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   January 6, 2019  
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[00:03:31] <Vidrep_64> waddlesplash, I'll reopen the ticket if it happens again (cross fingers)
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[01:10:37] <HAIKU-irker286> haiku.master: * hrev52716 [1 commit] https://git.haiku-os.org/haiku/log/?qt=range&q=954a0a0c3383+%5Eb98f12a6017e
[01:10:37] <HAIKU-irker286> 954a0a0c3383: Fix some cases of updating draw state while recording a BPicture
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[04:16:07] <leorize> waddlesplash: so we would need a new syscall just to change pthread defaults... do you have any better idea?
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[06:17:57] <waddlesplash> leorize: don't we have any set thread attr syscalls?
[06:18:12] <waddlesplash> isn't setstacksize an attr call or something
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[08:14:08] <Begasus> g'morning peeps
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[08:30:37] <Forza> Begasus: morning
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[08:49:40] <Begasus> morning Forza
[08:49:57] <Forza> Just making coffee ☕
[08:50:17] <Forza> C[_]
[08:51:38] <Begasus> first cup is almost empty :)
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[09:09:11] <Begasus> moin humdinger !
[09:09:18] <humdinger> morning!
[09:11:34] <Forza> Begasus: yep... Need many cups to wake up
[09:13:39] <brobostigon> guten morgen haikuers, :)
[09:16:01] <Begasus> moin brobostigon :)
[09:16:13] <brobostigon> moin :)
[09:16:21] <humdinger> Morning brobostigon!
[09:16:28] <brobostigon> morning
[09:16:31] <humdinger> the little fellow still sleeping?
[09:16:48] <brobostigon> she has been awake for about an hour.
[09:18:35] <humdinger> oh. low-maintenance kid then... :)
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[09:19:12] <brobostigon> lol, not at all, she woke us up about 4 times during the night.
[09:20:18] <humdinger> wonderful... :P
[09:21:02] <brobostigon> that depends on your view.
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[09:55:33] <leorize> waddlesplash: nope, it's not a syscall
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[10:13:03] <Begas_VBox> hi leorize! :)
[10:13:11] <leorize> hi Begasus :)
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[11:16:39] <brobostigon> woop, success, setup a customer and order db, to track customers and orders, :)
[11:18:35] <Begasus> congrats :)
[11:19:03] <brobostigon> :)
[11:19:56] <brobostigon> needs some thorough testing now, i dont want it to break and loose customers details and orders everywhere.
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[11:45:26] <Forza> brobostigon: ön haiku
[11:45:32] <Forza> On
[11:46:00] <brobostigon> haiku on?
[11:46:15] <Forza> Your db
[11:47:00] <brobostigon> its a postgresql server running on debian, however the client end is haiku, yes.
[11:47:32] <Forza> Is there any comersial interest in using Haiku in some fashion?
[11:47:42] <Forza> brobostigon: cool
[11:48:22] <brobostigon> at the moment, its only personal interest in using haiku, but i would like to be able to use it more, especially at work.
[11:50:24] <brobostigon> and having postgresql ported is one step closer, as that is what we use for quite a few different things.
[11:53:37] <Scarecrow> I gather there's some commercial sound-related systems using Haiku but I'm not sure on the specifics
[11:54:13] <brobostigon> interesting, i didnt know that.
[11:57:06] <Barrett> TuneTracker
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[12:04:26] <brobostigon> my interest is mostly because i want our devs to have a more efficiant and simpler system to use, and haiku fits the bill perfecly. but having used BeOS and haiku pretty much since both of them started to be developed, i have an interest in that aspect too.
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[12:08:21] <Scarecrow> software is too complicated with too many moving parts and I feel that Haiku mostly avoids that
[12:09:16] * brobostigon agrees.
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[12:30:00] <Forza> Scarecrow: yea. Seems to me that Haiku just works
[12:30:12] <Scarecrow> it just werkz
[12:30:33] <Forza> Though some minor things like SMB and printing is still limited
[12:39:01] <Scarecrow> I have no doubt that with time they'll be cleanly improved
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[12:47:26] <BrunoSpr> thanks Dario fre:ac worked great to convert .wav files from CD to .ogg files
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[13:04:18] <Forza> Scarecrow: yep think so too
[13:04:49] <Forza> I'm surprised how many ported apps are available
[13:06:48] <Forza> Still would like to see seamless integration with vbox. I think most users are still using vm rather than bare machine install
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[13:12:15] * brobostigon has had installs of haiku on acutal hw, for about ten years now, never used it in a vm.
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[13:17:47] <Not-8d6a> [haikuports/haikuports] korli pushed 1 commit to master [+2/-2/±0] https://git.io/fhs3H
[13:17:49] <Not-8d6a> [haikuports/haikuports] Begasus 4b72592 - uriparser: bump version (#3547)
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[14:17:39] <haalvor> hello
[14:19:04] <brobostigon> afternoon
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[15:20:28] <Not-8d6a> [haikuports/haikuports] diversys pushed 1 commit to master [+1/-1/±1] https://git.io/fhsnq
[15:20:29] <Not-8d6a> [haikuports/haikuports] diversys db09b9b - freetype: bump version
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[15:33:40] <Rajagopalan> hello guys!
[15:34:55] <brobostigon> afternoon
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[15:35:18] <Rajagopalan> afternoon brobostigon
[15:35:31] <Rajagopalan> hello begasus leorize
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[15:50:26] <thaflo> hello all
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[15:58:01] <brobostigon> afternoon
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[16:05:52] * thaflo is amazed of QMPlay2
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[16:12:16] <Begasus> 'lo peeps :)
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[16:18:34] <brobostigon> https://imagebin.ca/v/4SaanBP2N2lU :)
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[16:24:02] <Begasus> nice brobostigon
[16:25:09] <brobostigon> ty, :), just needs some good testing now. adding loads of theoretical orders and customers, erasing them, changing them, see what happens.
[16:25:21] <Begasus> ok, trying to use llvm7 doesn't seem to work for me (failed to find a match for "devel:libllvm_7_x86": Name not found)
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[16:33:02] <brobostigon> i think i will create a python script to automate adding and removing table entries.
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[17:10:39] <Begas_VBox> https://ibb.co/xsXsdwT :)
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[17:31:00] <Begasus> hi Vidrep_64 !
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[17:36:27] <Begasus> 'lo leorize :)
[17:36:42] <leorize> hi Begasus :)
[17:37:29] <Begasus> wanted to give clazy a try with llvm7 but seems it conflicts if you have llvm5 installed :P
[17:37:42] <Begasus> think haikuporter can't resolve the conflict
[17:39:08] <Vidrep_64> Hi Begasus, leorize
[17:39:40] <leorize> Begasus: just remove llvm5_devel :P
[17:39:58] <Vidrep_64> Begasus, I saw some comment, where you thanked Barrett for something to do with "StreamRadio"
[17:40:01] <Begasus> tried that :P
[17:40:27] <Begasus> yeah Vidrep_64 , iirc he was the one pointing to the sollution
[17:41:13] <Vidrep_64> You mean so it works on both nightly and Beta?
