April 23, 2007 
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April 23, 2007 [00:00:00] <_hugo> i've also implemented his ideas for many cpus[00:00:05] <_hugo> so i also have per-cpu magazines[00:00:11] <_hugo> for smp scalability[00:00:19] <meianoite> well, that is of direct interest to me[00:00:38] <meianoite> can you give me an overview? I haven't read his paper or anything yet[00:00:52] <meianoite> just know the general design[00:01:28] <_hugo> meianoite: the idea is that instead of obtaining objects directly from the slab, or returning them directly, we keep per-cpu magazines with half-constructed objects.[00:01:41] <_hugo> so when we need a new object, if there is one in the local cpu magazine, we dont have to lock the slab[00:01:54] <meianoite> so it's a layered approach[00:02:11] <_hugo> and when returning objects we first return it to the magazine. when magazines get empty/full they are returned/obtained from the mag repot[00:02:12] <_hugo> yeah[00:02:12] <meianoite> ok... that shouldn't hurt[00:02:27] <_hugo> his performance tests show linear performance in memory allocation[00:02:28] <meianoite> I say go for it ;)[00:02:31] <_hugo> through cpu count[00:03:25] <meianoite> this generally means O(1) complexity... nothing to complain here :)[00:03:34] <meianoite> unless the overhead is grotesque in the first place[00:03:38] <meianoite> but I suspect it ain't[00:03:58] <_hugo> all operations are O(1) besides allocating a new slab or releasing one, or allocating a new magazine[00:03:59] * JonathanThompson wields a grammar stick at meianoite's general direction :P[00:04:18] <meianoite> SORRY, bit^H^H^H JonathanThompson[00:04:23] <DaaT> shhhh, he's doing his redneck impression :P[00:04:32] <DaaT> meianoite: do you have a sister?[00:04:34] * DaaT hides[00:04:42] <meianoite> only because I said "ain't"?![00:04:48] <DaaT> ONLY?[00:04:49] <JonathanThompson> You're right, DaaT, I shouldn't say anything about his redneck impression :)[00:04:49] <DaaT> tsk tsk[00:04:52] <DaaT> these kids[00:04:59] <meianoite> =P[00:05:06] <meianoite> that's the thing with formal education[00:05:12] <JonathanThompson> I think it was you a week or so ago whining about me using something you didn't consider proper grammar, meianoite :)[00:05:28] <Yez> ain't is in the dictionary now so I reckon you can use it[00:05:42] <JonathanThompson> It ain't explicitly disallowed :)[00:05:54] <JonathanThompson> Mind you, a lot of slang is in the dictionary.[00:05:55] <DaaT> it suuuuuure ain't[00:06:13] <DaaT> *chews tabacco*[00:06:14] * JonathanThompson imagines the queen using "ain't"[00:06:28] <meianoite> we tend to use elaborate constructs, but OTOH we still make the same mistakes of a 5 year old dyslexic kid[00:06:30] <DaaT> latifah?[00:07:18] <meianoite> JonathanThompson I believe I can't actually recognize grammar errors beyond the most glaring ones :)[00:07:27] <meianoite> so it probably wasn't me =P[00:07:34] <JonathanThompson> :)[00:08:07] <JonathanThompson> Of course, there are a lot of regional variations of what's considered "correct" for any heavily-used language.[00:08:17] *** apoth has joined #haiku[00:08:20] <apoth> w00.[00:08:37] <JonathanThompson> Most die out over time, while some become the general rule later on, except for more recent mutations.[00:08:56] <apoth> Hey Jon.[00:09:03] <apoth> How've you been?[00:09:04] <JonathanThompson> English of 200 years ago is different enough from what we use now that there's room for confusion when reading old stuff.[00:09:09] <JonathanThompson> Insane, apoth :)[00:09:18] <DaaT> not only english JonathanThompson *smack*[00:09:24] <JonathanThompson> I'm currently with my 3rd employer in about 7 months, due to reality being odd.[00:09:39] <JonathanThompson> Yes, DaaT, there's also variations in sheep-speak :P[00:09:46] <DaaT> sure, blame reality... *whistles*[00:09:53] <DaaT> yes, and sheep-l33t-speak[00:10:08] <meianoite> JonathanThompson that's actually YOUR fault that Gwen Stefani became so popular. that song of hers must have tainted my (otherwise near-immaculate) vocabulary =P[00:10:11] <_hugo> what i've got so far on the slab allocator: http://fivebits.net/~hugo/haiku/Slab.cpp[00:10:17] <apoth> Jon, hahah.. sweet.[00:10:28] * JonathanThompson suspects DaaT must be really into sheep in more ways than one to use sheep so prominently on iscomputeron.com[00:10:45] <apoth> Well... maybe not sweet, depending on the circumstance, but at least you have a job. Yeah?[00:10:50] <DaaT> nothing wrong with that, they're so cuddly[00:10:59] * meianoite is alergic to wool[00:11:01] <JonathanThompson> In the training/testing phase working under contract for a local Yahoo! office right now, apoth.[00:11:16] * DaaT weeps for meianoite[00:11:19] <DaaT> then again, more sheep for me[00:11:25] <apoth> Lovely.[00:11:26] <JonathanThompson> Working (sooner or later, if not now) with multi-petabyte databases and such.[00:11:29] <meianoite> syntetic ones are fine, though.[00:11:41] <meianoite> I missed a 'h' there.[00:11:48] <DaaT> pphhttt... that's not wool[00:12:00] <meianoite> steel wool usually works, too[00:12:06] <meianoite> for all your kitchen sink needs ;)[00:12:25] <DaaT> not cuddly, no thanks[00:12:25] <apoth> Oh by the way... I'm proud of everyone for making the summer of code. lol[00:12:33] <apoth> I guess google likes haiku now. :/[00:12:43] <meianoite> apoth weeeeee ;D[00:12:43] <JonathanThompson> Yeah, apoth, got laid off in September from the CAD company, had a period of job search, spent 3 months working at Coinstar under contract, and now Yahoo.[00:12:50] <DaaT> let's wait and see the results[00:13:08] <JonathanThompson> And I'm currently making an equivalent of over 50% more than I was making at the CAD company.[00:13:19] <JonathanThompson> So, it didn't go as planned, but it may work out much better long-term.[00:13:25] <meianoite> _hugo is making we (the other 7) look like slackers[00:13:26] <apoth> jon, sounds like a ride. Why'd you get laid off? Downsizing?