August 12, 2012 
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August 12, 2012 [00:07:10] *** jayrulez has joined #haiku[00:07:43] <CIA-63> haiku.master: jscipione * hrev44515 http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/commit/?id=0de0cd6 : Remove trailing tab [2 commits][00:09:02] *** happy4crazy has joined #haiku[00:09:43] *** Blub\w has quit IRC[00:10:38] *** rdmr has quit IRC[00:11:47] *** Anarchos has joined #haiku[00:12:59] *** happy4crazy has quit IRC[00:13:26] *** happy4crazy has joined #haiku[00:17:39] *** happy4crazy has quit IRC[00:32:05] <CIA-63> haiku.master: jscipione * hrev44516 http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/commit/?id=a43b1ed : (log message trimmed)[00:32:05] <CIA-63> Split fs_darwin.h defines into various platform dependent headers.[00:32:05] <CIA-63> This completes the final 1/3 of #8857. Changes again by nielx with[00:32:05] <CIA-63> style fixes by me.[00:32:05] <CIA-63> The one part that I couldn't figure out, and maybe Ingo can chime[00:32:06] <CIA-63> in here. If headers/build/host/darwin/sys/stat.h is surrounded in[00:32:07] <CIA-63> extern "C" {[00:38:47] *** BitPuffin_ is now known as BitPuffin[00:39:16] *** dcase has quit IRC[00:46:53] *** PasNox has quit IRC[01:02:58] *** paul0 has quit IRC[01:04:05] *** DrHouse|TARDIS has joined #haiku[01:06:21] *** happy4crazy has joined #haiku[01:11:04] *** stargater has quit IRC[01:18:57] *** happy4crazy has quit IRC[01:19:23] *** happy4crazy has joined #haiku[01:24:27] *** happy4crazy has quit IRC[01:44:07] *** Ingenu has left #haiku[01:46:11] *** vooshy has joined #haiku[01:57:44] *** HaikuUser has joined #haiku[01:58:17] *** HaikuUser is now known as unheeding|haiku[02:05:56] <unheeding|haiku> when is Haiku 1.0 coming out!?[02:10:34] <jayrulez> tomorrow[02:10:56] <unheeding|haiku> is there a reason why i can't download anything with WebPositive?[02:11:29] <unheeding|haiku> i'm going to try restarting[02:11:41] <jayrulez> Last time I tried, I was able to download things with web+[02:11:47] *** unheeding|haiku has quit IRC[02:12:46] *** HaikuUser has joined #haiku[02:13:06] *** HaikuUser is now known as unheeding|haiku[02:14:28] <unheeding|haiku> still not downloading anything[02:14:29] <unheeding|haiku> hmmm[02:15:29] <jayrulez> which version of haiku?[02:16:49] *** unheeding has joined #haiku[02:17:20] *** unheeding|haiku has quit IRC[02:22:41] *** volci has joined #haiku[02:24:24] *** vooshy has quit IRC[02:24:50] *** BitPuffin_ has joined #haiku[02:26:54] *** BitPuffin has quit IRC[02:27:52] *** negusnyul has quit IRC[02:32:03] *** BitPuffin_ has quit IRC[02:34:59] *** brobostigon has quit IRC[02:35:19] *** adri has quit IRC[02:35:27] *** js has quit IRC[02:36:28] *** adri has joined #haiku[02:40:32] *** Anarchos has quit IRC[02:40:55] *** unheeding has quit IRC[02:41:15] *** brobostigon has joined #haiku[02:42:34] *** js has joined #haiku[03:00:05] *** andrewbachmann has joined #haiku[03:00:27] <andrewbachmann> hamishm ere?[03:01:12] <hamishm> yep I'm here[03:01:30] <andrewbachmann> hey, I'm building java right now according to your instructions[03:01:34] <andrewbachmann> pretty cool[03:01:40] <andrewbachmann> how's it going?[03:02:02] <hamishm> pretty good thanks[03:02:08] <hamishm> so the build is going OK?[03:02:15] <andrewbachmann> yeah, it's sailing along[03:02:19] <andrewbachmann> about 30minutes in now[03:02:31] <andrewbachmann> just got to some c++ compiling[03:02:37] <hamishm> ah[03:02:40] <hamishm> guess that's hotspot?[03:02:51] <hamishm> that can take a while[03:03:00] <andrewbachmann> looks like jdk actually... I probably missed hotspot when I went to get a drink :-D[03:03:22] <hamishm> ah[03:03:32] <andrewbachmann> this machine is a pretty good one[03:03:37] <andrewbachmann> how long does your build usually take[03:03:54] <hamishm> for a full build 1hr 30 or so[03:04:03] <hamishm> but I build in a vm...[03:04:07] <CIA-63> HaikuPorts: augiedoggie * r2016 /haikuports/trunk/haiku-apps/beam/beam-1.2alpha.bep http://ports.haiku-files.org/changeset/2016 : Adjust beam-1.2alpha.bep to produce packages similar to the current optional package[03:04:11] <hamishm> are you on bare metal?[03:04:15] <andrewbachmann> indeed I am[03:04:32] <hamishm> nice[03:04:36] <andrewbachmann> just installed on a spare partition from the nightly raw burned onto a DVD[03:04:50] <andrewbachmann> unfortunately my wifi is not recognized so I had to wire up[03:05:11] <hamishm> cool[03:05:15] <andrewbachmann> but I have no complaints, things have been very smooth[03:05:16] <hamishm> I've never run on bare metal myself[03:05:21] <hamishm> no spare hard drive space to speak of[03:05:43] <andrewbachmann> well I'm 35 minutes in now and compiling the swing plaf[03:06:02] <hamishm> Oh. I made a change recently that requires you to import a couple of headers into the build tree[03:06:04] <andrewbachmann> 1.5 hours is not so bad, I used to take 8 hours to build back in the day :-D[03:06:23] <hamishm> some licensing restrictions mean they can't be included directly[03:06:34] <hamishm> how new is the rev you're building from?[03:06:38] <andrewbachmann> ok, it's "finished" SoundConsuler.h[03:06:46] <andrewbachmann> that'd be the header you were talking about[03:06:51] <andrewbachmann> I've been following along[03:06:59] <hamishm> ah okay[03:07:00] <andrewbachmann> this is a nightly build from 2 days ago I think?[03:07:06] <andrewbachmann> but still missing that header[03:07:32] <hamishm> yeah the header isn't included in the haiku build, it's private[03:07:36] *** Megaf has quit IRC[03:07:53] <andrewbachmann> I saw the discussion, I'll grab it[03:08:08] <hamishm> you also need SoundUtils.h[03:08:26] <hamishm> both are here: http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/tree/headers/private/media[03:09:10] <andrewbachmann> I'm here with scott mccreary and he is going to add some of the openjdk required to haiku optional packages[03:09:26] <andrewbachmann> should make starting a new build easier:-)[03:09:41] <hamishm> oh, cool[03:10:33] <hamishm> I'm not sure of the best way to deploy the jdk on Haiku[03:10:58] <andrewbachmann> he wants to make all of openjdk into an optional package so that will be part of the question[03:11:12] <hamishm> yep[03:11:23] <andrewbachmann> any thoughts on it ?[03:11:39] <hamishm> on linux they manage somehow to put the binaries in /usr/bin or whatever[03:11:43] <andrewbachmann> presumably we should separate JRE from JDK as a basic first step[03:11:50] <hamishm> but here moving the binaries out of the j2sdk-image directory structure breaks them...[03:12:11] <andrewbachmann> probably JDK could go into /boot/develop/tools[03:12:24] <hamishm> yeah you'll find the build produces j2sdk-image and j2re-image[03:12:48] <hamishm> which contain all the right files ready for distribution[03:13:53] <andrewbachmann> I note that python and perl are in /boot/common/bin[03:14:06] <andrewbachmann> that may be a reasonable place to install the JRE[03:14:11] <andrewbachmann> {/boot/common}[03:14:38] <hamishm> yep I think /boot/develop/tools is for the preinstalled dev tools[03:14:43] <hamishm> gcc and so on[03:15:28] *** kcj has quit IRC[03:24:39] <andrewbachmann> have you tried doing a parallel build[03:27:32] *** ddavid123 has joined #haiku[03:28:32] <andrewbachmann> say, where do you recommend putting those SoundConsumer.h and SoundUtils.h headers[03:29:59] <hamishm> anywhere on the include path, maybe /boot/develop/headers/os/media?[03:30:15] <hamishm> I run with one cpu in virtualbox so a parallel build might not help[03:30:28] <hamishm> when I enable more than one I get kdl's all over the place[03:31:50] <andrewbachmann> hmm I have four CPUs recognized in haiku and it seems good[03:32:08] <andrewbachmann> when I finish this build I'll try another multithreaded >:-D[03:32:48] <andrewbachmann> jaxws now[03:33:02] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[03:33:31] <andrewbachmann> ok bbiab[03:43:33] <andrewbachmann> hmm my build got stopped again, this time related to rmic[03:43:47] <andrewbachmann> "Connot instantiate class sun.rmi.rmic.iiop.StubGenerator"[03:44:04] <andrewbachmann> any tips hamishm?[03:48:20] <hamishm> it's not an error I've encountered before[03:48:29] <hamishm> can you pastebin some more of the build log up to that point?[03:50:09] <andrewbachmann> http://pastebin.com/wQW21rGM[03:51:20] *** Nozy has joined #haiku[03:52:13] <andrewbachmann> btw I'm using the july jdk for bootstrap if you think that matters[03:53:16] *** Skipp_OSX has quit IRC[03:55:45] <hamishm> hmm I've never done a build with the july jdk[03:56:04] <hamishm> but I don't see why it would be a problem -- I've not gone anywhere near those classes[03:58:20] *** Nozy has quit IRC[03:58:37] *** Nozy has joined #haiku[03:58:47] <hamishm> once or twice I've had a cryptic build error that just went away when I retried the build[03:59:11] <andrewbachmann> yeah I just redid it and got the same again[04:00:01] <hamishm> okay. here's an older build which I use as my bootstrap jdk:[04:00:03] <hamishm> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/61946213/j2sdk-haiku.tar.xz[04:00:16] <andrewbachmann> I think I have that one already...[04:00:32] <andrewbachmann> also, I just restarted the build from jdk/make/com/sun and it appeared to succeed.....[04:02:02] <andrewbachmann> hmm I'll try switching to your other build[04:02:11] <andrewbachmann> I got another failure[04:02:37] *** ddavid123 has quit IRC[04:02:43] <hamishm> okay[04:02:57] *** Negr0_VoP2P has quit IRC[04:03:04] <andrewbachmann> http://pastebin.com/05eCnADd FYI[04:03:38] <hamishm> where's the error there?[04:04:02] <hamishm> the 'unchecked or unsafe operations' is just a warning btw[04:04:04] <andrewbachmann> hmm maybe it's just a warning :-D[04:04:09] <andrewbachmann> nm then[04:09:17] <andrewbachmann> I'm running make from jdk/make now and things seem to be moving along fine[04:09:44] <andrewbachmann> (still with the july build)[04:10:40] <andrewbachmann> ok it finished that successfully[04:12:58] <hamishm> okay, there should be a j2sdk-image directory with the finished product[04:13:32] <andrewbachmann> not just yet[04:13:58] <andrewbachmann> I'm running make from the top level again, and if that doesn't work I will try make images in the jdk/make[04:16:33] <hamishm> oh ok[04:28:02] <andrewbachmann> here's anoyther weird one: Unrecognized option: tem/lib[04:28:56] <andrewbachmann> just a flake I think :-([04:29:30] <andrewbachmann> I see some page vaults in the systelog[04:30:03] <hamishm> a flake?[04:30:15] <andrewbachmann> I ran the command again and it worked[04:30:30] <hamishm> ah[04:30:34] <andrewbachmann> KERN: vm_page_fault: thread "pthread func" (292960) in team "java" (292955) tried to write address 0x127500, ip 0x5487d9 ("libjvm.so_seg0ro" +0x21f7d9)[04:30:40] <andrewbachmann> a whole lot of those in the log[04:32:58] <hamishm> is there some other error there too?[04:33:10] <andrewbachmann> KERN: vm_page_fault: vm_soft_fault returned error 'Bad address' on fault at 0x10, ip 0x2865a62, write 0, user 1, thread 0x486b2[04:33:15] <andrewbachmann> KERN: vm_page_fault: thread "pthread func" (296626) in team "java" (296610) tried to read address 0x10, ip 0x2865a62 ("mmap area" +0x72a62)[04:33:25] <andrewbachmann> KERN: bfs: bfs_open_dir:1615: Not a directory[04:33:31] <andrewbachmann> last message repeated 13680(!) times[04:33:36] <hamishm> hmm okay...[04:33:57] <hamishm> well it's possible that's not bad behaviour[04:34:05] <andrewbachmann> also it seems to be dumping a bunch of hexadecimal sometimes[04:34:13] <andrewbachmann> 82. A7 B2 C4 D1 E8 F5 G3 H6[04:34:13] <andrewbachmann> 83. A7 B2 C6 D3 E1 F4 G8 H5[04:34:14] <andrewbachmann> 84. A7 B3 C1 D6 E8 F5 G2 H4[04:34:14] <andrewbachmann> 85. A7 B3 C8 D2 E5 F1 G6 H4[04:34:17] <andrewbachmann> like that[04:34:30] <hamishm> hotspot designates some invalid memory address its java null reference[04:34:46] <hamishm> and catches the sigsegv to deal with null pointer exceptions[04:34:53] <andrewbachmann> right[04:35:18] <hamishm> aha[04:35:37] <hamishm> that code is running from an mmapped area[04:35:49] <hamishm> which means it must be JIT...[04:36:05] *** OmniMancer has joined #haiku[04:36:18] <hamishm> I haven't tested JIT compiler all that much[04:36:56] *** OmniMancer has quit IRC[04:38:20] <hamishm> hmm I don't think that output is hex, it looks like the output from the hotspot test app 'gamma'[04:38:23] *** sambagirl has quit IRC[04:38:54] <hamishm> if it just finished the hotspot build that's normal[04:39:14] <andrewbachmann> could be I guess, I noticed it came out about when the system log was hit[04:39:39] <andrewbachmann> if you want to make sure it's doing the right thing, maybe gamma thing to watch[04:42:05] <andrewbachmann> build finished![04:42:47] <hamishm> awesome[04:43:15] <andrewbachmann> I'm going to save the build and retry it with parallel build just for kicks[04:43:26] <andrewbachmann> then perhaps I will try building with what I just built as well for comparison[04:44:16] <hamishm> ok[04:44:23] <hamishm> also you'll want to add the cacerts file to your new build[04:44:34] <hamishm> otherwise it'll fail on any ssl connections[04:44:39] <andrewbachmann> oic[04:44:56] <andrewbachmann> your july build had the cacerts file you referred to[04:45:01] <andrewbachmann> in your pastebin instructions[04:45:47] <hamishm> yeah it did[04:46:09] <hamishm> I think linux distros have there own ways of generating the cacerts file from there own trusted certificates[04:46:42] <hamishm> the cacerts file I added I just copied from the windows build as a stop gap solution[04:46:54] <andrewbachmann> I see[04:49:58] <andrewbachmann> interestingly make clean generates a bunch of those vm faults :-D[04:51:19] <andrewbachmann> trying make -j 5 now[04:54:22] <andrewbachmann> heh, it just quite the build "Error 2", not quite clear what failed though.....