[00:00:23] <cheeser> javabot: no, spoonfeeding <reply>Spoon-feed a newbie for a day and he will come back with more questions.  Teach him how to help himself and he will come back with answers.
[00:00:30] <cheeser> javabot: no, spoonfeeding is <reply>Spoon-feed a newbie for a day and he will come back with more questions.  Teach him how to help himself and he will come back with answers.
[00:00:31] <javabot> Okay, cheeser.
[00:00:34] <cheeser> there.
[00:00:43] <Prescriptor> :-)
[00:00:51] <Prescriptor> it's cool. i don't mind
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[00:01:12] <Prescriptor> i feel like a newbie 3 times a week for 1 hour long each in front of my prof
[00:01:15] <Prescriptor> so it's cool
[00:01:16] <cheeser> well, i don't want to give the impression that some questions are stupid
[00:01:28] <cheeser> just want to emphasize the teach a man to fish bit
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[00:01:38] <ned_flanders> hi :)
[00:02:09] <ned_flanders> java decompilers can reconstruct the original source code from a class binary file?
[00:02:11] <osynic> son of a diddly
[00:02:32] <ned_flanders> hi didly ho neighborino
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[00:02:49] <putzel> well i came to this channel with my housework too a few years ago :)
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[00:05:47] <cybereal> cheeser: teach a man to fish?  how bout this one: Start a fire for a man: Keep a man warm for a night, Start a man on fire: Keep the man warm for the rest of his life. :)
[00:07:25] <cheeser> old, but funny.
[00:07:25] <cheeser> 8^)=
[00:07:41] <cybereal> yeah, but I like the old ones :)
[00:07:57] <cybereal> especially since most people I know haven't heard them anyway
[00:08:15] <cheeser> indeed.
[00:08:21] <cheeser> 'tis a good one and a favorite.
[00:08:30] <ned_flanders> can java decompilers re-construct the actual original src code?
[00:08:44] <ernimril> ned_flanders: try it...
[00:08:46] <ned_flanders> with the original variable names, etc?
[00:08:54] <ned_flanders> kk
[00:09:04] <ernimril> ned_flanders: more or less...
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[00:10:12] <ned_flanders> neat, in c++ all you can decompile an executable into is some garbage in assembly :-/
[00:11:02] <ernimril> ned_flanders: not true, there are C/C++ decompilers, but they are more tightly tied to a given compiler and compile time flags...
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[00:11:37] <cybereal> ned_flanders: there are reasons for both java decompiling interestingly and C++ usually not so much
[00:11:38] <ned_flanders> eh, yeah but i've heard they're not generally accurate
[00:12:15] <cybereal> main difference is that java isn't native code, and bytecode is designed to support things like reflection
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[00:14:49] <Sou|cutter> ned_flanders: not with the original variable names AFAIK
[00:14:54] <putzel> *java++ :)
[00:15:31] <cheeser> Sou|cutter: actually, i think javac stores those in there now.
[00:16:03] <Sou|cutter> cheeser: really?
[00:16:13] <Sou|cutter> muy interesante
[00:16:16] <vman_____> char + char - char = int?
[00:16:17] <vman_____> hows that work out
[00:16:19] <vman_____> ?
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[00:16:39] <cheeser> Sou|cutter: yeah.  apparently that's changed.  someone showed me that a while back.
[00:16:46] <ernimril> Sou|cutter: all instance variables have their names in the class files, method variables may or may not be there
[00:16:54] <vman_____> char endPoint = nextSequenceNum + windowSize - '\u0001';   <-- every variable used in that statement is a char
[00:17:01] <vman_____> why am i getting a precision error?
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[00:17:23] <vman_____> found int required char?
[00:17:27] <Sou|cutter> cheeser: ah, that sorta makes sense
[00:17:33] <cybereal> vman_____: you have a really annoying nickname
[00:17:36] <ricflazz> vman_____: why are you unsing chars for arithmetic?
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[00:18:25] <cheeser> vman_____: + promotes the chars to int
[00:18:33] <vman_____> just cause its unsigned 16bit
[00:18:57] <vman_____> cause it rollsover back to 0
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[00:20:07] <ajs> I thought all types were signed in Java.
[00:20:14] <vman_____> except for char
[00:20:21] * cheeser nods sagely.
[00:20:51] <cHaoTiCa> chars are an exception, mostly cause they're not meant to be treated as numbers :)
[00:21:06] <ricflazz> that is what i thought
[00:21:25] <vman_____> so whats the deal then cheeser, should i just typecast it?
[00:21:36] <cheeser> yeah.
[00:21:39] <ldejan> Honk^away, you're rigth, i did not set up my env rigth! now its all good
[00:22:00] <ajs> You could do heinous things with int to get around it I guess, something like mychar = abs(myint) & 0xffff; ?
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[00:22:57] <putzel> jap i had to do this once... it's ugly :\
[00:23:01] <cHaoTiCa> you don't have to get so sneaky :)  chars can be numbers if they have to
[00:24:03] <cHaoTiCa> it's just usually not in your best interest to use them as such
[00:24:05] <ajs> This implicit int thing caught me out the other day when I was trying to get the least significant 32bits into a 4 byte array and back again.
[00:24:24] <ricflazz> why does % not work so good for negative numbers?
[00:24:30] <ajs> If you don't explicitly do (byte & 0xff) when converting back, java does bizarre things.
[00:24:36] <ricflazz> is there a historical reason, C is the same way
[00:25:03] <cHaoTiCa> ric......divide 1000 by -30.  what's the remainder?  :)
[00:25:14] <ned_flanders> you can't include a function inside a parameter of another function? like... JOptionPane.showMessageDialog(null, func(num1, num2)); ?
[00:25:29] <ajs> ricflazz, probably because a negative number is 2s complement?
[00:26:01] <cHaoTiCa> but a modulus is a positive number
[00:26:33] <ajs> Yes, but it's legal in maths to do (neg mod X).
[00:27:14] <Bevin> 'night
[00:27:16] <ned_flanders>  method showMessageDialog (<nulltype>,int)
[00:27:16] <ned_flanders>  class javax.swing.JOptionPane
[00:27:16] <ned_flanders>        JOptionPane.showMessageDialog(null, func(num1, num2));
[00:27:37] * cheeser twitches.
[00:27:42] <cheeser> javabot: topicsmite ned_flanders
[00:27:42] <javabot> And the wrath of /TOPIC descended with terrible fury upon ned_flanders.  And all the people marvelled, saying, Behold, we too should read the /TOPIC, lest we be stricken.  And all the people read the /TOPIC, and went away edified.
[00:27:47] <cHaoTiCa> heh
[00:28:37] <ned_flanders> oops.. i thought it was 3 lines :-S
[00:29:29] <ricflazz> so its historical from C?
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[00:30:00] <cheeser> for the record, 1000 % -30 == 10
[00:30:01] <cHaoTiCa> it's historical from asm, afaik.  :)
[00:30:03] <ricflazz> or is it standard convention in machine arch to have % do that
[00:30:09] <Adjahari> anyone here ever had a problem with java.nio where selectNow on the Selector stops returning keys that have registered as interested in OP_READ?
[00:30:29] <Bevin> cheeser: btw, did you see my post about RIFE misconceptions?
[00:30:44] <ajs> ricflazz, http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/52343.html
[00:30:46] <ernimril> Adjahari: other side of the socket closed?
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[00:31:14] <ned_flanders> oh dear... is it supposed to be JOptionPane.showMessageDialog(null,"string") ?
[00:31:21] <ned_flanders> as the parameters?
[00:31:33] <cheeser> Bevin: i did.  and how the SD Times got it right?
[00:31:41] <Adjahari> ernimril: that's what i thought was happening, but i called the other end of the socket and asked if they were having problems.  they said no.  ;)
[00:31:55] <Adjahari> ernimril: it looks like this bug.  http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4615008
[00:31:57] <Bevin> cheeser: they did, they took the trouble of reading ;-)
[00:32:00] <cheeser> heh
[00:32:20] <Bevin> anyway, going to bed
[00:32:21] <Bevin> 'night
[00:32:26] <cheeser> later, Bevin
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[00:34:46] <ijoyce> how do I call the no-arg constructor for another constructer? super();?
[00:34:57] <slava> this();
[00:35:08] <ijoyce> that's right...duh
[00:35:28] <ijoyce> slava, thanks
[00:35:37] <VeRiTTO> Anybody speak english?
[00:35:41] <VeRiTTO> Anybody speak spanish?
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[00:35:57] <ricflazz> VeRiTTO: YO!
[00:35:59] <ijoyce> si, I speak english
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[00:37:11] <VeRiTTO> ricflazz super
[00:37:22] * Adjahari stabs java.nio
[00:37:34] <ricflazz> VeRiTTO: so what's the question?
[00:38:11] <ajs> Uh, does anybody know why signing something with a PrivateKey loaded from a KS wth .getKey (alias, password); returns a different sig to getting the PrivateKey from a KeyStore.PrivateKeyEntry via KeyStore.PasswordProtection()?
[00:38:23] <VeRiTTO> Donde puedo encontrar información acerca de los eventos utilizando el paquete awt
[00:38:24] <cHaoTiCa> the question was "anybody speak english or spanish?"  c'mon, keep up :)
[00:38:46] <slava> anybody good at OS X?
[00:38:49] <VeRiTTO> Me confundí era Anybody speak spanish!
[00:38:53] <Adjahari> slava: mebbe.
[00:39:10] <slava> i have a program that works if i do ./foo but dies with a segfault if i do `pwd`/foo
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[00:39:47] <ricflazz> awt events in spanish?
[00:39:51] <cHaoTiCa> VeRiTTO....are you asking how to get info from/via awt events?
[00:39:59] <ricflazz> docs in spanish
[00:40:07] <ricflazz> i think its only in .en, and .jp
[00:40:15] <Adjahari> slava: does the app inspect the launch path of the application?
[00:40:25] <cHaoTiCa> ahhh
[00:40:31] <cHaoTiCa> about, then :)
[00:40:32] <slava> Adjahari: no, it dosn't
[00:41:00] <Adjahari> does the pwd resolve to a soft link or an alias?  that could make something funny happen...
[00:41:02] <Adjahari> not sure though
[00:41:12] <VeRiTTO> cHaoTiCa Yeah! I'm findin that but examples
[00:41:20] <VeRiTTO> finding
[00:41:25] * cHaoTiCa can read tiny bits of spanish, but not enough to understand everything :)
[00:41:57] <VeRiTTO> Ok :0)!
[00:42:06] <slava> Adjahari: actually, it looks like a coincidental memory corruption due to the length of the argv changing
[00:42:12] <slava> length of argv[0] rather
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[00:43:58] <ricflazz> is object serialization 'deep'?
[00:44:13] <cheeser> i don't think so.
[00:44:21] <cheeser> though with XStream i think it is.
[00:44:22] <cheeser> fwiw
[00:44:31] <slava> yes it is deep
[00:44:42] <ricflazz> slava: what is deep?
[00:44:43] <slava> it serializes the transitive closure
[00:44:52] <slava> ricflazz: built-in serialization
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[00:45:57] <ricflazz> what if a collection contains objects that are not serializable?
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[00:46:16] <cheeser> probably will throw an error
[00:46:49] <slava> yes
[00:47:47] <ricflazz> thanks
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[00:54:12] <Terr1> Im running a thread and using an iterator to go through an hashmap, however I get the following exception: java.util.ConcurrentModificationException any ideas? there is only 1 thread operating on that iterator.
[00:54:35] <cheeser> Terr1: are you changing things inside your loop?
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[00:54:49] <ernimril> Terr1: stop adding/removing elements
[00:55:18] <cHaoTiCa> VeRiTTO.....http://www.aulambra.com/java/java_awt-code.asp
[00:56:05] <Terr1> 2sek will paste
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[00:56:26] <cHaoTiCa> le ayuda?
[00:56:27] <VeRiTTO> Thanks cHaoTiCa
[00:56:33] <cHaoTiCa> np :)
[00:56:50] <snow_ru> isito ok to use XMLReader ?
[00:57:02] <Drone> View Terr1's post at:  http://www.eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8304
[00:57:03] <VeRiTTO> Espero que si!
[00:57:05] <snow_ru> i'm hanging by XML ...
[00:57:05] <cheeser> sure
[00:57:12] <cHaoTiCa> snow_ru....no one will arrest you for it :)
[00:57:14] <snow_ru> cheeser, to whom ?
[00:57:17] <Terr1> I posted what im doing in the loop..
[00:57:20] <cheeser> snow_ru: you
[00:57:39] <snow_ru> can it  be the solution for xml parser ?
[00:57:51] <snow_ru> I saw so many class for XML parser
[00:58:02] <snow_ru> I have the problem of choosing...
[00:58:09] <ernimril> Terr1: start using prepared statements
[00:58:27] <Terr1> whats the diffrence? not sure what it is?
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[00:58:53] <R3d> hi
[00:58:58] <ernimril> Terr1: safe from sql injection, it is way faster when inserting many rows....
[00:59:24] <cHaoTiCa> Terr1....you prepare a statement outside the loop, then you can use it a bunch of times without making the server reparse it
[00:59:30] <cHaoTiCa> it's faster
[00:59:38] <Terr1> but thats not whats causing the error is it?
[00:59:48] <ernimril> Terr1: no
[01:00:03] <ernimril> Terr1: your paste did not show where the error occurs
[01:00:16] <R3d> I'm trying to implement the sieve of Atkins but have some difficulties with it..how do I count the pairs of x and y (only positive) that solve this: 4x^2 + y^2 = n where n is an integer..
[01:00:28] <Terr1> ernimril, line 12
[01:01:03] <cHaoTiCa> x and y are ints too?
[01:01:08] <R3d> yes
[01:01:16] <cHaoTiCa> > R3d
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[01:01:49] <R3d> chaotica: yes
[01:01:55] <Drone> View Terr1's post at:  http://www.eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8305
[01:02:06] <Terr1> I pasted the whole error..
[01:02:12] <slava> R3d: first, note that 4x^2 = (2x)^2
[01:02:31] <slava> R3d: now, note that (2x)^2 + y^2 = n if and only if N(2x+iy)=n
[01:02:40] <slava> R3d: where N is the norm on Z[i]
[01:02:43] <ernimril> Terr1: you do not show what else you do with currency
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[01:03:18] <slava> R3d: so you're looking for all complex numbers with a given norm (on a circle) that also have integer co-ordinates (on a grid)
[01:03:46] <cHaoTiCa> one not-so-mathy way is to count from (int) -sqrt(n) to (int) sqrt(n)....call that y
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[01:04:04] <cHaoTiCa> at each step, find x
[01:04:08] <slava> cHaoTiCa: presumably that's too inefficient in this case
[01:04:40] <R3d> brute force isn't good in this case..
[01:04:41] <R3d> :)
[01:04:45] <R3d> I tried it :)
[01:04:49] <cHaoTiCa> :)
[01:04:55] <Terr1> ernimril, thats the problem, as far as I know only 1 thread is operating on the currency? so how can it make that error
[01:04:59] <slava> R3d: there is a result about rational points on elliptic curves that applies in this case, i just can't remember what it is
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[01:05:55] <R3d> there are two others : 3x^2 + y^2 = n and 3x^2 - y^2 = n
[01:06:02] <ernimril> Terr1: you do not need to have several threads to get a CCME
[01:06:32] <ernimril> Terr1: you are having an iterator and you are modifiying the collection of the iterator at the same time...
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[01:06:55] <Terr1> ernimril, so you have to close an iterator when your done or what?
[01:07:11] <ernimril> Terr1: no
[01:07:21] <ernimril> damn, is this bozo day or what?
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[01:08:02] <Terr1> heh...
[01:08:20] <amphiboid> R3d: I implemented the Sieve of Eratosthenes but not the Atkin optimization :-/     But this is so common to find primes that there must be many tutorials out there explaining how to efficently do it.
[01:08:22] <stodge> Got a weird situation - when I run a Java application and it exits, the Java VM process never quits (Linux Kubuntu)
[01:08:44] <cHaoTiCa> stodge....all java apps, or just yours? :)
[01:08:56] <ernimril> stodge: you do not end all threads...
[01:09:27] <stodge> The thing is, this is code that used to work perfectly under Ubuntu with GNOME, but under Kubuntu with KDE, doesn't
[01:09:29] <amphiboid> stodge: dump the threads by sending a kill -3 to the process that is still alive, you'll see which threads are still running
[01:09:54] <amphiboid> stodge: according you redirect your output somewhere ;)
[01:10:15] <amphiboid> stodge: yup, kill -3 is one wonderfull trick :)
[01:10:31] <R3d> amphiboid: I found erato. too slow..and can't try the implementation ot atkin(found one without the code :/ ) I have the "instruction" on how the algorithm should work and that's everything.. :/
[01:10:34] <stodge> Not sure what I'm looking at
[01:12:08] <stodge> http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/1vy85A83.html
[01:12:39] <stodge> There's the output
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[01:19:04] <stodge> Any suggestions or ideas as to what's happening?
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[01:21:49] <cHaoTiCa> stodge.....are you exit()ing when the main window closes?
[01:22:14] <carlinhos> hi, some triks to improve performance in lg3d?
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[01:25:17] <stodge> I'm running a demo from the Java Monkey Engine
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[01:25:47] <stodge> As well as a simple JME app I wrote. I'm still learning
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[01:37:25] <awayFromHome> hi, i would like to draw a 2d polygon using Graphics class, but my vertexes are type double
[01:37:28] <awayFromHome> not int
[01:37:33] <awayFromHome> is there anything i can do
[01:37:52] <cHaoTiCa> cast to int? :)
[01:38:07] <yoperman> does anyone here use jsharp
[01:38:11] <awayFromHome> i would lose precision then
[01:38:28] <awayFromHome> java cant draw vertexes of type double? :/
[01:38:33] <cHaoTiCa> you want precision, or you wanna draw? :)
[01:38:45] <awayFromHome> both
[01:38:46] <cHaoTiCa> probably can
[01:38:47] <awayFromHome> if possible
[01:39:05] <cHaoTiCa> but you asked if there was anything you can do.  :)
[01:39:17] <awayFromHome> yes, does anyone know if it is possible to do this
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[01:39:33] <awayFromHome> besides casting to in
[01:39:37] <awayFromHome> t
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[01:40:25] <christo> evening all
[01:40:30] <awayFromHome> hello
[01:40:58] <Prescriptor> in java, is it possible to turn a string "mymethod" to an actuall method name? right now, i have to say x = "mymethod"; if (x.equals("mymethod")) { mymethod(); } ....... in Perl, there's a package called _UNIVERSAL_ that takes string and turns it into function name,
[01:41:05] <Prescriptor> is there such a thing in Java?
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[01:41:44] <cHaoTiCa> Prescriptor....java has reflection...you could look up the method if you wanted to
[01:41:50] <cHaoTiCa> but it can be slow
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[01:43:53] <cHaoTiCa> poke around in java.lang.reflect....esp the Method class
[01:44:30] <cHaoTiCa> and Class.getDeclaredMethod(...)
[01:44:51] <cHaoTiCa> that's in java.lang, though
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[01:45:13] <nTfirewall2> what is midp and what is the difference b/w j2me n midp
[01:45:36] <R3d> awayFromHome: why not cast Graphics to Graphics2d
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[01:46:53] <kinabalu> is there any special email command that double brackets gives? [[project code]]
[01:47:06] <awayFromHome> sorry, network problems. who asked why i dont cast to Graphics2d?
[01:47:30] <cHaoTiCa> r3d did
[01:47:31] <awayFromHome> why would i want to? i looked through the class on the api, and didnt see any useful methods in there that graphics didnt give me
[01:47:46] <awayFromHome> im assuming its .drawPolygon(Polygon())
[01:48:06] <awayFromHome> but Polygon is created with int arrays, which does not work for my needs
[01:49:01] <cHaoTiCa> do you really need 15-digit precision to draw a polygon?  :)
[01:49:05] <cHaoTiCa> or 14
[01:49:08] <cHaoTiCa> i forget
[01:49:20] <cHaoTiCa> anyway, it's a bit much
[01:49:28] <awayFromHome> i "need" it because its part of my assignment
[01:49:32] <awayFromHome> not by choice
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[01:50:23] <cHaoTiCa> you don't lose the precision forever, you know.  :)
[01:51:18] <cHaoTiCa> and a millionth of a dat won't make a difference in how your polygon looks
[01:51:20] <cHaoTiCa> dot too
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[01:52:14] <awayFromHome> more than a millionth, 3.9.. would be only 3
[01:52:20] <graffix> what is best way to break up a comman seperated list
[01:52:22] <graffix> in java
[01:52:34] <graffix>  23:55:20, 0, CPU04, 4.5, 4.5, 3.3, 87.7
[01:52:36] <graffix> for example
[01:52:39] <Honk^away> string.split
[01:52:41] <cHaoTiCa> awayFromHome........multiply, then cast
[01:52:47] <graffix> k
[01:52:58] <graffix> thanks Honk^away
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[01:55:12] <awayFromHome> multiply by what number
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[01:55:23] <cHaoTiCa> 3.9 might be 3.....but if your drawing area is 400x400, multiplying by 100 before you scale gives you 389 or 390
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[01:55:48] <cHaoTiCa> depends on how big your surface is and how big your numbers will get
[01:56:45] <cHaoTiCa> err
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[01:56:59] <cHaoTiCa> ...
[01:56:59] <cHaoTiCa> heh
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[02:04:21] <cHaoTiCa> re :)
[02:08:57] <awayFromHome> whats re means
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[02:09:43] <kinabalu> awayFromHome: regarding
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[02:11:15] <Honk^away> i'm back
[02:11:20] <Honk^away> usually :)
[02:11:34] <Honk^away> the appropriate answer would be "wb" :)
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[02:13:24] <awayFromHome> well WB then!
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[02:20:31] <EasterSunshine> can someone give me an estimate of how much bandwidth it would take to run a swing application over ssh, just a tpyical application, nothing too simple, nothing ridiculously complex
[02:21:08] <cybereal> EasterSunshine: I"ve experienced just that via ssh/X11 tunneling on a 256k connection and it was ... meh, barely tolerable
[02:21:18] <jwormy> EasterSunshine, define complex..
[02:21:21] <cybereal> on a 512k connection it might be more usable, and it always depends on the app
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[02:33:24] <joaopaulo> im looking for some tutorial that explains how to work with more than one window using Swing, anybody knows ?
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[02:33:55] <Honk^away> just open a new jframe ;)
[02:34:53] <joaopaulo> Honk^away, thanks, what method i can use to kill the exist jframe ?
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[02:36:34] <Honk^away> dispose
[02:36:45] <Honk^away> or just setvisible, if you might want to use it again
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[02:41:25] <Torquemada> is it possible to use reflection on methods with variable args?
[02:41:49] <delvinj> Torquemada: calling a method?
[02:42:13] <Torquemada> like a method called add(Integer... ints)
[02:42:47] <Honk^away> just call it the old way..
[02:42:54] <Torquemada> and then by calling the method by giving the class name, the method name
[02:43:10] <delvinj> Torquemada: usually an Object[]
[02:43:16] <delvinj> or Class[]
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[02:48:19] <ramza3> does java open .gz files
[02:48:56] <Honk^away> why would java want to? ;)
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[02:50:34] <ramza3> I wouldn't mind if the java api and streams through an arg with 'filename
[02:50:37] <slava> ramza3: java.util.GZipINputStream
[02:50:47] <ramza3> slava: didnt know if it would work or not
[02:50:51] <ramza3> let me try
[02:50:57] <slava> umm yes it works
[02:54:34] <cordor> else there is one in ant, gz bzip2
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[02:57:38] <slava> ramza3: i'm working on ffi callbacks
[02:57:41] <slava> ramza3: and i got a mac ;)
[02:58:28] <ramza3> slava: cool, did you get one of those g4s?
[02:58:41] <slava> ramza3: i got a mac mini from my employer
[02:58:59] <ramza3> I got a home server, may host that lisp server aranedia
[02:59:00] <Tzuriel> slava: how do you like it?
[02:59:06] <ramza3> spelled right...araneida
[02:59:14] <slava> os x is nice to use but slow
[02:59:25] <slava> ramza3: i'll be working on carbon bindings too
[02:59:34] <ramza3> objective-C stuff
[02:59:39] <Tzuriel> no, not os x, i mean the mini
[02:59:41] <slava> no, that's cocoa
[02:59:48] <slava> Tzuriel: the mini is a 1.42ghz g4
[02:59:48] <Tzuriel> os x rox!
[02:59:49] <slava> pretty slow
[03:00:04] <Tzuriel> yeah, the g4 is slow
[03:00:23] <ramza3> slava: I was going to work on some opengl factor code, just for messing around
[03:00:29] <ramza3> probably this week
[03:01:00] <slava> cool
[03:01:05] <Tzuriel> cool thing about opengl is it runs nice on all platforms
[03:02:02] <ramza3> we will see if the new java implements java2d in opengl
[03:02:05] <slava> ramza3: are you still interested in working on win32 bindings?
[03:02:13] <ramza3> actually it is is in opengl now
[03:02:36] <ramza3> slava: possibly, I may start out something, but time is kind of limited
[03:02:41] <Tzuriel> java2d? try jogl, i think you'll like it
[03:03:07] <slava> ramza3: how do you like that lisp httpd?
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[03:03:46] <ramza3> slava: it is light and speedy, I thought about messing with python, screw it, no good libraries exist
[03:04:19] <ramza3> and the server code is simple
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[03:05:33] <Clackwell> jogl for java2d? :)
[03:05:54] <Tzuriel> java open gl bindings, works just as well for 2d :)
[03:06:13] <Tzuriel> but, it's got more powwwerrr captain kirk!
[03:06:22] <Clackwell> oh? cool, not quite what i expected
[03:08:11] <slava> any 3d api can be used for 2d, just use z=0
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[03:09:28] <Tzuriel> but i think you'd want one that's got more community support and where the vendors don't question it's usefulness :)
[03:10:18] <Clackwell> yeah, directx power!
[03:10:31] <puff> ramza3: Nebula Device?
[03:10:36] * Tzuriel coughs, runs to put visine drops in
[03:10:57] <puff> ramza3: Sorry, confused the httpd topic with the 3D topic.
[03:11:02] <slava> opengl has some flaws, like you cannot nest display lists
[03:11:08] <ramza3> puff: http://www.cliki.net/araneida
[03:11:10] <slava> but overall it is very nice
[03:11:16] <slava> ramza3: you lisp zealot
[03:11:36] <ramza3> slava: I love it!!  dont worry, I am side-learning factor.
[03:11:54] <slava> ramza3: i love it too :) i was just joking
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[03:12:47] <ramza3> slava: when are you doing callbacks
[03:12:51] <slava> now
[03:13:25] <ramza3> hmm
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[03:23:30] <graffix> does java have some sort of glob method?
[03:24:48] <ramza3> you can use jython
[03:25:09] <graffix> no built in methods?
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[03:26:04] <procyon> hello how can i take a difference of time around say a long loop ? using the Date class ?
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[03:26:46] <ramza3> graffix, play with File...  String[] 	list(FilenameFilter filter) .. there is probably something in that FilenameFilter
[03:26:59] <graffix> kewl
[03:27:00] <graffix> thanks
[03:29:23] <Honk^away> procyon: system.nanotime :)
[03:29:25] <Honk^away> if it's 1.5
[03:30:27] <palomer> system.nanoTime rocks
[03:30:47] <palomer> it really does
[03:32:00] <mohadib> graffix: doesnt glob just list files?
[03:32:03] <mohadib> i forget
[03:32:09] <graffix> yeah
[03:32:14] <graffix> I used one in perl
[03:32:17] <mohadib> graffix: look at the File api
[03:32:20] <graffix> was wondering if you can do same in java
[03:32:26] <graffix> yeap...there now
[03:32:34] <graffix> went to google and type java glob
[03:32:37] <graffix> didn't find what I wanted
[03:32:58] <mohadib> f.list()
[03:33:23] <mohadib> ~javadoc File.list()
[03:33:24] <javabot> mohadib, please see java.io.File.list(): http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/io/File.html#list()
[03:33:46] <graffix> k
[03:33:53] <delvinj> javabot: how do i love?
[03:33:54] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'i love you' might be appropriate:
[03:33:56] <javabot> Go away, delvinj.. you freak.
[03:34:06] <mohadib> heh
[03:34:11] * delvinj cries on the inside
[03:34:23] * mohadib comforts delvinj with some man love
[03:34:47] <graffix> man love?
[03:34:49] <mohadib> graffix: listFiles() looks better
[03:34:57] <delvinj> lol
[03:35:29] <mohadib> i just got back from making $85 in 15 minutes
[03:35:39] * mohadib is a consultants consultant :)
[03:36:07] <delvinj> damn skippy
[03:36:18] <Honk^away> palomer: heh, nanoTime has a resolution of 1µs for me though :P
[03:36:35] <mohadib> heh , I love consultants who dont know Linux yet stll sale it , when anything breaks they have to call me :)
[03:36:37] <ramza3> mohadib, pimping aint easy, but somebody ....
[03:36:39] <mohadib> lol
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[03:36:45] <delvinj> mohadib: that a euphemism for 'crack dealer' ?
[03:36:48] <delvinj> =)
[03:36:52] <mohadib> ;)
[03:37:03] * mohadib is not telling :p
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[03:40:11] <joaopaulo> what to say about a java programa that uses 50% of my ram memory?
[03:40:14] <meatmanek> How bad of form is it to use global variables?
[03:40:25] <delvinj> joaopaulo: far out!
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[03:40:31] <mohadib> meatmanek: global? ;)
[03:40:39] <meatmanek> I still think in terms of C, sorry
[03:40:42] <mohadib> meatmanek: what is a global to you?
[03:40:58] <meatmanek> outside of all methods in a purely procedural class.
[03:40:58] <mohadib> a public field?
[03:41:11] <mohadib> is it public?
[03:41:11] <glvgfz> Hi all, Anyone know how to prevent an library from printing to standard output/input?
[03:41:28] <meatmanek> mohadib, no, it'd be private
[03:41:42] <meatmanek> and I'm guessing not static
[03:42:07] <mohadib> well , if you can avoid using a field to pass a refrence to other methods in the class i would , but its not a bad thing imho
[03:42:22] <meatmanek> it's an int
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[03:42:32] <meatmanek> I suppose I could make it an Integer
[03:42:43] <mohadib> and you have many methods that use it but you dont want to pass it around?
[03:42:51] <meatmanek> yeah.
[03:42:58] <meatmanek> one other question that would actually solve this
[03:43:04] <mohadib> big deal :)   but i avoid it when possible
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[03:43:21] <meatmanek> String.substring(index1, index2) creates a new string, correct?
[03:43:26] <mohadib> yes
[03:43:47] <meatmanek> I'm making a recursive parser
[03:44:06] <mohadib> string is immutable , so any method that *mutates* a string infact returns a new one and the original is never modified
[03:44:13] <meatmanek> indeed.
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[03:46:39] <meatmanek> I can't imagine when I would be alternating strings when using my parser, so I think using a private field wouldn't be bad.
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[03:48:10] <mohadib> meatmanek: public fields are not really used a lot , they break encapsulation
[03:48:22] <mohadib> that's what getter and setters are for
[03:48:51] <mohadib> same with methods
[03:49:03] <meatmanek> it's a private field, used in the same sense that a C programmer would use a global static variable...
[03:49:04] <mohadib> if the world does not need to know.. the hide it
[03:49:47] <meatmanek> It just seems like it should be considered bad form to do what I'm doing...
[03:49:53] <mohadib> how so
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[03:50:20] <mohadib> we are discusing why it should be private ...right?
[03:50:28] <meatmanek> no, I know it's private
[03:50:32] <mohadib> heh
[03:50:43] <mohadib> but do you also know why?
[03:50:47] <meatmanek> but I'm thinking it would be better programming form to pass the string and index around every time
[03:51:04] <meatmanek> yes, because there's no reason to allow others to see the string or index.
[03:51:24] <mohadib> or even worse modify it without your class knowing about it
[03:51:35] <mohadib> object
[03:51:36] <meatmanek> yeah.
[03:52:38] <slava> http://www.anontodo.com/
[03:53:07] <mohadib> he
[03:53:20] <mohadib> do you use that slava ?
[03:54:48] <mohadib> slavas to so: 1. make teh hoes stop counting my spokes in my driveway 2. 3:00 apt to slap hoes  3. go to swap meet
[03:54:54] <mohadib> do
[03:55:10] <meatmanek> can you use the ++ operator on an Integer?
[03:55:15] <mohadib> no
[03:55:22] <slava> mohadib: lol damn straight
[03:55:23] <meatmanek> k, didn't think so.
[03:55:48] <mohadib> 4. goto 1
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[04:00:39] <mohadib> ~examples
[04:00:39] <javabot> mohadib, examples is http://javaalmanac.com/egs/
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[04:04:31] <DaDave> hi all
[04:05:37] <DaDave> i have a problem with JDOM: when i search for elemen with XPath everything is fine, but if i clone an element and then search for an element with XPath in it it does not work. Does XPath denies to work on cloned elements in JDOM?
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[04:07:29] <delvinj> DaDave: it would depend on the XPath
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[04:07:44] <delvinj> DaDave: first,  is the cloned node even in the document?
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[04:08:11] <delvinj> DaDave: if it is, then you probably need a different XPath xpression
[04:08:15] <DaDave> yeah the node is in the document. and the xpath expression is a //myTag liek serach
[04:08:41] <DaDave> so basicly it should find all myTag-Nodes in the whole fuckin document, right?
[04:08:50] <delvinj> right
[04:09:01] <delvinj> i dont know how jdom implements cloning
[04:09:35] <DaDave> i am getting crazy with this shit. it already cost me 5 houhrs and i don't even have a solution.
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[04:09:51] <DaDave> is there a nother good framework for XML handling for java?
[04:10:00] <delvinj> DaDave: dom4j
[04:10:10] <slava> DaDave: i spent 5 hours today solving a segfault in a C program :(
[04:10:20] <DaDave> hehe :-)
[04:10:22] * delvinj spent 5 hours in one fucking meeting
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[04:10:30] <slava> delvinj wins
[04:10:36] <delvinj> and there wasnt even bagels, the commies
[04:11:10] <DaDave> delvinj: i tried with dom4j. at least the clone/xpath problem is solved. but then there are other problems i have encountered.
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[04:11:31] <DaDave> for exmaple: how to delete an attribute with dom4j?
