[00:00:00] <Yez> or AA ?  The Advanced Access thingy
[00:00:17] <DeadYak> BeOS bible does pretty much nothing for you with respect to code
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[00:00:32] <_hugo> the developer's guide is mostly the bebook printed
[00:02:55] <mmu_man> sheep! http://www.beosfrance.com/images/avatar/sheep.gif
[00:04:15] <Sloar> Programming the Be Operating System.pdf
[00:04:24] <Sloar> free ebook?
[00:04:59] <Sloar> http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/beosprog/book/
[00:05:03] <Sloar> there it is
[00:05:42] <Sloar> do you guys have a link to that from haiku site?
[00:06:55] <DeadYak> somewhat outdated
[00:07:08] <DeadYak> lot of stuff has changed in the API since that was written
[00:08:00] <Sloar> still good reading?
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[00:09:08] <DeadYak> it's good for getting some of the basics down, just don't take it at face value as being the de facto right way to do everything
[00:13:48] <Sloar> wayback machine rocks
[00:14:22] <mmu_man> yep
[00:14:47] <DeadYak> mmu_man: flashbacks to anything? :P
[00:15:14] <mmu_man> my own files that got deleted :)
[00:15:19] <DeadYak> no no
[00:15:23] <mmu_man> best way to back up :)
[00:15:26] <Sloar> trying to go to an archived version of the bewine website so i can get the x11 package
[00:15:29] <Sloar> not working
[00:15:45] <mmu_man> archive.org usually don't archive zip files
[00:15:52] <mmu_man> tried beshre ?
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[00:16:15] <DeadYak> X11 = great way to get people to not want to run your apps
[00:16:22] <DeadYak> :P
[00:16:40] <mmu_man> besides, if you only want an X11 server there are on bebits
[00:17:03] <Sloar> the links on bebits dont work
[00:17:11] <Sloar> not for beos 5 pro anyway
[00:17:16] <mmu_man> beshare has them likely
[00:17:20] <Sloar> seen a version for zeta
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[00:17:30] <Sloar> never used beshare
[00:17:39] 
[00:17:46] <mmu_man> I still have to write a besharefs :))
[00:18:22] <siarzhuk> are there any ways to force this LAZY syslog_daemon to write something in syslog file? 8-E*|
[00:19:00] <mmu_man> sync ?
[00:19:15] <siarzhuk> keyboard is not working, he-he!
[00:19:17] <mmu_man> while sleep 30; do sync; done
[00:19:18] <siarzhuk> :-)
[00:19:25] <siarzhuk> that is the problem I want to log
[00:19:32] <mmu_man> just add that to UserBootscript :)
[00:19:38] <DeadYak> system("sync"); ? :P
[00:19:53] <_hugo> eh, www.x.org uses a dano theme? eheh
[00:20:08] <DeadYak> _hugo: wtf?
[00:20:14] <siarzhuk> bootscript or finaish script? ;-)
[00:20:15] <_hugo> DeadYak: totally
[00:20:22] <DeadYak> I see it
[00:20:25] <DeadYak> that's Origin
[00:20:29] <DeadYak> why the
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[00:20:34] <_hugo> was browsing around and bumped into it
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[00:21:02] <DeadYak> doesn't have the curvature on the tab though :/
[00:21:20] <mmu_man> yes it's a Origin-based theme for Dac0de
[00:21:24] <_hugo> it even has the resize thiny, so silly
[00:21:35] <mmu_man> the php engine that used to be behind linuxfr.org
[00:21:43] <DeadYak> mmu_man: Yes, but why is X.org using it? :P
[00:21:51] <mmu_man> before they wrote templ33t to replace it
[00:21:56] <mmu_man> DeadYake because they like it ?
[00:21:59] <mmu_man> :)
[00:22:06] <DeadYak> I guess :P
[00:22:07] <mmu_man> it's just a CMS
[00:22:34] <DeadYak> just something ironic about x.org using a BeOS theme :P
[00:22:59] <_hugo> i fail to understand how these people think having xorg use autocrap is an improvement
[00:23:22] <_hugo> autocrap as in automake, autoconf and friends
[00:23:45] <mmu_man> they got rid of imake ?
[00:23:48] <_hugo> yeah
[00:23:49] <mmu_man> oh joy \o/
[00:23:58] <mmu_man> still crappy, but that makes one less crap around =)
[00:23:59] <_hugo> http://xorg.freedesktop.org/releases/X11R7.2/src/ <- and they broke it down into 100 tiny pieces
[00:24:04] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20871 /haiku/trunk/src/build/libroot/atomic.cpp: Fixed atomic_add().
[00:24:09] <DeadYak> _hugo: the modularization thing is fun
[00:24:16] <DeadYak> *blink* atomic_add was broken?
[00:24:22] <_hugo> DeadYak: compat one probably
[00:24:27] <_hugo> or hopefully
[00:24:34] <mmu_man> it's always dangeroud to break atomic stuff =)
[00:24:57] <DeadYak> umm
[00:24:58] <_hugo> a add is atomic in x86 anyway
[00:25:00] <DeadYak> how are those atomic? :P
[00:25:07] <_hugo> in a single cpu that is
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[00:25:13] <DeadYak> http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/haiku/haiku/trunk/src/build/libroot/atomic.cpp?rev=20871&view=markup
[00:25:16] <DeadYak> someone tell me how those are atomic
[00:25:48] <_hugo> right, these are from the compat layer.
[00:25:53] <mmu_man> _hugo that's the problem, we don't target single cpu :p
[00:26:00] <DeadYak> yes but even for compat, they're not atomic :P
[00:26:06] <_hugo> right, these arent
[00:26:11] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20872 /haiku/trunk/src/tools/fs_shell/string.cpp:
[00:26:11] <CIA-18> POSIX strdup() is not required to handle a NULL argument gracefully (and
[00:26:11] <CIA-18> it doesn't under Linux), on BeOS it has to, though.
[00:26:18] <DeadYak> so how can they be for compat if they don't have correct behavior?
[00:26:25] <_hugo> i have no idea, you would have to ask Ingo
[00:26:39] <mmu_man> oh dear yeah I remember having to fix BSD's
[00:26:40] <_hugo> i know the newos ones are correct
[00:26:47] <mmu_man> well, not fix ...
[00:27:04] <mmu_man> DeadYak it is not required as per standard
[00:27:11] <mmu_man> just BeOS' used to not crash
[00:27:16] <mmu_man> so all apps assumes that
[00:27:17] <_hugo> atomic_add() is not required to be atomic?
[00:27:20] <mmu_man> and don't check NULL
[00:27:27] <_hugo> ah
[00:27:28] <mmu_man> so if you use BSD's libc or something else... :D
[00:27:31] <_hugo> you are talking about strdup
[00:27:38] <mmu_man> yes str*
[00:27:45] <_hugo> mmu_man: DeadYak was talking about atomic_X
[00:27:46] <DeadYak> mmu_man: I'm talking about atomic.cpp
[00:27:55] <mmu_man> ah
[00:27:57] <DeadYak> mmu_man the one Ingo just "fixed" is not in any way atomic
[00:29:17] <_hugo> FUNCTION(atomic_add):
[00:29:17] <_hugo>     movl        4(%esp),%edx
[00:29:17] <_hugo>     movl        8(%esp),%eax
[00:29:17] <_hugo>     lock
[00:29:17] <_hugo>     xaddl       %eax,(%edx)
[00:29:18] <_hugo>     ret
[00:29:28] <_hugo> os/arch/x86/atomic.S
[00:29:28] <DeadYak> yeah, that is
[00:29:29] <_hugo> these are
[00:30:00] <DeadYak> I also notice that atomic.cpp isn't extern "C"'d
[00:30:11] <_hugo> DeadYak: it probably is in the header
[00:30:27] <_hugo> or maybe the original beos ones weren't either
[00:30:41] <DeadYak> I thought they were
[00:30:58] <mmu_man> 0005868c T atomic_add
[00:31:37] <_hugo> os/support/SupportDefs.h, yep, extern'd C
[00:32:11] <mmu_man> bbl
[00:37:05] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20873 /haiku/trunk/ (9 files in 2 dirs):
[00:37:05] <CIA-18> FS shell changes:
[00:37:05] <CIA-18> * Added basic built-in module support.
[00:37:05] <CIA-18> * Added rootfs.
[00:37:05] <CIA-18> * Added "kernel" initialization.
[00:37:06] <CIA-18> * Exposed the FS syscalls.
[00:37:08] <CIA-18> * Mounting/unmounting the FS works now.
[00:37:55] <Sloar> anyone think this will work with beos : http://cgi.ebay.com/Cybernet-Elite-II-Zero-Footprint-PC-1-2ghz-512mb-40gb_W0QQitemZ290110453979QQihZ019QQcategoryZ140076QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[00:38:11] <Sloar> my desk is hurting for space
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[00:44:46] <Kernel86> Sloar: that would probably work good
[00:45:15] <Sloar> great
[00:45:23] <Ingenu> night
[00:45:30] <Sloar> i will get one then as my designated beos pc
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[00:48:59] <Sloar> is there a driver for the sis 630 integrated graphics?
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[00:49:58] <Sloar> ok bebits has the sound driver for it
[00:51:15] <Sloar> might have to use plain vesa for a while
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[00:52:58] <pikapika> there's a beos that could be installed on a 486 ?
[00:53:52] <DeadYak> nope
[00:54:05] <pikapika> thanks
[00:54:08] <DeadYak> Intel BeOS has always used pentium-specific instructions
[00:54:13] <DeadYak> primarily RDTSC
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[00:59:28] <pikapika> didn't thought there could be one, but never know :)
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[01:05:24] <ddew|bofh> *narf*
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[01:08:51] <bherg> hi there
[01:09:30] <ddew|bofh> ho
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[01:21:35] <mmu_man> n8
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[01:36:01] <def1> i have the 'haiku.image' image file, how can i mount this using software such as Daemon Tools or Alcohol?
[01:37:22] <tombhadAC> you can not because it uses bfs
[01:38:48] <def1> i see
[01:39:13] <def1> i want to install the image i have onto a virual machine
[01:39:28] <def1> (i have downloaded and used the vmware images)
[01:39:55] <def1> however i wanted to do a install a new machine
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[01:56:36] <ddew|bofh> has anyone here even seen the beos source?
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[01:58:26] <[Beta]> I can bet someone has.
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[01:59:54] <ddew|bofh> it'd be cool to see it, curious about it :)
[02:00:13] <ddew|bofh> it's like some mythical thing of the past
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[02:01:46] <[Beta]> you dont want to really.
[02:01:59] * DeadYak moos
[02:02:04] <[Beta]> it would give you nothing. Look at Haiku code. it's open too, and nearly does the same thing :P
[02:02:07] <[Beta]> moo DeadYak
[02:02:10] <DeadYak> ddew|bofh: I have
[02:03:48] * DeadYak milks [Beta]
[02:04:21] <gotaku> Hm... HelloWorld and TextEditor compile fine even while not running in safemode. However trying to use the make file when not in safemode reboots the system.
[02:04:42] <gotaku> What is makefile-engine?
[02:05:03] <ddew|bofh> DeadYak: is it anything fun?
[02:05:04] <[Beta]> o.O
[02:05:06] <DeadYak> BeOS came with a built-in build engine for make to make it easier to set up basic apps and stuff
[02:05:12] <DeadYak> that's makefile-engine
[02:05:15] <DeadYak> ddew|bofh: define fun
[02:05:31] <ddew|bofh> interesting :)
[02:05:32] <DeadYak> there's about as many hidden jokes in it as you find in the public headers
[02:05:49] <ddew|bofh> guessing it's the EXP/Dano source?
[02:06:00] <DeadYak> yeah, that was when I worked at yT
[02:06:41] <ddew|bofh> i guess i just have a weird curiousity about things like that, remember spending many hours perusing the win2k source :)
[02:07:34] <pyCube> seriously.. wtf could possibly be the point?
[02:07:36] <pyCube> hehe
[02:08:07] <ddew|bofh> i find it inspirational
[02:08:32] * [Beta] stares
[02:08:33] <pyCube> yeah.. win2k inspires me, for sure
[02:08:53] <DeadYak> win2k's one of my favorite OSes actually
[02:09:16] <ddew|bofh> the whole nt-line is good
[02:09:32] <ddew|bofh> it was the 98-line that gave ms a bad name :P
[02:09:33] <[Beta]> I used 2k for ages, loved it mostly.
[02:09:38] <pyCube> fav as an os, or fav as a platform for running some cool sw that requires a windows variant?
[02:09:39] <TTRanger> narf
[02:09:46] <ddew|bofh> poit
[02:09:51] <DeadYak> pyCube: as in OS
[02:09:52] <[Beta]> still had annoying graphics driver lockups.
[02:10:13] <DeadYak> pyCube: I'm by and large unimpressed by Linux and friends as desktop OSes
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[02:11:28] <[Beta]> unlike DeadYak, I've been happily using Linux as a desktop for years. *shrug* to each their own :)
[02:11:47] <DeadYak> I use it at work, I wouldn't dream of calling it a happy experience though :P
[02:11:54] <_hugo> i have as well, but the fact i need 1gig of memory now is absurd
[02:14:39] <SiCuTDeUx> Linux helix 2.6.21 #1 PREEMPT Fri Apr 27 19:27:18 VET 2007 i686 GNU/Linux
[02:14:48] * SiCuTDeUx loves home made kernels :D
[02:14:51] <pyCube> 256 megs here.. runs fine
[02:15:06] <DeadYak> 1GB of RAM at work, and I'm regularly 400 megs into swap
[02:15:17] <SiCuTDeUx> OMG...
[02:15:29] <pyCube> something is wrong.. hehe
[02:15:30] <SiCuTDeUx> DeadYak: what progrs do you use every day..?
[02:15:35] <_hugo> nothing is wrong
[02:15:38] <[Beta]> I find 1gb short, I'm never doing anything by half :)
[02:15:42] <DeadYak> Eclipse for instance = most bloated app of all time
[02:15:49] <SiCuTDeUx> look at thist
[02:15:54] <SiCuTDeUx> Sysinfo for 'helix': Linux 2.6.21 running KDE 3.5.6, CPU: Intel(R)Celeron(R)Mprocessor1.60GHz at 1596 MHz (3194 bogomips), , RAM: 237/241MB, 96 proc's, 19.3min up
[02:15:57] <_hugo> when i had 512m of ram, using firefox would put into heavy swapping
[02:16:06] <_hugo> *put me
[02:16:12] <DeadYak> Firefox, Thunderbird, KDE, Eclipse, about 30 Konsoles, IM app, etc.
[02:16:14] <pyCube> ah.. ecplise eats ram.. but thats not a linux issue
[02:16:23] <SiCuTDeUx> 30?
[02:16:27] <SiCuTDeUx> why?
[02:16:37] <DeadYak> pyCube: sure but it's always trumpeted as the king of amazing development tools
[02:16:43] <DeadYak> I find it to be utter and complete ass.
[02:16:50] <pyCube> heh
[02:16:50] <DeadYak> and slower than any other app i have the misfortune to use.
[02:17:06] <DeadYak> and I might note, the windows version runs circles around the linux rev on the same box
[02:17:10] <[Beta]> DeadYak, it's mostly ass, yeah :)
[02:17:45] <DeadYak> KDE and Gnome are both mostly bloatware as well imo
[02:18:19] <pyCube> i like gnome.. kde is garbage, imo..
[02:18:25] <DeadYak> other way around for me
[02:18:28] <_hugo> to be honest i find it surprising how bloated gtk/gnome still are after all these years
[02:18:31] <DeadYak> gnome treats me as too much of an idiot
[02:18:38] <DeadYak> and frankly gtk is the single slowest toolkit of all time
[02:18:46] <DeadYak> at least when it comes to responsiveness
[02:18:54] <pyCube> rox is really nice if you want low resource usage..rox is great regardless, actually
[02:19:05] <_hugo> yes, its ridiculous DeadYak
[02:19:22] <DeadYak> sure, and as soon as I need an app from another DE I get to watch it load all those extra shared libs into RAM
[02:19:22] <_hugo> i don't dislike gtk, but its terrible slow
[02:19:29] <DeadYak> the Linux desktop is laughable at best
[02:19:37] <pyCube> well, i agree.. qt is way nicer, especially to code with..