[17:41:24] <Begasus> it's not needed on the beta
[17:41:35] <Begasus> the headers haven't switched places there
[17:41:45] <Begasus> so that's why the PR can't be merged
[17:42:23] <Vidrep_64> As far as pointing to codecs, I've done the patch locally and it works fine on nightlies
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[17:42:46] <Begasus> with a check to find out if you are able to check your running system (nightlies or beta)
[17:43:05] <Begasus> yeah, it's ok on the nightlies, the switch has been made there
[17:43:41] <Begasus> so it only needs to apply on the nightlies, not on the beta
[17:44:33] <Begasus> maybe something like in the requirements haiku >= hrev...?
[17:45:17] <Begasus> but that would be for the recipe, not the source
[17:46:05] <leorize> well, but beta hrev is static
[17:46:05] <Vidrep_64> Ah, OK
[17:46:12] <leorize> and nightlies are still rolling
[17:46:36] <Begasus> correct leorize , so atleast 1+ for the hrev could solve it for the recipe?
[17:47:05] <Vidrep_64> Just finished DLing hrev52716 to see if printing is indeed working correctly on real hardware
[17:47:37] <Vidrep_64> That was an old ticket.
[17:48:07] <Begasus> don't have any printer connected to the native one, so can't check that :)
[17:48:27] <Begasus> ok, clazy seems to be doing ok for llvm7 so far
[17:48:31] <Vidrep_64> I have plenty of different makes to test with
[17:48:49] <Begasus> we provide the tools, you can check ;)
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[17:52:53] <Vidrep_64> I like this Beta bug fixing phase much better than the Alpha
[17:53:35] <Vidrep_64> You can see Haiku slowly and finally shaping into a everyday use OS
[17:55:09] <Begasus> it's certenly improving +1
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[17:57:49] <neplevitan> hmmm, how far is direct rendering ?
[18:02:38] <Begasus> bbl
[18:02:49] <Begasus> probably still needs work neplevitan :)
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[18:19:29] <Vidrep_64> PulkoMandy, is Web+ 1.6.8 still not building?
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[18:29:54] <Vidrep_64> Printing works properly now :)
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[18:33:36] <Vidrep_64> Converting or printing to PDF produces a blank page
[18:33:55] <Vidrep_64> That used to work...regression
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[18:41:14] <Not-8d6a> [haikuports/haikuports] korli pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±2] https://git.io/fhsBY
[18:41:15] <Not-8d6a> [haikuports/haikuports] SpartanJ 8b45d8b - mercurial: fixes gcc2 build. (#3538)
[18:41:37] <Rajagopalan> is there a native addon system in web+?
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[18:43:04] <silvernode_T420> Good morning from Arizona, I haven't been here in months, just updating my Haiku USB install. How is everyone?
[18:43:30] <Barrett> that rework of the codec kit is going to take long than I expected
[18:43:36] <Barrett> hi silvernode_T420
[18:44:19] <Vidrep_64> Hi Barrett
[18:44:23] <silvernode_T420> Barrett, you are reworking the codec kit?
[18:44:23] <Barrett> hey Vidrep_64
[18:44:40] <Barrett> silvernode_T420, yes I introduced it a few weeks ago
[18:44:51] <Barrett> and I'm introducing parts of the new media framework
[18:44:58] <Barrett> it starts there
[18:46:14] <silvernode_T420> Barrett, oh neat, does that mean that audio will play out of both speakers instead of one on my ThinkPad T420? :)
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[18:47:31] <Barrett> silvernode_T420, this seems mostly dependant on the driver
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[18:47:51] <Barrett> did you report the bug?
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[18:49:31] <Barrett> working on the hda driver has been on my TODO for quite a few time, but time is never enough
[18:49:38] <Barrett> and I value the new media framework more
[18:50:05] <Barrett> having more applications, increases the chanches of attracting developers
[18:50:15] <silvernode_T420> Barrett, I haven't reported it to the bug tracker yet, but I have mentioned it here. Another user with the same Machine has the same problem.
[18:50:18] <Barrett> a good driver alone isn't enough
[18:51:13] <Barrett> silvernode_T420, if you put headphones the same happens?
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[18:53:21] <silvernode_T420> Barrett, Speaking of Drivers, I noticed the that WiFI driver on My thinkpad is faster and more reliable shortly after the beta released. Did we upgrade to new BSD drivers?
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[18:55:06] <silvernode_T420> I shouldn't say shortly, I waited months after the beta to update the nightly
[18:55:23] <Barrett> silvernode_T420, yes waddlesplash upgraded the freebsd layer and solved various longstanding issues
[19:03:23] <silvernode_T420> Barrett, Well it's done wonders
[19:03:31] <silvernode_T420> brb, reboot for upgrade
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[19:10:36] <silvernode_T420> Back
[19:13:30] <Begasus> Front
[19:13:57] <silvernode_T420> Side?
[19:14:07] <Begasus> Deppends :)
[19:14:42] <Begasus> Should polish my English :)
[19:16:44] <freakazoid0223> why not german your english
[19:18:18] <Begas_VBox> My German could use some polishing too :)
[19:18:38] <Begas_VBox> (ps native is Dutch)
[19:19:48] * freakazoid0223 likes Polish watter ice
[19:20:40] <Begas_VBox> :)
[19:20:44] <silvernode_T420> So I just Got Morrowind on Steam to test OpenMW, so far on my Linux desktop it's running fantastic! Now to try it on Haiku, I remember seeing early screenshots in the telegram group. Glad to see it got merged in.
[19:25:27] <Begasus> so, vacation ends today, back to work tomorrow :)
[19:25:32] <silvernode_T420> Before that, is there a way to select a default audio player?
[19:25:43] <silvernode_T420> Begasus, I gotta wait until August for My vacation
[19:25:59] <silvernode_T420> But my 3 day weekend starts today
[19:26:13] <Begasus> I think you can use "FileTypes" to select an app for some kind of mimetype?
[19:26:43] <Begasus> I got that every week now silvernode_T420 (3 day weekend), the benifit of getting older :)
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[19:27:03] <silvernode_T420> Begasus, I'll check that out. I just want Bepodder to Launch the default sound player
[19:27:14] <silvernode_T420> Begasus, in 8 years I will be 40
[19:27:41] <Begasus> in 8 years I'll be almost 64 silvernode_T420 :)
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[19:28:35] <silvernode_T420> Begasus, I'll be saying that soon enough!
[19:29:00] <Begasus> time flies, you're still in your prime time :)
[19:29:55] <Begasus> so, native install closed down :)
[19:30:34] <silvernode_T420> Begasus, Native install of ?
