Emacs+JDE For years now)
[14:16:07] <ricky_clarkson> Well I didn't ask it to.
[14:16:39] <ricky_clarkson> I gave it an ant build.xml, which is pretty clear in that I might build outside Eclipse.
[14:16:40] <paulweb515> Eclipse does some stuff, and occasionally it's missing that last piece of functionality that you really need
[14:16:41] <Epesh> ricky_clarkson: you didn't ask it to what?
[14:16:46] <ricky_clarkson> Didn't I have source="1.5"?
[14:16:48] * ricky_clarkson looks again.
[14:17:02] <Epesh> ricky_clarkson: in doing so you undercut most of eclipse' best features for java programmers
[14:17:15] <ricky_clarkson> Epesh: What like?
[14:17:40] <Epesh> the always-compiled stuff
[14:17:54] <Epesh> change a file, move to another file, and INSTANT feedback as to whethr it compiles or not
[14:18:10] <ricky_clarkson> Well, Eclipse could have asked me which version to use if I didn't make it clear by using source="1.5".
[14:18:24] <Epesh> it sure could have
[14:18:30] <Epesh> or you could have told theproject that it was 1.5
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[14:18:37] <Epesh> or something
[14:18:43] <ricky_clarkson> Epesh: Eclipse can compile alongside ant without problems.
[14:18:45] <roots-> autobuild is annoying
[14:18:48] <ricky_clarkson> So I can use both.
[14:18:51] <Epesh> the blog sounded like whining to me, and I'm not pleased with eclipse as a rule
[14:18:54] <terence_> ricky_clarkson:  uh, the set has ho get(iint) method, only iterator
[14:18:55] <roots-> on slow hardware
[14:19:04] <ricky_clarkson> And really, you can tell whether something compiles without actually generating .class files.
[14:19:09] <roots-> eclipse is annoying often though, but i work a lot of with it
[14:19:11] <roots-> thats probably why
[14:19:29] <roots-> coding plugins/rcp stuff that is
[14:19:30] <paulweb515> The less Eclipse asks you, the better it's functionality seems
[14:19:46] <roots-> btw, i have a swt datechooser i should put on my webpage
[14:19:48] <ricky_clarkson> paulweb515: Except when it makes an ASS-U-ME.
[14:19:53] <terence_> ricky_clarkson:  i would have to covert it to array first?
[14:19:54] <ricky_clarkson> Or an assumption.
[14:20:08] <ricky_clarkson> terence_: Use the iterator.
[14:20:13] <ricky_clarkson> ~tell terence_ about foreach
[14:20:13] <javabot> terence_, foreach is http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/foreach.html
[14:20:22] <Epesh> paulweb515: eclipse is very useful in a lot of cases, but in others, it blows
[14:20:24] <omry|work> anynoe managed to use Java to connect to TAO? (C++ CORBA Server)? I keep getting org.omg.CORBA.OBJECT_NOT_EXIST exceptions for basic things I try.  (see http://pastebin.com/408813)
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[14:20:34] <Epesh> it's just the way it is
[14:20:45] <paulweb515> ricky_clarkson: I would classify your blog as comment, not whining ... if you want to see whining, you should check out oru bugzilla :-)
[14:20:59] <ricky_clarkson> paulweb515: I hope you're not like mozilla's devs!
[14:21:02] <ricky_clarkson> ~why not mozilla
[14:21:03] <javabot> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84128
[14:21:06] <ricky_clarkson> Worth a read.
[14:21:59] <ricky_clarkson> I got a carrier bag caught in my bicycle wheel on the way home from work.. grr.
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[14:23:35] <timing> Hello!
[14:23:51] <hatOFF> Does someone know a .java open source multi room chat app?
[14:24:00] <hatOFF> Hi timing!
[14:24:20] <timing> can i talk about swt here?
[14:24:33] <Epesh> timing: yes
[14:24:36] <timing> hatOFF: just search for java irc client
[14:24:38] <Epesh> but it's pointless, SWT sucks :)
[14:24:56] <timing> well it's not very swt specific, it's just i want to install the jar file system wide on windows
[14:25:00] <paulweb515> Epesh: I find it mostly OK ... I get the impression that since it's open source, there's bugs that get fixed based on what the developers want to do instead of what the marketting guys think need fixing
[14:25:00] <ricky_clarkson> hatOFF: jirc iirc, stfw
[14:25:13] <Epesh> paulweb515: you find SWT mostly okay?
[14:25:32] <paulweb515> Given that my idea of a GUI is a big window with text in it ...
[14:25:43] <paulweb515> :-)
[14:25:56] <timing> i have this .jar file with some .dll's where do i have to put those in my filesystem so it;s in my classpath?
[14:26:02] <ricky_clarkson> paulweb515: Developers often make decisions that don't benefit users, when allowed to.
[14:26:13] <Epesh> paulweb515: so what are you comparing it to?
[14:26:19] <Epesh> timing: don't install it system-wide
[14:26:27] <Epesh> you're guaranteed to fuck up eclipse that way
[14:26:37] <timing> Epesh: why not? JMF can do it too
[14:27:04] <ricky_clarkson> ~tell timing about jpackage
[14:27:04] <javabot> timing, jpackage is http://www.jpackage.org/
[14:27:07] <Epesh> timing: installing jars system-wide is a great way to screw up your programs that USE those libraries.
[14:27:14] <ricky_clarkson> [and if that's not appropriate, tell us why ;) ]
[14:27:16] <paulweb515> Epesh:  I find SWT fine ... the theory is that it's trying to follow the native widget system (across 3 platforms)
[14:27:36] <Epesh> paulweb515: "trying." and not doing a great job.
[14:27:36] <timing> Epesh: okay so i have to put the swt.jar in a lib/ dir or so?
[14:27:43] <paulweb515> Epesh: I used to find Swing fine too ... it's got some better OO patterns
[14:27:48] <omry|work> timing, install your jars, and jar related dll's as locally as possible.
[14:27:49] <KingNato> paulweb515: The practice is, unfortunately, that on my Mac it feels only marginally more native
[14:27:55] <Epesh> IMO, I prefer swing's approach: "you will have these widgets available, whether the native lib has them or not."
[14:28:08] <Epesh> KingNato: and on solaris, it feels really bad :)
[14:28:12] <KingNato> Although that could be more due to Eclipse than SWT - I haven't used many other SWT apps
[14:28:32] <paulweb515> KingNato: Azureus is the one people mention is a good SWT app
[14:28:37] <paulweb515> a bit torrent client
[14:28:46] <ricky_clarkson> Limewire for Swing.
[14:28:54] <Epesh> paulweb515: I use it,yes
[14:29:08] <hatOFF> ricky_clarkson, i'm interrested in the SOURCE file of the SERVER.
[14:29:08] <omry|work> Epesh, if I am not mistaken, SWT provides Java implementations for systems that are missing certain widgets.
[14:29:11] <Epesh> EVery SWT app on solaris is like playing dice with dynamite
[14:29:30] <hatOFF> ricky_clarkson: I stfw but didn't find anything!
[14:29:37] <Epesh> omry|work: does it? It didn't, formerly - it aimed at a lowest-common-denominator for widgets
[14:29:43] <ricky_clarkson> hatOFF: ymmv.
[14:29:50] <omry|work> Epesh, you are confusign with AWT :)
[14:29:56] <Epesh> omry|work: no, I'm not. :)
[14:30:04] <KingNato> paulweb515: I've used Azureus, and didn't like it, but that was on Windows, so for different reasons
[14:30:23] <roots-> paulweb515: most annoying thing is the xp look and feel
[14:30:42] <hatOFF> ricky_clarkson: gfu
[14:30:45] <paulweb515> ricky_clarkson: developers sometimes make decisions based on "what would I do" + "what's easy to do" :-)
[14:30:52] <omry|work> Epesh, check swt class that begins with C. CCombobox for example.
[14:30:56] <ricky_clarkson> hatOFF: stfu
[14:30:59] <roots-> paulweb515: ever ran eclipse with xp buttons ?
[14:31:06] *** Stork is now known as stork
[14:31:11] <ricky_clarkson> hatOFF: http://www.pjirc.com/main.php
[14:31:11] <roots-> the coolbar on top has gaps that are hard to tolerate
[14:31:14] <hatOFF> ricky_clarkson: nystfu
[14:31:21] <hatOFF> thanks
[14:31:23] <paulweb515> In eclipse, that can be decent (when your audience is other developers) or painful (when you use RCP as the base for an application for real users)
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[14:31:35] <roots-> RCP is painful indeed
[14:31:41] *** npmccallum-work has quit IRC
[14:31:43] <ricky_clarkson> hatOFF: URL2 in http://www.google.com/search&q=java%20irc%20client
[14:31:44] <Drone> That URL gave the following error code: 404 Not Found
[14:31:56] <paulweb515> roots-: Naw, I develop on Linux (I love a job where I can work on Linux)
[14:31:58] <roots-> also annoying is that you cannot attach sources to plugin dependencies libs unless you use another eclipse for remote debugging
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[14:32:09] <roots-> paulweb515: i used to run linux from 1.2 for a few years only
[14:32:10] <ricky_clarkson> doubleplusungood.
[14:32:19] <Epesh> paulweb515: ?? People use RCP of eclipse as a convincing argument
[14:32:21] <roots-> when xp came out windows i stopped using linux
[14:32:30] <roots-> Epesh: rcp is a pain in the ass in real life
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[14:32:40] <Epesh> i.e., "And it can also be an RCP"
[14:32:46] <roots-> my swing rcp platform is better already and i just work on it for 5 evenings
[14:32:53] <ricky_clarkson> Why the hell would *anyone* choose a pedal harpsichord over a piano?
[14:32:57] <paulweb515> Epesh: SWT on solaris ... with GTK+ isn't too bad ... CDE/Motif support is crippled (and I mean crippled)
[14:32:58] <roots-> well ok that was a bit provocative
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[14:33:07] <roots-> i used to work as motif developer for years
[14:33:10] <roots-> motif is hard to deal with
[14:33:19] <roots-> besides that motif is so yesterday
[14:33:22] <ricky_clarkson> I did a few simple apps using motif.
[14:33:29] <ricky_clarkson> What's hard about it (can't remember)?
[14:33:29] <Epesh> paulweb515: I know
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[14:33:44] <Epesh> and it's jarring to run GTK on solaris and then have eclipse run with motif
[14:33:58] <Epesh> I thought it was a great day when SWT/GTK came out for solaris sparc
[14:34:04] <roots-> ricky_clarkson: i find c and motif hard in terms of learning curve
[14:34:18] <ricky_clarkson> Motif looks nice on Irix.
[14:34:29] <roots-> irix was nice yeah
[14:34:36] <roots-> for the time
[14:34:48] <ricky_clarkson> People still run it.
[14:34:48] <roots-> hda a few toasters at the uni
[14:34:51] <roots-> looked like toasters
[14:34:58] <roots-> s/^hda/had/
[14:34:59] <ricky_clarkson> E.g., www.nicve.salford.ac.uk
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[14:36:30] <paulweb515> roots-: I like the development time for RCP, and if you are creating a customer extensible application, having the eclipse platform stuff available for extension is less framework stuff to write ... when it works for my company's product direction
[14:36:42] <roots-> paulweb515: yes and no
[14:36:51] <roots-> i general i agree
[14:37:06] <Java_the_Hutt> For a typical small business J2EE application for a company intranetwork, should i go through a web application or a SWing/SWT/RCP based appliaction what do you think ?
[14:37:09] <roots-> i love the compare plugin from eclipse btw
[14:37:27] <roots-> i finally got out of the habit of using sdiff
[14:37:34] <ricky_clarkson> I want to write a programming language where whenever you add 1 to a variable you must tax others.
[14:37:57] <The_Vulture> roots-: vimdiff is prettier :)
[14:38:04] <roots-> ~vi
[14:38:05] <javabot> roots-, vi is http://www.io.com/~dierdorf/vi-emacs2.jpg
[14:38:15] <roots-> i am one of the cops in that one
[14:38:37] <paulweb515> roots-: haha
[14:38:42] <ricky_clarkson> :stickemup
[14:38:42] <The_Vulture> roots-: sucks to be you :)
[14:38:52] <Java_the_Hutt> anyone regarding my question ?
[14:39:06] <ricky_clarkson> Java_the_Hutt: I couldn't see past the buzzwords.
[14:39:07] <Epesh> web app is easier for your clients
[14:39:27] <Java_the_Hutt> Epesh: why is that so ?
[14:39:42] <ricky_clarkson> Java_the_Hutt: What percent of people already have a web browser?
[14:39:44] <paulweb515> Java_the_Hutt: It really depends on what your company is willing to support ... setting up tomcat + stuff and running J2EE+web services means you'll have to write DHTML, but people can just use their web browsers ...
[14:39:49] <Java_the_Hutt> ricky_clarkson: For a typical small business J2EE application for a company intranetwork, should i go through a web application or a SWing/SWT/RCP based appliaction what do you think ?
[14:39:53] <Epesh> Java_the_Hutt: because everyone has a browser installed, whereas Swing/SWT/RCP involves them installing extra stuff
[14:40:14] <Java_the_Hutt> installing the application is no problem
[14:40:18] <The_Vulture> if the intranet in question is small enough then deploying a few JREs isn't really going to be an issue
[14:40:19] <ricky_clarkson> Whenever a user has to do something, chances are they'll get confused.
[14:40:20] <Java_the_Hutt> for the company
[14:40:36] <paulweb515> Distributing little java apps (Swing, SWT, AWT, little green men) means more coding in Java, but then you have to take care of distribution (java web start or something)
[14:41:03] <Java_the_Hutt> What about an applet ?
[14:41:12] <ricky_clarkson> suck.
[14:41:15] <Java_the_Hutt> why ?
[14:41:16] <ricky_clarkson> Applets, that is.
[14:41:17] <paulweb515> I don't like applets
[14:41:25] <ricky_clarkson> Browser incompatibility.
[14:41:27] <Java_the_Hutt> for an intranetwork why does it suck ?
[14:41:28] <ricky_clarkson> Flash > applets.
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[14:41:36] <roots-> paulweb515: you agree that it is hard to explain to a customer why xp look and feel doesnt work right with eclipse, right ?
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[14:41:41] <Java_the_Hutt> Browser incompatiblity ?
[14:41:43] <ricky_clarkson> Java_the_Hutt: What if one of you likes Opera, or Konqueror.
[14:41:45] <roots-> all apps have xp buttons, but the eclipse/rcp app doesnt
[14:41:51] <ricky_clarkson> Afaik Java doesn't work with those.
[14:41:52] <omry|work> ricky_clarkson, Flash > Applets  => Flash > Java
[14:41:58] <Java_the_Hutt> wrong
[14:42:04] <ricky_clarkson> omry|work:
[14:42:05] <Java_the_Hutt> I run applets with my Konqueror
[14:42:10] <ricky_clarkson> omry|work: Applets != Java.
[14:42:32] <Logi> omry|work: in fact, Java > Applets
[14:42:38] <omry|work> ricky_clarkson, Applets can do almost anything Java can do.
[14:42:38] <paulweb515> roots-: I've never had the opportunity ... can I get an XP look and feel on Linux?
[14:43:02] <Logi> omry|work: by your logic, 2>1 => 2>4
[14:43:07] <ricky_clarkson> omry|work: There's a lot an (unsigned) applet can't do.
[14:43:11] <Java_the_Hutt> Basically why should i choose web applications over swing if application distribution or JRE is NOT an issue ?
[14:43:13] <roots-> paulweb515: not with eclipse
[14:43:13] <Clackwell> paulweb515: yes, in vmware
[14:43:16] <Clackwell> hallo everyone
[14:43:16] <r0bby_> paulweb515: use the gtk wimp theme
[14:43:19] <roots-> hi logi, Clackwell
[14:43:22] <bowyakka> omry|work, I would love to see an applet running a j2ee server
[14:43:26] <r0bby_> but that's if you're using gtk
[14:43:27] <omry|work> ricky_clarkson, true. but he can sign it.
[14:43:28] <roots-> (in reverse alphabetical order)
[14:43:36] * r0bby_ wonders if java has a gtk api
[14:43:37] <omry|work> bowyakka, he is talking about a client. don't get smart.
[14:43:40] <ricky_clarkson> Java_the_Hutt: Personally I'd choose Swing in that case, but then I'm less confident with server-side stuff.
[14:43:45] <Clackwell> bowyakka: you sick, twisted bastid
[14:43:46] <paulweb515> I'm gtk+
[14:43:49] <r0bby_> never bothered to look and don't care
[14:43:55] <bowyakka> omry|work, I cant get smarty i am the channel fool
[14:44:02] <r0bby_> paulweb515: wimp theme.
[14:44:14] <bowyakka> Clackwell, nah twisted would be java applets running on .net
[14:44:14] <Java_the_Hutt> r0bby:   there is a java gtk api
[14:44:17] <ricky_clarkson> roots-: Yes there is (iirc), but Swing has a GtkLookAndFeel which uses some of Gtk+, afaik.
[14:44:17] <omry|work> bowyakka, in that case, accept my applogies.
[14:44:17] <Clackwell> is that related to wuss theme?
[14:44:25] <r0bby_> that's hot
[14:44:27] <Clackwell> bowyakka: oh wicked :)
[14:44:42] <r0bby_> i think i just...nevermind
[14:44:56] <ricky_clarkson> /ban r0bby_
[14:45:06] <bowyakka> wha?
[14:45:16] <r0bby_> NOOOOOO
[14:45:21] <r0bby_> I'm a good boy
[14:45:24] <r0bby_> very very good
[14:45:30] <r0bby_> saintly
[14:45:31] * bowyakka hides
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[14:45:37] <ricky_clarkson> Ok, children, play nicely.
[14:46:07] <bowyakka> Clackwell started it !
[14:46:31] <hatOFF> How do you say in english, that word when you teach someone?
[14:46:35] <hatOFF> Like, meditation?
[14:46:36] <hatOFF> Or?
[14:46:39] <damian666> dibblego: thanks alot for your support, a collegue tries to compile it on his machine. hope its my configuration or my javac and jar :) have a nice day
[14:46:39] <ricky_clarkson> hatOFF: Teach.
[14:46:50] <hatOFF> No, it's another word... uhm.