[02:19:46] <_hugo> using another DE just to use less memory is a crappy suggestion if you ask me
[02:20:00] <[Beta]> gtk/gnome is the bloated+slowest interface i've come across on linux :/
[02:20:21] <fernandotcl> X is ugly
[02:20:32] <_hugo> i keep seeing these gnome guys caring about striping 1second or 2 seconds from boot
[02:20:41] <_hugo> while gtk is still slow as hell and gnome uses tons of mem
[02:20:52] <fernandotcl> X was great 20 years ago, it's completaly not suitable for modern usage
[02:21:01] <[Beta]> _hugo, if only they made file dialogs not take 10 seconds to load the dir ...
[02:21:08] <_hugo> fernandotcl: why is it unsuitable?
[02:21:20] <fernandotcl> _hugo: the X primitives are too basic
[02:21:47] <_hugo> [Beta]: they still haven't learned about asynchronous operations im sure
[02:21:52] <_hugo> fernandotcl: which primitives?
[02:22:00] <fernandotcl> Xlib stuff
[02:22:17] <_hugo> fernandotcl: you just need widgets/windows to draw to
[02:22:28] <_hugo> the toolkits do the rest
[02:22:34] <fernandotcl> X already provides widgets, they're only useless ;-)
[02:22:38] <_hugo> so X as itself is as suitable as anything else
[02:22:43] <_hugo> X has no widgets
[02:22:49] <fernandotcl> Xlib does
[02:22:49] <pyCube> nothing wrong with async code
[02:22:56] <fernandotcl> afaik
[02:23:17] <fernandotcl> take a look at xfontsel or xpdf compiled without motif support
[02:23:34] <_hugo> fernandotcl: they probably use Xaw or something like that
[02:23:40] <fernandotcl> hmmm maybe
[02:23:47] <_hugo> which is a very simple toolkit
[02:24:02] <fernandotcl> it hurts one's eyes
[02:24:20] <_hugo> its fast
[02:24:48] <pyCube> well, i like linux.. i like x.. room for imrovement? sure.. but its consistently improving, and its fuctional and useful in the meanwhile
[02:25:07] <_hugo> linux was functional and useful back in 1998
[02:25:14] <pyCube> yep
[02:25:25] <pyCube> adn its improved since
[02:25:28] <_hugo> 10 years later it hasn't improved much
[02:25:30] <[Beta]> Mandrake was great in the day.
[02:25:42] <_hugo> even Staroffice was better, eheh
[02:25:55] <pyCube> _hugo: well, thats not a realistic or fair assesment
[02:26:04] <_hugo> im exagerating a bit now :-)
[02:26:06] <[Beta]> _hugo, blame Miguel, heh ;) gnome, mono...
[02:26:15] <pyCube> i could be a total dick and say "wtf! haiku is useless.. 6 years on and its useless"
[02:26:28] <_hugo> pyCube: well, but you have to put it in perspective
[02:26:34] <pyCube> exactly
[02:26:35] <_hugo> how many people did work in haiku for these past 6 years?
[02:26:50] <pyCube> linux has improved greatly since 98
[02:26:51] <_hugo> and see how far it got
[02:26:58] <DeadYak> as a server, sure, as a desktop, meh
[02:27:06] <pyCube> only in a bitchy, narrow context does "hasnt improved much" apply
[02:27:13] <_hugo> well, linux has 100-500x times the people working on it that haiku does
[02:27:18] <_hugo> and it is by no means 100-500x better
[02:27:21] <pyCube> regardless
[02:27:28] <[Beta]> as a server, I dont believe its changed much at all in 7 years, DeadYak.
[02:27:52] <pyCube> unrealistic, emotional charges ltossed at an os have nothing to do with amount of devs
[02:28:20] <DeadYak> [Beta]: in the last 7 years the linux kernel became realistically enterprise ready
[02:28:39] <pyCube> btw, i wasnt really jabbing at haiku.. just illustrating that i could narrow context and be a dick about it
[02:28:40] <fernandotcl> 7 years ago it version 2.2 was the current one, no?
[02:28:40] <DeadYak> [Beta]: so yes, as a server it's changed more
[02:28:53] <_hugo> pyCube: im sorry, but the work force makes, or should, make the difference
[02:29:47] <[Beta]> DeadYak, OK, at the kernel level. I dont believe you could tell the difference at the shell.
[02:30:56] <DeadYak> [Beta]: I didn'
[02:31:01] <DeadYak> er didn't mean interface specifically
[02:31:41] <[Beta]> I know
[02:33:04] <pyCube> DeadYak: i dunno.. i couldnt (didnt have patience) use linux until the past couple years..i would say its improved immensely..
[02:33:20] <pyCube> i havent had less hassle with an os, ever..
[02:33:24] <DeadYak> relative to itself? certainly
[02:33:24] <pyCube> since using ubuntu
[02:33:36] <DeadYak> relative to everyone else on the market, try 7 years of catchup and still working on it
[02:34:08] <pyCube> and haiku isnt in catchup mode?
[02:34:19] <DeadYak> when did I say Haiku was ready now?
[02:34:27] <pyCube> you didnt
[02:34:30] <pyCube> thats not what i menat
[02:34:33] <DeadYak> so why bring it up?
[02:34:44] <pyCube> i dunon.. why'd you bring it up?
[02:34:52] <[Beta]> because sometimes we like to believe we're in #osnews ;)
[02:34:53] <DeadYak> you brought up Haiku, not me
[02:34:57] <fernandotcl> ubuntu looks good from the outside, but if you take a look at how things work... it sucks
[02:34:58] <fernandotcl> fedora/mandrake/suse suck even more
[02:35:04] <pyCube> oh, i meant 'catch up'
[02:35:20] <DeadYak> I was referring primarily to OSX and Windows
[02:35:41] <DeadYak> which the Linux DEs seem to love to copy
[02:35:44] <pyCube> and progress relative to itself is what matters..
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[02:38:19] <pyCube> look.. i am not judging haiku or linux here.. just commenting on how people discuss to two of them
[02:38:49] <_hugo> no one was discussing haiku, i think we are quite aware of the status quo
[02:39:07] <pyCube> which status quo?
[02:39:30] <[Beta]> change topic!
[02:40:13] <pyCube> my point is that any project will have good parts and parts that need some serious work.. hehe..
[02:40:36] <fernandotcl> unfinished projects, maybe
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[02:41:43] <[Beta]> _hugo, a good mail on the mailing list.
[02:41:48] <pyCube> projects that are continually improving are 'unfinished'
[02:41:58] <pyCube> like haiku
[02:42:13] <fernandotcl> naw, i disagree. most open source projects are "lazy" and always unfinished, but that doesn't have to be the rule
[02:42:18] <DeadYak> there is no such thing as finished software
[02:42:25] <_hugo> [Beta]: refering to mines? if so, thank you. it was sincere, so :-)
[02:42:26] <fernandotcl> not finished as in perfect
[02:42:37] <fernandotcl> but rather as fully implemented and polished
[02:42:39] <pyCube> DeadYak: just sw that nobody cares about updating anymore
[02:43:00] <DeadYak> aye
[02:43:17] <[Beta]> _hugo, yeah. you're in a position to say something like that, whereas others who agree arent ;)
[02:43:38] <_hugo> [Beta]: not sure i am. i thought a bit whether i should send it
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[02:44:07] <stargater> hi
[02:44:36] <[Beta]> we'll see with the feedback.
[02:45:11] <[Beta]> at least it might answer why people having been using "haiku foundation" an awful lot recently.
[02:46:08] <_hugo> [Beta]: well, Haiku Inc. exists lawfully in the US
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[02:46:35] <_hugo> and a large part of the code's copyright is attributed to Haiku Inc
[02:47:22] <[Beta]> uh huh.
[02:47:28] <stargater> Haiku-OS ==> need a (TM)
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[02:58:24] <gotaku> Ah, so it's mimeset that is causing the reboots.
[03:01:36] <gotaku> sync'ing takes so long :(
[03:02:57] <gotaku> might not be mimeset after all :(
[03:03:00] <gotaku> stupid bugs.
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[03:07:39] <gotaku> Well this is an interesting bug... On boot the Terminal says "Terminal 2"
[03:07:46] *** TTRanger has joined #haiku
[03:14:04] <gotaku> What's with the "Haiku" screensaver ;)
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[03:28:44] <gotaku> Is Zeta worth installing?
[03:29:44] <umccullough> depends on what you're trying to accomplish
[03:30:44] <umccullough> i have it installed on a 3rd partition of my BeOS/Haiku box - but I can't remember the last time i booted into it (probably to test a driver for someone)
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[04:01:24] <ddew|bofh> *sob*
[04:01:39] <ddew|bofh> i hate general os errors
[04:01:51] <ddew|bofh> insanely non-descriptive
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[04:15:34] <gotaku> ddew: What's wrong?
[04:15:42] <gotaku> Is there a good resource on how bfs works?
[04:16:43] <DeadYak> in what sense?
[04:16:46] <DeadYak> like the FS design?
[04:17:04] <gotaku> Yes.
[04:17:09] <DeadYak> http://www.letterp.com/~dbg/practical-file-system-design.pdf
[04:17:14] <DeadYak> there's the PDF of the book about it
[04:17:17] <DeadYak> written by dbg himself
[04:17:32] <DeadYak> enjoy
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[04:18:53] <ddew|bofh> gotaku: trying to get a driver working
[04:19:07] <gotaku> Wow, 240 pages...
[04:20:53] <DeadYak> gotaku: it was a real book, it's just out of print now so he put it up for free in PDF form
[04:21:36] <DeadYak> the NTFS book's about the same size, filesystems are quite complex beasts
[04:31:06] <gotaku> What's that website that had archived all the old Be stuff? (Newsletter, dev docs, etc...)
[04:38:01] <umccullough> jpbe?
[04:38:18] <umccullough> http://jpbe.net/wiki/
[04:40:16] <umccullough> beatjapan.org, sorry
[04:40:38] <umccullough> http://www.beatjapan.org/mirror/www.be.com/aboutbe/benewsletter/index.html
[04:40:49] <kokito> ouch! TB just crashed on me...
[04:40:56] <DeadYak> TB?
[04:41:20] <umccullough> tuberculosis?
[04:41:57] <umccullough> thunderbird is suspect
[04:42:08] <pyCube> blunderturd
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[04:43:34] <styluseater> does anyone speak spanish in here?
[04:43:35] <gotaku> That's it, thanks.
[04:44:04] <styluseater> /channellist
[04:44:07] <styluseater> whoops
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[04:46:02] <kokito> I do styluseater
[04:46:35] <kokito> styluseater, looking for a spanish haiku channel?
[04:47:22] <styluseater> kokito: doing a translation on an install doc for minix
[04:47:47] <kokito> ah
[04:48:10] <styluseater> would like to have another set of eyes read it
[04:48:56] <kokito> sorry, but I don't have time. maybe at the minix IRC channel? :P
[04:50:52] <styluseater> kokito: I know...sorry...but minix is even less supported than beos
[04:50:54] <styluseater> :-/
[04:51:49] <kokito> sure, but it does sound like you came to the wrong place to ask for help. :)
[04:52:27] <pyCube> try #spanish_speakers_with_nothing_to_do
[04:52:59] <styluseater> youch folks...I hang out in here a lot, just asking a friendly question
[04:53:22] <pyCube> i was being silly, not bitchy.. sorry
[04:53:32] <kokito> don't worry styluseater; I think pyCube is just teasing you :)
[04:53:41] <styluseater> gotchya
[04:53:59] <styluseater> sorry...but it seems as if a lot of people are on edge tonight...there was just a blow up in another room I'm in...
[04:54:04] <styluseater> must be a full moon... :-)
[04:54:12] <kokito> LOL
[04:54:47] <styluseater> that...or people aren't saving a lot of money on car insurance
[04:54:50] <styluseater> *grin*
[04:55:17] <kokito> so easy, even a caveman can do it? :P
[04:55:50] <styluseater> wuh...wuh...pffft...
[04:55:55] * styluseater is a caveman
[04:56:08] * styluseater finds that offensive
[04:56:11] <styluseater> :-)
[04:58:08] <styluseater> toodle pip...
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[05:01:13] * kokito is relieved...
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[05:12:26] <umccullough> heh
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[05:38:30] <pyCube> heh.. our app and db server just turned a year, in uptime
[05:38:33] <pyCube> servers
[05:49:35] <umccullough> you should reboot them as a token of gratitude ;)
[05:50:24] <pyCube> heh
[05:51:54] <Grackle> I need a UPS. The most I have gotten on any machine is just short of 50 days.
[05:52:21] <pyCube> well.. these are at some fancy co-location place
[05:52:35] <Grackle> Sounds like it's a good one.
[05:54:02] <umccullough> most i usually get on my windows boxes is 1 month ;)
[05:54:14] <umccullough> cuz that's when microsoft releases their patches and requires a reboot
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[06:15:16] * JonathanThompson lobs another Windows update at umccullough to see how long before he reboots
[06:15:42] <umccullough> i *hate* that reboot nag
[06:16:02] <JonathanThompson> Eventually, you end up doing it by mistake.
[06:16:04] <umccullough> the one that pops up while you're trying to do something and begs "hit restart! please hit restart!"
[06:16:09] <umccullough> exactly
[06:16:18] <JonathanThompson> It keeps on popping up and eventually you'll have to do something and lose track, and activate it.
[06:16:27] <umccullough> it's a fucking usability nightmare!
[06:16:36] <umccullough> excuse the language, forgot i was in channel ;)
[06:16:40] <JonathanThompson> Tell us how you really feel :P
[06:17:06] <umccullough> used to having those discussions in #teamhaiku where "anything flies" ;)
[06:17:55] * JonathanThompson wonders how many pigs get into that channel by mistake
[06:18:11] <umccullough> not many... we're uslaly pretty lonely...
[06:18:16] <umccullough> usually even
[06:20:06] * umccullough recalls his father in law's hood ornament
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[06:23:55] <umccullough> JonathanThompson, i'll post a pic sometime - it's almost like he put it on there as a punishment for anyone that borrows his nissan pickup
[06:24:17] <JonathanThompson> :P
[06:24:23] <umccullough> chrome flying pig sitting on its ass with a yellow label underneath that says "Harley's Hog"
[06:24:29] <umccullough> his name is Harley
[06:24:46] <umccullough> it's rather embarrasssing when sitting at a gas station filling up
[06:24:49] <JonathanThompson> I was typing a reply that wondered if it were a bit more.... adult-topic :P
[06:25:19] <umccullough> hmm.. that's not a bad idea... i'll have to modify it sometime ;)
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[07:04:31] <pyCube> ack!! i have this script that makes a certain file during a process.. takes about 45 mins to complete.. i had started the script, stopped it and rm'd the file it creates...then started the script again for reals... while it was running, up arrow and enter had been pressed.. so after the script completed, it executed the rm command!! f'ing rad
[07:06:53] * DeadYak meeps
[07:07:36] <geist> yowzers
[07:08:11] <DeadYak> what?
[07:08:29] <DeadYak> pyCube: ouch
[07:10:32] <pyCube> heh.. yeah.. i thought it was cool
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[07:21:03] <DeadYak> pyCube: I'm assuming the script doesn't create any intermediate files that'd shorten the process of recovering the final?
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[07:22:15] <pyCube> unfortunately, no
[07:22:21] <DeadYak> :/
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[08:36:31] <devian> hallo
[08:36:44] <devian> hai _hugo
[08:37:03] <devian> what RFC are u using for the TCP layer implementation of the IPv6 ??
