[00:00:00] <JonathanThompson> A PC is general purpose for software.
[00:00:00] <Technix> a pc is simply a machine meant for PERSONAL COMPUTING
[00:00:02] <umccullough> a PC is a tool
[00:00:28] <Monni> Mac is a tool, PC is a toy ;)
[00:00:29] <umccullough> or in my house, a PC is a doorstop
[00:00:32] <JonathanThompson> All computers are tools: some are dedicated to very limited purposes that aren't modifiable (readily) by standard users.
[00:00:36] <Technix> it is not meant to personalize, despite the fact that people do. it is meant for people to have computing power in the home/office, instead of using network/mainframe resources at a major corporation
[00:00:46] <Technix> that was the original meaning of PC, anyhow
[00:00:55] <Thom_Holwerda> a PC is meant to be whatever its owner wants i to be
[00:01:00] <Thom_Holwerda> it*
[00:01:05] <ari-free> all pc's from the beginning you can open up and expand with various cards
[00:01:10] <umccullough> I have a couple PCs that participate as chairs
[00:01:19] * JonathanThompson thinks these days PC stands more for "Politically correct" which is another word for labeling things that'll have a language change in a few years anyway
[00:01:23] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: my point exactly.
[00:01:31] <ari-free> stick a tv tuner or another network card or anything
[00:01:43] <umccullough> that's what USB is for :)
[00:01:44] <Monni> PC means Police Constable ;)
[00:01:50] <ari-free> usb slow
[00:01:51] <JonathanThompson> You can add a TV tuner via USB 2.0, no big deal.
[00:01:58] <Monni> "you can't do this, you can't do that" ;)
[00:02:01] <andreasf> PC Macintosh ;-)
[00:02:03] * JonathanThompson considers ari-free must be on drugs
[00:02:13] <JonathanThompson> USB 2.0 is fast enough for TV.
[00:02:23] <umccullough> usb2 is fast enough for HDs
[00:02:51] <Monni> USB is passive bus... it's speed is irrelevant
[00:02:57] <Technix> usb2 is fast enough for most anything
[00:02:58] <JonathanThompson> Not completely, Monni.
[00:03:13] <umccullough> in fact, you can build a computer where pretty much all peripherals are basically usb devices
[00:03:17] <Technix> (at this point in time, 2008, let me clarify)
[00:03:23] <Technix> umccullough: too true
[00:03:30] <Thom_Holwerda> yup, even display
[00:03:31] <Technix> my two main 500GB drives are both USB
[00:03:31] <Monni> JonathanThompson: : Well.. if computer is too slow to read the data, device can't send any faster...
[00:03:53] <JonathanThompson> That's not been a real problem for many years in practice, Monni, with USB2.
[00:04:13] <JonathanThompson> That'd be true of ISA as well, via PIO.
[00:04:28] <umccullough> ISA is slow :)
[00:04:29] <Monni> JonathanThompson: Well... All my computers have USB2, and all have slowdowns in USB transmission
[00:04:36] <JonathanThompson> Even PCI via PIO ;)
[00:04:49] <Thom_Holwerda> i dont even have usb2.0 in my desktop x86
[00:04:55] <ari-free> but what happens when you add all kinds of usb devices outside the computer? the system is a lot bulkier
[00:04:59] <JonathanThompson> Transferring to/from what, Monni?
[00:05:20] <JonathanThompson> ari-free, there's no such thing as a free lunch: the bulk goes somewhere.
[00:05:21] <umccullough> ari-free, and then you get an imac where it's all (including display) built into a single box
[00:05:23] <Monni> JonathanThompson: Thing is that on most motherboards single chip handles all I/O and it can only do one thing at a time... same chip for VGA, Network, Sound, USB etc...
[00:05:31] <umccullough> because you don't like expandability and shit hanging all over the place
[00:05:39] <JonathanThompson> A general purpose computer that doesn't add all the stuff just wastes space and power that will never be used.
[00:06:08] <umccullough> i consider a full tower PC to be quite bulky, personally
[00:06:11] <ari-free> I don't want the display built in. less room to add stuff and I like the monitor I have
[00:06:33] <JonathanThompson> As I mentioned in the post: you aren't forced to look at the built-in monitor ;)
[00:06:34] <Monni> JonathanThompson: On 1.8 GHz machine, if I move my mouse fast enough, I can stop all other I/O on my computer... including sound, hard disk, network connection...
[00:06:41] <ari-free> I just put the cpu in the cabinet
[00:06:43] <umccullough> you clearly have a specific expectation of what a computer must be - and you'll just have to accept that not everyone believes the same as you
[00:06:54] <Technix> ari-free: the choice is yours with how you want to configure your workspace. iMac is just one particular choice in the market. Thank god we HAVE choices. You can choose a regular desktop and stick USB Devices onto it, or you can chooise a Laptop, and do the same, or an iMac, and do the same.
[00:07:11] * Technix agrees entirely with umccullough
[00:07:15] * JonathanThompson suspects Monni is full of it again, or he's got a crappy system setup
[00:07:25] <Technix> he likely has an underpowered setup
[00:07:27] <ari-free> yes we have choices and the imac is not my choice
[00:07:28] <Technix> (Monni)
[00:07:36] <Technix> ari-free: so quit complaining about it and move on
[00:07:44] <ari-free> if the imac was the only choice i'd be very upset
[00:07:50] <Technix> well its not. :)
[00:07:53] <JonathanThompson> It isn't: shut up already!
[00:08:01] <Thom_Holwerda> ari-free: yea id be upset too if bricks were my only choice of food
[00:08:03] <Thom_Holwerda> luckily
[00:08:05] <Thom_Holwerda> IT ISNT.
[00:08:33] <ari-free> lol
[00:09:01] * ari-free goes back to tomshardware.com
[00:10:04] <JonathanThompson> I personally think Apple's current hardware lineup makes great sense from a choice for purpose/number of models point of view.
[00:10:19] <umccullough> ari-free, i don't want an imac either...does that make you happy?
[00:10:28] <umccullough> actually, i take that back
[00:10:29] <Monni> it's not about being underpowered, it's design with most modern motherboards, starting from P5... most components run slower than main CPU...
[00:10:38] <umccullough> i'd love to have an imac if someone gave me one for free :)
[00:10:47] <JonathanThompson> Definitely from the point of business sense: they don't cater to the wackos that want the most esoteric hardware configuration, which would be overly expensive for them to deal with, and add more confusing model names to their lineup.
[00:11:26] <ari-free> all i want is a cheaper powermac :)
[00:11:29] <andreasf> JonathanThompson: as a PowerMac user I disagree; Apple are pushing the Mac Pro much more into the professional corner and leaving all other models less configurable
[00:11:34] <JonathanThompson> Buy one used, ari-free :D
[00:11:44] <Technix> http://craigslist.org
[00:11:47] <Technix> hit it, ari-free
[00:11:55] <Technix> before I hit you. :P
[00:12:19] <ari-free> I don't want a used mac
[00:12:24] <Technix> omg
[00:12:25] <umccullough> UGH
[00:12:26] <ari-free> or any used anything
[00:12:27] <JonathanThompson> ell, andreasf, I ask you this: how much differentiation in terms of expandability does the general public (not those that use Mac Pros) need?
[00:12:39] <JonathanThompson> ell=well
[00:12:40] * umccullough wonders why he's even participating in this discussion
[00:12:42] <Technix> ok, I'll bite.. what do you want, ari-free ?
[00:12:53] <JonathanThompson> He wants what can't be bought yet ;)
[00:12:54] <Technix> JonathanThompson: not much at all
[00:13:01] <JonathanThompson> (If you can buy it, it's already obsolete)
[00:13:03] <umccullough> he wants a genesi EFIKA-based PC of course
[00:13:06] <ari-free> freedom to configure
[00:13:18] <ari-free> open source
[00:13:23] <umccullough> or a Pegasos
[00:13:30] <Technix> ari-free: so then stick to building your own general PC (x86/AMD, whatever) and quit complaining
[00:13:40] <umccullough> go get one, be happy, stop whining
[00:13:44] <Technix> Apple will NEVER, EVER get into the same kind of PC market as you and I both know
[00:13:46] <Thom_Holwerda> dude
[00:13:48] <Thom_Holwerda> http://www.duensser.com/pict/x68000xvihd8.jpg
[00:13:54] <Thom_Holwerda> now THATs a nice looking machine
[00:14:06] <Thom_Holwerda> never heard of the sharp x68000
[00:14:12] <Technix> wow, that's not bad Thom_Holwerda
[00:14:25] <ari-free> that's why i am here and not some apple room
[00:14:32] <Technix> reminds me of a cross between HAL 9000 and a BeBox
[00:14:33] <Technix> weirdly
[00:14:43] <JonathanThompson> A BeBox 9000?
[00:14:45] <umccullough> interesting choice to have a split between the two sides
[00:14:54] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: yeah
[00:14:55] <ari-free> haiku should run on any pc. linux. even windows is more free
[00:14:56] <Technix> ari-free: no, you're here because you know you can rant and rave and we won't mind too much
[00:15:03] <Technix> but enough is enough. Grow up
[00:15:04] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, i bet it collects dustbunnies :)
[00:15:10] <andreasf> with a PC I can just open the case and exchange the harddrive, with everything non-MacPro/Xserve I can't... they tend to give up after three years for me, and I don't want to have my main HD as USB/Firewire then
[00:15:15] <Thom_Holwerda> it uses motorola cpus, and was sold between 1987 and 1993
[00:15:23] <Thom_Holwerda> gaming, mostly.
[00:15:35] <Thom_Holwerda> had an OS with dos-like command syntax
[00:15:52] <Technix> this was made entirely by Sharp?
[00:16:01] <Thom_Holwerda> i guess so
[00:16:12] <Technix> neat, never knew they got into pc making
[00:16:14] <Thom_Holwerda> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_X68000
[00:16:19] <Thom_Holwerda> japan only
[00:17:29] <{V}> awww.. they get all the good stuff
[00:17:48] <umccullough> someone should build a look-a-like box ;)
[00:17:49] <Thom_Holwerda> god what an insanely cool device
[00:18:11] <Thom_Holwerda> god it sucks being (relatively) poor
[00:18:19] <Technix> stop using Steve Job's terminology! :) :)
[00:18:34] <Thom_Holwerda> ...?
[00:18:39] <Technix> insanely cool
[00:18:51] <Thom_Holwerda> is that from His Steveness?
[00:18:55] <Technix> well, close enough
[00:19:14] <Technix> There was a phrase he used early on in Apple histor, that had the word Insane in it
[00:19:22] <Thom_Holwerda> yeah well
[00:19:23] <Monni> lol
[00:19:24] <Technix> hmm.. I forget now, all of a sudden.. dammn
[00:19:34] <Technix> Insanely Great?
[00:19:41] <Thom_Holwerda> yeah but hum
[00:19:42] <Thom_Holwerda> uhm
[00:19:45] <Thom_Holwerda> nevermind.
[00:19:50] <Technix> oh jeez.. way to go, start a topic and forget..
[00:19:52] * Technix pats himself
[00:20:01] <Technix> shh JonathanThompson, it's platonic
[00:20:09] <EuanK> night all
[00:20:11] * JonathanThompson relaxes
[00:20:13] <Technix> nite EuanK
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[00:20:29] <JonathanThompson> Besides, you were also fixed, Technix, so not much will come of any advances you make ;)
[00:20:47] <Technix> wow.
[00:20:53] <Technix> die. in a fire.
[00:20:58] *** EuanK has left #haiku
[00:21:07] <JonathanThompson> >
[00:21:10] <JonathanThompson> ?
[00:21:11] <Technix> heh
[00:21:19] *** wtracy has quit IRC
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[00:22:31] <Technix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_X68000
[00:22:53] <Technix> dang, NetBSD was ported to it!
[00:22:59] <Technix> that would be a very cool pc
[00:25:07] <{V}> wasn't netbsd ported to just about everything?
[00:25:48] <Technix> yeah.. lol
[00:26:17] <ari-free> thats the whole point of netbsd :)
[00:26:25] <DHowett> netbsd has a point/ wow ;)
[00:26:28] * JonathanThompson awaits mention of netbsd being ported to the iPhone
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[00:27:07] <Technix> hahaha, lmao DHowett
[00:27:56] *** DHowett is now known as Away[DHowett]
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[00:29:08] * JonathanThompson suspects Monni has his low-speed mouse on the same USB 2.0 bus his high-speed devices are on
[00:30:54] <Monni> JonathanThompson: It's a PS/2 mouse ;)
[00:34:33] <aroman> Hmm... so Haiku uses OpenBFS. Is that compatible with BFS? In other words, can I mount my Haiku partition from Linux (which afaik supports BFS)?
[00:34:53] <JonathanThompson> You *should* be able to.
[00:35:12] <aroman> well... ubuntu says:
[00:35:13] <aroman>  BFS-fs: bfs_fill_super(): No BFS filesystem on sdb5 (magic=070e1f0e)
[00:35:22] <aroman> when I did sudo mount /dev/sdb5 /mnt/haiku0 -t bfs
[00:35:33] <aroman> and I put haiku there with jam -q
[00:35:42] <aroman> oh
[00:35:43] <aroman> :P
[00:35:46] <aroman> thanks Monni
[00:35:47] <aroman> that worked
[00:35:53] <Monni> hehe
[00:35:59] <JonathanThompson> It's all a naming issue ;)
[00:36:50] <Monni> stupid names ;)
[00:36:54] <aroman> so, now I should be able to update my installation from linux, without overwriting my settings?
[00:37:15] <JonathanThompson> Settings?
[00:37:20] <JonathanThompson> As created by preferences?
[00:37:46] <aroman> yes
[00:37:47] <CIA-50> bonefish * r24948 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/fs/socket.cpp:
[00:37:47] <CIA-50> The syscalls that were returning an address always copied back the full
[00:37:47] <CIA-50> address back to userland, even if the provided buffer was smaller. Fixes
[00:37:47] <CIA-50> a problem with Firefox, which is for some reason providing a buffer
[00:37:47] <CIA-50> smaller than our sockaddr_in.
[00:38:15] <aroman> or any files I have in my home directory (say, a copy of the haiku tree :P)
[00:38:19] <JonathanThompson> I'd suggest you backup your preferences files before you update: I don't know if the image will overwrite them or not.
[00:39:24] <aroman> well, the linux driver is r/w, so technically it should be possible to simply copy the newly built binaries over to the mounted partition, right?
[00:41:21] <JonathanThompson> What have you got to lose by trying it? :)
[00:42:04] <aroman> hmm.. looks like the befs driver is NOT rw... though the partition was mounted rw
[00:42:11] <aroman> alex@optiplex:/mnt/haiku0/home$ sudo touch test
[00:42:12] <aroman> touch: cannot touch `test': No such file or directory
[00:42:20] <aroman> :(
[00:42:22] <aroman> ah well
[00:42:41] <JonathanThompson> I'm not certain if the Linux filesystem layer fully supports all the attribute options of BeFS.
[00:42:52] <Technix> it likely does not
[00:42:58] <aroman> [10480.750335] BeFS(sdb5): No write support. Marking filesystem read-only
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[00:48:12] <ToxicSoul> I wish there was write support, getting this to compile from solaris still hasn't happened for me, and all I need is for dma to be turned off =(
[00:48:42] <aroman> dma to be turned off? why?
[00:49:32] <ToxicSoul> freezes on boot at the little disc icon and thats the only thing I could find in reference to that issue =\
[00:50:18] <aroman> this is Haiku? or BeOS?
[00:50:23] <ToxicSoul> Haiku
[00:50:30] <aroman> and you built haiku yourself?
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[00:50:43] <ToxicSoul> I haven't been able to yet on solaris
[00:50:49] <aroman> ah I see
[00:50:57] <ToxicSoul> or it would be a simple change and recompile
[00:51:07] <aroman> yeah, that's what I was thinking...
[00:52:32] <aroman> one interesting problem I've had related to DMA... I had a drive enclosure (rack) whose cable was bad. Under linux it was fine. Under FreeBSD it was giving read/write errors. Turns out FreeBSD actually enables and uses the highest DMA setting available, whereas linux somehow does not
[00:53:52] <ToxicSoul> although.. I am having issues with a centos domain.
[00:54:44] <duaneb> who's a fan of git here?
[00:54:45] <ToxicSoul> that installed fine but is dieing at this disk part =\
[00:55:08] <ToxicSoul> but other domains work fine *sigh*
[00:55:37] <aroman> duaneb: I've heard good things about it...
[00:56:01] <Technix> you should be able to turn off DMA in your BIOS, no?
[00:56:04] <Technix> ToxicSoul: ?
[00:56:18] <ToxicSoul> booting it with xVM
[00:56:19] <duaneb> well the current head is here: http://rapidshare.de/files/39110873/haiku.git.tgz.html
[00:56:27] <CIA-50> bonefish * r24949 /haiku/trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs):
[00:56:27] <CIA-50> * Removed SyscallRestartWrapper comparison operators. They are not
[00:56:27] <CIA-50>  needed, since we've got a cast operator.
[00:56:27] <CIA-50> * Reverted r24927-r24929. There's no potential ambiguity anymore.
[00:57:32] <duaneb> figures
[00:57:49] * JonathanThompson is sure with what Technix does at his job, that he's truly the master of his own domain ;)
[01:01:24] <{V}> probably not
[01:01:29] <{V}> oops
[01:01:38] <{V}> nevermind
[01:01:55] <Technix> jt, multi-tasking 4tw?
[01:02:14] <JonathanThompson> Uh, sure :D
[01:02:28] <umccullough> ah, haiku fix for firefox :)
[01:02:39] * JonathanThompson wonders if Technix knows the origin of the reference
[01:02:55] <Technix> 42!