[04:59:16] <hamishm> maybe the error occurs further up?[04:59:22] <hamishm> additional jobs could have been fired off in between[04:59:38] <andrewbachmann> yeah I scrolled up a bit but nothing jumped out[05:00:58] <hamishm> well if multiple jobs means multiple javac compilations at the same time then that might be the problem[05:01:28] <hamishm> we don't use overcommitting on haiku and hotspot likes to reserve some pretty big areas for its heap[05:02:22] <andrewbachmann> yeah, I could be running into some 4GB+ RAM bugs :-D[05:02:27] <andrewbachmann> since I have 6GB on here[05:02:53] <andrewbachmann> I got this:[05:02:54] <andrewbachmann> # Note: -jN is ineffective for setting parallelism in this makefile.[05:02:54] <andrewbachmann> # please set HOTSPOT_BUILD_JOBS=4 in the command line or environment.[05:02:59] <andrewbachmann> in one message[05:03:08] <andrewbachmann> perhaps I should try it[05:03:59] <hamishm> ah[05:04:23] *** JonathanThompson has joined #haiku[05:04:25] <hamishm> I think haiku should be OK with more than 4GB of ram[05:04:37] <andrewbachmann> it seems pretty good[05:04:47] <hamishm> PAE means that more than 4GB of physical memory can be accessed[05:05:06] <hamishm> though processes only get the 4GB of virtual address space[05:07:06] *** sambagirl has joined #haiku[05:07:45] <andrewbachmann> I set HOTSPOT_BUILD_JOBS=10 and it is rocking[05:08:00] <andrewbachmann> pretty much full use on the CPUs[05:08:23] <hamishm> nice[05:08:31] <hamishm> the hotspot build is one of the longest parts...[05:08:38] <hamishm> especially since it compiles everything twice for client/server vms[05:08:57] <andrewbachmann> yeah when I built for 8 hours in the past that was just one of those variants (!!)[05:09:05] <andrewbachmann> of course, that was a pentium 90 :-D[05:09:26] <andrewbachmann> and java 1.4 was probably simpler I guess....[05:10:02] <hamishm> heh[05:10:51] <hamishm> yeah... wasn't the vm and the class library functionality more interlinked back then?[05:11:09] <andrewbachmann> I haven't really done a comparison[05:11:24] <andrewbachmann> it's hard to find time to do this stuff now with wife+kids[05:11:40] <hamishm> yeah fair enough[05:11:59] <andrewbachmann> anyway, I pass the torch to you ha ha ha[05:12:05] <hamishm> :D[05:21:17] *** qptain_Nemo has quit IRC[05:21:38] <andrewbachmann> I'm out of hotspot[05:21:44] <andrewbachmann> elapsed: 15min![05:22:35] <andrewbachmann> cpu utilitization is a lot lower now that we're in java land[05:22:49] <andrewbachmann> at about 30%[05:26:45] <hamishm> 15 minutes is great... takes 50 here[05:28:08] <stpere> heh.. must really suck to abort midway because you realise a mistake :P[05:28:09] <hamishm> I don't think javac is multi-threaded so it won't be quite that fast[05:28:35] <andrewbachmann> ok javac bailed on me[05:28:47] <andrewbachmann> couldn't find org.omg.CORBA package... I'll try again[05:29:36] <Disreali> man, gnome-shell is a resource hog[05:29:47] <andrewbachmann> disreali hey[05:30:02] <Disreali> I can't wait until I can boot haiku again[05:30:27] <andrewbachmann> it's looking might fierce here[05:30:46] <hamishm> stpere: normally I set the restart the build and try to correct the mistake before it gets to that part :P[05:31:04] <stpere> hehehehe![05:31:11] <hamishm> which provides pretty good motivation to fix it in a timely manner..[05:31:23] <Disreali> sorry andrewbachmann, but it is using 70-85% of the cpu on pinguy. It actually interferes with video play back[05:31:59] <andrewbachmann> pinguy?[05:32:10] <Disreali> ubuntu variant[05:32:24] <andrewbachmann> oic[05:32:46] <Disreali> actually, it looks to based on mint[05:32:50] <andrewbachmann> I might haiku looking mighty fierce :-D[05:32:56] <andrewbachmann> er, meant[05:34:18] <Disreali> yea, I was only using Haiku for months until it started crashing after about 30-90 minutes[05:36:19] <jessicah> haiku's audio is extremely glitchy on my eeebox[05:36:51] <jessicah> and all my files are on ntfs, which seems to have an extremely buggy driver[05:37:20] <jessicah> on a faster computer, everything seems okay[05:37:32] <Disreali> Jessicah: I have similar issues on my acer. I have to restart media services multiple times before sound works[05:39:12] *** kcj has joined #haiku[05:42:30] <stpere> night[05:42:38] *** stpere has quit IRC[05:49:46] <jessicah> Disreali: restarting media services doesn't work for me[05:49:54] <jessicah> it's just constantly glitchy[05:51:01] <Disreali> what media chip does it use?\[05:53:09] *** Skipp_OSX has joined #haiku[05:53:49] <Disreali> wb Skipp_OSX[05:55:26] <andrewbachmann> hamishm do you have the link to the july 2 build[05:56:03] *** OmniMancer has joined #haiku[05:56:22] <hamishm> this one? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/61946213/j2sdk-july-r2.tar.xz[05:56:36] <andrewbachmann> yeah, thanks[05:56:45] <hamishm> np[05:57:56] <hamishm> I'm off now. drop me an email if something comes up[06:02:15] <andrewbachmann> ok cya[06:02:56] <andrewbachmann> btw I had to change ant to build without junit FYI[06:05:26] *** jessicah` has joined #haiku[06:05:58] <jessicah`> hmm, i was wrong. audio is fine[06:06:20] <jessicah`> it was only when i messed with input/output sampling rate that it got all messed up[06:09:25] *** jessicah` has quit IRC[06:12:16] *** jayrulez has quit IRC[06:13:19] *** MatthewH12 has quit IRC[06:14:43] *** Disreali has quit IRC[06:23:37] <CIA-63> haiku.master: nielx * hrev44517 http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/commit/?id=2e4a953 : Update translations from Pootle[06:47:46] *** Nozy has left #haiku[07:04:17] *** JonathanThompson has quit IRC[07:04:54] *** andrewbachmann has quit IRC[07:24:33] *** sambagirl has quit IRC[07:33:40] *** [r4] has joined #haiku[07:38:11] *** sambagirl has joined #haiku[07:41:37] *** stargater has joined #haiku[07:42:25] <stargater> moin[07:44:56] <jessicah> hihi stargater[08:13:05] *** Nozy has joined #haiku[08:14:29] <jstressman> jessicah: the BeOS build of Quake2 seems to have the same audio problems that that BePacDeluxe or whatever had...[08:14:39] *** bbjimmy has joined #haiku[08:14:41] <jstressman> there's definitely something still wrong with audio on Haiku as compared to Be.[08:14:49] <jessicah> oh?[08:15:01] <jessicah> what error did you get with the quake2?[08:15:14] <jessicah> bepacdeluxe was like 'file not found' type error[08:15:19] <jessicah> though it existed[08:18:11] <jstressman> well, when you try to play the files from BePac in MediaPlayer...[08:18:14] <jstressman> they just make noise.[08:18:32] *** dcase has joined #haiku[08:18:33] <jessicah> oh. yeah, i get that too[08:18:41] <jessicah> what kind of files are they?[08:18:41] <jstressman> same as quake2. the sounds at least play, but they sound the same... just really distorted static-like noise.[08:18:47] <jstressman> let me look.[08:19:08] <jessicah> bepacdeluxe were aiff[08:19:20] <jessicah> at least that was the extension[08:19:28] <jessicah> i didn't dig deeper[08:19:30] *** volci has quit IRC[08:19:39] <jessicah> and don't have here[08:20:00] <jstressman> they look like wav files in the pak file. :/[08:20:10] <jstressman> yeah, I remember the aiff ones.[08:23:20] *** humdinger has joined #haiku[08:23:22] <jstressman> extracting them now to play directly in MediaPlayer.[08:23:23] <jessicah> can you upload one of the problematic wave files?[08:23:39] <jstressman> yeah. just confirming.[08:24:30] <jessicah> i'd really like to be able to play bepacdeluxe again...[08:25:01] <jessicah> now that i've realised you can use process controller to break into debugger for any team, i should have better luck :)[08:25:12] <jstressman> they all play fine in MediaPlayer.[08:25:27] <jessicah> weird[08:25:28] <jstressman> must just be a problem translating between the old Be binary and Haiku's sound stuff :/[08:25:45] <jessicah> maybe[08:26:08] <jessicah> bepacdeluxe's ones didn't play correctly in mediaplayer[08:26:15] <jstressman> right. I tested those too.[08:26:28] <jstressman> I gave up testing it when I was lacking the fonts...[08:26:28] <jessicah> oh you got them handy?[08:26:39] <jessicah> oh, i got those somewhere[08:26:41] <jstressman> and I couldn't figure out how to get the fonts out of my beosr5 image. :P[08:26:46] <jstressman> because the networking on it doesn't work.[08:26:52] <jessicah> just mount it in haiku[08:26:59] <jstressman> oh brilliant[08:27:06] * jstressman *smacks forehead*[08:27:28] <jstressman> and that is why I'll never be a real programmer. ;) haha[08:27:36] <jessicah> :p[08:27:37] <jstressman> I have a brain like swiss cheese.[08:28:59] <jessicah> not real programmers are helpful too. they see things programmers don't see :)[08:30:45] <jstressman> :D[08:30:56] <jstressman> I was trying to compile Quake2 last night, but failed miserably :)[08:31:04] <jstressman> all the code relies on sys/shm.h[08:31:23] <jstressman> so I'd have to figure out how to change all that to use mmap or something... the memory stuff available through the BeAPI.[08:31:58] <jstressman> but since I only just started the stack/heap lesson from Darkwyrm's Learning to Program on Haiku guides... that's currently voodoo magic to me. :P[08:32:03] <jessicah> ah. i haven't dealt with using mmap or shared memory at all before[08:32:44] <jessicah> haven't done a lot of C-level programming despite writing a kernel-esque thing[08:33:18] <jessicah> though it's really quite a stretch to call it a kernel/os[08:35:31] <jessicah> =/[08:35:57] <jessicah> i can't decide on a clean way to fix SoundConsumer.cpp[08:36:22] <jessicah> the debugging macros break in a release build[08:44:21] *** dcase has quit IRC[08:50:45] <jessicah> hmm, i'm sure i saw a page on best practice for formatting commit messages, but i can't for the life of me find it anywhere >_<[08:51:15] <stargater> hi jstressman jessicah[08:52:38] <jstressman> stargater: moin :)[08:53:30] <jstressman> brb. going to hop in the shower for awhile to escape from life. ^_^[08:53:59] <jessicah> :)[08:55:03] *** luroh has quit IRC[08:55:07] *** johnny_b has joined #haiku[08:56:10] *** Skipp_OSX has quit IRC[08:56:21] *** _marc` has quit IRC[09:06:41] *** vooshy has joined #haiku[09:07:42] *** Skipp_OSX has joined #haiku[09:09:56] *** PulkoMandy has joined #haiku[09:21:52] *** notconvinced has joined #haiku[09:27:22] <jstressman> much better.[09:28:48] <jessicah> :)[09:38:01] *** lollo64it has quit IRC[09:42:20] <stargater> http://www.apfelzone.at/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/OS-X-Mountain-Lion-Wallpaper.jpg[09:43:23] <jstressman> nice wallpaper.[09:44:17] *** lollo64it has joined #haiku[09:45:24] *** lollo64it has quit IRC[09:46:22] *** lollo64it has joined #haiku[09:49:20] *** humdinger has quit IRC[09:49:37] <CIA-63> haiku.master: humdinger * hrev44518 http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/commit/?id=e8eb40f : Harmonized translator titles in DataTranslations.[09:53:23] *** Blub\w has joined #haiku[10:06:30] <stargater> http://www.bebox.nu/images/bebox/prototype/redblue/BeBox-blue+red.jpg[10:09:20] *** tqh has joined #haiku[10:14:26] <stargater> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lucbyhet/3443072682/[10:22:12] <stargater> my first love http://www.classiccomputer.de/ams/cpc6128.jpg[10:23:18] *** jstressman has quit IRC[10:23:24] <jessicah> :o[10:23:32] <jessicah> you must be old, stargater :p[10:25:24] *** jjido has joined #haiku[10:28:41] *** negusnyul has joined #haiku[10:31:01] *** idefix_gromit has joined #haiku[10:34:30] *** rdmr has joined #haiku[10:37:57] <stargater> jessicah: 38J[10:38:08] <stargater> wow i like this case http://technabob.com/blog/2008/01/15/computer-cases-get-faces/[10:39:33] <PulkoMandy> mh[10:39:42] * PulkoMandy is working on an Amstrad CPC emulator for Haiku :)[10:43:32] *** Ingenu has joined #haiku[10:50:39] <swarfega> how about a zx spectrum emulator?[10:52:10] <PulkoMandy> I think there are some good ones already ?[10:52:37] *** [r4] has quit IRC[10:53:03] <PulkoMandy> I see Beccy, BeZX, and Fuse on Haikuware[10:53:10] <PulkoMandy> I don't know how up to date they are[10:53:19] <PulkoMandy> but compiling a newer version of Fuse shouldn't be a problem[10:53:21] *** [r4] has joined #haiku[10:55:14] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.[10:55:26] <jessicah> good morning :)[10:55:48] <brobostigon> good morning jessicah :)[10:57:43] <PulkoMandy> :)[10:58:01] <brobostigon> :)[10:58:51] <jjido> did anyone evaluate FreeGLUT?[11:00:26] <PulkoMandy> I was looking into it[11:00:39] *** DrHouse|TARDIS_ has joined #haiku[11:00:51] <PulkoMandy> Haiku comes with the original Glut bundled inside libGL[11:01:02] *** jjido has quit IRC[11:01:16] <PulkoMandy> mh...[11:03:36] *** PulkoMandy has quit IRC[11:03:46] *** Postumus has joined #haiku[11:04:27] *** DrHouse|TARDIS_ has left #haiku[11:08:47] *** PulkoMandy has joined #haiku[11:16:47] *** idefix_gromit has left #haiku[11:19:27] *** DrHouse|TARDIS has quit IRC[11:26:36] *** idefix_gromit has joined #haiku[11:29:08] *** vooshy has quit IRC[11:31:39] *** idefix_gromit has left #haiku[11:36:47] *** HaikuUser has joined #haiku[11:40:13] *** vooshy has joined #haiku[11:46:48] *** Blub\w has quit IRC[11:47:44] <vooshy> is there a command line to change keymap in haiku, or just the gui?