[14:46:50] <bowyakka> lol
[14:47:07] <ricky_clarkson> hatOFF: What's your language?
[14:47:07] <r0bby_> hatOFF: google
[14:47:09] <bowyakka> educate ?
[14:47:09] <r0bby_> :-P
[14:47:15] <bowyakka> tutor ?
[14:47:26] * r0bby_ keeps his mouth shut
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[14:50:38] <heanol> i dont really think MVC works with J2ME.
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[14:51:09] <bowyakka> heanol, compile time mvc might
[14:51:13] <ricky_clarkson> s/MVC/anything/
[14:51:17] <heanol> ricky_clarkson, :)
[14:51:34] <heanol> i can't decide how to design the ui code for my j2me app.
[14:51:44] <ricky_clarkson> Quickly and badly.
[14:51:45] <heanol> there's not really any patterns except the mvc pattern
[14:51:45] <Clackwell> heanol: there is no MVC implementing api in the j2me spec, that's all, as far as i know.
[14:51:45] <roots-> man i wouldnt mind working for a pretigious big company
[14:51:49] <ricky_clarkson> That seems to be the norm.
[14:51:51] <bowyakka> heanol, eg build the code mvc style and then write some form of preprocessor to convert it to more raw code
[14:51:51] <roots-> just thinking about things
[14:51:58] <heanol> Clackwell, well you can implement it yourself pretty easily but imo it looks ugly
[14:52:10] <roots-> i need a brain amputation and a personality transplant to qualify though
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[14:52:16] <bowyakka> mvc is a bit overrated anyhow
[14:52:28] <roots-> especially the view/controller part
[14:52:31] <heanol> for larger web projects i like it
[14:52:31] <Clackwell> heanol: wth are you talking about?
[14:52:37] <roots-> kind of ambigious
[14:52:40] <roots-> swing has m-v-p
[14:52:41] <ricky_clarkson> Anyway, I don't want you to control my viewing of models.
[14:52:41] <heanol> Clackwell, ?
[14:52:45] <roots-> model view presentation
[14:52:52] <roots-> nomenclature is questionable though
[14:52:53] <heanol> Clackwell, just because the api doesnt implemetn doesnt mean i can. Ever hear of struts, spring?
[14:53:07] <bowyakka> and far to many people think the world is still simple enought for three tier artchitectures
[14:53:09] <Clackwell> heanol: exactly. so why is your code ugly?
[14:53:22] <roots-> ricky_clarkson: depends on how you view at your model controlling approach
[14:53:24] <bowyakka> *enougth
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[14:53:34] <bowyakka> no damnit acck cant spell
[14:53:53] <heanol> what i meant was, i can't come up with a nice way of implementing it.
[14:53:56] * ricky_clarkson declares bowyakka rubbish.
[14:54:09] <heanol> i found some project on sun.com that had an implementation, looked ugly imo.
[14:54:14] *** bowyakka is now known as rubbish
[14:54:21] <rubbish> wow *strong* stuff
[14:54:38] <ricky_clarkson> rubbish: I see.  You're on Diamond White.
[14:54:39] <Clackwell> heanol: nevermind that, sun implemented swing too afterall. :)
[14:54:45] <Epesh> uh
[14:54:59] <heanol> a class named uicontroller with hundreds of constants enumeration actions and each view passing those int constants to it when a command is executed
[14:55:06] <heanol> (i may be exagerating)
[14:55:11] <rubbish> ricky_clarkson, there is a limit to your insulting behaviour I am not a frickin chav
[14:55:22] *** rubbish is now known as bowyakka
[14:55:25] <roots-> what is a chav ?
[14:55:34] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: My limit is legalities.
[14:55:34] <Clackwell> heanol: sounds like you shouldn't design larger apis, like so many people (including me, of course, yes.) ;)
[14:55:48] <heanol> why do you say that?
[14:55:58] <ricky_clarkson> roots-: Smartly dressed young idiots.
[14:55:59] <heanol> you mean every large api is ugly somehow?  :)
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[14:56:13] <bowyakka> roots-, errrr try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav
[14:56:21] <shredstar> What do you guys think of this?  http://www.jroller.com/page/fate
[14:56:26] <Clackwell> heanol: naw, only when the api engineers suck. which is often the case, perhaps. :)
[14:56:31] <bowyakka> I bet burberry were delighted with the change of image
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[14:57:16] <shredstar> I hate the JavaMAil API; especially its dependence on JAF.
[14:57:45] <Clackwell> shredstar: ;)
[14:57:57] <ricky_clarkson> I hate APIs when they make me subclass to use them.
[14:58:00] <Clackwell> shredstar: bileblog in general or the current feature?
[14:58:20] <shredstar> Clackwell: both i guess.
[14:58:21] <Clackwell> ricky_clarkson: you...you...conservative
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[14:58:38] <heanol> or maybe i'll implement it using the "obese pattern", throw everything inside one class ;)
[14:58:43] <ricky_clarkson> Clackwell: Nope.
[14:58:52] <ricky_clarkson> ~tell heanol about wiki BigBallOfMud
[14:58:52] <javabot> heanol, wiki BigBallOfMud is http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BigBallOfMud
[14:59:12] <shredstar> all programmers are liberal nprheads.
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[14:59:50] <ricky_clarkson> In fact this is a better link: http://www.laputan.org/mud/mud.html
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[15:00:38] <shredstar> I should fix up my email classes a little and do my own competing JavaMAil api.
[15:01:03] <bowyakka> thats a nice blog post, I dont read tss myself and I am glad to see others have similer views on it
[15:01:03] <ricky_clarkson> Call it JMail or something equally original.
[15:01:06] <Clackwell> shredstar: see that commons-mail (or so) thing maybe.
[15:01:16] * ricky_clarkson glances at Javabot and Netsim, then goes quiet.
[15:01:43] <shredstar> The sad part of gcj-classpath reimplementing Swing & JavaMAil is they are reimplementing SWING & JAVAMAIL.
[15:02:09] <ricky_clarkson> shredstar: For compatibility, they haven't got a lot of option.
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[15:03:23] <shredstar> ricky_clarkson: Obviously. But still - the sight of the classpath-javamail guy arguing with the sun-javamail guy about the obscenely misdesigned JavaMail API on sun's mailing list is just comical.
[15:04:10] <ricky_clarkson> ~why not mozilla
[15:04:10] <javabot> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84128
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[15:05:22] <shredstar> ?
[15:05:52] <ricky_clarkson> Irrelevant, but a good example of Open Sores software being borked by developers.
[15:06:48] <Clackwell> shredstar: i heard people argue that neither javamail nor swing were designed for application developers. perhaps so, but...still leaves a bad taste.
[15:07:19] <Epesh> Clackwell: ?
[15:07:28] <Clackwell> Epesh: yes? :)
[15:07:29] <Epesh> javamail wasn't misdesigned
[15:07:41] <Epesh> it was badly propagated, but not misdesigned
[15:07:42] <Clackwell> Epesh: <point to shredstar>
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[15:08:07] <The_Vulture> Epesh: badly propagated in what sense?
[15:08:25] <Clackwell> hi vulty
[15:08:35] <Epesh> The_Vulture: as in, it's a general-use interface, and wasn't designed for the "common case," which is "sending a single email"
[15:08:47] <Epesh> the amount of work you go through to send a simple, single email in javamail is impressive
[15:09:22] <Epesh> of course, when you're actually trying to send a TON of emails efficiently, javamail's design is very good
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[15:10:49] <Epesh> My suspicion is that javamail was designed with things like commons-email in mind: programmers would write APIs that were higher-level, and use those instead of the wire protocol things
[15:11:02] <The_Vulture> Epesh: I've found that to be the case with some or quite a few Java APIs. It was for this reason I was suprised by the simplicity of the regex API when it did come out.
[15:11:25] <Epesh> The_Vulture: I think MOST of teh Java APIs are that way, for sure
[15:11:34] <Epesh> and people whining about them have a point, but not much of one
[15:12:05] <The_Vulture> *nods*
[15:12:25] <ricky_clarkson> The problem is that a lot of programmers are loathe to use anything not in the JDK.
[15:12:33] <Epesh> ricky_clarkson: right. Why?
[15:13:04] <Clackwell> ricky_clarkson: i think the bigger factor is the lack of ease of use wrappers in the first place...
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[15:13:27] <{aaron}> anybody use the java pkcs#11 API?
[15:13:31] <ricky_clarkson> Licencing, lack of encouragement by Sun, no real CPAN-alike, and fear of NotInventedHere.
[15:13:31] <Clackwell> what does it matter if you include a 5 kb .jar that simplifies sending emails?
[15:13:47] <Clackwell> ricky_clarkson: hm
[15:14:01] <The_Vulture> I really enjoy the ability to easily use 3rd party Java libraries.. use them whenever I find a half decent excuse.
[15:14:12] <Epesh> lucensing?
[15:14:13] <bowyakka> Clackwell, "oh we dont know if the code is really that well tested, i mean its open source and as such is written by amatures ....."
[15:14:16] <Epesh> licensing is an issue?
[15:14:21] <Epesh> Which licenses?
[15:14:21] <bowyakka> for example
[15:14:31] <ricky_clarkson> And it's not particularly easy to have a .jar installed system-wide, which makes less able developers confused.
[15:14:40] <Epesh> ricky_clarkson: nor is it wise
[15:14:58] <The_Vulture> ricky_clarkson: I dislike the idea of system wide installation anyway - it's so easy to package locally without effecting other apps that may depend on other versions.
[15:15:09] <bowyakka> ricky_clarkson, ? it does ? I think i learnt classpath very quickly
[15:15:16] <Clackwell> bowyakka: i doubt that excuse is being used a lot. it sounds like an argument brought up against big, fat (tm) frameworks, not a slick, slim ease of use wrapper for a very specific purpose.
[15:15:18] <ricky_clarkson> Yet you wouldn't mind installing vim system-wide.
[15:15:44] <The_Vulture> ricky_clarkson: a library is a different beast and version issues except in incredibly controlled environments, are common
[15:15:50] <bowyakka> Clackwell, nope I have heard that argument for small frameworks ! (and yet here we use Broadvision in all its satanic evilness)
[15:16:08] <Clackwell> bowyakka: framework -> you're in hell if it fails
[15:16:20] <ricky_clarkson> You need a FAF.
[15:16:25] <Clackwell> bowyakka: if commons-email fails for you, you have a few hours or days to invest to replace it, only.
[15:16:27] <ricky_clarkson> A Framework Abstraction Framework. ;)
[15:16:37] <Clackwell> ricky_clarkson: JSF?!
[15:16:56] <Epesh> heh
[15:17:02] <bowyakka> ricky_clarkson, surly that is used by the Abstract Framework Abstration Service
[15:17:25] <ricky_clarkson> I wrote a poem this morning.
[15:17:34] <jwormy> sad.
[15:18:02] <Epesh> ricky_clarkson: was it good?
[15:18:23] <Drone> View ricky_clarkson's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8607
[15:18:30] <ricky_clarkson> I doubt it.
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[15:19:15] <Clackwell> ricky_clarkson: 20 minutes and you take the train? lazybone.
[15:19:22] <Epesh> pffft
[15:19:24] <Clackwell> buy a bicycle and ride
[15:19:35] <Epesh> it didn't reach me, but that doesn't mean it's bad
[15:19:43] <ricky_clarkson> 25 minute fast-paced walk, but the issue was that I had only 12 minutes to do it in.
[15:19:52] <Clackwell> Epesh: you're merkin, you drive by car all day long, don't you?
[15:19:56] <ricky_clarkson> Clackwell: My bike was at work.  I cycled it home.
[15:19:56] * Epesh updates to the new IDEA
[15:20:10] <Epesh> Clackwell: I work at home, I will go weeks before driving anywhere
[15:20:16] <Clackwell> ricky_clarkson: ah. that'll teach you to leave it at work.
[15:20:18] <ricky_clarkson> Epesh: Is that like getting a new Newspeak dictionary?
[15:20:33] <Epesh> ricky_clarkson: no, it's like getting bugfixes and enhancements
[15:20:38] <Clackwell> Epesh: hm. isn't that considered unamerican? :)
[15:20:47] <Epesh> Clackwell: not by me.
[15:21:13] <The_Vulture> Well see you guys in a week or so, if at all (I will have either submitted my thesis or committed suicide) :)
[15:21:18] <Epesh> Clackwell: I even chose my vehicles (two of them) factoring in useless crap like gas mileage, suitability, etc
[15:21:39] <r0bby_> you know you're bored when you start reading code on pastebins
[15:21:59] <ricky_clarkson> Epesh: Wrt trains, it's fucking irritating that I can get more accurate train times online than I can in the station.
[15:22:00] <paulweb515> The_Vulture:  I vote for thesis
[15:22:22] <shredstar> Epesh: i disagree. JavaMAil is stupid in requiring a JAF renderer for any mime attachment you want to retreive (get its byte []). Maybe you have an app that wants to treat mime parts like a blob.
[15:22:32] <ricky_clarkson> The station times just lie, plain as day.
[15:22:33] <r0bby_> .// give the geometric mean to the first 3 decimal // places System.out.print("Geometric mean:" + " "); System.out.printf("%1.3f\n",Math.abs(mean.geometricMean()));
[15:22:44] <r0bby_> is that comment accutate?
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[15:23:06] <Epesh> shredstar: fair enough. I disagree, given what JAF was trying to accomplish, but I also COMPLETELY see your point. :)
[15:23:11] <r0bby_> accurate*
[15:23:14] <r0bby_> I think it is
[15:23:22] <ricky_clarkson> roots-: Why Math.abs?
[15:23:36] <r0bby_> because it's a sqrt
[15:23:39] <r0bby_> plus
[15:23:44] <r0bby_> she's giving extra credit for using it
[15:23:47] <r0bby_> and my design is good
[15:23:51] <r0bby_> so i figure why not
[15:24:09] <ricky_clarkson> Why does sqrt need Math.abs?
[15:24:31] <ricky_clarkson> sqrt(what) gives negatives?
[15:24:34] <ricky_clarkson> for what in real.
[15:24:42] <r0bby_> yeh
[15:24:43] <r0bby_> :/
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[15:25:18] <shredstar> Epesh: I'm surprised more people aren't fascist when it comes to unnecessary dependencies.  That really does slow development way down sometimes.
[15:25:18] *** The_Vulture has quit IRC
[15:25:31] <Epesh> shredstar: well, javamail IS covered by the JCP...
[15:25:53] <Epesh> and honestly, commons-email does it (javamail) well
[15:26:35] <r0bby_> im leaving the Math.abs() there
[15:26:46] <r0bby_> what does it hurt?
[15:26:51] <ricky_clarkson> The eyes.
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[15:27:24] <r0bby_> she did say she would give extra credit if we took the absolute value of the geometric mean
[15:27:26] <IseeIsee> does anyone uses JCreator here ?
[15:27:30] <r0bby_> but i think i did it wrong
[15:27:39] <ricky_clarkson> IseeIsee: A little.
[15:27:42] <IseeIsee> I was just wondering if somebody can give me its Registration code & all that
[15:27:51] <ricky_clarkson> IseeIsee: Fuck off.
[15:27:51] <Epesh> IseeIsee: to warez it?
[15:28:04] <r0bby_> IseeIsee: this isn't a warez channel
[15:28:08] <r0bby_> go away
[15:28:20] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Epesh
[15:28:23] <IseeIsee> whats a warez ?
[15:28:35] <ricky_clarkson> IseeIsee: You want pirate keys from us?
[15:28:35] <r0bby_> I wasn't seeing the Math.abs() doing anything to begin w/
[15:28:39] <ricky_clarkson> Epesh: Hang fire.
[15:28:40] *** Epesh sets mode: +b *!*n=OOOOKKK@203.81.198.*
[15:28:40] *** IseeIsee was kicked by Epesh (no stealing in ##java (i.e., 'what's the reg code?))
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[15:28:59] <r0bby_> so it's gone
[15:29:12] <ricky_clarkson> Ah well.
[15:29:34] <Clackwell> jcreator is dirt cheap and the free version has almost anything relevant to offer.
[15:29:44] <Clackwell> wafm
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[15:30:09] <shredstar> jedit is really getting on my nerves.
[15:30:18] <r0bby_> i use textpad
[15:30:19] <b0fh_ua> hi there! May be somebody could suggest some demo code to connect to LDAP server and perform search?
[15:30:21] <Clackwell> shredstar: oh?
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[15:30:31] <doc|work> can someone take a look at http://pastebin.com/408874 and tell me why I'm getting the exception at the bottom for a datasource listed in the webapp's xml file?
[15:30:36] <b0fh_ua> i remember it was somewhere on forums,java.sun.com, just can't find it there right now..
[15:30:48] <Clackwell> b0fh_ua: i seem to recall something for that at ibm's site. maybe Epesh has the url
[15:30:53] <Clackwell> <innocent whistle>
[15:30:55] <r0bby_> ok this is ok design
[15:30:55] <shredstar> Clackwell: yeah yeah i know i can create a macro to fix any problem I find.
[15:31:00] <r0bby_> not 100% happy but whatever
[15:31:02] <Epesh> doc|work: um
[15:31:17] <r0bby_> looping my code would require i indent the whole thing
[15:31:22] <r0bby_> and that's a pain
[15:31:30] <Epesh> you're trying to look up java:comp/env/jdbc/agencydb/jdbc/agencydb? :)
[15:31:33] <Clackwell> shredstar: never said that. i was rather wondering if you had come across something relevant to me, too.
[15:31:54] <Clackwell> r0bby: indenting sucks and is highly overrated.
[15:31:58] <doc|work> Epesh: let me guess, the example was wrong? :/
[15:32:01] <b0fh_ua> ehhe
[15:32:06] <Epesh> doc|work: I don't know what example you're using
[15:32:07] <Clackwell> for that reason i wrote a macro for jedit for randomly indent all my code.
[15:32:21] <Epesh> but the datasource would be locatable by the string in line 16
[15:32:24] <shredstar> Clackwell: nearly every time I copy several lines, I need to type <home><paste> instead of <paste>, or it adds superfluous indentation.
[15:32:38] <doc|work> Epesh: the one that made me add that :) it wasn't there before and still the same thing. let me try again just to be sure
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[15:32:59] <shredstar> Clackwell: selecting multiple lines, then using Ctrl-D only deletes the single line where the cursor is.