[01:03:00] <JonathanThompson> Nope :)
[01:03:04] <ari-free> hehe
[01:03:10] * umccullough masters his own domain too
[01:03:20] <{V}> sorry what was the question? :)
[01:03:40] <JonathanThompson> Read your back buffer :)
[01:04:01] <{V}> :D
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[01:04:12] <Technix> what ,patting myself?
[01:04:23] <ari-free> is this about eunuchs again?
[01:04:26] * JonathanThompson whistles innocently
[01:04:52] * JonathanThompson suspects ari-free is feeling very uncomfortable
[01:05:08] <Technix> well, he cannot customize them like he'd want.. so
[01:05:25] <JonathanThompson> Wow, talk about a weird cross of topics, Technix ;)
[01:05:38] <Technix> Thank you, thank you very much
[01:05:44] <ari-free> wow i really must've hit a nerve
[01:05:59] <Technix> like how it all *comes* together?
[01:06:14] <JonathanThompson> We're full of nerve, ari-free, hadn't you figured that out a long time ago?
[01:06:30] * Technix is full of nerve gas, actually.
[01:06:36] <ari-free> today must be gang up on ari-free day :)
[01:06:40] * JonathanThompson pokes Technix with a steel pin
[01:06:49] * JonathanThompson keels over
[01:06:50] <Technix> mm
[01:07:03] <{V}> goodnight everyone (whenever that is for you)
[01:07:09] *** {V} is now known as {Vzzz}
[01:07:28] * JonathanThompson watches Technix fly around the room, going "PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFGGTTFTFTFTF!" and bouncing off the walls
[01:07:31] <Technix> isn't that the sound ari-free makes when he's disappointed?
[01:07:42] <Technix> Vzzz
[01:07:57] <JonathanThompson> Probably the noise when he opens his mouth to complain about computers he claims are toys ;)
[01:08:02] <Technix> oh my
[01:08:08] *** Megaf_ is now known as _Megaf
[01:08:28] * JonathanThompson notes it's ari-free that decided it was the day to gang up on him
[01:08:55] <Technix> I just wonder what he's free of all this time
[01:08:56] <JonathanThompson> I wasn't committed to ganging up on anyone, but now that you've asked nicely, ari-free, how can I turn you down???
[01:09:08] <Technix> like a pillow, you would turn him down?
[01:09:24] <JonathanThompson> Nah: he's not my type!
[01:09:33] <Technix> what, he's cashmere?
[01:09:52] <JonathanThompson> Nah, his gender is all screwed-up!
[01:09:58] * Technix would rather be a blanket than a pillow, actually
[01:10:13] <JonathanThompson> Just think how many women you could get into bed with that way, Technix :D
[01:10:31] <Technix> Your sister might consider that sex change after all. :P
[01:10:35] <andreasf> good night, guys
[01:10:50] *** andreasf has quit IRC
[01:10:59] <JonathanThompson> Funny, there was no indication previously about it being considered ;)
[01:11:18] <Technix> Well, when she found out you were lusting after her, she decided to stay a man.
[01:11:32] <JonathanThompson> Wow, that's news to me!
[01:11:41] * JonathanThompson didn't realize he was an identical twin
[01:11:53] <ari-free> so i assume everyone knows the reference by now
[01:12:07] <JonathanThompson> That's a dangerous assumption, ari-free.
[01:12:47] <ari-free> I like to live dangerously
[01:13:17] <JonathanThompson> Then you're in the right place: a channel dedicated to the creation of an OS that's still pre-alpha, and all that entails of entrails of data ;)
[01:14:29] <geist> stupid state of california
[01:14:34] <geist> taking a bunch of cash outta my hide
[01:14:50] <ari-free> and a channel dedicated to seinfeld references
[01:14:51] <JonathanThompson> You know they've got better uses for it than you do ;)
[01:16:20] <umccullough> geist, taxes?
[01:17:36] <umccullough> wow, today is already april 13th?
[01:17:46] <Technix> is that a special day in the US?
[01:17:55] <umccullough> geist, did you get a chance to swing by LUGRadio?
[01:18:08] <ari-free> well soon is tax day
[01:18:08] <umccullough> Technix, april 14th is Tax Day :)
[01:18:12] <umccullough> usually
[01:18:14] <Technix> oh
[01:18:27] <ari-free> not a happy holiday
[01:18:30] <JonathanThompson> You mean when you go it, umccullough?
[01:18:49] <ari-free> no special hallmark cards
[01:19:33] <umccullough> april 15th
[01:19:34] * JonathanThompson creates a new one, "May your IRS tax audit go well!"
[01:19:42] <umccullough> why did i think the 14th
[01:19:54] <JonathanThompson> Off By One error hits in an unexpected manner ;)
[01:19:57] <umccullough> yeah
[01:20:05] <leavengood> well Google upped our *potential* GSoC slots from 4 to 5
[01:20:06] <Technix> Three things are certain:
[01:20:06] <Technix> Death, taxes, and lost data.
[01:20:07] <Technix> Guess which has occurred.
[01:20:29] <umccullough> death?
[01:20:29] <JonathanThompson> deeth, taxes, and lost data.
[01:20:37] <leavengood> heh, is that a netpositive haiku?
[01:20:44] <JonathanThompson> (Darn scrambled bits!)
[01:20:45] <Technix> http://haikunews.org/resources/haikus/haikus.txt
[01:20:49] <umccullough> no, that's actually a famous quote gone wrong :)
[01:21:12] <umccullough> i've seen it... probably on that very page
[01:21:28] <Technix> that's the page used for the random haiku on hnn
[01:21:49] * JonathanThompson wonders what will be on his tombstone
[01:21:55] <Technix> dust?
[01:22:01] <JonathanThompson> Too windy.
[01:23:15] <umccullough> http://aliciachenaux.blogspot.com/2008/03/3-things-are-certain-death-taxes-and-me.html
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[01:24:16] <umccullough> mmadia, did you happen to see Ingo's note about firefox and why it was failing on haiku?
[01:25:16] <mmadia> nope.
[01:25:47] <umccullough> http://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/haiku-commits/2008-April/012908.html
[01:25:48] <mmadia> affeine low + sick nephew doesn't mesh well
[01:25:49] <leavengood> umccullough: that is pretty disturbing
[01:25:57] <mmadia> ... a caffeine*
[01:26:13] <umccullough> leavengood, yeah, was pretty random :P
[01:26:19] <umccullough> just came up in a google search
[01:26:42] <leavengood> hehe
[01:26:52] <ari-free> oh I thought you were talking about the firefox crash
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[01:27:09] <leavengood> ari-free: nah screw FF
[01:27:19] <ari-free> thats why i was puzzled :)
[01:27:34] <leavengood> also I use an iMac at work
[01:27:47] <ari-free> oh stop it :)
[01:28:04] <leavengood> sometimes it runs really shitty though, but I'm not sure if that is the hardware or the large piece of shit known as Leopard
[01:28:34] <leavengood> or the other piece of shit Firefox sucking billions of bits of memory
[01:28:53] <umccullough> FF3! :)
[01:28:58] <leavengood> heh
[01:29:01] <ari-free> you're not using firefox 3 beta 5?
[01:29:03] <umccullough> i actually haven't really messed with it yet
[01:29:11] <umccullough> still using FF2 mostly
[01:29:16] <ari-free> k gotta cya
[01:29:28] <leavengood> ari-free: I know you want to have it's babies, but I'll wait til it is released
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[01:29:48] <umccullough> actually, he pretty down on firefox earlier
[01:30:02] <umccullough> *was*
[01:30:25] <leavengood> well he was talking about all the cool FF3 features when I was talking about the browser I want to make for Haiku with WebKit
[01:30:31] <leavengood> last week
[01:30:44] <umccullough> oh, yeah :)
[01:30:47] <umccullough> funny
[01:30:58] <leavengood> but it is cool, I will probably like FF3 when I start using it
[01:31:08] <leavengood> until I see how it still sucks memory
[01:31:28] <umccullough> i'm guessing it will be pretty reasonable
[01:31:56] <umccullough> i mean, as long as it doesn't go grabbing up a gigabyte of memory or something :P
[01:32:01] <leavengood> it just would be nice if I could leave it running for a while without 300MB being tied up and never getting freed
[01:32:12] <leavengood> even if I close all tabs
[01:32:28] <leavengood> sure it will cache stuff for a bit in case I reopen one of those sites
[01:32:35] <leavengood> but seriously, after a while, free some shit
[01:32:54] <umccullough> yeah, looks like that's mostly fixed in FF3 supposedly
[01:32:56] <mmadia> umccullough yeah, i've no idea where or why that 28 byte size buffer would come from.
[01:33:18] <umccullough> mmadia, well, at least it should work again :)
[01:33:53] <leavengood> so I'm thinking Thom_Holwerda would go nuts if someone made a cube-shaped Haiku computer
[01:34:07] <leavengood> actually it might be pretty neat
[01:34:09] <leavengood> heh
[01:34:16] * mmadia throws a cardboard box over his pc.
[01:34:25] <mmadia> wha-la!
[01:34:46] <leavengood> LOL
[01:34:57] <umccullough> yeah, he does seem to have a fetish for cube-styled machines :)
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[01:35:41] <leavengood> one could probably be thrown together with a nanoITX board
[01:36:02] <leavengood> maybe bend some aluminum and plexiglass for the case
[01:36:13] <umccullough> i was just thinking I could probably fit a nano-itx machine into a small wireless router case
[01:36:32] <leavengood> get the Haiku logo printed on vinyl at a print shop, slap it on the case
[01:36:35] <leavengood> ta da
[01:36:46] <umccullough> and call it Haicube
[01:36:51] <leavengood> ;)
[01:36:53] <leavengood> indeed
[01:36:54] <umccullough> oh wait... someone already has that name :)
[01:37:04] <leavengood> Haikube
[01:37:04] <umccullough> haven't seen him around much though
[01:37:05] <leavengood> fixed
[01:37:11] <umccullough> HaikuBe
[01:37:18] <leavengood> LOL
[01:37:21] <leavengood> good point
[01:37:24] <Technix> HaiKube
[01:37:30] <leavengood> wow, someone register that domain name
[01:37:39] <Technix> what, haikube.com ?
[01:37:50] <umccullough> already done
[01:37:52] <leavengood> already taken
[01:37:53] <leavengood> hehe
[01:37:59] <leavengood> WTF is that
[01:38:01] <Technix> how about haikube.org and .ca ?
[01:38:16] <umccullough> .org already done also
[01:38:28] <umccullough> .ca looks free
[01:42:02] <MichaelHenry> leavengood: will the webkit be able to run on r5/dano/zeta?
[01:42:28] <umccullough> mabye if he ever decides to try and compile it for gcc2 ;)
[01:42:41] <MichaelHenry> ???
[01:42:53] <Technix> short answer, no
[01:42:55] <umccullough> right now it only compiles on gcc4
[01:43:07] <umccullough> which will not be able to support anything prior to haiku
[01:43:42] <Technix> Eventually, we are going to have to break entirely from BeOS/Dan0/Zeta
[01:43:43] <MichaelHenry> ok, i thought haiku couldn't use gcc4
[01:43:54] <umccullough> haiku can be built with gcc4
[01:44:07] <umccullough> there's just no native gcc4 compiler for haiku yet
[01:44:45] <MichaelHenry> i thought to keep binary compatiblity, gcc2.9xxx was used
[01:46:02] <[Katisu]> with BeOS, yes
[01:46:21] <MichaelHenry> Technix: I understand and agree, but Haiku is still in pre-Alpha. When it goes to beta or final then people SHOULD break away.
[01:46:26] <umccullough> exactly
[01:46:27] <umccullough> so, a gcc4 version of Haiku is currently unable to run R5 stuff
[01:46:28] <umccullough> that may change in the future if they create a runtime loader smart enough to load gcc2-based libraries as neede
[01:46:28] <umccullough> needed
[01:46:29] <umccullough> R5 binary compatibility is not a requirement for Haiku to run
[01:46:30] <umccullough> it's just a milestone for R1
[01:46:53] <umccullough> the "break-away" period will likely occur post-R1
[01:46:54] <aroman> after R1, there will be no(t much) need for binary compatibility, right?
[01:47:07] <Technix> right
[01:47:12] <MichaelHenry> right
[01:47:13] <umccullough> aroman, right - basically at that point, R2 will end up being a fork
[01:47:22] <duaneb> haiku = poetry
[01:47:25] <Technix> for developers, it'll basically be a re-compile, which should be quick
[01:47:30] <umccullough> i'm sure R1 will be enhanced and maintained
[01:47:44] <duaneb> plus Be, the present indicative of 'to be'.
[01:47:47] <duaneb> deep.
[01:48:04] <Technix> duaneb: you're new aren't you. :P
[01:48:14] <MichaelHenry> I only hope that someone will create a preference container like zeta
[01:48:15] <umccullough> :)
[01:48:16] <aroman> the only thing is that we need enough apps to be recompiled with gcc4 and I'm not sure how many of the apps currently used are open source...
[01:48:20] <duaneb> Technix, relatively.
[01:48:27] <duaneb> Technix, what gave it away?
[01:48:40] <Technix> Let's just say, I've been around a while?
[01:48:58] <umccullough> aroman, either that or a smart system that can run both gcc2 and gcc4 binaries
[01:49:20] <umccullough> which has been discussed at some length on the mailing list in the past
[01:49:26] <duaneb> Technix, I was simply remarking on why one would register HaikuBe.whatever
[01:49:37] <Technix> the general consensus is a wait-and-see attitude.
[01:49:39] <MichaelHenry> any howto or explanition on the web
[01:49:50] <Technix> duaneb: yeah, I know
[01:49:59] <aroman> umccullough: right... I think linux can do that right now... afaik, they use "older" versions of the runtime libraries (copies)
[01:49:59] <MichaelHenry> about why the major differences between gcc2 an4
[01:50:18] <umccullough> MichaelHenry, it's an ABI incompatibility for C++ apps
[01:50:20] <aroman> but the kernel ABI would need to be the same
[01:50:21] <duaneb> from what I heard yesterday or on friday, there are naming conflicts
[01:50:42] <umccullough> the name mangling has changed so the symbols don't match
[01:50:55] <umccullough> just look up name mangling on wikipedia
[01:51:22] <aroman> has the calling convention changed at all?
[01:51:51] <MichaelHenry> Well, I am glad there are people smarter than me developing this
[01:51:56] <umccullough> the change actually occurred in gcc3
[01:52:22] <umccullough> so, here's the catch
[01:52:48] <umccullough> software written in C can theoretically be compiled in gcc4 and run on systems compiled with gcc2 without issue :)
[01:52:49] <umccullough> just not C++
[01:53:13] <Technix> a little off-topic, but worth reading: http://www.coyotegulch.com/reviews/linux_compilers/index.html
[01:53:21] <Away[DHowett]> And there's really no interest in making a compatibility layer, inside or outside of any particular operating system? unfortunate.
[01:53:34] <Away[DHowett]> That would be a LOT of calls :P
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[01:53:51] <umccullough> Technix, ooohhh benchmarks :)
[01:54:56] <umccullough> lol, GCC4 segfaults on a P4
[01:54:58] <MichaelHenry> So why learn C++ if it changes every GCC revision? I thought there was an ANSI standard...
[01:54:59] <aroman> isn't the Intel ICC free?
[01:55:19] <aroman> MichaelHenry: C++ didn't change... The compiled output changed...
[01:55:24] <umccullough> MichaelHenry, it doesn't change every revision
[01:55:40] <umccullough> the problem was that gcc changed between 2.x and 3.x
[01:55:43] <MichaelHenry> ahhh
[01:56:00] <umccullough> if anything, they changed it to be more like ICC
[01:56:09] <MichaelHenry> so my C++ book I'm using is still good. Whew
[01:56:20] <aroman> anyone tried to compile Haiku with ICC? :P
[01:56:23] <umccullough> yeah, the language isn't a problem - we're talking about the binary interface
[01:56:36] <umccullough> aroman, i seriously doubt you'd get very far :P
[01:56:47] <umccullough> I can't even compile Haiku on cygwin
[01:56:50] <aroman> umccullough: that's why I asked if anyone tried :P hehe
[01:56:51] <umccullough> using gcc
[01:56:52] <DHowett> Yeah.. i'm curious as to the performance differences in haiku-gcc2 and haiku-gcc4. Speedwise. I know about compatibility
[01:57:06] <umccullough> granted, that's a host platform issue
[01:57:08] <aroman> umccullough: gcc on cygwin has serious issues regarding cross-compilation..
[01:57:18] <umccullough> aroman, actually,t he cross-compiler is fine
[01:57:24] <DHowett> aroman: you can stop at "issues" in that sentence
[01:57:25] <umccullough> it's the damn linker for cygwin - it *hates* C++
[01:57:53] <umccullough> it wont' link most of the shit needed to just build haiku binaries
[01:58:12] <aroman> DHowett: could've also chopped off "gcc on" :P
[01:58:27] <aroman> all right.. gtg get some food...
[01:58:28] <aroman> bbl
[01:58:55] <DHowett> aroman: Yeah, but anything after that just doesn't make sense ;)
[01:59:02] <DHowett> aroman: i mean, any further removal :P
[01:59:40] <umccullough> i can shorten it further though
[01:59:43] <umccullough> cygwin sucks
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[02:00:00] <umccullough> i need food too
[02:00:04] <DHowett> umccullough: Amen. (:
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[02:01:46] <umccullough> llvm would be an interesting experiment though
[02:02:02] <DHowett> llvm?