[11:49:46] *** negusnyul has quit IRC[11:49:58] *** stargater has quit IRC[11:50:29] *** Postumus has quit IRC[11:59:34] *** jjido has joined #haiku[12:01:39] *** jjido_ has joined #haiku[12:01:44] *** jjido has quit IRC[12:04:20] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[12:05:53] *** jjido_ has quit IRC[12:06:11] *** jjido has joined #haiku[12:09:04] *** Skipp_OSX has quit IRC[12:23:04] *** stargater has joined #haiku[12:24:40] *** jjido has quit IRC[12:39:44] *** rdmr has quit IRC[12:40:22] *** tqh has quit IRC[12:42:20] *** tqh has joined #haiku[12:42:24] *** rdmr has joined #haiku[12:44:56] *** tqh has quit IRC[12:45:34] *** PasNox has joined #haiku[12:58:24] *** bigbluehat has quit IRC[13:16:42] *** stargater has quit IRC[13:21:01] *** rdmr has quit IRC[13:22:58] *** rdmr has joined #haiku[13:30:56] *** rdmr has quit IRC[13:32:14] *** rdmr has joined #haiku[13:32:33] *** leszek has joined #haiku[13:32:53] <leszek> hi[13:35:15] *** jjido has joined #haiku[13:38:01] *** rdmr has quit IRC[13:38:51] <vooshy> leszek: hi[13:39:17] *** rdmr has joined #haiku[13:39:43] *** jjido has quit IRC[13:41:09] *** Negr0_VoP2P has joined #haiku[13:43:57] <CIA-63> haiku.master: xyzzy * hrev44519 http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/commit/?id=15ed6a1 :[13:43:58] <CIA-63> CID 609387: Uninitialized pointer access.[13:43:58] <CIA-63> Fixes a crash I just ran into on x86_64, only appeared when I built[13:43:58] <CIA-63> with optimization disabled.[13:44:47] *** mattlacey has joined #haiku[13:47:39] *** bigbluehat has joined #haiku[14:06:46] *** alexandros_c has quit IRC[14:27:29] *** mattlacey has left #haiku[14:35:38] *** negusnyul has joined #haiku[14:35:58] *** Beretta021 has quit IRC[14:39:52] *** idefix_gromit has joined #haiku[14:45:15] *** diver has quit IRC[14:45:39] *** diver has joined #haiku[14:47:24] *** idefix_gromit has left #haiku[14:50:02] *** Beretta021 has joined #haiku[14:51:02] *** idefix_gromit has joined #haiku[14:52:10] *** alexandros_c has joined #haiku[14:57:30] *** Megaf has joined #haiku[15:00:27] *** volci has joined #haiku[15:01:07] <Megaf> Good morning, Bom dia, Buenos dias, Bonjour, Buongiorno, G'day.[15:16:11] <arfonzo> Hola[15:19:59] *** Blub\w has joined #haiku[15:20:31] <jessicah> nihao[15:22:10] *** OmniMancer has quit IRC[15:22:40] *** OmniMancer has joined #haiku[15:23:33] *** kcj has quit IRC[15:27:07] *** OmniMancer has quit IRC[15:30:13] *** tqh has joined #haiku[15:36:29] *** idefix_xifedi has joined #haiku[15:43:43] *** idefix_gromit has left #haiku[15:45:39] *** idefix_gromit has joined #haiku[15:46:36] *** qptain_Nemo has joined #haiku[16:11:30] *** rdmr has quit IRC[16:16:15] *** Ingenu_ has joined #haiku[16:19:30] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[16:21:05] *** tqh has quit IRC[16:22:03] *** vooshy has quit IRC[16:24:11] *** Skipp_OSX has joined #haiku[16:26:04] *** MatthewH12 has joined #haiku[16:35:56] *** BitPuffin has joined #haiku[16:40:19] *** diver has quit IRC[16:41:37] *** Postumus has joined #haiku[16:42:22] <CIA-63> haiku.master: leavengood * hrev44520 http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/commit/?id=1a59d9d :[16:42:22] <CIA-63> Improve Deskbar's WindowShouldBeListed utility function. [2 commits][16:42:22] <CIA-63> It now has all the knowledge about whether a window should be shown or not.[16:42:22] <CIA-63> Since I fixed #4127, ORing with is_mini is no longer needed.[16:45:06] <Skipp_OSX> suck it is_mini[16:51:41] *** idefix_gromit has left #haiku[16:53:50] *** idefix_gromit has joined #haiku[16:54:57] *** sarcas has joined #haiku[16:55:53] *** Negr0_VoP2P has quit IRC[17:01:14] *** nyl has joined #haiku[17:01:14] *** diver has joined #haiku[17:14:36] *** Beretta021 has quit IRC[17:20:11] *** rdmr has joined #haiku[17:25:33] <notconvinced> not so funny meow, is it?[17:27:19] <Skipp_OSX> good one Farva[17:27:58] <notconvinced> ;)[17:28:08] <notconvinced> I can't decide what to do with this VM.[17:28:12] <notconvinced> if anything.[17:29:34] <CIA-63> HaikuPorts: pulkomandy * r2017 /haikuports/trunk/dev-lang/lua/ (lua-5.2.1.bep patches/lua-5.2.1.patch) http://ports.haiku-files.org/changeset/2017 :[17:29:34] <CIA-63> Add lua 5.2.1.[17:29:34] <CIA-63> * Straight port of the 5.1 patches[17:29:34] <CIA-63> * pkg-config support removed from lua 5.2, so remove it from dependencies and don't try to copy the pc file.[17:31:57] *** leszek has quit IRC[17:35:56] *** bob_ok has joined #haiku[17:37:23] <Skipp_OSX> notconvinced, I don't understand, why vm?[17:37:27] <Skipp_OSX> what vm?[17:39:00] <notconvinced> the haiku vm that I'm using to chat with you[17:42:34] *** tqh has joined #haiku[17:45:53] <Skipp_OSX> oh well, I guess you figured out one thing to do with it then[17:46:19] <PulkoMandy> drop the vm, install haiku directly on your computer ? :)[17:51:29] *** tqh has quit IRC[17:55:42] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[17:57:24] *** jjido has joined #haiku[17:57:39] *** stargater has joined #haiku[17:57:48] <stargater> hi[18:02:14] *** idefix_xifedi has left #haiku[18:04:00] <Skipp_OSX> hello[18:06:10] <bob_ok> So I guess no one is unfortunate enough to be forced using PPPoE by the internet provider :)[18:07:04] <diver> bob_ok: use adsl router :-)[18:07:05] <bob_ok> It was a pretty big problem for me with Haiku, but now I'm thinking getting some wifi + router anyway, so I can use Haiku at home too[18:07:18] <bob_ok> diver: that's the answer, Diver ;)[18:07:19] <diver> yup[18:09:21] <bob_ok> i'm just curious was it the thing bigger than the wifi to implement or there was no poor baggers to annoy the devs with such request[18:09:55] <bob_ok> diver: btw can you advise some router model that works well?[18:11:42] <PulkoMandy> PPPoE was on the todo list for quite some time[18:11:54] <PulkoMandy> then more and more people got DSL routers[18:11:59] <PulkoMandy> and it fell off the list[18:13:00] <diver> I think any current router will do[18:13:04] <bob_ok> yea I was reading the archives of haiku mailing list the other day, there was some nasty lib that need to be ported or something.[18:14:18] <bob_ok> still a nice feature to have in a full mature networking stack, though. but I suppose the finalized GUI for wifi settings is the priority[18:14:45] *** rdmr has quit IRC[18:15:30] <bob_ok> diver: yeah, but there's so many of them, I'm afraid to pick the "naughty" one lol[18:16:54] <diver> maybe your ISP suggest some[18:17:59] *** rdmr has joined #haiku[18:18:41] <bob_ok> diver: I'm afraid the only thing my ISP would suggest to me is to get the fff off tech support line, haha. anyway gonna get one tomorrow, maybe i'll be lucky that day[18:19:45] <Skipp_OSX> I'm sure it could be fairly easily implemented by someone sufficiently motivated[18:27:55] *** sarcas has quit IRC[18:29:09] <bob_ok> Other than that my lil box i built for Haiku is great to test some nighties, then hopefully to use it full time and update to new versions when R1 with package manager / updater arrives. Also, some zotac and a few other little powerboxes are great as unnoficial "HaikuBox" machines. Couple of friends couldn't get over how darn fast Haiku works on these tiny things. And I'm taking ported Qt apps, not even native ones. I think there's not[18:29:09] <bob_ok> much than 2Gb of RAM in the old ones, at most. That's why these things don't crave x64 version that much.[18:29:19] *** happy4crazy has joined #haiku[18:30:16] <PulkoMandy> the 64bit version of Haiku is coming soon anyway[18:30:49] <bob_ok> by the way congratulations to Alex and anyone involved in x86-64 port, when I saw a screenshot of Deskbar and Tracker running on x64 port, I just... well... fell in love with it all over again ;)[18:34:06] <bob_ok> I'm sure there's more to x64 implementation than just having access to 4+ gigs of RAM in Haiku. Nice to see some other guys reacting to the Haiku x64 news, though. "Hey, this thing is actually alive, huh"... Yep, bro, it's alive.[18:34:16] <Skipp_OSX> yes, Alex has done quite a bit in a short amount of time[18:34:31] <bob_ok> though slashdot is being old fashioned as always, I saw no surprises there...[18:34:43] <Skipp_OSX> wait did we get slashdotted?[18:35:11] <bob_ok> it was about the new interview with Stephan[18:35:14] <bob_ok> let me find the link[18:36:25] <bob_ok> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/08/07/1315234/how-haiku-is-building-a-better-beos[18:36:27] *** letharion has quit IRC[18:38:50] <Skipp_OSX> there is is you're right[18:39:19] <bob_ok> Now I get why some folks pissed off with certain things in Haiku. I'd like to have windows to not overlay the deskbar (especially in the top and bottom positions, some aerosnap gestures I've used to I still miss, but I'm not a developer and at least i understand I should either donate or shut up[18:40:47] <Skipp_OSX> I thought about that, but, the only platform that I can think works like that is the menubar on OS X and that's not exactly the same thing[18:40:58] <Skipp_OSX> you can put windows over the Windows Taskbar for instance[18:44:41] *** AlienSoldier has joined #haiku[18:44:59] <bob_ok> I'm more gnome/xfce guy, so I like the panel being visible. every time i use auto-raise feature in Haiku I contain myself not to say "come on, don't be shyyyy" to Deskbar, lol. I'm sure such things will be optional in the preferences one day.[18:46:33] *** letharion has joined #haiku[18:49:50] *** DrHouse|TARDIS has joined #haiku[18:50:41] <bob_ok> by the way I'm amazed by the work that Hamish done in OpenJDK field. Now he's working with Jaudio, apparently. Even the screenshoots of java software on haiku-os.org forum look cool, even if those apps run slower than the native ones.[18:50:55] <CIA-63> haiku.master: leavengood * hrev44521 http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/commit/?id=315d8b6 : Rename RTF-Translator to RTFTranslator.[18:52:33] *** jstressman has joined #haiku[18:53:00] <bob_ok> doesn't even matter to me anymore, this machine has 8 gigs of ram, so when the complete x64 version and some java apps will be ready, there you go. Even with 4 gigs available that'd be a blast to use[18:53:20] <diver> bob_ok: in fact java apps run faster then on my linux box[18:53:50] <bob_ok> diver: that's nice to hear[18:54:10] *** jayrulez has joined #haiku[18:54:53] <bob_ok> I remember folks being unimpressed with how AGG lib performed on win32 platform, but on Haiku it's pretty robust, as far as I can see with no hardware acceleration whatsoever[18:55:44] <bob_ok> diver: well, at least it's some apps, even if the office suite isn't open and free[18:56:47] *** dcase has joined #haiku[18:57:16] <bob_ok> oops, qt-haiku is down, that's no good[18:57:27] <bob_ok> *qt-haiku.ru*[18:58:42] <diver> yep, their web site has been hacked a couple of month ago[18:59:22] *** idefix_gromit has left #haiku[19:05:37] <bob_ok> diver: where I can get the latest qt build then, or should i build it myself?[19:07:04] <Skipp_OSX> now I can't remember where I heard it, but, I like the idea of the clock and status tray to be to the left of the leaf when Deskbar is in the top right corner[19:08:03] <Skipp_OSX> that way if a window is maximized your clock and status tray are still visible[19:08:58] <diver> bob_ok: http://wiki.poorcoding.com/Haiku.arfonzo.ashx#Qt_EIA_0[19:12:48] <bob_ok> Skipp_OSX: or you can just have optional (just optional) feature to have maximized windows align the deskbar in every position it is placed. You could turn that off if you want it to be hidden and raise on a mouse-hover, no biggie[19:12:57] <bob_ok> diver: thx[19:12:59] *** AlienSoldier has quit IRC[19:14:54] <PulkoMandy> http://www.wz2100.net/[19:14:58] <HAIKU-Buildbot_> build #679 of x86-FreeBSD-host is complete: Failure [failed [x86gcc4] @alpha-anyboot [x86gcc4] @alpha-vmware [x86gcc4] @alpha-raw [x86gcc4] @alpha-cd [x86gcc4] @nightly-anyboot [x86gcc4] @nightly-vmware [x86gcc4] @nightly-raw [x86gcc4] @nightly-cd [x86gcc4hybrid] @alpha-anyboot [x86gcc4hybrid] @alpha-vmware [x86gcc4hybrid] @alpha-raw [x86gcc4hybrid] @alpha-cd[19:14:59] <HAIKU-Buildbot_> [x86gcc4hybrid] @nightly-anyboot [x86gcc4hybrid] @nightly-vmware [x86gcc4hybrid] @nightly-raw [x86gcc4hybrid] @nightly-cd] Build details are at http://mmadia.dyndns.org:8010/builders/x86-FreeBSD-host/builds/679 blamelist: Ryan Leavengood <leavengood at gmail dot com>[19:15:02] <PulkoMandy> anyone up for an Haiku port ? or was it already done ?[19:16:45] <jstressman> Skipp_OSX: I really really wish there was an option to maximize but not cover the deskbar.[19:17:19] <jstressman> (like how in windows if I maximize a window it doesn't cover the start button/taskbar/systemtray... so I can always see everything I need to see/access at a glance)[19:18:39] <jstressman> PulkoMandy: "Warzone 2100 is written in C++ and uses the SDL (input and graphics context), OpenGL (graphics), OpenAL (sound) and PhysicsFS (filesystem) libraries."[19:18:57] <jstressman> we kind of have all that except for PhysicsFS ?[19:19:03] <jstressman> I have no idea about that last one.[19:21:32] *** AlienSoldier has joined #haiku[19:21:33] <PulkoMandy> well, I guess it should compile easily as well ?[19:21:45] <jstressman> looks like it's partially ported already[19:21:56] <jstressman> I see comments on google about ifdefs for beos/haiku etc.[19:21:57] <Skipp_OSX> I'm having a lot of problems building jam on FreeBSD here...[19:22:02] <adamk> I wouldn't expect it to run well without 3D acceleration, though.[19:22:40] <Skipp_OSX> jstressman, you mean in horizontal mode?[19:23:26] *** AmineKhaldi is now known as dreimine[19:28:14] <PulkoMandy> adamk: well, it's a game from 1999, so I'd expect it to use not too advanced OpenGL ?[19:28:40] <adamk> Hmmm, never tried it. It's possible the software renderer is fast enough.[19:30:00] <PulkoMandy> depends on your computer, but I think it could be ok for some people[19:31:06] <bob_ok> jstressman: i was talking about such deskbar+apps setups like these: http://i.imgur.com/PEPe4.jpg http://i.imgur.com/8mESu.jpg not that big of a deal to be honest[19:32:07] *** letharion has quit IRC[19:32:13] *** BitPuffin has quit IRC[19:32:27] *** stargater has quit IRC[19:32:57] <bob_ok> I mostly use widescreen displays now anyway, so the "sidebar" placement of Deskbar is very appropriate, at least for my tastes[19:39:27] <jstressman> bob_ok: that's what I mean. :) (like your previews)[19:40:13] <jstressman> Skipp_OSX: I mean in any mode. I want to be able to easily have windows "maximize" to use all the available space without covering my deskbar so that I can still easily switch apps.