[19:30:43] <Begasus> Haiku (on the other laptop)
[19:31:56] <Begasus> it served me well in the last months, now it can take some rest
[19:32:58] <silvernode_T420> Begasus aw, so it died then.
[19:33:41] <Begasus> no, now it's taking it's vacation, want have that much time to spent as I did in the last months on it
[19:34:23] <silvernode_T420> BegasusWhat model Laptop is it?
[19:34:38] <Begasus> it's an older Acer
[19:34:46] <silvernode_T420> Begasus eeePC?
[19:34:54] <Begasus> can't tell the model of my head
[19:34:55] <silvernode_T420> nevermind, that's Asus
[19:35:07] <Begasus> no not eeePC, standard laptop
[19:35:09] <silvernode_T420> I always forget Acer Exists
[19:35:33] <Begasus> fully dedicated to Haiku, no other OS's on it anymore
[19:35:56] <silvernode_T420> I thought eeePC probably because I have the 1050PE, Haiku is the only thing that runs better than decent on it.
[19:36:29] <silvernode_T420> I have tried, Void Linux, Debian, and even Chromium OS on the eeePC, but Haiku is all it can run
[19:36:49] <Begasus> it had run Debian/Ubuntu/BeOS R5/Zeta and now Haiku on it (back then multiboot)
[19:37:30] <Begasus> think this thing is atleast 10 years old :)
[19:37:37] <silvernode_T420> I thought temporarily putting my primary SSD in there would speed up the eeepc but not even that can make up for the terrible Atom CPU.
[19:38:04] <Begasus> never been in contact with eeePC, so wouldn't know
[19:38:52] <Begasus> only thing missing there is sound atm, other than that it runs pretty nice here :)
[19:40:09] <Begasus> a lot more stable then running VBox on this one for larger projects (building)
[19:40:23] <silvernode_T420> funny story about ow I got mine. My girlfriend needed a laptop when hers died so I went on craigslist and found a listing for an eeepc with mxed out RAM (2gb) for $90. So I decided, that's all I needed for day to day tasks and drive straight to the guys house to buy it. Looked to be a guy in his 70s, and he explained that he maxed out the RAM and reinstalled Windows 7 Starter edition.
[19:40:56] <Begasus> wow!
[19:41:17] <silvernode_T420> Now when I got it, I really don't remember it being as slow as it is now.
[19:41:36] <silvernode_T420> I was actually able to use it for a bunch of tasks
[19:42:27] <silvernode_T420> Haiku is probably what I am going back to. I will take this USB drive that I am using to type to you on with and just install it to the eeePC...because haiku is great like that.
[19:43:17] <Begasus> My main OS is still Ubuntu (on this laptop), but I can see that the native install on the other laptop is prommising to do the heavier work needed for day to day job (even if I mainly use it as a dev laptop)
[19:43:46] <Begasus> you take what serves you best :)
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[19:43:59] <HAIKU-irker299> haiku.master: * hrev52717 [1 commit] https://git.haiku-os.org/haiku/log/?qt=range&q=54333f517292+%5E954a0a0c3383
[19:43:59] <HAIKU-irker299> 54333f517292: Don't do LCD subpixel filtering twice
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[19:44:18] <silvernode_T420> Begasus, Have you had the pleasure of trying Void Linux before?
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[19:44:50] <Begasus> no haven't checked that out silvernode_T420
[19:45:10] <Begasus> pleased with Ubuntu atm, it's doing what I ask from it :)
[19:45:19] <Barrett> Begasus, do you believe I never tried Zeta
[19:45:26] <Barrett> mainly because it didn't boot
[19:45:37] <Barrett> and when I tried to understand why, it was all german
[19:45:53] <Begasus> lol Barrett :)
[19:45:57] <Begasus> sorry ;)
[19:46:02] <silvernode_T420> Barrett, Zeta sounds familiar hmmm
[19:46:22] <silvernode_T420> reminds me of Aliens mostly
[19:46:28] <Begasus> :)
[19:46:39] <Begasus> ok, time to close down here, g'night peeps!
[19:46:44] <silvernode_T420> Begasus, gnight
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[19:47:58] <silvernode_T420> So yeah I think I have narrowed my favorite operating systems down these days after years of testing. Void Linux and Haiku. both lightweight and highly portable with no systemd :)
[19:48:41] <silvernode_T420> Void is rolling though highly reliable compared to others I have used. Ubuntu is what I go with for stability and work (sometimes Fedora)
[19:48:55] <Barrett> silvernode_T420,Zeta was a BeOS sequel based on the BeOS source
[19:49:13] <silvernode_T420> Barrett, Oh yeah, I did read up on that
[19:49:15] <Barrett> that then we discovered never had a legal license
[19:50:04] <silvernode_T420> I'm still getting familar with the main core Haiku team since I have only been around for about 2 years on and off. I like to get to know everyone when I get heavily invested
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[19:50:43] <silvernode_T420> I tried Alpha 4 and then started using nightlies after Augustas was on Lunduke's show.
[19:50:58] <silvernode_T420> I think that's his name
[19:51:26] <silvernode_T420> he really got me excited again about Haiku
[19:52:03] <silvernode_T420> Since then I have been donating $10 a month to the Haiku Foundation
[19:52:13] <silvernode_T420> although this month I had to pause it
[19:52:26] <B2IT> (AGMS) https://www.osnews.com/story/29654/Haiku_s_Augustin_Cavalier_on_the_Lunduke_Hour
[19:52:40] <silvernode_T420> yeah that's the one
[19:52:49] <silvernode_T420> I listened to the follow up show recently
[19:53:18] <silvernode_T420> I was pleased to hear a long segment about Haiku on the Linux Unplugged podcast. They all Love Haiku over there.
[19:54:23] <silvernode_T420> Speaking of Lunduke, visiting his site lunduke.com with webpositive is amazing
[19:54:34] <B2IT> (AGMS) There certainly has been a lot more activity since Beta1 came out.
[19:54:35] <silvernode_T420> No javascript!
[19:54:55] <silvernode_T420> B2IT or really, how much more activity compared to before?
[19:55:02] <silvernode_T420> that's really good
[19:55:09] <silvernode_T420> oh*
[19:55:29] <B2IT> (AGMS) Yes, more than before, lots of new users asking questions and posting on the forum.
[19:55:51] <B2IT> (AGMS) Maybe 50% more activity?
[19:56:03] <silvernode_T420> B2IT, that's insane!
[19:56:27] <B2IT> (AGMS) Makes it harder to keep up with reading all posts :-)
[19:56:35] <waddlesplash> indeed
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[19:56:57] <silvernode_T420> I think the next major moment for haiku is when s3 and suspend is supported although I have been told that's going to be a huge challenge since not many people understand how to implement it.
[19:57:23] <silvernode_T420> Sounds like the perfect GSOC project.