[02:02:04] * Technix has had his food for the day. a big plate of spaghetti
[02:02:07] <umccullough> someone even mentioned that they wanted to try using that
[02:02:19] <Technix> linux logical volume manager I think
[02:02:47] <DHowett> I was hoping so.. i'd love to be able to maybe help with that. >_>
[02:02:48] <DHowett> :P
[02:03:04] <Technix> it would be nice, would help somewhat with RAID I think
[02:03:18] <umccullough> http://llvm.org/
[02:03:27] <DHowett> Or that.
[02:03:28] <DHowett> :)
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[02:04:14] <umccullough> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llvm
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[02:10:13] <MichaelHenry> umccullough: how hard is it to back port from gcc4 to gcc3
[02:10:19] <MichaelHenry> gcc2
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[02:15:18] * ari-free is back
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[02:19:42] <ari-free> hi
[02:20:08] <CIA-50> bonefish * r24950 /haiku/trunk/build/jam/HaikuImage:
[02:20:08] <CIA-50> Added unix sockets protocol module. There's still quite some debug
[02:20:08] <CIA-50> output enabled.
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[02:25:35] <umccullough> MichaelHenry, hm?
[02:25:47] <umccullough> you mean how hard is it to make stuff written for gcc4 compile in gcc2
[02:25:48] <umccullough> ?
[02:26:28] <umccullough> i'm not sure actually - i've messed with porting some stuff clearly written for gcc4 - had to move a lot of variable declarations around and stuff - and some builtin functions didn't exist in gcc2
[02:27:34] <umccullough> there are some things that gcc2 doesn't like that gcc4 is fine with, and vice versa :P
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[02:31:23] <duaneb> gcc4 in general is much stricer, but also adds features
[02:31:37] <duaneb> s/stricer/stricter/
[02:32:04] <ari-free> better optimized code?
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[02:33:24] <umccullough> ari-free, not in every case
[02:33:40] <umccullough> there are still things that gcc2 compiles faster code for
[02:33:54] <umccullough> usually very specialized computational stuff
[02:34:08] <ari-free> really? wow. well gcc never had a good reputation as an optimizer
[02:34:13] <umccullough> but the optimizations in gcc4 are supposed to be more reliability anyhow
[02:36:11] <ari-free> I'd be surprised if there is no open source alternative to gcc
[02:36:21] <umccullough> huh?
[02:36:36] <umccullough> as i mentioned earlier, there is llvm
[02:36:41] <umccullough> which is under a bsd-like license
[02:37:32] <ari-free> but llvm is not a complete replacement
[02:39:25] <ari-free> oh they have an online demo?
[02:39:32] <ari-free> now that is interesting
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[02:40:47] <ddew|bofh> 'lo
[02:41:52] <ari-free> hi
[02:42:21] <ari-free> yes, i have heard good things about llvm
[02:43:54] * aroman is back
[02:46:57] <Technix> ari-free: gcc is open source
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[02:47:42] <ari-free> yes and it is also well known there are closed source alternatives to gcc like intel and Microsoft
[02:48:15] <ddew|bofh> or suns compilers
[02:48:21] <ari-free> but not an open source alternative. that's what i was getting at
[02:48:44] <ari-free> I do not know if LLVM can be used to build linux
[02:50:12] <Technix> I wonder if Haiku can make use of this somehow: http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2008/04/gold-google-releases-new-and-improved.html
[02:50:44] <duaneb> Technix, I was under the impression it was i386/elf/linux only
[02:51:28] <duaneb> Technix, never mind, it should support all elf objects
[02:51:28] <umccullough> Technix, i have to assume it will end up replacing the standard gnu linker if it's really so good
[02:51:50] <Technix> agreed
[02:51:58] <Technix> which can only be helpful in any case
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[02:52:23] <duaneb> umccullough, it will never completely replace it because it is so focused, but it's already in the binutils cvs
[02:53:04] <umccullough> duaneb, not sure what you mean by "so focused"
[02:53:23] <umccullough> the fact that it's written in c++ might turn off some die-hards ;)
[02:53:58] <umccullough> i guess since it doesn't support PE...
[02:54:31] <DeadYak> umccullough: it's ELF-only
[02:54:39] <DeadYak> GNU ld has to be able to support a.out and pecoff as well
[02:54:40] <umccullough> yeah
[02:54:43] <DeadYak> so it can't completely replace it.
[02:55:01] <umccullough> although, i'm guessing the additional support could be added
[02:55:20] <umccullough> or maybe not
[02:55:21] <DeadYak> not easily, if you read his blog, the whole reason it's faster is because it very specifically depends on ELF's structure
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[02:55:36] <DeadYak> s/depends on/assumes/
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[02:56:21] <umccullough> i suppose it would be bad form to introduce it into the standard linker as an entirely separate branch of code ;)
[02:56:30] <leavengood> but it would be fine for Haiku
[02:56:33] <leavengood> we are ELF
[02:56:38] <DeadYak> leavengood: yup
[02:57:04] <leavengood> linking WebKit is a fun one
[02:57:09] <leavengood> so this sounds good to me
[02:58:14] <leavengood> I'm going to have to read his blog about all this
[02:58:20] <leavengood> could probably be educational
[02:58:35] <mmadia> leavengood have you considered trying to use Themis as the browser shell ?
[02:58:50] <umccullough> DeadYak, i've actually read about gold before now that I remember
[02:58:55] <leavengood> mmadia: I playing with Themis the other day actually
[02:59:01] <leavengood> I was playing
[02:59:17] <leavengood> there are definitely things I like about it
[02:59:18] <ari-free> there is something to themis? i thought it died
[02:59:28] <ddew|bofh> what's temis?
[02:59:30] <umccullough> wasn't themis a browser looking for a rendering engine?
[02:59:33] <ddew|bofh> *themis
[02:59:34] <leavengood> well I have some pretty old code for it
[02:59:50] <ari-free> themis is supposed to be a haiku native browser
[02:59:56] <leavengood> I may use pieces of it
[02:59:57] <mmadia> ari-free it's HTML parser was built in-house,  but the gui was sort of together.
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[03:00:14] <duaneb> umccullough, that gold only implements elf
[03:00:15] <leavengood> ari-free: well really it was written for BeOS
[03:00:32] <umccullough> duaneb, thanks - i got that ;)
[03:00:58] <ddew|bofh> is anyone doing gcc4 builds of firefox?
[03:01:17] * mmadia idly wonders why "gold" and not "Keebler"  if it only supports Elf
[03:01:17] <DeadYak> it was made to be an R5 native browser with a home grown renderer back in the day
[03:01:20] <ddew|bofh> i recall it being mentioned a while back but can't remember the spcifics
[03:01:21] <ari-free> but it wasn't finished. if it was finished it may very well only work on haiku
[03:01:25] <DeadYak> umccullough: you're thinking of Daniel Switkin's Net++ shell
[03:01:38] <DeadYak> ari-free: themis very much targeted R5, it was never aimed specifically at Haiku
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[03:01:48] <duaneb> woah, I didn't realize that
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[03:02:00] <mmadia> Daniel Switkin .... what's his nick DeadYak ?
[03:02:03] <ari-free> ok
[03:02:08] <DeadYak> mmadia: didn't have one, he was an ex-Be employee
[03:02:22] <umccullough> DeadYak, yes, you're probably right
[03:02:27] <umccullough> about net++
[03:02:35] <DeadYak> mmadia: he wrote a browser front end back in like 2002 ish because it was looking like embedded gecko would be "any day now"
[03:02:38] <duaneb> gold = 'google' plus 'ld'
[03:02:46] <DeadYak> and was pretty much waiting on that or KHTML or whatnot to be ported
[03:03:26] <DeadYak> could email him and see if he still has that code
[03:03:36] <mmadia> hrmm.. .thta might have been when i tried embedding gecko   : /
[03:05:57] <ddew|bofh> found some cool mockups of net++ :)
[03:05:58] <ddew|bofh> http://www.beosfrance.com/muckups/Net++/
[03:06:26] <mmadia> ddew|bofh that's a different mockup.
[03:06:41] <ddew|bofh> oh, still nice ones though :)
[03:07:43] <ddew|bofh> i like the minimalism of that ui
[03:08:06] <ari-free> I see it has a similar search like firefox
[03:08:47] <ddew|bofh> looks just like i imagine net+ would've looked now if it'd been updated
[03:09:21] <ari-free> firefox always had a similar look to net+ until firefox 3
[03:09:33] <mmadia> ddew|bofh   i worked with beosfrance in designing those mockups ; )
[03:09:46] <ddew|bofh> mmadia: kudos to you then :)
[03:09:53] <ari-free> still, they are closer to each other than to IE
[03:10:09] <mmadia> kudos would be deserved if gecko actually got embedded : (
[03:11:12] <ddew|bofh> that browser with webkit would be nice
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[03:11:53] <ari-free> this has a menu button
[03:12:14] <ari-free> I used to use a firefox extension to do that
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[03:23:46] <duaneb> anyone else use python/pyrex?
[03:24:27] <DeadYak> dunno about pyrex, but for python in general pyCube is your man
[03:25:28] <Technix> totally, pyCube lives and breathes Python
[03:25:47] <duaneb> heh
[03:25:53] <duaneb> python is coming along nicely
[03:26:00] <duaneb> trying to get it to dyld modules
[03:26:04] <Technix> it seems to be, yeah. Eve Online uses 2.51
[03:26:16] <Technix> hey, any Eve Online players here?
[03:26:31] <leavengood> duaneb is referring to his port of Python to Haiku going nicely ;)
[03:26:39] <Technix> oh, lol
[03:26:47] <Technix> pf.. fine :)
[03:27:00] <leavengood> but your interpretation isn't bad either
[03:27:03] <Technix> um.. keep up the good work?
[03:27:10] <leavengood> even though Ruby pwns Python
[03:27:13] <leavengood> ;)
[03:27:16] <Technix> haha
[03:27:31] <Technix> I was seriously considering convering my entire /admin to Ruby
[03:27:38] <Technix> it looks the bees knees
[03:27:40] *** DHowett has joined #haiku
[03:27:49] <leavengood> yeah I picked it up many years ago
[03:27:59] <leavengood> now I can finally use it to make money with Ruby on Rails
[03:28:19] <leavengood> though I'm getting bored with all that and would rather do Haiku stuff
[03:28:25] <leavengood> but that doesn't pay at this point
[03:28:25] <duaneb> leavengood, ^5
[03:28:33] <duaneb> ruby = big hack
[03:28:40] <duaneb> so I'll save that for some other day :P
[03:28:51] <leavengood> rubinius looks nice though
[03:28:57] <Technix> aren't the best things in life big hacks?
[03:29:15] <leavengood> I like the language itself, but Matz's interpreter definitely leaves a bit to be desired
[03:29:15] <Technix> gawd, burning my 191 dvd
[03:32:56] <duaneb> Technix, no, not really
[03:33:07] <duaneb> Technix, I'll take freebsd over linux any day
[03:33:52] * DeadYak pets freebsd
[03:34:08] <DeadYak> I still need to resurrect my server
[03:36:19] <Technix> woot.. 16minutes and I have all of The Daily Show (prior to 2007)
[03:36:33] <Technix> 44GB torrent
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[03:41:24] <ddew|bofh> when will i learn? compilations on zeta is suicide :)
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[03:41:50] <DeadYak> wb
[03:42:04] <ddew|bofh> thx
[03:45:35] <leavengood> Technix: damn how long will it take to watch all that?
[03:45:53] <Penix> 30mins per episode for ten years?....
[03:45:58] <Penix> or was it an hour originally?...
[03:50:56] <umccullough> minus commercials
[03:51:15] <leavengood> so like 22 minutes
[03:51:25] <leavengood> 5 days a week?
[03:51:54] <leavengood> 953 hours worth
[03:51:57] <leavengood> give or take
[03:52:08] <leavengood> frankly I think I could spend that time in better ways
[03:52:09] <umccullough> half a year at 8 hours a day :)
[03:52:14] <umccullough> on weekdays
[03:52:32] <Technix> 22mins per episode
[03:52:32] <leavengood> jeez
[03:52:55] <leavengood> Technix: you need some hobbies man
[03:52:58] <leavengood> LOL
[03:53:01] <Technix> that is my hobby
[03:53:05] <Technix> I collect things
[03:53:12] <umccullough> ah, so you wont' actually watch them
[03:53:15] <leavengood> ah yes, I know that mistress
[03:53:18] <umccullough> just collec them ;)
[03:53:23] <Technix> I'll watch some of it, sure
[03:53:44] <Technix> but that comprises like 1% of my collection, there's so much more I have watched
[03:53:46] <leavengood> digital packrat
[03:53:53] <Technix> you have no idea. :P
[03:54:19] <leavengood> I am too to some extent, but I've been getting more selective
[03:54:34] <leavengood> also I'm trying to get rid of physical clutter too
[03:54:42] <Technix> 120+ TV series so far
[03:54:47] <leavengood> jeez
[03:55:10] <leavengood> the MPAA called, you "owe" them 80 trillion dollars
[03:55:24] <umccullough> heh, he's in canada ;)
[03:55:29] <Technix> yeah, both MPAA and RIAA can suck my....
[03:55:30] <leavengood> good
[03:55:31] <aroman> Technix: just out of curiosity, how do you store them? DVDs? HDDs?
[03:55:36] <Technix> DVD's
[03:55:49] <Technix> I use 2 500GB as temp storage
[03:55:55] <leavengood> yeah F the MAFIAA
[03:56:04] <Technix> and then continously burn them each day as stuff comes in
[03:56:07] <aroman> yeah I'll need to redownload some things that I lost when I was playing with my ZFS drive when I get back to Canada :)
[03:56:22] *** duaneb has quit IRC
[03:56:38] <leavengood> I have kept most of the shows I downloaded, but you have to wonder if you are REALLY going to watch them again
[03:56:46] <Technix> well, its trading value
[03:56:52] <umccullough> wow
[03:56:59] <umccullough> dc++ loves you?
[03:57:04] <aroman> Technix: you should have like... 5 burners and set up a burning queue :P load the dvd's overnight and by morning (as shows download) all DVDs are burned and ejected :P
[03:57:31] <Technix> um... I just burnt 24 DVD's this afternoon, that system you propose wouldn't be sufficient
[03:57:31] <leavengood> Technix: I have plans to write a media center app for Haiku
[03:57:42] <aroman> Technix: !!!
[03:57:56] <ToxicSoul> lol
[03:57:58] <leavengood> Hella McNutts
[03:58:07] <umccullough> Technix, the question is - do you verify every burn? ;)
[03:58:11] <Technix> yes
[03:58:14] <umccullough> heh
[03:58:16] <aroman> wow
[03:58:28] <Technix> we haven't hit wow yet.
[03:58:51] <aroman> leavengood: a media center app would be really cool :)
[03:58:52] <Technix> wow is the 14TB I have access to elsewhere
[03:58:55] * leavengood figures Haiku would be at R2 by now if Technix coded on it instead of collecting digital clutter......
[03:59:06] <leavengood> :)
[03:59:07] <aroman> hahaha
[03:59:27] <leavengood> aroman: yeah that was my pet project before the WebKit thing
[03:59:36] <leavengood> even have a name, which will remain secret for now ;)
[03:59:49] <leavengood> nothing obvious, sort of like Firefox
[04:00:11] <aroman> IceMonkey!
[04:00:17] <leavengood> LOL
[04:00:19] <aroman> :)
[04:00:29] <leavengood> OK now someone has to code that up
[04:00:56] <aroman> what would it be though? :/
[04:00:58] <umccullough> i need some cheap-ass 667mhz DDR2 ram
[04:01:03] <Technix> AirFish
[04:01:12] <umccullough> for free
[04:01:15] <umccullough> cuz i gotta test this mobo
[04:01:23] <umccullough> damnit
[04:01:29] <umccullough> i hate intel mobos
[04:01:30] <leavengood> WaterCoyote
[04:01:35] <Technix> man, I cannot wait till they perfect teleporters and energy converters
[04:01:46] <umccullough> perfect?
[04:01:49] <aroman> Technix: you kmean invent? :P
[04:01:52] <aroman> mean*
[04:01:56] <Technix> no, perfect
[04:02:18] <aroman> :/
[04:02:21] <Technix> right on, Boston just won in OT
[04:05:36] <aroman> there is no programmer's calculator type of application for Haiku right?
[04:06:26] <aroman> been thinking of writing one to learn the layout system
[04:06:48] <DeadYak> define "programmer's calculator"?
[04:06:53] <DeadYak> along the lines of bc or whatnot?
[04:07:09] <aroman> hex/bin/dec/oct shifts mod etc.
[04:07:23] <aroman> logical operations
[04:07:31] <aroman> bit-wise
[04:07:44] <aroman> haven't used bc much...
[04:07:51] <aroman> but something GUI
[04:08:12] <aroman> kinda like the Windows calculator in scientific mode
[04:12:58] *** zlominus_ is now known as zlominus
[04:13:33] <ddew|bofh> has anyone here tried to build the gcc2 tool-chain on mac?
[04:15:40] <zlominus> anyone tried porting pkgsrc? I read about it somewhere ...
[04:21:33] <DeadYak> what would be the use of that?
[04:21:53] <umccullough> to create a pkgsrc package for coverity
[04:22:01] <DeadYak> you don't need pkgsrc on Haiku to do that...
[04:22:08] <umccullough> true
[04:22:21] <umccullough> just need to create a pkgsrc package :)
[04:22:35] <DeadYak> indeed
[04:22:46] <umccullough> i'm guessing it's a lot more complicated than just zipping up all the code
[04:23:14] <umccullough> as it probably needs a fully automated build setup
[04:23:20] <DeadYak> probably, I don't remember if coverity's analysis process requires just downloading the source or actually building it too
[04:23:46] <DeadYak> if nothing else it'd probably require pulling the headers for whatever external packages the build process relies on
[04:23:51] <umccullough> i was going to look into it...but it's pretty damn low on my list of things to do :)
[04:23:58] <DeadYak> I have to confess I haven't looked too closely though
[04:25:00] <umccullough> i'm depressed
[04:25:12] <umccullough> none of the DDR2 RAM i have here runs at 1.9v
[04:25:33] <leavengood> insert rant about too many types of RAM here
[04:25:36] <ari-free> coverity should be able to pick up a lot of bugs
[04:25:59] <zlominus> Is there a prefered way of packaging for haiku? I know that legacy pkg has been reversed, but is it a way to go?
