April 29, 2007 
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April 29, 2007 [00:00:00] <dr_evil> changing bios settings won't help, thanks[00:00:32] *** the_webers_inc has joined #haiku[00:01:36] *** rgb has joined #haiku[00:01:41] <dr_evil> ithamar I somehow expect that the external ps2 mouse won't appear at port 0, so that the only thing we can do is ignore that bug[00:02:19] <dr_evil> I tried using 0x90 tp 0x93 prefixes a couple of times in different order, but 0x90 always triggers that strange reponse[00:02:44] <ithamar> yup, when there's too much differences between implementations there's very little you can do to create one "perfect" unified driver :([00:02:49] *** jevin has left #haiku[00:03:10] * siarzhuk go away for syslogs hunting...[00:03:13] *** siarzhuk has quit IRC[00:04:31] * ithamar is engaged in some debugging of his own....[00:04:55] <ithamar> Bl**dy driver works on one box, fails horribly on another :([00:05:12] <dr_evil> just like ps2 ;)[00:05:17] <ithamar> lol[00:05:20] <ithamar> yup[00:06:59] <dr_evil> ithamar siarzuk says that he's experiencing a 20 second delay before the keybaord works. I think thats a bug in the keybaord controllers implementation of active multiplexing, the only delay-until-timeout the driver does is 4 seconds for mouse 0[00:07:15] *** ithamar has quit IRC[00:07:41] *** ithamar has joined #haiku[00:07:41] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o ithamar[00:07:52] <ithamar> re[00:08:11] <ithamar> driver crashed on me :([00:08:27] <dr_evil> ithamar siarzuk says that he's experiencing a 20 second delay before the keybaord works. I think thats a bug in the keybaord controllers implementation of active multiplexing, the only delay-until-timeout the driver does is 4 seconds for mouse 0[00:08:58] <ithamar> sounds like it then[00:09:44] <dr_evil> bt still very strange[00:09:47] <ithamar> I remember looking at the ZETA driver for ps2 devices and saw many, many, hw bugs[00:10:21] <ithamar> (bumped into that with the Synaptics touchpad of my laptop)[00:10:37] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[00:11:51] *** Begasus_bbl has quit IRC[00:11:53] *** Ball000 is now known as Ball000_ZZzzz[00:15:08] *** siarzhuk has joined #haiku[00:15:31] <siarzhuk> dr_evil http://dev.haiku-os.org/attachment/ticket/1185/syslog.ext.ms.hotunplug - booted with mouse[00:15:58] <siarzhuk> http://dev.haiku-os.org/attachment/ticket/1185/syslog.ext.ms.hotplug - mouse is plugged in after boot complete.[00:16:21] <siarzhuk> in both cases [re]plugged mouse doesn't work :-\[00:21:18] <kokito> siarzhuk, what hw are you using?[00:21:32] <gotaku> Trying to track down this bug is horrible... no wonder it hasn't been fixed yet.[00:22:17] <siarzhuk> best of all times sis620-based laptop! :-D[00:23:11] <ithamar> ouch sis....[00:23:25] <ithamar> known for buggy hw....[00:23:30] * ithamar remembers...[00:23:45] <ithamar> even their PCI implementation was broken on 1 board[00:23:56] * ithamar shudders[00:24:13] <ithamar> free beer on me for you dr_evil, next time we meet in person....[00:24:19] <ithamar> just for working on this...[00:24:35] <kokito> ouch! SIS chipsets never gave me a good feeling...[00:24:54] * dr_evil has always avoided SIS :-)[00:25:05] <ithamar> dr_evil is wise :)[00:25:11] <ithamar> evil, but wise :)[00:25:36] <umccullough> my Via C3 box was SiS :([00:25:51] * umccullough uses "was" because it's now been decommissioned to the corner[00:27:11] <dr_evil> siarzhuk I'll do some modifications[00:28:01] *** fernandotcl has joined #haiku[00:28:51] <gotaku> Is DEBUG defined by default?[00:30:09] <Sloar> does anyone know how to use a cue file on toast for mac?[00:31:04] <ithamar> gotaku: nope[00:31:27] <dr_evil> thanks ithamar[00:32:55] <ithamar> dr_evil: you could come here, and we'd have a beer in Amsterdam... or several :P[00:33:06] <gotaku> ithamar: How do I define it? I'm unfamiliar with the build system.[00:34:20] <ithamar> gotaku: hmmm good one... you mean in the Haiku build system?[00:34:24] <gotaku> Yeah.[00:34:26] <dr_evil> ithamar we do have some bugreport that has a PCI problem, because neither configuration mechanism 1 nor 2 works. It was a sis board, but I can't find it in the bug tracker[00:35:47] <ithamar> yep, that's it probably.[00:36:45] <ithamar> dr_evil: In ZETA, we just defaulted to either 1 or 2 (can't remember), and tried to enumerate anyway. That seemed to work fine on that board.[00:37:04] <ithamar> it was just the method detection that didn't work....[00:37:13] <ithamar> tried everything, nothing worked :([00:38:23] <ithamar> (for detection)[00:40:41] <ithamar> gotaku: To be honest, I can't remember :([00:42:38] *** MikeW has left #haiku[00:43:17] <gotaku> I think the greatest motivation for working on Haiku is to use Ubuntu.[00:43:20] <ithamar> dr_evil: Will try and look up what we did exactly to get that SiS PCI to work.... must have some code around[00:44:04] *** pyCube has joined #haiku[00:44:14] <pyCube> woo.. crazy weird dust storm[00:45:02] <pyCube> that odd sensation of red, eye-hurty air and muddy rain[00:51:31] *** the_webers_inc has quit IRC[00:51:36] *** arikato has quit IRC[00:52:47] <dr_evil> siarzhuk ready for another test in a couple of minutes?[00:52:52] *** arikato has joined #haiku[00:53:15] <siarzhuk> yes[00:54:04] *** arikato has quit IRC[00:55:12] <dr_evil> %lld works in haiku for long long?[00:55:28] <_hugo> dr_evil: yep[00:58:48] <dr_evil> thanks[00:58:51] <_hugo> no problem[00:58:56] <dr_evil> siarzhuk try this one please http://dev.haiku-os.org/attachment/ticket/1185/ps2.2?format=raw[00:59:05] <dr_evil> make sure to rename it to ps2[01:00:27] <dr_evil> this might fix the hotplug issues, please repeat the tests[01:00:38] <siarzhuk> just reboot? or play with external mouse too?[01:01:02] <dr_evil> well, similar to previous tests, let me explain[01:01:17] <pyCube> "why are you always going on about women, Stan?"[01:02:08] <Pulko_Mandy> +++[01:02:10] *** Pulko_Mandy has quit IRC[01:02:11] <dr_evil> 1st test, reboot without mouse, after startup try to use mouse and keyboard, check how long it needs until keybaord works, and when it does, please input the mouse, and try to use it[01:02:24] <dr_evil> for a couple of seconds, until it either works or still doesn't[01:02:25] *** rgb has quit IRC[01:02:45] <dr_evil> you might also diconnect and reconnect it, see if that works[01:02:53] *** sarcas has joined #haiku[01:03:02] <dr_evil> and second test, the same, but reboot with mouse beeing plugged in[01:03:41] <siarzhuk> well.[01:03:42] <dr_evil> I bumped the hotplug detection time delta from 50 ms to 5 sec[01:03:55] *** ChrisHJW has quit IRC[01:04:08] <dr_evil> and republishing delayfrom 0 to 2.5 sec[01:05:16] <siarzhuk> bis bald![01:05:20] *** siarzhuk has quit IRC[01:06:37] <kokito> ???[01:07:52] *** Thom_Holwerda has quit IRC[01:08:33] *** bobwhoops has quit IRC[01:08:48] *** bobwhoops has joined #haiku[01:09:24] *** ithamar has quit IRC[01:09:51] *** ithamar has joined #haiku[01:09:52] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o ithamar[01:17:44] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[01:20:54] *** arikato has joined #haiku[01:24:06] *** JamesB192 has joined #haiku[01:24:18] <dr_evil> uhh, I just noticed another reason for hotplug not beeing detected after boot without mouse, I just introduced the error, hmmm, two days ago[01:24:24] *** siarzhuk has joined #haiku[01:24:44] <siarzhuk> dr_evil http://dev.haiku-os.org/attachment/ticket/1185/syslog.hotplug.ms.2 - boot without mouse[01:24:55] <siarzhuk> http://dev.haiku-os.org/attachment/ticket/1185/syslog.hotunplug.ms.2 - boot with mouse[01:25:43] <siarzhuk> hotplug is still not working after [re]pluging the mouse. keyboards delay is still 20-seconds long :-\[01:26:04] <dr_evil> [01:26] <dr_evil> uhh, I just noticed another reason for hotplug not beeing detected after boot without mouse, I just introduced the error, hmmm, two days ago[01:26:33] <siarzhuk> hm[01:26:35] <dr_evil> and for the case[01:26:54] <dr_evil> with booting with mouse, this seems to be an input server problem[01:26:55] <dr_evil> 1193 KERN: ps2: PS2_SERVICE_NOTIFY_DEVICE_REPUBLISH input/mouse/ps2/1[01:26:55] <dr_evil> 1194 KERN: ps2: ps2_dev_unpublish input/mouse/ps2/1[01:26:55] <dr_evil> 1195 KERN: ps2: devfs_unpublish_device input/mouse/ps2/1, status = 0x00000000[01:26:55] <dr_evil> 1196 KERN: ps2: ps2_dev_publish input/mouse/ps2/1[01:26:55] <dr_evil> 1197 KERN: ps2: devfs_publish_device input/mouse/ps2/1, status = 0x00000000[01:27:23] <dr_evil> the device gets unpublished and republished with 2.5 sec delay inbetween, but input server doesn't try to open it[01:29:01] *** wildur has quit IRC[01:32:11] <siarzhuk> hm... looks like I have to sleep now |-)[01:32:31] <siarzhuk> bye![01:32:34] *** siarzhuk has quit IRC[01:32:36] <ddew|bofh> sleep is for the weak[01:32:37] <ddew|bofh> :P[01:32:51] *** Minbari has joined #haiku[01:36:09] *** MauriceK_ has quit IRC[01:36:18] <JamesB192> caffeine is good.[01:37:17] <ddew|bofh> thanks for the reminder, the blood content of my caffeine circulation was getting a little high :P[01:37:52] *** Kernel86 has quit IRC[01:39:07] <dr_evil> oh boy, the port 0 workaround he just tested had a off by one bug and was testing port 1, so this logfile is pretty ahem, whatever. more luck tomorrow[01:40:23] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20890 /haiku/trunk/ (4 files in 4 dirs):[01:40:23] <CIA-18> Provide a way to convert FS shell error codes to host platform error[01:40:23] <CIA-18> codes.[01:40:33] <ddew|bofh> i gotta stop doing these late-night runs[01:40:42] <DeadYak> latenight runs of?[01:40:49] <ddew|bofh> megadeth and caffeine can only keep you alive for so long[01:40:54] <DeadYak> hahahahahahahaha[01:40:54] <ddew|bofh> late nights of hackitude[01:40:56] <DeadYak> good answer[01:41:34] <CHodapp> caffeine only goes so far[01:41:42] <ddew|bofh> too bad caffeine would kill you if injected directly :P[01:41:49] <ithamar> cola is the answer :P[01:41:54] <CHodapp> you just have to stay well away from the LD50[01:41:54] <ddew|bofh> my stomach's taking a pounding from all this coffee[01:42:03] <CHodapp> I drink tea instead of coffee[01:42:18] <ddew|bofh> less/no caffeine in that :([01:42:35] <CHodapp> lipton black tea has about 1/2 the caffeine of a cup of coffee[01:42:47] <CIA-18> marcusoverhagen * r20891 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/bus_managers/ps2/ (ps2_service.c ps2_service.h): implemented republishing of devices with a 2.5sec delay. However, the new device isn't noticed by input server, don't know why.[01:42:48] *** JamesB192 is now known as JamesB192_[01:43:03] * JamesB192_ slips some bennies into ddew|bofhs coffee.[01:43:20] *** JamesB192_ is now known as JamesB192[01:43:21] <ddew|bofh> bennies?[01:44:07] *** ithamar is now known as ith|zzzz[01:44:10] <ith|zzzz> night ppl :)[01:44:14] <ddew|bofh> nn[01:44:48] <CIA-18> marcusoverhagen * r20892 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/bus_managers/ps2/ (ps2_dev.c ps2_dev.h):[01:44:48] <CIA-18> Added an optional timeout to ps2_dev_command,[01:44:48] <CIA-18> Changed hotplug handler to use the republishing service.[01:45:05] *** Kernel86 has joined #Haiku[01:46:17] <CIA-18> marcusoverhagen * r20893 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/bus_managers/ps2/ps2_common.c: Implemented a workaround for broken hardware, multiplexed mouse port 0 will be ignored if it's not working after 100 ms[01:46:50] <ddew|bofh> hey, what a cool name. Phaedra[01:47:11] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20894 /haiku/trunk/src/tools/fs_shell/ (11 files):[01:47:11] <CIA-18> * Quieted down success output.[01:47:11] <CIA-18> * Added non-interactive (external commands) support. The BeOS[01:47:11] <CIA-18> implementation needs some more work; well, the whole FS shell will[01:47:12] <CIA-18> probably have build issues on BeOS ATM.[01:47:14] <CIA-18> * Added reasonably complete argument processing in main(). Options are[01:47:16] <CIA-18> similar to the old FS shell.[01:48:43] *** JamesB192 has quit IRC[01:49:01] *** the_webers_inc has joined #haiku[01:52:21] *** the_webers_inc has quit IRC[01:53:08] <gotaku> geist: How do you define DEBUG in the Haiku build system?[01:54:03] <fernandotcl> UserBuildConfig maybe[01:54:28] <fernandotcl> you know, asking support questions @ devs directly in an irc channel isn't exactly polite[01:55:25] <gotaku> You say that like I've never talked to him before.[01:55:56] <fernandotcl> it doesn't matter, imo[01:56:28] <gotaku> Second, how is that a "support" question?[01:56:34] <gotaku> It's a development question.[01:56:58] <fernandotcl> it's a development question when you actually develop something heh[01:57:07] <fernandotcl> not when you fancy trying stuff out[01:57:46] <gotaku> Why would I need to define DEBUG if I was just "trying things out"?[01:58:17] *** Minbari has quit IRC[01:58:18] <gotaku> What's with your attitude?[01:58:38] <geist> i really dont know. I think it's in UserBuildConfig[01:58:45] <fernandotcl> hah ok whatever gotaku[01:58:48] <geist> for the kernel,I've generally just #defined DEBUG at the top of debug.h[01:58:57] <geist> i can't figure out the build system[01:59:06] <ddew|bofh> hehe[01:59:13] <ddew|bofh> you're not the only one ;)[01:59:28] <gotaku> It somehow seems to work though.[01:59:43] <gotaku> Who is bonefish?[01:59:50] <geist> _hugo[01:59:53] <_hugo> Ingo[01:59:54] <DeadYak> Ingo Weinhold = bonefish[01:59:55] <fernandotcl> no[01:59:57] <geist> er[01:59:59] <fernandotcl> yea[02:00:00] <geist> yeah, ingo[02:00:14] <gotaku> That's what I thought, thanks.[02:00:50] <_hugo> geist: did you get my question regarding 'lock' in x86?[02:01:00] <[Katisu]> just be careful, he manages the repository[02:01:16] <[Katisu]> what might look like a code submission might just be him moving code[02:01:47] <DeadYak> [Katisu]: yeah, but I believe he designed Haiku's build system as well[02:02:51] *** pikapika has quit IRC[02:07:48] *** oco has quit IRC[02:08:42] <gotaku> When extracting a file with unzip it sometimes pauses for about 10 seconds not doing anything (it seems). Anyone know the reason for that?[02:08:59] <_hugo> it could be syncing[02:09:16] <_hugo> or just the scheduler being silly[02:09:24] *** fernandotcl has quit IRC[02:10:14] <gotaku> Only seems to happen once near the start.[02:10:47] <_hugo> maybe you have little monkeys inside your setup, who knows[02:10:57] <DeadYak> I want monkeys :/[02:11:15] <_hugo> flying monkeys![02:11:21] <_hugo> go my children, goo[02:11:57] <gotaku> Hurry up and enter KDL damnit...[02:12:04] * DeadYak continues the research[02:12:09] <CIA-18> marcusoverhagen * r20895 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/bus_managers/ps2/ps2_service.c: Implemented a kernel debugger command to force republishing of a ps2 device, to allow input server debugging using vmware.[02:12:11] <_hugo> DeadYak: :-D[02:12:20] <DeadYak> I'm assuming I got the right reference :)[02:12:23] <_hugo> indeed[02:12:27] * DeadYak charges room service to the company[02:12:32] <DeadYak> Fly my pretties, FLY![02:12:41] <gotaku> Hazzah![02:12:46] <DeadYak> such a random moment :)[02:12:49] <_hugo> eheh[02:14:24] * JonathanThompson thinks DeadYak has watched too much of Oz[02:15:47] <ddew|bofh> spends too much time thinking of monkeys too[02:16:02] <DeadYak> JonathanThompson: that was from the Simpsons[02:16:08] <JonathanThompson> Hopefully they don't come flying out of his rear :)[02:16:36] <JonathanThompson> DeadYak, that sounds like out of "The Wizard of Oz" with the flying monkies.[02:16:47] <DeadYak> well it's not :P[02:17:00] <JonathanThompson> Of course, too much of "Simpsons on the Brain" will severely warp you as well :P[02:17:02] <DeadYak> I'm not talking about the wicked witch of the west, I'm talking about Mr Burns :P[02:17:15] <DeadYak> and in this case I might note, Hugo started it :P[02:17:53] <_hugo> mr burns is lovely[02:18:06] * JonathanThompson notes if DeadYak is passing the buck, perhaps he'll be really fortunate by having DeadYak pass much larger denominations (not churches!) his way[02:18:06] <DeadYak> and the only way I've ever seen the movie version of Wizard of Oz was with Dark Side of the Moon as the soundtrack[02:18:09] <DeadYak> only ever read the book otherwise[02:18:28] * _hugo <3 pink floyd[02:18:35] <ddew|bofh> it's actually a half-decent flick[02:18:47] <JonathanThompson> And the other half? :)[02:19:00] <DeadYak> other half of what?[02:19:13] <JonathanThompson> It's a half-decent flick...[02:19:13] <ddew|bofh> JT: *rimshot*[02:19:20] <DeadYak> oh[02:19:25] <DeadYak> you and your puns[02:19:28] <gotaku> Oh the Ottawa game is on...[02:19:42] <JonathanThompson> I know a guy that ate dinner at a comedy club: he asked for a non-joking section.[02:20:10] <ddew|bofh> aw god, this is gonna be a long night ;)[02:20:15] <JonathanThompson> He learned they served breakfast in the morning, so he went back, ordered his eggs funny-side up, got pancakes, waffled on what to drink, but juiced it for all he could.[02:21:22] <gotaku> See what you started?[02:21:42] <ddew|bofh> i'm sorry, i'll never do it again :P[02:21:43] * DeadYak pets ddew|bofh[02:22:01] * JonathanThompson puts a leash on DeadYak, his way of petting him[02:22:11] <DeadYak> :/[02:22:16] * DeadYak hides behind _hugo[02:22:23] * JonathanThompson unleashes DeadYak's creative side[02:22:52] <JonathanThompson> Now all that remains behind is an empty bash :)[02:23:19] * JonathanThompson suspects DeadYak's condition is Terminal now[02:23:23] <_hugo> woot[02:23:37] <ddew|bofh> ürk[02:23:48] <JonathanThompson> ?[02:24:30] <JonathanThompson> A mime is a terrible thing to waste: let's put this one into that sausage grinder and recycle him![02:24:33] <ddew|bofh> one of my fav new words, a germanification of the swedish equivalent of "gron"[02:25:06] * JonathanThompson expects to read that mutation a lot from now on[02:25:22] <gotaku> What's the english equivalent of "gron"?[02:25:35] <ddew|bofh> groan ofc[02:25:47] <ddew|bofh> had smoke in my eye when i typed it :P[02:25:48] <JonathanThompson> Yes, groan.[02:26:13] <JonathanThompson> German and English have a lot of similarities.[02:26:34] <ddew|bofh> english and swedish has got a lot too[02:26:34] <JonathanThompson> Also a lot of differences: that accounts for a lot, when you add it all together, it leaves a bit to be taken away[02:26:55] <ddew|bofh> lots of villages etc in the uk has got swedish-sounding names[02:26:58] <JonathanThompson> English is a melting pot, sort of like weed-laced chocolate.[02:27:13] <DeadYak> ddew|bofh: yep, long night[02:27:26] *** TLF has quit IRC[02:27:37] * JonathanThompson wonders if this will be another 8-day week[02:27:44] <ddew|bofh> i really like the uk, it's on my top 3 list of visited places[02:27:59] <ddew|bofh> london and cambridge are pretty nice anyway[02:29:09] <JonathanThompson> DeadYak, hear anything more about the next WalterCon yet?[02:29:22] <DeadYak> nope[02:29:35] <ddew|bofh> summer event?[02:29:40] <JonathanThompson> Perhaps.[02:29:49] <JonathanThompson> It was fall when it finally happened last year.[02:30:03] <ddew|bofh> might pop by if it's in the summer[02:30:08] *** NeonLicht has quit IRC[02:30:25] <JonathanThompson> I expect there'll be more interesting stuff to show at this next one, whenever it is.[02:30:44] *** NeonLicht has joined #haiku[02:30:54] <JonathanThompson> I'm not at all expecting a beta of Haiku to be ready, and definitely not Haiku being better than beta, but it is progressing.[02:31:24] <ddew|bofh> haiku's really gathered a lot of momentum lately, the devs are doing a great job[02:31:48] <ddew|bofh> *gained[02:32:01] <JonathanThompson> It helps that Haiku, Inc. got a few more sets of shackles attached to computers :P[02:32:22] <dr_evil> beautiful! http://dev.haiku-os.org/attachment/ticket/155/haiku_ps2_mouse_node_monitor_test.png[02:32:27] <ddew|bofh> yah, google are great slave traders[02:32:33] <dr_evil> so why doesn't input server detect it?[02:33:12] * JonathanThompson resists his "Short Circuit" phrase[02:33:39] <JonathanThompson> "More Input_Server! Life is NOT a malfunction! STEPHANIE!"[02:33:57] <DeadYak> Stephanie! You change color![02:33:58] <JonathanThompson> NO dissassembly language![02:35:20] <JonathanThompson> I guess I couldn't resist it well enough, and I got swept up in the current, a revolting state of affairs, that wasn't slowed down by impedance mismatching, and didn't have the capacity to slow me down enough.[02:35:33] <JonathanThompson> I've now inducted that comment onto echolog.[02:35:40] <JonathanThompson> I have the power![02:35:42] <JonathanThompson> :P[02:36:47] * JonathanThompson awaits the obvious question: "Watt's your problem today?"[02:37:04] <gotaku> What is this "cookie" for in the bfs code?[02:37:44] *** arikato has quit IRC[02:38:32] <JonathanThompson> The cookie monster :P[02:38:54] * JonathanThompson starts singing "P is for Pizza, which is good enough for me!" to "C is for Cookie"[02:39:50] *** arikato has joined #haiku[02:40:25] * ddew|bofh starts headbanging to the tune of "The Scorpion" by Megadeth[02:41:43] <Sloar> how do i use the haiku image with vpc?[02:47:44] <kokito> dr_evil, thanx for the hard work on the PS2 mouse bug[02:49:05] <dr_evil> kokito did you have one, too?[02:51:12] <kokito> no dr_evil[02:52:25] <kokito> it's just a general expression of gratitude :)[02:52:50] <dr_evil> Yes I see. I would really like to have working hotplug support, but will continue tomorrow...[02:52:55] <dr_evil> good night[02:53:18] <ddew|bofh> nn[02:55:15] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[02:55:46] *** stargater has quit IRC[02:56:03] *** stargater has joined #haiku[02:56:05] <stargater> re[02:57:10] <JonathanThompson> Greetings, stargater.[02:57:23] * JonathanThompson asks how many chevrons he'd like him to dial[02:57:53] <ddew|bofh> i miss sg-1 :([02:58:04] <stargater> i am too[02:58:13] <JonathanThompson> They're showing new episodes now, at least in the US.[02:58:22] <ddew|bofh> seen those already[02:58:22] <stargater> jo hi JonathanThompson[02:58:31] <gotaku> Er. what's a benaphore?[02:58:41] <JonathanThompson> Though based on the fact that the supposedly "new" Atlantis episodes are ones I've already seen, it makes me think they're shown outside the US first.[02:58:43] <ddew|bofh> atleast there'll be two movies coming out[02:58:56] <ddew|bofh> they're shown in the uk first[02:59:13] <ddew|bofh> i think it's the uk anyway, was on sky[02:59:29] <JonathanThompson> It's a special mutation of a mutex/semaphore that uses an interlocked memory access to try to avoid having to use the semaphore most of the time.[02:59:46] <stargater> in Atlantis i miss the humores (good jokes)[03:00:08] <ddew|bofh> i miss Vala, Claudia Black rocks[03:00:19] <ddew|bofh> she gave the show a fun energy[03:00:19] <JonathanThompson> In the (hopefully) common case, the semaphore is never required for most if not all threads, and it doesn't incur that expense into/out of the kernel.[03:00:24] <stargater> TRUE[03:00:27] <gotaku> I'm surprised that there is no wikipedia entry on it.[03:00:39] <JonathanThompson> What are you waiting for, gotaku? :P[03:00:40] <_hugo> gotaku: "Be"naphore[03:00:50] <ddew|bofh> hehe[03:00:59] <JonathanThompson> The next revision after the Anaphore :P[03:01:04] * ddew|bofh sits down and waits for JT:s response[03:01:09] <ddew|bofh> damn, i was too slow[03:01:26] <JonathanThompson> They decided to avoid the Anaphore in the end :P[03:01:40] <JonathanThompson> (too close to a name with bad connotations)[03:01:43] <stargater> after <S>emaphore ?