[08:45:29] <devian> hallo
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[09:00:20] <Begasus> morning peeps
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[09:00:29] <JonathanThompson> Greetings, alien :)
[09:00:41] * JonathanThompson notes an alien convention filling to quota
[09:00:49] <Begasus> nanu nanu JonathanThompson ;)
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[09:15:38] <Begasus> hi siarzhuk
[09:15:55] <Begasus> prob is solved in regards of the keyboard on the laptop ;)
[09:16:08] <JonathanThompson> Did you simply replace the laptop? :)
[09:16:30] <Begasus> hehe :P
[09:16:56] <Begasus> filed a bug report ;)
[09:18:31] <siarzhuk> it is not salvation - it just workaround. See the ticket 1158 for the second part of The Story :-D Hi.
[09:18:52] <Begasus> well it works ;)
[09:19:07] <siarzhuk> it not works. :-p
[09:19:14] <Begasus> ah you filed one too ;)
[09:19:52] <siarzhuk> ups. ticket 1185
[09:19:57] <siarzhuk> I meant
[09:20:47] * JonathanThompson hates it when he uses & where he should have used | or the other way around
[09:21:07] <JonathanThompson> Perhaps that'll teach me to not code when I'm tired :P
[09:22:47] <Begasus> see it ...
[09:22:54] <Begasus> so it didn't fix your prob then ....
[09:23:08] <siarzhuk> anyway it is better idea to have a rest instead of coding :-)
[09:23:18] <siarzhuk> when you tired of course
[09:23:20] <JonathanThompson> That's often more productive :P
[09:23:21] <siarzhuk> ;-)
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[09:24:16] <JonathanThompson> If debugging is the practice of removing bugs, it stands to reason that programming is the practice of creating them :)
[09:26:11] <siarzhuk> this is the way of life. :-\
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[09:32:51] <Begasus> moin MauriceK ;)
[09:33:02] <MauriceK> hey Begasus :)
[09:33:41] <Begasus> how's it going there?
[09:33:51] <MauriceK> I'm fine,thx. and you?
[09:34:08] <Begasus> not to bad thnx
[09:34:24] <Begasus> still coding ?
[09:34:36] <MauriceK> yes, but not for BeOS
[09:34:37] <MauriceK> :)
[09:34:43] <Begasus> bummer ;)
[09:35:03] <MauriceK> but i am considering making the stuff i played with public...
[09:35:23] <Begasus> would be nice for the comunity ;)
[09:35:36] <Begasus> just like Jixt did with PhotoGrabber
[09:35:51] <MauriceK> yes, but I'd had to make it work again first... I recall I reworte too much before I stopped completly :)
[09:35:59] <Begasus> and I think there will be several people interested in the stuff you did ;)
[09:36:08] <Begasus> hehe
[09:37:42] <MauriceK> hm... he released ZETA only code... I could do the same...
[09:38:08] <MauriceK> was using some classes not present on r5... maybe someone else is then interested in rearranging it for haiku
[09:39:13] <Begasus> there are also the BeIDE projects for R5 included MauriceK ...
[09:39:26] <Begasus> although they don't compile yet ....
[09:39:29] * MauriceK never used BeIDE
[09:40:07] <Begasus> me neither  .... but a lot of people use it so for them it's easier to work with
[09:40:43] <MauriceK> not necessarily... as long as you do not need any fancy settings, makefiles are very easy to handle
[09:41:27] <Begasus> true enough ... but you'd have to be familiar with makefiles ;)
[09:41:43] <MauriceK> get the template, add you own files... done ;)
[09:41:54] <MauriceK> but yeah, most people still avoid console usage
[09:42:07] <Begasus> ;)
[09:43:00] <kokito> hello folks
[09:43:29] <Begasus> well if the gui for it does what it needs and has all the nescecary add-ons for you to create the makefile, make and compile the project ;)
[09:43:29] <Begasus> hi kokito
[09:43:42] <kokito> hey Begasus
[09:46:02] <JonathanThompson> Hi kokito.
[09:46:23] <kokito> hey JonathanThompson
[09:46:43] * JonathanThompson wonders when the next Waltercon will be, and where (presumably west coast this time)
[09:47:02] <Begasus> kokito was planning to make a post on the presentation francoid did at numerico ... just read your mail in the list
[09:47:02] <Begasus> could I add the mirrors to the post too or just the official ones for the moment?
[09:47:28] <Begasus> I could link them to haiku-os if you post them and add the mirrors to though ;)
[09:47:58] <kokito> Begasus, I don't understand. I was not planning anything more that just add links to the mirrors on the website.
[09:49:43] <Begasus> now I'm confused ... ;)
[09:49:48] <Begasus> is there a post already?
[09:50:04] <kokito> a post? you mean a news post?
[09:51:01] <Begasus> yep
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[09:51:29] <Begasus> just saw that you have the link in the right special events block ;)
[09:51:46] <kokito> Begasus, there is no post that I know of, and I am not planning to write one either. I was just going to add the movie links to the "Special Events" box in the front page and then here > there is really no official or on-official
[09:51:55] <Begasus> hi Jixt
[09:52:09] <kokito> oops! that was meant to be here > http://haiku-os.org/about/movies
[09:52:16] * kokito needs to get some sleep
[09:52:29] <Begasus> nm ... I was reading it wrong kokito ;)
[09:52:46] * JonathanThompson staples kokito into bed with a Tomahawk Cruise Missile/nail gun hybrid
[09:52:50] <kokito> never mind Begasus :)
[09:53:16] * kokito wonders why JonathanThompson is always so beligerant
[09:53:43] * JonathanThompson is only attempting to help kokito fight the urge to stay awake when his body says sleep, Locutus!
[09:53:47] <Jixt> hi Begasus
[09:54:12] <JonathanThompson> And then the Jixt'er appears :)
[09:54:26] <JonathanThompson> He's Jixt in time for a lively/deadly discussion :P
[09:54:36] <kokito> JonathanThompson, there is some talk about holding Waltercon in Europe this year, but there is nothing firm yet
[09:54:45] <JonathanThompson> Hmmm....
[09:55:01] <JonathanThompson> If that should happen, I can't say I'll be able to have vacation time/time off.
[09:55:12] <JonathanThompson> I've had a crazy employment situation lately.
[09:55:19] <JonathanThompson> I'm on my third job in 7 months.
[09:55:28] <JonathanThompson> Third employer/location.
[09:56:24] * JonathanThompson wonders if he'll ever work for any place longer than his current record, 4 years and about a week, due to how things work out in real life
[09:56:45] <Begasus> that's not so good JonathanThompson :s
[09:56:53] <JonathanThompson> Frustrating.
[09:57:49] <JonathanThompson> I got laid off in middle September last year, then had a few months searching during the worst part of the year, started a new place late December, 3 months contract-to-hire, they wanted me, I wanted to work for them, but due to a budget issue caused by someone doing things under the table, I couldn't stay there, so... now I'm at a new place, under contract.
[09:58:01] <JonathanThompson> And no promises for vacation anytime soon.
[09:58:45] <Begasus> eeps
[09:59:07] <Jixt> hmm, something wrong with my irc client, sorry
[09:59:23] <Jixt> tab-completion is doing strange
[09:59:32] <JonathanThompson> The bright side is my current contract, I'm currently making >1.5 times I was making at the job I was laid off from in September :P
[09:59:32] <Begasus> I'm at home now from past november due to health ...
[09:59:45] <Begasus> doesn't look like I'll be starting any time soon ...
[09:59:50] <Begasus> what's up with it Jixt?
[10:00:02] <JonathanThompson> Error between chair and keyboard? :)
[10:00:09] <Begasus> mac'ish? :P
[10:00:23] <Jixt> yeah
[10:00:45] <Begasus> that's enough a reasson to stay JonathanThompson ;)
[10:01:03] <JonathanThompson> Well, I don't intend on moving around, but... I don't have complete control over that.
[10:01:18] <Jixt> ok, problem solved Begasus
[10:01:58] <Begasus> ;)
[10:04:45] <kokito> good night guys
[10:06:03] <Begasus> g'night kokito
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[10:11:47] <Jixt> ok, I think it would be nice to make a new version of PhotoGrabber
[10:12:30] <Jixt> And put it in the download section
[10:13:09] <Begasus> compiles on Jixt?
[10:13:28] <Begasus> compiled*
[10:14:49] <Jixt> I think I will make a R5 and Z*t* version
[10:15:46] <Begasus> rofl
[10:16:00] <Begasus> can you compile the one at R5
[10:16:14] <Begasus> haven't checked latest rev here ...
[10:16:49] <Begasus> think I needed to set the target os also (whitch I probly forgat the previous time) ;)
[10:17:54] <Jixt> lol
[10:18:48] <Jixt> ok, you make the Z?t@ version I will make the R5 one
[10:20:21] <Begasus> k will do
[10:20:21] <Begasus> but will be for the afternoon ;)
[10:20:26] <Begasus> have to pickup the doughter from school  (music)
[10:20:27] <Begasus> so bbl ;)
[10:20:30] *** Begasus is now known as Begasus_bbl
[10:20:33] <Jixt> ok
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[11:05:09] <stargater> hi
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[11:08:22] <Lelldorin1> moin
[11:12:36] <stargater> moin Lelldorin1
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[11:37:40] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20874 /haiku/trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): miniature cleanups.
[11:37:50] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20875 /haiku/trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): some slab cleanups, split the C interface to another file.
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[12:15:54] <stargater> cu
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[12:33:36] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20876 /haiku/trunk/src/tools/fs_shell/ (fd.cpp fd.h fssh.cpp fssh.h):
[12:33:36] <CIA-18> * Init kernel IO context.
[12:33:36] <CIA-18> * Added command management, an interactive input loop, and a few basic
[12:33:36] <CIA-18>  commands.
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[12:53:29] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20877 /haiku/trunk/src/tools/fs_shell/fd.cpp: Fixed debug build.
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[12:54:19] <Begasus> re
[12:54:45] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20878 /haiku/trunk/src/tools/fs_shell/kernel_export.cpp: Segfault when panic()ing -- simplifies debugging.
[12:56:30] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20879 /haiku/trunk/src/tools/fs_shell/file_cache.cpp:
[12:56:30] <CIA-18> Use vfs_lookup_vnode() instead of vfs_get_vnode() when creating a file
[12:56:30] <CIA-18> cache, so we don't run into a "vnode ... is not becoming unbusy"
[12:56:30] <CIA-18> problem.
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[14:05:51] <CIA-18> axeld * r20880 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/cortex/ (9 files in 4 dirs): Another round of style updates by Vasilis Kaoutsis.
[14:13:24] <CIA-18> axeld * r20881 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/cortex/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Fixed warnings.
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[14:18:16] <pikapika> hello
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[14:36:22] <NeonLicht> does anybody know if LaTeX has been ported (or somebody has tried or think about porting it) to BeOS?
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[14:40:29] <TTRanger> Greetings
[14:41:00] <NeonLicht> hello TTRanger
[14:41:09] <TTRanger> Hey NeonLicht!
[14:57:19] <Begasus> nanu nanu !
[15:04:00] <TTRanger> narf
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[15:13:33] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20882 /haiku/trunk/src/tools/fs_shell/ (Jamfile fssh.cpp fssh.h path_util.cpp path_util.h):
[15:13:33] <CIA-18> * The command functions return actual error codes now.
[15:13:33] <CIA-18> * Added commands ln, mkdir, mkindex, rm.
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[15:14:47] <mmu_man> MikeW what did you ask me yesterday ?
[15:15:12] <MikeW> mmu_man: I think It was about the version shown in emacs
[15:16:28] <mmu_man> 21.5.nn it's the CVS HEAD
[15:16:40] <mmu_man> *X*Emacs
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[15:35:21] <^TangoDev^> what is the changes in TCP layer of the IPv6??
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[15:43:30] <mmu_man> bbl
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[16:06:22] <TTRanger> Zaranthos
[16:06:33] <TTRanger> DeadYak
[16:07:44] <TTRanger> procton
[16:11:59] <TTRanger> Jixt_bbl Question for you if you're around...
[16:12:26] <gotaku> Why isn't there an "arrange" for organizing the icons when displaying folders items in icon view?
[16:12:41] <gotaku> "clean up" just seems to align things to a grid.
[16:13:09] <TTRanger> gotaku I think that's all BeOS has ever had.  Not that it shouldn't have more capabilities.
[16:13:38] <TTRanger> Are you thinking of arranging them alphabetically?
[16:14:01] <TTRanger> Begasus
[16:14:21] <TTRanger> wow, everybody's AWOL!
[16:16:15] <gotaku> TTRanger: Yes but even just something to pack the icons into the smallest space.
[16:16:36] <TTRanger> Then what you'd like would be adjustable grid size, right?
[16:16:45] <gotaku> Eh?
[16:17:08] <TTRanger> Well you *can* manually lay them out however you want.
[16:17:22] <gotaku> Yes... manually.
[16:17:31] <TTRanger> If you want them organized automatically there has to be *some* sort of grid for the OS to use for reference.
[16:18:05] <gotaku> There is already a grid.
[16:18:38] <TTRanger> Grids can be different sized spacings.  If the grid size was adjustable, the OS would be able to pack them in a smaller space as you described.
[16:19:57] <TTRanger> Let me throw a question into the ether here and see if anyone can answer it...
[16:20:24] <TTRanger> What *is* the maximum hard drive size BeOS 5 can read, assuming the partitions on the drive are kept to 60 gigs or less?
[16:20:50] <gotaku> TTRanger: Haiku right no doesn't pack icons at all... that's what I'm saying.
[16:21:12] <gotaku> right now
[16:21:12] <TTRanger> Ah, you were talking about Haiku.  Ok....
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[16:21:16] <gotaku> ...
[16:21:25] <gotaku> Uh... yes this is the Haiku channel.
[16:21:41] <TTRanger> Don't get insulant...I was trying to be helpful
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[16:22:35] <gotaku> insulant?
[16:22:43] <TTRanger> Itha
[16:22:46] <TTRanger> Ithamar
[16:22:50] <Ithamar> hey TTRanger :)
[16:22:59] <TTRanger> Hey, quick question for you Ithamar
[16:23:03] <TTRanger> What *is* the maximum hard drive size BeOS 5 can read, assuming the partitions on the drive are kept to 60 gigs or less?
[16:23:42] <Ithamar> The problem isn't partition size
[16:24:06] <Ithamar> The thing is that the R5 IDE driver doesn't support LBA48
[16:24:20] <Ithamar> so it can't address blocks on the disk that are that far away ;)
[16:24:32] <TTRanger> Ithamar How does that impact on maximum drive size?
[16:24:35] <Ithamar> (it isn't a filesystem issue)
[16:24:55] <Ithamar> I think max is 120G or so IIRC
[16:25:05] <TTRanger> Ithamar But it can all be in one partition?
[16:25:15] <Ithamar> I think so
[16:25:20] <TTRanger> Thanks
[16:25:22] * Ithamar digs into his IDE memories
[16:25:27] <TTRanger> hehe
[16:25:30] <JonathanThompson> Hi guys
[16:25:36] <Ithamar> hey JonathanThompson!
[16:25:37] <TTRanger> I *thought* there was a 60 gig limit per partition too
[16:25:38] <TTRanger> Hi JonathanThompson
[16:25:47] <JonathanThompson> So, was the customer happy?
[16:26:07] <Ithamar> I think R5's mkdosfs was limited to a certain size....
[16:26:07] <TTRanger> JonathanThompson He said if he had a problem he'd get back to me and I haven't heard anything yet...so the assumption is yet.  :-)
[16:26:19] <TTRanger> JonathanThompson I'll check wtih him on Monday.  He was running it on 10,000 songs!
[16:26:30] <Ithamar> MarcusO did a fix for that, think it is even on bebits or so
[16:26:37] <JonathanThompson> I doubt it took more than an hour, even so, but checking it.... :P
[16:27:32] <JonathanThompson> Yes, TTRanger, BeOS r5 chokes past 128 GB (not billion, but power of 2) bytes.
[16:27:33] <TTRanger> Ithamar If I was going to set up a computer with larger partitions then, I'd need to use that file?