[19:57:51] <silvernode_T420> I think you told me that waddlesplash
[19:57:58] <waddlesplash> yep
[19:58:12] <silvernode_T420> You said something along the lines of "if it were easy, we'd already have it"
[19:59:21] <silvernode_T420> Well I think we can all agree that before any final release, suspend is something that has to be supported. Too many people just expect it to work.
[20:00:32] <silvernode_T420> Before that, I presume that full hardware acceleration will be a heavy targeted goal.
[20:00:57] <mmu_man> yeah, no single driver have any support for suspend, nor the kernel
[20:02:54] <silvernode_T420> Hmm, I am trying to transfer my Morrowing files over to Haiku, for some reason I thought NTFS was supported. I can't imagine I formatted this drive with a journaling filesystem though..
[20:03:01] <silvernode_T420> Morrowind*
[20:03:23] <silvernode_T420> I probably did since it's a large drive
[20:03:50] <B2IT> (AGMS) I thought NTFS worked, at least read only. Did you check the mount disks menu to see if it shows up there?
[20:04:22] <silvernode_T420> B2IT, Ah I should check that. It's been awhile since I navigated Haiku
[20:04:33] <B2IT> (AGMS) Right click on the desktop background to get the menu.
[20:05:09] <silvernode_T420> B2IT, there it is! and mounted!
[20:05:11] <silvernode_T420> thanks
[20:05:27] <B2IT> (AGMS) Easy one!
[20:06:19] <silvernode_T420> So I don't expect OpenMW to be amazing with software acceleration on a Thinkpad, but here goes nothing
[20:07:13] <silvernode_T420> 300 files of 3,000
[20:07:26] <silvernode_T420> make that 7,000
[20:07:52] <silvernode_T420> USB 2.0, ....
[20:08:45] <silvernode_T420> I think if Morrowind works well on Haiku and the Thinkpad, I will force myself to beat the game.
[20:08:51] <B2IT> (AGMS) File copying seems to use up all system memory, unless fixed recently. So mouse stops moving during copy, best not to start new programs.
[20:09:34] <silvernode_T420> B2IT, nope, no mouse lag or any lag at all and haiku is running fully from it's own USB drive, not installed to the internal drive
[20:09:50] <silvernode_T420> Transfer complete
[20:09:55] <silvernode_T420> worked like a charm
[20:10:13] <silvernode_T420> opening OpenMW now
[20:10:57] <silvernode_T420> Well it didn't crash, going through Wizard
[20:11:31] <Barrett> suspend would be a very big task
[20:11:46] <Barrett> but we still lack the general support at OS level
[20:12:09] <Barrett> maybe hibernation would be easier to obtain
[20:12:19] <Barrett> and given the fast boot of Haiku very equivalent
[20:12:53] <silvernode_T420> Barrett, I would be fine with hibernate, just anything to hold me over until suspend
[20:13:14] <Barrett> silvernode_T420, hibernation/suspend is vital for my workflow
[20:13:45] <silvernode_T420> so I launched the game, the music started playing from the game but the Windows said "No OpenGL renderer"
[20:13:54] <silvernode_T420> and then I got a crash dialog
[20:14:03] <silvernode_T420> The system is still fine though
[20:14:17] <silvernode_T420> I swear I had Mesa installed, hmm
[20:14:18] <Barrett> in theory hibernation is just a dump of the ram on hard drive
[20:14:29] <Barrett> and support for the kernel to restore to that state
[20:14:40] <Barrett> where suspend, is much more complex
[20:14:47] <silvernode_T420> Barrett, it's important to my workflow too, but yeah it seems like hibernation should be a bit easier
[20:14:49] <waddlesplash> Barrett: suspend is the same thing
[20:15:04] <waddlesplash> except you don't dump the RAM, the RAM stays active
[20:15:32] <waddlesplash> it's significantly easier to deal with than hibernate actually, because all the page tables and mappings are still valid
[20:15:48] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplash, hmm, so it dumps it to the HD but keeps the RAM running to load it back in quickly so it appears like you never moved anytihng and kept working?
[20:15:54] <waddlesplash> so, it's hibernate that comes after suspend, not the other way around
[20:16:17] <waddlesplash> silvernode_T420: suspend never dumps to HD, if it does that's technically hibernate+suspend
[20:16:30] <waddlesplash> suspend turns off the CPU, HDD, and all other devices but RAM
[20:16:41] <waddlesplash> and probably the north bridge
[20:16:52] <silvernode_T420> so it just holds everything in RAM and simply powers down everything else in the machine that isn't currently needed?
[20:16:59] <waddlesplash> yes
[20:17:07] <silvernode_T420> I mean that's how it seems like it works in practice
[20:17:20] <waddlesplash> you have to do a lot of hardware reinit after coming out of suspend
[20:17:30] <waddlesplash> that's where the difficulty is
[20:17:34] <B2IT> (AGMS) So all the device drivers, network stack need to handle a warm restart?
[20:17:50] <waddlesplash> just drivers, usually
[20:19:14] <silvernode_T420> We really need to figure out a way to get suspend going. Maybe a fundrasier and call to arms for someone who has a lot more experience. Raise the money, Pay them, try to figure out what the hell he/she did.
[20:19:44] <waddlesplash> uh ... it's not actually that complicated to do
[20:19:54] <waddlesplash> it's just tedious and requires a lot of knowledge of how things fit together
[20:20:00] <waddlesplash> and there aren't that many people with that knowledge
[20:20:13] <waddlesplash> given time, probably any of the kernel developers could acquire it, and implement it
[20:21:33] <silvernode_T420> I really wish I could just pour a ton of money in and hope that gets us there asap.
[20:22:03] <silvernode_T420> but a ton of money for me is $100
[20:22:09] <silvernode_T420> and that's nothing
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[20:23:09] <silvernode_T420> Is there some kind of bounty system in place for Haiku?
[20:23:29] <silvernode_T420> I don't think the server costs and whatnot would outweigh that
[20:23:54] <silvernode_T420> Correction, I do think the server costs would outweigh that
[20:24:32] <silvernode_T420> The foundation can only provide so much
[20:24:40] <waddlesplash> outweigh it?
[20:25:00] <waddlesplash> we currently have around ~$55,000 in liquid assets
[20:25:13] <Barrett> waddlesplash, okay I thought handling with the power management would be more difficult.
[20:25:28] <Barrett> but I believe on the word then
[20:25:29] <waddlesplash> well, or we did, at the end of 2017; but since we haven't spent much more than server costs, we still have that much
[20:25:48] <waddlesplash> Barrett: yes, tqh will know more, as he's the ACPI guru, but it's actually not so difficult, just a lot of little pieces to fit together
[20:27:11] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplash, well if there were a vote, I would certainly vote to make that the next big puzzle to solve
[20:27:22] <tqh> It will need a lot of work, waking up and reinit hardware, saving mem to disk and so on. Took Linux years to even get close to right and they are not really done yet.
