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   April 8, 2008  
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[00:01:44] <nielx> I'm concerned about the social component of cars

[00:01:49] <nielx> they are in essence anti-social

[00:02:14] <Thom_Holwerda> nielx: that's not true

[00:02:16] <nielx> you can see that here in Rotterdam, because it was completely swept away in the second world war, it was easy during the 70s to reform it into an auto city

[00:02:42] <Thom_Holwerda> you'd be amazed how much social interaction is needed to properly partake in dutch  traffic

[00:02:53] <ari-free> i like cars. they are very social. you need one to go out on a date

[00:03:00] <Thom_Holwerda> without it, you would have severe crashes continiously

[00:03:12] <ari-free> you can't expect a girl to go out with you by subway

[00:03:23] <Thom_Holwerda> ari-free: it's normal in amsterdam...

[00:03:29] <Thom_Holwerda> no student in amsterdam has a car

[00:03:37] <Thom_Holwerda> i do, but i dont live in amsterdam :D

[00:03:42] <ari-free> yeah but the subways here are very...not so good for dates

[00:03:47] <Thom_Holwerda> only study there

[00:03:54] <nielx> streetcars are good

[00:03:59] <nielx> streetcar named desire ;-)

[00:04:06] <ari-free> i don't have a car

[00:04:16] <ari-free> i have to borrow one for a date

[00:04:21] <nielx> people are in essence locked up in their cars

[00:04:29] <nielx> most vehicles are occupied by one person

[00:04:34] <ari-free> otherwise i don't use them

[00:04:39] <nielx> which means that person shuts himself off from any social interaction

[00:04:43] <Thom_Holwerda> nielx: social interaction is not just talking

[00:04:55] <Thom_Holwerda> like i said, driving a car involves SO MUCH social interaction

[00:05:18] <Thom_Holwerda> esp. in traffic jams, you communicate continiously

[00:05:40] <ari-free> so i find it the opposite. i can walk, take the bus by subway myself but if I need to go with someone I need a car

[00:06:10] <nielx> not true, we have designed roads - with right of way, traffic lights, pedestrian crossings - in such a way that it moves responsibility from human intereaction to traffic regulations

[00:06:13] <ari-free> i can't expect the other person to go through the hassle of standing in a crowded bus or walking long distances

[00:06:21] <mmu_man> right, social interaction includes sending unvoluntary non-verbal message, virus and bacteria exchange also

[00:06:44] * mmu_man says, sneezing

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[00:06:54] <Thom_Holwerda> nielx: you dont drive often, do you...?

[00:07:14] <nielx> actually, I drive a lot, but I tend to avoid cities and peak hours

[00:07:26] <Thom_Holwerda> if you believe traffic rules negate the need for social interaction while driving... then it MUST mean you are either a very bad driver, or simply have little to no experience with it

[00:08:45] <ari-free> if you take public transit by yourself you can just sleep there

[00:08:48] <nielx>  I think you are indeed misunderstanding, an 'equal' crossing invites all participant

[00:08:56] <nielx> (let me finish :-))

[00:09:00] <ari-free> you can't sleep if you're driving

[00:09:29] <mmu_man> oh, and social interaction includes spreading samples of your genetic makeup, which can be dangerous :)

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[00:10:04] <nielx> s to interact with each other: traffic rules are designed for human interaction. Traffic signs (right-of-way) and traffic lights dispose of any human responsibility, and make the traffic antisocial

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[00:10:28] <ari-free> but you have to follow them

[00:10:30] <Thom_Holwerda> nielx: the problem is that right-of-way is theoretical

[00:10:45] <Thom_Holwerda> you STILL have to make contact with the driver who has to give it to you

[00:10:50] <ari-free> why do people follow the rules

[00:10:51] <Thom_Holwerda> to confirm you get it

[00:11:11] <Thom_Holwerda> if you dont do that, you might be in for a surprise.

[00:11:28] <mmu_man> nielx in vietnam I heard noone follows traffic signs, I suppose they are more social :)

[00:11:52] <nielx> as a pedestrian in urban environments I know that whenever I cross a zebra (inherently a right-of-way for the pedestrian) it is better not to try to make contact with drivers, because they tend to assume you are giving them right of way. instead I pretend not to see them and instead just cross. This enforces my (non-social) right of way and forces them to stop

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[00:12:49] <mmu_man> nielx I usually wave to them *after* engaging to thank them :p

[00:13:18] <mmu_man> koki_haiku looks like you have more luck than me on networking

[00:13:40] <nielx> mmu_man: that's the way to do it :-P

[00:13:53] <Begasus> hi koki_haiku

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[00:13:59] * ari-free brushing on his web 2.0 social skills

[00:14:03] <koki_haiku> mmu_man :)

[00:14:06] <koki_haiku> hi Begasus

[00:14:12] <koki_haiku> hi nielx

[00:14:18] <ari-free> ok this facebook is getting too addicting

[00:14:35] <ari-free> i formed a haiku facebook group

[00:14:36] <koki_haiku> today I experienced the "can only boot into the installer" bug :)

[00:14:48] <nielx> hi koki_haiku

[00:14:57] <ari-free> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=10726681940

[00:15:15] <koki_haiku> nielx, will reply to your email on haiku-web later :)

[00:15:17] <koki_haiku> bbiab

[00:15:42] <Begasus> going down here

[00:15:45] <Begasus> g'night peeps

[00:15:52] <nielx> sleep well Begasus !

[00:16:09] <Begasus> will try ;)

[00:16:11] <Begasus> same there !

[00:16:15] <Begasus> plop

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[00:17:39] <nielx> good koki_haiku :-)

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[00:28:33] <mmadia> $time_of_day

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[00:30:32] <andybe> mmu_man: night

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[00:32:45] <nielx> hi mmadia

[00:32:53] <nielx> I manged to compile cairo on haiku

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[00:35:47] <mmu_man> great

[00:36:00] <mmu_man>  [00:32] <nielx> hi mmadia

[00:36:01] <mmu_man>  [00:33] <nielx> I manged to compile cairo on haiku

[00:36:05] <mmu_man> I think he missed that :)

[00:36:16] <nielx> ah, thanks mmu_man  :-)

[00:36:17] <mmadia42> yep.    that's excellent nielx!

[00:37:07] <mmadia42> for some bleeping bleep bleep reason,  MDR keeps trying to send an 80mb email even though i've killed the processed,  deleted the email,  emptied the trash,  ran chkbfs ,  ... ,

[00:37:27] <nielx> it took quite a lot of effort though

[00:37:40] <mmadia42> did you document the process? : )

[00:37:53] <nielx> I created a git repository in the process

[00:38:35] <mmadia42> nice!

[00:39:15] <mmadia42> and axel fixed bug 2024!

[00:40:25] <Thom_Holwerda> this is touching :/

[00:40:30] <ari-free> too bad chatzilla thinks all bugs belong to mozilla

[00:40:35] <nielx> :-)

[00:40:35] <Thom_Holwerda> the only two american refugees in the netherlands :s

[00:40:39] <nielx> had the same thing, ari-free :-P

[00:41:31] <ari-free> as if mozilla is the only software with bugs

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[00:46:58] <mmadia42> nielx what version of cairo and what other software did you need to port?

[00:47:11] <nielx> Well, most software didn't need a port

[00:47:32] <nielx> I needed to install the pkg-conf file of libpng and the configuration app of freetype

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[00:47:49] <nielx> then I needed to install libxml, which needed some tweaks, and fontconfig

[00:48:13] <mmadia42> could you make  a post at bezilla or somewhere?  i'm sure at least tqh and tigerdog would love to hear about it.

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[00:52:12] <nielx> well, I want to do it step by step, first I wnat to publish a proper port of git

[00:57:17] <mmadia42> anything that you'd like help with?

[00:57:47] <nielx> not right now

[00:57:56] <nielx> there are some patches that need to get into haiku

[00:57:59] <mmadia42> eg, trying your build instructions or ... ?

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[01:02:35] * mmadia42 shower

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[01:04:42] <Kokito> haiku does not like me today

[01:05:05] <Kokito> it crashes and upon reboot will only let me go into the installer

[01:05:23] <stpere> hi

[01:05:26] <stpere> Jorge?

[01:05:34] <DeadYak> Kokito: what build is that image?

[01:05:53] <mmadia_> DeadYak 2024?  : )

[01:06:01] <DeadYak> mmadia_: that's why I'm asking...

[01:06:10] <DeadYak> someone mentioned the build factory had stopped making new images for a few days now

[01:06:34] <Kokito> yes stpere

[01:06:41] * DeadYak prods Kokito

[01:06:42] <Kokito> DeadYak, let me check

[01:06:43] <ari-free> http://pash.sourceforge.net/ powershell for unix

[01:06:57] <DeadYak> Kokito: you want one that's 24853 or newer

[01:07:11] <Kokito> that would be nice DeadYak

[01:07:25] <DeadYak> Kokito: I can make you one if you'll give me a few minutes

[01:07:34] <Kokito> no rush at all

[01:07:42] <DeadYak> lemme see how far my other box is with a checkout

[01:08:06] <Kokito> are the new builds supposed to address the problem that I described?

[01:08:19] <AnEvilYak> Kokito: 24853 fixed that exact problem

[01:08:47] <AnEvilYak> hm...still in the middle of gdb

[01:09:38] <AnEvilYak> brb

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[01:09:42] <Kokito> AnEvilYak, no problem. whenever it is ready, would be nice if you posted the URL privately

[01:09:47] <Kokito> oops

[01:10:24] <DeadYak> Kokito: k

[01:10:32] <DeadYak> should only take like two minutes

[01:13:49] <stpere> Kokito: next year, my plan is to go to a WalterCon of some sort :)

[01:14:08] * Kokito hides

[01:14:30] <stpere> :P

[01:14:38] <Kokito> the WalterCon specter is haunting /me

[01:14:41] <Kokito> :P

[01:15:02] <Kokito> stpere, refresh my memory: where are you located?

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[01:15:15] <DeadYak> was it Quebec perchance?

[01:15:32] <DeadYak> or am I thinking of someone else..

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[01:17:06] <Kokito> stpere, how far is Columbus from where you are?

[01:17:34] <stpere> Quebec, yes

[01:17:53] <stpere> so, it's about a two day car ride I guess

[01:18:05] <DeadYak> Kokito: as in Ohio?

[01:18:30] <Kokito> yes

[01:18:39] <Kokito> ouch

[01:18:56] <Kokito> two day car ride is not what I would consider close :)

[01:18:59] <mmu_man> bleh, using \ for folder separator on a unix shell, even ported is lame

[01:19:46] <stpere> from our standard it is :)

[01:19:47] <nielx> good night

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[01:19:57] <stpere> I'm in extreme east of Quebec

[01:20:07] <stpere> if I were in montreal, it would be much better

[01:20:35] <Kokito> mmu_man, you are using bleh too often these days :P

[01:21:19] <mmu_man> bad mood I guess

[01:21:34] <mmu_man> having been locked down to bed the whole day does't help

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[01:23:25] <mmadia_> i love malty beers.

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[01:23:52] <Kokito> mmu_man, locked down to bed? you have a new gf? :P

[01:24:40] <mmu_man> backache

[01:25:14] <Kokito> ouch

[01:26:01] <pyCube> thats no where near as nice as bed-ridden due to new gf

[01:26:19] * Kokito nods

[01:26:21] <DeadYak> hey pyCube

[01:26:24] <DeadYak> had an off the wall question for ya

[01:26:27] <pyCube> ok

[01:26:30] <pyCube> hi

[01:26:31] <pyCube> heh

[01:26:38] <DeadYak> is there any good python framework for database access?

[01:26:42] <pyCube> yes

[01:26:45] <Kokito> pyCube, Haiku booth # at LugRadio is 16

[01:26:49] <DeadYak> pyCube: which?

