April 7, 2008 
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April 7, 2008 [00:00:23] <bombuzal> night all :>[00:00:23] <CIA-50> mmlr * r24847 /haiku/trunk/src/libs/usb/ (USBDevice.cpp USBRoster.cpp): Fix broken build due to forgotten definition of the reserved virtual functions.[00:00:29] *** bombuzal has quit IRC[00:00:33] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[00:00:34] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[00:03:38] *** rsanches has quit IRC[00:04:07] <mmu_man> hmm oddly the dump process works, but it's xres that makes BFS panic[00:05:49] *** Stargater has quit IRC[00:07:40] <MindChild> I am so tired of the launchbar/app menu approach of a "desktop" paradigm[00:07:51] <MindChild> If I wanted to use something that works like windows, Id use windows[00:08:05] <stpere> what do you propose instead?[00:08:19] * duaneb likes the dock...[00:08:23] <duaneb> it's simple[00:08:33] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[00:08:48] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[00:09:23] *** WindowsUninstall has joined #haiku[00:09:34] <ari-free> well there's the pda approach[00:10:36] <MindChild> If I had my way, Id redo everything... so much so people would be horribly uncomfortable[00:10:47] <ari-free> including yourself[00:10:49] <ari-free> :P[00:11:01] <ari-free> what would you do[00:11:17] <MindChild> for insnstance.... menus as they are now are terrible. You have a few pixels of height that if you deviate from, they close[00:11:22] <MindChild> I propose the pie menu[00:11:50] <geist> mmmm, pie[00:11:51] <ari-free> I don't think pie menus work well with many items...[00:12:08] <MindChild> Because no one creates anything with them in mind[00:12:13] <ari-free> there's also an issue when you move the cursor to the edge of the screen[00:12:58] <MindChild> Id happily make my own system... if I didnt have a job and family and all that stuff that takes all of my time :([00:13:11] <MindChild> If I could get a venture capatalist... that would be great[00:13:16] <MindChild> get paid to make it happen[00:13:34] <ari-free> I actually asked tog about this issue...he thinks he has a solution though i would still like to see it for myself[00:13:49] <ari-free> i'll dig up his response[00:14:41] <ari-free> >I wasn't so crazy about the pie menu idea. What happens when you are at the screen's edge? Part of the circle will be cut off.[00:14:43] <ari-free> If you open a pie menu at the screen’s edge, both the menu and the pointer should animate away from the edge so that the entire pie is exposed. The pointer should then be restored to an appropriate place when the menu is closed, chosen to minimize the user’s need to lift and reposition the mouse.[00:14:45] <ari-free> If a touchpad were known to be the pointing device, I might experiment with moving the pointer back to where the user was before he or she moved the mouse to invoke a particular pie menu.[00:15:58] <geist> i dunno, i really really realy really hate it when the mouse pointer gets moved without my input[00:16:33] <geist> i think that's a much worse interface rule to break than the alternative[00:16:40] <MindChild> I think it is simplier than that. Draw the pie menu with the items in a circle as much as it can be along the edge[00:16:41] <ari-free> btw "tog", in case you didn't know already is bruce Tognazzini and came up with the UI for the mac[00:17:21] <MindChild> obviously when using pie menus you need some discipline of not over filling them anyway[00:17:24] <ari-free> geist that's why I was skeptical about the idea. I thought I had a good question :)[00:18:03] *** andrewbachmann has quit IRC[00:18:08] <ari-free> mind but that limits their use as a replacement even for context menus[00:18:11] <MindChild> so if you are in an absolute corner, you ddraw a 1/4 circle of items[00:18:21] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[00:18:21] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[00:18:40] <duaneb> woot[00:18:43] <duaneb> I did something[00:18:43] <MindChild> I HAVE to come up with a proof of concept[00:19:08] <ari-free> :)[00:19:24] <ari-free> well it works for some apps like games[00:19:55] <MindChild> I think with some planning and some open thinking it could work for everything[00:20:13] <mmu_man> crap the file has invalid block runs[00:20:14] <ari-free> tog was also much in favor of the menu on top of the screen. I still don't buy it :)[00:20:38] <mmu_man> let's loose some years doing chkbfs[00:21:39] <ari-free> I think voice recognition would be better. it could work for menu access[00:22:18] <ari-free> not so great for replacing typing[00:23:31] <MindChild> imagine tryiing to code in like C++ with just voice recognition :/[00:23:55] <ari-free> exactly hehe[00:24:15] <duaneb> good god no[00:24:17] <duaneb> no, I think it's touch[00:24:21] <duaneb> like the iphone[00:24:43] <ari-free> tablet pc?[00:25:41] *** MichaelHenry has quit IRC[00:26:25] <ari-free> is there open source writing recognition? there are linux pda's so i would think...[00:27:36] <mmu_man> there are[00:28:27] <ari-free> what about simple voice recognition (discrete should be good enough for menus and simple commands like copy)[00:28:54] <mmu_man> rvn: 774: inode @ 0x803ba428 (2906472) has bad magic 0x2c[00:28:54] <mmu_man>[00:28:55] <mmu_man> Failed to load /glibc-2.3.2/sysdeps/mach/mips/Dist (ino # 2906472)[00:28:55] <mmu_man> rvn: 774: inode @ 0x803ee540 (2906471) has bad magic 0x2c[00:28:56] <mmu_man>[00:28:57] <mmu_man> Failed to load /glibc-2.3.2/sysdeps/mach/mips/cacheflush.c (ino # 2906471)[00:28:58] <mmu_man> hmm[00:29:15] <mmu_man> ari-free I ported CMU Sphynx to BeOS once[00:30:01] <ari-free> cool[00:31:11] <ari-free> darpa funded so it must be good :)[00:32:28] <xcasex> 5[C/win 13[00:32:45] <mmu_man> irssi... :p[00:33:36] <xcasex> lies ;)[00:34:12] <xcasex> brb rebooting teh server ;D[00:34:39] *** xcasex has quit IRC[00:37:33] <mmu_man> http://web.archive.org/web/20050311225709/clapcrest.free.fr/revol/beos/patches/sphinx2-0.4.beos.patch.2.txt but it's down atm[00:38:07] <ari-free> ok[00:38:16] <ari-free> but it can be done[00:38:38] <duaneb> woot[00:38:41] *** xcasex has joined #haiku[00:38:46] <duaneb> I submitted my first patch @ 2040[00:38:50] <xcasex> well there we go.[00:39:03] <xcasex> mmu_man: ltns how are things?[00:39:25] <mmu_man> ?[00:39:49] <mmu_man> ari-free I couldn't get it to work in online mode but offline mode seemed to work[00:40:30] <ari-free> open source 3d drivers, good fonts, voice recognition...Haiku should have it all so that there is less reason for another distro that bundles proprietary tech[00:40:47] <xcasex> heh. just do what gnome did. write a cepstral wrapper :p[00:41:39] <xcasex> and if by "should" you mean, "i'll get knacking on the code mang." then go right ahead. but i think most people in here are doing it in their spare time :)[00:41:50] *** DHowett has joined #haiku[00:42:44] <ari-free> well my biggest concern is haiku forking[00:43:05] <duaneb> oh, yea, I forked it last night[00:43:10] <xcasex> there's no SLS happening :)[00:43:10] <duaneb> licensed it to gpl[00:43:13] <xcasex> so dont worry.[00:43:16] <duaneb> I call it 'Paradell[00:43:17] <duaneb> '[00:43:29] <duaneb> err, Paradelle[00:43:30] <ari-free> gpl haiku?[00:43:39] <ari-free> gpl3 right?[00:43:40] <xcasex> haiku needs more momentum and internal politics plus its own Debian-Legal before that happens.[00:44:22] <duaneb> gpl4[00:44:25] <duaneb> ;)[00:44:41] <ari-free> RMS will love you baby[00:44:41] <duaneb> essentially: All people must sacrifice their life blood for The Source[00:45:00] <xcasex> duaneb: henceforth known as "TEH SORES"[00:45:06] <duaneb> hehe[00:45:21] <xcasex> procton: *wave*[00:46:56] <ari-free> oh I got it! haiku is now under the Poetic license[00:47:45] *** rdmr has quit IRC[00:50:18] <xcasex> troll ;)[00:50:28] <DHowett> :P[00:50:41] <ari-free> gnome :P[00:50:51] *** WindowsUninstall has quit IRC[00:51:34] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[00:52:56] *** HaikuwareDev has joined #Haiku[00:53:15] *** HaikuwareDev has quit IRC[00:54:51] *** luroh has quit IRC[00:56:59] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[00:56:59] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[00:59:19] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[00:59:31] <duaneb> bye y'all[00:59:34] *** duaneb has quit IRC[01:01:00] *** wildur has quit IRC[01:02:06] *** vbmithr has quit IRC[01:09:46] *** burfi has left #haiku[01:10:04] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[01:10:11] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[01:13:08] <mmu_man> WTF[01:13:23] * JonathanThompson hands mmu_man the correct one he's asking for[01:13:53] <mmu_man> bfs can't write the 21MB xemacs binary on dumping :-([01:14:09] * JonathanThompson detects a bug report coming[01:14:48] <mmu_man> well it's reproduceable, but it needs like 100MB of stuff :)[01:15:03] <JonathanThompson> That's a good thing for a bad thing, then.[01:15:14] <JonathanThompson> Far worse would be having no clue how to reproduce it.[01:19:38] * JonathanThompson wonders if Jerry Yang will issue the command to Microsoft upon assimilation, "Sleep!"[01:22:57] <mmu_man> will jam clean and reinstall just in case[01:28:15] *** dchis has joined #haiku[01:28:54] <CIA-50> bonefish * r24848 /haiku/trunk/build/jam/OptionalPackages: Rebuilt libtool package, since the old one seemed to be missing files.[01:29:13] *** _Wiss has joined #haiku[01:34:11] *** petterhj- has quit IRC[01:36:20] *** Thom_Holwerda has quit IRC[01:36:48] *** Wiss_ has quit IRC[01:38:25] <DHowett> god.. luposian. *glares at ml.*[01:38:44] * JonathanThompson is fortunate that it appears he's no longer getting that list...[01:39:02] <JonathanThompson> Is he off rambling insanely again?[01:39:08] <JonathanThompson> (Like there's a choice?)[01:39:14] <DHowett> indeed.[01:39:20] <DHowett> "P.S. Has anyone thought to include me somewhere in the AboutSystem credits? You know... something like "Most annoying pre-alpha tester we've ever known" or something? :-D I'd be glad to offer up a picture of me that would go PERFECTLY with it, too! :-) Make it an Easter Egg (click somewhere special or hit some key combo or something) even..."[01:39:57] <JonathanThompson> He really should be careful what he asks for ;)[01:40:13] * JonathanThompson imagines an easter egg showing Luposian hanging from a noose[01:40:14] <CIA-50> bonefish * r24849 /haiku/trunk/src/bin/ (Jamfile diff_zip.cpp):[01:40:14] <CIA-50> Added small tool diff_zip that I used for building the latest optional[01:40:14] <CIA-50> packages.[01:41:41] <DHowett> Quite an imagination ;P[01:41:58] <stpere> :)[01:42:10] <JonathanThompson> Today during a brief nap, I had a dream where I watched Legos self-assemble and levitate ;)[01:42:17] <DHowett> sweet[01:42:36] <JonathanThompson> That came after I saw a solid brass seal move...[01:43:39] <JonathanThompson> In the dream, I went over to them, and broke the larger chunks down into smaller chunks to see what they'd do in response.[01:43:47] <JonathanThompson> Shortly after that, I woke up...[01:44:40] <cherrypie> I almost never remember dreaming in sleep[01:44:52] <JonathanThompson> Do you remember dreaming while awake?[01:45:29] <cherrypie> don't realy day dream[01:45:33] <cherrypie> really[01:47:26] <cherrypie> and yes I realize that was a stab at the gramatical layout of my last sentence[01:47:58] <JonathanThompson> Well, some people dream while awake, so I was curious. I don't daydream myself.[01:48:06] <JonathanThompson> At least, not while awake.[01:48:58] <cherrypie> I remember maybe one dream a month, maybe less.[01:51:09] *** _Wiss has quit IRC[01:51:15] <cherrypie> ussually only dreams I remember are nightmares, so probably best that I don't remember the vast majority of what goes on in my head while asleep.[01:55:58] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[01:56:12] *** dchis has quit IRC[01:57:29] <MindChild> If you cant remember dreaming while asleep, what makes you think youll remember dreaming while awake?[01:58:01] <JonathanThompson> Because if you're conscious, you'd presumably have more conscious control over the whole thing[01:58:17] <mmadia> ahh, lucid dreaming.[01:58:27] *** TronDD has joined #haiku[01:58:36] <MindChild> nonsense. Just because your concious mind is working doesnt mean it is lucid[01:58:41] <MindChild> que sleepwalking[01:59:00] <JonathanThompson> How do you know your conscious mind is required for sleepwalking?[01:59:14] <MindChild> Else, how would you interact with your surroundings[01:59:31] <JonathanThompson> How does anyone drive a car without conscious thought?[01:59:46] <MindChild> Im not even going to continue[01:59:49] <JonathanThompson> I don't think conscious thought is required for all complex tasks.[02:00:00] <MindChild> You are just trying to twist semantics until it fits your agenda[02:00:10] <JonathanThompson> I agree that's exactly what you're doing.[02:04:32] *** Nedlinpopo has joined #haiku[02:05:10] <Nedlinpopo> does anyone here run haiku in Qemu on OSX?[02:05:29] <JonathanThompson> Not aware of anyone doing that, Nedlinpopo.[02:05:36] <Nedlinpopo> bummer[02:07:25] <Nedlinpopo> is anybody running haiku on apple hardware yet?[02:07:41] <JonathanThompson> That's a question I'd like to see answered myself.[02:07:52] <JonathanThompson> I'm typing this on an iMac 20".[02:08:08] <JonathanThompson> It'd make a nice system for it, if Haiku would boot and run with the hardware available.[02:08:18] *** Schmedly3D has joined #haiku[02:08:30] <JonathanThompson> Perhaps after the x86 version is done, someone will port Haiku to the iPhone ;)[02:08:40] <Nedlinpopo> the supported hardware ist indicates it will probbaly at least do something[02:08:51] <Nedlinpopo> if it boots[02:09:01] <JonathanThompson> Always that minor issue ;)[02:09:02] <Nedlinpopo> i'm interested in parallels[02:09:10] <Nedlinpopo> as wel[02:09:12] <Nedlinpopo> l[02:09:48] <Nedlinpopo> i've been trying to get a system to do BeOS for like 10 years now[02:09:59] <Nedlinpopo> and this weekend i'm trying again.[02:10:04] <JonathanThompson> What are you getting?[02:10:06] <mmadia> on what hardware?[02:10:18] <Nedlinpopo> mmadia: ON VARIOUS THINGS[02:10:24] <Nedlinpopo> stupid capslock[02:10:27] <Nedlinpopo> sorry[02:10:36] <mmadia> Nedlinpopo have you seen http://bootdisks.beusers.de ?[02:10:37] <JonathanThompson> If you get a motherboard that has the 440 BX/GX chipset, chances are it'll work.[02:10:45] <Nedlinpopo> at the moment i have a macbook[02:10:48] <mmadia> JonathanThompson "chances" ?[02:11:06] <Nedlinpopo> mmadia: no, thnaks for the url[02:11:08] <JonathanThompson> Very high chance: I'm sitting next to a dual p3-450 with the 440 GX chipset.[02:11:10] *** MLacey has joined #haiku[02:11:21] <JonathanThompson> A Tyan motherboard.[02:11:36] <mmadia> JonathanThompson come on, an intel 440 is pretty much guaranteed.[02:11:39] <JonathanThompson> But that chipset (440 BX) is very common from that era, and the GX is the server version.[02:11:53] <JonathanThompson> True, but it's the supporting hardware that may be questionable ;)[02:11:54] <mmadia> video + sound + nic on the other hand .... : )[02:12:32] <JonathanThompson> I bet if you look on Craig's List, you'll find hardware people are practically willing to pay you to haul away that has it, though they may be clueless as to what's under the hood.[02:12:40] <mmadia> i've two 440BX's here that refuse to die. for the past few weeks, one has been my primary system[02:12:59] *** daste has quit IRC[02:13:07] *** oco has quit IRC[02:13:20] <MindChild> JonathanThompson: concious thought and counciousness are completely two different things[02:13:23] <mmadia> and it's a p3-1.3ghz tualatin celeron : P[02:13:35] <JonathanThompson> The motherboard I've got right now I've had in use since January 2000, it's gone through an indirect lightning strike, a direct lightning strike, and a > 90% on duty cycle in that time.[02:13:45] <Nedlinpopo> i dont' actually have any[02:13:47] <Nedlinpopo> PCs[02:14:17] <Nedlinpopo> but i had access to a lab once around 02-04, whic was the last serious attempt i made[02:16:26] <TronDD> I just recycled about 200 pounds of PC parts,most of which worked in Zeta. You're not looking in the right places.[02:17:57] <Nedlinpopo> TronDD: I'm not looking very hard[02:18:01] <TronDD> I was using a Dual INtel, 440 something or other for a long time. But tehy broke SMP in Zeta so I just junked it for an AMD board and chip I had.[02:18:17] *** Disreali has joined #haiku[02:18:33] <TronDD> You're worst luck will likely be with laptops. If the onboard stuff doesn't work, you're stuck.[02:19:30] <JonathanThompson> I have a ThinkPad that is (mostly) happy with BeOS, that also works with Haiku.[02:19:45] <JonathanThompson> The sound driver is the biggest issue for reliability.[02:19:54] <JonathanThompson> a21m[02:19:54] *** Penix has joined #haiku[02:20:12] <JonathanThompson> I also have an older Compaq Presario laptop that's fine with BeOS.[02:30:57] *** duaneb has joined #haiku[02:31:11] <duaneb> where is _SC_PAGE_SIZE defined?[02:31:48] <duaneb> or rather, _SC_PAGESIZE?[02:31:55] *** pfoetchen has quit IRC[02:32:15] <MindChild> in my pants[02:34:14] *** MLacey has left #haiku[02:42:26] <duaneb> meh[02:44:35] <mmu_man> unistd.h[02:44:43] * mmu_man pets hgrep[02:46:16] <duaneb> really?[02:46:33] * duaneb suspects that it is generated[02:47:01] <duaneb> yea, it's not in trunk/headers/posix/unistd.h[02:48:27] <duaneb> actually, it's not in /boot/develop/etc either...[02:48:36] * duaneb suspects that mmu_man is slightly crazy[02:48:45] <duaneb> try a grep SC[02:49:42] <DeadYak> he might've been grepping Zeta's headers[02:50:49] <mmu_man> indeed[02:50:50] <duaneb> zeta = evil, p'raps?