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   April 16, 2019
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[00:02:00] <lewellyn> oh i hadn't seen that yet. that's a lot better than the things i've been familiar with. like the one that ate all my zones so i had to figure out how to recreate them from their filesystems and xml >.>
[00:02:42] <toasterson> lewellyn which one was that?
[00:03:06] <lewellyn> i'd have to look. moment. i have to grab a box which has a key on the server i haven't removed it from
[00:03:44] <lewellyn> lxadm
[00:03:54] <lewellyn> it ate all my native and lx zones :/
[00:04:05] <toasterson> never heard of that one. Sounds hungry
[00:04:26] <lewellyn> it's not maintained. so i wasn't really interested in figuring out what went wrong and trying to get it patched
[00:04:33] <lewellyn> certainly wasn't interested in forking it
[00:04:42] <lewellyn> it was also a pain to get working from git
[00:05:07] <toasterson> also zcage has some interesting supported stuff. I'll have to check some of the code out how he worked with docker images from javascript
[00:05:46] <lewellyn> i'll try zcage on tribblix later. i need to spin up a new zone for something.
[00:06:43] <toasterson> it looks like it uses imageadm
[00:07:52] <toasterson> lol docker pull is a shell script in zcage
[00:07:56] <toasterson> with curl
[00:10:33] <lewellyn> i note the project page misses the kubernetes buzzword :D
[00:12:43] <LeftWing> Docker images are just tar files
[00:12:46] <LeftWing> So
[00:12:57] <toasterson> nope
[00:13:02] <toasterson> well sort of
[00:13:13] <LeftWing> They definitely are, I've written code to emit them
[00:13:24] <toasterson> think incremental backup tar's
[00:13:33] <toasterson> +gzip and whatnot encoding
[00:13:40] <toasterson> and many json manifests
[00:13:55] <LeftWing> Sure, there are the manifests as well
[00:14:10] <lewellyn> that's like saying slackware packages aren't just tarballs :P
[00:14:23] <LeftWing> https://github.com/joyent/zfs_snapshot_tar/blob/7603eca7c3475598d4f543ac61cd0e9d7dfa7d9b/cmd.c#L1456-L1462
[00:14:42] <LeftWing> That's about the most complicated part -- the "whiteout" entries you need to be able to represent the negative space of a deleted file
[00:15:47] <LeftWing> I'm pretty sure you can't actually represent a file that starts with ".wh." in a docker image, actually
[00:15:53] <LeftWing> The perils of inband signalling
[00:16:11] <toasterson> does that command make docker conatiners from zfs snapshots?
[00:16:28] <LeftWing> It makes a tar file that you can use in the construction of a docker layer, yes
[00:16:45] <LeftWing> We use it in the implementation of "docker commit" and "docker build" in the Triton Docker as I recall
[00:17:05] <lewellyn> LeftWing: now i must create a series of tools named after colors of houses. guess how the config files under $HOME should be named? ;)
[00:17:53] <LeftWing> toasterson: https://github.com/joyent/sdc-cn-agent/blob/f3798e88d93004ed89e6fd6a8572d733b75096c2/lib/backends/smartos/bin/docker-build.js#L1434-L1486
[00:17:58] <lewellyn> i never realized that limitation could be so fun-ly abused!
[00:18:44] <LeftWing> The other thing that's not great is that, as I recall, the tar format cannot represent a UNIX socket
[00:19:09] <toasterson> gnu-tar can afaik
[00:19:10] <LeftWing> So a docker image of a file system with a UNIX socket in it will (again, only as I recall, haven't confirmed in years) create an empty _regular file_ often with 777 permissions
[00:19:54] <LeftWing> There isn't, as far as I know, a _reason_ to try and include a socket because I don't think you can actually reuse it without removing it and recreating it
[00:20:07] <LeftWing> But there also isn't a reason to create a world writeable regular file in its place either
[00:20:15] <LeftWing> Perhaps they've fixed that in recent years
[00:20:47] <lewellyn> i thought their solution was to remove them. i remember discussing it with someone who is now ex-docker, a while back
[00:20:53] <LeftWing> https://github.com/joyent/zfs_snapshot_tar/blob/7603eca7c3475598d4f543ac61cd0e9d7dfa7d9b/cmd.c#L1522-L1529
[00:21:04] <LeftWing> As at time of writing, we did this to be compatible with the real thing
[00:21:10] <LeftWing> But time of writing was a long time ago now
[00:21:59] <toasterson> Well that is their problem. I am not constrained to use any docker code for tar unpack. worst case I just shell out to gtar again :)
[00:22:36] <LeftWing> Heh, there it was -- https://smartos.org/bugview/DOCKER-808
[00:22:57] <toasterson> I also don't like what their zfs driver does. so many clones of filesystems...