[01:27:02] <pyCube> DeadYak: what sort of db access are you talking about?

[01:27:11] <DeadYak> pyCube: MySQL/PostgreSQL/ODBC

[01:28:20] <pyCube> DeadYak:  i really like https://storm.canonical.com/

[01:28:38] <DeadYak> oh nice

[01:28:43] <ari-free> says migue lde  icaza will be there

[01:28:50] <DeadYak> pyCube: thanks!

[01:28:55] <pyCube> DeadYak: np

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[01:37:47] <mmadia> DeadYak you're working with python these days?

[01:38:19] <DeadYak> mmadia: it was potentially for a project at work

[01:38:22] <pyCube> pssh.. all the cool kids are

[01:38:49] <burfi> they use Ruby now :P

[01:38:57] <mmadia> pyCube , i still fiddle with python here and there... though i haven't gotten into using the Bethon bindings.

[01:39:06] <pyCube> nah, youre confusing 'cool' with 'lame'

[01:39:17] <pyCube> :-p

[01:39:19] <DeadYak> pyCube: Rails pwnz j00

[01:39:24] <DeadYak> ;-)

[01:39:28] <pyCube> heh

[01:39:33] <DeadYak> j/k

[01:39:34] <burfi> just mocking

[01:39:42] <DeadYak> honestly haven't dinked with RoR at all

[01:39:44] <burfi> never used Ruby myse;f

[01:40:10] <pyCube> i have had a few brushes with it..

[01:40:17] <pyCube> ..meh

[01:40:19] <pyCube> heh

[01:41:26] <pyCube> does anybody use ruby for anything other than rails?

[01:41:31] <ozy`> I do

[01:41:55] <ozy`> and it's getting great footholds on OS X lately

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[01:42:27] <ozy`> go into #ruby-lang and ask rails questions and they will laugh at you

[01:42:51] <ozy`> (well, they'll laugh quietly, and helpfully point you towards #rubyonrails)

[01:44:01] <pyCube> ruby always looks like somebody spilled their php on python to me

[01:44:56] <burfi> actually, its is The Real Perl6

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[01:45:20] <pyCube> i know its mostly a 'what i am used to'  thing

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[01:45:56] <ozy`> ruby is perl 10

[01:49:03] <pyCube> thankfully, python is python

[01:49:40] <mmu_man> http://www.tux-planet.fr/mini-blog/?189-une-partie-du-code-source-de-windows-vista-a-ete-dev

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[02:00:45] <stpere> mmu_man: nice :)

[02:01:09] <mmu_man> ohh my, a french remake of gerry springer...

[02:01:16] <mmu_man> even worse than the original

[02:02:12] <ozy`> lutz

[02:04:02] <burfi> http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=20070078663.PGNR.&OS=DN/20070078663&RS=DN/20070078663

[02:04:19] <burfi> wonder, if this one passes

[02:04:38] <ozy`> burfi: naturally

[02:05:20] <mmu_man> it missed april fools by 4 days

[02:05:38] <clsk> is that a joke?

[02:05:46] <mmu_man> burfi of course the USPTO doesn't even read those anyway, they are too busy

[02:05:47] <ozy`> they were probably waiting in line for that long

[02:06:21] <ozy`> the PTO gets paid based on how many patents they accept, not how many they process

[02:06:48] <ozy`> never mind how much thought they put into examining the applications

[02:07:59] <burfi> My gf isn't called Ellie, so I guess I"m save anyway

[02:27:42] <stpere> where can I find the keycodes?

[02:28:19] <stpere> some know offhand?

[02:31:30] <stpere> found it

[02:31:36] <stpere> google is my friend :)

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[03:18:06] <ari-free> I have an idea

[03:18:37] <ari-free> we can recruit computer people from facebook

[03:19:28] <ari-free> target the ad to people who major in compsci

[03:21:47] <DeadYak> no thanks :)

[03:21:49] <ari-free> an example: Developers wanted (Haiku pic) Looking for a new challenge? Haiku is a free open source OS designed from the ground up for ease of use

[03:22:33] <absabs> hello DeadYak

[03:22:52] <DeadYak> hiya

[03:23:14] <ozy`> ari-free: no offense but that sounds like the kind of ad a laundromat would print in the sunday paper in the deserted potato fields of Idaho

[03:23:23] <ari-free> or http://blog.sikosis.com/?p=61 put up flyers on bulletin boards

[03:24:02] <ari-free> universities all over the world

[03:25:13] <ari-free> could you come up with a better facebook ad? there is a word limit

[03:25:21] <DeadYak> with all due respect

[03:25:26] <DeadYak> facebook is about the last place I'd recruit

[03:25:43] <ozy`> yeah this would just be a waste of money

[03:26:39] <ari-free> i like the flyer idea

[03:26:50] <ozy`> SoC should get good recruits already

[03:28:07] <ari-free> SoC has a deadline

[03:28:33] <ozy`> which has passed

[03:28:45] <DeadYak> deadline ended today

[03:28:47] <ozy`> they had over six thousand applicants total, at the last estimate

[03:28:55] <ari-free> for haiku?

[03:29:00] <DeadYak> no, SoC total

[03:29:03] <ozy`> not for haiku specifically

[03:29:18] <ozy`> I bet there are more haiku applicants than they will pay for though

[03:29:27] <ozy`> haiku gets more attention than you might think

[03:29:33] <ozy`> I've been following it for four years

[03:29:44] <ozy`> (IIRC)

[03:30:04] <absabs> deadline ended today?

[03:30:05] <ari-free> but only 6000 out of millions of people in the world hmmm

[03:30:10] <DeadYak> absabs: yes.

[03:30:21] <absabs> ah, time zone

[03:30:31] <DeadYak> ari-free: considering only students are eligible and only a subset of students are interested....

[03:30:47] <ari-free> ah they have to be in uni

[03:30:50] <DeadYak> yes.

[03:30:58] <ari-free> but still

[03:31:15] <ari-free> there must be a lot of compci students who want to make $

[03:31:35] <DeadYak> but how many of them are actually capable? frankly in my experience the vast majority of CS students suck

[03:31:59] <ari-free> out of all the people in the world?

[03:31:59] <DeadYak> when I was doing my degree 95% of the class was just in there because they thought it was a route to big bucks and couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag

[03:32:04] <pyCube> but still == constipation

[03:33:25] <DeadYak> ari-free: considering that you have to be able to understand the code in question and write a good proposal for your project, and answer questions, a lot of people get scared right away there

[03:33:30] <DeadYak> or get marked ineligible

[03:33:46] <DeadYak> I can promise you a much smaller set of the total students out there can actually do that

[03:33:53] <DeadYak> + they have to even be interested

[03:33:58] <DeadYak> not everyone is

[03:34:03] <ari-free> so there are a lot of hoops

[03:34:17] <ari-free> i would like more people to be aware of the project

[03:34:32] <DeadYak> quantity != quality

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[03:35:10] <ari-free> they don't have to develop the code...it's about building a network

[03:36:14] <ari-free> they might be first to use it or develop apps for it

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[03:39:37] <pyCube> i would say let the os exist first..

[03:39:58] <pyCube> there's an old saying about first impressions...

[03:40:47] <ari-free> so it should be beta first?

[03:40:59] <pyCube> r2

[03:41:02] <pyCube> :-p

[03:41:32] <duaneb> wow, that's sad

[03:41:39] <ari-free> ok so i'll leave it to my great grandchildren hehe

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[03:42:09] <pyCube> maybe i am wrong, but the only people that are liekly to get off on r1 are old beos freaks. .

[03:42:24] <pyCube> it seems

[03:42:52] <ari-free> the idea was to target people who like to study operating systems

[03:43:10] <ari-free> here they have a complete OS to study

[03:43:14] <duaneb> I see r2 and think 'stack pointer register'

[03:43:24] <Schmedly3D> I think there would be a bit of interest in a completely open source OS that's not a Linux/BSD/Unix distro

[03:43:55] <duaneb> Hell, I love beos around ten times more than linux

[03:44:02] <ari-free> don't you see the value to academia

[03:44:03] <duaneb> but it is *really* showing its age

[03:44:20] <duaneb> But if you add intel graphics drivers, I'm in

[03:44:33] <DeadYak> it has those

[03:44:37] <ari-free> age where? the kernel? the file system?

[03:44:42] <duaneb> considering that they are open source, it shouldn't be *that* hard...

[03:44:47] <duaneb> ari-free: in its design

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[03:44:59] <duaneb> though it's still a relief compared to, say, X11

[03:45:07] <DeadYak> "its design"? how so

[03:45:15] <duaneb> actually, I take that back

[03:45:46] <duaneb> beos was remarkably forward looking to the point where I still consider it a modern operating system in theory

[03:45:56] <duaneb> but *r5* is showing its age

[03:46:02] <DeadYak> if you're going to argue design, then everybody is showing their age

[03:46:12] <DeadYak> considering the design concepts of most modern OSes are largely unchanged from the 1970s

[03:46:49] <Schmedly3D> Even if R5 is showing it's age, the obvious statement is... Haiku can't progress beyond that until it at least equals it

[03:46:51] <ari-free> haiku isn't r5

[03:47:03] <duaneb> yes it is

[03:47:06] <Schmedly3D> for me right now though it does

[03:47:11] <duaneb> or at least, r1 is

[03:47:20] <Schmedly3D> I've been working on the game exclusively in Haiku for two weeks

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[03:47:36] <Schmedly3D> sometimes the desktop icons disappear, but it's worth it :)

[03:49:01] <duaneb> 'the game'?

[03:49:47] <Schmedly3D> I haven't nailed down the exact gameplay yet, but it will be somewhat of a mission based space game

[03:50:00] <Schmedly3D> forced perspective 3D

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[03:50:45] <duaneb> nifty

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[03:51:20] <Schmedly3D> there's a couple of screenshot from before the hard drive crash here:

[03:51:21] <Schmedly3D> http://beos.polygonsoup.com/

[03:51:34] <Schmedly3D> I'm almost back to that point

[03:52:05] <duaneb> huh

[03:52:15] <duaneb> I suggest you back up your game :P

[03:52:17] <pyCube> I am just anxious for haiku to be beos-ish in principle instead of legacy

[03:52:18] <duaneb> I recommend git

[03:52:26] <duaneb> pyCube++

[03:52:54] <Schmedly3D> I have an svn server, but I didn't expect a year old drive to go up, literally, in a puff of smoke

[03:53:03] <pyCube> cloning an existing system seems decidedly un-beos

[03:54:05] <stpere> my idea of a simple input filter is harder than expected :P

[03:54:17] <duaneb> pyCube: you have to start somewhere

[03:54:25] <duaneb> where BeOS left off isn't a bad place

[03:54:26] <stpere> the filter is applied AFTER the capslock is applied

[03:54:27] <pyCube> duaneb: where did beos start?

[03:54:30] <stpere> which ruins my idea

[03:54:33] <ari-free> you need to have the experience

[03:54:43] <duaneb> pyCube: no idea :P

[03:54:46] <ari-free> r1 is like mozilla. r2 should be like firefox

[03:55:08] <ari-free> mozilla was basically like Netscape 4.7

[03:55:18] <ari-free> nobody care about it

[03:55:54] <ari-free> then some people came along and said aha this is how to do it. firefox took off

[03:56:06] <duaneb> CHEA

[03:56:15] <duaneb> though i actually used mozilla

[03:56:24] <DeadYak> assuming you think Firefox is actually a quality product :)

[03:56:24] <duaneb> I would still if it weren't butt ugly

[03:56:28] <pyCube> i dunno.. i think the idea of beos is/was far more powerful than any specific implementation

[03:56:32] <duaneb> DeadYak: it's seen better years

[03:57:13] <DeadYak> there's more marketing than engineering to it imo, design wise it's not all that great

[03:57:19] <DeadYak> even with all of firefox3's improvements

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[03:57:29] <ari-free> I think the analogy was ueful. mozilla was basically a netscape clone

[03:57:35] <DeadYak> very very overengineered and convoluted

[03:58:20] <ari-free> firefox is a lot better than mozilla

[03:58:31] * pyCube plays with qt4.4

[03:59:59] <ari-free> netscape was always convoluted :(

[04:00:11] <ari-free> and yet it was still better than IE

[04:02:07] <pyCube> i always pronounced IE as "Aaaiiiieee!!!", as in expression of shock, horror, pain

[04:05:14] <Schmedly3D> No it's more of a 'Waaaaaaahhh!!!'