[00:13:34] <umccullough> apoth, i don't think google DIDN'T like haiku before...[00:13:35] <DaaT> you don't need any help in that meianoite[00:13:36] <DaaT> :P[00:13:42] <meianoite> DaaT go hug a sheep.[00:13:49] <JonathanThompson> They haven't been able to convince enough people to buy their 3D CAD software to pay the bills :P[00:13:54] <DaaT> I don't need any help in that either :D[00:14:04] <JonathanThompson> They've laid off 4 more people since then, I heard.[00:14:08] * meianoite is grossed[00:14:14] <meianoite> eew, DaaT![00:14:14] <JonathanThompson> And it isn't a very large company to start with.[00:14:15] *** Azret has quit IRC[00:14:26] <DaaT> :P[00:14:30] <JonathanThompson> I started there January 05, and they were in the red at that time.[00:14:33] <apoth> umc, probably not, but yeah. I'm glad that there is going to be more paid help. I'm glad to see you're still aorund, man. (;[00:14:40] <umccullough> :)[00:14:45] <JonathanThompson> The parent company in Japan hasn't been doing well, either.[00:14:46] <umccullough> apoth, me leave? wtf?[00:15:14] *** stargater has quit IRC[00:15:18] <apoth> umc, I'm all wrapped up in two degree programs. I'd rather be learning C++, but reading Kant is pretty cool too. (:[00:15:32] <JonathanThompson> So, I've thus far had a track record of getting signed up with companies that have financial troubles that lead me to needing to move... I hope Yahoo! doesn't do the same thing :([00:15:51] <meianoite> besides, the only GSoC guys who are actively mixing in into the community are _hugo, emitrax_ and yours truly[00:15:55] *** stargater has joined #haiku[00:15:56] <JonathanThompson> The longest I've ever been at a company was slightly over 4 years.[00:16:04] <umccullough> apoth, nice to see you back also :)[00:16:05] <apoth> jon, That's insane! I guess they're going under quick. Better that you were able to get off the boat quickly before it sank.[00:16:22] <apoth> umc, thanks. (: Hopefully I can stick around this time.[00:16:26] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[00:16:33] <JonathanThompson> So, I'm looking for stability, but I am not convinced I'll ever find that, really.[00:16:34] <meianoite> and I still get all the beating =P[00:16:37] <apoth> Speaking of, it's vmware time. Time to get back to work. (:[00:16:42] * JonathanThompson beats meianoite for fun[00:16:50] <apoth> Jon, It's too rough out there for stability.[00:17:07] <JonathanThompson> Though I'm in the Microsoft Land area, so that may help.[00:17:10] * meianoite kicks JonathanThompson in the crotch[00:17:19] <meianoite> TRICE.[00:17:26] <apoth> Redmond?[00:17:31] * JonathanThompson eels over after administering a rebuttal trout slap on meianoite[00:17:39] <JonathanThompson> Mercer Island, but that's only a few miles away.[00:17:45] <meianoite> (missed an 'h' once more)[00:17:46] <apoth> Time for some pyrotechnics in Redmond.[00:17:52] <JonathanThompson> Amazon.com is here, Google in Kirkland, expedia.com...[00:18:12] <JonathanThompson> I interviewed with Amazon.com in November.[00:18:28] * DaaT suspects meianoite doesn't like the letter h[00:18:32] <JonathanThompson> I didn't have the database experience they needed atm, so they didn't hire me, but otherwise wanted me.[00:18:44] <apoth> umc, so what's the status. Any more work done on documentation?[00:19:12] <JonathanThompson> whom are you asking, apoth?[00:19:18] <meianoite> JonatanTompson, I ate te letter ''[00:19:31] <meianoite> (3 puns intended)[00:19:33] * JonathanThompson notes meianoite isn't taking advantage of tab-completion[00:19:58] <umccullough> meianoite, you see the linux scheduler article on /.?[00:20:02] * meianoite notices how JonathanThompson's pun-o-meter AIN'T working really well[00:20:03] <Yez> apoth is not JonathanThompson, not meianoite[00:20:19] * JonathanThompson has other things on and in his mind, besides a few grubs[00:20:44] * DaaT suspects JonathanThompson only has air on his mind[00:20:45] <meianoite> umccullough actually, no. the last thing I read regarding Linux's scheduler is how people seem to rewrite it every odd year :)[00:20:51] <umccullough> http://kerneltrap.org/node/8059[00:20:58] *** jevin has quit IRC[00:21:03] <[Beta]> meianoite, all for fun too![00:21:06] <meianoite> and it's 2007, so... it might that time hehe ;)[00:21:21] * JonathanThompson knows DaaT always has a sheepish look on his face from the most recent close-encounters-with-the-sheep-kind :)[00:21:32] * apoth dances.[00:21:34] <DaaT> *sheepish look*[00:22:02] * JonathanThompson has ternary search trees on his mind[00:22:07] <meianoite> grossed. yet. once. more.[00:22:17] * JonathanThompson also has reheating pizza on his mind, buzzer going off now...[00:22:31] <DaaT> mmmmmmmmmmm... pizza..[00:22:47] <DaaT> stop acting meianoite, I know you're enjoying this[00:23:22] * JonathanThompson dives into a sea of toppings, bereft of any anchovies[00:23:24] <meianoite> the fact that you are having wet dreams about sheep?[00:23:32] <meianoite> yeah, I'm DEFINITELY enjoying that[00:23:35] <JonathanThompson> Who said anything about him having wet dreams? :)[00:23:42] <JonathanThompson> They're not dreams :P[00:23:49] <meianoite> I'm trying to be subtle about that[00:24:00] <JonathanThompson> It's wasted on DaaT :P[00:24:00] <DaaT> but they sure are wet[00:24:01] <meianoite> there might be kids reading this channel[00:24:05] <DaaT> :D[00:24:28] <DaaT> kids shouldn't be on chat rooms anyway... bad people *points at JonathanThompson* are always around[00:24:30] <meianoite> there's no way in hell wet sheep smell good[00:24:40] *** SiCuTDeUx has quit IRC[00:24:46] <meianoite> now I missed an 's'[00:24:46] <umccullough> meianoite, i concur[00:24:49] <DaaT> subjective meianoite, quite subjective[00:25:36] <_hugo> i wonder how you go smelling wet sheep[00:25:53] <DaaT> don't wonder...[00:26:00] <DaaT> you DON'T want to know[00:26:03] <DaaT> or do you....