[04:26:14] <umccullough> zlominus, not really
[04:26:18] <ari-free> I don't know how much of it is just marketing
[04:27:03] <DeadYak> zlominus: BeOS apps often worked a lot like OSX... drag and drop to app dir, done
[04:27:08] <DeadYak> not all bothered even installing via packages
[04:27:23] <leavengood> I still think there is a need for some kind of package installer
[04:27:31] <umccullough> probably
[04:27:32] <leavengood> that is one of those things I have been thinking about
[04:27:37] <ari-free> what about an updating system
[04:27:54] <umccullough> especially for stuff like drivers and libraries
[04:27:58] <leavengood> I was thinking of renaming PackageInstaller to LegacyPkgInstaller
[04:28:11] <leavengood> just so people know ;)
[04:28:18] <umccullough> just call it R5PackageInstaller
[04:28:24] <umccullough> or BeOSPackageInstaller
[04:28:25] <DeadYak> rename it "LeavengoodsWorstNightmare"
[04:28:28] <ari-free> legacy is a dirty word
[04:28:31] <leavengood> LOL
[04:28:43] * DeadYak has flashbacks to fragments_worst_nightmare in BONE
[04:28:48] <MichaelHenry> what about beos update that was on beunited?
[04:29:16] <aroman> ok
[04:29:17] <MichaelHenry> updater
[04:29:20] <aroman> time to go home
[04:29:21] <umccullough> you talking about that Rewhatever app?
[04:29:23] <aroman> later
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[04:29:29] * leavengood contemplates the myriad packaging systems for Linux and other systems and wonders if there is something better
[04:29:43] <MichaelHenry> based on the same lines i think
[04:29:43] <umccullough> a lot of people rave about pacman
[04:30:00] <DHowett> <3 portage. forever. Well, the idea of portage. with paludis. :P
[04:30:12] <MichaelHenry> one was named bup.zip the other reos.zip
[04:30:20] <umccullough> something like portage would be good for keeping up with ported apps ;)
[04:30:25] <ari-free> well it's one of the reasons many are developing for the web. don't need to install or update gmail
[04:30:34] <leavengood> yup
[04:30:39] <MichaelHenry> either one would work for updating the system
[04:30:44] <ari-free> don't need to worry about cross platform
[04:30:55] <umccullough> i think haiku could benefit from a system where all the GNU packages and shit were updated with a linux-like package system
[04:31:00] <Schmedly3D> only need to worry about the browser crashing :|
[04:31:05] <umccullough> but with native apps being a lot simpler
[04:31:23] <MichaelHenry> well, both of those were oss
[04:32:35] <leavengood> umccullough: yeah that might be nice
[04:32:49] <leavengood> in which case maybe just porting something like portage is the best idea
[04:33:13] <umccullough> yeah, for maintaining and updating all the cross-platform stuff that Haiku uses, that would maybe be best
[04:33:32] <leavengood> for "packages" I was thinking just a zip file plus metadata
[04:33:34] <zlominus> pacman and aur pwns portage
[04:33:41] <DHowett> portage > *
[04:33:50] <umccullough> ugh
[04:34:12] <leavengood> LOL
[04:34:41] <DHowett> but let's not drag personal opinion into here. For example- does haiku need something like portage in the sense that packages are to be compiled or just binary distribution.. if it's just binary, then maybe something less... portagelike :P
[04:34:42] <umccullough> ok, i'm shutting this machine down to steal the ram and see if it works on this mobo
[04:34:45] <umccullough> bbiab
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[04:35:14] <leavengood> the pacman project also uses Git ;)
[04:36:16] <leavengood> DHowett: yeah binaries are fine I think
[04:36:47] <leavengood> Haiku has much less....uhm...inconsistancy than Linux or even BSDs, as far as where it will be installed
[04:37:17] <leavengood> though if we start supporting PPC and stuff it can get complicated
[04:37:36] <leavengood> with even Apple moving to x86 I'm not sure that is even a good idea
[04:37:43] <DHowett> leavengood: binary packages modularized in such a fashion that they're independent of system configuration, being just datafiles or binaries; and maybe a nice little GUI for updates. Reminds me a little of OS X, but hey.. instead of porting something, maybe something new and in-house is called for?
[04:37:53] <leavengood> though maybe some old Macs could be restored to glory with Haiku ;)
[04:38:10] <leavengood> DHowett: yeah exactly
[04:38:21] <ari-free> old mac is a lost cause
[04:38:38] <leavengood> heh
[04:38:41] <MindChild> So I own 4 out of the OSNews "10 most beautiful" computers
[04:39:22] <leavengood> kitchen computer! ;)
[04:39:25] <ari-free> I guess there could be a yellow dog haiku for the old macs
[04:39:40] <zlominus> MindChild: I had 2, ps/2 and NexT-Cube
[04:40:02] <MindChild> The only ones on that list that I dont have that I want is a NextCube and a BeBox
[04:40:28] <MindChild> I have a PS/2 a PS2 an O2 and a sparctation
[04:40:29] <ari-free> what would be more interesting is haiku on a wii or ps3
[04:40:44] <leavengood> ps3 especially
[04:40:55] <leavengood> not sure about Wii (even though I own one and not a PS3 yet)
[04:41:00] <ari-free> just a bummer that the ps3 as a bust
[04:41:24] <leavengood> hey maybe the price will drop
[04:41:25] <leavengood> hehe
[04:41:41] <ari-free> there were some aspects of the ps3 that made it seem that Sony wanted an OS on it
[04:41:47] <leavengood> Haiku coded to take advantage of all the Cells would be awe inspiring
[04:42:21] <DHowett> all the ones it's allowed to.. One of eight of them is burned out during the test phase, isn't it?
[04:42:32] <geist> 6 are available to the os
[04:42:33] <leavengood> no idea
[04:42:50] <geist> kind of 5.5 actually, since one of them gets taken by the hypervisor occasionally
[04:42:55] <geist> though that may only be when running gameos
[04:42:57] <geist> unclear
[04:43:06] * leavengood thinks geist would be the Haiku-PS3 man
[04:43:26] <MindChild> Haiku needs an IO scheduler first
[04:43:26] <geist> i sorta know too much about it, since i professionally hacked on one for a while
[04:43:33] <MindChild> then it can take over the world
[04:43:45] <geist> but i didn't really have any super low level knowledge, except gpu stuff
[04:43:55] <geist> which is't available to non gameos's anyway
[04:44:06] <leavengood> is the hardware as impressive as people think?
[04:44:16] <geist> it's pretty fast
[04:44:34] <leavengood> So an OS on it would not get to use the GPU????
[04:44:35] <ari-free> I think an open ps3 is the only way sony can pull it off in the end
[04:44:44] <ari-free> otherwise the xbox will rule
[04:44:57] <Penix> leavengood: not all the impressive stuff
[04:45:09] <geist> it's not all altruism
[04:45:18] <leavengood> how does it know what is a "GameOS" and not?
[04:45:29] <Penix> leavengood: a normal OS runs on its hypervisor
[04:45:38] <geist> tey also like to let you run oses on it because then it can be classified as a home computer, which has different tax implications in the EU
[04:45:39] <leavengood> ah
[04:46:00] <geist> or so the theory goes
[04:46:01] <Penix> heh. they finally got through that loophole with 3
[04:46:04] <leavengood> so there are specs and support from Sony for OSes on it?
[04:46:15] <geist> linux has been ported to it, mostly by sony
[04:46:15] * leavengood obviously knows jack about the PS3
[04:46:31] <leavengood> hmmm
[04:46:52] <leavengood> is the Linux port interesting?
[04:46:57] <geist> you dont run on native hardware of course
[04:47:03] <geist> you're talking to the hypervisor
[04:47:12] <geist> that's why they feel it's not a big security risk
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[04:47:31] <geist> you are presented with a set of virtualized hardware
[04:47:35] <leavengood> so you can't really take it over with your own OS
[04:47:37] <geist> basically just like running on vmware
[04:47:40] <geist> right
[04:48:05] <geist> since the cpu is POWER/PPC based, it's very easy to virtualize
[04:48:06] <leavengood> so it probably isn't much better than having a CoreQuad or something, eh?
[04:48:19] <geist> since it was designed to do that (IBM)
[04:48:28] <geist> uh, dunno
[04:48:33] <ari-free> but you'd still be able to do *stuff* on the ps3 and not just games
[04:48:40] <geist> of course
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[04:48:51] <leavengood> re umccullough
[04:49:02] <geist> gameos is just a little lightweight multitasking kernel that get booted for games to run
[04:49:05] <umccullough> thx leavengood
[04:49:07] <geist> games run on the same hardware
[04:49:17] <geist> presumably they have elevated permissions that give them access to the GPU
[04:49:32] <geist> probably just a bit set in a field somewhere that instructs the hypervisor to map the gpu in
[04:50:02] <geist> but other than that, it's a pretty straightforward system
[04:50:05] <leavengood> it seems a shame not to have the GPU in the OS, for accelerated desktop affects and all that
[04:50:16] <geist> 256MB main ram, 256MB video ram (pretty much just like it's on a Pci card or something)
[04:50:31] <geist> 2 core PPU, 6 cores of SPUs available
[04:50:53] <ari-free> well their strategy still isn't to make a ps3 into an amiga sort of computer
[04:51:17] <ari-free> only a ps4 can do that
[04:51:26] <geist> no, what part of their strategy to is to make sure blu-ray won
[04:51:31] <geist> so it's already a success on that front
[04:51:38] <umccullough> we talking ps3?
[04:51:42] <geist> yep
[04:51:59] <umccullough> heh, yeah there are some very specialized math apps out there that destroy on the ps3
[04:52:04] <geist> it's relatively mediocore sales wise
[04:52:22] <geist> but it more or less caused blu-ray to win, which earns sony a zillion dollars over the upcoming years
[04:52:29] <geist> so it's already doing quite well
[04:52:34] <ari-free> yeah but the coolest thing is math on the gpu
[04:52:51] <geist> sort of, the spus are much more general purpose
[04:52:57] <geist> and they're really really damn fast
[04:53:04] <umccullough> http://www.free-dc.org/forum/showpost.php?p=117409&postcount=28
[04:53:49] <geist> nice. that's 1500 watts of heat
[04:54:18] <leavengood> jeez
[04:54:41] <umccullough> "Having 7 - 3.2GHz procs in one nice looking little box sitting on a shelf that doesn't make lots of noise and runs DNET is awesome!
[04:54:42] <umccullough> You can get just one PS3, cranking ~20T per day and turn the rest of your pharmage back to other projects
[04:54:43] <umccullough> "
[04:54:53] <leavengood> on second thought maybe just an efficient Haiku on a small fanless computer is the best bet ;)
[04:55:42] <leavengood> all you crazy dstrib computing guys
[04:55:52] * leavengood can't help but see that as a waste of electricity
[04:56:21] <geist> well yes and no. if you can use the heat generated, then it's more interesting than running a space heater
[04:56:24] <ari-free> I couldn't take it anymore :) I tried
[04:56:40] <geist> but now that it's getting warmer around here, i have little need for stuff that adds heat to the room
[04:57:05] <umccullough> i've been running less lately
[04:57:09] <leavengood> yeah I live in south fl and pretty much never need heat
[04:57:41] <umccullough> anyhow, ttyl, kids want me to play games
[04:57:48] <leavengood> later umccullough
[04:58:00] <leavengood> I really should go be more productive too
[04:58:03] <ari-free> PESIA
[04:58:07] <leavengood> and hit the sack soon
[04:58:16] <ari-free> cya l8r
[04:58:19] <leavengood> later
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[05:04:14] <aroman> so now I tried booting haiku on my desktop dell optiplex
[05:04:30] <aroman> but there is something WRONG with the monitor (incorrect resolution detected on all OSes)
[05:04:45] <aroman> there is something wrong with the refresh because the display is scrambled
[05:04:53] <aroman> how can I change the default mode it goes in?
[05:05:01] <aroman> also the boot screen didn't work
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[05:34:11] <aroman> umccullough: did you get a beos r5 pro driver for your ipro1000 ethernet card?
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[05:39:16] <The_Ringmaster> hey
[05:46:39] <geist> it's teh ringmaster
[05:46:54] <The_Ringmaster> in the hizous
[05:47:24] <The_Ringmaster> anything exciting happen lately?
[05:47:51] <aroman> gr gr gr... doesn't beos r5 understand the joliet cd format??
[05:54:21] <geist> thought so, I wrote that code
[05:55:24] <aroman> either that, or I'm not writing the cd correctly, because I get an (Invalid Argument) when I try to mount the CD
[05:55:31] <aroman> the label of the CD is recognized
[05:55:54] <geist> could be some new extension it doesn't recognize
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[05:57:13] <aroman> hmm
[05:58:04] <Technix> hey The_Ringmaster
[05:58:16] <The_Ringmaster> Technix: hey
[05:59:24] <Technix> what was the command used when you mounted it, aroman ?
[05:59:27] <aroman> how do I mount a CD manually? what's the device in /dev that I need to point it too?
[06:01:07] <aroman> well
[06:01:18] <aroman> I tight clicked on the desktop and clicked mount :P
[06:01:23] <aroman> right*
[06:01:46] <aroman> now I was trying to mount it in the terminal, but I'm not sure what my cdrom device is...
[06:02:05] <aroman> been trying something like /dev/disk/ide/atapi/1/master/0/1_0, but that didn't work
[06:02:09] <DeadYak> aroman: it's usually going to be somewhere under /dev/disk/ide, depends on what controller it's on and whetherit's master or slave
[06:03:08] <aroman> it's the secondary slave drive (ide)
[06:03:35] <aroman> I tried mount /dev/disk/ide/atapi/1/master/0/1_0 /mnt/cdrom but that failed
[06:03:49] <aroman> I'm assuming it's somewhere under atapi since CDROMs use atapi
[06:04:16] <umccullough> ide cdroms do anyway
[06:04:34] <aroman> yeah, this one's IDE
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[06:06:07] <aroman> ok... different approach... I mounted the R5 CD, which mounts fine, how can I show a list of mounts?
[06:06:10] <aroman> :P
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[06:09:29] <DeadYak> aroman: df
[06:10:20] <Technix> or type 'mount' in Terminal
[06:10:23] <aroman> hmm I was using the right device
[06:10:33] <aroman> Technix: that doesn't work on R5... first thing I tried
[06:10:36] <DeadYak> aroman: what fs were you specifying?
[06:10:42] <Technix> ok, what filesystem did you try?
[06:10:50] <aroman> DeadYak: none...
[06:10:52] <aroman> :/
[06:10:55] <DeadYak> by default it tries BFS
[06:11:16] <Technix> what kind is the CD that you're trying to mount?
[06:11:30] <umccullough> joliet is an extension of iso9660 isn't it?
[06:11:35] <DeadYak> yes
[06:11:48] <umccullough> mostly for the long filename support IIRC
[06:11:51] <aroman> gotcha... what's the fs name for cds?
[06:11:53] <DeadYak> mount -t iso9660 should work for that
[06:11:54] <aroman> iso9660?
[06:12:14] <aroman> nope :( I get Invalid argument
[06:12:22] <umccullough> yay, love that error :)
[06:12:28] <aroman> any way to get it to tell me more? :P
[06:12:49] <aroman> umccullough: did you ever get your network card to work in R5?
[06:12:52] <umccullough> yeah
[06:13:01] <umccullough> i eventually had to install BONE though
[06:13:06] <umccullough> cuz net_server was pissing me off
[06:13:17] <Monni> BONE is for dogs
[06:13:20] <umccullough> and then Boneyard crashed whenever I tried to configure the card - so I had to use ifconfig
[06:13:33] <umccullough> so i haven't reboot since i got it working ;)
[06:13:39] <aroman> hehehe
[06:13:43] <umccullough> busy downloading stuff and setting up a haiku build env
[06:13:48] <aroman> where did you get the driver and bone and stuff?
[06:13:56] <umccullough> i built the driver from an old haiku repo
[06:13:58] <Technix> what happpens if your computer crashes? giggle
[06:14:03] <umccullough> bone you can find pretty easily
[06:14:21] <umccullough> i've been using haiku on another partition to copy files to the R5 partition ;)
[06:14:25] <umccullough> exceptionally handy
[06:14:38] <umccullough> haiku "just works" - r5 suckas
[06:14:56] <aroman> my screen resolution is screwed up in haiku :(
[06:14:59] <umccullough> still need t compile the intel_extreme driver for R5 and install it
[06:15:00] <aroman> else I would use it
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[06:15:11] <umccullough> aroman, did you try the safe mode video?
[06:15:29] <umccullough> and, is that using the intel integrated video?
[06:15:33] <umccullough> mine is i845
[06:15:52] <aroman> umccullough: how do I boot into that?
[06:16:01] <umccullough> hit spacebar at POST
[06:16:03] <aroman> k
[06:16:04] <Technix> hit the spacebar
[06:16:05] <aroman> I'll try
[06:16:08] <umccullough> or, before haiku starts anyway
[06:16:16] <umccullough> i hit it after i choose Haiku in grub
[06:17:08] <umccullough> damn - R5 is slow with SVN
[06:17:23] <umccullough> i probably should install the ide replacement driver though...