[15:33:01] <Epesh> doc|work: are you using tomcat?
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[15:33:11] <doc|work> Epesh: yeah
[15:33:14] <Clackwell> shredstar: oh? never had that. sure you are using a recent version? i am always using ctrl-v for pasting.
[15:33:23] <r0bby_> Actually a squareroot can't ever be negative
[15:33:23] <shredstar> drives me bonkers.
[15:33:23] <Kallistor> try changing the initialcontext line to : initContext.lookup("java:/comp/env/");
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[15:33:25] <r0bby_> well it can
[15:33:28] <Clackwell> shredstar: i use DEL key for that.
[15:33:32] <r0bby_> it'd just be imaginary
[15:33:41] <Clackwell> shredstar: oh, or backspace, of course.
[15:33:43] <doc|work> Epesh: nope, same thing
[15:33:49] *** Epesh sets mode: -b *!*n=OOOOKKK@203.81.198.*
[15:33:52] <Epesh> doc|work: well, here's a JNDI tutorial to explain something of what's going on
[15:33:57] <r0bby_> thinking outloud
[15:34:18] <Kallistor> java:/comp/env/jdbc/agencydb/jdbc/agencydb
[15:34:29] <Epesh> http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/j-jndi/?ca=dnt-62
[15:34:33] <Kallistor> is what you're currently trying to look up
[15:34:44] <Clackwell> ~jndi
[15:34:45] <javabot> Clackwell, jndi is http://java.sun.com/products/jndi - Java Naming and Directory Interface
[15:34:47] <Epesh> doc|work: note that in tomcat, your nonqualified JNDI name is "agencydb"
[15:34:47] <shredstar> Clackwell: Ctrl+V leaves the 1st line with too much indents too.
[15:34:49] <Kallistor> which is probably not what you want
[15:34:50] <Clackwell> ~ldap
[15:34:51] <javabot> Clackwell, I have no idea what ldap is.
[15:34:53] <Epesh> not java:comp/env or anything
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[15:35:02] <Epesh> tomcat's datasource stuff sucks
[15:35:04] <doc|work> Epesh: hmmm, ok, thanks
[15:35:26] <shredstar> How much does an ldap dance cost in SF?
[15:35:42] *** Epesh sets mode: -o Epesh
[15:35:43] <doc|work> shredstar: your soul
[15:35:46] <Clackwell> shredstar: 4.2 final here, xp, java 1.5.0_04
[15:36:07] <Epesh> doc|work: that article has a few flaws, but I didn't write the bad bits :)
[15:36:14] <shredstar> 4.2 final on Win2K.
[15:36:16] <doc|work> hehe :) thanks :)
[15:36:40] <Clackwell> shredstar: hm, weird, weird. maybe fixed in the latest beta, never know.
[15:36:49] <Epesh> doc|work: at least, I don't THINK I did - if you ask me about errors in it, I'll be honest and tell you if they're mine or not :)
[15:36:57] <doc|work> hehe, ok :)
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[15:37:10] <r0bby_> %1.3f< prints w number to the first 3 decimal places w/ a width of 1 space correct?
[15:37:22] <ricky_clarkson> roots-: Er, that was my point, Math.abs is useless there.
[15:37:25] <r0bby_> the < is not part of the %1.3
[15:37:36] <r0bby_> ricky_clarkson: yeh I removed it
[15:37:46] <shredstar> Clackwell: I select the text by dragging the mouse. I create a new line with <return>.  I guess the <return> auto-adds the indent, then the Ctrl+V adds its own indents on top of that.
[15:37:47] <bowyakka> anyone seen the netbeans 5 installer
[15:37:55] <r0bby_> netbeans is a joke
[15:38:02] <bowyakka> its says "building storage" -- Wow an installer that gives me disk space
[15:38:04] <ricky_clarkson> Must be German humour then.
[15:38:18] <bowyakka> r0bby_, as is eclipse and intellij, they all basically stink
[15:38:48] <r0bby_> I use textpad :-P
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[15:39:00] <bowyakka> thats just ikkie
[15:39:02] <Kallistor> we can't all be leet :)
[15:39:08] <r0bby_> nvm
[15:39:12] <r0bby_> I rtfm :-)
[15:39:29] <shredstar> Clackwell: And sometimes I type in a if() { } clause not necessarily in order, so by the time i'm done the indentation is all fucked up because of all the smartass autoindentation done during the 2ms I had not enough }s.
[15:39:45] <bowyakka> textpad makes me want to stick pins into kittens
[15:39:54] <ricky_clarkson> I use vim and Eclipse.
[15:39:55] <Clackwell> shredstar: oh yes, that. i have gotten used to that indenting habit.
[15:40:26] <bowyakka> javabot, start and editor way
[15:40:26] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'how to use editor panes' might be appropriate:
[15:40:28] <javabot> bowyakka, how to use editor panes is http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/uiswing/components/editorpane.html
[15:40:31] <bowyakka> javabot, start and editor war
[15:40:32] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'start a distro war' might be appropriate:
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[15:40:34] <javabot> yoper is known to cause sexual impotence and repel members of the opposite sex; its users are really backwards
[15:40:34] <shredstar> Everything is fine if I t y p e  r   e a   l l   y  slo w ly   a n d   wa t ch  all the realtime a  n  i mat   i on.
[15:40:39] <Clackwell> shredstar: i enter if/while/etc. first, then the curly brackets, then start typing the code, personally.
[15:40:47] <r0bby_> System.out.print("\nGeometric mean: "); System.out.printf("%1.3f\n",mean.geometricMean());
[15:40:50] <r0bby_> if u were a prof
[15:40:56] <r0bby_> would you want that commented?
[15:41:02] <r0bby_> i feel it's self documenting
[15:41:23] <Clackwell> r0bby: yeah, start cutting corner's early.
[15:41:28] <bowyakka> r0bby_ comment it in the best way ... // This code prints the geometric mean ...
[15:41:31] <shredstar> Clackwell: yeah, thats gay.   maybe some programmer wants to type stuff in, IN A DIFFERENT ORDER.
[15:41:41] <Clackwell> in fact, cut that university studies corner, go for a job now!
[15:42:08] <r0bby_> actually i commented the logic code
[15:42:14] <r0bby_> which says what the chunk does
[15:42:15] <r0bby_> :-)
[15:42:16] <ricky_clarkson> I need to go out, but this music is so addictive.
[15:42:56] <Clackwell> shredstar: i don't recall having any automatic indentation in jedit though.
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[15:43:11] <shredstar> or   // This code does not print the geometric mean ...
[15:43:21] <shredstar> That's a good comment too.
[15:43:34] <isat> any experience with Tomcat in here?
[15:43:41] <Epesh> isat: yes
[15:43:42] <Clackwell> isat: nope
[15:43:43] <Epesh> all bad
[15:43:55] <r0bby_> 					/* check to see if score1 or score2 are zero
[15:43:55] <r0bby_> 					 * if they are tell the user it's not allowed
[15:43:55] <r0bby_> 					 * otherwise give them the harmonic mean
[15:43:55] <r0bby_> 					 */
[15:43:56] <isat> Epesh, im having trouble with my apache config for mod_jk, I think
[15:43:59] <r0bby_> eeek
[15:44:00] <r0bby_> sorry
[15:44:09] <Clackwell> hang him, hang him!
[15:44:11] <hzsp> !!
[15:44:13] * r0bby_ hangs
[15:44:17] <isat> Epesh, or maybe just in general
[15:44:19] * r0bby_ stabs irssi
[15:44:25] <Epesh> isat: I'm not a mod_jk guy
[15:44:40] <isat> Epesh, I think I may just need a vhost for tomcat.   #apache and #tomcat were of no help
[15:45:01] <isat> do you use tomcat standalone?
[15:45:07] <hzsp> isat: there's masses of q&as about mod_jk on tomcat users ML
[15:45:20] <isat> hzsp, I dont think it is mod_jk actually
[15:45:26] <hzsp> ?
[15:45:27] <bowyakka> why bother mod_jk is going away with apache 2.2 anyhow
[15:45:59] <r0bby_> sorry about the flood
[15:46:00] <r0bby_> bbl
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[15:46:05] <isat> heres my problem: http://131.230.186.200/test.jsp
[15:46:05] <Drone> That URL gave the following error: java.net.NoRouteToHostException, No route to host
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[15:46:55] <isat> Drone, that URL I just typed?
[15:47:13] <bowyakka> Drone, 2+2
[15:47:16] <tezem> Can anybody explain to me how to implement the special Aggregation named Composition in Java? IMO it's not possible at all.
[15:47:23] <bowyakka> javabot, 2+2
[15:47:24] <javabot> bowyakka, I have no idea what 2+2 is.
[15:47:26] <ricky_clarkson> ~calc 2+2
[15:47:26] <javabot> 12.6?
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[15:47:39] <shredstar> Clackwell: really? When you hit <enter>, it autoadds leading tabs I bet.
[15:47:45] <bowyakka> tezem, wha ?
[15:48:27] <bowyakka> tezem, you being smoking crack or something
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[15:50:53] <tezem> bowyakka: I have a Group class which acts like the Composition from the Composite Pattern. So it hold leafs and other groups. When a group is deleted all carried objects should be deleted too. Therefore the only reference to the objects inside the Group Object should be inside the Group Object but how this should be done when the objects must be added from outside of the Group. I never can be sure about the references.
[15:50:54] <Clackwell> shredstar: yes, but that is all it does for me.
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[15:52:11] <shredstar> http://www.eclipse.org/swt/
[15:53:14] <bowyakka> tezem, prehaps http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-09-2002/jw-0913-designpatterns.html might be useful to you
[15:54:20] <terence_> how to iterate on a sorted set? does the iterator goes descending or ascending? do i have to convert it to an array?
[15:54:33] <tezem> bowyakka: I know this. This is not a Composition relationship used but a Aggregation therefore the not filled diamond in the UML.
[15:54:33] <bowyakka> i mean to add outside the "group" surely a simple method will work yes ? addNewLeaf(String someVar, String someotherVar ...) or addNewLeaf(someLeafObj) then hold the ref to the leaf in the group and avoid holding it outside the composite object ?
[15:55:56] <tezem> bowyakka: avoid holding outside of the Object is everything other then a proper solution
[15:56:20] <bowyakka> tezem then use thefirst solution and only build the objkects inside the group
[15:56:26] <bowyakka> *objects
[15:56:53] <tezem> bowyakka: yes thats the only way but also not possible :-)
[15:57:00] <shredstar> "Microsoft Office has evolved. Have you?"
[15:57:07] <bowyakka> why is that not possible ?
[15:58:20] <bowyakka> shredstar, yes i know use vim :P
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[15:58:50] <tezem> bowyakka: When I have more leafs. e.g. like in a Graphic Program: line, rectangle, square and so on. Every leaf has other arguments to construct it. So I need different Constructors for each leaf one.
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[15:59:17] <terence_> bowyakka:  i really can't follow you.. i have a similar strcut but i doN#t see your problem .. if you have a tree strcut and furthermore than more elements that are attached to nodes but itself are not part of the tree, if deleting a node all its subtree and all non tree elements in there will be deleted!
[15:59:53] <terence_> ups i mean tezem :
[16:00:05] <tezem> And I have to give those arguments to the proper Constructor of the Group which I cannot specify
[16:00:22] * bowyakka goes to a meeting
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[16:00:38] <Clackwell> bowyakka: power napping
[16:01:50] <tezem> terence_: can you show me a example plz?
[16:01:51] <terence_> tezem:  use hashmap for child node egdes (key is edge idetifier and value is id of the child node) and use list for non tree elements on the node
[16:03:11] <terence_> ahh don't use id of course.. you need to use reference
[16:03:28] <terence_> if you want to get sutree freed if deleting node
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[16:03:44] <terence_> ^subtree
[16:03:49] <isat> could someone please explain what this means: If the appBase in server.xml is within the docBase of the context tomcat 5.5
[16:03:49] <isat> says no host matches name name.example.com...
[16:03:53] *** som1 has left ##java
[16:05:23] <nmx> isat: that's because there is no name.example.com
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[16:05:42] <isat> nmx, thats an example... im getting the same error with the IP of my server
[16:06:03] <terence_> tezem:   class NodeEntry  { Map<EgdeIndetifier,NodeEntry > childNodes; entities collection;}
[16:06:56] <AngelusMori> isat: have you tried your domain name?
[16:07:13] <terence_> tezem:   how do you wanna add group from outside? i mean how to you know at which node in the tree you want to add?
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[16:08:34] <terence_> how to iterate on a sorted set? does the iterator goes descending or ascending? do i have to convert it to an array before?
[16:09:00] <isat> AngelusMori, no domain yet
[16:09:17] <tezem> terence_: This is not important. I only say that you cannot add instances from outside of the holding Object because you can't be sure that there are not more References to the real object
[16:09:29] <kaydara> how to read a line of string and ints? but i dont know howmany of them , i need to read till new line, but how can i check what i read ?
[16:12:00] <terence_> tezem:  sure.. you have to use backwards reference (double linked)
[16:12:07] <terence_> than check if null
[16:12:12] <terence_> ^then
[16:12:19] <terence_> child<>parent
[16:12:25] <tezem> terence_: you miss my point
[16:12:37] <tezem> I'm not speaking about linking of a list.
[16:13:36] <terence_> you are afarid of adding childs(groups) to a node you kep a second ref, else from the parent of this node in the tree
[16:13:47] <terence_> aren'T you?
[16:14:02] <terence_> in the case the node has no more parent?
[16:14:52] <terence_> i don't get what you mean with real object?
[16:15:08] <terence_> a reference is the pointer to the object, you won't get nearer in java?
[16:15:30] <terence_> i mean-  more real..
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[16:16:27] <hzsp> kaydara: what separates the strings and ints? spaces?
[16:18:31] <terence_> ahh! The Iterator returned by the iterator operation traverses the sorted set in order.
[16:18:41] <terence_> finally i found it..
[16:21:40] <Epesh> ~vicious circle++
[16:21:40] <javabot> Epesh, I have no idea what vicious circle++ is.
[16:21:45] <kaydara> spaces i can recive like "10 1 N 2 N N 2 3 10 N"
[16:21:48] <kaydara> hzsp:
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[16:25:29] <abefroman> Im looking for a ready made java impl that generates windows LM and NTLM hashes
[16:26:19] <hzsp> kaydara: use String.split()
[16:26:49] <hzsp> kaydara: then use java.util.regex to test if the element is a number or a string
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[16:27:54] <abefroman> Anyone know of one ? .. I looked at jcifs but its all based on generating a chalenge response hash i want a hash build from plain text that I can sore in an ldap for samba to authenticate against
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[16:32:35] <n0b0dY> i used wait() on a thread that read data from socket. than a notify() after (between that another method read data from socket). but i receive a java.lang.IllegalMonitorStateException: current thread not owner
[16:32:38] <n0b0dY> that this mean? =P
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[16:37:04] <bowyakka> back
[16:37:21] <bowyakka> what did i miss, did i miss the over-engineering of uml to jaa ?
[16:37:22] <bowyakka> *java
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[16:51:10] <Eclipser> is it possible to read a process memory under windows in java?
[16:51:31] <Eclipser> (just wondering which language I should choose for this task :)
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[16:56:05] <paulweb515> Eclipser: Read what from a process memory?  Just get a memory dump?  Or do you mean the running stack trace?
[16:57:13] <Eclipser> paulweb515, reading a specific amount of bytes from certain address of certain processes memory
[16:57:59] <paulweb515> That's not really Java's forte
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[16:58:40] <paulweb515> C, C++ plus some of windows system libraries might do it
[16:58:47] <Eclipser> yea I figured
[16:59:12] <Eclipser> I might learn C# for that, since from what I can gather, MS has really fucked up with C++ :p
[16:59:29] <Eclipser> my eyes are still bleeding from reading MSDN C++ things
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[17:03:47] <Clackwell> Eclipser: one could argue that it wasn't ms who fucked c++ up.
[17:04:27] <Eclipser> Clackwell, I mean these "extensions" like #using <System.dll>
[17:04:30] <Eclipser> it's freaking me out :p
[17:04:49] <Eclipser> don't get me wrong, I like C++ AND Java
[17:05:06] <Kallistor> c# looks a lot like java
[17:05:14] <Eclipser> yes I noticed
[17:05:14] * hzsp waits for language war #130582
[17:05:22] <Kallistor> don't they have a j# too
[17:06:14] <Kallistor> won't see me starting one :)
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[17:09:02] <Clackwell> Kallistor: yeah they do, and it's nice, allows to keep some stuff highly portable between java and .net.
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[17:12:17] <Logi> java and c# are too similar to start a war about the difference
[17:12:40] <Logi> that would be like, say, Sunny and Shi''ite muslims killing each other over details
[17:12:43] <Logi> uh, wait...
[17:12:47] <Kallistor> hehe
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[17:13:00] <hzsp> Logi: ;)
[17:13:40] <Logi> (or Catholics and Protestants to take a European but lsightly older example)
[17:13:48] <teralaser> hahaha
[17:14:09] <teralaser> Logi , international man of mystery there
[17:14:17] <hzsp> I'm sure all programming languages can coexist peacefully in one happy programming heaven...
[17:14:21] <Logi> teralaser: he
[17:14:36] <Logi> hzsp: yes, let's go put them there
[17:14:55] <Logi> hzsp: is your nick perchance a contraction of a terrorist/freedom-fighter organization?
[17:15:03] <hzsp> Logi: :o no
[17:15:05] <Logi> hzsp: we could use a man like you in the coming war
[17:15:14] <hzsp> Logi: it's a contractions of Hertzsprung
[17:15:23] <Logi> hzsp: bah, no fun
[17:15:30] <hzsp> oh, it's masses of fun
[17:15:32] <Logi> anyone here in Helsinki/Helsingfors?
[17:15:37] <Clackwell> holy zionism shlomo pacifists
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[17:16:33] <Logi> Clackwell: I can't respond to that since I don't understand the third word
[17:16:48] <hzsp> Logi: you never seen an action movie? ;)
[17:17:07] <Clackwell> Logi: "shlomo" was the first very-jewish sounding word/name that came to my mind. :)
[17:17:13] <Logi> Clackwell: haha
[17:17:24] <Logi> Clackwell: putz
[17:17:55] <Logi> actually, speaking of language wras, j# sucks pretty badly
[17:17:59] <roots-> Logi: seen ~vi ?
