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   November 18, 2018
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[00:41:43] <yuripv> we can't have that in illumos-gate, only in dilos-something;)
[00:43:32] <LeftWing> Can't have what?
[00:44:49] <yuripv> fwiw, when i commit to freebsd tree, i know i do somwthing useful, something that i skipped hours of useful discussions here
[00:45:16] <yuripv> s/useful/useless/ it seems
[00:45:37] <LeftWing> I don't think all discussion is useless
[00:46:04] <LeftWing> Are you referring to something in particular that's happened recently?
[00:46:44] <yuripv> I'm referring to tsoome; let him push his changes here and now
[00:46:51] <LeftWing> The env file change?
[00:47:15] <yuripv> no, that is a change we'll never agree on
[00:47:26] <LeftWing> Respectfully, that's bullshit
[00:47:39] <LeftWing> We're very close. I'm lining up the ducks I know about, like the wiki updates.
[00:48:07] <LeftWing> It represents a policy shift, which I'm absolutely ready for -- I want to see the backside of lint, but I also want us to make an explicit decision about whether we wait for smatch or not
[00:48:20] <LeftWing> Do you mean the sys/queue.h stuff then?
[00:50:36] <LeftWing> If you mean the sys/queue.h stuff, I think that's probably ready too.
[00:51:22] <LeftWing> (And I agree that the sort of discussions that were being had about that were less productive.)
[00:58:11] <yuripv> I'm talking about garrett being mean to toomas on advocates@, not my business, ok, but it's just plain stupid
[00:58:21] <LeftWing> Oh
[00:58:23] <LeftWing> That I agree with
[00:59:16] <yuripv> Toomas is doing something useful, garret is all whine and stuff
[00:59:19] <LeftWing> If you saw my proposal mail to advocates@ recently, one of the things I mentioned was direct push access (with approval) for regular contributors, tsoome included
[00:59:55] <LeftWing> The response has been extremely positive from 99% of people, so I'm working up the energy to follow through on it
[01:00:17] <yuripv> I didn't see any apologies to Toomas
[01:00:21] <yuripv> FWIW
[01:00:33] <LeftWing> I haven't either, which I have directly addressed with Garrett and Gordon
[01:01:19] <yuripv> even if he doesn't it, we can't let someone go like that
[01:01:33] <yuripv> doesn't need it*, sorry
[01:02:18] <LeftWing> Well it's pretty clear they're probably not going to apologise. I can't force them to do that, but I can arrange for us to have more explicit written guidance about appropriate behaviour. Which we would then enforce.
[01:03:20] <LeftWing> For instance, we're not going to have any more non-emergency backouts without trying to contact the author.
[01:04:56] <LeftWing> I wish that I could promise everything will be better by, say, tomorrow
[01:05:18] <LeftWing> But I can't control time and space with my mind, sadly. I can only try to work towards incremental improvements.
[01:05:28] <yuripv> I want Toomas to do what he does
[01:05:33] <LeftWing> Me too!
[01:05:43] <yuripv> he has his area of code to work on, and he does just that
[01:06:29] <yuripv> he does a great work for freebsd as well, so he really knows what he's doing
[01:06:35] <LeftWing> I understand that.
[01:06:49] <yuripv> there's no need to double ask what he does
[01:06:56] <LeftWing> I like to think I know what I'm doing, too -- but I still want to convince at least one reviewer, and one approver, for any change I'm going to make.
[01:07:33] <yuripv> we don't need that, let him push his changes
[01:07:40] <LeftWing> We do need that.
[01:07:51] <LeftWing> What we don't need is for it to be ridiculous
[01:07:58] <yuripv> why? he isn't going to break build
[01:08:12] <yuripv> if he *needs* a review, he'll ask
[01:08:30] <yuripv> otherwise, it's his area to work on
[01:09:01] <LeftWing> All code really needs to be reviewed by at least one other person. It has a huge impact on many aspects of the software -- not least of which is that at least one other person is able to _understand_ each commit.