[00:26:17] <meianoite> I'm betting on "from behind"[00:26:35] <DaaT> it varies[00:26:36] <_hugo> i've probably been near sheep two or three times in my life[00:26:41] <DaaT> :D[00:26:56] <_hugo> i prefer the city's electricity[00:27:03] <meianoite> DaaT, Sheepa Sutra?[00:27:04] *** SiCuTDeUx has joined #haiku[00:27:07] <DaaT> quite[00:27:14] <meianoite> best-seller material.[00:27:21] <DaaT> the country side is very nice as well _hugo[00:27:37] <_hugo> DaaT: i like our cities (besides Porto and Lisboa and Coimbra)[00:27:55] *** FinnB has joined #haiku[00:27:57][00:28:06] <_hugo> sou da Figueira da Foz mas vivo em Aveiro[00:28:32] <DaaT> ah fixe, gosto de aveiro[00:28:40] <_hugo> same :-)[00:28:58] <DaaT> :)[00:29:32][00:29:54] <_hugo> e' relativamente perto[00:30:12] <meianoite> umccullough I'll kick the hell out of the next guy who says I over-engineer things[00:30:18] <DaaT> sim[00:30:24] <geist> boy, not a lot of changes this weekend[00:30:25] <_hugo> meianoite: you over-engineer things[00:30:28] <geist> what's wrong with everyone?[00:30:33] <_hugo> geist: fix berlios![00:30:34] <meianoite> first Gustavo Grieco asking me about in-kernel GA tuning[00:30:36] <geist> the project is dead!![00:30:38] <DaaT> so meianoite, I heard you tend to over-engineer stuff?[00:30:44] * geist slashdots it[00:30:49] <meianoite> not this guy ACTUALLY using RB-Trees as scheduling data structure[00:30:57] <meianoite> *now[00:31:11] <meianoite> (even though "this guy" actually happens to be Ingo Molnar)[00:31:58] <meianoite> they should re-christen Linux "Quicksand(TM)"[00:32:28] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite: hia[00:32:30] * meianoite kicks the hell out of both _hugo and DaaT[00:32:31] <SiCuTDeUx> *hi[00:32:37] * DaaT enjoys it[00:32:53] * meianoite kidnaps DaaT's sheep (all of them)[00:33:11] <DaaT> you couldn't POSSIBLY kidnap them all[00:33:33] <meianoite> I have a big... sack.[00:33:39] <meianoite> and a handful of trucks[00:33:51] *** noph has quit IRC[00:33:52] <DaaT> still[00:34:28] <meianoite> ok, I'll just shoot down the excess of sheep.[00:34:47] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: you'll piss of eugenia[00:34:50] <Thom_Holwerda> and trust me[00:34:54] <Thom_Holwerda> thats something you dont want.[00:35:25] <geist> heh[00:35:26] <meianoite> Thom_Holwerda I couldn't care less about eugenia. she's pissed me off *so* *many* *times* *before* I might just go and do that on purpose =P[00:35:29] * DaaT seconds Thom_Holwerda[00:35:46] <_hugo> meianoite: pissed on you?[00:35:47] <geist> wha wha, whos gonna piss off eugenia?[00:36:04] <DaaT> _hugo: stop dreaming of golden showers[00:36:06] *** magnetron has quit IRC[00:36:18] * _hugo wanders off in a dream[00:36:43] <meianoite> ./topic #haiku Sick fetichist talk tonight![00:37:07] <DaaT> sick? nothing sick about it[00:37:12] <DaaT> well, golden showers are sick[00:37:16] <DaaT> but not SHEEP!![00:37:23] <Grackle> hmm, why did this window just hilight?[00:37:28] <DaaT> sheep are cute and cuddly[00:37:37] <SiCuTDeUx> OMG DaaT golden showers?[00:37:41] * meianoite pets Worms. hhm, sheep bomb...[00:37:46] <DaaT> SiCuTDeUx: those are sick, yes[00:37:53] <Grackle> Golden showers, happy hours, on a cruise to freak you out[00:37:58] <SiCuTDeUx> EWWW[00:38:07] * geist gives up trying to understand what's going on here[00:38:13] * SiCuTDeUx thinks that ew sond geish[00:38:18] <SiCuTDeUx> *gayish[00:38:19] *** wildur has quit IRC[00:38:26] <Yez> Grackle because you are using Windows XP and this window did not have focus when somethign was added to it[00:38:56] <Grackle> I was jokingly implying that I have a hilight set for "sick fetishist" or something[00:39:05] <Thom_Holwerda> Grackle: that was Garbage[00:39:08] <DaaT> don't worry Grackle, I got it :)[00:39:09] <Yez> that too[00:39:14] <Grackle> Yes Thom_Holwerda[00:39:17] <Thom_Holwerda> when i grow up[00:39:20] <Grackle> yeah[00:39:23] <Grackle> good song[00:39:24] <Thom_Holwerda> song #3 on Version 2.0[00:39:27] <Yez> in that case, it should be ringing off the hook about now[00:39:34] <Grackle> haha very thorough of you[00:39:40] <meianoite> so Grackle you like Garbage?[00:39:41] <Thom_Holwerda> fan :)[00:39:44] <meianoite> DAMN YOU Thom_Holwerda![00:39:52] <meianoite> beat me to it =P[00:39:56] <Grackle> I'm not a huge fan of Garbage, but I do like them.[00:40:19] * meianoite would take a bullet to save Shirley's life[00:40:27] <Grackle> hehe[00:40:30] <_hugo> i'm a huge fan, 25 feet tall[00:40:35] <Grackle> hah :P[00:40:41] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: no, i wouldnt take a bullet for shirley[00:40:43] <DaaT> Garbage were good (are?)[00:40:46] <DaaT> saw them live once[00:40:53] <Thom_Holwerda> id only take bullets for Fiona Apple[00:40:58] <DaaT> fiona's good too[00:41:15] <Thom_Holwerda> best singer/songwriter ever, for me[00:41:16] <Thom_Holwerda> and a lovable character too[00:41:19] <Thom_Holwerda> she's really sweet[00:41:20] <DaaT> nothing tops Bjork though[00:41:25] <Thom_Holwerda> bjork is nice too[00:41:31] <DaaT> nice? AH![00:41:33] <DaaT> peasant!![00:41:34] <DaaT> :P[00:41:35] <meianoite> DaaT, *nod*[00:41:38] * Grackle looks at his last.fm charts for the month where he went on a Garbage binge[00:42:10] <DaaT> tori's very good too[00:42:20] <DaaT> ani as well[00:42:36] <meianoite> Thom_Holwerda I'd gladly take a bullet for Shirley... provided she expresses her gratitude in the form of several week-long sexual favours.[00:42:44] * meianoite sighs[00:42:45] <DaaT> meianoite: maybe, but you'd be dead by then, so doesn't matter[00:42:48] <meianoite> ay, redheads.[00:43:39] * DaaT prefers brunettes (like his gf), then redheads[00:43:39] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: euh i dot think she's into necrophilism[00:43:39] * meianoite proudly shows DaaT his Kevlar body armor[00:43:46] <DaaT> sure sure meianoite, you wish[00:44:00] <Grackle> http://www.last.fm/user/Grackle/charts/?charttype=weekly&subtype=artist&range=106 ah, here[00:44:11] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: does that proect your head?