[20:27:36] <silvernode_T420> I find myself shutting the lid and then remember that it doesn't suspend
[20:28:19] <tqh> Would be much easier with apps to store state and just shutdown
[20:28:22] <silvernode_T420> would it be possible to use any of the Linux code as a workaround until there is an official solution?
[20:28:46] <silvernode_T420> I'm not a systems level developer so I don't know
[20:28:51] <waddlesplash> nope
[20:28:56] <silvernode_T420> damn
[20:29:05] <waddlesplash> tqh: FreeBSD network drivers already handle suspend/resume hooks
[20:29:07] <tqh> no, you need to tell all hw to power down in the right order and wake them up in the right order and add missing functionality in drivers
[20:29:34] <waddlesplash> USB drivers are already wired in such a way that we need to add this to the bus drivers but that's it
[20:29:34] <tqh> and spend a few years with all the buggy hardware
[20:29:54] <waddlesplash> not really, the buggy hardware we can see what Linux and FreeBSD did already
[20:30:24] <tqh> it is not that easy, they worked around it for how their OS works
[20:30:48] <silvernode_T420> Well I vote for trying to get apps to suspend until something better
[20:31:02] <waddlesplash> hmm
[20:31:18] <waddlesplash> actually implementing hibernate on a per-app basis is probably possible-ish
[20:31:27] <waddlesplash> the issue is the kernel-related data structures, for the most part
[20:31:47] <tqh> for instance in ACPI some machines expect shutdown to happen on CPU0 (really old ACPI) but during shutdown if we switch to cpu0 by stopping all others everything hangs
[20:31:50] <Barrett> tqh, Haiku surely needs support to restore sessions...but I don't think it will ever be close to what suspend can give
[20:32:12] <waddlesplash> tqh: that's a scheduler bug
[20:32:34] <waddlesplash> it happens when you just manually disable all but one CPU too
[20:32:37] <waddlesplash> someone needs to fix it...
[20:32:44] <tqh> waddlesplash, I never managed to get that.
[20:33:05] <waddlesplash> I think I have, but it's been a while since I did it
[20:33:37] <tqh> On shutdown I can, but then everything is shutdown so can't really get much info.
[20:34:06] <Not-8d6a> [haikuports/haikuports] waddlesplash pushed 1 commit to master [+1/-1/±0] https://git.io/fhsu3
[20:34:08] <Not-8d6a> [haikuports/haikuports] Begasus b815125 - tinyxml2, bump version, use cmake for the build (#3522)
[20:34:22] <tqh> would need to have a framebuffer and onscreen log during those last steps just to have a clue
[20:34:26] <waddlesplash> tqh: huh? everything is shutdown? we don't delete any devices
[20:34:26] <PulkoMandy> hi there
[20:34:38] <waddlesplash> tqh: you can still panic() and get data
[20:34:41] <silvernode_T420> I forgot what the task manager equivilent in Haiku is and how to access it
[20:34:54] <PulkoMandy> btw, PalmOS did something like that (freezing apps to RAM, in their case) and it worked quite well
[20:35:09] <tqh> waddlesplash, feel free to try. I never managed to get anywhere with it.
[20:35:15] <PulkoMandy> Android inherited some of this and can kill an app to save RAM, then restore it from a backup later on, basically
[20:35:18] <waddlesplash> tqh: I know absolutely nothing about ACPI
[20:35:25] <PulkoMandy> (it doesn't work exacly like this, but it's the general idea)
[20:35:29] <waddlesplash> so, that wouldn't go so well :)
[20:35:31] <PulkoMandy> so I don't see why it wouldn't work for us
[20:35:37] <waddlesplash> PulkoMandy: indeed
[20:35:40] <tqh> you said it was cpu scheduler, has nothing to do with ACPI
[20:36:00] <PulkoMandy> the question is, is it easier to patch all apps to handle this, or is it easier to patch all drivers to work with traditional suspend
[20:36:07] <PulkoMandy> and possibly, which solution is more elegant
[20:36:29] <PulkoMandy> if we manage to suspend apps to disk, we get something quite nice I'd say
[20:36:31] <waddlesplash> tqh: that was a guess, I don't recall, this was before I actually got into kernel developer
[20:36:37] <PulkoMandy> but suspend to ram, I don't know
[20:36:44] <tqh> saving app state is very nice, but how would it work with bash scripts and crap.
[20:36:52] <PulkoMandy> maybe with SSDs nowadays it's ok to skip suspend to RAM?
[20:37:09] <silvernode_T420> Could we do something temporary like add a tab to the task viewer that allows the user to select an app (or multiple apps) currently running and dump some sort of state data to the disk and then later on click a button or hotkey to load them all back?
[20:37:32] <silvernode_T420> that would be nice even with suspend
[20:37:33] <waddlesplash> "temporary"?
[20:37:40] <waddlesplash> that would be 90% of hibernate. :-p
[20:37:50] <tqh> waddlesplash, as I said, I never managed to figure out what happens when the non boot cpus shutdown
[20:37:55] <silvernode_T420> haha, I'm just trying to brainstorm here
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[20:39:30] <silvernode_T420> My thought is that the system can just keep running and you can just save state data to some sort of file just like a game would save a file
[20:39:40] <Barrett> tqh, does hibernation involve handling with power management?
[20:39:58] <waddlesplash> Barrett: nope, only suspend does
[20:40:02] <tqh> the biggest problem is it touches everything, network stack, from wifi to dhcp to drivers, drivers, cpu, pagetables and such so it needs many kernel devs to work together as well
[20:40:03] <silvernode_T420> but my idea does sound like 90% of hibernation
[20:40:12] <waddlesplash> hibernate is a full power-off, from the perspective of power management it's the same as shutdown
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[20:40:43] <tqh> Barrett, yes, you need to do a lot of setup preparing and restoring.
[20:41:47] <tqh> it is not same as shutdown, you need to save mem to disk, and restore mem from disk in the most simplified explenation
[20:41:51] <waddlesplash> tqh: from the power management side, you don't
[20:41:58] <waddlesplash> from the kernel side, of course
[20:42:03] <tqh> yes, it is a power state
[20:42:15] <tqh> so it is all power management
[20:42:15] <waddlesplash> uh ... no? it's the same as shutdown
[20:42:27] <tqh> no it is not, it is a different sleep state
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[20:42:41] <waddlesplash> not anymore, I think
[20:42:45] <tqh> otherwise it would call ordinary boot on startup
[20:42:46] <waddlesplash> Windows implements it as shutdown now
[20:42:53] <waddlesplash> yes, that's what they do
[20:43:04] <waddlesplash> then once they get to userland init, they reload all applications from saved state
[20:43:21] <tqh> but that was what I suggested as alternative
[20:44:00] <tqh> that is not suspend.
[20:44:08] <waddlesplash> no, its hibernate...
[20:44:24] <waddlesplash> 2:39 PM <Barrett> tqh, does hibernation involve handling with power management?