[03:01:56] <JonathanThompson> Teamaphore :P[03:01:56] <stargater> <T>emaphore[03:02:04] <stargater> cool yes[03:02:54] <ddew|bofh> any autodesk users here?[03:03:04] <JonathanThompson> No, my desk is all manual :P[03:03:05] <_hugo> my desk is manual[03:03:14] <ddew|bofh> *sob*[03:03:22] <ddew|bofh> oh the punnitude[03:03:27] <JonathanThompson> I did work for a competitor of them, but got laid off.[03:03:38] <ddew|bofh> hope they do software rendering[03:03:39] <JonathanThompson> (Working on 3D CAD software)[03:03:48] <ddew|bofh> so i can use inventor in vmware[03:04:02] <Sloar> is corum III any good?[03:04:06] <stargater> reallive is hard (real job, wife,littel boy (2 years old) but is its good (not good for learning c++)[03:04:33] <stargater> JonathanThompson: a CAD for Haiku ?[03:04:36] <JonathanThompson> You'll just have to apply yourself harder, stargater.[03:04:45] <JonathanThompson> No, Kubotek KeyCreator, for Windows.[03:04:58] <stargater> ah ok[03:05:02] <JonathanThompson> Haiku is missing a lot of what it'd take to do truly serious CAD.[03:05:12] <ddew|bofh> the design aspect of inventor 2008 looks really promising[03:05:18] <JonathanThompson> (at least for 3D)[03:08:40] <ddew|bofh> what's the price-range on keycreator?[03:09:02] <ddew|bofh> only saw a license usb key for 50 bucks but i suspect it's a tad more pricey :)[03:09:03] <JonathanThompson> Not anything a Haku user would pay :)[03:09:22] <JonathanThompson> haiku.[03:09:32] <JonathanThompson> Most Haiku users don't have a machine that costs that much.[03:09:35] <ddew|bofh> like ultra-pro corp pricing?[03:09:48] <JonathanThompson> IIRC $3500 for a single seat.[03:09:49] <stargater> AtomoCAD looks intresting i thinl for simple CAD thinks[03:09:56] <stargater> wow[03:09:58] <JonathanThompson> It may be less, I'm not sure.[03:10:17] <JonathanThompson> It's been around (formerly known as KeyCAD) for over 20 years.[03:10:30] <stargater> :-)[03:10:31] <JonathanThompson> (Or maybe I'm forgetting the name...)[03:10:34] <ddew|bofh> looks like i'll be sticking to autocad then :P[03:11:03] <JonathanThompson> Hey, I got laid off in September, details are leaving my mind :P[03:11:08] <ddew|bofh> hehe[03:11:23] <JonathanThompson> Since then, I've worked on Coinstar kiosk software, and now I'm working on Yahoo! database software.[03:11:26] <JonathanThompson> <shrug>[03:12:06] * JonathanThompson hopes Yahoo! doesn't end up resulting in the same situation or similar to his past employers...[03:12:49] *** TTRanger has joined #Haiku[03:12:55] * JonathanThompson lobs a pun at TTRanger[03:13:05] <ddew|bofh> 3500$ is way past what i'll pay for simple prototyping software[03:13:14] * TTRanger whacks it back[03:13:19] <JonathanThompson> It isn't simple prototyping software :)[03:13:43] <ddew|bofh> that's what i'd use it for :)[03:13:58] <JonathanThompson> Depending on what you're doing, it may be far more than you'd have a way to use.[03:14:12] <ddew|bofh> likely, i only do simple designs[03:14:36] <ddew|bofh> like casings, component placements and so on[03:14:51] <JonathanThompson> KeyCreator is fully appropriate for such things as detailed plant and engine designs, for example, or creating complex jet engine parts, and then producing output for CNC machines.[03:15:19] <ddew|bofh> cnc output is a "must" for me[03:15:35] <JonathanThompson> I actually with a few tests ran the machine I had (1.5 GB) out of RAM :P[03:16:02] <ddew|bofh> cad eats ram :)[03:16:34] <JonathanThompson> I had a large, complex model I was working on. As of the time I was laid off, they hadn't yet ported it to 64 bit.[03:16:47] <ddew|bofh> hehe, that's a huge design[03:17:13] <ddew|bofh> if it requires porting i mean[03:17:50] <JonathanThompson> Well, it may not yet be 64 bit clean.[03:18:08] <JonathanThompson> And it has A LOT of code and libraries it depends on.[03:18:30] <JonathanThompson> It took 90 minutes to build with Visual Studio 2003.NET with a 3.4 Ghz P4.[03:18:38] <JonathanThompson> (And that 1.5 GB RAM)[03:18:45] <ddew|bofh> the kind of stuff i do only requires 2D cutting abilities[03:18:50] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[03:18:52] <JonathanThompson> And that wasn't touching the externally-supplied libraries that were pre-built.[03:19:12] <JonathanThompson> KeyCreator also does 2D very well also.[03:19:40] <ddew|bofh> i'm sure it does :)[03:19:54] <ddew|bofh> i like the 3D for the design bit[03:20:02] <ddew|bofh> so i can see how things will fit together[03:20:13] <JonathanThompson> The CNC package also works very well with 2D designs, too.[03:20:23] <JonathanThompson> (That's what I originally was hired to help support)[03:20:57] <ddew|bofh> it rocks having access to a cnc machine :)[03:21:32] <ddew|bofh> makes building crap a whole lot easier[03:21:33] <JonathanThompson> I have some ideas in mind for an aircraft concept and also an engine concept where I wish I had that now.[03:22:03] <ddew|bofh> engine concept for the plane?[03:22:07] <ddew|bofh> or engine in general?[03:22:22] <JonathanThompson> Engine in general, and also an aircraft concept in general.[03:22:37] <JonathanThompson> An aircraft concept that doesn't have anything quite like it in existence AFAIK.[03:22:45] <ddew|bofh> assuming it was a combustion engine?[03:23:03] <JonathanThompson> It is a combustion engine, yes.[03:23:27] <ddew|bofh> must be fun to design and build those :)[03:23:36] <JonathanThompson> It'd be easier to produce than a typical car engine, due to the design, though there are some details I'm a bit weak on, since I don't have that sort of formal training.[03:24:02] <ddew|bofh> car engines usually look and work like they do for a reason ;)[03:24:14] <JonathanThompson> Understood.[03:24:43] <JonathanThompson> But what I have in mind doesn't disregard physics/thermodynamics, it just repackages it in a very interesting form factor.[03:25:09] <ddew|bofh> that's prolly where the training comes in handy, must be a nightmare with all those fluids flowing around not to mention the heat concerns[03:25:39] <ddew|bofh> the greatest engine i've personally seen is the air-cooled boxer engine[03:26:23] <ddew|bofh> the engineering in that one is pure genius :)[03:26:38] <ddew|bofh> no wonder it hung around for over 50 years[03:27:19] <TTRanger> Does anyone have any experience burning DVDs under BeOS?[03:27:53] <mmadia> a little.[03:29:19] <mmadia> i use cdrecord-prodvd ,,,, command line utility.[03:29:24] <TTRanger> mmadia Could you help me a little? I'm trying to figure out the best way to create a bootable DVD that essentially behaves just liike a BeOS drive with everything on it.[03:30:21] <mmadia> sorry dane, i gave up on that. made myself a nice collection of coasters and frisbees .... even a few dents in sheet-rock : )[03:30:30] <TTRanger> mmm[03:30:47] <TTRanger> mmadia What seemed to be the hangup?[03:31:07] <mmadia> my lack of knowledge on doing it : D[03:31:11] <TTRanger> hehe[03:31:14] <TTRanger> ok,[03:31:19] * TTRanger continues his quest[03:31:28] <TTRanger> Anybody else have some experience burning DVDs?[03:33:41] <ddew|bofh> aren't beos cd's pretty much much just 1 track with a boot-image and the rest a BFS image?[03:34:11] <TTRanger> Yes, I think so.[03:35:37] <ddew|bofh> so in theory one could just create a BFS image and burn the both images to a disc with "cdrecord -dao boot.img fs.img" and be done with it?[03:36:00] <TTRanger> Not sure, ddew|bofh I use CD Burner so don't know the syntax[03:36:29] <ddew|bofh> ahh, you wanna do it from beos[03:36:34] *** M199 has joined #haiku[03:38:01] <TTRanger> ddew|bofh Yes[03:38:09] <TTRanger> I don't mind using the command line[03:38:19] <TTRanger> Just need to get it right[03:38:41] <ddew|bofh> i'm not very familiar with cdrecord in beos, i would just create the image file and ftp it over to my linux ws[03:38:50] <JonathanThompson> It takes two to make a thing go right... it takes two to make it out of sight![03:41:18] *** Master199 has quit IRC[03:41:19] *** M199 is now known as Master199[03:45:25] <ddew|bofh> *meh* looks like i'll be needing to dual-boot for autocad :([03:45:38] *** mmadia is now known as mmadia_[03:45:49] <gotaku> On the plus side, trying to track down this bug is letting me see how some of the system works.[03:47:31] <gotaku> Although on the other hand I may go mad.[03:50:26] <umccullough> :)[03:50:33] <umccullough> oh, is that a bad thing?[03:52:05] <gotaku> Yes... I still have no idea why this bug is happening.[03:52:59] <TTRanger> Anybody else have some experience burning DVDs?[03:53:22] <TTRanger> I need to create a bootable DVD containing a BeOS installation.[03:55:58] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[03:56:38] *** the_webers_inc has joined #haiku[03:56:41] <_hugo> i have experience burning matches -- my sweet secret pleasure[03:58:03] <umccullough> and yet you don't drink :P[03:58:04] *** ddew|bofh has quit IRC[03:58:19] <_hugo> yeah[03:58:32] <_hugo> and i was just offered a bottle of scotch[03:58:49] <_hugo> have it on my closed now, getting dust[03:58:54] <_hugo> closet even[03:59:32] <umccullough> i'm a beer fan mostly[03:59:53] <umccullough> so how's the netstack lately? i haven't had much chance to play with Haiku :P[04:00:04] <umccullough> i see lots of slab allocator commits :)[04:00:18] <_hugo> havent played around with it much lately, but seems to be working.[04:00:25] <_hugo> i've been mostly finishing the slab allocator[04:00:34] <Sloar> i seen a utility to change the haiku vmware image to virtual pc but i cant use it on my mac[04:00:48] <Sloar> and i cant figure out how to use the cue in toast for the mac[04:01:07] <umccullough> Sloar, i don't think haiku has ever successfully been tested in virtual pc[04:01:13] <umccullough> are you referring to qemu-img btw?[04:01:20] <Sloar> i wouldnt mind being the first one to do it[04:01:40] <umccullough> i considered trying it before, but qemu-img wouldn't convert to vpc for some stupid reason[04:01:47] <umccullough> even though it says it supports it[04:02:09] <umccullough> and honestly, i hate virtual PC :)[04:02:37] <Sloar> on the mac its all i have except qemu which wont mount my beos cd either[04:03:03] <_hugo> qemu wont mount?[04:03:12] <Sloar> wont install beos[04:03:23] <_hugo> arent you testing haiku?[04:03:27] <Sloar> let me try vpc[04:03:34] <Sloar> trying to[04:03:48] <_hugo> so why do you need a beos cd?[04:03:52] <Sloar> i want haiku but if i have to install beos to use haiku[04:04:04] <_hugo> no you dont[04:04:23] <_hugo> qemu haiku.image[04:04:53] <gotaku> qemu is slow, use vmplayer.[04:05:07] <Sloar> i am doing this on a mac[04:05:12] <gotaku> Ah.[04:05:29] <_hugo> there is also vmware for mac osx, if its intel[04:05:36] <Sloar> nope ppc[04:06:03] <gotaku> Does Haiku even support PPC?[04:06:14] <Sloar> thats why i am emulating a pc[04:06:36] <gotaku> right.[04:07:25] <umccullough> Sloar, try vmware fusion?[04:07:33] <Sloar> on a ppc mac?[04:07:36] <umccullough> oh, sorry :P[04:07:44] <Sloar> see my dilemna?[04:07:48] <umccullough> i walked away and came back :P[04:08:10] <umccullough> i guess parallels is the same problem...[04:08:27] <Sloar> yes intel only[04:09:23] <umccullough> i wonder how similar that version of VPC is to the windows version...[04:09:35] <Sloar> to be honest i dont know[04:10:00] <Sloar> but i did manage to get a vpc2004 windows image of aros to convert over successfully[04:10:11] <umccullough> ah...[04:10:33] <umccullough> let me see if I still have VPC install lying around[04:10:36] <gotaku> This is impossible :([04:10:53] <_hugo> what is?[04:10:58] <Sloar> i do have a crazy idea[04:11:47] <gotaku> _hugo: Trying to find the source of the unzip bug.[04:11:52] <umccullough> vpc2004sp1...[04:12:01] <Sloar> install another os like linux or windows then overwrite that image when i boot from beos cd maybe[04:12:02] <umccullough> i'll install it and see how far i get[04:12:35] <_hugo> gotaku: hopefully wont be impossible :-)[04:13:12] *** [1]umccullough has joined #haiku[04:13:30] *** umccullough has quit IRC[04:13:31] *** [1]umccullough is now known as umccullough[04:13:40] <umccullough> pos[04:13:43] *** sarcas has quit IRC[04:13:51] *** the_webers_inc has quit IRC[04:15:12] *** absabs has joined #haiku[04:15:18] *** the_webers_inc has joined #haiku[04:16:47] <Sloar> i dont know where it is installing but it is so far[04:22:50] <gotaku> Uh, why is FillGapWithZeros completely commented out?[04:23:05] <gotaku> It just returns B_OK[04:23:59] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20896 /haiku/trunk/ (9 files in 5 dirs): pushed the slab init a bit deeper. added a object cache based allocator, including a bootstrap mechanism to have it init during bootup.[04:24:00] <gotaku> Or it's #if 0'ed out rather.[04:31:50] <gotaku> 'ToDo: we currently do anything here, same as original BFS!"[04:32:15] <gotaku> I assume that should read "don't do anything here"?[04:36:01] <Sloar> it might just be as simple as making a hard drive image in vpc5 where you can set the size , format it with fat32, then convert it for a newer vpc and install beos then build haiku from within beos[04:36:20] <Sloar> beos is installing[04:38:01] <JonathanThompson> The rebels are attackinginging![04:39:39] <JonathanThompson> And the bats in the belfry are singing their song/eating small flying insects all night long/enjoying a meal of protein flying through the air/Not concerned with what we think or whether we care[04:39:49] * JonathanThompson has random verse go through his mind[04:42:14] <Sloar> set up be boot manager[04:43:02] <pyCube> ev'ry jumbled pile of person has a thinking part that wonders what the part that isn't thinking isn't thinking of[04:43:16] * pyCube has a random verse issue as well[04:43:23] <JonathanThompson> Who'd a thunk[04:43:49] <Sloar> awesome, i think i am the first person to successfully install beos in virtual pc 7 on a ppc mac[04:44:13] * soapdog is idle: building haiku[04:45:58] <JonathanThompson> I'm not thinking about what I'm not thinking I'm thinking about, but instead I'm thinking about what I'm thinking I'm thinking about, I think.[04:47:53] <JonathanThompson> Hey pyCube, did you read anything about the TRIPS processor that OS Snooze had a brief article linked to this week?[04:48:16] <JonathanThompson> The article itself is fairly weak, of course: follow the link posted by a poster to the PDF manual to get a much better understanding.[04:49:01] <JonathanThompson> Or I could send you a copy via BeShare, if you're so inclined to read it (serious geekfest of CPU description involved that's different from what we're accustomed to using).[04:56:23] <pyCube> i looked around at it.. not too much though[04:56:57] <JonathanThompson> Other than the processor prototype missing a few things I think it needs, it actually looks quite promising for a long-term advance.[04:58:24] <JonathanThompson> It appears to be reasonably sane to write compilers for it (which is something Itanium I imagine is a PITA for, as well as transmeta) while also having a fairly low overhead for computational logic for figuring out how to optimize things for OOE.[04:58:55] <JonathanThompson> Not to mention being able to do things a large block at once, which has distinct advantages for several reasons.[05:02:10] <pyCube> i know virtually nothing about cpu's[05:02:35] <JonathanThompson> Hmmm.... I can't judge how well you'll grok the PDF, then.[05:03:06] <JonathanThompson> It may not seem so incredibly foreign, because you don't have nearly as much background to compare it against compared to me :P[05:03:09] <pyCube> i wouldnt.. i'd open it.. scroll to the end, say, "uhh.. yeah", and close it[05:03:43] <JonathanThompson> I found the way things are done to be rather interesting, based on my past knowledge and experience.[05:03:50] <JonathanThompson> It's quite different in many important ways.[05:04:13] <pyCube> hw and low level stuff like kernels really is mostly uninteresting to me[05:04:59] <JonathanThompson> I guess I didn't know what to call it and couldn't find the information to find a college program for it, but I believe I would have gone for a computer engineering degree when I first went, if I had the chance.[05:05:13] <JonathanThompson> Though the amount of math involved is horrendous.[05:05:40] <JonathanThompson> At IU/Purdue/IUPUI the math requirements are one math class short of qualifying for a math minor.[05:06:11] <pyCube> see, i have been a philosophy major several times[05:06:23] <JonathanThompson> Not much math there :)[05:06:35] <pyCube> why not?[05:06:48] <pyCube> math is a very deep philosophical tpoic[05:07:02] <JonathanThompson> Well, less applied math in many cases.[05:07:30] <pyCube> yeah.. i am just not a very good geek.. i just kinda like computers[05:07:42] <JonathanThompson> Numerology I'd say is a philosophical relative to mathematics.[05:07:56] <pyCube> i am more into humanities[05:08:04] <pyCube> numerology is bs[05:08:06] <JonathanThompson> It has numbers, it has some semblance of math, but... it isn't very scientific :P[05:08:19] <pyCube> philosophy isnt bs[05:08:26] *** the_webers_inc has quit IRC[05:09:30] <pyCube> numerology is somebody trying to relieve somebody else of their money[05:10:11] <JonathanThompson> I'd place astrology in the same vein.[05:10:47] <pyCube> i was thinking math as philosophy more like, how we can use completely arbitrary ideas to predict reality[05:10:58] <pyCube> yes[05:12:21] <pyCube> and things like xeno's paradoxes[05:12:53] <JonathanThompson> The one where if you move forward half the remaining distance, you'll never get there?[05:13:09] <JonathanThompson> You'll get very close, but never QUITE get there.[05:13:11] <pyCube> the "in order to get from a to b, you must first pass the halfway point.. but to reach the half way point, you must first reach the quarter point..etc etc for infinity[05:13:18] <pyCube> " thing[05:13:27] <pyCube> yeah[05:13:28] <pyCube> heh[05:13:41] <JonathanThompson> That's very much something that's addressed in calculus, millenia after :P[05:13:56] <pyCube> not really[05:14:07] <pyCube> a formal work around maybe[05:14:22] <JonathanThompson> It can represent a way to say it concisely, but it also requires limits, which is where calculus shines.[05:14:35] <pyCube> yes[05:14:42] <JonathanThompson> And effectively, if you understand the problem, it approaches the final solution, but it's never quite there.[05:14:58] <pyCube> and that stuff is very much liek the magic line between when an oreo cookiie and a not-oreo cookie[05:15:02] <JonathanThompson> Which is how calculus is sort of a mathematical way to represent inexactness in an exact manner.[05:15:55] <pyCube> or like how we can call the area of a circle 1 unit.. but then never know the circumference.. and vice versa[05:15:57] <JonathanThompson> Not only represent, but calculate with a level of exactness inexact things.[05:16:12] *** the_webers_inc has joined #haiku[05:16:21] <JonathanThompson> It's all about being "close enough"[05:16:25] <pyCube> yes[05:16:38] <pyCube> at some point, close enough becomes "there already!!"[05:16:49] <pyCube> like i said, formal workarounds[05:17:12] <pyCube> a framework of cheats that allows us to discuss things[05:19:10] <pyCube> i got ito some interesting issues with teachers when i would get lazy with some measurement or calc.. and just call it "1 unit of thisness" instead of 2.34345435345 cm.. or whatever[05:19:34] <pyCube> "you cant do that!!" "why the heck not!?"[05:19:41] <JonathanThompson> It didn't fit in with their answer sheets :)[05:19:52] <pyCube> i would challenge them to prove me wrong[05:19:57] <pyCube> haha[05:20:15] * JonathanThompson thinks perhaps pyCube should confound them by creating a new branch of mathematics, the branch of calculating "this-ness"[05:20:42] <pyCube> i just thought it was neat that you could redefine the units of measure and always get an answer of 1[05:21:10] <JonathanThompson> Hmmm.... too easy to end up with mathematical nirvana :P[05:21:48] <pyCube> i understand the uselessness of that in practical terms..but its fascinating form a philosophical angle[05:21:55] <pyCube> from[05:24:02] <pyCube> i do remember that in highschool, teachers either really liked me, or really really hated me[05:24:07] <pyCube> heh[05:27:03] <soapdog> can someone help me here? I am trying to build haiku for the first time and I am not familiar with jam and where it looks for things, I am seeing lots of "... skipped for lack of libbe.so" and I know libbe.so is at /etc/develop/haiku-r1-gcc2-x86/lib.. is this skipping normal?[05:27:06] * soapdog is idle: BRB[05:27:40] <JonathanThompson> I don't recall seeing that message the last time (several months ago) I built Haiku.[05:27:53] <JonathanThompson> It may simply be that I walked away from my machine and didn't see it :P[05:28:16] <soapdog> if I close my eyes, will it work? :D[05:28:24] * JonathanThompson wonders if soapdog did a clean before a regular build[05:28:39][05:28:45] <soapdog> just fetched the code[05:29:05] <JonathanThompson> Have you built Haiku before?[05:29:08] <soapdog> no.[05:29:12] <soapdog> :-([05:29:27] <JonathanThompson> Did you follow all the instructions on getting the correct compiler, etc. and setting your machine up?[05:29:58] <soapdog> I was guided by BGA, we tested by building a simple hello world which worked fine...[05:30:27] <JonathanThompson> Perhaps there's a build error that needs to be corrected, and you were just lucky enough to run into it with your first try :P[05:30:35] <JonathanThompson> Then again, maybe that's expected.[05:30:45] <JonathanThompson> But I suspect not...[05:31:07] <soapdog> let us see what the jam will spit out...[05:31:24] <JonathanThompson> Yes, I'd expect it to error out if it really is a problem, sooner or later.[05:31:24][05:31:56] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[05:33:57] * JonathanThompson ponders what an IRC room would be like if it had 1 million active users on at once[05:34:00] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20897 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/slab/allocator.cpp: fixed the cache allocator's size_to_cache.[05:38:05] * kokito wonders if _hugo ever sleeps...[05:38:44] * JonathanThompson wonders if _hugo supports Starbucks in his local community, causing them to have them across the street from each other like where he lives[05:39:36] <_hugo> i wish there was a starbucks here[05:39:36] <_hugo> eheh[05:39:44] <_hugo> i have to make my own coffee :-P[05:40:13] <_hugo> im tired now, will sleep in a couple minutes[05:40:17] * JonathanThompson has a perfect view of a drive-thru starbucks right outside his apartment window, and another one is across the street from the apartment building[05:40:52] <JonathanThompson> And yes, people are there at 5-5:30 a.m. lining up in their cars: I can hear their orders quite often, with windows closed.[05:41:18] <_hugo> 5am, neat, almost there. eheh[05:41:21] <pyCube> i usually get a misto form starbucks[05:41:22] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20898 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/slab/Slab.cpp: don't need TRACE_SLAB by default now.