[06:17:52] <DHowett> I hate this. How the christ do i get my EDID info in linux?
[06:17:54] <DHowett> ><
[06:19:17] <CIA-50> anevilyak * r24951 /haiku/trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
[06:19:17] <CIA-50> Modified bin/keymap's -h option to write a variable to the generated header
[06:19:17] <CIA-50> indicating the name of the keymap. Correspondingly, modified input_server
[06:19:17] <CIA-50> to use the aforementioned variable in order to write the name attribute
[06:19:17] <CIA-50> to ~/config/Key_map. This allows Keymap prefs to correctly recognize the name
[06:19:18] <CIA-50> of the default keymap on a fresh build.
[06:20:08] <aroman> grr
[06:20:15] <aroman> I tried setting a default video mode
[06:20:20] <ari-free> what do they mean by this: BFS2 : OpenBFS already has features not present on the original BFS. To improve it even more we will need to break on-disk compatibility by changing its data structures.
[06:20:22] <aroman> now the boot screen worked just fine
[06:20:42] <aroman> BUT once it started the graphical user interface the problem reappeared... I think the refresh rate is messed up :(
[06:20:49] <DeadYak> ari-free: which part?
[06:21:03] <ari-free> last part. what needs to be broken for what features
[06:21:03] <aroman> DHowett: can't xdpyinfo dump edid info?
[06:21:19] <DeadYak> ari-free: not sure what Axel had in mind
[06:21:28] <DeadYak> ari-free: and he means compatibility with BFS
[06:21:29] <aroman> DHowett: http://john.fremlin.de/programs/linux/read-edid/
[06:21:30] <umccullough> i seem to recall reading about that
[06:21:43] <DHowett> aroman: read-edid doesn't work.
[06:21:46] <DeadYak> ari-free: in other words, changing the structures such that R5 BFS would no longer be able to mount it
[06:22:02] <ari-free> is bfs that bad?
[06:22:02] <aroman> DHowett: how come?
[06:22:07] <DeadYak> ari-free: it has its limitations
[06:22:21] <DHowett> aroman: AMD64.
[06:22:26] <DeadYak> max file size of 34GB for instance
[06:22:30] <umccullough> bfs is definitely not the fastest filesystem around ;)
[06:22:46] <ari-free> 34 gigs? all this talk about 64 bit...
[06:22:54] <DeadYak> ari-free: it's a 64-bit filesystem
[06:23:04] <ari-free> and exabytes
[06:23:13] <DeadYak> ari-free: but in practice the size of a file depends on how the blocks are mapped
[06:23:25] <DeadYak> no 64-bit filesystem can actually store 2^64 bytes in a single file
[06:23:34] <ari-free> now this is just maximum file size you're saying
[06:23:38] <DeadYak> yes.
[06:23:38] <DHowett> Well apparently the ONLY info my EDID is giving up is 1280x800. Meh.
[06:23:45] <geist> the Be implementation isn't the fastest
[06:23:50] <geist> bfs as a design isn't so bad
[06:24:00] <DeadYak> geist: that's more a matter of the cache than anything else no?
[06:24:02] <geist> it's actually not that different from most other unixy things, structurally
[06:24:12] <DeadYak> cache/io sched
[06:24:37] <ari-free> bfs as i understood was supposed to be really fastfor really big media files
[06:24:42] <geist> DeadYak: yeah, basically. relatively small journal, lack of beos directory caches, relatively small block cache, intense metadata ops (indexing)
[06:24:51] <ari-free> not just for lots of small files
[06:24:52] <geist> ari-free: right, it's pretty well optimized for streaming
[06:25:06] <ari-free> not good
[06:25:21] <DeadYak> geist: journal size is tuneable though in theory, no?
[06:25:27] <geist> but should keep the design and implementation seperate
[06:25:33] <geist> the beos implementation suffers a lot
[06:25:47] <geist> but a 'good' native implementation on say linux shoudl perform pretty well
[06:26:00] <geist> easily as good as ext3 at least, which it's pretty close to design wise
[06:26:04] <Technix> anyone recommend a good widescreen computer monitor, preferably > 24"
[06:26:07] <Technix> ?
[06:26:09] <geist> Technix: dell
[06:26:19] <ari-free> as it turned out, BeOS turned into more of a casual OS (keep track of lotso mp3's) and wasn't really used as a mediaOS
[06:26:20] <geist> the dell 30" is great. using one right now
[06:26:21] * umccullough just got a 24" samsung
[06:26:35] <umccullough> Technix, you want higher than 1920x1200?
[06:26:42] <Technix> yes
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[06:26:46] <umccullough> don't blame ya :P
[06:26:51] <Technix> this guy: http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/monitor_3007wfp?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
[06:26:54] <Technix> ?
[06:26:56] <Technix> any good?
[06:27:17] <geist> yep, that's what I have right here
[06:27:19] <geist> i love it
[06:27:20] <DHowett> Technix: Got DVI-D? :)
[06:27:23] <Technix> cool.
[06:27:33] <geist> only downside is it only has one DVI input
[06:27:36] <Technix> I believe my 8600gt does
[06:27:47] <geist> yeah, your 8600 will have no prblem driving it
[06:27:50] <Technix> well, that's ok
[06:28:00] <Technix> I plan to get a cheap 22" as a secondary
[06:28:01] <geist> my only other nit is the SD card reader on the side can't handle high capacity
[06:28:10] <geist> but I didn't buy it for the integrated card reader
[06:28:15] <DHowett> A monitor with a built in SD Card reader? ... Sweet.
[06:28:42] <umccullough> a monitor that big is one of the only things on your desk ;)
[06:28:43] <ari-free> there are monitors with built in whole computers :)
[06:28:57] <geist> most of the dell lcds have built in card readers
[06:29:02] <DHowett> ari-free: They're arguably 'computers' though ;)
[06:29:08] <Technix> my uncle is going to be buying me a 30" whatever I choose if I do some work for him computer-wise.. so, I figure I should get the best deal I can
[06:29:17] <ari-free> toys :P
[06:29:25] <geist> yep, it's $1200 or so, but dell's price moves around a lot
[06:29:30] <geist> keep an eye out for it on sale
[06:29:37] <Technix> nice, thx
[06:29:40] <geist> it'll be +/- $200 depending on the day
[06:29:53] <Technix> that's just about the right price range
[06:31:05] <aroman> ok I got the video to work with the VESA driver...
[06:31:14] <aroman> that is... my refresh issue in haiku
[06:31:17] <geist> if you want something you can plug in other stuff to, component, vga, svideo, etc
[06:31:22] <geist> you'll have to go with the 24"
[06:31:27] <geist> which is a fine monitor too
[06:31:28] <Technix> naw
[06:31:35] <Technix> or maybe, get that as a secondary
[06:31:42] <geist> most of the 30"s have a single input
[06:31:46] <Technix> I'll be doing some architect work this summer
[06:31:55] <Technix> so will need a big ass monitor
[06:31:56] <geist> another thing that folks figured out is the 20" dell is precisely as wide as the 30" is tall
[06:32:02] <geist> and you can rotate them 90 degrees
[06:32:12] <Technix> oh, very sexy
[06:32:12] <geist> so basicalyl you can stuff a rotated 20" right next to a 30"
[06:32:52] <Technix> still doesn't beat my NOC setup though, 4x19" widescreens
[06:32:58] <Technix> but, it'll do. :P
[06:34:20] <aroman> and networking works on haiku :) beautiful :)
[06:34:24] <aroman> but DHCP doesn't work...
[06:34:33] <aroman> is that a known issue?
[06:34:49] <DeadYak> it works here...
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[06:35:13] <DeadYak> though I've heard of people having problems with it sometimes
[06:35:20] <aroman> hmm... yeah wouldn't trust my setup here... most likely something wrong with it
[06:35:21] <DeadYak> might depend on your DHCP server
[06:35:41] <aroman> I'll see when I get back home to Canada with my good setup
[06:35:58] <DeadYak> okeydokey
[06:36:12] <DeadYak> mine's just the DHCP server off a Linksys WRT54GL in any case
[06:36:31] <DeadYak> albeit running DD-WRT
[06:36:58] <aroman> at home I've got a box running pfsense so it has a standard "bsd" dhcp server
[06:37:11] <aroman> as in the one that comes with most bsd distros
[06:37:16] <DeadYak> would be good to know why it's failing though...
[06:37:30] <DeadYak> do you have any way to track packets on whatever your DHCP server's running on?
[06:37:46] <aroman> hmm
[06:38:19] <umccullough> dhcp works here also
[06:38:30] <umccullough> i also use a wrt54g
[06:38:46] <umccullough> i need to put dd-wrt on that one still ;)
[06:38:51] <umccullough> my wrt54gl has it already
[06:38:58] <umccullough> but that one is in client mode
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[06:40:21] <Technix> jesus, I just burnt 80 movies
[06:40:37] <Technix> time for a break
[06:40:42] <DocPheniX> lol
[06:40:43] <aroman> Technix: you're MAD! :D
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[06:47:10] <aroman> so, is there any way to set a particular refresh rate / mode for the intel_extreme accelerant to use? whenever I use it my refresh rate is screwed up
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[06:56:58] <DHowett> I wonder if Irrlicht will work on haiku, when haiku is post-alpha ... hmm
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[07:13:09] <psychodealiq> some problem occurs when trying to use USB keyboard: it doesn't work after boot unless some key is hold during boot process...
[07:14:34] <psychodealiq> it seems that Haiku tries to initialize ps2 keyboard anyway, even if USB keyboard's already deected
[07:18:02] <DeadYak> aroman: I *think* refresh rate might be an issue currently... umccullough would probably know for sure though
[07:18:07] <DeadYak> anyways, I need to head for bed here
[07:18:10] <DeadYak> night guys
[07:19:04] <DHowett> night DeadYak
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[08:38:34] <pyCube> plants...
[08:38:50] <pyCube> i like plants
[08:42:13] <ari-free> as pets or eating?
[08:42:45] <pyCube> both
[08:43:01] <ari-free> then chia pet is just what you need!
[08:43:12] <pyCube> um.. heh.. no thanks
[08:43:40] <pyCube> filling my greenhouse with chia pets seems kinda...lame
[08:43:50] <ari-free> we have the aerogarden. it's pretty cool
[08:44:38] <ari-free> I can see a place for a chia pet snuck in one of the corners
[08:45:03] <ari-free> where nobody can notice it
[08:45:16] <pyCube> i have a greenhouse full of tomato, basil, cucumber, lettuce, peppers, strawberries, and various other things
[08:46:06] <pyCube> and my front yard is full of jasmine, which is in bloom at the moment.. love it.  walk outside into a cloud of sweet jasmine smell
[08:46:23] <ari-free> in the aerogarden we have basil and other herbs but we're thinking of using it to grow tomatoes. it works very well on the kitchen table
[08:46:36] <ari-free> I never saw jasmine before...
[08:46:48] <ari-free> is it like lavender?
[08:47:02] <pyCube> its one of those really cool climby invasive plants
[08:47:19] <ari-free> like kudzu but smells good
[08:47:22] <pyCube> with nice little white 5 petal flowers that smell really nice
[08:47:33] <pyCube> not quite as invasive as kudzu.. hehe
[08:47:50] <pyCube> but it does well when it has something to climb
[08:47:56] <ari-free> ah
[08:48:24] <ari-free> can you cook with it?
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[08:49:28] <geist> http://youtube.com/watch?v=eKgvRtVjOcM
[08:49:38] <pyCube> you *can* cook with anything...
[08:49:39] <pyCube> :-p
[08:49:42] <pyCube> http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ldplants/images/trja12.jpg
[08:49:48] <geist> I will protect boys
[08:51:05] <ari-free> ok but I am trying to get an idea of what it's like...what would it go with
[08:51:17] <ari-free> that video is...odd
[08:51:54] <pyCube> i just lke jasmine as a decorative plant that also smells reall nice.. not all perfumey
[08:52:05] <pyCube> kind of a sweet smell
[08:52:20] <ari-free> so not's not like basil or oregano
[08:52:26] <ari-free> it's not
[08:52:29] <pyCube> no
[08:52:30] <pyCube> s'not
[08:53:04] <pyCube> we have a bunch of lavendar too
[08:53:13] <ari-free> I would kill for a bay leaf tree
[08:53:17] <pyCube> yeah
[08:53:20] <pyCube> that'd be neat
[08:53:48] <ari-free> i like most herbs, even cilantro
[08:53:52] <pyCube> i was at a friends house today.. first time i'd ever seen artichoke plants
[08:53:59] <pyCube> pretty neat
[08:55:51] <ari-free> you never saw an artichoke before?
[08:56:06] <pyCube> i've seen and eaten MANY artichokes
[08:56:07] <pyCube> hehe
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[08:56:17] <pyCube> but i had never seen the plant fomr which they come
[08:56:23] <pyCube> from
[08:56:24] <ari-free> ah but assumed they came from the store :)
[08:56:31] <pyCube> heh.. no
[08:57:11] <ari-free> hearts of palm. no idea where they come from
[08:58:15] <ari-free> i know what a palm tree looks like...I just don't know where the hearts are
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[08:58:34] <pyCube> the center of the tree
[08:58:58] <ari-free> my guess would be the branches
[08:59:08] <pyCube> 'cept palms have no brnaches
[08:59:20] <ari-free> the leaves
[08:59:31] <pyCube> ..hence the joke about rural american family trees being like palm trees
[08:59:59] <ari-free> oh man ha
[09:01:29] <pyCube> iirc, palm heart is like the center 'wood' from some sort of palm
[09:02:21] <pyCube> ..i prefer artichoke heart myself..
[09:04:26] <ari-free> by palm branch i mean the frond. so I would guess the center of that would be the heart. but not from the actual trunk
[09:05:43] <pyCube> i am gonna stick to my guess of being trunk core
[09:05:44] <pyCube> hehe
[09:06:04] <ari-free> and the answer is...
[09:06:11] <ari-free> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_palm
[09:06:50] <ari-free> I would have never guessed
[09:07:22] <pyCube> lately i have been addicted to cantaloupe
[09:08:36] <ari-free> a holiday coming soon so we're getting a nice horseradish. ok so it's not the most pleasant vegetable
[09:09:30] * pyCube fears holidays that come with horseradish
[09:09:46] <ari-free> at least it's a lot easier grating it in the food processor than grating by hand with a box grater
[09:11:05] <ari-free> I still have to peel the darn thing
[09:15:19] <pyCube> i'll admit, i dont have much experience with horseradish
[09:15:30] <pyCube> ..outside of wasabi
[09:15:31] <pyCube> heh
[09:15:40] <ari-free> it actually is very good if you don't eat it plain
[09:15:47] <pyCube> i am sure
[09:15:54] <ari-free> wasabi basically is horseradish
[09:16:02] <pyCube> most things can be prepared in a way thats really tastey
[09:16:13] <ari-free> yeah but i ate it plain...
[09:16:25] <ari-free> it can smoke your hair
[09:16:40] <pyCube> eggplant is a great example of a food that can REALLY suck, or really good.. all about preparation
[09:16:49] <ari-free> that's right!
[09:17:12] <ari-free> eggplant goes really well with cilantro. another forbidden herb
[09:17:39] <pyCube> i dunno.. i grew up around mexican cuisine, so cilantro is pretty standard fare
[09:18:20] <ari-free> http://www.ihatecilantro.com
[09:19:20] <pyCube> heh.. how could you dislike  cilantro?
[09:19:29] <ari-free> I once introduced a friend to cilantro. i said you may have to acquire a taste. he tried it. i saw the look on his face. i asked him "well?" he said "I'm acquiring"
[09:19:33] <pyCube> its not excessively pungent or anything
[09:19:36] <pyCube> very mellow
[09:19:53] <ari-free> it's very very different
[09:20:26] <pyCube> hmm
[09:20:27] <pyCube> heh
[09:20:33] <ari-free> this site even has haikus
[09:21:05] <pyCube> i guess i just grew up tasting it.
[09:21:36] <ari-free> i didn't. i love it. but i can understand why others might not
[09:22:32] <pyCube> whats next, www.ihatebasil.com ?
[09:22:34] <pyCube> hehe
[09:22:49] <ari-free> basil is different
[09:23:14] <ari-free> durian. now that is crazy
[09:23:24] <pyCube> heh
[09:23:37] <pyCube> never had it, but i'd love to
[09:23:57] <ari-free> no you don't. it's like rotten old socks
[09:24:04] <pyCube> heh
[09:24:16] <pyCube> people say that about sauerkraut too
[09:24:23] <pyCube> and i love sauerkraut
[09:24:26] <ari-free> no not like that
[09:24:33] <geist> durian smells *bad*
[09:24:40] <ari-free> people eat it because of the texture
[09:24:52] <ari-free> it's like custard
[09:25:13] <pyCube> my grandfather makes sauerkraut.. and when he does his little workshop gets pretty stinky
[09:25:52] <ari-free> not like this
[09:26:01] <pyCube> hehe
[09:26:08] <geist> it's apaprently like having a corpse in the room
[09:26:34] <geist> many cities in asia ban it in various places
[09:26:38] <geist> on the bus, etc
[09:26:51] <pyCube> i have three kids..all of them were once little shit machines.. i got pretty god at dealing with smells
[09:27:15] <pyCube> good too
[09:27:16] <ari-free> well you wouldn't want to eat it
[09:28:10] <pyCube> whats totally wrong s when kids swallow raisins whole.. and the sorta rehydrate in grapes before exiting in diapers..
[09:28:23] <pyCube> hehe
[09:28:54] <waveshaper> anyone tried Haiku on Asus Eee?
[09:29:07] <waveshaper> its got a SSD disk, will haiku work with that?