[20:44:31] <waddlesplash> we're not talking about suspend right now :-p
[20:45:26] <tqh> ah
[20:45:31] <silvernode_T420> rofl
[20:45:36] <silvernode_T420> that banter was amusing
[20:46:27] <tqh> but I wouldn't really call that hibernate.
[20:46:38] <Barrett> waddlesplash, that's what I guessed but wanted to be sure.
[20:46:42] <waddlesplash> well, that's what everyone else calls hibernate...
[20:47:00] <waddlesplash> Barrett: yeah it requires a lot of kernel changes but none to power management
[20:47:04] <Barrett> I still think preparing the kernel to dump to the disk may be less problematic
[20:47:15] <waddlesplash> reloading I/O contexts and FDs is the trickiest part
[20:47:17] <Barrett> rather than handling power management
[20:48:08] <tqh> hibernate has been hw assisted, and is a term in ACPI and such, so this is not the same
[20:49:02] <silvernode_T420> I am glad I started a serious discussion, seems like something that needs it :P
[20:49:19] <waddlesplash> silvernode_T420: serious discussion? we're going to have fun with this for 30 minutes and forget about it tomorrow
[20:49:27] <waddlesplash> I'm not really joking about that either
[20:49:57] <waddlesplash> it's all just fun and games, until someone actually makes a new branch in their development repo :-p
[20:50:03] <silvernode_T420> I am going to bug my child prodigy friend to learn how all of this works and then add it to Haiku. :P
[20:50:11] <waddlesplash> LOL
[20:50:15] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplashsounds about right
[20:50:18] <tqh> Linux seems to call it Software suspend
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[20:50:42] <silvernode_T420> Just call up Linus and ask him, I'm sure he will understand
[20:51:43] <waddlesplash> Linus will just yell at us for using C++ in the kernel
[20:51:57] <silvernode_T420> Every time I think of contributing to Haiku, I hesitate since people will look at my code and face palm :)
[20:52:14] <silvernode_T420> I need to stop thinking everyone is Linus
[20:52:25] <silvernode_T420> Yeah Linus will tell you it need to be C
[20:52:54] * waddlesplash wonders if people were face-palming at his code 4 years ago
[20:52:55] <silvernode_T420> Meanwhile Jeremy soller has a full OS in Rust
[20:53:05] <waddlesplash> wow, I got commit access 4 years ago?! where has the time gone
[20:53:35] <silvernode_T420> 4 years ago? That's it? well I guess I should start trying more and stop worrying about being laughed at
[20:53:47] <silvernode_T420> I'll never get anywhere if I keep holding back
[20:53:57] <waddlesplash> well, that was after 1.5 years of submitting patches pretty regularly
[20:54:10] <silvernode_T420> and I keep feeling like the project needs me even though it probably doesn't
[20:54:11] <waddlesplash> eventually PulkoMandy and the rest got tired of me bugging them to apply my patches :-D
[20:54:19] <waddlesplash> nah, we need you
[20:54:52] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplash, do you really need beginner code annoying you every week?
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[20:55:24] <waddlesplash> depends what kind of beginner code
[20:55:36] <waddlesplash> not all "beginner code" is equal :-p
[20:55:39] <silvernode_T420> You'll look at a function and think " Why would he do this?"
[20:55:56] <silvernode_T420> Then you will read the comment and say "but it doesn't do this at all"
[20:56:09] <waddlesplash> well, let me be the judge of htat
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[20:56:14] <Barrett> silvernode_T420, it is very important that a contributor has the wish to learn
[20:56:24] <waddlesplash> and, I make stupid mistakes all the time
[20:56:29] <Barrett> so that we invest some time for a return
[20:56:37] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplash, not to mention, the closest thing to a programming language I am good at is Bash
[20:56:43] <waddlesplash> my work on the ipro1000 port took 2 days longer than it should have because I screwed up a lock order twice
[20:57:01] <silvernode_T420> Barrett, that is really true, thanks, that helps motivate me
[20:57:07] <Barrett> silvernode_T420, you can start with apps at HaikuArchives
[20:57:10] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplash, lol
[20:57:13] <Barrett> it is easier than the OS
[20:57:17] <PulkoMandy> eventually we get bored of "damn, I can't find any issue to point out in this patch, why do I have to bother reviewing it?"
[20:57:27] <Barrett> take one you love and fix something :)
[20:57:42] <Barrett> eventually you will come at fixing something in the OS
[20:57:52] <silvernode_T420> Barrett, oh that seems like a really good idea. Make old stuff work again!
[20:58:19] <silvernode_T420> That seems like the right path, go down that rabbit hole to lead me slowly into the deeper rabbit hole
[20:58:27] <Barrett> yeah
[20:58:28] <waddlesplash> silvernode_T420: https://github.com/haiku/haiku/commit/901de869a3e6d2c7a188f33d6669e1c0cd7ae244
[20:59:15] <waddlesplash> if you can (1) understand the code both before and after that commit, and (2) understand why I took 10 minutes to make that change ... congrats, you are an "intermediate programmer" :)
[20:59:24] <waddlesplash> even if it takes you 10 minutes to get both :-p
[21:00:30] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplash, well, this is my big moment then I guess :)
[21:00:39] <waddlesplash> :)
[21:01:32] <Barrett> PulkoMandy, do we have a GSoC ideas page already?
[21:01:46] <Barrett> I wanted to put that thing of reworking the mime-db
[21:01:59] <Barrett> that we discussed a while ago
[21:02:09] <leorize> I think we do have it?
[21:02:10] <waddlesplash> Barrett: nope, we don't
[21:02:19] <Barrett> then I have to create it I guess
[21:02:21] <waddlesplash> but it is probably time for PulkoMandy to put it up, yes
[21:02:29] <waddlesplash> well, he usually does all the pages at once
[21:02:34] <Barrett> leorize, I meant the new 2019 version ;)
[21:02:50] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplash, well looking at the code for 30 seconds and I can tell it's part of a GUI
[21:02:53] <PulkoMandy> oh I didn't create it already?
[21:03:12] <waddlesplash> Barrett: and I still am not sure the mime_db idea is a good one, generally we leave off ideas that haven't found agreement among developers since the proposals are likely to not get a majority
[21:03:33] <silvernode_T420> GSOC should be suspend for the whole summer :)
[21:04:59] <PulkoMandy> well we need to discuss GSoC ideas I guess
[21:05:12] <PulkoMandy> I think there are many ideas on the page and none of them has enough details on what we expect
[21:05:25] <PulkoMandy> and then students spend like 2 months trying to understand what we mean
[21:05:45] <PulkoMandy> or just give up after reading 2 or 3 ideas and seeing they don't understand anything
[21:06:02] <waddlesplash> well, we are an OS, so a lot of ideas are complicated...
[21:06:02] <PulkoMandy> we can't expect them to do basic research on 30-ish ideas to decide if one is suitable for them
[21:06:09] <waddlesplash> maybe we should order the page from easiest to hardest?