[01:09:31] <LeftWing> I totally agree we need to improve the process of getting changes in, but ditching review isn't really going to work out.
[01:09:31] <yuripv> and it's going to be you or Robert
[01:09:48] <yuripv> to really _understand_
[01:09:53] <LeftWing> I don't think that's always true. I've seen other people, like andyf, review things
[01:10:57] <LeftWing> Obviously there are some people who seem to stamp things LGTM within about 5 seconds of looking at them
[01:11:02] <yuripv> can we let him go, with post-commit review? that solaris-like scheme doesn't work anymore
[01:11:55] <LeftWing> Again, I know it's fashionable to talk about the Solaris past as something we need to throw away
[01:12:10] <LeftWing> But lots of projects, especially serious infrastructure projects like this one, have pre-commit review. It's a big deal.
[01:12:35] <LeftWing> The bhyve people aren't going to let us push our fixes into CURRENT without somebody looking at them, for instance -- and nor, really, should they.
[01:12:53] <yuripv> heh
[01:13:12] <LeftWing> What I agree is missing from our project is
[01:13:19] <yuripv> because there are people to look at
[01:13:23] <LeftWing> some way to marshall long-term projects that will result in a series of smaller bugs/commits
[01:13:28] <yuripv> who's going to look at loader?
[01:14:06] <LeftWing> I mean, somebody clearly is going to look at it. I know Rob Johnston and John Levon have been working on making sure all that stuff works with SmartOS
[01:14:14] <LeftWing> To the extent that they've been tinkering with the forth, even
[01:14:24] <LeftWing> I'm sure they will make qualified reviewers for things in that area soon if not already
[01:14:38] <yuripv> ooookkkk, let them do just that, probably post-commit
[01:14:54] <LeftWing> It's not going to be post-commit.
[01:15:08] <LeftWing> I'm ready for a lot of change, but I'm definitely not ready for that.
[01:15:43] <yuripv> heh
[01:16:24] <LeftWing> I'd like to get this design-docs (RFD/RFC/etc) repo off the ground
[01:16:38] <LeftWing> And then I have an e-mail from tsoome about the loader patch queue that I can probably turn into the first one
[01:16:44] <LeftWing> And then we can make sure we're moving ahead on that
[01:16:54] <LeftWing> (into the first RFD, that is)
[01:17:36] <LeftWing> I'm also trying to finish the redmine upgrade, and get Jenkins stood up, and help somebody finish the new website
[01:17:44] <LeftWing> And review things when I can
[01:18:12] <LeftWing> So like
[01:18:30] <LeftWing> It'd be nice to have a little less negativity
[01:18:35] <LeftWing> Because it's extremely demoralising
[01:18:49] <yuripv> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/share/ctypedef/, and r340942 where I fixed the tests, nothing did really broke or explode near
[01:19:09] <yuripv> and it's what makes it worth doing
[01:20:06] <LeftWing> That's great!
[01:20:27] <LeftWing> FreeBSD can have one set of rules, and we can have another, and that's fine
[01:20:52] <yuripv> ok.
[01:21:11] <LeftWing> It seems like you got review on that change anyway?
[01:21:21] <LeftWing> Looking at the "differential" link
[01:21:46] <yuripv> not really, i got a "go ahead, don't treat me as blocking review"
[01:22:37] <yuripv> explicit approval for changes wrt the locale
[01:23:27] <yuripv> here, i'd have to be beaten by garrett for no real reason, to wait on review for ages, etc.
[01:25:39] <yuripv> the difference is, something breaks? I'll work on it.
[01:26:04] <yuripv> without it, we won't ever know what is broken.
[01:26:39] <LeftWing> So, again, we've been pretty slow on the loader patch queue
[01:26:44] <LeftWing> This is obviously not good
[01:26:55] <LeftWing> And I am sorry, on behalf of the project leadership, to tsoome, for it taking so long.