[04:11:42] <delvinj> DaDave: removeAttribute?
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[04:11:49] <delvinj> thats DOM anyway
[04:12:03] <DaDave> delvinj: there is no removeAttribute  :-(
[04:12:08] <delvinj> i'm sure the correct method will reveal itself with a thourough javgadoc search
[04:12:23] <DaDave> delvinj: the javadoc of dom4j is a mess.
[04:12:33] <delvinj> DaDave: removeChild?  i dont know it is there =)
[04:12:55] <DaDave> delvinj: it's almost like just listing the methods, but it lacks of description how to use them...
[04:13:01] <DaDave> removeChild?
[04:13:02] <delvinj> DaDave: just tellin ya what i know.
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[04:13:08] <DaDave> hmm...
[04:13:29] <delvinj> http://www.dom4j.org/apidocs/org/dom4j/Element.html#remove(org.dom4j.Attribute)
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[04:13:48] <DaDave> damn... i need to proceed with my actual project. i hate it whan i have to spend time on things which have nothing to do with the actual job.
[04:13:49] <delvinj> if that really doesnt work, then i would demand refundage
[04:13:51] <delvinj> ;)
[04:14:08] <delvinj> i know what you mean.  I'm a pool boy actually
[04:14:17] <DaDave> delvinj: i tried remove(Attribute) but the problem is that i cannot get the attribute :-)
[04:14:59] <delvinj> DaDave: why not?
[04:15:19] <DaDave> delvinj: i tried to get it but i get only null.
[04:15:54] <delvinj> DaDave: is it possible it does not exist?
[04:16:21] <delvinj> in DOM4j you have attribute(int), or attribute(String)
[04:16:29] <DaDave> hmm...
[04:16:39] <DaDave> okay, i will try it again with dom4j...
[04:16:47] <meatmanek> I'm writing a parser. I want to throw an exception if there's an error somewhere in the parsing.
[04:16:51] <meatmanek> best way to do it?
[04:16:54] <DaDave> maybe i made a misthake somewhere.
[04:17:12] <delvinj> DaDave: make sure you have the 1.6.1 release
[04:17:20] <DaDave> meatmanek: hmm, seems to be a pretty good idea to me.
[04:17:26] <DaDave> delvinj: why?
[04:17:38] <meatmanek> DaDave, rather, what is the best way to do it?
[04:17:57] <delvinj> DaDave: a couple api changes and 1.6.1 is the bomb diggity
[04:18:32] <meatmanek> write the class for the exception I throw? just throw a generic Exception? Is there already an exception type provided for this sort of use?
[04:18:46] <DaDave> meatmanek: Exceptions are for situations where something unexpected happens. i think a parse errror is something unexpected. so i think it's the right way.
[04:19:21] <meatmanek> no, i know that I should be using an exception. Reread my last question
[04:19:26] <DaDave> meatmanek: search the API-Docs of the J2se libs. i think for parse errors ther might be some existing ones.
[04:19:40] <meatmanek> aha.
[04:19:47] <meatmanek> ParseException
[04:19:52] <DaDave> delvinj: okay, i got. 1.6.1.
[04:20:33] <DaDave> delvinj: another thing that pisses me off pretty much is: why don't the tell on the dom4j page that it depends on jaxen-package and that i have to additionaly donwload it.
[04:20:43] <DaDave> delvinj: gosh i hate poor documentations.
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[04:22:38] <JDK6-Docs> DaDave: Since you mention documentation, do you have any complaints about Sun's docs? If so lay it on me :) I work there.
[04:22:52] <DaDave> hehe :-)
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[04:22:55] <vman_____> i love suns documentation :D
[04:23:11] <JDK6-Docs> Good to hear!
[04:23:20] <DaDave> JDK6-Docs: the problem with sun is not the docs, the problem is the poor software design :-)
[04:24:02] <slava> apple has very good docs
[04:24:05] <JDK6-Docs> ahh well that I can't help with... not my area... I'm addressing doc-only complaints
[04:24:07] <slava> and a nice documentation browser
[04:25:02] <JDK6-Docs> Whats the general opinon in here regarding java web start? Good/bad/indifferent?
[04:25:20] <slava> i've never used it
[04:25:23] <vman_____> JDK6-Docs: do you have some sort of set guidelines on how employees at sun are supposed to write documentation, in terms of wording and stuff?
[04:25:32] <DaDave> JDK6-Docs: it's a wonderfull thing. but it is useless bc most PC's don't have JRE installed :-(
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[04:25:59] <frohike> Can anybody show me an example of Hibernate mapping with self-referencing classes?
[04:26:00] <JDK6-Docs> vman- yes theres a writing team
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[04:26:33] <delvinj> DaDave: http://www.dom4j.org/dependencies.html
[04:26:57] <ramza3> JDK6-Docs: it was buggy last time I used it, didnt keep up with changes on the server, stuff like that?  and why have webstart if you have applets
[04:26:58] <JDK6-Docs> DaDave: Yeah it seems to me that Java Web Start is MUCH more in line with the original goal of deploying apps easily across the network. Which is basically what applets were originally supposed to be for
[04:27:04] <delvinj> DaDave: maybe that shuld be linked from the download page
[04:27:13] <DaDave> delvinj: yeah, exactly.
[04:27:19] <delvinj> DaDave: or maybe you need to pay more attention :p
[04:27:34] <DaDave> delvinj: maybe that too :-)
[04:27:48] <DaDave> delvinj: maybe i should stop coding and go fishing :-)
[04:27:56] <delvinj> DaDave: there we go =)
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[04:28:29] <JDK6-Docs> ramza3: The idea is that it allows you to run a local app without having to deal with the browser. How many people in here use applets for serious applications (I am curious)
[04:28:51] <slava> i only ever run stand-alone java apps
[04:28:53] <DaDave> JDK6-Docs: java webstart would be an excelent thing if sun would be able to force MS to preinstall JRE on every windows installation. with preinstalled JRE+Web Start sun would be able to beat Macromedia Flash /Flex...
[04:28:55] <slava> i don't even have the java plugin installed
[04:28:59] <octoberdan> "bad class file" hmmm...
[04:29:00] <delvinj> so, is there any decent swing component for looking at html docs?
[04:29:41] <ramza3> I could use FTP and just download a java jar file, seems to serve the save purpose as webstart
[04:29:46] <slava> exactly
[04:30:05] <ramza3> and it wont crash or lockup
[04:30:13] <JDK6-Docs> You want to manually FTP it every time? Java web start will auto-check for the latest version of the app
[04:30:32] <slava> that just slows down startup
[04:30:42] <eidolon> mmm.  webstart.
[04:31:05] * eidolon totally [hearts] webstart . it's making it psosible for us to kick microsoft's ass completely.
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[04:31:42] <JDK6-Docs> I use webstart all the time for real apps at work and I personally like the point and click ease :)
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[04:31:51] <DaDave> delvinj: okay, i tried it again with dom4j and now it works. i think i was already tired and freakin drunken when i tried it several houhrs ago :-)
[04:32:03] <delvinj> DaDave: aha =)
[04:32:11] <delvinj> DaDave: good deal =)
[04:32:31] <DaDave> delvinj: so thank you very much to pointing me retry with dom4j.
[04:32:46] <DaDave> delvinj: you maybe saved me some more wasted houhrs :-)
[04:32:47] <delvinj> at work we dont do anything with java+xml without dom4j, your're just askin for it otherwise =)
[04:33:03] <eidolon> dom4j rocks.  i'm also enjoying working with xstream.
[04:33:21] <delvinj> i need to check that out
[04:34:47] <ramza3> JDK6-Docs, off-topic; this would be a great place for good examples on how to use InputStream, http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/io/InputStream.html
[04:35:26] <ramza3> like reading or writing a file using bufferedwriter or reader, bytearrayinputstrem, etc
[04:35:37] <JDK6-Docs> Hmm yeah getting examples into the API spec is kind of a touchy subject
[04:35:42] <DaDave> delvinj: yeah, dom4j maybe good. but what i don't like is that the use .attribute rather than getAttribute and such things. but maybe i'm an old fashioned beans guy :-)
[04:36:04] <delvinj> DaDave: less typing dude
[04:36:30] <DaDave> delvinj: i don't type much. i'm a auto-completition addict :-)
[04:36:37] <delvinj> i really dont mind using methods that aren't named 'getWHatever'
[04:37:08] <delvinj> I cant wait till the future, when i just talk at my computer
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[04:37:23] * delvinj instructs his computer to do is damn work
[04:37:31] <DaDave> another thing that bothers me is casting. casting is always something problematic i think...
[04:37:47] <delvinj> DaDave: why?
[04:38:08] <delvinj> it can be a pain if the api does not support generics
[04:38:09] <DaDave> hmm. first of all you need to knwo what to cast to what. and in most cases this is not very well documented.
[04:38:25] <delvinj> but with dom4j you *should* always know what you are getting
[04:38:34] <delvinj> ie. list of Elements, list of Attributes
[04:39:00] <DaDave> for exmaple the selectSingleNode returns a Node Boject and you have to "manualy" cast it to Element, Attribute, whatever...
[04:39:24] <delvinj> DaDave: casting to Node never fails
[04:39:30] <delvinj> start there if you are having problems
[04:39:47] <delvinj> you'll find that it's not that nebulous once you work with it a bit
[04:39:53] <DaDave> delvinj: the problem is that i may not not to which object i have to cast or can cast to...
[04:40:18] <delvinj> DaDave: try sitting closer to the monitor maybe? =)
[04:40:23] <DaDave> delvinj: i just don't think that casting fits to design by contract approach (which i like pretty much).
[04:40:36] <DaDave> delvinj: my monitor is close enough :-)
[04:41:04] <delvinj> DaDave: right, but you should be casting within a range of objects all implementing Node or similar
[04:41:12] <DaDave> hmm...
[04:41:19] <delvinj> i would make sure that you aren't accidentally casting to javax.swing.text.Element
[04:41:20] <delvinj> or something
[04:41:30] <DaDave> yeah.
[04:41:31] <delvinj> or one of the w3c classes
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[04:41:56] <delvinj> DaDave: if you have a specific problem with something there is always pastebin :)
[04:42:06] <cHaoTiCa> :)
[04:42:22] <DaDave> but okay. for now i am going to finaly have my bath (the bath was read 5 houhrs ago when i started haveing trouble with JDOM). i wonder what temperature it will have now :-)
[04:42:32] <delvinj> heheh
[04:42:38] <delvinj> ahoy!
[04:43:00] <DaDave> hehe
[04:43:08] <DaDave> your funny one :-)
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[04:43:53] <DaDave> btw: did anyone of you got lately in touch with Ruby on Rails?
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[04:44:51] <ramza3> DaDave: ahhh....sucks
[04:45:21] <DaDave> ramza3: tell me more.
[04:46:05] <ramza3> DaDave: it has the same thing a lot of other frameworks have had already, just a little lighter; also not as flexible
[04:46:29] <DaDave> ramza3: what exactly don't you like about it?
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[04:47:07] <ramza3> DaDave: ok, maybe suck is a bad word, but it isnt anything new; the ruby press make it seem like it will change your life
[04:47:12] <Goosemoose> anyone here gotten a chance to play around with netbeans mobility pack 5.0?
[04:47:13] <DaDave> ramza3: i found that one nice thing about it is that the syntax is more close to the business domain...
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[04:47:33] <ramza3> DaDave: jsf has the same thing
[04:47:46] <DaDave> ramza3: yeah that's true, it's kind of a hype right now.
[04:47:47] <slava> eh, rails is not like jsf at all
[04:47:55] <slava> ruby is dynamically-typed and has closures, for one
[04:48:09] <ramza3> slava: in terms of web-development, some things are similar
[04:48:12] <DaDave> ramza3: i think so too. JSF and rails have many differences.
[04:48:22] <ramza3> syntax wise, sure
[04:48:59] <Amnesiac> slava, still talking about closures? :)
[04:49:03] <DaDave> ramza3: i think if your code refelcts more your business model that could be a big plus.
[04:49:06] <Amnesiac> slava, same talk as yesterday?
[04:49:45] <DaDave> btw: there is an interesting article next month in the JavaMagazine here in germany about DSL (Domain Specific Languages).
[04:49:46] <ramza3> DaDave: that is what beans have been doing for years
[04:50:20] <delvinj> have a good night all
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[04:50:27] <DaDave> ramza3: yeah, but compared to ruby syntax, ruby seems to be much more closer to the refelction of the business domain/model...
[04:50:39] <ramza3> DaDave: I have only used RoR for a week, so I don't really know; but at first glance..
[04:50:51] <DaDave> oh, how bad. i wanted to say thanks to delvinj...
[04:51:16] <DaDave> ramza3: have you just played with it or did you used it on a real project?
[04:51:33] <ramza3> well if a week is real project to you...no just played with it
[04:52:11] <DaDave> ramza3: no. a week is not a real project (well, at least in most cases). but a week could be the start of a project. got me?
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[04:52:57] <DaDave> btw: did anyone tried db4objects?
[04:53:51] <ramza3> I get paid to do jsf, it can be pretty messy too
[04:55:27] <DaDave> ramza3: for how long do you work with JSF?
[04:55:28] <slava> ramza3: you poor man
[04:55:49] <ramza3> slava: I cry at night, why do you think I am learning all this other stuff
[04:55:49] <slava> ramza3: i get paid to code objective C :)
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[04:57:26] <ramza3> slava: never seen it
[04:57:57] <ramza3> slava: on linux or mac or both
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[04:59:48] <ramza3> ....z.zzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzz
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[05:06:52] <[GT]Kane> whats people think about this in price and specs. I would increase ram to 2gigs for another 25$ but you must know I'm using this for 64bit slamd64 and java vm ibm one 64bit and 64bit mysql to run a java server for a game. I hear amd64's had almost a 300% improvment in java. http://www.layeredtech.com/order.php?packageId=130
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[05:08:50] <slava> ramza3: many mac apps are written in objective C
[05:10:07] <ramza3> slava: I wonder if the older mac apps were written in objc
[05:10:14] <cored> lo slava
[05:10:24] <slava> no, objective C came from NextStep to Mac OS X
[05:10:32] <ramza3> hmm
[05:10:56] <slava> hi cored
[05:14:22] <DaDave> damn. i got in trouble with dom4j now.
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[05:15:21] <DaDave> i have a tag <span wicket:id="myId">...</span> and i wan to select this tag via XPath. but "span[@wicket:id='myId']" does not work with dom4j. any suggestions?
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[05:16:25] <[GT]Kane> whats people think about this in price and specs. I would increase ram to 2gigs for another 25$ but you must know I'm using this for 64bit slamd64 and java vm ibm one 64bit and 64bit mysql to run a java server for a game. I hear amd64's had almost a 300% improvment in java. http://www.layeredtech.com/order.php?packageId=130
[05:16:42] <cHaoTiCa> does dom4j know namespaces?
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[05:17:32] <DaDave> cHaoTiCa: basicly yes.
[05:17:33] <chromate> hi there. i'm wondering how i refer to files that are in a JAR file. i used eclipse to export an executable JAR file of my project, however, when I try to execute it (java -jar program.jar), all the files on the harddrive that it reads are no longer readable. i did export all the resources into the jar file, so there must be a special way to specify their path. can somebody point me in the right direction?
[05:18:55] <cHaoTiCa> if it knows namespaces, i'd think it likely that the name was changed to one that has the namespace uri as opposed to the name
[05:19:13] <cHaoTiCa> since namespace aliases don't mean much to the parser
[05:19:57] <chromate> i'm not sure what you mean by namespaces?
[05:20:12] <DaDave> cHaoTiCa: the problems seems that i don't know how dom4j expects me to type a prefixed attribute name in an xpath...
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[05:20:38] <DaDave> wicket:id="..." is an attribute which is in a specific namespace.
[05:20:48] <DaDave> and i want to select this attribute.
[05:20:51] <DaDave> with xpath :-)
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[05:22:24] <DaDave> okay, but i think that's it for today...
[05:22:31] <DaDave> gonna get my bath now :-)
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[05:23:18] <DaDave> thank you all for your help (to them who helped :-)) and have a good night...
[05:23:20] <DaDave> cu all
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[05:25:30] <chromate> this channel has never been so quiet before =)
[05:25:40] <cHaoTiCa> heh
[05:25:52] <cHaoTiCa> it's often this quiet :)
[05:27:28] <Honk^away> ..
[05:27:33] <Honk^away> 2 minutes of silence
[05:28:13] <Honk^away> that's all what it takes to make you feel like it's "never been so quite before"?
[05:28:20] <mohadib> bah
[05:28:32] <mohadib> java + windows + users never seem to work together
[05:28:48] <Honk^away> you can skip the java + part :P
[05:28:54] <mohadib> heh
[05:28:55] <Honk^away> and maybe the + users as well
[05:28:58] <chromate> Honk^away: more or less, i'm an attention whore.
[05:29:40] <mohadib> i got this webstart app , and i dont have a winders box , so im trying to use gaim to talk my GF through installing java etc...
[05:29:46] <mohadib> not going well at all... :\
[05:30:16] <Honk^away> isnt installing java just clicking yes a few times on java.com? :)
[05:30:22] <mohadib> hehe
[05:30:34] <mohadib> well , that worked but web start just wont work
[05:30:43] <mohadib> and now im trying to trouble sjhoot
[05:30:50] <Honk^away> maybe your app is messed up? :P
[05:30:54] <mohadib> i dunno
[05:30:56] <mohadib> could be
[05:30:56] <Honk^away> what's the errormsg? =)
[05:31:04] <mohadib> thats what im trying to fiugure out
[05:31:09] <Honk^away> d'oh ;)
[05:31:22] <mohadib> no error msg , it just hangs and says starting app ... according to her
[05:31:36] <Honk^away> uhh, that's bad :)
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[05:43:14] <slava> anybody want to design a GUI theme for me?
[05:43:19] <slava> mohadib
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[05:50:23] <mohadib> slava: for what application?
[05:50:39] <mohadib> like what exactly?
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[05:51:32] <slava> mohadib: i'm adding opengl rendering to my gui toolkit... so i can do something fancier than the win 3.11 look, but i suck at designing widgets
[05:51:40] <mohadib> haha
[05:52:10] <pchapman> slava, You're building an alternative GUI toolkit?
[05:52:12] <mohadib> i have never really tried to impliment one ... you need some one to photoshop up a theme or?
[05:52:34] <slava> mohadib: yeah, just some drawings
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[05:52:40] <mohadib> hmm
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[05:53:06] <mohadib> i would rip GTK :)
[05:53:17] <slava> nah
[05:53:22] <mohadib> its pretty imho
[05:53:52] <mohadib> i think GTKs tree widget is lame
[05:53:57] <mohadib> but other than that..
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[05:55:36] <mohadib> hmm , anyone with windows willing to try my app ... its a small swing app that uses the jdic tray ...thing :)?
[05:56:25] <mohadib> it's webstart :)
[05:57:08] <pchapman> slava, You're building a GUI toolkit?
[06:00:35] * pchapman shrugs
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[06:01:43] <slava> pchapman: yes
[06:02:05] <kinabalu> mohadib: what did you build?
[06:02:09] <slava> good night all
[06:02:16] <mohadib> kinabalu: a chat client...
[06:02:21] <mohadib> uses ssl
[06:02:27] <cybereal> mohadib: link us
[06:02:28] <kinabalu> mohadib: oh, nm .. useless :)
[06:02:33] <mohadib> lol
[06:02:43] <mohadib> cybereal: cool one sec
[06:02:46] <kinabalu> i mean jeez .. thats like asking someone eating pie, if they want a pie
[06:03:00] <mohadib> www.javanub.net:8080/javanub/gc.jnlp
[06:03:20] <cybereal> kinabalu: if I was eating pie, and you asked if I wanted pie, I'd love you... might have something to do with why my domain name is ilikepie.us though :)
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[06:04:09] <kinabalu> cybereal: want a pie?
[06:04:30] <cybereal> yes!
[06:04:41] <|Agent> Does != bind more tightly than ?:, precedence-wise?
[06:05:04] <|Agent> In other words, do I need to enclose the != expression in parentheses?
[06:05:36] <Honk^away> using () when you're not sure is never wrong :P
[06:05:55] <cybereal> mohadib: tray icon works; otherwise it's not doin' much
[06:05:59] <pchapman> And it can make things more readable.
[06:05:59] <Honk^away> and if it's only to ensure readability without having to think about evaluation order ;)
[06:06:03] <cybereal> little window with some places to type stuff heh
[06:06:26] <|Agent> ...but Java code is already so cluttered... :(
[06:06:27] <mohadib> cybereal: you using windows xp?
[06:06:46] <mohadib> or windows period?
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[06:07:09] <mohadib> you can right click the tray icon to get a exit menu
[06:07:35] <cybereal> mohadib: I am using winxp; and I made it crash, that's how I exited :)
[06:07:46] <mohadib> lol
[06:07:49] <mohadib> thanks :)
[06:07:56] <mohadib> so it must be my GF box
[06:08:05] <mohadib> ~cybereal++
[06:08:05] <javabot> cybereal has a karma level of 4, mohadib
[06:08:10] <cybereal> woohoo 4
[06:08:20] * cybereal wonders where the other 3 came from
[06:08:43] <jwormy> haha
[06:08:51] <mohadib> jwormy: :)
[06:08:55] <jwormy> mohafdsjfdskf
[06:08:58] <mohadib> thats why i had to go :p
[06:09:16] <mohadib> jwormy: the web start does work now :)
[06:09:22] <jwormy> mohadib, sweeeet
[06:09:33] <mohadib> yep :)
[06:10:00] <mohadib> cybereal: there is a dir now  in "user.home"/.gorilla you might want to delete it
[06:10:04] <cybereal> when I wrote a java irc client, it was webstart
[06:10:09] <cybereal> that was when webstart was brand new, literally
[06:10:12] <mohadib> its my public key
[06:10:15] <cybereal> mohadib: ok
[06:11:20] * jwormy patiently waits for the big redneck to come knock on his door
[06:11:26] <mohadib> LOL
[06:11:43] <mohadib> just offer him some pabst blue ribbon
[06:11:47] <cybereal> why .gorilla?
[06:11:56] <mohadib> gorilla chat is the name
[06:12:12] <cybereal> why gorilla?
[06:12:22] <cybereal> What network does it connect to?
[06:12:26] <mohadib> heh , cause when it's done it will have skins
[06:12:51] <mohadib> cybereal: it connects just to a server that runs a custom protocol now
[06:12:53] <cybereal> skins are bad
[06:12:57] <cybereal> mohadib: I see
[06:13:01] <cybereal> mohadib: make it a jabber client!
[06:13:07] <jwormy> cybereal, no
[06:13:08] <mohadib> skins that will make it look like notepad
[06:13:12] <cybereal> with ssl, so it can connect to google talk
[06:13:19] <cybereal> hah
[06:13:35] <mohadib> the chat winow auto closes in 2 minutes if you are not talking
[06:13:35] <pchapman> mohadib, Where did you buy your key from?
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[06:13:49] <pchapman> I've been looking into buying one.
[06:13:49] <mohadib> it will ask you for a passwd to open it again
[06:13:55] <mohadib> pchapman: godaddy
[06:13:58] <mohadib> but it is crap
[06:14:23] <pchapman> mohadib, It's not recognized by IE and Firefox?
[06:14:26] <mohadib> i have to copy a keystore to the users box or import my key to use the stupid thing
[06:14:35] <pchapman> I see.
[06:14:39] <mohadib> pchapman: i have not tried it with a brower
[06:14:43] <mohadib> browser
[06:15:25] <mohadib> but it works :)  i could have did this with a self signed key
[06:15:27] <pchapman> I was thinking signed applet, but you answered my question well enough.
[06:15:32] <mohadib> :)
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[06:30:07] <niakia`> can someone show me how to generate javadoc please
[06:30:33] <niakia`> i have something like this for a comment for a function
[06:30:33] <niakia`> /**
[06:30:33] <niakia`>     Get the previous element in the sequence.
[06:30:33] <niakia`>     @param no param.
[06:30:33] <niakia`>     */
[06:30:47] <niakia`> where do i go (html) to check it out ?
[06:31:15] <niakia`> i mean..where is it generated for me to see it ?
[06:32:16] <ijoyce> niakia`, see the javadoc command that comes with java
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[06:33:33] <mohadib> ~tell niakia` about pastebin
[06:33:33] <javabot> niakia`, Paste your code, preferably a test case, any errors, and any other relevant information into the pastebin and tell us the URL: http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin
[06:33:42] <mohadib> ~tell niakia` about flood
[06:33:43] <javabot> niakia`, Please don't flood, it's irritating.  We *do* have a pastebin or two.
[06:34:50] <ijoyce> like those 5 lines is any better... ;-)
[06:34:55] <ijoyce> s/is/are/
[06:46:10] <ijoyce> how do I test that a method throws an Exception?
[06:46:27] <ijoyce> via JUnit
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[06:50:01] <slava> mohadib tests his code with GUnit
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[06:52:45] <snooplsm> int s=((Integer)this.evaluate(expr.substring(++i,expr.length()),0)).intValue();      Claims i can not cast from float to integer, evaluate returns float.
[06:53:44] <kinabalu> snooplsm: ok, so what does this.evaluate return?
[06:53:56] <kinabalu> float or Float?
[06:54:20] <snooplsm> float
[06:54:35] <kinabalu> snooplsm: and you're trying to cast it to what?
[06:54:44] <ijoyce> intValue() might be a problem then
[06:54:48] <snooplsm> Integer,
[06:54:55] <snooplsm> then use intValue so that int s can accept it.
[06:54:57] <kinabalu> snooplsm: umm .. you can't cast a primitive, with an object
[06:55:09] <snooplsm> so how do i go from float to int?
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[06:55:17] <Bevin> hi
[06:55:22] <cybereal> Integer.valueOf() or something like that
[06:55:23] <kinabalu> int i = (int)floatValue;
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[06:55:34] <snooplsm> ok..
[06:55:39] <snooplsm> fucking java
[06:55:42] <snooplsm> thanks
[06:55:58] <kinabalu> read your damn book more, and stop snoozing in class ;)
[06:56:13] <snooplsm> haha, i'm c++ this java is new to me and its not an intro class
[06:56:19] <ijoyce> yes it's painfully straight forward
[06:56:26] <cybereal> kills me how people get angry when a language does something they don't like
[06:56:27] <snooplsm> i don't have a book.
[06:56:32] <cybereal> as if it wasn't defined or something
[06:57:17] <snooplsm> i'm actually creating an applet on a side project, i think it will be pretty useful once its complete.
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[06:57:24] <pchapman> cybereal, They want the i_read_developers_minds language.
[06:57:29] <kinabalu> snooplsm: they always do, they always do
[06:57:54] <cybereal> pchapman: perl?
[06:58:30] <cybereal> snooplsm: a useful applet?
[06:58:33] <pchapman> cybereal,  That's the i_make_developers_go_mad_reading_my_syntax language.
[06:58:45] <cybereal> pchapman: yeah, but then they THINK that it's reading their mind
[06:58:53] <pchapman> LOL
[07:00:51] <snooplsm> yea
[07:00:58] <snooplsm> of course it needs to be signed
[07:01:47] <cybereal> snooplsm: what will it do?  I have never found a useful applet (except the X servers on wiredx.net)
[07:02:14] <pchapman> People still write applets?  Huh.  Who knew?
[07:02:24] <cybereal> pchapman: no joke
[07:02:57] <snooplsm> cybereal, pm me if you want to know what it does.
[07:03:04] <snooplsm> i'm keeping it on the down lo.
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[07:15:18] <kinabalu> snooplsm: i'll bite .. what is it?
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[07:29:11] <mohadib> slava: hahah gunit
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[07:58:19] <lms> could someone explain to me how to loop through a circular linked list stored in an array, or point to any helpful websites?
[07:59:27] <cybereal> a circular linked list stored in an array?
[07:59:36] <cybereal> wtf would you store a linked list in an array for?
[08:00:05] <mohadib> heh
[08:00:17] <mohadib> how do you keep track of the next node?
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[08:00:27] <mohadib> thats not a linked list
[08:00:53] <cHaoTiCa> defeats one of the main purposes of even having a linked list, imo
[08:00:55] <lms> the values are stored in an array
[08:01:04] <lms> of the objects
[08:01:12] <mohadib> lms: where you you store the refrence to the next node?
[08:01:33] <mohadib> do you know what a linked list is?
[08:01:35] <cybereal> lms: I don't think you know what a linked list is
[08:01:44] <lms> i'm wrong calling it a linked list
[08:01:52] <cHaoTiCa> apparently :)
[08:01:55] <lms> it's linear, with the head and tail and odd oppositions
[08:02:13] <cHaoTiCa> odd oppositions?
[08:02:17] <cybereal> lms: you said it was in an array
[08:02:26] <lms> it's circular
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[08:02:32] <lms> so it loops around
[08:04:22] <cHaoTiCa> hrm
[08:04:24] <cybereal> an array is a specific thing in java
[08:04:33] <cybereal> don't say array if you don't mean it
[08:04:40] <mohadib> ~tell lms about bunny
[08:04:40] <javabot> lms, bunny is Just For You! http://www.userfriendly.org/illiad/wtf.jpg
[08:05:03] <cHaoTiCa> hehehhe
[08:05:09] <mohadib> :)
[08:05:17] <cHaoTiCa> kawaii!!! :)
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[08:07:16] <cHaoTiCa> anyway.  lms....sounds more like an impromptu deque or queue you have there
[08:07:31] <cHaoTiCa> depending on how you use the head and tail
[08:08:57] <cHaoTiCa> but they're not normally circular
[08:09:16] <lms> it's a circular queue, I think I almost have it, if not I'll rephrase the question in a minute
[08:10:07] <cHaoTiCa> sounds close....but queue + circular kinda defeats the purpose of queues, doesn't it?
[08:12:04] <cHaoTiCa> anyway.... for (int i = start; i != end; i = (i + 1) % array.length) { /* do stuff */ }
[08:12:36] <cHaoTiCa> if your thingie makes any sense at all, that code ought to help
[08:13:25] <cHaoTiCa> i is the index of the entry...array[i] is the entry
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[08:14:27] <cybereal> mod's my favorite operator
[08:14:43] <cHaoTiCa> it is a pretty helpful one :)
[08:14:51] <lms> yeah, that's what i want.  thanks
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[08:26:30] <pchapman> I hate writing loops to read data from inputstreams into outputstreams.
[08:27:46] <cHaoTiCa> why?
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[08:28:16] <berke> whats the java character for null?
[08:28:21] <pchapman> It just seems like it's something that Sun would have put into the util library.
[08:28:30] <cybereal> berke: does not compute
[08:28:47] <rogue-kun{B}|Awa> berke: keyword: null
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[08:28:52] <pchapman> Also, I never know how big to set the buffer.  Too small, and it runs slow.  Too large and you blow memory.
[08:29:02] <berke> ive created an applet wher enumbers are entered into text fields, and if text fields are blank I need them to be read as 0
[08:29:04] <cHaoTiCa> pchapman....heh.   there's a lot of stuff that should be in the api that isn't
[08:29:43] <cHaoTiCa> i think there should be a System.cin :)
[08:30:12] <cybereal> cHaoTiCa: System.in
[08:30:35] <pchapman> System.cin?
[08:30:37] <cHaoTiCa> it annoys me to have to layer a BufferedReader over an InputStreamReader over System.in just to read a line of text
[08:30:50] <pchapman> Ah.
[08:30:58] <cybereal> cHaoTiCa: it just serves to keep things consistent
[08:31:31] <pchapman> cybereal, Consistant is good, but providing auxillary helper methods is great.
[08:31:53] <ijoyce> berke, override getText()
[08:31:54] <cybereal> pchapman: it's not hard to make that buffered stream
[08:32:24] <pchapman> cybereal, No.  It's not hard.  That wasn't the point.  It's annoying when you do it *all the time*.
[08:32:37] <cHaoTiCa> but it's a line of code that just about every console app does
[08:32:42] <cybereal> pchapman: make yourself a toolkit
[08:32:49] <pchapman> It's not hard to write the loop I was talking about; just annoying.
[08:32:50] <cHaoTiCa> it shouldn't need doing
[08:33:25] <cybereal> cHaoTiCa: that's just reality of programming
[08:33:28] <cHaoTiCa> esp considering stdin should consist of chars in about 99.9% of all cases
[08:33:32] <cybereal> there will always be downfalls in every language
[08:33:53] <cybereal> cHaoTiCa: also consider java was never intended to be used for "console" apps anyway.
[08:33:57] <pchapman> cybereal, Not if they asked me first.  :-)
[08:34:00] <cHaoTiCa> dunno.....the stuff i don't like about java, isn't in .net :)
[08:34:37] <rogue-kun{B}> if (textfeild.getText().equals("")) textfeild.setText("0");
[08:34:54] <heanol> getextenfielden
[08:35:35] <cybereal> cHaoTiCa: .NET only works right on windows, what's the point of that?
[08:35:44] <cHaoTiCa> and linux
[08:35:50] <cHaoTiCa> and probably *bsd
[08:36:08] <Cow_woC> Mono is going to get locked out by M$ when it feels threatened
[08:36:13] <Cow_woC> there is already evidence of that
[08:36:16] <cHaoTiCa> both mono and the shared source cli are cross platform
[08:36:19] <Cow_woC> no such evidence with Sun + Java
[08:36:29] <Cow_woC> furthermore, Java runs on a lot more than just Windows, linux, bsd
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[08:37:12] <cHaoTiCa> i'm not sure how many platforms mono and sscli run on
[08:37:17] <cybereal> cHaoTiCa: mono is crap
[08:37:24] <Cow_woC> A few years ago maybe .NET had one thing on Java -> multiple languages under the same platform; but even this no longer holds true
[08:37:26] <cHaoTiCa> but they're both open source
[08:37:53] <cybereal> doesn't matter, M$ holds 100% rights to C#, VB.NET, and .NET in general. They can turn off mono when they please.
[08:38:00] <Cow_woC> exactly
[08:38:00] <cHaoTiCa> Cow_woC....heh.  i've yet to see a language i'd want to use on the jvm
[08:38:06] <cybereal> only reason they don't is because mono sucks ass
[08:38:24] <cHaoTiCa> cybereal....heh.  they can't just turn it off
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[08:38:30] <Cow_woC> cHaoTiCa: well, that's another story :) How many people do you know who use anything but C# under .net?