[17:18:00] <roots-> ~vi
[17:18:00] <javabot> roots-, vi is http://www.io.com/~dierdorf/vi-emacs2.jpg
[17:18:24] <d03boy> did I lag out or are you guys still fucking talking abotu vi vs emacs?
[17:18:25] <Logi> haha, nice one :)
[17:18:35] <Logi> d03boy: yeah, you lagged about 15 years there
[17:18:37] <d03boy> i went to sleep, and woke up
[17:18:54] <Logi> d03boy: so you only got the first 10 years of the war
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[17:19:40] <d03boy> wow
[17:20:32] <Logi> this is sad.. Friday night in Helsinki and I don't feel like going out
[17:20:49] <Logi> maybe I'll just go to the hotel sauna?
[17:21:39] * DeadEd is in Espoo
[17:21:42] <Logi> Btw, does Visual Studio rot the brain in ways that f.ex. IDEA doesn't?
[17:22:02] * Logi looks for a map
[17:22:31] * DeadEd points to the left of Helsinki
[17:22:59] <Logi> Finnland has a pretty well designed e-ID card, but messed the introduction monumentally
[17:23:19] <Logi> DeadEd: yeah, I've got it on a map on Wikipedia, unfortunately there isn't anything *else* on the map so I still don't know :)
[17:23:51] <Clackwell> bbl
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[17:24:19] <DeadEd> so you're not Finnish then Logi?
[17:24:29] <Logi> DeadEd: I am, I'm at a hotel in Helsinki
[17:24:49] <DeadEd> ah k, where from then?
[17:24:55] <Logi> I've got Helsinki, Lohja, Salo, Turku in that order
[17:24:59] <Logi> DeadEd: Iceland
[17:25:16] <DeadEd> :)
[17:25:25] <DeadEd> you like cold places then :P
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[17:25:34] <alden> hey guys, i cant understand why my textboxes width is so small. can someone help me out ? my code is here: http://www.nomorepasting.com/paste.php?pasteID=51397 thanks for any help in advance
[17:25:38] <Logi> no, I *like* warm places, but I'm used to the cold ones
[17:25:45] <DeadEd> :)
[17:26:40] <Logi> I'm going to Italy tomorrow... through London, anyone up for an early curry? :)
[17:26:49] <alden> im going to Goa day after
[17:26:55] <Logi> alden: nice
[17:27:12] <Logi> alden: I'll be going to Genova whose airport has the TLA of GOA
[17:27:32] <alden> Logi: TLA ?
[17:27:42] <Logi> alden: TLA is the TLA for Three Letter Acronym
[17:28:08] <alden> Genova Old Airport ?
[17:29:34] <Logi> alden: eh, no, just GenOvA, and this is one of the less confusing one
[17:29:41] <Logi> alden: Milan Malpensa is MXP
[17:29:57] <Logi> oh, and Helsinki is HEL :)
[17:30:04] <Logi> I flew in to HEL yesterday
[17:30:46] <alden> heh
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[17:33:04] <moZer> anyone know the channel for apache maven?
[17:33:36] <Logi> moZer: if there is a #maven or ##maven channel then it's that, otherwise it's this one
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[17:37:06] <Adkron> how do I change an input stream into a byte array?
[17:37:16] <Adkron> I can't find anything on google
[17:38:46] <Logi> Adkron: and input stream isn't data and can't be converted. However, you can read data from it
[17:39:02] <Logi> Adkron: are you saying ou want to read all the bytes available from an input stream and put in a byte[] ?
[17:40:38] <roots-> why ?
[17:41:26] <roots-> just copy to a ByteArrayOutputStream, but why ?
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[17:42:57] <alden> hey guys, i cant understand why my textboxes width is so small. can someone help me out ? my code is here: http://www.nomorepasting.com/paste.php?pasteID=51397 thanks for any help in advance
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[17:51:25] <kaydara> how can i read a line of strings when i dont know how many i will read ?
[17:51:40] <d03boy> a line of strings...
[17:51:44] <d03boy> be more specific as to what you mean
[17:52:07] <kaydara> a line with strings like "N N N N 1 2 3 4 5"
[17:52:19] <d03boy> that is just one string
[17:52:25] <kaydara> the numbers are read as string as well
[17:52:45] <kaydara> ok take it off the slashes
[17:52:47] <d03boy> you need to be much more specific
[17:52:57] <d03boy> as to what you want to be done
[17:53:23] <kaydara> i have a problem when i recive how many lines to read
[17:53:44] <kaydara> in each line i should read strings separeted by a space
[17:53:51] <kaydara> but i dunno how many strings
[17:53:53] <kaydara> i will read
[17:53:58] <kaydara> i need to read till \n
[17:54:00] <d03boy> a LINE is not a string separated by a space, this is why you're confusing me
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[17:54:26] <kaydara> ofc not
[17:54:35] <omry> d03boy, StringTokenizer
[17:55:21] <kaydara> omry: thats exactly that
[17:55:27] <kaydara> seacrhed in api now thkx
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[17:58:36] <hzsp> kaydara: I told you how to do this half an hour ago, why are you asking again?
[17:59:19] <d03boy> doesnt have a very good grasp on english.. probably didnt understand anything you said
[17:59:28] <hzsp> then he should say so
[17:59:42] <d03boy> i agree.
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[18:01:26] <kaydara> eheheh u are funny d03boy... i havent saw cuz have to quit at that moment
[18:02:01] <Logi> kaydara: BufferedReader has a readLine method
[18:02:07] <Logi> kaydara: then String has a split method
[18:02:23] <d03boy> ugh
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[18:03:21] * Logi hits the mini bar
[18:03:47] <d03boy> he's saying line, but he's not meaning line
[18:04:10] <Logi> d03boy: he did say "i need to read till \n"
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[18:04:34] <Logi> Pringles, Carlsber, irc and cnn... what better way to spend a Fridya night?
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[18:05:00] <doc|work> Hookers, cocaine and a jacuzzi?
[18:05:08] <Logi> doc|work: damn you Dave!
[18:05:16] <kaydara> using split to a String[] atm
[18:05:25] <Logi> doc|work: uh... there is the hotel sauna
[18:05:36] <doc|work> Logi: but the bubbles.... always does the job...
[18:05:38] <Logi> doc|work: Receptionists, Carlsberg and Sauna?
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[18:05:48] <yupp> hello
[18:05:51] <Logi> doc|work: dude, this is Finland, they don't *wear* anything in the sauna
[18:06:02] <Clackwell> hi
[18:06:11] <yupp> does java supports default value of fucntion argument ??
[18:06:15] <Clackwell> nudist sauna? disgusting
[18:06:18] <Logi> yupp: nope
[18:06:24] <Clackwell> yupp: why not google?
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[18:06:46] <yupp> Clackwell: it is too specific :))
[18:06:48] <yupp> thanks
[18:07:28] <yupp> Logi: maybe there is something similar ?
[18:07:35] <Clackwell> yupp: given that google suggest suggests "java default parameters" i guess you have aissue.
[18:08:01] 
[18:08:48] <Logi> yupp: just overloading
[18:09:12] <Stork> i made a seperate class to save my data to a text file (since my keys are now byte[]), but now i have to figure out how to save a number as well as that data without mixing it. how could i do that?
[18:09:19] <yupp> thanks
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[18:10:24] <Logi> Stork: use a properties file?
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[18:10:39] <Logi> Stork: that's a ready-made sinple text format for you
[18:10:49] <Stork> Clackwell: it's not readable text
[18:10:55] <Stork> eurgh, auto complete
[18:10:59] <Stork> well , it's not readable text
[18:11:17] <Clackwell> Stork: make it readable?
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[18:11:31] <Stork> that wouldn't work, since it could be anything
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[18:11:42] <Logi> Stork: uh, did you take the byte[] and call new String() on it?
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[18:12:00] <Clackwell> Stork: consider base64 and similar
[18:12:06] <Stork> no because the byte[] could be anything from a word document to an mp3 file
[18:12:07] <Logi> Stork: that will give you pain later, you need base64 or similar to code the binary data as a string
[18:12:24] <Logi> Stork: then that's not a text file you're writing it to
[18:12:50] <Stork> oh god, good point
[18:12:56] * Logi 's spider sense has a tingling snake-oil receptor
[18:13:30] <Logi> Stork: you're going to use an arbitrary data file (such as a Word document) as the key in your OTP scheme?
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[18:14:11] <Logi> OTP is so incredibly simple, but one MUST NOT cout corners AT ALL
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[18:14:32] <cybereal> Logi: he's gone
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[18:14:52] <Adkron> does anyone know how I can change an inputstream into a byte array with standard libraries?
[18:15:05] <Logi> cybereal: I know, I'm just bemoaning the state of the world
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[18:15:17] <Logi> *blink*
[18:15:51] <Stork> Clackwell: how could i write both a number & a set of bytes to a file without them being confused together :\
[18:15:57] <Stork> omg, auto complete
[18:16:04] * Stork bashes head against keyboard
[18:16:21] <Logi> Adkron: read what I wrote 40 minutes ago
[18:16:31] <Logi> Adkron: and possibly what roots- then wrote
[18:16:34] <Stork> how could i write both a number & a set of bytes to a file without them being confused together :\
[18:16:52] <Logi> Stork: dude, are you letting people use an arbitrary file as the key to an OTP scheme?
[18:17:05] <Clackwell> Stork: fixed size records, type and length information in the file, etc. pp.
[18:17:07] * cheeser sprinkles pixie dust on Stork's data.
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[18:17:17] <Clackwell> i'd really settle on base64 encoding or so.
[18:17:18] <Stork> i think i understand what you mean logi, and no i'm not
[18:17:19] <Clackwell> hi cheeser
[18:17:45] <Logi> Stork: just because you said the byte[] could be the content of a Word file, mp3 or similar
[18:17:57] <Adkron> logi thanks
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[18:18:21] <Logi> Adkron: ok, now, you don't in general know the size of a file before you start reading it
[18:18:26] <Logi> Adkron: uh, of a stream
[18:18:32] <cheeser> hey Clackwell
[18:18:35] <Logi> Adkron: you can ask about the size of a stream
[18:18:51] <Logi> cheeser: hey, wanna come for a beer in Helsinki in, say 42 minutes?
[18:18:52] <Stork> Logi: i meant it could be a completely random set of bytes
[18:18:59] <Logi> Stork: ok...
[18:19:03] <cheeser> Logi: i do.
[18:19:11] <cheeser> i'm afraid i can't make it, though...
[18:19:17] <Logi> cheeser: ok, I found a nice place yesterday called Belge... oh, well...
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[18:19:40] <Stork> so Logi, any ideas?
[18:19:55] <Logi> Stork: you need to write a single int and then arbitrary binary data to a file?
[18:20:12] <Stork> pretty much, yes
[18:20:52] <Logi> Stork: well, then create a DataOutputStream and write an int and then the byte array and read it back with a DataInputStream in the same order
[18:21:08] <Logi> Stork: because the int is fixed size and the remainder is expected to be the other binary data
[18:21:16] <Logi> Stork: and of course that's not a text file
[18:21:20] <Adkron> Logi: I have to get a file from and FTP server and then I have to put it in a web API that retruns an XML document.
[18:21:22] <Stork> awesome, thanks, i'll try that
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[18:22:19] <Logi> Adkron: uh, that wasn't incredibly clear, but fine. Do you want the entire file in memory at the same time? Are you sure?
[18:22:37] <_m0O> hi I am wondering how do we generate EJB related files? I already created an EJB application
[18:22:53] <Logi> cheeser: why can't people come back with more interesting questins after they've had the usual issues explained to them?
[18:22:54] <_m0O> I am using eclipse
[18:23:19] <cybereal> Adkron: Getting a file and putting it in xml in a web api?  Wtf?   Did we all forget what http was originally invented for?
[18:23:33] <Adkron> Logi: I prefer not to copy it to the hd first so yes I guess I want it all in memory
[18:24:24] <cheeser> Logi: i've been trying to figure that one out, too.
[18:24:24] <Adkron> cybereal: I can't help it.  This is what my boss wants.  I write java APIs that produce XML documents mainly to transmit information from an oracle database
[18:24:45] <cybereal> Adkron: but that's just kind of silly since http *IS* a "web api" for sending files
[18:24:53] <cybereal> or at least, for retrieving them
[18:25:21] <Adkron> cybereal: this is for a map server check out www.terraserver-usa.com
[18:25:31] <Logi> Adkron: can you read the original file bit by bit, handle each chunk and output it without ever having the whole thing in memory?
[18:25:39] <Logi> Adkron: or is it just a small file anyway?
[18:26:08] <Logi> sigh... the Italians want me to go to Greece in November
[18:26:22] <cheeser> Logi: i'll go.
[18:26:32] <Logi> cheeser: I wish
[18:26:41] <Logi> I've been travelling too bloody much
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[18:27:06] <Logi> (which is worse, referring to the blood of christ or uttering a vulgar term for fornication?)
[18:27:16] <Adkron> Logi: most of the files are very tiny.  I need to return the byte[] from my function.  The function is going to be accesable through an OC4J container
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[18:27:34] <Adkron> Logi: A few are large, but they must all be sent out to the same XML document.
[18:27:56] <Adkron> Logi: I should say a single file must be on one XML document
[18:28:15] <Adkron> Logi: The function can only return one file at a time.
[18:28:19] <Logi> Adkron: ok, the easey way, then, is to loop over inputStream.read(bufer); byteOutputStream.write(buffer)
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[18:29:21] <Adkron> Logi: thanks.  I had never used an inputstream before so I'm still learning how it works.  Thank you.
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[18:29:51] <Logi> Adkron: be careful that the read methods that read byte arrays will return the number of bytes that are actually read, which may be different from what you asked for
[18:30:25] <Adkron> alright
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[18:48:26] <[-D7-]> hello
[18:48:30] <[-D7-]> one question
[18:49:03] <[-D7-]> in jdk 1.5 , there are a modifiers in Map types
[18:49:35] <[-D7-]> like HashMap<String><Object>
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[18:49:42] <cybereal> Generics?
[18:49:44] <cheeser> javabot: tell [-D7-] about generics
[18:49:44] <javabot> [-D7-], generics is http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/generics.html
[18:50:03] <[-D7-]> yes
[18:50:14] <cybereal> I think it's <String, Object> in your example though
[18:50:19] <zedas> hey, any XStream users here run into the registerNative function throwing a Unsafe exception?
[18:50:19] <[-D7-]> is it more optimus ?
[18:50:28] <cybereal> It's a convenience feature
[18:50:33] <cybereal> just like everything else added in 1.5
[18:50:49] <zedas> google says it's a very common error in jrockit jvm, but I'm hitting it in all sun jvms on both windows and linux.
[18:50:56] <[-D7-]> cybereal, and performance ?
[18:51:01] <zedas> and bare minimum code, jvm 1.4.2
[18:51:04] <zedas> any ideas?
[18:51:11] <cybereal> [-D7-]: I am guessing that any effects, positive or negative, or minimal
[18:51:18] <cybereal> ~s/or/are
[18:51:19] <javabot> cybereal, I have no idea what s/or/are is.
[18:51:23] <cybereal> damn wrong bot
[18:51:38] <[-D7-]> ok ..thanks !!
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[19:03:42] <Jax> good evening!
[19:03:51] <Jax> is mysql a sin in this channel?
[19:04:01] <littlezoper> it is in any channel :)
[19:04:05] <Jax> dang
[19:04:06] <Jax> :D
[19:04:17] <Jax> well, i'm making this online shop, and i don't really feel like writing my own DBMS
[19:04:22] <cheeser> Jax: if you have a java question it's fine.
[19:04:30] <cheeser> but if you have mysql questions, you should ask in #mysql
[19:04:32] <littlezoper> Jax: pgsql :) and what cheeser said :)
[19:04:43] <mohadib> pgsql is not much better
[19:04:43] <cheeser> littlezoper: we're using mysql 5.0 on a projects.
[19:04:46] <cheeser> project.
[19:04:55] <Jax> well i got this addresses table lets say... and it has fields like postalcode, city, etc.. now in my app.. i'm not sure if i should make a method to update EACH field, or a method to update the whole row..
[19:04:59] <cheeser> mohadib: you're right.  it's not much better.
[19:05:02] <Jax> it's more of a conceptional OO question... >:)
[19:05:02] <cheeser> it's *way* better!
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[19:05:07] <mohadib> we use mysql 4 with a 24 gig compressed data set
[19:05:08] <littlezoper> cheeser: fast mover :)
[19:05:22] <cheeser> littlezoper: it easy to be when you control the entire stack.
[19:05:22] <cheeser> 8^)=
[19:05:29] <Jax> i.e updatePostalCode(newcode) or updateAddress(postalcode, city, etc)
[19:05:30] <mohadib> cheeser: both suck compared to a real db
[19:05:43] <cheeser> javabot: mohadib--
[19:05:45] <javabot> mohadib has a karma level of 51, cheeser
[19:05:46] <littlezoper> cheeser: true
[19:05:47] <mohadib> and with mysql 5  , postgres doesnt have much on mysql
[19:06:00] <cheeser> except about 5 years
[19:06:01] <cheeser> 8^)=
[19:06:05] <littlezoper> mohadib: that remains to be seen
[19:06:11] <Epesh> and a history of quality
[19:06:16] <Jax> answer me please :D instead of participating in flame wars
[19:06:17] <cybereal> I'll take pgsql over mysql any day
[19:06:23] <cybereal> mysql = toy
[19:06:28] <Epesh> so yeah, mysql 5 is just as good as postgres, except in that quality and history bit
[19:06:28] <mohadib> so psql
[19:06:34] <mohadib> ask anyonw with a real dataset
[19:06:35] <littlezoper> Epesh: hehe
[19:06:36] <cheeser> Jax: use hibernate and don't worry about it.
[19:06:54] <Jax> hibernate?
[19:07:00] <cheeser> mohadib: i've used pgsql on several projects now.  works like a champ.