[16:27:49] <JonathanThompson> I'm currently using a 250 GB (billion) with only about 1/2 being used.
[16:28:12] <TTRanger> Ok, so theoretically Ithamar A 120 gig drive would be ok.
[16:28:18] <Ithamar> TTRanger: Only if you want to use a large FAT partition
[16:28:20] <Ithamar> yup
[16:28:34] <Ithamar> that fix is only needed for creating huge FAT partitions IIRC
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[16:28:52] <JonathanThompson> And why you'd want to have one > 32 GB is a mystery.
[16:28:53] <TTRanger> Ithamar a FAT partition can be initialized for BFS?
[16:29:07] <JonathanThompson> Any partition can.
[16:29:12] <JonathanThompson> If it is big enough.
[16:29:20] <JonathanThompson> It changes the parttion type in the process.
[16:29:24] <TTRanger> JonathanThompson Agreed, but you'd be amazed what some radio stations say they want.
[16:29:37] <Ithamar> hehe
[16:29:48] * JonathanThompson has known demanding customers that are clueless
[16:29:52] <TTRanger> For example, if a station decides they want all their music in WAV format...
[16:29:57] <TTRanger> That's 10 times the space
[16:30:01] <Ithamar> ouch
[16:30:06] <Ithamar> sounds like a bad idea
[16:30:10] <CIA-18> marcusoverhagen * r20883 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/bus_managers/ps2/ps2_common.c: attempt to fix bug #1185
[16:30:19] <JonathanThompson> If it is a high-quality station, it's good to have non compression, or lossless.
[16:30:20] <TTRanger> I was just getting ready to release terrabyte-sized TuneTracker computers when the ZETA thing hit.
[16:30:22] <Ithamar> hey dr_evil :)
[16:30:36] <dr_evil> hi Ithamar
[16:30:40] <TTRanger> dr_evil Yo
[16:30:46] <Ithamar> TTRanger: yup that sucked big time
[16:31:19] <TTRanger> JonathanThompson Yes, there is a good argument for WAV format at a radio station.
[16:31:23] <dr_evil> Ithamar this ps/2 hardware really sucks. Looks like most only halfway implement the active multiplexing specification
[16:31:26] <Ithamar> dr_evil: Is there a jam target or so to directly build onto a hdd partition from Linux?
[16:31:49] <JonathanThompson> An uncompressed file is also easier to edit with software.
[16:31:54] <TTRanger> Yes
[16:32:10] <JonathanThompson> And we all know radio stations do that all the time :)
[16:32:16] <Ithamar> dr_evil: ouch, I know your pain. We had a lot a problems getting our ps2 mouse/keyb driver to work in _all_ cases due to sucky hw
[16:32:20] <TTRanger> JonathanThompson And if anything,  I'd assume it's actually easier on the processor...no uncompressing to do.
[16:32:26] <JonathanThompson> Yes.
[16:32:39] <TTRanger> So lower overhead, better performance in playback
[16:32:46] <Ithamar> true true
[16:32:47] <dr_evil> Ithamar I never did so, but I believe that the normal jam install-haiku might work on Linux too, if you setup the /Haiku target (somewhere in a jam config file) to a partition like /dev/sda9 and run it as root
[16:33:04] <JonathanThompson> Fewer CPU hiccups, assuming fast enough hard drives that aren't too burdened (easy these days).
[16:33:07] <TTRanger> Well when Haiku comes out, we'll move to that, and have monster hard drives again.  :-)
[16:33:10] <Ithamar> dr_evil: ah ok, I'll try, thanks :)
[16:33:19] <dr_evil> I'm not sure about mkbfs beeing available for linux target
[16:33:25] <TTRanger> That is, when media is ready for primetime  :-)
[16:33:44] <JonathanThompson> By that time, hard drives should be available without using RAID in excess of 2 TB, TTRanger :)
[16:33:45] <Ithamar> TTRanger: Question, do you sell TT on pre-configured boxes, or also as a sw package?
[16:33:59] <TTRanger> both right now
[16:34:04] <dr_evil> what I did so far was using haiku-image target, copying it with dd to a partition, and running makebootable (from buildtools, works within linux) on that partition
[16:34:45] <JonathanThompson> I suspect a much lower number of independent software packages once you move to Haiku, due to driver issues, TTRanger.
[16:34:58] <JonathanThompson> It may be that you need to custom-specify box requirements.
[16:35:13] <JonathanThompson> Though that's probably likely true for people that don't have old hardware already.
[16:35:20] <TTRanger> JonathanThompson Haiku is doing a pretty good job with drivers actually!
[16:35:35] <TTRanger> We do need to have a modern audio card supported.
[16:35:49] * Ithamar hums quietly....
[16:35:53] <JonathanThompson> Yes, perhaps, but where will hardware that's sold then be compared to drivers Haiku has?  That's the question.
[16:36:15] <TTRanger> Right, they'll need to keep up.
[16:36:29] <JonathanThompson> That's easier said than done in reality.
[16:36:38] <JonathanThompson> Be never managed to completely keep up.
[16:36:39] <TTRanger> sure, but that's nothing they don't know
[16:36:45] <dr_evil> JonathanThompson I have 4 500GB FAT32 partitions
[16:36:57] <JonathanThompson> What's the cluster size, dr_evil?
[16:36:59] <TTRanger> dr_evil wow...using what version of BeOS?
[16:37:14] <dr_evil> 32kB
[16:37:27] <dr_evil> TTRanger I use them within Linux, but I beleive that BeOS should work, too
[16:37:36] <JonathanThompson> I know you can't by default format them that large under Windows.
[16:37:48] <JonathanThompson> And there's a good reason: absolutely HUGE memory requirements to track them.
[16:37:57] * Ithamar pets Linux's mkdosfs ;)
[16:38:10] <TTRanger> hehe
[16:38:14] <dr_evil> JonathanThompson yes, Windows arbitrality limits them to 32 GB
[16:38:25] <TTRanger> k gotta run... tty all later
[16:38:33] <Ithamar> l8r TTRanger
[16:38:38] <dr_evil> JonathanThompson there is no huge memory requirement to track them
[16:38:39] <JonathanThompson> Does Windows understand how to read/write them if they're already that big?  I've not had a system to test that with :P
[16:39:02] <JonathanThompson> Well, if you have a large enough file that's sufficiently fragmented, there's a huge overhead.
[16:39:06] <dr_evil> I one implemented fat32 reading in a microcontroller, independent of the partition size, it used 1 kB memory for that
[16:39:31] <dr_evil> JonathanThompson yes you can cache the fat if you need the speed
[16:39:34] <JonathanThompson> Well, if you don't buffer the FAT, sure, you can do it on very little.
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[16:40:03] <JonathanThompson> FAT with the interleaved chains does not scale well for multiple threads updating it.
[16:40:56] <Jixt_bbl> TTRanger, tell me
[16:41:03] * JonathanThompson would hope to never see a heavily-used webserver using FAT32
[16:41:22] <Ithamar> hey Jixt_bbl ;)
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[16:41:45] <dr_evil> JonathanThompson it works well for storing large files ;)
[16:41:46] <Jixt> hi Ithamar
[16:42:07] <JonathanThompson> Hope you never have it get too fragmented :P
[16:42:35] <JonathanThompson> IIRC it's limited to 2^32-1 byte files...
[16:43:23] <Jixt> Long time no see Ithamar
[16:44:17] <Ithamar> yes definitely
[16:45:17] <Ithamar> switched jobs, now work @ TomTom as manager of the platform software development teams
[16:45:51] <Ithamar> (i.e. bootloader, Linux kernel etc for their own devices)
[16:45:53] <Jixt> nice
[16:45:58] <dr_evil> JonathanThompson yes it's limited to 4GB, I know
[16:46:22] <Ithamar> yeah, ok job Jixt, just would like to move them to using Haiku :)
[16:46:24] <JonathanThompson> I suppose most movies (I'm guessing that's what you're using it for) are smaller than that, largely due to compression.
[16:46:49] <JonathanThompson> First you need to have haiku be sufficiently complete before that has a chance, Ithamar :)
[16:47:04] <Ithamar> true true :)
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[16:47:18] <Ithamar> and Haiku will need an ARM port :D
[16:47:32] <Jixt> lol Ithamar
[16:47:59] * JonathanThompson is hoping Haiku gets a LEG port for long-distance running
[16:48:22] <Ithamar> anyhow, hope we can get a proper BeGeistert arranged this year... I would definitely come ;)
[16:49:12] <gotaku> Look like I'll be spending the weekend reading that bfs book.
[16:49:13] <Jixt> so Ithamar, you are working with data you get from Tele Atlas?
[16:49:25] <JonathanThompson> My employment situation in the last year has been unstable, so even though (if things don't go wrong) I'll have the money to go, if I can't do it on a couple days on the weekend, I wouldn't likely be able to make it to the next WalterCon.
[16:50:23] <JonathanThompson> Definitely unlikely I'd be able to make it if the rumors of it being held in Europe are true: there's no way I could handle a 2-day trip to/from there and be able to work the next day.
[16:50:47] <Ithamar> Jixt: Yes, that's one of our sources for map data
[16:50:49] * JonathanThompson can't sleep on planes, and can't sit on them more than about 6 hours at a time
[16:51:12] <Jixt> I could be that I will work for them ;)
[16:51:20] <Ithamar> ah fun :D
[16:52:12] <Ithamar> JonathanThompson: I think WalterCon should stay in the USA, but there could be a more Haiku-focus @ BG as well....
[16:52:24] <JonathanThompson> I agree, Ithamar.
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[16:52:38] <Ithamar> That way you can cover both areas, and possibly share presentation material too
[16:52:44] <JonathanThompson> Of course, perhaps South America needs to organize their own thing as well, as that's a big enough area.
[16:53:09] <Ithamar> I see no need to merge, mostly a need to coorporate more :)
[16:53:12] <JonathanThompson> And it seems there's enough Haiku/Be people south of Mexico to make a difference.
[16:53:47] <Ithamar> haven't looked at the demographics in that much detail yet, but yeah, sounds like a good idea
[16:53:54] <JonathanThompson> Europe is easier to travel in for time compared to the US, partially because it's denser and has better mass transit than the US.
[16:54:07] <Ithamar> so I've heard ;)
[16:54:28] <JonathanThompson> What's the longest plane flight from one end of Europe to the farthest corner?
[16:54:41] <Jixt> I have to go
[16:54:45] <Jixt> cu guys
[16:54:51] <JonathanThompson> That can easily be >6 hours non-stop in the US, depending on start/end points, never mind Alaska/Hawaii.
[16:54:53] <Ithamar> ok speak to you soon Jixt!
[16:54:54] <JonathanThompson> Bye Jixt.
[16:55:16] <Ithamar> ouch
[16:55:24] * JonathanThompson has flown from Washington state to MA many times for meetings at employer that laid him off in September.
[16:55:43] <JonathanThompson> Yeah, I can't sit normally for at least 24 hours after those flights in the economy class.
[16:55:47] <Jixt> yeah, if you find time Ithamar, maybe you can help me with PG ;)
[16:56:48] <Ithamar> Jixt: Feel free to mail me about any possible issues (ithamar at unet dot nl)
[16:57:00] <JonathanThompson> You can (if you're demented) take a Greyhound bus from most large areas to most large areas, but how many days do you want to be sitting next to someone, with nowhere to walk?
[16:57:03] <Jixt> ok, thx!
[16:57:23] * JonathanThompson notes Ithamar can expect more spam as a result of his public posting of his email address.
[16:57:37] <Ithamar> JonathanThompson: I know, sometimes you have to take risks :)
[16:57:53] <JonathanThompson> You could have said "at" and cut it way down :P
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[16:58:15] <Ithamar> true
[16:58:18] <Ithamar> ah well
[16:58:24] <JonathanThompson> Too late now :P
[16:59:23] * JonathanThompson must get brain-dead autocompletion working today,,,, (autocomplete with no context sensitivity from all words currently in document)....
[16:59:55] <Ithamar> ouch.... web-based?
[17:00:01] <JonathanThompson> No, for my IDE.
[17:00:27] <JonathanThompson> So I can't simply use a std::map because it needs to scale, and fit in with my lexer/parser solution I'm working on.
[17:00:53] <JonathanThompson> I'm taking special care for memory management as well.
[17:00:56] <Ithamar> ah neat. gone public with the IDE yet?
[17:01:02] <JonathanThompson> I'
[17:01:19] <JonathanThompson> I've talked about it, sure, but it hasn't been shown, because there's no GUI to show :)
[17:01:22] <JonathanThompson> (not yet)
[17:01:38] <Begasus> still not?? ;)
[17:01:39] * JonathanThompson notes Ithamar must have been out of the scene for several years...
[17:01:40] <Begasus> re
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[17:01:45] <Begasus> hi Ithamar!!
[17:01:50] <JonathanThompson> Begasus, I do it when I have both time and energy :P
[17:01:59] <Ithamar> JonathanThompson: yep, out of the scene, just looking from a distance.... (my office desk at work :P)
[17:02:12] * Ithamar pets Begasus
[17:02:38] <Begasus> JonathanThompson .. you said that 5 years ago also ;)
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[17:02:50] <Begasus> meep
[17:03:09] <JonathanThompson> I didn't announce it that long ago, Begasus :P
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[17:03:17] <JonathanThompson> (It just seems that way)
[17:03:21] <Begasus> hehe ...
[17:03:22] <Ithamar> lol
[17:03:47] * Begasus remembers talks with JT long ago ... ;)
[17:03:54] <JonathanThompson> Especially since every other IDE being developed has faded into nothingness, with the developers dropping completely out of the scene :P
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[17:04:06] <Begasus> and yep you didn't announce it ;)
[17:04:28] <Ithamar> well, I still have quite a bit of code for an IDE floating around somewhere here....
[17:04:39] <Ithamar> (from pre-yT times even)
[17:04:48] <Begasus> you should work on that NIC Ithamar ;)
[17:04:49] <Ithamar> \my/
[17:04:54] * Begasus ducks
[17:05:20] <Ithamar> mostly developed on BeOS R4/5 PPC even :P
[17:05:25] <JonathanThompson> What caused the long pause, Ithamar?
[17:05:44] <Ithamar> well, after I left yT you mean?
[17:05:50] <JonathanThompson> For the IDE.
[17:06:02] <Ithamar> my work at yellowTAB basicly
[17:06:13] <JonathanThompson> Why would that cause it to pause?
[17:06:16] <Ithamar> which was pretty much 24/7 (Begasus can confirm :P)
[17:06:24] <Begasus> yep ;)
[17:06:49] <Ithamar> There was always more critical work to do then work on the IDE....
[17:07:03] <dr_evil> Ithamar is it possible that the BIOS disabled ps2 keyboard when no ps2 mouse is attached and both usb mouse and keybaord are selected?
[17:07:06] <Ithamar> You don't want to know the amount of hours that were spend on hardware support for example
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[17:07:14] <Begasus> did you tak a look at MakeMe Teknomances did Ithamar?
[17:07:19] <dr_evil> erm, not selected, connected
[17:07:49] <Ithamar> dr_evil: Yes, it is possible. Esp. if legacy mode is on in the BIOS.....
[17:07:58] <Ithamar> (usb legacy mode)
[17:08:30] <Ithamar> don't know if the USB drivers for Haiku actually switch off legacy mode correctly yet
[17:08:33] <dr_evil> ok, we will see, I hope these tests will show: http://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/1177#comment:10
[17:08:37] * Ithamar adds another TODO to his list
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[17:09:09] <JonathanThompson> Without a question, Haiku NEEDS a good IDE.
[17:09:35] <Ithamar> dr_evil: looks good (test set)
[17:09:40] <JonathanThompson> Even though there are a lot of people that swear by/at vim, vi and emacs, pe, etc. there's still a lot that won't touch them.
[17:09:43] <Ithamar> agreed JonathanThompson
[17:10:05] <JonathanThompson> BeIDE, while sufficiently stable, is just too rudimentary these days.