[01:27:07] <LeftWing> We're going to work on speeding that up in the near term.
[01:27:22] <LeftWing> I am presently trying to line ducks up for the dropping of lint
[01:27:57] <LeftWing> We're going to have a process for providing an RFD-like document (see https://github.com/joyent/rfd for the kind of thing I mean) for larger-scale work
[01:28:22] <LeftWing> We're probably going to assign one person (e.g., myself, Robert, a handful of others have suggested they would be keen) to help people draft and work through design issues
[01:28:35] <LeftWing> So that it's much clearer how we can get things done and integrated, rather than languishing in branches
[01:30:01] <LeftWing> I think by having an established project representative acting as a kind of "shepherd" for the contributor, we should better be able to avoid descending into the kind of discussion you don't like
[01:30:29] <LeftWing> I can poke richlowe until he reviews something, for instance
[01:30:40] <yuripv> just assign Toomas to do what does
[01:30:44] <LeftWing> I don't know where he lives, but I'm pretty sure it's not close enough that he'll come to my house and kill me
[01:31:08] <yuripv> I don't really care more than that
[01:31:27] <LeftWing> Well, I would definitely seek tsoome's review on loader bits, for instance
[01:31:42] <LeftWing> As he is clearly our foremost expert
[01:32:08] <LeftWing> But it's important for changes to be reviewed before they go in
[01:32:12] <LeftWing> No matter who writes them
[01:32:28] <LeftWing> Robert is making updates to e1000g at the moment, for new I219 client parts -- but he's getting review
[01:32:41] <LeftWing> Even though he's very good at it
[01:33:22] <yuripv> can he just push it? why do we need "review"?
[01:33:50] <yuripv> everyone just should do the work they have to do.
[01:33:52] <LeftWing> Because it catches bugs. Because it catches code that only makes sense to the author -- e.g., where comments would make it maintainable.
[01:33:58] <yuripv> it doesn't
[01:34:01] <LeftWing> IT DOES
[01:34:04] <yuripv> no.
[01:34:05] <jbk> it does
[01:34:13] <LeftWing> Dude, I have personally found bugs during reviews
[01:34:24] <jbk> i just (today) had this happen
[01:34:29] <LeftWing> And I have definitely found things, even in tsoome's code, where I couldn't understand it without a comment. He put the comment in, and it was then good to go.
[01:34:30] <jbk> i had it all in my head, so it all made sense
[01:34:43] <yuripv> leave the "dude" stuff to yourself, please
[01:34:46] <LeftWing> I apologise.
[01:34:47] <jbk> but after discussion, it was obvious it wasn't nearly as obvious to others as it was to me
[01:35:18] <jbk> so i added comments so that hopefully someone else isn't scratching their head in the future
[01:35:20] <yuripv> having the code laying indefinitely around doesn't help
[01:35:29] <LeftWing> I know, and _that_ is what we need to work on.
[01:35:35] <LeftWing> Ditching review is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
[01:36:36] <yuripv> I know Robert does a great stuff and we wait several month on it
[01:36:58] <yuripv> having it in the gate would have us test it, but we can't
[01:37:19] <LeftWing> Having things in the gate that have not yet been testing is deeply unattractive
[01:37:33] <LeftWing> That's one of the terrifying things about FreeBSD CURRENT
[01:37:41] <yuripv> noone ships the gate.