[09:29:13] <ari-free> I'm trying to think of the fruit i really like
[09:29:19] <ari-free> it looks like an artichoke
[09:30:54] <pyCube> i think a good, cold pineapple is about as good as it gets when it comes to food pleasure
[09:30:57] <ari-free> cherimoya
[09:31:01] <ari-free> those are good
[09:31:06] <pyCube> especially if youre kinda thirsty
[09:32:14] <pyCube> i love the play between sour and sweet...and LOTS of both
[09:32:38] <ari-free> also nice grilled
[09:32:55] <pyCube> yeah.. first time i had that was at a brazilian place
[09:33:00] <pyCube> ..wasnt expecting it
[09:33:07] <pyCube> i saw pineapple and thought cold
[09:33:23] <pyCube> sorta shocked me.. but it was really good
[09:33:49] <ari-free> lots of fruit good cooked. but you don't have to
[09:34:27] <pyCube> where i grew up there was lots of creeks that were lined with tons of blackberry bushes..
[09:35:02] <pyCube> we used to float down the creeks and get completely gorged on blackberries
[09:35:11] <pyCube> ..good times
[09:35:49] <ari-free> we don't have nature in NY but we make up for it with lots of markets so we have every fruit in the world
[09:36:00] <pyCube> yeah
[09:36:23] <pyCube> its just crazy thinking about all the free food i had access to back then
[09:36:50] <pyCube> during the summer, i usually just had dinner at home
[09:37:03] <ari-free> just had berries all day?
[09:37:07] <pyCube> hehe
[09:37:08] <pyCube> no
[09:37:39] <pyCube> tomatoes, corn, plums, cherries, cucumbers, apples, etc
[09:37:44] <ari-free> fruit is not very filling after an hour. you are hungry like crazy
[09:37:47] <pyCube> peas and beans
[09:38:14] <ari-free> wow
[09:38:19] <ari-free> thats the good stuff
[09:38:36] <pyCube> i loved it when the tomatoes would get ripe
[09:38:48] <ari-free> i could even consider being a vegetarian if the stuff is that good and real
[09:39:02] <pyCube> we used to go out armed with salt and pepper.. nice big sun warmed tomatoes
[09:39:50] <pyCube> chores were things like plucking tomato worms and shooting birds
[09:39:53] <pyCube> hehe
[09:40:26] <ari-free> well the grape tomatoes are pretty good. anything bigger than that tastes like cardboard
[09:40:41] <pyCube> not if you eat a real tomato
[09:41:16] <ari-free> yeah the grape tastes like a real tomato
[09:42:04] <ari-free> i don't know why they even bother selling the others
[09:42:15] <ari-free> maybe they think it's a decoration
[09:43:02] <pyCube> yeah.. some of the shit they sell as tomatoes are pretty amazing
[09:43:10] <pyCube> pink, mealy sad tings
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[09:44:16] <pyCube> i think i just like food
[09:44:17] <ari-free> people buy it
[09:44:39] <pyCube> yeah.. and its why too many people think they dont like tomatoes
[09:46:11] <ari-free> thats why i like martha stewart. she may be evil but she introduced people to the idea that there is more than what you can get from the supermarket
[09:46:28] <pyCube> yeah
[09:46:45] <ari-free> all kinds of heirloom vegetables
[09:46:56] <pyCube> i am tryin gto figure out how to find myself in the business of food production
[09:47:06] <pyCube> i'd really like a small farm
[09:47:53] <pyCube> grow good stuff and get people to see how food can actually taste good..
[09:48:16] <pyCube> ..without high fructose corn syrup
[09:48:19] <pyCube> hehe
[09:48:41] <ari-free> oh i hate that
[09:49:23] <ari-free> I made sure to get some coke with sugar instead of corn syrup
[09:50:03] <ari-free> may need to buy more
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[09:51:12] <pyCube> the weird thing is that the grocery stores up were i am from...where all that agriculture is going on, they totally suck
[09:51:34] <pyCube> yet the ones here in the sf bay area are really nice
[09:52:23] <ari-free> here we get most stuff from the supermarket but we get fruit from the fruit and vegetable store
[09:52:52] <ari-free> we like the idea of specialization
[09:53:08] <pyCube> the farmers markets are all starting up this time of year
[09:53:42] <ari-free> sf...so you also have the asian markets too
[09:54:22] <ari-free> it's not as if you're in kansas where they see a tomato once a year
[09:54:43] <pyCube> hehe.. thankfully
[09:54:54] <pyCube> tomater
[09:55:17] <ari-free> a 2 hour drive to the 5 star restaurant applebees
[09:55:25] <pyCube> hehe
[09:55:39] <pyCube> all that shit is the same
[09:56:17] <pyCube> ithe same food with 'italian' flavors is olive garden
[09:56:26] <ari-free> they're getting there. it's the next step up from mcdonalds
[09:56:36] <pyCube> and then theres that BS like outback steakhouse
[09:57:45] <ari-free> one step at a time. we can't expect most americans to demand foie gras with white truffles
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[09:58:09] <pyCube> i dont mean lke that
[09:58:25] <pyCube> i just mean freshness.. realness
[09:58:50] <ari-free> but they have nothing else to compare to in many small towns
[09:59:16] <ari-free> now it makes no sense in NY
[09:59:25] <ari-free> they should know better :)
[10:00:00] <pyCube> the rising fuel prices, and the food prices that follow, will hopefully make peopel thikn twice about localizing food production a little more
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[10:00:40] <Stargater> hi
[10:00:51] <ari-free> oh i fear more junk because junk is cheap
[10:01:02] <pyCube> but shipping it around isnt
[10:01:17] <pyCube> and the energy required to process it all
[10:02:11] <ari-free> but small farms aren't going to supply enough food
[10:02:41] <pyCube> its pretty scary seeing all the good ag land here in california being turned into housing..
[10:03:08] <aroman> I just got a page fault (with interrupts disabled) while copying some stuff with ftp over the network.
[10:03:17] <aroman> I'm in kdl right now
[10:03:31] <aroman> should I save anything or something?
[10:03:31] <pyCube> sure.. not everywhere could produce entirely locally.. and thigns like wheat and sugar and stuff.. obviously shiping shit around is required
[10:03:56] <ari-free> the shipping is easier with the economies of scale
[10:04:46] <ari-free> big companies are very efficient
[10:04:53] <pyCube> at being businesses
[10:05:01] <pyCube> at playing a game
[10:05:23] <ari-free> but they can pull it off. the small farms are at a big disadvantage
[10:05:33] <aroman> ok I'm just gonna reboot...
[10:05:52] <pyCube> only if you expect small farms to play the same game
[10:06:11] <ari-free> but they are very vulnerable during an inflation
[10:06:28] <pyCube> inflation is part of a game
[10:06:37] <CIA-50> axeld * r24952 /haiku/trunk/headers/compatibility/bsd/sys/time.h:
[10:06:37] <CIA-50> This header is no longer necessary, since Ingo added the BSD timer macros
[10:06:37] <CIA-50> to our sys/time.h - this fixes a lot of warnings, too.
[10:07:22] <pyCube> its not like economics is akin to the laws of physics
[10:07:44] <ari-free> jude wanniski always kept driving home the fact that it's the 3rd world that benefits the most from a sound sollar
[10:08:09] <ari-free> we have a mostly service based economy so we can take the hit
[10:09:47] <ari-free> the other countries have higher inflation
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[10:10:34] <ari-free> they don't have hi tech web companies. it's all commodity based
[10:10:43] <pyCube> what is inflation? i know what it means and how it works.. but what is it?
[10:10:52] <pyCube> where did it come from?
[10:11:07] <ari-free> it comes from the fed creating more money than needed
[10:11:29] <ari-free> so all the prices go up even though the is no increased demand
[10:11:29] <pyCube> ok.. so its a game.. or a rule in a game
[10:11:57] <pyCube> so why cant we just stop worrying about it and go play a game that less sucky?
[10:12:43] <ari-free> well some people think inflation is good
[10:12:59] <pyCube> clearly people that benefit from it do
[10:13:07] <ari-free> or they don't want to give up control
[10:14:02] <ari-free> imagine you owe money to someone. with inflation the dollar you give back is much less valuable than the dollar you took
[10:14:11] <pyCube> right, but regardless of inflation, if you plant some food, it will grow (assuming you take care of it, etc)
[10:14:50] <ari-free> but that costs money!
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[10:15:44] <pyCube> not for any real reason.. real in the same sense as "if you dont water your plant, it dies"
[10:15:56] <Thom_Holwerda> crap osn no workie :(
[10:15:59] <ari-free> water costs money
[10:16:07] <ari-free> especially in cali
[10:16:09] <Thom_Holwerda> ah
[10:16:13] <Thom_Holwerda> back
[10:16:42] <pyCube> agai, not for a real real reason
[10:17:11] <ari-free> well you have people who want to drink it and farmers who need it for plants. so they fight over it
[10:17:20] <pyCube> i understand the realness in the business, economics sense..
[10:17:39] <pyCube> i am questioning the realness of the economics, etc
[10:18:12] <ari-free> not sure what you mean
[10:19:29] <pyCube> its not real like gravity or electromagnetic radiation.. its real like a RISK or chess
[10:21:21] <ari-free> well economics is a social science
[10:21:32] <pyCube> you can investigate it and make rules and find mathematical realness in it.. but you could as well just change the rules.. or quit playing and find something else to do
[10:22:27] <ari-free> well thats why it is important for economists to make predictions
[10:22:55] <ari-free> many of them say whatever they want...that is true
[10:23:41] <ari-free> it's like theoretical physics instead of something an engineer would use
[10:23:52] <pyCube> even if they are telling the truth.. its like proving something about playing chess.. might be totally true.. but who cares?
[10:24:56] <pyCube> the older i get, the more silly the whole thing seems
[10:25:01] <ari-free> if you want to be a grandmaster you should care
[10:25:38] <pyCube> sure, the problem is that games like inflation cause real suffering..
[10:26:13] <ari-free> well, we actually had a deflation in the late 90's
[10:26:54] <ari-free> so there was a pendulum swing towards inflation
[10:27:03] <ari-free> but deflation is even worse
[10:27:53] <ari-free> deflation screws borrowers
[10:28:13] <aroman> I'm off to sleep
[10:28:19] <aroman> good night everyone
[10:28:23] <ari-free> night
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[10:32:28] <pyCube> well, until i can get myself a farm, i guess its more coding.. hehe
[10:33:52] <ari-free> I wish i could do either!
[10:34:21] <ari-free> but i study economics and how markets work. hopefully that will help everyone
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[10:35:50] <ari-free> one thing I am really interested is how operating systems get off the ground
[10:38:47] <pyCube> i like my job. i get to play with lots of different problems
[10:40:14] <ari-free> you code in python?
[10:40:19] <pyCube> yeah
[10:40:47] <ari-free> i looked into that today. dloaded it and came up with a few programs. it's easy so far
[10:41:02] <ari-free> much easier than those c++ classes i took ages ago
[10:41:32] <pyCube> its definitely a very approachable language
[10:42:18] <ari-free> maybe i could get to the c++ if i knew python?
[10:42:36] <ari-free> it looks like python is straight to the point
[10:42:43] <pyCube> i think it makes reading code much easier
[10:43:09] <ari-free> i need to focus on the algorithms and concepts
[10:44:09] <pyCube> thats why i like python.. the language part of relatively small, and consistent.. so its easy to leearn and get to actually thinking about coding and concepts and such
[10:44:42] <pyCube> and once you get there, transfering it to other languages is not such a big deal
[10:45:00] <ari-free> also there's the interpreter so i learned things very fast today
[10:48:21] <pyCube> lately i have been using pyqt4 mostly.. qt is pretty nice
[10:49:36] <ari-free> i have python for windows
[10:49:58] <ari-free> it has a gui but copy/paste isn't available by context menu
[10:50:51] <ari-free> lots of colors though
[10:52:50] <PulkoMandy> hand-copying the code helps you remember the syntax :p
[10:57:38] <ari-free> I do. but some of the examples were of long strings
[10:58:11] <ari-free> I wanted to copy the strings like "What is the temperature of the spam?"
[10:58:40] <geist> is it moist?
[10:59:06] <ari-free> who cares? who wants to eat it no matter how long it is cooked
[10:59:07] <geist> it pleases the master when the spam is warm and moist
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[12:35:11] <CIA-50> axeld * r24953 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/network/ (EthernetSettingsView.cpp NetworkWindow.cpp NetworkWindow.h):
[12:35:11] <CIA-50> Some cleanup:
[12:35:11] <CIA-50> * Reordered to have the constructor/destructor first.
[12:35:11] <CIA-50> * Two blanks between functions.
[12:35:11] <CIA-50> * Removed superfluous constructor calls.
[12:39:48] <aljen> any ideas why i've got "Kill Thread" on int size; BFile file; ...; file.GetSize((off_t*)&size); return B_OK; ?
[12:40:32] <aljen> return B_OK is called but function never returns
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[13:34:03] <CIA-50> mmlr * r24954 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/busses/usb/uhci.cpp:
[13:34:03] <CIA-50> * Initialize all of the fields in the UHCI class so in case of an error in the
[13:34:03] <CIA-50>  constructor the object can be safely deleted (as documented for bug #1473)
[13:34:03] <CIA-50> * Some simplifications by caching the Pipe object for a transfer
[13:34:03] <CIA-50> * Minor cleanup
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[13:40:39] <CIA-50> axeld * r24955 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/activitymonitor/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
[13:40:39] <CIA-50> Some more work on the ActivityMonitor:
[13:40:39] <CIA-50> * Added legend.
[13:40:39] <CIA-50> * Added network receiving/sending DataSource.
[13:40:39] <CIA-50> * Now uses the new layout engine.
[13:40:40] <CIA-50> * Added support for per CPU DataSources, and added a per CPU CPU usage
[13:40:43] <CIA-50>  DataSource.
[13:41:40] <CIA-50> axeld * r24956 /haiku/trunk/build/jam/HaikuImage: Added ActivityMonitor to the image.
[13:42:12] <CIA-50> mmlr * r24957 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/busses/usb/ehci.cpp:
[13:42:13] <CIA-50> Fully clear the EHCI members too, so an incompletely constructed object can be
[13:42:13] <CIA-50> safely deleted.
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[13:54:37] <stpere> morning
[13:54:57] <Monni> lol... it's 2 pm ;)
[13:55:09] <stpere> hehe, here it's 7:55 AM
[13:55:19] <stpere> so, it's definitely morning for me
[13:55:27] <Monni> 2:55 PM here to be exact... with summer time adjustment ;)
[13:55:28] <stpere> a little too morning for my taste actually
[13:56:39] <Monni> I should be at work around 7:30 am ;)
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[13:57:43] <stpere> ouch
[13:58:13] <stpere> I'm lucky to not have a strict schedule
[13:58:17] <warpdesign> hi there ! :)
[13:58:23] <warpdesign> any new regarding a livecd ? :)
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[15:05:05] <CIA-50> bga * r24958 /haiku/trunk/ (3 files in 3 dirs):
[15:05:05] <CIA-50> Applied patch by Herv?\195?\169 W.
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[15:42:38] <ToxicSoul1> ERROR: In procedure primitive-load-path:
[15:42:39] <ToxicSoul1> ERROR: Unable to find file "ice-9/boot-9.scm" in load path
[15:42:51] <ToxicSoul1> Anyone have any idea what the load path is?
[15:44:58] <DeadYak> I have no idea what that file even is :)
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[15:48:09] <ToxicSoul1> I found the file and can easily move it but no clue where to move it to =p
[15:48:31] <JMCS> hallo, I have some problem with the maxline objectmerge in jam! My jam is stopping the objectmerging by the haiku build image! Can someone help me? I use BeOS 5, svn + gcc-haiku-cross-compiler!
[15:50:41] <DeadYak> you need to be using Haiku's version of jam
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[15:52:21] <JMCS> I downloaded the jam.zip under the haiku-os side for beos 5 + the jam.zip for haiku. The beos is working until this mergeproblem. The haiku jam is not binary compatible and so useless!
[15:54:37] <JMCS> is there another jam.zip on an other side which has not the small MAXLINE limitation compiled in the jam?
[15:55:13] <PulkoMandy> afaik you need to compile jam from the haiku subversion tree
[15:55:22] <DeadYak> http://www.haiku-os.org/files/jam.zip - that one should
[15:55:33] <DeadYak> if that doesn't work then I'd suggest checking that you don't have two copies of jam on your disk or something
[15:55:55] <DeadYak> otherwise I can't help you, haven't touched R5 in years
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[15:57:41] <JMCS> ok the above linked jam.zip is outdated!
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[15:58:29] <JMCS> It looks like only the buildtools are workable at the moment! I just downloaded, so I will see if this works!
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[16:09:02] <Hugen_> hi all
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[16:24:56] <{Vzzz}> \o/ r24958
[16:25:08] *** {Vzzz} is now known as {V}
[16:25:49] <DeadYak> morning {V}
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[16:26:17] <{V}> good afternoon DeadYak
[16:26:58] <DeadYak> how's it going?
[16:27:32] <{V}> fine. bit hungry (I skipped lunch)
[16:27:34] *** _Megaf is now known as Megaf_
[16:27:43] <{V}> DeadYak, how about you?
[16:27:57] <DeadYak> not bad, at work though
[16:28:27] <{V}> wow! BGA applied my patch exactly as I submitted it
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[16:30:07] <Teknomancer> hi all
[16:30:11] <{V}> 'lo Teknomancer
[16:30:19] <absabs> hi Teknomancer
[16:31:03] <burfi> Congratulations guys, changes of last days make a hell of a difference!
[16:31:37] <burfi> networking works now with the lowly rtl8139!