[08:38:42] <cHaoTiCa> i use vb.net and ilasm
[08:38:45] <Cow_woC> point is, though, it can be done and has been done. JPython, etc
[08:38:59] <cHaoTiCa> and c#, of course :)
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[08:39:22] <Cow_woC> Sun has consistently shown it is far more community-friendly than Microsoft, so I really think this is a no-brainer. Also, IDEs for Java is *far* better than .NET ones
[08:39:33] <cHaoTiCa> heh
[08:39:42] <cHaoTiCa> don't even go there
[08:39:53] <Cow_woC> how so?
[08:40:00] <Cow_woC> Visual Studio for .NET is poor
[08:40:04] <cHaoTiCa> vs.net > just about every java ide i've ever seen
[08:40:08] <cybereal> yuck no
[08:40:10] <cybereal> learn to use eclipse
[08:40:12] <Cow_woC> absolutely not
[08:40:19] <cHaoTiCa> eclipse is a pain
[08:40:23] <Cow_woC> vs.net is real trash compared to the *many* excellent Java IDEs
[08:40:26] <cybereal> also, dollar for dollar, you can't even include VS
[08:40:26] <cHaoTiCa> where's the form builder?
[08:40:44] <cybereal> cHaoTiCa: plugin
[08:40:44] <Cow_woC> cHaoTiCa: Netbeans has a great form builder
[08:40:56] * KingNato wouldn't use a form builder if he had one :)
[08:41:04] <berke> ok why wont this expression evaluate? if(s = null)
[08:41:10] <berke> where s is a string
[08:41:13] <Cow_woC> besides which ..... IDEAJ + Netbeans + Eclipse + JBuilder >>>>> vs.net
[08:41:17] <rogue-kun{B}> bother Netbieans and JBuilder have form builders
[08:41:20] <Cow_woC> Java has a lot more going for it than .net
[08:41:22] <cybereal> berke: you probably mean s==null
[08:41:26] <cHaoTiCa> i shouldn't have to find a plugin for an ide whose purpose in life is building apps for what is supposedly a gui platform
[08:41:29] <berke> ahhhh
[08:41:47] <cybereal> cHaoTiCa: building GUI's with form builders almost always results in crappy guis
[08:41:49] <cHaoTiCa> jbuilder is complete and total shit
[08:41:52] <Cow_woC> cHaoTiCa: again, try Netbeans
[08:41:57] <Cow_woC> it has a very good form editor
[08:42:09] <cybereal> since eclipse is "for developers by developers" then you can see, the developers don't care about form builders
[08:42:10] <Cow_woC> integrated, as well as J2EE support as well
[08:42:15] <rogue-kun{B}> berke: there is a difrance between a null string and an empty string
[08:42:19] <pchapman> Real men code their GUIs.
[08:42:33] <berke> well I need it to spot an empty string
[08:42:41] <KingNato> pchapman: In INTERCAL!
[08:42:54] <pchapman> Yikes!
[08:43:07] <cHaoTiCa> i'm not a real man.  :)  i want an easy way to build a gui, at least as a basis
[08:43:08] <rogue-kun{B}> s == null is only useful to chech if the string object has benn created, else s.equals(""); is more usefull if you want to find an empty string
[08:43:31] <KingNato> Though INTERCAL isn't really for real men, considering you have to be polite to it, which no real man would stand for
[08:43:33] <cHaoTiCa> Cow_woC....is netbeans the ide that sun puts out?
[08:43:37] <cHaoTiCa> i forget
[08:43:59] <Cow_woC> cHaoTiCa: Netbeans is open source, Sun licensed it and releases Forte for Java as their version
[08:44:04] <pchapman> cHaoTiCa, Yes.  It is
[08:44:14] <rogue-kun{B}> netbeans is based on the SUNs Forte/Studio Onhe, not quite the same thing 8)
[08:44:15] <Cow_woC> cHaoTiCa: see http://www.netbeans.org/
[08:44:30] <cHaoTiCa> heh.  forte == crap as well.  nice form editor, but it's slow as balls
[08:44:31] <Cow_woC> rogue-kun{B}: the opposite is true. Forte is based on Netbeans.
[08:44:32] * AngelusMori sighs
[08:44:52] <rogue-kun{B}> Studio One is to Netbeans , as Netscape is to Mozzila 8)
[08:45:15] <Cow_woC> yeah basically
[08:45:42] <Cow_woC> cHaoTiCa: I will agree they're all slow nowadays... but mostly this is true because people kept on requesting more and more features (we never use or need)
[08:45:46] <cHaoTiCa> www.netbeans.org isn't loading for me
[08:45:47] <cybereal> anyway there is no point in this "argument"
[08:46:13] <Cow_woC> it is insane how much functionality is packed into Eclipse, Netbeans, etc nowadays
[08:46:26] <Cow_woC> cHaoTiCa: same, how odd
[08:46:28] <cybereal> yeah, and FOR FREE
[08:46:37] <Cow_woC> true
[08:46:53] <Cow_woC> cHaoTiCa: try again in a few mins .. maybe it's down for servicing
[08:47:15] <Cow_woC> anyway, I like Netbeans...... though I often wish they'd focus more on optimization and less on features
[08:47:15] <cHaoTiCa> i find you usually get what you pay for.  :)  netbeans might not be too bad, since i assume sun still has some control over it
[08:47:38] <Cow_woC> Sun has employees working on Netbeans but Sun does not own it.
[08:47:51] <AngelusMori> is there a way to draw a single pixel on a java.awt.Graphics?
[08:47:59] <Cow_woC> Netbeans has existed before Sun and is independant
[08:48:04] <cybereal> Eclipse is also a general platform for IDEs, not just java
[08:48:07] <cybereal> don't forget that
[08:48:28] <Cow_woC> yeah, which is why I keep on saying they're biting more than they can chew
[08:48:45] <Cow_woC> they (all) need to stop with all these new features and focus on optimization for a few months
[08:48:57] <rogue-kun{B}> Basicly the only reasons to use stuido One over netbeas is 1) acess to pirtertary code 2) a Paper tain for support/blame
[08:48:57] <Cow_woC> things are getting out of hand and CPU speeds are no longer doubling every 3 months
[08:49:17] <cybereal> Cow_woC: more control on memory usage would be nice, i.e. only loading plugins if they are actually being used
[08:49:31] <Cow_woC> cybereal: well, they do that now (to my understanding)
[08:49:47] <Cow_woC> cybereal: but the plugin and event framework itself is heavy
[08:49:57] <Cow_woC> it is just all "too much" already
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[08:50:29] <snooplsm> i just drank 2 liters of soda
[08:50:41] <Cow_woC> there used to be releases of Netbeans (4.x) that were very snappy. Nowdays, the dev builds for 5.0 are very sluggish
[08:50:55] <Cow_woC> so they have their ups and downs...
[08:51:13] <cHaoTiCa> bah.  netbeans doesn't even want to download
[08:51:22] <cHaoTiCa> sign from above? :)
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[08:51:47] <Cow_woC> cHaoTiCa: their site is down maybe once every couple of months. You simply got unlucky
[08:51:50] <cybereal> I don't like netbeans as much as eclipse
[08:51:58] <snooplsm> eclipse is great.
[08:51:59] <cHaoTiCa> i have eclipse
[08:52:04] <cHaoTiCa> it annoys me
[08:52:10] <Cow_woC> Eclipse annoys me too. I dislike the UI
[08:52:10] <snooplsm> how so.
[08:52:15] <mgrimes> intellij++
[08:52:24] <Cow_woC> it's a very subjective thing though... so I'm not trying to argue over it
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[08:52:46] <berke> ok my method is not working
[08:52:51] <berke> can someone look at it for me?
[08:52:53] <Cow_woC> anyway, I'm off to bed
[08:52:55] <Cow_woC> good night all
[08:52:56] * AngelusMori is used to netbeans 3.6 and 4
[08:53:02] <snooplsm> berke, paste it.
[08:53:14] <cybereal> I thought I disliked eclipse's UI but then I learned how to rearrange everything how I like it, and use the "quick access" panel for stuff I dont need to "stare" at
[08:53:29] <berke> public String checkVoid(String s){
[08:53:29] <berke> 	if(s == "")
[08:53:29] <berke> 		return "0";
[08:53:29] <berke> 	else
[08:53:29] <berke> 		return s;
[08:53:30] <berke> }
[08:53:31] <cHaoTiCa> one of the things that annoys me the most about all the major java ide's, is that they tend to be written in java
[08:53:39] <snooplsm> paste bin
[08:53:40] <cHaoTiCa> and not even high speed java :)
[08:53:41] <snooplsm> not here.
[08:53:53] <berke> sorry
[08:53:58] <snooplsm> www.pastebin.com
[08:53:59] <berke> he said paste it
[08:54:09] <berke> sorry Im new
[08:54:12] <snooplsm> i know.
[08:54:44] <KingNato> cHaoTiCa: IDEA is pretty snappy, and in Java
[08:54:48] <rogue-kun{B}> berke: trin s.equals("") insead of s == ""
[08:55:09] <berke> I tried that
[08:55:09] <mgrimes> idea is about as snappy as you get for a full featured java ide
[08:55:10] <cybereal> berke: you know you can just check that like: if (s != null && !s.trim().equals("")) {/*string is not empty*/}
[08:55:13] <rogue-kun{B}> as String is an object not a primitive
[08:55:14] <KingNato> Or at least it looks snappy when I see people use it, they'll pry emacs out of my cold, dead hands before I switch
[08:55:23] <AngelusMori> if s=="", s would be an nullpointer?!
[08:55:40] <KingNato> AngelusMori: Only in perverted database systems
[08:55:41] <cybereal> AngelusMori: no, it just isn't going to evaluate true
[08:55:49] <rogue-kun{B}> AngelusMori: nope just an empty string
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[08:56:55] <cHaoTiCa> downloading idea now :)
[08:57:06] <cHaoTiCa> i'll probably check it out at work :)
[08:57:27] <mgrimes> cHaoTiCa: yeah and get them to cough up a license
[08:57:31] <rogue-kun{B}> if (s == null || s.trim().equals("")) then return "0" else return s
[08:57:43] <cHaoTiCa> heh
[08:57:49] <mgrimes> i'd like to use visual paradigm enterprise edition and then i saw the price :)
[08:57:55] <cHaoTiCa> the office doesn't give a damn about java :)
[08:57:59] <rogue-kun{B}> opps don't for get the tewo ; i droped
[08:58:13] <wenko> by null do u mean not in a constructor?
[08:58:19] <wenko> or just not set
[08:58:34] <wenko> like int thisNumber;  then not giving it a value???
[08:58:51] <rogue-kun{B}> wenko: s == null to ame sure it has been created
[08:59:21] <wenko> where s is a filename?
[08:59:48] <wenko> ...gtg ...time for some zzzz's
[08:59:50] <rogue-kun{B}> no s is an instance of object type String
[08:59:56] <wenko> ok
[09:00:07] <rogue-kun{B}> oyasumi wenko
[09:00:42] <rogue-kun{B}> an import point to rember strings are object not primitives [in java]
[09:04:05] <snooplsm> you can think of a string as a character array.
[09:04:31] <rogue-kun{B}> snooplsm: that what it basicl is, but with a lot more funtions 8)
[09:04:57] <snooplsm> <-- had to write the whole string library 2 semesters ago.
[09:05:15] <snooplsm> what a waste of time,,,
[09:05:28] <rogue-kun{B}> snooplsm: unless yuo where studding C.. ;)
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[09:05:38] <cybereal> snooplsm: not a waste if you don't appreciate how it works
[09:05:40] <snooplsm> c++, it was cstring library actually.
[09:06:30] <rogue-kun{B}> snooplsm: well consdering your natt garrtedd to get a string linrary on all vertions fo c++ it important to be ablew to write your own
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[09:07:09] <KingNato> rogue-kun{B}: In which case it is equally useful no matter what language you're studying since you might end up working in C++ later on...
[09:07:27] <snooplsm> so it was good to writ ethe cstring library you say?
[09:07:40] <snooplsm> mm, dataFlavors taste good.
[09:07:41] * KingNato would just download an implementation of the C++ standard library in that situation, though
[09:07:42] <rogue-kun{B}> KingNato: this is inore the practice in creating a reusible object of cource
[09:07:56] <snooplsm> i have to take ashit
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[09:11:30] <rogue-kun{B}> well, oyasumai minna-san [good night everyone]
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[09:17:08] <berke> ok, my checkVoid method does nothing, it still cant catch empty textfields
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[09:48:05] <Clackwell> hi :)
[09:49:04] <TTT> hi
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[09:59:27] <pr3d4t0r> Clackwell: The first photo is her showing off some new Gucci jeans she bought; the second one is her birthday dessert.  Both are work-safe.
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[10:04:17] <EExtasEE> hi my lordz
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[10:09:09] <EExtasEE> can somone give me an information?I want to know if it is possible to past and load classes into web-inf/classes path (im using tomcat) without beeing forced to reload the whole webapp
[10:09:15] <EExtasEE> ?
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[10:10:24] <TTT> EExtasEE: not, it is not possible AFAIK
[10:10:34] <TTT> by not possible i mean hard and probably not worth it
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[10:12:14] <R3d> hi, I asked this question yesterday but didn't get much util ideas so I asked again so maybe some of you know how to do it...
[10:12:28] <roots_> by means of URLClassLoader its very simple
[10:12:35] <R3d>  I'm trying to implement the sieve of Atkins but have some difficulties with it..how do I count the pairs of x and y (only positive) that solve this: 4x^2 + y^2 = n where n is an integer..
[10:13:00] <EExtasEE>  by means of URLClassLoader its very simple <---I tried it
[10:14:08] <Clackwell> case of "i tried everything, nothing worked!" ? :)
[10:14:14] <Clackwell> hi roots_
[10:14:41] <EExtasEE> Clackwell : http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=671802&tstart=0
[10:14:59] <roots_> hi Clackwell
[10:15:58] <EExtasEE> I tried to past it into web-inf/classes, my classes can be used once, but after that my webapp dynamically reload it self
[10:16:02] <TTT> EExtasEE: um, do you get any exceptions?
[10:16:13] <EExtasEE> no exception
[10:16:29] <TTT> silently ignoring exceptions like you did in your code example is a bad idea IMHO
[10:16:37] <EExtasEE> the only problem is the class loading
[10:16:59] <EExtasEE> TTT yes I know, I did it to not past too many code
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[10:17:11] <Clackwell> EExtasEE: got it to work in a java application? or doesn't it make sense to test it in such limited scope? can't tell at the moment.
[10:17:48] <EExtasEE> Yes it works into a java application
[10:18:08] <roots_> it depends on the parent of the URLClassLoader
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[10:18:30] <EExtasEE> ??
[10:18:57] <roots_> working with Files there is a bit error prone, but it is ok when you know the implications
[10:19:18] <heanol> sometimes i wish java was more dynamic
[10:19:34] <Clackwell> no, cooler!
[10:19:44] <Clackwell> and more flexible, too!
[10:19:53] <EExtasEE> java is cool and flexible
[10:19:55] <heanol> it would be nice if you could reference methods without having to resort to reflection
[10:19:57] <roots_> another thing that might jump in the way is security
[10:20:06] <heanol> but i guess that would mean pointers.. :)
[10:20:11] <Clackwell> yeah, more security for java
[10:20:11] <roots_> check SecurityManager, AccessController
[10:20:27] * Clackwell climbs back onboard
[10:20:27] <roots_> but URLClassLoader is about the only one you need for standard stuff
[10:20:48] <roots_> at least with the class parent delegation model
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[10:24:35] <roots_> i mean you dont want to deal with exporting a limited classpath, deal with dependencies in a sophisticated manner ?
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[10:38:16] <joefso3> Hello. Why would someone use c instead of java?
[10:38:54] <cybereal> joefso3: Don't you know the difference?
[10:41:05] <cybereal> joefso3: they are entirely different development platforms conceptually; C is a cross-platform abstraction to assembler code, Java is a byte-code compiled interpreted cross-platform system.  Writing an application in C usually results in native code wihle java never results in native code (with the exception of JNI and, as some may point out, the JIT compilers while executing)
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[10:41:17] <EExtasEE> joefso3 , mainly because of hardware problems and C granularity which is better than Java's.Also C is a little bit faster than JAVA
[10:41:23] <roots_> JIT compiler ?
[10:41:33] <roots_> we have hotspot, JIT as yesterday (as is C)
[10:42:00] <roots_> c is not faster than java
[10:42:11] <EExtasEE> ?
[10:42:15] <roots_> using dynamic optimization like hotspot has a far greater potential anyhow
[10:42:16] <cybereal> roots_: Uh, you don't know what JIT means then
[10:42:30] <cybereal> It just means "Just In Time"
[10:42:39] <cybereal> hotspot is just a new way to do it
[10:42:42] <cybereal> "new"
[10:42:44] <cybereal> it's not really all that new
[10:42:50] <TTT> roots_: hotspot AFAIK is sun's fancy JIT implementation :)
[10:43:07] <TTT> anyway, GCJ compiles java into native code
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[10:43:19] <TTT> not that it is any faster
[10:43:19] <roots_> god beware
[10:43:24] <roots_> of course not
[10:43:43] <roots_> static optimization has to make overall assumptions or be fed with command line switches about the platform to optimize for
[10:43:46] <TTT> roots_: it did load faster last time I tried
[10:44:16] <Nurbs> potential means vaporware ;)
[10:44:26] <cybereal> Fact of the matter is, code written in C has the opportunity to be faster than code written in Java.  However, there is never any guarantee either way.  It all depends on the programmer :)
[10:44:34] <TTT> roots_: in theory, you can make a 'profileable' version of executable, run it for some time, then use statistics you gathered to make a static executable with all the great optimizations
[10:44:51] <TTT> roots_: Intel64 meced/itanium mostly failed because of that theory
[10:47:38] <TTT> too bad sun's java is not Open-Source, i think it should be an interesting experience to mess around with JIT to gain some performance
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[10:52:56] <roots_> intel's VLIW could indeed profit from a profiling
[10:53:17] <roots_> but there main profit is already achieved by compilers producing adequate assembler
[10:53:34] <TTT> roots_: too bad after all that spent money and resources they did not produce a compiler that could generate good VLIW code
[10:53:40] <Clackwell> interesting problem is to find out wether you gathered profiling data of a typical use case or not.
[10:53:49] <roots_> cybereal: code written in c also that potential, there is really no difference
[10:54:07] <TTT> IA64 VLIW is basically offloading of brach prediction and all those tricks from CPU to compiler
[10:54:10] <roots_> Clackwell: i prefer _THE_ usecase, not typical, thats why the simple assumptions of hot spot make sense
[10:54:30] <TTT> it was slow as hell because compilers weren't able to branch predict and parallelize well
[10:54:34] <roots_> compilers were yesterday, today is intermediate languages
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[10:55:14] <roots_> dot.net is the same as java in that respect. its just a trend and while we are at it we have managed heaps, pointer safety and all that, this has happened already. c is yesterday
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[10:56:07] <Clackwell> roots_: i am wondering if it would be useful to gather profiling data beyond the lifetime of a process. i seem to recall fx!32 or so, which transformed (and stored as an executable) intel/win32 apps to alpha/win32 on the fly, after gathering profiling data.
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[10:56:18] <roots_> and VLIW or whatever else we have on the backend side doesnt affect anything working with the intermediate code
[10:56:48] <Clackwell> i seem to recall that .net does something to that extent. or was that caching of previously generated binaries?
[10:56:57] <roots_> Clackwell: eg look at the classic hotspot client ... it compiles methods with an excution count > threshold to native code
[10:56:59] <Clackwell> a role model for java?
[10:57:16] <roots_> that works out pretty good
[10:57:27] <bowyakka> Clackwell, dontnet has support for ahead of time binaries which are basically fat .net bins
[10:57:39] <roots_> only rarely you have people working around that unknowingly. eg having a method that is called few times with a lengthy loop
[10:57:56] <roots_> yeah its dot.net take on hotspot
[10:58:05] <roots_> but it wouldnt surprise me if they throw it overboard :)
[10:58:30] <bowyakka> Clackwell, interestingly its seldom used at present since it actually often performs slower than doing the work in JIT ...
[10:59:00] <Clackwell> bowyakka: you mean the end result (perceived performance) is worse?
[10:59:11] <Clackwell> +often
[10:59:14] <roots_> either way, the exposed intermediate language hides all that from the programmer
[10:59:34] <Clackwell> roots_: yeah, the platform can decide to do any of that all by itself, i guess.
[10:59:42] <bowyakka> Clackwell, benchmarked performance has been shown to be worse in quite a few cases
[11:00:02] <roots_> c is just yesterday
[11:00:25] <Clackwell> bowyakka: i see.
[11:00:31] <roots_> i still feel more comfortable in c than in java because of my c past
[11:00:41] <roots_> but certainly i am more productive in java or c#
[11:00:44] <Clackwell> roots_: our rdbms, vm, replication server, etc. are all written in c. ;)
[11:01:16] <Clackwell> fortunately "core engineering" takes care of developing those.
[11:01:44] <TTT> heh, too bad Alpha died. AFAIK It had best from both worlds- compiler hints on how to execute the code + run-time optimizations
[11:01:44] <roots_> most java programmers have a c past anyhow
[11:02:02] <roots_> alpha was mips inspired for the most part
[11:02:11] <roots_> at least i read that in hennessy/patterson
[11:03:29] <bowyakka> Clackwell, i think its more down to the fact that the JIT can take advantage of the actual machine it is running on,and can internally experiment with pushing arround small optimisations, whereas the AOT (which is really second level compiling) forces the optimisations to be generic so that the fat binary can use them across all similer processors. I am sure if the AOT support was more tunable (like most c compilers) then identical or better perofmance
[11:03:29] <bowyakka>  could be acheived
[11:03:44] <bowyakka> funny how that split to two messages ...
[11:05:05] <Clackwell> bowyakka: oh yeah, specific platform optimizations on the fly are also an important factor to consider with java/.net and co.
[11:06:31] <bowyakka> Clackwell, that said i wonder why we dont offer support for writing jitted code to disk, so if we have just native compiled and optimised the code region, why dont we flush that to disk as sortof long term caching, that would rock with desktop java apps
[11:07:07] <roots_> no it wouldnt
[11:07:30] <Clackwell> bowyakka: <nod> i assumed that .net does that already. i always wondered why sun didn't do that with java. or at least keep some profiling information around.
[11:07:45] <roots_> thats not the bottleneck
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[11:08:30] <bowyakka> roots_, why not, i spend all the time jitting 5% of eclipse during this run, then i close eclipse and perform exactly the same work again ? why ?
[11:08:36] <Clackwell> roots_: it's more for knowing "ahead of time" which parts should probably be jitted (again). it's just an additional bit of information to consider.
[11:08:38] <TTT> i think keeping profiling information on disk would be useful
[11:09:04] <bowyakka> i joined this argument late so i missed the inital point
[11:09:42] <TTT> bowyakka: oh we're just discussing the universal question of Languages, Compilerse and Programming
[11:10:01] <roots_> run with that and watch it
[11:10:01] <bowyakka> ah i c
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[11:10:33] <TTT> too bad the answer aint 42
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[11:14:34] <bowyakka> Also minor discover of mine (just now) is that the ms .net runtime jits all its code outright whereas we only jit hotspots (by default)
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[11:16:11] <Clackwell> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/cpguide/html/cpconjitcompilation.asp
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[11:17:02] <Clackwell> seems to disagree, but it is contradictory in itself, claiming complete compilation in the first paragraph, then claiming otherwise in the next paragraph.
[11:17:46] <bowyakka> hummm I wonder what the approach is that is taken by the parrott vm
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[11:43:25] <ricky_clarkson> cheeser: Request for enhancement: Move Javabot to Derby or HSQLDB for ease of use.
[11:48:10] <ricky_clarkson> ~source
[11:48:11] <javabot> My subversion repository can be found at http://www.cheeseronline.org/svn/repos/javabot
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[11:53:52] <hashman> morning ppl, http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/java5beta/ <= IBM have released a JDK 5 SDK
[11:54:17] <roots_> great, i know where not to go then :)
[11:54:25] <ricky_clarkson> Why did they do that?
[11:54:54] <roots_> ibm only sells low-quality engineers to customers, so they put their better ones on nonsense projects
[11:55:29] <ricky_clarkson> Yeah, I noticed (my low-quality friend did a year working for IBM).
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[12:02:47] <ricky_clarkson> How much data can you get on a DVD?
[12:03:21] <hashman> 4,7Gb I think
[12:05:08] * ricky_clarkson has a picture where he looks a bit too much like Ringo Starr.
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[12:05:52] <headhunter> hi
[12:06:25] <headhunter> i'm using 3.1 and the sun jdk 1.4, as well as jogl. compiling a simple hello opengl project goes fast, but starting the (simple) prog takes 10 secs at least. i think this is because of some hotspot/jit compiling. is there any chance to disable it?
[12:06:31] <headhunter> *eclipse 3.1
[12:07:02] <ricky_clarkson> ~tell headhunter about profiler
[12:07:03] <javabot> headhunter, profiler is a tool to find performance bottlenecks.  jmp and ejp are gratis; optimizeit, jprofiler and jprobe cost money.  Some more are listed here: http://javafaq.mine.nu/lookup?169 .
[12:07:08] <ricky_clarkson> ~tell headhunter about jvm options
[12:07:09] <javabot> headhunter, jvm options is http://blogs.sun.com/roller/resources/watt/jvm-options-list.html
[12:07:29] <roots_> headhunter: run your java with it
[12:07:33] <headhunter> a profiler for a 100 line program.. don't think so ;)
[12:07:35] <headhunter> k, i'll run it
[12:07:40] <roots_> also  -verbose:gc
[12:07:43] <roots_> sorry
[12:08:11] <roots_> to get a first impression
[12:08:23] <headhunter> let's see if i can compile my program without eclipse :p
[12:08:31] <headhunter> wait.. i can set the flags in eclipse!
[12:09:04] <ricky_clarkson> Hey, maybe other people write programs in it!
[12:10:05] <headhunter> roots_: ok, now the compiler spams me with packages being loaded. what does this tell me?
[12:11:03] <Clackwell> headhunter: you may be notorious
[12:11:07] <Clackwell> ~notorious
[12:11:08] <javabot> Clackwell, I have no idea what notorious is.
[12:11:11] <Clackwell> hi ricky
[12:11:13] <Clackwell> NOTORIOUS "Programmers are notoriously bad at guessing where performance problems lie." (http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-11-2000/jw-1117-performance_p.html)
[12:11:19] <ricky_clarkson> Guten Tag, Clackwell.
[12:11:27] <roots_> if it loads a gazillion classes (not packages) that takes time
[12:11:57] <headhunter> i'm new to java, but though i see no reason to spend 10 seconds+ loading on 100 loc - it's a simple hello world example.
[12:12:09] <Clackwell> i think 5 seconds of the delay are due to the spaghetti monster returning to earth.
[12:12:13] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: Do programs that don't use jogl take 10 secondds to start?
[12:12:23] <ricky_clarkson> E.g., a simple hello world.
[12:12:31] <headhunter> they are faster.
[12:12:42] <ricky_clarkson> Do OpenGL programs that don't use Java take 10 seconds to start?
[12:13:26] <headhunter> no
[12:13:28] <ricky_clarkson> Then either ogl is the source of your worries, or you are looking at the combined 'startup' times of OpenGL apps and Java apps on your system, untuned.
[12:13:36] <ricky_clarkson> Sorry, s/ogl/jogl/
[12:13:37] <headhunter> it's 100% jogl related. a simple hello java is done in about 1-2 secs.
[12:14:23] <ricky_clarkson> So what makes you think it's related to hotspot/jit compiling?
[12:14:50] <ricky_clarkson> Oh, btw, YOU might have 100 loc, but jogl has more, so profiling *is* a possibility.
[12:14:51] <Clackwell> headhunter: loading 10 thousand classes < loading 10 million classes
[12:15:20] <headhunter> ricky_clarkson: don't konw, as i wrote i just *think* this is the problem.
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[12:15:54] <Clackwell> headhunter: number of classes of API X != number of classes of API Y
[12:16:39] <headhunter> well, if i  have to profile jogl for a simple hello world, then i don't think it is suited for me.
[12:17:37] <Clackwell> headhunter: if you expect every software to be perfect and not have issues here and there (including your OS, its drivers, the JVM, JOGL, etc. pp.) working with computers will be very frustrating for you.
[12:17:48] <roots_> i worked with jogl
[12:17:49] <Clackwell> headhunter: consider not to be so negative about analysing problems.
[12:17:55] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: Maybe you should find out what the problem is and then decide.
[12:17:58] <roots_> this is not always the case
[12:18:19] <headhunter> Clackwell: isn't it frustrating ;)
[12:18:19] <Clackwell> ricky_clarkson: you have such a wonderful way with words.
[12:18:32] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: It might be something you missed in docs, or you might be using an old version, or you might have a 486, etc.
[12:19:15] <headhunter> ricky_clarkson: problems with jogl: 1) very few documentation 2) very slow to start. both points will decrease productivity so much that i could do the same program in c++ with maybe twice the speed.
[12:19:32] <ricky_clarkson> Clackwell: I tried stand-up comedy but they told me to sit down.
[12:19:38] <Clackwell> headhunter: consider providing a test case.
[12:19:52] <Clackwell> ricky_clarkson: <groan>
[12:19:56] <headhunter> which testcase could be simpler than a red triangle in a centered window?
[12:19:57] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: We're not stopping you from using C++, just suggesting that a bit of investigation might help.
[12:20:16] <ricky_clarkson> Provide a test case and we'll see if you did anything obviously wrong.
[12:20:31] <ricky_clarkson> E.g., setVerySlowAntialiasingMode(SLOWEST)
[12:20:38] <Clackwell> headhunter: you are still emitting those negative vibes. stop ass-u-ming.
[12:20:40] <headhunter> i know. i want to try out java and i'm willing to put some time in it. but slow hello worlds are a really show stopper for me.
[12:20:59] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: Java works fine for me, but admittedly I don't use OpenGL.
[12:21:00] <headhunter> i can give you the source to the program if you want to
[12:21:07] <ricky_clarkson> ~tell headhunter about pastebin
[12:21:08] <javabot> headhunter, Paste your code, preferably a test case, any errors, and any other relevant information into the pastebin and tell us the URL: http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin
[12:21:16] <Clackwell> "it cannot possibly my code, my computer or anything i could fix. i cannot analyze this. i am only here to vent and not to analyze or pick up tips."
[12:21:34] <ricky_clarkson> I wouldn't mind trying jogl myself anyway, now that I seem to have a reasonable graphics card.
[12:21:55] <Clackwell> headhunter: prepare a package with everything required, including compile code, i guess.
[12:22:06] <Clackwell> (not everyone has jogl on their computers)
[12:22:14] <Clackwell> windows here, btw
[12:22:22] <ricky_clarkson> Clackwell: Blimey, you're a bit idealistic.
[12:23:09] <Drone> View headhunter's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8308
[12:23:19] <headhunter> http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8308
[12:23:40] <ricky_clarkson> What do I need, jogl-natives-win32.jar and jogl.jar ?
[12:24:02] <headhunter> jup
[12:24:11] <headhunter> or jogl-natives-linux.jar or something like that
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[12:24:24] <headhunter> i don't know about compile packages, i'm using ecplise.
[12:24:36] <ricky_clarkson> $ uname
[12:24:37] <Clackwell> headhunter: zip archive
[12:24:37] <ricky_clarkson> CYGWIN_NT-5.1
[12:25:20] <Clackwell> a here's-everything-you-need-to-make-it-easy-for-you-because-you-are-trying-to-analyse-my-problem-afterall package/archive
[12:25:32] <headhunter> https://jogl.dev.java.net/files/documents/27/17102/jogl.jar -> to jre/lib/ext folder                             https://jogl.dev.java.net/files/documents/27/17107/jogl-natives-win32.jar or https://jogl.dev.java.net/files/documents/27/17103/jogl-natives-linux.jar to jre/lib/i386 folder
[12:25:49] <Drone> That URL gave the following error: java.net.ProtocolException, Server redirected too many  times (20)
[12:27:36] <headhunter> do these links help you to compile the source?
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[12:29:13] * ricky_clarkson compiled it.
[12:29:42] <headhunter> nice :)
[12:30:40] <headhunter> can you confirm the long loading times?
[12:30:42] <ricky_clarkson> no jogl in java.library.path
[12:31:04] <headhunter> what java vm are you using?
[12:31:10] <ricky_clarkson> Sun 1.5.
[12:31:28] <headhunter> i have /opt/sun-jre and /opt/sun-jdk .. don't copy it in the first one, there's a jre folder in the sun-jdk folder which is the right one.
[12:31:38] <headhunter> took me some time to figure this out too..
[12:32:04] <ricky_clarkson> Why would I need to put it in there?
[12:32:24] <headhunter> because this way it works.. at least for me.
[12:33:10] <Clackwell> 3 seconds until a window appears, and a dialog notifying me about this computer not quite being up to the task.
[12:33:11] <ricky_clarkson> I like the way FAQ is not a link.
[12:33:23] <Clackwell> Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.4.2_04-b05)
[12:33:59] <headhunter> Clackwell: you can't run the program?
[12:34:24] <roots_> you can use classpath and -Djava.library.path for jogl just fine
[12:34:33] <roots_> no need to copy stuff into the jdk folger
[12:34:35] <roots_> folder
[12:34:38] <headhunter> nice
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[12:35:16] <ricky_clarkson> roots_: So what should I do?
[12:35:56] <doc|work> anyone ever gotten java.sql.SQLException: ERROR:  Attribute "password" not found when conn = DriverManager.getConnection(url,dbuname,dbupass);
[12:36:39] <headhunter> now the prog starts way faster.. i have just removed all obsolete imports.
[12:36:45] <headhunter> < 7 secs i guess
[12:36:58] <ricky_clarkson> Hahahahahaha.
[12:36:58] <headhunter> but shouldn't java get rid of unneeded imports by itself?
[12:37:06] <ricky_clarkson> Imports are purely compile time.
[12:37:14] <headhunter> even eclipse wails about them being useless.
[12:37:26] <roots_> search paths for native libs
[12:37:37] <roots_> headhunter: they dont end up in the .class files like ricky said
[12:37:50] <headhunter> but they greatly increase startup time.