[05:41:29] <_hugo> but im off for the day now[05:41:32] <_hugo> see you[05:41:54] <soapdog> see ya[05:42:05] <JonathanThompson> Bye _hugo[05:42:12] <soapdog> thanks for all the code[05:42:23] <pyCube> when its not busy, i'll ask them for a misto made from a french press of italian roast coffee[05:42:25] <pyCube> hehe[05:42:33] <kokito> night _hugo[05:44:35] <pyCube> i prefer tea usually, but a properly prepared good coffee is pretty damn good[05:45:02] <pyCube> what freaks me out is that the vast majority of their sells are essentially milkshakes..[05:46:01] <pyCube> see, if you call it a frappaccino and put some coffee powder in it, you can have a shake for breakfast..[05:46:12] <soapdog> no one never saw this "... skipped for lack of libbe.so" errors?[05:46:19] <pyCube> and get hip points to boot[05:46:39] *** the_webers_inc has quit IRC[05:46:47] <JonathanThompson> Once again, soapdog, perhaps most people don't watch the build that closely :P[05:47:06] <pyCube> never built haiku, myself[05:48:08] <umccullough> soapdog, "skipped for lack of .." usually means the build failed earlier[05:48:22] <umccullough> try with jam -q haiku-image instead to see where it fails and why[05:48:40] <soapdog> I thought so... will do that now, will do a jam clean first.[05:48:52] <umccullough> shouldn't have to - but go ahead :)[05:49:17] <JonathanThompson> I guess I'm not fully mentally awake, umccullough: that makes perfect sense, thinking about it :P[05:49:31] <soapdog> my connection here is pretty bad, having 30% packet loss, it took more than a day to checkout the svn...[05:49:38] <umccullough> JonathanThompson, the stupid thing about jam is that it merrily continues on its way by default unless you use -q[05:49:56] <umccullough> soapdog, a simple svn up should tell you if you're out of sync[05:49:58] <JonathanThompson> It's an eternal optimist :P[05:50:27] <JonathanThompson> "I'm missing something I was told that should be there, but I'll continue as if nothing happened, it's only fair!"[05:50:39][05:51:19] <soapdog> trying jam -q haiku-image[05:52:14] <umccullough> well, there was a broken build for a few revs in the last couple days[05:52:39] <umccullough> you might have gotten the code sometime at that point I suppose[05:53:25] <umccullough> also if you just want to see why a certain target fails you could do something like jam -q libbe.so[05:53:33] * JonathanThompson wonders how long Rome would have taken to build if it had been built with Jam[05:53:52] * umccullough suspects the workers would have gotten hungry and eaten the building supplies[05:54:14] * JonathanThompson suspects they would have eaten a lot of sand-wiches[05:55:03] * JonathanThompson beats umccullough over the head with a comedy club: it hurts so much, he laughs, or something like that[05:55:32] <soapdog> found the error ...failed GenSyscallInfos1 generated/objects/haiku/x86/common/tools/gensyscalls/gensyscalls_infos.cpp ...[05:57:20] <umccullough> you probably need gawk[05:57:32] <umccullough> it should tell you somewhere there why it failed[05:58:05] <umccullough> soapdog, what os are you building on?[05:58:17] <soapdog> zeta[05:58:20] <umccullough> oh[05:58:30] <umccullough> well crap then... not sure[05:58:36] <umccullough> are you using the gcc from bebits?[05:58:45] <soapdog> yes 2.95.3[05:58:54] <umccullough> um.. what version of 2.95.3?[05:58:55] <soapdog> BGA helped me setup it here[05:58:58] <umccullough> ok[05:59:01] <soapdog> We did it here as it is on his home[05:59:12] <soapdog> same links and files[05:59:25] <umccullough> just so there's no confusion - there are like 5 differen versions of 2.95.3 floating around[05:59:55] <umccullough> so what's the failure information from GenSyscallInfos1?[05:59:56] <soapdog> gcc version 2.95.3-beos-060710[06:00:01] <umccullough> yeah, that's the right version[06:01:07] <soapdog> no failure information, just say it failed and go cascading like some other thing fails because of that... and other... till haiku-image fails[06:01:16] <umccullough> interesting[06:01:17] <soapdog> I was out of date, svn update is fetching lots of things[06:02:00] <soapdog> I am pasting console output on your query not to spam things here.[06:02:22] <umccullough> you can paste it to an online paste bin or something :)[06:02:54] <soapdog> oops, sent by pvt...[06:03:02] <umccullough> http://rafb.net/paste/ is common[06:03:07] <umccullough> pm is fine too[06:03:57][06:04:08] <umccullough> soapdog, if you want to pm, you have to register your nick[06:04:34] <soapdog> I have it registered[06:04:46] <umccullough> looks like you haven't identified yet then...[06:04:54] <umccullough> use something like /ns identify <password>[06:05:24] <umccullough> that looks better :)[06:05:38] <umccullough> now you can pm ;)[06:06:08] <soapdog> http://rafb.net/p/N6pZXr97.html[06:06:17] <soapdog> just used that little gizmo[06:07:06] <umccullough> hm... yeah... something definitely wrong there[06:07:21] <soapdog> yeah :-/[06:07:34] <umccullough> you have target=haiku right?[06:07:45] <soapdog> yes[06:08:00] <umccullough> yeah, i'd guess you're either missing something, or out of sync[06:08:12] <soapdog> I will update and try again[06:08:14] <umccullough> i don't know what causes GenSyscallInfos1 to fail[06:08:22] <umccullough> i can take a look at the jam rule and see what it uses[06:08:28][06:08:43] <soapdog> let me update first, maybe I have a bad revision[06:13:10][06:13:50] * JonathanThompson fills soapdog's mind with random crap to fill his dreams[06:13:59] <JonathanThompson> PI is not blueberry![06:15:25] *** gotaku has quit IRC[06:24:17] <CHodapp> 3.14159265358979323864ish![06:24:58] <JonathanThompson> If you calculate 22/7, you'd find that's a surprisingly close approximation.[06:25:34] *** soapdog has quit IRC[06:25:53] <JonathanThompson> I used that back in the days of the Apple 2 and AppleSoft BASIC because 1. it didn't have floating point hardware 2. It didn't do more than 32 bit floats 3. It also didn't have a precomputed version of PI and 4. it was easy to remember :P[06:26:08] <geist> 10 PRINT "STFU"[06:26:13] <geist> 20 GOTO 10[06:26:20] <geist> SAVE HELLO[06:26:24] <geist> PR#6[06:26:32] <JonathanThompson> A friendly liitle program :P[06:28:04] <geist> (22 / 7) - pi = 0.00126448927[06:28:09] <geist> so yeah, pretty close[06:28:30] <JonathanThompson> For Apple 2 graphics, the difference wasn't noticeable.[06:28:41] <geist> HGR2[06:28:48] <JonathanThompson> Even then, yes.[06:29:39] <geist> hmm, what was the next closest after 22/7?[06:29:47] <geist> it was 200something / 70something[06:30:08] <JonathanThompson> Sure, but 22/7 was very easy to remember.[06:31:28] <geist> 223/71 it seems[06:31:51] <geist> 355/113[06:32:36] <geist> ah that's nice. real pi is between 223/71 and 22/7, so you can use those as the bounds[06:32:51] <geist> Archimedes found that out[06:33:01] <geist> he was a pretty smart dude[06:33:10] <JonathanThompson> Indeed, and apparently had a lot of time available.[06:34:01] * JonathanThompson wonders how many roman mathematicians there were that used roman numerals[06:36:59] <geist> i dont think they were particularly known for their math[06:37:13] <JonathanThompson> And yet, look at all they managed to build.[06:37:36] <geist> well of course, the aliens did most of the work[06:37:37] <geist> duh.[06:37:45] <JonathanThompson> The worst thing with the fall of Rome is most of the world of the time fell back to not having working sewer systems and running watner.[06:38:14] * JonathanThompson isn't certain if geist is referring to aliens from another planet or aliens to Rome from Earth...[06:38:30] <geist> from the 8th dimension[06:46:05] *** nonesuch has joined #haiku[06:49:38] *** knoedel has joined #haiku[06:50:39] *** knoedel has quit IRC[06:58:07] *** JonathanThompson has quit IRC[07:03:47] <pyCube> uh oh.. my daughters have discovered the little shocker thingy you get from discarded electric lighters[07:04:20] <pyCube> napping is now dangerous[07:04:53] <Grackle> haha[07:19:35] *** pyCube has quit IRC[07:35:46] *** gravy_afk is now known as gravy[07:36:17] *** PulkoMandy has joined #haiku[07:52:11] *** nonesuch has quit IRC[07:57:36] <stargater>[08:00:24] <kokito>[08:05:26] <stargater> i want coffee[08:05:47] <stargater> i need[08:08:19] <stargater> cu later[08:08:40] *** stargater has quit IRC[08:12:34] *** absabs has quit IRC[08:45:31] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[08:45:37] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[08:54:51] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[08:55:31] <Begasus> morning peeps[09:05:04] *** Begasus is now known as Begasus_bbl[09:09:06] *** pyCube has joined #haiku[09:20:14] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[09:21:03] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20899 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/file_systems/bfs/ (Index.cpp Inode.cpp Volume.cpp kernel_interface.cpp): Added very basic volume initialization support.[09:22:24] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20900 /haiku/trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Added volume initialization support.[09:25:03] *** Sloar has quit IRC[09:25:14] *** absabs has joined #haiku[09:32:25] *** Jixt has quit IRC[09:41:10] *** ekdahl has joined #haiku[09:50:18] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[09:59:07] *** JamesB192 has joined #haiku[09:59:30] *** ChrisHJW has joined #haiku[10:06:16] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[10:06:58] *** Kernel86 has quit IRC[10:08:12] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[10:18:40] *** DraX has joined #haiku[10:18:56] <DraX> anyone have experience with haiku in qemu?[10:19:37] <DraX> for me it crashes qemu[10:19:46] <CHodapp> never tired in QEMU[10:19:55] *** Begasus_bbl is now known as Begasus[10:21:38] <DraX> i'll go tell the qemu people since it's much more likely their problem[10:21:49] <DraX> but was just wondering if anyone had had a similar problem before i went and did that[10:22:03] <Jixt> hi Begasus[10:22:12] <Begasus> hi Jixt![10:22:15] <Begasus> ;)[10:22:24] <Jixt> question[10:22:46] <Jixt> what program do you use to get data from your iPod on BeOs?[10:23:21] <Begasus> I'm testing Haiku native when running it DraX ;)[10:23:32] <Begasus> BePodder? ;)-[10:24:44] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[10:24:49] <Jixt> BePodder? hmm[10:26:00] <Begasus> but that's in zeta[10:26:04] <Begasus> moin Ingenu[10:26:14] <Begasus> not sure if it works in R5[10:27:12] <Jixt> Isn't that a program for podcasts?[10:28:11] *** ith|zzzz is now known as Ithamar[10:28:19] <Begasus> err ...[10:28:22] <Begasus> eeps ;)[10:28:23] <kr1stof> Yes[10:28:34] <kr1stof> And it works fine[10:28:44] <Begasus> PodSync[10:28:49] <Begasus> that was the one I ment ;)[10:28:58] <Begasus> yeah great rss reader too ;)[10:29:14] <Begasus> g'morgen Ithamar ! ;)[10:29:21] <Ithamar> moguh ;)[10:29:33] <Ithamar> kokito: I finally had a chance to disagree with you :P[10:29:42] <Begasus> hehe[10:29:47] <Begasus> go for it ![10:30:06] <kokito> hey Ithamar! on what do we disagree?[10:30:08] <Ithamar> Replied to a mail from kokito on the haiku list :)[10:30:22] <Ithamar> WalterCon should stay in the USA :)[10:31:06] <Ithamar> My suggestion is that we focus on the content we want to have @ WalterCon/BeGeistert first...[10:31:27] <Ithamar> If we can decide that before being on the event, we can actually share preparations between both events[10:31:38] *** Ball000_ZZzzz is now known as Ball000[10:31:41] <Ithamar> and cover as much of the world as possible :)[10:32:00] *** Euver has joined #haiku[10:34:53] <kokito> Ithamar, there are not enough (human and financial) resources to have two events.[10:35:41] *** mazon is now known as Mazon[10:36:29] <Ithamar> If finances is a problem for WalterCon, moving it to Europe wouldn't help much for the US guys I guess....[10:36:33] <kokito> plus I am of the idea (as I mentioned in my email to the list) that WC needs to change; I don't think BG is the ideal format for WC[10:37:06] <Ithamar> BeGeistert has any format the visitors want to throw on it.... If we want more Haiku focused sessions, it is a matter of making them[10:37:19] <kokito> Ithamar, most of the devs are in Europe. It is much easier (on the wallet too) to do it on that side of the pond.[10:37:44] *** stargater has joined #haiku[10:37:46] <stargater> moin[10:38:48] <kokito> anyway, Ithamar, it's not like I decide what WC should be or where it should be held. I just gave what I think is the best option for Haiku. :)[10:38:51] <Ithamar> kokito: Then lets try a WalterCon as a subset of BeGeistert.... Give the BG team enough timeslots with Haiku material to fill a day or so[10:39:01] <Ithamar> kokito: It is good to discuss :D[10:39:15] * Ithamar is not trying to fight...[10:39:23] <kokito> Ithamar, me neither :)[10:39:24] <geist> the linux epo thing sounds neat though[10:39:29] <kokito> don't worry my friend[10:39:41] <kokito> geist, wanna join?[10:40:24] <geist> well...[10:40:59] <kokito> geist, I would lie if I told you that I did ot think about you for Linux World SF :)[10:41:38] <geist> yeah but i'm not sure i can deal with people all day, and i'm not the best advocate for haiku[10:42:14] <kokito> geist, how about giving a talk about the NewOS kernel?[10:42:23] <geist> anyhoo, gotta sleep now. super tired. can talka bout it tomorow maybe[10:42:34] <kokito> okidoki. good night![10:42:45] <Ithamar> g'night geist![10:43:23] <Ithamar> anyhow, I think for something like WC/BG we should focus on content first, location 2nd....[10:43:58] <kokito> Ithamar, I have a different view of what WC should be, and it does not match the BG model. Furthermore, I think Haiku needs to build it's own identity, so a conference separate from BG would be preferred.[10:44:17] <stargater> heya Ithamar :-)[10:44:24] <kokito> Ithamar, absolutely: content is key :)[10:44:29] <Ithamar> hey stargater :)[10:45:05] <Ithamar> my feeling is that once ppl start being involved through the content, the location/organsiation will sort itself out (by the ppl getting involved)[10:45:08] <Begasus> Jixt did you put the R5 version online yesterday?[10:45:11] <kokito> Ithamar, but you content is influenced by your geography.[10:45:20] <Begasus> 'lo stargater[10:45:52] <Ithamar> kokito: Yup, so find out the geography by asking for wanted content, and who's willing to provide content....[10:46:00] <kokito> nothing sorts out itself, Ithamar. putting together a succesful conference requires a lot of thought and a lot of work.[10:46:18] <Ithamar> I meant choice of location...[10:46:30] <Ithamar> agreed on that kokito[10:46:47] <kokito> Ithamar, sure. and given the high concentration of core devs in Europe, your the choice is already made for you :)[10:47:34] <kokito> Ithamar, do you know how many Haiku devs there are in the US that regularly commit code?[10:47:44] <Begasus> he's not likely to give in Ithamar :P[10:47:51] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[10:48:04] <Ithamar> giving presentations is different from writing code kokito, I know that myself :P[10:48:17] <emitrax> good morning[10:48:28] <Begasus> g'morning emitrax[10:48:55] <Ithamar> kokito: I would love to see you do a presentation on Haiku, and you've not comitted too much to SVN :P[10:48:59] <Ithamar> moin emitrax[10:49:16] <Ithamar> Begasus: heh, me neither :D[10:49:23] <Begasus> hehe[10:49:54] <Ithamar> kokito; Assuming mainly the core devs can give presentations is a wrong assumption. IMHO[10:50:04] <pyCube> hmm.. i really do like making nice xmlrpc services[10:50:19] * pyCube random thoughts[10:50:21] <Begasus> 'lo pyCube[10:50:29] <kokito> Ithamar, developers want to talk to the core devs that are intimate with the code; many people could give a presentation about Haiku, but only the presence of the core devs will give WC real value[10:50:44] <pyCube> hi Begasus[10:50:58] <Begasus> when coders start doing speeches the tech talks starts ;)[10:51:34] <kokito> Ithamar, I am not assuming that nobody else but the core devs can give presentations. I am saying that presentations by the core devs with name recognition have much more value.[10:51:44] *** MauriceK has joined #haiku[10:51:47] <Ithamar> agreed on that.[10:51:53] * Ithamar pets MauriceK[10:51:56] *** MrRagga has joined #haiku[10:52:00] <Ithamar> hey MauriceK![10:52:03] <MauriceK> hey Ithamar[10:52:13] <MauriceK> saw you yesterday on our channel, but we needed to go shopping...[10:52:21] <Ithamar> no probs ;)[10:52:22] <MauriceK> and then julun's car broke...[10:52:25] <kokito> hey MauriceK[10:52:26] <Ithamar> ouch![10:52:31] <MauriceK> hey kokito[10:52:37] <kokito> long time no see :)[10:52:44] <MauriceK> seems like I know many more people here than usually :)[10:52:46] <Begasus> 'lo MauriceK[10:52:56] <MauriceK> kokito: so true... everythings fine on your side?[10:53:01] <Begasus> the dino's are in tha house ;)[10:53:02] <MauriceK> hi Begasus[10:53:04] <MauriceK> haha[10:53:17] <kokito> MauriceK, still alive and kicking :)[10:53:31] <MauriceK> Ithamar: wouldn't be so hard, if he hadn't bought this new car 2 months ago ;)[10:53:32] <Ithamar> kicking me, to be precise :P[10:53:42] <MauriceK> haha[10:53:45] <Begasus> hehe[10:54:05] <Ithamar> ouch MauriceK, that sucks....[10:54:16] <MauriceK> so Ithamar, what's the reason to see you online? I mean, it's not that regular ;)[10:54:42] * Ithamar is hacking on his HDA driver....[10:54:52] <MauriceK> oh I see :)[10:55:11] * MauriceK still has his AC97 notebook... and well... Windows seems to support it quiet well ;)[10:55:20] <Ithamar> lol[10:55:22] <MauriceK> am I allowed to say that here? :)[10:55:48] <MauriceK> so how's hda coming along?[10:55:59] <MauriceK> last update was from DasJott, which is quiet some time ago[10:58:27] <Ithamar> well, I've now got more hardware to test it on...[10:58:42] <Ithamar> and it is from-scratch, no code reuse from the yT one...[10:58:53] <Ithamar> but it is going ok, had the first sounds out of the speaker[10:59:10] <Ithamar> (on 1 out of 3 machines at least)[11:00:01] <MauriceK> neat[11:02:15] <Begasus> breakfast ..[11:02:18] <Begasus> bbl[11:02:33] *** Begasus is now known as Begasus_bbl[11:03:54] *** Kernel86 has joined #Haiku[11:06:30] *** JamesB192 has quit IRC[11:07:50] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[11:09:18] <_hugo> hmmm--- cereal[11:10:41] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[11:13:18] <kokito> Ithamar, response sent to the list[11:13:25] <kokito> good morning _hugo[11:13:32] <_hugo> hey kokito[11:13:53] <Ithamar> kokito: thanks ; I'll see it tonight, as I'm on digest :([11:15:07] <kokito> well, time to get some sleep now. good night folks.[11:15:14] *** kokito has quit IRC[11:19:01] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[11:21:31] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[11:23:50] *** mats has joined #haiku[11:24:06] *** Kernel86 has quit IRC[11:30:30] <Jixt> what is better? GPL or LGPL?[11:30:41] <MauriceK> bsd ;)[11:30:58] <Jixt> :p[11:31:31] <stargater> GPL v2 is free as free[11:31:40] <Ithamar> LGPL means closed-source apps can link to your code[11:31:56] <stargater> BSD/MIT is free[11:31:59] <Ithamar> GPL means anything that uses/links to it needs to be GPL too[11:32:36] <Ithamar> (LGPL _does_ require changes made to be opened, but not the rest of the code that uses it)[11:32:37] <Jixt> ok, so if I have an application with an MIT license, I can't use a lib that is under LGPL[11:32:46] <Ithamar> yup indeed[11:32:51] <Ithamar> wait[11:32:55] <Ithamar> you can[11:33:09] <Ithamar> not a lib that's GPL, but you can use a LGPL lib[11:33:10] <stargater> Jixt: make BSD/MIT[11:33:34] <Ithamar> LGPL can be linked to anything, GPL only to GPL[11:34:10] <Jixt> ok, nice to know[11:34:49] <Ithamar> stargater: I think he's not choosing a license for his own work, but looking at existing libraries and their licenses[11:35:02] <Jixt> PhotoGrabber is MIT stargater[11:35:04] <stargater> ah ok[11:35:12] <stargater> nice[11:35:13] <Jixt> indeed Ithamar[11:35:24] *** ekdahl has left #haiku[11:35:41] <Jixt> Sir Mik and I want to make a plugin for the IPod[11:36:09] <Jixt> so, you would be able to get the pictures from the iPod with PhotoGrabber[11:36:17] <Ithamar> ah neato![11:36:19] <Jixt> I was looking for an existing lib[11:36:34] <Jixt> and found libgpod[11:36:47] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[11:37:01] <Jixt> and it is under the LGPL[11:37:21] *** tombhadAC has quit IRC[11:37:38] <stargater> photo handy[11:37:38] <Jixt> and that is why I was thinking if I could use the lib ;-)[11:38:23] <Ithamar> so basicly, yes :D[11:38:34] <stargater> BeMobile cant get photos from handy[11:39:21] <Ithamar> file a bug :D[11:39:32] * Ithamar hides[11:39:35] <Jixt> lol[11:50:39] *** slaad has joined #haiku[11:51:58] <Ithamar> slaad![11:52:09] <slaad> Ithamar![11:52:17] <Ithamar> what are you up to these days??[11:52:22] *** Begasus_bbl is now known as Begasus[11:52:23] <Begasus> re[11:52:44] * Ithamar wonders what cool tool slaad is hacking today ;)[11:52:51] <Begasus> Jixt ... while you're at it .. make the plugin so that you can upload pictures to the iPod to then ;)[11:52:57] <Begasus> 'lo slaad ;)[11:52:58] <slaad> None, lately :([11:53:03] <slaad> Girlfriend + No BeOS machine = No codey.[11:53:09] <Ithamar> LOL[11:53:09] <slaad> Begasus :)[11:53:11] <Begasus> hehe[11:53:18] <slaad> Drivers for X1950, Plz, kthxbai.[11:53:35] <Ithamar> ouch[11:53:53] * Ithamar pets VESA :P[11:53:54] *** emitrax has quit IRC[11:54:16] <slaad> Doesn't seem to do VESA.[11:54:25] <Jixt> lol Begasus, maybe that would be a bad idea ;-)[11:54:28] <slaad> Regardless of the mode I tell it to do, it does 800x600 x greyscale.[11:54:47] <slaad> If it were colour VESA I could handle it.[11:54:49] <Ithamar> whooha[11:54:55] <DraX> xorg can't even do X1xxx :/[11:55:05] <slaad> Really?[11:55:13] <DraX> we're talking ati right?[11:55:14] <slaad> Interesting, as ATI still support Alt.OS.[11:55:27] <DraX> let me qualify a bit[11:55:28] <DraX> vesa works[11:55:31] <DraX> and fglrx works[11:55:35] <DraX> if you're on linux[11:55:54] <DraX> but there isn't a reverse engineered driver for it at al[11:55:57] <Ithamar> slaad, that's a desktop box?[11:56:02] <slaad> Yeah.[11:56:39] <Begasus> doesnt R5 handle ifndef?[11:56:46] <Ithamar> any chance of capturing a syslog over serial of trying to switch to VESA? By pressing F1 on the boot screen?[11:57:33] <slaad> Err.... not really.[11:57:41] <Ithamar> ok, no worries[11:57:43] <slaad> If you tell me what to look for I can try and give you the output.[11:57:46] <stargater> why not Begasus #ifndef is c++[11:58:19] <Begasus> trying to compile Tracker Grep G with the adjusted code so it compiles in R5 and in ZETA[11:58:20] <Ithamar> slaad: I suspect zbeos will spit out some kind of error about the VESA mode switching (over serial)[11:58:33] <Begasus> if I leave it to ifdef it's ok in R5[11:58:48] <Begasus> but then the locale header isn't called for in Zeta[11:59:19] <Ithamar> what are you #ifdef-ing on Begasus?[11:59:48] <stargater> Begasus: you develop in c++ß[11:59:49] <Begasus> zeta Ithamar[11:59:52] <stargater> ?[12:00:01] <Begasus> #ifndef __ZETA__[12:00:02] <Begasus> #include <locale/Locale.h>[12:00:03] <Begasus> #else[12:00:03] <Begasus> #define _T(x) x[12:00:04] <Begasus> #endif[12:00:10] <Begasus> a try a bit stargater ;)[12:00:26] <Begasus> but I let the main dev to the hard work ;)[12:00:31] <stargater> Begasus: this is for zeta not r5[12:00:48] <Ithamar> If you look at /boot/headers/be/BeBuild.h there should be several ZETA specific defines there[12:00:49] <Begasus> stargater the point is that it uses the same makefile[12:00:52] <stargater> this is for the localkit[12:00:55] <Ithamar> Not sure that __ZETA__ is defined....