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[00:25:47] <toasterson> anyway time for bed here. Good night folks see you tomorrow.
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[00:37:50] <alanc> toasterson: pleasant dreams - meanwhile, I've sent that conversation on to our remaining folks involved with Go for Solaris
[00:39:27] <LeftWing> Thanks alanc
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[06:53:33] <gitomat> [illumos-gate] 10759 cardbus: NULL pointer errors -- Toomas Soome <tsoome at me dot com>
[06:55:50] <gitomat> [illumos-gate] 10795 cpr: NULL pointer errors -- Toomas Soome <tsoome at me dot com>
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[12:16:11] <jubalh> hello
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[12:19:12] <jubalh> I'm interested in OS development and wanted to know whether the illumos project has tasks that are suitable for newcomers (C background is there)
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[12:22:30] <jlevon> jubalh: well there's endless amounts, what are you interested in?
[12:22:32] <igork> jubalh: https://www.illumos.org/projects/illumos-gate/issues
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[12:48:16] <jubalh> jlevon: that actual area is not the most important concern for me. just something easy to get started with processes (getting to know how illumos development works), and then maybe continuing with some not too hard task in any area
[12:48:21] <jubalh> igork: thanks i'll check it out
[12:48:50] <jubalh> Maybe I could debug https://www.illumos.org/issues/10565 and find out when the segfault happens and then attempt to fix it
[12:50:05] <jlevon> sure!
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[12:50:23] <v_a_b> jubalh If I may suggest, try and set up an OmniOS bloody environment to build Illumos and third-party software. Then, you can look at Illumos issues to fix. Or, you could build and package software that does not yet exist in the OmniOS "extra" repository.
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[12:56:59] * jubalh looks at it
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[13:18:19] <andy_js> tsoome: After a certain point I just give up reviewing your changes. You should try and pace yourself.
[13:21:26] <jlevon> heh
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[13:23:04] <tsoome> hrm?:)
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[14:10:29] <tsoome> anyone with knowledge about mac, could you please check https://www.illumos.org/rb/r/1743/
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[14:43:35] <pmooney> ptribble: Thanks for writing up IPD5
[14:44:11] <ptribble> I should probably add a few more
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[15:23:30] <toasterson> huh solaris seems to have new feature in their zonecfg which don't have. anet
[15:25:47] <jlevon> it has a lot
[15:26:16] <ptribble> they've had that for ages
[15:27:23] <toasterson> yep I see... and it's their central network config for OCI. I will need to emulate that.
[15:27:37] <toasterson> at least make my implementation
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[15:41:44] <jlevon> sigh
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[18:19:11] <v_a_b> toasterson IIRC OmniOS got some sort of automatic vnics in zones the other day. So many things on my "must investigate RSN" list.
[18:19:30] <v_a_b> :-(
[18:20:56] <toasterson> v_a_b oh interesting. It's not hard to do. It just sounded like a feature a cloud company might have implemented already. But Joyent probably didn't pack it into zonecfg but rather vmadm
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[18:22:49] <andyf> Joyent have augmented zonecfg for this, just not in the same way as Solaris
[18:25:37] <v_a_b> I must say that I love those VNICs appearing when I start a zone, and then disappearing again when the zone is stopped.
[18:26:15] <v_a_b> The GZ will tell you the zone owning the VNIC and the name it has inside the zone:
[18:26:27] <v_a_b> $ dladm show-vnic
[18:26:28] <v_a_b> LINK OVER SPEED MACADDRESS MACADDRTYPE IDS
[18:26:28] <v_a_b> inst/net0 zone0 1000 2:8:20:a5:20:53 random VID:0
[18:26:28] <v_a_b> ldap/net0 zone0 1000 2:8:20:39:7f:a6 random VID:0
[18:26:28] <v_a_b> sol10test/bge0 zone0 1000 2:8:20:80:2c:95 random VID:0
[18:27:07] <tsoome> thats neat. it is about the time we get it:D
[18:27:39] <andyf> OmniOS has it in r30
[18:27:39] <andyf> https://paste.ec/paste/tRLyrrOw#XJEJOS7zb8KtNJ3k0sgVmskmM9xqs-NNHjbnBE6Ei6U
[18:28:22] <andyf> it's one of the things that's in https://github.com/illumos/ipd/blob/master/ipd/0003/README.md
[18:28:38] <v_a_b> I wants it.... gollum gollum
[18:31:47] <ptribble> andyf: Tribblix doesn't *quite* do it like that - my vnics are persistent, but everything is done automatically by my management tools rather than manually by the administrator
[18:32:11] <andyf> yeah, every system is different :p
[18:32:16] <toasterson> ou ptribble the management tools being zap?
