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   October 25, 2019  
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[00:04:28] <gitomat> [illumos-gate] 11843 update Intel microcode to 20190918 -- John Levon <john.levon at joyent dot com>
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[00:51:42] <JohnKCG> Hello, someone here?
[00:54:09] <JohnKCG> I wanted to know, about recent illumos distributions working on Sparc
[00:56:00] <JohnKCG> Since the ones you list as compatible has abandoned Sparc and killed support
[00:57:40] <jlevon> tribblix is the game in town
[00:59:07] <JohnKCG> Is it supported and receiving updates?
[00:59:39] <Reinhilde> i don't know about supported, but receiving updates is an "if I'm not mistaken, they are"
[00:59:58] <JohnKCG> Does it have a working IDE and browser?
[01:00:40] <Reinhilde> if you can compile it, and get an X server running, anything does
[01:00:47] <Reinhilde> but that's sorta pointless
[01:00:57] <JohnKCG> I ask because thankfully I obtained a Sun Ultra 45 because I like Unix more than Linux Distros and Sparc over Intel because I don't like X86
[01:00:57] <JohnKCG> And I don't know where to start... Sorry if little off topic...
[01:02:59] <Reinhilde> I know illumos is compatible with some Sun boxes. I don't know which.
[01:03:03] <JohnKCG> So, from a normal regular user (without CLI superpowers) who expects to learn Unix, could Tribilx fit me?
[01:06:04] <dsockwell> there's a balance to be struck between having your first unix system be hardcore and having it be something you'll actually want to use
[01:06:53] <dsockwell> have you used linux a lot beforehand? i'm not sure what to make about your statement re: not having CLI superpowers
[01:08:40] <dsockwell> have you got CLI regular powers?
[01:10:02] <JohnKCG> Well, to start, I think I have to tell you that in my country (Venezuela, you may have seen from my Ip but whatever) people only use windows, wherever they see someone using something different or "hardcore" as Linux (not even talking about Unix) they tell you you are a super developer or the like
[01:10:03] <JohnKCG> I have used Linux as my main system in past
[01:11:36] <dsockwell> but less CLI than you think you'd need on UNIX?
[01:11:55] <JohnKCG> As I am the only one person who knows (don't know how much of an expert I am since I said earlier no one else knows) about Linux Unix systems
[01:11:56] <JohnKCG> In my locality I don't know if I have the "CLI superpowers "
[01:12:08] <JohnKCG> I know how to install a tar, basic C and Java language, ++
[01:12:11] <JohnKCG> Knowledge*
[01:12:26] <dsockwell> that's honestly probably an advantage
[01:12:49] <dsockwell> if you knew the Linux way to do a lot of stuff you might have more trouble learning other systems
[01:13:04] <dsockwell> you probably have fewer bad habits
[01:13:07] <JohnKCG> That's the thing, I don't know how much there is to be known
[01:13:10] <Reinhilde> i will say that if you have ever used 'killall' to kill one process, you're in trouble ;-)
[01:13:52] <JohnKCG> To be a bssic user or to use one of these Unix-Illumos Distros
[01:14:42] <JohnKCG> Anyway, downloading tribblix and check out, I installed Solaris 10 but I don't want nothing with Oracle
[01:14:43] <dsockwell> i remember when I installed OpenIndiana it offered to set up X for me
[01:15:11] <dsockwell> that was the last time I thought of using a Solaris derivative as a desktop
[01:15:39] <JohnKCG> Never used killall
[01:16:16] <JohnKCG> Tried to be as precise and concrete as possible
[01:17:04] <JohnKCG> But now that I am talking to human beings instead of just reading tutorials
[01:17:30] <Reinhilde> My progression in learning Unix-like operating environments was from GNU+Linux (where I got my initial CLI knowledge) to FreeBSD, and from FreeBSD (and other BSDs) to illumos (in the form of OmniOS, who have their own channel - #omnios . I believe they're amd64 only). I still also use the systems I progressed from. I will say that illumos is not difficult coming from a BSD, but it's not easy either - BSDs
[01:17:32] <Reinhilde> and to a lesser (much lesser) extent GNU+Linux distros have a very "original" way of managing things like networking and init (many GNU+Linux distros have switched to a poor man's clone of SMF called systemd - no, the administrative experience is not similar), which will, in part, fall on its face when you go either to illumos or Oracle Solaris. Also, if I am not mistaken, BSDs (as well as many GNU+Linux
[01:17:34] <Reinhilde> distributions) have a killall which kills processes by an exact image name - this has caused me issues on illumos, where killall is the UNIX System 5, Release 4 killall, which kills every process.