[12:01:01] * Ithamar dives deep in his memories....[12:01:12] <Begasus> yep stargater .... so R5 should skip the call for the header there[12:01:27] <Begasus> if I change that into #ifdef __ZETA__ it works in R5[12:01:41] <stargater> Begasus: intresting is the what the gcc says[12:02:06] <Begasus> that it can't find the locale header in R5 when using ifndef[12:02:41] <stargater> Begasus: i thin under r5 mast you set a compiler flag[12:03:07] <stargater> ed: ./configure target=beos[12:03:13] <stargater> make, etc[12:03:33] *** tombhadAC has joined #haiku[12:03:36] <Begasus> #Detect Zeta[12:03:36] <Begasus> ifeq ($(wildcard /boot/beos/system/lib/libzeta.so), )[12:03:37] <Begasus> # BeOS[12:03:37] <Begasus> else[12:03:38] <Begasus> #Zeta[12:03:39] <Begasus> DEFINES += ZETA[12:03:39] <Begasus> endif[12:03:52] <Begasus> that should define it ...[12:04:02] <Begasus> that's in the makefile[12:04:24] <Ithamar> that defines ZETA, not __ZETA__[12:04:38] <stargater> :-)[12:04:56] <stargater> __ZETA__ is a Namespace i think[12:05:05] <Begasus> already try'd #ifndef ZETA without luck ..[12:05:12] *** bobwhoops has quit IRC[12:05:23] *** bobwhoops has joined #haiku[12:05:43] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[12:05:44] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[12:06:10] <Ithamar> hmmm maybe mmu_man remembers the preproc symbol to check for ZETA....[12:06:11] <Begasus> plop[12:06:21] <Begasus> ;)[12:06:22] <stargater> Begasus: what will you do `?[12:06:27] <mmu_man> __ZETA__ ? :p[12:06:28] <Begasus> just the man ;)[12:06:33] <mmu_man> B_ZETA_VERSION should do as well[12:06:42] <mmu_man> from BeBuild.h[12:07:09] <Begasus> mmu_man ... trying to compile the Tracker Grep source in R5 with the changes made to let it compile with the locale header in ZETA[12:07:29] <Begasus> strange thing is that he does the trick with ifdef and not with ifndef[12:08:00] <mmu_man> #if __ZETA__ != 1[12:08:03] <mmu_man> maybe ?[12:08:10] <mmu_man> that's odd though[12:08:50] <Jixt> ok, have to go[12:08:56] <Jixt> cu l8er[12:09:00] <Begasus> cu Jixt[12:09:01] <stargater> oj Jixt[12:09:16] <Begasus> #ifndef __ZETA__[12:09:19] <Begasus> etc[12:09:26] <Begasus> that works in ZETA mmu_man[12:09:31] <Begasus> but not in R5[12:09:40] <Begasus> if I change that to ifdef it works in R5[12:09:52] *** Jixt has quit IRC[12:10:07] <stargater> Begasus: r5 have no localkit[12:10:17] <Begasus> that's the point stargater[12:10:34] <Begasus> it should skip the call for the locale header then[12:10:52] <stargater> when you tray ifdef, then define you not the path to localkit lib an version from a os[12:11:02] <stargater> ifndef is not ifdef[12:11:33] <Begasus> gathered that ;)[12:11:46] <stargater> ifdef mynameistolong lname;[12:13:32] *** Euver has quit IRC[12:13:55] * Ithamar wonders why Intel made HDA so complex....[12:14:10] <mmu_man> to avoid being copied ? :)[12:15:19] <Ithamar> lol[12:15:49] *** dr_evil has joined #haiku[12:15:58] <Ithamar> hey dr_evil[12:16:14] <Ithamar> had a good party yesterday? ;)[12:16:50] <dr_evil> yes, we did a barbecue[12:16:57] <Begasus> moin[12:19:33] *** siarzhuk has joined #haiku[12:19:36] <stargater> cu later[12:19:58] <Ithamar> dr_evil, nice, is good weather for that ;)[12:20:08] *** stargater has quit IRC[12:29:02] <dr_evil> siarzhuk your last logfiles show that the hotplug events are both detected now, and the mouse devices are published by the driver. when input_server bug #155 is fixed, it should work[12:30:11] <dr_evil> the workaround to prevent waiting 4 seconds with the non working port 0 also works, so there is nothing problematic visible in the driver output anymore[12:30:26] <dr_evil> do you still have 20 seconds delay before the mouse/keyboard works?[12:30:31] <siarzhuk> yes. have seen that events from "different mouses" were logged - mosue 2 and mouse 3... so looks like the problem somewehere esle[12:31:59] <siarzhuk> mouse become responcible just after traker windows are opened, but keyboards still wait for something :-)[12:32:06] <dr_evil> search for "hot plugin of input/mouse/ps2/1" in the logfile, and you will see[12:32:07] <siarzhuk> keyboards[12:32:22] <siarzhuk> keyboarD (inbound only!) :-)[12:33:15] <dr_evil> internal is a better word[12:34:29] <siarzhuk> btw I have teried with disabled touchpad - nothing changed with external mouse[12:34:34] *** mmadia_ has quit IRC[12:34:34] <siarzhuk> tried[12:34:45] <siarzhuk> disabled in BIOS[12:34:47] <dr_evil> so the external keybaord works before the internal does?[12:35:09] <siarzhuk> yes. external doesn'T wait[12:35:46] <dr_evil> well, then it should be a keybaord controller issue. because they are both presented to the driver a a single device by the keyboard controller[12:37:27] <siarzhuk> I have the same delay with this hardware under FreeBSD too. Windows boot too long that this can be masqueraded by long boot time :-D[12:37:42] <Ithamar> lol[12:38:31] <dr_evil> siarzhuk well that information should have been provided yesterday, but thanks anyway[12:39:10] <dr_evil> i think we are done with bug #1185 we now need to fix #155 for hotplug to get working[12:39:43] <mmu_man> gtg[12:39:44] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[12:39:53] <siarzhuk> I like testing reboots! :-D hehe[12:39:58] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dr_evil[13:03:28] *** ChrisHJW has quit IRC[13:13:54] *** arachnist has joined #haiku[13:14:03] <arachnist> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~fms27/door/haiku.pdf <| lol :>[13:14:30] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[13:16:59] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[13:20:51] *** oco has joined #haiku[13:22:59] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[13:34:48] *** Dr_Evil has joined #haiku[13:34:49] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Dr_Evil[13:35:24] <Dr_Evil> re[13:39:14] *** petterhj has quit IRC[13:39:20] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[13:45:53] <Ithamar> Dr_Evil: when talking about audio card input/outs, does HP Out say anything to you?[13:46:01] * Ithamar is no audio wiz...[13:50:46] *** siarzhuk has quit IRC[13:51:12] *** petterhj- has joined #haiku[13:51:13] *** petterhj has quit IRC[13:55:30] <Begasus> yesssssss ... working now ;)[13:55:42] <Begasus> compiling in Zeta and R5 :D[13:55:58] <Begasus> should mail krilla the source back now ;)[13:56:12] <Dr_Evil> HP = headphones Ithamar[13:57:37] <Ithamar> lol[13:57:38] <Ithamar> ofcourse[13:57:40] <Ithamar> thx :)[13:57:50] * Ithamar has been looking at C code too long :P[14:04:52] *** petterhj- has quit IRC[14:11:12] <kr1stof> Did you run out of Cola Ithamar? ;-)[14:14:26] *** TLF has joined #haiku[14:15:24] *** rcjsuen_ has joined #haiku[14:15:51] <Ithamar> kr1stof: almost :([14:16:55] <Begasus> shifting over to beer is not so good in this weather ;)[14:17:06] <Begasus> certanly not if you're coding ;)[14:17:11] <kr1stof> I started with with a white burgundy today. Anyone want to join me? ;-)[14:17:28] <Begasus> burgundy?[14:17:38] * Begasus keeps it to simple beer ;)[14:17:58] <Begasus> so mailed krille the changes back ...[14:18:02] <Ithamar> kr1stof: would do, if I had this driver working on all my machines :([14:18:20] <Begasus> if he updates it on BeBits you can compile in R5 and Zeta now :D[14:18:38] <Ithamar> nice Beg[14:18:39] <Ithamar> nice Begasus[14:19:00] <Begasus> well it's more of a learning experience for me Ithamar but thnx ;)[14:19:49] <Begasus> we need to simplefy the source for PhotoGrabber now ... so now I have a bit more insight on how to run a check on ZETA or R5[14:19:59] <Begasus> and in that way set the target os[14:20:00] *** Pulko_Mandy has joined #haiku[14:20:08] <Ithamar> ah neat[14:20:24] <Ithamar> (Haiku PhotoGrabber, here we come :P)[14:20:35] <Begasus> there is already one ;)[14:20:50] <Begasus> I think Jixt was able to compile the R5 one[14:20:51] <Ithamar> oh nice[14:20:59] <Begasus> and use it with the haiku usb stack[14:21:46] * Begasus poors himselve a nice cold one now ....[14:22:26] *** hUMUNGUs has joined #haiku[14:27:09] <Ithamar> geniet er van Begasus :)[14:27:26] <Begasus> die zal smaken Ithamar .... ;-)[14:27:32] <Ithamar> Yay! All my audio outputs/inputs show in the Media Prefs :)))[14:27:41] <Begasus> w00t !![14:27:51] <Ithamar> doesn't work yet, but they show up :D[14:27:54] <Begasus> now the sound ;)[14:27:58] <Ithamar> lol[14:28:31] * Begasus starts hacking the makefile for PhotoGrabber ;)[14:31:13] <Begasus> w00t .. that worked ;)[14:32:25] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[14:35:21] *** PulkoMandy has quit IRC[14:35:21] *** siarzhuk has joined #haiku[14:39:47] <Dr_Evil> puhh, compiling current version done, going to test a bit[14:39:52] *** Dr_Evil has quit IRC[14:42:32] *** ChrisHJW has joined #haiku[14:43:04] *** slaad has quit IRC[15:05:01] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[15:07:00] *** siarzhuk has quit IRC[15:09:11] *** hUMUNGUs has quit IRC[15:11:37] *** Ithamar has quit IRC[15:11:48] *** petterhj has quit IRC[15:11:55] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20901 /haiku/trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): minimal cleanups[15:12:02] *** Andrevs has quit IRC[15:13:54] *** wildur has quit IRC[15:15:09] *** Dr_Evil has joined #haiku[15:15:40] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Dr_Evil[15:16:34] <Dr_Evil> http://pastebin.ca/464333 stupid hardware![15:17:25] *** arikato has quit IRC[15:18:14] *** arikato has joined #haiku[15:18:41] <Dr_Evil> http://pastebin.ca/raw/464333 better readable[15:32:29] *** kr1stof has left #haiku[15:33:53] *** arikato has quit IRC[15:34:49] *** arikato has joined #haiku[15:45:46] *** rcjsuen__ has joined #haiku[15:52:46] *** Sloar has joined #haiku[15:53:05] <Begasus> now where is Jixt when you need him ;)[15:53:58] <Begasus> compiling PhotoGrabber in ZETA and R5 now with the same makefile ... ;)[15:54:17] <Begasus> I think I need the Haiku usb lib's in R5 now ...[16:02:46] *** rcjsuen_ has quit IRC[16:10:42] *** Razec has joined #haiku[16:10:45] <Razec> hi[16:11:06] <Razec> where make download haiku? *.iso?[16:12:57] <MrSun> try the homepage?[16:13:57] <Razec>[16:13:57] <Razec> no I am finding[16:14:09] <Razec> I don`t finding..[16:14:10] <MrSun> http://haiku-os.org/downloads[16:14:32] <Razec> thx, you is using?[16:15:07] <MrSun> using ?[16:15:48] <Razec>[16:15:52] <Razec> using the new system[16:15:57] <Razec> haiku????[16:16:53] <MrSun> not tried it in a long time[16:17:41] <Razec> MrSun,[16:17:42] <Razec> based in which language?[16:17:47] *** oco has quit IRC[16:18:11] <Razec> java, C[16:18:13] <Razec> python?[16:18:44] <Ingenu> C++[16:20:26] <Razec> cool[16:21:09] <MrSun> you think someone would write an os in java or python ? :P[16:21:44] <Begasus> solaris is partly written in java afaik[16:23:03] *** urnenfeld has joined #haiku[16:23:19] *** urnenfeld has left #haiku[16:23:49] <Begasus> short visite ... ;)[16:25:47] <MauriceK> Begasus: spanish people are always spontanous[16:25:56] <MauriceK> i'll join... ah i'll leave...[16:25:57] <MauriceK> :)[16:26:00] <Begasus> hehe[16:26:24] <Begasus> MauriceK ... just compiled PhotoGrabber over at R5 with the same makefile that I used in ZETA ;)[16:26:32] <Begasus> getting the hang of it :))[16:26:39] <MauriceK> :)[16:27:09] <Begasus> it's always nice if something works ...[16:27:13] *** Dr_Evil has quit IRC[16:27:27] <Begasus> brings one back to the old days when I first used linux :p[16:27:28] <Begasus> hhe[16:27:29] <MauriceK> so true, Begasus...[16:27:30] <MauriceK> haha[16:28:07] <Begasus> although having a UI to do stuff in is a bit easier then trying to get startx to work in the old days :p[16:29:54] <Begasus> if Jixt is ok with it the makefiles probly go into the repo for PG ;)[16:31:55] <MauriceK> nice[16:40:37] *** TLF has quit IRC[17:13:25] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20902 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/slab/ (Slab.cpp allocator.cpp): cache allocator: for allocations > 8k create areas, and delete them on free.[17:13:31] *** kokito has joined #haiku[17:16:07] <_hugo> hey kokito[17:16:50] <kokito> hey _hugo, good morning[17:17:13] * kokito wonders why he gets up at 7:30 on a Sunday morning...[17:17:20] <_hugo> good question :-)[17:17:33] <Begasus> morning kokito ;)[17:17:38] <Begasus> hi _hugo[17:17:46] <kokito> must be getting really old...[17:17:49] <kokito> hey Begasus[17:18:02] <_hugo> hey Begasus[17:20:34] *** chandler has left #haiku[17:20:37] *** chandler has joined #haiku[17:27:36] *** Sil2100 has joined #haiku[17:27:57] <Sil2100> Hi everyone[17:28:43] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20903 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/slab/allocator.cpp: cache allocator: keep allocation waste statistics. added debugger command 'show_waste'.[17:30:20] *** Thom_Holwerda has joined #haiku[17:33:06] <Begasus> hi Sil2100 Thom_Holwerda[17:33:37] <kokito> hi Sil2100 & Thom_Holwerda[17:34:00] <Thom_Holwerda> noon all[17:34:00] <Begasus> :p[17:34:40] <Sil2100> ^^[17:35:01] *** ekdahl has joined #haiku[17:35:14] *** the_webers_inc has joined #haiku[17:37:26] *** hUMUNGUs has joined #haiku[17:39:49] *** gotaku has joined #haiku[17:44:07] <Sloar> word on the street is that there was a ppc version of dano, anyone know of it?[17:44:27] <Thom_Holwerda> its not a word[17:44:31] <Thom_Holwerda> its true.[17:44:55] <Thom_Holwerda> it lacks some of the features of the x86 version though[17:45:23] <Sloar> did it support newer powerpc processors?[17:46:55] <Thom_Holwerda> good question.[17:47:00] <Thom_Holwerda> dano leaked in like 2002 right?[17:47:05] <Thom_Holwerda> i guess it must, then[17:47:15] <Sloar> not sure, wish i knew[17:47:55] <Thom_Holwerda> http://www.osnews.com/story.php/552/More-Information-on-the-BeOS-Dano-Version[17:47:58] <Thom_Holwerda> january 2002[17:49:24] <Sloar> ok so theres a chance of the g3/g4 working[17:53:03] *** echelog has joined #haiku[17:54:26] *** Mazon is now known as mazon[17:54:59] <Thom_Holwerda> Sloar:[17:55:00] <Thom_Holwerda> http://wiki.bebits.com/page/BeOsReleases[17:55:15] <Thom_Holwerda> interstingly, that page says there is no pc version[17:55:15] <Thom_Holwerda> ppc*[17:55:51] <Sloar> strange[17:56:00] *** mazon is now known as Mazon[18:05:23] *** Razec has left #haiku[18:05:28] *** nonesuch has joined #haiku[18:06:38] <nonesuch> is it possible to install haiku by using "dd" from linux onto a blank partition[18:07:18] <nonesuch> i'd use the beos max live cd tip, but i have an ultralight notebook with no cdrom[18:10:28] *** MYOB has joined #haiku[18:15:21] <NeonLicht> nonesuch: how do you make the destination partition?[18:16:23] <NeonLicht> oh, I've just realized you are asking, not asserting it :-)[18:17:18] *** BGA has joined #haiku[18:17:19] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o BGA[18:18:11] *** BGA has quit IRC[18:18:30] *** BGA has joined #haiku[18:18:31] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o BGA[18:18:54] <nonesuch> neonlicht: sorry, forgot the question mark...once again, ultralight notebook, TINY keyboard![18:19:12] <nonesuch> so you don't have experience doing that?[18:19:33] <NeonLicht> no, I've just run Haiku on qemu[18:20:30] <nonesuch> hmm, i've done that a lot, but i want to try native--and my only computer with a cdrom has such a new/oddball chipset i'm not even going to bother trying to run Haiku on it[18:22:11] <Sloar> is there a backup anywhere to bebits since a lot of the links no longer work?[18:22:18] *** Yez_ has joined #Haiku[18:22:20] *** Yez has quit IRC[18:22:59] <NeonLicht> I'd like to run it native, also, but I'm afraid I don't have the skills (or the detailed enough instructions) on how to do it[18:23:51] *** MauriceK_ has joined #haiku[18:24:00] <nonesuch> well, i guess i'm just going to try "dd if=haiku.img of=/dev/sda3" and see what happens :P[18:24:18] <nonesuch> and setup a chainloader for boot[18:27:20] *** MauriceK has quit IRC[18:27:23] *** MauriceK_ is now known as MauriceK[18:28:00] <NeonLicht> please let me know what comes out of it :-)[18:31:23] <Begasus> Sloar if you are searching for downloads that are not available anymore on BeBits ... best place to search for is BeShare ;)[18:31:44] <Sloar> ok thank you[18:31:47] <Begasus> np[18:32:29] *** the_webers_inc_ has joined #haiku[18:37:37] *** Euver has joined #haiku[18:40:36] <Thom_Holwerda> Begasus: i dont think the ppc version will be on beshare :)[18:40:51] <Begasus> not that one Thom_Holwerda ;)[18:41:03] <Thom_Holwerda> ah nm[18:41:04] <Begasus> you should talk to *** then :P[18:41:44] <Thom_Holwerda> as if im going to run an illegal leak of an incomplete beta version of a 6yr old os :)[18:42:02] <Begasus> on even pretty old hw too ;)[18:42:10] <Thom_Holwerda> heh yeah[18:42:27] <MYOB> oh, are we talking about "aherm" for PowerPC?[18:42:44] * Begasus whistels ...[18:43:02] <MYOB> because its significantly less fragile than, erm, you know... pity about the GUI being arse[18:43:10] <Begasus> don't think it's even worth the hunt ;)[18:44:44] <Thom_Holwerda> for archeological sake[18:46:33] <Sloar> hopefully alot of the files that used to be on bebits are backed up somewhere so they are apps that haiku can run when ready[18:46:46] <gotaku> nonesuch: Don't forget to run makebootable[18:47:05] <MYOB> most of them are "backed up"[18:47:12] <MYOB> on the hard drives of long term users[18:47:17] <Begasus> Sloar it's not an official backup on BeShare ..[18:47:24] <MYOB> MikeW keeps pushing me for the contents of my HDDs[18:47:30] <nonesuch> gotaku: explain...?[18:47:33] <Sloar> what about potential haiku users?[18:47:38] <Begasus> but Zaranthos or Zathros has quiet a collection ;)[18:47:43] <nonesuch> is that a haiku program that's been ported to *nix?[18:47:50] <Sloar> they will need a place to get apps where the downloads work[18:48:09] <gotaku> It will install the bootsector onto the partition.[18:48:17] <Begasus> you're talking about almost 15 years Sloar ...[18:48:26] <Begasus> hard to keep track of all ;)[18:48:44] <MYOB> 15s a bit of a push but its definately 10[18:49:01] <Sloar> who maintains bebits?[18:49:02] <Begasus> well maybe not the software ;)[18:49:25] <Begasus> don't know if the guys behind are really paying attention atm ...[18:49:29] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[18:49:29] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[18:49:42] <gotaku> When I dd'ed the image to my partition it wouldn't boot unless I ran makebootable on it.[18:49:54] <nonesuch> where can i get makebootable?[18:50:14] <Begasus> plop[18:50:42] <gotaku> You have to compile from source I think.[18:51:05] *** stargater has joined #haiku[18:51:06] <stargater> hi[18:51:16] <Begasus> hi[18:51:24] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[18:51:39] <gotaku> I wouldn't recommend installing Haiku right now "just to try out" anyway. It's not very useful yet.[18:51:57] <gotaku> If you want to try it out, it would be much better to use something like vmplayer.[18:52:25] <nonesuch> gotaku: i've been using qemu and vmware on haiku for some time now, i just want to try it native[18:52:47] <Begasus> getting into kdl is a lot faster native than in emulation gotaku ;)[18:52:50] * Begasus ducks[18:53:12] *** the_webers_inc has quit IRC[18:53:12] <Begasus> not in terms of use though ;)[18:53:37] <Begasus> remins me ...[18:53:46] <Begasus> need to check PG in Haiku in a bit ...[18:53:54] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[18:54:58] <MYOB> very weird problem with latest VLC[18:55:02] <MYOB> file access doesn't work :/[18:55:13] <MYOB> it makes a -great- streaming media player now though :P[18:55:23] <Begasus> so playing a vob from file won't work MYOB?[18:55:28] <Begasus> :p[18:55:31] <gotaku> Looks like more people responded to ticket 1003... but I'm still no closer to finding the problem.[18:58:03] *** siarzhuk has joined #haiku[19:04:43] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[19:04:46] <Jixt> hi[19:04:58] <Jixt> is there a beos port for pkg-config?[19:05:11] <CIA-18> marcusoverhagen * r20904 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/bus_managers/ps2/ps2_mouse.c: Filter bad mouse data. This prevents random jumping of the cursor, as observed on some systems.[19:06:02] *** lorglas has joined #haiku[19:06:38] <Begasus> Jixt![19:07:02] <CIA-18> marcusoverhagen * r20905 /haiku/trunk/src/servers/syslog_daemon/syslog_output.cpp: Made maximum syslog size and inclusion of timestamps configureable in kernel settings.[19:07:10] <MYOB> Jixt I'm sure tigerdog has a recent one[19:07:14] <MYOB> and BryanV IIRC[19:07:17] <MYOB> its easily ported[19:07:23] <Begasus> yep[19:07:36] <Begasus> only needs[19:07:45] <Begasus> * and * and* ... :)[19:08:11] <MYOB> Begasus nah, pkg-config is more of a "apps x y z and m, n, o and p need it... oh, and q does too!"[19:08:14] <MYOB> its a low-end requirement[19:08:53] <MYOB> doesn't need much itself[19:09:29] <Begasus> I think I even compiled it once earlier ...[19:09:30] <Jixt> nice MYOB[19:09:48] <Jixt> I will download it then and compile it[19:10:31] <Begasus> Jixt .. made a few makefiles for ZETA and R5 so they can be compiled from Terminal[19:11:03] <Jixt> nice[19:11:16] <Begasus> already compiled in R5 also ...[19:11:24] <Begasus> crashes .. but it compiles ;)[19:11:43] <stargater> why crash it ?[19:12:00] <Begasus> I think in building the window ..[19:12:05] <Begasus> maybe you can check also stargater[19:12:28] <Begasus> you can download the source via svn and use the BeIDE projects to compile[19:12:48] <stargater> Begasus: i used linux[19:13:12] <Begasus> no R5 install?[19:13:18] <stargater> no[19:13:21] <Begasus> :s[19:13:32] <Begasus> hard to test then ;)[19:13:34] <stargater> my focus is haiku[19:13:52] *** TLF has joined #haiku[19:15:53] *** rcjsuen__ is now known as rcjsuen[19:18:36] <Thom_Holwerda> how does everybody in here feel about a[19:18:41] <Thom_Holwerda> waltercon in europe[19:18:43] <Thom_Holwerda> (damn enter key)[19:18:45] <Sloar> was the beos version of codewarrior only for ppc systems?[19:18:47] *** JonathanThompson has joined #Haiku[19:18:52] <MYOB> I'm all for it[19:19:00] <MYOB> Sloar it was BeIDE by the time Intel got supported[19:19:13] <MYOB> BeIDE is a licenced CodeWarrior derivative[19:19:29] <Sloar> ok thank you, very good to know[19:19:30] <MYOB> Thom_Holwerda I'm pushing for Dublin due to its abundent conference centres ;)[19:20:20] <Thom_Holwerda> MYOB: in spite of how much i'd LOVE to go to ireland, i dont think it's a logical choice due to the fact it pushes up travel costs[19:20:26] <Thom_Holwerda> compared to i.e. france or germany[19:20:39] <MYOB> Thom_Holwerda home city of two large budget airlines[19:20:47] <Begasus> so you got a native Haiku install then stargater?[19:20:48] <Begasus> ;)[19:21:05] <Begasus> <jk>[19:21:05] <JonathanThompson> I imagine if a WalterCon is held in Europe and not in the US this year, very few (if any) of the US people would be able to attend, due to time and costs.[19:21:26] <MYOB> JonathanThompson and thats a bad thing? *ducks and runs away as quickly as possible*[19:21:39] <CIA-18> marcusoverhagen * r20906 /haiku/trunk/data/settings/kernel/drivers/kernel:[19:21:39] <CIA-18> Enabled syslog debug output by default, added new syslog options to config file.