[19:40:29] *** letharion has joined #haiku[19:40:31] *** AlienSoldier has quit IRC[19:40:56] <jstressman> I'm not going to go into another rant here about the usability shortfalls of making your primary graphical task switcher very inefficient to use, easy to obscure, etc. ;)[19:41:00] <bob_ok> as for some window snapping features, I used cool windows app called AquaSnap (http://www.nurgo-software.com/products/aquasnap) It lets application windows to be sticked in all sorts of places.[19:41:27] <Skipp_OSX> hmmm, well, that just isn't how zooming works...[19:41:28] <bob_ok> getting something like that work on Gnome is still pain in the butt, maybe KDE guys did something similar idn[19:41:54] <Skipp_OSX> now perhaps you could ask the Tracker Kit where Deskbar is right now, and zoom appropriately[19:41:57] <jstressman> Skipp_OSX: what can I say? I although think zooming is almost useless. ;)[19:42:32] <jstressman> "oh look, here's a button that does something different for every app! it's a mystery! oh fun! click it and figure out what happens on THIS app!"[19:42:51] *** AlienSoldier has joined #haiku[19:44:44] <jstressman> I think I can count the times on my fingers that I've EVER used the zoom button.[19:45:13] <jstressman> because it's either almost never ever what I actually want to do, or I just don't feel like clicking it and having some mystery action happen. so I just resize the window manually to what I actually want.[19:45:41] <jstressman> I almost always want to resize the contents of the window to the size of the window. NOT vice versa.[19:46:07] <jstressman> so I set the window size and then use "arrange by name" because that's as close as I can get to a pleasant visual layout for icon mode.[19:46:21] <jstressman> since there's no default grid snapping or auto-arrange etc.[19:47:13] <PulkoMandy> that's not how Haiku works[19:48:16] <jstressman> what can I say, I don't like how Haiku works at the moment. I think the deskbar needs a drastic overhaul for usability, and the tracker is stuck in an outdated paradigm that almost no modern desktop user likes or wants. :/[19:48:27] <Skipp_OSX> jstressman, if just Web+ worked that way, would that be enough?[19:48:45] <Skipp_OSX> focusing on zooming for now :)[19:48:46] <jstressman> one of my primary motivators for learning to program is to write a replacement desktop manager.[19:48:51] <PulkoMandy> it's not outdated, it's different and it is unexpected *for you*[19:49:08] <jstressman> why do you think everyone else abandoned spatial management years ago?[19:49:54] <PulkoMandy> small screens back then, and now we have big ones again[19:49:56] <jstressman> that everyone moved to a unified browser style of management with limited spatial qualities (like choosing which layout or attribute columns to use in a given folder)[19:50:16] <PulkoMandy> well, we already discussed this several times[19:50:16] <Skipp_OSX> now you realize that Tracker was written by Pavel Cisler who is the same guy who wrote Nautilus, and Cover flow in Finder and worked on Full screen mode in Lion right?[19:50:21] <jstressman> users didn't like having a bunch of windows popping up all over that they had no interest in. they were just moving through them.[19:50:23] <PulkoMandy> and my opinion doesn't change[19:50:34] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[19:50:37] <jstressman> nor do I think it's good usability to force users not to use the obvious desktop/folder paradigm[19:50:39] <PulkoMandy> whenever i use anything else than Haiku, I can't manage my windows efficiently[19:50:44] <jstressman> "use the menu navigation instead"[19:50:49] <PulkoMandy> and I tried lots of other ways[19:50:53] <jstressman> this has all been hashed over.[19:51:01] <jstressman> I'm not going over it again here because it's not going to change. :)[19:51:33] <Skipp_OSX> well, let's focus on zooming in Web+ because that has been discussed as lacking and indeed may change soon[19:51:44] <jstressman> I thought it already got changed?[19:51:58] <PulkoMandy> I understand that people are confused by the spatial mode because they are used to something else[19:51:59] <jstressman> and doesn't wonderbrush zoom the same way?[19:52:02] <Skipp_OSX> jstressman, well, it no longer goes fullscreen, it does a regular zoom[19:52:06] <PulkoMandy> but it's not outdated nor less practical[19:52:09] <PulkoMandy> it's just different[19:52:33] <jstressman> usability is about what is most intuitive for the user.[19:52:45] <jstressman> not forcing them to learn something that is less intuitive, but might be nice for a power user.[19:52:54] <bob_ok> wow didn't expect QupZilla to work that fast on Haiku "Son, i'm Apache OpenOffice Impress!"[19:53:00] <jstressman> that is what needs to be a NON default option, for the power user to switch to should they choose etc.[19:53:13] <jstressman> bob_ok: are you on gcc2h?[19:53:31] <jstressman> qupzilla is crashtastic for me on gcc2h :( but arfonzo says it's perfectly stable on gcc4[19:54:05] <PulkoMandy> jstressman: no[19:54:12] <PulkoMandy> it is not better or worse, not easier or harder[19:54:22] <Skipp_OSX> jstressman, just checked, Web+ maximizes right over Deskbar[19:54:22] <PulkoMandy> it's just a different way to do things[19:56:48] <bob_ok> talking about x64 port again (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15787359/Tracker_x86_64.png) this is candy to my eyes. knowing that at least Haiku Desktop works on the 64bit version already, that's very inspiring picture, all i wanted to say :)[19:57:40] <Skipp_OSX> bob_ok, yeah, the x86_64 port is coming along, still a lot to go but it is amazing that app_server and Tracker and Deskbar are all running[19:57:54] <PulkoMandy> jstressman: think of it like learning a second language[19:58:12] <Skipp_OSX> I believe Networking is also working now, so it is just a matter of getting the rest of the components working[19:58:16] <PulkoMandy> you'll find it strange that spanish has two verbs that mean "be" in different contexts, or whatever[19:58:32] <PulkoMandy> but someone that leart spanish would say it makes perfect sense and english is broken[19:58:36] <PulkoMandy> it's the same[20:00:01] <jstressman> or more like forcing someone to learn how to read and write Chinese BEFORE you teach them English, in an English speaking country.[20:00:25] <PulkoMandy> well, that's your own story :)[20:00:36] <jstressman> not really.[20:00:53] <jstressman> everything I've seen agrees with me. most users don't like it, find it uncomfortable and ugly, even after using it for a long time...[20:00:55] <PulkoMandy> I used spatial systems for the most part of my life, going mac os classic, windows 95, some variants of linux, beos then haiku[20:01:05] <jstressman> the only people that seem to like it are a couple developers. but since they make the choices, we're stuck with it.[20:01:19] <jstressman> (and the actual usability studies I've seen agree with that.)[20:01:25] <PulkoMandy> and I'm happy with it and feel uncomfortable with non-spatial tools[20:01:34] <jstressman> so I've been putting together material to write up a big article on it to kind of put the issue to rest.[20:01:40] <PulkoMandy> but most of the userbase seems to come from non-spatial world right now[20:01:42] <jstressman> so that in the future I can just link to that and save my time. ;)[20:01:59] <jstressman> I have no problem with a spatial option.[20:02:11] <jstressman> and actually like a semi-spatial browser/navigator.[20:02:12] <PulkoMandy> well, I have no problem wit a non-spatial one :)[20:02:25] <jstressman> but I can't stand full spatial navigation by default, and apparently neither can most people.[20:02:35] <PulkoMandy> most of the Haiku developers do[20:02:46] <jstressman> that's what I said. that's why we're stuck with it. ^_^[20:02:51] <PulkoMandy> and, it's not like there are dozens of other OSes to chose from[20:03:02] <PulkoMandy> why do you want bending Haiku to your preferences ?[20:03:10] <jstressman> I run 3 currently on just this computer. ;)[20:03:10] <bob_ok> jstressman: yep, right now toying around with "recommended" gcc2hybrid[20:03:27] <jstressman> bob_ok: let me know if it's stable for you. :( I can't run it for more than a few minutes without crashing it.[20:03:55] <jstressman> PulkoMandy: it's not just my preferences. it's most people's. and essentially all new modern users.[20:04:25] <jstressman> so it's more like "why are you trying to bend it away from the preferences of a few core developers who are making everyone else adjust to the way they like it?" ;)[20:05:05] <jstressman> I like Haiku because it's clean, fast, and simple. it's easy to dive into.[20:05:46] <jstressman> but I have a lot of problems with the usability of its UI. some things that are intentional, and others that just haven't been fixed yet... or are tied to the current way of doing things.[20:05:56] <jstressman> like icons on the desktop... which I think relates again to the spatial stuff.[20:05:59] <Skipp_OSX> jstressman, now, you were never a classic Mac OS user I imagine... neither was I[20:06:10] <bob_ok> sorry guys last thing I wanted is to offend anyone talking about the window aligning and snapping. It's just that Stack&Tile is so awesome, it's only natural for me to expect something like that in the future, it's fast and cool managing windows with Stack&Tile already![20:06:29] <jstressman> not really. I used them a bit in school etc... and even old TIs, and Commodore, Amigas, etc...[20:06:41] <jstressman> but my first real diving in to computers was dos/win3.1.[20:06:44] <Skipp_OSX> but, the way zoom works basically comes from that OS. Now it might not have been the most popular OS in use, well, ever, but that doesn't mean that the way it does things are invalid.[20:06:52] <jstressman> then Linux back around 1997.[20:07:28] <jstressman> well, more like 1995 or something...[20:08:19] <jstressman> I don't think Stack and Tile should be required for window management. I think that's a TERRIBLE failure of UI design. I think it's an AWESOME feature to have...[20:08:27] <jstressman> but I really don't think it should be the primary means of window management.[20:09:07] <jstressman> just because it's currently inefficient to effectively use the Deskbar for that purpose.[20:09:40] <jstressman> right now in windows (and in Linux) I can see all my windows at all times, and switch between them with a SINGLE click.[20:09:53] <jstressman> and if I didn't want that window, one more click without moving the mouse hides it again.[20:10:32] <jstressman> it's easy as pie to jump from window to window... and I can see it before I mouse to it, so I can navigate directly to it without hesitation and click 1 time to do what I want etc.[20:10:40] <jstressman> I can't really do any of that in Haiku.[20:10:59] <jstressman> I have to carefully move and size my windows to make sure vital stuff isn't covered...[20:11:06] <PulkoMandy> most of the time I don't use S&T because it's not persistent[20:11:12] <jstressman> still end up with a big stack of windows that I can't visually navigate through...[20:11:18] <PulkoMandy> I'm not going to relayout my windows each time I open them[20:11:32] <PulkoMandy> and still I manage to reach everything within a single click most of the time[20:11:54] <PulkoMandy> either click the tab bar of a window to raise it, or right click it to lower the window and see what's below[20:12:01] <jstressman> and if I do use the deskbar, I have to make sure to change it to always expand the list of windows etc so that I can at least get to a window in 1 click, although I can't hide it again with 1 click...[20:12:04] <PulkoMandy> I hardly ever use the deskbar for that[20:12:24] <jstressman> nor can I see the name of most of the windows because they're truncated and have no popup to show the full name etc.[20:12:28] <bob_ok> i'm curious how hard it would be to do something like porting Chromium to Haiku. I scrolled trough the add-on marketplace some time ago, boy i was like "my god it's full of stars". I can imagine having at least 1% of those on Haiku, that'd be superb[20:13:29] <PulkoMandy> jstressman: well-behaving apps store their window position and size and restore it when run again[20:13:44] <PulkoMandy> the result is that over time, the windows end up popping just were you expect them[20:13:57] <PulkoMandy> helps with keeping the desktop tidy, and helps with spatial memory[20:14:01] <jstressman> http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/phreadom/haiku/haikuclutter1b.png[20:14:21] <PulkoMandy> well[20:14:26] <jstressman> that's usually what my desktop looks like, unless I'm trying very hard to manually organize things to be able to still see enough of each window to get to it.[20:14:30] <PulkoMandy> you *see* all your open windows there[20:14:37] <jstressman> and often one will get lost behind the others... and I won't even know it's there..[20:14:45] <PulkoMandy> on a non-spatial system I end up with everything maximized[20:14:46] <jstressman> so I open another terminal or whatever...[20:14:55] <PulkoMandy> and keep clicking around to switch windows all the time[20:15:11] <jstressman> (you'll notice I can't see the deskbar either... which goes back to what I mentioned earlier)[20:15:17] <PulkoMandy> in haiku with focus follow mouse I have no such problem, I have the windows I need and they don't have to take more space than needed[20:15:49] <jstressman> and of course I could force it to stay on top, but then my windows go under it and are partially hidden... or I make it autoraise, but then I can't make it go away unless I click on the app title bar in many apps etc... so it's inconsistent and frustrating...[20:16:34] <PulkoMandy> well, there are problems with the current implementation for sure[20:16:45] <PulkoMandy> but I think they are not caused by the spatial paradigm[20:16:51] <jstressman> some of them are.