[00:44:12] * meianoite shows Thom_Holwerda his Kevlar body armor, just as proud[00:44:12] <Grackle> er wait[00:44:15] <Grackle> that's certainly not it[00:44:18] <Grackle> 21, 72?[00:44:35] <Grackle> why are these numbers so low? :/[00:44:46] * Grackle grumbles about last.fm[00:44:49] <meianoite> Thom_Holwerda I suspect that the shooter won't aim for MY head =P[00:44:59] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: good point[00:45:12] <DaaT> sure, why waste a bullet[00:45:30] <meianoite> DaaT: drop dead, will you? :)[00:45:49] * DaaT proudly shows meianoite his stolen kevlar body armor[00:45:50] <DaaT> :D[00:45:55] <meianoite> just dry yourself out from excess of sheep lovin'[00:46:08] <DaaT> nah, I like the wet feeling[00:46:09] <meianoite> *of[00:46:25] * meianoite suspects DaaT would eventually become anemic[00:47:49] * meianoite lures DaaT into a tarpit by imitating those distinctive, sexy, welcoming "baaah" noises[00:48:15] <DaaT> like you could imitate them[00:48:16] <DaaT> silly boy[00:48:40] <meianoite> ok... tape recorders are always an option[00:49:03] <meianoite> maybe 192-bit DAT[00:49:06] <meianoite> ;D[00:49:11] <meianoite> and Thom_Holwerda's stereo setup[00:49:33] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: my what?[00:49:42] <meianoite> hifi system?[00:49:54] <Thom_Holwerda> yes, but what do you know about my setup?[00:50:13] <meianoite> well, if you're THAT picky about Minidiscs...[00:50:21] <Thom_Holwerda> ah[00:50:34] <meianoite> you've gotta have some decent audio system :)[00:50:47] <Thom_Holwerda> i never realise the fact that peple actually *read* osnews[00:50:49] <Thom_Holwerda> or wors eyet[00:50:51] <Thom_Holwerda> my blog[00:50:55] <meianoite> BTW, ATRAC sucks.[00:50:58] <meianoite> nah, I never read your blog.[00:51:09] <Thom_Holwerda> ok, keep it that way[00:51:14] <meianoite> but you just can't help yourself every time there's some iPod-related news ;)[00:51:16] <DaaT> you have a blog?[00:51:17] <DaaT> :P[00:52:02] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: thats why osnews generally doesnt do ipod news :)[00:52:11] <meianoite> I always suspected that ;)[00:52:20] * DaaT is currently looking for a new dap[00:52:28] <Thom_Holwerda> heh no its beyond our scope, thats why[00:52:35] <Thom_Holwerda> and of course, the ipod is just a music player[00:52:38] <Thom_Holwerda> nothing more[00:52:39] *** SiCuTDeUx has quit IRC[00:52:40] <Thom_Holwerda> and to me[00:52:43] <Thom_Holwerda> a lot less[00:52:45] <Thom_Holwerda> ;)[00:52:50] <DaaT> i don't like ipods[00:52:57] <Thom_Holwerda> neither do i[00:53:12] <meianoite> I can concede Apple's MP3 encoder is just terrible... but please. the hardware audio quality is great. if you encode your tracks with LAME the quality is superb[00:53:12] <DaaT> i've had a zen micro 5gb and after an cowon x5 (awesome sound quality)[00:53:29] <Thom_Holwerda> i prefer ATRAC's warmth[00:53:35] <Thom_Holwerda> mp3 generally sounds canned[00:53:36] *** SiCuTDeUx has joined #haiku[00:53:43] <Thom_Holwerda> atrac has more warmth[00:54:27] *** Minbari has joined #haiku[00:55:00] <meianoite> and by "warmth" you actually mean "the ridiculous amount of artifact ATRAC believes it can produce and get away with"[00:55:17] *** FinnB has quit IRC[00:55:20] <meianoite> ATRAC is only better than TwinVQ =P[00:55:21] <Thom_Holwerda> i actually dont[00:55:29] <Thom_Holwerda> but lets not go there[00:55:30] <meianoite> (in this regard)[00:55:38] <Thom_Holwerda> its tie for bed anyways over hee :)[00:55:41] <Thom_Holwerda> here*[00:55:43] * DaaT separates Thom_Holwerda and meianoite before it gets ugly[00:55:44] <Thom_Holwerda> time*[00:55:56] <Thom_Holwerda> ttyl, all[00:56:03] <DaaT> see you[00:56:05] <meianoite> Thom_Holwerda try a LAME build that supports -athonly, sometime[00:56:08] <meianoite> *and* a high bitrate[00:56:18] <geist> lossless![00:56:19] <meianoite> then just tell me :)[00:56:20] *** Thom_Holwerda has quit IRC[00:56:23] <DaaT> shn!!![00:56:28] <DaaT> flac![00:56:35] <meianoite> ape ;)[00:56:45] <meianoite> .ape is the *best* file extension ever[00:56:48] <DaaT> no need for name calling[00:56:49] <geist> yeah, i use the apple one lately, but it's all the same[00:58:19] *** Minbari has quit IRC[01:00:08] <meianoite> they're all the same as far as lossless go, but, regarding lossy, a LAME-encoded MP3 with the -athonly flag sounds just perfect[01:00:15] *** jevin has joined #haiku[01:00:21] <DaaT> what does it do?[01:01:22] <meianoite> disables the psychoacoustic models and uses only ATH to choose frequencies to eliminate[01:01:55] <geist> psychokiller![01:02:05] <meianoite> ah, that lovely thread :)[01:02:06] <DaaT> qu'est que c'est![01:02:10] <DaaT> pah pah pah pah pah[01:02:13] <DaaT> pah pah pah pah pah[01:02:26] <meianoite> Louise Attaque?[01:02:32] * DaaT slaps meianoite[01:02:35] <DaaT> talking heads[01:02:43] <meianoite> o_O[01:03:38] <meianoite> I blame it on your mediocre onomatopoeic skills, DaaT[01:03:59] <DaaT> not on your lacking musical knowledge? amazing[01:04:15] <meianoite> oh, please. "pah pah pah pah pah"?![01:04:37] <DaaT> for a connaiseur (sp?) it would be enough[01:05:11] <meianoite> I'm not that much into 80's pop[01:05:41] <DaaT> i know i know, you weren't even born[01:05:55] *** whoopsbob has joined #haiku[01:05:56] <meianoite> actually, I *was*[01:06:01] <DaaT> :P[01:06:09] *** bobwhoops has quit IRC[01:06:14] <meianoite> but only became really interested in music by circa 92, 93[01:06:24] <DaaT> let me guess, Nirvana?[01:06:31] <meianoite> before that I only listened to whatever was on the radio, and my dad's records[01:06:33] <meianoite> hell no =P[01:06:40] <DaaT> :D[01:08:16] <DaaT> ah transvision vamp, they were great[01:08:40] <meianoite> you'd be surprised by how old-school my musical tastes are[01:08:53] * DeadYak pets Pink Floyd[01:08:56] * DaaT loves music from the 60's[01:09:53] <meianoite> music.... riiiiiiiight. silly me to believe kokito was the one who enjoyed licking frogs.