[16:31:50] <Teknomancer> that chip is important :)
[16:31:52] <burfi> tnt driver 32 color mode works now
[16:32:12] <Teknomancer> i'd tend to think there are still a lot of people using rtl8139
[16:32:36] <burfi> tearing on window movement is very low now, not perfect, but good
[16:32:37] <DeadYak> I was under the impression 8139 had worked for a while already, just not 100% stable
[16:33:13] <burfi> I didn't notice any work done to that driver at all
[16:33:23] <absabs> who can test this patch?
[16:33:24] <absabs> http://mail2.ustc.edu.cn/~jszhang3/rtl8139.patch
[16:33:37] <burfi> maybe network stack is simply more robust now
[16:33:54] <absabs> it synced to the FreeBSB current 8139 driver
[16:33:55] <DeadYak> absabs: synced up to latest -CURRENT?
[16:33:57] <DeadYak> ahh.
[16:34:02] <absabs> yes
[16:34:11] <absabs> it's very easy
[16:34:25] <DeadYak> Kokito uses an 8139 I believe
[16:34:44] <absabs> but I have no rtl8139 to test
[16:34:55] <burfi> couldn't get logged in with Vision though
[16:34:57] <PulkoMandy> nice, i'll be able to network from haiku :)
[16:35:19] <DeadYak> absabs: I can apply the patch to my local tree and have Kokito test it next time I build him a new image
[16:35:26] <burfi> hostname resolution fails. at least that is the error shown
[16:35:39] <absabs> ah, DeakYak, thanks
[16:36:07] <DeadYak> np, will let you know
[16:36:25] <DeadYak> I don't have an 8139 myself to test with either so....
[16:36:40] <absabs> :P
[16:36:45] <absabs> I.C
[16:37:42] <DeadYak> though the stack itself seems fine here, at least I haven't had issues using it with nfroce
[16:37:44] <DeadYak> nforce*
[16:38:08] <absabs> yep
[16:38:29] <burfi> firefox drawing bugs are really annoying
[16:39:19] <DeadYak> and hard to track down :)
[16:39:27] <burfi> but great to be able to surf from Haiku now
[16:39:30] <DeadYak> to fix that we'd need a testcase that replicates the problem
[16:39:37] <DeadYak> burfi: Links works too :)
[16:39:44] <Teknomancer> is the haiku webkit port progressing still ?
[16:40:04] <DeadYak> once leavengood gets back to it, yes, he's been busy dealing with the Haiku, Inc. transition and other real life stuff
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[16:40:39] <Teknomancer> ah ok
[16:40:55] <burfi> so, when will Haiku Alpha will be announced ;-)
[16:41:31] <absabs> pre Alpha:P
[16:41:58] <burfi> it's all coming together quickly now - I'm truly impressed
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[16:50:00] <burfi> there is something for me to whine about though
[16:50:36] <DeadYak> there's pleny of things to whine about :P
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[16:50:39] <burfi> Haiku no more sees my optical drive
[16:50:42] <DeadYak> plenty too
[16:50:52] <DeadYak> burfi: are you using the ata or ide stack?
[16:51:05] <DeadYak> ata doesn't do ATAPI yet is why I ask
[16:51:06] <burfi> err?
[16:51:27] <DeadYak> burfi: do you build your own images or what?
[16:51:38] <burfi> bootstrap from linux
[16:51:53] <DeadYak> burfi: ah.
[16:52:05] <DeadYak> burfi: you haven't changed the Jamfile for the bus managers at all have you?
[16:52:08] <DeadYak> oh wait
[16:52:12] <DeadYak> I know what you mean
[16:52:21] <DeadYak> you're running into a problem because of the vfs rewrites
[16:52:29] <DeadYak> at the moment all filesystems other than BFS are broken
[16:52:29] <burfi> haven't changed the build
[16:52:36] <DeadYak> so regular ISO CDs won't currently be recognized
[16:52:37] <burfi> ok
[16:52:51] <DeadYak> that'll be fixed once Ingo's done reworking the VFS APIs
[16:53:07] <burfi> good  to know not some od quirk
[16:53:12] <burfi> *odd
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[17:27:30] <MauriceK> hey DeadYak
[17:27:42] <DeadYak> how's it going?
[17:29:57] <MauriceK> hm... preparing myself for flight to Vancouver tomorrow
[17:31:09] <DeadYak> Vancouver? o.0
[17:31:16] <DeadYak> work-related?
[17:31:20] <MauriceK> yup
[17:31:27] <DeadYak> how long? :)
[17:31:30] <MauriceK> flying there, have meeting, fly back
[17:31:37] <MauriceK> stay in vancouver? 26 hours
[17:32:22] <DeadYak> wouldn't it be more efficient for you to just participate by phone? :P
[17:32:54] <MauriceK> did that before... personal attendance is requested
[17:33:06] <DeadYak> ah
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[17:44:48] <xcasex> hey Technix lets port apt to haiku ;D
[17:46:47] <Monni> lol
[17:47:11] <DeadYak> ....no thanks
[17:48:13] <MauriceK> hm... sooner or later something like that is needed, and apt is not the worst solution in my opinion
[17:48:22] <MauriceK> nobody wants to go to bebits :P
[17:48:36] <DeadYak> depends
[17:48:44] <DeadYak> a package manager can't give you things like ratings and comments for instance
[17:49:00] <xcasex> DeadYak: a frontend could :>
[17:49:01] <DeadYak> if I'm looking for something and there's several possible solutions, I have better things to do with my time than blindly install and try out each one :)
[17:49:21] <MauriceK> DeadYak: see, there we have a difference :)
[17:49:27] <MauriceK> though I have to say, I'm more linear
[17:49:30] <DeadYak> either way though, I've had enough bad experiences with linux package management that I'm really not inclined to want their tools
[17:49:33] <MauriceK> the first that fits, will stay
[17:50:17] <xcasex> apt is good. its the best of the breed imho, it even has package repo snapshots so you cna roll back if you futz up
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[18:08:22] <tqh> ho ho ho!
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[18:11:03] <Hugen_> hi all
[18:11:06] <Hugen_> hi aljen
[18:11:56] <aljen> hey Hugen_
[18:12:26] <Hugen_> aljen: how mount usb drive?
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[18:12:45] <aljen> dunno, never did that ;P
[18:13:32] <DeadYak> usb disks won't work right now if they're FAT formatted
[18:14:04] <DeadYak> otherwise it'll just show up in Tracker's mount menu
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[18:16:00] <Hugen_> anybody know: how mount usb flash drive etc?
[18:17:48] <DeadYak> I just said
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[18:23:57] <Hugen_> I must write this problem in forum :/
[18:24:21] <DeadYak> it's known.
[18:24:30] <DeadYak> Ingo's VFS rewrites temporarily broke every FS other than BFS
[18:24:40] <DeadYak> so unless your USB flash stick is formatted with that, you're not going to be mounting it any time soon
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[18:32:33] <Hugen_> aha
[18:33:18] <Hugen_> DeadYak: FAT too?
[18:34:26] <DeadYak> yes.
[18:34:30] <DeadYak> that's what I just said :)
[18:34:33] <DeadYak> nothing except BFS works right now.
[18:34:38] <Hugen_> ok
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[18:35:46] <DeadYak> hi Alex
[18:35:53] <aroman> morning!
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[18:36:26] <CIA-50> axeld * r24959 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/accelerants/common/ (create_display_modes.cpp ddc.c decode_edid.c): (log message trimmed)
[18:36:26] <CIA-50> Committed patch by Gerald Zajac, thanks!:
[18:36:26] <CIA-50> * Enabled testing the checksum of the EDID info.
[18:36:26] <CIA-50> * Added a version check of the EDID info.
[18:36:26] <CIA-50> * Added more debug output.
[18:36:27] <CIA-50> * In the ModeList class, changes were made to how the refresh rate is
[18:36:28] <CIA-50>  computed and used. Previously, some of the basic VESA modes were not
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[18:44:35] <aroman> ahh... perfect way to begin a Monday morning: breakfast burrito and a coffee from starbucks :P
[18:45:13] <DeadYak> haha.
[18:45:18] <DeadYak> breakfast burrito from where?
[18:46:06] <Technix> ari-free: here you go buddy: http://www.macrumors.com/2008/04/14/openmac-promises-399-headless-mac-but-not-from-apple/
[18:46:10] <Technix> :)
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[18:46:54] <aroman> DeadYak: Qualcomm cafeteria :P
[18:47:03] <aroman> in San Diego
[18:47:44] <DeadYak> aroman: ahh
[18:48:06] <DeadYak> aroman: with respect to the intel accelerant btw, it's automatically loaded if the intel extreme driver has published any devices
[18:48:26] <DeadYak> aroman: do you see anything in syslog of the intel extreme driver identifying any devices or.. ?
[18:48:27] <aroman> DeadYak: yeah, I'm thinking I might have a product id that's not recognized by the driver...
[18:48:32] <aroman> DeadYak: nope
[18:48:39] <DeadYak> what's your venid/devid?
[18:48:42] <DeadYak> actually, venid will be 8086
[18:48:46] <DeadYak> devid then :)
[18:49:11] <aroman> hmm let me see
[18:49:30] <aroman> I'm at work, but I can ssh in (the box is in linux now)
[18:49:37] <DeadYak> or
[18:49:39] <DeadYak> do you remember the model?
[18:51:58] <aroman> thank you Dell for your stupidity
[18:52:01] <aroman> Subsystem: Dell Unknown device 0151
[18:52:05] <aroman> lol
[18:52:20] <aroman> might be an issue of just programming in that product id
[18:52:37] <DeadYak> wait, it's not published as an Intel?
[18:52:42] <aroman> it is
[18:53:13] <DeadYak> what does lspci -nn list it as?
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[18:54:08] <aroman> 8086:2572
[18:54:15] <aroman> Intel Corporation 82865G Integrated Graphics Controller
[18:55:07] <DeadYak> 2572...
[18:55:19] <DeadYak>         {0x2572, INTEL_TYPE_85x, "i865G"},
[18:55:23] <aroman> where are the product ids being matched with the device in the source code?
[18:55:24] <DeadYak> driver claims to support it
[18:55:26] <aroman> hrrm
[18:55:28] <DeadYak> driver.cpp
[18:55:40] <aroman> let me take another look at the syslog then
[18:55:43] <aroman> where's driver.cpp?
[18:55:44] <DeadYak> see kSupportedDevices[]
[18:58:47] <DeadYak> assuming you enabled tracing in that part of the driver :)
[18:59:09] <DeadYak> driver.cpp is in src/add-ons/kernel/drivers/graphics/intel_extreme
[18:59:12] <DeadYak> sorry, I didn't see that question
[18:59:21] <DeadYak> bear in mind BeOS/Haiku graphics drivers have two components to them
[18:59:22] <aroman> right... :( sorry... still a bit new to the Haiku source code
[18:59:27] <DeadYak> the kernel driver that sets up the device itself
[18:59:35] <DeadYak> and the accelerant that the app_server users from userspace to manipulate the dev
[18:59:41] <DeadYak> uses*
[19:00:20] <aroman> ok, so to enable tracing, I would go in the UserBuildConfig and add a line there (seen it in the sample one, i think) right?
[19:00:48] <DeadYak> actually...not quite
[19:00:51] <aroman> the DEBUG on?
[19:01:00] <DeadYak> in driver.cpp you'll see
[19:01:05] <DeadYak> #define TRACE_DRIVER
[19:01:09] <DeadYak> possibly commented out
[19:01:13] <DeadYak> see if that's enabled or not
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[19:02:03] <aroman> no, TRACE_DRIVER is defined
[19:02:19] <DeadYak> hmm
[19:02:42] <DeadYak> look for publish_devices() in the log then
[19:02:58] <DeadYak>         TRACE((DEVICE_NAME ": publish_devices()\n"));
[19:03:06] <DeadYak> and         TRACE((DEVICE_NAME ": init_hardware()\n"));
[19:03:14] <DeadYak> both possibly of interest if you want to see whether it detected anything
[19:03:16] <aroman> nothing from the intel_extreme
[19:03:22] <DeadYak> hmm
[19:03:28] <DeadYak> weird, it should have recognized that ID
[19:03:51] <DeadYak> actually
[19:03:58] <DeadYak> what does the class base and subsystem for that show up as?
[19:04:36] <aroman> ok, does Haiku remember that I started it using the VESA driver? Could it perhaps still be starting up in the same mode?
[19:04:57] <DeadYak> unless config/settings/kernel/drivers/vesa is present, it shouldn't remember that
[19:06:48] <aroman> nono... it' can't be because I applied that patch for EDID and then overwrote the partition... and then booted to it, so whatever was there before should've been gone
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[19:15:15] <Stargater> re
[19:15:18] <AndrevS> 'llo
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[19:17:17] <DeadYak> hi dr_evil
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[19:19:24] <dr_evil> hello
[19:19:41] <DeadYak> how're things?
[19:20:35] <dr_evil> just got home from work, but ok so far
[19:20:48] <Teknomancer> nite all
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[19:20:55] <DeadYak> dr_evil: ah
[19:21:03] <DeadYak> dr_evil: has work been a bit less stressful lately?
[19:21:11] <DeadYak> I remember for a while there you were working crazy hours
[19:22:55] <dr_evil> yes, less stress in general
[19:24:02] <DeadYak> glad to hear :)
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[19:39:09] <Technix> aroman: I just finished working it out, currently I owe 150mil minimum to MPAA alone
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[19:39:25] <Technix> assuming they want 25,000 per file
[19:39:38] <Monni> rotflmao
[19:39:58] <Technix> maybe I can get a discount? :P
[19:39:59] <pyCube> nice
[19:40:02] <pyCube> heh
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[19:40:05] <pyCube> bulk discount
[19:40:54] <Technix> thats 3600 episodes (I cannot really tell unless I somehow find a way to get exact episode count per show, per season, en masse), and about 1000 movies
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[19:43:09] <Technix> hey dane!
[19:44:27] * aroman has no comment to Technix's estimate
[19:44:29] <aroman> :P
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[19:45:26] <aroman> wouldn't I have to set DEBUG on <path> = 1 ; in UserBuildConfig in order to see dprintf's from that file?
[19:51:02] <DeadYak> aroman: nope.
[19:51:09] <ThomHolwerda> new comic
[19:51:09] <ThomHolwerda> http://www.osnews.com/comics
[19:51:21] <DeadYak> dprintf should always go to syslog regardless
[19:51:48] <Mazon> where the * is the general introduction to Haiku VM paper? - can't find it anywhere
[19:52:09] <DeadYak> the one that's been going on in the mailing list?
[19:52:14] <Mazon> yes
[19:52:26] <Mazon> somehow I never got the mail it seems
[19:52:32] <Mazon> neither did gmane
[19:52:48] <DeadYak> try checking freelist's archives for haiku-development list
[19:52:53] <DeadYak> subject was: [haiku-development] modifed:a genearl introduction to Haiku v
[19:52:56] <DeadYak> vm*
[19:53:45] <aroman> DeadYak: k
[19:54:10] <Mazon> right, found it here: http://www.freelists.org/archives/haiku-development/04-2008/msg00360.html
[19:54:11] <Mazon> thx
[19:57:05] <Mazon> very strange... I never got that mail, but I did get 4 replies to it
[19:57:25] <ThomHolwerda> Mazon: same here iirc
[19:57:30] <ThomHolwerda> i wondered about that
[19:57:52] <ThomHolwerda> time for espresso
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[20:00:01] <ThomHolwerda> DUDE!!!
[20:00:15] <ThomHolwerda> somebody is offering an integraph clipper machine on a dutch ebay-like site!
[20:00:22] <ThomHolwerda> FOR FREE!
[20:00:39] <{V}> a what?
[20:03:19] <{V}> nvrmnd
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[20:18:46] <helf> hola
[20:19:02] * DeadYak pets helf
[20:19:19] <helf> hey yak
[20:19:26] <helf> man, im never waiting till the last minute again
[20:19:34] <helf> fricken 9billion people at the post office
[20:19:47] <DeadYak> lol
[20:20:05] <DeadYak> why go to the post office for that? there's drop boxes everywhere
[20:20:23] <pyCube> post offices tend to be pretty sucky
[20:20:37] <pyCube> waiting in line wise
[20:20:37] <DeadYak> the employees at my local post office are surprisingly friendly
[20:21:12] <pyCube> its the waiting bit that  grates on my nerves
[20:21:24] <helf> mine are friendly
[20:21:32] <helf> yak, i didnt have any stamps or envelopes or anything
[20:22:09] <pyCube> hmm.. this roger waters album is interesting
[20:22:40] <pyCube> 'the pros and cons of hitchhiking'
[20:22:55] <DeadYak> helf: ah.
[20:23:20] <helf> on a brighter side, i found a 32mb ram card for my laptop! woo, 40mb! :D
[20:24:36] <pyCube> i spent the weekend takling to my grandfather about his parents/grandparents and how they managed to get themselves to northern california from  germany
[20:24:39] <pyCube> fascinating stuff
[20:24:47] <helf> neat
[20:26:22] <pyCube> his grandfather deserted the military and fled to the west coast of the usa
[20:26:43] <helf> what part of the german military was he in?
[20:27:11] <pyCube> dunno.. but he said 'fuck this shit' and took off
[20:27:15] <helf> lol
[20:28:08] <pyCube> his eventual wife got to new york and said 'fuck this shit' and worked as a dancer to gain passage around south america to San Fran.