[17:10:21] *** petterhj- has quit IRC
[17:10:29] <JonathanThompson> And then there's the issue that it is no longer being updated, and can't legally be sold/distributed fresh :)
[17:10:49] <siarzhuk> frankly speaking ide is not only thing Haiku need. ;-D
[17:11:02] <Ithamar> lol
[17:11:07] <Ithamar> agreed too siarzhuk
[17:11:23] <Ithamar> and that's precisely why I never got around to finish my IDE for BeOS/ZETA/Haiku
[17:11:25] <JonathanThompson> Too true, siarzhuk, but having a good one helps make it easier to add other things :)
[17:11:32] <dr_evil> siarzhuk you are the one from bug report #1185?
[17:11:58] <siarzhuk> genau, Marcus!
[17:12:11] <siarzhuk> building latest revision now
[17:12:25] 
[17:12:35] <JonathanThompson> I might work on it faster if I thought there was actually a meaningful market for numbers for a commercial IDE, but it IS a small userbase total, and only a small portion of that writes code, and a fraction of that would even use an IDE.
[17:13:44] <Ithamar> should become a growing market.... if we do play right :P
[17:13:49] <Ithamar> \it/
[17:14:21] <JonathanThompson> If I get it done in a reasonable timeframe (say, before others actually beat me!) I could be a big fish in a small fish bowl :P
[17:14:31] <Ithamar> lol
[17:15:25] * JonathanThompson remembers being a beta tester for CodeLiege, and assisting them with things they asked...
[17:15:32] <Begasus> to many if's JonathanThompson :p
[17:15:51] * JonathanThompson is still in coding mode, so things are if(xxx) {yyy}
[17:17:17] <Ithamar> Begasus: yes I looked at MakeMe, which is a great start, but IMHO no true global solution
[17:17:24] <JonathanThompson> C++ exceptions are for when your application has gone beyond the point of no return value :)
[17:17:38] <Begasus> indeed Ithamar ... but still a great tool ;)
[17:18:02] <Ithamar> To be honest, I think the best solution would be to have an opensource IDE project for Haiku....
[17:18:12] <JonathanThompson> Maybe someone will extend MakeMe into an IDE over time :P
[17:18:28] <Ithamar> but someone will have to lay the base down first, give the project some body
[17:18:34] <Ithamar> (starting point to work from)
[17:18:40] <Begasus> I think that Tekno would be interested if something like that would see the light Ithamar ;)
[17:18:45] <JonathanThompson> And that body is considerable if you want something better than BeIDE.
[17:18:57] <Begasus> he's pretty great in GUI ;)
[17:19:00] <Ithamar> well, depends
[17:19:23] <Ithamar> the body could also just exist out of a clear definition document of the different components
[17:19:47] <Ithamar> maybe have the interfaces between the components worked out for a v0.1 version
[17:19:48] <JonathanThompson> Documenting what things should do/be able to do and implementing are two different beasts.
[17:20:19] <Begasus> if someone would lay out the base doc's ...
[17:20:31] <Ithamar> yup, but having the base design makes it easier to focus a set of devs (see Haiku itself, having R5 as blueprint for v1)
[17:20:57] * JonathanThompson has quite a bit of the design laid out for his IDE and documented as to how things should work, but hasn't released it to the public
[17:22:00] <Ithamar> my IDE stuf was more of an experiment on building an IDE out of a set of seperate apps, having some sensible BMessage-ing APIs in between (even Scripting :P)
[17:22:01] <JonathanThompson> The good thing about Haiku using BeOS as a model is that there's a known reference point to compare against to know when you're done, and what it needs to do.
[17:22:12] <JonathanThompson> Even though BeOS has a lot of undocumented corners :)
[17:22:35] <JonathanThompson> But you can always create test programs to compare with.
[17:23:20] <Ithamar> yep. Basicly Haiku uses R5 as a functional design (document) ;)
[17:24:06] * JonathanThompson suspects it'd be much easier/faster to only aim for BeIDE capability than what he has in mind
[17:24:18] <Ithamar> I'm sure :D
[17:24:34] <Begasus> you could do a "light" version first ;)
[17:24:56] <Begasus> IDE X PE :))
[17:25:02] <JonathanThompson> DontWorry is the closest thing BeIDE has to autocompletion, and on this system, the performance makes Visual Studio look like a speed demon, and thus is useless on this machine.
[17:25:22] <Ithamar> what I usually do (even at work now), is define the basic requirements for the perfect, singing, dancing, all-featured version, and use that to define the main set of interfaces between components
[17:25:37] <Ithamar> then I only implement a minimal feature set in there, but enough to get something to work
[17:25:40] <Ithamar> and refine from there
[17:26:05] <JonathanThompson> My life would be much simpler without insisting on autocompletion :)
[17:26:08] <Ithamar> lol, agreed, JonathanThompson
[17:26:21] <JonathanThompson> That, and decent memory management to avoid fragmentation.
[17:26:45] <JonathanThompson> Though I think the memory management thing will be easier than the other part.
[17:27:18] <JonathanThompson> Since for autocompletion, that requires a pretty good job of parsing and understanding the structure of applications in the language, and C++ is a nasty language to parse.
[17:27:58] <Ithamar> heh, that's why I used etags.sf.net for that :)
[17:28:13] <JonathanThompson> etags?  AKA ctags?
[17:28:24] <Ithamar> http://ctags.sourceforge.net/
[17:28:26] <Ithamar> yups
[17:28:28] <Ithamar> tyop
[17:28:30] <JonathanThompson> Ah.
[17:28:31] <Ithamar> typo
[17:28:35] <JonathanThompson> DontWorry uses that.
[17:29:02] <Ithamar> I used it for a fully-featured class browser too
[17:29:08] <Ithamar> worked pretty nice
[17:29:09] <JonathanThompson> I haven't looked at the code, but the performance on this machine leads me to believe DontWorry uses linked lists and searches the sequentially :P
[17:29:20] <Ithamar> lol
[17:29:35] <JonathanThompson> It would take a couple seconds, easily, for a list of autocompletion selections to pop up here.
[17:29:48] <JonathanThompson> (dual p3-450 with 256 megs RAM)
[17:29:59] <Ithamar> ouch
[17:30:11] <Ithamar> I don't really know how DontWorry works.... I never used it much
[17:30:22] <Begasus> time to upgrade JonathanThompson ;)
[17:30:23] <JonathanThompson> That's one of my design/implementation goals: have something pop up quickly enough even on this hardware.
[17:30:53] <JonathanThompson> Begasus, developing on this old system helps keep me honest for efficiency :P
[17:30:54] <dr_evil> siarzhuk already tested?
[17:30:56] <Begasus> ah .. then you have to stick with it ;)
[17:31:04] <dr_evil> hi Begasus
[17:31:07] <Begasus> hi dr_evil
[17:31:24] <Begasus> ps ..; was online with Vision yesterday in Haiku ;)
[17:31:27] <gotaku> I'm slightly confused about what the "tracker" is...what does it do?
[17:31:32] <JonathanThompson> Chances are if it is acceptable performance for my picky ways on this machine, most people will say it flies like a greased pig in a trebuchet :P
[17:31:33] <Begasus> with the laptop ;)
[17:32:29] <dr_evil> Begasus without external keyboard?
[17:32:35] <Begasus> yep
[17:32:41] <Begasus> with the internal keyboard
[17:33:01] <Begasus> the build from the factory on haiku-os
[17:33:08] <Begasus> yesterday morning
[17:33:15] <JonathanThompson> Begasus, chances are my next new system will be a Penryn-based system, since first I want to save up 6 months expense cash buffer first.
[17:33:29] <Ithamar> gotaku: Tracker is BeOS' filemanager, like the Windows Explorer or MacOS X Finder or GNOME's Nautilus
[17:34:16] <JonathanThompson> And when I upgrade, Begasus, chances are the new machine will start out with 4 GB.
[17:34:34] <Begasus> RAM JonathanThompson?
[17:34:37] <JonathanThompson> Yes :P
[17:34:43] <Begasus> w00t ;)
[17:34:48] * JonathanThompson can't find a 4 GB hard drive for sale, new :)
[17:34:58] <Begasus> lol
[17:35:01] <JonathanThompson> After all, I might find myself using it for as long as this one :PPPP
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[17:35:17] <Begasus> hi Lelldorin1
[17:35:24] <Lelldorin1> hi all
[17:35:27] <Lelldorin1> hi Begasus
[17:35:30] <JonathanThompson> <-- circa 1999
[17:35:37] <JonathanThompson> Err, correction:
[17:35:44] <Ithamar> you that young JonathanThompson? ;)
[17:35:46] <JonathanThompson> <--his computer is circa 1999
[17:36:40] <JonathanThompson> If the technology existed and I had it available, I'd likely be online the same way in the same places at that age, Ithamar :P
[17:36:45] <gotaku> Oh ok, thanks.
[17:37:03] <JonathanThompson> Alas, most computers a mere mortal could buy had cassette tape drives when I was 8 :P
[17:37:22] <Ithamar> heh
[17:37:32] <Ithamar> yw gotaku
[17:37:34] <Begasus> :P
[17:37:47] <Begasus> even Ithamar is a lot younger then me ;)
[17:38:12] * JonathanThompson notes Begasus is about old enough to wear diapers again full-time :P
[17:38:17] <Ithamar> _even_, Begasus, thanks very much :P
[17:38:26] *** MikeW has quit IRC
[17:38:39] <Begasus> np Ithamar :P
[17:38:49] <Begasus> not yet JonathanThompson :P
[17:39:05] <Begasus> that's the next genaration role :)
[17:39:26] <JonathanThompson> Just injure you back badly enough, and that'll likely change :P
[17:39:35] <Ithamar> hey guys, I'm out of here, need to get some coding done :)
[17:39:42] <JonathanThompson> (B_DONT_DO_THAT)
[17:39:54] <Begasus> rofl
[17:39:55] <dr_evil> I'm leaving too
[17:40:00] <Begasus> cu Ithamar dr_evil
[17:40:03] <dr_evil> birthday party of my brother
[17:40:06] <Begasus> nice talking as always Ithamar ;)
[17:40:08] <JonathanThompson> Bye dr_evil.
[17:40:09] <Ithamar> laters ppl!
[17:40:12] <Ithamar> ah enjoy dr_evil!
[17:40:19] <JonathanThompson> Bye Ithamar.
[17:40:20] <Begasus> viel spass dr_evil ;)
[17:40:23] <dr_evil> see you next time Ithamar
[17:40:28] <dr_evil> thanks all
[17:40:33] <Ithamar> bye!
[17:40:40] *** dr_evil has quit IRC
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[17:42:18] * JonathanThompson thinks another translation of "recursive descent" could be "in-breeding"
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[17:43:17] * JonathanThompson goes to get breakfast before a day of coding...
[17:43:25] <Begasus> enjoy JonathanThompson
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[17:56:30] <gotaku> Why isn't the disk cache asynchronously written to disk but instead must be done using sync?
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[18:02:58] <DeadYak> gotaku: because no one's written the code to do that yet, I think that's one of the SoC projects
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[18:18:34] <umccullough> MYOB, looks like i still don't have dnetc cvs access - I think jlawson got pissed at me and decided to not respond :)
[18:19:05] <MYOB> nah, he takes a lot of time out touring the world IIRC
[18:19:18] <MYOB> he was in china for a few weeks when I was waiting for access...
[18:19:25] <Begasus> http://www.bebug.be/tmp/inside.jpg
[18:19:38] <Begasus> this is NOT the way to treat your pc ;)
[18:19:43] <umccullough> heh... well after he sent me an encrypted message with my public key, i coudln't decrypt it cuz i forgot the passphrase for my private key :(
[18:19:56] <MYOB> Begasus your PC?
[18:20:01] <MYOB> umccullough that would piss him off ;)
[18:20:02] <Begasus> nope MYOB
[18:20:10] <umccullough> MYOB, so i sent him a new public key and haven't heard any response ;)
[18:20:11] <Begasus> one I'm reinstalling here
[18:20:17] <MYOB> that has to have been in a builders yard or something
[18:20:31] <Begasus> seems so ;)
[18:20:41] <MYOB> my bro in laws PC is like that - hge has a cement firm
[18:21:32] <Begasus> eeps
[18:21:36] <MYOB> all that green plastic... Pentium /// era Dell?
[18:21:39] <umccullough> heh, last time I saw that much dirt in a PC, half of it was fromt he caps in the PSU
[18:21:43] <Begasus> well you could cover yourself there ;)
[18:21:46] <Begasus> HP MYOB
[18:21:49] <Begasus> amd
[18:21:54] <MYOB> ah ok
[18:22:13] <MYOB> I like the actual PILE of dust on the gfx!
[18:22:25] <Begasus> hehe
[18:22:33] <umccullough> yeah, bet that card was happy :D
[18:22:38] <Begasus> a wonder it even is able to send signals ;)
[18:22:44] <Begasus> rofl
[18:22:45] <MYOB> I see a TV tuner there too
[18:22:49] <MYOB> they get -hot-
[18:22:56] <Begasus> yes that's why I opened the case
[18:23:09] <Begasus> no drivers so need to find out the vendor etc ...
[18:23:21] <umccullough> weren't there any signs on the outside?
[18:23:24] <Begasus> the rest of the stuff in already ok ...
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[18:23:45] <umccullough> i like how you can't see the fins on the cpu heatsink behind the fan
[18:23:48] <MYOB> umccullough rarely are there signs of the gfx vendor ;)
[18:23:59] <umccullough> MYOB, i actually meant: signs of abuse
[18:24:02] <MYOB> there is the pre-boot BIOS spew though
[18:24:07] <Begasus> the prob he had wasn't hw related ;)
[18:24:28] <Begasus> his kids had/got a thing for pr0n :P
[18:24:48] <MYOB> and he wasn't using BeOS to view it :o
[18:24:51] <Begasus> k ... going to clean this up a bit here ...
[18:25:01] <Begasus> bbl (much later) ;)
[18:25:12] <Begasus> exactly MYOB!!
[18:25:18] <Begasus> ooops ... busted :p
[18:25:26] *** Begasus is now known as Begasus_bbl
[18:25:28] <Begasus_bbl> ;)
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[18:45:31] <Yez> in order to do an svn update, I go into the directory where I first got the svn and do "svn update"?
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[18:46:48] <siarzhuk> you should go to root of your working directory. typically it is haiku in the directory you have make the checkout
[18:47:04] <siarzhuk> typically it is "haiku" subdirectory
[18:47:26] <Yez> ok, just making sure I didn't need to be one up, the one I made the haiku directory in
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[18:51:45] <ddew|bofh> o/
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[18:56:36] <MikeW> oh, I see thom has already linked hugo to the blog post
[18:56:51] <Yez> ?
[18:57:05] <ddew|bofh> the usb post?
[18:57:19] <MikeW> hrm, backup status 46%. Man, how long does it take to backup 76GB worth of stuff over the network
[18:57:40] <MikeW> no, to http://cogscanthink.blogsome.com/2007/04/27/in-haiku-ii/
[18:58:00] <ddew|bofh> ah
[18:58:03] <ddew|bofh> that one :)
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[18:59:22] <ddew|bofh> man, i have the worst case of the butterflies ever
[18:59:38] <ddew|bofh> couldn't relax if my life depended on it
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[19:06:45] <MYOB> for what reason?
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[19:08:18] <pikapika> hello
[19:08:35] <ddew|bofh> i'm heading over to mensa tomorrow to do my final exam
[19:08:42] <ddew|bofh> nervous as hell :)
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[19:08:56] <pikapika> good luck :)
[19:09:01] <Yez> go figure, I would be a little nervous about that as well
[19:09:04] <ddew|bofh> thanks
[19:09:25] <ddew|bofh> it'll look pretty awesome on my CV if I get in :P
[19:09:30] <Yez> you are a smart person, you know your stuff.  Try to relax and just do that best that you can.  No one can ask for more
[19:09:40] <Thom_Holwerda> mensa?