[02:50:53] <duaneb> :P[02:51:12] <DeadYak> evil why?[02:51:55] <duaneb> because I don't use it[02:52:20] * mmadia just found a 2nd cup of coffee on his desk![02:52:32] <stpere> hehe[02:53:00] <mmu_man> indeed there is no page size SC in haiku[02:53:15] <duaneb> yea, I'll file a bug...[02:53:29] <mmu_man> hmm actually not in zeta either, I didn't read it all[02:53:48] <mmadia> which file is responsible for propigating 'install-haiku' ?[02:54:08] <DeadYak> build/jam/HaikuImage most likely[02:54:21] <mmu_man> http://opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xsh/unistd.h.html[02:56:36] <duaneb> gah, I hate binary compatibility.[02:56:43] <duaneb> what do people REALLY need it for?[02:57:04] <DeadYak> what does that have to do with a missing header constant?[02:57:24] <duaneb> well, if I'm adding the constants, I can't just make them arbitrary values :P[02:58:12] <duaneb> and there's no reference[02:58:25] <DeadYak> it's not the system page size?[02:58:51] <duaneb> DeadYak, well, _SC_PAGESIZE is a value that sysconf() uses to return the page size[02:58:59] <duaneb> it's fairly convoluted[02:59:20] <DeadYak> right, but the page size isn't exactly a value that can be chosen arbitrarily regardless :)[03:00:18] <duaneb> I was referring to _SC_PAGESIZE, which will be a value like 4[03:00:21] <duaneb> or 42[03:01:30] <zlominus> 1337 maybe :)[03:01:47] <mmu_man> oddly there are lots of calls to sysconf(_SC_PAGESIZE) in src/system/libroot/...[03:01:51] <mmu_man> probably dead code[03:04:49] <duaneb> are there guards around them?[03:06:30] <duaneb> and is there any way to get zeta?[03:08:20] <CIA-50> mmu_man * r24850 /haiku/trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Add _SC_PAGE_SIZE sysconf().[03:09:26] <duaneb> mmu_man, you also need _SC_PAGESIZE[03:10:02] <mmu_man> #define _SC_PAGE_SIZE 27[03:10:02] <mmu_man> #define _SC_PAGESIZE _SC_PAGE_SIZE[03:10:38] *** absabs has joined #haiku[03:12:18] <duaneb> excelletn[03:28:33] <duaneb> ok, mmu_man, seems to work great[03:29:33] *** absabs has quit IRC[03:45:50] *** duaneb has left #haiku[03:53:24] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[03:56:14] *** absabs has joined #haiku[04:01:12] <mmadia> DHowett iirc, libpurple isn't a good candidate for porting to haiku[04:01:29] <DHowett> Why? =\[04:02:19] <mmadia> a dev explained to me that gtk's messaging system wouldn't mesh well.[04:02:37] <mmadia> basically it would become more of a rewrite than a port.[04:02:46] <DHowett> ahh ><[04:03:17] <mmadia> at least that's what i understood from the convo : )[04:03:26] <DHowett> alright[04:03:27] <DHowett> thanks[04:04:19] <mmadia> on haiku-os.org ,there's a thread about new imkit work.[04:06:20] <ari-free> IM...something I haven't used in years hehe[04:06:52] <mmadia> http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/haiku_client_for_im_kit[04:08:11] <DHowett> *nods*[04:09:46] * ari-free cajoled into getting safari...no I really don't like those blue scrollbars[04:10:11] <DHowett> eww[04:12:29] <ari-free> I think flock is more interesting[04:19:32] <DHowett> Hmm, can't get glib-2.0 off bebits. None of the mirrors like me :P[04:22:44] <umccullough> yay broken links![04:22:51] <umccullough> try beshare?[04:23:08] <mmadia> 2.0.4 is there[04:25:34] <DHowett> ah, thanks[04:30:35] <ari-free> I’m using Windows, Windows, Windows 386,[04:30:37] <ari-free> so all my applications are running at once.[04:30:47] <ari-free> whoa whoa windows whoa whoa windows Windows 386![04:31:03] <ari-free> i love that video[04:31:24] <ari-free> it proves that microsoft is truly evil[04:33:33] <mmadia> mmmm.. Windows 3.11[04:33:51] <ari-free> no this is even earlier[04:34:39] <mmadia> yeah, but it sparked memories of a friend installing it in the school's pc's w/o permission : )[04:37:17] *** treohelf has joined #haiku[04:37:22] <treohelf> yo[04:37:24] <DHowett> nice ;)[04:37:35] <mmadia> flehoert ![04:37:42] <treohelf> who was it that wanted an IBM model M keyboard cable?[04:38:06] <treohelf> !aidamm[04:38:31] * treohelf finallly found a cable :)[04:45:45] *** DieNadel has joined #haiku[04:48:59] *** Tonik has quit IRC[04:58:41] <treohelf> wake up people :P[05:00:20] <DHowett> *wakes up and promptly falls off his bed* What is the meaning of this?![05:02:35] *** erim- has joined #haiku[05:03:07] <treohelf> im bored :P[05:03:20] <DHowett> oh. good reason. :D[05:03:40] *** erim has quit IRC[05:03:41] *** erim- is now known as erim[05:03:50] *** TronDD has quit IRC[05:04:41] *** _Disreali has joined #haiku[05:05:47] *** freesbie has joined #haiku[05:05:58] *** A-v-S has joined #haiku[05:07:11] <treohelf> :)[05:08:10] *** Disreali has quit IRC[05:08:12] *** MindChild has quit IRC[05:08:12] *** aphedox has quit IRC[05:08:13] *** MrSunshine__ has quit IRC[05:08:15] *** AndrevS has quit IRC[05:08:18] *** stpere has quit IRC[05:08:53] *** MindChild has joined #haiku[05:11:12] *** TronDD has joined #haiku[05:11:38] <treohelf> wtf[05:11:47] *** Disreali has joined #haiku[05:11:47] *** aphedox has joined #haiku[05:11:47] *** MrSunshine__ has joined #haiku[05:11:47] *** AndrevS has joined #haiku[05:12:59] * ozy` surfs the netsplit[05:13:03] <ozy`> COWABUNGAAAAAAAAA[05:13:27] <treohelf> :P[05:15:45] *** zlominus has quit IRC[05:16:42] *** stpere has joined #haiku[05:21:31] *** Disreali has quit IRC[05:21:43] *** stiletto has joined #haiku[05:23:05] *** MichaelHenry has joined #haiku[05:24:17] *** DHowett has left #haiku[05:24:20] *** AndrevS has quit IRC[05:27:03] <treohelf> good god[05:27:13] *** koki_haiku has joined #haiku[05:27:41] *** koki_haiku has quit IRC[05:28:17] *** koki_haiku has joined #haiku[05:28:24] <ari-free> hi[05:28:25] *** DieNadel has quit IRC[05:28:39] *** koki_haiku has quit IRC[05:28:46] *** koki_haiku has joined #haiku[05:28:53] <treohelf> yo[05:28:58] <koki_haiku> howdy[05:30:28] <ari-free> what happened to yellowtab? did they have all these people who used to work on beos?[05:31:06] *** koki_haiku has quit IRC[05:31:16] <geist> i dont think so[05:32:05] <ari-free> how did it work? zeta obviously was based on beos but it was updated somehow[05:32:36] <geist> sure, but they didn't really have any ex-be engineers[05:32:44] <geist> if that's what you mean by 'used to work on beos'[05:32:45] <ozy`> ari-free: IIRC it was leaked source code[05:32:57] <ari-free> yeah how did they get the code[05:33:24] <geist> it's complicated, and i dont think anyone really knows[05:33:34] <geist> but they probably just got the leaked version that was floating around for a while there[05:33:34] <treohelf> bernd pulled it out of his ass[05:33:55] <geist> seeing as the zeta stuff seemed to be based on the same source code (the 'dano' version)[05:34:01] <ari-free> hmmm maybe that's why they went bust[05:34:08] *** mmadia has quit IRC[05:34:12] <ari-free> i thought they had some special deal[05:34:26] <geist> well the primary reason is apparently no one wants to buy it[05:34:31] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[05:34:32] <DeadYak> was going to say..[05:34:35] *** koki_haiku has joined #haiku[05:34:40] <DeadYak> .evening koki[05:34:46] <koki_haiku> hey DeadYak[05:34:56] <ozy`> people don't like to pay for an OS[05:34:59] <treohelf> yo yak[05:35:02] <geist> hardly anyone bought it when Be sold it, folks still dont want to pay for it[05:35:06] <absabs> good evening koki[05:35:12] <absabs> hi deadyak[05:35:31] <koki_haiku> hi absabs[05:35:32] <koki_haiku> bbl[05:35:35] <DeadYak> absabs: hiya[05:35:43] <absabs> :-D[05:36:02] <ari-free> true. but some people did buy zeta even years after be inc died[05:36:36] <geist> to stay in business, you have to sell enough so that your profit from sales exceeds your operating expenses[05:37:03] <ari-free> yes of course[05:37:57] <geist> i'm being sarcastic of course[05:38:02] *** _Disreali has quit IRC[05:38:03] <geist> but yeah, the market just doesn't exist[05:38:13] <geist> didn't really exist 10 years ago either[05:38:20] <ari-free> but it didn't help that bend was a crook :)[05:38:21] <geist> it maybe existed 15 years back[05:38:27] <treohelf> damn cheap bastards! :P[05:38:55] <geist> but by the end of the 90s it was getting pretty clear that there wasn't enough space to compete with windows on PC in the commercial space[05:38:58] <ozy`> with the advent of the internet, I would go so far as to say there is no market anywhere for an OS that isn't thoroughly established[05:39:01] *** TronDD has quit IRC[05:39:06] <geist> ozy`: yeah, basically[05:39:25] <DeadYak> yes and no, if anything I'd say the internet's made what OS you're running somewhat less essential[05:39:26] <ari-free> the internet is now the OS[05:39:28] <geist> open source has the benefit of not having to close shop because no one uses it 'now[05:39:31] <ozy`> and even then, the customer had better be getting something more than just the software[05:39:36] <treohelf> windows is here to stay[05:39:40] <geist> so you can just keep banging on it until it establishes[05:39:45] <ozy`> treohelf: heh, we'll see ;)[05:39:51] <geist> but commerical product you have to get your return pretty quickly[05:40:00] <DeadYak> or have very patient investors :)[05:40:05] <ozy`> rumor has it MS is trying to completely ditch its old codebase[05:40:06] <geist> and writing an operating system is extremely expensive[05:40:12] <ari-free> what about apple? they've seen some success[05:40:28] <geist> they have also been working on it for 20 years[05:40:30] <ozy`> ari-free: with a pay-to-play OS, you mean?[05:40:39] <ozy`> I'd say they're established[05:40:45] <ari-free> 20 years but people bought it for 20 years[05:40:46] <geist> and they dont directly compete, or at least didn't until they were already established[05:40:55] <geist> not really. the first 10 years it lost money[05:40:59] <geist> (Nextstep)[05:41:04] <geist> but it got a second coming[05:41:36] <ari-free> then there was amiga[05:41:47] <treohelf> someone mention nextstep?[05:41:47] <treohelf> :)[05:41:48] <ari-free> people still using it hehe[05:41:49] <ozy`> ari-free: apple was selling systems 8 and 9 while there was still a semi-decent OS market[05:41:57] <geist> treohelf: sure. I use it all the time[05:42:01] <geist> it's called OSX nowadays[05:42:06] <treohelf> heh[05:42:13] <treohelf> that's a bastardized nextstep[05:42:51] <ari-free> oh yeah? mac os x doesn't have those menus[05:42:56] <treohelf> ari-free : I want an amiga :P[05:43:08] <treohelf> what menus?[05:43:47] <ari-free> you know, the vertical menu on the left side of the screen[05:44:21] <treohelf> oh. osx is directly decended from openstep though[05:44:57] <geist> the shell is different of course[05:45:00] <geist> but teh guts are the same[05:45:18] <ari-free> castrated with unix[05:45:49] <treohelf> up to, I think, osx 10.3, you coud do tear off menus[05:45:49] <treohelf> they broke it completely in 10.4[05:45:49] <treohelf> more or less[05:45:49] <treohelf> what?[05:45:49] <treohelf> unix is great[05:45:50] <treohelf> "unix"[05:45:52] <treohelf> its a mach core with bsd userland[05:46:14] <treohelf> is darwin still mach based?[05:46:17] <treohelf> xnu or something, right?[05:46:24] <geist> yep[05:46:25] <geist> same code[05:46:32] <ozy`> it's mach-based in a very, very scary way[05:46:33] <geist> xnu == mach + bsd + iokit[05:46:38] <ari-free> yeah there's is this major misconception that it uses freebsd[05:46:46] <geist> correct. it does not[05:46:47] <ozy`> ari-free: it does... sort of[05:46:54] <treohelf> its just the userland[05:47:05] *** infamy has quit IRC[05:47:09] <geist> the bsd bits in the kernel came from freebsd as well[05:47:12] <ozy`> huge chunks of the BSD kernel are grafted directly onto mach[05:47:15] <geist> they've just been munged a lot[05:47:21] <ozy`> ie. they run in kernel space[05:47:26] <geist> right[05:47:31] <DeadYak> http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.5.2/ - if anyone actually wants to look at the code[05:47:42] <ozy`> so it's as much BSD as it is mach (and not particularly much of either, I guess)[05:47:54] <ozy`> very frankenstinian[05:48:06] <geist> right[05:48:10] <treohelf> I love frankenstein :P[05:48:30] <DeadYak> young frankenstein![05:48:31] <ozy`> treohelf: what's this about tear-off menus, by the way?[05:48:38] <geist> mach still does the low level kernel stuff, bsd adds the fs layers + posixy stuff (fork, posix threads, signals, etc)[05:48:49] <ari-free> tear off menus is a classic Next feature[05:48:54] <ozy`> I've been using OS X since the public beta and I don't remember that feature[05:48:57] <geist> so it's still mach for scheduler, VM, messages[05:49:11] <geist> BSD kind of wraps on top of that to 'emulate' unix[05:49:15] <treohelf> ozy, if you selected a sub menu? you could "tear" it off and leave it on screen[05:49:24] *** absabs has quit IRC[05:49:32] <geist> treohelf: are you sure? I never saw it either[05:49:42] <treohelf> ozy, you had to do a little system hack to enable it[05:49:45] <treohelf> but the hacks no longer work past 10.3 I believe[05:49:47] <ozy`> ah[05:49:50] <treohelf> yes[05:49:53] <treohelf> im positive[05:49:53] <ozy`> well I never knew about the hack[05:50:00] <geist> aahh, yeah. just googled it[05:50:04] <geist> there was a hack to do it, yeah[05:50:07] <geist> went away in 10.4[05:50:12] <geist> oh well, never saw it, dont miss it[05:50:13] <treohelf> yeah :([05:50:18] <treohelf> its a great feature[05:50:24] <ari-free> os x also doesn't have a filesystem that any bsd would use[05:50:26] <treohelf> I don't know why they killed it[05:50:43] <geist> probably they rewrote it and didn't deem it necessary[05:50:44] <treohelf> I use it a ton on my nxt. heh[05:50:49] <treohelf> :([05:50:54] <treohelf> rhapsody had it too[05:51:03] <ozy`> they've been rewriting a lot of the system internals[05:51:06] <geist> of course, being an intermedia hybrid[05:51:09] <geist> intermediate[05:51:16] <ozy`> to remove the layers upon layers of redundant stuff[05:51:21] <treohelf> I wish they'd left it[05:51:30] <geist> ari-free: 10.0 still highly suggested using ufs, but over time hfs became the one you should use[05:51:51] <geist> probably because at the time the ufs driver was more stable and complete, and the next guys were more in charge at apple[05:51:57] <treohelf> 10.0 sucked bad.. :P[05:52:17] <geist> yeah, it definitely needed some work[05:52:35] <geist> 10.2 was when it started gettign to be really good[05:52:42] <freesbie> hi[05:52:43] <geist> that's about when i bought my second mac, and started using it for real[05:52:43] <ari-free> I wonder how they'd be able to get everything to switch to a new fs[05:53:01] <DeadYak> install-time wizard to convert FSes, done.[05:53:16] <freesbie> may i get a free haiku copy in painless way?[05:53:19] <DeadYak> kinda like that fat->ntfs converter MS had in their NT-based install r outines[05:53:22] <treohelf> why the hell they used hfs+ is beyond me[05:53:32] <ozy`> treohelf: UFS didn't support resource forks[05:53:40] <geist> treohelf: because it already existed?[05:53:42] <ozy`> which broke every non-cocoa app[05:53:45] <DeadYak> a) resource forks, b) most Mac apps weren't happy with case sensitivity[05:53:46] <treohelf> deadyak, you can run that post installl.. I have to use it constantly..[05:53:51] <treohelf> oh[05:53:52] <DeadYak> treohelf: yeah I know[05:53:57] <ari-free> it sounds as if moving fs's is harder than moving OS9>OSX and ppc>intel[05:54:00] <freesbie> haiku = a BeOs clone?[05:54:04] <geist> and from a design point of view hfs+ is not that bad[05:54:10] <ozy`> freesbie: uhhhh[05:54:12] <geist> people diss on it a lot, but it's not terrible[05:54:21] <ozy`> freesbie: yes, it is, but it's still pre-alpha[05:54:24] <treohelf> ok[05:54:27] <DeadYak> the one thing I do wonder about HFS+ is what prompted them to choose B* over B+[05:54:28] <freesbie> oww[05:54:35] <DeadYak> not saying that's bad, but I'm curious[05:54:45] <geist> and once dbg got in there and hacked in the journal, it got to be halfway decent[05:54:52] <freesbie> is haiku free, may i ask this?[05:54:53] <treohelf> heh[05:54:57] <DeadYak> freesbie: MIT license so yes[05:54:58] <treohelf> yes[05:54:59] <treohelf> its free[05:55:04] <ari-free> yes haiku is free in all ways[05:55:09] <geist> libre[05:55:14] <DeadYak> it's not RMS "free" though if that's what you mean[05:55:36] <freesbie> i couldn't find the download link on the official site[05:55:49] <DeadYak> there isn't one currently unless you want to run VMWare images[05:55:49] * geist wanders off[05:55:53] <DeadYak> see ya geist[05:56:06] <treohelf> cya[05:56:14] <freesbie> is haiku the free-beer or the free-speech?[05:56:19] <ari-free> both[05:56:31] <freesbie> how can it...[05:56:36] <ozy`> freesbie: let's be clear, it's not to the point yet where you can pop in an install CD and have it cleanly replace your system[05:56:37] <DeadYak> like I said it's an MIT license[05:56:44] <DeadYak> = you can do whatever the heck you want with the source tree[05:56:44] <treohelf> wtf does free as in beer meann I never understood that one...[05:56:54] <DeadYak> treohelf: you and me both....[05:56:55] <ozy`> treohelf: not a native english speaker? :p[05:56:58] <mmadia> no $ down[05:57:02] <treohelf> im native[05:57:07] <DeadYak> most bars I've been to make you pay for beer :P[05:57:13] <ari-free> you know...someone goes to a bar and announces "all the beer is on me!"[05:57:14] <treohelf> you gotta pay for beer[05:57:20] <DeadYak> sure but someone still has to pay for it[05:57:25] <treohelf> still makes no sense[05:57:26] <ari-free> but not you[05:57:28] <DeadYak> so that analogy still never makes sense for me[05:57:33] <geist> ari-free: ah, so it's free, but only for a short time, so get as much as you can?