[12:37:53] <roots_> its like unneeded comments, no overhead except clutter of source files
[12:37:54] <ricky_clarkson> roots_: -Djava.library.path=jogl-natives-thingy.jar
[12:37:56] <roots_> headhunter: no they don't
[12:38:05] <headhunter> they do.
[12:38:06] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: You must be including compilation time in your 'startup time'.
[12:38:14] <roots_> headhunter: no they dont
[12:38:21] <Clackwell> ricky_clarkson: i have to retrieve the .dll files from that natives .jar
[12:38:28] <roots_> ricky_clarkson: -Djava.library.path=/opt/lib  when jogl.so is in opt-lib
[12:38:32] <headhunter> ok, you know java, i don't so you must be right. though i don't see exactly why right now.
[12:38:40] <Clackwell> headhunter: put them back in again, compile again. run again.
[12:38:51] <roots_> headhunter: classes are loaded dynamically when they are first accessed
[12:38:55] <Clackwell> there is always room for PEBKAC :)
[12:38:56] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: Tell me the difference between compiling and running.
[12:39:11] <roots_> no matter how many imports you have, classes are loaded when they are actually needed, and that is not depending on the imports
[12:39:33] <ricky_clarkson> Imports are purely compile-time to allow you not to have fully qualified class names.
[12:39:35] <Clackwell> you can simply test the imports thing, just compile the generated .class files.
[12:39:52] <Clackwell> erh, compare
[12:39:55] <ricky_clarkson> Clackwell: s/compile/compare/ ?
[12:40:04] <ricky_clarkson> Ah.
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[12:40:23] * ricky_clarkson has a bit of keyboard->IRC client lag, known as the Atlantic.
[12:40:39] <Clackwell> ze big bloo
[12:42:34] <roots_> the big pond
[12:43:29] * ricky_clarkson refers to the woman who looked at the Pacific and said "I thought it would be bigger".
[12:43:51] <roots_> maybe she looked at something else
[12:44:35] <headhunter> ok, i try it out l8er. thanks for your help :)
[12:45:53] <Clackwell> co-worker just pulled the vga connector of a 15" lc display out - the lcd started to emit smoke...
[12:45:56] <Clackwell> wtf?
[12:46:33] <roots_> greetings from aldi
[12:46:39] <Clackwell> no way :)
[12:46:49] <Clackwell> sanyo
[12:46:59] <roots_> i work on a 1024x768 celeron notebook here
[12:47:08] <roots_> gives me more time to irc
[12:47:14] <Clackwell> roots_: yeah, but you deserve no better.
[12:47:34] <roots_> i deserve 1024x480
[12:47:42] <roots_> talking cinemascope
[12:47:56] <Clackwell> you want less? that can certainly be arranged :)
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[12:51:07] <roots_> you are too kind
[12:54:26] <ricky_clarkson> I have 2560 by an average of 912.
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[13:01:19] * Nurbs works on 1600x1200 notebook :o)
[13:01:42] <Nurbs> I'd really love to see the 2048x1536 version, though.
[13:02:42] <ricky_clarkson> I'm not a high resolution fan.
[13:03:03] * Nurbs definitely is ;)
[13:03:05] <ricky_clarkson> I sometimes switch to 640x480 to play an online pool game that annoyingly won't maximise properly.
[13:03:38] <ricky_clarkson> roots_: funkysnooker.com launched as fully playable last night.
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[13:03:48] <ricky_clarkson> [and that version resizes well]
[13:04:09] <roots_> cool
[13:04:15] <ricky_clarkson> roots_: I watched Ken Doherty lose.
[13:04:20] <roots_> yeah
[13:04:22] <roots_> irish boy
[13:04:27] <ricky_clarkson> Both were Irish.
[13:04:36] <roots_> swail is irish too, but not cathlic
[13:04:38] <ricky_clarkson> Well, from the island that is Ireland.
[13:04:55] <ricky_clarkson> Go, teh Prostitutes!
[13:04:58] <ricky_clarkson> Er, Protestants.
[13:05:04] <roots_> from the british island referred to as ireland quite often
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[13:05:40] <ricky_clarkson> roots_: Did you see anything of the city it's being played in?
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[13:05:59] <roots_> you mean the grand prix ?
[13:06:02] <ricky_clarkson> Yep.
[13:06:11] <roots_> i dont even where it is staged
[13:06:14] <ricky_clarkson> Preston.
[13:06:18] <ricky_clarkson> My home town.
[13:06:27] <roots_> ah right, i remember
[13:06:41] <ricky_clarkson> I've never been along though.  Wonder how much the tickets are.
[13:06:44] <roots_> they didnt show any homeless, slums, junkies, sleazy street corners...
[13:06:46] <roots_> none of that
[13:07:10] <ricky_clarkson> roots_: There's a Winkley Square in Preston..
[13:08:13] <ricky_clarkson> Preston's main export seems to be glum people atm, because British Aerospace had massive factories there which ave all but closed.
[13:12:24] <roots_> is BA part of airbus ?
[13:12:59] <roots_> airbus has a lot of job openings actually
[13:13:09] <roots_> i wouldnt mind working for them
[13:13:41] <roots_> but eventually all brain work will be done in india
[13:14:43] <ricky_clarkson> Dunno.
[13:15:19] <roots_> the trend will reverse when we have become cheaper than them
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[13:32:03] <DaDave> does anyone how to replace a certain Element with another Element in dom4j?
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[13:33:51] <Vanuatoo> Does anyone use solaris x86?
[13:34:18] <ricky_clarkson> Somebody does.
[13:35:04] <ricky_clarkson> Can anybody find me.. somebody to love.
[13:35:07] <Vanuatoo> I've got a problem. My locale is en_US.UTF-8. Solaris sticks a little window to every window
[13:35:20] <Vanuatoo> containig locales to choose a language
[13:35:39] <Vanuatoo> first question: is it possible to remove that little window from java apps?
[13:35:48] <ricky_clarkson> Is that window in non-Java apps too?
[13:35:54] <Vanuatoo> no
[13:36:02] <Vanuatoo> I disabled it in gtk2 apps
[13:36:10] <ricky_clarkson> How?
[13:36:26] <Vanuatoo> there is a little hack in gconf
[13:36:44] <Vanuatoo> though I was not able to remove it from My WindowMaker windows
[13:36:51] <ricky_clarkson> Sounds like something to ask Sun about.
[13:36:51] <ricky_clarkson> Or google.
[13:36:53] <Vanuatoo> and java windows also
[13:37:03] <Vanuatoo> I already did many times
[13:37:23] <Vanuatoo> I killed every process that starts with htt
[13:37:35] <Vanuatoo> but that little window still appears
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[13:38:08] <ricky_clarkson> Contact your OS vendor.
[13:38:22] <Vanuatoo> The real problem with that is that every popup dialog is displayed with a delay
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[13:38:49] <Vanuatoo> If you move that window it redraws instantly, but if not it displayes after 5 seconds
[13:39:04] <Vanuatoo> I searched bugzilla but did not find anything usefull
[13:39:23] <ricky_clarkson> Did you report a bug?
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[13:41:20] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: I finally ran your code, it starts in less than a second.
[13:41:39] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: I think you should switch to C++ really quickly.
[13:41:57] <Vanuatoo> I'm going to report it
[13:42:33] <headhunter> lol
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[13:42:42] <headhunter> what's the trick? 5ghz ;) ?
[13:42:47] <ricky_clarkson> 1.8
[13:43:46] <ricky_clarkson> It's annoying that javac and java don't let you choose which of : and ; you want.
[13:43:55] <ricky_clarkson> That means that in Cygwin you need '' around the classpath.
[13:44:08] <ricky_clarkson> java -classpath 'jogl.jar;.' Main
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[13:45:56] <roots_>  or " "
[13:46:02] <roots_> ' are recommended though
[13:46:16] <ricky_clarkson> Yeah, I always use '' unless I've a reason not to.
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[13:46:42] <roots_> makes a diff with \ too
[13:46:52] <ricky_clarkson> roots_: What?
[13:47:22] <roots_> sometimes only though for extra confusion
[13:47:24] <roots_> echo '\\' "\\"
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[13:57:24] <joefso3> SOmeone who doesn't know how to program, want's to learn java. The issie is, she needs to have a project with a problem, context and solution. The time to do this can varey from 3 to 5 months.
[13:58:27] <jwormy> joefso3, well find something you are interested in
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[13:59:57] <TTT> hi, is it possible to specify decimal separator to be used when connecting to Oracle via JDBC? I tried RTFM about the connection properties, but saw nothing about localisation there.
[14:00:52] <joefso3> *G*, keywords: java, programming, newbie, Gnu/linux, girls, alcohol, marihuana (etc..)
[14:00:53] <noa> TTT: you need to call 'alter session...' with a JDBC execute()
[14:00:56] <joefso3> :P
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[14:01:25] <noa> TTT, at least that's what I do. And I expermiented quite a lot with connection propertis without any luck
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[14:01:37] <TTT> noa: darn, that means i need to mess up my connection pool
[14:01:52] <TTT> noa: darn JDBC takes 'default' locale
[14:01:58] <Clackwell> TTT: why do you need to change that? what for?
[14:02:15] <TTT> i tried setting default locale to from lt_LT to en_US, and then connecting, then it works
[14:02:40] <TTT> Clackwell: i want to_numbert to work with '.' and not with ','
[14:03:01] <Clackwell> TTT: so you are using string concatenation?
[14:03:17] <Clackwell> TTT: or why would that be relevant? you are not using PreparedStatement?
[14:03:23] <TTT> Clackwell: no, i'm not
[14:03:25] <TTT> long story
[14:03:29] <Clackwell> TTT: sucks to be you :)
[14:03:32] <Clackwell> serves you right
[14:03:36] <Clackwell> you get what you deserve
[14:03:40] <Clackwell> and so on and so forth :)
[14:03:59] <cHaoTiCa> :)
[14:04:09] <roots_> why does it make a difference ? oracle driver doing some toString again ? :)
[14:04:21] <TTT> Clackwell: darn, i'm using prepared statements, but there are places where i need to convert string=>number and back in oracle-side
[14:04:26] <TTT> and it gets messed up
[14:04:26] <joefso3> no serieus what projects would you guys advise for startes?
[14:04:35] <roots_> Clackwell: there was a similar scenario in which oracle did a toString inside a setObject on a prep-stmt
[14:05:26] <roots_> TTT: could you use NumberFormat.getInstance(locale) ?
[14:05:34] <TTT> roots_: strangely, it seems that it didn't, it used some 200 lines of code to convert bigdecimal=> number, and it was buggy
[14:05:37] <Clackwell> roots_: yeah i recall that from a few weeks or so ago in here. fixed in a more recent jdbc driver version as the respective person said.
[14:05:48] <Clackwell> ah, there goes
[14:05:51] <cHaoTiCa> joe....heh.  for a first or second program, i'd suggest the number guessing game :)
[14:06:02] <TTT> Clackwell: that respective version was me
[14:06:21] <TTT> roots_: i do the conversion oracle-server-side
[14:06:26] <Clackwell> cHaoTiCa: "press return to exit this program." program!
[14:06:32] <roots_> using java based stored procedures ?
[14:06:32] <cHaoTiCa> :)
[14:06:35] <TTT> roots_: bot for some reason, client-side locale does have an effect on that
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[14:06:48] <TTT> roots_: no, using plain sql queries
[14:07:01] <Clackwell> TTT: so use the default format in your client application?
[14:07:14] <Clackwell> platform default formats, that is
[14:07:50] <TTT> i don't want to mess up locale for entire application, i just want oracle JDBC to use some specific locale
[14:08:21] <TTT> noa: ok, i'll take your advice and mess up connection pool to execute that
[14:08:30] <TTT> thanks for help
[14:09:18] <ricky_clarkson> joefso3: A game where the object is to hit moving things that appear on the screen, like Zombies on the Amiga or that silly Ducks game on the SNES.
[14:09:41] <noa> TTT, good luck :)
[14:10:03] * TTT digs into apache DBCP
[14:10:56] <Clackwell> TTT: you are not messing up the locale for the entire application. you are using the locale, like your application does and like the jdbc driver does.
[14:12:20] * ricky_clarkson comes up with a new antipattern: listener leak.
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[14:12:41] <bowyakka> argghhh debian is drving me up the wall
[14:12:46] <cHaoTiCa> :)
[14:13:01] <joefso3> ricky_clarkson: so 3 to 5 months time to learn+program+teacher could be that game you described?
[14:13:02] <cHaoTiCa> yeah, it can do that :)
[14:13:06] <TTT> bowyakka: what's wrong?
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[14:13:21] <ricky_clarkson> joefso3: Or less.  It depends how much imagination is used.
[14:13:34] <cHaoTiCa> and how much intelligence :)
[14:13:56] <ricky_clarkson> joefso3: I could rig up a game like that in a few minutes, but it wouldn't support multiple levels, high score tables, good graphics, multiplayer over a network, etc.
[14:13:58] <TTT> Clackwell: all JDBC does with that locale is that it sends the client locale to oracle server, and server acts accordingly, and i hate that
[14:14:13] <joefso3> awesome
[14:14:20] <TTT> bowyakka: what problems do you have with debian?
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[14:14:44] <ricky_clarkson> joefso3: If it was my students, I'd give them some skeleton code to start with.
[14:15:08] <bowyakka> why cant i re-install a pacakge
[14:15:17] <bowyakka> i cannot get into debains config for the pacakge
[14:15:33] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: Why ask here?
[14:15:43] <bowyakka> im not asking im bitchin :)
[14:15:45] <ricky_clarkson> But anyway, dpkg-reconfigure thepackagename
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[14:16:59] <Clackwell> TTT: so, client application, jdbc and server all use the same locale?
[14:17:27] <bowyakka> ok so where does the pacakge hide
[14:17:56] <joefso3> hmm, some people are experienced with computers, even os such like Gnu/Linux / m$ / beos. They seem to talk alot about c when it's about those operating systems, they talk about c++ when there thinking of mozilla-firefox for example. Is java the langue to start with? Even when they(including me) have interests in such programs/ operating systems?
[14:18:14] <bowyakka> wha ?!
[14:18:18] <joefso3> What's your proffesional opinion about these cases.
[14:18:25] <Zenox> i get so annoyed, so many ppl dont know anything about java except for applets... anyone know of a picture with the different J2SE components (like AWT, Swing, Applets, JavaBeans and so on)?
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[14:19:09] <bowyakka> i get irritated when people download java --> run swing --> look at memory useage --> state "java is the suck"
[14:19:50] <joefso3> man some people think of java as anal sex, even if it works on all genders doesn't mean it's good.
[14:19:50] <bowyakka> (lol my irc client wont let me type teh directly)
[14:20:09] <Clackwell> bowyakka: you are teh suckz? :)
[14:20:31] <bowyakka> my client reufeses to write elite speech properly how cool is that
[14:21:02] <bowyakka> Clackwell, errr no
[14:21:10] <Clackwell> bowyakka: cool thing. but it should disconnect you when using leetspeak :)
[14:21:22] <Zenox> uhm yea ;) but do u know of any jpg/gif with the components drawn on it? have seen one before
[14:21:35] <TTT> Clackwell: no, client application uses lt_LT, server uses en_US, so i want to use en_US in my sql statements and i cannot because oracle is SMART and does localisation based on client-side locale
[14:21:57] <bowyakka> lol it would be better if it booted people from the channel on elite speech
[14:22:00] <Clackwell> ~npe
[14:22:00] <javabot> Clackwell, npe is http://www.tmorris.net/pubs/npe/ or alternatively http://lavender.cime.net/~ricky/java-errors/NullPointerException.html
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[14:22:17] <TTT> anyway, noa, 1 inheritance, 1 method overload and 1 ALTER SESSION SET NLS_NUMERIC_CHARACTERS='.,' statement later, i got everything going, thanks for your help
[14:23:58] <noa> heh :) If anyone decides to re-implement an oracle jdbc driver that does the Right Thing^tm with respect to locale I would be very happy
[14:24:39] <TTT> joefso3: i think java is quite a good language to start with. It is definitely easier than C++, and it doesn't allow you to shoot yourself in your foot as much as C does
[14:24:47] <Clackwell> let's hope that won't blow up with the next jdbc driver release :)
[14:25:02] <TTT> Clackwell: i didn't override JDBC driver, i did that with apache DBCP
[14:25:16] <bowyakka> *shugs* at the end of the day its only code whatever language
[14:26:08] <noa> Clackwell, oracle tend to be absurdly strange-behaviour-compatible with previous releases
[14:26:45] <noa> and i've been around from oracle 7 up to oracle 10
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[14:27:11] <TTT> my condolences, i'm using oracle instead of postgres because customer demanded that, and I hate every minute of it
[14:28:01] * noa works with a real estate system that has 75% functionality in PL/SQL stored procedures
[14:28:23] <TTT> do you at least have any competent DBAs there?
[14:28:57] <noa> yup
[14:29:40] <noa> if you would like to be irreplacible on your job you should learn oracle really well
[14:29:56] <bowyakka> damnit debian is like running up hills backwards
[14:30:12] <noa> (or just be a kickass programmer) *smile*
[14:30:54] <jwormy> argh
[14:31:02] <TTT> i'm a good programmer, but i'd rather be learning tapestry/hybernate/something else than how to work around all the quirks in oracle that seem to be made so that people MUST hire oracle-DBAs and pay them way too much money
[14:31:08] <jwormy> we hired a programmer that was 2x my age and had a bucnh of oracle certs..
[14:31:12] <jwormy> thinking he must be a smart guy..
[14:31:20] <cHaoTiCa> more like tumbling uphill, last i played with it :)
[14:31:23] <jwormy> anyways i had him rid of last week.
[14:31:45] <noa> age is often a drawback in this business
[14:32:14] <jwormy> noa, i don't think he was comfortable working for a 21 year old guy.
[14:33:05] <jwormy> noa, eh like he tried to attack my code saying 'it doesn't work' and then he'd finally show me the code and he was giving an invalid file path....
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[14:33:16] <cHaoTiCa> heh
[14:33:44] <jwormy> oh but he would be like 'your code is broken, i've been trying for hours and it will not work'
[14:33:55] <noa> that's funny
[14:34:30] <jwormy> and then i look at his code and i am like 'you do understand that you specifying an incorrect filename is not my fault, right?'
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[14:36:37] <TTT> heh, this is all funny and all, i've seen some older guys who can code well enough. But I haven't met any girl or woman who code well enough. 1/2 of my class in uni was female, but AFAIK noone is now working as a programmer
[14:36:47] <noa> jwormy, if he didn't find that one out instantly perhaps your error handling isn't flawless :P
[14:36:52] <ricky_clarkson> TTT: Shooting yourself in the foot is actually quite useful as a learning experience.
[14:37:17] <TTT> ricky_clarkson: heh, it is, but for beginners it can be too frustrating
[14:37:20] <roots_> the best programmers i have met are above 50
[14:37:26] <roots_> the best one i have met is above 60
[14:37:33] <noa> TTT, you might be right there. my partner codes ok but he is a man :)
[14:37:37] <roots_> he did the bitset in perl amongst other things
[14:37:49] <heanol> i've not met any programmer above 45 :<
[14:37:52] <heanol> or so
[14:37:55] <jwormy> noa, he was obviously a little stupid, he was trying to use @"//C:\" to access a non-remote filesystem
[14:38:00] <roots_> he is a high speed flawless hacker for c, perl, oracle, ciscos, anything
[14:38:23] <heanol> darn, im just a high speed flawed hacker :(
[14:38:31] <ricky_clarkson> roots_: What does he think of OOP etc.?
[14:38:54] <roots_> being his age you left religion behind
[14:38:59] <bowyakka> and i am just flawed
[14:39:07] <roots_> i dont think he would ever comment on such disucssions
[14:39:13] <roots_> eg "A kicks B's ass"
[14:39:17] <TTT> i had one lecturer in uni >60 years old, he was learning linux+java ~8 years ago. Most of other people there hadn't heard what linux or java is 8 years ago
[14:39:20] <bowyakka> some of the coolest people in computing are very old
[14:39:34] <ricky_clarkson> roots_: It is possible to have more sensible discussions on OOP
[14:39:41] <ricky_clarkson> OOP's merits and demertis.
[14:39:53] * ricky_clarkson steg a nwe kyebroad.
[14:39:59] <jwormy> the only female i have had experience with in the field wasnt' too bright.. she thought people who wrote javascript were just amazing.
[14:40:21] <ricky_clarkson> JavaScript is very good, as dynamic languages go, imo.
[14:40:33] <noa> exellent, green progress bar in junit...
[14:40:39] <bowyakka> i mean thinking about it Gosling is no spring chicken (no pun ment)
[14:40:51] <jwormy> ricky_clarkson, yes it is but i don't think people capable of writing javascript are just amazingly smart
[14:41:17] <bowyakka> jwormy, depends how you write it
[14:41:35] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: I write it backwards.
[14:41:37] <jwormy> ricky_clarkson, i mean there are smart ones out there but she was generalizing as anyone capable of writing a helloworld javascript was amazing.
[14:41:44] <roots_> i am average and i am a decent javascript hacker
[14:41:54] <jwormy> mmm ajax
[14:42:00] <roots_> so your point doesnt have any truth to it
[14:42:10] <ricky_clarkson> Mmm, javascript:alert("You suck");
[14:43:23] <EExtasEE> hihi
[14:43:55] <ricky_clarkson> ~camembertsmite EExtasEE
[14:43:55] <javabot> ricky_clarkson, I have no idea what camembertsmite EExtasEE is.
[14:43:59] <ricky_clarkson> Hmm.
[14:44:34] <EExtasEE> neither I do
[14:44:50] <ricky_clarkson> Speak like yoda you do.
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[14:45:01] <EExtasEE> camembertsmite
[14:45:10] <EExtasEE> cammbert : OK
[14:45:17] <EExtasEE> camembert : OK
[14:45:22] <EExtasEE> smite ??
[14:45:24] <ricky_clarkson> smite is to hit.
[14:45:51] <noa> joev, how do you get those catchy hostnames?
[14:46:02] <ricky_clarkson> noa: You pay money.
[14:46:05] <noa> oh
[14:46:24] <joev> http://freenode.net/pdpc_donations.shtml
[14:46:25] <ricky_clarkson> He's a sustaining supporter of Freenode, that's what his hostname means.
[14:46:39] <ricky_clarkson> There are other catchy hostnames you can have without paying.
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[14:51:48] <headhunter> doesn't java support default parameters like int foo (int x = 23) ?
[14:51:55] <ricky_clarkson> Nope.
[14:52:03] <ricky_clarkson> That's another reason to use C++, obviously.
[14:52:27] <joev> obviously.
[14:52:37] <headhunter> this sucks!
[14:52:59] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: What can you do with default parameters that you can't without?
[14:53:17] <headhunter> save lots of typing and make life easier for the user.
[14:53:44] <ricky_clarkson> The user won't care, because you can easily provide overloaded versions that delegate to each other.
[14:53:46] <roots_> it makes compile-time method resolution a bit more complicated
[14:53:54] <roots_> in combinatin with overloaded methods that is
[14:54:01] <ricky_clarkson> int foo(){ foo(23);} int foo(int x){}
[14:54:26] <roots_> also it is a source for exeptions (eg the init epxressions)
[14:54:38] <ricky_clarkson> In practice, if you want to do a lot of that kind of overloading, you're probably abusing the parameter system and should use OOP.
[14:54:41] <headhunter> ricky_clarkson: that's what i mean. it's duplicate writing.
[14:54:47] <roots_> overall the reasoning probably was that the feature isnt worth the effort
[14:54:51] <headhunter> are you seriously?
[14:55:09] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: It's not duplicate at all.
[14:55:15] <headhunter> even if it's bad, why not just provide it for some user to use.
[14:55:23] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: Because it's bad.
[14:55:29] <ricky_clarkson> Java also doesn't provide goto.
[14:55:30] <headhunter> there's no sense in a c++ vs. java discussion right now, i'm back to coding :)
[14:55:38] <roots_> plesae
[14:55:39] <roots_> please
[14:55:49] <ricky_clarkson> That kills it for me, I'm going back to Spectrum 48K BASIC.
[14:55:58] <ricky_clarkson> 10 PRINT "Haha"
[14:56:01] <ricky_clarkson> 20 GOTO 10
[14:56:26] <ricky_clarkson> I thought RANDOMIZE USR was odd, it seemed like a long way to type REBOOT.
[14:56:34] <ricky_clarkson> In fact it crashed the computer.
[14:57:12] <TTT> randomize usr is nice
[14:57:18] <TTT> i used to poke all the RAM to 0
[14:57:31] <ricky_clarkson> I did that on the Amiga.
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[14:58:01] <ricky_clarkson> I changed every instance of "Workbench" to "Benchwork" in RAM.  It worked until it found its own code and then did odd stuff.
[14:58:35] <teralaser> lol
[14:58:56] <roots_> but dijkstra recommened self modifying code
[14:59:23] <ricky_clarkson> Dijkstra spent all his time trying to get from A to B, and all he came up with was graphs.
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[14:59:39] <ricky_clarkson> I think he should have used a car.
[14:59:50] <headhunter> lol
[14:59:52] * teralaser made a 20 line boot virus for Commodore 128 and wondered why the magazine wouldnt publish it ?
[15:00:18] <ricky_clarkson> I made a TSR for DOS that would cycle the 256 colour palette after a certain amount of time.
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[15:00:36] <ricky_clarkson> Nice to confuse people who logged in to Windows 3.1 and wondered why things were odd.
[15:00:37] <headhunter> to all against default parameters: especially when following the RAII approach,  default parameters come in very handy.
[15:00:45] <ricky_clarkson> RATI?
[15:00:48] <cored> hi all
[15:00:49] <teralaser> oooh, a TSR !
[15:01:32] <ricky_clarkson> Someone else made a password sniffer, but I wasn't interested in that.
[15:01:36] <niakia`> 2's complement of 1011(binary) is 5 in decimal right ?
[15:02:28] <ricky_clarkson> niakia`: 0100-1, == 0011 = 3 I think.
[15:02:40] <ricky_clarkson> I probably should have added one instead of subtracted it, can't remember.
[15:02:50] <niakia`> u add 1
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[15:02:54] <headhunter> ricky_clarkson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Acquisition_Is_Initialization#
[15:02:58] <ricky_clarkson> 5 sounds reasonable then.
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[15:03:00] <headhunter> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Acquisition_Is_Initialization
[15:03:22] <roots_> thats a c++ idiom
[15:03:33] <roots_> related to exception safety, free'ing memory
[15:03:37] <headhunter> it's cool. who needs init or open functions?
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[15:03:53] <roots_> it has its downsides too
[15:03:57] <roots_> read www.gotw.ca
[15:04:07] <roots_> it is nice in some scenarios i admit
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[15:04:30] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: In Java you don't worry about freeing memory, and you can handle other resources using a try..finally.
[15:04:31] <roots_> i did way more c (and c++) then java but still i am not blind to new things
[15:04:34] <roots_> the days of c/c++ are over
[15:04:36] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: Maybe I've misunderstood.
[15:05:01] <roots_> ricky_clarkson: try/finally is definately a construct that deals with the same goals as resource-ac-is-init
[15:05:14] <headhunter> i like writing new File ("test") instead of file.open ("test").. so i'll stick to it.
[15:05:40] <headhunter> is finally already in the 1.4 jdk?
[15:06:02] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: 1.0
[15:06:32] <headhunter> roots_: no way. i wanna see your next os or driver written in java. also for areas where memory or computer power in general is short c++ will be needed. dito in research, because it's faster.
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[15:06:36] <headhunter> :)
[15:07:00] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: So, um, why is Java running on 1.5 billion mobile phones?
[15:07:27] <headhunter> mh, good point, didn't think of that.
[15:07:32] <noa> because there are things in a mobile phone that's nice to run in a sandbox
[15:07:33] <headhunter> why are these phones so slow?
[15:07:42] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: Because J2ME is a bag of wank.
[15:07:56] <headhunter> hehe
[15:07:57] * noa has a cousin that codes the OS for Sony-Ericsson P9xx
[15:08:02] <noa> in c++
[15:08:20] <ricky_clarkson> OSs on mobile phones typically don't even provide memory protection.
[15:08:34] <headhunter> c++ days aren't over, keep in mind there are still ppl writing software in c or fortran.
[15:08:37] <ricky_clarkson> Which means, ladies and gentlemen, you can read and write from and to null.
[15:09:09] <ricky_clarkson> I doubt the J2ME implementations let you.
[15:09:43] <noa> ricky_clarkson, that's correct.. which leads to interesting 'blame game' situations when severeal develpment teams work together :)
[15:10:04] <ricky_clarkson> noa: There are, thankfully, tools which can find likely or possible null accesses.
[15:10:21] <headhunter> is it save to assure that uninitialized variables are 0?
[15:10:26] <ricky_clarkson> But in one project I worked on, one such tool was introduced in the last debugging stage.
[15:10:27] <slava> headhunter: what's wrong with writing code in C?
[15:10:28] <headhunter> ^ that is "zero"
[15:10:32] <noa> headhunter, in java yes
[15:10:41] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: Uninitialised variables are undefined.  You can't read from them.
[15:10:45] <headhunter> good, thx
[15:10:55] <headhunter> slava: no oop features
[15:11:07] <roots_> motif is quite OO
[15:11:08] <headhunter> i mean the builtin types like long or int
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[15:11:19] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: Me too.
[15:11:22] <slava> headhunter: C is useful for, eg, implementing language runtimes
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[15:12:08] <headhunter> i'm not bashing c slava, i just say that there's no reason to use it if there is any other alternative.
[15:12:22] <slava> usually where C is used there is no alternative
[15:12:33] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: Er, there is.  C might be a better option.
[15:12:56] <slava> headhunter: java sucks for a large number of problem domains too. anything where speed and memory usage is important
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[15:13:28] <headhunter> i don't think you can easily compare c and java.. better use c++ and java.
[15:13:40] <ricky_clarkson> I'd rather skip C++.
[15:13:44] <roots_> he ? did you see my 1999 software rendering demo at www.infuse.org
[15:13:58] <slava> oop is overrated anyway. its only a slight improvement over procedural. the real gain in power comes from functional programming
[15:13:59] <roots_> its java1.1 putting ints into an int[], its not even optimized or anything
[15:14:23] <ricky_clarkson> slava: I think whatever the problem domain is should determine the solution domain.
[15:14:30] <roots_> now that pretty much defeats the point that java is slow
[15:15:39] <headhunter> ricky_clarkson: once you've done c++ for some years you'll surely realize all it's powers and possibilities
[15:15:48] <slava> or you will realize that it sucks
[15:15:56] <roots_> headhunter: i have done c++ for a living for many years
[15:16:04] <roots_> and herb sutter is the iso spec lead for c++
[15:16:07] <slava> all the people i know who have done C++ for many years now prefer java, ruby, lisp, ...
[15:16:13] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: I did C++ enough to realise that gcc has really really poor error messages, especially where templates are concerned.
[15:16:17] <roots_> he is the first to admit that c++ is a misdesign
[15:17:03] <Clackwell> *some years* to realize all of c++'s possibilities and powers?
[15:17:17] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: At one point I knew the entire language, but I lost interest when I noticed Java.
[15:17:25] <ricky_clarkson> Minus newer stuff like STL.
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[15:18:00] <Clackwell> "hey, this language is so complex, it will take most people several years to learn!" "erh...aha. is that a good thing?"
[15:18:05] <{aaron}> is it possible to specify a layout pattern for log4j that specifies category precision from the left instead of right?
[15:18:19] <{aaron}> e.g. ignore the first N packages in the qualified name?
[15:18:22] <ricky_clarkson> At first I missed some of the features, like operator overloading and templates.  Then I noticed that I had been spending too much time fiddling with those in C++ instead of getting things done.
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[15:18:47] <{aaron}> ricky_clarkson: features in C++ are like condiments.  Some are good.  But too many and it gets disgusting.
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[15:19:49] <headhunter> i'm doing c++ since about 6 years now and i'm still learning new things about it every day. this is good. i could write c++ programs very fast, but the more i knew the language the more i could properly employ its utilities.
[15:20:08] <headhunter> it's not that you have to be a c++ guru to write a simple hello world. c++ is more complicated, but you don't have to use everything at once in the beginnings.
[15:20:19] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: And would other C++ programmers understand your code?
[15:20:30] <{aaron}> headhunter: the trick is knowing what /not/ to use
[15:20:51] <headhunter> sure ricky_clarkson .. effective c++ turns your code more compact and more readable.
[15:20:54] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: How many String implementations have you written? ;)
[15:21:06] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: Compact and readable aren't always related.
[15:21:26] * ricky_clarkson asks roots_ to donate a couple of Perl one-liners.
[15:21:28] <headhunter> not many, string classes are boring.
[15:21:42] <headhunter> please don't take my words into the very extreme.
[15:21:43] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: See, Java programmers wouldn't dream of doing that.
[15:21:51] <Clackwell> headhunter: isn't the question wether one should ever use all provided features at once? if one would, wouldn't that make the code unmaintainable and incomprehensible to any developer who has not advanced as far into c++?
[15:21:56] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: And would other C++ programmers understand your code?
[15:22:05] <roots_> c++ bastring (from STL) is based on a shared data rep and simple reference counting
[15:22:23] <roots_> making copies of c++ strings extremely cheap, just inc the refcount and share the data once one
[15:22:30] * ricky_clarkson creates a reference loop and lasts forever!
[15:22:34] <roots_> it also implies a copy-on-write type of approach
[15:22:49] <roots_> but! it is completely utterly lame for multithreaded apps
[15:22:57] <{aaron}> roots_: aren't there synchronization issues with that ap....nevermind :)
[15:23:09] <roots_> but fast copying is a must because with STL elements get copied
[15:23:12] <{aaron}> roots_: that is one of the problems of not having parallism specified in your language
[15:23:17] <roots_> at least when you deal with values
[15:23:32] <roots_> c++ isnt even specified properly for the most part
[15:23:44] <Clackwell> headhunter: double the features of c++. or add a ten times as many features...where is the point that making use of all features at once is unwise, is there such a point in the first place?
[15:23:47] <roots_> its just bizarrely complex, bizarrely ambigious, and ridicously misdesigned
[15:23:49] <headhunter> see, c++ is like an armory: it has decent weapons like const correctness or references, moderate ones like operator overloading and default parameters, and if you know what you're doing you can go to the big ones and use multiple inheritance and templates. the way you fight your problem is up to you - c++ just leaves you all the possibilities in the world. and other programmers not understanding my code is their problem - there is a lot
[15:23:49] <headhunter> of very good documentation on c++ on the net.