[18:32:31] <ptribble> yup
[18:32:39] <andyf> OmniOS and Joyent have extra zoncfg properties for the net resource, global-nic, mac-addr and vlan IIRC
[18:32:57] <andyf> but Joyent can use the same VNIC name in different zones
[18:33:21] <toasterson> will have to have a look at zap again. THanks for the info
[18:33:31] <andyf> hopefully we can get it all upstreamed and find some consensus when time allows
[18:33:44] <toasterson> andyf +1
[18:34:42] <ptribble> But zap also manages etherstubs and NAT for you if necessary
[18:36:07] <ptribble> Oh dagnabbit
[18:36:32] <ptribble> I was just writing an IPD to remove all the ucb compat stuff
[18:37:21] * toasterson reads zap code
[18:37:22] <ptribble> And now it appears that Oracle have gone and put it back into Solaris - well some of it at least
[18:37:34] <andyf> IPS needs some of it IIRC
[18:39:00] <ptribble> Huh? I mean, I could understand why Tribblix, being retro and all that, might want ucb, but less so the other distros
[18:39:47] * ptribble thinks zap is more a hacky shell script than real code
[18:40:26] <v_a_b> SAP and Oracle still need the ucb compat pkg in Solaris.
[18:40:44] <v_a_b> Oracle == Oracle DB
[18:41:47] <v_a_b> They are doing smart things like hardwiring "/usr/ucb/whoami" in their install scripts.
[18:43:01] <toasterson> I am happy about any command invocations and order of such. Less work to engineer stuff.
[18:43:02] <alanc> Solaris 11.4.0 has a legacy/compatibility/ucb package that is just a bunch of symlinks of commands from /usr/ucb paths to /usr/bin paths for scripts that use the old paths like that
[18:44:06] <alanc> 11.4.8 restores libucb & friends to that library because it was still needed by things like SAM-QFS, IBM Tivoli, and other apps
[18:44:33] <alanc> http://pkg.oracle.com/solaris/release/manifest/0/legacy%2Fcompatibility%2Fucb at 11 dot 4%2C5.11-11.4.0.0.1.15.0%3A20180817T002559Z is the set of symlinks
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[18:53:33] <alanc> so yeah, which distros want it depend on which want to offer backwards compatibility with existing Solaris software
[18:54:05] <v_a_b> And 11.4.8 has been out for 41 minutes now :-)
[18:56:40] <ptribble> Thanks alanc. I'll probably have to limit myself to ripping out libbc and aoutexec...
[18:56:49] <rmustacc> And maybe fixing dtest?
[18:57:14] <rmustacc> If our test suites rely on parts of /usr/ucb, probably should clean that up first?
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[19:31:42] <tsoome> we just did update one client systems - and new tivoly is not linked against ucblib any more..
[19:32:24] <tsoome> tivoli*
[19:59:17] <jbk> don't you need to be more specific? ISTR IBM shoved a bunch of unrelated stuff into a box and calls it tivoli
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[20:10:02] <alanc> I think we were pushing on IBM to fix Tivoli in parallel to restoring it for customers who were still on the older version
[20:10:39] <alanc> but I was only involved in the restoration side, not the pushing ISV's to stop using it side, so I don't know the full details
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[20:27:21] <LeftWing> I suspect it's unlikely that people are running software from giant object-only ISVs on illumos
[20:27:58] <LeftWing> It's not like you'd be able to get support from the ISV
[20:28:08] <LeftWing> (if it even works)
[20:29:04] <alanc> I'd agree it's a bad idea, but the IT world is filled with people doing unwise things
[20:29:32] <alanc> (like relying on a temporary transition aid for SunOS 4 interfaces in 2019)
[20:32:51] <v_a_b> Or using .Xdefaults :-)
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[20:39:15] <alanc> that too 8-)
[20:42:43] <tsoome> am, yes, I was referring to tivoli backup, and yes, I just did check with co-worker, it is definitely updated to work without ucblib.