[19:07:05] <cheeser> javabot: tell jax about hibernate
[19:07:05] <javabot> jax, hibernate is a nice ORM [see orm] tool and can be found at http://www.hibernate.org/ and #hibernate
[19:07:10] * littlezoper is off to fight the forces of Nod...
[19:07:21] <mohadib> cheeser: for any chumpy web app mysql/pgsql is fine
[19:07:33] <bpalmer> littlezoper: never give up, never surrender!
[19:07:43] <littlezoper> bpalmer: w00t! :)
[19:07:47] <mohadib> when you add a real load and a real data set ... neither scale
[19:07:52] <cheeser> mohadib: i think it's your lack of skills.
[19:07:53] <cheeser> 8^)=
[19:08:01] <cheeser> bpalmer: good movie.
[19:08:03] <mohadib> cheeser: i have a 24gig data set in mysql
[19:08:06] <mohadib> it works fine
[19:08:06] <littlezoper> pgsql runs rubyforge just fine from what I hear
[19:08:08] <mohadib> thats skills
[19:08:13] <Epesh> littlezoper: yes
[19:08:19] <Epesh> mohadib: no, that' simple data
[19:08:24] <mohadib> cheeser: compressed
[19:08:26] <Epesh> biiig difference
[19:08:41] * cheeser nods sagely.
[19:08:43] <mohadib> Epesh: with the set we still mangae to get fast queries
[19:08:46] <mohadib> and inserts
[19:08:47] <Epesh> so?
[19:08:50] * hzsp orf
[19:08:52] <Epesh> Still simple data :)
[19:08:55] <hzsp> night you lot
[19:08:57] <mohadib> Epesh: so , WTF else is supposed to do
[19:08:58] <cheeser> i think mohadib is undermining his point...
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[19:09:06] <Epesh> cheeser: yep :)
[19:09:09] <mohadib> it doesnt have triggers
[19:09:18] <mohadib> it doesnt support alot of features
[19:09:18] <cheeser> mysql sucks!  try it with realy data!  i have 24G of data and mysql runs fast!
[19:09:21] * Epesh grins
[19:09:28] <Jax> mohadib what doesn't have triggers?
[19:09:33] <mohadib> cheeser: mysql4
[19:09:45] <mohadib> or views
[19:09:48] <cheeser> 5 does.
[19:09:48] <mohadib> or sequences
[19:09:52] <mohadib> no kidding
[19:09:52] <Epesh> mysql is proof that most developers don't get databases
[19:09:53] <Jax> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/CREATE_TRIGGER.html
[19:09:59] <cheeser> Epesh: heh
[19:10:08] <cheeser> Epesh: i refer to mysql as a datastore rather than a database
[19:10:09] <cheeser> 8^)=
[19:10:14] <Epesh> and the fact that it's so popular (and yet so successful) is simply validation of that
[19:10:17] <bpalmer> yeah, that's what I was going to say
[19:10:22] <Epesh> cheeser: yes, it's ISAM + a SQL dialect
[19:10:28] <mohadib> cheeser: i use inoodb
[19:10:35] <mohadib> myisam is weak
[19:10:42] <Epesh> haha
[19:10:44] <Clackwell> mohadib: whoracle zealot!
[19:10:48] <mohadib> Jax: that link is for mysql5
[19:10:50] <mohadib> hello
[19:10:50] <Epesh> innodb is just a bit better than myisam :)
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[19:10:58] <cheeser> i studied the isam/vsam formats in uni.  interesting stuff.
[19:11:00] <mohadib> Epesh: a lot better
[19:11:12] <mohadib> row level locking and rollbacks make it waaaay y better
[19:11:20] <mohadib> maybe try using it and then talk about it
[19:11:23] <shredstar> so whats the difference between a database & datastore? In one sentence.
[19:11:29] <cheeser> ACID
[19:11:35] <Epesh> mohadib: I have used it.
[19:11:44] <Epesh> I've used most of the dbs out there, come to think of it.
[19:11:57] <mohadib> thats nice
[19:12:28] <cheeser> Epesh is a nice guy.
[19:12:28] <cheeser> 8^)=
[19:12:29] <mohadib> arguing over pgsql vs mysql is like arguing over which american car type sucks less
[19:12:38] <mohadib> noone cares
[19:12:45] <cheeser> i think pgsql sucks less then mohadib
[19:12:48] <cheeser> oops mysql
[19:12:49] <cheeser> 8^)=
[19:12:59] <cheeser> less *than*
[19:13:07] <mohadib> good one sport
[19:13:09] * cheeser bows.
[19:13:20] <cheeser> stupid tab completion <wink/>
[19:13:23] <Epesh> mohadib: I dunno, mysql v. postgres has distinct advantages for each one
[19:13:51] <Epesh> mysql is great if you have simple datasets, the speed is really impressive. The brittle nature of the datastore is easily overcome with a decent backup strategy,
[19:13:53] <mohadib> sure , but to write off mysql as a pos in comparison to pgsql is ....  goofy
[19:14:07] <Epesh> postgres is better if you have someone who knows databases - even a little, say.
[19:14:17] <cheeser> unless of course, you've used both and know what you're talking about
[19:14:18] <cheeser> 8^)=
[19:14:24] <Epesh> ANd there's no doubt in my mind which one is less brittle, more reliable.
[19:14:29] <mohadib> pgsql has always had more features... till mysql 5
[19:14:57] <Epesh> mohadib: I thought the opposite, actually. Mysql has more bullet-point features, just fewer of the features you actually want in a db.
[19:15:06] <mohadib> ;p
[19:15:22] <mohadib> Epesh: anywho , im no database guru , so ill shut it now :)
[19:15:27] <mohadib> have a gret day everyone
[19:15:34] <mohadib> you too ricflazz
[19:16:31] <Cow_woC> umm, so anyway... how is mysql 5. I've never tried it.
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[19:16:39] <Cow_woC> is it really that much better? :)
[19:16:43] <timing> sorry :D something went wrong here
[19:16:48] <cheeser> Cow_woC: i'll let you know in a few weeks.  8^)-
[19:17:09] <mohadib> cheeser: it supports triggers and views
[19:17:10] <Cow_woC> you've just upgraded?
[19:17:14] <mohadib> just to start
[19:17:21] <cheeser> Cow_woC: trying to yes.
[19:17:22] <mohadib> and sequences
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[19:17:30] <Cow_woC> ok, cool ... let me know :)
[19:17:31] <cheeser> i have to run 4.x and 5.x simultaneously.
[19:17:40] <cheeser> so i'm having to massage 5.x into place
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[19:21:31] <dmlloyd|work> they have jdbc drivers for 5 already?
[19:21:42] <cheeser> apparently.
[19:21:49] <cheeser> i wouldn't think they'd release without it.
[19:22:01] <cheeser> and I can't imagine the interface changing that much.
[19:22:05] <dmlloyd|work> you never know what motivates people.
[19:22:16] <cheeser> iirc, mm-mysql is a commiter and he's the driver maintainer.
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[19:23:50] <Cow_woC> the latest mysql 4.1 "stable" drivers are buggy and break JIRA badly
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[19:24:02] <Cow_woC> but the author is unable to reproduce it to track down the problem in thr drivers
[19:24:11] <veleno> i'm looking for someone good in xslt, since i wrote this piece of code: http://veleno.pastebin.com/409100 but i can't imagine how to obtain the same with fewer lines of code
[19:24:28] <Cow_woC> so do yourself a favor and avoid Connector/J 3.1.11 and up
[19:24:35] <Cow_woC> 3.1.10 works fine
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[19:28:12] <Jax> so what DBMS would you chose for an online shop?
[19:28:19] <Jax> selling printer cartridges.. nothing huge
[19:28:23] <Jax> let's say like 800 clients
[19:28:25] <Kallistor> that looks really really ugly veleno
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[19:28:38] <Jax> multi-lingual
[19:28:47] <veleno> Kallistor, sorry, i know, i couln't write it shorter :(
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[19:32:09] <shredstar> what is the biggest deficiency with postgresql?
[19:32:43] <Clackwell> open sores?
[19:32:49] * Clackwell runs
[19:33:05] <Kallistor> speed mainly
[19:33:14] <mohadib> shredstar: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mysql+vs+postgresql+vs+oracle&btnG=Google+Search
[19:33:32] * Jax lays termite-eggs into the open wounds
[19:33:39] <Sou|cutter> shredstar: there is no deficiency.  random side-note, I know at least one postgresql commiter lives at #sql
[19:33:41] <Kallistor> havent seen any decent performance comparison's though
[19:33:51] <Kallistor> recent*
[19:34:08] <Clackwell> Kallistor: that's what they claim about every db engine, except whoracle, where they are not afraid of throwing a few hundred thousand usd at some specialist to optimize the utter crap that their software developers crafted.
[19:34:23] <mohadib> heh
[19:34:40] <mohadib> sometimes oracle is needed even with good software making use of it
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[19:35:26] <mohadib> if it wasnt so , people wouldnt pay so flipping much for it
[19:35:41] <Kallistor> well
[19:35:44] <Jax> gah somebody please give me an idea on how to fit an OO model over a DBMS
[19:35:54] <Kallistor> generally managers decide what gets bought
[19:36:22] <mohadib> at my interview fa NCGR (ncgr.org) , they all but laughed me out of the building when i mentioned my pgsql and mysql exp
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[19:36:30] <Kallistor> they tend to go with the safe options :)
[19:36:32] <mohadib> they told me that stuff was for kids :p
[19:36:37] <Clackwell> mohadib: in some cases people are misinformed, uneducated, unwilling to pay for help, or management has no patience for the screw ups of their own folks, so they throw the big bucks at it, hoping that will solve the problem for good.
[19:36:48] <Clackwell> and sometimes...yes, sometimes they throw mysql at it, and hope the same...
[19:37:11] <mohadib> Clackwell: the person i was talking to has a PHD in CS from Carnige Mellon
[19:37:42] <mohadib> and all the coworkers are equally educated , they are mapping the human genom
[19:38:02] <mohadib> and considered mysql/pgsql crap ... for their work anyway
[19:38:21] <Cow_woC> here is a random tipbit
[19:38:25] <Cow_woC> tidbit rather
[19:38:27] <Clackwell> mohadib: i disagree with that attitude in general. i think that my insight into our own db engine will help me a lot with other db engines too.
[19:38:34] <Jax> don't talk to people who say something is crap
[19:38:37] <Jax> that's rule #1
[19:38:44] <Jax> because if you do, you're working with some lame-ass idiots
[19:38:47] <Clackwell> Jax is crap!
[19:38:47] <Cow_woC> a few years back, IBM discovered was doing a code review of DB2 and discovered a lot of wastage. In one case someone reimplemented the same function 32 times across their code
[19:38:50] <Jax> >;Z
[19:38:54] <mohadib> Clackwell: i have never had a data set like those guys , so ime , mysql/pgsql is fine
[19:38:56] <roots-> thats a crap statement :)
[19:38:57] <Clackwell> Jax, sorry, could not resist
[19:39:00] <Cow_woC> and gave it different function names... gotta love that eh? :)
[19:39:06] <roots-> these days you can consider yourself lucky if you have any job at all
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[19:39:26] * Cow_woC seconds roots-'s statement
[19:39:45] <Cow_woC> hey look ... the problem is all those idiots with Masters and PhDs willing to work for free
[19:40:13] <Cow_woC> if they negotiated better we wouldn't be expected to have 10 years experience for taking out the garbage
[19:40:23] <Clackwell> mohadib: yeah, it always depends on so many factors. as a general rule it seems to me that it is wrong to generalize based on your own limited experience. and it goes in both directions, those developing with notepad, screaming that it does all you need are equally wrong like those who claim that you need the biggest, fattest IDE ever developed to do any productive work at all.
[19:40:38] <mohadib> Clackwell: i was not generalizing
[19:40:44] <Cow_woC> nowadays every employer seems to think that their job a) requires and b) warrants a PhD employee because heck there are so many of them .. and heck, lets pay them crap
[19:40:49] <Clackwell> mohadib: oh i wasn't accusing you of that.
[19:40:51] <mohadib> infact i was trying to stop people from saying mysql is a toy
[19:40:55] <mohadib> ok :)
[19:41:03] <cheeser> /6/6
[19:41:22] <Jax> i still need help trying to transfer an object to a db
[19:41:31] <Jax> i.e how the class definition and methods should look like
[19:42:27] <Clackwell> mohadib: db engines are a more tricky field however in my experience and opinion, because a lot of people are using them while having absolutely no clue about the internal workings of the same. that's as if average joe would try to build a car on his own, adding a porsche engine to a volkswagen car, and then whining about how that engine isn't performing as well as he assumed it would.
[19:43:43] <mohadib> javabot: Clackwell++
[19:43:53] <javabot> clackwell has a karma level of 24, mohadib
[19:44:07] <roots-> arcor.de uses mysql for session management
[19:44:10] <roots-> at least used to back then
[19:44:12] <mohadib> Clackwell: i iget tired of people here who think they know everything and have no humility
[19:44:16] <roots-> anything else wouldnt work out speedwise
[19:44:31] <roots-> transactions, redo logs, tablespaces, segments, my ass
[19:44:32] <Clackwell> we had that one guy using delphi, whining about performance. it turned out that he created and closed a connection with every statement that he fired at the db engine.
[19:44:47] <Clackwell> that's a very costly operation in our db engine, so performance sucked, yes.
[19:45:00] <roots-> i tuned an oracle db by taking an already tuned db, exporting the damn thing
[19:45:06] <roots-> and importing into a default setup db
[19:45:18] <roots-> with just a large ass SGA and stats enabled
[19:45:23] <roots-> stripped out all hints
[19:45:40] <roots-> customer spend a lot on tuning before
[19:45:50] <roots-> so i did say "i made some further improvements"
[19:45:53] <roots-> i am never negative on the job
[19:47:53] <Clackwell> "your guys suck, kick them out. hire me. i am not an egomanic geek."
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[19:48:16] <ernimril> roots-: did they have statistics before you started collecting it?
[19:48:59] <roots-> hmm i didnt check
[19:49:17] <roots-> i mean that would be something if they didnt
[19:49:22] <ernimril> roots-: ok, so you did not check the plans for the queries?
[19:49:44] <roots-> yes i did that and the plans were outrageously fucked
[19:49:51] <ernimril> roots-: with oracle/10 you have automatic statistics gathering daily, but with oracle/9.x you do not..
[19:50:05] <roots-> that was ora8
[19:50:17] <roots-> and you needed to run stats package as a job like daily
[19:50:41] <ernimril> roots-: only if you change your data a lot on a daily basis
[19:50:51] <roots-> yes true
[19:51:14] <roots-> that db changed maybe 30% daily
[19:51:15] <roots-> easily
[19:51:27] <roots-> query plans were bad because it was full of hints
[19:51:31] <roots-> query hints in sql
[19:51:31] <ernimril> roots-: but did the number of rows in the tables change?
[19:51:54] <ernimril> roots-: bad hints is awful...there is a hint to stop other hints... :-)
[19:51:59] <tieTYT> what are hints?
[19:52:15] <roots-> yes it did for a few core tables
[19:52:17] <ernimril> tieTYT: telling oracle that you know more how the query should be run...
[19:52:18] <roots-> most were static
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[19:52:33] <roots-> but histograms can change independent of record count
[19:52:34] <ernimril> tieTYT: they tend to be wrong after some time...
[19:52:39] <tieTYT> oh
[19:52:44] <tieTYT> interesting
[19:52:54] <tieTYT> that borders on dba work right?
[19:52:59] <ernimril> tieTYT: yes
[19:53:01] <tieTYT> ok
[19:53:19] <tieTYT> it's amazing to me how I feel competent with oracle and yet I seemingly know 1% about it
[19:53:24] <ernimril> tieTYT: if you do larger applications you will talk to db:s so you want to know the basics about them...
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[19:53:34] <tieTYT> yeah
[19:53:42] <tieTYT> i read a portion of the oracle concepts guide
[19:53:45] <tieTYT> i'll finish reading that some day
[19:54:33] <IMTheNachoMan> ~nio
[19:54:33] <javabot> IMTheNachoMan, nio is http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/nio/ and http://grexengine.com/sections/people/adam/nio/Converting_Tetris_from_io_to_NIO.html and http://gee.cs.oswego.edu/dl/cpjslides/nio.pdf
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[19:57:03] <tieTYT> you guys ever read the pragmatic programmer?  They talk about writing code generators
[19:57:31] <ernimril> tieTYT: more or less yes...
[19:57:45] <ernimril> tieTYT: code generators can be good...
[19:58:13] <defcon8> public class Main {
[19:58:13] <defcon8>
[19:58:13] <defcon8>     /** Creates a new instance of Main */
[19:58:13] <defcon8>     public Main() {
[19:58:13] <defcon8>     }
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[19:58:16] <defcon8> whoops
[19:58:19] <defcon8> sorry :(
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[19:58:31] <defcon8> thought the flood was up to 4 lines
[19:58:42] <defcon8> why do we need   public Main() {
[19:58:42] <defcon8>     } there?
[19:58:49] <ernimril> defcon8: it is 2 and that was 5
[19:59:07] <defcon8> yes
[19:59:09] <ernimril> defcon8: you do not need it
[19:59:20] <defcon8> i thought i understood that but now i dont
[20:00:49] <defcon8> could you explain?
[20:01:15] <ernimril> defcon8: if you have a question you better ask it...
[20:02:09] <defcon8> could you explain the public Main() {}
[20:02:49] <ernimril> defcon8: you have not asked a question.
[20:02:56] <defcon8> could you explain the public Main() {}?
[20:03:11] <Sou|cutter> ~tell defcon8 about firstcup
[20:03:11] <javabot> defcon8, firstcup is http://java.sun.com/tutorial/getStarted/cupojava
[20:03:14] <Clackwell> defcon8: public static main(String[] args), and that is the starting point of each java application.
[20:03:26] <Sou|cutter> Clackwell: public static void
[20:03:34] <defcon8> is it to do with inheritance or something?
[20:03:41] <Sou|cutter> no
[20:03:43] <Clackwell> Sou|cutter: <groan> right
[20:04:02] <Clackwell> defcon8: it has to do with "hey java virtual machine, start this program here"
[20:04:26] <defcon8> but ernimril said it isnt needed
[20:04:38] <Clackwell> defcon8: it is needed for java applications.