[04:05:48] <ari-free> ieeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwww

[04:05:49] <pyCube> or... "fuck this!! *punch*"

[04:06:15] <ari-free> from shock to disgust

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[04:06:43] <stpere> anyone familiar with the input server?

[04:06:45] <DeadYak> mmu_man: can't sleep?

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[04:07:18] <Schmedly3D>  Oh no, that's next door. It's being-hit-on-the-head lessons in here.

[04:08:16] <mmu_man> DeadYak yeah I started adding a WebPaste ext to Pe

[04:08:28] <ari-free> hmm not too many MIT people on facebook

[04:08:58] <DeadYak> mmu_man: ah lol

[04:09:00] <ari-free> facebook turned into a joke

[04:09:12] <DeadYak> ari-free: precisely why I wouldn't want to recruit from there

[04:10:01] <ari-free> but the whole point of a facebook is to connect with people from...universities

[04:10:26] <DeadYak> it was initially

[04:10:27] <stpere> yes, but is it used really for that?

[04:10:30] <DeadYak> it long since stopped being that

[04:10:36] <DeadYak> ever since they let anyone and everyone join

[04:10:41] <DeadYak> now it's pretty much myspace

[04:10:45] <stpere> zombie attack!

[04:10:47] <ari-free> and all those stupid apps

[04:10:48] <DeadYak> minus the hideous page designs

[04:11:37] <ari-free> "what underwear are you?"

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[04:13:33] <ari-free> according to facebook 113,940 people in the US graduated with a computer major

[04:15:32] <ari-free> germany: 460

[04:15:43] <mmu_man> DeadYak it's working now \o/

[04:15:44] <mmu_man> http://rafb.net/p/GN0ODf16.html

[04:16:08] <mmu_man> hmm I mixed up nickname and description though

[04:22:01] <ari-free> i'll work on those flyers

[04:22:19] <ari-free> much more content than stupid tiny ads

[04:25:40] <mmu_man> http://rafb.net/p/55EEFC22.html

[04:25:49] <mmu_man> seems to work fine, UTF-8 appart

[04:30:50] <bparker06> you just have to change your browser encoding to force utf-8

[04:31:00] <bparker06> pastebin.ca does support utf-8 properly though

[04:31:57] <mmu_man> ah will have a look thx

[04:32:44] <mmu_man> n8

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[06:44:02] <pyCube> hi

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[07:14:06] <koki_haiku> haiku + vision + FF2 uses about 145MB RAM

[07:14:09] <koki_haiku> not bad

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[07:14:46] <Teknomancer> morning all...

[07:15:13] <koki_haiku> good morning Teknomancer

[07:15:41] <Teknomancer> hi Koki

[07:17:42] <pyCube> so, what is a reason to choose one shell over another.. say tcsh instead of bash, or whatever..?

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[07:20:31] <pyCube_> um..

[07:20:32] <pyCube_> hehe

[07:25:18] <cps1966> same reason some use pico or joe over nano

[07:26:26] <pyCube_> habit?

[07:26:45] <cps1966> just what your used to i guess

[07:26:59] <Teknomancer> familiarity with syntax i guess

[07:27:27] <cps1966> i like mc

[07:27:32] <pyCube_> i suppose it would make more sense to me if i used shells for more than rm, mv, ls, etc

[07:27:51] <pyCube_> in my case, they are all the same.. heh

[07:28:07] <cps1966> if you used kde you wouldn't even need that

[07:28:34] <Teknomancer> most of the major ones are good enough to be interchangeable

[07:29:22] <cps1966> some distros have kitchen sink approch to that

[07:29:47] <pyCube_> just curious.. most of the time i find myself using bash, but at work they are standardizing on tcsh

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[07:45:55] <koki_haiku> こんにちは

[07:48:00] <ozy`> здравствый

[07:52:53] <koki_haiku> hehe :)

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[07:53:59] <cps1966> pyCube_:  i like this dream linux

[07:55:08] <cps1966> debian based

[07:57:10] <pyCube_> i havent found a reason to not continue using ubuntu here at home

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[07:57:51] <koki_haiku> what's that pyCube_?

[07:58:07] <cps1966> i still have some tricky hardware giving me fits so i'm still looking at others

[07:58:18] <pyCube_> koki_haiku:  whats ubuntu?

[07:58:40] <ozy`> cps1966: dreamlinux?

[07:59:13] <cps1966> yeah seems pretty stable

[07:59:27] <ozy`> cps1966: so aside from looks, is it more or less useful than ubuntu?

[07:59:27] <cps1966> live cd right now

[07:59:56] <cps1966> i think more but you have to decide for yourself

[07:59:58] <pyCube_> useful?

[08:00:18] <tombhadAC> dreamlinux is an brazilian live-cd based on debian with an graphical installer

[08:00:30] <pyCube_> i would imagine that linux apps are linux apps.. regardless of distro

[08:00:33] <cps1966> xfce4 atm

[08:00:51] <cps1966> not all are created equal

[08:01:02] <koki_haiku> pyCube_, never mind; I misread (thought you were saying "I have found a reason...")

[08:01:05] <ozy`> pyCube_: well every distro does its own weird shit with custom interface junk

[08:01:16] <koki_haiku> I guess it's getting late...

[08:01:22] <pyCube_> koki_haiku:  heh

[08:01:42] <tombhadAC> not all are binary-compatible  pyCube_ ;)

[08:01:56] <pyCube_> ozy`: to me, its all about package management + repositories

[08:02:33] <pyCube_> i dont really want to use an os, i want to use apps

[08:02:59] <Kokito> Haiku just KDLed on me

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[08:04:21] <cps1966> pyCube_:  it has this app called pyneighborhood

[08:04:52] <pyCube_> i dunno.. i use ubuntu at home and redhat at work.. i cant tell the difference

[08:05:10] <pyCube_> ..as a user

[08:05:27] <tombhadAC> there is a big difference ;)

[08:05:55] <pyCube_> tombhadAC: depends on what youre doing

[08:06:02] <tombhadAC> but both are lsb-certified

[08:06:20] <tombhadAC> afaik

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[08:08:45] <Penix> pfft. lsb shmellsb

[08:11:28] <cps1966> hey this has pendrive installer at least

[08:13:49] <cps1966> trying it out right now

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[08:16:33] <cps1966> dunno if 1 GB is big enough

[08:17:38] * JonathanThompson notes a certain Haiku community person needs to be more careful with power tools

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[08:18:12] <cps1966> cut your wanger off

[08:18:17] <JonathanThompson> Not me.

[08:18:20] <JonathanThompson> Someone else.

[08:18:29] <cps1966> ahoh

[08:18:30] <JonathanThompson> I won't say what happened...

[08:18:50] <JonathanThompson> (They haven't released full details, but... a logical guess)

[08:19:00] <cps1966> hehe got mine tangled up in drill before

[08:19:12] <JonathanThompson> Your wanger?

[08:19:16] <cps1966> yup

[08:19:21] <JonathanThompson> ACK!

[08:19:34] <JonathanThompson> I guess I don't want to know exactly how you pulled that off...

[08:19:43] <cps1966> twisted my pants right around it tight

[08:20:29] <cps1966> just drilling a hole in a piece of plastic

[08:21:31] <koki_haiku> good night folks

[08:21:37] <cps1966> gn

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[08:22:38] <MichaelHenry> hate ta interrupt, but I got to know. is it still functional?

[08:22:52] <cps1966> yeah

[08:23:02] <MichaelHenry> thank god

[08:23:04] <JonathanThompson> Just a bit twisted :D

[08:23:04] <cps1966> that was years ago

[08:23:11] <pyCube_> talking about the drill, right?

[08:23:15] <JonathanThompson> Yeah!

[08:23:18] <JonathanThompson> :)

[08:23:19] <MichaelHenry> yeah

[08:23:22] <cps1966> when i say screw i mean screw

[08:23:28] <MichaelHenry> I was being nosy

[08:23:37] * JonathanThompson won't touch the obvious joke

[08:23:46] <MichaelHenry> go for it :)

[08:23:54] * pyCube_ wont touch JonathanThompson's comment about touching things

[08:23:55] <JonathanThompson> <fill in blank here>

[08:24:05] <MichaelHenry> lmao

[08:24:22] <cps1966> things go better with coke

[08:24:28] <JonathanThompson> We've been exchanging barbs for several years now, I think it is...

[08:24:40] <JonathanThompson> (Don't let pyCube_'s wife know about that!)

[08:24:49] <MichaelHenry> lots of things go good with coke

[08:24:55] <MichaelHenry> i've heard

[08:25:22] <cps1966> to bad pepsi was on sale this week

[08:25:37] <pyCube_> coke as in the coal based substance?

[08:25:56] <JonathanThompson> Or the white stuff?

[08:25:56] <cps1966> 4 for 11 bucks plus 3 dollar coupon

[08:26:07] <MichaelHenry> that's cheap

[08:26:09] * JonathanThompson thinks of a Weird Al song

[08:26:40] <cps1966> this week coming 4 for 12 coke plus 2 dollar coupie

[08:26:53] <MichaelHenry> lol

[08:27:12] <pyCube_> i havent had a soft drink in quite a while actually

[08:27:35] <cps1966> you drink that nasty tea

[08:27:49] <MichaelHenry> tea isn't nasty

[08:27:54] <cps1966> some is

[08:27:58] <MichaelHenry> tea is a very fine product

[08:28:07] <MichaelHenry> earl grey

[08:28:08] <MichaelHenry> i like

[08:28:16] <cps1966> never had it

[08:28:30] <MichaelHenry> very good taste hot

[08:28:41] <MichaelHenry> what kind does he like

[08:28:48] <pyCube_> tea, coffee, juice, and water is pretty much it for me  beverage wise

[08:29:01] <MichaelHenry> any special tea?

[08:29:03] <cps1966> my buddy is a scotsman dunno if he drinks that or not

[08:29:17] <pyCube_> i like straight black teas mostly

[08:29:22] <cps1966> pyCube_:  no wine

[08:30:08] <pyCube_> i'll take earl grey, but i prefer non-flavored teas if i have the choice

[08:30:29] <cps1966> thats water made hot

[08:30:47] <pyCube_> no.. its water made hot and infused with teaness

[08:31:00] <MichaelHenry> don't like tea much do we?

[08:31:07] <cps1966> you said no flavor

[08:31:19] <pyCube_> cps1966: i meant no added flavors to the tea

[08:31:29] <cps1966> O

[08:31:33] <pyCube_> earl gret has oil or burgamot, or whatever

[08:31:35] <MichaelHenry> lol

[08:31:37] <pyCube_> oil of

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[08:31:47] <MichaelHenry> oley

[08:32:06] <pyCube_> "stop steaming up my tail!"

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[08:32:20] <MichaelHenry> lol

[08:32:38] * pyCube_ gets reminded of bug bunny episodes very easily

[08:32:45] <pyCube_> bugs

[08:32:46] <MichaelHenry> ah

[08:32:47] * JonathanThompson imagines a clean freak getting with others in a meeting for them labeled "Friends of a feather duster"

[08:32:58] <MichaelHenry> i was gonna ask

[08:33:01] <cps1966> sassafras i used to drink a lot of

[08:33:22] <MichaelHenry> my name is mike and i'm a feather duster.