[05:57:33] <mmadia> treohelf would "free gas" hit closer to home for you? : )[05:57:34] <ozy`> beer is a physical object, protected by property rights, not copyright laws[05:57:34] <freesbie> i guess... only the club members could download haiku?[05:57:47] <DeadYak> freesbie: anybody can download the svn tree[05:57:54] <freesbie> wow[05:57:55] <mmadia> DeadYak ah, but they could homebrew the beer at home for much less money : )[05:58:03] <ozy`> freesbie: you're free to download it but good luck trying to install it if you don't know what you're doing[05:58:04] <ari-free> it's just a metaphor[05:58:11] <treohelf> heh[05:58:16] <ari-free> IE is free beer[05:58:18] <treohelf> a crappy metaphor ;-)[05:58:42] <ari-free> they give it away to lock you in windows[05:58:46] <freesbie> i thought that if i didn't donate money and i couldn't download anything...[05:59:03] <treohelf> that's skyos[05:59:08] <treohelf> heh[05:59:08] <freesbie> hahaha[05:59:12] <freesbie> hahahahahaha[05:59:20] <treohelf> skyos is a pay for beta[05:59:43] <freesbie> is that strange?[05:59:51] <treohelf> ...no?[05:59:55] <DeadYak> freesbie: http://www.haiku-os.org/documents/dev/building_haiku_on_ubuntu_linux_step_by_step[05:59:56] <freesbie> windows did the same thing[06:00:02] <ari-free> skyos isn't that expensive...it's like entertainment[06:00:13] <treohelf> its pretty cheap[06:00:22] <ari-free> you pay $ to be part of computer history[06:00:31] <ari-free> help the budding genius[06:00:32] <DeadYak> if you're really curious to play around with it at this point[06:00:33] <freesbie> DeadYak, ty[06:00:34] <treohelf> what, 36usd?[06:01:03] <freesbie> hahaha[06:01:11] <freesbie> it's really cheap[06:01:16] <ari-free> some people pay money to see a play...others want to see an OS[06:02:26] <treohelf> I gotta finish my room[06:02:26] <treohelf> bbl[06:02:36] * DeadYak read 'mom' at first glance[06:02:48] <freesbie> mom?[06:02:53] <ari-free> coconut[06:02:58] <DeadYak> never mind :)[06:03:01] <treohelf> D:[06:03:01] <treohelf> no...[06:03:01] <treohelf> cya later[06:03:04] <DeadYak> later helf :P[06:03:08] <treohelf> heh[06:03:11] <treohelf> night[06:03:55] <freesbie> !time[06:04:44] <DeadYak> 23:04 here[06:04:52] <freesbie> mmm[06:04:58] <DeadYak> (central USA)[06:05:16] <freesbie> texas?[06:05:25] <DeadYak> not me[06:05:34] *** treohelf has quit IRC[06:06:34] <freesbie> texas = serial killers and sex abusers?[06:07:02] <freesbie> forgive me, i learnt this on tv[06:07:19] <DeadYak> not really :P[06:07:23] <DeadYak> I'm not in texas anyways[06:07:39] <ozy`> freesbie: what country you from?[06:07:46] <DeadYak> looks like Taiwan[06:08:28] <ari-free> texas is a big state. it has all kinds of people[06:08:39] <ari-free> I have a friend who will move there soon[06:08:48] <DeadYak> I lived in Dallas for a few months, but that was years ago[06:09:28] <freesbie> ozy`, it has no name[06:09:49] <ozy`> "it has no name" ain't no country I never heard of[06:10:09] <freesbie> learn it now[06:10:14] <freesbie> it exists[06:10:33] <ari-free> yeah on Second Life[06:10:46] <freesbie> ....[06:10:51] <freesbie> .....[06:11:47] *** freesbie has left #haiku[06:12:54] *** mmadia has quit IRC[06:12:58] <MichaelHenry> hello[06:14:59] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[06:16:45] *** MichaelHenry has quit IRC[06:17:31] <DeadYak> http://www.xkcd.com/ - LOL[06:18:05] *** Teknomancer has joined #haiku[06:23:11] <[Katisu]> .t CDT[06:23:32] <[Katisu]> bah, no buildfactory again[06:24:33] <DeadYak> [Katisu]: CDT = 23:23[06:28:05] <[Katisu]> DeadYak, don't need a cheap GPS for that, usually I can figure that out on my own[06:28:55] <DeadYak> that'd be an amusing GPS though[06:32:31] *** crash| has quit IRC[06:45:05] <ozy`> http://www.pawfal.org/fluxus/ <== useless but cool[06:45:18] <geist> heh, luposian nukes his partition again[06:45:36] <geist> not sure what sort of reinforcement to 'this isn't even alpha yet' he doesn't understand[06:45:37] <DeadYak> http://xkcd.com/253/[06:46:01] <Teknomancer> Hi all[06:46:14] <DeadYak> geist: tell me about it[06:46:44] <geist> when i test haiku i never ever mount the beos partition for precisely this reason[06:46:58] <geist> and if it did nuke the beos parition, no big deal[06:47:03] <geist> it's just there for loading haiku[06:47:21] <DeadYak> indeed, especially with the current transaction issue[07:00:24] <geist> anyway, maybe this is a good example to others why haiku doens't just jam install cds out there or not[07:00:45] <geist> it's important that an OS (and especially file systems) are extremely stable before doing any sort of mass test[07:01:01] <geist> much more so than other apps[07:03:03] <DeadYak> maybe he'll finally grasp that concept now[07:03:08] <Teknomancer> haiku's BFS implementation isn't stable yet?[07:03:23] <DeadYak> FSes tend to be the hardest part of any OS to get all the subtle bugs out of[07:03:40] <DeadYak> especially since until recently no one was really trying to stress it too hard[07:03:47] <DeadYak> now that people are trying to do builds, all those will be found[07:08:38] <geist> Teknomancer: yeah, and specificaly something has regressed recently with regards to the journal[07:08:44] <geist> some hackery in that area[07:09:05] <geist> at Be we had an entire room full of machines running fs tests 24/7[07:09:06] <Teknomancer> ah[07:09:11] <ozy`> nice[07:09:13] <geist> to make sure something didn't regress[07:09:30] <ozy`> how many machines?[07:09:37] <geist> dbg was pretty insistent on that. I agreed with him[07:09:44] <geist> 20 or 30 I guess[07:09:47] <geist> Be wasn't that big[07:09:56] <ozy`> yeah[07:10:16] <geist> different types though, scsi/ide, smp/up, etc[07:10:22] <DeadYak> from what I gather, Baron came up with some pretty evil testcases too[07:10:35] <ozy`> how many ex-Be people have seen that Lain anime, by the way? :p[07:11:28] <geist> oh I dunno. lemme query the database of things impossible to know[07:11:34] <geist> .....[07:11:36] <geist> 7[07:12:20] <ozy`> heh, wasn't looking for an exact number or anything :p[07:12:37] <geist> i know i have, though i dont think i ever made it all the way through[07:12:48] <geist> i ripped it at some point and only watched about half of it[07:12:51] <geist> lost the files later[07:13:22] <ozy`> it's a weird show... not quite as mind-blowing as a lot of people say though[07:13:32] <geist> yeah, i think i have to agree[07:13:47] <geist> i wanted to completely get my mind blown, but either it picks up steam later or it's overhyped[07:14:07] <geist> have been watching a bunch of Death Note this weekend, and blew through a bunch of Bleach a while back[07:14:11] <geist> torrents are great[07:14:23] <Teknomancer> fast speed internet is greater[07:14:24] <Teknomancer> :P[07:14:50] <geist> anyway, back to work for a few[07:14:53] <Teknomancer> also my torrents are all getting corrupt recently :/[07:14:57] <Teknomancer> no idea why..[07:14:58] * ozy` salutes[07:14:59] <Teknomancer> cu geist[07:15:08] <ozy`> Teknomancer: they're going across comcast fiber, I bet[07:15:13] <ozy`> (or copper, rather...)[07:15:39] <Teknomancer> and...? what does that have to do with them getting corrupt?[07:15:59] <ozy`> comcast has decided that bittorrent is its sworn enemy, that's all[07:16:06] <Teknomancer> hah[07:16:17] <geist> yeah though i grabbed stuff via torrent today on it[07:16:29] <ozy`> and routinely sabotages all unobfuscated BT traffic that it gets its decomposing mitts on[07:16:35] <geist> though i do get a lot of corrupt messages. I think that's the comcast 'lets insert garbage into the stream' tactic[07:16:41] <ozy`> yeah[07:16:54] <geist> but ultimately BT seems to deal with it[07:17:00] <geist> checksums FTW[07:17:05] <Teknomancer> i thought it was probably my client to blame[07:17:15] <ozy`> yeah, just make sure your client is set up to check for corrupt packets[07:17:19] <ozy`> some aren't by default[07:17:24] <ozy`> like tomato torrent, IIRC[07:17:35] <Teknomancer> hmm,.. i just use the one on ubuntu[07:17:36] <geist> i usually just torrent on a remote linux box, and then rsync the result[07:17:44] <geist> uses more bandwidth on the box, but i dont torrent that much[07:17:45] <Teknomancer> don't even remember its name, very non-flashy just single window client[07:18:06] <Teknomancer> will check for checksums settings when i get back on it[07:19:21] <ozy`> indeed[07:19:31] <ozy`> I wasn't able to tolerate ubuntu for long[07:20:26] <geist> heh, using it right now[07:21:01] <ozy`> the fact that a bunch of apps had hard-coded Windows-style keyboard shortcuts that conflicted with completely unrelated command line shortcuts always made me twitch[07:21:08] <Teknomancer> ubuntu is okay, but its not (nor intended) to be a beos replacement :P[07:21:14] <Teknomancer> i miss R5[07:21:16] *** Thom_Holwerda has joined #haiku[07:21:27] <geist> nope. I like using it for work, since I can't do anything else with it[07:21:41] <geist> less inclined to fire up a game or poke around youtube[07:21:46] <geist> since neither work[07:22:22] <Teknomancer> there too? i thought the youtube thing was just my system with some crazy old packages[07:22:25] <Teknomancer> heh[07:22:38] <geist> never got the exact version of flash to work right[07:23:58] *** AlexForster has quit IRC[07:24:05] <geist> 99 red baloons go by...[07:26:44] <DeadYak> this game is evil[07:26:47] <DeadYak> (Yoshi's Island)[07:27:25] <koki_haiku> hey geist, are you coming to LugRadio Live in SF this coming weekend?[07:27:44] <geist> hmm, what's that?[07:27:52] <koki_haiku> open source conference[07:28:09] <koki_haiku> at the Metreon[07:28:20] <geist> oh, I thought that was later on[07:28:33] <koki_haiku> April 12 & 13[07:28:37] <geist> sure, i'll go[07:28:44] <geist> i was trying to get palm to get me a pass, but they slacked[07:29:06] <koki_haiku> I can get you a pass to the exhibits[07:29:15] <geist> yeah, that'd be killer[07:29:18] <koki_haiku> ok[07:29:30] <geist> wow, already april[07:29:58] <koki_haiku> geist: http://lugradio.org/live/USA2008/[07:31:26] <geist> oh oh this is something else. I see[07:31:33] <geist> i thought it was linuxexpo[07:31:36] *** Teknomancer is now known as _Tek[07:31:43] <geist> or whatever. isn't that at the metreon this year too?[07:31:57] <koki_haiku> linux expo is in Aug[07:32:00] <geist> aug[07:32:05] <koki_haiku> August[07:32:07] <geist> yeah[07:32:26] <geist> 4-7. that's why this one snuck up on me. I thought there was only one[07:32:27] <koki_haiku> and it's in the <can't remember the name of the convention center>[07:32:36] <geist> moscone center[07:32:39] <koki_haiku> right :)[07:32:41] <geist> it's where everything goes down in SF[07:32:51] <geist> it's a happenin place[07:33:03] <geist> so these lugradio guys got big enough to rent that place out, eh? on a weekend too[07:33:18] <koki_haiku> google is doing it for them, I think[07:33:40] <geist> pretty impressive[07:33:43] <koki_haiku> "LRL USA is happening because we're being sponsored by people. We'd like to say a great big thanks to Google, for all the hard work that Leslie Hawthorn, Cat Allman, and Kynan are doing to make LRL happen in America!"[07:34:07] <DeadYak> Leslie Hawthorn? interesting, she's one of the GSoC bigwigs[07:34:09] <geist> oh shit, my buddy ian mckellar is speaking[07:34:10] <koki_haiku> will finally have a chance to meet Lefty from Access[07:34:13] <geist> i should go and rag on him[07:34:20] <geist> he and i carpooled at danger for years[07:34:25] <koki_haiku> heh[07:34:40] <koki_haiku> DeadYak, yes, that's her[07:35:39] <geist> man, i should drop this employmet gig and just go do open source[07:35:44] <geist> i'm getting bored with work[07:35:51] <geist> same old shit over and over again[07:35:53] <geist> ho hum[07:36:02] <DeadYak> oh?[07:36:24] <koki_haiku> go geist go[07:36:33] <geist> get a board, hack some shit together, deal with modem, deal with carriers, go to the factory, fix bugs, get down to the wire, ship the product, go to the next one[07:36:49] <geist> that's why i'm going overboard right now at palm and wayyyy overengineering everything[07:36:53] <geist> only thing that keeps me going[07:37:28] <geist> gamesdev was pretty fun. I didn't know shit, and learning was awesome[07:37:39] <geist> probably get back into that gig one of these days[07:38:10] <DeadYak> it's so hard to find a job you can actually care about nowadays it seems like[07:38:31] <geist> think i'm getting tired of embedded dev. it's like most other areas of sw eng: no one cares, stuff is just hacked together but works, ship it[07:38:42] <geist> difference between doing a great job and a decent job isn't that much to the end user[07:38:43] <ozy`> the caring has gone out of the product itself, and out of the business[07:38:50] <ozy`> so of course the workers are unhappy[07:39:15] <DeadYak> geist: sounds like my job[07:39:21] <_Tek> yes it seems its always ship by the date no matter how unfinished it is[07:39:24] <DeadYak> "here, hack this thing we promised the customers in 2 days together"[07:39:41] <geist> yep. same old stuff[07:39:51] <geist> there are areas where things matter, you just have to search for it[07:39:54] <DeadYak> never mind that they never ask us how long we think it'd take[07:40:51] <cshaiku> good evening peeps[07:41:38] <koki_haiku> night cshaiku`[07:41:45] <cshaiku> you going away?[07:41:59] <koki_haiku> ah, never mind[07:42:06] <koki_haiku> my mind played a trick on me[07:42:09] <cshaiku> I was saying hi. :P[07:42:17] <koki_haiku> yeah, I realized that cshaiku[07:42:29] <cshaiku> oh, I just realized you saw that, just now.. wait for it... good[07:42:32] <cshaiku> hehe[07:42:57] <cshaiku> so you went to that linux expo thing?[07:43:34] <cshaiku> how was it?[07:44:27] <koki_haiku> cshaiku, in spanish (my mother tongue) good evening and good night are the same (buenas noches). seems like sometimes my mind plays a trick on me, and I mix up the two greetings in english[07:44:45] <geist> koki_haiku: well, it's pretty subtle[07:45:08] <geist> there's no reason they aren't the same thing in english, it's just by convention I guess[07:45:12] <geist> stupid language[07:46:40] <koki_haiku> cshaiku, were you asking me about the linux expo?[07:47:18] <cshaiku> yea[07:47:25] <cshaiku> just wanted to know if you went?[07:47:55] <koki_haiku> I have only been to Linux Expo Tokyo in 2005[07:48:03] <cshaiku> ah.[07:48:16] <koki_haiku> with yellowTAB[07:48:19] * koki_haiku ducks[07:48:20] <cshaiku> I was scimming the irc chat text when I got in tonite, and thought I saw you mention going or something[07:48:33] <cshaiku> heh.. supress those memories![07:49:11] <koki_haiku> cshaiku, we have applied for a booth at LW08 (in San Francisco), but we don't know yet whether we will get a spot or not.[07:49:48] <cshaiku> I hope you do, good luck![07:50:16] <koki_haiku> actually, it was umccullough who applied this time[07:50:24] <cshaiku> quick question, totally off topic... Do you know much about this whole google Open Social framework?[07:50:35] <koki_haiku> no clue[07:51:01] <koki_haiku> some kind of API?[07:51:04] <cshaiku> ok, just looking for someone who's a.) heard of it, b.) has some coding experience with it. I'm considering adding this type of framework as a feature to Haiku News[07:51:09] <cshaiku> yeah, its an API[07:52:49] <DeadYak> night guys :)[07:53:16] <cshaiku> later yak[07:53:59] <koki_haiku> cshaiku, so you will add user registration to hn then?[07:54:12] <cshaiku> oh, that's already been in there for 4 years. :)[07:54:24] <cshaiku> along with a commenting system for articles[07:54:34] <cshaiku> I just haven't pushed it into the public api yet[07:55:10] <koki_haiku> ah, ok. for those of us who don't seet it, it's like it's never been there. :)[07:55:15] <cshaiku> indeed[07:56:20] * koki_haiku wonders when the FF redraw bug will be fixed...[07:56:45] <cshaiku> I would love to hook user registration into Open Social, so that anyone who's logged into google or the other opensocial sites, can be logged into Haiku News too[07:56:56] <cshaiku> yeah, that's pretty much where its going[07:57:15] <koki_haiku> more power to Google! :P[07:57:24] <cshaiku> more power to the users[07:57:41] <koki_haiku> that's what Google wants you to believe :)[07:57:53] <cshaiku> well, they're pretty damn smart about it[07:58:10] <koki_haiku> indeed[07:58:19] <cshaiku> I know there are some pundits claiming about information privacy, etc, but I counter with, if you want to be private, stay the F@ck off the internet[07:58:52] <koki_haiku> indeed[07:58:53] <cshaiku> and, who cares about individual users data? I don't give a rats a$$ about some person I've never met[07:59:24] <cshaiku> and I don't care if anyone knows about me online... in the end, it all doesn't matter. Let's just get along, and have a good time[07:59:49] <koki_haiku> it does matters to google though[08:00:31] <cshaiku> well yeah, customers eyeballs are their commodity.[08:00:48] <cshaiku> but they do it in a very socially accepting, and polite way[08:01:17] <koki_haiku> as you say, they are very smart about it[08:01:22] <cshaiku> everyone was so uptight about when there were ads in Gmail when it was first launched, but really, its automated, and only serves as additional information[08:01:34] <cshaiku> and now what does every free webmail have? ads[08:04:54] <cshaiku> I take a very long view of things... The Internet is not going away. It will be extended and expanded such that we'll literally be using it in a physical way inside of 10 years in the form of devices in our clothing, eyewear, food devices (fridges, stoves that cook for us according to an online cookguide automator programme), etc[08:05:04] <cshaiku> maybe 20 years, who knows.