[20:04:57] <Clackwell> defcon8: stop worrying about it, just put it in each class that you want to be able to execute and move on.
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[20:05:56] <defcon8> its defining a function without anything inside it isnt it
[20:06:31] <defcon8> but i seem to remember something about defining a function with the same name of the class being something special about it or soemthing
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[20:06:55] <IMTheNachoMan> defcon8 woah, you dont know?
[20:07:08] <ernimril> defcon8: 1) it is method, not function. 2) that is a constructor
[20:07:08] <defcon8> ahh i think i get it
[20:07:15] <IMTheNachoMan> defcon8 humm i hate to say this, casue i usually dont, but start from the beginning of a java book
[20:07:16] <Clackwell> defcon8: go do the tutorial
[20:07:21] <Clackwell> you are falling apart
[20:07:24] <defcon8> i have been reading it
[20:07:28] <IMTheNachoMan> else someone is gonna have to teach you from the start
[20:07:29] <Clackwell> defcon8: read it again.
[20:07:34] <Clackwell> defcon8: and DO it.
[20:07:34] <IMTheNachoMan> and that can take a while
[20:07:37] <defcon8> naah i meant method when talking about a function
[20:07:38] <Clackwell> exercise.
[20:07:45] <defcon8> ok
[20:07:58] <defcon8> its what will be executed when the class is initialised?
[20:08:00] <IMTheNachoMan> defcon8 not trying to pick on you, but what your asking is a VERY basic question
[20:08:07] <Clackwell> defcon8: alternative reading can be "thinking in java" by bruce eckel. google for the download address
[20:08:30] <Clackwell> defcon8: and the approach that you take is "java by guessing".
[20:08:41] <Clackwell> "java by guessing" < "java by tutorial"
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[20:09:16] <IMTheNachoMan> Clackwell more like "java by guessing <<< "java by tutorial"
[20:09:26] <Clackwell> IMTheNachoMan: stop the bitshifting
[20:09:35] <defcon8>     public ClickMe() {
[20:09:35] <defcon8>         addMouseListener(this);
[20:09:50] * Clackwell makes the "way over his head" gesture
[20:09:56] <IMTheNachoMan> Clackwell i meant it as much greator then, heh sorry
[20:10:02] <IMTheNachoMan> http://mindview.net/Books
[20:10:05] <defcon8> right ok
[20:10:14] <defcon8> damn i have made a right n00b iof myself todayu
[20:10:40] <defcon8> /** Creates and initializes the ClickMe component. */
[20:10:43] <defcon8> hmm
[20:11:29] <defcon8> ill just read the concepts of OOP again
[20:12:02] <Clackwell> defcon8: did you create that piece of code? with what tool?
[20:12:05] <defcon8> oooooo!
[20:12:07] <defcon8> i get it
[20:12:10] <defcon8> Clackwell, from the tutorial
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[20:12:19] <defcon8> It also declares two methods and a constructor — a subroutine used to initialize new objects created from the class.
[20:12:42] <Clackwell> defcon8: aren't you in the gui programming trail there?
[20:12:46] <defcon8> no
[20:12:50] <{aaron}> i'm trying to get a list-backed property working with struts.  this requires random access to slots which may not "exist" yet in the list (list.get() list.set()).  is there a better structure to use?
[20:12:52] <IMTheNachoMan> if i recommend a bot in here will somone listen
[20:12:52] <defcon8> http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/java/concepts/practical.html
[20:13:22] <defcon8> so it must be what is executed when the class is initialised
[20:13:36] <{aaron}> because List seems determined to throw indexoutofbounds if the index is not within the size
[20:13:54] <{aaron}> and there is no "setsize" on arraylist
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[20:14:06] <{aaron}> so that would mean i'd have to tediously add null items
[20:14:27] <defcon8> no it isnt
[20:15:04] <defcon8> you see, i have been reading the tutorial but it doesnt really explain what a constructor is
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[20:15:32] <defcon8> oh or does it just init new objects
[20:15:41] <roots-> 2 weeks vacation
[20:15:43] <roots-> keep the channel tidy
[20:15:50] <roots-> and the vi users out :)
[20:15:53] <Clackwell> defcon8: http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=what+is+a+constructor+java&btnG=Search
[20:16:12] <Sou|cutter> ~constructor
[20:16:12] <javabot> Sou|cutter, constructor is http://java.sun.com/tutorial/java/javaOO/constructors.html
[20:16:22] <Clackwell> defcon8: always use more than one resource, esp. when you get stuck. and prefer non-interactive over interactive resources first.
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[20:17:03] <tieTYT> vi users out?
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[20:17:22] <Clackwell> defcon8: not sure if you had this one already: http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=site%3Ajava.sun.com+constructor+tutorial&btnG=Search
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[20:18:37] <defcon8> yes i will have a look
[20:19:45] <Clackwell> defcon8: another approach: http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=%22what+is+a+constructor%22+java&btnG=Search
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[20:20:39] <IMTheNachoMan> http://grouphug.us/  freakin hilarious
[20:21:13] <ab0oo> any JMS experience in the house today?  I'd like someone to help me understand durability and persistance.
[20:21:32] <Clackwell> after searching for what a constructor is at google, in the sponsored links: http://pastebin.com/409168
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[20:21:43] <Clackwell> gee, free registration, i am so glad they are offering that.
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[20:23:27] <{aaron}> IMTheNachoMan: work safe?
[20:23:39] <Clackwell> IMTheNachoMan: i am not sure this qualifies as "information at your fingertips" as envisioned by bill gates.
[20:23:50] <{aaron}> bah, i'll just use a map to implement the indexed property :6
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[20:24:05] <tag> [javac] *** Semantic Warning: Local "url" shadows a field of the same name in "com.codefaction.XMLHttpRequest"
[20:24:27] <tag> the only reason I'm wondering about that is that, well, I've compiled this successfully before on another machine.
[20:24:47] <IMTheNachoMan> {aaron} no pictures, just text stuff, has bad words though
[20:25:18] <Sou|cutter> tag: It's just a warning.  But it may indicate unexpected behavior when that code executes
[20:25:20] <IMTheNachoMan> Clackwell yeah but its funny right?
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[20:26:05] <IMTheNachoMan> tag maybe the other machine did not have com.codefaction.XMLHttpRequest
[20:26:30] <Sou|cutter> tag: If you want to get rid of the warning, rename the variable to something not existing in a super class
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[20:26:32] <Clackwell> IMTheNachoMan: naw
[20:26:44] <IMTheNachoMan> Clackwell oh ok
[20:27:04] <IMTheNachoMan> later guys, peace
[20:27:16] <Clackwell> IMTheNachoMan: the stupid entries aside, the more serious ones make me feel like a peeping tom.
[20:27:28] <Clackwell> i AM a peeping tom, but i want boobs and butts, not thoughts.
[20:27:44] <IMTheNachoMan> Clackwell im only interested in the funny ones
[20:27:49] <Clackwell> IMTheNachoMan: ;)
[20:27:50] <IMTheNachoMan> Clackwell and some are down right hilaroius
[20:28:03] <Clackwell> tag: i imagine a different version could also introduce such effects all willynilly.
[20:28:32] <puff> Question;  in my JDBC code, I havea try/catch/finally.  The finally clause closes the connection, then the statement, then the resultset.
[20:28:34] <Clackwell> a friend is asking me wether i'd like to watch the doom movie. holy cow.
[20:28:41] <nmx> i do
[20:28:46] <cheeser> it's good
[20:28:54] <Clackwell> puff: sounds like the wrong order?
[20:28:54] <nmx> how could you not? it's DOOM for goodness' sake
[20:28:56] <Clackwell> cheeser: oh?
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[20:29:08] <cheeser> Clackwell: yeah.  it's an action flick so it's not gonna change your life.
[20:29:14] <tieTYT> not according to every critic and friend i have
[20:29:18] <cheeser> but if you liked the game(s), you'll like the movie.
[20:29:33] <puff> Clackwell: Yeah, I'm wondering if that could cause problems.
[20:29:35] <nmx> Clackwell: the rock was on the daily show, and he brought the BFG with him... that thing was cool
[20:29:44] <Clackwell> nmx: ah, cool ;)
[20:29:46] <puff> We upgraded to the mysql jdbc 3.1.10 driver recently;   I found a bug (http://bugs.mysql.com/bug.php?id=13204) that seems to indicate that 3.1.10 is pickier about cleanup.
[20:29:51] <cheeser> nmx: i saw that.  that was a fun episode.
[20:29:55] <vinse> cheeser: i dunno, i've liked a lot of games, but i've never seen a good video game movie
[20:30:03] <nmx> cheeser: very, the rock appears to be a funny guy
[20:30:04] <cheeser> Resident Evil wasn't bad.
[20:30:06] <joev> I don't think I can watch Doom unless they used an AdLib or 8 bit Soundblaster for the music.
[20:30:08] <cheeser> nmx: yeah
[20:30:10] <Clackwell> yeah, resident evil was ok
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[20:30:13] <joev> It just won't be the same.
[20:30:13] <vinse> what happened to the good old days? when games were based on movies?
[20:30:13] * puff wants to see a DOOM movie starring Bruce Campbell.
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[20:30:36] <nmx> vinse: if the "gold old days" include E.T. for atari i think we can let them rest
[20:30:37] <cheeser> puff: haha
[20:30:37] <{aaron}> that's duke nukem ;)
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[20:30:51] <cybereal> Duke Nukem sucks
[20:30:51] <joev> vinse: Mortal Kombat was fun.
[20:31:05] <defcon8> what does static mean/
[20:31:07] <cybereal> At least, the 3D version sucked
[20:31:21] <nmx> defcon8: that's what you get when your tv isn't tuned to any particular signal
[20:31:25] <pchapman> joev, Only the first Mortal Kombat.  The 2nd and third sucked.
[20:31:34] <defcon8> nmx, hohohoho
[20:31:38] <tieTYT> there was a 3rd mortal combat?
[20:31:44] <joev> I didn't even know they made a second..
[20:31:45] <tieTYT> which one was annihilation?
[20:31:56] <pchapman> tieTYT, Afraid so.  It was pretty bad.
[20:32:08] <nmx> pchapman: as bad as the mario bros. movie?
[20:32:15] <tieTYT> haha mario bros
[20:32:20] <tieTYT> i saw that when i was a kid
[20:32:23] <tieTYT> so i liked it
[20:32:27] <pchapman> nmx, That's another bad one.
[20:32:27] <nmx> ugh
[20:32:30] * pchapman runs to puke.
[20:32:33] <puff> At least the movie had a good sound track.
[20:32:37] <joev> bob haskins, jon leguizamo
[20:32:46] <nmx> puff: you can't beat the soundtrack of the game though
[20:32:48] <{aaron}> jon leguizamo was in MK?
[20:32:53] <joev> in MB.
[20:32:59] <joev> Wasn't he Luigi?
[20:33:04] <tieTYT> yes
[20:33:05] <{aaron}> oh mario brothers
[20:33:16] <tieTYT> remember the wizard?
[20:33:20] <joev> that's an odd bit of casting.
[20:33:30] <nmx> it was an odd bit of filmmaking
[20:33:36] <{aaron}> joev: jon leguizam is always "Benny Blanko from the Bronx" to me
[20:33:47] <joev> heh.
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[20:33:58] <pchapman> It was a trademark waiting to be licensed.
[20:34:17] <pchapman> No need to do any writing, directing, or acting.  Just sell the trademark.
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[20:37:52] * cybereal loved The Wizard retroactively when SMB3 really came out
[20:38:04] <tieTYT> that game was badass
[20:38:09] <tieTYT> and i remember that movie being cool too
[20:38:10] <cybereal> *IS* badass
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[20:38:16] <cybereal> still remains one of the best games of all time
[20:38:20] <tieTYT> i agree
[20:38:25] <tieTYT> my favorite game is final fantasy 2
[20:38:39] <vinse> tetris
[20:38:40] <Clackwell> sex games
[20:38:43] <Clackwell> oops
[20:38:44] <cybereal> Tetris is good
[20:38:49] <Clackwell> (do c64 games count?)
[20:39:13] <cybereal> The game I can play the easiest for the longest time and remain entertained (my criteria for 'best') is Super Street Fighter II Turbo (any variation)
[20:39:17] <vinse> best games ever: tetris, hl(includes cs), john madden football
[20:39:54] <tieTYT> cybereal: are you good at it?
[20:40:07] <vinse> i logged uncounted hours at john madden football
[20:40:07] <tieTYT> do you understand the way it works?
[20:41:29] <cybereal> tieTYT, of course :) I beat everyone I play (locally, I suck with zsnes networked mode)
[20:41:53] <cybereal> I just never get sick of those sound effects when I downkick people in the head
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[20:42:40] <tieTYT> i'm really good at soul calibur 2 and tekken 4
[20:42:42] <fuel> cybereal: ;)
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[20:47:55] <defcon8>     public static int conv() {
[20:48:01] <defcon8> what is wrong with this method declaration?
[20:48:20] <defcon8> i tried putting oid in the () aswell but that didnt owrk
[20:48:23] <crazzybugger>  [18:46] [crazzybugger(+ei)] [2:nickserv] [Act: 1]
[20:48:24] <crazzybugger>  [18:46] [crazzybugger(+ei)] [2:nickserv] [Act: 1]
[20:48:39] <cheeser> defcon8: what does the compiler tell you?
[20:48:47] <bpalmer> defcon8: why do you think something is wrong with that declaration?
[20:48:52] <defcon8> illegal start of expression
[20:48:59] <bpalmer> (although, "conv not being a very good name" is probably something wrong)
[20:49:04] <fuel> hi ya crazzybugger!
[20:49:06] <cheeser> are you trying to declare a methon in a method?
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[20:49:14] <bpalmer> defcon8: sounds like it's a bug in the code above it
[20:49:19] <crazzybugger> hello fuel!
[20:49:22] <defcon8> nope its fine now
[20:49:25] <defcon8> i know the prob
[20:49:34] <defcon8> declaring a method inside a method
[20:49:38] <defcon8> java doesnt allow that does it?
[20:49:58] <defcon8> python taught me bad habits i think :|
[20:49:59] <bpalmer> not without an intervening inner class declaration
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[20:50:24] <cheeser> defcon8: yes, it did.
[20:50:44] <bpalmer> actually, methods inside methods can be quite nice, conceptually
[20:50:47] <bpalmer> they just aren't in java
[20:50:48] <Sou|cutter> cheeser: no, it didn't. it's just a different language
[20:51:18] <cheeser> Sou|cutter: they are bad habits when done in java.
[20:51:32] <Sou|cutter> cheeser: not objectively bad habits
[20:51:45] <cheeser> few things without context are bad or good.
[20:51:46] <bpalmer> bad habits that lead to unsuccessful compilation are habits that will prune themselves out of society
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[20:52:03] <Sou|cutter> definitely
[20:53:22] <defcon8> i need a new computer for this java stuff :(
[20:54:50] <bpalmer> in fact, I hadn't really thought about it, but nested functions versus anonymous classes are a darn interesting comparison
[20:55:22] <{aaron}> i liked nested procedures in pascal
[20:55:33] <cheeser> i read a great article from gosling/sun about closures vs. inner classes.
[20:55:35] <{aaron}> i don't see how they are worse than polluting a higher namespace with extraneous functions
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[20:55:59] <{aaron}> cheeser: link?
[20:56:21] <cheeser> i wish i had it.
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[21:07:05] <cyclone> http://flor.nl/text/softdrugs.html
[21:07:24] <cyclone> Kinda funny stuff ;)
[21:08:17] <Clackwell> possibly related to that closures/inner classes stuff: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=106&thread=129705&start=15&msRange=15
[21:08:24] <tieTYT> cheeser closures vs. inner classes... i don't see the comparison
[21:08:44] <tieTYT> yeah you know.. actually i do
[21:09:11] <Clackwell> as long as you don't abuse inner classes as an alternative package mechanism...
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[21:10:58] <defcon8> is there something like the os class in python in java?
[21:11:41] <cyclone> defcon8: System
[21:11:45] <bpalmer> Runtime, System, File ?
[21:12:07] <Clackwell> no idea. maybe there is a Frobnigator class like in CSL?
[21:12:16] <Clackwell> (clackwell's super language)
[21:12:34] <bpalmer> class Frobnigator {}  /* There IS! Wow */
[21:12:39] <cyclone> defcon8: Check this:  http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/essential/system/properties.html
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[21:13:30] <Clackwell> bpalmer: classes are sooo yesterday man. there are only "Things" in CSL.
[21:13:45] <bpalmer> do you have ur-things like int ?
[21:14:05] <Clackwell> everything is a, well, thing. so, yes or no, i think.
[21:14:09] <bpalmer> primordial yet savage data types, majestic in their isolation
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[21:15:14] <{aaron}> 'ur'?
[21:15:43] <Clackwell> :)
[21:15:52] <bpalmer> r u asking me?
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[21:21:07] <Teckla> Does Swing have a vertical bar component?  Similar to what <br> produces in HTML.
[21:21:35] <bpalmer> JSplitPane, maybe
[21:21:42] <Teckla> Oops, I mean, <hr>.
[21:21:58] <Teckla> And I meant horizontal rather than vertical.  <sigh>
[21:21:59] <Teckla> TGIF.
[21:22:17] <cybereal> Teckla, for what purpose?
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[21:22:41] <Teckla> Just to pretty up my GUI.
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[21:22:55] <cybereal> A gap between two components would produce that effect
[21:23:14] <Teckla> That's true, but I'd prefer an HTML-style horizontal rule if possible.
[21:23:20] <cybereal> Draw a line
[21:23:57] <Teckla> Okay, thanks.
[21:23:58] <slava> use a Border
[21:24:12] <slava> or a JSeparator
[21:24:17] <slava> don't just draw a line
[21:24:43] <Teckla> Ah!  Found it!
[21:24:49] <Teckla> JSeparator.  One sec after slava found it.  :)
[21:26:05] <Teckla> Thanks.
[21:26:48] <slava> i forgot is alpha=1 fully transparent or fully opaque
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[21:29:29] <Cow_woC> opauqe
[21:29:32] <Cow_woC> opaque rather
[21:29:33] <slava> thanks
[21:29:38] <cybereal> hm... hydrairc is so strange, every time they make a release, it sucks worse...