[01:10:06] * DaaT pets White Rabbit[01:10:11] <DaaT> :P[01:15:01] *** ChrisHJW has quit IRC[01:16:08] <meianoite> DaaT just so you know, it was actually Smashing Pumpkins, Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails who got me into music[01:16:13] <meianoite> not those nirvana fluffs =P[01:16:25] * umccullough liked NiN back then :)[01:16:35] <DaaT> pumpkins are ok, the others... bleh[01:16:38] <meianoite> umccullough checked the new record? awesome.[01:16:51] <umccullough> meianoite, most of my tastes have changed ;)[01:17:01] <meianoite> I can see that :)[01:17:19] <meianoite> but just check the record sometime. it resembles PHM a *lot*[01:17:34] <umccullough> meianoite, hmm.. maybe i will then :D[01:17:53] <umccullough> i think i have most of the other albums in my 'collection' anyway...so it wouldn't hurt to add it[01:18:11] <meianoite> and Trent finally snapped out of the "I'm a piece of crap" stuff. this record is 100% political[01:18:31] <meianoite> very opinionated[01:18:39] <meianoite> and *very* targeted[01:19:03] <meianoite> not to mention the ARG that backs it ;)[01:19:06] <DaaT> finally. It only took him what, 20 years?[01:19:20] <meianoite> 18, DaaT[01:19:27] <DaaT> ah, not slow then[01:19:52] <meianoite> he was on the verge of snapping out of it by Fragile[01:20:07] <meianoite> but he somehow slipped on With Teeth[01:20:10] <DaaT> what happened? sales went up so he decided to stick with it?[01:20:18] <meianoite> now he DEFINITELY snapped out[01:20:28] <meianoite> I guess it was the booze[01:20:43] <meianoite> and the sheer magnitude of Fragile[01:20:46] <DaaT> so not a self-created image?[01:21:06] *** jevin has quit IRC[01:21:08] <meianoite> maybe his self-image from the time he was 18[01:21:20] <meianoite> but he's 41 now, for chrissake.[01:21:25] <meianoite> it's about time to snap out =P[01:21:32] <DaaT> exactly, time he moved on no?[01:21:35] <DaaT> even before[01:21:41] <DaaT> artists... pphhttt[01:21:56] <meianoite> that's one of the reasons why I'm anticipating the Pumpkins album quite a lot[01:22:08] <DaaT> not me[01:22:24] <DaaT> iah isn't in the band, nor is d'arcy (so it seems)[01:22:49] <DaaT> so it won't be a pumpkins album[01:22:50] <meianoite> those Chemical Romance guys deserve to be hang and shot[01:22:50] <meianoite> and they say they're "inspired" by SP =P[01:22:59] <DaaT> don't know them[01:23:11] <meianoite> well, D'arcy always sucked, skill-wise[01:23:22] <meianoite> Iha... yeah. he'll be missed[01:23:36] <meianoite> but there's Jimmy[01:23:42] <DaaT> it'll be corgan and the drummer, that's it[01:23:44] <meianoite> and there's Billy[01:23:47] <meianoite> so it can't be that bad[01:24:13] <DaaT> well, when they go on tour, I hope it's better than the gig I saw a few years ago, their "last" here in portugal[01:24:14] <meianoite> well, we'll see. the record is out in a couple months[01:24:42] <meianoite> 98?[01:24:55] <DaaT> 2000 or 2001[01:25:08] <meianoite> hm[01:25:15] <meianoite> with Melissa, then[01:25:42] <meianoite> they were pretty much in flux by then[01:25:50] <meianoite> lots of weird stuff going on[01:25:51] <DaaT> crappy show[01:25:54] <meianoite> but I still love them :)[01:26:01] <DaaT> big disappointment[01:26:46] <meianoite> Machina in general was pretty sub-par[01:26:55] <meianoite> Machina 2 rocked, though :)[01:27:24] <DaaT> actually, i don't have any of their albums :)[01:27:34] <DaaT> same with U2. Great band, just never bought any[01:28:33] <meianoite> now, THAT was a disappointment[01:28:49] <meianoite> their show last year[01:28:52] <meianoite> in Brazil[01:28:53] <DaaT> haven't really followed their latest stuff[01:29:07] <DaaT> didn't see them when they came here, only in 97 (or 98)[01:29:16] <meianoite> I realised I actually *dislike* U2.[01:29:21] <DaaT> eh[01:29:38] <meianoite> there's a handful of songs that "work"[01:29:45] <meianoite> maybe a couple handfuls[01:29:56] <DaaT> one band that's been going downhill, for me, is REM. For quite sometime now, after "new adventures in hi-fi"[01:30:57] <meianoite> lately (as in... for the last decade =P) Bono's general attitude is completely irritating =P[01:31:07] <DaaT> which is? :)[01:31:26] <meianoite> DaaT it's been like that ever since Mike got out of the closet ;)[01:31:33] <DaaT> :)[01:34:34] *** TTRanger has joined #haiku[01:35:26] *** pikapika has quit IRC[01:36:18] <umccullough> W T F is wrong with this damn machine today?[01:39:33] *** umccullough has quit IRC[01:40:03] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[01:40:41] <umccullough> ever since the most recent "plague" of updates from microsoft, this machine's stability has been horrible[01:40:54] <umccullough> definitely time to switch now...[01:45:16] <meianoite> umccullough I know a couple tricks that should make your (next) Windows install not crap itself silly[01:45:29] <meianoite> but I'm wary of sharing the knowledge =P[01:45:49] <meianoite> the world would become a better place if people simply abandoned MS[01:47:13] <meianoite> anyway, it involves registering a certain little known shareware utility[01:47:25] <umccullough> meianoite, i know XP in and out ;) it's just that all of a sudden this machine has been hanging and dying a miserable death[01:47:29] <meianoite> so, if you've got $25 to fork...[01:47:53] <umccullough> it appears to happen when i try to copy large amounts of files to my external HD[01:48:04] <umccullough> but i've never had a problem until recently[01:48:05] <meianoite> umccullough we both do. and we both know hot it loves blowing its legs every now and then[01:48:51] <umccullough> meianoite, i also tax my machines pretty hard - i wouldn't be surprised if i'm nearing a hardware failure of some sort :/[01:49:05] <umccullough> considering my boxes run at 100% cpu 24x7[01:49:47] <meianoite> SETI? ;)[01:49:52] <umccullough> something like that...