[08:05:29] <cshaiku> certainly the near future. We cannot even imagine the things that have yet to be invented 5 years from now, that the Internet will become part of[08:05:54] <cshaiku> so the Internet as we know it now, will be a mere shadow when things change later[08:06:12] <koki_haiku> I hope before that all happens I can be living in a tropical island without having to bother with all the invasive technology[08:07:16] <cshaiku> I would love to sit down at a park bench, and flick into a 3d holographically projected onto my eyeglasses BeShare chat room, complete with 3d avatars representing other members of our Haiku community, and say, "Hey guys, listen, I'll be at that expo in about 30mins, my hoverjet is getting a buff and shine."[08:08:13] <koki_haiku> I would rather lie down in a nice beach watching the waves and babes in bikini :)[08:08:26] <cshaiku> hehe[08:08:40] <cshaiku> and then you are forced to turn it off when the boss enters your cubicle. :)[08:09:49] <cshaiku> we, as a human race, have a long way to go before a common union of ideas expressed as hi-tech become mainstream enough for all to enjoy. We need to solve some very large problems; hunger, war, education, to name a few.[08:10:00] <cshaiku> and that's only in one stupid country. (US). :P[08:10:31] <cshaiku> no, really, I mean to say, Darfur, Africa, pan-asia, these types of places that require the concerted effort of everyone[08:10:50] <cshaiku> it makes me sad. We have so much potential[08:11:28] *** DeadYak has quit IRC[08:12:55] <cshaiku> getting a bit depressed there, holy good god. :P[08:13:00] <cshaiku> thx koki_haiku for listening[08:13:01] <cshaiku> :)[08:13:19] *** _Tek is now known as Teknomancer[08:13:27] <koki_haiku> cheer up man! :)[08:13:34] <cshaiku> I'm cheerful[08:13:35] <cshaiku> heh[08:14:00] <cshaiku> I'm in love too. My girl from PEI and I are back together. its great[08:14:09] <koki_haiku> PEI?[08:14:16] <cshaiku> prince edward island, its on east coast of canada[08:15:00] <koki_haiku> good for you :)[08:15:18] <koki_haiku> anyway, the old man is going to sleep now[08:15:27] <koki_haiku> buenas noches to all! :P[08:15:28] *** tic has joined #haiku[08:15:31] <cshaiku> we're going to get married in a few years, make 2 babies, and live the canadian dream. That's the plan. How it'll go is we get married, maybe have 1 child, grow to hate our lives and work, each other, she stalks me with a cleaver, and I drive into the house due to boredom.[08:15:35] <cshaiku> lol[08:15:37] <cshaiku> laters koki_haiku[08:15:49] *** koki_haiku has quit IRC[08:18:08] *** ari2-free has joined #haiku[08:18:32] <ari2-free> hi[08:19:09] <cshaiku> hi ari2-free[08:19:11] <cshaiku> how goes?[08:19:16] <ari2-free> great[08:19:23] <ari2-free> using pc upstairs[08:20:47] <ari2-free> i was reading about slab and slub allocators and of course have no idea what they are talking about but it's interesting[08:21:28] <cshaiku> what are those?[08:21:54] <ari2-free> it has to do with memory management[08:22:41] <cshaiku> It's so cool that everyone in Haiku is into so many different things.[08:22:41] <geist> yep, they are the different kernel memory allocators in linux[08:22:51] <geist> slab allocators originated from solaris years ago[08:22:58] <geist> interesting stuff[08:23:02] <ari2-free> the slub is supposed to be a bit better?[08:23:23] <geist> supposedly. it's a new linux thing, I think designed to scale a bit better on big smp machines[08:23:38] <geist> though the original solaris slab allocator was explicitly designed for that[08:24:21] <ari2-free> and haiku just got the slab allocator[08:24:35] <geist> well, slub is a linux thing[08:24:56] <geist> it's obviously a derivative of slab[08:25:19] <geist> i'll have to read about it, see what's up[08:25:39] <ari2-free> now windows uses heap right?[08:26:11] <geist> for it's kernel allocator? no idea[08:26:20] <geist> kernel allocators are typically highly dependent on the design of the kernel[08:26:25] <geist> and there is no one best way to do it[08:26:34] <cshaiku> http://lwn.net/Articles/229984/[08:30:43] *** bSON has joined #haiku[08:31:01] *** absabs has joined #haiku[08:31:48] <aroman> I actually am planning to do a work term report on kernel memory allocators...[08:32:09] <aroman> should be interesting enough not to get bored of it halfway :P[08:32:47] <aroman> :( I need to finish my SoC application[08:33:26] <aroman> have had so little time this weekend for anything :( stupid school work during coop term :([08:33:45] <ari2-free> then there's the hoard guy http://www.hoard.org/[08:34:55] <ari2-free> i remember him because he ported it to BeOS back in the day[08:35:17] <cshaiku> aroman: you busy right now?[08:35:56] <aroman> cshaiku: was going to finish up my application for soc... but other than that, not much... why?[08:36:08] <cshaiku> see private chat. :P[08:36:19] <aroman> I didn't get a private chat... :/[08:36:36] <cshaiku> its there now. :P[08:36:48] <aroman> are you registered? I hear you need to be registered to send private chats on freenode... :/[08:37:03] <aroman> did you get my "test" message?[08:37:13] <cshaiku> yes[08:37:17] <cshaiku> oh.[08:37:28] <cshaiku> you're right.[08:38:14] <aroman> hmm... either register, or... if you use google talk, i can give you my address and can talk there...[08:38:25] <cshaiku> brb, phone[08:38:29] <aroman> k[08:38:52] <cshaiku> (I'm at work, so I tend to get distracted by things like customers. D)[08:39:02] <aroman> heh[08:39:04] <cshaiku> silly customers.[08:39:07] <aroman> where do you work?[08:40:50] <cshaiku> http://tera-byte.com[08:43:50] * JonathanThompson meows in technicolor into the channel[08:44:42] <geist> technicolor yawn![08:44:51] <JonathanThompson> Yes....[08:45:31] <JonathanThompson> I was just telling my friend I helped retrieve a Mazda RX-7 from around 100 miles away about how one time I got a van rocking violently at 60 mph without being in it.[08:46:06] <JonathanThompson> Or, "Don't tailgate someone too close that's crazier than you and knows how to use the laws of physics"[08:46:09] <ari2-free> go go go Jo![08:46:45] <JonathanThompson> That was back when I lived in Terre Haute, Indiana, and I was driving towards Indy in a construction zone one Saturday morning on my way to getting the car serviced at the dealer.[08:47:24] <JonathanThompson> This guy in a white van insisted on tailgating me, and half a dozen taps or so on the brake pedal didn't give him the message clear enough not to tailgate.[08:47:56] <JonathanThompson> Well, I didn't want to speed up too much, because there was a high probability there'd be a bored cop...[08:47:59] <geist> if the van is a rockin, dont bother knockin[08:48:19] <JonathanThompson> I was driving my 93 Saturn SC2, and it did lane changes quite nicely at speed.[08:48:32] <JonathanThompson> So I set to switching about a half lane back and forth about once a second.[08:48:55] <aroman> JonathanThompson: what I usually do is use my left foot to lightly tap on the break until the tail lights go red, but the car doesn't really apply the breaks... and keep going like that for a while... he'll get confused :P[08:49:08] <JonathanThompson> Since he was tailgating so close, that caused all sorts of havoc, and pretty soon, that van was rocking from one side to the other: if he'd not put on his brakes some and was behind me another 10 seconds, he would have been on two wheels.[08:49:52] <JonathanThompson> So, he decided to stop tailgating me altogether, but his stupidity wasn't done yet![08:50:08] <JonathanThompson> He decided to pass me on the grass shoulder that slopes down away from the road...[08:50:25] <JonathanThompson> When he got alongside me, I swerved towards him once, and watched him panic.[08:50:34] <JonathanThompson> I did let him by, though, since he earned it :D[08:51:01] <JonathanThompson> He had dumb luck he didn't find some random soft spot from a mole or something, or whatever.[08:56:21] <geist> you are why we can't have good things[08:56:30] <JonathanThompson> Ok, that does it: someone ported Quake 3 to the iPhone![08:56:48] <geist> <yawn>[08:56:50] <Teknomancer> yeah read about that yday[08:57:06] <geist> that gets ported to anything with a pulse[08:59:02] <aroman> JonathanThompson: no way! :D you have the link?[08:59:35] <JonathanThompson> First article at top: http://www.ipodtouchfans.com/[09:02:14] <ozy`> guys[09:02:18] <ozy`> random question[09:02:28] <ozy`> how object-oriented is the Be API, exactly?[09:02:30] <JonathanThompson> 42![09:02:35] <ozy`> oh, okay[09:02:40] <JonathanThompson> Quite, for the GUI API.[09:02:41] * ozy` writes this down[09:02:48] <ari2-free> ugh hoard under gpl[09:03:12] <JonathanThompson> Then again, if you get technical, a lot of the old Win32 API for GDI-related stuff is object-oriented, too.[09:03:23] *** nils_1 has quit IRC[09:03:24] <JonathanThompson> It just isn't C++.[09:03:31] * ozy` shrugs[09:03:36] *** A-v-S has quit IRC[09:04:00] <ozy`> I'm just wondering how it might be interfaced with not-very-object-oriented languages[09:04:00] <JonathanThompson> Just because something may be object-oriented, doesn't mean it's a good design, though.[09:04:04] <ari2-free> i think gpl hurts bsd more than it hurts microsoft, who can always afford $$$ to come up with an alternative[09:04:05] <ozy`> well yeah[09:04:20] <JonathanThompson> Write a C-C++ wrapper and make it act like you'd see a C-based API work,[09:04:52] <JonathanThompson> Once you've created a straight C wrapper around something, pretty much any language can then use it.[09:05:02] <ozy`> hmmm indeed[09:05:56] <JonathanThompson> In Win32 programming, you tend to have handles of various types: you can think of the handle as an explicit this pointer that you don't usually see in a C++ program when you call a API function.[09:06:18] *** PulkoMandy has joined #haiku[09:06:39] <JonathanThompson> I trust you can now extrapolate how the rest of the stuff works (not much more to think about, really) and how you could implement it.[09:09:00] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[09:09:44] <Begasus> morning peeps[09:10:04] <Teknomancer> Begasus!!![09:10:15] <Begasus> Teknomancer, ! ;)[09:10:15] <surrounder> hi ladies![09:10:42] * JonathanThompson arranges to have surrounder hooked up with SRS when he least expects it[09:11:26] <surrounder> what's SRS? :O[09:11:37] <Teknomancer> Sound Retreival System i think[09:11:38] <JonathanThompson> Be careful what you ask :D[09:11:52] <Teknomancer> 3d Surround sound[09:12:04] <surrounder> lol[09:12:07] * JonathanThompson suspects Teknomancer is beating around the bush for the sake of fun[09:12:37] <Teknomancer> yeah well my audio player has this SRS + WOW setting... nice stuff, takes up way too much battery[09:12:39] <Teknomancer> so i never use it[09:13:00] <JonathanThompson> Hint: has nothing to do with sound on sound systems ;)[09:13:13] <Teknomancer> its a decoder right?[09:13:13] * JonathanThompson calls surrounder a lady[09:13:41] <JonathanThompson> Not in the situation I'm using those letters as an acronym for :D[09:14:13] <Teknomancer> ah, ok.. not surprising[09:14:50] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[09:16:07] <JonathanThompson> I think surrounder wouldn't care for the SRS ;)[09:32:35] *** bSON has quit IRC[09:49:33] *** Begasus is now known as Begasus_bbl[09:51:24] *** Teknomancer has quit IRC[09:54:37] *** DHowett has joined #haiku[09:54:40] <cshaiku> heyas jt[09:58:31] *** skoe has quit IRC[10:00:16] *** Teknomancer has joined #haiku[10:02:04] <aroman> Good night everyone![10:04:06] *** ari2-free has quit IRC[10:10:04] *** Euver has joined #haiku[10:26:00] *** goosemo__ has joined #haiku[10:41:58] *** goosemo has quit IRC[10:42:19] *** rdmr has joined #haiku[10:44:36] *** tic_ has joined #haiku[10:51:14] *** tic has quit IRC[10:56:36] *** aroman has quit IRC[11:04:08] *** andybe has joined #haiku[11:04:28] <andybe> hello guys[11:07:57] *** absabs has quit IRC[11:13:45] <emitrax> hi andybe[11:14:00] <andybe> hello emitrax[11:16:45] <cshaiku> heyas andybe, emitrax[11:16:59] <andybe> oh nice to see you cshaiku[11:17:10] <cshaiku> likewise, nice to see you[11:17:51] <cshaiku> whats' new?[11:17:59] *** dchis has joined #haiku[11:19:59] <CIA-50> stippi * r24851 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/ (8 files in 5 dirs):[11:19:59] <CIA-50> Applied patch by Duane R. Bailey:[11:19:59] <CIA-50> * Replaced occurances of "..." by B_UTF8_ELLIPSIS in the apps folder.[11:25:10] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[11:25:39] <Lelldorin1> hi all[11:25:45] <cshaiku> heyas![11:26:19] <DHowett> hi! :P[11:33:04] <Lelldorin1> is there a hiau image with installed gcc?[11:33:19] <cshaiku> I think mmadia has one[11:34:53] <Lelldorin1> ok and can i get it ;-)[11:35:02] <Lelldorin1> is there a downloed[11:35:55] <cshaiku> You'll have to email him, or ask him on here next time he's in IRC[11:36:00] <cshaiku> I don't know his email offhand[11:36:05] <Lelldorin1> ok thanx[11:50:44] *** rsanches has joined #haiku[11:56:25] *** DHowett has left #haiku[11:56:27] *** DHowett has joined #haiku[11:57:14] <DHowett> Lelldorin1: http://dhowett.rh.rit.edu/~dustin/haiku all optional packages, semi-non-completely-recent revision, two formats for your downloading pleasure[11:57:19] <DHowett> They expand to 1gb images[11:57:34] <DHowett> only download one of course. I'm at college and my bandwidth's eww[11:57:37] <DHowett> night :)[11:58:08] <andybe> DHowett: night...[11:58:12] <Thom_Holwerda> latest comic up[11:58:13] <Thom_Holwerda> http://www.osnews.com/comics[11:58:16] *** Thom_Holwerda has quit IRC[11:58:32] *** Thom_Holwerda has joined #haiku[11:58:40] *** DHowett has left #haiku[11:58:59] <Lelldorin1> Thom_Holwerda: i dont understand the joke ^^[11:59:12] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[11:59:27] *** Begasus_bbl is now known as Begasus[11:59:54] <Thom_Holwerda> Lelldorin1: http://twitter.com/[11:59:59] *** mmadia has quit IRC[12:00:01] <ozy`> Lelldorin1: ever used twitter?[12:00:18] <ozy`> it's basically IRC over rails[12:00:44] <Lelldorin1> ozy`: no i did not[12:01:02] <Thom_Holwerda> Lelldorin1: good boy, keep it that way[12:01:27] <Lelldorin1> ^^[12:01:30] <ozy`> http://twitter.com/Othar <== the canonical non-sucky twitter account[12:04:08] *** MrSunshine__ has quit IRC[12:04:23] <ari-free> Eating soup? Research shows that moms want to know.[12:06:09] *** Euver has quit IRC[12:06:26] *** Euver has joined #haiku[12:09:08] <ozy`> I kind of miss the days when the internet was filled with totally esoteric OS projects[12:10:12] <ari-free> like haiku, syllable, skyos, etc?[12:10:15] <ari-free> :)[12:11:03] <ozy`> naw, haiku is about 20 yards on the "cool and pragmatic" side of vanilla... syllable and skyos strike me as kind of bland[12:11:28] *** waveshaper has joined #haiku[12:11:41] <ozy`> I'm talking about really off-the-wall stuff[12:11:50] *** rdmr has quit IRC[12:11:55] <ari-free> like tunes[12:11:58] <ari-free> plan9[12:12:05] <ari-free> ah that kind of stuff[12:12:13] <ozy`> <LainOS> We will fundamentally redefine the entire history of computer usability. We will start by writing a window manager with transparent menus[12:12:16] <ozy`> exactly[12:12:35] <ari-free> lcars[12:13:06] <ari-free> things that don't make sense but we'll do it because we can OS[12:13:54] <ozy`> yeah[12:14:16] <ozy`> I didn't know about lcars but I should have figured someone would do that[12:14:44] <ari-free> i don't think that's a real OS but i'm sure there are 5 million E themes[12:15:53] <ozy`> http://lcarsos.net/ <== yeah um[12:17:03] <ozy`> actually there doesn't seem to be any link from there to any actual code[12:17:31] <ari-free> yeah thats what i was wondering[12:17:36] <ari-free> what a weird site[12:19:30] <ozy`> that's actually typical of what I'm talking about[12:19:57] <ozy`> except a few years ago there were a couple sites that were basically directories of links to those[12:20:21] <ozy`> (before cybersquatting got popular and everybody and his dog had a link farm)[12:20:42] <ari-free> well we have osnews now[12:21:13] <ozy`> exactly[12:21:29] <ozy`> it sort of filters out the total nutjobss[12:21:35] <ari-free> it bubbles up actual interest[12:21:39] <ozy`> also, people actually use linux...[12:21:44] <ozy`> well but see[12:21:58] <ozy`> the crazies had interest, too[12:22:00] <ari-free> gobolinux?[12:22:07] <ozy`> people would show up on their sites and they'd be totally serious[12:22:29] <ari-free> morphos[12:22:38] <ari-free> is that crazy enough[12:23:20] <ozy`> no, morphos is sad[12:24:13] <ozy`> I guess I really just mean lainos[12:25:03] <ari-free> This site is dedicated to the LainOS Project. A project that seeks to challenge the very foundations of the human interface at every level. We seek to usher in the next generation of UNIX here[12:25:12] <ozy`> 'cause they would have meetings on IRC and put marketdroid-speak on their website, and then people would cheer them on in the forums and talk about the ramifications of moving the X server into the BSD kernel and things like that[12:25:20] <ari-free> i'm tired of unix!!!!!![12:25:30] <ozy`> and all they ever had was a WM and it didn't work[12:26:38] <ari-free> haiku, skyos, syl are interesting precisely because they are not another unix[12:26:50] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[12:26:52] <ozy`> and then there were the anti-microsoft forums where people would be like "yeah I use copland" and someone would ask for screenshots and nobody would post for a month and then the OP would say something like "I don't own an iSub" and disappear forever[12:27:11] <ozy`> I know[12:27:26] <ozy`> although the whole POSIX compatibility thing is a little disappointing[12:27:39] <ozy`> necessary in most cases but it's like... ah well[12:28:25] <ari-free> every OS has to have posix so that we can have wonderful easy to use posix apps like gtw and zeb[12:30:16] <ari-free> i guess we need ports to get somewhere[12:30:54] <ozy`> yeah[12:31:10] <ari-free> doesn't mean i have to like them :)[12:31:30] <ozy`> I would like to see lisp machines make a comeback actually[12:31:39] <ozy`> insane as that may be[12:32:15] <ari-free> well syllable is into rebol so that's a start[12:32:17] <CIA-50> axeld * r24852 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/file_systems/bfs/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)[12:32:17] <CIA-50> * Made super block log handling endian-safe.