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[21:29:43] <Cow_woC> you're welome
[21:33:18] <Kallistor> hmm, does anyone know if it's possible to invoke an ejb on deployment, not programmaticly ?
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[21:33:28] <Kallistor> in an application i have a sessionbean that implements TimedObject ( a timer service )
[21:33:36] <Kallistor> i just want it to get invoked on deployment, and be done with it
[21:33:48] <_m0O> is the new JBOSS IDE compatible with eclpise 3.1.1
[21:33:49] <_m0O> ?
[21:33:49] <shaggyoaf> does anybody know how to set my CLASSPATH environment variable in windows?
[21:33:52] <Kallistor> after creation the sessionbean does some periodic cleaning up all by itself
[21:34:03] <slava> set CLASSPATH=...
[21:34:15] <shaggyoaf> slava: thanks
[21:34:35] <shaggyoaf> slava: is there any way to tell it "all the jar files in this directory?"
[21:34:39] <slava> nope
[21:35:09] <shaggyoaf> AARG! why do people use this language???!!!
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[21:35:24] <slava> because it has good marketing
[21:35:40] <slava> although i wouldn't base a criticism of java on how the class path works
[21:35:41] <Kallistor> you've chosen a good channel to bash java :)
[21:35:52] <slava> its pretty straightforward compared to *nix dynamic linking
[21:36:04] <cheeser> shaggyoaf: don't blame java if you suck at setting up environment variables.
[21:36:27] <axxo> shouldn't be using the env vars in the first place
[21:36:37] <cheeser> not global ones anyway
[21:36:42] <slava> how would it find jars then? magically?
[21:37:21] <shaggyoaf> axxo: you realize that means that many java commands are thousands of characters long, right?
[21:37:28] <Kallistor> use an ide, that allows you to "visually" add ide's to the classpath
[21:37:37] <Kallistor> jars*
[21:38:09] <axxo> so?
[21:38:11] <Kallistor> eclipse,netbeans or whatever you fancy
[21:38:40] <shaggyoaf> cheeser: I'd like to suck less at setting up my environment... can you offer any tips?
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[21:38:46] <DeadEd> and what do you do when you want to run it outside of that environmen? ... out of curiosity
[21:38:53] <DeadEd> +t
[21:39:07] <slava> mustaing will include XML literals in the language? oh my
[21:39:39] <slava> i think List/Map literals would be much more useful
[21:41:56] <{aaron}> xml literals, egads
[21:42:15] <shaggyoaf> maybe somebody can help me find an elegant solution to this.
[21:42:27] <shaggyoaf> 1. I need to run a java application that's dependant on many jar files
[21:42:32] <shaggyoaf> 2. I cannot use an IDE
[21:42:35] <{aaron}> shaggyoaf: well, either you can use the facilities of your shell to generate the classpath list or just set it manually
[21:42:38] <slava> put everything in 1 jar file
[21:43:01] <DeadEd> the.jar
[21:43:02] <DeadEd> :P
[21:43:34] <shaggyoaf> {aaron}: my shell is the windows command line, what facilities are available to generate a classpath?
[21:43:43] <slava> use unix
[21:43:46] <shaggyoaf> slava: the one jar thing could work
[21:43:58] <shaggyoaf> slava: my customers won't use unix so I can't
[21:44:11] <slava> find a better job
[21:44:12] <{aaron}> shaggyoaf: probably none in that case :/
[21:44:16] <nmx> shaggyoaf: give the customers a batch file
[21:44:17] <DeadEd> unless the code in use can't load resources from embedded jars ... assuming it might want to
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[21:44:40] <{aaron}> shaggyoaf: you can use some sophisticated cmd shell syntax but it is really ugly and hackish
[21:44:48] <shaggyoaf> nmx: that could work
[21:45:01] <nmx> shaggyoaf: it's ugly but it sounds like your situation is already ugly
[21:45:29] <{aaron}> shaggyoaf: a script is the typical solution for running java apps anyway
[21:45:53] * shaggyoaf shakes his head
[21:46:09] <shaggyoaf> say what you want about unix shared libraries, they're cleaner than this
[21:46:15] <slava> nope
[21:46:23] <cheeser> shaggyoaf: you haven't even really used java yet.
[21:46:33] <cheeser> so you just sounds really stupid bashing it.
[21:46:35] <{aaron}> shaggyoaf: there are various java binary launchers you can use too
[21:46:38] <cheeser> *sound*
[21:46:48] <slava> shaggyoaf: ever written code using dlopen()/dlsym()?
[21:47:04] <shaggyoaf> slava: heh, nope... does that get pretty bad?
[21:47:10] <slava> oh yes
[21:47:17] <{aaron}> the lib situation on unix is a mess anyway, with symlinks all over... that seems worse to me than .jars
[21:47:23] * {aaron} shrugs
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[21:47:35] <slava> it gets worse if you try doing anything dynamic
[21:48:09] <thos9> what is wrong with this?  	Mixer.Info[] mixers;  ??
[21:48:11] <shaggyoaf> cheeser: I wouldn't be here if I had a lot of experience... possibly you could help me instead of pointing out a weakness that everyone knows I have.
[21:48:33] <DeadEd> <{aaron}> shaggyoaf: a script is the typical solution for running java apps anyway
[21:48:45] <DeadEd> that's the help imho
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[21:48:56] <shaggyoaf> DeadEd: yeah, I know... I'm just hanging out in here 'cause I don't want to go do that... lol
[21:49:01] <DeadEd> :)
[21:49:18] <DeadEd> you only have to do it once ... then the pain is over :P
[21:49:26] <{aaron}> shaggyoaf: http://misc.dyingbrains.org/javalauncher/ for a binary launcher for windows
[21:49:36] <{aaron}> you will still have to do some config to set up the command line/classpath etc.
[21:50:15] <thos9> my compiler this  Syntax error on token ";", { expected after this token     about this:  Mixer.Info[] mixers;     wh??
[21:50:35] <{aaron}> thos9: you need to paste more context in the pastebin
[21:50:50] <{aaron}> we can't guess from that error (well, we could...)
[21:50:56] <thos9> it's the fist line in a new class
[21:50:59] <thos9> there is no context
[21:51:05] <cheeser> shaggyoaf: perhaps you can spend a little less time bashing stuff and more time reading.
[21:51:48] <Drone> View thos9's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8609
[21:52:22] <{aaron}> thos9: you try to initialize the field in an orphan statement
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[21:52:37] <{aaron}> you need to wrap that code in a method
[21:52:39] * bpalmer wonders why shaggyoaf couldn't use one jar that refers to other jars
[21:52:42] <bpalmer> give the users a zip file
[21:52:43] <{aaron}> it can't just float in the class body
[21:52:59] <{aaron}> bpalmer: that's another option
[21:53:16] <{aaron}> shaggyoaf: you can specify a Main-Class attribute in a single jar manifest, and dependency jars there
[21:53:23] <{aaron}> like: java -jar mymainjar.jar
[21:53:35] <{aaron}> shaggyoaf: it's explained in the jar docs
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[21:55:16] <thos9> thanks dos this look better?:
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[21:55:25] <Drone> View thos9's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8610
[21:56:16] <{aaron}> yes
[21:56:49] <{aaron}> FWIW you can just initialize the field in one line: Mixer.Info[] mixers = AudioSystem.getMixerInfo();
[21:56:59] <{aaron}> and if it is global data, you can just make it a static field
[21:57:10] <{aaron}> (i don't know maybe the audio system has to be initialized first or something)
[21:57:56] <thos9> i think you're right, I was just trying to get rid of the compiler error
[22:00:50] <DeadEd> well, I stumbled in here looking to rip someones head off about a comment I found some old logs for this channel ... but it looks interesting here (not the usual "help" channel :P)
[22:01:00] <DeadEd> *found in
[22:03:33] <{aaron}> DeadEd: about Java being slow or about C sucking? :P
[22:04:21] <cybereal> DeadEd: I'm sure if you stick around you'll run across many many more comments that might make you feel that way
[22:04:25] <DeadEd> actually about wanting to modify some of my software and claiming to be a friend of mine
[22:04:58] <cybereal> Heh, what software?
[22:05:12] <DeadEd> just an IRC bot
[22:05:31] <cybereal> How old was the log entry?
[22:05:51] <DeadEd> july 2005
[22:06:53] <DeadEd> I just wanted to know who the hell he was, claiming to be a friend of the author of some code he was trying to edit the classfiles of with wordpad! :P
[22:07:01] <cybereal> hah
[22:07:03] <cybereal> who was it?
[22:07:04] <DeadEd> me being the author
[22:07:12] <slava> why shouldn't he be allowed to change the code?
[22:07:30] <DeadEd> because it was mine and I didn't give the source
[22:07:50] <DeadEd> nick was wclientb
[22:08:00] <slava> closed source authors desrve what they get
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[22:08:31] <DeadEd> and you are just the type of person that gives "help" channels their reputation
[22:08:35] <drowe> Hello.  Quick question
[22:09:07] <drowe> Can I create a ZIP file with logical File objects?  As in, File objects I've created in memory, but have not been written to disk?
[22:09:15] <cheeser> DeadEd: feel free to disregard slava's comments...
[22:09:21] <DeadEd> FYI: it was a free piece of software anyway and is now an OS project ... *insert various profanities aimed at slava*
[22:09:44] <ernimril> drowe: you can write whatever data you want into a zip file, it does not have to contain files on didk
[22:09:52] <ernimril> s/didk/disk/
[22:09:56] <Clackwell> drowe: File objects represent (existing and non existing) files in the local filesystem.
[22:10:00] <slava> DeadEd: so why do you care about what some guy on irc did?
[22:10:17] <Clackwell> slavonka
[22:10:19] <{aaron}> yeah, Files are not virtual in Java, they refer to real on-disk files
[22:10:35] <DeadEd> because he was claiming he knew me and wanted to change my software
[22:10:46] <drowe> ernimril: How might I do that with logical files?  When I attempt to instantiate the FileInputStream with the logical object, I'm thrown a FileNotFoundException
[22:11:00] <slava> DeadEd: before sun released sources to the jvm i decompiled a lot of their code to work around bugs
[22:11:05] <{aaron}> what do you mean "logical object".  you just can't create virtual Files. they are physical
[22:11:08] <{aaron}> use something like URL instead
[22:11:33] <ernimril> drowe: code in pastebin, you only need to get a ZipFileOutputStream...
[22:11:41] <{aaron}> of course it will still have to point to a valid resource
[22:12:03] <DeadEd> slava, good for you ... doesn't make it right to modify someones code and lie about knowing the author to get information on how to modify it
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[22:12:33] * Clackwell activates his dead horse detector
[22:12:59] <cybereal> DeadEd: If I were you I'd save myself the time and take cheeser's suggestion
[22:13:16] <DeadEd> I have time :)
[22:13:31] <littlezoper> DeadEd: i don't think you have *that* much time ;)
[22:13:36] <slava> all the closed source code i've worked on has been crappy
[22:13:37] <cybereal> DeadEd: Arguing with slava is about as effective as drilling a hole in the cement with your dick
[22:13:37] <DeadEd> lol
[22:13:42] <cybereal> DeadEd: bout as satisfying too
[22:13:43] <cheeser> javabot: feed cheeser
[22:13:44] <javabot> 10 poke cheeser, 0xdeadbeef
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[22:13:59] <DeadEd> cybereal ... ouch
[22:14:10] <drowe> ernimril: http://pastebin.com/409319
[22:14:19] <DeadEd> I can see he doesn't seem _too_ opinionated :P
[22:14:58] <drowe> ernimril: I then use the returned File object, place into response within a Servlet to return ZIP file to user.
[22:15:44] <Clackwell> drowe: have you considered what happens if two requests are being processed at the same time?
[22:16:02] <ernimril> drowe: ZipOutputStream takes an OutputStream, it does not have to be a FileOutputStream
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[22:16:46] <drowe> ernimril: Nevermind...I had a '/' in one of the file names, therefore I think it thought I was specifying a path...
[22:16:49] <hashman> pr3d4t0r, got it ;)
[22:16:52] <{aaron}> if you wanted to be clever you could just write the zipoutputstream directly to the response (presuming that's what you are ultimately doing)
[22:16:53] * drowe slaps forehead
[22:17:17] <{aaron}> drowe: fwiw, you need some better IO error handling in there
[22:17:33] <{aaron}> drowe: if any error occurs you are going to have unclosed streams all over the place
[22:17:34] <ernimril> and it is probably better to use GZip since all http/1.1 clients should support that
[22:18:03] <{aaron}> ernimril: it looks like he needs an archive of files though
[22:18:05] <cybereal> I don't think gzip support is mandatory for HTTP/1.1 support, just optional
[22:18:07] <{aaron}> he'd have to tar it first
[22:18:12] <drowe> ernimril: Corporate system, so I don't have to worry too much about variety...
[22:18:25] <ernimril> cybereal: re read rfc 2616 please
[22:18:27] <drowe> ernimril: It's IE or nothing around here :(
[22:18:32] <Clackwell> he might want to send back an actual .zip file. requirements, etc.
[22:18:38] <ernimril> drowe: you could still follow the standard
[22:18:51] <{aaron}> ernimril: it doesn't matter, he'd have to tar it
[22:19:10] <Clackwell> drowe: are you going to remove the temp file ("Applications.zip") from your solution?
[22:19:16] <ernimril> {aaron}: if he is sending several files, yes...
[22:20:16] <drowe> Clackwell: that's the filename I want the user to see when returning via the servlet.  I use it to set the Content-Disposition header
[22:20:53] <Clackwell> drowe: are you going to remove the temp file ("Applications.zip") from your solution? [ ] Yes, definitely, as it is not multi-request safe. [ ] No, why should I.
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[22:21:33] <drowe> Clackwell: what do you mean it's not multi-request safe?
[22:21:42] <dmlloyd|work> ~antcore exec
[22:21:42] <javabot> http://ant.apache.org/manual/CoreTasks/exec.html
[22:21:47] <drowe> Sorry... [X] No, why should I
[22:21:54] <{aaron}> drowe: two users hit submit.  do they both write to Applications.zip?
[22:21:55] <vinse> heh
[22:22:04] <Clackwell> drowe: what {aaron} asked
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[22:22:30] <dmlloyd|work> sweet, <exec> can pass arbitrary environment variables
[22:22:38] <cybereal> ernimril: rfc = request for comment, is there actually a standard somewhere for HTTP/1.1 like IEEE or ISO?
[22:22:49] <drowe> {aaron}: As it's a logical (in memory) file which is not written to disk, and only one person would use this function (as per requirements) I don't think it poses much risk
[22:23:08] <Clackwell> cybereal: dude, aren't we using RFC stuff since a bunch of years just fine? ;)
[22:23:32] <{aaron}> drowe: 1) well, it's only "logical" if you mean it's on a ram disk or something. 2) what if that single person has two browser windows open and hits submit really fast?
[22:23:35] <cybereal> Clackwell: yeah but the point is, lots of RFC stuff isn't implemented like the rfc says :) like IRC, most servers and clients are "loosely based" on the according RFC
[22:23:45] <cybereal> Clackwell: I seem to remember some headers being required before gzip data should be sent
[22:23:50] <Clackwell> drowe: this looks like a very real file to me:  ZipOutputStream zipFile = new ZipOutputStream(new FileOutputStream(returnFile));
[22:23:52] <Clackwell> but so be it.
[22:23:55] <cybereal> Which to me would indicate that not all clients have to support it
[22:23:57] <tieTYT> my work computer is going to get 2 gigs of ram soon
[22:23:59] <tieTYT> i'm so happy
[22:24:26] <drowe> {aaron}: Then we fire them, and they find a new job...
[22:24:28] <Cow_woC> tieTYT: I recently upgraded to 2GB
[22:24:35] <tieTYT> Cow_woC: is it sweet?
[22:24:38] <Cow_woC> tieTYT: yes
[22:24:39] <Cow_woC> :)
[22:24:40] <{aaron}> drowe: ok. :) but write down that analysis
[22:24:44] <tieTYT> from what?
[22:24:46] <tieTYT> what did you used to have?
[22:24:54] <Cow_woC> tieTYT: though I must admit it didn't solve performance problems I was trying to solve, not 100% anyway
[22:25:00] <Clackwell> cybereal: standardisation via ISO, IEEE, etc. doesn't guarantee much better implementations, i would dare say.
[22:25:02] <cybereal> tieTYT: My work recently upgraded me to 3Gb :)  it was planned to be 2 but another person got a 2gb upgrade, and to do so had to drop two 512 chips, which came into my office :)
[22:25:12] <cybereal> Clackwell: true, but at least you know it's intended as a standard
[22:25:13] <Cow_woC> tieTYT: I no longer get swapping (I run on 1.2GB allocated typically) but Java IDEs are still slow ;)
[22:25:15] <tieTYT> nice
[22:25:27] <cybereal> Clackwell: inthe case of RFC's they are intended as a means to work towards a standard
[22:25:30] <tieTYT> Cow_woC: are you using idea?
[22:25:37] <Cow_woC> Netbeans in my case
[22:25:46] <tieTYT> never heard of someone actually liking that one
[22:25:51] <{aaron}> drowe: you should make sure you understand the physicality of File though... it may bite you later
[22:25:51] <cybereal> Clackwell: seems to result in a great many "defacto standards based on rfc xxx" but no real defined standards
[22:26:04] <Cow_woC> tieTYT: earlier 4.x builds were fast ... I'm using 4.2 nightly builds now so obviously they're not optimized :)
[22:26:51] * Clackwell votes standardization of RFC 2812 with ANSI, ISO, IEEE.
[22:27:13] <Clackwell> oh, forgot ECMA :)
[22:27:18] <cybereal> yeah ECMA
[22:27:27] <Clackwell> like...ECMASCRIPT <giggle>
[22:27:43] <cybereal> Heh man that's one perfect example of what you said before
[22:27:56] <cybereal> How being a standards body doesn't guarantee better adherence in implementations
[22:27:59] <Clackwell> i am afraid so. ;)
[22:28:04] <tieTYT> yeah
[22:28:05] <tieTYT> that sucks
[22:28:08] <tieTYT> i hate that crap
[22:28:22] <nmx> rohs all the way!