[01:50:07] <umccullough> i run any number of projects - Team Haiku participates in ~50 of them[01:50:34] <umccullough> SETI doesn't interest me actually, so i don't run that one[01:51:06] <meianoite> hey. those ETs do deserve some of your cycles, don't they?![01:51:07] <meianoite> ;)[01:51:13] <umccullough> nah... :D[01:51:32] <umccullough> SETI is probably the single largest DC project out there... so they're getting plenty of attention ;)[01:52:08] <umccullough> mostly this AMD box has been sieving factors for primality testing[01:52:17] <umccullough> SoB/PSP/Riesel[01:52:49] <umccullough> but anyway...off topic for this channel - we try to keep DC project talk in #teamhaiku ;)[01:53:39] <umccullough> seriously though - my issues seem to coincide with the recent microsoft updates[01:54:04] <umccullough> i remember the ani cursor update caused my realtek audio software to crash on boot...[01:54:20] <DaaT> yay for windows update[01:54:47] <umccullough> i remember reading a microsoft note that "the problem is not widespread" -- yeah right[01:55:01] <umccullough> next set of updates "fixed" that problem immediately[01:59:40] <meianoite> just a sec[01:59:46] <meianoite> testing a little thingy[01:59:48] *** meianoite has quit IRC[02:00:49] *** meianoite has joined #haiku[02:00:54] <meianoite> n i c e .[02:04:24] *** jevin has joined #haiku[02:07:29] *** JamesB192 has joined #haiku[02:12:26] *** jevin has quit IRC[02:27:36] *** _hugo has quit IRC[02:28:03] *** _hugo has joined #haiku[02:33:48] <umccullough> ah, only 25gb left to copy :)[02:38:11] <SiCuTDeUx> vista sux, way to slow[02:40:27] <umccullough> i haven't even bothered to try it yet[02:43:23] <JamesB192> Data on the internet is likenable to water in plumbing, it goes from the mighty aquaduct (that is the backbone) to 3/4 inch pipe for the ISP, and finally to a leaky faucet for the consumer.[02:44:11] * umccullough detects conversation about tubes[02:44:58] * JonathanThompson notes that umccullough lives in the state where things once were described as "Totally Tubular, man!"[02:45:15] <umccullough> at least i don't live in alaska ;)[02:45:48] <JonathanThompson> That'd be poloar unbearable :)[02:45:52] <JonathanThompson> Polar[02:46:59] <umccullough> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_of_tubes[02:49:06] * JonathanThompson wasn't aware BeIDE had a "Delete to End of File" key binding, talk about dangerous![02:49:41] <umccullough> heh... TBH, i can't stand most of the BeIDE key shortcuts[02:49:54] <umccullough> the navigation is so arse-backwards from windows it's painful[02:50:04] <JonathanThompson> I wonder at times what was being thought when they were chosen: good thing they can be changed.[02:50:32] <umccullough> well, for example, shouldn't the PGUP/PGDN actually move the cursor instead of just scrolling the page?[02:50:35] <umccullough> maybe it's just me...[02:51:58] <JonathanThompson> Just because you start scrolling through the text, find something you think is relevant, you have this idea that when you next type, it should be what you're now viewing, and not having it ripped out from under you back to where you started? :)[02:52:35] <umccullough> yeah, completely throws me off having developed in windows forever...[02:53:17] <umccullough> and when i hit home or end - i expect it to go to the beginning or end of a line actually[02:53:29] <umccullough> ctrl-home/ctrl-end usually go beginning/end of file[02:53:48] <umccullough> but it doesn't matter because still - when i start typing, it hasn't moved the cursor :P[02:54:17] <umccullough> i don't complain about it much - because i recognize that it's a different OS/IDE - but it really does get to me[02:54:35] <JonathanThompson> Well, regardless, I'll allow redefinitions as much as possible, because people think in different ways.[02:54:49] <umccullough> forcing myself to use ALT instead of CTL is painful enough ;) (and yes, i know it can be changed - but i figure i should just learn it)[02:55:56] <umccullough> and don't bother explaining to me that it's holdover from the Mac keyboard shortcuts... i understand all that ;)[02:57:49] * umccullough needs to learn vi and/or emacs[02:58:18] * JonathanThompson wishes BeIDE had block text editing commands ala Brief[02:58:42] <umccullough> yeah, that's another thing[02:58:54] <umccullough> ... does it at least support block indent?[02:58:57] <Yez> wow, wouldn't it be nice if we had a cool new IDE for Haiku that was solid?[02:58:58] <umccullough> i never tried...[02:59:11] * JonathanThompson notes Yez's statement :)[02:59:12] <umccullough> block comments are awfully handy[02:59:20] <Yez> ;-)[02:59:36] <umccullough> ok, off to install ubuntu...bye for now![02:59:43] <JonathanThompson> I was definitely working on the code in the wee hours of the morning, Yez.[02:59:50] *** umccullough has quit IRC[02:59:51] <Yez> cool[03:00:18] <JonathanThompson> The syntax highlighting and the lexer will be tied together quite tightly.[03:00:52] <JonathanThompson> And those will be tightly tied to auto-completion as well.[03:01:08] <Yez> that would be GREAT to see or work with![03:01:23] <BryanV> Yez?[03:01:44] <Yez> BryanV?[03:12:51] *** Nies has joined #haiku[03:16:06] *** apoth has quit IRC[03:26:22] *** M199 has joined #haiku[03:34:17] *** Master199 has quit IRC[03:34:18] *** M199 is now known as Master199[03:34:30] *** DaaT has quit IRC[03:47:37] *** _hugo has quit IRC[03:54:15] *** MikeW has quit IRC[03:56:47] *** _hugo has joined #haiku[04:07:18] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[04:07:27] <umccullough> crap, why is the video so damn slow in ubuntu?[04:09:33] <umccullough> i have to hope irssi is better than xchat-gnome...[04:14:47] *** umccullough_ has joined #haiku[04:16:13] *** umccullough_ has quit IRC[04:20:36] <Grackle> umccullough, what video card?[04:21:44] <Grackle> Check to see that you're using the proper driver. It might have defaulted to vesa, which is slow.