[19:10:00] <ddew|bofh> it's an international organisation for people with high iq
[19:10:07] <Thom_Holwerda> ah wait, yes
[19:10:08] <ddew|bofh> the top 2%
[19:10:40] <Thom_Holwerda> my brother came into contact with that, he's got an insanely high IQ too but wasted his talent (no offence, but none of your business ;) )
[19:10:44] <Thom_Holwerda> thats where i knew it from
[19:10:45] <Yez> I fit more into the "densa" category
[19:11:03] <stargater> hi
[19:11:06] <_hugo> ddew|bofh: im not sure lawrence ware would approve entering mensa just to have it in the CV :-)
[19:11:10] <ddew|bofh> i've wasted my talent too, so i see where you're coming from :)
[19:11:45] <ddew|bofh> _hugo: it's mostly because i think it's in great fun and i want to help remove some of the stigmas associated with being smart
[19:11:55] <_hugo> ddew|bofh: what stigmas?
[19:12:06] <ddew|bofh> the unsocial, losr, geek stigmas
[19:12:08] <ddew|bofh> *loser
[19:12:23] <ddew|bofh> that smart people are boring
[19:12:26] <ddew|bofh> stuff like that
[19:12:34] <_hugo> do you even bother with that? :-) being capable is the best thing in the world
[19:13:15] <Thom_Holwerda> _hugo: socialising and having friends is more important than ANY capability you have
[19:13:24] <Thom_Holwerda> man suffers greatly without it
[19:13:28] <ddew|bofh> well, i'm a black metal fan and people immediatly associate that with stupidity
[19:13:39] * JamesB192 is a moderately intelligent unsocial loser geek and proud that the tests lie.
[19:13:42] <MYOB> Thom_Holwerda and that explains many Linux users :P
[19:13:49] <gotaku> This figures... I'm trying to debug that unzip problem but now the thing will refuse to enter KDL.
[19:13:51] <Thom_Holwerda> MYOB: heh
[19:14:13] <Yez> gotaku I encountered that problem once...
[19:14:18] <_hugo> Thom_Holwerda: thats completely irrelevant in the context of your capabilities
[19:14:29] <_hugo> Thom_Holwerda: being smart or not doesnt make you have more or less friends
[19:14:32] <Yez> never could reproduce it or I would have added to that bug report ... sorry
[19:14:37] <_hugo> ddew|bofh: i fail to see your point :-)
[19:14:44] <MYOB> as goes socialising, I'm trying to get the 'official' BeOS VLC 0.8.6b built, then I'm off out to dinner + clubbing with four women :P
[19:14:52] <Thom_Holwerda> _hugo: ddew|bofh: the unsocial, losr, geek stigmas
[19:14:53] <Thom_Holwerda> [7:12pm] ddew|bofh: *loser
[19:14:53] <Thom_Holwerda> [7:12pm] ddew|bofh: that smart people are boring
[19:15:11] <_hugo> Thom_Holwerda: smart people usually make friends among themselves
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[19:15:27] <Thom_Holwerda> _hugo: yes, but that is NOT what ddew|bofh was saying
[19:15:45] <_hugo> well, like i said, i fail to see ddew|bofh's point
[19:16:39] <gotaku> Bah, after I started dumping some debug info out I've been able to unzip the devtools twice without it having an unhandled page fault.
[19:16:42] <gotaku> One more time...
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[19:17:06] <MYOB> the issue is theres many "smart" people who don't know any others to be friends with, and end up being close to socially excluded
[19:17:22] <MYOB> due to no ability or no desire to socialise with people they can't talk geeky with
[19:17:27] <_hugo> gotaku: if that continues then the cause is probably a race condition, where the time the kernel spends printing the information is sufficient to invalidate the race
[19:17:39] <ddew|bofh> or just because you've got high standards
[19:17:47] <gotaku> Could be.
[19:17:48] <Sloar> maybe before the internet but many have friends online now
[19:17:49] <Thom_Holwerda> MYOB: exactly, and the problem is that in order to fully show one's potential, one needs friends
[19:18:07] <Sloar> social barriers have mostly been broken
[19:18:12] <Thom_Holwerda> Sloar: online freinds are irrlevant
[19:18:21] <MYOB> ddew|bofh "high standards" sounds extremely like an attempt to justify knowing virtually no-one
[19:18:22] <Sloar> how so?
[19:18:26] <_hugo> i dont see how entering mesa changes the fact of having or not having friends. at most you'll be able to socialize with more people which are dicks and leave a miserable life anyway
[19:18:27] <ddew|bofh> i've seen that problem with some chicks i've dated. usually smart and good looking are mutually exclusive :P
[19:18:30] <MYOB> and having online friends is seriously worse than having none
[19:18:41] <Sloar> people i talk to online have more in common than the friends i hang out with
[19:18:47] <Thom_Holwerda> Sloar: because you dont intereact with people online in a way the human body was made to interact
[19:19:06] <Thom_Holwerda> its not a psychological thing
[19:19:07] <_hugo> s/leave/live/
[19:19:10] <Thom_Holwerda> its physical
[19:19:19] <_hugo> Thom_Holwerda: uh
[19:19:24] <ddew|bofh> online mates are completely different from RL mates
[19:19:27] <MYOB> I've at least met, well, basically all of the people I talk to online as "friends"
[19:19:27] <Sloar> thom needs a girfriend?
[19:19:33] <_hugo> Thom_Holwerda: socializing is completely psychological
[19:19:40] <Thom_Holwerda> _hugo: its not
[19:19:45] <ddew|bofh> an on-line mates are kinda like the people you chat with over at the pub
[19:20:00] <MYOB> ddew|bofh minus the alcohol. and the camraderie
[19:20:01] <_hugo> socializing is not dating. obviously there are types of relationships which are physical
[19:20:03] <MYOB> and the pub
[19:20:08] <MYOB> and indeed basically eveything
[19:20:23] <ddew|bofh> MYOB: i was talking about the "type" of friendship
[19:20:32] <ddew|bofh> online friends aren't close friends
[19:20:38] <Thom_Holwerda> contact with (real-life ) people releases certain chemicals and neurotransmitters which stimulate the brain and nervous system
[19:21:06] <Thom_Holwerda> and since these chemicals etc. dont get released in online interaction
[19:21:07] <Sloar> Thom you just looking for friends or a science project?
[19:21:09] <Thom_Holwerda> they dont count
[19:21:11] <_hugo> Thom_Holwerda: that's completely irrelevant. the same stimula is driven by any kind of interaction
[19:21:39] <_hugo> ddew|bofh: your problem doesnt seem related with being smart at all if you ask me :-)
[19:21:54] <ddew|bofh> _hugo: who said I had any problems? :P
[19:22:06] <_hugo> you did :-)
[19:22:08] * JamesB192 conceives the possibilty of a pub-crawl pill that induces thirst, a headache and the same compunds as a real pub-crawl.
[19:22:26] <MYOB> JamesB192 and costs >100 euros?
[19:22:33] <Yez> ddew|bofh good luck on your test, and just be yourself and let others be themselves and every one will be happy!
[19:22:38] <ddew|bofh> i mentioned that it sucks being judged as boring simply because one likes to solve logical problems
[19:22:45] <ddew|bofh> Yez: thanks :)
[19:23:00] <Thom_Holwerda> yes, good luck ddew|bofh
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[19:23:21] <JamesB192> Sure, why not.
[19:23:26] <ddew|bofh> gonna be fun to see if my brain's back to normal after the injury
[19:23:52] <MYOB> I spent ~200 euros on Wednesday night, despite leaving the dog track with more money than I went in with
[19:24:09] <_hugo> ddew|bofh: well, in that context being smart is irrelevant. i would probably find someone who just likes to paint boring as well. if you condition yourself to certain limited contexts, obviously a lot of people, which are outside of those same contexts won't find you interesting as they don't trace any common interests to your own
[19:24:57] <MYOB> I've got a number of friends with whom I have effectively no common interests, at all...
[19:25:28] <_hugo> usually the problem with smart people is that they condition themselves to "smarty" stuff, so are conditioned to socializing with other such people which share their interests
[19:25:47] <ddew|bofh> glad i'm not in that category :)
[19:25:52] <_hugo> as the concentration of smart people is small, it usually degenerates
[19:26:03] * ddew|bofh is a fan of metal, playing ze geetar and sportscars
[19:26:12] <ddew|bofh> aside from computers ofc :P
[19:26:39] <_hugo> ddew|bofh: i don't see how people find you boring then, at least the ones that value playing the guitar or driving a sport's car
[19:26:46] * Thom_Holwerda is a fan of music, tim burton, stanely kubrick, driving+cars, and socialising
[19:26:55] <MYOB> I've also got people I know solely through dance music, and thats the sole common interest I have, that I'd think of as great friends
[19:27:10] <_hugo> MYOB: im sure you have no friends with whom you have no common interests. you probably just dont identify them
[19:27:17] <ddew|bofh> _hugo: i don't think that people find me boring, but i see that many think that smart people are boring
[19:27:37] <MYOB> _hugo well, unless you count "getting very drunk"
[19:27:40] <_hugo> ddew|bofh: eheh, so? how does that affect _you_? :-)
[19:27:49] <_hugo> MYOB: its as an interest as anything else
[19:27:59] <ddew|bofh> _hugo: not in any way :)
[19:28:00] <Thom_Holwerda> _hugo: gettind drunk is like breatinh
[19:28:05] <Thom_Holwerda> breathing*
[19:28:14] <Thom_Holwerda> everybody does it, so its not a common interest anymore
[19:28:22] <_hugo> i dont get drunk, so your point is wrong Thom_Holwerda
[19:28:42] <ddew|bofh> i avoid it like the plague
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[19:28:56] <Thom_Holwerda> reminds me fo a dead like me quote
[19:28:57] <MYOB> everyone *normal* then :P
[19:29:02] <ddew|bofh> hehe
[19:29:19] <Thom_Holwerda> "hey you have ten fingers, let's make a club of people with ten fingers, and then, when we see someone with nine fingers, we're gonna beat the crap out of him!"
[19:29:43] <_hugo> see, people distinguish themselves in groups even on small things, like drinking. so it definitely is an "interest"
[19:29:55] <ddew|bofh> mensa is more like a think-tank than an elitist club really
[19:30:30] <Yez> gotaku I got it, I just KDL'ed while unzipping!!!
[19:30:35] <MikeW> It's true. People only want to talk to other people about things they are interested in
[19:30:38] <_hugo> ddew|bofh: to be honest "mensa" was irrelevant here, at least for me. i just found it curious you were taking the test to prove something, and then assume you in fact have no problems with being smart
[19:30:56] <MikeW> I just read the back buffer and ddew|bofh wants to keep talking about mensa and "smart" all the time, even when it's not relevant
[19:30:58] <Yez> what info wuod be best to help solve this problem?
[19:31:07] <_hugo> Yez: you probably dont have the debug info gotaku has enabled
[19:31:18] <Yez> crap
[19:31:21] <MikeW> same as some nerds who go to the pub and only want to talk about programming, or whatever
[19:31:22] <ddew|bofh> MikeW: you're right, i'm sorry
[19:31:27] <_hugo> Yez: but type "sc" and put that in a ticket
[19:31:36] <Yez> so, stack crawls and ... ok
[19:31:37] <gotaku> Actually I just went into KDL while unzipping.
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[19:34:31] <ddew|bofh> hopefully the networking bug i kept running into a few builds ago is fixed
[19:34:52] <ddew|bofh> kept hitting kdl whenever i tried to access any hosts on the LAN
[19:35:32] <_hugo> ddew|bofh: if you bump into any problems, let us know here or open a ticket
[19:35:37] <_hugo> but i think the bug you refer to as been fixed
[19:35:44] <_hugo> s/as/has/
[19:36:13] <ddew|bofh> looks like it :)
[19:36:43] <ddew|bofh> don't see anjyy changes on cia that might be related to it though
[19:36:46] <ddew|bofh> must've been a fluke
[19:37:56] <_hugo> ``fixed arp's ClearQueue when an entry is rejected.''
[19:38:03] <_hugo> r20726
[19:38:09] <ddew|bofh> i had it with 873
[19:38:22] <_hugo> oh, must have been something else then
[19:38:27] <ddew|bofh> indeed
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[19:39:19] <_hugo> but 20873 is from yesterday, so no changes have been comitted related to network. so if you kdl again, please get us a stacktrace
[19:39:37] <ddew|bofh> yeah, will do
[19:39:43] <[Beta]> #haiku got very deep earlier, sad I missed it.
[19:40:45] <Thom_Holwerda> ok im going to regret this remark forever but HELL i have a milf living on my street
[19:41:08] * Thom_Holwerda crawls back under his desk
[19:41:35] <MYOB> how old?
[19:41:48] <Thom_Holwerda> roughly 30 i'd say
[19:41:49] <ddew|bofh> the only MILF to me is Angelina Jolie :P
[19:41:58] *** Begasus_bbl is now known as Begasus
[19:42:06] <Thom_Holwerda> she doesnt seem to be married or anything though
[19:42:23] <umccullough> but she has kids?
[19:42:28] <Thom_Holwerda> yup
[19:42:40] <Yez> what is the current build?  i just updated
[19:42:41] <umccullough> danger!
[19:42:42] <umccullough> ;)
[19:42:55] <Thom_Holwerda> ive only been living here for like 9 months so im still trying to figure out who everyone is
[19:42:59] <Thom_Holwerda> but she's hot, and has kids
[19:43:01] <Thom_Holwerda> so milf
[19:43:02] <Begasus> umccullough ... http://www.bebug.be/tmp/inside2.jpg
[19:43:05] <Begasus> after ;°
[19:43:06] <Begasus> ;)
[19:43:20] <umccullough> lol, what? is that a brand new computer?
[19:43:26] <Begasus> hoi Thom_Holwerda ;)
[19:43:31] <Thom_Holwerda> hey
[19:43:32] <Begasus> :))
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[19:43:52] <umccullough> Begasus, that's definitely night and day
[19:44:03] <Begasus> Thom_Holwerda .. you should check the pre version .... http://www.bebug.be/tmp/inside.jpg
[19:44:03] <Begasus> ;)
[19:44:13] <Begasus> like black and white umccullough ;)
[19:44:21] <umccullough> yup
[19:44:33] <[Beta]> filth
[19:44:38] <ddew|bofh> whoa
[19:44:39] <Thom_Holwerda> dude
[19:45:01] <[Beta]> I think I can see a rat skeleton
[19:45:06] <Begasus> a wonder the pc even booted with that amount of dust :p
[19:45:07] <umccullough> lol
[19:45:11] <Begasus> hehe
[19:45:23] <[Beta]> afk, back to quake2
[19:45:30] *** rgb has joined #haiku
[19:45:38] <Begasus> driver hunting now ... ;)
[19:45:45] <ddew|bofh> didn't someone say that mounting your harddrives vertically is a bad thing?
[19:46:07] <Begasus> you should talk to hp then ddew|bofh ;)
[19:46:09] <umccullough> ddew|bofh, a lot of pc manufacturers do it
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[19:46:13] <umccullough> dell does it also
[19:46:19] <umccullough> or at least, they did
[19:46:32] <Jixt> hi
[19:46:43] <Begasus> hi Jixt ;)
[19:46:47] <ddew|bofh> ah well, as long as it works i guess :)
[19:46:51] <ddew|bofh> lo Jixt
[19:47:42] <gotaku> Hm, The unhandled page fault seems to always happen on the fifth memmove in the SplitNode function.
[19:48:02] <Jixt> Begasus, were you able to give the package to B?
[19:48:33] <Begasus> yep Jixt mailed him
[19:48:40] <Jixt> ok thx
[19:49:03] <Begasus> np
[19:49:04] <Jixt> I will try and make a version for Haiku
[19:49:12] <Jixt> I will take a look if it works ;-)
[19:49:15] <Begasus> okies ...
[19:49:23] <Begasus> ;)
[19:49:56] <Jixt> The problem is that I'm running Haiku in VMWare
[19:50:04] <Begasus> tse ..