[21:05:01] <richlowe> I've had my ~/.Xdefaults longer than some of you folks have been alive, dammit!
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[21:06:45] <LeftWing> lol
[21:07:07] <LeftWing> Also, hey now, I use .Xdefaults :P
[21:07:33] <richlowe> tbf, it's more surprising that you use X
[21:07:41] <LeftWing> Other things are dumb, as it turns out
[21:07:50] <LeftWing> I spent five years giving OS X a go
[21:07:53] <LeftWing> And... nah.
[21:08:35] <richlowe> and not on, like, an NCD
[21:08:51] <richlowe> oh, I didn't mean you'd go _Forward_ in time
[21:08:54] <LeftWing> I used to use Sun Rays before ... well, before the dark time. Before the Empire.
[21:09:08] <richlowe> never used a real x terminal!?
[21:09:16] <richlowe> (you'd be surprised how hard googling x terminals is these days.)
[21:09:20] <LeftWing> ha
[21:09:23] <LeftWing> I've not actually, no
[21:09:41] <LeftWing> There's a soft middle between now, and where my nostalgia interests lie
[21:09:56] <LeftWing> A DEC VT220 is fascinating and enjoyable, but, say, a Macintosh LC II is just not.
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[21:10:17] <LeftWing> I think shitty X Terminals would probably fall in that middle region.
[21:10:27] <andyf> I remember my first exposure to X was via Exceed... it was not a great experience
[21:10:38] <LeftWing> Is that the Windows X server?
[21:10:48] <andyf> yeah, on a novell network it was
[21:10:50] <LeftWing> Oof
[21:10:52] <LeftWing> That sounds all bad
[21:10:58] <andyf> then I moved to 4DWM on an SGI Indigo and never looked back
[21:11:12] <andyf> but I still had a .Xdefaults :p
[21:11:14] <LeftWing> SGI did make some fancy pants cases.
[21:11:16] <LeftWing> ha
[21:11:21] <richlowe> primo boot sounds, too
[21:11:33] <richlowe> terrible promo songs, though
[21:12:05] <LeftWing> I do miss the Sun Rays -- https://sysmgr.org/~leftwing/files/work_desk.jpg
[21:12:10] <jbk> i used exceed over dialup before :)
[21:12:17] <andyf> anyway, olvwm via Exceed... let's not go back to it
[21:12:21] <jbk> it actually wasn't bad once all the bitmaps were transferred
[21:12:30] <richlowe> http://www.digibarn.com/collections/songs/sgi/index.html
[21:12:30] <LeftWing> andyf: Yeah, quite a lot of the past was not actually very good.
[21:12:54] <LeftWing> Which is why all the "Seventh Edition was the last time UNIX was good" talk is just hot fucking nonsense.
[21:14:02] <richlowe> alanc: don't suppose you guys have embarrassing promo songs that need archiving? :)
[21:14:15] <richlowe> none of your machines had the ... benefit? of rhyming with 'rocktane'
[21:14:20] <LeftWing> ha
[21:16:02] <andyf> oh dear... "I have a dream and it's called a crossbar switch"
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[21:24:39] <lewellyn^> richlowe: re googling x terminals, you're lucky to even get a link to xterm(1) anymore. and i had reason the other day to discover that there are apparently only 3 maintained display managers which implement xdmcp. one being xdm (thanks alanc for not killing that yet)
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[21:25:32] * toasterson wants a modern xdmcp
[21:25:57] <lewellyn^> gdm, lightdm, xdm. those are your choices until wayland figures out how to approach the problem, apparently.
[21:26:22] <lewellyn^> lemme find how i phrased the choices...
[21:26:57] <toasterson> you mean until wayland seriously wants to replace X and not claim they do?
[21:27:18] <lewellyn^> > that leaves no real choice but to pick your poison between "it supports almost anything you can think of, at the expense of pulling in a lot of GNOME", "I hope Canonical doesn't change this thing's configuration format again", and "this looked state of the art in X11R3!" :(
[21:27:32] <lewellyn^> that's the state of xdmcp in 2019 :P
[21:28:30] <lewellyn^> the response was "Thank you for your wise words" which made me chuckle when i saw that in my inbox
[21:28:42] <lewellyn^> mostly because i think the writer was sincere
[21:29:51] <lewellyn^> as for wayland, i have no idea wtf is going on with that. it's mostly irrelevant to me aside from things which it'd be saner to ask cthulhu about
[21:30:23] <lewellyn^> my todo list is getting scary while i try to remain occupied :D
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[21:41:37] <rsmarples> Does anyone know if it's possible to get the UUID of the zone you're currently in?