[04:22:33] *** ablyss has joined #haiku[04:22:53] <DeadYak> Grackle: appears to be using generic... happen to know why it'd fail to auto-detect that?[04:23:40] <Grackle> Not really. It could be that ubuntu doesn't install it by default because it's not free.[04:23:54] <Grackle> In which case you need to enable universe/multiverse repositories and install it.[04:23:55] <DeadYak> I thought Ubuntu was known for ignoring that philosophy in various cases[04:24:26] <Grackle> They don't ignore it, but they provide facilities to easily get around it.[04:24:41] <Grackle> linux-restricted-modules, multiverse and universe repositories, etc[04:24:47] <DeadYak> well, I thought there was a stink about them including a bunch of non-free codecs and things like that[04:25:18] <Grackle> Oh, well a lot of distros include stuff like mp3 support, which they are technically not allowed to do.[04:25:42] <Grackle> Ubuntu has to have that enabled post-installation, but I think it's still technically not allowed.[04:26:00] <Grackle> I don't know much about all that, really.[04:26:18] <umccullough> sorry...not used to xchat[04:26:37] <umccullough> yeah, it's a geforce 6100, apparently the drivers aren't installed by default[04:26:42] <Grackle> ah[04:27:20] <Grackle> Well you can either enable the aformentioned repos and install nvidia stuff, or just install build-essential and kernel-headers-`uname -r`, and install the latest package from nvidia.[04:27:23] <Grackle> I reccomend the latter.[04:27:33] <umccullough> i'm installing the packages now...will take a while[04:27:35] <_hugo> i recommend the former[04:27:42] * DeadYak pets _hugo[04:28:04] <Grackle> Either way gets you there.[04:28:24] <umccullough> the former is a LOT easier at this point ;)[04:28:33] <_hugo> and the probability of working is greater[04:28:44] <umccullough> it's bad enough that's it's 22mb worth of downloads :P[04:29:34] <Grackle> Actually _hugo, I have found nvidia's installer to work flawlessly on every computer I have used it on. I won't argue that it's easier though, as it certainly isn't.[04:29:40] <_hugo> umccullough: how much bandwidth do you have umccullough?[04:29:45] <Grackle> every ubuntu machine, I should say[04:29:46] <umccullough> 144kbps[04:29:52] <_hugo> umccullough: download?[04:29:57] <umccullough> both[04:29:59] <umccullough> up/down[04:30:15] <_hugo> Grackle: the drivers included in the distribution were tested with the included kernel, its a safer bet[04:30:19] <_hugo> umccullough: that sucks[04:30:20] <umccullough> IDSL is synchronous ;)[04:30:35] <_hugo> i have 16mbit/s down and it isn't very expensive[04:30:36] <umccullough> _hugo: no doubt... it does indeed - and I pay $120 USD/mo for it[04:30:38] <DeadYak> ouch, nothing better than IDSL out there?[04:30:51] <DeadYak> this is why the US is like #15 in the world for broadband[04:31:02] <umccullough> DeadYak: not really - unless i want satellite[04:31:03] <umccullough> or a T1[04:31:15] <_hugo> 120 USD for 144kbps? what a ripoff[04:31:16] <Grackle> _hugo: The nvidia package they provide just invokes nvidia's installer anyway, so it's not much different. You're right though, it's tested and proven.[04:31:24] <umccullough> i live pretty rural - 7 miles from the CO[04:31:33] <_hugo> ah[04:31:40] <_hugo> that explains it[04:31:45] <umccullough> if i was closer to town it would be $14 USD for 1.5mbit ADSL[04:32:01] <umccullough> well, < $20 anyway[04:32:06] <_hugo> i pay around $60 for 16mbit[04:32:37] <_hugo> only 512kbps upload though[04:33:11] <_hugo> well, its a bit more than $60, but not much[04:33:28] * _hugo keeps forgetting the dollar doesn't worth much now[04:33:29] <_hugo> :-P[04:34:12] <umccullough> there are days when i seriously considering ~$300+/mo for a fractional T1[04:34:28] <_hugo> umccullough: just move to the city :-P[04:34:53] <umccullough> _hugo: houses are expensive here ;)[04:35:07] <DeadYak> welcome to California real estate[04:35:10] <umccullough> mine is already worth 3 times what I paid for it 7 years ago[04:35:15] <_hugo> umccullough: so paying $300 per month would compensate?[04:35:19] <DeadYak> you'd kill me if I told you what houses go for on this side of the country[04:35:27] <DeadYak> _hugo: in california, easily[04:35:43] <JonathanThompson> A lot of the US housing market is falling, but not everywhere.[04:35:45] <_hugo> at least its sunny[04:35:46] <_hugo> eheh[04:35:47] <umccullough> DeadYak: i already know - my wife wants to buy something in indiana[04:35:49] <JonathanThompson> They aren't falling around here, for example.[04:35:58] * umccullough looks outside as it's pouring buckets[04:36:06] <JonathanThompson> Sure, you could buy something in Indiana, but where will you work? :)[04:36:07] <_hugo> ugh, raining?[04:36:08] <umccullough> actually the rain dried up this evening[04:36:14] <DeadYak> I love rain[04:36:23] <_hugo> rain is nice when we can stay at home, eheh[04:36:26] * JonathanThompson suggests DeadYak move to this area :P[04:36:28] * _hugo walks[04:36:50] <JonathanThompson> Or far better yet: the Olympic Peninsula, where it is a temperate rain forest :)[04:36:59] <JonathanThompson> (It only gets about 32 inches of rain/year here)[04:38:19] <umccullough> JonathanThompson: the work situation was my point too ;)[04:38:20] *** Nies_ has joined #haiku[04:38:52] <JonathanThompson> After all, it wasn't like I *REALLY* wanted to go through the pain and effort of moving across the continent with everything I own.[04:39:08] <umccullough> oh yeah, you used to live out that way :D[04:39:23] <JonathanThompson> I used to live just around the block from where BryanV is now :)[04:39:39] <JonathanThompson> (Same neighborhood, and I've actually delivered pizza to a previous resident of his house)[04:40:33] <JonathanThompson> He lives perhaps 1/4 mile away from where I did.[04:41:08] <DeadYak> JT: out what way?[04:41:27] <JonathanThompson> Where I lived in northwest Indianapolis.[04:41:47] <JonathanThompson> He pays HOA dues to the same place I did :P[04:42:02] <DeadYak> ah.