[12:32:17] <CIA-50> * Made all debugging functions endian-safe.[12:32:17] <CIA-50> * Added tracing for log entries.[12:32:17] <CIA-50> * Added new KDL command "bfs_journal" to dump all pending log entries.[12:32:18] <CIA-50> * When BFS_DEBUGGER_COMMANDS is defined, the LogEntry class will also track[12:32:20] <CIA-50> the transaction ID it belonged to.[12:32:34] <ozy`> so I hear[12:32:50] <ozy`> but rebol is not distilled madness[12:34:02] <ozy`> it reminds me a little of cobol (probably the name...) and a little of HTML[12:34:21] <ari-free> REBOL stands for Relative Expression Based Object Language.[12:34:23] <ari-free> It uses "relative expressions" (context dependent dialects) to create a powerful new dimension similar to that found in natural human languages.[12:34:39] *** bombuzal has joined #haiku[12:36:32] <ari-free> applescript is nice. why can't we have something like that[12:36:40] <ari-free> why this $%# bash[12:38:34] <ozy`> hmmmmmm :)[12:38:48] <ozy`> the applescript language is a joke but the API is cool[12:39:05] <CIA-50> axeld * r24853 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/cache/block_cache.cpp: (log message trimmed)[12:39:05] <CIA-50> * notify_transaction_listeners() would always remove all listeners when it[12:39:05] <CIA-50> was asked to. Unfortunately, it also removed the TRANSACTION_WRITTEN[12:39:05] <CIA-50> listeners (that were added before notifying other listeners), so that BFS[12:39:05] <CIA-50> could never free up space in the log. Now, it will only remove the listeners[12:39:07] <CIA-50> it may remove. This fixes bug #2024.[12:39:10] <CIA-50> * Rearranged functions a bit, moved notification/listener related private[12:39:26] <ozy`> would python be acceptable, d'you think?[12:40:23] *** Euver has quit IRC[12:40:44] <ari-free> yeah...at least you get a lot of help from the web[12:41:59] <ari-free> in other words, if you know python a lot of other people use it too[12:42:19] <ozy`> I'm not big on python but I hear that would be the best starting point right now[12:42:36] *** absabs has joined #haiku[12:42:48] <ozy`> on haiku at least[12:43:05] <ari-free> so there's a skill that's nice to have on a resume[12:44:14] <ari-free> yeah I'd make python the standard scripting language so that there would be lots of examples to learn from[12:44:30] <cshaiku> ick[12:44:34] * cshaiku prefers php[12:44:42] <cshaiku> but, meh.. I hear python is popular. :P[12:44:46] <ari-free> to script haiku apps?[12:44:53] <cshaiku> yea yea, I know I know[12:45:12] <ari-free> because i sure don't want to use bash[12:45:15] <ozy`> cshaiku: well I prefer ruby and lisp... but...[12:45:30] *** Euver has joined #haiku[12:45:33] <ozy`> and hell, maybe not just to script haiku apps, but to write them in the first place, too[12:45:54] <CIA-50> stippi * r24854 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/network/ (3 files):[12:45:54] <CIA-50> * Use the new layout features to build the UI, prevents problems with[12:45:54] <CIA-50> BMenuField being cut off. Simplifies the code a lot.[12:45:54] <CIA-50> * Move message constants declaration into View, since they are private.[12:45:54] <CIA-50> * Cleanup of EthernetSettingsView.h.[12:45:55] <cshaiku> but..but.. what?[12:46:01] <cshaiku> python, to write apps!?[12:46:07] * cshaiku explodes[12:46:14] <cshaiku> parse error[12:46:21] <ozy`> cshaiku: OS X is going this way with ruby already[12:46:28] <ozy`> (AND python)[12:46:40] <ozy`> (but mainly ruby)[12:46:49] * cshaiku curls into a fetal position[12:46:56] <cshaiku> why god? why?[12:47:20] <ozy`> I don't see what the problem is[12:47:23] <cshaiku> hehehe[12:47:28] <cshaiku> I'm just poking fun[12:47:31] <ozy`> :p[12:47:44] <cshaiku> maybe I should shut up and go learn python, actually[12:48:19] <cshaiku> I guess my problem is the whole whitespace structure or whatever it is called?[12:48:26] <cshaiku> indentation sytax?[12:48:28] <cshaiku> syntax[12:48:40] <Teknomancer> i like the indentation forcing syntax actually[12:48:59] <Teknomancer> seen far too many silly indentation styles in C/C++ code[12:49:12] <Teknomancer> nobody seems to agree on one universal thing for it... meh[12:49:15] <cshaiku> hehe[12:49:17] <cshaiku> tis true[12:49:34] *** HeTo has joined #haiku[12:50:00] <ozy`> yeah, C/C++ allows the GNU style, which I'm pretty sure violates the Geneva convention[12:50:11] <ozy`> in at least three orifices, no less[12:50:21] <cshaiku> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indent_style[12:50:46] <Teknomancer> i hate braces on the same line... yeah I said it.[12:53:07] <cshaiku> I agree with that[12:53:11] <cshaiku> wait.[12:53:15] <cshaiku> I meant, on their OWN line[12:53:26] <cshaiku> and yeah, GNU style sucks donkey balls[12:53:34] <cshaiku> I am a K&R stylist[12:53:39] *** _Lucretia_ has quit IRC[12:53:45] <ari-free> what style does haiku follow[12:54:14] <cshaiku> K&R I believe[12:54:16] <Teknomancer> actually i'm fine with most styles, i can tolerate them as long as their consistent[12:54:21] <cshaiku> they're*[12:54:34] * cshaiku ducks :P[12:54:37] *** _Lucretia_ has joined #haiku[12:54:42] <Teknomancer> but given a choice i wouldn't use K&R[12:55:37] <cshaiku> ok hotshot, pico, nano, vi, or other?[12:56:13] <Teknomancer> allman style I believe it's called[12:56:27] <cshaiku> what editor do you use?[12:56:36] <cshaiku> "ok hotshot, pico, nano, vi, or other?" <-- editor question[12:57:06] <CIA-50> axeld * r24855 /haiku/trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs):[12:57:06] <CIA-50> * Added pthread_setconcurrency(), and pthread_getconcurrency() functions.[12:57:06] <CIA-50> * Since we use a 1:1 mapping, they don't do anything besides remembering the[12:57:06] <CIA-50> level set, though.[12:57:09] <absabs> haiku's style is somewhat like linux kernel souce[12:57:29] <Teknomancer> mostly gedit, when i'm forced to use a command-line (for config files, safemode booting etc) i use nano, if i don't have nano , i use Vi.[12:57:55] <Teknomancer> i'm not a "i refuse to use GUI" guy .. i use it if i find it convenient...[12:58:03] <absabs> I preferred VIM[12:58:14] <absabs> vim+cscope+ctags[12:58:31] <Teknomancer> vim is better than vi for sure ;) i'd use it if it were there[12:58:32] <ari-free> visual studio anyone[12:58:43] <Teknomancer> ari-free: sorry, I don't use winblows[12:58:45] * cshaiku throws a compiler at ari-free[12:58:56] <cshaiku> get it? throw a compiler? lolol.. I kill me[12:59:10] <cshaiku> vim is nicer than vi, for sure.[12:59:20] <cshaiku> I use nano all the time though, I'm so used to it[12:59:24] <ari-free> :)[12:59:25] <Teknomancer> if he caught it, i'd be an exception :P[12:59:38] <cshaiku> unfortunately, some servers here only have vi, so I'm forced to muddle through[12:59:41] <cshaiku> nice, tek[12:59:54] <Teknomancer> nano is like a gui editor in CLI :P[13:01:10] <cshaiku> no, it has well defined keyboard shortcuts[13:01:11] <cshaiku> :)[13:02:17] <ozy`> I like vim a lot more than I expected, now that I know it[13:02:54] <cshaiku> mm. eating spaghetti, my lunch[13:03:05] <cshaiku> this whole food concept is exciting[13:03:05] *** xendor has joined #haiku[13:03:08] <ari-free> now?[13:03:28] <Teknomancer> damn you're making me hungry[13:03:29] <Teknomancer> stop[13:03:30] <ari-free> oh wait not everyone lives in NY[13:03:32] <ari-free> heheh[13:03:56] <ari-free> it's 7 AM here and the thought of eating that now would make me hurl :)[13:05:10] <cshaiku> I made the sauce from scratch last night, reduced 3 tomatos down to a nice paste, chopped onions, some garlic, spices, simmered the meat for a good 30minutes in that, and then finally added some pesto and various veggies to it[13:05:42] <ari-free> wow you're a real cook[13:06:11] <cshaiku> then I made some garlic spread for the bread: garlic, butter, a touch of salt, and a touch of olive oil[13:06:40] <cshaiku> yeah, I love food[13:06:54] <xendor> maybe papadayan[13:06:55] <cshaiku> I got into baking 2 years ago, I'd make biscuits and bring them to work, my co-workers love me[13:07:05] <cshaiku> worked at a call centre for 1.5 years[13:07:26] <xendor> anyway the "versus" is here[13:07:29] <xendor> http://www.tod-os.com/foros/index.php?action=vthread&forum=24&topic=130[13:07:39] <ari-free> I wish i could bake. i like to cook. baking means I have to follow a recipe exactly[13:08:10] <ari-free> cooking means always tasting and changing the recipe[13:08:45] <cshaiku> baking means bringing something into existance from raw components. It's quite exhilirating to see your own cake rise[13:09:15] <ari-free> the latest idea i want to try is adding baking powder to chicken to make it really crispy[13:09:16] *** xendor has left #haiku[13:09:49] <cshaiku> I made this amazing (and I am not tooting my own horn, it was stupendous) strawberry shortcake one time, for a friend's birthday... covered in vanilla icing, with fresh strawberries in sauce in the middle (it was a pound cake)[13:09:53] <cshaiku> awesome[13:10:10] <ari-free> a fresh pound cake?[13:10:33] <cshaiku> I brought it into work, its 12" in diameter, and people stopped working[13:10:41] <cshaiku> well, a round poundcake pan[13:10:42] <ari-free> i can imagine[13:10:56] <ari-free> all that butter[13:10:58] <ari-free> is good[13:11:16] <cshaiku> yeah, it was great[13:11:29] <ari-free> "butter makes it better" as paula dean would say :)[13:11:51] <cshaiku> wow, I even remember who she is. I wonder what happened to her[13:12:09] <ari-free> she's still cackling :)[13:13:09] <ari-free> http://www.pauladeen.com/[13:14:00] *** xendor has joined #haiku[13:14:30] <ari-free> I get cook's illustrated magazine[13:14:58] <ari-free> it's great[13:26:29] <stpere> morning[13:29:18] *** goosemo__ is now known as goosemo[13:37:44] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[13:44:50] <ozy`> before I go and make a fool of myself, what software on haiku is NOT written in either C or C++?[13:45:53] *** nibble has joined #haiku[13:47:41] *** burfi has joined #haiku[13:58:59] <ozy`> http://www.haikuware.com/development/language/ <== hmmmmmm[14:04:50] *** Wiss has joined #haiku[14:09:29] <stpere> BeScript.. interesting :)[14:10:01] <ozy`> yeah[14:10:19] <ozy`> wonder if it's open source[14:10:26] <ozy`> can't be bothered to find out right now[14:10:38] <stpere> Freeware[14:10:52] <ozy`> UNACCEPTABLE[14:11:02] <stpere> that what the Licence field tells[14:11:10] <stpere> that's*[14:11:12] <ozy`> gotcha[14:11:16] <ozy`> I will pore over these later[14:11:21] <stpere> :)[14:14:22] *** Euver has quit IRC[14:14:45] *** DeadYak has joined #haiku[14:14:54] *** xendor has quit IRC[14:15:17] <CIA-50> axeld * r24856 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/file_systems/bfs/Journal.cpp:[14:15:17] <CIA-50> * BFS now panics if cache_sync_transaction() didn't free the space needed,[14:15:17] <CIA-50> instead of writing over the old log entries.[14:21:19] * stpere is going to write a InputFilter to only enable CapsLock if shift is pressed at the same time[14:21:36] <stpere> as I saw requested on the forum[14:23:27] *** TuneTracker has joined #Haiku[14:24:02] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[14:25:11] <cshaiku> wow man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlGBMAgDGUU[14:25:14] <cshaiku> that is amazing[14:29:57] *** TuneTracker has quit IRC[14:30:27] <waveshaper> hehe[14:30:48] <waveshaper> well. all it takes is abit of creativity[14:31:04] <waveshaper> Im amazed how little of that exists in todays music :)[14:31:27] <cshaiku> indeed[14:32:55] <waveshaper> ofcourse, he knows how to play :p[14:33:11] <waveshaper> but I mean, sound fx in general.[14:33:21] <waveshaper> connecting a piano to a distortion box is cool aswell[14:35:38] <cshaiku> I miss syn.terra[14:36:04] <cshaiku> he can really play the piano/keyboard[14:38:03] <waveshaper> nice yes. checking his page (I think) http://www.aevum.net/[14:40:40] <waveshaper> damn.. by the time Visual Studio has finished started, Ive forgotten what I was suppose to do[14:51:55] <clsk> hm is it still needed to revert back to a previous revision of buildtools to be able to compile on linux?[14:52:24] <DeadYak> clsk: nope[14:52:35] <DeadYak> clsk: you'll just need to rebuild your cross tools[14:52:40] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[14:53:01] <DeadYak> clsk: at least the current rev of 'em works fine on Ubuntu for me[14:53:25] <absabs> Is korli online?[14:53:46] <DeadYak> not currently[14:53:50] <absabs> oh, seems not[14:53:56] <DeadYak> tried emailing him? :)[14:54:07] <absabs> I have emailed him[14:54:39] <absabs> with the patch of sync the firewire stack to FreeBSD current[14:55:01] <absabs> It seems that the patch did not svn check in[14:55:13] <absabs> at the moment[14:55:52] <DeadYak> yeah, haven't seen him check it in yet, last thing I saw him do offhand was updating ACPI[14:56:40] <absabs> aha[14:56:48] <absabs> that's a few days ago[14:58:25] <absabs> Today is gsoc deadline?[15:01:16] <DeadYak> yes[15:02:49] *** stippi has joined #haiku[15:02:49] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o stippi[15:03:01] <DeadYak> hi stippi[15:03:15] <stippi> hi[15:03:21] <stippi> just checking the behavior in ZETA[15:03:24] <DeadYak> ah[15:03:29] <DeadYak> with respect to my email?[15:03:38] <stippi> it doesn't flicker at all there, but ZETA does have double buffering[15:03:44] <DeadYak> I don't remember noticing that behavior in Zeta but that could've also been the difference in drawing speed[15:03:44] <DeadYak> or that[15:03:52] <absabs> hello stippi[15:03:55] <DeadYak> BListView in Dano/Zeta did use SetDoubleBuffering() iirc[15:04:08] <stippi> don't know if it uses it for this, or if it blits the view to the new pos[15:04:10] <stippi> hi absabs[15:04:28] <DeadYak> the view doesn't move though[15:04:31] <DeadYak> that's why I'm confused[15:04:39] <DeadYak> all that changes size is the base agent view and the textview[15:08:19] *** Stargater has joined #haiku[15:08:22] <Stargater> hi[15:08:33] *** Styrbjorn has quit IRC[15:08:53] *** Styrbjorn has joined #haiku[15:09:22] <absabs> hi stargater[15:09:37] <Stargater> hi absabs[15:10:15] <stpere> hi stippi[15:10:40] <stippi> hi stpere[15:10:43] <Begasus> hi[15:10:50] <stippi> hi *[15:10:55] <stpere> thx for improving my "bugfix" in network preferences[15:11:07] <stippi> stpere: no problem[15:11:12] <absabs> hi stpere[15:11:19] <stippi> I think we should start using the layout stuff much more[15:11:23] <stpere> yes[15:11:25] <stippi> life is so much simpler then[15:11:26] <absabs> are you applying gsoc too[15:11:28] <Stargater> hi stippi ans stpere[15:11:36] <stpere> absabs: no, I'm not :([15:11:43] <stpere> not a student anymore[15:11:47] <stippi> I guess you took a close look at that change?[15:11:59] <stpere> not yet, I'm not on my dev environment right now[15:12:16] <stpere> will take a look this evening[15:12:47] <stpere> I was wondering why Bounds() was returning an area/size smaller than the displayed one tho[15:13:01] <stpere> that was why I had to put a +15 after the Bounds().Width() call[15:13:09] <stpere> which didn't work on every font size[15:13:20] <stippi> stpere: This happens because some controls adjust their size when they are attached to the window[15:13:26] <stpere> oh[15:13:27] <stpere> I see[15:13:28] <stippi> which I personally don't like very much[15:13:33] <stpere> the follow stuff?[15:13:37] <stippi> no[15:13:45] <stippi> I don't really know the reason[15:13:46] *** emitrax has quit IRC[15:13:48] <stpere> ok[15:13:53] <stpere> well, that's what confused me :)[15:13:57] <DeadYak> to some degree that's hard to avoid though, there's certain information you can't get valid access to until you're attached :)[15:13:58] <stippi> should look at each control individually and avoid that[15:14:13] <stippi> DeadYak: which one?[15:14:26] <DeadYak> stippi: do controls adapt to the background color of their parent by default?[15:14:57] <stippi> yes, that would be an example, but it should not affect size[15:15:23] <DeadYak> true, though if you want to pick up the parent's font for instance, you need to wait until attach[15:15:29] <DeadYak> I'm not sure if our controls do that though[15:15:55] <stpere> attach is AddChild(...) right?[15:16:04] <DeadYak> yes.[15:16:23] <DeadYak> after you AddChild() a view, its AttachedToWindow() is called[15:16:42] <stpere> ah ok[15:19:02] <stippi> not yet[15:19:16] <stippi> take the network preflet for example[15:19:24] <stippi> it creates a view in it's Window constructor[15:19:43] <stippi> then the view itself in its contructor creates more view and AddChild()s them[15:19:45] <stippi> BUT[15:19:54] <stippi> AttachedToWindow for those will not be called yet[15:20:10] <stippi> only back in the window constructor, when the window uses AddChild() on the parent view[15:20:27] <stippi> then it will trigger the AttachedToWindow() hooks for all views in the hierarchy[15:20:29] <DeadYak> AllAttached() is called after all the children of a view have had AttachedToWindow called, yes?