[20:28:38] <helf> heh
[20:28:41] <pyCube> in like the mid 1860's
[20:28:47] <DeadYak> pyCube: she took a rather long route to get there :)
[20:28:53] <helf> so you come about your "fuck this shit" mentality genetically? ;P
[20:29:18] <pyCube> DeadYak: by land or by sea.. both were pretty long dangerous journeys back then
[20:29:22] <helf> I cant believe im excited about upping my ram to 40mb
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[20:32:42] <Monni> mine has 64 MB already... and 128 MB internal NAND ;)
[20:33:25] <helf> shaddup :P
[20:33:30] <helf> oh, its monni, ltnt :P
[20:33:45] <Monni> I'm seriously thinking installing JavaShare, but not sure how it would dial with USB modem ;)
[20:34:25] <helf> i thought about buying a new laptop.. but.. i dont use one enogh to justify it right now... :P
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[20:34:42] <Monni> mine is some ARM pda ;)
[20:35:51] <Monni> took me 5 hours to write a message to my ex-gf... damn keyboard is too small for my fingers...
[20:36:28] <Monni> I wonder how Bluetooth keyboard would work with it :)
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[20:38:28] <aroman> what is a command to cleanly shutdown haiku? something that would not ask for confirmation, but would leave syslog enough time to write the log?
[20:39:13] <DeadYak> shutdown -r
[20:39:30] <aroman> DeadYak: k, I think the -q causes problems
[20:39:40] <DeadYak> possibly :)
[20:40:16] <cps1966> touch / shutdown now
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[20:40:30] <Monni> lol...it's the old perv again ;)
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[20:41:06] <cps1966> hey gene got hit by car on his way to scholl today just got back from hospital
[20:41:24] <Technix> no major injuries I hope?
[20:41:26] <Monni> cps1966: that sucks...
[20:41:52] <helf> i almost broke my ankle friday morning
[20:41:59] <Monni> cps1966: you should see my hand... it has nice hole in it...
[20:42:04] <cps1966> no just some deep cuts in his face and wacked knee
[20:42:08] <helf> now i have a humongous bruise and have to wear an ankle brace...
[20:43:08] <cps1966> wonder how much i shpould sue for
[20:43:31] <Monni> cps1966: children are worth 2 million
[20:43:56] <Monni> USA is land of ridiculous claims :)
[20:43:59] <cps1966> well he's priceless to me
[20:44:10] <helf> sue and ill stop talking to you ;P
[20:44:19] <DeadYak> helf: how did you manage that at a library?
[20:44:24] <Monni> cps1966: Well... My mother still is associate in laws, so she knows the juridical side of the estimate...
[20:44:25] <helf> fucking litigious society...
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[20:44:41] <darklite> hello
[20:44:42] <helf> DeadYak : its rather embarrasing, and ive had a bajillion people ask me how i managed to get hurt at a library.. heh
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[20:44:51] <cps1966> well he has to suffer pain loss of school time
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[20:45:14] <helf> i stepped up on this tall .. "curb" and my foot slipped off. landed on the side of my right ankle.. 2 foot drop.. sounded like popcorn :(
[20:45:23] <DeadYak> eep
[20:45:24] <helf> and that warrents suing .. how?
[20:45:29] <helf> warrants
[20:45:33] * helf can't spell
[20:45:51] <helf> The person that hit him stopped, right? or was it a hit and run?
[20:45:54] <cps1966> well what about scares on his face
[20:46:01] <helf> wtf about them?
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[20:46:25] <helf> was the person driving like a moron or just not paying attention and turned when your kid was crossing the street?
[20:46:27] <cps1966> should he have to live with them without compensation
[20:46:43] <helf> yeah, he's alive, isnt he?
[20:47:08] <cps1966> well gene was in the crosswalk so the guy just blew the light
[20:47:12] <Monni> helf: I somersaulted 16 feet and landed on my back few years ago ... I didn't get a cent...
[20:47:13] <helf> unless they are super bad scars, they will probably disappear after awhile. you cna get stuff to put on them that makes them fade
[20:47:24] <helf> monni : ouch :P
[20:47:33] <helf> cps : oh ok, so the person was being a moron..
[20:47:43] <cps1966> yeah
[20:47:46] <helf> i'd take them to small claims court. but noone else.
[20:48:41] <Monni> better ask for more and settle on less than ask for less and get nothing...
[20:48:44] <cps1966> only 5000 limit in ohio
[20:49:00] <helf> im just sick of lawsuits
[20:49:13] <helf> everyone sues over everything with little valid reasons, most of the time.
[20:49:22] <cps1966> the guys insurance will pay
[20:49:27] <Monni> that's just to feed the poor lawyers ;)
[20:49:28] <helf> in your case, the person that hit him was super at fault and should have to pay the price.
[20:49:31] <helf> hehe
[20:49:36] <helf> we have too many lawyers :)
[20:50:04] <Monni> I like being the journalist writing about them ;)
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[20:50:44] <duaneb> meesa back
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[20:51:12] <helf> oh god, i hated that character
[20:51:12] <brechtm> what's the best host for building Haiku these days?
[20:51:30] <Monni> I get a lot of phone calls each time my article is published... People just call to wonder why didn't they know I'm a freelance journalist...
[20:51:54] <duaneb> brechtm, haiku
[20:51:57] <duaneb> :P
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[20:52:07] <duaneb> no, really it's probably linux
[20:52:31] <brechtm> I'm having trouble fetching the buildtools from the svn repository
[20:52:32] <helf> yeah..
[20:52:36] <brechtm> stalled twice
[20:52:55] <Monni> try different version of subversion ;)
[20:53:43] <brechtm> unfortunately, this is linux :)
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[20:53:48] <Hugen_> re
[20:54:18] <Monni> brechtm: I use Linux, MacOS, Windows etc... operating system is irrelevant...
[20:54:53] <brechtm> I was referring to the package management and software versions
[20:55:16] <Monni> brechtm: rpm and apt can both downgrade and upgrade packages
[20:55:22] <brechtm> svn also stalled on fetching the main haiku source tree
[20:55:32] <brechtm> but that succeeded on the second try
[20:55:46] <brechtm> I doubt it's the svn version
[20:55:47] <cps1966> just do update theen
[20:55:56] <brechtm> doesn't work
[20:56:00] <DeadYak> brechtm: Berlios just did maintenance over the weekend, perhaps there's still some issues
[20:56:02] <brechtm> I have to kill svn when it stalls
[20:56:10] <Monni> brechtm: might be just simple network congestion...
[20:56:29] <alexissoft> yes it sounds more like a client<=>server connectivity issue than an svn one
[20:56:35] <brechtm> and after repairing the checkout, it still errors when updating
[20:57:03] <DeadYak> I would probably assume issues at berlios
[20:57:04] <brechtm> perhaps it's safer to manually kill svn before it stalls
[20:57:26] <brechtm> Is it just me, or is Berlios not that dependable?
[20:57:30] <brechtm> seems to have alot of issues
[20:57:32] <Monni> sometimes toggling compression helps with stalling connection... congestion tends to fsck up zlib compressed connections...
[20:58:23] <brechtm> ctrl-c followed by svn up seems to work
[20:58:36] <brechtm> I'll abort it now and then
[20:58:36] <alexissoft> here svn checkout looks like working
[20:58:59] <brechtm> and make a copy of the partially checked out directory
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[21:03:28] <DeadYak> hi Kokito
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[21:08:42] <ThomHolwerda> Kokito: how did lugradio go?
[21:09:15] <ari-free> oh yeah..lugradio
[21:09:23] <Kokito> it was interesting Thom_Holwerda. will try to have a write up about it sometime tomorrow.
[21:10:09] <ThomHolwerda> great Kokito :)
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[21:11:49] <ari-free> who else joined you?
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[21:12:32] <cps1966> was it carried on beosradio
[21:12:36] <Kokito> ari-free, Scott was there with me, and my son came on sunday to help out
[21:12:56] <Kokito> cps1966, no, it as on LugRadio :)
[21:13:07] <ari-free> oh cool
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[21:13:39] <cps1966> well should have recored it for dane to broadcast
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[21:17:19] <ari-free> did haiku have any probs during the demo? I'm wondering when it is safe for me to test :)
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[21:19:01] <ari-free> welcome back
[21:19:23] <aroman> ugh... I quit... I can't get a good syslog remotely, even though I waited 30 seconds at the end of the boot script before rebooting :(
[21:20:05] <aroman> I don't see any prints from app_server whatsoever.. I'll have to be there to see what's going on...
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[21:30:33] <ari-free> I saw an interesting article about firefox users
[21:30:54] <ari-free> http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2008/04/why-downloading.html
[21:31:23] <ari-free> Example: 25% of the visitors we track at Squidoo use Firefox, which is not surprising. But 50% of the people who actually build pages on the site are Firefox users. Twice as many.
[21:31:25] <ari-free> This is true of bloggers, of Twitter users, of Flickr users... everywhere you look, if someone is using Firefox, they're way more likely to be using other power tools online.
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[21:34:53] <Thom_Holwerda> since when are blogs, twitter, and flickr "power tools"
[21:35:06] <Thom_Holwerda> they are actually the opposite of power tools
[21:35:16] <Thom_Holwerda> a power tool in this context would be notepad.
[21:38:23] <brechtm> bah, stalled again
[21:39:21] <ari-free> notepad is a power tool? notepad will share your thoughts and pics with all your friends?
[21:43:06] <ari-free> a power tool is like an electric drill
[21:44:18] <ari-free> notepad is more like a Philips screwdriver
[21:46:10] <Thom_Holwerda> power tools in the context of software usually refer to tools used by experienced (power) users
[21:46:25] <Thom_Holwerda> since a blogging tool is just an easy to way run a website
[21:46:33] <Thom_Holwerda> the power tool equiv. is writing one yourself
[21:46:38] <Thom_Holwerda> que notepad.
[21:46:44] <Thom_Holwerda> cue*
[21:47:09] <Thom_Holwerda> every braindead idiot can blog/twitter/flickr
[21:47:23] <Thom_Holwerda> i mean, im the living proof
[21:47:30] <Thom_Holwerda> except for twitter, i dont use that.
[21:47:34] <ari-free> they give structure. many bloggers like to build the structure first with the tools and then dig into the html
[21:48:03] <Thom_Holwerda> 99% of blogs use default themes, with little to no modifications
[21:48:06] * brechtm thinks the car analogy is next up
[21:48:19] <Thom_Holwerda> only the good ones, like mine, are modded to be more unique.
[21:48:47] <Thom_Holwerda> think of cars
[21:48:48] <Thom_Holwerda> :P
[21:49:27] <ari-free> but most people don't even blog. they just browse
[21:50:25] <ari-free> so there are different levels
[21:50:42] <Thom_Holwerda> yeah well those arent bloggers now are they
[21:50:57] <ari-free> facebook. not much different user than a simple browser
[21:50:57] <Thom_Holwerda> so they are not relevant to the issue of... bloggers.
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[21:51:57] <ari-free> but the article is talking about firefox users. that they are different than most of the web
[21:52:31] <ari-free> I'm sure if you polled them you'd find more firefox users use notepad than everyone else
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[21:59:59] <Stargater> re
[22:04:13] <Technix> ari-free: what color is purple in your world?
[22:04:29] <duaneb> ari-free, I doubt it
[22:04:51] <duaneb> that means that 30+% of the web is more than simple browsers
[22:05:00] <duaneb> rather, than a simple browser
[22:08:29] * brechtm yawns
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[22:14:48] <justeco> Do people still like BeBoxes?  I was reading something on OSNews that made me remember I have a BeBox I would be willing to sell for a decent price...  It looks like one hasn't even been on eBay for a while.
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[22:15:58] <DeadYak> justeco: I'm not getting rid of mine :)
[22:16:52] <Thom_Holwerda> justeco: do something good for the world, and give it to me :).
[22:17:55] <justeco> Thom_Holwerda, I'll bite.  How will giving it to you help the world?
[22:18:22] <Thom_Holwerda> it'll make one person on this planet happier.
[22:19:05] <Thom_Holwerda> in all seriousness, what kind is it?
[22:19:06] <justeco> I also have CDs of several BeOS developer releases.  The BeBox is a dual 66 PPC with an updated vid card (Matrox I think) and I seem to recall updating the SCSI HD as well.  It's still in perfect working condition(last time I had it on) and runs R5 just fine.
[22:19:10] <Thom_Holwerda> 66 or 133?
[22:19:12] <Thom_Holwerda> ah.
[22:20:03] <xcasex> justeco: pm me the price you have in mind.
[22:20:10] <justeco> It also has a bit of history behind it...  It belonged to a pretty well known app developer, but I'm not sure how he would feel about me dropping his name.
[22:20:39] <brechtm> is it signed?
[22:21:02] <justeco> brechtm, No...  That hadn't occurred to me at the time or I may have asked him to.
[22:21:19] <justeco> We were casual friends.  He left it to me when he moved.
[22:21:39] <DeadYak> one of mine used to belong to chrish
[22:21:44] <brechtm> so at least it's clean :)
[22:23:25] <justeco> Yeah.  It's blue.  Nice lights on the front.
[22:24:11] <justeco> I think my partner is starting to wonder why I still have it.  She could really care less about its cool factor.
[22:24:38] <brechtm> maybe painting it in pink would help?
[22:25:03] <justeco> No...  She's not really that kind of gal.
[22:25:37] <justeco> Very practical.  If she thought I got a bit of cash for it she would be wondering why I hadn't done it years ago.
[22:26:33] <justeco> I really need to get Haiku running on something again.  I've picked up C++ again and want to port a couple of my little gizmos for fun.
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[22:28:18] <duaneb> I've spent the last half hour playing kdlhangman
[22:28:21] <duaneb> I need a project :P
[22:29:31] <hUMUNGUs> duaneb: got a project for you. SopCast or TVAnts for Haiku :-)
[22:29:44] <duaneb> what are either of those? :P
[22:29:51] <hUMUNGUs> streaming apps.
[22:29:54] <oco> there is some bugs to fix too :-)
[22:30:13] <duaneb> what are the optional apps?
[22:30:32] <hUMUNGUs> hm.. PPstream
[22:30:39] <duaneb> well, I'd like to continue on python, but my linux partition got hosed
[22:31:09] <hUMUNGUs> i c
[22:31:43] <duaneb> is subversion an extra package?
[22:32:52] <oco> duaneb : at least there is a separate package at haiku-os.org
[22:33:26] <oco> i am not sure that it is in the development package
[22:34:16] <DeadYak> there isn't a native svn package yet
[22:34:27] <DeadYak> you can use the R5 one though
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[22:35:18] <oco> i use the R5 one...
[22:35:31] <duaneb> ok
[22:35:44] <duaneb> not sure how to install packages...
[22:38:12] <duaneb> ok, going to try native again
[22:38:17] <duaneb> wish me luck
[22:38:26] <duaneb> erm, what do I do if I have no internet?
[22:38:30] <duaneb> for debugging purposes?
[22:38:35] <duaneb> I can snap a digital photo
[22:38:43] <duaneb> but... of what?
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[23:24:58] <TuneTracker> If I remember correctly...under BeOS 5 Pro, there were two encoders that dealt with MP3.  One worked well, the other didbn't.  I *think* the one that worked looked like wav/mp3 when you selected it from inside a program.  The troublesome one looked like mp3/mp3.  Does that ring a bell for anybody besides me?
[23:25:54] <DeadYak> off the top of my head, R5 Pro only came with that bladeenc encoder, if you're seeing a second one it's probably something that was installed by another package
[23:26:51] <mmu_man> do you mean encoder as in Media Kit encoder add-on or encoder *app*
[23:26:52] <mmu_man>  ?
[23:27:28] <DeadYak> I'd assume encoder add-on since he mentioned selecting it from inside a program
[23:28:04] <DeadYak> though offhand the only program I can think of where you'd select it like that is MediaConverter+
[23:28:33] <pyCube> i remember using gogo
[23:30:24] <TuneTracker> mmu_man I think it was an add-on
[23:30:38] <TuneTracker> Because, yes, it shows up in TimeTracker only after you copy the add-on to the add-on folder.
[23:30:47] <TuneTracker> But it's crashing TimeTracker each time I try to use it.
[23:30:48] <mmu_man> cause there are some app that have their own encoder
[23:30:49] <TuneTracker> Never used to.
[23:30:58] <mmu_man> wasn't the R5 one lame based ?
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[23:31:16] <TuneTracker> mmu_man I thought it was based on Bladeenc
[23:31:37] <TuneTracker> Wish stippi was here.  He wrote TimeTracker  :-)
[23:32:19] <DeadYak> mmu_man: I thought it was bladeenc, I remember people complaining because everyone thought it'd be an actual fraunhofer encoder or something along those lines
[23:33:25] <TuneTracker> ding dong dangit
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[23:38:12] <brechtm> goodnight
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[23:47:40] * ari-free back
[23:48:53] <ToxicSoul1> Hey so I'm following this on my linux box.. (gave up on the solaris compile..) http://www.haiku-os.org/documents/dev/getting_linux_developer_tools -- is there anything more detailed or is this all I really need to do? =p
[23:50:29] <Kokito> ToxicSoul1, what linux distro?
[23:51:54] <aroman> ToxicSoul1: install developer tools for your linux distro :P This is distro specific. For ubuntu, or most debian-derivates, just apt-get install build-essential. More than that, in the ReadMe.cross-compiling (or something like that) it lists some more packages (like gawk, and texinfo, off the top of my head) that need to be installed.
[23:52:13] <mmu_man> DeadYak the decoder was fh
[23:52:35] <Kokito> ToxicSoul1, if you use Ubuntu, this may help: http://www.haiku-os.org/documents/dev/building_haiku_on_ubuntu_linux_step_by_step
[23:53:46] <ToxicSoul1> Yeah I have all of the build utils, doing ./configure --build-cross-tools ../buildtools right now
[23:54:10] <ToxicSoul1> binutils and gcc for cross compilation have been built successfully!
[23:55:31] <ToxicSoul1> Kokito, okay your link has two more steps.. which is what I was looking for
[23:55:37] <ToxicSoul1> thanks!
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   April 14, 2008  
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