[20:17:27] <jstressman> icon layout I think is a good example that I'm pretty sure is tied to the spatial paradigm.[20:17:54] <PulkoMandy> not really[20:18:15] <jstressman> I open a window and icons are scattered all over the place.[20:18:30] <jstressman> even in general use clicking on icons usually nudges them a few pixels...[20:18:47] <PulkoMandy> the current icon mode is a spatial one, so once you put your icons at the right place they don't need to move again[20:18:47] <jstressman> so I end up constantly doing "clean up" or alt-K to clean things up a bit...[20:19:01] <PulkoMandy> do you use tracker in single window mode ?[20:19:31] <jstressman> since there's no "snap to grid" to put them back in place if you accidentally nudge one a bit trying to open it. (which I often do and end up getting asked if I want to rename it or make a shortcut etc)[20:19:34] <jstressman> yes.[20:19:36] <PulkoMandy> in multi-window mode, each folder remembers it's window position and size, and the position of icons in it[20:19:41] <PulkoMandy> so there is no such problem[20:19:55] <jstressman> it does in single window mode as well.[20:19:59] <PulkoMandy> press alt+K once if you want to cleanup a window (this hardly ever happens to me)[20:20:08] <PulkoMandy> or layout your icons the way you want[20:20:10] <jstressman> if you open the window directly. otherwise it remembers everything but size/location of the window.[20:20:14] <Skipp_OSX> anyway, you are really confounding 2 issues[20:20:18] <jstressman> which follows from whichever window you opened first.[20:20:36] <jstressman> I'm talking about my desktop primarily.[20:20:55] <Skipp_OSX> Tracker could use a snap to grid feature as well as an auto-arrange feature[20:20:58] <jstressman> which works the same regardless, and is the primary focal point of filesystem navigation.[20:21:04] <PulkoMandy> the desktop is a bit more confused yes[20:21:06] <Skipp_OSX> that wouldn't make it any less spacial[20:21:17] <PulkoMandy> in "pure" spatial mode there is no such thing as files on the desktop[20:21:23] <PulkoMandy> only disk volumes[20:21:32] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, really?[20:21:35] <PulkoMandy> (notice how this matches the output of "ls /" in terminal)[20:21:55] <Skipp_OSX> ahh, I see, you are saying that the Desktop is /[20:22:00] <PulkoMandy> it should be yes[20:22:10] <jstressman> *shakes head sadly*[20:22:19] <Skipp_OSX> um, hmm, well for multi-user that wouldn't work well[20:22:21] <PulkoMandy> but there is a transgression to spatial mode in Haiku (and BeOS) to make things easier to use[20:22:26] <jstressman> way to completely toss the "desktop" paradigm right out the window.[20:22:32] <jstressman> shouldn't even call it desktop at that point. ;)[20:22:40] <PulkoMandy> jstressman: sure, that's why we're not doing it that way[20:22:41] <Skipp_OSX> but, forgetting multi-user for now, why should the Desktop == root ?[20:23:06] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: that's the "pure" spatial mode. The desktop is the root of everything on the computer[20:23:12] <jstressman> "this, my dear new user, is a special space called the root. don't worry, eventually you'll learn why this blank space in front of you can't be used like a desktop as you'd probably expect."[20:23:21] <PulkoMandy> I don't say we should go all the way there[20:23:38] <Skipp_OSX> but, it isn't really, I mean, it is on a disk, which is on a volume, which sits above /[20:23:52] <jstressman> at least I'm learning new things today. :D[20:23:57] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: that's the kludge we did to make it more useful[20:24:07] <PulkoMandy> in mac os classic it was not that way for example[20:24:16] <PulkoMandy> or GEM (Atari ST) or other spatial systems[20:24:19] <Skipp_OSX> I see, but you are saying that the floor of your computer is just disks[20:24:46] <PulkoMandy> that was the plan in early BeOS versions[20:25:16] <Skipp_OSX> I guess that makes sense, but is not very useful[20:25:22] <PulkoMandy> I think it's better than the unix way were / is a mix of your root filesystem and some magic folders like /mnt, /dev, ...[20:25:54] <PulkoMandy> the current state in Haiku mixes a bit of all these solutions[20:26:11] <PulkoMandy> and that's why the desktop is behaving strange :)[20:27:00] <Skipp_OSX> well, I've said before that there should be a separation between the place where a users files go, and the place where the apps and system and support files go[20:27:36] <PulkoMandy> well, there's /home and /system, right ?[20:27:52] <Skipp_OSX> and the user should not ever have to touch the support files so they should be hidden and should be able to touch any of the files he can see[20:27:59] *** dak has joined #haiku[20:28:14] <Skipp_OSX> right basically, so, hide /system from Tracker, don't show it at all, and only show /home[20:28:15] <PulkoMandy> I don't think hiding is a solution[20:28:34] <PulkoMandy> hiding stuff is what makes people think computers are magic[20:28:53] <PulkoMandy> instead, I prefer making things simple enough so that user feel they are in control of what is going on[20:28:57] <Skipp_OSX> true, but, what that would do is make it so that the user would have absolute control over all the files he can see[20:29:02] <PulkoMandy> an example of this is having a single system/ folder[20:29:24] <Skipp_OSX> he can delete them, move them, rename them, etc. without fear[20:29:25] <PulkoMandy> you just have to know that this is the system (easy to guess by the name)[20:29:31] <PulkoMandy> and that you don't have to mess with it[20:29:48] <Skipp_OSX> sure I understand that, and I guess it really isn't too big a deal[20:29:52] <PulkoMandy> if you feel curious, you can enter the folder and discover more things[20:30:04] <PulkoMandy> with the package manager, /system will be read-only[20:30:12] <PulkoMandy> so you can't really do any harm[20:30:17] <Skipp_OSX> where do fonts go?[20:30:37] <PulkoMandy> mh, no idea how we do that now[20:30:38] <Skipp_OSX> like how would I install new ones, I guess you put them in your home/config[20:30:45] <Skipp_OSX> home/config/fonts[20:30:51] <Skipp_OSX> and then system/config/fonts is read only[20:30:51] <PulkoMandy> the idea with the package manager is[20:31:06] <PulkoMandy> if you have a package, you install (mount) it and it pops up under /common[20:31:23] <PulkoMandy> if you have only plain files, you can use home/config[20:31:38] <PulkoMandy> and that will hopefully go away over time as everything gets cleanly packaged[20:32:30] <PulkoMandy> it makes /common/ one kind of "magic" folder[20:32:38] <PulkoMandy> so we may want to hide that one from the user[20:32:48] <PulkoMandy> (as a matter of fact, it is not actually stored on disk)[20:33:32] <PulkoMandy> the system itself would be a package as well[20:33:43] <PulkoMandy> I don't know if we would show it as a folder or as a file[20:34:25] <Skipp_OSX> alright, right now I have apps/ beos/ common/ develop/ home/ optional/ preferences/ and system/ folders in my root[20:34:34] *** dak has quit IRC[20:35:31] <PulkoMandy> mh[20:35:37] <PulkoMandy> optional should be removed[20:35:43] <PulkoMandy> I wonder why we are still doing this[20:35:48] <PulkoMandy> we have optional packages now[20:35:59] <PulkoMandy> preferences seems useless as well[20:36:08] <Skipp_OSX> canna whatever that is[20:36:23] <PulkoMandy> yes, it's an input add-on for entering japanse characters[20:36:28] <Skipp_OSX> preferences is empty[20:36:31] <PulkoMandy> but could be an optional package[20:36:39] <Skipp_OSX> okay, so we should be able to get rid of those 2[20:36:53] <Skipp_OSX> it might be from Gobe Productive idk[20:37:05] <PulkoMandy> no, I have the same folder here[20:37:15] <PulkoMandy> looks like created by Haiku for some reason[20:37:20] <Skipp_OSX> hmm, well, that should probably go somewhere else[20:37:21] <PulkoMandy> or maybe some other app I installed[20:37:26] <PulkoMandy> well[20:37:32] <Skipp_OSX> apps should go in common right?[20:37:36] *** tqh has joined #haiku[20:37:54] <PulkoMandy> there is a distinction for now[20:38:15] <PulkoMandy> system/ and common/ are the world of Haiku-packaged stuff[20:38:19] <PulkoMandy> and UNIX-like[20:38:32] <PulkoMandy> while apps/ is for 3rd party apps that are self contained[20:38:46] <Skipp_OSX> I see... this is getting complicated[20:38:57] <PulkoMandy> these should go away as the package manager is made powerful enough to handle all apps[20:39:09] <Skipp_OSX> right, well, huh?[20:39:11] <PulkoMandy> (and more importantly, allow to uninstall them)[20:39:41] <Skipp_OSX> I put apps in apps/ that I install, self-contained ones now, where am I suppose to put those?[20:40:08] <PulkoMandy> for now it works this way yes[20:40:27] <PulkoMandy> with the package manager application will come as packages[20:40:57] <PulkoMandy> I don't remember the final plan for installing those, IIRC you have to put them in the apps/ folder or some similar place anyway[20:41:02] <Skipp_OSX> well, except for the ones that don't... I guess those could go in home/apps[20:41:07] <PulkoMandy> and they are picked by the package manager filesystem[20:41:34] <PulkoMandy> there should be no apps outside of a package actually[20:41:56] <PulkoMandy> look at Mac OS X where each app is actually a folder with a lot of mess inside[20:41:59] <Skipp_OSX> okay, I see, so, even old Be apps are gonna get packaged is the idea then[20:42:06] <PulkoMandy> yes[20:42:29] <PulkoMandy> or we can keep some way for R1[20:42:44] <PulkoMandy> and make the system package-only as we remove BeOS compatibility[20:44:00] <Skipp_OSX> I still don't understand where fonts go :)[20:45:02] <Skipp_OSX> I guess they'd go in common/data/fonts if installed from a package...[20:45:24] <PulkoMandy> yes[20:45:42] <PulkoMandy> I think we are going to keep home/config as a space for unpackaged stuff[20:45:47] <Skipp_OSX> see I was thinking of common/ as more of a mirror of each users home directory for shared stuff[20:46:01] <PulkoMandy> yes, right now that's more or less what it is[20:46:03] <Skipp_OSX> so, even if you didn't install from a package you'd want common stuff to go in common[20:46:11] <PulkoMandy> well[20:46:23] <Skipp_OSX> so if you wanted to install a system wide font, you'd use common/data/fonts but I guess that doesn't work ?[20:46:32] <PulkoMandy> you risk breaking your system if you put the wrong file in the wrong place[20:46:55] <PulkoMandy> so the idea is only allowing packages to be system-wide[20:47:07] <PulkoMandy> as these can easily be reverted[20:47:28] <PulkoMandy> (you can boot with the bare set of system packages, remove the offending thing, and reboot again)[20:47:41] <PulkoMandy> while files scattered all over the place aren't that easy to track[20:49:15] <Skipp_OSX> okay I guess that makes sense, now just hide common and system and there you go :)[20:49:33] *** HaikuUser has joined #haiku[20:51:11] <PulkoMandy> well, there's nothing to hide anyway, since these aren't real folders[20:51:21] <Skipp_OSX> actually you wouldn't want to hide those[20:51:44] <PulkoMandy> in the current version they are still visible[20:52:09] <PulkoMandy> but I don't mind[20:52:21] <Skipp_OSX> well, no you would want those unhidden so you could copy things out of them I guess[20:52:38] *** jjido has quit IRC[20:52:40] <Skipp_OSX> like if you wanted to copy a font onto your usb stick you'd need to go into commong/data/fonts and grab it for instance[20:52:45] <PulkoMandy> well, you could extract from the packages the files are actually in[20:52:55] <PulkoMandy> or just copy the package which is simpler[20:53:40] <Skipp_OSX> well, assuming you wanted to use the font on Haiku sure, but if you wanted it for another system...[20:54:40] <PulkoMandy> the package is only a zip file or somethig similar IIRC[20:54:46] <Skipp_OSX> you could hide beos/ as that is probably going to stay for legacy reasons[20:54:48] <PulkoMandy> so, open and extract[20:55:07] <PulkoMandy> going away in R2[20:55:11] <PulkoMandy> :)[20:56:18] <Skipp_OSX> now what about home/.bash_history :)[20:57:23] <Skipp_OSX> I guess bash needs to be taught to put its config files in home/config/[20:58:49] <bob_ok> jstressman: S&T puts yellow tabs to use, just saying. When i demonstrated Haiku to some friends they've always asked "why there's yellow tabs everywhere". i say "that's why" and do stackin', I'm actually in love with this feature, don't care about how ugly it looks for some ui design guys. it helps me do things faster. I like it as much as the aero/aquasnap thing in windows.[20:59:27] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: yes, I guess everyone is frightened by bash code :)[20:59:28] <jstressman> that's not why the tabs are there.[20:59:43] <PulkoMandy> they are there because it looks cool ![21:00:06] <jstressman> I've never thought it looked cool either. it makes the window shapes inconsistent... thus adding visual noise to the screen.[21:00:10] <jstressman> just for the sake of being different.[21:00:21] <PulkoMandy> well[21:00:29] <PulkoMandy> for the sake of being like BeOS, actually[21:00:45] <PulkoMandy> and I think the guys at Be did it that way because they had no time to think about it[21:00:52] <jstressman> instead of "this button is always at the top left of the window (large visual object) and this one is always at the top right"[21:01:11] <PulkoMandy> the first version of the app_server was like "hey, we're giving a demo next week and we can't show only command line stuff!"[21:01:20] <jstressman> you instead have "varying sized small tab... which will change even though the window size doesn't, depending on contents... possibly..." etc.[21:01:27] <jstressman> (web+, tracker with folder names, etc.)[21:01:54] *** Negr0_VoP2P has joined #haiku[21:02:00] <jstressman> it would seem like it would take more work to make the tab independent rather than just match the window size?