[15:20:31] <stippi> which is exaclty the problem[15:20:36] <stippi> yes[15:20:48] <DeadYak> thought so but wanted to make sure I remembered right before saying anything :)[15:21:20] <stippi> AttachedToWindow works downward the hiearchie, while AllAttached() works the other direction[15:21:21] <cshaiku> What are the benefits of it being this way?[15:21:45] <stippi> it is just a hook you might need to implement, because of messaging[15:21:57] <stippi> A BView is a BHandler and can receive BMessages[15:21:58] <stippi> BUT[15:22:10] <stippi> as long as it is not attached to a BLooper, it cannot[15:22:10] *** Barrett666 has joined #haiku[15:22:21] <stippi> some views need to setup messaging paths[15:22:36] <cshaiku> for displaying information in the ui on a need basis?[15:22:39] <stippi> and they are can only get a valid BMessenger of themselves when they are attached[15:22:43] <DeadYak> that was another one I forgot about, have to wait until AttachedToWindow() to be able to set up message targets :)[15:22:48] <DeadYak> though that won't resize either[15:23:05] <DeadYak> cshaiku: it's more that there's a lot of info you can't get meaningfully until you're attached to a looper/window[15:23:22] <stippi> I think we should just fix BMenuField in this regard, I think it is the only view misbehaving like taht[15:23:23] <DeadYak> hence there's a hook that's called once that takes place so you can get that info and make any adjustments needed[15:23:28] <DeadYak> stippi: ah[15:23:56] <cshaiku> I remember programming some minor stuff years ago, and it seemed a bit convoluted at the time, despite how easy it was meant to be[15:24:01] <DeadYak> reminds me, I need to look at why some of Vision's prefs don't quite size themselves right on Haiku...particularly in regards to BTextControls[15:25:28] <Stargater> void[15:25:29] <Stargater> MyWindow::MessageReceived(BMessage* message)[15:25:30] <Stargater> {[15:25:30] <Stargater> MyView->MessageReceived(message);[15:25:31] <Stargater> }[15:25:34] <Stargater> :-)[15:25:47] <Teknomancer> you never should call MessageReceived yourself .. you can but you shouldn't have to :P[15:26:02] <Teknomancer> use PostMessage() ;)[15:26:38] <stippi> cshaiku: Yes[15:26:57] <stippi> cshaiku: But our new Layout management feature is supposed to fix that.[15:27:06] <cshaiku> yeaaaaa.[15:27:16] <stippi> it is really niceley designed[15:27:18] * cshaiku Jumps (hey, Van Halen is playing it in fact)[15:27:23] <Teknomancer> i need to see how flexible the layout management feature is :)[15:27:23] *** Tonik has joined #haiku[15:27:31] <stippi> if you like how Java implements it and Qt, you should like our version.[15:27:33] <cshaiku> stippi: how new is it?[15:27:40] <Teknomancer> is it something like Java's grid?[15:27:42] <stippi> cshaiku: 2006[15:27:47] <cshaiku> fairly new then...[15:27:50] <stippi> Teknomancer: That too[15:27:54] <Teknomancer> Applet's rudimentary Card/Grid layouts were awful[15:27:55] <cshaiku> any documents/guides around the net?[15:28:09] <stippi> cshaiku: src/tests/kits/interface/layout[15:28:13] <Teknomancer> dunno about Qt[15:28:44] <Teknomancer> but for backward compatibility the layout manager must be optional I presume[15:28:56] <DeadYak> it's entirely optional, yes[15:29:14] <stippi> Teknomancer: It is integrated, you can even have hybrid code[15:29:32] <stippi> see for example Icon-O-Matic, which is kind of hybrid[15:29:42] <Teknomancer> nice...[15:29:55] <Stargater> but Ryan Leavengood will write a doc over layout in haiku![15:30:00] <Teknomancer> but I would have thought this was a post R1 kind of thing..[15:30:15] <DeadYak> Teknomancer: that's why it's marked as experimental :)[15:30:20] <stippi> yes, ryan said so, and I think he has something, but it probably needs polishing[15:30:32] <Stargater> :-)[15:31:07] <Teknomancer> oh[15:35:19] *** Wiss has quit IRC[15:36:03] <cshaiku> thx stippi, I shot ryan a quick email too regarding it[15:36:22] <cshaiku> good to know that some of the kludginess is going away eventually[15:36:53] <stippi> yes, it was getting really annoying. Especially for large apps, but even small apps took way too long to write because of it[15:36:58] <cshaiku> BeOS conceptually is awesome. Some of the UI stuff though, very poor[15:37:09] <stippi> not anymore... :-)[15:37:13] *** waveshaper has quit IRC[15:37:15] <cshaiku> yeah, I understand. :P[15:37:28] <DeadYak> my main gripe with the interface kit at this point is BMenu and friends[15:37:31] <DeadYak> horribly designed :/[15:37:35] <cshaiku> we have this amazing opportunity to correct some thoughtlessness? not sure its the most apt word[15:38:18] <cshaiku> I cannot believe its been 10 friggin years (coming soon, article pending too) since I first heard and got into BeOS[15:38:42] <DeadYak> 8 here[15:38:44] <cshaiku> June 2nd, 1998, I browse be.com just for kicks[15:39:58] <stpere> :)[15:40:09] <stpere> I installed Be in 2001, IIRC[15:40:17] <stpere> while at college[15:40:38] <Teknomancer> 8 years for me too[15:40:50] <stippi> 1997 IIRC[15:41:01] <stippi> but installed when R3 came out[15:41:28] <Teknomancer> I started with R5 PE.. wrote my first crappy C app on it[15:41:54] <stpere> hehe[15:41:57] <DeadYak> started with R5 PE here as well, mostly because previous revs were missing some drivers or other for my hardware[15:42:04] <stpere> first crappy apps where on Dos here ;-)[15:42:13] <DeadYak> first crappy apps on c64 for me :)[15:42:13] <stpere> were*[15:42:16] <DeadYak> and I mean crappy[15:42:18] <stpere> oh cool[15:42:27] <PulkoMandy> mine was on amstrad CPC :>[15:42:29] <stpere> never touched a c64 :)[15:42:30] <Schmedly3D> I had seen it before R4, but that was the first rev I installed[15:42:33] <cshaiku> hey, anyone have sndlvl kicking around in their archives?[15:42:37] *** clsk has quit IRC[15:42:44] <PulkoMandy> (but well, just copying basic lines from a book i had)[15:42:44] <Schmedly3D> I think I still have my R4 box even[15:42:44] * cshaiku got 2 for the price of one with R3.1[15:43:11] <cshaiku> and a white Be t-shirt! :)[15:43:18] <cshaiku> which I still have somewhere... hrm[15:43:28] <Teknomancer> stpere: mine was on Logo[15:43:29] <Schmedly3D> Yeah! I've got a white and a black one[15:43:33] <Teknomancer> fd 50, rt 90[15:43:45] <PulkoMandy> :p[15:43:51] <cshaiku> I also have a "BeOS Master" black golf shirt[15:43:56] <Teknomancer> then basic, qbasic, pascal, turbo C,.. oh the pain of using "void main" for years[15:44:34] <DeadYak> I had one of those but lost it in a move :/[15:44:45] <DeadYak> I still have one of the black Be shirts though[15:44:58] <stpere> my teacher trying to tell that in a multi file .cpp project, every file have its own main()...[15:45:03] <absabs> I installed BE\haiku last year, I'm a newbie:p[15:45:40] <Teknomancer> stpere: seriously?[15:45:48] <stpere> well, yeah :-\[15:45:50] <DeadYak> ouch[15:45:51] <stippi> stpere: wow[15:46:07] <stippi> absabs: We love newbies[15:46:10] <absabs> haha, "void main" is brought by visual stdio[15:46:11] <stpere> had to demonstrate him why it couldn't work :)[15:46:13] <absabs> :)[15:46:18] <stippi> absabs: I think it would suck if everyone would be an old timer[15:46:19] <cshaiku> wanna see me in that black golf shirt?[15:46:20] <cshaiku> http://haikunews.org/images/staff/chris-vman.jpg[15:46:22] <Teknomancer> absabs: originally in Borland/Turbo C in DOS[15:46:29] *** dchis has quit IRC[15:46:36] <cshaiku> Simon's on the left[15:46:55] <stippi> oh chris, it's you![15:46:55] <cshaiku> dang, that was 6 years ago![15:46:58] <cshaiku> wth.[15:47:02] <absabs> Teknomancer, aha, yep[15:47:05] <cshaiku> stippi: who did you think it was?[15:47:10] <absabs> Turbo C[15:47:11] <stippi> no idea[15:47:17] <stippi> I didn't think anything[15:47:20] <cshaiku> lol[15:47:25] <cshaiku> <-- Technix[15:47:30] <PulkoMandy> i installed beos in 2004 or around there, if i remember well[15:47:32] <stippi> do you still do something with Haikunews? Oh it redirecty, right?[15:47:38] <cshaiku> no, its up. :P[15:47:46] <absabs> I learn c language on Turbo C[15:47:47] <stippi> cshaiku: I would have recognized Technix, that's for sure! :-)[15:47:50] <cshaiku> hehe[15:47:53] *** cshaiku is now known as Technix[15:47:58] <Technix> fine, I'll go back to this nick[15:48:02] *** HaikuwareDev has joined #Haiku[15:48:02] <Technix> on this channel, anyhow[15:48:12] <stpere> cshaiku: technically it's down :)[15:48:17] <stpere> there is a parsing error ;-)[15:48:24] <stpere> index.php, line 56[15:48:29] <stpere> unexpected )[15:48:44] <Technix> wow, had to re-identify to freenode[15:48:49] <Technix> ok, better?[15:49:14] <Technix> eek...[15:49:33] <absabs> time to go home[15:49:36] <DeadYak> : /home/hikunews?[15:49:37] <absabs> bbl[15:49:39] *** karlvd has joined #Haiku[15:49:47] <absabs> deadyak, ah[15:49:49] <Technix> ah, there we go.[15:49:50] <absabs> nope[15:49:57] <absabs> Left my lab[15:50:08] <Technix> I had an extra ), I was messing with it, and didn't check my changes last time. (got distracted at work, see)[15:50:13] <absabs> go to my dorm[15:50:16] <Teknomancer> Technix: who;s the other guy with you?[15:50:17] <absabs> bbl[15:50:21] <Technix> hikunews is 8 characters, due to limit of my webhost[15:50:24] <Technix> that's Simon[15:50:25] *** absabs has quit IRC[15:50:33] <Technix> vman[15:50:40] <DeadYak> Technix: oh[15:50:43] <Teknomancer> oh you're the one on the right then?[15:50:46] <Technix> yup[15:50:59] <Teknomancer> ah sorry, forgot you have 2 m's :)[15:51:02] <Technix> hehe[15:51:10] <Technix> just like the candy![15:52:36] *** HaikuwareDev has quit IRC[15:52:36] *** karlvd has quit IRC[15:52:45] *** HaikuwareDev has joined #Haiku[15:52:51] *** HaikuwareDev has quit IRC[15:53:08] *** HaikuwareDev has joined #Haiku[15:53:31] *** HaikuwareDev has quit IRC[15:56:17] <Begasus> karlvd is playing around it seems ;)[15:56:20] <Begasus> hi Technix ;)[15:56:34] <Technix> goede morgen[15:56:43] <Begasus> goede namiddag ;)[15:56:50] <Technix> ja, dat ook[15:57:02] <Technix> ik heeft vermisst[15:57:08] <Begasus> kan je nog wat nederlands praten daar?[15:57:23] <Technix> natuurlijk, maar, het langtijde met some dingus[15:57:46] <Technix> mijn grammatiek niet beste is[15:58:46] <Begasus> neen ... had ik al door ;)[15:59:44] <Technix> een momentje, AUB, ik heb een nog telefoon[16:02:31] <Technix> ik heb meer stomtje mensen praten met mij op de telefoon.. ararrrrg[16:02:38] *** mib_8hluctlj has joined #haiku[16:02:55] <Technix> ok, ik ben terug, Begasus .. hoe bent je?[16:03:10] <Begasus> met mij gaat het goed Technix[16:03:24] <Technix> wereken niet?[16:03:30] <Begasus> onlangs moeten stoppen op mijn vorig werk maar ondertussen terug bezig elders[16:03:37] <Begasus> vrij vandaag ;)[16:03:40] <Technix> ah.. jammer[16:03:45] <Technix> yeah, maar.[16:03:52] <Begasus> later op de avond hondentraining ;)[16:03:57] <Technix> mooi![16:04:00] <Technix> hoe groot?[16:04:22] <Technix> hoevel honden hebt je?[16:04:30] <Begasus> de reu (male) is bijna 8 maanden, de teef (bitch) is net 6 maanden door[16:04:50] <Begasus> 2 husky's, 1 colli, 1retriever en nog een bastaardje binnen ;)[16:05:27] <Technix> geveldig, ik hoop mijn ouder hond wijzen leven, maar, he heeft de broodje kanker (breast?)[16:05:40] <Begasus> borst*[16:05:42] <Technix> ah[16:05:47] <Technix> yeah, I said bread.[16:05:48] <Technix> lol[16:05:51] <Begasus> broodje = sandwich ;)[16:05:59] <Begasus> or bread*[16:06:03] <Technix> some words, are not coming as fast as I wanted... :P[16:06:06] <Technix> but you got my meaning[16:06:07] <Begasus> hehe[16:06:14] <Begasus> yeah point taken[16:06:18] <Technix> het niet slecht, eh?[16:06:34] <Begasus> de grote lijnen zitten er nog in ja[16:06:39] <Begasus> hoe lang ben je nu al terug?[16:06:44] <Technix> voor een uitenmensen[16:06:58] <Technix> twee jaars, meer[16:07:06] <Technix> ik NL missen[16:07:10] <Begasus> blijven oefenen ;)[16:07:13] <Stargater> utrecht , alkmar am zee[16:07:30] <Technix> oefenen == ?[16:07:47] <Begasus> Utrecht is niet slecht neen ... maar ik prefereer het leven op het platteland boven het leven in de stad ;)[16:07:55] <Begasus> oefenen = practice[16:07:58] <Technix> oh right.[16:09:23] <Technix> ja, ik denkt Utrecht mooi ook, het klein maar met kleinje mooiii, ja denk? Rotterdam is hele mooi en futuur[16:10:58] <surrounder> wageningen![16:10:59] <surrounder> o//[16:11:04] <Begasus> zijn voor mij allemaal grootsteden (grote stad) als ik kijk waar ik woon (bijna in de bossen) :D[16:11:09] <Begasus> 'lo surrounder ;)[16:11:12] <surrounder> ola :P[16:13:21] *** absabs has joined #haiku[16:13:34] <absabs> I'm back[16:13:35] <absabs> :P[16:13:36] <Technix> bossen bent mooi[16:13:50] <Technix> hi absabs[16:14:01] <Begasus> wb absabs[16:14:05] <absabs> haya Technix[16:14:15] <Technix> Begasus: so, not bad, after not speaking it for over 2 years?[16:14:18] <absabs> hi Begasus[16:15:23] <Begasus> not bad Technix ... and writing is always more difficult then speaking the language ;)[16:15:36] <Technix> yeah, the grammar was horrible, I'm sure[16:15:55] <Technix> but I can generally understand about 80% of written, and 60% of oral now still[16:16:16] <Technix> for fun, I pop on Nederlands 1 on radio online (winamp)[16:17:36] <Begasus> lol[16:17:59] <Begasus> I rarely pop up a radio station from the Netherlands :P[16:18:14] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[16:20:55] <DeadYak> Begasus: flemish is somewhat different isn't it? iirc[16:21:26] <Technix> its softer[16:21:31] <DeadYak> yeah[16:21:33] <Technix> there are no hard 'G's[16:21:38] <DeadYak> that's what I mostly noticed when I lived there[16:21:52] <Technix> some would say, the flemish are weaker. :P[16:21:54] <DeadYak> dutch sounded a lot more guttural by comparison, for lack of a better way of putting it[16:21:55] <Begasus> yep ;)[16:22:05] <Technix> guttural is pretty accurate[16:22:13] <Technix> I call it the spit and shine language[16:23:07] <Begasus> on the other hand .. in our parts we are known as 'De Limburgers'! (both Belgium and the Netherlands have one province that was combined once)[16:24:01] <DeadYak> Begasus: that's the province I lived in once upon a time :)[16:24:30] <Begasus> best one ;)[16:24:34] * Begasus ducks[16:25:08] <DeadYak> Begasus: at least I think Geel was in Limburg...[16:25:09] <Begasus> what town did you live DeadYak ?[16:25:19] <Begasus> ah that's in Belgium's Limburg[16:25:30] <DeadYak> that's what I meant :)[16:25:35] <DeadYak> I've never lived in .nl :)[16:26:00] <Begasus> ah ... thought you lived in NL once :P[16:26:11] <stpere> oh god.. yawning like hell[16:26:14] <DeadYak> nope[16:26:15] <DeadYak> .be :)[16:26:19] <DeadYak> for 8 months or so[16:26:22] <Begasus> so you moved around a bit then[16:26:27] <stippi> bye all[16:26:28] <stpere> .be.. greatest TLD ;-)[16:26:30] *** stippi has quit IRC[16:26:31] <stpere> bye[16:26:32] <DeadYak> Begasus: that's an understatement[16:26:36] <Begasus> hehe[16:37:02] <Begasus> wished firewire support was a bit better ... need to run windblows to pull in the movie from the camera ... :/[16:37:51] <DeadYak> Begasus: one of the SoC projects is doing a DV node[16:37:58] <DeadYak> assuming we get enough slots[16:38:13] <Begasus> would be great ;)[16:38:46] <andybe> Begasus: broardcom 440 compiles, but never works.[16:38:46] <Begasus> the tux4kids project has about a 100 application submissions IIRC[16:39:11] <andybe> i don't like my networkcard at all.[16:39:36] <Begasus> no network for me also on this laptop in Haiku[16:39:43] <Begasus> on the pc it's doing ok[16:39:58] <surrounder> how's the via rhine support ?[16:40:02] <andybe> wired Begasus[16:40:21] <andybe> it's the my freebsd version....[16:41:05] <andybe> hm....looked around, managed it out, got mac address, can set ip address, but dhcp fails over and ping never works...grrrr[16:41:47] <absabs> Begasus, sth need to do with firewire stack are sbp support and dv media node[16:41:49] <Begasus> bugger ..[16:42:04] <Begasus> 0_o[16:42:07] <Begasus> ;)[16:42:20] <absabs> in the future may be ip over 1394[16:42:57] <absabs> IMHO, its priority is low[16:43:08] <absabs> I mean ip over 1394[16:43:42] <Begasus> so leaving for a bit here[16:43:44] <Begasus> bbl[16:44:12] *** Begasus is now known as Begasus_bbl[16:44:13] <Teknomancer> cu Begasus_bbl[16:44:22] <Begasus_bbl> later ;)[16:47:06] *** just_me has joined #haiku[16:47:32] <just_me> hallo[16:52:18] <stpere> hi just_me[16:53:05] <just_me> hey actually ther is someone around :-)[16:53:26] <just_me> I was wondering if all inputs from a mouse were going through the input server in haiku[16:53:43] *** andybe has quit IRC[16:54:26] <DeadYak> just_me: yes.[16:54:29] *** crash| has joined #haiku[16:54:36] <DeadYak> just_me: all inputs from any source go through it[16:54:48] <just_me> what would happen if I had two mice?[16:55:01] <DeadYak> in theory, both would be able to move the pointer I believe[16:55:30] <just_me> is it possible to seperate them and get one cursor per mouse?[16:55:51] <DeadYak> not currently, though that'd be a pretty confusing setup imo[16:56:16] <just_me> I'm wondering if I could build something like it...[16:56:28] <just_me> but at the moment I[16:56:43] <just_me> am pretty much at the begining of figuring out what I want[16:57:10] <DeadYak> I'm not sure what you'd really accomplish with that to be honest, you'd still have the issue of what window has input focus and so forth[16:57:11] <just_me> I'm thinking about a multi input system based on haiku (at the moment)[16:57:29] <just_me> yes, that's the next problem...[16:58:28] <just_me> there has to be something that figures out what user is doing what at which time[16:59:09] <just_me> I guess having two windows in focus at the same time will be kind of a major issue[16:59:27] <DeadYak> that's exactly my point, since that confuses which window keyboard input goes to for instance[16:59:42] <DeadYak> and imo mice really aren't a peripheral that's ideally suited to using several at once[16:59:58] <JonathanThompson> Get two joysticks.