[15:23:50] <{aaron}> roots_: "Yeah"S
[15:24:14] <roots_> the best c++ documentation is www.gota.ca by herb sutter (the c++ iso spec lead)
[15:24:27] <Clackwell> headhunter: well. you are contributing to the maintenance problems with that attitude.
[15:24:32] <roots_> and it proves that c++ is just like i described it above better than anything else possibly could
[15:24:37] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: If understanding each other's code is each other's problem, then you're all adding to the same problem.
[15:24:37] <Clackwell> the industry has realized that years ago, and moved on.
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[15:24:54] <roots_> Clackwell: yipp, microsoft is not invested billions into dot.net for no reason
[15:25:12] <Clackwell> roots_: plus sun, plus borland, plus ibm, and and and
[15:25:16] <{aaron}> roots_: the problem probably originates and is compounded by the fact that it was derived with backwards compatibility with C in mind, and then it could never be changed once all those Cisms were on board
[15:25:18] <Clackwell> including ourselves
[15:25:26] <headhunter> the only thing i admit is really complex in c++ is template meta programming, but there is rarely a reason to use it. and the stl templates are also quite easy to read if you can follow open brackets.
[15:25:46] <Clackwell> headhunter: for very intelligent people, not too many are complex.
[15:25:53] <Clackwell> there is the "rest" though...
[15:25:56] <{aaron}> headhunter: the complexities they introduce into the type system just boggle my mind
[15:26:17] <roots_> headhunter: have you ever worked with c++ ?
[15:26:23] <roots_> on the job for real ? i have my doubts frankly
[15:26:29] <headhunter> Clackwell: the industry sees that with java or .net the average programmer can write programs 30% faster than with c++. so why care about beauty or the ppl who can program if the joe average goes faster with the vm languages?
[15:26:31] <roots_> do you follow www.gota.ca ?
[15:26:45] <ricky_clarkson> class X<T t>: public Y<X>, Z<T:P> or whatever.
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[15:27:01] <headhunter> roots_: not for money, na
[15:27:08] <roots_> excpetion safety is definately a much harder subject then templates
[15:27:08] <headhunter> i don't follow that particular site
[15:27:14] <roots_> headhunter: i have for years
[15:27:20] <Clackwell> maybe it boiles down to two fractions: those who think that (unnecessary?) complexity is not a problem, that it just needs better training, and those who think that (unnecessary?) complexity is the root of many problems of the software industry and thus needs to be avoided, even at high cost.
[15:27:24] <Clackwell> boils
[15:27:28] <roots_> headhunter: you should, its one of the major things to follow for c++ coders
[15:27:46] <{aaron}> Clackwell: i have never heard of the former camp
[15:27:47] <roots_> Clackwell: what about the category of people that dont have opinions on things but experience instead ?
[15:27:55] <ricky_clarkson> headhunter: Even experienced coders will find it easier to communicate with each other with Java code than with C++, I think.
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[15:28:46] <{aaron}> it's all tradeoffs. if you are willing to trade off many things to get some of the things you want with c++ so be it (namely a compromise in usability with performance and latency, for things like games, etc.)
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[15:28:51] <headhunter> i haven't experienced that yet.
[15:28:52] <Clackwell> {aaron}: doesn't headhunter belong to that camp?
[15:29:03] <{aaron}> Clackwell: maybe he's the first one I've meet ;)
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[15:29:08] <Clackwell> ;)
[15:29:15] <headhunter> i agree aaron. it's also a matter of taste.
[15:29:19] * {aaron} nods
[15:29:25] <Clackwell> any "c++, yay" sayers might belong there. :)
[15:29:29] <headhunter> {aaron}: surely the first one in #java ;)
[15:29:33] <{aaron}> it's also silly to religiously hate a language too
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[15:29:44] <headhunter> another thing, knowing c++ surely makes it easier to learn *any* other programming language because they are surely less compless :o)
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[15:30:11] <{aaron}> headhunter: yes, having to be exposed to some things lends a better understanding/appreciation for those things in other languages
[15:30:18] <roots_> yes but you could try quantum mechanics too
[15:30:25] <Clackwell> roots_: those belong to the intelligent people not realizing how much (unnecessary?) complexity is a problem to "lesser" people.
[15:30:36] <{aaron}> headhunter: for instance, after using formal initializer lists, the java way of arbitrarily imposing super constructor invocation order seems silly
[15:30:45] <roots_> Clackwell: problems arise when you have 2000 items
[15:30:52] <ricky_clarkson> {aaron}: How is it arbitrary?
[15:30:53] <roots_> with intertwined dependencies
[15:31:07] <{aaron}> (MUST be the first statement, UNLESS of course you call other methods that return values used as arguments)
[15:31:30] <{aaron}> int i = 5; super(i) <-- not ok      super(getI()) <-- ok
[15:31:32] <ricky_clarkson> {aaron}: That's not arbitrary, there are reasons.
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[15:31:46] <{aaron}> ricky_clarkson: right, but the reasons are not apparent like they are with formal initializer lists
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[15:32:10] <roots_> i agree
[15:32:12] <ricky_clarkson> Oh yeah, it should really let you access local variables.
[15:32:15] <Xgc> It's also a matter of still having to put up with the failure modes C lends itself to.  Constructing correctly behaving programs is very tough in C and only a little better in C++.
[15:32:30] <roots_> ricky_clarkson: then it would have to sort out dependencies there
[15:32:36] <ricky_clarkson> roots_: Why?
[15:32:40] <ricky_clarkson> There aren't any.
[15:33:08] <{aaron}> the best way I've found for using c++ is try as much as possible to use it like Java, as opposed to C... just eradicate all C-isms you can find.  mixing them is a horrible idea.
[15:33:14] <roots_> eg you local var could depend on a field from the superclass
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[15:33:30] <ricky_clarkson> roots_: So deny access to the field.
[15:33:41] <roots_> also the instance is not even constructed
[15:33:45] <ricky_clarkson> No 'this' until super() has been called.
[15:33:47] <roots_> heck, the superclass isnt
[15:33:56] <{aaron}> ricky_clarkson: right. it *can* be done. but there is no formalism that makes it immediately clear to the programmer what is being enforced
[15:33:56] <roots_> thats the c++ way
[15:34:04] <Xgc> {aaron}: That's probably the best approach, although I bet most find that hard to do.
[15:34:09] <bowyakka> i am getting seriously tempted to trun this debian box ito a gentoo one
[15:34:14] <ricky_clarkson> {aaron}: If you don't subclass, you don't need to worry about this. ;)
[15:34:21] <{aaron}> Xgc: yeah. manual memory management just muddies the entire issue
[15:34:24] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: What's up?
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[15:34:39] <{aaron}> Xgc: actually modern c++ guidelines look a lot like Java
[15:34:49] <bowyakka> ricky_clarkson, its just making my life harder than it needs to be
[15:34:58] <Xgc> {aaron}: It's more a matter of avoiding the pointer pitfalls.
[15:34:59] <{aaron}> Xgc: things like "pass by value, don't worry about performance until you have to, most compilers can optimize it"
[15:35:01] <ricky_clarkson> {aaron}: Are there CheckStyle-ish tools for C++ to check that kind of thing?
[15:35:04] * {aaron} nods
[15:35:05] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: In what way?
[15:35:25] <{aaron}> ricky_clarkson: the only ones I found cost $$$$^2
[15:35:31] <ricky_clarkson> Ah.
[15:35:32] <{aaron}> the language is just too complex
[15:35:33] <bowyakka> i have to upgrade to testing to get a more moden platform ot build a newer kerenl to get fuse working to get sshfs working
[15:35:43] <bowyakka> so that i can geta s tie copy of viewcvs working
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[15:35:54] <ricky_clarkson> geta s tie?
[15:35:58] <bowyakka> *get a site sorry
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[15:36:09] <{aaron}> (well, there are code-formatters, but lint/findbugs is very expensive for c++)
[15:36:13] <bowyakka> but gets a tie is a cool idea
[15:36:13] <roots_> eg classic c++ problem is calling overridden methods in a destructor
[15:36:15] <roots_> well next subject
[15:36:52] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: Could you do that in a UML?
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[15:37:01] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: Really though, stable isn't particularly old.
[15:37:29] <bowyakka> its an idea
[15:37:40] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: Is viewcvs really necessary?  Hell, is cvs even necessary?
[15:37:53] <bowyakka> ricky_clarkson, cvs holds the site repo of all the source
[15:38:06] <ricky_clarkson> What does viewcvs do?
[15:38:15] * ricky_clarkson thinks he just asked a very obvious question.
[15:38:37] <bowyakka> viewcvs lets you browser history search cvs logs etc
[15:39:11] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: Use a UML or a separate box - especially if the machine is a server.
[15:39:12] <bowyakka> i am testing bonsai, viewcvs and fisheye, they all do nice history browing etc, but the downside is they all need to read the cvs files, raw
[15:39:29] <bowyakka> oh no this isn't the cvs server itself its a testing box
[15:39:50] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: If they need access to the CVS files you could use NFS, or rsync'd copies.
[15:40:07] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: And afaik sshfs can be inserted as a module.
[15:40:18] <ricky_clarkson> module-assistant did it for me on Debian.
[15:41:47] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: Does this make sense?
[15:41:54] <ricky_clarkson> If not, you should definitely not use testing.
[15:42:07] <ricky_clarkson> If so, you should definitely not using testing.
[15:42:22] <ricky_clarkson> s/using/use/
[15:42:38] <bowyakka> ricky_clarkson, i am not allowed to use nfs here, module assistant bailed for me, it just bombed out
[15:42:56] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: Any error message?
[15:43:00] <ricky_clarkson> Why no NFS?
[15:43:12] <ricky_clarkson> If it's security you could use a VPN too.
[15:43:30] <ricky_clarkson> Or maybe tunnel it over ssh (not a clue whether that's possible).
[15:43:48] <bowyakka> its a persevied secuirty risk (sad isn't it i mean i am here using a irc client, i have smb shares in windows but someone once wrote in the secuirty policy that nfs is a risk and thus i must not be done *sighs*)
[15:44:07] <roots_> why not use ssh then ?
[15:44:18] <roots_> ssh and cvs ? :)
[15:44:20] <bowyakka> rsync is a possible i hadn't thought of since its cheaper than a straight mirror
[15:44:22] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: NFS would save some of your precious time, hence money.
[15:44:45] <bowyakka> root it has to be the actuall cvs repo the true files not what cvs returns
[15:45:43] <bowyakka> ricky_clarkson, i know , we are not even allowed to test suse for one of our applications (which would resolve a threading issue in RHE3) because its outside of any support contracts
[15:46:44] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: Why would you even ASK whether you can test with suse?
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[15:47:11] <roots_> so viewcvs uses what ?
[15:47:13] <roots_> pserver right ?
[15:47:24] <bowyakka> because i have to get signed documents before I can install it on a box
[15:47:26] <ricky_clarkson> roots_: He says no, it uses the filesystem.
[15:47:35] <roots_> oops, right
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[15:47:38] <bowyakka> root nope it looks at the cvs files - raw :P
[15:47:48] <bowyakka> im gonna try rsync in a mo
[15:47:59] <roots_> so run it on the box with the reposit
[15:48:13] <roots_> and forward its output somehow
[15:48:14] <ricky_clarkson> "[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp: a billion different sublanguages in one monolithic executable. It combines the power of C with the readability of PostScript." . Jamie Zawinski
[15:48:21] <ricky_clarkson> That's on a the ViewCVS site.
[15:48:27] <bowyakka> roots_, cant that is the only, main repo box, i am not allowed on it
[15:48:48] <roots_> then you can take the day off :)
[15:48:56] <bowyakka> lol nice
[15:49:07] <bowyakka> fisheye looks nicest but it costs megabucks
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[15:50:07] <davidw> I started programming in perl, but later became de-nammored (?) of it
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[15:50:32] <bowyakka> ah perls ok, only awk beats it for text work
[15:51:02] <cheeser> ricky_clarkson: you can plug in whatever database you want.  it's just jdbc.
[15:51:30] <ricky_clarkson> cheeser: Yeah, but I can't use your data with whatever database I want.
[15:51:44] <cheeser> sure you can.
[15:51:49] <{aaron}> disenamored?
[15:51:52] <cheeser> the back up is just a dump of insert statements.
[15:52:04] <cheeser> there's a bit of pgsql stuff before/after, but you can strip that out.
[15:52:04] <ricky_clarkson> You said there are PGSQL-specific things in there.
[15:52:11] <ricky_clarkson> I see.
[15:52:21] <bowyakka> ricky_clarkson, write your data in xml and then write a generator script that emits sql for the specific data
[15:52:21] <ricky_clarkson> So the PGSQL stuff is non-essential.
[15:53:08] <cheeser> yeah.  it's just some weird stuff the pgsql tables.
[15:53:18] <cheeser> you can delete all that and just run the rest as plain inserts.
[15:54:41] <EExtasEE>  data in xml <---mouarf
[15:55:03] <bowyakka> EExtasEE, or some other flat file method
[15:55:44] <ricky_clarkson> bowyakka: Like serialisation?
[15:56:09] * eidolon yawns.
[15:56:16] * ricky_clarkson chuckles in cheeser's general direction. ;)
[15:56:36] <cheeser> ricky_clarkson: if you just grep for "INSERT" on the back up file, you'll have all you need recreate the db in hsqldb
[15:56:45] <ricky_clarkson> cheeser: Excellent.
[15:56:58] <cheeser> i should make the backup script do that...
[15:57:05] <ricky_clarkson> Agree.
[15:57:27] <cheeser> although there is one like you'll want and that's one for setting sequence value for factoid IDs
[15:58:04] <cheeser> that probably *will* be db specific.
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[16:10:34] <headhunter> in order to make a simple thread my custom class must implement the Runnable interface with a void run() function which will start as thread when called. correct?
[16:10:52] <Clackwell> "when called"?
[16:11:14] <Clackwell> run will be executed in/by some thread, yes.
[16:11:18] <headhunter> myThread.run() will spawn run as new thread?
[16:11:30] <Clackwell> headhunter: nope.
[16:11:31] <headhunter> how can i run my from Runnable inherited class?
[16:11:36] <headhunter> that's what i thought
[16:11:49] <Clackwell> you seemed to thought otherwise a second ago.
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[16:12:04] <{aaron}> headhunter: thread.start() is the magic word
[16:12:05] <Clackwell> people in here seem to have "thought so" very often. :)
[16:12:06] <headhunter> that's what i thought it does, but it doesn't do it.
[16:12:27] <{aaron}> run is completely synchronous (like everything else)
[16:12:33] <Clackwell> headhunter: sun java tutorial multithreading trail might be helpful.
[16:12:36] <{aaron}> it would just call the run() method in the current thread
[16:13:00] <Clackwell> highly irritating to call run() yourself, too. :)
[16:13:49] <roots_> classic mistake
[16:15:00] <headhunter> is this really the prefered way to start a thread? new Thread(new Runnable() {public void run() {_app.run();	}}).start();
[16:15:09] <cheeser> yep
[16:15:22] <headhunter> looks odd - i know it's called reflection
[16:15:25] <Clackwell> but...but...that's so...hideous!
[16:15:30] <roots_> invoking .start() is the only way i am aware off
[16:15:30] <Clackwell> headhunter: you do?
[16:15:37] <cheeser> though is you're going that route, you could just make app implement Runnable
[16:15:47] <cheeser> new Thread(_app).start()
[16:15:54] <roots_>                                 Rectangle r1 = new Rectangle(b1.left, b1.top, b1.getWidth(), b1.getHeight());
[16:16:04] <roots_> arg sorry
[16:16:12] <Clackwell> cheeser: i bet there is _run1(), _run2(), etc.
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[16:16:29] <cheeser> tee hee hee
[16:17:04] <{aaron}> headhunter: there isn't a reason to wrap _app if _app is runnable
[16:17:10] <{aaron}> headhunter: new Thread(_app).start()
[16:17:24] <{aaron}> d'oh.
[16:18:14] <headhunter> yay, i can crash the virtual machine :)
[16:18:27] <Clackwell> headhunter: well done sir.
[16:18:36] * headhunter feels proud!
[16:18:51] <headhunter> but i somehow cheated.. using jni calls
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[16:19:46] <Clackwell> oh bah, that's major cheating
[16:20:07] <headhunter> ah well.. it's called JOGL
[16:22:03] <Clackwell> my mom is on irc now. scary.
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[16:25:55] * ricky_clarkson cycles home.
[16:26:27] *** Kal-L has joined ##java
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[16:27:14] <davidw> bicycles +++++++
[16:27:23] * cheeser cues Queen.
[16:27:29] <cheeser> get on your bikes and ride!
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[16:28:36] <roots_> Clackwell: on #perl ?
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[16:29:13] <Clackwell> roots_: some other network, some web-based chatroom, irc based...
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[16:29:40] <headhunter> "An unexpected error has been detected by HotSpot Virtual Machine:" -> this happens when i try to run a member function from inside a thread and access one common piece of data (from jogl). is this my bug or a hotspot bug?
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[16:30:03] <Clackwell> "oh, jni? don't bother calling us..."
[16:30:14] <roots_> hah
[16:30:16] <roots_> but its c or c++
[16:30:21] <roots_> isnt that automatically great ?
[16:31:20] <headhunter> jni makes problems when using threads?
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[16:31:56] <Drone> View Kal-L's post at:  http://eugeneciurana.com/pastebin/pastebin.php?show=8309
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[16:32:39] <Kal-L> really would apprecaite it if someone took a look at my post
[16:32:43] <roots_> you can't use jni without threads
[16:32:45] <roots_> in the first place
[16:32:48] <roots_> and yes it gets complicated
[16:33:07] <Kal-L> this is my first app using threads
[16:33:13] <Kal-L> well.. thread
[16:33:20] <Kal-L> :)
[16:33:45] <roots_> dont ever do that
[16:33:50] <roots_> use javax.swing.Timer
[16:33:56] <Kal-L> me?
[16:33:57] <roots_> and/or read about swing and multithreading
[16:34:00] <roots_> no you
[16:34:05] <Clackwell> hi kalel
[16:34:09] <Kal-L> sup
[16:34:19] <roots_> use the swing timer and you'll be happy
[16:34:25] <Clackwell> Kal-L: more graphics programming?
[16:34:56] <Kal-L> hehe..last time it wasn't graphics i don't think
[16:35:09] * Clackwell wonders if this is *the* Kal-El
[16:35:15] <Kal-L> no no
[16:35:21] <Kal-L> someone else has my name???
[16:35:40] <Clackwell> Kal-L, someone from undernet, at some point, who wrote a java3d app, if i recall correctly.
[16:36:00] <Kal-L> applet?
[16:36:09] <Clackwell> Kal-L: not sure, might be.
[16:36:14] <Kal-L> hmm..
[16:36:18] <roots_> www.infuse.org
[16:36:22] <Kal-L> well i'm certain it's not me
[16:36:23] <Clackwell> well, 3d, rather than java3d
[16:36:32] <roots_> Kal-L: that would be possible if you'd used java.swing.Timer :)
[16:36:32] <Clackwell> Kal-L: ok. then buzz off.
[16:36:36] <Clackwell> Kal-L: just kidding :)
[16:36:44] <Kal-L> ouch..
[16:37:52] <Kal-L> making the flickering stop would be possible by using a timer?
[16:38:04] <roots_> nah just kidding
[16:38:08] <roots_> try  setDoubleBuffered
[16:38:10] <Kal-L> lol
[16:38:17] <roots_> you need a swing timer to prevent random crashes
[16:39:13] <Kal-L> really..man i just have so much to learn
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[16:43:33] <bowyakka> wow watch the network load :)
[16:43:36] <pchapman> Kal-L, Just go ahead and pay for the direct brain upload.  It'll save you time.
[16:43:56] <bowyakka> good idea never to do rsync on 10 gb dirs .....
[16:44:09] <pchapman> Ick!
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[16:45:19] <kiwnix> is netbeans.org site down?
[16:47:22] <doc|work> The connection was refused when attempting to contact netbeans.org.
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[16:50:16] <pchapman> I think there were some problems getting into the netbeans.org site last night.  It may still be down.
[16:50:20] *** Kal-L has quit IRC
[16:50:55] <pchapman> It's a good time to go to eclipse.org.  >:-)
[16:51:08] *** teralaser has quit IRC
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[16:52:20] <cheeser> www.jetbrains.com
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[16:52:54] <Clackwell> IDE pimping
[16:53:12] <pchapman> kiwnix, The netbeans.org site came up for me.
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[16:53:31] <littlezoper> borland.com
[16:53:32] <littlezoper> :)
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[16:54:50] <Peeloo> hi all, how would you delete date laine (like "12 oct. 2005 16:19:14 cassis.cassisd.Server run") in java.util.logging ?
[16:55:12] <bowyakka> ~google xdevelop
[16:55:14] <javabot> I'll tell you the results in a private message, bowyakka
[16:55:32] <kiwnix> pchapman: thanks :)
[16:55:36] <bowyakka> http://www.omnicore.com/xdevelop.htm :)
[16:55:47] <pchapman> np
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[16:56:59] <Kal-L> geez..this sux
[16:59:32] <Kal-L> so much more simple to implement it in an applet
[16:59:53] <Kal-L> even in an applet with using a buffer it doen't flicker half as much
[17:00:43] <Kal-L> ooh well
[17:00:51] <Kal-L> guess i'll get ready for work
[17:01:05] <Kal-L> anyone in the southeastern Louisiana need a job? lol
[17:01:24] * davidw needs a job, but hasn't figured out what the fuck he wants to do when he grows up
[17:01:48] <Kal-L> well i don't want to do this when I "grow up"
[17:01:54] <Kal-L> but it pays good money
[17:02:08] <Kal-L> making about 2 grand per week
[17:02:14] <quietdisaster> when i grow up i'm either going to be a superhero, a lottery winner, or an international gem/art theif
[17:02:17] <quietdisaster> i haven't decided
[17:02:22] <Kal-L> lol
[17:02:38] * cheeser gets quietdisaster's McDonald's hat for him and sends him off to work.
[17:02:39] <Kal-L> well our major cable tv provider in the south is going bankrupt
[17:02:40] <pchapman> When I grow up, I'm gonna be a bum.
[17:02:48] <quietdisaster> in the meanwhile i'm a cs grad student
[17:02:50] <quietdisaster> :-P
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[17:03:10] <Kal-L> and since the hurriance NO ONE has cable and they aren't coming back to give us cable
[17:03:13] <davidw> Kal-L, what are you working on?
[17:03:17] <Kal-L> so everyone is switching to satellite
[17:03:23] <Kal-L> i install satellites
[17:03:33] <Kal-L> davidw, ooh my program??
[17:03:35] <pchapman> Kal-L, I do too, but only for myself.
[17:03:37] <quietdisaster> that sounds like a pretty sweet deal
[17:03:44] <roots_> 2 grand per week ?
[17:03:45] <davidw> mmmm actually I was more interested in the 2K a week thing
[17:03:47] <Kal-L> yea backed up for like a year
[17:03:57] <Kal-L> around 100 bucks per installation
[17:03:59] <quietdisaster> who's making 2k a week?
[17:03:59] <pchapman> Kal-L, Starband?
[17:04:00] <cheeser> javabot: forget timing
[17:04:02] <javabot> I forgot about timing, cheeser.
[17:04:02] <Kal-L> if they want customization i tax em hard
[17:04:03] <quietdisaster> geeeze
[17:04:25] <Kal-L> i do a little less than 20 jobs a week and get over 200 jobs a day sent to me
[17:04:38] <Kal-L> u gotta understand NO one here has cable man
[17:05:06] <quietdisaster> the cable lines weren't buried?
[17:05:06] <pr3d4t0r> Bonjour.
[17:05:10] <Kal-L> quietdisaster, i am :)
[17:05:12] <davidw> wow, it boggles the mind... how can they exist?
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[17:05:24] <Kal-L> cable lines aren't buried in us
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[17:05:30] <EExtasEE> pr3d4t0r ~mouarf
[17:05:33] <Kal-L> besides the cable company here went bankrupt
[17:05:36] <quietdisaster> lol
[17:05:42] <Kal-L> they aren't coming to fix the lines
[17:05:44] <Kal-L> :(
[17:05:47] <Kal-L> charter is going bye bye
[17:05:54] <quietdisaster> that sucks
[17:05:58] <Kal-L> which means more biz for me :)
[17:06:14] <Kal-L> you would think the bastards would give me free satellite since i work for them
[17:06:23] <Kal-L> DirecTv are cheapos
[17:06:31] <quietdisaster> i'm not sure i'd want satellite tv in an area prone to large storms
[17:06:42] <Kal-L> no other choice man
[17:06:47] <Kal-L> NO other cable provider
[17:06:49] <quietdisaster> you could always, i dunno, move?
[17:06:54] <Kal-L> we just got sbc dsl after the storm
[17:07:00] <Kal-L> we had once choice..DSL
[17:07:23] <Kal-L> no one offers satellite internet in the whole state either...so who ever starts that here will be very rich
[17:07:38] <Kal-L> sorry.. "one choice...bellsouth"
[17:08:23] * pr3d4t0r hands EExtasEE a barf bag.
[17:08:43] * pr3d4t0r sighs
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[17:09:21] <EExtasEE> I got a little dumb question : String myString = new String("lol");<-----Is it possible to generate the type of an object dynamically ?
[17:09:52] <headhunter> new String("lol") maybe?
[17:10:12] <Cow_woC> EExtasEE: first of all, always use "lol" without new String() in front
[17:10:18] <EExtasEE> no, Im talking about String(the frst one)
[17:10:27] <Cow_woC> EExtasEE: as for dynamic type generation, I think not
[17:11:40] <davidw> Cow_woC, what's the difference between = new String("ugh") and  = "ugh"; ?
[17:12:06] <EExtasEE> no differences
[17:12:07] <pr3d4t0r> EExtasEE: Yeah, that's fine.
[17:12:21] <Kal-L> later everyone
[17:12:41] <EExtasEE> pr3d4t0r ??
[17:12:46] <pr3d4t0r> EExtasEE: String a = new String("LOL"), b = "LOL"; a != b
[17:12:48] <EExtasEE> what is fine?
[17:13:04] <pr3d4t0r> EExtasEE: String a = "LOL", b = "LOL"; a == b;
[17:13:31] <pr3d4t0r> EExtasEE: Unless they've become really smart at optimizing stuff.
[17:13:34] <EExtasEE> but that was not my problem
[17:13:40] <pr3d4t0r> EExtasEE: What's your problem?
[17:13:53] <pr3d4t0r> davidw: ^^^^
[17:14:07] <EExtasEE> the problem is to generate dynamically the type
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[17:14:23] <pr3d4t0r> EExtasEE: What do you mean by "generate dynamically the type"?
[17:14:35] <frohike> Any hibernate users here?
[17:15:00] <pr3d4t0r> EExtasEE: You can't generate types in Java dynamically unless you have something like BCEL or ASM.
[17:15:32] <davidw> EExtasEE, what are you attempting?
[17:15:41] <EExtasEE> BCEL or ASM. mouarf
[17:16:19] <frohike> Hibernate "best practises". Is it advisable to use stored procedures even if hibernate persists data for me?
[17:16:20] <pr3d4t0r> EExtasEE: Yeah, I think we need to learn more about your desired outcome :)
[17:16:28] <EExtasEE> Im trying to affect to an object of a certain type (which I want to define dynamically) another casted object
[17:16:35] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Those two decisions are orthogonal.
[17:16:56] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Putting data in stored procedures is a function of performance and portability.
[17:17:15] <EExtasEE> I don't want to do something like that : Object myObj=(myType)anotherObject
[17:17:16] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: And let's use a better term:  manipulating instead of putting.
[17:17:36] <frohike> pr3d4t0r: I am more concerned of deadlocks. in stored procedures, if i update tables in the correct order, deadlocks can be avoided
[17:17:49] <frohike> I can't seem to find any docs about the order of updates when using hibernate
[17:17:59] <glen_quagmire> if I want to make a customized UI, like games, do I have to use java2d?
[17:18:18] <glen_quagmire> or can I make UI pretty using images in swing?
[17:18:26] <pr3d4t0r> EExtasEE: If you have control over both, have both of them implement a minimal interface (like Serializable) and then you can cross-assign to your heart's request.
[17:18:45] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Stored procedures are awesome for implementing business logic.
[17:19:15] <Clackwell> ~pr3d4t0r++
[17:19:18] <javabot> pr3d4t0r has a karma level of 119, Clackwell
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[17:19:33] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: If it's any guidance, I had a nice long chat with Gavin about applications running on a cluster and using exclusively stored procedures for all data manipulation and The Man himself said that Hibernate wasn't the best choice for that.
[17:20:06] <Clackwell> frohike: i think this is the first time that table lock order has ever been brought up in here as long as i remember...
[17:20:09] <frohike> pr3d4t0r: Indeed. Using hibernate as a dao implementation is great, imho. Since hibernate provides persistence facilities, I am now wieghing the two options
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[17:20:18] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: If you want to do some ORM, take a peek at iBATIS.
[17:20:46] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Plus with iBATIS you don't have to deal with the JBoss politics ;)_
[17:20:48] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Plus with iBATIS you don't have to deal with the JBoss politics ;)
[17:21:13] <frohike> pr3d4t0r: Alright. So for you, in your opinion, you think hibernate should be left out of updating the database?
[17:22:01] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: If you don't have a really big application, and if the database tables aren't too big (<= 50 columns per table) I'd say Hibernate is a good choice.
[17:22:18] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: We have tables with 300+ columns, for example :)
[17:22:24] <roots_> i am to ojb for my freetime tool
[17:22:28] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: And a few terabytes size.
[17:22:29] <roots_> 300+ columns ?
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[17:22:48] <roots_> sure this normalized ?
[17:23:23] <Clackwell> b_HasA01, b_HasA02, b_HasA03...
[17:23:28] <Clackwell> bit fields :)
[17:23:36] <roots_> hah
[17:23:40] <frohike> pr3d4t0r: I believe hibernate would be a good orm for the app i'm working on. however, i am just wondering if hibernate can handle db updates in a user specified order, to avoid deadlocks
[17:23:59] <EExtasEE> ~pr3d4t0r++
[17:24:00] <Clackwell> frohike: contacted the authors?
[17:24:01] <javabot> pr3d4t0r has a karma level of 120, EExtasEE
[17:24:24] <frohike> Clackwell: I thought I'd ask here first. I can't find any docs about this
[17:24:35] <frohike> and a test case for the scenario is hard to generate
[17:25:24] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Honest, I'd look at iBATIS.  Hibernate has better PR, but iBATIS may do better for lots of things.
[17:25:36] <Clackwell> frohike: i don't think you need a test case for that. either they have thought about it, or not.
[17:25:46] <pr3d4t0r> roots_: Business needs.  New fields are easier to add at the end of tables.
[17:25:56] <Clackwell> frohike: if they don't understand lock order...avoid hibernate. :)
[17:25:57] <frohike> pr3d4t0r: I'm looking at ibatis now
[17:26:12] <roots_> ok but still scary
[17:26:15] <roots_> ojb also exists
[17:26:18] <roots_> and about a dozen more
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[17:26:29] <solus> pr3d4t0r: is iBatis better for pretty much everything (in your opinion) or just when you have lots and lots of data and big systems?
[17:28:15] <pr3d4t0r> solus: Just when your application logic lives in the database, not the Java world.
[17:28:36] <pr3d4t0r> solus: I think Cayenne or Hibernate are better if you have a smallish application and your business logic lives in Java.
[17:29:06] <solus> pr3d4t0r: my logic lives in Java
[17:29:31] <solus> pr3d4t0r: and a lot of things are smallish compared to where you're coming from
[17:30:11] <frohike> pr3d4t0r: The only thing I understand is good about business logic in db would be performance? Any more benefits?
[17:30:14] <pr3d4t0r> solus: If you don't have a dedicated database team to maintain the beast, Hibernate or Cayenne.
[17:30:39] <pr3d4t0r> solus: If you have a whole organization of programmers whose sole purpose in life is to create and maintain database applications, iBATIS is a better choice.
[17:30:39] <frohike> I once had a self referencing table representing a tree. I had to update all nodes in a branch under some circumstances.
[17:30:49] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Performance and portability.
[17:30:55] <frohike> If implemented at the java level, the performence is horrible. but with a recursive stored proc, it's good.
[17:31:01] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Interoperability too.
[17:31:05] <frohike> portablity. Stored procs are db dependent
[17:31:05] <solus> pr3d4t0r: when I am very rich, i'll get a dba-department
[17:31:08] <frohike> How is that so?
[17:31:09] <pr3d4t0r> solus: :)
[17:31:16] <solus> for now, i'll hibernate
[17:31:30] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: If all your business logic lives in stored procedures, then you can write front-ends for driving it from any language that supports those calls.
[17:31:58] <pr3d4t0r> Nooooooooooooooooo!
[17:31:59] <Clackwell> ~pr3d4t0r++
[17:32:02] <javabot> pr3d4t0r has a karma level of 121, Clackwell
[17:32:10] <pr3d4t0r> Er, that "nooo" was for another channel.
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[17:32:46] <frohike> You're right. But that's more like what you said, interoperablity. When you said portability, I thought you means db portability
[17:32:58] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: No, I meant application portability.
[17:33:16] <pr3d4t0r> littlezoper: "Coyote Ugly" <-- great movie.
[17:33:33] <jwormy> mmmm coyote ugly
[17:33:35] <Clackwell> sticking the stuff into separate layers allows to port and test them individually.
[17:33:41] <littlezoper> Mr. Dolby? :P
[17:33:41] <Clackwell> (and automatically, too)
[17:33:47] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: but vaaat about db4o?
[17:33:47] <frohike> Then if at any point, the application needs to be ported to a db (a lot of reasons, license fees, etc), I would have to rewrite all my business logic, and perform testing all over again?
[17:34:21] <Clackwell> frohike: you don't with sql spread all over your application source?
[17:34:23] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Yup.
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[17:34:45] <frohike> Clackwell: one of the reason why I'm looking at hibernate
[17:34:46] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: On the upside, if you're doing mission critical stuff, you don't change databases every six months.  You get married to the database that you'd normally use.