[21:02:22] <PulkoMandy> likely they made the tab before the window ? :)[21:02:49] <PulkoMandy> something like, draw a square, draw text, draw another square[21:03:04] <PulkoMandy> and the rest of the space was just left blank or transparent[21:03:45] <jstressman> hmm... I couldn't really even speculate. :) too ignorant about programming.[21:05:31] *** Negr0_VoP2P has quit IRC[21:05:38] *** Negr0_VoP2P has joined #haiku[21:10:12] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[21:10:42] *** _marc` has joined #haiku[21:10:43] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[21:14:56] *** Spacewalker has joined #haiku[21:19:09] <HAIKU-Buildbot_> build #680 of x86-FreeBSD-host is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at http://mmadia.dyndns.org:8010/builders/x86-FreeBSD-host/builds/680[21:24:16] <bob_ok> jstressman: well in some future update the tabs might be limited to some reasonable width and the rest is shown to you in a tool tip (just saying). Primary example is the Web Browser titles (which are often too long because of you know, long website names). Might work actually[21:24:45] <bob_ok> okay i'm gonna go feed one pretty fkin big cat I promised to take care of. I call him Ballmer.[21:24:59] *** bob_ok has quit IRC[21:30:37] <Skipp_OSX> The tab is certainly different though[21:35:44][21:36:03] *** stargater has joined #haiku[21:36:05] <stargater> hi[21:36:12] <stargater> is haiku-os.org down ?[21:36:18] <Skipp_OSX> I mean Twitcher already provides a way to cycle through apps and windows[21:36:34] <Skipp_OSX> stargater, works forme[21:36:52] <stargater> ok thx[21:36:59] <Skipp_OSX> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/haiku-os.org[21:39:41] <jstressman> back... sorry, was reading. let me catch up.[21:40:27] <jstressman> Skipp_OSX: http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/phreadom/haiku/haikuclutter13.png[21:40:38] <jstressman> http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/phreadom/haiku/haikuclutter14.png[21:40:57] <jstressman> those were my mockups that I made awhile back... I have a lot more ideas now... but haven't had time to make updated ones.[21:41:25] <jstressman> basically just whip the mouse to the upper left or whatever and boom... instant overview of all your open windows, with easily readable titles etc.[21:41:36] <Skipp_OSX> jstressman, yes, that would be nice[21:41:39] <jstressman> (or use some hotkey)[21:41:50] <augiedoggie> didn't axel start working on something like that[21:41:50] <Skipp_OSX> except maybe group the window apps together[21:41:54] <dreamed> looks like Mission Control heh[21:42:16] <Skipp_OSX> an unrelated question, what is with the clock having a full date?[21:42:21] *** MatthewH12` has joined #haiku[21:43:54] <jstressman> dunno :) that's just how it was...[21:43:54] *** Negr0_VoP2P has quit IRC[21:44:09] <jstressman> (and I liked it that way) ;)[21:44:23] <Skipp_OSX> That's not an option though... right?[21:44:34] <jstressman> let me check.[21:44:35] <PulkoMandy> jstressman: you know we have some kind of thing like that ?[21:44:37] <Skipp_OSX> did you use a clock replacement?[21:44:42] <jstressman> Skipp_OSX: no.[21:44:43] <PulkoMandy> axeld started working on it[21:44:52] <PulkoMandy> but it is not included in the image yet[21:44:55] <jstressman> PulkoMandy: did he? I haven't heard anything about it.[21:45:06] <Skipp_OSX> Is that Switcher you're talking about?[21:45:06] <PulkoMandy> it's called switcher iirc[21:45:17] *** MatthewH12 has quit IRC[21:45:24] <Skipp_OSX> yeah okay, Humdinger made that work... or really just checked that it worked :)[21:45:42] <dreamed> jstressman: http://photos.appleinsider.com/mission-120618.jpg[21:45:53] <dreamed> you can add more desktop spaces, which show across the top[21:46:55] <Skipp_OSX> I have also thought about splitting the app list off of the rest of Deskbar into it's own window kind of like how you have launchbar in that screenshot[21:47:11] <PulkoMandy> well[21:47:20] <jstressman> Skipp_OSX: I don't know what happened to the clock. :/ it used to be there... they must have removed the options or something recently?[21:47:23] <Skipp_OSX> but, what would go in the middle part there?[21:47:24] <PulkoMandy> it's not like there are so much things in the deskbar besides the window list[21:47:26] <dreamed> I firmly believe an app launcher should also function as a task manager[21:47:32] <dreamed> i.e. mac dock, windows 7 task panel[21:47:44] <PulkoMandy> jstressman: yes, this was removed[21:47:51] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, the leaf menu and status tray...[21:47:53] <PulkoMandy> but it's possible to do it as a replicant anyway[21:48:05] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: yes, that doesn't take that much space[21:48:32] <PulkoMandy> I hope we will not end up like windows, having thousands of replicants installed by each piece of software you add to Haiku[21:48:57] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, right, well, see the way I envision it working, leaf in corner, tray next to it, separate app menu somewhere on the side or bottom or whatever[21:49:29] <PulkoMandy> sounds almost like the compact mode[21:49:37] *** vezhlys has joined #haiku[21:49:40] *** tqh has quit IRC[21:49:43] <jstressman> PulkoMandy: do you know why it was removed?[21:50:03] <PulkoMandy> jstressman: wastes too much space and it's not very useful[21:50:07] <Skipp_OSX> well the difference is that the status tray icons would continue to grow horizontally instead of growing down[21:50:07] <jstressman> I liked the ability to have the long date. :([21:50:16] <PulkoMandy> and, as I said, it's easy to add this as a replicant[21:50:20] <jstressman> all kinds of space when it's in horizontal mode. :)[21:50:28] <PulkoMandy> you can have a look at webwatch source in haiku and tweak it to do that[21:50:32] *** jua_ has quit IRC[21:50:36] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: you'd end up with a weird use of screen realestate like that though[21:50:39] *** juaa_ has joined #haiku[21:50:46] <Skipp_OSX> jstressman, the long date option could be done, and easily, right now... but, I would get yelled at[21:50:58] <jstressman> I read over stippi's article on the website about it...[21:51:00] * dreamed likes long / medium date as well[21:51:02] <jstressman> gave me a lot of good ideas.[21:51:11] <jstressman> so I wanted to do some new mockups etc and write an article about it on my blog.[21:51:44] <jstressman> Skipp_OSX: don't get yourself yelled at. ;) I'm not going on another clock crusade any time in the near future. ;) haha[21:51:49] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, well, maybe, yeah, I haven't quite figured out the details...[21:51:53] <PulkoMandy> jsut patch webwatch[21:52:09] <PulkoMandy> the problem is not the clock by itself, it's adding an option for it[21:52:16] <PulkoMandy> it's a bell-and-whistle feature[21:52:16] *** Negr0_VoP2P has joined #haiku[21:52:17] <stargater> jstressman: the png look ok[21:52:20] <PulkoMandy> so make a replicant for it[21:52:29] <PulkoMandy> and people who don't want it will not notice it's there[21:52:44] <Skipp_OSX> eventually I would like to add an app launcher to Deskbar like Windows Taskbar and Mac OS X dock[21:52:50] <PulkoMandy> people who want it can easily install it[21:53:14] <PulkoMandy> well we have Launchbox, I guess some stack&tile magic could make it work ?[21:53:14] *** adamk has quit IRC[21:53:34] <Skipp_OSX> but, again, these things are really all future enhancements, you don't need any of them for a decent functional OS, so, they are all R2 type ideas[21:54:14] <Skipp_OSX> Technically Deskbar was R1 complete on day 1[21:54:33] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: do you mean application launcher functionality integrated with deskbar? i.e. how pinned dock / taskpanel items work?[21:54:33] <PulkoMandy> that was easy - it's BeOS code :)[21:54:36] *** idefix_gromit has joined #haiku[21:54:42] <dreamed> click to launch, click again to focus window / show windows[21:54:52] * dreamed would love that[21:55:00] <PulkoMandy> well[21:55:03] <Skipp_OSX> I have lots of ideas for Deskbar and Tracker, none of them will get us closer to R1 unfortunately :([21:55:10] <PulkoMandy> I think the current interface is too application centric[21:55:23] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, vs. what?[21:55:24] <PulkoMandy> we should focus on documents instead[21:55:28] <dreamed> what?[21:55:32] <dreamed> why?[21:55:38] <PulkoMandy> because it's simpler[21:55:48] <Skipp_OSX> oh, haha, you're making jokes[21:55:48] <dreamed> example?[21:55:49] *** oco has joined #haiku[21:55:52] <PulkoMandy> you don't care that pdf open with BePDF and web pages with web+[21:56:05] <PulkoMandy> just click the document ant the right app will open[21:56:10] <dreamed> er[21:56:15] <dreamed> okay, but how do you tie that into a ui?[21:56:20] <dreamed> you're talking about a file manager[21:56:34] <jstressman> like say you want to start wonderbrush.[21:56:40] <jstressman> but don't have any icons for it right in front of you.[21:56:46] <PulkoMandy> yes[21:56:48] <dreamed> what is this, unix?[21:56:49] <stargater> i used ubuntu unity, some stuff are good and some ar bad for me. I think for haiku R? we need brainstorm waht funktion ar good for a desktop. Defently i vote for better key to app/funktion handling, deskbar add-ons,[21:56:50] <Skipp_OSX> right, that's already an app, it's called Tracker :)[21:56:53] <PulkoMandy> I need to think about that some more[21:56:55] <jstressman> and don't want to dig into the app menu (which is inefficiently placed at the moment and 2 levels deep at least)[21:57:06] <dreamed> jstressman: which is the rationale for a dock-like system[21:57:13] <jstressman> so you click, type "Won"... and have it tab complete or something and launch it?[21:57:19] <dreamed> which works well, and has been adopted in most major os interfaces now[21:57:22] <jstressman> I'm guessing that's what you want?[21:57:23] <PulkoMandy> the current solution would be right click > new > Wonderbrush picture[21:57:25] <dreamed> why do I need to type?[21:57:34] <dreamed> but you have to be able to see the desktop for that[21:57:36] <stargater> the coolnes form haiku is that some dektop komonets ar apps => eg: worspace[21:57:42] <dreamed> so if you've got apps open, that's more annoying[21:57:53] <dreamed> also[21:57:57] <dreamed> clicking one button, ala dock[21:58:00] <dreamed> which is an easy target[21:58:04] <dreamed> vs navigating a menu?[21:58:15] <dreamed> one of those is significantly easier than the other[21:58:17] <Skipp_OSX> yeah, I can agree there, should be one click[21:58:19] <dreamed> hint: not the menu[21:58:22] <jstressman> dreamed: yeah, that's the idea I was pursuing in my mockups as well.. to add a dock-like functionality for pinning "favorite" apps etc.[21:58:32] <dreamed> jstressman: *nod*[21:58:41] *** idefix_gromit has left #haiku[21:58:43] <Skipp_OSX> menus should only be for extra functionality, not core[21:58:43] <dreamed> I think it should be integrated into deskbar functionality, personally[21:58:44] <jstressman> dreamed: I have a lot more sketches in my notebook. just haven't gotten around to making nice mockups with all the new ideas. time time time. ;)[21:58:48] <PulkoMandy> not everything can be one-click[21:58:55] <PulkoMandy> or you would need an HUGE screen[21:58:55] <dreamed> not everything should be one click[21:59:05] <dreamed> but major tasks shouldn't need to be menu driven[21:59:12] <PulkoMandy> (NextStep tried that)[21:59:20] <dreamed> NeXT didn't scale[21:59:23] <dreamed> OSX does[21:59:28] * jstressman has a NeXT system in the garage.[21:59:29] <Skipp_OSX> I like the idea of a Dock-like Deskbar that holds apps open and closed alike[21:59:34] <dreamed> you can have every app you want in the dock on osx if you like[21:59:38] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: ditto[21:59:39] <PulkoMandy> or the menus should be made easier to navigate[21:59:42] <dreamed> it's a proven ui paradigm[21:59:46] <jstressman> 21" color NeXT monitor... 33mhz turbo slab..[21:59:48] <dreamed> menus aren't easy to navigate[21:59:55] <Skipp_OSX> but windows in docs should be in another level, like windows 7 taskbar, not like Mac OS X Dock[21:59:56] <dreamed> you need precise mouse coordination[21:59:59] <dreamed> and not everyone has it[22:00:10] <dreamed> how many times have you seen someone open a menu, then overshoot the target submenu?[22:00:13] <dreamed> etc[22:00:16] <PulkoMandy> yes[22:00:24] <jstressman> I mess up navigating the menu constantly.[22:00:25] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: another level?[22:00:32] <dreamed> you mean click / hover?[22:00:32] <PulkoMandy> that's what I say, find a way to make that simpler[22:00:36] <jstressman> which is part of the reason I HATE using it... especially trying to navigate the file system with it...[22:00:36] <dreamed> which is sorta how deskbar already works?[22:00:36] <Skipp_OSX> like, the doc should be for apps on level 1, windows on level 2[22:00:44] <jstressman> that can be handy sometimes, but usually I don't like using it.[22:00:47] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, menu level 2[22:00:54] *** JonathanThompson has joined #haiku[22:00:54] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: I don't know what you're saying[22:00:56] <jstressman> at least not as a primary means of navigation by any means.[22:00:57] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, or 0 and 1 let's say[22:01:24] *** adamk has joined #haiku[22:01:35] <jstressman> *dock ?[22:01:49] <jstressman> "the dock should be for apps on level 1" ?