[01:17:36] <JohnKCG> What advise can you give me to learn about this world?
[01:17:43] <JohnKCG> Don't want to be the average guy reading tutorials
[01:18:56] <dsockwell> read a book, read a book, read a @!#$@!##@$!@# book
[01:19:42] <dsockwell> i wish i knew a good Solaris book
[01:19:51] <dsockwell> slash illumos whatever
[01:19:59] <Reinhilde> man, apropos and whatis may become your friends very quickly, if you do not read a book :-)
[01:20:13] <JohnKCG> I tried to install bsd on the ultra 45 but couldn't boot because there isn't drivers for the Xvr 2500
[01:20:13] <JohnKCG> I am dsockwell,
[01:20:21] <dsockwell> which one?
[01:21:13] <JohnKCG> I am currently splitting my day in three parts, math for my career (telecommunications engineering), CCNA networking theory and practice and lastly C programing and Unix administration
[01:21:33] <Reinhilde> while incomplete, the pages in /usr/man are fabulously helpful, if you are able to understand technical English.
[01:21:34] <dsockwell> tribblix recommends xfce so it will have your basic GUI things
[01:22:02] <dsockwell> oh JohnKCG i meant read a book about UNIX in particular, not just any book
[01:22:02] <JohnKCG> For some reason in my university they don't care about Linux and instead tell us to use windows, as I hate Ms
[01:22:02] <JohnKCG> That's not a option...
[01:22:16] <dsockwell> er
[01:22:28] <dsockwell> even I might learn to read some day
[01:22:41] <JohnKCG> I am reading Unix system administration
[01:22:53] <dsockwell> you said so before and I didn't read
[01:23:01] <dsockwell> you see what happens?
[01:23:27] <JohnKCG> But in the beginning they tell you you need some knowledge
[01:23:54] <Reinhilde> learning from zero on any Unix-like system is difficult.
[01:24:53] <JohnKCG> Thats part of the reason I am also here...., since you have experience and knowledge on this subject, what should I know before heading into Sparc and Unix?
[01:25:18] <dsockwell> especially on SPARC you have to understand you have a retro computer
[01:25:28] <JohnKCG> I am beginning to understand that things like an graphical IDE like NetBeans is out of the question in such systems like these
[01:25:29] <dsockwell> it's an antique, a fossil
[01:25:43] <dsockwell> a relic of a bygone age
[01:25:59] <Reinhilde> dsockwell: I believe oracle still sells sparc machines
[01:26:04] <dsockwell> they do?
[01:26:09] <Reinhilde> not certain
[01:26:14] <JohnKCG> Also understanding that.....
[01:26:41] <dsockwell> they do.
[01:26:47] <dsockwell> your SPARC is still retro
[01:26:56] <Reinhilde> JohnKCG: it's not necessarily out of the question, just gonna be slower than your economy there in vuvuzela
[01:27:05] <JohnKCG> They do
[01:27:05] <JohnKCG> The Sparc M8 is still available
[01:27:05] <JohnKCG> And Fujitsu is talking about a M8+
[01:27:40] <JohnKCG> But the only OS for these machines seems to be Oracle Solaris, and I also hate Oracle
[01:27:52] <dsockwell> yeah, any new SPARC is going to be like that
[01:27:54] <Reinhilde> (yes that's a deliberate misspelling of Venezuela, it's also a borderline musical instrument)
[01:28:36] <dsockwell> JohnKCG: my personal recommendation is to find a way to spend time on that system without having painfully hard problems
[01:28:44] <Reinhilde> dsockwell: maybe in ten years JohnKCG will be helping y'all port illumos to Sparc M8+
[01:29:06] <dsockwell> try to install a game, I like OpenTTD lately.
[01:29:27] <JohnKCG> But excluding Tribblix I don't have many other options right?
[01:29:47] <dsockwell> if your SPARC box is just the bastard machine that hurts you, you'll get tired of it
[01:30:10] <Reinhilde> give tribblix a shot, and get as much up and running as you feel comfortable doing. it can't hurt
[01:30:36] <JohnKCG> Well, Venezuela believe it or not is segmented in two societies
[01:30:37] <JohnKCG> One with cash and the other poor, have to work to have something, crypto mining is bigger here than in USA, anyway
[01:30:38] <JohnKCG> Killing off topic, have anyone here used Tribblix?
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[01:30:54] <dsockwell> oh man they got him
[01:31:00] <Reinhilde> I know this is completely unsupported but I ended up installing xinetd on my illumos machine because the smf inetd is sick in the noggin.