[17:00:09] <just_me> I hate joysticks[17:00:32] <just_me> But two people could sit on one computer doing two things at the same time[17:00:38] <just_me> I think that would be cool[17:00:50] <JonathanThompson> Well, the bright side is the GUI won't automatically lock into them, so you can do with them as you wish, as long as you don't try to play a game that tries to take them over.[17:01:39] <just_me> @Jonathan lock into the joysticks?[17:02:03] <JonathanThompson> If you did a lot of hacking to the GUI system so it ran two sets of windows at once so each user saw completely separate sets of application instances, that'd be workable enough, but a lot of work.[17:02:08] <JonathanThompson> YEs.[17:02:36] <just_me> but than I would loose the interaction, right?[17:03:03] <JonathanThompson> Which sort of interaction are you looking for, having two users type into the same window at once?[17:03:28] <just_me> two user using the same system with everything on it at the same time[17:03:53] <just_me> like user1 can't find the go button, but user 2 sees it, so user 2 just presses it[17:04:20] <JonathanThompson> If you're going to do this, the wisest thing to get two users (or more) getting to use two sets of keyboards/mice fully is to have one app_server instance per user.[17:04:54] <JonathanThompson> Then have something like vnc for the common stuff as a mediator.[17:05:00] <just_me> is the app_server the one who knows what mouse is doing what?[17:05:19] <just_me> but vnc is for only one user at the time[17:05:28] <JonathanThompson> Exactly.[17:05:41] <just_me> I want two parallel users :-([17:05:55] <JonathanThompson> This would be two (or more) parallel users :D[17:06:17] <just_me> what if something handles the focuses and binds them to an input?[17:06:31] <just_me> input = input device[17:06:42] *** AlienSoldier has joined #haiku[17:07:15] <JonathanThompson> Just one thing about this whole thing: regardless of what you have in mind, don't expect it to be approved and added into the official tree :)[17:07:26] <just_me> lol[17:07:37] <just_me> not until it works properly :-p[17:07:38] <JonathanThompson> The thing is, for more than one window having focus, you can count on needing some major hacks somewhere, somehow.[17:07:48] <JonathanThompson> Even then, don't expect it to be accepted.[17:08:04] <JonathanThompson> This is such a small percentage of user cases as to not make it worth it.[17:08:07] <just_me> I don't care, who wants it gets it :-)[17:08:32] <JonathanThompson> Then expect to maintain your separate branch: it is completely open and free for modification ;)[17:08:43] <just_me> no problem, I[17:08:54] <just_me> don't want to mess your system[17:08:58] <JonathanThompson> The thing is, what you're wanting will inevitably break many applications that exist now.[17:09:07] <just_me> why?[17:09:09] <JonathanThompson> And the testing overhead would be a nightmare.[17:09:22] <PulkoMandy> just_me: having two active windows in the same app[17:09:23] <JonathanThompson> A lot of applications depend on knowing when they're the *only* application with focus.[17:09:25] <MindChild> "Experts" say that you don't dream in color. While I've always disagreed with that, last night, my whole dream was in technicolor. Strangest dream I had in a long time[17:09:54] <DeadYak> MindChild: I had one once that was in that kind of brownish black and white color scheme that old photographs had..[17:09:55] <JonathanThompson> Makes me think back to our discussion of conscious versus subconscious mind and dreams, MindChild.[17:09:58] <DeadYak> I forget the correct name of that[17:10:12] <MindChild> DeadYak: That is called Sepiatone[17:10:14] <DeadYak> Sepia[17:10:15] <DeadYak> that was it[17:10:17] <DeadYak> thank you :)[17:10:21] <JonathanThompson> Anyone that's said you don't dream in color must be colorblind: *NOT ONCE* have I ever dreamt in black and white.[17:10:34] <just_me> why do the programs need to be the only application with focus?[17:10:46] <JonathanThompson> Because they were designed with that expectation ;)[17:10:53] <DeadYak> for things like lock focus during mouse manipulations for instance[17:11:11] <just_me> well they don[17:11:14] <JonathanThompson> Not only the only applications with focus, but single windows within the applications need to be sure they're the only window in the application with focus.[17:11:15] <DeadYak> it could seriously confuse app state if you're in the middle of a mouse move + drag and you suddenly get another mouse down from a different mouse[17:11:16] <DeadYak> and things like that[17:11:22] <just_me> ok[17:11:26] <just_me> that makes sense[17:11:31] <DeadYak> also getting inputs in multiple app windows at once could cause race conditions[17:11:36] *** aroman has joined #haiku[17:11:39] <DeadYak> like two windows trying to destroy each other simultaneously or whatnot[17:11:46] <DeadYak> anyways, brb work[17:11:46] <JonathanThompson> Oh, my, what a mess things could be :)[17:12:05] <just_me> sounds like a fun thing to solve :-)[17:12:23] <MindChild> You are solving a non-problem[17:12:24] <JonathanThompson> Have fun solving it on your own, including the testing ;)[17:12:36] <MindChild> you need to really step back and ask yourself what you are really trying to accomplish[17:12:40] <just_me> ok, so if I keep it simple and do it on a my app basis[17:13:00] <just_me> I could take two app_servers and get both inputs?[17:13:02] <JonathanThompson> If your single app is the only one that needs to do that, then that's not a breaking thing because it's only your app.[17:13:13] <MindChild> Ok, so you are going to change the fundamental workings of the desktop paradigm, just so your app works a certain way?[17:13:29] <just_me> well I could do a different mouse driver[17:13:31] <JonathanThompson> Well, with an input_server add-on, you could do it without the mess of hacking things to run 2 app_server instances.[17:13:44] *** bSON has joined #haiku[17:13:51] <just_me> sounds a lot better[17:14:09] <JonathanThompson> It'd be a real hack to make 2 app_server instances run ;)[17:14:22] <just_me> and looks like a dirty workaround[17:14:54] <JonathanThompson> Even with limiting it to your own single app, I can see where this could be a mess.[17:14:55] *** Stargater has quit IRC[17:14:56] <just_me> acutally the joystick thing soulds pretty good, all I have to do is say my mouses are joysticks[17:15:12] <JonathanThompson> I'd suggest if you really want to do this, you have separate app instances per user.[17:15:24] <just_me> ?[17:15:49] <just_me> but than I would lose interaction again, wouldn[17:15:52] <JonathanThompson> That's because a single app that controls all app windows of that type will have the focus issues of having more than one at once have focus.[17:15:53] <just_me> 't I?[17:16:06] <JonathanThompson> They can send BMessages back and forth to each other to coordinate.[17:16:47] * PulkoMandy wonders what happens if someone enables focus follows mouse :)[17:17:07] * JonathanThompson notes PulkoMandy brings up a great point ;)[17:17:17] <just_me> nah, that[17:17:28] <just_me> is the same as if they klick into a window[17:17:40] <just_me> just the one or other extra fokus change[17:17:59] <JonathanThompson> I'm seeing something far worse than that in certain conditions possible :P[17:19:25] <just_me> the seperate app instance thing still sounds wrong, it sounds like every user would have his own input field[17:19:34] <JonathanThompson> I think it's looking more and more like the dual joysticks is the wisest thing :)[17:19:41] <just_me> yes[17:20:02] <just_me> actually the idea is pretty good, no one says joysticks have to be joysticks[17:20:09] <JonathanThompson> Well, with two app instances and bmessages sent back and forth, you could have both have a separate but identical window that live updates what the other one does, if desired.[17:20:31] <JonathanThompson> I remember writing a test app on the Apple 2C that treated the joystick sort of like a mouse.[17:20:51] <just_me> that must have been like yesterday ;-=[17:21:03] <JonathanThompson> Late 80's :D[17:21:04] <just_me> (I hate this keyboard)[17:21:28] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[17:21:35] <just_me> What was the difference between the apple 2c and the apple 2e?[17:21:47] <just_me> I think I had a 2e[17:21:56] <MindChild> You can have two mouse pointers.... keep track of the last window focused with each. When input starts coming in, switch focus to the last focused window of that device. Associate a keyboard with a mouse as a single association[17:22:03] <PulkoMandy> the 2c is smaller and doesn't have expansion ports[17:22:17] <JonathanThompson> Slots, at first the CPU was a different version (the enhanced Apple 2e had the 65c02) RAM, a keyboard switch, some firmware differences, size and case...[17:22:19] <MindChild> Ive never seen a monochrome 2e[17:22:24] <MindChild> but I have a 2c[17:22:50] <JonathanThompson> The 2c has the 80 column text support built-in to the motherboard.[17:22:59] <JonathanThompson> The 2e has it still as a separate slot.[17:25:24] *** Hoern has joined #Haiku[17:25:26] <just_me> @MindChild where would you put that?[17:25:39] <just_me> the single association[17:26:10] <just_me> are you thinking of the single app or system wise multimouse?[17:26:25] <just_me> wise = wide[17:26:26] <MindChild> System wide[17:26:57] <MindChild> Windows can do it. X11 can do it. I can't see a technical limitation as to why Haiku couldn't[17:27:09] <just_me> windows can?[17:27:13] <MindChild> Sure[17:27:26] <MindChild> It requires some drivers I believe[17:27:30] <just_me> I've heard of some special Xserver on linux[17:27:33] <MindChild> but it is almost no code[17:27:39] <MindChild> It isnt special[17:27:46] <MindChild> X can do it all by itself[17:28:16] <just_me> can I have two users use two programs at the same time?[17:29:53] <MindChild> Well, it will work like I said. Only one window techically has focus at a time. When input is coming from two directions, focus will shift between their last focused window[17:30:06] <MindChild> As long as you turn off focus hilighting, it works fine[17:30:16] <aroman> hmm... Is there no GUI builder tool for BeOS/Haiku? As in a tool that lets me design the GUI and generate code?[17:30:17] <MindChild> else you get weird flicker[17:30:24] <just_me> well user inputs are pretty slow so the switching should be no problem[17:31:02] <DeadYak> aroman: none that work particularly well at the moment[17:31:32] <MindChild> That is really why visual studio is great and why I believe windows is so popular[17:31:54] <MindChild> even other GUI builders aren't very well integrated[17:32:13] <just_me> @MindChild is there a name I could google after?[17:32:24] <MindChild> for what... X or Windows?[17:32:35] <just_me> I don't care I would need both anyways[17:32:48] <MindChild> http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Advanced_Mouse[17:32:51] <just_me> I wan't to see the differences[17:32:54] <MindChild> that should get you somewhat started[17:33:33] <just_me> thank you very much, I'll have a close look at that :-)[17:33:50] <MindChild> no problem[17:33:50] <aroman> just_me: also have a look at http://wiki.x.org/wiki/XInputHotplug[17:34:33] <just_me> got it bookmarked[17:34:37] *** luroh has joined #haiku[17:35:21] <stpere> Thom_Holwerda: thanks for calming the ml ;-)[17:36:09] <DeadYak> indeed[17:36:39] *** stargater has joined #haiku[17:36:46] <stargater> re[17:46:03] <just_me> does it still make sense to read the be book until the haiku book is done?[17:49:20] *** tic_ has quit IRC[17:49:55] <AlienSoldier> just_me yes, i don't think it will change that much[17:50:22] <just_me> ok, thank you[17:50:52] <just_me> I have some new things to think about, thanks for the friendly feedback :-)[17:51:00] <just_me> bye and have a nice day[17:51:42] *** just_me has quit IRC[17:55:42] *** PascalR has joined #haiku[17:55:45] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[17:57:12] *** PulkoMandy has quit IRC[17:59:20] *** aroman has quit IRC[18:00:29] *** Hoern has quit IRC[18:01:20] *** daste has joined #haiku[18:01:30] *** jiuda_D`arkness has joined #haiku[18:05:00] *** meisje has joined #haiku[18:05:02] *** nils_t has joined #haiku[18:05:02] *** meisje has quit IRC[18:07:01] <MindChild> If I have say sin(12345), what do I need to get back 12345 from the result of that? arcsin doesn't SEEM to be giving me what I was looking for[18:10:57] *** stargater has quit IRC[18:11:24] <luroh> MindChild: inv sin (inverse sine)[18:11:42] <Teknomancer> also the input is in radians i believe[18:12:51] <geist> so if your input was <0 or >pi you wont be able to get it back directly[18:18:10] *** MauriceK has joined #haiku[18:18:48] *** nibbble has joined #haiku[18:20:11] <stpere> because sin[18:20:12] <stpere> oops[18:20:31] <stpere> because sin is cyclic, there are many possible sin(x)==sin(y) where x!=y[18:20:49] <geist> right[18:23:02] *** Barrett666 has quit IRC[18:23:03] *** jiuda_D`arkness is now known as Barrett666[18:23:29] *** dr_evil has joined #haiku[18:30:09] *** nibble has quit IRC[18:33:27] *** mib_8hluctlj has quit IRC[18:40:36] *** pfoetchen has joined #haiku[18:47:17] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[18:47:18] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[18:48:13] *** Hugen_ has joined #haiku[18:48:19] <Hugen_> hi all[18:57:04] <stpere> hi Hugen[18:58:05] <Hugen_> hi stpere[18:59:50] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dr_evil[19:00:09] *** mib_jt431u0c has joined #haiku[19:00:32] *** HeTo has quit IRC[19:01:24] *** leszek has joined #haiku[19:02:11] <leszek> hi[19:03:56] <Hugen_> leszek: hi[19:04:31] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[19:04:42] *** henkka has joined #haiku[19:04:54] *** henkka is now known as HeTo[19:07:53] *** AndrevS has joined #haiku[19:15:27] *** absabs has quit IRC[19:17:22] *** valexey has joined #haiku[19:20:27] *** AndrevS has quit IRC[19:24:31] *** bogomipz has joined #haiku[19:25:04] *** crash_ has joined #haiku[19:25:19] *** PascalR has quit IRC[19:26:37] *** daste has quit IRC[19:27:38] *** MrSunshine has joined #haiku[19:29:42] *** Hugen_ has quit IRC[19:29:53] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[19:33:40] *** andybe has joined #haiku[19:33:49] <andybe> hello mmu_man[19:34:02] <andybe> hoi dr_evil ist auch da[19:39:34] *** crash| has quit IRC[19:42:58] <mmu_man> plop[19:43:40] <stpere> hey mmu_man[19:43:55] <Thom_Holwerda> stpere: np :)[19:44:07] *** Stargater has joined #haiku[19:44:10] <Stargater> hu[19:47:39] *** crash_ has quit IRC[19:48:38] *** hbhth has joined #haiku[19:55:34] *** Wiss has joined #haiku[20:00:20] <andybe> hello Stargater[20:00:58] <Stargater> hi andybe[20:02:52] <andybe> mmu_man: the bfe (broadcom 440 driver) compiles, but not works with my laptop.[20:03:13] <mmu_man> I could test it here but I don't have the time[20:03:46] <andybe> no problem mmu_man[20:04:40] <andybe> i compared it with the other freebsd ports, that's all i did (include the interrupt)[20:05:44] *** PascalR has joined #haiku[20:07:19] <andybe> ok, go watching a film see you all...my girlfriend is around..[20:07:45] *** andybe has quit IRC[20:18:50] *** PascalR has quit IRC[20:18:58] *** El-Al has joined #haiku[20:19:10] *** mats has joined #haiku[20:19:40] <Teknomancer> g'nite all[20:19:42] *** Teknomancer has left #haiku[20:21:11] *** Barrett has joined #haiku[20:21:22] <Stargater> hi Barrett[20:26:36] <Barrett> hi Stargater[20:26:45] *** leszek has quit IRC[20:26:49] *** bSON has quit IRC[20:30:13] *** hbhth has quit IRC[20:31:28] *** crash| has joined #haiku[20:32:48] *** AndrevS has joined #haiku[20:33:16] <MindChild> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl8FTdjNri4[20:33:23] <MindChild> not a rickroll your you can ban me[20:33:30] <MindChild> s/your/or[20:35:45] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[20:36:51] *** Barrett666 has quit IRC[20:36:52] *** Barrett is now known as Barrett666[20:47:37] *** miqlas has joined #haiku[20:52:35] *** Barrett666 has quit IRC[20:53:01] *** Barrett666 has joined #haiku[20:53:24] *** crash| has quit IRC[20:54:33] *** hUMUNGUs has quit IRC[20:59:49] *** hUMUNGUs has joined #haiku[21:04:10] <CIA-50> laplace * r24857 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/print/PrintersWindow.cpp: Applied patch for ticket #2042 by Philippe Saint-Pierre: List box was overlapping the label of the list box.[21:05:35] *** El-Al has quit IRC[21:06:28] <stpere> should we modify the various apps to make sure they use the new layout thing? (like network preflet was just modified lately?)[21:06:48] <stpere> or rather just wait for a significant change to do it at the same time?[21:07:15] <stpere> you can replace we, by I, btw :)[21:07:22] <stpere> I wouldn't mind doing part of it[21:08:28] *** mats has quit IRC[21:08:38] *** daste has joined #haiku[21:12:08] *** rcjsuen_ has joined #haiku[21:15:38] *** Atomozero has quit IRC[21:16:18] *** AndrevS has quit IRC[21:19:30] *** plfiorini has joined #haiku[21:19:52] <plfiorini> hi[21:20:30] <JonathanThompson> If you're insulted by a refrigerator, is that a freezer burn?[21:21:52] <ari-free> that would be like getting the cold shoulder[21:22:37] <stpere> hi plfiorini[21:22:57] <JonathanThompson> And if they do it with a large group to embarrass you, would that then transform into a shoulder roast?