[19:21:39] <CIA-18> Reversed arguments in kernel settings file, now you only need to uncomment a line[19:21:39] <CIA-18> to get the non-default setting. Explained default setting in comments.[19:21:42] <MYOB> far, far, far more of the user base and developer base are in Europe[19:21:43] * JonathanThompson trips MYOB with a giant clue stick on his way out[19:21:46] <Thom_Holwerda> JonathanThompson: nicholas just emailed the list about that[19:21:57] <Thom_Holwerda> he says whats the problem with having two waltercons?[19:22:09] <JonathanThompson> Ask MPhipps about his money/time issues :)[19:22:09] <CIA-18> marcusoverhagen * r20907 /haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/debug/debug.c:[19:22:09] <CIA-18> Enabled syslog debug output by default, added new syslog options to config file.[19:22:09] <CIA-18> Reversed arguments in kernel settings file, now you only need to uncomment a line[19:22:09] <CIA-18> to get the non-default setting. Explained default setting in comments.[19:22:17] <JonathanThompson> That may be a big deciding factor.[19:22:22] <Thom_Holwerda> true.[19:22:30] <MYOB> does mphipps -have- to be there in person though?[19:22:42] <MYOB> this is what video links are for ;)[19:22:45] <JonathanThompson> Even if not in person, it still takes time if he's there remotely.[19:23:09] <MYOB> doesn't even really need to do that either[19:23:14] <JonathanThompson> It's important to remember that MOST people in the US don't get NEARLY as much vacation time from work as those in Europe do.[19:23:28] <Sloar> beos 5 pro running in vpc7 on a dual g4 1.6ghz powerpc mac is too slow to be usable in case anyone wanted to try it, i even had the image converted and running in Q the cocoawrapped qemu for mac osx and its also slow[19:23:37] <Thom_Holwerda> i dont see the problem in having TWO waltercons[19:23:43] <Thom_Holwerda> its not like you are obliged to go to both[19:23:44] <JonathanThompson> Though if it is on the weekend and he does it via remote conference, that's likely not that much of a problem.[19:24:18] <Thom_Holwerda> darn lost track of time[19:24:21] <Thom_Holwerda> i need to cook[19:24:30] <JonathanThompson> IIRC MPhipps is in New York, so at least it wouldn't be too horrible of a flight.[19:24:52] <JonathanThompson> It'd likely be about 6 hours one-way flight time for him from there, though it may be more if it isn't non-stop.[19:25:05] <JonathanThompson> (I've never flown outside the US yet...)[19:25:09] *** Yez_ has quit IRC[19:25:16] <Begasus> howdy JonathanThompson[19:25:21] <JonathanThompson> It'd be easily 12 hours flight from Washington state, minimum.[19:25:24] <JonathanThompson> Hi Begasus.[19:25:38] <Begasus> scared to pass the big lake? ;)[19:25:58] <Begasus> nah .. jk ...[19:26:07] <petterhj> you americans need to get out of your own backyard some more anyway ;p[19:26:11] <JonathanThompson> The Big Lake doesn't give me frights, it's what it'd do to my butt and lower back on the flights :P[19:26:12] <Begasus> it's quiet an investment comming over from there[19:26:41] <Begasus> you could always head back with the stewardesses JonathanThompson to keep in shape ;)[19:26:52] <JonathanThompson> I likely wouldn't be able to afford first class, so that much flying in economy seats would be a real pain in the back and ass :P[19:27:01] *** nonesuch has quit IRC[19:27:05] <Begasus> hehe[19:27:06] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[19:27:40] <JonathanThompson> It isn't possible for me to find a way to sleep on a plane, sadly.[19:27:44] <Thom_Holwerda> JonathanThompson: tell me about it[19:27:46] <JonathanThompson> Not really, anyway.[19:27:54] <Thom_Holwerda> i hated that too about flying to TX[19:27:55] *** AndrevS has joined #haiku[19:27:56] <Thom_Holwerda> i couldnt sleep[19:28:09] <JonathanThompson> And I'm dimensioned in such a way that I can't lean forward onto the tray in front.[19:28:20] <JonathanThompson> (Long torso)[19:28:36] <Thom_Holwerda> im actually quite small so hat wasnt a problem[19:28:45] <Thom_Holwerda> i just hate sleeping in an upright position[19:28:50] <Thom_Holwerda> the body isnt made for that[19:29:02] <JonathanThompson> No, and it isn't healthy to be that still for that long.[19:29:11] <JonathanThompson> And I'm naturally not very still anyway.[19:29:13] <Thom_Holwerda> yup, you need to walk[19:29:21] <Thom_Holwerda> heh same here, cant still still for 4 seconds[19:29:28] *** the_webers_inc_ has quit IRC[19:29:33] <JonathanThompson> I would be far happier if the long flights had me walking on a treadmill.[19:29:40] <JonathanThompson> It'd be much more comfortable for me.[19:30:36] <JonathanThompson> Depending on my motivation, I could walk a marathon on a flight from Washington state to the east coast :P[19:30:38] <Thom_Holwerda> a squash court on board[19:30:42] <Thom_Holwerda> id sign up for that[19:31:08] <JonathanThompson> (Yes, I do a sustained walking speed that fast)[19:31:15] <MYOB> JonathanThompson you don't get 20 days?[19:31:24] <JonathanThompson> HA HA HA HA[19:31:36] <JonathanThompson> Not in a group we choose, definitely.[19:31:49] <JonathanThompson> You need seniority somewhere to get that much vacation time of your choosing.[19:31:53] <MYOB> we get 20 days of our choice and 9 compulsary[19:31:54] <MYOB> by law[19:32:08] <JonathanThompson> You see? That's EXACTLY what I was referring to.[19:32:09] <MYOB> and then its "seriously advised" that you get 1 day per year of service until 5 years[19:32:40] <MYOB> my contract gives me 30 days after 5 years[19:33:07] *** arikato has quit IRC[19:33:14] <JonathanThompson> Most places in the US you're lucky to get 2 weeks of choice the first year, and perhaps 1 additional day per year service from then on, but that's usually not granted until you've been there 5 years.[19:33:19] <Thom_Holwerda> im a student with a temp job to pay my rent and car[19:33:20] <MYOB> additionally your employer can't do crap if you take 6 or less sick leave days a year here, would be a serious serious offence if they fired you[19:33:23] <Thom_Holwerda> ive got nothing to complain[19:33:42] <JonathanThompson> Assuming you GET vacation...[19:34:25] <JonathanThompson> Other than federal holidays, it isn't law that employers must give you vacation time, and even then, they can have you work on holidays, for holiday pay.[19:34:42] <JonathanThompson> And working as a contractor right now, I effectively have almost nothing.[19:34:45] <MYOB> here they -have- to give you a day in lieu for the state holidays[19:34:53] <MYOB> meaning you're legally entitled to 29, no matter what[19:35:09] <MYOB> your minimum wage is significantly lower than ours too...[19:35:37] <JonathanThompson> Last I knew, the Washington state minimum wage is currently the highest, though Hawaii may be higher.[19:35:45] <MYOB> what is it though?[19:35:48] <JonathanThompson> There's federal minimum wage, and then there's state.[19:35:55] <JonathanThompson> IIRC $7.93/hour right now.[19:36:08] <MYOB> after the next bump ours will convert to $11.80[19:36:12] <JonathanThompson> Not something you'd be able to reasonably raise a family on working 40 hours a week.[19:36:33] <MYOB> and only about 4% of people are on the minimum wage[19:36:38] <petterhj> thats what the polish get paid illegaly here.[19:36:45] <JonathanThompson> I have no clue what the numbers in the US are.[19:36:52] <MYOB> 10 euro an hour is about the minimum you'd do -anything- for[19:37:07] <MYOB> I'm salaried however, and I've never worked it back[19:37:09] <silverpower> Higher than 4% most likely.[19:37:16] <JonathanThompson> I don't know how the living costs compare: that's what really matters.[19:37:17] <MYOB> its 43,000 in dollars[19:37:51] <MYOB> JonathanThompson they were higher here but essentials are at negligable or negative inflation here since 2003 - other than fuel[19:37:56] <JonathanThompson> Without knowing how that translates in equivalent cost of living, the dimension doesn't mean much in practice :P[19:37:57] <MYOB> so I'd guess they're somewhat equalised[19:38:35] <JonathanThompson> Your minimum may be effectively less, or more, than it is here, and it varies quite a bit in the US as to what it is really worth.[19:38:35] <MYOB> I know I'm paying less for clothes and food than I was a few years ago[19:38:53] <silverpower> JonathanThompson, roughly, we need around $800-850 to keep up with the bills, not counting food or the medical bills we're about to be slammed with.[19:39:09] <MYOB> silverpower "we're" - more than one person?[19:39:18] <JonathanThompson> And what sort of housing is included in that number?[19:39:22] <silverpower> MYOB, me and my mom.[19:39:31] <stargater> Jixt: what is in haiku missing, for PG to compile and run in haiku ?[19:39:36] <Thom_Holwerda> MYOB: in my country, prices went up quite a lot the past few years[19:39:41] <MYOB> not counting housing, I'd "need" about 700 euros a month[19:39:52] <Thom_Holwerda> the euro is certainly to blame, partly[19:39:57] <MYOB> Thom_Holwerda yeah, it appears to be just an Irish phenomenon[19:40:11] <silverpower> JonathanThompson, 2BD, 1.5 bath two-story apartment in an okay neighborhood in a small economically-depressed town.[19:40:14] <MYOB> prices here have been dropping since the euro, which is against the rest of europe[19:40:19] <JonathanThompson> Perhaps Ireland is making the rest of Europe look bad :P[19:40:33] <MYOB> that said housing costs are obscene[19:40:41] <Thom_Holwerda> ireland used to be the poorest country in the EU[19:40:47] *** AndrevS has quit IRC[19:40:49] <JonathanThompson> Things change.[19:40:50] <Thom_Holwerda> now its one of th erichest with the strongest economny[19:41:00] <MYOB> Thom_Holwerda shared that title with Portugal[19:41:05] <Thom_Holwerda> yup[19:41:18] <MYOB> main driver of the economy was the state making college education free[19:41:28] * JonathanThompson starts writing the novel, "The Rise and Fall of the Irish Empire"[19:41:35] <_hugo> what empire? :-)[19:41:44] <MYOB> as well as having the most advanced telecom network in europe in the early 90s. pity they never upgraded it much...[19:41:45] <umccullough> google is strong there ;)[19:42:02] <MYOB> took eircom 2 years to get to 100% ISDN rollout. Its taken them 8 to get to 90% DSL rollout...[19:42:03] <_hugo> umccullough: in ireland?[19:42:11] <umccullough> _hugo, yes, somewhat[19:42:21] <umccullough> huge trunks there[19:42:21] <JonathanThompson> Google is everywhere: look at Google Earth :P[19:42:41] <MYOB> but yes, theres large Google bases here[19:42:42] <_hugo> umccullough: i think their main focus of research in europe is in Switzerland, but long time since i've checked[19:42:47] <MYOB> hosting, as well as adwords sales, etc[19:42:51] <MYOB> not much in the way of hacking[19:44:07] * JonathanThompson wonders if things will work out for Yahoo! to keep him permanently[19:44:20] <JonathanThompson> And of course, the vacation clock restarts entirely when that happens.[19:44:34] <umccullough> http://www.google.com/corporate/address.html[19:44:39] <umccullough> European Headquarters[19:44:39] <umccullough> Gordon House[19:44:39] <umccullough> Barrow Street[19:44:39] <umccullough> Dublin 4[19:44:39] <umccullough> Ireland[19:44:39] <umccullough> fax: +353 (1) 436 1001[19:44:46] <MYOB> hrm, no wonder so many US fiorms get serious culture shock here[19:44:56] <JonathanThompson> Yes.[19:45:03] <MYOB> umccullough built on a reclaimed gas works in the most expensive part of the city[19:45:04] * kr1stof is listening to Burning In Water, Drowning In Flame by Skrew from Burning In Water, Drowning In Flame Position: 00:40/05:09 Bitrate: 1411kbps Rating: [✩✩✩✩✩][19:45:07] <JonathanThompson> "We have to pay for HOW MUCH vacation???"[19:45:45] <MYOB> JonathanThompson the requirement to pay social insurance, the requirement to manage your employees tax payments and pensions, etc, also adds to it ;)[19:46:08] <JonathanThompson> There's a certain amount of that in the US, but it isn't all required.[19:46:21] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[19:46:22] <JonathanThompson> An employer isn't required to offer anything towards retirement, for example.[19:46:23] <MYOB> you can insist your employer arranges a pension for you - even if they contribute nothing[19:46:46] <JonathanThompson> A lot of employers offer a 401K.[19:46:54] <MYOB> expectation is that they'll match you to 3-7% of salary - they can claim tax back on their contributions[19:47:03] <JonathanThompson> It doesn't mean they'll add anything to it, but often they will, if you do first, or perhaps in the form of profit sharing.[19:47:20] <MYOB> JonathanThompson a 401K looks almost identical to the PRSA system here[19:47:28] <MYOB> except they are oblidged to offer a PRSA[19:47:34] <JonathanThompson> A 401K is a purely voluntary thing.[19:48:08] <MYOB> yet more to add to the shock ;)[19:48:20] <JonathanThompson> Whatever is contributed to a 401K is contributed from non-taxed income, and whatever you put in there reduces your overall taxable amount for that year.[19:48:30] <MYOB> yeah, same here[19:48:47] <JonathanThompson> There's also the IRA which is from post-taxed income.[19:48:56] <MYOB> I put 5% in to a PRSA but the actual affect on my salary is only 4% (as I'm only on 20% tax)[19:49:10] <JonathanThompson> That can be done individually as you like, up to $2K or so per year, so it isn't worth an awful lot in savings.[19:49:11] <MYOB> anything above 10% doesn't get the tax benefits IIRC[19:49:43] <JonathanThompson> A 401K has an upper limit of (I think) 15% of income, up to around $10K or so.[19:50:03] <JonathanThompson> I'm not sure of the exact numbers: they change as time goes by.[19:50:12] <MYOB> I'm only doing 5% as thats all the company will match for me[19:50:47] <JonathanThompson> At the moment, I have no retirement savings at all.[19:50:59] <JonathanThompson> I had some in a 401K in the past, but I had to use it to survive.[19:51:04] <MYOB> whats the social security pension like then?[19:51:16] <JonathanThompson> Not enough to live off of in a meaningful manner.[19:51:36] <JonathanThompson> And due to the population makeup change, it isn't likely to be solvent by that time I could qualify anyway.[19:51:47] <JonathanThompson> (Unless I get considered medically disabled before then)[19:52:17] <silverpower> SSDI only gets you around $600ish from what I understand, anyway.[19:52:22] <MYOB> its 200 euro a week here[19:52:28] <JonathanThompson> If I were to become disabled now, I'd have to find a cheap place, because it wouldn't pay the rent here, let alone other requirements.[19:52:43] <MYOB> govt. here has multiple billions in a reserve fund to cover the demographic changes for pensions[19:53:01] *** AndrevS has joined #haiku[19:53:03] <MYOB> they also surreally own some toll roads in Japan for that purpose...[19:53:16] <JonathanThompson> For a long time the government/politicians have been borrowing from the SS nest egg for other things.[19:53:58] <JonathanThompson> Hmmm... all the Japanese would have to do is become couch potatoes and grow all stuff/make all stuff too locally and they'd hurt your standard of retirement living :P[19:54:51] <JonathanThompson> If all you have in the US for retirement is derived from social security, you'll be poor, even if you're otherwise healthy and don't have medical bills.[19:55:05] <MYOB> medical bills?[19:55:09] <JonathanThompson> Yes.[19:55:11] <MYOB> oh wait, no GMS...[19:55:16] <MYOB> over 70 here = no medical bills[19:55:18] <JonathanThompson> Old people often have greater medical expenses :)[19:55:20] <MYOB> state health insurance[19:55:24] *** Pulko_Mandy has quit IRC[19:55:39] <JonathanThompson> Even with medicaid, etc. you still have to pay something, and there's no age limit.[19:56:07] <MYOB> don't pay anything on GMS[19:56:08] <JonathanThompson> (well, your expenses drop off once you're dead...)[19:56:44] * JonathanThompson considers moving to Ireland :P[19:56:49] <MYOB> depends how lavish the funeral is doens't it?[19:56:55] <JonathanThompson> It does.[19:57:02] <JonathanThompson> That's not free.[19:57:12] <JonathanThompson> (not even the cheapest ones)[19:57:26] <MYOB> can be buried by the DSFA here but it ain't pretty[19:57:30] <MYOB> sorry, burnt[19:57:33] <MYOB> not buried anymore[19:57:37] <MYOB> cardboard coffin...[19:57:47] <JonathanThompson> IIRC social security pays $255 towards that (I hear it in the life insurance commercials) an amount that was set probably around WW2.[19:58:49] <JonathanThompson> Of course, if you donate your body to study, you can take care of that whole issue...[19:59:01] <MYOB> 850 euros here, which is also set many years ago I'd guess[19:59:29] <JonathanThompson> I doubt a burial most anywhere in the US would be < $5K.[20:00:28] <MYOB> similar, unless you want a cardboard coffin and to be burnt in the jewish cemetarys crematorium (least demand :P)[20:00:59] <JonathanThompson> Nice to know capitalism is never dead, even if you are :P[20:01:05] *** PulkoMandy has joined #haiku[20:01:41] <Jixt> MYOB, I'm trying to compile pkg-config, but with no succes[20:01:48] <MYOB> I think my health insurance pays about 3,000 euros out at death... I think[20:02:06] <Jixt> I'm trying to compile it on R5[20:02:07] <Thom_Holwerda> i have no idea[20:02:13] <Thom_Holwerda> i dont try to think of that, geneally[20:02:23] <JonathanThompson> That's what life insurance is for here.... health insurance only pays something towards keeping you alive :P[20:02:35] <MYOB> yeah, its not something I intend to cash in on[20:02:40] <MYOB> nor do I want to know how to! :P[20:03:02] <silverpower> JonathanThompson, it also helps if you secure it *before* you get diagnosed with cancer.[20:03:09] <JonathanThompson> Knowing how to die doesn't take brains, yet many people still fail on the first attempt, and often several attempts :P[20:03:11] <silverpower> (or something equally nasty.)[20:03:17] <JonathanThompson> True, silverpower.[20:03:47] <Thom_Holwerda> JonathanThompson: thats because many people who attempt to comit suicide actually do not want to die[20:04:16] <JonathanThompson> That's true in many cases, but I've heard of several cases where they wanted to, but were failures despite that.[20:04:19] <MYOB> I know a mental health nurse who says that >90% of attempted suicides who wake up in the CMH are glad they didn't die[20:04:31] <Thom_Holwerda> MYOB: thats because they want attention[20:04:32] <JonathanThompson> They didn't choose something with enough of a guarantee to be fatal, or they just had really dumb luck.[20:04:33] <MYOB> quite a number of them are going to, due to paracetemol overdoses destroying their liver, but still...[20:04:34] <silverpower> (Though I suspect that my mother's family would pay for it; they're well-off and they do care about her.)[20:04:54] <Thom_Holwerda> one of my professors during my psychology study at uni[20:04:54] <Thom_Holwerda> said[20:05:03] <Thom_Holwerda> no, not said[20:05:05] <Thom_Holwerda> remove that[20:05:17] <Thom_Holwerda> he got mad whenever someone said "failed suicide attempt"[20:05:48] <JonathanThompson> I knew someone that shot themselves in the head, point blank.[20:06:03] <JonathanThompson> They should have used a more powerful gun than a .22 pistol (I think it was)[20:06:23] <MYOB> thats a surprisingly major one to survive...[20:06:27] <silverpower> MYOB, overriding the will to exist is... difficult... to say the least.[20:06:53] <MYOB> silverpower and it generally takes more than three packets of Hedex and a bottle of Jack...[20:07:11] *** AndrevS has quit IRC[20:07:41] *** AndrevS has joined #haiku[20:08:01] <JonathanThompson> I figure if you're truly serious about killing yourself and ending your real or perceived misery, you should be sure what you do is an atomic operation: either it succeeds completely, or it doesn't do any harm.[20:08:07] <silverpower> JonathanThompson, no, a .22 should've done the job pretty effectively. .22s'll just bounce around inside your skull instead of exiting. *Usually*.[20:08:15] * JonathanThompson applies database semantics to death...[20:08:22] <_hugo> guys... come on[20:08:28] <_hugo> you are severely off topic here[20:08:48] <silverpower> Okay, that's getting a tad morbid even for me.[20:08:49] * JonathanThompson wonders if Haiku would survive a shot with a .22[20:09:00] <JonathanThompson> There we go, back (marginally) on topic :P[20:09:07] <Thom_Holwerda> _hugo: excusez-moi[20:09:10] <Thom_Holwerda> you'e right[20:09:20] <MYOB> _hugo I don't think I've ever been on-topic in here, really...[20:09:33] <MYOB> no wait, we did start off discussing Waltercon didn't we?[20:09:45] <Thom_Holwerda> on osnews, we let the concept of "on topic-ness" go looooooong ago[20:09:46] <_hugo> MYOB: you dont see me complaining too many times[20:09:50] <JonathanThompson> When I first got on today, that was the topic :)[20:10:05] <MYOB> Thom_Holwerda you're nearly at The Register stage[20:10:23] <Thom_Holwerda> MYOB: ...?[20:10:38] <MYOB> of being massively off topic[20:10:43] <_hugo> MYOB: and considering this is channel about Haiu, where developers and users join in to share their experiences and advance development, i think that yeah, suicide is a bit off topic[20:11:02] <MYOB> The Reigster is slowly turning to a merged Viz and PCW[20:11:08] <Thom_Holwerda> MYOB: thats because in order to remain on topi[20:11:09] *** TLF has quit IRC[20:11:12] <JonathanThompson> I'd have to agree, _hugo.... thanks for yanking our chains back to the topic of something more appropriate :)[20:11:23] <Thom_Holwerda> we must apply a certain facsist-like moderation[20:11:31] <Thom_Holwerda> which i aint doing for free[20:11:40] <JonathanThompson> Ah, yes, and there's inevitably people that will whine about "freedom of speech"[20:11:41] *** TLF has joined #haiku[20:11:45] <Thom_Holwerda> exactly.[20:12:00] <JonathanThompson> They conveniently forget that doesn't apply to personally-owned venues.[20:12:02] <MYOB> facist moderation is a service you can find many people to do for free ;)[20:12:42] <JonathanThompson> Or perhaps they never had proper education on that topic, or were doing their best to skip the class, or were goggling the girrls across the room :P[20:12:45] <_hugo> MYOB: if you consider that your participation doesn't step on other people toes, sure[20:13:10] <_hugo> i like to check the chat in the channel as there might be stuff that interest me. so whenever there is activity i bump in[20:13:16] <_hugo> to see what are people talking about[20:13:26] <MYOB> JonathanThompson is freedom of speech generally educated?[20:13:30] <_hugo> so personally i would rather have an average of on-topic conversation[20:13:51] <JonathanThompson> It's taught about, MYOB... but many people forget that there are limits even to freedom.[20:14:19] *** Euver has quit IRC[20:15:02] <JonathanThompson> For example, screaming "Fire!" in a crowded theatre when there's no fire wouldn't be protected.[20:15:12] *** TTRanger has joined #haiku[20:17:01] <MYOB> returning to what we WERE talking about... is a Waltercon physically incapable of not having MPhipps?