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[19:50:26] <stargater> Thom_Holwerda, hi, why add you not the haiku-os.org/blog ? in your news =http://osnews.com/story.php/17787/Using-Haikus-USB-Stack-on-R5
[19:51:03] <stargater> Thom_Holwerda, http://haiku-os.org/blog/mmlr/2007-04-20/using_the_haiku_usb_stack
[19:51:16] <Thom_Holwerda> euh im linking to his personal blog
[19:51:22] <Thom_Holwerda> that's where i found it
[19:51:28] <stargater> can you edit this url ? that whas nicer for haiku
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[19:52:00] <stargater> Thom_Holwerda,  he have a acount on haiku-os.org , this is personal blog too
[19:52:31] <Thom_Holwerda> it's just a case of proerly attributing sources, the haiku-os blog just pulls it from his personal blog too
[19:52:47] <Thom_Holwerda> if everyones hell bent on it ill change it but i dont really see the point
[19:52:49] <umccullough> actually, i think he re-posted it there
[19:53:02] <umccullough> but i don't see how it matters all that much :)
[19:53:42] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: exactly
[19:53:49] <Thom_Holwerda> i dont see the hubub either :)
[19:53:57] <Thom_Holwerda> im willing to change, but i dont see the point
[19:53:58] <stargater> Thom_Holwerda,  he have to late see the new dev blog function on haiku-os
[19:54:28] <stargater> the point is : haiku-os.rg is the point from developing haiku
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[19:54:52] <umccullough> the only plus might be that people visiting the link might have an easier time navigating to other haiku-related topics from the official site as opposed to his blog :)
[19:55:49] <ddew|bofh> any tips for running r5 in vmware?
[19:56:00] <ddew|bofh> it's pretty dog slow here :(
[19:56:04] <stargater> more people see haiku-osg and when developer add a article. ore blog, that give more points and more facts to see haiku os is no stay still ...
[19:56:06] <kokito> Thom_Holwerda, there is a point to changing the link: it potentially exposes the other content in the Haiku website to those who click to read the blog.
[19:56:10] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku
[19:56:33] <stargater> hello Lelldorin1
[19:56:42] <Lelldorin1> hi stargater
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[19:57:23] <umccullough> anyhow, i'm off to play with my kids - ttyl
[19:57:37] <gr00ber> haiku jr?
[19:58:58] <ddew|bofh> hf
[20:00:13] <stargater> i hope not unreal t /quake /etc..
[20:01:17] <kokito> bbl
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[20:02:08] *** JamesB192 has quit IRC
[20:04:44] <Sloar> anyone able to run beos in virtual pc7 on a ppc mac?
[20:05:04] <gr00ber> boycott vpc!
[20:05:15] <Sloar> cant got a ppc mac
[20:05:28] <Sloar> or will qemu work?
[20:05:45] <Lelldorin1> qemu is running haiku
[20:05:46] <ddew|bofh> qemu ought to work
[20:05:55] <ddew|bofh> i'm running dano on it
[20:06:04] <Sloar> on a ppc mac?
[20:06:07] <ddew|bofh> as well as haiku naturally :P
[20:06:22] <ddew|bofh> qemu without acceleration should be the same on any machine
[20:06:39] <Sloar> is there an image of haiku pre made for it?
[20:06:54] <ddew|bofh> check out the build factory and use the raw image
[20:06:57] <Lelldorin1> haku-os.com
[20:07:03] <Sloar> ok
[20:07:19] <Yez> how do I do a summary in the tracWiki?
[20:07:26] <Begasus> haiku-os.org
[20:07:27] <Begasus> ;)
[20:07:29] <Lelldorin1> if you understand germen look here: http://www.besly.de/menu/search/archiv/misc/haiku_testen.html
[20:07:44] <Lelldorin1> ups Begasus
[20:07:59] <Begasus> ;)
[20:11:00] <Begasus> ps .. don't think that there are ppc builds around ;)
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[20:12:11] <ddew|bofh> it'd be way neat to have haiku or beos running on newer ppc macs :)
[20:15:02] <Begasus> best to stay focus on one thing then to shift around on seperate hw
[20:15:08] <Begasus> imho ;)
[20:15:27] <Begasus> I thiink it would complecate a lot more ...
[20:15:31] <ddew|bofh> of course, and i'm happy they're sticking to x86 for the moment
[20:15:37] <ddew|bofh> but one can dream ;)
[20:16:17] <geist> there are positive aspects to running on multiple platforms. it tends to keep you honest about certain stuff
[20:16:42] <ddew|bofh> i think it's something to aim for post-R1
[20:16:56] <Yez> geist how do I add a summary to a trac ticket?  it won't let me submit my ticket without a summary
[20:16:57] <Begasus> yeah geist ... if you have a stable build on one platform ... ;-)
[20:17:04] <geist> do keep in mind the kernel is pseudo ported to ppc
[20:17:07] <Begasus> right ddew|bofh .. my thoughts too
[20:17:22] * geist could care less about R1 and post R1 and all that mess
[20:17:36] <ddew|bofh> geist: pseudo ported menaning that endian issues are being concidered and so on?
[20:17:43] <Begasus> I presume porting to ppc goes way further then only the kernel ... or not?
[20:17:43] <Begasus> :))
[20:17:48] <geist> and the low level ppc stuff is there
[20:17:54] <geist> i had already ported newos to ppc
[20:18:02] <ddew|bofh> cool
[20:18:09] <geist> Begasus: yes, but most of it is the kernel (and drivers)
[20:19:05] <Begasus> neaat geist ...
[20:19:24] <Thom_Holwerda> do haiku programmer shave portability in mind>?
[20:19:27] <Thom_Holwerda> when writing their code?
[20:19:36] <gr00ber> real mean don't shave
[20:19:46] <Begasus> but I think the focus for the os should still be kept to one platform for the time being ... (just my thoughts)
[20:19:46] <gr00ber> men
[20:19:48] <geist> for the most part, yeah
[20:19:53] <Begasus> hehe
[20:20:06] <Thom_Holwerda> ok
[20:20:29] <geist> the api is already 'portable' in the sense that it doesn't expose any endianness problems
[20:20:46] <geist> so its really just a matter of fixing the kernel builds every once in a while as the interfaces change internally
[20:21:21] <Thom_Holwerda> nice
[20:21:57] <geist> and eventually write the drivers for various interrupt controllers, etc
[20:22:27] <Thom_Holwerda> luckily, there's enough open source code to look at
[20:22:30] <pyCube> when is the kernel api bindings for python gonna be done.... :-p
[20:22:33] <Thom_Holwerda> both gpl as well as bsd/mit
[20:23:06] <gr00ber> pyCube, heh, I just bound my kernel api to LUA :)
[20:23:10] <gr00ber> friggin' awesome language
[20:23:22] <pyCube> heh
[20:23:28] <geist> dealin with it a bit at work. our game engine runs on lua
[20:23:29] <pyCube> i want python damnit!
[20:23:29] <gr00ber> should be easy to add to haiku as well
[20:23:38] <gr00ber> geist, how cool
[20:24:21] <gr00ber> it's quite efficient, since most of the virt machines is realized as pretty darn well written C code
[20:24:30] <gr00ber> virt machine functions
[20:24:33] <pyCube> that os, er...website describing a not-quite-existing os.. called unununium sounded pretty neato
[20:24:33] <geist> well, i wouldn't called it 'darn well written C code'
[20:24:37] <geist> but it's reasonably efficient
[20:24:51] <gr00ber> well written wrt to efficiency :)
[20:25:05] <geist> it's definitely nonzero cost for our engine though. as the game logic gets bigger, we're seeing it take up more and more time of the frame
[20:25:07] <gr00ber> all I had to do was replace libc-ism with gcc builtins
[20:25:13] <geist> it's all about the magic 16ms (60fps)
[20:25:19] <gr00ber> i see
[20:25:25] <geist> when lua starts using up 2 or 3 ms, that's worrysome
[20:25:28] *** Begasus is now known as Begasus_bbl
[20:25:29] <Begasus_bbl> hunting food ...
[20:25:32] <Begasus_bbl> cya'll later ;)
[20:25:33] <gr00ber> can the eye distinguise 60 fps from 50 fps?
[20:25:49] <gr00ber> (i know there's typo there)
[20:25:54] <geist> probably not
[20:26:05] <geist> in europe you have slightly more headroom because of that
[20:26:29] <gr00ber> what :) ?
[20:26:35] <pyCube> iirc, the brain reads the retina at something more like 30ish "fps"
[20:26:35] <geist> because the tvs run at 25/50
[20:26:41] <gr00ber> ah, yeah
[20:26:46] <gr00ber> our PALs
[20:27:08] <geist> and there are HDs that run at 50, though i dont know if they exist
[20:27:14] <geist> 1080i50
[20:27:40] <gr00ber> required because of the interlacing maybe
[20:27:49] <geist> no, required because europe wanted it that way
[20:27:57] <gr00ber> hm
[20:28:18] <geist> but yeah, i think HD mostly runs at 60 everywhere
[20:28:37] <gr00ber> and "by europe " I take it you mean the european union (of which we're not a part)
[20:28:56] <geist> and more
[20:29:03] <geist> folks that dont use NTSC
[20:29:06] <pyCube> my first run-in with PAL was in the days of c64 and amiga demos
[20:29:12] <gr00ber> ye ok
[20:29:36] <geist> and actually some countries in south america use PAL at 60, or was it NTSC at 50?
[20:29:39] <gr00ber> i 'member reading that the PIT clock frequency is related to NTSC somehow...
[20:29:54] <geist> yup, but not for the same reasons you think
[20:30:06] <pyCube> i remember having a boot disk for my amiga that would boot up in a pal mode so that euro demos would be properly timed
[20:30:07] <geist> it's related because the original crystal IBM used is very cheap
[20:30:12] <gr00ber> sure
[20:30:14] <geist> because of all the TVs out there
[20:30:23] <gr00ber> right, makes sense
[20:31:06] <gr00ber> hm, joost seems to be handing out streams in 640*480
[20:31:12] <gr00ber> pretty good
[20:31:24] <pyCube> what is that joost thing anyway?
[20:31:31] <gr00ber> p2p tv
[20:32:15] <pyCube> neato
[20:32:42] <pyCube> so, where does one get an invite ? heh
[20:32:46] <gr00ber> i'm watching a scifi which is kinda like a mix of Total Recall and a host of sci-fi series
[20:32:53] <gr00ber> pyCube, ask a friend
[20:32:58] <gr00ber> who is on the beta
[20:33:06] <pyCube> i know no geeks
[20:33:12] <pyCube> in real life anyway
[20:33:13] <gr00ber> !.!
[20:33:27] <gr00ber> maybe ebay then
[20:33:32] <pyCube> i dont think i have a friend how actually owns a computer
[20:33:47] <gr00ber> you're from Kongo?
[20:34:05] <Thom_Holwerda> i dont know any geeks either
[20:34:10] <pyCube> most of my friends are hippies and artists
[20:34:24] <gr00ber> pyCube, haha, $0.01 at ebay
[20:34:31] <gr00ber> joost invit tokens
[20:34:49] <gr00ber> 21 minutes left
[20:34:56] <gr00ber> go go go
[20:35:07] <pyCube> heh..um.. couldnt possibly be worth it
[20:35:21] <pyCube> not $ wise, but effort wise
[20:35:37] <gr00ber> 24 h pr0n and sci fi dude
[20:35:48] <pyCube> i havent had a tv for almost 5 years
[20:36:13] <pyCube> the idea of tv, but tv where i can choose content seems interesting
[20:36:40] <MikeW> joost invites for sale? sheesh
[20:36:53] <gr00ber> of course, ebay has it all :)
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[20:38:40] <MikeW> joost doesn't work through HTTP proxies so I couldn't use it
[20:38:42] <pyCube> sci-fi doesnt do much for me..
[20:38:59] <pyCube> i am a documentary fiend
[20:39:21] <pyCube> if its got stale narration, and its about something, i'll watch it
[20:39:27] <pyCube> heh
[20:40:40] <MYOB> we need to get you BBC4 :P
[20:47:05] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20884 /haiku/trunk/src/tools/fs_shell/stat_util.h: Copy'n'paste oversight.
[20:47:54] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20885 /haiku/trunk/src/tools/fs_shell/ (command_cp.cpp command_cp.h fssh.cpp): Added cp command.
[20:48:31] <shackan> gr00ber, no joost for linux, I guess? (I'm a beta tester, but used it only once)
[20:48:49] <gr00ber> win + mac i think
[20:48:52] <shackan> bleh
[20:48:55] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20886 /haiku/trunk/src/tools/fs_shell/Jamfile: Add cp command source file too.
[20:49:02] <gr00ber> shackan, vmware player comes to rescue :)
[20:49:33] <shackan> oh, no way
[20:49:43] <gr00ber> anyway, joost or not - i can see after using it a while that trad TV is basically dead
[20:50:08] <gr00ber> will take 5-10 years, but the bandwidth problem is solved and the deals with the media companies are starting to get in place
[20:50:10] <shackan> not enough space to a virtual install of windows (vmplayer won't boot from my disk) and no time to watch tv :P
[20:50:18] <gr00ber> huh
[20:50:29] <shackan> anyway, yes, I think you're right
[20:51:24] <pyCube> i just grab torrents of the few tv programs i actually care about
[20:51:45] <gr00ber> aw, fsck, hotmail account deactivated again...
[20:52:04] <shackan> uh? why?
[20:52:16] <gr00ber> havent' visited the past 90 days apparently
[20:52:30] <shackan> that's ridicolous
[20:52:41] <shackan> (why on earth do you use hotmail btw?)
[20:52:45] <gr00ber> i don't
[20:52:49] <gr00ber> but i did some years ago
[20:53:11] <gr00ber> and i still get important mail there, because not everybody has bothered to update their mailing lists, records or whatever
[20:54:29] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20887 /haiku/trunk/ (14 files in 5 dirs): rewrote the object cache (slab) implementation a bit, preparing for further integration.
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[21:08:07] <kokito> emitrax_!
[21:14:45] <gotaku> Heh, check this out: void */*fs*/
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[21:15:01] <soapdog> hello friends!
[21:15:28] <gotaku> Confused me for a second ;)
[21:15:49] <gr00ber> does that resolve to a comment or not in your compiler?
[21:16:28] <soapdog> my connection is with 24% packet loss, checking out the buildtools is taking forever... :-(
[21:16:40] <gr00ber> !
[21:17:10] <gotaku> It resolves to a comment but Vim's syntax highlighting doesn't understand it.
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[21:19:50] <gr00ber> yuk
[21:20:03] <gr00ber> i threw out vim a few months ago actually
[21:20:29] <gotaku> In favour of?
[21:20:34] <gr00ber> slickedit
[21:21:01] <gr00ber> mostly because it supports refactoring in c and c++ w/some fancy code navigation (slickedit 2007)
[21:21:29] <gr00ber> vim with ctags and cppcomplete is decent though
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[21:21:58] <gotaku> Does the bfs file system add-on do any locking itself?
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[21:24:36] <gotaku> SlickEdit for Linux = $284.00
[21:24:38] <gotaku> No thanks.
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[21:51:44] <gotaku> What does FUNCTION() do?
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[21:59:15] <geist> gotaku: in the asm?
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[22:01:06] <geist> _hugo: you go hugo
[22:01:26] <geist> btw, when you get it basically finished, drop me a ping and i'll do a double check of it, to see if there are any hidden VM gotchas you weren't aware of
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[22:05:54] <_hugo> geist: will do, thanks for the help
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[22:12:27] <gotaku> geist: I see FUNCTION at the start of some function in the kernel.
[22:12:40] <geist> an assembly function?
[22:12:54] <gotaku> No.
[22:13:31] <geist> would you care to tell me what the function is so I can look it up?