[21:06:47] <PulkoMandy> it's not about being complicated, it's about including some background info, and maybe having a separate page for each category so they can more easily browse to what they are skilled with
[21:07:14] <waddlesplash> or just include inline links at the top of the page...
[21:07:20] <waddlesplash> which is what we do for the FAQ already
[21:07:33] <Barrett> waddlesplash, I proposed a while ago to use the freedesktop thing
[21:07:38] <Barrett> and there was a general agreement
[21:07:40] <silvernode_T420> I think if a student sees that we don't have suspend, they will gasp and probably feel like they are on a mission from god
[21:08:12] <Barrett> shouldn't be that hard to replace the mime-db the only thing was to convert their format to our own BMessage stuff
[21:08:22] <Barrett> but we can just switch as well
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[21:09:58] <PulkoMandy> well, it can be tricky when apps provide their own types and sniffing rules, if we change the format we have to convert those as well
[21:10:05] <waddlesplash> right
[21:10:16] <waddlesplash> thus far, there are not many complaints about nonsupported mimetypes because of this
[21:10:23] <waddlesplash> and easy enough to add new ones when needed
[21:10:25] <Barrett> PulkoMandy, I almost forgot the plan I had at the time
[21:10:28] <waddlesplash> so, if it ain't broke, why fix it?
[21:10:36] <Barrett> but I will recover it once I get at the page
[21:10:43] <Barrett> but I remember it was workable
[21:10:48] <apl> Hi waddlesplash -- back to trying to get this Jamfile issue resolved. I now have it largely working, but the "pseudo targets" are marked "NotFile" and "Always" which is bad because the pseudo target 'always fires' causing the .cpp/.h files to get generated, causing everything to re-compile. If I turn off "Always" then there is nothing to trigger the pseudo target to build. What I need is that the pseudo target is built if an up-stream d
[21:10:51] <apl> ependency is needing building. For example, given ```Depends "generated.cpp" : pseudotarget```, if "generated.cpp" is missing then run the pseudotarget "Always". I'm not sure if I am missing something, but I can't see a way to do this with Jam. I have considered building the generated files into a sub-directory and using the sub-directory as the target instead of a pseudo target. Do you have any advice given your experience with this t
[21:10:53] <apl> ool?
[21:10:59] <PulkoMandy> waddlesplash: well, the webkit testsuite would run better if we could be smarter at html vs xhtml, for example
[21:11:25] <Barrett> ah yeah, we had to switch to their sniffing rules, that was the plan.
[21:12:01] <waddlesplash> replacing our sniffing rules with theirs would be much less invasive and fine by me
[21:12:06] <Barrett> at the time I've been working on a server-side service for recognizing files
[21:12:09] <waddlesplash> replacing everything would be problematic
[21:12:11] <Barrett> and it worked flawlessy
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[21:12:36] <waddlesplash> apl: make the real .cpp depend on pseudotarget?
[21:12:53] <PulkoMandy> we also should brainstorm on non-coding ideas for Outreachy
[21:12:54] <waddlesplash> i.e. Depednds SomeNonGenerated.cpp : allgenerated ;
[21:13:16] <PulkoMandy> they may also be able to help providing us co-mentors for UI/UX design work or the like
[21:13:18] <Barrett> PulkoMandy, what about documenting all the stuff so that we can get rid of the bebook?
[21:13:19] <apl> waddlesplash; I have done that, but then allgenerated is considering it's build triggers in isolation and it cannot see anything changed and so decides not to build.
[21:14:38] <Barrett> waddlesplash, we don't have to replace everything, just use the freedesktop lib that works very similar to our own
[21:14:49] <apl> What I need is that "allgenerated" builds if it is triggered as a dependency of something else regardless of its own triggers.
[21:14:50] <Barrett> all the other stuff like attrs remains like it's now
[21:14:50] <waddlesplash> apl: SomeNonGenerated.cpp -> allgenerated -> .py/.json
[21:14:53] <waddlesplash> that should be your deps
[21:15:01] <apl> Yes it is the deps.
[21:15:16] <waddlesplash> ok, so, when you touch a .py/.json, it should rebuild allgenerated and thus SomeNonGenerated
[21:15:17] <apl> "allgenerated" doesn't know what it is building though.
[21:15:45] <waddlesplash> oh, I see
[21:15:58] <apl> Yer it took me a while to figure out that was what is happening.
[21:16:14] <waddlesplash> OK in this case, you may want to do NonGenerated.cpp -> $(ALL_GENERATED) -> .py/json
[21:16:22] <waddlesplash> where $(ALL_GENERATED) refers to the paths to all generated headers
[21:16:29] <waddlesplash> or ... even better, just the directory they are put into
[21:16:35] <waddlesplash> and make the generation rule also make the directory
[21:16:39] <apl> That was my next plan.
[21:16:47] <apl> ^^^ see above.
[21:17:17] <apl> OK so I will try that next then. I was wondering if there was some little known flag that would do "Always but only when upstream needs it".
[21:17:24] <apl> ;-)
[21:17:35] <waddlesplash> how would it know "when upstream needs it"?
[21:17:49] <waddlesplash> you have to build the depgraph properly in order for jam to figure that out
[21:18:09] <waddlesplash> Barrett: how do we not replace the whole mimetype rdef system without losing a bunch of functionality?
[21:18:11] <apl> Yes I know.... I was just wondering if there was an "Always" but only when required.
[21:18:43] <apl> I'll try using a sub directory as the generation target and see how it goes.
[21:18:47] <waddlesplash> Barrett: e.g., our custom icons are easy enough to bring back, but then we also have rules about versioning and association within the mimetypes themselves
[21:19:24] <waddlesplash> Barrett: and especially the META:ATTR_INFO
[21:19:36] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplash, Void Linux might give some clues to figure out when upstream needs stuff. They got their build system pretty automatice (if I am on the right subject, skimming through the log here)
[21:19:40] <waddlesplash> so, just changing detection is fine with me, but we need to keep the mime_db around
[21:19:50] <waddlesplash> silvernode_T420: nah, that's something else
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[21:21:00] <Barrett> waddlesplash, as said I forgot the exact plan, but I didn't plan to replace everything so it's likely like you say
[21:21:08] <waddlesplash> OK
[21:22:32] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplash, I have been looking at the commit you sent me. Looks like that person does a lot of BS just to tell if the OK button is NULL and they don't even use the BAD_VALUE var provided by the toolkit but instead hacks his way around to do the exact same thing.