[17:34:48] <frohike> To avoid the coupling
[17:35:10] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: At that level you're basically picking between Oracle and DB2.
[17:35:26] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: None of the open-source databases, nor Sybase, are contenders.
[17:35:34] <frohike> pr3d4t0r: I agree. But management can just say, "hey, we're gonna sell this app to X, and he doesn't like Oracle".
[17:35:45] * pr3d4t0r imagines dBMarlon saying that he "could've been a contender".
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[17:36:02] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Only if management is retarded.
[17:36:20] <frohike> or desperate for cash
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[17:36:33] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: I guess you don't plan on answering my question ... ever? :)
[17:36:40] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: If you're in a different business (i.e. selling prepackaged/turnkey software) and not enterprise, you need some kind of insulation layer between the app and the database.
[17:36:46] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Which one?
[17:36:53] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: the one were I asked what about db4o?
[17:37:02] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Oh, what about it?
[17:37:16] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: well, what do you think of it?
[17:37:29] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: It is OODBMS but it seems to solve the problems you discussed
[17:37:40] <Cow_woC> (mostly)
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[17:38:14] <frohike> pr3d4t0r: I realize this discussion is dragging on for you. But still, I find it interesting. For my situation, I can't anticipate what management will do. An insulation layer would cost more dev time, which is frowned upon
[17:38:18] <Cow_woC> I've also learnt that regardless of what you use (Hibernate, Cayenne, db4o) they all handle BLOBs extremely poorly. The only way to do this is store the BLOB in an external file and only store a URL in the database
[17:38:37] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: I don't know; I'll tell the database guys if they've seen/evaluated it and get back to you :)
[17:38:43] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: I'm not a database guy, remember?
[17:38:44] <Cow_woC> frohike: it's your call, but in my experience the ORM layer has cost me *a lot* of time
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[17:38:49] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Nor would I want to be.
[17:39:01] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: heh, ok :) I thought you'd know more about of your past experience with DBs
[17:39:04] <frohike> Cow_woC: Really? So what would you recommend? Plain old JDBC calls?
[17:39:13] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Dude, you just have to figure out the balance.
[17:39:17] <Cow_woC> frohike: Everyone tells me I'm a special use-case
[17:39:36] <Cow_woC> frohike: all I've got to tell you is that Hibernate can potentially introduce *a lot* of extra complexity into your code
[17:39:38] <cheeser> Cow_woC: correction.  we're telling you you're doing screwy/wrong stuff.
[17:39:38] <cheeser> 8^)=
[17:39:46] <cheeser> Cow_woC: wrong!
[17:39:47] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: LOL
[17:39:47] <Cow_woC> cheeser: nope, you didn't have to deal with BLOBs
[17:39:54] <frohike> pr3d4t0r: I'm trying to by asking you guys, which I believe have more experience than me. I will try to weigh out after i get enough input
[17:40:06] <cheeser> most my system has no notion of hibernate.  only my DAO (just one!) and a servlet filter.
[17:40:11] <Cow_woC> frohike: "your mileage will vary based upon your use-case"
[17:40:19] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: If you don't have a really big application, Hibernate is fine.
[17:40:22] <frohike> exactly what i don't want to hear
[17:40:26] <frohike> lol
[17:40:36] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Ditto for low chances of interoperability.
[17:40:42] <Cow_woC> cheeser: How do you abstract away the concept of session flushing which only occurs under Hibernate?
[17:40:44] <Clackwell> plain jdbc or hibernate, wouldn't you have a separate db access layer in both cases?
[17:40:46] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Look at iBATIS then.
[17:40:49] <Cow_woC> cheeser: i.e. flush every 20 inserts, etc
[17:40:51] <Clackwell> +anyway
[17:41:00] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: Hibernate is just a bit better than others.
[17:41:16] <cheeser> we flush in the dao.
[17:41:19] <pr3d4t0r> frohike: The bad things about Hibernate are its associations with the JBoss politics, not the product itself.
[17:41:35] <Cow_woC> frohike: the downside of Hibernate is lack of support. When you get stuck, you're alone. The downside of Cayenne is less features, you have to implement more logic on your own.
[17:42:13] <Cow_woC> cheeser: I'd have to revisit my code, but there were cases where it didn't really make sense to hide behind the DAO
[17:42:16] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: There's no lack of support for Hibernate.
[17:42:23] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: In fact, they have really good support.
[17:42:28] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: You just have to be willing to pay for it.
[17:42:37] <Cow_woC> cheeser: because the entire point of the admin console in some parts is to do special stuff on the DB. If you're going to hide it behind a DAO, the DAO might as well be the admin console
[17:42:39] <cheeser> Cow_woC: i doubt that.
[17:42:50] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: yes yes :) but most people don't pay
[17:43:00] <frohike> Cow_woC: I agree to that :)
[17:43:05] <Cow_woC> frohike: so yeah, if you want to pay for support it'll likely be good, but otherwise it is nonexistant
[17:43:20] <Cow_woC> anyway, I've got to run :) back in an hour or so
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[17:43:21] <ricky_clarkson> Cow_woC: So?
[17:43:28] <R3d> hi
[17:43:38] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Then don't blame your lack of support on Hibernate; if you're doing something important, and Hibernate is critical for it, and you really need support, then bite the bullet.
[17:43:39] <ricky_clarkson> Do they prevent other people from providing support?
[17:43:41] <frohike> Well, I'm going to evaluate iBatis.
[17:44:04] <cheeser> frohike: give it a few weeks and Cow_woC will have used it and discarded it.  P^)=
[17:44:09] <littlezoper> ricky_clarkson: they *do* work for JBoss, now, so who knows? :P
[17:44:13] <ricky_clarkson> Haha, cheeser.
[17:44:25] <pr3d4t0r> ricky_clarkson: "Yes".  JBoss enforces its trademarks and they come down on people offering support on the products they have in their suite.
[17:44:39] <pr3d4t0r> ricky_clarkson: On another topic:  Are you running anything on port 8000 of lavender?
[17:44:42] <Cow_woC> ricky_clarkson: the point isn't whether they prevent people from offering support (which they do by being super anal on their discussion forum) but rather that at the end of the day it is nonexistant for whatever reason
[17:44:55] <ricky_clarkson> pr3d4t0r: Not afaik.  Nothing responds when you telnet to it either.
[17:44:56] <R3d> I have a double a=18 and when I do this: a+=0.01 for more then 2 times I get this result(when I print it) a=18 (at first) a=18.01 (after one sum) a=18.020000000000003
[17:44:57] <littlezoper> Cow_woC: have you given them money?
[17:44:58] <Cow_woC> pr3d4t0r: yeah, except I'm trying to start my own business with very little funds. Anyway, point well taken
[17:44:59] <R3d> why?
[17:45:20] <ricky_clarkson> R3d: Because double can't represent 18.01.
[17:45:28] <ricky_clarkson> Or 18.02
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[17:45:38] <R3d> what should I use then?
[17:45:44] <ricky_clarkson> double
[17:45:49] <ricky_clarkson> Is this money?
[17:45:53] <R3d> how?
[17:45:54] <R3d> no..
[17:46:04] <ricky_clarkson> R3d: Ignore the error.
[17:46:11] <R3d> can't
[17:46:15] <pr3d4t0r> ricky_clarkson: Well, you'd asked me to open the port in the firewall a while ago.
[17:46:16] <ricky_clarkson> R3d: Or rather, define why it matters.
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[17:46:44] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: Get "Hibernate Quickly" by mr_smith.
[17:46:45] <R3d> I have to divide all the doubles (on two digit precisely) with anothe double..
[17:46:57] <cheeser> BigDecimal
[17:47:25] <eidolon> grrrr.
[17:47:31] <R3d> 18.9 can be divided with 0.9 but 18.9000000000012 can't
[17:47:33] <littlezoper> cheeser: beat me to it :)
[17:47:37] <frohike> After 5 minutes looking at the developer guide of ibatis, I looks like it's a SQL mapper. Correct me if I'm wrong, hibernate looks much cleaner
[17:47:42] <R3d> that's why I cannot ignore the error
[17:47:43] <frohike> And support like pagination
[17:47:49] <littlezoper> ~tell R3d about javadoc BigDecimal
[17:47:49] <javabot> R3d, please see java.math.BigDecimal: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/math/BigDecimal.html
[17:48:19] <pr3d4t0r> ricky_clarkson: I closed 8000 and 2356.  You'd wanted them open for some school thing a while ago.
[17:48:22] <eidolon> can i tell via 'jar' whether a jar file is signed or not?
[17:48:24] <roots_> R3d: the relative error is small
[17:48:28] <roots_> you might need BigDecimal
[17:48:29] <ricky_clarkson> pr3d4t0r: 2356 I remember.
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[17:48:46] <R3d> ok will do it..thanks
[17:48:47] <pr3d4t0r> ricky_clarkson: Next time, please tell me when you're done with ports :)
[17:49:12] <ricky_clarkson> pr3d4t0r: Will do, sorry.
[17:49:16] <pr3d4t0r> ricky_clarkson: I don't like to have things open in the firewall for no reason.  No point in making it easier for an attacker to track vulnerabilities. :)
[17:49:19] <pr3d4t0r> ricky_clarkson: No worries.
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[17:50:14] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter!!!
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[17:50:26] <Sou|cutter> pr3d4t0r!!!
[17:50:26] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: He, he, he... you came in just as I was flushing the firewall/NAT.  Sorry.
[17:50:36] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: That's what that 15-second gap was about.
[17:50:38] <Sou|cutter> pr3d4t0r: no worries.  I wondered what that lag was ;)
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[17:50:50] <cored> pr3d4t0r: are you here
[17:50:59] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: Hej, I'm making a change to "The Tesla Testament".
[17:51:03] <pr3d4t0r> cored: Busy.
[17:51:05] <cored> :-)
[17:51:06] <pr3d4t0r> cored: Ping me in 45 minutes.
[17:51:10] <pr3d4t0r> cored: Don't call her.
[17:51:10] <cored> je
[17:51:13] <cored> oki doki
[17:51:15] <cored> no i won't
[17:51:21] <Sou|cutter> pr3d4t0r: big change I take it?
[17:51:21] <cored> she told me she want to get back with me now
[17:51:24] <cored> because she miss me
[17:51:30] <R3d> roots_ yes but I can't do it..couse I nned if the result is an integer (I do it with number%1 == 0). .
[17:51:36] <cored> and i said we have to talk about it and she just drop messenger and did it too
[17:51:38] 
[17:51:38] <cored> :-
[17:51:41] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: More or less.  I'm skipping the first love scene and the limo ride and sitting down, introducing the speaker part.
[17:52:06] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: The novel describes what's going on in one paragraph, the the terrorist attack ensues.
[17:52:28] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: The love scene is played back as a flashback when Francis is at the cemetery waiting for Jones.
[17:52:41] <Sou|cutter> pr3d4t0r: ah, that sounds good... the beginning of the book is pretty important to hook the reader in
[17:52:46] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter:  I just need to start with a gory bit right off the bat.  The rest of the book stays the same.
[17:53:10] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: Let's go to the other channel.
[17:55:02] <Peeloo> has someone got an idea why my Logger (from java.util.logging) is printing twice the same line?
[17:55:17] <pr3d4t0r> OKi peeps, have a great day.
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[17:56:18] <Fox_1_> hi all
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[17:56:37] <Fox_1_> how can i make windows service?
[17:56:40] <Sou|cutter> Peeloo: maybe it's configured to print to System.out and System.err ?
[17:56:54] <pr3d4t0r> Cow_woC: http://thejbossissue.blogspot.com/
[17:58:24] <Sou|cutter> pr3d4t0r: bah, who cares to read sour grapes
[17:58:33] <Fox_1_> ?
[17:58:37] <cheeser> go Rickard!
[17:58:54] <cheeser> Fox_1_: JavaServiceWrapper
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[17:59:04] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: I thought that was a very thoughtful write up.
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[17:59:29] <Fox_1_> cheeser, hello:) is it program or API?
[17:59:29] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: I don't have a very high opinion of the minds behind JBoss since Marc Fleury asked me "what does Wal-Mart do?"
[17:59:56] <Sou|cutter> pr3d4t0r: what DOES walmart do?
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[17:59:58] <Clackwell> pr3d4t0r: i hear he's ex-french. that might explain.
[18:00:04] <cheeser> Fox_1_: it's a program.  google.
[18:00:04] <roots_> jboss are going nuts
[18:00:05] <doc|work> Sou|cutter: trample civil rights
[18:00:07] * doc|work runs
[18:00:10] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: Yup.
[18:00:11] <roots_> sued some german company because they offered jboss training
[18:00:15] <Fox_1_> cheeser, ok.
[18:00:19] <roots_> jboss is a registered trademark
[18:00:20] <Fox_1_> cheeser, thanks
[18:00:22] <teralaser> You should have acted like a real cosmopolitan and said : "Same as Carrefour"
[18:00:23] <cheeser> np
[18:00:27] <roots_> hell, we aren't even allowed to type jboss here
[18:00:28] <Clackwell> roots_: haha, that's the spirit
[18:00:32] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: After I heard for 10 days from three or four JBoss guys how interested Fleury was in talking to us directly, yada yada yada.
[18:00:41] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: Nathalie is cool though.
[18:00:42] <roots_> it was on heise.de (german newssite) and created some uproar
[18:00:53] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: And Gavin is cool when he starts listening.
[18:00:58] <Sou|cutter> pr3d4t0r: I guess I already have heard enough jboss griping that thejbossissue is nothing new to me
[18:01:11] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: He, he, he...
[18:01:16] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: Geronimo, baby.
[18:01:24] <pr3d4t0r> Sou|cutter: Met those guys last week.  Very clued in.
[18:01:28] <pchapman> roots_, What do you use instead of JBoss?
[18:01:42] <pr3d4t0r> Anyway...
[18:01:47] * pr3d4t0r left.
[18:01:58] <Clackwell> bye pred
[18:02:16] <cored> Sou|cutter: Geronimo
[18:02:16] <eidolon> ant sign-jar
[18:02:19] <eidolon> gah.  sorry
[18:02:27] <Sou|cutter> cored: eh?
[18:02:36] <cored> Sou|cutter: J2EE server
[18:02:40] <cored> Sou|cutter: did you test it ?
[18:03:35] *** dewaard has quit IRC
[18:03:43] <Sou|cutter> no, I haven't.  I'm somewhat interested in getting involved with OpenEJB to learn EJB, but otherwise I've not really had the opportunity
[18:03:52] <eidolon> you konw.  it's hard to run a weblaunched swing app that's supposed to talk to a webservices host... AND NOT INCLUDE THE DANGED SOAP LAYER.
[18:03:56] * eidolon mutters and edits buildfiles
[18:04:49] <cored> Sou|cutter: OpenEJB
[18:04:57] <cored> Sou|cutter: EJB's are a bit complicated
[18:05:29] <littlezoper> EJB 2.0 is horrible.  more XML than java code. :P
[18:06:15] <eidolon> littlezoper: wht's the difference?  *ducks*
[18:06:34] <littlezoper> hehe
[18:06:57] <littlezoper> at my last job, we did a little EJB on WebLogic.  did *not* enjoy the experience :)
[18:07:14] <littlezoper> JBuilder helped with the nitty gritty a bit, but it was still painful
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[18:11:28] <EExtasEE> <pchapman> roots_, What do you use instead of JBoss?<--JonAS
[18:12:06] <ricflazz> does the java mail api act as its own smtp server?
[18:12:38] <ricflazz> or does it just use the OS's mail sending capabilities?
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[18:13:10] <Clackwell> ricflazz: what if the os doesn't have any? :)
[18:13:37] <ricflazz> ok duh
[18:13:39] <ricflazz> thanks
[18:13:40] <Clackwell> ricflazz: does smtp, etc. itself, last i heard. that makes the implementation kind of cross-platform, perhaps
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[18:14:48] <akahn> How do I print a double without it being displayed in scientific notation? e.g., I want my double displayed as .912438913491823948...
[18:15:02] <Clackwell> akahn: see numberformat and co
[18:17:16] <akahn> Is there a more elegant way of saying 0.0000000000000000000, that would basically print the dicimal out completely?
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[18:17:33] <Clackwell> akahn: parseexception on that
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[18:18:11] <tmh> akahn, can you clarify your last question, I didn't quite understand it.
[18:18:42] <cheeser> javabot: tell akahn about javadoc DecimalFormat
[18:18:43] <javabot> akahn, please see java.text.DecimalFormat: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/text/DecimalFormat.html
[18:19:22] <akahn> I mean if I use DecimalFormat("0.0000000000"), the decimal is printed out to a certain length, but I would like to print out as many digits as it has.
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[18:19:34] <akahn> Clackwell: what does that mean?
[18:19:36] <tmh> Doesn't 1.5 have a printf?
[18:20:06] <cheeser> yes
[18:20:36] * tmh knows that won't solve akahn's problem, it was just a question.
[18:20:47] <Clackwell> akahn: what problem are you trying to solve?
[18:21:02] <Clackwell> "i want to print an infinite number of 0s" ?
[18:21:12] <roots_> :)
[18:21:26] <Clackwell> that'd be one sneaky way to it :)
[18:21:31] <roots_> 0.5, 0.25, 0.125 are nicely represented in a binary fashion
[18:21:32] <ricflazz> tmh: String.format
[18:21:32] <roots_> 0.1 isnt though
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[18:22:31] <akahn> I'm dividing two integers, the result is a double. Instead of printing in scientific notation, I want it to print as a decimal.
[18:22:37] <tmh> ricflazz, that is a nice accomodation for us troglodytes who are comfortable with C.
[18:23:03] <tmh> akahn, minor point, 0.000000 is not scientific notation.
[18:23:08] <Clackwell> akahn: double d1 = 0.0; double d2 = 0.0000; <- which has more 0s after the decimal point now, d1 or d2?
[18:23:11] <ricflazz> i've never was a C person, but i started using it and i live it much more than + ... + ...
[18:23:35] <roots_> i consider that syntactic sugar
[18:23:37] <akahn> tmh: I'm aware of this, but when I print my double, it prints in scientific notation.
[18:23:47] <roots_> printf is ok, but with numberformat you can explicitly control the locale in a different manner
[18:23:50] <roots_> so it still has its place
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[18:23:52] <cheeser> akahn: use DecimalFormat like I suggested
[18:23:59] <Clackwell> akahn: read up on ...what cheeser said?
[18:23:59] <roots_> functionalitywise ... not syntaxwise
[18:24:05] <tmh> akahn, ah, yes, I'm looking at the javadoc on BigDecimal now.
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[18:24:49] <akahn> Yes, I intend to use DecimalFormat, that's what I'm talking about when I say 0.000, I'm not talking about an actual value as everyone seems to think.
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[18:26:49] <Clackwell> akahn: don't you think that java deciding to use the scientific notation is on purpose in some cases? imagine values that lead to 10000 digits being output when printed.
[18:26:54] <roots_> you cannot represent binary values as decimals per se
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[18:27:07] <roots_> neither vice versa
[18:27:47] <akahn> Clackwell: yeah
[18:28:05] <roots_> i got this nice office for myself now
[18:28:08] <roots_> about 40m^2
[18:28:21] <roots_> 8 people left here only in this approx. 240m^2 office
[18:29:16] <ricflazz> what is the big difference between something like jboss, j2ee and tomcat?
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[18:29:51] <roots_> ricflazz: i wish i knew
[18:30:34] <akahn> alright, thanks.
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[18:30:45] <Clackwell> ricflazz: j2ee is a collection of specs. jboss and tomcat are actual, partial implementation of these specs.
[18:31:02] <Clackwell> class vs. instance
[18:31:02] <cheeser> ricflazz: jboss is a j2ee implementation.  tomcat is a servlet/jsp implementation
[18:31:18] <cheeser> Clackwell: actually jboss is a full implmentation iirc
[18:31:18] <ricflazz> Clackwell: thanks, what about the j2ee app server you can download from sun?
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[18:31:35] <ricflazz> j2ee has the specs for servlet/jsp?
[18:31:57] <ricflazz> but servlet/jsp is not the whole j2ee?
[18:32:33] * mohadib gives Clackwell some man love
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[18:33:47] <Clackwell> cheeser: aren't servlets and jsp part of the j2ee spec stack too? from that point of view...:)
[18:33:51] <Clackwell> mohadib: uhm...
[18:34:03] <mohadib> Clackwell: dont fight your feelings
[18:34:07] <Clackwell> ricflazz: no, they aren't. see j2ee tutorial at sun's perhaps
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[18:34:18] * Clackwell decapitates mohadib
[18:34:27] <Clackwell> alright, that felt good. :)
[18:34:34] <mohadib> Clackwell: that was a tad hostile
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[18:35:26] <Clackwell> mohadib: but you told me...:)
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[18:35:45] <R3d> I found a way to avoid the bigDecimal...
[18:35:49] <R3d>  a = Float.parseFloat(nf.format(a));
[18:35:57] <R3d> it could be done with double too..
[18:36:03] <R3d> just to let you know :)
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[18:38:30] <cheeser> R3d: print out that value now.
[18:38:37] <cheeser> System.out.println(a);
[18:38:59] <R3d> it with two decimal..
[18:39:30] <cheeser> does it?  fair enough.  i expected some precision problems.
[18:39:33] <R3d> it work nice..
[18:39:39] <cheeser> but if you want precision, float is not the one to use.
[18:39:49] <R3d> I wanted only two decimal..
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[18:40:35] <R3d> float does it fine..
[18:40:48] <R3d> the nf is set to round on two decimals..
[18:41:11] <R3d> couse I allways get a number like 18.0100000352 this isn't a problem
[18:43:51] <tmh> R3d, aren't you trying using BigDecimal to get the exact representation, though?
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[18:46:33] <snow_ru> hi
[18:46:34] <snow_ru> hi
[18:46:34] <snow_ru> hi
[18:46:37] <snow_ru> :)
[18:46:51] <snow_ru> cheeser, won't say hello to snow_ru ?
[18:47:31] <cheeser> um.  hi.
[18:47:56] <snow_ru> are you a programmer ?
[18:48:09] <tmh> No, he just drinks a lot of coffee.
[18:50:53] <snow_ru> hic
[18:51:11] <snow_ru> it takes so much time to implement all methods of Contenthandler
[18:51:26] <snow_ru> org.xml.sax.contenthandler
[18:52:18] <tmh> snow_ru, then just implement the ones you need and make dummy methods for the ones you don't.
[18:53:03] <snow_ru> tmh, I have to implement them..
[18:53:13] <snow_ru> at least write them down with empty {}
[18:53:24] <snow_ru> it takes time & useless...
[18:53:28] <tmh> snow_ru, then quit wasting time on IRC and get to work!
[18:53:33] <snow_ru> :)
[18:53:39] <snow_ru> thanks
[18:53:50] <tmh> I'm training for management.
[18:54:11] <pchapman> thm, You're doing good.  You'll be a phb in no time.
[18:55:00] <pchapman> Eclipse has the feature that lets you stub out methods from parent classes.  I suspect most other java IDEs do as well.
[18:55:07] <cheeser> snow_ru: am *I* a programmer?  are you asking me or someone else?
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[19:07:01] <armenb> hey, anyone here have experience generating jar files with IBM's jar ?
[19:07:24] <armenb> i am having problems getting the -C option (for changing directories) to work
[19:07:49] <armenb> so actually, it completely ignores the -C option as far as I can tell, and i was wondering if someone could give me a headsup to its usage.
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[19:08:35] <armenb> basically i want it to change directories before creating a jar
[19:08:52] <littlezoper> what's wrong with the JDK jar util?
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[19:09:38] <armenb> jar cf blah.jar -C /some/directory foo/bar/Hello.java doesn't work as I'd expect
[19:09:52] <armenb> it tries finding foo/bar/Hello.java in the directory that i am running jar in
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[19:10:03] <armenb> as opposed to changing to /some/directory first, like i think it would
[19:10:04] <pr3d4t0r> littlezoper: I don't think there's anything wrong with it per se; it's more that mr. armenb has the IBM JDK.
[19:10:35] <armenb> oh, is there a preferred version of jdk i should be using?
[19:10:39] <littlezoper> pr3d4t0r: that's what I was trying to figure out. :)  why use IBM's when Sun's works just fine.  hadn't thought of that situation though :P
[19:10:43] <pr3d4t0r> armenb: Can you please paste its man page or jar -help to the pastebin?
[19:10:59] <pr3d4t0r> littlezoper: Choice is good :)
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[19:11:08] <littlezoper> armenb: i see little reason to use something other thatn sun's, but some shops do use the IBM JDK, so i guess that's a valid question :P
[19:11:12] <littlezoper> pr3d4t0r: that it is
[19:11:18] <pr3d4t0r> littlezoper: I use Apple's Java but ours is command-line-switch compatible with Sun's.
[19:11:25] <littlezoper> i just forgot that other people put out jdks :P
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[19:12:23] <armenb> pastebinned.
[19:12:44] <armenb> well look at that. ibm's command line options are different.
[19:12:47] <armenb> that's retarded.
[19:12:47] <armenb> heh
[19:12:50] <littlezoper> haha
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[19:13:38] <ricflazz> if you think they butchered the java cli, try tivoli
[19:13:44] <armenb> :(
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[19:15:35] <armenb> is there an ibm java channel so i can bitch? heh.
[19:15:37] <armenb> =)
[19:18:21] <bowyakka> wow fisheye rocks
[19:25:11] <pr3d4t0r> armenb: Yeah.
[19:25:21] <pr3d4t0r> armenb: Apple is compatible with Sun's JDK :)
[19:26:10] <pr3d4t0r> armenb: OKi, the -C option changes where the root package is, not where the file itself is.
[19:26:33] <pr3d4t0r> armenb: And you can bitch here.  Everyone else does.
[19:26:53] <Clackwell> damnit, friggin' ibm jdk crap!
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[19:28:45] <pchapman> Everyone here even bitches about stuff not even remotely related to Java.  :-)
[19:28:56] <ajs> Hi. I don't suppose there's a data structure in Java that deals with regions or segments (flat, data; not graphical)? I've got a class with "offset" and "length" members, it'd be nice if there was some way to automatically have it ignore subsumed regions and extend overlapping regions..
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[19:29:23] <pr3d4t0r> ajs: Nope.
[19:29:41] <ajs> Darn. It's not difficult to implement myself, I guess.
[19:29:49] <ksnash> i am trying to read in a jpg file and it involves converting from byte to char.  The 0x00 is being read as 0x20.  0x20 is in stream how can you tell the difference?
[19:29:52] <pchapman> ajs, A little googling might get you a library that has it.
[19:30:00] <ajs> Can't use libraries.
[19:30:02] <ksnash> make that int to char
[19:30:06] <ajs> It's a CS assignment
[19:30:09] <pr3d4t0r> ksnash: You make the difference yourself :)
[19:30:24] <pr3d4t0r> ajs: Ah!  So go do your homework then :)
[19:30:24] <pchapman> ksnash, Oops.  Time to make it yourself.
[19:30:49] * pchapman should have known it was homework.
[19:30:50] <ajs> I _am_ doing it! I just like to make the solution as short as possible.
[19:30:58] <ajs> Java has craploads of stuff in it for facilitating that.
[19:31:04] <ajs> Just not regions ;-(
[19:31:13] <pr3d4t0r> ksnash: Read the file as bytes, then convert each one at a time using casting and (byX && 0xff).
[19:31:13] <littlezoper> ajs: goo call.  "Code is bad" :)
[19:31:17] <pr3d4t0r> Er,
[19:31:20] <ksnash> i changed all the 0x20 to 00 and the image came up but lots of different colors in places.
[19:31:22] <pr3d4t0r> ksnash: Read the file as bytes, then convert each one at a time using casting and (byX & 0xff).
[19:32:37] <ksnash> right now it is current _char =(char)BufferedReader.read();
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[19:33:40] <pr3d4t0r> ksnash: char c = (char) (bufferedReader.read() & 0xff);
[19:33:57] <ksnash> The source is an URLConnection.
[19:33:57] <pr3d4t0r> ksnash: Also, watch out for Endinanness.
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[19:45:10] <JavaGeek> greetings, bytecodes!(tm)
[19:50:09] <mohadib> who you calling bytecode!
[19:50:11] <mohadib> ;)
[19:51:07] <cheeser> everyone knows that mohadib is one bit shy of a byte, so to speak.
[19:51:55] <mohadib> heh
[19:53:44] <pr3d4t0r> cheeser: I thought he was a few bytes shy of a full system, actually.
[19:53:53] <ajs> Groan.
[19:53:56] <pr3d4t0r> cheeser: If you know what I mean...
[19:54:05] <mohadib> ~eye pr3d4t0r
[19:54:06] * javabot eyes pr3d4t0r
[19:54:10] <mohadib> take that
[19:54:34] <cheeser> javabot: do questions mohadib's manhood.
[19:54:34] * javabot does questions mohadib's manhood
[19:55:01] <mohadib> wtf lol
[19:55:30] * mohadib shows javabot his GUnit
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[19:58:03] <ricflazz> gorillas only have about 1 inch
[19:58:03] <ajs> Guys, if I've got a message buffer, and I can recieve bits of it at random from an InputStream, am I best allocating a message buffer and some Collection of regions, or having the latter store the fragments itself and recompose overlapping/subsumed regions, or something else?
[19:59:00] <ajs> I need to be able to tell if I've received regions already..
[19:59:23] <mohadib> er..
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[20:13:11] <FaeLLe> guys i have several JButton's on a JPanel with text of different sizes/lengths i want to make the buttons equal in size so i thought GridLayout would be appropriate but the thing is the number of buttons can vary as when the user decides and when i add new buttons and do a pack() it should resize the buttons rite ?
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[20:13:29] <FaeLLe> apparently it wont do it...
[20:15:57] <mohadib> FaeLLe: i use GBL and set the minium , maximum , and preferred sizes
[20:16:09] <mohadib> and set the weight x,y as needed
[20:16:39] <FaeLLe> but then id have to calculate the size of buttons each time i add etc ?
[20:17:05] <mohadib> na , thats why you set the weight and size
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[20:18:02] <mohadib> the layout manager will resize as needed but everything will be proportionate
[20:18:18] <mohadib> so , set the size for the smallest possible window size
[20:18:58] <FaeLLe> hmm how would i calculate size from length of string :)
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[20:19:18] <FaeLLe> they can load stuff from a file that will place each line of file on a button
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[20:22:47] <mohadib> FaeLLe: well , im my exp.  you can fit very little text on a button
[20:22:57] <mohadib> unless you make the button huge
[20:23:09] <mohadib> i would put the text under the button
[20:23:12] <mohadib> but.. either way
[20:24:14] <aiyaiyairc> or make it a buttontip
[20:25:00] <mohadib> you can use   g2d.setFont(f);    FontMetrics fm = g2d.getFontMetrics(); int stringWidth = fm.stringWidth(s)
[20:25:08] <mohadib> that will get the width of a string
[20:25:13] <mohadib> with a given font
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[20:43:05] <mohadib> \0/
[20:43:44] <Honk^away> should work without setfont though? :)
[20:44:10] <mohadib> well , it has to know what font your using no?
[20:44:24] <mohadib> or it will use the default font to determine the string size
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[20:46:02] <Honk^away> yeah
[20:46:08] <Storkme> is it possible to get the name of the class from the instance of it?
[20:46:12] <Honk^away> the default font should work just fine though ;)
[20:46:20] <mohadib> .getClass.getName()
[20:46:20] <Honk^away> Storkme: getClass
[20:46:21] <ernimril> Storkme: yes
[20:46:28] <mohadib> .getClass().getName()
[20:47:44] <mohadib> Storkme: you're not matching against the class name to decide what type to cast an object to are you?
[20:47:56] <cheeser> javabot: be API barbie
[20:47:56] <javabot> Javadoc is *hard*!
[20:48:01] <mohadib> haha
[20:48:06] <mohadib> lol
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[20:51:34] <Storkme> thanks people
[20:52:09] <mohadib> Storkme: you're not matching against the class name to decide what type to cast an object to are you?
[20:52:20] <ricflazz> if we get our proj into prod today my boss promised champange
[20:52:27] <mohadib> nice
[20:52:37] <jwormy> champange?
[20:52:40] <jwormy> wtf, mate
[20:52:42] <Storkme> no mohadib
[20:52:44] <Storkme> i'm not
[20:52:47] <mohadib> Storkme: word
[20:52:48] <ricflazz> champagne
[20:52:50] <mohadib> jwormy: sup mang
[20:52:52] <Storkme> word indeed
[20:52:52] <ricflazz> sorry
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[20:53:10] <mohadib> jwormy: did you get that paper written?
[20:53:10] <Storkme> don't you just hate chavs?
[20:53:16] <mohadib> chavs?
[20:53:18] <jwormy> mohadib, yea started at 9this morning
[20:53:23] <mohadib> haha nice
[20:53:27] 
[20:53:28] <Storkme> druggies/alcoholics/thieving scum
[20:53:31] 
[20:53:32] <jwormy> wrote it between 9-9:30 hoped on my scooter and jetted to class
[20:53:32] 
[20:53:40] 
[20:53:45] <jwormy> snow_ru, please stop
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[20:53:49] <snow_ru> sorry
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[20:53:56] <mohadib> Storkme: er i smoke put ... but i dont so any ot that other stuff
[20:54:01] <mohadib> pot even
[20:54:19] <jcscoobyrs> I don't smoke anything.  It's deadly.
[20:54:23] <mohadib> haha
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[20:54:35] <mohadib> jcscoobyrs: it will put hair on your chest
[20:54:35] <jwormy> and the asshat speaks up
[20:54:38] <cheeser> smoking is for retards.
[20:54:44] <Storkme> mohadib: i have nothing against pot
[20:54:45] <mohadib> lol
[20:54:52] <Storkme> it's tabacco that bothers me
[20:54:55] <mohadib> ahh
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[20:54:58] <mohadib> yes tabacoo
[20:54:58] <PPSD> hi
[20:55:00] <mohadib> is lame
[20:55:02] <Storkme> i love my ipod.
[20:55:04] <jcscoobyrs> jwormy: Die spawn of satan.
[20:55:08] <mohadib> lol
[20:55:12] * jwormy hugs jcscoobyrs
[20:55:14] <Storkme> i just got an ipod
[20:55:16] <jcscoobyrs> ;)
[20:55:18] <Storkme> it's like, really uber cool
[20:55:27] * mohadib tips his asshat to jwormy
[20:55:33] <Storkme> woot for asshats!