[22:01:55] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, basically, what I'm saying is that windows don't minimize into the dock like on Mac, but into the app icon, accessed by a right-click menu let's say[22:02:13] <stargater> hmm haiku have a dock i think[22:02:14] <jstressman> that, however, is something I hate. :([22:02:15] <CIA-63> haiku.master: anevilyak * hrev44522 http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/commit/?id=ebe79df :[22:02:15] <CIA-63> Added GCC4 packages of liblayout, BePDF and Beam.[22:02:15] <CIA-63> Provided by Chris Roberts. Thanks![22:02:20] <stargater> app launcer ?[22:02:21] <jstressman> app level buttons[22:02:45] <jstressman> we're working with windows, not applications. I hate having to do extra things to get to my window.[22:02:57] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: oh, you can tell mac windows to minimise into the icon[22:03:04] <dreamed> I'd forgotten there was ever any other way[22:03:07] <Skipp_OSX> jstressman, no, we are working with apps, apps have 1 or more windows[22:03:08] <dreamed> in fact I think that's the default now[22:03:15] <jstressman> say I have 20 tracker windows open. I want to be able to go directly to the one I want... not click on a stupid "tracker" icon that I don't care about... then find my window.[22:03:20] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: we are working with document windows[22:03:25] <PulkoMandy> apps are just a technical aspect[22:03:36] <PulkoMandy> try to forget about them in the UI a bit[22:03:37] <dreamed> I don't think that's necessarily accurate[22:03:37] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, yes you can, I've tried it before, I didn't really like it for some reason[22:03:42] <PulkoMandy> and think how it could work[22:03:43] <dreamed> I have a very app centric workflow[22:03:52] <dreamed> in my case, for photography[22:04:04] <dreamed> some things I want to open in photoshop, others in lightroom, while also having preview showing some[22:04:08] <stargater> the deskbar have a windows from app open[22:04:10] <dreamed> as an example[22:04:12] <jstressman> it's creating extra levels of obfuscation between me and the actual window I want to get to.[22:04:14] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, I don't know, I feel that document-centered interfaces tend to over-promise and under-deliver[22:04:18] <jstressman> and that makes me a very unhappy camper.[22:04:22] <dreamed> I will often have the same image loaded in LR and PS at the same time[22:04:29] <dreamed> jstressman: agreed[22:04:41] <PulkoMandy> dreamed: sure, it does needs some careful thinking[22:04:50] <PulkoMandy> and I don't say we should completely hide apps either[22:04:53] <Skipp_OSX> I still don't get the concept really... I understand apps, I understand documents, but I don't understand how you can come from the document first[22:05:00] <dreamed> it really sounds like you have a solution in search of a problem[22:05:01] <dreamed> imo[22:05:09] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: ditto[22:05:09] <PulkoMandy> maybe[22:05:23] *** PasNox has quit IRC[22:05:25] <PulkoMandy> I don't know, it makes sense to me[22:05:35] <jstressman> have you seen how windows 7 handles it? when you don't use the single icon method?[22:05:47] <Skipp_OSX> especially since not all apps deal with documents[22:06:03] <stargater> jstressman: win7 have nor virtal desktops[22:06:07] <PulkoMandy> for example, I want to use different apps for the same project, like editing code and looking at API documentation in Web+[22:06:13] <Skipp_OSX> some apps, like your web browser don't really have the concept of a document,t hey are a viewer of "the web"[22:06:18] <PulkoMandy> to me, the fact that Web+ and a text editor are open is not relevant[22:06:31] <PulkoMandy> the fact that the API doc and the code are related is more important[22:06:37] <dreamed> PulkoMandy: the thing with os ui design is it has to make sense to a lot of people, and is particularly worth studying people who've never used the platform interacting with it, as well as seasoned users[22:06:57] <dreamed> so there has to be either an incredibly intuitive user interface for what you're talking about, or prior art which people are familiar with[22:07:03] <jstressman> http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/phreadom/taskbar1.png[22:07:07] <Skipp_OSX> You can't segregate the web that way, it just doesn't make sense[22:07:21] <jstressman> so I have a separate "button" for every window, and windows from the same app are grouped together.[22:07:26] <dreamed> if you want to build an os purely for engineers, maybe that would make sense[22:07:39] <jstressman> so things stick together per app, but I can still easily get to anything in a single click.[22:07:43] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: well, Android has "activity" centered design which is closer to what I'm thinking about[22:07:43] <Skipp_OSX> jstressman, is that a joke?[22:07:48] <dreamed> that is a hideously ugly taskbar[22:08:02] <dreamed> and you break half of fitt's laws ;)[22:08:09] <Skipp_OSX> that is an abomination[22:08:13] <PulkoMandy> like, you are in the web browser, you click a mailto: url, and you get to the mail client[22:08:23] <dreamed> PulkoMandy: why on earth would you base a desktop ui on a mobile ui?[22:08:25] <dreamed> apples / oranges[22:08:30] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, okay, I get that... sorta[22:08:31] <dreamed> we've seen something like that before[22:08:52] <dreamed> unbuntu unity - based on using a frigging netbook[22:08:53] <jstressman> I'm on a tiny monitor at the moment. :P[22:08:53] <Skipp_OSX> what about a VM? That seems like something you'd want to go app first on[22:08:57] *** oco has quit IRC[22:09:00] <dreamed> which are now almost totally irrelevant[22:09:24] <Skipp_OSX> I have an app that is an on screen ruler, how would that fit in?[22:09:30] <jstressman> it was more to just show the idea of covering "apps" and "windows" at the same time.[22:09:40] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: Mac OS X has desktop accessories for these[22:09:49] <dreamed> desktop accessories?[22:09:55] <dreamed> you're not talking about the dashboard are you?[22:09:57] <dreamed> noone uses it[22:10:01] <jstressman> I LOATHE Ubuntu Unity.[22:10:05] <dreamed> and it's totally segregated[22:10:08] <dreamed> jstressman: nearly everyone does heh[22:10:12] <PulkoMandy> dreamed: no, I mean Mac OS classic[22:10:20] <dreamed> PulkoMandy: oic[22:10:21] <PulkoMandy> the very first version without multitasking[22:10:24] <Skipp_OSX> well, I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but yes, I am saying it is a bad idea :)[22:10:31] <dreamed> Mac OS X != classic is all[22:10:31] <PulkoMandy> they allowed the calculator and similar stuff to run[22:10:34] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: heh[22:10:37] <Skipp_OSX> at least I can't envision it.[22:10:38] <PulkoMandy> yes, sorrry, mistyped :)[22:11:02] <dreamed> PulkoMandy: the classic mac oses had a lot of interesting ui design[22:11:05] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, so you are saying that Desk Accessories are the only type of pure app that's allowed?[22:11:09] <PulkoMandy> well, I have to sit down and think about it more and make some mockups anyway[22:11:09] <dreamed> the os was largely terribad, underneath[22:11:09] <jstressman> my point is that as ugly as this windows setup is, it's WAY WAY WAY more functional to me than Haiku is for window management.[22:11:19] <Skipp_OSX> because they are small and self-contained?[22:11:22] <jstressman> it takes far less clicks and time to do what I normally do.[22:11:34] <dreamed> jstressman: dock + expose = win[22:11:36] <dreamed> imo[22:11:39] <Skipp_OSX> jstressman, no, you are a bad person and you should feel bad[22:11:39] <jstressman> I can see all my windows, they don't cover my task list, I can switch with a single click, etc.[22:11:42] <dreamed> expose for choosing active window[22:11:47] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: well, there are going to be exceptions as usual anyway[22:11:51] <dreamed> dock for advanced window functions on right click, or launch, or bring to front[22:12:17] <PulkoMandy> the IM Kit is an example of what I mean, using people files as the base for an IM client[22:12:26] <PulkoMandy> and a tracker query for contact status roster[22:12:28] <dreamed> that would be incredibly ugly to organise[22:12:33] <PulkoMandy> but that may be taking it too far already[22:13:00] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, well hold on, organization is not really a problem since you have queries for that...[22:13:20] <Skipp_OSX> meaning you wouldn't have to browse, you could search[22:13:29] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: that works for some people[22:13:32] <dreamed> it doesn't work for me[22:13:39] <dreamed> I prefer to see/interact[22:13:41] <jstressman> are there any previews of what Axel is/was working on? the desktop windows overview thingy?[22:13:42] <dreamed> rather than have to start typing[22:13:45] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: I can see hpw things like an FTP client could be a problem however...[22:13:48] <Skipp_OSX> yeah, I feel that, there are some people who prefer browsing to searching[22:13:57] <dreamed> so it makes sense to have a ui that works for both[22:14:04] <dreamed> take adium for IM as an example[22:14:04] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, well, Plan 9 has the solution for that[22:14:09] <dreamed> graphical, shows contacts[22:14:13] <dreamed> start typing and it starts searching[22:14:18] <jstressman> dreamed: yeah, I'm a visual person. many of my friends don't think the same way.[22:14:31] <stargater> jstressman: see you this and have read it ? http://api.haiku-os.org/HIG/[22:14:38] <dreamed> jstressman: there are three ways people tend to interact with information[22:14:44] <dreamed> visually, via language, or via sound[22:14:49] <dreamed> all three are useful in an os[22:14:52] <jstressman> stargater: I've read a couple of those pages, but not all of it.[22:14:58] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, on Plan9 an ftp server is just a file like everything else so you would use ftp just like it was a local part of your system[22:15:03] <dreamed> being able to navigate with only one of the three is limiting[22:15:16] <stargater> jstressman: http://api.haiku-os.org/HIG/chapter7.html#id2486601 -> Design Tips is your frend ;-)[22:15:17] *** luroh has joined #haiku[22:15:30] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: sure, you could have some project file or ookmark[22:15:36] <jstressman> Plan 9 is incredible from a technical standpoint... but you have to be a genius guru or something to actually do anything useful with it. ;)[22:15:42] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, I agree, you can't have just search, browsing is important too[22:15:45] * jstressman runs it from time to time as a fun challenge.[22:15:56] <PulkoMandy> but how do you create it if you can't run the ftp app standalone ? right click > new > FTP connexion ?[22:16:10] <PulkoMandy> same for browsing the web I guess, that would force you into using bookmarks[22:16:13] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: which is why it annoys me that the cool parts of visual browsing are becoming rarer and rarer in osx[22:16:16] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, yeah I guess, idk really[22:16:16] <dreamed> behaviours, at least[22:16:31] <PulkoMandy> but you'd likely have a "google" icon at the very least for that[22:16:38] <dreamed> PulkoMandy: that approach would also necessitate an absolutely enormous right click menu[22:16:45] <PulkoMandy> well[22:16:51] <dreamed> over time as you add apps[22:16:54] <PulkoMandy> not any bigger than the deskbar app menu[22:17:04] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, well, there certainly is more and more search in OS X, but there is a lot of browsing too... how has it been reduced?[22:17:19] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: the finder behaviours don't match what they used to[22:17:29] <dreamed> the windows you opened used to remember size, icon layout and position on screen[22:17:36] <dreamed> now they just function as a file browser[22:17:45] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, oh yeah, spacial finder is long gone[22:17:52] <dreamed> I understand why they've changed this in some respects[22:17:55] <Skipp_OSX> it was half-assed in 10.1[22:17:59] <dreamed> there were some nasty engineering issues associated with it[22:18:03] <dreamed> (.DS_Store)[22:18:04] <dreamed> for example[22:18:23] <dreamed> OSX had an appalling tendency to leave them all over any filesystem it touched[22:18:28] <dreamed> including network shares[22:18:50] <dreamed> and without resource forks, they couldn't include that information in the folder descriptors[22:18:50] <Skipp_OSX> yes, that is quite annoying[22:19:15] <stargater> i like Bookmark2App -> when a bookmark (url) to a App so i have i app icon (place eg: /home/WebApps) when i click on the icon then open this in a webview app without browser stuff[22:19:21] <PulkoMandy> Os X still feels a bit hacked over NextStep in some places :)[22:19:30] <dreamed> PulkoMandy: I can't argue with that[22:19:37] <dreamed> the column view in finder is an excellent example[22:19:41] <dreamed> occasionally it works well[22:19:47] <dreamed> most of the time you need to constantly resize things[22:21:07] <Skipp_OSX> Finder has certainly undergone serious changes since release[22:21:45] <dreamed> Finder peaked in tiger[22:21:52] <dreamed> and by peaked I mean, became usable[22:22:00] <dreamed> since then it's been on a downward trend imo[22:22:14] <Skipp_OSX> yeah, for me, that is what spotlight is for[22:22:15] <dreamed> the new scrollbar stuff in mountain lion is such a pain in it[22:22:25] <dreamed> spotlight wasn't good until leopard, so I guess that's fair[22:22:29] <Skipp_OSX> I haven't run ML yet, still on Lion[22:22:37] <dreamed> ML is a vast improvement over Lion[22:22:42] <Skipp_OSX> I've heard[22:22:43] <dreamed> but there's a couple of annoyances[22:22:54] <dreamed> one of which is that the horizonal scrollbar appears over the bottom of the window contents[22:22:59] <dreamed> so if you're trying to click on the last file in a list view[22:23:05] <dreamed> sometimes the scrollbar appears and gets in the way[22:23:07] <dreamed> so you have to pause[22:23:14] <stargater> PulkoMandy: have you a adroid phone ?