[08:34:03] <cps1966> my name is vacuum and i'm going to suck you up

[08:34:07] <pyCube_> JonathanThompson: so ya know that classic english amibuity about "i killed a man with a knife"?

[08:34:21] <pyCube_> ambiguity

[08:34:26] <JonathanThompson> Like the Groucho Marx one "I shot an elephant in my pajamas!"

[08:35:05] <pyCube_> JonathanThompson: my daughter pointed out to me that the 'man..knife' one can be true in both cases if the man you killed was yourself

[08:35:17] <JonathanThompson> No doubt, if I put my mind to it, I could create a complete song with many such ambiguities.

[08:35:38] <JonathanThompson> HA! Triple ambiguity! (or was it 4)

[08:35:51] <JonathanThompson> 4

[08:36:37] <JonathanThompson> I'll bet she's already giving teachers a lot of stress in their otherwise boring lives ;)

[08:37:58] <cps1966> my daughter graduates next month a year early

[08:39:13] <pyCube_> i have 12 years to go until all mine are out of school.. hehe

[08:39:25] <cps1966> wow

[08:39:32] <cps1966> 3 more for me

[08:40:05] <cps1966> you'll be almost my age by then

[08:40:49] <JonathanThompson> Ah, but you'll be that much older ;)

[08:41:02] <JonathanThompson> So he won't be your age then, just your current age as of now, or close to it.

[08:41:40] <pyCube_> http://www.lyricsdepot.com/they-might-be-giants/older.html

[08:42:46] <JonathanThompson> Well, they kept the lyrics for that song rather simple, that's for sure.

[08:43:13] <pyCube_> its a great bday song

[08:43:18] <cps1966> this thing has iceweasel

[08:43:35] <JonathanThompson> You know, that's exactly the level of complexity of lyrics that's a good match.

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[08:45:07] <Begasus> morning peeps

[08:45:30] * JonathanThompson goes to couch

[08:46:22] <MichaelHenry> morning begasus

[08:46:32] <MichaelHenry> what time is it there?

[08:46:59] <cps1966> so he's a couch potatoe now

[08:47:10] <Begasus> 8:44 am

[08:47:15] <MichaelHenry> ah

[08:47:29] <cps1966> 2:44 am here

[08:47:30] <MichaelHenry> cps does he need ketchup?

[08:47:37] <pyCube_> catsoup

[08:47:42] <cps1966> vinigar

[08:47:51] <MichaelHenry> 1:44 am here

[08:48:09] <pyCube_> MichaelHenry: where are you

[08:48:22] <cps1966> chicago

[08:48:23] <MichaelHenry> Montcello Arkansas

[08:48:40] <cps1966> clinton state

[08:48:52] <MichaelHenry> 100 miles south of Little Rock

[08:48:57] <MichaelHenry> Yep

[08:49:06] <pyCube_> ah.. cool

[08:49:06] <MichaelHenry> :(

[08:49:17] <MichaelHenry> where are you?

[08:49:43] <cps1966> i'm right here

[08:49:44] <pyCube_> northern california

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[08:49:53] <MichaelHenry> ah

[08:50:09] <MichaelHenry> are you sure you are here or are you there?

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[08:50:13] <cps1966> northwest ohio here

[08:50:41] * pyCube_ hears CSNY

[08:50:54] <cps1966> 165 miles from micican and 8 miles from indiana

[08:51:21] <cps1966> 15 miles from michican

[08:51:29] <MichaelHenry> so we are in the states and Begasus is the only one from Europe?

[08:51:46] <MichaelHenry> He must be lonely

[08:51:53] <pyCube_> cps1966: i went to a meeting of an area group of EV freaks on saturday

[08:51:57] <Begasus> nah :P

[08:52:17] <MichaelHenry> You find out if I can purchase Media Fire yet?

[08:52:23] <cps1966> oh yeah only two of us here

[08:53:03] <pyCube_> i am still a little angry at Belgium.. Some belgian insect bit me on the lip when i was sleeping outside of the antwerp train station.. stupid belgian bugs

[08:53:15] <cps1966> if the price aint to high i'd like to get a volt

[08:54:05] <Begasus> lol

[08:54:05] <cps1966> hey my pen drive is finally done

[08:54:21] <Teknomancer> hey Begasus

[08:54:26] <Begasus> hi Teknomancer

[08:54:35] <cps1966> took forever

[08:55:07] <cps1966> 222 MB free

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[09:00:12] <waveshaper> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udU9zaZrtJk

[09:00:30] <jspiros> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuuTRuKcLrg

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[09:01:19] <MichaelHenry> cps: whatcha doing to you pen drive

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[09:03:42] <MichaelHenry> cps: whatcha doing to you pen drive

[09:04:01] <cps1966> na it wont boot usb

[09:04:12] <cps1966> but eeepc will

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[09:07:13] <cps1966> going to check out suse 11 beta now

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[09:20:38] <MichaelHenry> how close do you guys think it will be before R1 of haiku is released?

[09:23:06] <MichaelHenry> Well what about Alpha 1?

[09:24:29] <Technix> There's not a good way to estimate

[09:25:00] <Technix> like, 6 years ago, we all thought it would only be a matter of another 2-3 years

[09:25:03] <Technix> but reality hits

[09:31:08] <MichaelHenry> ah

[09:31:35] <MichaelHenry> I wish i could win the powerball lotto

[09:31:44] <MichaelHenry> hire some full time dev's

[09:31:59] <MichaelHenry> just so *I* could be happy

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[09:46:52] <MichaelHenry> Hey Technix are you a dev

[09:46:58] <Technix> sorta

[09:47:08] <Technix> I'm not a demi-god or anything thouh

[09:47:24] <MichaelHenry> better than me :D

[09:47:27] <Technix> but I have contributed in the past to various things

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[09:48:02] <MichaelHenry> Have you heard anything about the gnash port?

[09:48:12] <Technix> nope

[09:48:38] <MichaelHenry> just wondering

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[09:50:48] <Begasus> you should ask leszek .. I think he's more aware of how the port is atm iirc

[09:50:54] <Begasus> 'lo Technix ;)

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[09:53:34] <Technix> hey bud

[09:53:46] <CIA-50> mmlr * r24861 /haiku/trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs):

[09:53:46] <CIA-50> * Prepare usb_raw.h for eventually being made public. Prefixed enums values

[09:53:46] <CIA-50>  with B_USB_* and the command union is now usb_raw_command.

[09:53:46] <CIA-50> * Changed usb_raw and the BUSB* classes accordingly.

[09:53:46] <CIA-50> * Moved the raw_device struct into usb_raw.cpp as suggested by Francois as it

[09:53:48] <CIA-50>  was the only thing usb_raw_private.h defined.

[09:53:50] <CIA-50> * Removed usb_raw_private.h again because of the above.

[09:55:44] <MichaelHenry> working on the usb are we?

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[10:04:35] <Technix> that's the bot, automatically showing CVS commits

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[10:09:56] <Technix> rather, SVN in our case

[10:09:59] <Technix> subversion

[10:11:20] <Begasus> tss ... :P

[10:12:41] <CIA-50> stippi * r24862 /haiku/trunk/src/servers/app/ServerCursor.h:

[10:12:41] <CIA-50> Implemented Oliver's suggested improvement to ServerCursorReference when

[10:12:41] <CIA-50> switching cursors. There was a race condition in case the objects was used

[10:12:41] <CIA-50> by multiple threads, in which Cursor() could return an already destroyed

[10:12:41] <CIA-50> object. Note: This doesn't fix a real bug or anything, the change is purely

[10:12:44] <CIA-50> forward looking in case ServerCursorReference is ever used like that.

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[10:21:09] <m0ns00n> ^^

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[10:37:08] <CIA-50> jackburton * r24863 /haiku/trunk/src/kits/interface/PopUpMenu.cpp:

[10:37:08] <CIA-50> Removed the snooze() call before tracking the popup menu. This should

[10:37:08] <CIA-50> avoid the problem noticed by Andrea Anzani (can you check, please ?)

[10:37:08] <CIA-50> where the tracker menu would close when moving the mouse too fast.

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[11:07:13] <cps1966> wow what a mess suse is

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[11:17:11] <CIA-50> axeld * r24864 /haiku/trunk/headers/posix/sys/poll.h: Added sys/poll.h header by popular request (see ticket #2037).

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[11:18:51] <Begasus> bugger ... now I need to update again :P

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[11:40:00] <Technix> damn u axel! :P

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[11:41:56] <Lelldorin1> moin

[11:45:35] <Technix> howdee Lelldorin1

[11:48:54] <Begasus> moin

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[11:52:10] <cps1966> so much for that crap

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[12:50:25] <Begasus> cya peeps

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[12:54:44] <plfiorini> hi

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[14:33:46] * DeadYak plops mmu_man

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[14:37:08] <mmu_man> plop

[14:37:25] <ThomHolwerda> heh never ried miranda's irc module before

[14:37:28] <ThomHolwerda> tried*

[14:37:49] <mmu_man> it works quite well

[14:37:55] <ThomHolwerda> yeah

[14:38:06] <ThomHolwerda> ive been having a very hard time finding a decent irc client for windows

[14:38:15] <ThomHolwerda> seems like it was staring me in the face all along

[14:39:35] <DeadYak> asterisk -rx "restart now"

[14:39:37] <DeadYak> err

[14:39:41] <DeadYak> wrong window :)

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[14:46:37] <Stargater> hi

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[15:22:56] <plfiorini> http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/linux_driver_project_status-2008-04.html?seemore=y

[15:23:35] <plfiorini> an initiative like this can be really good for haiku too in the future

[15:25:13] <DeadYak> apart from the license issues involved with linux drivers you mean?

[15:30:01] <plfiorini> DeadYak: hardware manufacturers can contact haiku developers in order to get drivers written for their devices

[15:30:54] <plfiorini> DeadYak: some drivers can even be binary-only (although i'd prefer open drivers) if the hw manufacturer don't want open drivers

[15:30:59] <DeadYak> assuming they think it's worth their time, yes

[15:31:34] <DeadYak> plfiorini: in some cases it's not completely up to the driver manufacturer, in the case of a bunch of wifi gear for instance FCC regulations with respect to what you're allowed to do with the radio in the US come into play for instance

[15:31:39] <DeadYak> err

[15:31:42] <DeadYak> hardware manufacturer*

[15:31:59] <DeadYak> I need coffee

[15:32:12] <ddew|bofh> o/

[15:34:41] <DeadYak> heya ddew

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[15:47:29] <helf> hi

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[16:00:02] <ThomHolwerda> DeadYak: who doesnt.

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[16:00:24] <DeadYak> ThomHolwerda: it's probably partly because I got about 2 hours of sleep sunday night :)

[16:00:41] <ThomHolwerda> that's indeed not an awful lot :)

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[16:10:42] <MindChild> Ok, Haiku needs to be DVD bootable folks

[16:10:52] <MindChild> What unicorn do I need to murder to make it happen

[16:11:09] <DeadYak> the "implement UDF" gods?

[16:12:20] <MindChild> Ok, so if UDF is implemented, Haiku has the facilities to then to use a file off of it as the filesystem to use? Sort of like BeOS did on a FAT filesystem?

[16:12:58] <DeadYak> dunno, there's plenty of things that make read only disc boot an issue right now though

[16:13:08] <DeadYak> not the least of which is lack of I/O scheduler = craptastic load time on a device like that

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[16:35:50] <MindChild> ugh. Lots of work ahead then

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[16:36:43] <MindChild> And there isn't a device driver of some sort that, at least, can write to read only media and save the deltas in memory?