[20:55:40] <jcscoobyrs> ~asshat
[20:55:48] <mohadib> ~dict asshat
[20:55:55] <Storkme> broken!
[20:56:00] <mohadib> cheesers dial up sucks
[20:56:05] <jwormy> haha
[20:56:06] <javabot> jcscoobyrs, I have no idea what asshat is.
[20:56:08] <javabot> mohadib, dict asshat is http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=asshat
[20:56:16] <jcscoobyrs> ~jwormy
[20:56:17] <javabot> jcscoobyrs, I have no idea what jwormy is.
[20:56:35] <mohadib> jwormy: dict.org has your picture!
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[20:56:45] <PPSD> i'm trying to allocate 4 arrays with a total size of ~8mb... this causes an OutOfMemoryError when trying to create the 4th array... why??
[20:56:45] <jwormy> yeaaa righttt
[20:56:46] <jcscoobyrs> ~jwormy
[20:56:46] <javabot> jcscoobyrs, jwormy is an asshat.
[20:56:52] <mohadib> javabot: lOLOL
[20:56:53] <javabot> mohadib, I have no idea what lOLOL is.
[20:56:57] <jwormy> jcscoobyrs, if i did that i would get kicked in a heartbeat..
[20:57:00] <mohadib> er jcscoobyrs
[20:57:06] <ernimril> PPSD: testcase?
[20:57:14] <Storkme> mohadib
[20:57:15] <PPSD> ernimril: what is testcase?
[20:57:16] <jcscoobyrs> jwormy: I have the same peon privileges you have.  ;)
[20:57:18] <jcscoobyrs> ~jcscoobyrs
[20:57:18] <javabot> jcscoobyrs, jcscoobyrs is some American bloke called Jeremy.  Haha, Jeremy!
[20:57:19] <ernimril> PPSD: how large arrays? what type?
[20:57:28] <mohadib> Storkme: yes
[20:57:28] <ernimril> ~tell PPSD about testcase
[20:57:29] <javabot> PPSD, testcase is a minimal independently runnable program, which demonstrates the problem; see http://www.physci.org/codes/sscce.jsp for details and a HOWTO
[20:57:52] <PPSD> ernimril: i was wrong : 4 int[] arrays, around 8 million items total
[20:57:55] <Storkme> err, wait
[20:57:59] <Storkme> one sec
[20:58:10] <ernimril> PPSD: the default java max heap size is 64 MB
[20:58:31] <PPSD> ernimril: how to increase? (and 8mil*4 = 32 not 64?)
[20:58:35] <ernimril> PPSD: 4 * 8 * 4 = 128 MB
[20:58:52] <PPSD> ernimril: no 2 million items each
[20:59:07] <ernimril> PPSD: java -Xmx512m your.Program
[20:59:40] <PPSD> ernimril: thanks
[21:01:34] <ernimril> PPSD: "java -X" will give you some help on more options
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[21:02:19] <Storkme> hooray for object orientation
[21:02:34] <mohadib> lol
[21:02:40] <Storkme> it's so cool
[21:02:42] <bockman> how do can i get an integer that i added to an ArrayList object back
[21:02:45] <Storkme> almost as cool as my ipod
[21:02:53] <mohadib> bockman: get()
[21:03:15] <bockman> get() doesn't return an integer...it returns an Object
[21:03:18] <Storkme> if you didn't set the generics you'll have to specify it as an int
[21:03:36] <mohadib> bockman: depends if your uising generics , cast if not
[21:03:42] <bockman> what is generics?
[21:03:43] <Storkme> Integer i = (Integer) arraylist.get();
[21:03:52] <Storkme> ~tell bockman about generics
[21:03:52] <javabot> bockman, generics is http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/generics.html
[21:03:59] <Storkme> they're very useful
[21:03:59] <bockman> ok thank you
[21:04:03] <Storkme> welcome
[21:05:44] <Storkme> (omg i helped someone!!!!!)
[21:05:49] <Storkme> ~storkme++
[21:05:49] <javabot> Changing one's own karma is not permitted.
[21:05:51] <javabot> storkme has a karma level of -1, Storkme
[21:05:55] <Storkme> owned
[21:06:23] <mohadib> haha
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[21:07:00] <ernimril> Storkme: seems like you still have a few rules to learn... :-)
[21:07:07] <Storkme> probably
[21:07:15] <Storkme> i feel i deserve rep though
[21:07:18] <Storkme> i actually helped someone
[21:07:52] <Storkme> it's a big thing for me
[21:07:52] <ajs> Doing so should be reward enough!
[21:07:53] <cheeser> tee hee hee
[21:07:56] <cheeser> you lost karma.
[21:08:17] <cheeser> i added that little thorn.
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[21:09:41] <Storkme> bleh
[21:09:43] <Storkme> disconnected
[21:10:06] <Storkme> you know the best thing about an ipod with portable speakers?
[21:10:12] <mohadib> cheeser: nice
[21:10:26] <Storkme> i can take it with me when i go to the toilet.
[21:10:26] <Storkme> brbn
[21:10:28] <Storkme> brb*
[21:10:28] <jwormy> Storkme, its easily smashed?
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[21:12:03] <ksnash> Ok what is the easiest way to display a jpeg stored as a String?
[21:12:34] <ernimril> ksnash: why do you have a String?
[21:12:42] <cheeser> ksnash: hahahaha
[21:13:07] <cHaoTiCa> heh
[21:13:14] <cHaoTiCa> a jpeg string?
[21:13:22] <cHaoTiCa> compressed ascii art?
[21:13:26] <ksnash> The jpeg image is between --WINBONDBOUDARY <cr> content image/jpeg
[21:13:47] <cs02rm0> does anyone know why i can't do reverse dns lookups on linux in java?
[21:13:49] <ksnash> continuously loaded from internet source.
[21:13:56] <cHaoTiCa> so it's gotta be decoded
[21:14:11] <ksnash> find markers, save what is between and the display.
[21:14:14] <ernimril> ksnash: do not store the image in javas memory as a string
[21:14:50] <Storkme> jwormy: i hope not
[21:14:52] <ernimril> ksnash: ImageIO.read (InputStream) and then a JLabel with an ImageIcon
[21:15:26] <ksnash> The image processor haven't liked the streams
[21:15:27] <mohadib> ernimril: nice
[21:15:36] * mohadib is happy not to have to search google for that
[21:16:10] <ernimril> ksnash: perhaps you can not use the stream you have, then create a wrapper stream that unpacks the image data correctly...
[21:16:18] <ksnash> Can it handle a continuous stream?
[21:16:25] <ernimril> ksnash: is that a http/mime?
[21:16:37] <cHaoTiCa> sounds like it
[21:16:39] <ernimril> ksnash: tias
[21:17:27] <ksnash> It is an video feed with jpeg images from IP9000 video server.  it combines multiple sources into one feed.
[21:17:49] <cHaoTiCa> ....
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[21:18:05] <cHaoTiCa> sounds quite funky
[21:18:05] <ernimril> ksnash: ImageIO will read one whole image, it will not return until all of the image have been read...
[21:18:37] <ksnash> Then it won't work because the feed is continuous.
[21:19:01] <ksnash> That ws why I am trying to seperate individual images
[21:19:22] <ernimril> ksnash: create an input stream to read the image from
[21:20:01] <ksnash> With the data i have and changing rouge 0x20 to 00 the image can be opened from file.
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[21:20:47] <ksnash> Right now it is bufferedReader using URLCOnnection.
[21:21:26] <cHaoTiCa> .....
[21:22:14] <ernimril> ksnash: when you read binary data you do not want to use a reader!
[21:22:20] <ksnash> I am trying to save the bytes to string thn make bytearrayInputstream then feed it to com.un.image.jpeg.JPEGCodec.JPEGImageDecoder.
[21:22:27] <cHaoTiCa> seems to me if you're reading a jpeg, your Reader should be an InputStream
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[21:23:11] <ksnash> then decode as Buffered image
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[21:23:59] <ksnash> The decoder can't handle the URLConnection stream either.  It wants one image.
[21:24:19] <ernimril> ksnash: if you use a reader you will get random image corruption
[21:24:39] <cHaoTiCa> ksnash.....abandon Strings entirely.  they are not meant for handling bytes (as in binary data)
[21:24:46] <cHaoTiCa> which includes jpegs
[21:25:12] <ksnash> If I don't buffer the stream then I don't know what is current image.
[21:25:30] <cHaoTiCa> isn't there a BufferedinputStream?
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[21:26:17] <cheeser> there's one place that'll tel you...
[21:26:35] <pchapman> cheeser, The wizard of Oz?
[21:26:38] <psycho666> hi. are java programs slower than others because of the virtual machine ?
[21:26:39] <cHaoTiCa> i know the answer.  it was semi-rhetorical.  :)
[21:26:58] <ernimril> psycho666: trying to troll?
[21:27:03] <pchapman> psycho666, hi.  Are you a troll?
[21:27:10] <psycho666> ernimril: no, it's a question
[21:27:18] <cHaoTiCa> psycho666....if it's well written, a java program can be as fast as c++, if not faster
[21:27:24] * pchapman looks for green, scaly skin.
[21:27:46] * ksnash eats elf walking on his bridge.
[21:27:48] <cHaoTiCa> java programs are slower than others because most java coders are lazy or stupid :)
[21:27:49] <cybereal> cHaoTiCa: naturlaly the inverse is true for C++
[21:27:56] <cybereal> er naturally
[21:28:11] <psycho666> but in theory the virtual machine should make any instruction twice slower
[21:28:18] <cheeser> nope
[21:28:23] <ernimril> psycho666: the jvm is not interpreted
[21:28:37] <cHaoTiCa> jit cuts that cost down to almost nothing
[21:28:41] * cheeser nods sagely.
[21:28:48] <psycho666> jit ?
[21:29:01] <pchapman> Just-In-Time compiler.
[21:29:02] <cybereal> psycho666: native compilation of java bytecode "just in time" before execution
[21:29:05] <cHaoTiCa> just-in-time compilation
[21:29:16] <nmx> Just-In-Time compiler
[21:29:25] <pchapman> echo, echo, echo.....
[21:29:30] <nmx> sorry, everyone else was saying it, i just wanted to be popular
[21:29:38] <cybereal> heh I love how people will type their answer out even though it's 30 seconds after three others already answered
[21:29:40] <cHaoTiCa> the code doesn't get recompiled again the next time through, so frequently used code runs at native speed
[21:29:42] <pchapman> ~nmx++
[21:29:43] <javabot> nmx has a karma level of 2, pchapman
[21:29:54] <pchapman> Now you're more popular than you were before.
[21:30:00] <nmx> twice as popular!
[21:30:01] <cHaoTiCa> :)
[21:30:14] <ernimril> and the jvm compiles to the system you are running on, not the i386 you compiled your C code for...
[21:30:27] <nmx> (unless you're one of those gentoo crazies)
[21:30:30] <cHaoTiCa> heh
[21:30:36] <psycho666> ernimril: so ... ?
[21:30:59] <ernimril> psycho666: the jvm can use _all_ modern optimizations there are for _your_ system...
[21:31:08] <cheeser> so.  java does not run appreciably slower (and faster in some cases) than native code.
[21:31:11] <ernimril> psycho666: C code will only use a subset of thoose
[21:31:53] <psycho666> ok thanx
[21:32:20] <pchapman> C code compiled for a generic x86 machine will use only a subset.  C code compiled for your machine specificialy can use all optimizations, if you tell the compiler to use them.
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[21:32:42] <ernimril> pchapman: yes, but if you distribute your program you will compile for some old crappy machine
[21:32:45] <pchapman> But how often do non-gentoo users compile everything for their machine specificaly.
[21:33:03] <pchapman> ernimril, I agree.  I was trying to help make your point.
[21:33:04] <cHaoTiCa> heh.  try compiling xp.  :)
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[21:34:49] <snooplsm> this is great, my program is not even 2 kilobytes
[21:35:06] <cHaoTiCa> heh....yeah
[21:35:06] <MrPrimate> snooplsm, if you don't count the 32MB JRE ;]
[21:35:12] <cHaoTiCa> java rocks like that :)
[21:35:14] <snooplsm> :-)
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[21:37:17] <Storkme> hooray for object orientation
[21:37:26] <cybereal> Storkme: do you have that on a timer?
[21:37:37] <Storkme> no :\ should i ?
[21:37:43] <cybereal> no but why do you keep repeating it?
[21:38:31] <Storkme> because i love oo
[21:38:40] <cybereal> good for you, but I don't think we care
[21:38:49] <cybereal> unless there's some special reason or something
[21:38:51] <Storkme> i bet you do, deep down inside
[21:39:12] <cybereal> I hate OO deep down inside :)
[21:39:25] <Storkme> liar
[21:39:33] <cybereal> I do I just don't know of anything better :)
[21:39:42] <Storkme> pfft
[21:39:43] <Storkme> o_o
[21:39:49] <Storkme> oo is awesome
[21:39:59] <davidw> all the academics wet their britches over Functional Programming
[21:40:40] <cybereal> davidw: functional programming and object orientedness are not mutually exclusive.  See O'Caml for an example.
[21:40:45] <Storkme> some guy at my school is doing his work experience at a computer-building-place
[21:40:55] <Storkme> and he was all proud because they started teacing him vb
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[21:41:13] <cybereal> hahaha
[21:41:13] <Storkme> i would have slapped him but he was too far away
[21:41:15] <ksnash> Visual Basic is for people who think they know how to program.
[21:41:20] <Storkme> EXACTLY!!!!
[21:41:42] <cybereal> I get scared for people when they say they are learning vb.  My mind reacts exactly the same way as if they told me they are working unclothes inside a nuclear reactor core.  Just... shock and fear.
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[21:42:39] <Storkme> vb is a bad thing to learn
[21:42:53] <Storkme> then you'll end up having a warped view of programming languages
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[21:42:57] <cheeser> it's also a bad thing to discuss in ##java...
[21:43:21] <ksnash> Next you need to try ADA.
[21:43:43] <davidw> cybereal, is it pure FP like Haskell, or something more flexible, like scheme?  I looked a bit once, and decided I had enough windmills to tilt at
[21:43:45] <mohadib> no and then
[21:43:51] <ernimril> Storkme: knowing other languages is a good thing....
[21:44:03] <cybereal> davidw: it allows for both pure FP and Imperative coding.  They can blend.
[21:44:24] <davidw> languages you should definitely look at: Scheme, Forth, C, Smalltalk... what else? Haskell?
[21:44:26] <cybereal> davidw: But you never have to leave your cozy functional womb if you don't want to without sacraficing the features.
[21:44:30] <Storkme> ernimril: i know that of course, but i don't see any point in learning vb
[21:44:59] <cybereal> I've looked at scheme... dunno where I'd ever use it.  I didn't like Haskell either, but now I'm wrapping my brain around o'caml.
[21:45:09] <ernimril> Storkme: try prototyping some user interfaces in java, compare that to vb...
[21:45:15] * ksnash learned cpm asm then cpm basic then trs basic then fortran then pscal then c then c++ then JAVA then Visual Basic then Visual C++...
[21:45:19] <davidw> cybereal, can you actually use O'Caml somewhere?
[21:45:40] <davidw> the point of scheme is to argue over which scheme implementation is the best;-) not to actually...get your hands dirty and produce something with it
[21:45:43] <Storkme> my ict teacher said to me "alex, you seem to be very good at computers, would you like to stay after school a few days a week to learn visual basic?" and i just laughed out loud
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[21:46:22] <Sou|cutter> Storkme: you should do it
[21:46:25] <cybereal> davidw: I don't know, some say you can get jobs with o'caml.  Plus, O'Caml seems to have enough library support out there for me to accomplish useful tasks without rewriting the wheel.  But I won't have an opinion on how useful it is until I have actually written something in it.
[21:46:34] <ksnash> Mrs. So in So you seem to be good with computers would you like to stay after school and learn java>
[21:46:44] <Sou|cutter> Storkme: take any and every opportunity to learn
[21:47:21] <Honk^away> Sou|cutter: did you ever learn vb? :)
[21:47:40] <Storkme> i refuse to learn vb simply because of the fact that the vb studio thing uses 80% of my ram and frequently crashes my computer
[21:47:45] <Sou|cutter> Honk^away: I learned some VBScript a while back *shrug*
[21:47:55] <Honk^away> ...
[21:48:28] <Honk^away> even if you need it, dont you think learning it yourself would be way faster than learning it at school? ;)
[21:48:31] <Sou|cutter> Honk^away: even if I don't practice what I preach, that doesn't make it bad advice IMO
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[21:48:50] <ksnash> Visual Basic is easy.  Just make stuff up and connect it to something.
[21:49:16] <Storkme> if i learnt it at school i would have to go as slowly as people who've never programmed before
[21:49:26] <Storkme> and it'd probably make me forget java :)
[21:49:28] <cybereal> I'd rather use delphi to work like that.  At least then you get a decent language to work in.  Object Pascal is much better than VB
[21:49:32] <Sou|cutter> Honk^away: Hypothetically self-learning is faster.  But the structure of school learning is helpful to many
[21:50:14] <Honk^away> we're talking about vb here :P
[21:50:28] <Sou|cutter> Honk^away: lots of people make lots of money doing VB
[21:50:30] <cybereal> I self-teach myself everything... maybe I should try to become accredited and give myself a diploma.
[21:50:42] <ksnash> Dim hello as String
[21:50:46] <cybereal> Sou|cutter: probably relative to how many people pay too much money for total crap
[21:50:48] <Sou|cutter> Honk^away: or are you saying there's not much to learn?
[21:51:04] <Honk^away> Sou|cutter: uhh, i would never say that =D
[21:51:12] <Sou|cutter> cybereal: what if you need to port something from VB to java? or to something else?  Might be helpful to know.
[21:51:26] <cybereal> Sou|cutter: I alreay know it well enough to port
[21:51:37] <cybereal> Sou|cutter: it's not hard to read basic :)
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[21:51:44] <Sou|cutter> cybereal: ok.  I'm just making the case that it's not 100% worthless
[21:51:56] <cybereal> Sou|cutter: no, knowing something is never 100% worthless
[21:52:00] <cybereal> Sou|cutter: it's using it that's worthless :)
[21:52:01] <Sou|cutter> right
[21:52:04] <Sou|cutter> hehe
[21:52:20] * davidw gone again
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[21:52:25] <cybereal> I don't think I'll ever feel like any bit of knowledge is not worth having... but knowing is not doing.
[21:53:09] <ksnash> In the real world what can be seen is more important than what's behind it.  You can make some really nice looking interfaces really fast.
[21:53:39] <mohadib> THE NEW PHONE BOOKS ARE HERE!!
[21:53:42] <ksnash> If you know what you are doing you might make what's behind it work just as well.
[21:53:54] <jwormy> hmm
[21:53:58] <cybereal> ksnash: facades eventually crumble
[21:54:06] <amphiboid> ksnash: especially from the security point of view I guess...
[21:54:09] <Sou|cutter> mohadib: cell phones have made phone books pretty worthless for non-business use
[21:54:21] <mohadib> Sou|cutter: dont steal my thunder
[21:54:24] <jwormy> the internet has made phone books useless
[21:54:36] * Sou|cutter thwoks mohadib with an old phone book
[21:54:40] <cybereal> yeah, stupid phone company dropped a phone book off on my porch and I just left it there... I don't even have service with them.  I never use the phonebook.
[21:54:40] <Sou|cutter> hehe
[21:54:48] * mohadib hugs the new phone book
[21:54:52] <amphiboid> no no no... you need phone books to know who to call when the Internet connection has a problem  :)
[21:54:54] <ksnash> ASk for the dvd
[21:55:05] <snow_ru> hm
[21:55:16] <snow_ru> java said : Add method not implemented ( run time error )
[21:55:19] <snow_ru> what is it ?
[21:55:24] <cHaoTiCa> only reason i need a phone book anymore is to look up the local number for domino's :)
[21:55:28] <Sou|cutter> phonebooks are great for when you need something just a tad bit higher than a surface.  Like a monitor *looking at the one under his monitor*
[21:55:40] <cHaoTiCa> course, then i put it in my phone :)
[21:55:49] <Storkme> hooray for phones
[21:55:50] <ksnash> Add not supported maybe add is.
[21:55:54] <cybereal> amphiboid: I have a backup connection via my cell phone.  Not gonna be a problem.
[21:55:55] <mohadib> yes , but you guys dont understand
[21:56:01] <mohadib> im *in* rhis phone book
[21:56:05] <cHaoTiCa> heh
[21:56:10] <mohadib> none of you guys must have seen The Jerk
[21:56:12] <mohadib> lamers
[21:56:13] <mohadib> :p
[21:56:14] <cHaoTiCa> you're in a phone book?
[21:56:27] <Sou|cutter> mohadib: ah, I've seen it.  Didn't make the connection
[21:56:27] <cHaoTiCa> i have.  i just didn't care about it :)
[21:56:28] <mohadib> cHaoTiCa: yes :)
[21:56:29] <Sou|cutter> hehe
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[21:56:47] <Sou|cutter> cHaoTiCa: mohadib is under "escorts"
[21:56:50] <cored> back
[21:56:54] <mohadib> Sou|cutter: lol
[21:57:00] <mohadib> javabot: Sou|cutter++
[21:57:00] <snow_ru> java said : Add method not implemented ( run time error )
[21:57:01] <javabot> sou|cutter has a karma level of 59, mohadib
[21:57:01] <snow_ru> what is it ?
[21:57:04] <snow_ru> cheeser, ?
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[21:57:15] <cHaoTiCa> and here i am trying to stay *out* of the phone book :)
[21:57:26] <cheeser> javabot: magic8 does snow_ru's problem have an answer?
[21:57:26] <javabot> I guess that would be good
[21:57:28] <ksnash> I thought he was in bathroom stall.
[21:57:54] <Sou|cutter> ~tell snow_ru about smart questions
[21:57:54] <javabot> snow_ru, smart questions is what you need to ask to understand a smart answer. See http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
[21:57:55] <ksnash> Add not supported maybe add is.
[21:58:02] <cybereal> snow_ru: looks like an interface is defining an Add method, and the class implementing the interface doesn't have it defined, so maybe the class file is compiled from an older version of the interface.
[21:58:19] <mohadib> ~should I fuck off all day?
[21:58:20] <javabot> I guess that would be good
[21:58:23] <mohadib> wordd
[21:58:34] <ksnash> snow_ru: Add not supported maybe add is.
[21:58:52] <cheeser> javabot: tell ksnash about english
[21:58:53] <javabot> ksnash, english is http://www.bentsynapse.net/insults/images/englishpulpfiction.jpg
[21:58:54] <snow_ru> it's not that cybereal
[21:58:55] <Sou|cutter> ~cybereal++
[21:58:55] <ksnash> ~thank you
[21:58:56] <javabot> cybereal has a karma level of 5, Sou|cutter
[21:58:58] <javabot> You're welcome.
[21:59:00] <snow_ru> it's really strange error
[21:59:26] <Sou|cutter> what makes an error strange?
[21:59:28] <cybereal> snow_ru: it's not that strange
[21:59:39] <ksnash> YOu have capitol A in you question.  most adds are lower case.
[21:59:43] <Sou|cutter> cheeser: I understood knash
[21:59:49] <snow_ru> the first time it gave error, the second time not
[21:59:57] * Sou|cutter speaks ksnash
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[22:00:03] <ksnash> ~fix typing
[22:00:04] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'bug fixed' might be appropriate:
[22:00:06] <javabot> Yeah, and you probably introduced 5 new ones in the process.
[22:00:09] <cybereal> ksnash: Probably would've made it easier to read your "answer" if you quoted the identifiers :)
[22:00:12] * Sou|cutter strikes ACDCJunior with thunder
[22:00:31] <ACDCJunior> Sou|cutter, thanks
[22:01:15] <cybereal> snow_ru: the first time what? the first time you executed the java code?
[22:01:56] <snow_ru> cybereal, the first time I press run in eclipse
[22:02:13] <cybereal> snow_ru: refresh your project and force clean it
[22:02:27] <ksnash> snow_ru:  Do you have .Add or .add?
[22:02:40] <snow_ru> then, I tried to change some thing,,, and then... error occur
[22:02:46] <snow_ru> no
[22:02:49] <cybereal> snow_ru: did eclipse throw the error, or did your program?
[22:03:15] <snow_ru> HOt code replace failed
[22:03:23] * ksnash would like an error to show up on his program right now.
[22:03:39] <cybereal> snow_ru: you have to stop your code and start it again
[22:03:44] <snow_ru> myXML at localhost:port... (out of synch) was unable to replace the running code with the code in workspace
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[22:04:03] <ksnash> click on red box then grey x's
[22:05:25] <snow_ru> when I quit eclipse and run the code again.. no problem
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[22:05:38] <cybereal> snow_ru: Hot code replace failed.  That's it.
[22:05:41] <cybereal> snow_ru: it's not that wierd
[22:05:48] <cybereal> weird
[22:06:16] <ksnash> It's a fact that IRG causes bad typing.
[22:06:22] <ksnash> IRC :(
[22:06:33] <snow_ru> cybereal, can you explain me ?
[22:06:33] <cybereal> ~ridicule ksnash
[22:06:34] * javabot points at ksnash and laughs.
[22:06:44] <ksnash> I know I pressed the C key first.
[22:06:58] <cybereal> snow_ru: Eclipse tries to modify the currently running application with code updated to be what you changed the last time you saved in an editor.  It's failing for you, for some reason.
[22:07:09] <cybereal> snow_ru: All you have to do is stop all debugging processes and start them again.
[22:07:19] <cybereal> ksnash: obviously not
[22:07:44] <ksnash> See the window with console on bottom of eclipse.  press the red square then the grey x's
[22:07:45] <cybereal> ksnash: unless of course you are referring to the 'c' in 'fact'
[22:07:55] <snow_ru> thanks
[22:08:41] <ksnash> Keyboard made by gremlins.
[22:09:40] <ksnash> ~help polymorphic
[22:09:40] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'help factoid retrieve' might be appropriate:
[22:09:42] <javabot> To see (retrieve) a factoid, type ~key, e.g., ~cygwin.
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[22:10:00] <cybereal> javabot: just do ~polymorphic
[22:10:01] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'just a bot' might be appropriate:
[22:10:02] * javabot is just a bot, so you'd better not try conversing with me.
[22:10:05] <cybereal> err
[22:10:10] <cybereal> ksnash: just do ~polymorphic
[22:10:37] <ksnash> ~polymorhism
[22:10:38] <javabot> ksnash, I have no idea what polymorhism is.
[22:10:46] <cybereal> heh
[22:10:47] <ksnash> ~polymorphism
[22:10:48] <javabot> ksnash, polymorphism is http://java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Programming/BasicJava2/oo.html#poly
[22:13:42] <jwormy> argh redbull is more expensive then vodka
[22:13:54] <jwormy> i'm so cheap i drink 2 shots per sip of redbull...
[22:13:55] <ricflazz> polymorphism is when you have multiple girlfriends and you can treat them all the same
[22:14:17] <jwormy> no polymorphism is when you are a power ranger and you can change from one color to another
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[22:14:27] <ricflazz> jwormy: i was just thinking about that, because i was at a bar and got a rb & vodka and he was cheap on the rb and heavy on the vodka
[22:14:43] <jwormy> ricflazz, thats the way i am
[22:14:45] <ksnash> I had a pop telephone interview and they wanted to know how I recently used polymorphism in code, and my mind went blank.
[22:15:05] <jwormy> ksnash, what a beginner question to ask
[22:15:29] * ksnash didn't really think he had any polymorphism needed recently.
[22:15:30] <jwormy> ricflazz, what are you spost to mix it? 50/50?
[22:15:44] <Sou|cutter> ksnash: java doesn't support polymorphism
[22:15:47] <jwormy> ksnash, you use polymorphism all the time
[22:15:47] <ricflazz> i dunno
[22:16:10] <ricflazz> when i worked at a bar we did 3 seconds of booze and the rest filler
[22:16:19] <shingoki> I hate the word polymorphism
[22:16:23] <ricflazz> but with RB being so expensive who knows
[22:16:25] <shingoki> it just slides out of my head
[22:16:28] <ksnash> It was for a C++ position doing com and I had told them I had mostly done java recently.
[22:16:29] <Sou|cutter> "Just the other day I was polymorphizing some <buzzword> code!" is the correct answer
[22:16:40] <Sou|cutter> hehe
[22:17:06] <shingoki> I can't even find a consistent definition of polymorphism, does anyone have a good one?
[22:17:12] <ksnash> i did remember the difference between a class and a struct.
[22:17:14] <jwormy> no the correct answer was 'i use polymorphism in all my code to keep objects as abstract as possible'
[22:17:40] <jwormy> and then he goes 'uhhmmmmm,  yes'
[22:18:13] <jwormy> i had a phone interview once and the guy was like 'so what do you know about hibernate... so what do you know about ____'
[22:18:25] <jwormy> i was like 'well your questions are so amazing you get an A+ on interviewing you jackass'
[22:18:41] <shingoki> jwormy, you got the job? ;)
[22:18:57] <jwormy> shingoki, no.. he was the 'non-technical' guy.. the 'technical guy' liked me... he didn't.. go figure..
[22:18:58] <cybereal> shingoki: Polymorphism is where you define a parameter as a type and then pass it a different type that inherited the type that was required, and quite possible another different type inheriting that same parent type.
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[22:19:13] <Sou|cutter> jwormy: recruiters seem to ask that type of questions a lot.  It's like "what kind of answer are you looking for?"
[22:19:15] <jwormy> shingoki, maybe its because he asked GAY questions
[22:19:21] <jwormy> Sou|cutter, yea..
[22:19:27] <shingoki> cybereal, ah ok, that's pretty much one definition I saw, but there were subtly different other ones as well
[22:19:30] <cybereal> shingoki: other scenarios apply with the same concept
[22:19:38] <cybereal> shingoki: well the word itself is pretty vague
[22:19:41] <ricflazz> shingoki: when you can treat two things in a simmilar way and not know what they are
[22:19:49] <shingoki> cybereal, yup I just don't like the word, I'm pretty happy with the concept :)
[22:19:50] <jwormy> like women!
[22:20:03] <cybereal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymorphism_(computer_science)
[22:20:45] <cybereal> shingoki: that first sentence/paragraph is a good summation
[22:21:56] <shingoki> yeah, but if you read the whole article it gets confusing as hell :)
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[22:22:03] <cybereal> shingoki: yeah it's poorly written
[22:22:07] <cybereal> shingoki: like most things on wikipeida
[22:22:09] <cybereal> er pedia
[22:22:37] <Sou|cutter> cybereal: why does everybody always rag on wikipedia?  So long as you realize what it is, I think it's damn good
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[22:23:01] <cybereal> Sou|cutter: sure it's a nice resource
[22:23:08] <cybereal> Sou|cutter: it just wreaks of amateur writing is all
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[22:23:12] <shingoki> I think the real answer to that question then, is "I don't know when I last used polymorphism, because I don't know exactly what you mean by it, I suspect you don't either, and frankly I'm too busy writing good code to care about any of the above" :)
[22:23:16] <Sou|cutter> cybereal: that's what it IS
[22:23:29] <cybereal> Sou|cutter: I'm glad we see eye to eye then
[22:23:30] <shingoki> :)
[22:23:33] <ksnash> The reson I have to look at the jpeg stream as char is that the markers are in text and that's the only way to read them.
[22:23:49] <shingoki> amateur is too often used in the sense of "amateurish" as a slur
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[22:23:59] <cybereal> shingoki: I use polymorphism in the form of overloaded functions all the time :)
[22:24:03] <shingoki> Some of the best things in the world have been essentially amateur
[22:24:12] <Sou|cutter> shingoki: I am underwhelmed by professional writing anyway
[22:24:17] <shingoki> Sou|cutter, yup
[22:24:35] <shingoki> A lot of encyclopedias are well written and completely apocryphal
[22:24:50] <Sou|cutter> ~dict apocyphal
[22:24:50] <javabot> Sou|cutter, dict apocyphal is http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=apocyphal
[22:24:59] <shingoki> you only really notice when you know something about the subject, they are quite often looking at things from a weird angle
[22:25:02] <Sou|cutter> ~dict apocryphal
[22:25:02] <javabot> Sou|cutter, dict apocryphal is http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=apocryphal
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[22:25:23] <Sou|cutter> ~shingoki++
[22:25:24] <javabot> shingoki has a karma level of 15, Sou|cutter
[22:25:37] <ksnash> ~ksnash--
[22:25:37] <javabot> Changing one's own karma is not permitted.
[22:25:39] <javabot> ksnash, you have a karma level of -1.
[22:25:59] <cybereal> ~karma
[22:26:00] <javabot> I guess the factoid 'help karma' might be appropriate:
[22:26:02] <javabot> To increment someone's karma, use ~nickname++, e.g., ~cybereal++.  To decrement, use -- instead of ++.  To view someone's karma level, use ~karma nickname, e.g., ~karma cybereal
[22:26:09] <cybereal> ~karma cybereal
[22:26:09] <javabot> cybereal, you have a karma level of 5.
[22:26:11] <cybereal> stupid bot
[22:26:11] * ksnash is a murderer
[22:26:16] <pchapman> Wow.  It says you can't do it; then does it.
[22:26:20] <cybereal> yeah amusing
[22:26:22] <cheeser> javabot: tell cybereal about stupid bot
[22:26:22] <javabot> cybereal, you're the one talking to a robot.  Duh.
[22:26:24] * ksnash plays ultima online
[22:26:37] <Sou|cutter> pchapman: I think it decrements anybody messing with their own karma
[22:26:46] <cybereal> cheeser: where do I file a bug that ~karma without parameters should return the karma of the caller?
[22:26:46] <pchapman> LOL.
[22:26:51] <pchapman> That makes sense.
[22:27:01] <cheeser> ~karma cheeser
[22:27:01] <javabot> cheeser, you have a karma level of 140.
[22:27:02] <ksnash> ~What is the answer to the most important question?
[22:27:03] <javabot> Okay, ksnash.
[22:27:08] <cheeser> javabot: forget what
[22:27:09] <javabot> I forgot about what, cheeser.
[22:27:12] <cybereal> hahah
[22:27:29] <cybereal> that could've been an amusing factoid
[22:27:38] <Sou|cutter> ~what? is the question
[22:27:39] <javabot> Okay, Sou|cutter.