[21:23:14] <waddlesplash> silvernode_T420: there's no GUI going on here
[21:23:23] <waddlesplash> B_OK and B_BAD_VALUE are error codes
[21:23:30] <waddlesplash> i.e. constants
[21:24:34] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplash, I thought maybe, but wasn't entirely sure since it's part of directory.cpp which may or may not have been related to the frontend
[21:24:54] <waddlesplash> BDirectory is just a class for iterating directories
[21:25:10] <waddlesplash> it's not associated with the GUI per se, you can use it in non GUI apps
[21:25:44] <silvernode_T420> Yeah errors codes makes this much more readable, I just needed to orient myself with the entire situation here
[21:26:02] <silvernode_T420> In either case, he is doing a lot of useless stuff to reach the same goal
[21:27:04] <Barrett> also, another thing, I think we should incentivate GCI more on code contributions
[21:27:18] <Barrett> I think, we should add a coding welcome task, like submit a style fix patch
[21:27:23] <Barrett> and have tasks about writing tests
[21:27:31] <waddlesplash> I thought we did add a style fix task?
[21:28:12] <Barrett> yeah, I created those tasks originally at first GCI
[21:28:32] <Barrett> but I mean find some way to incentivate them to do some coding
[21:28:44] <Barrett> I think tests are something we need and easy enough for GCI students
[21:29:07] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplash, I tend to go your route when testing something these days. I used to methodically go through "if x == null, else if x != null then", but one day I realized, why not just do "if x != null;then do stuff"
[21:29:09] <Barrett> I had a little mention with scott in a private mail and wanted to raise the thing in ml before or after
[21:30:20] <Barrett> Haiku should have a continuous integration thing that runs tests at every commit
[21:31:08] <waddlesplash> yes, well, the problem is that most tests fail and nobody cares
[21:31:16] <Barrett> exactly
[21:31:16] <waddlesplash> or rather, a sizeable number do
[21:31:44] <waddlesplash> and there is also the problem that our unit test system is a nusiance to work with and add test to
[21:31:47] <waddlesplash> SO much boilerplate
[21:32:01] <silvernode_T420> waddlesplash, I get what is going on in a high level sense without being familar with the language or directory.cpp. The previous committer is jumping through hoops to handle a simple error case
[21:32:02] <Barrett> I never had the time to look at how it works
[21:32:22] <waddlesplash> Barrett: well if you never bothered to write tests, why run any? :-p
[21:32:38] <Barrett> I bothered, I have tests in media_client
[21:32:47] <Barrett> and I have a streaming test done during my contract
[21:33:13] <Barrett> but didn't want to lose time getting into it
[21:33:26] <Barrett> and I'd like to have some tests for the codec kit as well
[21:33:33] <Barrett> and the media2
[21:34:05] <Barrett> having students to do that for me would be cool.
[21:34:39] <tqh> btw software suspend is superior imo, we can handle any arch easier.
[21:35:02] <Barrett> tqh, but this needs support for every app
[21:35:31] <waddlesplash> Barrett: huh? no it does not; we can restore the memory state and IO contexts
[21:35:42] <waddlesplash> it's more work in the kernel, but MUCH less in drivers
[21:35:47] <Barrett> you need to do that also for the server
[21:35:48] <tqh> no, kernel would save mem and shutdown. On boot load mem instead of ordinary boot
[21:35:51] <waddlesplash> so it balances out
[21:36:08] <Barrett> it'd be probably better
[21:36:09] <waddlesplash> Barrett: nope, servers are just apps, they get their state reloaded too
[21:36:51] <Barrett> tqh, that's what I meant for hibernation
[21:36:55] <tqh> and means no messing with ACPI or ARM equivalent things or Risc or such
[21:37:12] <Barrett> that's why I've been saying it'd be easier than suspent
[21:37:15] <Barrett> *suspend
[21:37:17] <waddlesplash> tqh: once we did this kind of hibernate, then we could do a "partial suspend": suspend state&etc. to RAM, and then do a full "device probe & init" after wake, like a reboot
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[21:37:39] <waddlesplash> and that would probably be only slightly slower than a full, true suspend/resume, and we wouldn't have to worry about drivers or buggy hardware
[21:37:52] <Barrett> that'd be cool
[21:37:53] <tqh> ah, well Linux calls this newer hibernation 'software suspend' so I used that term. It's confusing with two approaches for hibernation
[21:38:32] <Barrett> tqh, on xfce it's called hibernation :)
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[21:38:37] <Barrett> but well, got it
[21:38:56] <tqh> for users it's all suspend/hibernate/shutdown yes
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[21:39:17] <tqh> for kernel devs who want to talk about different impls it gets more complicated
[21:40:40] <tqh> We could even make it default shutdown
[21:41:10] <Barrett> tqh, that's an interesting idea
[21:41:18] <Barrett> something futuristic
[21:41:43] <tqh> isn't that what you want to continue where you left off?
[21:41:53] <Barrett> yeah
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[21:42:53] <tqh> but someone would need to figure out how to do it
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[21:43:24] <Barrett> I wonder what happens when the power goes out and you boot
[21:43:35] <Barrett> you may have some inconsistent state somewhere
[21:43:44] <Barrett> but that should be workable
[21:47:24] <tqh> only a clean shutdown would save state, and a power out is not a shutdown. Not sure you would write on boot so the state file from the clean shutdown shouldn't be affected.
[21:50:39] <Barrett> right, that would not be different than a normal power out.
[21:50:40] <silvernode_T420> tqh, poweroff could just be hibernate, complete poweroff can be hold power button.
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[21:51:42] <tqh> hold button is hardwired outside the OS to just cut power
[21:56:17] <silvernode_T420> tqh, exactly
[21:56:55] <tqh> it's not really a clean shutdown so would need something else
[21:59:17] <silvernode_T420> tqh, well the OS could detect if you hold down the power button and then trigger a clean shutdown
[21:59:44] <tqh> it is hardwired, OS can't override that function
[22:02:13] <silvernode_T420> tqh, I mean more like what desktop environments can already do in Linux, when power button is pressed, shutdown or you can set it to ask, suspend, etc
[22:02:32] <silvernode_T420> that could end up being the default in Haiku
[22:02:58] <tqh> ah yes, simple press is ok, but holding is not overridable
[22:03:03] <silvernode_T420> the menu would just provide hibernate
[22:03:50] <silvernode_T420> deeper settings can reveal all options for power in the power menu in case someone doesn't have a laptop with a lid sensor and wants to suspend
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[22:14:58] <Barrett> even adding a boot option to disable that
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[22:28:19] <HAIKU-irker299> haiku.master: * hrev52718 [1 commit] https://git.haiku-os.org/haiku/log/?qt=range&q=ae09eb30c504+%5E54333f517292
[22:28:20] <HAIKU-irker299> ae09eb30c504: FlattenPictureTest: aestethic changes.
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[22:29:02] <The_Ringmaster> hello
[22:45:46] <silvernode_T420> The_Ringmaster hi
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[23:11:04] <Cenbe> Does Haiku support UEFI?
[23:12:48] <Cenbe> nm, found it: https://www.haiku-os.org/guides/uefi_booting/
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[23:41:13] <The_Ringmaster> any known issues with pkgman? I am getting a general system error that is preventing me from updating the system
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[23:41:49] <The_Ringmaster> this is happening on hrev52691
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   January 6, 2019  
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