[21:41:53] <rsmarples> if so, how? :)
[21:44:10] <LeftWing> rsmarples: On what distribution?
[21:44:22] <rsmarples> smartos
[21:44:31] <LeftWing> mdata-get sdc:uuid I think
[21:44:51] <LeftWing> Though in general "zonename" will also tell you the UUID because we name the zones for their UUID
[21:45:46] <rsmarples> LeftWing: ok, that looks smartos specific? I was hoping for something more generic to illumos
[21:46:00] <rmustacc> rsmarples: In general, there is no uuid. Just a name for a zone.
[21:46:10] <rmustacc> Which is what the zonename(1) command returns.
[21:46:24] <rmustacc> That name has to be unique on the system.
[21:46:40] <rmustacc> SmartOS forces a UUID as the zone's name.
[21:46:45] <andyf> on generic illumos, often you can see /etc/zones/index
[21:46:45] <rmustacc> But the illumos primitive is just a name.
[21:46:55] <rmustacc> Don't rely on /etc/zones/index, please.
[21:46:59] <rmustacc> It's not a stable interface.
[21:47:04] <rsmarples> i want to see it from inside the zone
[21:47:12] <rmustacc> Yes, zonename(1) command will do that.
[21:47:16] <rsmarples> ok, that wont work, needs to be a uuid
[21:47:21] <rmustacc> There is none?
[21:47:22] <andyf> rmustacc - but neither is libzonecfg...
[21:47:34] <rmustacc> andyf: Yes, and I would tell folks not to use that to get a zone's name.
[21:47:39] <rmustacc> andyf: Because there are stable ways to get it.
[21:47:53] <andyf> rmustacc - he's asking for a way to get a zone's UUID on a generic illumos system (not smartos)
[21:48:02] <rmustacc> My point is there is no such thing?
[21:48:22] <rmustacc> Like, there's no UUID in the zone_t. The name is the equivalent.
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[21:48:39] <rmustacc> There is a hostid emulated, but there is no per-zone system guaranteed uuid for it.
[21:48:51] <rsmarples> that's a pity
[21:49:00] <andyf> stable or not, what's the uuid in index then?
[21:49:05] <rsmarples> i was hoping for a nice uuid to seed dhcpv6 clients with
[21:49:10] <jlevon> it's a different thing with weird semantics
[21:49:23] <jlevon> I'd recommend avoiding that uuid anyway.
[21:49:37] <rmustacc> Well, there are a couple of other options.
[21:49:41] <jlevon> not sure of exact illumos state, but it used to, for example, change on re-attach
[21:50:01] <rsmarples> is there an equivalent of a system uuid other OS provide? such as /sys/class/dmi/id/product_uuid on linux?
[21:50:11] <rmustacc> There is, but it's not a per-zone thing.
[21:50:26] <rmustacc> And generally not available in a zone.
[21:50:28] <rmustacc> Unfortunately.
[21:50:47] <rmustacc> I would probably generate a uuid when the thing starts up and save it. I think there is some other dhcp client ID stuff there already, IIRC.
[21:50:48] <rsmarples> ah well, consider this a feature request then :)
[21:50:58] <LeftWing> Where does "/usr/bin/hostid" get its ID from inside a zone
[21:51:00] <rsmarples> yeah, that's what I do when the OS doesn't support it
[21:51:21] <rmustacc> LeftWing: Well, it's up to the zone configuration to override it.
[21:51:26] <rmustacc> Unfortunately, it's not guaranteed to be per-zone.
[21:51:44] <toasterson> actually /etc/zones/index is copied into the zone on OI.
[21:51:50] <rmustacc> rsmarples: Yeah, that's a reasonable request. I can file an RFE on it.
[21:52:03] <LeftWing> toasterson: The whole thing?! Or just the relevant line
[21:52:13] <toasterson> just relevant line ofc :)
[21:52:19] <LeftWing> phew
[21:52:29] <rsmarples> rmustacc: great! if you can point me to it I an add myself to any CC so I can action it if/when it becomes available
[21:52:38] <rmustacc> And again, as jlevon points out, that thing will change and isn't consitent for what it sounds like rsmarples wants.