[22:27:39] <ksnash> ~say 42
[22:27:41] <javabot> 42
[22:27:47] <Sou|cutter> ~forget what?
[22:27:48] <javabot> I never knew about what? anyway, Sou|cutter.
[22:27:55] <cybereal> ksnash: you're going to get pelted for playing with the bot in channel
[22:27:58] <cybereal> ksnash: you can /msg it
[22:28:00] * cheeser nods sagely.
[22:28:10] <Storkme> ~say hello
[22:28:10] <javabot> hello
[22:28:13] <Storkme> woot
[22:28:13] * Sou|cutter must be on "the list"
[22:28:17] <jwormy> ~leave
[22:28:17] * ksnash didn't start it.
[22:28:17] <javabot> I'll be back in one hour
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[22:28:23] <jwormy> leave him alone
[22:28:26] <ksnash> :9
[22:28:28] <ksnash> :(
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[22:30:40] <jwormy> or, she..'
[22:30:47] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o cheeser
[22:30:48] *** cheeser sets mode: -b *!*i=k@*.rh.uwec.edu
[22:31:40] *** ChanServ sets mode: -o cheeser
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[22:34:14] <cybereal> Wow so many things in o'caml are different from other similar ideas in languages I already know.  This is going to take forever to get used to.
[22:34:31] <jwormy> o'caml?  link
[22:34:44] <cheeser> www.google.com
[22:34:57] <cheeser> javabot: stats
[22:34:57] <javabot> I have been up for 35 days, have served 2922 messages, and have 2311 factoids.
[22:35:03] <cheeser> wow.  35 already?
[22:35:10] <cheeser> time to reboot that box, then!
[22:35:14] <cybereal> heh
[22:35:25] <shingoki> cybereal, I was looking at ocaml too, it looks nice. I've just been looking at nemerle as well, that seems nice
[22:35:32] <shingoki> too much niceness :)
[22:36:01] <cybereal> ew .NET
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[22:40:39] <ricflazz> howcome the .netters get all these cool languages, and all we get is jython
[22:40:51] <cybereal> ricflazz: beanshell!
[22:40:57] <mohadib> jythos is tech suk
[22:41:01] <cybereal> jython is ages outdated
[22:41:09] <ricflazz> and its lame too
[22:41:20] <ricflazz> there is groovy, i forgot groovy
[22:41:29] <Chaka> was just gonna mention groovy
[22:41:45] <ricflazz> we need something that is more than just java with cool syntax
[22:41:47] <cheeser> and jruby
[22:41:55] <ricflazz> how is jruby?
[22:42:01] <cheeser> have no idea
[22:42:03] <cybereal> ricflazz: what do we need that?
[22:42:03] <pchapman> jruby?
[22:42:17] <cybereal> is there a java lua interpreter?
[22:42:17] <Chaka> er.. most .net langs are just changes in syntax :p
[22:42:31] <ricflazz> isnt ocaml a pure functional lang?
[22:42:35] <cybereal> some of the .NET languages are a whole layer of emulation
[22:42:38] <cybereal> ricflazz: no
[22:42:41] <Sou|cutter> I think other language support is on Sun's radar lately... can't recall where I read something about that, though
[22:42:47] <cybereal> ricflazz: hybrid functional & imperative
[22:42:54] <ricflazz> so its not like sml?
[22:43:04] <cybereal> I don't know what sml is
[22:43:19] <cybereal> All I know is that o'caml has imperative features
[22:43:22] <ricflazz> smlnj? standard ml of new jersey?
[22:43:28] <ksnash> that's a multimedia definition xml variety
[22:43:37] <cybereal> to complement its generally functional disposition
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[22:43:56] <cybereal> oh man I have killer heartburn :(
[22:44:08] <ksnash> drink some apple cider vinegar
[22:44:12] * cybereal runs off to find some tums
[22:44:24] <ricflazz> ksnash: how does that work, i know it does, but how
[22:44:25] <ricflazz> ?
[22:44:31] <Chaka> cybereal, http://luaforge.net/projects/luajava/
[22:44:38] <ksnash> applecider vinegar>
[22:44:39] * ricflazz is on the apple cider bandwagon
[22:44:57] <ksnash> heartburn is supposed to be a signal of lack of acid.
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[22:45:19] <mohadib> wow , i thought it was too much acid
[22:45:26] <ricflazz> that is what i thought too
[22:45:32] <ksnash> You don't stay up that late.
[22:45:33] <cheeser> it *is* too much.  too much in your esophagus.
[22:45:35] <jwormy> odd, when i had 'heartburn' i was throwing up 'acid' regularly
[22:45:44] <jwormy> which is an indication of to much
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[22:46:09] <cheeser> heartburn is too much acid.
[22:46:09] <ksnash> No you have too much non acid which floats the acid to top.
[22:46:19] <cheeser> so sayeth my doctor friend.
[22:46:34] <cheeser> ksnash: nope
[22:46:38] <jwormy> heartburn is to much acid...
[22:46:46] <jwormy> for once in my life, i agree with cheeser..
[22:46:47] <ksnash> Well if it actual works the only way to truly know is to try.
[22:46:48] <jwormy> but i still hate him
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[22:47:14] <ricflazz> apple cider vinegar does work
[22:47:15] <mohadib> hehe
[22:47:16] <cheeser> jwormy: i'm acutally pm'ing a friend of mine who's an M.D.
[22:47:18] <vman_____> whats the command line flag to give the app you're running more memory?
[22:47:29] <jwormy> cheeser, yea, i have a lot of experience in the stomach area too..
[22:47:40] <jwormy> cheeser, my stomach got crazy messed up with all the chemo.. :\
[22:47:40] <cheeser> javabot: tell vman_____ about tool docs
[22:47:41] <javabot> vman_____, tool docs is http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/tooldocs
[22:48:14] <ksnash> You need to stay up late and watch"What the doctrs are afraid to tell you.
[22:48:40] <cheeser> jwormy: eek
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[22:48:52] <cheeser> ksnash: too bad they're wrong about the heartburn bit.
[22:49:01] <ricflazz> ksnash: the kevin treudau thing?
[22:49:02] <cheeser> ksnash: is that a show based on that book that just came out?
[22:49:10] <ksnash> yes
[22:49:10] <ricflazz> hes a con artist
[22:49:24] <cheeser> ksnash: he's literally a con.  convicted. jailed.
[22:49:27] <ricflazz> enterprise class con artist
[22:49:31] <cheeser> in other words, he speaks rectally.
[22:49:41] <mohadib> heh
[22:49:41] <Rawplayer> dont highlight me!!
[22:49:44] <ksnash> anymore than "How to make millions while wearing your underwear at kitchen counter"?
[22:49:46] * Rawplayer is a Kevin
[22:50:17] <cheeser> hehe
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[22:51:06] <ksnash> Then why do you get heartburn after you have eaten too much when the extra acid is useful?
[22:51:28] <cybereal> ksnash: because it's easier for all that acide to get in your throat
[22:51:36] <shingoki> ksnash, catching something vital in the blender and sueing?
[22:51:38] <cybereal> esophogus or whatever, can't remember how to spell that stupid word :)
[22:51:41] <Bevin> 'night
[22:51:41] <shingoki> is that how you spell sueing?
[22:51:46] <tmh> Extra acid is not useful, if it was useful, it wouldn't be extra
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[22:51:52] <cybereal> shingoki: don't think "sueing" is a word really
[22:51:56] <Bevin> 'night
[22:52:03] <shingoki> well if you sue someone, what are you doing?
[22:52:03] <cybereal> heh
[22:52:06] <ksnash> ~javabot suing
[22:52:06] <javabot> Just try ~suing, ksnash.
[22:52:14] <ksnash> ~suing
[22:52:14] <javabot> ksnash, I have no idea what suing is.
[22:52:17] <shingoki> stop playing with the bot!
[22:52:26] <ksnash> i can't help it.
[22:52:35] <bnoji> So I keep getting exceptions from centraview.
[22:52:41] <cybereal> shingoki: It's probably one of those words where properly fitting to that context requires support words.
[22:53:04] <bnoji> The load average went to 2.88 with one user logged in
[22:53:06] <jwormy> cybereal, the acid gets in your throat from hiatle (sp?) hernia(sp?)
[22:53:09] <cheeser> ksnash: sometimes what you think is heartburn is reflux
[22:53:20] <arnon> does j2se package have something like org.apache.struts.util.LabelValueBean ?
[22:53:29] <cybereal> My dad has acid reflux disease, probably runs in the family :(
[22:53:37] <mohadib> that sucks
[22:53:42] <mohadib> that stuff is nothing nice
[22:53:43] <jwormy> cybereal, your diphragm(sp?)  doesn't function properly which provides 50% of your esophogus closing functionality
[22:53:44] <lindi-> i'm trying to visualize an object tree using reflection in http://pastebin.com/391613 but i keep getting 'java.lang.IllegalAccessException: Class main.Main can not access a member of class node.Start with modifiers "private"' the url in the topic mentions reflection but i couldn't find anything how to override this exception, what am i doing wrong?
[22:53:52] <mohadib> my last roomate got some operation to make it stop
[22:54:02] <vman_____> is there a free java profiler i can download and use?
[22:54:03] <mohadib> and it worked :) he is very happy
[22:54:09] <cybereal> mohadib: interesting, my dad has prescription medicine for it
[22:54:09] <ernimril> vman_____: yes
[22:54:15] <ernimril> ~tell vman_____ about profiler
[22:54:15] <javabot> vman_____, profiler is a tool to find performance bottlenecks.  jmp and ejp are gratis; optimizeit, jprofiler and jprobe cost money.  Some more are listed here: http://javafaq.mine.nu/lookup?169 .
[22:54:17] <jwormy> cybereal, waht medicine?
[22:54:17] <cybereal> real prilosec, not the OTC stuff
[22:54:30] <ksnash> I supposedly have reflux and the medicines make me sicker than any reflux does.
[22:54:36] <mohadib> cybereal: thats what my old roomate used ... till he got the operation
[22:54:38] <cheeser> arnon: no.  that's struts.
[22:54:48] <cheeser> ok. gents.  enough heartburn.  back to java.  8^)=
[22:54:51] <cybereal> I only have heartburn when I'm dehydrated so I don't think it's reflux, I think it's just a poor diet.
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[22:55:15] <mohadib> cybereal: have a pizza and go driectly to bed
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[22:55:17] <mohadib> ;)
[22:55:20] <jwormy> lol
[22:55:22] <ksnash> Why is it taking so long to go through 65K bytes?
[22:55:38] <cybereal> ksnash: eh?
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[22:55:51] <ksnash> same jpeg parsing
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[22:56:01] <cybereal> how long is it taking?
[22:56:06] <cybereal> and what do you mean by "go through" ?
[22:56:19] <ksnash> about an hour.
[22:56:24] <jwormy> ksnash, are you the guy who was putting a jpeg in a String?
[22:56:49] <cybereal> ksnash: an hour to do something with 65k bytes? wtf are you doing to them?
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[22:57:02] <Ryugi> i have just read through a book on java and done some examples and i understand the language,i would like to know what type of aplications java commonly used to make
[22:57:03] <jwormy> cybereal, rearanging them 10000000 times
[22:57:09] <cybereal> jwormy: hah
[22:57:12] <jwormy> Ryugi, all types
[22:57:13] <ksnash> I made a simple turning machine.
[22:57:20] <cybereal> Ryugi: it's a general purpose language
[22:57:22] <ricflazz> Ryugi: light purple and grey ones for java 1.4
[22:57:29] <bnoji> 16:56:52,209 INFO  [ValidatorPlugIn] Loading validation rules file from '/WEB-INF/validation.xml' <-- It seems to hang here for a long while when starting up
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[22:57:37] <ksnash> looks for marker. else saves byte in array.
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[22:57:43] <PPSD> hi
[22:57:56] <cybereal> ksnash: if you want help, you'll need to utilize the pastebin
[22:58:32] <Ryugi> so it can be used the same way as C++
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[22:58:43] <cybereal> Ryugi: yeah with some differences, some advantages, and some disadvantages
[22:59:00] <Ryugi> what are the advantages
[22:59:08] <cybereal> Ryugi: some major advantages being compile once run anywhere (at least, that's the idea), and a huge library of functionality standard.
[22:59:28] <cybereal> Ryugi: garbage collection, and other fancy things like that to help development go faster
[22:59:39] <bnoji> mhmm. Dell shorted me 256MB of RAM on this server.
[22:59:46] <cybereal> but that of course has the disadvantage of less control over the resulting performance and code
[23:00:05] <cybereal> Ryugi: I think in general the "disadvantages" are not even worth mentioning, especially in "application" development
[23:00:09] <ernimril> cybereal: if you do your java correct it will be fast....
[23:00:19] <cybereal> bnoji: probably stuck up some manager's ass
[23:00:22] <cybereal> ernimril: yes I agree
[23:00:31] <joefso3> I'm trying to create/make up a list for new programmers that are going to have to learn java through projects, actually it's like making up programming contests,(++awards ofcourse, to keep it interesting). Any ideas? :)
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[23:01:08] <Ryugi> ok
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[23:01:19] <cybereal> ernimril: I don't know a good way to phrase it, but, I'm just saying that with C++ you have a little more control over the resulting performance than with java due to being able to modify the results of the native compilation, where in Java you rely on the JIT compilers and such to optimize things.  It's not like people really do much with that ability in C++ anyway.
[23:01:23] <Ryugi> so java is worth learning then
[23:01:29] <cybereal> Ryugi: I would say definitely
[23:01:33] <ksnash>   http://pastebin.com/391631 i just thought of a better way to check for that marker though.
[23:02:00] <cybereal> ksnash: why are you using strings for your states?
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[23:02:19] <cybereal> ksnash: You're asking why your code is so slow and you're practically intentionally making it as inefficient as possible.
[23:02:26] <ksnash> to see if they are going through them.
[23:02:40] <PPSD> is there any way to delete a directory and free its memory?
[23:02:51] <bnoji> "java" is taking 90.9% CPU and 93% RAM, but not doing anything.
[23:03:01] <ksnash> The println 's will go away when I can get omeinclination of working
[23:03:03] <cybereal> bnoji: it's obviously doing something
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[23:03:30] <PPSD> sorry typo: is there any way to delete an ARRAY and free its memory?
[23:03:49] <cybereal> ksnash: it's not your println calls I'm referring it, it's that your little state machine is using strings to store/define state when ordinals would be more efficient
[23:03:56] <cheeser> PPSD: nope
[23:03:56] <shingoki> PPSD, just stop using it
[23:03:59] <cheeser> let the garbe collector deal with it.
[23:04:00] <ernimril> PPSD: just drop the references to it
[23:04:02] <cheeser> garbage
[23:04:15] <pchapman> PPSD, if you set all references to the array to null, it will be garbage collected.
[23:04:22] <PPSD> but when?
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[23:04:32] <ksnash> states are ints.
[23:04:40] <ernimril> pchapman: there is no guarantee that it will ge GC:ed
[23:04:41] <PPSD> my program occupies 200mb of RAM at some time where only about 20mb of arrays are needed
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[23:04:51] <pchapman> ernimril, No.  There isn't.
[23:05:00] <snooplsm> Question: whats the difference between | and || and in similar & and && bitwise operators?
[23:05:08] <ksnash> evidently you have 10 of those arrays.
[23:05:09] <mheath> PPSD: what they're saying is, just do yourArray = null;
[23:05:28] <ernimril> PPSD: get a profiler and see if you keep references...
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[23:05:42] <PPSD> mheath: but the function where those arrays were declared is already finished...
[23:05:46] <cybereal> ksnash: you seem to be mixing strings and bytes as if they are analogous
[23:05:47] <shingoki> Actually you very rarely need to explicitly null a reference, normally unused stiff will just naturally have references go out of scope
[23:05:57] <PPSD> i.e. they ARE out of scope
[23:05:59] <shingoki> stiff, hmm
[23:06:08] <shingoki> PPSD, well in that case they will eventually be GC'ed
[23:06:20] <PPSD> but they aren't
[23:06:25] <ernimril> shingoki: not will, may!
[23:06:26] <cybereal> PPSD: are they being returned or stored elsewhere?
[23:06:31] <PPSD> cyberall: no
[23:06:32] <shingoki> ok may :)
[23:06:32] <cybereal> rather, referred to elsewhere?
[23:06:34] <Honk^away> PPSD: javawm decides on when to actually gc stuff :)
[23:06:37] <PPSD> no
[23:06:57] <ernimril> PPSD: get a profiler and see why you keep so much memory!
[23:06:58] <Honk^away> if you really have trouble, calling system.gc occasionally might (might!) help :)
[23:07:08] <PPSD> System.gc() doesnt help actually
[23:07:10] <ernimril> Honk^away: that is a dumb advice
[23:07:20] <Honk^away> PPSD: good :P
[23:07:22] <mohadib> ~hug ernimril
[23:07:22] * javabot snuggles up to ernimril and strokes ernimril's hair affectionately.
[23:07:25] <Honk^away> ernimril: why? :)
[23:07:31] <PPSD> what'S a profiler?
[23:07:34] <ernimril> Honk^away: System.gc is a hint, some of the GC engines will ignore it...
[23:07:38] <cheeser> javabot: profiler
[23:07:38] <javabot> cheeser, profiler is a tool to find performance bottlenecks.  jmp and ejp are gratis; optimizeit, jprofiler and jprobe cost money.  Some more are listed here: http://javafaq.mine.nu/lookup?169 .
[23:07:42] <Honk^away> ernimril: that's why i said it might help
[23:07:43] <shingoki> Doing anything in a voodoo manner in the hope that it will help is not great :)
[23:07:52] <mheath> Hmm...I'm a little confused about RMI. Say I have a continously running RMI-enabled server.......Client1 calls myMethod() on the server, and myMethod sets a paricular non-local variable....Would those variable change still be there when client2 calls myMethod()?
[23:07:53] <ernimril> Honk^away: the one that honour it will probably get bad statistics...
[23:07:54] * cheeser waves his hands
[23:07:54] <Honk^away> if it was only the vm being too lazy to gc his arrays..
[23:08:01] <cybereal> ksnash: are you looking for -WINBONDBOUNDARY in the stream?
[23:08:11] <ksnash> Yes
[23:08:15] <cybereal> ksnash: you missed the N
[23:08:18] <cybereal> in BOUNDARY
[23:08:26] <Honk^away> ernimril: i really dont see a problem :)
[23:08:29] <ksnash> No I didn't miss the 'N' they did
[23:08:35] <cybereal> oh
[23:08:43] <ksnash> Its WINBONDBOUDARY
[23:08:46] <ernimril> Honk^away: guess you do not know much about modern gc then
[23:08:49] <puff> In this code, http://pastebin.com/391641, are the 2nd/3rd/4th methods superfluous?
[23:08:56] <shingoki> ksnash, that is nuts :)
[23:08:59] <cybereal> and that "-WINBONDBOUDARY" is how you can tell when a new image starts or something?
[23:09:01] <Honk^away> ernimril: not too much =)
[23:09:06] <puff> I suspect yes.  Hm.
[23:09:17] <Honk^away> still.. suns vm does gc on system.gc sometimes :P
[23:09:26] <Honk^away> hence it might have helped :)
[23:09:28] <ernimril> Honk^away: then please stop giving bad advice about it
[23:09:32] <mohadib> cybereal: its the bondry of a multi part form post
[23:09:44] <ksnash> Actually Its --WINDBONDBOUDARY <cr><lf> content: image/jpeg<cr><lf>   jpegimage --WINDBONDBOUDARY <cr><lf> content: image/jpeg<cr><lf>
[23:09:51] <Honk^away> ernimril: why?
[23:09:54] <Honk^away> if it actually fixed his problem?
[23:10:21] <cybereal> lovely
[23:10:22] <ernimril> Honk^away: if you give the gc bad statistics it will perform _very_ badly
[23:10:38] <shingoki> ksnash, what format is this, with the boudoirs?
[23:11:08] <cybereal> puff: yeah, superfluous assuming those types are all inheriting Collection
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[23:11:49] <ksnash> It is a continuous feed of jpeg images with the boundary marker between each image and the images round robin beteen the diferent connected sources.
[23:11:59] <Honk^away> ernimril: got any papers on that? :)
[23:12:11] <Honk^away> i never heard system.gc() messing up the performance before
[23:12:12] <shingoki> ksnash, ah ok, but whose format is it, where does it come from?
[23:12:30] <mohadib> its a normal http multi part post ... is it not?
[23:12:35] <cybereal> ksnash: you may be running into problems because you are storing bytes in a string then turning them back into bytes which isn't going to work
[23:12:42] * mohadib nods
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[23:12:45] <ksnash> It is from a linux server in a box about 2inchs by three inchs
[23:13:23] <cybereal> ksnash: is multipart form posting the only way you can get this stream of jpegs?  You can't say... read it from a disk or something?
[23:13:28] <cybereal> seems all overly complicated
[23:13:44] <ksnash> Actually I think everything should be chars because it is an http feed.  but I had no way of making an inputstream to the JPEGDecoder.
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[23:14:20] <puff> cybereal: Thanks... looks like it builds and the tests I just added run.
[23:14:28] <snooplsm> I crashed eclipse, woot
[23:14:29] <mohadib> shingoki: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1867.txt
[23:14:35] <cybereal> ksnash: You are appending bytes to a string then turning that same string into bytes before you pass it to the decoder.  That's going to corrupt your data most likely, and possibly throw errors.
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[23:14:49] <cybereal> snooplsm: you say that as if it's a challenge :)
[23:14:51] <ernimril> Honk^away: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jtp01274.html
[23:14:55] <ksnash> It has two cameras connected to the embedded linux server whaich sends out the images though a cgi call.
[23:15:07] <Honk^away> ernimril: ta
[23:15:40] <ksnash> It has a way to get jpegs individually but that doesn't work because the images flip flop around.
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[23:15:53] <ernimril> "For most applications, explicit nulling, object pooling, and explicit garbage collection will harm the throughput of your application, not improve it..."
[23:16:04] * cheeser nods sagely.
[23:16:13] <serialpinguin> i'm trying to figure out the best way to write j2ee connectors for legacy systems, like jca does for jdbc. any suggestions ??
[23:16:38] <cheeser> Epesh?
[23:16:49] <cybereal> ksnash: flip flop around?
[23:17:00] <pr3d4t0r> cheeser: Epesh is on vacation.
[23:17:03] <ksnash> They need an InputStream that takes Strings.
[23:17:04] <cheeser> lazy git
[23:17:09] <pr3d4t0r> cheeser: He's unlikely to be around for another week and a half.
[23:17:20] <cheeser> fair enough
[23:17:36] <ksnash> two to four cameras connected to linux server.
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[23:17:57] <mohadib> ernimril: so at what point is it good to pool objects instead of creating new ones all the time?
[23:17:58] <ksnash> The images are not coming at a even rate.
[23:18:13] <cybereal> ksnash: and you can't control which camera you're polling for images?
[23:18:25] <ernimril> mohadib: objects that are _really_ heavy to create can be good... Try database connections
[23:18:25] <ksnash> That function isn't working
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[23:18:39] <cybereal> ksnash: then the software serving those images is a piece of crap, should be replaced.
[23:18:49] <ernimril> mohadib: try url connections (that is use persistent connections)
[23:18:55] <mohadib> ernimril: i cache oobjects on the client side so i dont havt to make a http request ... that is an okay time?
[23:19:00] <ksnash> The linux server that does the streaming is in a box about 2 x 3 inches.
[23:19:09] <ernimril> mohadib: can be...
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[23:19:12] <cybereal> ksnash: that couldn't be more irrelevant
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[23:19:17] <ernimril> mohadib: memory vs time...
[23:19:29] * mohadib nods ty
[23:19:31] <ksnash> It is pretty much all hardcoded in.
[23:19:35] <shingoki> I cache stuff I would create at a rate of thousands per second otherwise
[23:19:51] <shingoki> not sure if that is a sign of a hideous architecture, but I can't think of a way round it :)
[23:19:56] <cybereal> ksnash: every embedded linux solution I've encountered could be reflashed with different, updated software
[23:20:04] <cybereal> ksnash: I kinda doubt this is any different
[23:20:13] <cybereal> ksnash: anyway, what does it normally interface with?
[23:20:23] <snooplsm> is there a difference between &  and &&
[23:20:33] <cybereal> ksnash: arbitrary web servers that allow posting multiple images via post to some included cgi program?
[23:20:33] <ksnash> The people who made the IP video system didn't put much out in the way of help.
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[23:20:59] <ksnash> The one the works only with IE is an ActiveX control.
[23:21:22] <cybereal> ksnash: so that activex control connects to the IP video server or does the IP Video server connect to the activex control?
[23:22:01] <ksnash> activeX control contacts server and decodes the stream.
[23:22:10] <ksnash> or seperates.
[23:22:19] <cybereal> ksnash: your application is connecting to the server then, not the other way around?
[23:22:50] <ksnash> the call is to http://10.2.67.200/GetData.cgi.
[23:23:01] <Drone> That URL gave the following error: java.net.NoRouteToHostException, No route to host
[23:23:06] <cybereal> and it just starts pumping back images indefinitely?
[23:23:15] <ksnash> That is a local address
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[23:23:37] <ksnash> one long stream of jpeg images with markers inbetween.
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[23:25:32] <ksnash> IE and firefox can read the sream though.
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[23:25:46] <ksnash> "/s/sream/stream
[23:26:17] <ricflazz> ksnash: you dont need the leading / and you do need a trailing /
[23:26:23] <cybereal> ksnash: what does firefox do, jusst show a bunch of jpegs one after another?
[23:26:38] <snooplsm> ahh fucknut
[23:26:44] <ksnash> but they can't keep timing correct images jump from one to other position.
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[23:27:39] <cybereal> ksnash: I assume your code still isn't working... are you still concatening strings and chars?
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[23:27:55] <cybereal> ksnash: Your data from the bufferedinputstream should *never* be in a String
[23:28:00] <ksnash> That's only when looking at the marker
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[23:28:31] <ksnash> Writing out the jpeg only works as char data.
[23:29:03] <Honk^away> ernimril: doesnt sound all that bad tbh ;)
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[23:29:42] <ksnash> It 'll take to long to write out the file and read it back in to display it.
[23:29:47] <cybereal> ksnash: but you are deifning the individual bytes of jpg_image out of saved_string
[23:29:56] <cybereal> er defining
[23:29:58] <ernimril> Honk^away: ok, so try it, insert System.gc() on every other line and see how your program works..
[23:30:13] <ksnash> only when marker check fails.
[23:30:23] <cybereal> ksnash: which is the majority of the time
[23:30:30] <ernimril> ksnash: ok, did you think about paying someone competent to do this for you?
[23:30:30] <Honk^away> ernimril: i didnt suggest that, did i? :P
[23:30:38] <Honk^away> (i hope i didnt)
[23:30:42] <ksnash> else i can just copy over the char.
[23:30:51] <ernimril> Honk^away: no, but try it and see what happens
[23:31:10] <ksnash> no the marker only comes around when it finds a '-'
[23:31:29] <Honk^away> ernimril: why would i do that? =)
[23:31:36] <cybereal> ksnash: I see, have you been able to parse through any images?  or did you just wait almost an hour before stopping your code?
[23:31:41] <ernimril> Honk^away: to see what happens
[23:31:42] <ksnash> Mostly it just finds "-0"
[23:31:49] <ernimril> Honk^away: so that you will know what it does
[23:32:01] <cybereal> ksnash: you should store that temporary data in a byte array not in a string
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[23:32:09] <ernimril> Honk^away: instead of just holding on to your believes
[23:32:14] <Honk^away> ernimril: i really dont get your point
[23:32:21] <Honk^away> what do you think will happen?
[23:32:31] <Honk^away> and more importantly.. what do you think are my believes?
[23:32:32] <cybereal> ksnash: String objects translate data in arbitrary ways depending on encoding
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[23:32:51] <Honk^away> i think you missunderstood me somehow :P
[23:32:58] <ksnash> I did a straight copy of everything and saved to file.  I then removed the first marker and everything after end of first image and then changed the 0x20 to 0x00 and the image was viewable.
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[23:34:26] <ksnash> some of those 0x20 were needed though so the image had some problem areas.
[23:34:56] <cybereal> ksnash: why are you converting the jpg data?
[23:35:39] <ksnash> I actually started everything as char but the JPEGDecoder needs an input steam.
[23:35:51] <ksnash> stream
[23:36:16] <cybereal> ksnash: so what's the problem? give it an input stream
[23:36:52] <ksnash> You can't just instantiate an Input stream from char data.
[23:36:56] <cybereal> ~ByteArrayInputStream
[23:36:57] <javabot> cybereal, I have no idea what ByteArrayInputStream is.
[23:37:04] <pchapman> cybereal, Why not?
[23:37:12] <ksnash> Those bytes come out as numbers
[23:37:18] <cybereal> ksnash: bytes are numbers
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[23:37:38] <ksnash> chars come out as not numbers.
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[23:38:02] <cybereal> holy crap
[23:38:08] <cybereal> ksnash: you don't even know what bytes and chars are
[23:38:52] <cybereal> ksnash: char and byte are both 8 bit data structures, they hold the exact same value, but char is a character interpretation while byte is an ordinal interpretation
[23:38:56] <cybereal> ksnash: the data is the same regardless
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[23:39:05] <cybereal> ksnash: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/io/ByteArrayInputStream.html
[23:39:06] <kaylee> hi
[23:39:12] <ksnash> not to JPEGDecoder
[23:39:15] <ernimril> hello kaylee
[23:39:18] <cybereal> ksnash: yes to JPEGDecoder
[23:39:30] <cybereal> ksnash: you can convert between char and byte
[23:39:33] <kaylee> hi ernimril
[23:39:47] <mohadib> \0/ .o0 (is it 5 yet?)
[23:40:03] <kaylee> mohadib: I'm sure it is somewhere in the world
[23:40:10] <ksnash> 					BufferedImage tmp_image=com.sun.image.codec.jpeg.JPEGCodec.createJPEGDecoder(new ByteArrayInputStream(jpg_image)).decodeAsBufferedImage();
[23:40:18] <cybereal> east cost in the US is 5:40pm
[23:40:24] <ksnash> that was one line
[23:40:34] <cheeser> booo on ksnash for using com.sun classes.
[23:40:38] <mohadib> kaylee: damn ... someday that joke will make me laugh , i guess the first time i hear it and it is 5 in new mexico :p
[23:41:01] <kaylee> :)
[23:41:41] <ksnash> does the java.awt.JPEGDecoder work any better?
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[23:41:55] <cheeser> ksnash: you're not supposed to use any com.sun classes.
[23:42:06] <cheeser> they're not portable and not guaranteed to be there from release to release
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[23:43:07] <tmh> There is a factoid for com.sun
[23:43:20] <tmh> javabot, tell ksnash about sun
[23:43:21] <javabot> ksnash, sun is the company behind Java
[23:43:27] <tmh> javabot, sun.com
[23:43:28] <javabot> tmh, I have no idea what sun.com is.
[23:43:38] <cybereal> com.sun?
[23:43:41] <cybereal> tmh :)
[23:43:41] <ernimril> tmh: pm the bot if you are unsure
[23:43:56] <tmh> I just did, and I'm the one who entered the factoid. :-)
[23:44:23] <cybereal> ~com.sun
[23:44:24] <javabot> cybereal, I have no idea what com.sun is.
[23:44:32] <cybereal> tmh: what factoid?
[23:44:45] <snow_ru> javabot is not intelligent
[23:44:46] <javabot> Invalid factoid name
[23:45:00] <tmh> javabot, tell ksnash about sun.*
[23:45:00] <javabot> ksnash, sun.* is a package that should not be used, see http://java.sun.com/products/jdk/faq/faq-sun-packages.html
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[23:45:11] <snow_ru> stupid
[23:45:16] <mohadib> Blackwell!
[23:45:18] <snow_ru> sun is a Star
[23:45:24] <mohadib> ...
[23:45:42] * tmh leaves now and to reduce the noise.
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[23:47:33] <meeper> Q: does anybody know if the DriverManager.getConnection method is supposed to be threadsafe?
[23:48:11] <ricflazz> how expensive is array allocation in java?
[23:48:46] <ernimril> ricflazz: allocations in modern jvms is generally very cheap
[23:48:54] <meeper> ricflazz: expensive? it takes a couple of milliseconds?
[23:49:03] <pr3d4t0r> slava: d00d.
[23:49:09] <slava> pr3d4t0r: hey
[23:49:11] <pr3d4t0r> slava: The guys who wrote SYNTH are here.
[23:49:17] <jwormy> woo hooo
[23:49:19] <slava> pr3d4t0r: who?
[23:49:28] <slava> what is SYNTH?
[23:49:29] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Sun guys.
[23:49:44] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Swing PLAF technology.  Easy to create PLAFs with it.
[23:49:45] <ksnash> Is the ImageIO.stream capable of reading continuous image feed?
[23:49:51] <slava> pr3d4t0r: i'm writing some opengl code right now.
[23:50:07] <ernimril> ksnash: yes and no...
[23:50:08] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Sweet.
[23:50:45] <ernimril> ksnash: but since you do not seem to be a good enough programmer to solve your task you should consider hiring someone competent
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[23:51:26] <slava> ernimril: pot.. kettle... black
[23:51:38] <cybereal> hah
[23:51:54] <ernimril> ksnash: creating an input stream that only reads the data for one image (with no extra buffering) is trivial
[23:52:18] <ernimril> ksnash: you can then do a loop that creates such input streams and displays the images
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[23:53:11] <ksnash> The problem is I have to program so mny different types of interfaces I have find out a different way of doing something every day.
[23:53:54] <ksnash> It is one stream with multiple video sources as jpegs.
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[23:54:55] <ksnash> There have been many others who have been trying to use the same device beyond its only given use and had much difficulty.
[23:56:01] <ernimril> ksnash: I understand what data you have. That other people are stupid is not your problem.
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[23:56:48] <ksnash> The conversions you don't like are from the changes I just made cause you didn't like saving a whole bunch of chars as String.
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[23:57:19] <pr3d4t0r> slava: Dude, look at Synth when you get a chance.
[23:57:27] <pr3d4t0r> slava: I'm talking to Romain right now.
[23:57:44] <pr3d4t0r> slava: http://www.jroller.com/page/gfx/?anchor=synth_subtleties
[23:57:59] <slava> i'll look later, sorta busy right now
[23:58:20] <pr3d4t0r> slava: OKi.
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