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[16:53:23] <Technix> well, as long as Haiku's UDF module supports UDF 2.5 Plain mode, it doesn't matter if we have actual write support

[16:53:53] <MindChild> I can whip up some UDF support I believe

[16:53:59] <MindChild> may take about a week or so

[16:54:07] <Technix> UDF Plain is much like FAT, in that there's a table describing the block number the files live at on the DVD

[16:54:14] <Technix> and that's it

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[16:54:52] <Technix> actually, we only need v1.5 of the spec, even

[16:54:54] <Technix> not 2.5

[16:55:04] <Technix> that would be enough to create a normal DVD, and then boot from it

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[16:56:27] <Technix> This might be helpful:

[16:56:29] <Technix> http://sourceforge.net/projects/linux-udf/

[16:56:45] <Technix> don't steal it, but it is ok to look at how its done

[16:56:48] <Technix> :P

[16:56:58] <DeadYak> I'm not sure how the interplay between UDF and BFS works in that scenario though

[16:57:05] <DeadYak> haven't really dug into it in too much detail myself

[16:57:21] <Technix> BFS can load any specific filesystem as a addon driver, of sorts

[16:57:36] <DeadYak> you mean UDF can?

[16:58:08] <Technix> no, the general filesystem support in Haiku can load a filesystem module to facilitate reading/writing

[16:58:16] <Technix> like, we have fat32 support now

[16:58:21] <Technix> do we not? I know BeOS does

[16:58:37] <Technix> I thought Haiku already had fat32 as of a few years ago, but I could be mistaken

[16:58:40] <DeadYak> it can load individual filesystems, yes, that has nothing to do with layering two of them

[16:58:50] <DeadYak> BFS is just one plugin of many, it's not in charge of it

[16:59:27] <mmu_man> oh, a newbie :p

[16:59:30] <Technix> true, but the UDF module, lets's call it thus, would read the structures off the DVD, and then those would be interpreted as BFS

[16:59:30] * mmu_man pets Technix

[16:59:34] <Technix> what?

[16:59:48] <DeadYak> uhh...doesn't work that way

[17:00:11] <MindChild> I was thinking BFS in a file

[17:00:14] <DeadYak> nothing is "interpreted" as BFS, it's either mounted as a BFS volume or it isn't, there's nothing "special" about the BFS module.

[17:00:17] <MindChild> You know... like BeOS PE

[17:00:27] <DeadYak> I think mmu_man did an fmap driver actually

[17:00:29] <Technix> doesn't UDF just describe how the data is laid out physically?

[17:00:38] <DeadYak> no, it's a filesystem of its own

[17:00:43] <mmu_man> never finished

[17:00:51] <DeadYak> afaik

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[17:01:24] <MindChild> mmu_man: what was never finished?

[17:01:30] <mmu_man> fma

[17:01:30] <DeadYak> his fmap driver

[17:02:22] <Technix> maybe we want this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Rainier_%28packet_writing%29

[17:02:48] <DeadYak> that's for rewritable media, different story again

[17:03:27] <Technix> most dvd drives support it these days, iirc

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[17:05:19] <Technix> anyhow, we -should- have UDF support. It's already done for linux, I'm positive its just a matter of time before one of the coding gods (like axel, stippi, ingo, mmu_man, etc) get around to it. :P

[17:05:44] <mmu_man> Technix we do have an UDF addon for BeOS, but it's read-only

[17:05:51] <mmu_man> because adding write support is much more complex

[17:06:19] <Technix> so then its only a matter of time before we can boot off UDF media?

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[17:08:07] <mmu_man> Technix except the current addon doesn't support xattrs

[17:08:15] <mmu_man> and UDF likely doesn't support indexing at all

[17:08:38] <mmu_man> it has no benefit over BFS for read only anyway

[17:09:04] <MindChild> All I want is to boot a BFS-in-a-file off of UDF

[17:09:16] <Technix> why in a file?

[17:09:21] <Technix> that sounds inefficne

[17:09:25] <Technix> inefficient

[17:10:05] <MindChild> How would that be more inefficient than say, booting a BFS read-only track from a CD?

[17:10:08] <MindChild> Its just a span of data

[17:10:23] <mmu_man> it's not that much slower

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[17:10:52] <DeadYak> it's negligibly slower unless the file is fragmented, which shouldn't be the case on a CD/DVD anyways

[17:10:56] <mmu_man> but there is no use except to make life easier for people making hybrid CDs (like magazines who throw wincrap software along with it)

[17:11:35] <MindChild> Are you serious?

[17:11:44] <Technix> cause what if some software wants to read a particular file off the disc directly?

[17:11:57] <DeadYak> "directly"?

[17:12:00] <MindChild> Technix: The file is mounted like a partition

[17:12:00] <Technix> instead of making an extra wrapper (this file loader)

[17:12:14] <Technix> MindChild: ah, well, ok. That makes sense. :P

[17:12:17] <DeadYak> as far as any app wanting to read a file, it has no idea the layer's there.

[17:12:17] <Technix> nevermind then

[17:12:27] <DeadYak> same way R5 did it when booting off the partition-in-a-file off fat32

[17:12:29] <Technix> its abstracted is what you're saying

[17:13:35] <Technix> I just hate taking stuff on faith sometimes, "its complicated"...  why?

[17:14:24] <Technix> mmu_man: did ya miss my criticalness? lol... It's like old times

[17:16:37] <Technix> bbiab

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[17:18:21] <CIA-50> mmu_man * r24865 /haiku/trunk/build/jam/DocumentationRules: Replace spaces with tabs.

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[17:31:30] <Hugen_> hi all

[17:33:33] <Technix> hi Hugen_

[17:33:38] <stpere> hi!

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[17:37:31] <Hugen_> hi Technix

[17:37:40] <Hugen_> hi stpere

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[17:44:46] <stippi> hi

[17:45:11] <stippi> stpere: Did that comment about B_MODIFIERS_CHANGED versus B_KEY_DOWN help you in any way?

[17:45:19] <DeadYak> hi stippi

[17:45:27] <stippi> hi DeadYak

[17:45:51] <absabs> hi all

[17:45:56] <stippi> hi absabs

[17:46:08] <absabs> :)

[17:46:20] <stippi> have you been looking into Media Kit documentation lately? :-)

[17:48:00] <absabs> stippi, yeah

[17:48:10] <stippi> great

[17:48:19] <absabs> have 2 questions

[17:48:24] <stippi> shoot

[17:48:36] <absabs> I planned to ask in dev maillist.

[17:48:54] <stippi> you can do that too, or here, if you like

[17:49:21] <absabs> when is media node loaded?

[17:49:31] <stippi> this depends

[17:49:37] <absabs> the Application init?

[17:49:48] <absabs> in constructor?

[17:50:00] <DeadYak> I want to say it's loaded when the first person asks the media kit for an instance of it

[17:50:01] <stippi> you can specify that your are a "physical input" or a "physical output", in which case the media server loads you add-on when it starts

[17:50:19] <DeadYak> ah, forgot that flag

[17:50:24] <stippi> if you don't specify this, you are a so called "dormant" node

[17:50:40] <stippi> applications can find out about dormant nodes from the media server

[17:50:52] <stippi> and then ask the server to instantiate the node they want

[17:51:25] <stippi> that's when you get loaded in that case, and unloaded when the application releases the last reference for your node.

[17:51:34] <stippi> the DV node would be a physical input

[17:51:37] <stippi> and output actually

[17:52:27] <absabs> thanks stippi

[17:52:33] <stippi> np

[17:52:38] <absabs> another question is

[17:52:38] <stippi> and the other question?

[17:52:42] <stippi> :-)

[17:53:30] <absabs> if I have recompile the media node

[17:53:48] <absabs> Can I unload the node and reload the new node

[17:53:55] <absabs> without rebooting?

[17:54:02] <DeadYak> for a physical node you can do that by restarting the media server

[17:54:03] <stippi> yes

[17:54:11] <stippi> what DeadYak says

[17:54:21] <absabs> how can I restart the media server?

[17:54:27] <stippi> and for non physical, you would just restart the application you used for instantiating th node

[17:54:32] <DeadYak> Restart Media Services in media prefs.

[17:54:39] <stippi> you can do it progamatically too

[17:54:54] <absabs> ah

[17:54:57] <stippi> there is a button in the media prefs, but also an API function (global C call)

[17:55:16] <absabs> which one?

[17:55:22] <stippi> just a sec

[17:55:45] <stippi> shutdown_media_server()

[17:55:48] <stippi> and launch_media_server()

[17:56:55] <absabs> wow, thanks stippi and DeadYak

[17:57:08] <stippi> glad we could help

[17:57:17] <absabs> :)

[17:57:50] <DeadYak> absabs: those are in headers/os/media/MediaDefs.h if you want to look at them

[17:58:25] <absabs> thanks

[17:59:11] <stippi> if you are looking up documentation in the BeBook, there is mostly a section called "Global Functions" per Kit, in this case too.

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[18:00:31] <absabs> nice

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[18:05:48] <absabs> It's about 00:10

[18:05:51] <absabs> time to go to bed

[18:05:58] <absabs> night all

[18:06:03] <absabs> :)

[18:06:04] <_Megaf> night

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[18:08:07] <stpere> hi stippi

[18:08:13] <stpere> I couldn't try it yet

[18:08:16] <stpere> at work

[18:08:26] <stpere> but I'm pretty sure it will work

[18:08:42] <stpere> I was looking for a what==key_down message

[18:08:55] <stpere> and it never entered that case..

[18:09:02] <stippi> ah, ok that would be it then

[18:09:28] <stpere> I'm kindof relieved it's that simple actually

[18:09:45] <stippi> that reminds me, I still have a cool touch pad blocking filter which I could donate

[18:10:04] <stpere> if you type, touchpad gets desactivated?

[18:10:20] <stippi> not exactly like that, but in effect, yes

[18:10:55] <stippi> it will reject clicks if they happen too shortly after typing for the last time and with no prior mouse movement

[18:11:07] <stpere> ah cool! :)

[18:11:11] <stippi> ie clicking accidentally while typing

[18:11:22] <stippi> it's on BeBits actually

[18:11:29] <stippi> TouchPadBlocker IIRC

[18:11:39] <stpere> where should I put my filter so that's its optional?

[18:11:46] <stpere> I know not everyone wants this

[18:11:48] <stippi> good question

[18:12:05] <stpere> I can build it "off tree", I think

[18:12:11] <stpere> and package it separately

[18:12:23] <stippi> I think if you just put it in the tree (send a patch), people could add to their image if they want

[18:12:29] <stpere> ok

[18:12:36] <stippi> and we can find a better solution later

[18:12:50] <stpere> that sounds good to me

[18:12:52] <stippi> maybe a general preflet that disables or enables add-ons for the known locations

[18:13:13] <stippi> ie, taking the work off the user to do this manually by moving files around

[18:13:14] <stpere> with an attribute for the add-ons

[18:13:21] <stpere> file

[18:13:25] <stippi> ah, query based?

[18:13:31] <stpere> yup

[18:13:34] <stippi> nice

[18:13:37] <stpere> do you think it would work?

[18:13:44] <stippi> yeah, could be

[18:14:00] <stippi> such stuff always depends on how many thirdparty devs follow this semi standard

[18:14:05] <stpere> yes

[18:14:24] <stpere> it wasn't like that in R5, so we cannot expect legacy stuff to use that standard

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[18:44:26] <stpere> I should setup a dev environnement on this laptop too :)

[18:44:32] <stpere> I want to test that simple change and cannot

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[18:48:17] <Stargater> re

[18:49:34] <stpere> hi Stargater

[18:49:45] <stpere> someone know if there is a Beep() function in Haiku?

[18:50:05] <Stargater> hi stpere

[18:50:07] <stpere> as I said, I don't have my test machine ready

[18:50:17] <stpere> so I would gladly look myself :-)

[18:52:38] <DeadYak> system_beep();

[18:52:56] <Schmedly3D> Hmm why would the Haiku installer magically appear on a reboot of the system?