[22:14:18] <gotaku> geist: FUNCTION(("create_new_vnode()\n")); in the create_new_vnode function in vfs.cpp for example
[22:14:37] * geist looks. that's not his code
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[22:15:10] <_hugo> gotaku: in the same file you have
[22:15:15] <_hugo> #define FUNCTION(x) dprintf x
[22:15:16] <geist> define FUNCTION(x) dprintf x
[22:15:38] <geist> it's kind of a dumb name personally, but what the hey
[22:16:07] <geist> actually what i would have done is have a macro that automatically expands __FUNCTION__
[22:16:31] <geist> ie TRACE_FUNCTION() do { dprintf(__FUNCTION__ "\n"); } while(0);
[22:16:58] <_hugo> geist: that would work nicely for C, in C++ though __FUNCTION__ gets the mangled version
[22:17:07] <geist> there's another one
[22:17:10] <_hugo> there's a PRETTY_FUNCTION or something like that
[22:17:13] <_hugo> yeah
[22:17:14] <geist> yeah that one
[22:17:25] <gotaku> Also, am I right in assuming that no locking is needed within file system modules?
[22:17:36] <geist> absolutely incorrect
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[22:17:49] <gotaku> Yeah figures.
[22:17:50] <geist> file systems are probably the most lock heavy, complex locking code in any kernel
[22:18:09] <geist> at least decent ones. you can also generally get away with one massive lock around the whole fs, but that sucks performance wise
[22:18:20] <gotaku> I mean internal to the implementation, bfs for example.
[22:18:30] <geist> yep, lots of locks
[22:19:05] <geist> a general implementation has probably a reader/writer lock per node, and 4 or 5 other global (for that file system mount instance) locks around stuff like bitmap allocation, journal, etc
[22:19:21] <geist> and the locking gets really complicated on the few times that you need to gragb locks for multiple nodes
[22:19:28] <geist> rename() is by far the most complex fs operation
[22:19:34] <gotaku> Is this for efficiency?
[22:19:52] <geist> since you generally need to grab a lock on 2 directory nodes and one or more file nodes
[22:20:09] <geist> plus you need to do a full tree walk for one of the nodes to make sure you dont move a parent directory into a child dir
[22:20:30] <gotaku> Yes I read that in the bfs book.
[22:20:32] <geist> that's very deadlock prone, typically you need some sort of safe algorithm for acquiring the locks in a particular order
[22:26:14] <gotaku> I'm glad the source code is neatly formatted at least ;)
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[22:29:32] <dr_evil> this keybaord controller is stupid
[22:29:33] <dr_evil> ps2: ps2_dev_command cmd 0xff, out-count 0, in-count 2, dev input/mouse/ps2/0
[22:29:33] <dr_evil> ps2: ps2_write_ctrl 0x90
[22:29:33] <dr_evil> ps2: ps2_write_data 0xff
[22:29:33] <dr_evil> ps2: ps2_interrupt ctrl 0xf1, data 0xfe (mouse 3)
[22:29:33] <dr_evil> ps2: input/mouse/ps2/3 not enabled, data 0xfe dropped
[22:29:46] <dr_evil> 0x90 prefix means mouse 0, not 3
[22:30:21] <dr_evil> prefixes 0x91 to 0x93 do work properly to address the other mouse devices 1 to 3
[22:31:19] <dr_evil> data 0xfe means nack, and clearly belongs to mouse 0, because mouse 3 does exist and will ack later
[22:32:37] <dr_evil> perhaps the intern implemented this keyboard controller... :/
[22:34:05] <geist> i remember at Be we had to spend a lot of time on the keyboard driver
[22:34:11] <geist> dealing with all the broken controllers out there
[22:35:49] <dr_evil> (un)fortunately, my notebook has a fully working and active multiplexing specification compliant keybc
[22:36:52] <dr_evil> it appears that only the first command fails, perhaps I need to try something else..
[22:39:07] <Sloar> geist are you the only former be employee here?
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[22:41:01] <dr_evil> he's probably the only one not hiding ;)
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[22:42:50] <Sloar> i think being a former be employee is as cool as a former 3dfx employee two of my favorite technologies
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[22:43:19] <[Beta]> Who is the former 3dfx employee?
[22:43:30] <Sloar> dunno
[22:43:50] <Sloar> just two of my favorite technologies
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[22:46:48] * dr_evil is a former Fraunhofer employee
[22:47:13] <Sloar> what is that?
[22:47:31] <[Beta]> dr_evil, half cool: audio patents suck! (imho)
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[22:48:03] <geist> Sloar: i guess, yeah
[22:48:15] <dr_evil> yes, agreed. at least I worked at a different institute, but still
[22:48:41] <[Beta]> what'd you get up to working there, Marcus?
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[22:49:39] <dr_evil> well the usual things [Beta]
[22:50:48] <Sloar> make coffee, have a smoke, check email, get another cup of coffee, have another smoke, goto lunch, half my day is done
[22:51:05] <MYOB> Sloar your.... you're one of our engineers aren't you!
[22:51:14] <Sloar> i wish
[22:51:22] <Sloar> not smart enough yet
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[22:57:09] <dr_evil> hi siarzhuk
[22:57:16] <siarzhuk> h5
[22:57:21] <siarzhuk> hi
[22:57:31] <_hugo> geist: does 'lock' in x86 force the commit of all outstanding writes?
[22:57:53] <siarzhuk> dr_evil I have closed #1185. thanks
[22:58:03] <dr_evil> siarzhuk we are not done yet I think
[22:58:23] <dr_evil> there is still some error visible in the logfile
[22:58:27] <_hugo> i read that lock ensures that only one cpu access the memory bus, but im not sure about cache consistency
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[22:59:22] <MikeW> woohoo, this backup is going for it's SIXTH HOUR!
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[23:02:19] <MYOB> MikeW doing it to Amazon S3 on yer fiddysixkay?
[23:03:05] * MikeW blushes
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[23:03:37] <MikeW> MYOB: No, I'm doing it to my Windows Home Server box, but I'm not impressed
[23:04:09] <MikeW> When I stop being lazy, my S3 account will contain all the beos apps and source I can ever find
[23:04:35] <MYOB> and when I stop being lazy I'll get my arse in to town for clubbing, but I haven't managed to stop yet
[23:04:39] <MYOB> :P
[23:05:11] <MikeW> as I was walking across the campus yesterday, in the sunshine, I was thinking to myself. I've never been clubbing. What *IS* clubbing?
[23:05:16] <Sloar> where is the bebook at i cant find it on access site?
[23:05:31] <_hugo> Sloar: write "bebook" in google
[23:05:35] <_hugo> first hit
[23:05:41] <MikeW> (I guess this is a followon from the: Some nerds don't know what fun is)
[23:05:49] <umccullough> beunited still hosts the annotated version
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[23:05:57] <MYOB> MikeW hard to describe
[23:06:19] <umccullough> oh, that's the first hit :)
[23:06:47] <_hugo> umccullough: :-)
[23:07:06] <umccullough> there's also this one: http://bebits.com/app/4466
[23:07:48] <MYOB> MikeW come down here some weekend and I'll show you
[23:07:50] <umccullough> not sure what "try before you buy" really means...
[23:08:36] <Sloar> ok got it from bebits, thank you
[23:08:43] <MikeW> MYOB: I doubt I could enter a club with a crutch
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[23:08:51] <MYOB> MikeW you on crutches again?
[23:08:57] <MYOB> and yes you could, they're all disabled accessible - by law
[23:09:14] <MYOB> I've gone to a few clubs with Charlie (you don't know him) who's in a wheelchair
[23:09:41] <MikeW> Whatever happened to the guy who was creating the haiku software archive (who was including images actually in the page source)?
[23:09:47] * umccullough wonders about wheelchairs and alcohol
[23:10:07] <umccullough> MikeW, you referring to osdrawer?
[23:10:08] <MikeW> If he doesn't continue building his site, it will be less fun to go and beat him
[23:10:15] <MikeW> no, osdrawer is a different thing
[23:10:40] <umccullough> i seem to recall what you're referring to...
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[23:11:41] <[Beta]> was on the lists, yeah?
[23:11:50] <MikeW> [Beta]: yeah
[23:11:58] <[Beta]> heard nothing
[23:12:00] <MikeW> charlie was unimpressed by his shit site
[23:12:08] <[Beta]> I think some mild trolling could've put him off
[23:12:18] <umccullough> heh, i remember someon telling him NOT to make it look like beos or something - that one?
[23:12:40] <MikeW> well I'm gonna maintain compatability with bebits program numbers :)
[23:13:29] <mmadia> making a new software repository website MikeW ?
[23:13:47] <[Beta]> MikeW, or just add an optional bebits id to each app, add provide a /bebits/ID redirect ?
[23:14:01] <MikeW> mmadia: yes, although primarily it is for my own personal use
[23:14:12] <MikeW> [Beta]: Good idea
[23:14:29] <MikeW> as MYOB can tell you, I have an irrational fear of loosing any data, ever
[23:14:47] <MYOB> as well as a fetish for obtaining it
[23:14:56] <MikeW> when I visit bebits and get hit by ads and broken links, I get rather worried that all this software will slip away
[23:15:25] <MikeW> so I'm getting things setup so that I'll have a local mirror of all the be software shared on BeShare, everything on BeBits and everything MYOB has
[23:15:54] <mmadia> including .html files?  : )
[23:16:01] <MikeW> and then start hunting you all down to stick up any binaries you lot have hanging around that isn't on bebits anymore
[23:16:06] <MikeW> mmadia: of course
[23:16:45] <umccullough> heh
[23:16:47] <MikeW> This will be for my own use, but I'll open it up to the public so its useful for them too
[23:17:01] * umccullough likes the idea
[23:17:22] <MikeW> MYOB: No snide comments to make?
[23:17:25] <mmadia> bebits might freak if their html's are available on the web.
[23:17:32] <MikeW> bebits are still alive?
[23:17:35] <MikeW> fuck em
[23:17:42] <mmadia> but sharing them over beshare definitel sounds wonderful.
[23:17:46] <MikeW> Their site is littered with ads and broken links
[23:17:47] <MYOB> MikeW I've made them to you before surely?
[23:17:49] <umccullough> bebits doesn't even moderate any more :(
[23:17:56] <MikeW> mmadia: No, its a one way pull from beshare
[23:18:06] <MikeW> mmadia: I've tried playing with muscle, its damn scary
[23:18:09] <mmadia> well,  it's still in their legal stuff section.
[23:18:59] * MikeW bits nails and twitches in glee
[23:19:06] <umccullough> the downloads are more important than the bebits content anyhow
[23:19:19] <MikeW> umccullough: yeah, I'm sticking it all on Amazon S3
[23:19:47] <umccullough> i'll be curious to hear what the size ends up being when you get through most of what you can :)
[23:19:47] <MikeW> if I see another link that points to geocities, I'll go insane
[23:20:08] <MikeW> umccullough: well if I don't get it all online, at least I'll have a copy of it
[23:20:29] <MikeW> osdrawer seems to have different goals... of providing project hosting
[23:20:42] <umccullough> yes, they look to be a sf.net/berlios.de style setup
[23:21:14] <MikeW> man, I'm getting excited again. I can't wait to make the trip to MYOB's house to get the first lot of data
[23:21:37] <umccullough> heh, you collecting PPC stuff too?
[23:22:02] <MikeW> why not, I saw some slow crap on MYOBs PPC BeOS system
[23:22:15] <MYOB> hah
[23:22:23] <MikeW> I dunno if that machine is networked though so getting files off it might be difficult
[23:22:33] <MYOB> it is! at a mahossive 10Mbit
[23:22:49] <Sloar> is there a list of applications already tested with haiku and are known to work?
[23:22:52] <MikeW> mikeubits.com/app/1 - MYOB's About BeOS Clone :)
[23:23:04] <MYOB> oh god I was so bored when I wrote that
[23:23:23] <umccullough> Sloar, not exactly, but if someone started a project like that, it would be a great contribution
[23:23:48] <Sloar> i wish i knew more of what i was doing
[23:24:41] <[Beta]> is the wiki up yet?
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[23:26:36] <MYOB> ight, clubbing
[23:26:43] <umccullough> bye
[23:26:44] *** MYOB has quit IRC
[23:27:30] <umccullough> ok, i gotta steal the ram out of this machine to test a new box...bbl
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[23:28:18] <dr_evil> siarzhuk can you try this file? http://dev.haiku-os.org/attachment/ticket/1185/ps2?format=raw
[23:29:28] <siarzhuk> replace bus manager?
[23:29:46] <dr_evil> yes
[23:31:10] <dr_evil> this sends a bunch of useless commands to the various mouse ports, before the input server starts
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[23:34:57] <CIA-18> bonefish * r20888 /haiku/trunk/src/tools/fs_shell/fssh.cpp: Added support for changing the host platform cwd to the cd command.
[23:35:44] <CIA-18> hugosantos * r20889 /haiku/trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs):
[23:35:44] <CIA-18> some object cache / slab improvements.
[23:35:44] <CIA-18>  - call the reclaimer callback when low on memory.
[23:35:44] <CIA-18>  - use the depot when on multi-cpu setups (for scalability).
[23:35:44] <CIA-18>  - fixed the amount of memory spent on slabs for very large objects.
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[23:38:47] <dr_evil> siarzhuk anything different?
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[23:40:51] <siarzhuk> dr_evil you need syslog now? the 20-seconds delay anyway required just after the system booted.
[23:41:06] <dr_evil> yes, syslog please
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[23:42:21] <siarzhuk> btw, do you need all those lines before first ps2_hid: init_hardware in syslog? usually I have purged them from the syslog
[23:42:36] <siarzhuk> to save space :-)
[23:42:58] <dr_evil> not with this problem. but you usually don't need to spend time on editing, just upload the raw thing
[23:45:25] <siarzhuk> dr_evil http://dev.haiku-os.org/attachment/ticket/1185/syslog.2
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[23:48:59] * ithamar pets Begasus ;)
[23:49:31] <kokito> ithamar
[23:50:07] <ithamar> hey kokito
[23:50:35] <ddew|bofh> o/
[23:50:54] * ddew|bofh seriously need to read up on driver development
[23:51:07] <ithamar> heh ddew|bofh, how so?
[23:51:13] <ddew|bofh> who'd imagined that the ISA-bus is different from the PCI-bus :P
[23:51:19] <ithamar> lol
[23:51:42] <dr_evil> siarzhuk do you have a external ps/2 mouse that you can attach?
[23:51:45] <ddew|bofh> tried to hack a ess1869 pci driver to work with my isa chip
[23:51:53] <ddew|bofh> with little success i might add :)
[23:52:03] <siarzhuk> dr_evil yes
[23:52:39] <dr_evil> does it start to work when you hotplug it?
[23:54:34] <siarzhuk> don'T tried. should I try?
[23:54:38] <Begasus> going down here
[23:54:41] <Begasus> g'night peeps
[23:55:04] <ithamar> more ps2 debugging it seems :( broken hw trouble... :P
[23:55:15] <Begasus> trusten ithamar ;)
[23:55:29] <Begasus> plop
[23:55:30] <ithamar> trustuh Begasus :)
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[23:55:57] <dr_evil> yes ithamar, i hate broken hardware
[23:56:10] <ithamar> and there's so much of it :( :( :(
[23:56:34] * siarzhuk remember all those quircks in usb_scsi :-( )
[23:56:45] <ithamar> lol me too siarzhuk :P
[23:57:06] <ithamar> well, usb in general...
[23:57:13] <dr_evil> http://dev.haiku-os.org/attachment/ticket/1185/syslog.2 have a look at "data 0xfe dropped"
[23:57:44] <dr_evil> thats because the keyboard controller somehow pretends that port 0 nack is coming from port 3, when in fact port 3 is a working mouse
[23:58:20] <ithamar> oh man oh man oh man....
[23:59:17] <siarzhuk> hm.... "mouse" is the inbound touchpad. it can be disabled in BIOS. may be we should try with disabled touchpad for informational purposes? ;-)
[23:59:20] <dr_evil> siarzhuk can you create two syslogs? one with mouse attached at boot, move it a bit, unplug it, and replug it
[23:59:40] <siarzhuk> and second?
[23:59:47] <dr_evil> and one with not attached at boot, just plug it in at runtime and move it

   April 28, 2007  
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