[21:52:41] <rmustacc> Will do.
[21:54:05] <rsmarples> rmustacc: even better if it's a lib call rather than scraping output
[21:55:11] <rmustacc> rsmarples: Yup, of course.
[21:55:23] <rsmarples> :)
[21:56:22] <rmustacc> It'd probably look something like getzonenamebyid() does in https://illumos.org/man/3c/getzoneid more or less.
[21:58:18] <andyf> jlevon - any time the zone state moves to < ZONE_STATE_INSTALLED, the uuid is wiped... learnt something (although it makes sense I was surprised about detach/attach - shouldn't have been though)
[21:59:03] <jlevon> andyf: FWIW back in ClosedSolaris we concluded that none of the available options were sufficient for persistently identifying a system and started introducing yet another UUID with a suitable lifecycle.
[21:59:40] <rmustacc> Sounds just like what i'm writing up.
[21:59:46] <richlowe> you had the uuid in that shitty support thing that arrived with SXDE
[22:00:04] <andyf> If it's an IPS system, the system image has a UUID too
[22:00:29] <rmustacc> andyf: Yes, but that has the wrong lifetime for something like a DHCP client identifier.
[22:00:39] <rmustacc> Because presumably, if you update things, that changes?
[22:00:44] <richlowe> I'd hope not?
[22:01:11] <LeftWing> In IPS parlance, the "image" is ... the system
[22:01:13] <LeftWing> I believe
[22:01:24] <andyf> well, there's actually one per configured publisher to limit information leakage
[22:01:37] <andyf> so it's no good for this either (and there's a command to regenerate the uuids)
[22:01:41] <LeftWing> ha
[22:02:00] <richlowe> I think that was a way to tell system uniqueness for metrics, too
[22:02:13] <richlowe> that's the reason Sun IPS mirrors weren't actually useful, too
[22:02:20] <toasterson> yep. thats the intended purpose of that uuid
[22:02:21] <richlowe> because if it's a _mirror_ you can't scrape the logs as good
[22:02:30] <andyf> and it used to be that a cloned zone got the same uuid, or something like that, I remember fixing it anyway
[22:02:57] <jbk> maybe that's why i could never get a local mirror working (for S11.x)
[22:02:57] <andyf> if it's a mirror (as in pkg set-publisher -m) then catalogue requests still go to the primary repo
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[22:03:08] <andyf> so it's fine for stats in that case
[22:03:10] <jbk> and instead would have to constantly roll the dice and hope the pkg servers weren't misbehaving
[22:03:16] <jbk> (like they often seemed to)
[22:03:24] <jbk> anytime i needed to update
[22:03:34] <andyf> that's why the OmniOS US mirror is an IPS mirror and not just a... er... mirror
[22:04:41] <alanc> richlowe: I do have a VHS tape of Sun music videos I should get to the archivists someday
[22:05:07] <alanc> lewellyn^: I tried letting xdm die of neglect, with years between releases, but people just would not give up on it
[22:05:36] <lewellyn^> it, sadly, is still the only reasonable choice for some situations
[22:05:49] <alanc> and xdm does look a little nicer now than in X11R3 - it even has a color logo on the login screen!
[22:06:03] <lewellyn^> hahaha it looks dated regardless
[22:06:12] <alanc> oh, no question
[22:06:41] <lewellyn^> but for things like xdmcp, there are times when it's the only reasonable choice. e.g. pulling in even GLib isn't acceptable.
[22:06:42] <rsmarples> rmustacc: right, if there is a system UUID that is used rather than assuming local storage is writeable
[22:06:53] <rsmarples> to generate one from some other source
[22:07:49] <alanc> I'm just saying https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Xdm_Screenshot.png is a slight improvement over http://www.yagoto-urayama.jp/~oshimaya/netbsd/Xdreamcast/xdreamcast-2.png
[22:07:49] <rmustacc> rsmarples: I wrote up https://www.illumos.org/issues/10810.
[22:07:54] <lewellyn^> and i'm not one to talk about dated since i just built XawPlus a couple weekends ago.
[22:07:55] <rmustacc> Do you feel like that covers everything you were asking for?
[22:08:58] <rsmarples> rmustacc: that sounds perfect!
[22:09:06] <lewellyn^> alanc: also eye of the beholder. aside from the console, i prefer the dreamcast image
[22:09:12] <rmustacc> If anyone's interested in working on such a feature, I'm happy to help out with that.