[20:17:14] <umccullough> off-topic?... honestly this channel is more on-topic now than it was a year ago ;)[20:17:23] *** lorglas has quit IRC[20:17:42] <petterhj> what would Keynote (or what it's called) be without Jobs :p[20:17:46] * JonathanThompson wonders if MYOB is hinting that WalterCon is a cult of personality with that question :)[20:18:00] <MYOB> erm, only slightly :P[20:18:08] <umccullough> what Haiku needs are more "meetings of the minds" - not necessarily waltercon[20:18:11] <MYOB> theres many many Linux conferences with no Linus[20:18:34] * JonathanThompson comes up with a pun based on that...[20:18:54] <JonathanThompson> The bottom linus is that their conferences don't need him :P[20:19:12] <umccullough> that doesn't work...[20:19:21] <JonathanThompson> The bottom linus that their conferences don't need him :P[20:19:23] <umccullough> Linus doesn't have a long "I"[20:19:25] <JonathanThompson> Is that better? :)[20:19:44] <JonathanThompson> Depends on how you pronounce the name.[20:19:55] <JonathanThompson> If you go with the Peanuts pronunciation, it works.[20:19:56] <umccullough> well, he pronounces it with a short i, almost an e[20:20:13] <umccullough> leenus[20:20:16] <MYOB> anyway, without a Waltercon Europe, could Haiku Inc, erm, trying to think of the word here...[20:20:30] <MYOB> confer some level of 'exalted' status on BeGeistert[20:20:40] <JonathanThompson> Sanctioned?[20:20:49] <MYOB> possibly[20:20:50] <gotaku> Is there any point to WalterCon at the moment?[20:21:10] * JonathanThompson notes "sanction" seems to have a couple of completely contradictory meanings[20:21:20] <MYOB> JonathanThompson yeah, that it does[20:21:26] <JonathanThompson> "Blessed" by Haiku, Inc.[20:21:34] <MYOB> to sanction something as official... and sanction something to stop it being done :P[20:21:35] <umccullough> gotaku, i think that's the basic underlying question that has popped up on the mailing list[20:21:54] <MYOB> "Blessed" is almost as bad as "exalted" for making Haiku sound like a religion :P[20:22:09] <umccullough> the thing is, Haiku doesn't absolutely *NEED* and "inc" to bless it[20:22:15] <JonathanThompson> Well, note that in Mac OS before OS X, you "blessed" system folders :P[20:22:32] <MYOB> yes, but MacOS is a religion - well, a cult[20:22:37] <umccullough> Haiku is a community effort - the NPO is there to help in the interest of the community[20:22:40] <MYOB> but its hard to tell the difference...[20:22:51] <gotaku> "Cons" are usually about something that already exists and has a fanbase, not something that will at some future time exist.[20:22:53] <JonathanThompson> Ok, I have a suggestion that doesn't have such connotations: "Authorize"[20:23:09] <MYOB> gotaku Haiku does exist and has a fanbase[20:23:21] <umccullough> JonathanThompson, that's closer - since the NPO theoretically owns the trademark, etc.[20:23:21] <MYOB> at the time of the first Waltercon there was, well, virtually nothing to see, move along please...[20:23:43] <gotaku> Haiku doesn't exist... we are pre-Haiku.[20:23:53] <JonathanThompson> Or Haiku, Inc. supports BeGeistert...[20:23:59] <Thom_Holwerda> conferences at this stage is mostly done for consolidation purposes[20:24:04] <umccullough> gotaku, that's splitting hairs[20:24:05] <MYOB> no, it very much exists. usability and the products existance are quite different...[20:24:05] <JonathanThompson> And recognizes them as having that support.[20:24:13] <MYOB> The was a BeDC before BeOS was realistically usable[20:24:27] <stargater> BeFan e.V supports BeGeistert[20:24:32] <Thom_Holwerda> waltrcon is not about getting new people to haiku[20:24:37] <umccullough> Haiku does in fact exist - it's just not an "end user" product yet[20:24:42] <Thom_Holwerda> its about consolidating what you aleady have[20:25:06] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, the problem is, it really needs to be about getting new people :([20:25:22] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: you wont get new people to pay $$$ t go to a conference[20:25:24] <umccullough> or at least, SOMETHING needs to be about getting new people...if not Waltercon, then something else[20:25:39] <MYOB> it needs to get people who are new to the core of the concept[20:25:41] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, that's a good point, definitely[20:25:51] <MYOB> you're not going to get anyone who isn't at least on the periphery[20:26:09] <Thom_Holwerda> waltercon needs to be about the devs discussing in person, which is really good for th eproject[20:26:11] <JonathanThompson> I think it needs to be some mix between the two: getting new people, and consolidating/strengthening the existing base of support.[20:26:20] <Thom_Holwerda> fcuk m-l's and irc, real contact is what counts[20:26:32] *** petterhj- has joined #haiku[20:26:37] <MYOB> this raises the question of "what the hell IS Waltercon"[20:26:53] *** petterhj has quit IRC[20:26:54] <Thom_Holwerda> this raises the need for coffee[20:26:56] <Thom_Holwerda> brb[20:27:05] <gotaku> Does Haiku having any regular meetings of all the main developers to discuss progress on things and set forth a path to R1?[20:27:06] <MYOB> Thom_Holwerda some of the devs have real contact - Ingo and Stippi are childhood friends IIRC, but yes, most ofd them haven't met often or at all[20:27:09] <JonathanThompson> A big social gathering of geeks presenting themselves and projects to each other, punctuated by trying restaurants :P[20:27:20] <Thom_Holwerda> oh and beer and martini biancos[20:27:25] <Thom_Holwerda> dont forget that part[20:28:02] <MYOB> it appears theres a mix here between a user/fan con and a development meeting (ala OpenBSD's hackathons)[20:28:37] <JonathanThompson> Well, WalterCon hasn't exactly been completely organized and orderly for the 2 I've been to, and I doubt it'll change much in the future.[20:28:40] <MYOB> I don't see if they mix well[20:28:57] <MYOB> although an interesting concept would be to have them concurrently, in the same city...[20:29:00] <gotaku> Anyway, is there any plan for reaching R1 or is everyone basically doing there own thing with the help that R1 will just be reached eventually?[20:29:11] <gotaku> hope[20:29:13] <JonathanThompson> And in both cases, there's been people there from the top geek echelon to complete non-computer geek status.[20:29:36] <TTRanger> Can someone please remind me of the way to login to freenode, the syntax?[20:29:53] <umccullough> gotaku, that's another issue - you might find some R1 milestones on dev.haiku-os.org though[20:30:06] <Begasus> tse .. already lost it Dane? ;)[20:30:09] <umccullough> but i don't find that the "roadmap to R1" is clearly defined either[20:30:16] <gotaku> "/msg nickserv identify <password>" I think.[20:30:17] <TTRanger> Begasus I know, I'm hopeless[20:30:22] <Begasus> not that hard ;) ... irc.freenode.net ;)[20:30:30] <Begasus> yep TTRanger ;)[20:30:31] <umccullough> just /ns identify <password> works as well[20:30:32] * JonathanThompson abandons hope for TTRanger, hopes someone else will adopt it :)[20:30:59] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: a roadmap would be something that could be discussed among the main devs during a conference[20:31:00] <Begasus> short "/ns id <pswd>"[20:31:00] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[20:31:00] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[20:31:09] <Begasus> plop[20:31:29] <TTRanger> dang, can't remember the password either[20:31:32] <TTRanger> hoo boy :-)[20:31:33] <JonathanThompson> Hey Thom_Holwerda, hear anything back from Bernd?[20:31:33] <mmu_man> plop[20:31:36] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, yes - and once discussed, results and decisions need to be documented and published :)[20:31:45] <Thom_Holwerda> when having a real-life discussion, you cant hide behind your email address[20:32:03] <JonathanThompson> Yes: others can throw wadded balls of paper at you :)[20:32:04] <Thom_Holwerda> which would speed up the "development" of a roadmap[20:32:21] <umccullough> true[20:32:22] <gotaku> Before continuing to just add feature on top of feature I think it would be good to have a concerted effort to deal with the bugs we already have instead of keep piling onto the code base.[20:32:24] <umccullough> it forces you to participate[20:32:27] <Begasus> using a pasword reminder app would be a good thing for you TTRanger ;)[20:32:33] <TTRanger> yep[20:32:36] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: exactly[20:32:50] <umccullough> gotaku, many the features being added are part of BeOS R5 anyway...[20:32:55] <Begasus> ever looked at MyPassword TTRanger?[20:33:08] <Begasus> I use it here too ... great tool to store the passwords ;)[20:33:11] <umccullough> gotaku, most software development focuses on features before bugfixes[20:33:26] <TTRanger> Begasus at Bebits?[20:33:27] * JonathanThompson needs a password-reminder app due to nobody standardizing on reminders and questions, etc....[20:33:39] <gotaku> umccullough: And I don't really agree with that.[20:33:43] <Begasus> don't think it's at BeBits TTRanger ...[20:33:50] <umccullough> gotaku, well, then you disagree with classic software development cycles[20:33:51] <Begasus> you could try flojo soft ;)[20:34:07] <MYOB> gotaku thats how all software gets written[20:34:08] <TTRanger> well, guess I need to move over to my ZETA install and retrieve all my login stuff... bbiab[20:34:09] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[20:34:14] <MYOB> features, feature freeze to kill bugs, release[20:34:19] <gotaku> umccullough: The difference is we don't work at a company... we have no timeline.[20:34:20] <umccullough> that's why "beta" is referred to as "feature complete"[20:34:22] <Begasus> tse ...[20:34:24] <stargater> Begasus: hehe this is writing in "yab" :-)[20:34:34] <Thom_Holwerda> JonathanThompson: bernd? well i email with him sometimes, and i have him in my IM list but i havent yet asked him about when he is going to publish his defence[20:34:39] <Begasus> yep I know stargater[20:34:39] <gotaku> umccullough: We don't have a date o ship.[20:34:44] <gotaku> to[20:34:50] <Begasus> I was on the frontline with it with DassJot and Florian ;)[20:34:53] <MYOB> gotaku the thing is - most of the coders DO work in commercial development, meaning they work to the same timelines already[20:34:56] <JonathanThompson> I have a strong suspicion the real answer is "never" Thom_Holwerda.[20:35:04] <umccullough> gotaku, sure, but the more focus that is put on fixing core bugs instead of adding functionality, the less developers there are to actually work ont he system while everyone waits[20:35:11] <Begasus> never said yab isn't great ;)[20:35:30] <Thom_Holwerda> JonathanThompson: i'm impartial, someone is innocent until proven otherwise[20:35:40] <umccullough> when you spread a project out over a team of resources, you have to work on things in parallel[20:35:44] <Thom_Holwerda> and i dont consider whatever access has done as "proof" either way.[20:35:53] <Begasus> ps ... stargater ... DassJott started MyPassword on my request ;)[20:35:56] *** TTRanger has joined #Haiku[20:35:58] <umccullough> gotaku, when you're a one-man-band type developer, you can focus on things from the ground up[20:36:02] <MYOB> you also find a surprising number of bugs while adding new features[20:36:06] <JonathanThompson> Whether he is innocent or not is a different question, I think, Thom_Holwerda: he may be too embarrassed, unless he wins, to hand it out.[20:36:11] <MYOB> on the "hrm, why the hell doesn't this work?" level[20:36:12] <Begasus> wb TTRanger[20:36:22] <gotaku> umccullough: I think the kernel development moved a little to quickly... now it seems we are stuck with multithreaded mess in the kernel.[20:36:43] <umccullough> gotaku, there are what - 2 kernel devs? - what was everyone else supposed to do while they waited for the kernel?[20:36:43] <MYOB> gotaku you've said that a few times - have you proof?[20:36:53] <JonathanThompson> There are definintely certain things where careful, plodding progress is far faster in reality, gotaku, and that's a prime example.[20:37:11] <gotaku> umccullough: Without a doubt we need more kernel people.[20:37:27] * TTRanger goes about copying down information[20:37:30] <umccullough> gotaku, it's also nearly impossible to make people work on parts that they aren't interested in[20:37:38] <Thom_Holwerda> other than that[20:37:43] <JonathanThompson> Especially when they're working for free.[20:37:45] <Thom_Holwerda> kernel work is hard, obviously[20:37:46] <umccullough> yep[20:38:03] <MYOB> even hardware when they're not interested and don't understand it - as kernel work is to most people[20:38:04] <umccullough> note, there have been many developers who have come and gone because the stuff they want to work on wasn't ready[20:38:39] <MYOB> we've also lost devs in arguments over the lack of a roadmap or set plans, mind...[20:38:40] <umccullough> many an "app developer" who wanted to write apps but left because they couldn't even boot Haiku[20:38:47] <umccullough> and couldn't get R5 running[20:38:53] <umccullough> MYOB, that too[20:39:00] <MYOB> Reinhold comes to mind[20:39:00] <JonathanThompson> Well, MYOB, if you're working for free, that's perfectly reasonable.[20:39:00] <umccullough> or, disagreements about architecture decisions[20:39:10] <gotaku> All true, but I still think a top priority should be having Haiku compile itself.[20:39:15] <JonathanThompson> It's very hard to get motivated when you think you may be wasting your time on something that won't be kept.[20:39:22] <gotaku> If it could I think it would attract more developers.[20:39:24] <TTRanger> ok, rebooting back[20:39:27] <TTRanger> brb[20:39:28] <umccullough> gotaku, that's a great goal - now who do you wish to attack that?[20:39:28] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[20:39:56] <gotaku> umccullough: Find money to pay axeld again.[20:39:58] <Begasus> attack umccullough? ;)[20:40:00] <Thom_Holwerda> i love how we went from waltercon to suicide back to waltercon and now to self-compile[20:40:06] * JonathanThompson notes development of OSS is like a herd of cats that may be herded by most of the cats in the herd (well, attempted)[20:40:16] <umccullough> Begasus, attacking goals is an agressive way to achieve them ;)[20:40:29] <MYOB> gotaku axeld now has a job[20:40:33] * Begasus notes that JonathanThompson still has some probs focussing .... ;)[20:40:36] <MYOB> he did that whilst between college and a job[20:40:43] <gotaku> I see.[20:40:46] <Begasus> true umccullough ;)[20:40:50] * JonathanThompson notes he's much like many surrounding Haiku :)[20:40:52] <MYOB> he'd be significantly more expensive now[20:40:57] <Begasus> rofl[20:40:58] *** TTRanger has joined #haiku[20:41:07] * Begasus nails down TTRanger[20:41:07] <Thom_Holwerda> MYOB: axeld is like a real person[20:41:10] <Thom_Holwerda> not a car ;)[20:41:19] <JonathanThompson> He's not like a fake person???[20:41:32] <TTRanger> ok, I deserve what I get, I know :-)[20:41:34] <umccullough> he's a real live basement-dweller[20:41:38] <MYOB> Thom_Holwerda thats my point, he's not a student now, he'd be a lot more expensive to keep in a job...[20:41:47] * JonathanThompson superglues TTRanger into #Haiku[20:41:50] <emitrax_> question: does anybody have any link about USBKit to point me to, or about how to write a usb driver?[20:41:51] <gotaku> If a google SoC student finishes his task does he take on another job or is that it?[20:42:05] <MYOB> gotaku up to them.[20:42:06] <JonathanThompson> Depends on the student.[20:42:08] <Begasus> emitrax_ .. check the post at ICO[20:42:09] <umccullough> gotaku, that's it - they can choose to stay[20:42:12] <MYOB> they're paid for a specific task[20:42:19] <Begasus> there is a link to the blog from mlotz[20:42:22] <JonathanThompson> Anyone can choose to stay or leave, at any time.[20:42:33] <Begasus> indeed JonathanThompson[20:42:36] <emitrax_> Begasus: and by ICO you mean ...[20:42:41] <JonathanThompson> No contract=no promise, it's that simple.[20:42:46] <JonathanThompson> IsComputerOn.com[20:42:51] <Begasus> http://www.iscomputeron.com[20:43:07] <Begasus> a good thing DaaT didn't see that emitrax_ :P[20:43:30] <emitrax_> why? :)[20:43:38] <umccullough> cuz that's his site :D[20:44:12] <Begasus> he's like a monument ;)[20:45:08] <emitrax_> ok :)[20:45:35] <gotaku> I would volunteer to get Haiku to self-compile but then I would actually have to become competent.[20:47:01] *** arikato has joined #haiku[20:48:17] *** emitrax__ has joined #haiku[20:49:44] *** Dr_Evil has joined #haiku[20:49:44] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Dr_Evil[20:50:00] <umccullough> gotaku, that's how most people feel :/[20:50:03] <Dr_Evil> _hugo I attached udp module now[20:50:08] <_hugo> Dr_Evil: thanks[20:50:37] <gotaku> The fact that the kernel is so multi-threaded makes things 100x worse...[20:50:53] <MYOB> gotaku again - can you prove that thats a problem?[20:50:58] <umccullough> gotaku, multithreading is largely what makes BeOS :)[20:51:02] <_hugo> gotaku: kernel development is hard[20:51:13] <MYOB> you keep saying it as if its a pure fact[20:51:14] <gotaku> MYOB: Is there any doubt it's not a problem?[20:51:29] <MYOB> gotaku you're the only one who keeps saying it, mantra-like[20:51:35] <umccullough> gotaku, i think what he's saying is that you're blaming it on things like multithreading, and applications[20:51:54] <gotaku> Kernel development is hard, Multi-threading with shared state is harder.[20:51:54] <umccullough> MYOB, i saw your luposian reference the other day - lol[20:51:54] <_hugo> gotaku: if it wasnt multithreaded it would have to be more asynchronous, which can be harder to debug[20:52:11] <MYOB> umccullough on here? yeah... its amazingly similar isn't it?[20:52:30] <gotaku> I still don't know who luspsian is.[20:52:39] <gotaku> Er.[20:52:43] <gotaku> whatever.[20:53:04] *** BGA has quit IRC[20:53:07] *** oco has joined #haiku[20:53:10] <Thom_Holwerda> there's an osnews user_id with that name[20:53:13] <Thom_Holwerda> luposian[20:53:20] <umccullough> gotaku, it's something you'd just have to experience ;)[20:53:26] <umccullough> i know you're not luposian though[20:53:34] <MYOB> Thom_Holwerda and they have a mantra about Haiku as well...[20:53:35] <gotaku> Or am I?[20:53:38] <gotaku> Muahaha.[20:53:47] <umccullough> heh, at least luposian isn't from canada[20:53:57] <Thom_Holwerda> is he one of those pro-haiku guys on osn?[20:54:03] <Thom_Holwerda> no offence, but they piss me off.[20:54:03] <MYOB> Thom_Holwerda not... quite...[20:54:10] <Thom_Holwerda> oh[20:54:21] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, you gotta read back through his comments - it's... funny[20:54:22] <MYOB> he appears to think that all development should stop until a specific problem is fixed[20:54:37] <MYOB> as in -all- development needs to go on it[20:54:48] <MYOB> right down to Nielx writing documentation for the bug I guess :P[20:55:14] <umccullough> he bothered to finally show up in channel... and he wasn't so bad to chat with after a while[20:55:15] <Thom_Holwerda> heh[20:55:45] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, i'm pro-haiku :)[20:55:58] <umccullough> but i also believe i'm realistic ;)[20:56:05] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: you have no idea what some people in osn are saying about haiku[20:56:23] <gotaku> I'm just frustrated trying to track down this bug... it could be happening anywhere, I'm so lost.[20:56:24] <Thom_Holwerda> i got frustrated to a point i WANTED to apply facist moderation[20:56:36] <Thom_Holwerda> that says qute a lot, as i HATE moderatig.[20:56:37] *** brecht has joined #haiku[20:56:39] <brecht> evening[20:56:51] *** SiCuTDeUx has quit IRC[20:56:57] <umccullough> actually, i do know - i read almost all haiku-related comments ;)[20:57:05] <umccullough> Vibe for example...[20:57:13] <umccullough> and during teh whole Zeta thing they came out of the woodwork[20:57:14] <Thom_Holwerda> yes![20:57:17] <Thom_Holwerda> thats him[20:57:32] <Thom_Holwerda> that guy is a total nutjob[20:57:36] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, i can understand your pain :)[20:58:12] <gotaku> We need something that will attract developers... the Google SoC is good but that is short term.[20:58:37] <Sloar> what is beos deved 2.2 ?[20:58:41] <gotaku> Maybe I should make a promotional video or something.[20:58:49] <umccullough> gotaku, it's a chicken-and-egg problem[20:58:52] <Thom_Holwerda> gotaku: showing what[20:59:08] <gotaku> Why Haiku is interesting.[20:59:09] <umccullough> there are some promotional videos floating around[20:59:11] <umccullough> like "Haiku rocks"[20:59:28] <umccullough> there just needs to be more buzz[20:59:31] <umccullough> more progress[20:59:39] <gotaku> Haiku rocks isn't what I would call really a promotional video...[20:59:40] <umccullough> it's like trying to get a train going[20:59:40] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: there is quite some buzz[20:59:45] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, yes, there has been :D[20:59:48] <umccullough> and it shows[20:59:53] <brecht> gotaku: personally, I think it might be best to keep Haiku out of the public eye until it has matured[21:00:06] <umccullough> brecht, that's not necessarily what is best for the project[21:00:13] <umccullough> developers need to see it[21:00:13] <brecht> people might try it only once and then give up on it[21:00:18] <umccullough> techies need to see it[21:00:27] <Thom_Holwerda> brecht: that comment is simply not true[21:00:29] <umccullough> brecht, i have heard that BS so many times in the last 5-6 years it's really gotten old[21:00:30] <Thom_Holwerda> look at linux[21:00:32] <gotaku> brecht: Promotion for development, not for daily use. At least not yet.[21:00:35] <Thom_Holwerda> and how often some people keep trying it[21:00:42] <brecht> gotaku: oh yes, then I agree[21:00:47] <brecht> I just entered :)[21:00:59] <umccullough> brecht, that seems to be the "koolaid" that some of the admins wish everyone to believe[21:01:00] <Thom_Holwerda> i dont believe in the peope-only-try-once mantra.[21:01:10] <gotaku> I wonder if I should play the "Why we aren't Linux" card.[21:01:15] <umccullough> i sort of wonder if it's not a way to cover up the lack of time and resources to REALLY promote it[21:01:20] <brecht> Thom_Holwerda: I stopped trying out Linux :)[21:01:34] <Thom_Holwerda> people are lie flies[21:01:38] <Thom_Holwerda> like*[21:01:43] <umccullough> brecht, i too stopped trying linux about 5 years ago...but now i'm running ubuntu 7.04[21:01:44] <Thom_Holwerda> we will also continually bang against the glass.[21:01:45] <umccullough> (not on this box)[21:01:50] <brecht> gotaku: I think of Haiku as putting the fun back into computer[21:01:53] <geist> or like birds[21:02:01] <brecht> computing[21:02:04] <geist> occasionally we bang against the glass and break our neck[21:02:05] *** TLF has quit IRC[21:02:12] <geist> and flop around on the patio[21:02:22] <umccullough> i wish i could stay and participate in this conversation more :([21:02:25] *** TLF has joined #haiku[21:02:31] <umccullough> but i gotta go outside because my daughter is begging me[21:02:31] <brecht> umccullough: I'm running PC-BSD (KDE), and I hate it's complexity and slowness[21:02:38] <gotaku> People keep trying to shoehorn Linux onto the desktop.[21:02:46] <Thom_Holwerda> ohno[21:02:48] <brecht> and the chaos of the unix desktop[21:02:51] <Thom_Holwerda> linux + desktop in one sentence[21:03:06] <Thom_Holwerda> id better call 911[21:03:08] <gotaku> Right now I'm using Ubuntu and while it is usable sure, it's a pain in the ass.