[21:23:14] *** dchis has joined #haiku[21:23:35] <ari-free> only if they do it in good humor[21:23:56] <ari-free> but that goes in the freezer[21:24:03] <plfiorini> hi stpere[21:24:19] <CIA-50> mmlr * r24858 /haiku/trunk/ (15 files in 8 dirs): (log message trimmed)[21:24:19] <CIA-50> Integrate the USBKit into libdevice and make it public. I left the USBKit.h[21:24:19] <CIA-50> name, as it in fact is like a kit in the kit. It combines the different BUSB*[21:24:19] <CIA-50> classes as compared to SerialPort.h where there really is a 1:1 relationship[21:24:19] <CIA-50> between the header and the (one) class. If someone has a better fitting name[21:24:22] <CIA-50> please shout.[21:24:23] <CIA-50> Separated the usb_raw.h into usb_raw.h which defines the protocol and[21:25:23] *** jiuda_D`arkness has joined #haiku[21:32:46] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[21:32:55] *** rcjsuen_ is now known as rcjsuen[21:36:00] *** EuanK has joined #haiku[21:38:25] *** bSON has joined #haiku[21:39:55] * stpere got a headache[21:40:01] <stpere> lacks coffee[21:40:41] *** Barrett666 has quit IRC[21:40:54] <CIA-50> bonefish * r24859 /haiku/trunk/src/bin/copyattr.cpp: (log message trimmed)[21:40:54] <CIA-50> * Explicitly support source paths with a leaf name "." or "..". In this[21:40:54] <CIA-50> case the contents of the directory shall be copied into the target[21:40:54] <CIA-50> directory, not the source directory itself. This is actually a feature[21:40:54] <CIA-50> the build system uses for installing in a directory, but I've only[21:40:54] <CIA-50> ever tested it under Linux and there a bug in libbe_build made it work[21:40:58] <CIA-50> automatically. Fixes #2036.[21:40:59] *** jiuda_D`arkness is now known as Barrett666[21:41:51] <CIA-50> bonefish * r24860 /haiku/trunk/src/ (build/libbe/storage/Entry.cpp kits/storage/Entry.cpp): If the entry leaf name is "." or ".." we need to resolve it.[21:43:46] *** Begasus_bbl is now known as Begasus[21:44:53] *** Atomozero has joined #haiku[21:46:44] <Begasus> re[21:51:17] *** duaneb has joined #haiku[21:51:41] <duaneb> hello, y'all[21:52:45] <duaneb> anyone else use the C++ Programmer's Book?[21:52:58] <EuanK> what the beos one?[21:53:01] <DeadYak> not me[21:53:23] <duaneb> no[21:53:34] <duaneb> The C++ Programmer's Book[21:53:42] <duaneb> at&t, Paul J. Lucas[21:53:50] <EuanK> nah[21:54:00] <EuanK> books are for noobs[21:54:13] <EuanK> I've got 6 on C and C++...[21:54:15] <Technix> yeah, its all on the Tubes anyhow[21:54:30] <Technix> just remember kids, don't clog your tubes![21:54:39] * Technix with that, goes to bed[21:54:54] *** WindowsUninstall has joined #haiku[21:55:11] <duaneb> meh, I hate the online stuff[21:55:14] <duaneb> poor quality[21:56:46] <Begasus> g'night Technix[21:59:08] * ddew|bofh waves[22:01:08] <stpere> oh ddew|bofh :)[22:01:28] <stpere> hmm[22:01:35] <stpere> I meant to type hi[22:01:45] <ddew|bofh> heh, close enough :P[22:05:43] *** andybe has joined #haiku[22:06:04] <andybe> dr_evil: kurze frage, warum ist die webseite so langsam???[22:06:17] <andybe> und der web svn...alles ein server?[22:07:03] <ddew|bofh> heh, if you're looking for "slow" you should check out dev.haiku-os.org :)[22:07:20] <ddew|bofh> haiku-os is actually pretty fast[22:07:54] <DeadYak> he's talking about svn.berlios.de I think[22:08:02] <duaneb> woah[22:08:09] <duaneb> so in english = so in german?[22:08:09] <andybe> ddew|bofh: ist is slow...this and last week also...[22:08:46] <ddew|bofh> ah, i thought you were talking about haiku-os :)[22:08:58] * ddew|bofh has way too many things on his mind right now :P[22:08:59] <DeadYak> duaneb: depends on context, in some cases yes[22:09:09] <duaneb> THE UNIVERSE IS COLLAPSING![22:09:17] * duaneb knows german now...[22:09:22] *** ozy` has quit IRC[22:10:25] <ddew|bofh> german's a weird language, i've studied it for like 5 years and still i can barely make myself understood :)[22:10:31] <ddew|bofh> the grammar's killer[22:10:47] <duaneb> It seems remarkably similar to latin[22:10:55] <duaneb> (which I have mastered)[22:11:01] *** bSON has quit IRC[22:11:14] <ari-free> the only german i know comes from the little yiddish i know...and the grammar is not the same[22:11:18] <ddew|bofh> mastered? like written books on the subject?[22:12:01] <DeadYak> in terms of grammar it's not very similar to latin at all :)[22:12:04] <duaneb> ddew|bofh, no, but I can sight translate and awkwardly converse with my latin course[22:12:06] <duaneb> really?[22:12:15] <duaneb> has masc, fem, and neuter[22:12:18] <duaneb> genitive[22:12:29] <duaneb> does it have dative?[22:12:33] <ddew|bofh> yup[22:12:43] <duaneb> nice[22:12:51] <MindChild> Hey guys[22:12:54] <ddew|bofh> hiya[22:12:55] <MindChild> boobies[22:13:01] <DeadYak> it has some of the same concepts, certainly, but the way they wind up being structured in actual usage is another story entirely[22:13:16] <MindChild> See. I wasn't banned here[22:13:30] <duaneb> ahh, you're talking about word order or something?[22:13:31] <MindChild> #linux and #gentoo so didn't like it[22:13:36] <DeadYak> that too[22:13:36] <MindChild> yeah[22:13:51] <duaneb> in latin, you can shuffle the words around randomly and it means the exact same thing[22:13:54] <DeadYak> word order, conjugation...[22:14:17] <duaneb> huh[22:14:21] * duaneb needs to learn german[22:14:24] <ari-free> I hate grammar[22:14:32] <ari-free> i think it should be abolished[22:14:44] <ddew|bofh> i know swedish's a germanic language, but the name's about the only connection they have. *shudder*[22:15:27] <duaneb> ari-free, no you don't[22:15:35] <duaneb> imagine the internet... except EVERYWHERE YOU GO[22:15:44] <ari-free> grammar is something you pick up afte using the language after a while[22:16:59] *** plfiorini has quit IRC[22:17:16] <duaneb> actually I'd like to live in sweden[22:17:30] <duaneb> but I hear that, next to icelandic, it's one of the hardest languages to learn[22:18:00] <ddew|bofh> nah, swedish's fairly simple to learn[22:18:11] <duaneb> nice![22:18:23] <ari-free> simple phonetic system[22:18:24] <duaneb> I hear you guys have nice internet over there[22:18:43] <ddew|bofh> indeed we do[22:18:48] <duaneb> wootsorz[22:18:50] <duaneb> it compiled[22:19:50] *** plfiorini has joined #haiku[22:20:21] *** DeadYak has quit IRC[22:21:53] <xcasex> ddew|bofh: lies.[22:21:56] <xcasex> we do not.[22:22:00] <xcasex> it could be improved.[22:22:26] <duaneb> what do you have?[22:22:31] <ddew|bofh> they're working on it here[22:22:39] <ddew|bofh> hopefully we'll get gigabit this year[22:23:17] <xcasex> duaneb: 21Megabit adsl. going vdsl2 in three months[22:23:22] <duaneb> heh[22:23:26] <duaneb> that's bad?[22:23:26] <xcasex> ddew|bofh: hopefully being the operative word.[22:23:29] <xcasex> duaneb: yes.[22:23:34] <ddew|bofh> they're doing trials[22:23:35] <duaneb> I have... 6 megabits :P[22:23:41] <xcasex> that's very.. ghetto[22:23:44] <ddew|bofh> i have ~125[22:23:48] <duaneb> >.<[22:24:07] <duaneb> ddew|bofh, what do you usually get in megabytes/second down?[22:24:20] <surrounder> 20mbit is nice here, only eur 20 a month :)[22:24:22] <ddew|bofh> depends on the server i'm connecting to[22:24:32] <duaneb> ddew|bofh, on the fastest[22:24:55] <ddew|bofh> about 15MB/s[22:25:27] <ddew|bofh> i think my router is playing nice with the ISP:s gear[22:25:51] <duaneb> >.<[22:26:00] <duaneb> 200 kilobytes per second! yea![22:26:01] *** HeTo has quit IRC[22:26:04] <duaneb> 400 on a good day[22:26:12] <Thom_Holwerda> i love my isp[22:26:18] <Thom_Holwerda> they are upping my speed :)[22:26:19] <surrounder> Thom_Holwerda: which one ?[22:26:29] <Thom_Holwerda> surrounder: quicknet[22:26:41] <surrounder> hm, never heard of them :D[22:26:45] <Thom_Holwerda> i do 1.3mb per second sometimes[22:26:53] <duaneb> Thom_Holwerda, where are you?[22:26:55] <Thom_Holwerda> surrounder: ze zitten alleen in noord holland[22:27:06] <Thom_Holwerda> en dan nog alleen boven a'dam geloof ik[22:27:17] <surrounder> Helaas is QuickNet ADSL niet leverbaar op uw adres.[22:27:18] <surrounder> lawl[22:27:24] <Thom_Holwerda> duaneb: the netherlands[22:27:32] <Thom_Holwerda> surrounder: ik heb kabel :)[22:27:57] <Thom_Holwerda> quicknet/multikabel is eig het televisie kabel bedrijf ding[22:28:02] <surrounder> aah ok[22:28:11] <Thom_Holwerda> heb ook mn digitale tv en digitale telefoon bij die gasten[22:28:18] <surrounder> wat een luxe :P[22:28:28] <Thom_Holwerda> iets duurder dan de grote landelijke ISPs, maar een stuk chiquer en betere service[22:28:30] <surrounder> zit nu bij telfort en dat bevalt eigenlijk wel[22:28:48] <Thom_Holwerda> mm hoor idd nooit iets slechts over telfort[22:28:51] <surrounder> zou veel sneller kunnen gaan maar geregel en dingen[22:29:08] <surrounder> vind 600/750 kb/s down best eigenlijk[22:29:34] <surrounder> wel even wennen though, voor ik verhuisde had ik 100 mbit op de kamer :<[22:29:41] <Thom_Holwerda> 65E in de maand voor internet (1.3mb/s down), telefoon, digitale en analoge tv in 1[22:29:43] <Thom_Holwerda> haha[22:29:44] <Thom_Holwerda> wow[22:29:52] <surrounder> ja was luxe[22:29:54] <surrounder> wageningen++[22:29:55] <surrounder> :P[22:29:58] <Thom_Holwerda> heh :)[22:30:10] <Thom_Holwerda> op de VU is de boel capped volgens mij[22:30:17] <andybe> web svn takes looong[22:31:29] <duaneb> man, it's *fast* here[22:31:40] <ddew|bofh> it's fast here too[22:31:49] <andybe> mmu_man: should i pack the source of the broadcom for svn, so other can look at it?[22:31:55] <duaneb> whoops[22:32:04] <duaneb> I went to reddit with politics enabled...[22:32:45] *** clsk has joined #haiku[22:33:00] <Thom_Holwerda> duaneb: that should teach you... going to social news sites[22:33:03] <Thom_Holwerda> pssh![22:34:41] <mmu_man> andybe yeah you can post a diff to the ml[22:34:59] <MindChild> Does Haiku still need a BFS partition to boot off of a cd?[22:35:04] <MindChild> I want to smack it onto a DVD[22:35:19] <MindChild> track rather[22:35:35] <mmu_man> yes it does[22:35:38] <andybe> a make a ticket and add the file mmu_man ...let know that it compiles, for testing.[22:35:49] <MindChild> :(((((((forwnyfrown[22:35:54] *** bogomipz has quit IRC[22:36:35] <duaneb> what's cortex?[22:36:55] <EuanK> media connector visualiser type thingy[22:37:17] <MindChild> Maybe my first bit of code will be at least to boot a BFS filesystem in a file, off of ISO9660[22:37:43] *** ampleyfly has joined #haiku[22:37:52] <ampleyfly> hey[22:37:57] <Thom_Holwerda> ola[22:38:00] *** El-Al has joined #haiku[22:38:13] <duaneb> how do you boot from cd again?[22:38:36] <ampleyfly> are there any developers or summer of code mentors online and awake?[22:39:08] *** andybe_ubuntu has joined #haiku[22:39:24] <MindChild> duaneb: There has to be a BFS track on it[22:39:31] <MindChild> maybe even as the last track[22:39:33] <EuanK> probably lots who are awake but not online. A good programmer always considers all cases ;)[22:39:34] <MindChild> I cant remember[22:39:55] <duaneb> oh, you can just do a jam -q haiku-boot-cd[22:40:47] *** clsk has quit IRC[22:41:04] <ampleyfly> EuanK: Well, the reason they were not considered is because I meant "in here" by online and "available for chat" with awake[22:41:05] *** HeTo has joined #haiku[22:41:33] <ampleyfly> Because I want to chat with someone like that in here =)[22:42:45] <duaneb> you mean... not us?[22:43:03] *** oco has joined #haiku[22:43:15] <ampleyfly> I don't know, if you could help me with applying for the summer of code I'd be happy to chat with you about that =)[22:43:29] <ampleyfly> otherwise I guess you'd find it a bit boring :/[22:43:40] <duaneb> gah, I can't do it because I'm under 18[22:44:03] <MauriceK> re[22:44:24] <ampleyfly> duaneb: I probably can't do it since there's only three hours left till the application deadline :/[22:44:43] <duaneb> just highlight everyone in the channel[22:44:46] <duaneb> and mail the mailinglist[22:44:57] <duaneb> it's for the good of the project :P[22:45:07] <ampleyfly> that sounds like baaad behaviour :P[22:45:50] <ari-free> mail the mailinglist[22:46:36] <ampleyfly> I've never used a mailinglist, how do I?[22:47:47] <duaneb> http://www.freelists.org/list/haiku-development[22:50:05] <andybe> mmu_man: ticket 2047[22:50:55] <mmu_man> yeah sorry too busy[22:51:03] <andybe> no prob.[22:53:55] *** andybe_ubuntu has left #haiku[22:54:08] *** El-Al has quit IRC[22:55:24] *** AndrevS has joined #haiku[22:55:30] *** Atomozero has quit IRC[22:58:54] <ampleyfly> sure takes a long time to get the authorization string[23:00:07] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[23:00:18] *** andybe has left #haiku[23:01:44] *** miqlas has quit IRC[23:02:46] *** Wiss has quit IRC[23:03:49] *** daste has quit IRC[23:04:06] *** daste has joined #haiku[23:05:16] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[23:09:38] *** DeadYak has joined #haiku[23:11:11] *** nielx has joined #haiku[23:12:26] *** petterhj has quit IRC[23:14:15] <nielx> hola[23:14:49] <DeadYak> hi nielx[23:17:23] <nielx> I'm slightly depressed[23:17:28] <DeadYak> why's that?[23:19:12] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[23:19:53] <nielx> well, I just lost faith in the future of the earth[23:20:03] <mmu_man> welcome to the club[23:20:16] <mmu_man> let's relocate to mars[23:20:44] <DeadYak> nielx: what happened now?[23:20:53] <Begasus> CIA-48> lordhoto * r31447 /scummvm/trunk/common/ptr.h: Fixed compilation on gcc 2.95.[23:20:54] <Begasus> ;)[23:20:59] <Begasus> hi nielx ! ;)[23:21:04] <Begasus> ook nog wakker? ;)[23:21:04] <nielx> hi Begasus ![23:21:14] <nielx> jep[23:21:33] <nielx> well, I just don't know if it is feasible to turn around the pollution we generate in our urban environments[23:21:57] <emitrax> ahahahah[23:22:02] <emitrax> you wanna talk pollution ?[23:22:12] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[23:22:12] <emitrax> I'm from Italy[23:22:16] <emitrax> wanna visit naples ?[23:22:18] <emitrax> ...[23:23:12] <nielx> :-)[23:23:25] <mmu_man> nielx we'll just become one more extinc specie, which will leave room for more sustainable species.[23:24:07] <emitrax> we won't extinc[23:24:10] <emitrax> I'm sure of that[23:24:13] *** xcasex has quit IRC[23:24:52] <emitrax> we are just going to be sligtly less than 9 bilions though :)[23:26:10] *** MauriceK has quit IRC[23:28:18] <nielx> well, I don't know, I live in the most polluted city in the Netherlands[23:28:21] *** duaneb has quit IRC[23:29:17] <nielx> and the only way to create direct improvements is to deflate auto traffic[23:29:50] <DeadYak> nielx: what, like, run around slashing tires? :P[23:30:08] <DeadYak> sorry :)[23:30:16] <nielx> no, create a descent urban transport system and decrease road capacity[23:30:30] <DeadYak> I thought .nl generally had decent mass transit?[23:31:02] *** andybe has joined #haiku[23:31:45] <emitrax> I thought north europe was "advanced" from this point of view[23:31:56] <emitrax> I've lost hope in Italy :)[23:31:57] <andybe> mmu_man: i did some changes, it is not stable...but i get a ip address via dhcp...[23:32:04] <mmu_man> ah[23:32:43] *** AnEvilYak has joined #haiku[23:33:27] <nielx> DeadYak: well, depends on what you call descent. Rotterdam has a star-shaped network, which means that getting from one borough to another using mass transit is reasonably impossible[23:33:51] <AnEvilYak> ah[23:33:58] <nielx> added to that, recent measurements confirmed that the time bicyclists have to wait at traffic lights increased[23:34:38] <Thom_Holwerda> public transit is inherently evil in The Netherlands[23:34:53] <Thom_Holwerda> very ineffcient, esp. if you live in a small town like i do[23:36:39] <nielx> well, I'm not at all for public transport. I do want to make a case for mass transit[23:38:07] *** EuanK has left #haiku[23:41:21] *** Barrett666 has quit IRC[23:41:34] <ari-free> i walk to go anywhere I want to go in my neighborhood[23:41:37] *** nibbble is now known as nibble\sleep[23:42:34] <emitrax> ari-free: it depends on the city you live, in my hometown I always needed to use the car to go anywhere. Here in pisa I simply walk or take the bus[23:42:36] <ari-free> it's hard to go from queens to brooklyn by subway[23:43:14] <ari-free> you have to go all around manhattan instead of just going straight down. it's retarded :)[23:43:21] *** BlankBruno has joined #haiku[23:43:42] *** nibble\sleep has quit IRC[23:43:55] <ari-free> manhattan on the other hand is extremely hard to get to by car[23:44:23] <ari-free> so if you want to go to manhattan and brooklyn in one day...well that's going to be a fun day![23:45:57] *** BlankBruno has quit IRC[23:50:26] *** zlominus has joined #haiku[23:50:33] <Thom_Holwerda> i couldnt live in NYC anyway[23:50:38] <Thom_Holwerda> couldnt live in a city, period.[23:51:06] <Thom_Holwerda> but stuff like nyc, tokio... i'd hate it so much.[23:52:13] <ari-free> well queens is not 'in' the city[23:52:21] <mmu_man> <StupidTeenager> TOKIOOO HOTEEEEELLL!!! </StupidTeenager>[23:52:29] *** emitrax has left #haiku[23:52:47] *** aljen has joined #haiku[23:52:52] <Thom_Holwerda> ari-free: compared to living in a 5000 inhabitants hick town in the middle of nowhere...[23:52:55] <aljen> hey[23:53:08] <ari-free> well i wouldn't be able to do that :)[23:53:43] <Thom_Holwerda> well, i've got everything at max 15 mins driving away (alkmaar, a city, is 15m driving away)[23:53:51] <Thom_Holwerda> amsterdam is 45mins[23:53:53] *** NeoOokami has joined #haiku[23:53:59] <Thom_Holwerda> so i have everything i ndeed :)[23:55:43] <ari-free> what do you mean by everything[23:55:58] <Thom_Holwerda> stuff i'd need[23:56:05] <Thom_Holwerda> stores[23:56:35] <ari-free> stuff I need I walk 3 blocks. stuff i want I may have to take the subway[23:57:14] <Thom_Holwerda> yeah when it comes to "needs" (food and such) the supermarkets are within visual range[23:58:13] <ari-free> I like to get suits and they aren't sold in this neighborhood. used to be a store[23:59:44] <ari-free> it offered custom tailored suits