[22:09:14] <rsmarples> rmustacc: thanks :)
[22:10:09] <rmustacc> No problem. Apologies we don't quite have what you're looking for.
[22:10:15] <rsmarples> heh, I have a long todo list already
[22:10:24] <rsmarples> well, there is something else i can't find
[22:10:38] <rsmarples> is there any mechanism to notify userland of new datalinks?
[22:10:59] <rmustacc> There are some hacky options like concatenating the hostid and zonename and then hashing it to get something uniqueish.
[22:11:13] <rmustacc> Though the hostid is entirely synthesized on x86 so that's not really useful either.
[22:11:14] <LeftWing> I think you can ... listen on a routing socket?
[22:11:21] <LeftWing> For link status updates?
[22:12:04] <rsmarples> LeftWing: no, for new datalinks. dlpi can return link status updates i think, although it's a socket per datalink from what I've red
[22:12:19] <LeftWing> The thing I'm thinking of is more of an old BSD thing rather than a DLPI thing
[22:12:22] <rmustacc> That's correct.
[22:12:25] <rsmarples> rotuing socket relies on it being plumbed already
[22:12:30] <LeftWing> Ah OK
[22:12:53] <rmustacc> I'm not sure of a good way to do it off hand, but you probably have a good list of things we should be adding and making more first class.
[22:12:53] <rsmarples> I'm very much BSD based so this whole plumming thing is new to me
[22:13:00] <LeftWing> The magic of STREAMS!
[22:13:20] <rsmarples> well, magic is certainly one word :)
[22:13:31] <rmustacc> I'm not sure that's quite the word I'd use either.
[22:13:41] <LeftWing> There are a lot of problems with it, but the more I look into it, I dunno. It's not all bad.
[22:13:54] <LeftWing> It's obviously not a good way to make a high performance networking infrastructure, though.
[22:14:17] <rsmarples> high performance isn't really my concern. writing an easy to use networking tool is
[22:14:23] <rsmarples> or rather networking setup
[22:14:52] <rsmarples> and the zone uuid and data link notifications are the last things missing I think
[22:14:58] <LeftWing> Fair enough
[22:15:25] <rsmarples> the zone uuid isn't that important, and probably data link isn't either. how often do people hotplug physical interfaces with illumos anyway?
[22:15:55] <rmustacc> Like USB NICs, etc.?
[22:16:09] <lewellyn^> probably more on the desktop than anywhere else. and i would argue that the desktop isn't the common use case
[22:16:12] <rmustacc> I use it, at least.
[22:16:28] <rsmarples> rmustacc: yes. maybe even virtual interfaces - i don't know how illumos works for say tap/vpn stuff
[22:16:57] <rmustacc> I can't speak for everyone, I suspect most folks create vnics on an as-needed basis.
[22:17:08] <rsmarples> and plumb it as well
[22:17:10] <rmustacc> Which is probably the primary basis and then configure it when they need it.
[22:17:44] <rmustacc> I would at least guess, most vnics, vpns, etc. are more static than not.
[22:17:45] <toasterson> for zones yes
[22:17:48] <rsmarples> rmustacc: is there a way of following that RFE for updates?
[22:17:52] <rmustacc> Or are wrapped up in a dynamic thing that exists elsewhere.
[22:17:58] <toasterson> shared ip stack does not work with turris omnia
[22:18:06] <LeftWing> If you're using OpenVPN, you need to have loaded the TUN/TAP driver on your system (which isn't in illumos-gate directly). OpenVPN has code in it to use the ioctl() to create a tun0, say, and plumb IP on top.
[22:18:41] <rsmarples> right, so it's really only usb nic's
[22:18:41] <rmustacc> rsmarples: I think right now the only way is to have an account on the bug tracker and click the watch link. Though anyone can create an account.
[22:18:43] <LeftWing> rsmarples: If you create an account in our bug tracker, I believe you can add yourself as a watcher
[22:18:52] <rsmarples> nice, thanks
[22:18:54] <LeftWing> If you have trouble with that, please let me know and I can help.
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[22:20:26] <rsmarples> no trouble, already done
[22:21:15] <rsmarples> thanks everyone for your help :)
[22:21:45] <LeftWing> You are most welcome!
[22:26:32] <rmustacc> rsmarples: If you ever have other things that you're looking for, please let don't hesitate to let us know.
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   April 16, 2019
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