[01:37:49] <LeftWing> We merge the gate almost daily
[01:38:06] <yuripv> you test it and report problems
[01:38:30] <LeftWing> Yes, but if we keep having problems because of busted changes in the gate where we had to catch the problems in our own testing, we'll merge less often
[01:38:34] <LeftWing> And that's the beginning of the quality death spiral
[01:38:51] <yuripv> oh lol, that picture
[01:39:12] <LeftWing> You can laugh all you want
[01:39:18] <LeftWing> It's a real phenomenon
[01:40:19] <yuripv> and there are a lot of other phenomenons, that I can't forward
[01:40:40] <LeftWing> It's a short set of steps: [1] we allow changes into the gate without testing, [2] we keep getting broken by merges, [3] we stop merging because we can't accept the risk, [4] we're not testing these changes anyway
[01:40:55] <yuripv> lol
[01:41:02] <LeftWing> Why do you think that's funny?
[01:41:13] <yuripv> otherwise you have it tested?\
[01:42:02] <yuripv> we are lacking manpower everywhere, yet you insist on doing some formal testing you did at sun?
[01:42:12] <LeftWing> I have never worked at Sun.
[01:42:37] <yuripv> I didn't too, but it's just hilarious
[01:43:26] <LeftWing> Well, I don't think it's hilarious. I'm not saying you need to do weeks of whatever "formal testing" means. But if you update a NIC driver, it'd be good to know that it still _works_ for instance.
[01:43:38] <yuripv> I can't provide "testing" so my change isn't getting integrated, your loss
[01:45:03] <yuripv> I had my change for autoreplace out for a year, out for RTI for same period, all I got -- I'll look at it :)
[01:45:21] <LeftWing> Like I said, I acknowledge that things have not been great for quite a while
[01:45:23] <LeftWing> I'm trying to improve that
[01:45:43] <LeftWing> I can't improve it right at this second -- not least of which because I'm currently just going around in circles talking about it, which takes me away from even trying to write an e-mail about smatch to John
[01:46:42] <yuripv> you can't Josh, and I don't blame you. I got what I wanted there in freebsd :)
[01:47:09] <LeftWing> Well, I'm glad.
[01:47:24] <yuripv> cool.
[01:47:43] <LeftWing> And hopefully illumos can be a better place for you to contribute some time soon, if you want.
[01:48:26] <yuripv> I really want, all I did there is applicable here
[01:49:07] <yuripv> I'm just waiting...
[01:54:11] <igork> yuripv: you want to be advocate ? :)
[01:57:05] <yuripv> I'm devil's advocate; not suited for your needs
[01:57:18] <igork> :)
[01:57:18] <LeftWing> ha
[02:00:40] <yuripv> igork: and no, I don't want to be an advocate; you seem to be better in that role
[02:02:04] <yuripv> I can merge whatever changes are done in illumos-gate to our fork, no problem.
[02:05:30] <igork> yuripv: welcome to angry RTI team :)
[02:05:50] <yuripv> igork: ?!
[02:06:09] <igork> yuripv: no joke today?
[02:06:34] <yuripv> igork: I don't get it?
[02:06:53] <igork> yuripv: i see your comment about RTI :)
[02:07:07] <yuripv> and?
[02:07:18] <yuripv> (still don't get it)
[02:07:57] <igork> and you repeat my words about tsoome commits :)
[02:08:12] <yuripv> I didn't.
[02:08:32] <yuripv> what you said is your take on it.
[02:08:36] <igork> really ? you tried to say about - provide access to tsoome for commit - no?
[02:08:55] <yuripv> no.
[02:09:16] <yuripv> I didn't try anything.
[02:09:41] <igork> ok :) probably time to slep
[02:09:44] <igork> sleep
[02:09:54] <yuripv> indeed.
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[03:05:22] <yuripv> I'm just trying to catch gdamore, as he's no doubt usable and smart, but being here once a year or two isn' really applicable
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[03:07:36] <yuripv> and https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=233244 this is cool, not sure if i'd should fix it
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[08:11:14] <tsoome> erm?
[08:11:40] <LeftWing> Hi :P
[08:11:57] <tsoome> moin:)
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[11:12:38] <sjorge> tsoome: did you sleep with your ears ringing all night :p
[11:13:00] <tsoome> they did not ring:P
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   November 18, 2018
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