[01:32:49] <Reinhilde> so now i have to write something to start that on boot.
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[02:38:39] <tomww> if you don't mind the starting order, then place the script in /etc/rc3.d/S<nn>xinetd
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[02:56:49] <Reinhilde> despair86: i assume i need to install pip
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[04:09:19] <jbk> if there's a n issue w/ inetd, please file a bug
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[04:36:12] <Reinhilde> jbk: it just doesn't fit my workflow
[04:36:29] <Reinhilde> (which is more "berkeloid" if you will)
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[05:36:46] <Reinhilde> mgerdts: hi
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[05:55:03] <gitomat> [illumos-gate] 11816 iscsi initiator gets confused if attached before root file system mount -- Joshua M. Clulow <josh at sysmgr dot org>
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[08:35:03] <rmustacc> Would anyone mind playing around with a ksh93-less wc + sleep commands? I have some stuff I could use some more testing on.
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[09:27:22] <yuripv> rmustacc: is there a review yet?
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[09:29:19] <rmustacc> yuripv: Just wrapping up some last bits for a test suite, so don't have it quite yet.
[09:30:06] <rmustacc> Updating things to use C.UTF-8 there now instead of other locales I had.
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[15:50:08] <KungFuJesus> is there any way smatch could have possibly found this? https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/commit/8cb34421e0bf1fea316d16014483d61381a41f57
[15:50:15] <KungFuJesus> it seems like clang's static analysis could have
[15:50:53] <KungFuJesus> I mean the static analyzer can't possibly know the loop bounds of a while loop, but it's at least suspect that a static analyzer could complain
[15:53:53] <KungFuJesus> jlevon: Also, in regards to limiting scope of the variable - that very fix I pasted above could have been avoided by doing that
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[16:37:40] <gitomat> [illumos-gate] 11037 SMB File access audit logging (reserve IDs) -- Matt Barden <matt.barden at nexenta dot com>
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[17:19:20] <rmustacc> KungFuJesus: We generally suggest folks limit the scope of variables. However static locals have other challenges.
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[17:39:01] <gitomat> [illumos-gate] 11669 terminfo could know about rxvt-unicode -- Robert Mustacchi <rm at fingolfin dot org>
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[22:29:24] <copec> There needs to be the illumos in https://ipxe.org/
[22:30:40] <copec> Someone gave me an old Dell 700m and I booted up 32bit debian, even in gnome3 it is only using 60M of RAM... I forgot how much 64 bit multiplied memory usage
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[23:01:21] <Reinhilde> copec: surely 64 bit should only +10% ram usage
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[23:05:01] <copec> In my experience that hasn't been the case for active memory usage. Many times it is several multiples of what 32bit used.
[23:05:12] <dsockwell> how would illumos be inside ipxe.org?
[23:07:03] <copec> sorry dsockwell, I actually meant https://netboot.xyz/
[23:07:39] <dsockwell> this is amazing thank you
[23:09:14] <dsockwell> wait it's just a website?
[23:10:27] <copec> Yeah, but they distribute a pre-built ipxe you can use on your local lan (with internet access) that has all those boot options
[23:11:01] <copec> It fetches the media from authoritative respective source
[23:18:33] <dsockwell> im less excited about that
[23:18:43] <Reinhilde> copec: what has it usually been for you
[23:18:54] <dsockwell> most of the times i want to use ipxe it's in places where i'm not supposed to
[23:20:58] <dsockwell> but its an interesting idea
[23:21:18] <dsockwell> better than chainloading nyanmbr
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[23:39:53] <copec> Reinhilde, I would say somewhere around 2.5x
[23:42:23] <Reinhilde> copec: what do you think causes it?
[23:44:00] <gitomat> [illumos-gate] 11856 chown can trigger vmdump when running recentish zfs -- Tim Chase <tim at chase2k dot com>
[23:47:06] <copec> variables stored/allocated in 64 bit base chunks, twice as many registers that are twice as wide to push onto the stack, multiplication of allocations in interpreted languages
[23:51:14] <copec> I am sort of mixing personal heuristic observations into it. When we converted all the 32 bit virtuozzo containers to 64 bit for websites at work, we had to grow 128M RAM containers to 1G RAM to serve the same thing
[23:51:34] <copec> mostly because of PHP in that instance
[23:52:05] <copec> 64 bit compiled PHP uses ~8x the memory of 32 bit compiled PHP for the same wordpress install
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   October 25, 2019  
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