[22:28:38] <cybereal> But it's not really my point; mine is that you can't just blindly argue a point based on what RFC's say
[22:29:05] * Clackwell looks for the SMTP standardisation specs
[22:29:08] <cybereal> But you could be more forgivable if you zealously argued about a rule that was defined by some document accepted as "standard"
[22:29:26] <cybereal> Anyway, it's totally moot now
[22:29:56] <cybereal> I'm just curious about the gzip thing, as I'm pretty sure you have to have something like... Accepts: gz,bz2 or whatever in your request headers before a server should use that
[22:30:16] <drowe> Clackwell: Where's that physical file then?  Because I've never written anything to physically write to disk.
[22:30:23] <{aaron}> drowe: yes it is
[22:30:40] <{aaron}> it is written to <current working directory of java process>/Applications.zip
[22:30:42] <{aaron}> go look for it
[22:30:49] <{aaron}> probably in Tomcat/ or Tomcat/bin
[22:30:54] <Clackwell> cybereal: those 3 gb of ram...i seem to recall that in some cases, with windows and/or others operating systems, you actually have performance degradation due to hardware or software limitations. the suggested workaround was to remove or disable 1 gb of ram...
[22:31:18] <Clackwell> that's where you realise what a bunch of crap that pc architecture started out as, perhaps.
[22:31:25] <slava> its jsut because it 32-bit
[22:31:32] <cybereal> Clackwell: I don't think it's a problem
[22:31:39] <drowe> {aaron}: damn, there they are...
[22:31:46] <{aaron}> drowe: ...
[22:31:48] <cybereal> Clackwell: I'd rather have slightly degraded SDRAM than hit the disk cache
[22:32:21] <Clackwell> A description of the 4 GB RAM Tuning feature and the Physical Address Extension switch - http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q291988/
[22:32:24] <drowe> {aaron}: In the use of this application it shouldn't be a problem with the small (1 - 2) user base of that functionality
[22:32:48] <{aaron}> drowe: it's not a problem until it happens the first time
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[22:32:59] <{aaron}> drowe: then it's your fault :p
[22:33:10] <Clackwell> 2 gb of ram can become a very small amount quickly. just have a big enough database server which needs to do a truckload of caching.
[22:33:23] <{aaron}> easy, but not good, solution is to just put 'synchronized' on that method
[22:33:43] <{aaron}> (given that the class is only loaded in a single classloader, yada, yada ...)
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[22:36:20] <hashman> pr3d4t0r, around?
[22:36:46] <slava> Clackwell: or if you're running os x.
[22:37:09] <Clackwell> slava: ;)
[22:37:22] <slava> Clackwell: xcode uses 200mb of ram and doesn't even have auto indent
[22:37:33] <Clackwell> slava: whiner :)
[22:37:34] <cybereal> Clackwell: seems that on winxp you don't have to do anything special to support 3gb of ram by default, and those switches seem to be geared towards testing rather than regular use
[22:37:43] <cybereal> whoa
[22:37:47] <cybereal> xcode doesn't have auto-indent?
[22:37:49] <cybereal> that's sad
[22:37:53] <slava> well, its pretty simple auto indent
[22:37:57] <slava> doesn't increase indent after an 'if'
[22:39:19] <cybereal> Hm... does it increase indent after a {<cr> ?
[22:39:23] <slava> no
[22:39:28] <cybereal> that's annoying
[22:39:30] <slava> it just copies indent from the previous line
[22:39:36] <cybereal> I see
[22:39:43] <slava> yes, i don't use xcode, except for its debuggrer and hotfix feature
[22:39:47] <cybereal> I prefer that in some instances, like HTML
[22:40:05] <cybereal> I hate vim's default indentation rules for xml/html they are completely insane
[22:40:10] <Clackwell> slava: now that mention it, shredstar here complaint about jedit doing some odd autoindenting himself...:>
[22:40:58] <Clackwell> +you
[22:41:21] <Clackwell> well, not odd really. just not according to his liking.
[22:42:12] <cybereal> ernimril: I'm looking at HTTP rfc and other related documents and can't find anywhere that gzip support is required, only that its negotiation has been codified form existing practices
[22:42:51] <Clackwell> did anyone claim that gzip support is required?
[22:43:00] <cybereal> yeah
[22:43:11] <cybereal> ernimril said all http/1.1 clients have to support it
[22:43:53] <Clackwell> gzip supports was introduced past http 1.1 if i recall correctly.
[22:43:55] <Clackwell> much later.
[22:44:01] <Clackwell> support, rather
[22:44:05] <tag> bleep this bleeping bleep
[22:44:08] <tag> bleep.
[22:44:29] <cybereal> The "feature" has been around since before 1.1 actually, and in 1.1 they added some official way of determining its support for client/server
[22:44:41] <drowe> {aaron}: I decided to use the sychronized around the methods that create/read files.  I thought the File object was a logical rather than actual physical file.
[22:44:52] <cybereal> content-coding
[22:45:17] <tag> Anyone familiar with axis?
[22:45:28] <drowe> {aaron}: logical representation rather.  Not written to disk unless you explicitly made it.
[22:45:41] <ernimril> cybereal: ah, sorry, I must have been unclear, what I mean is that gzip have to be recognized by http/1.1 not that they have to handle gzip streams
[22:46:31] <cybereal> ernimril: oh ok :) *phew* just got worried that when I inevitably have to write yet another http client that I'd have to worry about that :)
[22:47:08] <{aaron}> drowe: writing to a fileoutputstream of a non-existent file implicitly creates the file
[22:47:10] <slava> http/1.1 is too complicated. an http/1.0 client is easy to write comapred to 1.1...
[22:47:38] <drowe> {aaron}: Thanks.
[22:47:39] <ernimril> slava: not many people have to write http/1.1 handlers...
[22:47:58] <cybereal> from reading through some of these slides, it looks like the majority of 1.1 features were added to handle hacks people were doing with 1.0 already
[22:48:22] <{aaron}> cybereal: and some outdated performance issues probably
[22:48:24] <slava> ernimril: that doesn't excuse unnecessary complexity, though
[22:48:25] <{aaron}> like pipelining
[22:48:33] <cybereal> yeah
[22:48:45] <slava> too many people focus on adding 80% more code to add 20% of functionality
[22:48:50] <cybereal> persistent connections is one of the new required feature to implement
[22:48:57] <{aaron}> so much uses http i doubt it could ever be refactored
[22:48:58] <ernimril> {aaron}: pipelining and persistent connections can make http/1.1 _much_ faster than http/1.0
[22:49:04] <ernimril> in some cases
[22:49:10] <{aaron}> i don't doubt it
[22:49:18] <ernimril> cybereal
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[22:49:48] <cybereal> ernimril: I imagine that one of the best scenarios for performance increase related to pipelining would be websites with tons of tiny gif images
[22:49:56] <ernimril> cybereal: you do not have to do persistent connections, you have to understand the protocoll. You can say "Connection: close" in every header if you want
[22:50:21] <cybereal> ernimril: right well I suppose that would count as "supporting" them :)
[22:50:22] <ernimril> cybereal: best gain is for really slow connections with lots of latency
[22:50:45] <ernimril> cybereal: think slow modem or satelite connection
[22:51:03] <ernimril> cybereal: satelite is fast, but have _HUGE_ latency
[22:51:05] <cybereal> Yeah, ... oh do I ever remember the days of slow modems
[22:51:19] <{aaron}> ernimril: my new house is on satellite... it sooooooooks...
[22:51:19] <cybereal> First time I was using the internet surfing 'the web' I was on a 2400 baud modem
[22:51:37] <cybereal> That was before HTTP/1.1 though
[22:51:52] <cybereal> I remember when IE added their "experimental" pipelining support
[22:51:57] <cybereal> or maybe it was netscape, I foget
[22:51:59] <cybereal> er forget
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[22:52:11] <ernimril> pipelining is still experimental in all devices I know of
[22:52:19] <ernimril> even firefox have problems with it
[22:52:27] <vinse> i remember using Prodigy on a green screen Compaq "luggable"
[22:52:40] <cybereal> I had a Toshiba luggable
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[22:52:49] <cybereal> it had an orange plasma screen
[22:52:49] <vinse> luggables were hilarious
[22:52:58] <cybereal> Yeah, but I was just happy to have my own computer
[22:53:10] <vinse> it's like "ok it's portable, but we admit you gotta be crazy to try to actually take it anywhere"
[22:53:11] <cybereal> Instead ofalways having to use grandpa's or dad's or mom's or whatever
[22:53:16] <slava> those were the days when macs were superior to x86
[22:53:30] <vinse> like it was portable only in that it had a handle on the case
[22:53:50] <vinse> it's like duct taping a suitcase handle to a desktop now
[22:53:54] <cybereal> vinse: mine had a plasma screen that folded down so it was a lot like a laptop with a big butt and no battery
[22:53:54] <vinse> and saying it's portable
[22:54:32] <vinse> cybereal: mine was a huge box and you pop the side off it was the keyboard and the screen was behind it
[22:55:23] <tag> I had this working in Axis 1.2.2 but when I try using Axis 1.3, my provider doesn't get located and Axis complains about a QName it cannot find a provider for
[22:55:56] <slava> i'll tell tag what i tell anybody working with web services, find a better job
[22:55:59] <cybereal> vinse: mine was much like this one: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/pc/h/t3100.jpg
[22:56:10] <tag> I like web services
[22:56:14] <tag> what are you talking about
[22:56:21] <slava> they sound pretty stupid to me
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[22:56:35] <slava> are they even useful or is it just an enterprise thing?
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[22:56:46] <tag> That sounds like a trick question
[22:57:00] <vinse> cybereal: dude ...
[22:57:11] <vinse> cybereal: yours was a modern masterpiece compared to mine
[22:57:14] <vinse> trying to find a pic
[22:57:49] <cybereal> vinse: mine was 386 and had a *SLIGHTLY* I stress *slightly* better screen, only in that it was about an inch bigger but... it was broken so only the left half worked
[22:58:10] <cybereal> vinse: so I used it by running win 3.0 with a dos box shrunken as small as they get.  I only used dos apps anyway.
[22:58:41] <cybereal> vinse: was it like this? http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/pc/h/cp31.jpg
[22:59:24] <vinse> found it
[22:59:27] <vinse> cybereal: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/pc/h/cppc.jpg
[22:59:32] <vinse> mine had a hard drive
[22:59:42] <vinse> it was their first model that included a hard drive i think
[22:59:53] <vinse> you had to type "bye bye" to park the drive before turning it off
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[23:00:10] <cybereal> vinse: ah yes, I used one like that at my grandfather's house as I was learning to program before I got my own machine
[23:00:21] <vinse> pretty sweet
[23:00:21] <cybereal> vinse: he was a programmer too so he had some collection of older machines
[23:00:43] <cybereal> Nothing "mainstream" popular like Commodores or TRS's or anything
[23:00:48] <cybereal> just Apples and IBM compats
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[23:01:13] <cybereal> hacked on a PCjr. for a while too, not much you can do with those in their default state
[23:01:58] <keyhack> pr3d4t0r: You around?
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[23:03:04] <cybereal> vinse: god people who complain about slow connections now don't have any idea how bad connections used to be... I am only 15 years into computers and I already feel like a dinosaur... I remember downloading 1.2mb files over a 2400 baud modem using SuperKermit because it worked faster than zmodem on a 2400 baud modem... that download would take all night.
[23:03:15] <cybereal> 1.2 mb is 2 seconds on my home connection now
[23:03:21] <slava> yeah but programmers were better back then
[23:03:30] <slava> they wrote nice tight software not enterprise outsourcing SOA
[23:03:34] <cybereal> slava: yes, and I think I am lucky for learning what I learned when I learned it
[23:03:40] <vinse> slava: shut up lol
[23:03:52] <vinse> slava: can you really be this bitter? or is it just an act?
[23:04:08] <cybereal> It always bothers me that some modern applications require so many resources to be only slightly better than they were 10 years ago...
[23:04:14] <slava> vinse: i really am this bitter, i am sick of maintaining crappy software that other people wrote
[23:04:28] <vinse> slava: maybe your'e the one who needs a new job
[23:04:33] <vinse> it's programming, not poetry
[23:04:34] <slava> at least its not java
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[23:05:21] <tag> I need to meet axis and rhino people who IRC
[23:06:18] <cybereal> Of course, in some realms expectations have grown exceedingly fast.  Especially graphics.  You used to be top notch if you could switch into mode x or whatnot... swap 320x200 pixels around to make a fancy demo... but now you don't know anything unless you can create nearly photorealistic 3D environments pfft
[23:06:44] <vinse> i've taken to walking around in those motion capture suits
[23:06:46] <cybereal> All this reminiscing is making me melencholy
[23:06:52] <slava> but then swing comes along, and renders a simple form GUI slower than doom 3 can render a photo realistic scene
[23:06:52] <vinse> in case some one wants to make 3d images of me
[23:07:08] <cybereal> slava: yeah, amazing
[23:07:39] <cybereal> We're finally coming to the point where simple 2d gui objects want to be hardware accelerated in the style of 3D... wow
[23:08:18] <slava> however, now we have web services, SOA and outsourcing APIs built-in
[23:08:24] <slava> whatever that means
[23:08:35] <cybereal> outsourcing APIs? heh
[23:08:41] <slava> javax.outsourcing.indians
[23:08:44] <cybereal> import intl.outsourcing.India;
[23:08:49] <cybereal> damnit
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[23:08:55] * cybereal slaps slava
[23:09:54] <cybereal> I think I'm going to slip out... I'm tired of sitting at work... doing nothing.
[23:10:04] <slava> that's pretty much what i do
[23:10:23] <vinse> yeah i do all my work between dinner and bed time
[23:10:32] <vinse> most of the day i sort of think about what i'm going to do
[23:10:38] <vinse> but i rarely actually do it during the day
[23:10:58] <vinse> luckily everyone else here takes five times longer than me to do anything at all
[23:10:59] <beegor> like in "Office space"
[23:11:01] <vinse> so no one notices ;p
[23:11:12] <vinse> beegor: exactly
[23:11:23] <beegor> :-)
[23:11:38] <beegor> Peter Gibbons is my idol ;-)
[23:11:52] <cybereal> vinse: yeah that's how it is with me
[23:12:04] <vinse> "peter, we notice you've been missing a lot of work"
[23:12:15] <vinse> "well bob, i wouldnt say i've been *missing* it"
[23:12:15] <cybereal> vinse: I pop out work in flurries here and there... I'm all burst-style and stuff
[23:12:22] <beegor> :-))
[23:12:49] <cybereal> annoys me when the boss wants me in the office yet I know I won't actually work because I'm tired from the night before
[23:13:10] <vinse> do a lot of emailing and commits and stuff like at 1 am
[23:13:22] <vinse> that's what i do
[23:13:31] <vinse> then they're pretty cool about when i show up
[23:13:54] * vinse starts to think about automating commits and putting them on a timer ...
[23:14:00] <cybereal> yeah I usually make it a point to respond to some emails just before I turn in, which is often after 3am so I don't get too many bad looks for coming in at noon :)
[23:14:07] <vinse> haha same!
[23:14:20] <vinse> it's easy to automate emails to send them late ;)
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[23:14:34] <slava> i phoned my boss once and it was 11:30am and i woke him up
[23:14:37] <vinse> although i usually am really up, so it's not necessary
[23:14:39] <cybereal> Fortunately, I have no official schedule or anything, my project manager is just a sort of people person meaning he has a hard time believing work is done unless he can see people doing it :)
[23:14:53] <vinse> slava: nice
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[23:15:23] <cybereal> Which is annoying because the result is him wanting damn-near TPS reports of my progress... bah, I employ outlook's journal to sortof do that for me
[23:15:28] <cybereal> ok really I'm sick of this office, ciao
[23:15:41] <aFlag> hi, is there a unbufferized version of stdout?
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[23:17:47] <Clackwell> aFlag: what do you mean?
[23:18:00] <Clackwell> aFlag: the OS buffers that stuff already
[23:18:09] <slava> you can use JNI to dsiable buffering
[23:18:53] <aFlag> i see, thanks
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[23:23:43] <follower> does java support anything like perl's format?
[23:23:56] <aFlag> what's perl's format?
[23:24:42] <cheeser> you mean the random line noise that means code?
[23:24:46] <follower> http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~abatko/computers/programming/perl/howto/format/
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[23:25:51] <ernimril> hmmm, the jsr231 (open GL bindings) have an interface GL that has a method summary javadoc that is 186 page downs for me...
[23:25:53] <Sou|cutter> ~tell follower about MessageFormat
[23:25:54] <javabot> follower, I have no idea what MessageFormat is.
[23:25:59] <Sou|cutter> ~tell follower about javadoc MessageFormat
[23:25:59] <javabot> follower, please see java.text.MessageFormat: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/text/MessageFormat.html
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[23:27:01] <follower> thank you sir
[23:30:21] <slava> ernimril: opengl has a lot of functions
[23:31:11] <ernimril> slava: lots being an understatement...
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[23:32:16] <slava> 399 functions
[23:32:41] <slava> 847 constants
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[23:37:33] <ernimril> nice... my profiler is in debian main now... :-)
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[23:40:58] <slava> opengl is one of my favorite APIs
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[23:47:36] <tieTYT> opengl is kinda stupid
[23:47:46] <tieTYT> one thing i remember is that z is negative
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[23:47:55] <tieTYT> just to confuse you
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[23:48:07] <ernimril> tieTYT: that depends on your point of view...
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[23:48:17] <ernimril> tieTYT: it is not stupid as such
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[23:49:00] <chronic1> anyone here use netbeans and expierience issues with a JPanel updating with everything vanished...until each component gets the focus again somehow
[23:49:10] <aiyaiyairc> mohadib >> you beckoned?
[23:50:01] <tieTYT> ernimril: compared to the other to axis...
[23:50:15] <shredstar> http://www.zod2008.com/
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[23:55:51] <shredstar> JPanels really bother me.
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[23:58:52] <ernimril> tieTYT: ever tried working with multiple database coordsystems, client coordsystem, viewport coordsystems and screen coordsystems at once?
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[23:59:46] <ernimril> tieTYT: data in database in lat/long, in client as RT90 (one of the swedish coordinate systems), viewport is rotated to follow a line and screen is screen....