[18:53:13] <DeadYak> Schmedly3D: BFS mounted readonly due to journal corruption

[18:53:31] <stippi> stpere: Yes, beep()

[18:53:40] <stippi> stpere: or system_beep() one of those

[18:53:49] <DeadYak> beep() or system_beep(const char *evtname) yes

[18:54:01] <stippi> oh, DeadYak: didn't see you replied already

[18:54:02] <DeadYak> depends on if you want the default beep sound or a custom event based one :)

[18:54:04] <stippi> sorry :-)

[18:54:08] <DeadYak> np :)

[18:54:11] <Schmedly3D> DeadYak: Is there any way to correct it?

[18:54:36] <DeadYak> Schmedly3D: you can try chkbfs....either that or if you have another BFS volume I'd copy your data to that from R5 and reformat the partition

[18:54:49] <DeadYak> Schmedly3D: that bug was fixed recently though so it shouldn't happen again on a new rev

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[18:55:12] <stpere> thanks

[18:56:27] <Schmedly3D> DeadYak: Thanks, I'll tinker a bit

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[18:59:25] <Schmedly3D> Yeah chkbfs sees it as read-only

[18:59:44] <DeadYak> it's a safety measure if it detects corruption, so you can still get at your data but not make it any worse

[19:00:21] <Schmedly3D> A good thing.

[19:00:45] <Stargater> http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2008/080408xc.html

[19:01:59] <mmu_man> hmm I wanted to use a BHandler to pass extra info to print drivers, but it's usually called synchronously from a window thread... it'd deadlock :-(

[19:02:57] <Stargater> http://www.pro-linux.de/NB2/images/indiv/hp_mini_note_2133.jpg

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[19:06:41] <Stargater> http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9904505-1.html

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[19:54:23] <mmu_man> ok got working printing in Pe

[19:54:28] <mmu_man> ugly but it prints

[19:55:48] <DeadYak> yay

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[20:00:46] <Schmedly3D> DeadYak: Do you know anything about Bullet Physics in Haiku? I see it in the About System panel

[20:01:42] <DeadYak> I would guess it's somehow involved in the GL kit offhand

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[20:01:57] <Stargater> mmu_man can haiku print ?

[20:02:05] <mmu_man> dunno

[20:02:15] <Stargater> what is your printer ?

[20:02:18] <mmu_man> maybe it works via usb, dunno

[20:02:26] <mmu_man> PDF Writer atm :p

[20:02:41] <mmu_man> I have an old lexmark on // port also

[20:02:47] <Stargater> ok i hope cups is comming

[20:03:21] <Stargater> itahmar ? long time not see ?

[20:03:34] <Stargater> to much work in real job?

[20:03:47] <DeadYak> he was injured while on vacation

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[20:04:14] <DeadYak> he's been stuck in new zealand with a broken leg and wrist for the past month and a half

[20:04:18] <mmu_man> yeah hope he's gettingt better

[20:04:27] <helf> ewll, if he wouldnt drive into trees...

[20:04:35] <DeadYak> mmu_man: he just flew back into .nl last night in theory

[20:04:38] <Stargater> oh

[20:04:39] <DeadYak> haven't heard from him yet though

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[20:06:47] <DeadYak> wb

[20:06:56] <AlienSoldier> that sound like a scene from "Bad Taste"

[20:07:10] <helf> hey AlienSoldier

[20:07:15] <AlienSoldier> hi helf

[20:07:17] <_stippi_> how can I kick my other instance?

[20:07:22] <Stargater> wi _stippi_

[20:07:24] <DeadYak> _stippi_: /ns ghost stippi  password

[20:07:29] <Stargater> wi = hi;

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[20:07:54] <stippi> thanks

[20:07:55] <DeadYak> np

[20:08:53] <helf> http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/feb98/0306.html

[20:11:15] <ari-free> a sinister plot to rule the world!

[20:11:51] <ari-free> I am still waiting for multi-directional links

[20:12:38] <Stargater> http://tm.kaldience.com/dir/members/stargater/bilder/screen1.png

[20:14:14] <Mazon> is it common for haiku to crash (in weird ways) when self-compiling ?

[20:14:50] <DeadYak> yes.

[20:15:02] <DeadYak> if you mean things like vfork(): out of memory

[20:15:02] <helf> its just common for haiku to crash ;)

[20:15:16] <Mazon> no, I got an error in cc1plus or something

[20:15:24] <DeadYak> hadn't seen that one....

[20:15:30] <DeadYak> how much RAM?

[20:16:16] <Mazon> 1GB, vmware

[20:16:19] <Mazon> http://rafb.net/p/TGEFo341.html

[20:16:35] <DeadYak> ah

[20:16:46] <DeadYak> yeah, I definitely haven't seen that one here

[20:17:01] <Mazon> so, its a legiyt "bug" tha I should report ?

[20:17:12] <DeadYak> what was the panic message?

[20:17:20] <Mazon> sorry 'bout spelling - under redwine influence

[20:17:23] <Mazon> no message

[20:17:29] <Mazon> screen just stopped painting

[20:17:38] * DeadYak blinks

[20:17:46] <Mazon> but vmware/kdl responded to input

[20:17:54] <Mazon> so I could read output in serial log

[20:18:01] <DeadYak> ah, so you broke into the kernel debugger yourself?

[20:18:05] <Mazon> no

[20:18:15] <Mazon> I did a jam -q haiku-image

[20:18:21] <Mazon> and went into town

[20:18:28] <Mazon> came back to a frozen screen

[20:18:52] <Mazon> basically a static image of whatever was running at the tiem of the crash

[20:18:59] <Mazon> no white kdl screen

[20:19:03] <DeadYak> ok

[20:19:09] <DeadYak> what version was that with?

[20:19:55] <Mazon> 24856

[20:20:17] <DeadYak> ah

[20:20:46] <Mazon> I paused the machine

[20:20:51] <Mazon> still responds to input

[20:20:57] <Mazon> and now I actually have a white screen

[20:21:26] <Mazon> but still paints "wrong" - not the last things I typed that its painting

[20:21:37] <Mazon> but its a valid ticket then ?

[20:21:57] <DeadYak> could be, I honestly haven't tried in VMWare at all myself though so I don't know for sure

[20:22:33] <DeadYak> that stack trace doesn't look too useful though, that looks like what would happen if you used f12 to break into the debugger while the compile thread was running

[20:23:06] <Mazon> right

[20:23:11] <Mazon> but I did get this prior:

[20:23:12] <Mazon> CPU 0 halted!

[20:23:12] <Mazon> PANIC: free(): free failed for address 0x00000001

[20:23:17] <Mazon> Welcome to Kernel Debugging Land...

[20:23:17] <Mazon> Running on CPU 1

[20:23:17] <DeadYak> ah.

[20:23:29] <DeadYak> that's what I meant by KDL message

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[20:23:43] <Mazon> yeah, sorry - didn't notice that is was in the logs too

[20:24:00] <DeadYak> in that case, yeah, post a ticket please

[20:24:19] <Mazon> will do

[20:24:24] <DeadYak> thanks

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[20:27:19] <stpere> stippi: you there?

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[20:34:30] <DeadYak> stpere: what's up?

[20:34:35] <stpere> oh

[20:34:44] <stpere> you can probably help

[20:34:47] <stpere> I need your opinion

[20:35:11] <DeadYak> shoot

[20:35:19] <stpere> do you think "rewriting" the preflets to use the new layout thing is worth the pain?

[20:35:40] <stpere> it wouldn't be a rewrite in fact,

[20:35:44] <DeadYak> depends on the preflet really, some of them are simplistic enough that it won't matter much

[20:35:50] <stpere> ok

[20:37:06] <stpere> I noticed some heuretics bugs

[20:37:20] <stpere> in some preflets

[20:37:38] <stpere> so, I was going to propose new version for them

[20:37:46] <stpere> so for those, I will write them using the layout thing

[20:38:25] <stpere> (eventually.. , it's on my todo list :) )

[20:38:49] <DeadYak> ok :)

[20:39:05] <DeadYak> if nothing else it'd be useful to have more examples available of using the layout classes :)

[20:39:12] <DeadYak> especially if it's not much work to rewrite them

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[20:40:06] <Stargater> Hi axeld

[20:40:08] <DeadYak> hi axel

[20:40:13] <stpere> hi axeld

[20:40:16] <axeld> Hi there

[20:40:21] <mmu_man> plop

[20:40:22] <stpere> thanks for your tip about caps lock

[20:40:24] <Stargater> the master of kernel

[20:40:32] <axeld> stpere: be welcome

[20:41:02] <stippi> stpere: the layout stuff is absolutely fit for it and I think it would be great to rewrite all preflets to use it eventually.

[20:41:13] <stippi> starting with those that have issues... :-)

[20:41:26] <axeld> Hi stippi!

[20:42:48] <stpere> :)

[20:43:43] <stippi> hi axeld

[20:43:46] <stpere> is there a mask edit control already built?

[20:43:50] <stpere> or should I build one?

[20:44:02] <DeadYak> mask as in subnet mask?

[20:44:03] <stpere> (if answer 1 is no, answer 2 will be yes

[20:44:30] <DeadYak> or do you mean something else by mask?

[20:44:37] <stippi> oh axeld, I can't here it beep when you mention my nick... you know... because of the ... uhm... hda driver...

[20:44:44] <DeadYak> hahaha

[20:44:49] <axeld> hehe

[20:44:51] <DeadYak> stippi: hint hint? :)

[20:44:56] <stpere> like phone number validation

[20:45:03] <stpere> (999) 000-0000

[20:45:08] <axeld> I'll finish it soon, I promise :-)

[20:45:09] <stippi> stpere: I have some interesting code for that I could send you

[20:45:12] <DeadYak> stpere: you can do that by using a BMessageFilter on a BTextControl

[20:45:17] <stippi> it is a bit old, but maybe useful anyways

[20:45:28] <stpere> stpere at gmail dot com :)

[20:45:34] <stippi> ok :-)

[20:45:55] <stpere> I would use it to validate IP addresses

[20:45:55] <stippi> you can override Insert and Delete or something for a text control

[20:46:08] <DeadYak> stippi: that'd work too :)

[20:46:15] <stpere> oh nice

[20:46:18] <stpere> good idea

[20:46:20] <stippi> these are actually the best ones

[20:46:41] <DeadYak> stippi: do all other InsertAt, etc. functions call the virtual?

[20:47:02] <DeadYak> or am I thinking of a different control?

[20:47:14] <stippi> yes

[20:47:20] <stippi> it all goes through those too

[20:47:21] <stippi> two

[20:47:24] <DeadYak> cool

[20:47:35] <stippi> it definitely does on BeOS

[20:47:48] <stippi> if not on Haiku, it should be fixed, but I think it works like that

[20:47:58] <DeadYak> just checking, it's been a while :)

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[20:51:21] * DeadYak hides the sheep

[20:51:32] * DaaT slaps DeadYak and demands to know where they were hidden

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[20:51:45] <axeld> Hey DaaT

[20:51:50] <DaaT> howdy axeld :)

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[20:57:00] * DeadYak pets koki_haiku

[20:57:06] <koki_haiku> hey DeadYak

[20:57:13] <stpere> hi koki

[20:57:32] <stpere> Dad is getting a new cat to replace the disappeared one

[20:57:33] <koki_haiku> DeadYak, question: do queries work for you in recent builds?

[20:57:40] <stpere> he takes it the same color, same race

[20:57:42] <koki_haiku> hi stpere :)

[20:57:43] <stpere> you know why?