[22:23:16] <Skipp_OSX> yeah, I can't say I agree with the disappearing scrollbar concept[22:23:25] <PulkoMandy> stargater: no[22:23:28] <dreamed> the disappearing scrollbar seems to work okay on the right hand side of the window[22:23:31] <dreamed> just not on the bottom[22:23:38] <jstressman> I loathe disappearing scrollbars.[22:23:41] <stargater> any one have a android phone ?[22:23:42] <dreamed> it even works well enough to use it like the old scrollbar[22:23:48] <jstressman> Ubuntu added something like that and I absolutely hate it.[22:23:56] <Skipp_OSX> even so, is there anybody in the world who was asking for disappearing scrollbars?[22:24:01] <jstressman> it makes it so that you don't have a set visual target to just aim for and click on.[22:24:05] <dreamed> you mean other than SJ?[22:24:07] <dreamed> probably not[22:24:09] <jstressman> I haven't used OSX with it, so I have no idea how it works there.[22:24:14] <dreamed> though to be fair, it makes iTunes much nicer to look at / work with[22:24:17] <jstressman> but in Ubuntu it's idiotic garbage. :)[22:24:19] <Skipp_OSX> I guess they are okay aside from the times when they're not[22:24:22] <dreamed> but it's really designed for trackpad use[22:24:24] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: they are making the same mistake as ubuntu[22:24:26] <dreamed> works well in that context[22:24:30] <PulkoMandy> trying to bend Mac OS X towards iOS[22:24:56] <dreamed> the parts of iOS that they're taking into OS X work fine[22:24:59] <PulkoMandy> in France, we used to have computers with lightpens in the 80s, instead of a mouse[22:25:03] <dreamed> though I never use the app launcher screen thing[22:25:08] <PulkoMandy> works very well for the first 20 minutes of use[22:25:10] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, well, in some ways that is okay, but, the scrollbars I just don't get[22:25:14] *** Negr0_VoP2P has quit IRC[22:25:15] <PulkoMandy> no need to learn handling a mouse[22:25:20] <jstressman> desktops should be desktops. touchpads can do stuff that fits that particular interface usage.[22:25:24] <PulkoMandy> but after that, your arm start to hurt[22:25:33] <Skipp_OSX> I understand why they are trying to change the document model for instance[22:25:33] <PulkoMandy> and touchscreen on desktop/laptops are just the same[22:25:36] <jstressman> but trying to make desktops act like touchscreen tablets etc is moronic to put it nicely.[22:25:40] <dreamed> PulkoMandy: that's my problem with people that suggest I use my iPad with a bluetooth keyboard[22:25:43] <dreamed> I'm like[22:25:44] <Skipp_OSX> get rid of saving, you don't need it, that makes sense[22:25:45] <dreamed> i still have to reach over and push on it[22:25:47] <dreamed> which sucks[22:25:50] <Skipp_OSX> especially with SSDs[22:25:59] <dreamed> SSD makes so many new things possible[22:26:02] <Skipp_OSX> versioning built-in, also good[22:26:03] <dreamed> the OS just flies[22:26:08] <dreamed> launching apps is instantaneous[22:26:11] <dreamed> etc[22:26:19] <dreamed> iCloud integration is a mixed bag[22:26:20] <Skipp_OSX> right, but more importantly saving is fast[22:26:25] <dreamed> some really nice stuff[22:26:29] <dreamed> yes saving is instant[22:26:30] <Skipp_OSX> so you don't have to save explicitly anymore[22:26:36] <Skipp_OSX> well that's the idea[22:26:47] <PulkoMandy> well[22:26:47] <Skipp_OSX> and with versioning, you can go back.[22:26:49] <dreamed> my photography library is on an ssd that's attached via thunderbolt[22:26:52] <dreamed> omg it's nice to work with[22:27:15] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: there were some attempts at that before. Ever heard of the Amstrad PcW16 ? :)[22:27:28] <stargater> PulkoMandy: i look into the dragger.cpp i see the KHand Icon, it is good to have a mouse_over funktion to make the dragger replicant icon biger?[22:27:32] <PulkoMandy> (well, only 1MB of flash memory back then)[22:27:33] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, no, but I think SSDs are what make the idea practical[22:27:37] *** Negr0_VoP2P has joined #haiku[22:28:08] <PulkoMandy> Skipp_OSX: on the other hand, I'm not sure I want that[22:28:18] <PulkoMandy> it needs some huge changes to the paradigm[22:28:25] <PulkoMandy> like saving all the undo steps as well[22:28:50] <dreamed> PulkoMandy: it uses block-level change description[22:28:54] <dreamed> doesn't take up much space[22:28:57] <dreamed> what's the problem?[22:29:03] <Skipp_OSX> if you think about it, saving is destructive[22:29:10] <PulkoMandy> problem is the UI actually[22:29:17] <PulkoMandy> it changes the way of working[22:29:19] <Skipp_OSX> you destroy what you have, and replace it with the new[22:29:21] <PulkoMandy> not that's a bad thing[22:29:29] <dreamed> PulkoMandy: as opposed to a document centric ui over apps? :P[22:29:30] <Skipp_OSX> that's a destructive action[22:29:44] <dreamed> in osx it's really easy to get to a previous version[22:29:47] <dreamed> say you have the document open[22:29:50] <dreamed> click the time machine icon[22:29:54] <dreamed> now you see all versions behind it[22:29:54] <Skipp_OSX> so, really saving can't be automatic, unless there is versioning[22:30:26] <PulkoMandy> dreamed: yes, but apps still use the "save" button[22:30:43] <PulkoMandy> how would that go if you save each and every small change to disk ?[22:30:46] <dreamed> PulkoMandy: no they don't[22:30:49] <Skipp_OSX> PulkoMandy, the idea is that they won't eventually[22:30:49] <dreamed> it saves automatically[22:30:57] <dreamed> the api allows for a save as button[22:31:06] <dreamed> which was named duplicate in lion[22:31:40] <dreamed> the idea is that there's no good reason from a user perspective, that they *should* ever have to click save[22:31:47] <dreamed> it's so incredibly unintuitive versus paper documents[22:31:50] <dreamed> you write on it, it's there[22:31:55] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, but there is still a save button for now[22:32:02] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: yes, there is[22:32:06] <dreamed> but as you say, that's the intent[22:32:27] <dreamed> here's an example of why it's so good[22:32:36] <dreamed> in my previous job, i was responsible for backup and restore ops[22:32:51] <dreamed> 90% of all restore requests were due to people not saving properly, or saving over something[22:33:09] <dreamed> so you save a huge amount of pain an anguish, by eliminating that uncertainty[22:33:21] <Skipp_OSX> anyway, the point is that I understand that part of what Apple is doing, makes sense, the scrollbars though, no good reason for that[22:33:31] *** diver has left #haiku[22:33:51] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: it's less cluttered looking, but I do think that it's more confusing than not[22:33:58] <dreamed> especially if you look at a window and it's partially scrolled[22:34:02] <dreamed> it's not obvious[22:34:05] <Skipp_OSX> right there is no feedback[22:34:26] <dreamed> Apple's solution is moving the mouse over the window briefly shows the scroll state[22:34:29] <dreamed> but that's still annoying[22:34:59] *** bbjimmy has quit IRC[22:35:14] <CIA-63> haiku.master: stpere * hrev44523 http://cgit.haiku-os.org/haiku/commit/?id=7ad72ef :[22:35:14] <CIA-63> PoseView: avoid duplication of poses[22:35:14] <CIA-63> When filtered, clear the FilteredPoseList before re-filling it.[22:35:14] <CIA-63> Fixes #8875.[22:35:54] *** diver has joined #haiku[22:37:49] *** stpere has joined #haiku[22:39:17] *** Negr0_VoP2P has quit IRC[22:42:37][22:43:04] * dreamed agrees[22:43:17] <dreamed> deskbar needs more work than tracker imo ;)[22:44:35] <jstressman> https://www.haiku-os.org/blog/stippi/2011-04-07_deskbar_rewrite[22:44:38] <jstressman> have you guys read that?[22:44:45] *** diver has quit IRC[22:45:10] <jstressman> I don't agree with everything he said (the app icon on dock for instance), but for the most part I LOVED that article... and the some of the ensuing comments cover my thoughts well enough.[22:45:20] *** diver has joined #haiku[22:45:23] <jstressman> I bookmarked that to reference for ideas when I do my next mockups.[22:45:56] <dreamed> oh that reminds me[22:46:11] <dreamed> I think lion's full screen application system is light years ahead of maximising a window[22:46:22] <dreamed> much easier to navigate to and dismiss[22:46:25] <dreamed> much less cluttered[22:46:34] <dreamed> you can still get the dock / switch to other apps seamlessly[22:46:44] <dreamed> I'd love to see something like that in haiku[22:47:12] <dreamed> interesting read[22:47:14] <dreamed> mostly agree[22:47:26] *** dcase has quit IRC[22:49:22] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, well, that is what we call "full-screen"[22:49:47] <Skipp_OSX> now on Lion it actually creates a virtual workspace though[22:50:24] <PulkoMandy> amiga screens anyone ?[22:50:36] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: it doesn't need to create a workspace, that's just for fancy effect[22:50:52] <dreamed> Skipp_OSX: what I'm saying is that I think it works well, and could be used as a model[22:50:58] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, well, it allows you to switch to the app and back[22:51:03] <dreamed> in terms of how you interact with the menu, dock and switching while full screen[22:51:41] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, well, you could hide Deskbar in full screen mode[22:51:47] <Skipp_OSX> autohide it I mean[22:51:55] *** diver has quit IRC[22:52:13] *** nyl has quit IRC[22:52:13] <Skipp_OSX> and then have Deskbar come up when you mouse to the corner to switch apps[22:52:37] *** diver has joined #haiku[22:52:38] * dreamed nods[22:52:41] <dreamed> agree[22:52:55] <dreamed> PulkoMandy: not familiar[22:53:02] <Skipp_OSX> jstressman, anyway I read that post a while back, I think I commented on the list about it.[22:53:20] <Skipp_OSX> basically, Deskbar doesn't need a rewrite, incremental improvement is all it needs[22:53:41] * dreamed concurs[22:56:22] <Skipp_OSX> and I've discussed several other features[22:56:50] <Skipp_OSX> for instance clicking on an app icon should cycle through the windows instead of bringing up a submenu[22:57:37] <Skipp_OSX> Deskbar having just big icons rather than small icons + labels is already possible... :)[22:58:10] <dreamed> cycle through or bring all to front[22:58:27] <Skipp_OSX> dreamed, cycle through because of workspaces[22:58:39] <dreamed> fair[22:59:07] <PulkoMandy> well[22:59:28] <PulkoMandy> if your workspaces have different video modes it could move the mouse away from deskbar when switching[22:59:48] <PulkoMandy> but that's another problem[23:00:02] <Skipp_OSX> I don't like that workspaces can have different resolutions either...[23:00:10] <Skipp_OSX> but, that is a whole other deal[23:00:15] <PulkoMandy> they can[23:00:19] <Skipp_OSX> I know they can[23:00:39] <dreamed> it's a bit odd[23:00:44] <Skipp_OSX> I just don't understand why... it doesn't make sense on LCDs[23:00:45] <PulkoMandy> it was useful back in Be days to have one in 32bits and one in 256 colors or so[23:00:46] <dreamed> it made sense for working with broadcast video[23:00:51] <dreamed> but it doesn't make much sense now imo[23:01:10] <PulkoMandy> but yes, not that much useful anymore[23:01:16] <Skipp_OSX> well you could still have that, Deskbar wouldn't move in that case[23:01:37] <PulkoMandy> depends[23:01:46] <PulkoMandy> if you put it on the bottom[23:01:57] <PulkoMandy> I on't know how the mouse behave when resolution changes[23:02:09] *** sarcas has joined #haiku[23:02:14] <PulkoMandy> I think it keeps the same pixel coordinates ? or is it scaled to the new res ?[23:02:25] <Skipp_OSX> oh idk[23:02:37] <Skipp_OSX> anyway, get rid of that feature because it is dumb, and then continue on[23:02:41] <Skipp_OSX> :)[23:03:48] * dreamed concurs[23:05:16] <Skipp_OSX> nothing that stippi wrote requires a rewrite IMHO, and Full-screen mode mitigates a lot of problems[23:05:53] <CIA-63> HaikuPorts: augiedoggie * r2018 /haikuports/trunk/haiku-apps/beam/beam-1.2alpha.bep http://ports.haiku-files.org/changeset/2018 : Change the repository url for beam-1.2alpha since it has migrated to git[23:08:03] <dreamed> yeah[23:09:31] *** PulkoMandy has quit IRC[23:12:24] *** kcj has joined #haiku[23:14:50] *** BitPuffin has joined #haiku[23:17:08] *** happy4crazy has quit IRC[23:17:43] *** happy4crazy has joined #haiku[23:21:53] *** happy4crazy has quit IRC[23:26:33] *** AlienSoldier has quit IRC[23:28:44] *** AlienSoldier has joined #haiku[23:42:17] *** Spacewalker has quit IRC[23:50:19] *** rdmr has quit IRC[23:52:08] *** Blub\w has quit IRC[23:52:48] <DHowett> So, I'm pretty sure that something about the USB devices in newer apple laptops causes the kernel to explode.[23:53:06] <DHowett> Touch the trackpad/internal keyboard just outside the bootloader and it panics[23:53:25] <DHowett> normally, it panics so hard that it won't even display the backtrace. I managed to get one though[23:54:11] <dreamed> *wince*[23:54:49] <DHowett> hmm? apple laptops? ;)[23:55:44] <dreamed> no, I'm a fan of those :P[23:55:51] <DHowett> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3157793/Photo%20Aug%2012%2C%202%2039%2005%20PM.jpg[23:55:58] <DHowett> which of the things is winceful?[23:56:39] <dreamed> the kernel packing[23:57:42] <dreamed> er[23:57:44] <dreamed> panicking[23:57:52] <DHowett> always painful :(