[21:03:09] <umccullough> brecht, then Haiku stands a chance! - start promoting it[21:03:20] <umccullough> stop hiding Haiku...[21:03:28] <umccullough> get some of those "linux desktop" fans to switch[21:03:37] <brecht> umccullough: I'd like to develop something for it (or some part of Haiku itself), but I've got no time for the moment[21:03:42] <umccullough> bye[21:03:47] <brecht> hopefully after the exams...[21:03:48] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20908 /haiku/trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): added 'udp_endpoints' debugger command.[21:04:27] <brecht> what attracts me in haiku is it's amiga-likeness[21:04:37] <brecht> it's small, fast and simple[21:04:40] <brecht> but modern[21:04:53] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[21:05:40] <gotaku> Haiku rocks seems more aimed at the people who are already developers showing how far things have come.[21:05:48] <gotaku> Wasn't it made for a WalterCon?[21:06:10] <brecht> what's the status on the BeBook thing?[21:07:43] <Dr_Evil> reading all this here written during the last 10 minutes somehow didn't help me much...[21:08:22] <brecht> Dr_Evil: well, it's IRC ;)[21:08:30] *** pyCube has quit IRC[21:08:42] <brecht> I think I missed your question[21:09:30] <Dr_Evil> I didnt ask[21:10:01] <Begasus> [21:04] <umccullough> get some of those "linux desktop" fans to switch ... switch to what umccullough? ;)[21:10:20] <gotaku> Psst... Haiku...[21:10:33] <Begasus> ;)[21:10:34] *** emitrax__ has quit IRC[21:10:38] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[21:10:45] <brecht> Begasus:I think I ened up on your website today... hello fellow belgian :)[21:10:50] <Begasus> a bit early to be using it now ;)[21:10:57] <Sloar> does vasper ever come in here?[21:10:59] <Begasus> heya brecht![21:11:08] <Begasus> long time since I've seen him Sloar[21:11:10] <gotaku> Begasus: We ere talking about developers.[21:11:33] <gotaku> were[21:11:52] <brecht> gotaku: I've been pondering about a FreeBSD ports-like system for BeOS/Haiku[21:12:05] <Begasus> ah k gotaku .. mf then ;)[21:12:30] <brecht> I'm not sure if it fits with the ... um... psychology of Haiku though[21:12:33] <stargater> who is brecht ?[21:12:44] <Begasus> a Belgian stargater[21:12:47] <Begasus> ;)[21:12:56] <Begasus> brecht what regian?[21:13:09] <brecht> Genk... but I study in Leuven[21:13:11] <stargater> ah ok and he is new in the beos/haiku world ?[21:13:30] <Thom_Holwerda> another belgian[21:13:32] <brecht> stargater: I've been following, but from a distance[21:13:43] <brecht> Thom_Holwerda: how many are there so far? :)[21:14:05] <brecht> following the BeOS/Haikue developments[21:14:16] <Begasus> Genk ... that's almost in the neighberhoud brecht ;)[21:14:17] <Thom_Holwerda> more than is humanly acceptable by the geneva convetions.[21:14:18] <Thom_Holwerda> ;)[21:14:19] <stargater> brecht: :-) ok but now is the distance time over :-) and you will code the os rocket...now[21:14:49] <brecht> what's an os rocket? :)[21:14:56] <stargater> haiku[21:15:01] <brecht> Begasus: yes? where are you from?[21:15:01] <Begasus> living in Lanklaar myself .. but I'm original from As brecht[21:15:09] <brecht> ah[21:15:36] <brecht> that's close indeed[21:15:54] <brecht> but I have to check where Lanklaar is situated...[21:16:02] <Begasus> well still live just outside of As[21:16:16] <Begasus> from As to Dilsen if you know that brecht[21:16:29] <brecht> oh yes[21:16:34] <brecht> more or less :)[21:16:43] <Begasus> ;)[21:16:57] <Begasus> so you've been following BeOS/Haiku for a while?[21:17:12] <brecht> yeah[21:17:27] <brecht> I was a long-time Amiga user (UAE in the last years)[21:17:36] <stargater> cool[21:17:41] <brecht> then gave up on it, and settled for Windows[21:17:59] <stargater> brecht: what can you do for haiku, whats your develop intresting ?[21:18:11] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[21:18:12] <brecht> Win2k wasn't so bad anymore, albeit huge and with it's usual annoyances[21:18:30] <Begasus> ever went to one of the amiga meetings in Zwijndrecht brecht?[21:18:33] <brecht> but with Vista on the horizon I decided to get out of the way[21:18:34] <Begasus> near Antwerpen[21:19:11] <brecht> so instead of Linux, I'm giving PC-BSD a go (I am quite pleased with FreeBSD on a little server I run from the basement at home)[21:19:38] <Begasus> ah cool ...[21:19:51] <brecht> stargater: nothing in particular... I don't have much experience, except for some attempt at writing an OpenGL game in C++[21:19:51] <Begasus> haven't looked at FreeBSD for quiet some time myself[21:20:33] <brecht> Begasus: I installed it a couple of months ago, had some major problems with nvidia drivers at first, and some small unresolved problems now[21:20:35] <Begasus> w00t ... any experiance in SDL brecht?[21:20:50] <brecht> but KDE and the whole unix thing is just annoying me[21:20:53] <brecht> Begasus: yes, indeed :)[21:21:06] <brecht> well, very basic, because it's mostly OpenGL[21:21:45] <brecht> stargater: since I can't find a working MSN client for BeOS, I was thinking about perhaps writing one[21:21:47] <Begasus> cool !![21:22:03] <Begasus> brecht .. there is im_kit[21:22:05] <Begasus> Bme[21:22:13] <Begasus> but they run on BONE[21:22:39] <brecht> as that's something I use, but I can imaging an IM client is something *a lot* of people use[21:22:55] <brecht> Begasus: I tried im_kit once... but I never got it working[21:22:58] <brecht> I will try again[21:23:04] <Begasus> using im_kit for I can't remember how long here ;)[21:23:19] <brecht> and I think I couldn't find Bme[21:23:33] <gotaku> Does Haiku have an IRC client yet?[21:23:37] <brecht> is im_kit being developed?[21:23:43] <brecht> gotaku: I'm using this "Vision" thing :)[21:23:48] <Begasus> I could mail you a bone version here brecht[21:23:59] <stargater> gotaku: haiku can used "Vision"[21:24:02] <Begasus> for IRC most of us use Vision ;)[21:24:03] <gotaku> Vision isn't open source.[21:24:13] <siarzhuk> anybody working on usb cdce network driver?[21:24:14] <gotaku> We can't include it with Haiku.[21:24:14] <brecht> but it works[21:24:18] <Begasus> the source is open[21:24:24] <Begasus> you can find it on BeBits[21:24:40] <Begasus> maybe not in the license you'd like ;)[21:24:42] <gotaku> What;s the license?[21:24:43] <stargater> brecht: you can help by OpenGL (Software) in haiku :-)[21:24:44] <gotaku> ah.[21:24:49] <MYOB> erm, Vision is opensource[21:24:50] <MYOB> its MPL[21:24:56] <Begasus> don't know if it's GPL or what ... you should check that[21:24:59] <Begasus> ah k thnx MYOB ;)[21:25:00] <gotaku> MPL?[21:25:05] <brecht> Mozilla?[21:25:12] <Begasus> multiple license ;)[21:25:15] * Begasus ducks[21:25:26] <MYOB> Mozilla[21:25:44] <stargater> Mother Paper License[21:25:46] * brecht wins ;)[21:26:05] <Begasus> lol stargater[21:26:13] <stargater> brecht: 10 Points[21:26:14] <gotaku> Why not add Vision to the codebase then?[21:26:28] <stargater> gotaku: haiku is a OS[21:26:40] <stargater> Not a pool of software[21:26:46] <gotaku> Uh.[21:26:59] <stargater> and haiku is not in a Beta pharse[21:27:08] <gotaku> An os is a pool of software... the kernel alone is useless.[21:27:18] <stargater> it is (pre)Alpha[21:27:19] <Begasus> ;)[21:27:54] <stargater> gotaku: i think not so, this is a Unix think (kernel+ pool of software = OS)[21:27:54] <MYOB> gotaku how many OSs come with an IRC client?[21:27:59] <MYOB> erm. none....[21:28:15] <gotaku> Ubuntu has xchat pre-installed doesn't it?[21:28:28] <MYOB> thats not an OS, its a distro[21:28:38] <gotaku> Define OS.[21:28:50] <brecht> oh dear :)[21:29:00] <stargater> gotaku: beos is a round system, kernel and app_server. input_server etc. works hand in hand and cames from a hand[21:29:13] <MYOB> gotaku in the case of GNU/Linux, its the kernel plus GNU tools[21:29:37] <MYOB> in the case of Windows, MacOS, BeOS or one of the BSDs that is actually standalone, its what comes in the default image[21:29:40] <stargater> OS = Operation System , sound not the same as a Distrubution from xyz[21:29:51] <Dr_Evil> whats going wrong here?[21:29:55] <Dr_Evil> Res1 generated/objects/haiku/x86/release/preferences/print/Printers[21:29:55] <Dr_Evil> Chmod1 generated/objects/haiku/x86/release/preferences/print/Printers[21:29:56] <Dr_Evil> SetType1 generated/objects/haiku/x86/release/preferences/print/Printers[21:29:57] <Dr_Evil> MimeSet1 generated/objects/haiku/x86/release/preferences/print/Printers[21:29:57] <Dr_Evil> mimeset: "generated/objects/haiku/x86/release/preferences/print/Printers": No such file or directory[21:29:58] <Dr_Evil> SetVersion1 generated/objects/haiku/x86/release/preferences/print/Printers[21:29:59] <Dr_Evil> L[21:30:36] <Dr_Evil> No such file or directory is printed for a couple of apps/preferences, and they don't get an icon[21:30:40] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20909 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/protocols/tcp/ (5 files): added 'tcp_endpoints' and 'tcp_endpoint' debugger commands.[21:30:41] <brecht> ugh, VLC for BeOS can't play network streams?[21:30:56] <stargater> missing icon[21:31:10] <MYOB> brecht yes it can[21:31:16] <MYOB> just has no GUI for it...[21:31:24] <gotaku> If that's the case why does Haiku currently have things like icon-o-matic and media player?[21:31:28] <MYOB> I was watching France24 TV earlier[21:31:32] <MYOB> gotaku because BeOS R5 had them[21:31:35] <Begasus> just grab the link in Net+ and drag it to VLC[21:31:41] <MYOB> because Windows/MacOS also have media players[21:31:42] <MYOB> et al[21:32:24] <stargater> MYOB: i remamber MS and IE = thats not so good for other browser , ed Netscape[21:32:26] <MYOB> brecht VLC for BeOS is going to undergo a serious change of direction soon...[21:32:36] <brecht> MYOB: ok, that's all I needed to know :)[21:32:42] <brecht> (the GUI thing)[21:32:45] <gotaku> change of direction?[21:33:09] <MYOB> gotaku it needs to move from being VLC to being VLC-based[21:33:17] <MYOB> as in seperation of core and UI[21:33:19] <gotaku> Gotcha.[21:33:20] <stargater> beos is a technical base and have more place for other software and inovation as a other OS[21:33:21] <mmu_man> ugh[21:33:26] <mmu_man> I do like the current UI[21:33:49] <MYOB> meaning the GUI will need to be rewritten. Although it won't look much different[21:33:54] <brecht> oh, is the wxWidgets BeOS port being developed?[21:33:57] <MYOB> except a far saner preferences UI[21:33:59] <MYOB> brecht no[21:34:04] <MYOB> VLC has dropped WX anyway[21:34:08] <mmu_man> mms://live.france24.com/france24_en.wsx[21:34:15] <stargater> ed. you can make alternative Deskbar ore make other addons,, what ever you need...[21:34:35] <mmu_man> MYOB what do they use then ? GTK ? *shrug*[21:34:46] <MYOB> QT4[21:34:50] <mmu_man> ugh[21:34:51] <brecht> MYOB: I think wx is important (not for VLC in particular)[21:34:59] <gotaku> I don't thing we want to support all these toolkits anyway... that's why Linux has it's GUI problems in the first place.[21:35:00] <mmu_man> oh well, I was wondering abotu a netive Qt port :)[21:35:02] <MYOB> brecht it'd get us Xara anyway...[21:35:03] *** pyCube has joined #haiku[21:35:10] * Dr_Evil goes back baking applepie...[21:35:16] <brecht> xara?[21:35:26] <mmu_man> (by native I mean QButton =BButton (uses one at least)[21:35:27] *** Dr_Evil has quit IRC[21:35:30] <gotaku> All Haiku's GUI stuff should use native widgets not abstracted by a toolkit.[21:35:41] <MYOB> gotaku WX uses native widges[21:35:43] <mmu_man> apple pie hmm[21:35:43] <pyCube> nonsense[21:35:48] <mmu_man> shame it can't be DDCed[21:35:49] <MYOB> QT can use native[21:35:51] <mmu_man> DCCed[21:35:54] <MYOB> GTK.... can't[21:36:07] <MYOB> brecht 3D design app[21:36:10] *** TTRanger has joined #haiku[21:36:23] <gotaku> MYOB: At it's core yes... I have less of a problem with wxwidgets but it's still a needless abstraction.[21:36:25] <MYOB> opensourced a while back[21:36:26] <mmu_man> MYOB does Qt uses windows controls on win ??[21:36:27] <Begasus> ow you were gone TTRanger?[21:36:30] <Begasus> tse ...[21:36:34] <mmu_man> thought it was like GTK[21:36:37] <TTRanger> sigh[21:36:40] <MYOB> mmu_man IIRC it doesn't, but it does on MacOS I think[21:36:45] <pyCube> wx, qt, gtk might not be ideal for haiku principle.. but having them available for haiku is critical.. imo[21:36:47] <mmu_man> (just give me a canvas and I'll do it)[21:36:54] <Begasus> k ... going down here ...[21:36:58] <TTRanger> Begasus The good news is, I'm back! :-P[21:37:06] <mmu_man> MYOB ah, so at least it's possible[21:37:24] <mmu_man> besides Qt is (surprisingly) similar to BeAPI designwise[21:37:34] <stargater> window, unix(linux,bsd,mac os x etc) need a haikuAPI Toolkit :)[21:37:50] <Begasus> okies TTRanger ...[21:37:54] <Begasus> I'm off :P[21:38:01] <Begasus> take care peeps[21:38:06] <Begasus> cya'll tomorrow[21:38:15] <stargater> cu Begasus[21:38:15] <Begasus> brecht hope to see you again ;)[21:38:20] <Begasus> cu stargater[21:38:20] <brecht> ciao[21:39:22] <gotaku> What's the Haiku foundation position on sponsorship?[21:39:34] <gotaku> If we were able to find any.[21:39:40] <brecht> stargater: that's not a silly idea[21:39:54] * JonathanThompson will allow gotaku to be his sponsor :P[21:39:56] *** Begasus has quit IRC[21:39:59] <MYOB> gotaku I don't think the issue has ever been raised[21:40:01] <JonathanThompson> Just send money :P[21:40:03] <brecht> I've been thinking of having Haiku (the top layer) run on top of Windows for example[21:40:10] <MYOB> I'm sure it would be considered and probably accepted though[21:40:22] <brecht> it could allow people to try it out with little effort[21:40:27] <JonathanThompson> brecht, that'd be a major thing to do.[21:40:35] *** evdubs has quit IRC[21:40:36] <brecht> JonathanThompson: I'm not saying it isn't :)[21:40:41] <JonathanThompson> Do you mean running out of a file on the filesystem?[21:40:54] <brecht> something like that[21:40:57] <JonathanThompson> Like BeOS 5 Personal Edition?[21:41:00] *** mats has quit IRC[21:41:15] <stargater> brecht: :-)[21:41:18] <brecht> no[21:41:29] <brecht> JonathanThompson: as an application[21:41:31] <JonathanThompson> The easiest solution would be to create a VMWare Player or something like that.[21:41:43] <JonathanThompson> that's an interesting thought, brecht.[21:41:59] <brecht> JonathanThompson: it would probably be a nightmare to code[21:42:17] <JonathanThompson> Windows uses PE for the object file format, and Haiku uses ELF.[21:42:20] <brecht> well, you could use Windows' scheduling[21:42:21] <JonathanThompson> That's a major one right there.[21:42:25] <stargater> brecht: HaikuAPI_lib.so[21:42:27] <gotaku> This locking in the bfs file system is confusing...[21:42:30] <JonathanThompson> Not to mention scheduler issues would be fun.[21:42:38] <brecht> but that might nog be very good for showing off Haiku :)[21:42:57] <JonathanThompson> It wouldn't be a good representation of how Haiku performs, no.[21:43:04] <brecht> JonathanThompson: but I'm thinking along the lines of run-anywhere like Java apps[21:43:24] <brecht> but the difference is that you would start your Haiku desktop in Windows and go from there[21:43:31] <JonathanThompson> You're definitely talking a major project outside of using something like a VMWare player image :)[21:43:40] <pyCube> "...like java." is ALWAYS a band way to end a statement[21:43:41] <brecht> the user could copy his installation to a native Haiku partition afterwards[21:43:46] <pyCube> bad[21:44:04] <brecht> pyCube: hehe.. like Java, but faster :)[21:44:09] * JonathanThompson suspects brecht's idea would be intolerable on this system[21:44:14] <brecht> JonathanThompson: I'm just dreaming of course[21:44:36] <brecht> energy is better spent on other things[21:44:45] <JonathanThompson> Indeed, when that's the dream, I'd agree.[21:44:57] <JonathanThompson> VMWare is likely a much better, more portable choice.[21:45:08] <stargater> i think KDE with the new kdeLibs is a good way, to bring application outside from kde desktop to other os without a completly desktop[21:45:19] <brecht> anothing thing, that's somewhat related is cross-platform support[21:45:32] <brecht> JonathanThompson: not to mention far easier[21:45:32] <stargater> the same way can i see later for haiku[21:45:34] *** Euver has joined #haiku[21:46:02] <pyCube> so is anybody in the usa gonna be an honorary immigrant and refuse to work tomorrow?[21:46:14] <gotaku> ?[21:46:21] *** TLF has quit IRC[21:46:34] <brecht> complete platform independence like Java is great, but it comes at a price, speed[21:46:41] * JonathanThompson awaits details of brecht's "Haiku on Windows (HOW)" and then the better reason, "WHY" :)[21:46:47] <stargater> pyCube: you develop in python ?[21:47:01] <pyCube> stargater: yes[21:47:17] <brecht> it should be possible to compile from some kind of byte-code to machine-code on installation of an application[21:47:27] <umccullough> ugh, i guess i need to talk much clearer - people often take my statements out of context ;)[21:47:28] * brecht loves Python, so far[21:47:29] * JonathanThompson pukes at brecht's suggestion[21:47:36] <stargater> nice, haiku py have missing pythinker[21:47:58] <brecht> JonathanThompson: sorry :)[21:48:08] *** kr1stof_ has joined #haiku[21:48:09] <brecht> JonathanThompson: the why is simple[21:48:14] <JonathanThompson> It'd be completely intolerable on this machine :)[21:48:18] <brecht> userbase[21:48:21] *** the_webers_inc has joined #haiku[21:48:23] *** Kernel86 has joined #Haiku[21:48:26] <pyCube> stargater: ii am just waiting for a py-haiku api bindings[21:48:40] <JonathanThompson> How many people do you know that would adopt something non-native that's painfully slow?[21:48:57] <JonathanThompson> I'm not convinced your idea is based on good information, brecht.[21:49:38] <stargater> brecht: but you can make a GL benchmark app for haiku, linux etc[21:49:39] <pyCube> JonathanThompson: i know.. haiku should be implemented as a web app! :-p[21:49:46] <stargater> software remdering[21:49:52] <JonathanThompson> I think it'd be doomed to fail to achieve what you're hoping it would.[21:49:52] <JonathanThompson> I've used java apps that I'd rather do without, rather than have that app.[21:50:15] * JonathanThompson slaps pyCube with a large salmon from a nearby creek[21:50:20] *** the_webers_inc has quit IRC[21:50:25] *** emitrax__ has joined #haiku[21:50:30] * [Beta] hugs Java[21:50:33] <brecht> JonathanThompson: In principle it can be faster than virtualisation[21:50:42] * stargater say hello to [Beta][21:50:47] <[Beta]> hello[21:50:53] <JonathanThompson> In practice the startup times would completely blow your theory out of the water.[21:51:02] <brecht> JonathanThompson: think of it as something like WINE[21:51:02] <JonathanThompson> Assuming it did a good job of it to start with.[21:51:13] <JonathanThompson> Yes, another reason to abort before you begin :P[21:51:34] <brecht> WINE is quite fast[21:51:44] <JonathanThompson> At least with VMWare, it will most likely run everything, even if not too fast 100% of the time.[21:51:56] <[Beta]> does anyone here use WINE regularly?[21:52:05] <Thom_Holwerda> real men dont virtualise.[21:52:21] <[Beta]> I can only think of googleearth (using wine libs, not wine)[21:52:29] <JonathanThompson> The only thing going for a WINE-like approach is that Haiku is much simpler than Windows.[21:52:43] <pyCube> Thom_Holwerda: except for when i comes to social interaction[21:52:46] <brecht> JonathanThompson: AROS can run on top of Linux[21:52:49] <JonathanThompson> That, and the fact that it is completely open sourced.[21:52:53] <brecht> IIRC[21:53:38] <_hugo> man, if all these text lines in IRC were instead lines of code, that would be sweet. :-)[21:53:56] <JonathanThompson> I think before you truly consider that option, brecht, make sure Haiku runs natively first in a complete form :)[21:53:57] <umccullough> _hugo, but would it run?[21:54:10] <_hugo> umccullough: eheh[21:54:17] <brecht> you can implement have the Haiku app do the scheduling... when not running many other windows apps, it's performance would be good[21:54:18] <umccullough> _hugo, it's a known fact that IRC is where people BS mostly ;)[21:54:26] <brecht> JonathanThompson: of course[21:54:30] *** kr1stof has quit IRC[21:54:36] <brecht> brecht: remember, it's just a theory :)[21:54:49] <_hugo> umccullough: sure[21:59:39] <brecht> http://aros.sourceforge.net/documentation/users/using.php#using-aros-hosted-on-linux-or-freebsd[22:00:22] <stargater> oh oh i dont like a host on xyz[22:04:41] <umccullough> is there a way to unload and reload drivers?[22:04:43] <umccullough> in beos?[22:05:00] <PulkoMandy> +++[22:05:06] *** PulkoMandy has quit IRC[22:05:33] *** Jixt has quit IRC[22:05:59] <umccullough> hrm, guess a reboot isn't too painful :P[22:06:26] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[22:09:06] <brecht> hrm, still can't boot from my HD[22:09:27] <brecht> I suppose no boot experts are in today? :)[22:09:39] <gotaku> I can boot Haiku but my keyboard and mouse don't work ;)[22:09:52] <brecht> USB?[22:10:12] <gotaku> Yes, OHCI[22:11:06] <gotaku> All other controllers are supported except OHCI :([22:12:57] <Thom_Holwerda> seriously, if i get ONE more translation assignment like this i SWEAR i will go nuts[22:13:02] <Thom_Holwerda> as you were.[22:14:07] <DeadYak> translation assignment?[22:14:10] <gotaku> translation assignment?[22:14:18] <gotaku> Er, what he said.[22:14:21] <Thom_Holwerda> totally off topic.[22:14:33] <Thom_Holwerda> i need to translate a piece of dutch text into english[22:14:36] <Thom_Holwerda> which is easy[22:14:47] <Thom_Holwerda> were it not for the fact that the author apparantly was a total nutjob[22:14:53] <Thom_Holwerda> this isnt dutch im reading[22:15:03] <DeadYak> ah joy[22:15:08] <DeadYak> hahaha[22:15:23] <geist> oh man, i recently set my linux box to mail me whenever there's an unauthorized login attempt[22:15:29] <geist> like 1500 a day[22:15:31] <DeadYak> big mistake?[22:15:32] <geist> it's better not to know[22:15:35] <DeadYak> ouch.[22:15:47] <Thom_Holwerda> geist: pardon?[22:15:52] <Thom_Holwerda> 1500 login attempts?[22:15:56] <geist> yep[22:16:02] <geist> constantly[22:16:17] <Thom_Holwerda> its a server or what?[22:16:20] <geist> yep[22:16:46] *** rgb has joined #haiku[22:16:56] <Thom_Holwerda> does it like contain the location of the holy grail in a file or something?[22:17:05] <geist> nope[22:17:17] <brecht> geist: I noticed that too on my server[22:17:21] <DeadYak> geist: is this the one that runs newos.org?[22:17:25] <brecht> it's scary[22:17:27] <geist> same thing with my home linux box. as soon as something finds a port 22 open, there are just tons of attempts[22:17:40] <geist> it's usually batches of 20 or 30 or so form the same ip[22:17:51] <geist> probably zombie machines. it's never the same address[22:17:56] <Thom_Holwerda> geist: do you have a guide somewhere on how to find that out, or how to set it emailing me?[22:18:00] <Thom_Holwerda> ill see what my laptop gets[22:18:03] <Thom_Holwerda> it runs ubuntu[22:18:10] *** MikeW has joined #haiku[22:18:11] <geist> no, it's some gentoo thing[22:18:21] <Thom_Holwerda> ok, ill google for it one of these days[22:18:22] <geist> it's a feature of the logger[22:18:42] <geist> metalog[22:18:51] <DeadYak> how does metalog compare to syslog-ng?