[20:57:49] <DeadYak> I honestly haven't tried, I'm not sure

[20:58:07] <stpere> because he's afraid to tell the lady who gave us the former cat that the cat is disappeared

[20:58:18] <stpere> and she said she would come this summer to see it

[20:58:19] <stpere> :)

[20:59:21] <axeld> stpere: and she won't notice? :)

[20:59:28] <stpere> he hopes so :)

[20:59:37] <DaaT> koki_haiku!

[21:00:11] <stpere> I had some trouble grasping the messaging concept of BeOS/Haiku, but now it seems so natural

[21:00:19] <stpere> BMessage, I mean

[21:00:47] <koki_haiku> DeadYak, hey DaaT!!!

[21:00:48] <stippi> stpere: yes

[21:00:58] <koki_haiku> hi stippi!

[21:00:59] <stippi> and you should use it more often then you think initially

[21:01:02] <stippi> hi koki_haiku!

[21:01:17] <DaaT> tudo bem koki_haiku?

[21:01:31] <DeadYak> stpere: it's quite handy for doing things asynchronously :)

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[21:01:47] <stpere> yup

[21:02:08] <koki_haiku> tudo bem DaaT, e voce?

[21:02:17] 

[21:02:44] <koki_haiku> anyone running rev 24860 or later here?

[21:03:03] <stippi> 24855 here

[21:03:44] <koki_haiku> stippi, do attribute queries work for you?

[21:04:18] <stippi> don't know yet

[21:04:21] <stippi> just a sec

[21:04:29] <koki_haiku> trying some queries with with people files, and they don't work

[21:05:00] <axeld> koki_haiku: possibly, there is no index generated for them

[21:05:04] <axeld> Hi koki_haiku, btw :)

[21:05:15] <koki_haiku> hi axeld :)

[21:05:59] <stippi> you mean it doesn't work as in it doesn't show any results?

[21:06:06] <koki_haiku> stippi, correct

[21:06:13] <stippi> I can second that

[21:06:24] <koki_haiku> this is recent

[21:06:26] <stippi> my earlier query seems to keep running even, but that might be a tracker bug

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[21:07:11] <DaaT> hey AtomoZEro

[21:07:41] <AtomoZEro> :) aloa :)

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[21:08:00] <aljen> hey

[21:08:51] <koki_haiku> axeld, I have a question for you: when cold-booting my laptop into haiku, the AMD/64 CPU always defaults to 800MHz when it is capable of 1.8G. Is there any way to force the higher clock rate?

[21:09:08] <stippi> hi aljen

[21:09:10] <stpere> maybe a bios option?

[21:09:21] <aljen> hi stippi :)

[21:09:37] <koki_haiku> stpere: no bios option available unfortunately

[21:09:40] <stippi> AtomoZEro: how is your CAD project going? Do you still work on that?

[21:09:59] <DaaT> ah yes, atomocad

[21:10:00] <axeld> koki_haiku: does it run on battery then?

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[21:10:03] <DaaT> answer the man AtomoZEro :)

[21:10:05] <DeadYak> [14:09:18] [koki_haiku] gives me the following error: /bin/lsindex: can't open index dir of device 3

[21:10:06] <axeld> Hi leavengood!

[21:10:08] <DeadYak> ummm....

[21:10:10] <DaaT> hey ryan

[21:10:10] <DeadYak> that's not good :)

[21:10:10] <leavengood> hey

[21:10:16] <DeadYak> does that imply mkbfs -noindex?

[21:10:20] <stippi> hi leavengood!

[21:10:31] <koki_haiku> hi leavengood

[21:10:50] <DeadYak> hi leavengood :)

[21:10:54] <axeld> DeadYak: eventually Ingo's latest changes broke something

[21:10:56] <stpere> hi ryan

[21:11:01] <DeadYak> axeld: ah

[21:11:04] <AtomoZEro> gabriele biffuz work on AtomoCad, but i dont know if is on alpha or beta

[21:11:15] <axeld> leavengood: is your nick registered (ie. do you get private messages)?

[21:11:18] <DeadYak> axeld: the VFS changes you mean?

[21:11:25] <axeld> DeadYak: exactly

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[21:11:39] <stippi> axeld: you always get them, only you cannot post them if you're not registered I think

[21:11:48] <DeadYak> stippi: correct

[21:11:59] <leavengood> yeah, I'm having trouble using irssi from a MacOS X terminal though :(

[21:11:59] <leavengood> how the hell do you type alt?

[21:11:59] <leavengood> stupid Mac

[21:12:04] <axeld> stippi: ah, thanks, so I was just confused :-)

[21:12:12] <DaaT> leavengood, you just did

[21:12:13] <DaaT> :P

[21:12:21] <stippi> leavengood: don't you just hate Macs? I do.

[21:12:22] <axeld> leavengood: isn't that just the option key?

[21:13:23] <aljen> ive got alt on my keyboard

[21:13:53] <leavengood> you have to set an option in the Mac terminal to send Option as Meta

[21:13:59] <leavengood> stupid Macs

[21:14:04] <leavengood> stippi: yes I hate it

[21:14:20] <stippi> :-)

[21:15:35] <koki_haiku> axeld, sorry, missed your question: the laptop is running on AC.

[21:15:52] * koki_haiku sucks at multitasking on irc

[21:16:14] <DaaT> old age

[21:16:35] <axeld> koki_haiku: hm, that would have been a reason at least. And that doesn't happen with BeOS? In any case, Haiku doesn't yet have any kind of power management built in, and I'm afraid there is little we can do about that before we do

[21:17:10] <koki_haiku> axeld, ok, np :)

[21:17:24] <DaaT> koki_haiku, do you dual boot with windows?

[21:17:33] <DaaT> if yes, what's the frequency there?

[21:17:36] <koki_haiku> DaaT, yeah, that's the trick that I use :)

[21:18:17] <cps1966> maybe haiku is to light a load for it to do more

[21:18:20] <koki_haiku> DaaT, in Win it varies; when the loadincreases, the CPU will go up to 1.8G

[21:18:36] <DaaT> you mean, even when on AC, it doesn't stay at 1.8?

[21:18:48] <koki_haiku> cps1966, sure; but I still want the extra power, especially when running apps like FF

[21:18:51] <stpere> neither do mine

[21:19:00] <koki_haiku> DaaT, that's correct.

[21:19:07] <DaaT> weird

[21:19:12] <stpere> it throttle automatically, even on AC

[21:19:19] <stpere> (but I could change that behaviour)

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[21:19:29] <DaaT> stpere, should be a setting you're able to change

[21:19:35] <DaaT> usually in power management

[21:19:37] <JBurton> yo

[21:19:40] <stpere> yes, I see it now

[21:19:41] <DaaT> same to you koki_haiku

[21:19:43] <DaaT> hi JBurton

[21:19:56] <AtomoZEro> JBurton proot

[21:19:58] <koki_haiku> DaaT, yes, it's true.

[21:20:10] <JBurton> ciao AtomoZEro

[21:20:15] <axeld> Hi JBurton

[21:20:18] <DaaT> koki_haiku, try changing it so that's it's always @ 1.8, then reboot into haiku

[21:20:19] <DaaT> tried it?

[21:20:29] <JBurton> hi axeld

[21:20:46] <koki_haiku> DaaT, that's what I do now :)

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[21:21:00] <DaaT> ah

[21:21:01] <DaaT> :)

[21:21:35] <koki_haiku> DaaT, it's just kind of embarrasing to have to do that in front of people (at a conference/show/presentation) :)

[21:22:05] <DaaT> agreed

[21:22:23] <DaaT> brb

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[21:23:02] <koki_haiku> but that's ok, I can always turn the laptop around with screen away from eyes of the audience :)

[21:24:19] <DaaT> re

[21:24:24] <DaaT> ;)

[21:25:17] <stpere> turn off the projector ;-)

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[21:32:44] <DaaT> bbiab

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[21:33:54] <bonefish> Howdy!

[21:34:03] <stpere> hi bonefish !

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[21:34:11] <stpere> oh right, there is a meeting today :)

[21:34:19] <axeld> Hey bonefish!

[21:34:27] <stpere> I was wondering why all the leaders were here

[21:34:32] <stpere> at the same time

[21:34:48] <DeadYak> hi bonefish :)

[21:35:11] <axeld> stpere: mentor meeting, exactly

[21:35:22] <axeld> stpere: some are still missing though :-)

[21:35:26] <stpere> hehe

[21:37:12] <ari-free> oh good. i feel like I'm part of history in the making hehe

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[21:39:07] <DeadYak> hi oliver :)

[21:39:59] * stpere notes, urnenfeld == oliver :)

[21:40:23] <AtomoZEro> buenas tardes urnenfeld :)

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[21:40:39] <Lelldorin1> re

[21:41:01] <koki_haiku> hey bonefish!

[21:41:06] <axeld> Hey urnenfeld!

[21:41:37] <koki_haiku> hola colega :)

[21:43:52] <urnenfeld> stpere: do we know each other ? :P

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[21:51:46] <duaneb> Hi people

[21:51:52] * duaneb recognizes axeld's name

[21:54:27] <axeld> Hi duaneb

[21:55:13] <emitrax> evening all

[21:55:41] * emitrax reminds axels about the device manager

[21:56:30] <Lelldorin1> hi

[21:56:37] <stpere> urnenfeld: not yet :)

[21:56:56] <axeld> emitrax: I've actually started to work on it

[21:56:59] <stpere> I'm just trying to associate IRC nicks with emails

[21:57:10] <stpere> I think I saw one of your post on the ML

[21:57:21] <emitrax> axeld: please please ... don't forget about the documentation :)

[21:57:24] <axeld> emitrax: I've started fleshing out the API. I didn't come that far yet, but I started hacking a test shell so that I can test my ideas with

[21:57:46] <emitrax> axeld: how about sharing ideas on the kernel mailing list ?

[21:57:59] <emitrax> axeld: I'd like to follow the design/development

[21:58:14] <helf> "darko"

[21:58:16] <helf> cool name :P

[21:58:33] <axeld> emitrax: I wanted to have at least a complete picture before doing so, but if you insist on it, I can post the current draft

[21:59:30] <emitrax> axeld: it's not like I want to force you :) I just think you shouldn't do as Thomas did.

[21:59:56] <emitrax> axeld: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor :)

[22:00:02] <axeld> emitrax: I'm not planning to

[22:00:14] <axeld> yeah, I heard of that :-)

[22:00:22] <emitrax> :)

[22:00:47] <emitrax> hope you don't get hit by a bus :p

[22:02:32] <CIA-50> oruizdorantes * r24866 /haiku/trunk/src/kits/bluetooth/Jamfile:

[22:02:32] <CIA-50> ObjectList is required

[22:02:32] <CIA-50> Courtesy of candidate SoC student Adrien Destugues

[22:02:47] <cps1966> just so linus dont get hit

[22:03:32] <ari-free> oh that quote

[22:03:45] <emitrax> urnenfeld: is there a bluetooth student ?

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[22:04:01] <DaaT> so it seems

[22:04:28] <urnenfeld> some some :)

[22:04:28] <urnenfeld> stpere: so who are you ? :P

[22:04:41] <AtomoZEro> wow :) 93 user :D

[22:04:42] <DaaT> is a list of students who applied, available?

[22:05:05] <DeadYak> I'm not sure that's public as of yet

[22:05:31] <axeld> emitrax: just wrote a message to the kernel list

[22:05:34] <DaaT> thought so

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[22:06:59] <emitrax> urnenfeld: that's a nice news

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[22:08:01] <DeadYak> axeld: kernel list?

[22:08:16] <emitrax> axeld: thanks, I'm reading it now

[22:08:20] <emitrax> DeadYak: yes

[22:08:29] * DeadYak goes to subscribe

[22:08:43] <emitrax> by the way, perhaps one day we should drop the "openbeos" name

[22:08:44] <axeld> DeadYak: that mailing list no one ever uses ;-)

[22:08:56] <DeadYak> axeld: I didn't know there was a separate list for it :)

[22:09:03] <axeld> emitrax: yes, definitely, it's just not possible to rename lists with freelists

[22:09:14] <axeld> DeadYak: see? ;-)

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[22:12:11] <DeadYak> axeld: :)

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[22:17:23] <duaneb> grobble

[22:17:27] <stpere> urnenfeld: I'm Philippe Saint-Pierre on the ML

[22:17:28] <pyCube> see

[22:17:47] <stpere> urnenfeld: freelance coder as a living

[22:17:56] <stpere> PHP stuff mainly

[22:18:09] <stpere> and I've started contributing to Haiku

[22:20:07] <leavengood> stpere: ever get that input filter working?

[22:20:28] <stpere> axeld gave me a good tip

[22:20:35] <stpere> I will try it this evening

[22:20:44] <stpere> but I'm confident it will work :)

[22:20:53] <stpere> the explanation totally made sense

[22:21:39] <stpere> doing small stuff like that slowly gets me confortable with coding style and such things

[22:21:48] <duaneb> gah

[22:22:00] <duaneb> Python compiles smoothly except for this weird langinfo bug...

[22:23:14] <ddew|bofh> gah, i hate that there's no standard for how rackmounts should be

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[22:24:08] <ddew|bofh> the rails for my IBM cabinet won't fit my HP servers and the HP rails are 1" too long :(

[22:24:36] <stpere> the HP rails don't fit HP servers o_O

[22:25:00] <ddew|bofh> the hp rails fir the servers, but not the cabinet

[22:25:26] <duaneb> how solid is Haiku's pthread support?

[22:25:37] <leavengood> duaneb: maybe 80%

[22:25:44] <duaneb> oh

[22:25:55] <duaneb> python keeps crashing when I enable pthreads...

[22:26:10] <leavengood> please post a bug report

[22:26:27] <leavengood> nothing better than fixing something that is needed

[22:26:43] <leavengood> the missing function may be in the stack trace

[22:27:00] <duaneb> leavengood, not that kind of crash

[22:27:13] <stpere> it's compiling but crashing

[22:27:16] <stpere> right?

[22:27:20] <duaneb> I should reword the above :P

[22:27:28] <duaneb> python keeps crashing *haiku* when I enable pthreads...

[22:27:33] <stpere> oh

[22:27:42] <urnenfeld> luck stpere ;)

[22:27:48] <duaneb> as in, triple fault crash which is strange :/

[22:28:16] <stpere> bbl, going home

[22:28:55] <leavengood> duaneb: you get into KDL?

[22:29:02] <duaneb> leavengood, triple fault crash

[22:29:15] <duaneb> so it flips to the bios

[22:29:20] <leavengood> ah, wow

[22:29:31] <axeld> duaneb: real hardware?

[22:29:43] <duaneb> axeld, no, vmware

[22:30:08] <axeld> duaneb: good, especially if it's reproducible

[22:30:14] <duaneb> ok

[22:30:16] <duaneb> I'll try again

[22:31:08] <duaneb> though be warned: I've been using my own mouse driver for about ~3 days now

[22:31:15] <duaneb> so that also might have been the source

[22:32:18] <axeld> duaneb: why was that needed?

[22:33:00] <duaneb> axeld, it wasn't :P

[22:33:16] <duaneb> axeld, I'm perfecting my driver skills

[22:33:17] <axeld> duaneb: so you just wrote it for fun?

[22:33:21] <duaneb> axeld, yes

[22:33:24] <axeld> okay

[22:35:34] <duaneb> ok, how can I copy a file to the image?

[22:35:37] <duaneb> just a straight-up file

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[22:38:44] <duaneb> automatically

[22:39:06] <CIA-50> oruizdorantes * r24867 /haiku/trunk/src/kits/bluetooth/RemoteDevice.cpp: Added copyright

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[22:41:01] <axeld> duaneb: you mean as part of the build?

[22:41:08] <duaneb> axeld, yes

[22:41:11] <duaneb> :)

[22:41:57] <axeld> duaneb: to add the file "advisory_locking_test" to /boot/bin:

[22:42:01] <axeld> duaneb: AddFilesToHaikuImage beos bin : advisory_locking_test ;

[22:42:18] <axeld> duaneb: that would have been /boot/beos/bin, obviously

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[22:42:31] <duaneb> ok

[22:42:35] <duaneb> axeld, thanks much :)

[22:42:56] <duaneb> where advisory_locking_test is in the haiku source root?

[22:43:03] <rimidan> huh, anyone get the osnews "comics"

[22:43:10] <rimidan> they should link some real comics instead

[22:43:35] <rimidan> oh well, anyone have a receip for installing haiku on a real machine?

[22:43:50] <rimidan> it won't boot in vmware 6 for me

[22:44:23] <duaneb> rimidan, it wont?!?!

[22:44:35] <pyCube> hmm.. if something has been marked as 'skipped', what do you call the process of returning it to its non-skipped state?

[22:44:36] <rimidan> nope, just hangs

[22:45:04] <duaneb> huh

[22:45:09] <duaneb> hangs where?

[22:45:14] <duaneb> on the boot screen?

[22:45:20] <duaneb> on the bootloader?

[22:45:30] <rimidan> yeah, well, the haiku logo shows then nothing more

[22:45:53] <axeld> duaneb: where advisory_locking_test is a Jam target

[22:46:02] <axeld> duaneb: but you can specify a full path there, too

[22:46:21] <rimidan> why do you guys use Jam?!?

[22:46:27] * rimidan shrugs

[22:46:38] <rimidan> CMake is the shit these days ya know :-)

[22:46:49] <duaneb> rimidan, jam works

[22:46:53] <DeadYak> which wasn't around when this build system was created.

[22:47:01] <rimidan> duaneb, any advice on how to diagnose?

[22:47:11] <duaneb> rimidan, press f12

[22:47:17] <duaneb> does something pop up?

[22:47:18] <axeld> rimidan: Having had a look at CMake, I can only disagree, though :-)

[22:47:33] <rimidan> i use cmake a lot, in kde, etc

[22:47:34] <rimidan> works great

[22:47:58] <rimidan> (yes, i had the unfortunate pleasure to work with jam and make/autoconf)

[22:48:05] <rimidan> duaneb, nothing happends

[22:48:23] <duaneb> ok, you're pretty much screwed for my advice

[22:48:28] <axeld> rimidan: it's design is pretty much broken, though - it requires a lot of work for *every* project to make it build on another platform

[22:48:29] <duaneb> ask someone who knows something

[22:48:38] <duaneb> axeld, for example

[22:48:57] <rimidan> axeld, not my experience. Have you looked at recent versions?

[22:49:12] <rimidan> my experience is that it requires *little* work

[22:49:23] <duaneb> rimidan, I used it last

[22:49:27] <duaneb> it was painful >.<

[22:49:30] <rimidan> last?

[22:49:42] <DeadYak> from what I've seen, CMake only really looks nicer if you're used to auto*

[22:49:49] <duaneb> sorry, my mind is not suited for language right now. Last week.

[22:49:59] <rimidan> oh well, ymmv

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[22:50:03] <duaneb> you guys looked at quagmire?

[22:50:08] <rimidan> in my head, it's the best buildsystem out there

[22:50:17] <duaneb> I know nothing about it, but hey, anything's better than auto*

[22:50:20] <rimidan> autoconf is as bad as osnews comics

[22:50:29] <rimidan> duaneb, exactly

[22:50:55] <pyCube> anything?

[22:51:01] <rimidan> even perl scripts

[22:51:02] <duaneb> axeld: AddFilesToHaikuImage beos bin : $(HOME)/develop/trunk/cross/python ; ?

[22:51:13] <duaneb> pyCube, anything

[22:51:35] <rimidan> compiling by hand beats autoconf ;)

[22:51:35] <duaneb> I've just spent the last three hours beating python's configure.in into submission

[22:51:39] <axeld> rimidan: well, for example, they don't have platform specific built-in paths. If you want to check for the existence of libpng.so for example, you're all on your own

[22:51:53] <rimidan> axeld, that's wrong

[22:52:20] <rimidan> find_library, et. al.

[22:52:26] <axeld> rimidan: what I'm saying? Or how they did it? :-)

[22:52:45] <rimidan> yes, what you're saying is wrong

[22:52:57] <axeld> rimidan: I ported an application to BeOS that uses CMake, and I can only say I won't consider using it

[22:52:58] <rimidan> there are several ways of probing libs

[22:53:15] <rimidan> they used it in a bad way then, i guess

[22:53:32] <rimidan> anyway, you prefer Jam over cmake so you must be insane

[22:53:38] <rimidan> and i don't talk to insane people

[22:53:40] <rimidan> :-)

[22:53:44] <rimidan> anyway, see ya later fuckers

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[22:53:48] <emitrax> axeld: I read your email. What about the scsi-usb problem that is keeping the usb_scsi from getting finished? I'd like to understand that a bit better.

[22:53:50] <duaneb> rimidan, you prefer cmake over Jam so you must be insane

[22:53:53] <hUMUNGUs> 96 people :-)

[22:54:33] <axeld> emitrax: well, since our USB stack doesn't use the newer API, but the SCSI bus manager does, they have a problem talking to one another.

[22:54:56] <axeld> emitrax: also with the revised device_manager, we will still need to port over USB to the new API

[22:55:09] <axeld> emitrax: and SCSI, too, for that matter

[22:57:35] <oco> bonefish : Hi ! Just a little confirmation : bug #2036 is fixed

[22:58:10] <oco> (checked under BeOS R5 BONE)

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[22:59:35] <emitrax> axeld: better to continue this on the mailing list to see what other thinks

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[23:01:23] <duaneb> hey people, I'd like to make a blog post, but I'm afraid that it might show up on the front page of haiku-os.or

[23:01:25] <duaneb> +g

[23:02:03] <duaneb> whoops, I don't have one

[23:02:13] <duaneb> deceiving is the blog tab

[23:03:27] <bonefish> oco: That was the develop/headers dir problem, right?

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[23:07:56] <oco> yes

[23:08:36] <emitrax> http://bluehq.altervista.org//shot2.png

[23:08:49] <axeld> duaneb: it will only show up there if someone puts it there

[23:09:02] <duaneb> axeld, could you enable a blog for me?

[23:09:11] <duaneb> I'd like to talk about my python progress

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[23:09:36] <axeld> duaneb: you can't do that already? I guess duaneb is your username?

[23:09:44] <duaneb> axeld, yea

[23:09:50] <duaneb> blogging is disabled for me

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[23:10:49] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dr_evil

[23:11:18] <emitrax> duaneb: are you sure ?

[23:11:26] <axeld> Hey dr_evil!

[23:11:38] <dr_evil> hi Axel!

[23:11:45] <duaneb> emitrax, yea...

[23:11:47] <duaneb> i'll check again

[23:11:54] <dr_evil> I just got home, was swimming

[23:12:09] <duaneb> "You are not allowed to post a new blog entry."

[23:12:28] <duaneb> emitrax, axeld, definitely disabled

[23:12:57] <axeld> duaneb: I'll have a look

[23:14:23] <CIA-50> bonefish * r24868 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/file_systems/bfs/kernel_interface.cpp: I broke the index dir access when changing the FS interface.

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[23:14:59] <AtomoZero> emitrax yea a like the screenshot!

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[23:15:55] <axeld> duaneb: try again

[23:16:30] <duaneb> looks fine

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[23:16:34] <duaneb> unfortunately, I have to run

[23:16:37] <duaneb> thanks all!

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[23:54:10] <ari-free> now i understand why haiku decided to be binary compatible with r5. R5 is the polaris. if haiku was only source compatible, you'd have changing open source apps tested against a changing OS

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top

   April 8, 2008  
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