[22:19:15] <geist> anyway, i feel pretty safe, i have my sshd set to public/private key only[22:19:52] <DeadYak> nice[22:20:57] <geist> looks like basically there's a block in the metalog.conf file[22:20:58] <geist> Password failures :[22:20:59] <geist> regex = "(password|login|authentication)\s+(fail|invalid)" regex = "(failed|invalid)\s+(password|login|authentication|user)" regex = "ILLEGAL ROOT LOGIN" logdir = "/var/log/pwdfail" command = "/usr/local/sbin/mail_pwd_failures.sh"[22:21:04] <geist> er, damn. has tabs[22:21:09] <DeadYak> ah[22:21:12] <geist> well, anyway, sort of like that[22:21:19] <DeadYak> ok, don't think syslog-ng lets me do a filter rule like that[22:21:20] <_hugo> geist: quick vm question, have a couple mins?[22:21:28] <geist> and then in mail_pwd_failures.sh I have it dump it in a mail to myself[22:21:42] <geist> _hugo: kay[22:22:19] <_hugo> geist: i have an area that is fully locked, and want to release its pages, any pointers? i.e. i want to be able to switch an area from locked to unlocked and vice versa[22:22:36] <_hugo> and being able to know if unlocked->lock is possible[22:22:42] <geist> that wasn't possible in newos[22:22:50] <_hugo> ah[22:22:50] <geist> someone may have added that functionality in the haiku vm[22:22:59] <_hugo> i looked in the vm code and only saw that stuff in page fault handling[22:23:08] <brecht> on FreeBSD it's logged to /var/log/login IIRC[22:23:08] <geist> generally the answer is no[22:23:29] <geist> areas are treated as a single unit, with the same flags[22:23:41] <_hugo> geist: do you think its a bad idea? i would like to have the pages the slab is using locked, while having the empty slabs unlocked[22:23:43] <geist> why would you want to change it's lock?[22:23:56] <geist> what would that accomplish?[22:24:11] <_hugo> i just want to be sure that when i hand a object, it is in memory[22:24:18] <_hugo> a physical page is mapped to it[22:24:19] <geist> oh, I see. individual pages in the area as unlocked versus others? no, that's not possible[22:24:34] <_hugo> it could be the whole area, no problem, they arent very large[22:24:37] <geist> without changing the vm to track per page, and then that makes things somewhat more complicated[22:25:06] <geist> you can make it somewhat easier by using the intermediate 'lock' type[22:25:14] <geist> where it wires the pages *after* they've been demand paged[22:25:28] <geist> but i have a feeling that haiku's layering of the beos semantics 'hid' that feature of the newos vm[22:25:36] <_hugo> basically when the slab goes to the empty list, i want to release its physical pages, while getting it from the empty list, get pages for it[22:25:44] <geist> all those bits used to be distinct, and you can mix n' match what you want. haiku has a single enum[22:25:57] <geist> _hugo: that's probably a bad idea[22:26:06] <geist> or at leas tyou should have a bit on each slab that lets you disable that[22:26:13] <_hugo> yes, optional[22:26:29] <geist> for the same reasons as before. something in the vm releases an object, which then causes the slab to go empty, which then causes the slab code to reenter the VM[22:26:52] <_hugo> right, the recursion is handled differently[22:27:03] <geist> but anyway, no the vm doesn't let you set per page[22:27:17] <gotaku> Silly question, but what is a slab?[22:27:22] <DeadYak> what if you make an area that's the size of a page?[22:27:23] <geist> but anyway, freeing pages like that is really a second level optimization[22:27:28] <_hugo> but note that im not looking into having this functionality per page, but per area[22:27:34] <geist> many many kernels in the world *never* return any internal pages[22:27:42] <geist> since they tend to grow to a particular size and stay there[22:27:47] <_hugo> geist: physical ones?[22:27:51] <geist> right[22:28:07] <geist> _hugo: well, okay if you intend to do it per area why dont you just delete the area?[22:28:21] <_hugo> if i delete the area i loose the half constructed objects[22:28:22] <geist> having some sort of 'throw away all the pages in this area' is a much more doable solution[22:28:25] <_hugo> s/loose/lose/[22:28:37] <geist> well yeah[22:28:49] <_hugo> i would rather release areas/empty slabs on memory pressure[22:28:53] <_hugo> or near memory pressure[22:29:03] <geist> I dont get it. you want to mark pages that 'freed' objects are on to be pageable?[22:29:09] <_hugo> yep[22:29:19] <geist> yeah, that would require quite a bit of vm work[22:29:26] <geist> since you'd have to put the area back into some sort of weird state[22:29:44] <geist> 'allow me to be paged, but if I get touched, force bring me in and go to a locked state'[22:29:47] <_hugo> i was looking at the vm code, and i could go and force a remap of each of page[22:29:56] <_hugo> well, this change can be explicit[22:30:04] <_hugo> i.e. lock_area() and unlock_area()[22:30:16] <geist> sure, but what does 'unlock' mean?[22:30:23] <geist> precisely[22:30:37] <_hugo> unlock just means that the physical pages that are currently wired to the area[22:30:40] <geist> (btw, I really really hate the beos naming semantics for this, I thought it was far clearer in newos)[22:30:41] <_hugo> can be reused[22:30:56] <_hugo> i.e. they get unlocked[22:31:07] <geist> 'reused' in what sense? they are free to be completely trashed, or can be reused if they're first written to swap?[22:31:20] <DeadYak> sounds like the latter[22:31:25] <_hugo> right[22:31:29] <_hugo> they get pageable[22:31:32] <geist> in other words, pagable[22:31:36] *** Mazon is now known as mazon[22:31:40] <_hugo> very much as if the area was created with B_NO_LOCK[22:32:00] <geist> but, the first time you need one of them you would call 'lock_area' on the entire thing?[22:32:13] <_hugo> i create areas locked, since when i create it, i'll need it[22:32:14] <geist> and thus the vm would have to re-wire all the pages, bring them back from swap?[22:32:24] <_hugo> right, but lock_area() would do that[22:32:27] <_hugo> and could fail[22:32:32] <geist> could fail?[22:32:33] <_hugo> if there were not enough physical pages[22:32:39] <_hugo> to remap the whole area[22:32:55] <geist> well, now that's a totally different can of worms[22:33:05] <_hugo> well, its a possibility :-)[22:33:26] <geist> so in other words it's more like 'turn this area into a locked state, unless i really have to page out other stuff (which is mostly likely)'[22:33:48] *** arachnist has quit IRC[22:33:53] <_hugo> i would say 'turn this are into a locked state, period'[22:34:03] <geist> if that's the case there is no way to fail[22:34:20] <geist> the VM has to find n pages of physical memory, and force other stuff to page out to get it in[22:34:21] <_hugo> well, when i create an area if full lock[22:34:24] <_hugo> cant it fail?[22:34:46] <geist> it can fail catastrophically[22:34:53] <geist> ie, not enough pages in the system, panic the kernel[22:34:58] <_hugo> ah[22:35:11] <_hugo> a bit drastic, eheh. i would rather have a B_NO_PAGES return value[22:35:12] <_hugo> or something like that[22:35:13] <DeadYak> I realize this is a crazy edge case, but what if so many pages are wired that there aren't enough pageable pages to swap out to make room for the wired area you want?[22:35:27] <geist> sure, but 99% of the code that requests a locked area needs it Right Then[22:35:27] <_hugo> DeadYak: right, i just want it to fail smoothly[22:35:29] <DeadYak> ugh I need to find a better way to word that[22:35:31] <geist> and has no tolerance for failure[22:35:36] <_hugo> the slab would just return NULL, i.e. no objects available[22:35:48] <geist> if you wire all of physical memory, you're hosed.[22:35:53] <_hugo> if the object requester really needed it, it will panic[22:35:59] <geist> it's really only supposed to be used for extreme edge cases, and kernel code/data[22:36:05] <DeadYak> right, but if you're calling on the slab to give you a new object, and you can't give one, then you're screwed[22:36:11] <DeadYak> yeah[22:36:23] <geist> _hugo: well, it doesn't panic inside the create_area, I'm sure, but most code that gets a failuyre from that will probably just panic[22:36:27] <_hugo> well, sometimes not having an object is something you can work out[22:36:32] <_hugo> for instance in the network code[22:36:41] <_hugo> geist: right, thats im looking for[22:36:47] <geist> and if the slab ran the system out of pages, even if the slab can deal with it, you're basically locked up at that point[22:36:59] <geist> because there are no free pages for the rest of the system to use then[22:37:05] <_hugo> sure, but thats another problem[22:37:17] <_hugo> that is a real out of memory case[22:37:29] <geist> but that's what I mean, by the time the 'cant create a wire area' problem shows up you're already in a bad place[22:37:36] <geist> therefore it's kind of moot[22:37:37] <DeadYak> when are you not going to have a real 'out of memory case' when you're trying to do this?[22:38:19] <_hugo> well, im considering more complex cases (which the current code doesnt contemplate), like priority holding. i.e. some page holder has an higher priority over another[22:38:28] <geist> anyway, i'd not worry about your optimization right now[22:38:32] <_hugo> but discussing this is a bit moot now. i would just like to lock/unlock an area[22:38:32] <_hugo> :-)[22:38:43] *** rgb has quit IRC[22:38:53] <geist> if needing to temporarily unlock areas is going to be making a substantial difference, we're probaby alllocating far far too much memory in the kernel[22:39:10] <geist> since at best we should be only grabbing a few pages here and there, maybe a couple of megabytes for the net statck[22:39:23] <mmu_man> hmm[22:39:38] <mmu_man> BView parent = sb->Parent();[22:39:46] <_hugo> i would rather have it balance itself out. i dont think it is an optimization[22:39:47] <mmu_man> if (parent->LockLooper) {[22:39:51] <mmu_man> not really safe[22:40:02] <geist> i see it as a 2nd or 3rd order system optimization[22:40:04] <DeadYak> mmu_man: um....yeah :P[22:40:14] <mmu_man> but I fixed it by locking sb and taking parent... but then I remove sb and UnlockLooper() on a removed sb =)[22:40:21] <geist> ie, gee, since I'm not using these pages, lets let me loan it out to the rest f the system[22:40:37] <geist> versus just hoarding them yourself[22:40:48] <geist> it's already going to be up to the slab to try to not hog too many pages as it is[22:40:53] <geist> if it's not going to do that, that's a bigger problem to solve[22:41:00] *** silverpower has quit IRC[22:41:11] <mmu_man> ok fixed :)[22:41:13] <_hugo> geist: it tries to get as many pages from the system as the slab users request objects[22:41:20] <geist> obviously, can't help that[22:41:35] <geist> the question is how much freed objects it caches[22:41:48] <geist> probably not any more than the highest watermark it ever got to[22:42:07] <_hugo> right now im following the solaris strategy, which is to release empty slabs on indication of memory pressure (via the VM's low memory handler)[22:42:25] <geist> sure, sounds good[22:42:38] <DeadYak> sure but does solaris page out the slab or destroy it?[22:42:45] <geist> i'm sure it destroys it[22:42:56] <_hugo> on memory pressure it destroys them[22:42:57] <geist> and decommitts the ram[22:43:20] <_hugo> im not sure if it pages them out meanwhile (which was out i was looking for)[22:43:26] <geist> i seriously doubt it[22:43:27] <_hugo> *was what[22:43:37] <geist> even if the lock/unlock area thing were there[22:43:39] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[22:43:46] <DeadYak> I can check if my Solaris Internals book answers that if you want :0[22:43:47] <geist> it has all sorts of effects that may or may not be nice[22:43:48] <DeadYak> er :)[22:44:04] <_hugo> ill leave it as is then for now[22:44:09] <geist> ie, if it unlocks the area for a few seconds, and the memory pressure is so intense that the vm actually uses those pages[22:44:16] <DeadYak> or you could check OpenSolaris's code :)[22:44:23] <geist> then when you come lock it again, you're about to force a pile of disk activity paging it back in[22:44:38] <brecht> ugh, im_kit is odd[22:44:47] <DeadYak> would likely be faster creating a new page and init'ing those objects[22:44:50] <geist> and the kernel is going to go seriously slow while you deal with it[22:44:53] <_hugo> geist: sure, but youll have that anyway, since the physical pages are used, youll need to page in/out other stuff[22:44:55] *** silverpower has joined #haiku[22:45:20] <_hugo> note that VM slabs could be set to always lock or something like that[22:45:21] <geist> that's true, which actually calls for more aggressive caching of freed objects in wired memory[22:45:42] <geist> ie, it's probably better for ht esystem to not even see the ram than the force it to get paged in and out and have the kernel wait for it to complete[22:46:17] <_hugo> well, the caches will release empty slabs on pressure so maybe this is indeed moot[22:46:35] <geist> that's another problem we'll see with the slab (versus the static allocation of the heap right now). allocating a new kernel object may force a pageout, which now means the kernel object allocation is far more nondeterministic than before[22:46:56] <_hugo> a page out of something else you mean[22:47:03] <geist> right[22:47:35] <geist> of course it all comes back to the situation that if you're so tight on memory where you have to actually page something else out to get a new page, then you're already well off the end of the performance curve[22:47:47] <geist> and it's probably really terribly slow at this point[22:47:54] *** Euver has quit IRC[22:48:01] <_hugo> right[22:48:34] <geist> so in other words i wouldn't worry about it too much[22:48:49] <geist> what you might want to do however is let the creators of slabs mark their objects as pageable or not[22:49:12] <geist> most stuff in the kernel will be nonpageable, but stuff like say the temporary buffers for ports or whatnot may be marked pageable[22:49:30] <_hugo> will do, will make that optional[22:49:36] <geist> things that you wont be doing direct IO on (the net buffers will eventually have nics doing direct IO, so those shouldn't be paged)[22:54:09] <Thom_Holwerda> is Charlie Clark on #haiku sometimes?[22:54:35] <stargater> no Thom_Holwerda[22:54:42] <Thom_Holwerda> too bad.[22:54:49] <stargater> why?[22:54:54] <DeadYak> not in something like 2-3 years[22:55:04] <stargater> mail him[22:55:21] <stargater> ore tel him[22:55:34] <Thom_Holwerda> just asking, he seems a bit... cinical on the m-l about me nevr attentind BeGeistert before[22:55:40] <MYOB> he used to beshare MANY years ago[22:55:47] <Thom_Holwerda> never attending*[22:55:50] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20910 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/protocols/ipv4/ipv4.cpp: use OpenHashTable in IPv4's MulticastGroups.[22:55:51] <MYOB> Thom_Holwerda I think he sees it as a rite of passage[22:55:54] <gotaku> Can someone explain to me what the slab allocator is for?[22:56:04] <MYOB> I'll be doing it in the autumn unless I'm in New York when its on[22:56:22] <_hugo> gotaku: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_allocator[22:56:42] <Thom_Holwerda> i dont do rites of pasages, its nonsense. if i go to BG/WC i do it for osn[22:56:53] <MYOB> Thom_Holwerda then he'll never see you a 'real' BeOS user :P[22:57:13] <Thom_Holwerda> ive been using beos since.. i dunno really[22:57:19] <Thom_Holwerda> after be's demise, in any case.[22:57:31] <MYOB> I was just either unable to afford to go, in school, or just started a new job for the past, erm, 12 I guess[22:57:43] <MYOB> I know BG was in single figures the first time I knew of its existance[22:58:06] <stargater> BG is cool[22:58:34] <MYOB> isn't much of the business conducted in German?>[22:58:52] <gotaku> _hugo: What was the kernel doing before? Why is a slab allocator needed?[22:59:21] <MYOB> I've only ever been able to actually properly converse in two languages - English and Slovak, but I could read German... until my brains last reformat :P[22:59:32] <MYOB> if I don't see text written down and/or speak a language, its gone basically[22:59:51] <stargater> MYOB: on BG spell and talk more english as german[23:00:02] * [Beta] smirks[23:00:02] <brecht> does mail-it work under BONE?[23:00:16] <stargater> but my english is not so good , so a talk german, but all other speek english[23:01:06] <stargater> mail it whas r4 times (net_server) i think not 100% sure#[23:01:26] <brecht> no sense messing around with it then[23:01:28] <DeadYak> nah, r5 too[23:01:47] <brecht> it somehow first needs to check POP3[23:02:10] <brecht> and fails of course, as I have an IMAP account[23:03:00] *** AndyBe has joined #haiku[23:03:08] <AndyBe> hello guys[23:03:32] <stargater> hi >BeAndy[23:03:47] <AndyBe> mmu_man: short question - can i replace the networkstack from r5 with the one from haiku?[23:04:00] <AndyBe> stargater: hello.[23:04:16] <mmu_man> maybe[23:04:33] <AndyBe> mmu_man: is there any documentation - how to?[23:04:53] <mmu_man> don't think so[23:05:36] <AndyBe> as I remember, i can make a package -right?[23:06:04] <AndyBe> it seams to be stable enough, for normal play with.[23:10:19] <AndyBe> ah, there is a networking kit.....[23:10:22] <AndyBe> in jam.[23:11:20] <mmu_man> happy screwing up your R5 :)[23:12:03] * AndyBe backuped up my virtual beos, allready.[23:12:21] <umccullough> there was a point where haiku's netstack could be tested in r5's userland i think[23:12:35] <MYOB> I think it was the old net_stack[23:12:41] <stargater> http://vbeosa.blogspot.com/[23:12:54] <umccullough> yeah, i'm not certain it's worth messing with[23:13:04] <umccullough> AndyBe, better off trying BONE[23:14:21] <AndyBe> umccullough: I'm know what bone is, but never more looking at this. it isn't the futur. closed source at all.[23:14:43] *** MauriceK has quit IRC[23:14:47] <DeadYak> haiku'[23:14:54] <DeadYak> er haiku's net stack is very unlikely to work on R5[23:15:26] <brecht> goodnight people[23:15:27] *** brecht has quit IRC[23:15:39] <_hugo> haiku's net stack works you[23:16:11] *** petterhj- has quit IRC[23:16:12] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[23:16:40] <AndyBe> hm, with some changes in the source it should compile, not now as I can see.[23:16:56] <DeadYak> compile, maybe, work, doubtful[23:17:02] <DeadYak> R5's kernel still has the broken select, etc. problem[23:17:29] <DeadYak> there's a reason BONE replaced the kernel as well, not just a couple of modules[23:18:04] <AndyBe> DeadYak: you right, of thinking of.[23:19:28] <AndyBe> I tested it a little bit and it is getting more and more stable under haiku.[23:21:41] <Sil2100> Goodnight everyone[23:21:44] *** Sil2100 has quit IRC[23:22:43] <_hugo> AndyBe: we're glad to fix any issues you bump into, just report them to the development site[23:23:31] <AndyBe> _hugo: we will see - just an ide this night. some fixes are needed to get it running.[23:24:37] <AndyBe> There some posix function in the new networkstack that are missing under r5.[23:25:03] <DeadYak> s/some/a lot/[23:25:19] <stargater> more then beos[23:25:22] <_hugo> AndyBe: if you are considering trying it under R5, i think there are bigger issues that exposed API[23:25:37] <_hugo> including, as DeadYak mentioned, select() issues[23:26:18] <AndyBe> So better to take bone and make then a tray of the new networkstack?[23:26:31] <_hugo> better help make haiku better than beos :-)[23:26:57] *** kb7sqi has quit IRC[23:27:22] <gotaku> How are the other SoC projects going? I haven't heard that much about them.[23:27:45] <AndyBe> _hugo: it is better in diffrent things today, behind the bugs of curse.[23:30:25] <_hugo> gotaku: SoC coding starts in the end of May[23:30:35] * AndyBe okey I go to bed.[23:30:45] <gotaku> _hugo: Oh I didn't know that.[23:30:48] *** dr_evil has joined #haiku[23:30:48] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dr_evil[23:31:10] <AndyBe> dr_evil: nice to see you.[23:31:29] <dr_evil> hi[23:31:54] <AndyBe> dr_evil: what do you think about a standard null device for sound. (fall through device)[23:32:21] <gotaku> Is anyone currently working on OCHI support?[23:32:50] <umccullough> OHCI?[23:33:03] <umccullough> as in USB?[23:33:12] <gotaku> Open Host Controller Interface[23:33:15] <gotaku> Yes.[23:33:26] <dr_evil> _hugo that udp was bresult of a complete rebuild from yesterday I think[23:33:46] <_hugo> dr_evil: oh[23:33:49] <AndyBe> dr_evil: - make a ticket for such a thing? - Because that can make fail sound programs included the media server.[23:33:58] <dr_evil> _hugo I've only been working on the ps2 stuff[23:34:07] <umccullough> gotaku, i'm guessing that lack of hardware and docs is what prevented mlotz from working on it...[23:34:24] *** ekdahl has left #haiku[23:34:32] <dr_evil> AndyBe yes a null device would be nice[23:34:52] <_hugo> dr_evil: i still find it strange that your build uses different indexes. i assume you are using gcc 2.95 as well?[23:34:54] <gotaku> umccullough: I have the hardware but don't have any experience in such things.[23:35:02] *** kokito has quit IRC[23:35:10] <AndyBe> dr_evil: but where to implement it? In the media server it self, or as an addon of the mediaplayer?[23:35:23] <umccullough> gotaku, yes - seems like a common theme :([23:35:24] <AndyBe> dr_evil: ups mediaserver sorry[23:35:48] <umccullough> gotaku, i have tons of hardware also that would benefit from driver support in Haiku, but also little know-how or time[23:36:01] <gotaku> umccullough: I could give it a shot though.[23:36:09] <umccullough> gotaku, go for it :)[23:36:32] <AndyBe> dr_evil: I make a ticket for that, the implementation in the mediaserver it self would be the best from my view - I don't know what you think as the coder from it.[23:36:59] <umccullough> i'm currently doinking around with this dp83815 driver again - trying to revert it back to something more like the original version i "slaughtered" for haiku[23:37:35] *** Euver has joined #haiku[23:39:12] *** Nies_ has joined #haiku[23:39:28] *** pikapika has joined #haiku[23:39:50] <AndyBe> dr_evil: otherwise the media server must choice what to use. - don't know as I say. I make a ticket and then we will see. I'm not this good coder then others here.[23:39:55] * AndyBe night all[23:40:47] <AndyBe> dr_evil: good night. - thanks for your ears.[23:40:50] *** AndyBe has left #haiku[23:41:06] <dr_evil> _hugo that was a build made with gcc2.95 on beos r5, perhaps it's different[23:41:50] <dr_evil> _hugo I can revert to r20090 and rebuild udp if you want[23:41:52] <pikapika> hello[23:42:24] <_hugo> dr_evil: nope. the best feedback right now would be a 'udp_endpoints' when it crashes again[23:42:34] <gotaku> Why does svn keep stalling?[23:43:09] <dr_evil> ok[23:43:14] <gotaku> It gets really slow.[23:44:57] <pyCube> sounds like haiku needs some better hosting[23:45:17] <dr_evil> gotaku how does a traceroute look? perhaps the dfn peering is overloaded (but not for me :-)[23:45:47] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20912 /haiku/trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): added object_cache_reserve to allow cache users to pre-allocate slabs.[23:46:44] *** Nies has quit IRC[23:46:45] <umccullough> i didn't have any svn issues just now either[23:47:24] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[23:47:43] <gotaku> It's working fine again...[23:48:58] <dr_evil> there goes my wasted time...[23:57:05] *** siarzhuk has quit IRC[23:59:32] *** Nies_ has quit IRC[23:59:57] <gotaku> Ahh, the OHCI spec is 160 pages...