[04:43:14] <JonathanThompson> It's easy to find a house for sale in that neighbhorhood right now.[04:43:21] <JonathanThompson> Hard to sell one...[04:43:22] <DeadYak> why's that?[04:43:30] <JonathanThompson> Too many for sale, due to people not being able to pay for them.[04:43:41] <DeadYak> ah[04:43:46] <JonathanThompson> That, combined with the fact that it is a neighborhood with a lot of first homes.[04:43:54] <DeadYak> I take it the indianapolis economy isn't doing so hot?[04:43:55] <JonathanThompson> BryanV has a larger one than I had.[04:44:02] <JonathanThompson> That's why I'm here :)[04:44:07] <umccullough> that will soon be the case here in CA[04:44:28] <umccullough> as people get backwards on their interest-only home loans :P[04:44:28] *** Nies has quit IRC[04:44:33] *** scanty has joined #haiku[04:45:07] <JonathanThompson> It's scanty!!!!![04:45:15] <scanty> yay :)[04:45:17] <scanty> hello, JonathanThompson[04:45:44] <JonathanThompson> What are you up to, other than a low body weight and height? :)[04:45:55] <DeadYak> hah.[04:46:09] * JonathanThompson sends food at scanty to try to bring him up to spec[04:46:21] <JonathanThompson> What do you want on your pizza, scanty? :)[04:46:56] <scanty> not too much really.... trying to get back into NES development again.[04:46:59] <scanty> got my kit working in linux.[04:47:03] <scanty> mmm pizza.[04:47:08] <scanty> i want everything on it :)[04:47:19] * JonathanThompson loads on the pork, bacon, sausage, everything...[04:47:19] *** stargater has quit IRC[04:47:26] <scanty> JonathanThompson, I lost all my BeOS data.[04:47:29] <meianoite> healthy stuff[04:47:32] <scanty> dunno if I told you or not.[04:47:35] * JonathanThompson has had a hard time finding kosher pork :P[04:47:44] <JonathanThompson> I think I might have read that in BeShare.[04:47:56] <meianoite> JonathanThompson kosher food sucks[04:48:05] <JonathanThompson> There's far worse, meianoite.[04:48:11] <meianoite> they take away all the goodness[04:48:13] <JonathanThompson> Though I do admit, I do enjoy pork.[04:48:20] <DeadYak> I'd die without pork[04:48:29] <scanty> guess someone never ate israeli food then.[04:48:29] <JonathanThompson> So would all pigs :P[04:48:32] <scanty> because it doesn't suck.[04:48:36] <scanty> but oh well, you wouldn't know.[04:48:40] <meianoite> that pork thing in particular is kind of exactly what keeps me away from converting to islamism[04:48:53] <meianoite> and the alcohol policy[04:49:13] <JonathanThompson> There are things I consider far more important that'd be sacrificed than that, meianoite.[04:49:28] <meianoite> like?[04:49:35] * SiCuTDeUx wonders why it hasnt been released a remake of McGiver[04:49:40] <JonathanThompson> Such as how woman are treated, and relations between them.[04:49:46] <SiCuTDeUx> McGiver > 24[04:49:54] <meianoite> well, that depends, JonathanThompson[04:50:28] <umccullough> McGyver?[04:50:35] <meianoite> islamism per se is not that mysogynic[04:50:35] <SiCuTDeUx> umccullough: the same[04:50:42] <meianoite> but some interpretations of it... eh.[04:50:54] <umccullough> SiCuTDeUx: used to be one of my favorite shows when i was younger :)[04:51:01] <SiCuTDeUx> mine too[04:51:08] <meianoite> all hail the Angus![04:51:48] <meianoite> one of the few names that got turned into a verb :)[04:52:18] <meianoite> "I just MacGyvered this"[04:52:29] <meianoite> umccullough, MacGyver, btw[04:52:32] <meianoite> not Mc ;)[04:52:37] <meianoite> but I can see where you're coming from[04:52:38] <meianoite> :D[04:52:41] <umccullough> meianoite: you're corerct ;)[04:53:04] <umccullough> i knew it looked odd[04:53:13] <umccullough> but it's been an awful long time since i've seen it![04:54:30] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite: brazilian?[04:54:46] <meianoite> yep[04:55:53] <meianoite> I know you speak Spanish, but I can't really pinpoint what your country is, SiCuTDeUx[04:56:17] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite: we are so close...[04:56:22] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite: venezuela[04:56:28] <meianoite> hm[04:56:30] <meianoite> close enough :)[04:56:33] <SiCuTDeUx> :D[04:57:09] <meianoite> the BeOS community is a diverse one, indeed[04:57:21] <SiCuTDeUx> indeed[04:57:40] <meianoite> I kind of miss the japanese, though[04:57:55] <meianoite> there used to be *lots* of them who were BeOS fans and rabid users[04:59:30] <umccullough> oh jeez, ended up being 33mb after all dependent packages are installed[04:59:50] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite: kokito is in touch with them...[05:00:03] <umccullough> should be #haiku-jp[05:00:15] *** scanty has quit IRC[05:00:18] <SiCuTDeUx> at least he helds a community jp based site[05:00:28] <meianoite> only kokito and the CIA bot are there heh ;)[05:00:38] <SiCuTDeUx> heh[05:00:51] <meianoite> F K U C[05:00:56] <meianoite> I just set the clocks right[05:01:01] <meianoite> and the light went off ONCE MORE[05:01:11] <meianoite> god bless the UPS[05:01:12] <JonathanThompson> HA HA HA HA[05:01:16] <meianoite> but damn it[05:01:29] <SiCuTDeUx> hahaha[05:01:33] <umccullough> UPS good[05:01:58] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite: here in venezuela we got a lot of problems with electricity too...[05:01:58] <JonathanThompson> I had problems in northwest Indianapoilis with the power being disrupted, sometimes several times a day, for no apparent reason. I suspect it was because I lived near some heavy industrial moters.[05:02:25] <meianoite> thankfully it's precisely midnight right now, so setting the clocks is trivial ;)[05:02:27] <umccullough> we have a lot of power problems in the winter due to the snow and trees falling[05:02:44] <meianoite> today a pole just blew up[05:02:49] <meianoite> took away power and cable tv[05:03:00] * JonathanThompson wonders when a Brazilian will blow up next[05:03:02] <meianoite> AND cable broadband, naturally =P[05:03:24] <meianoite> JonathanThompson aim for the congressmen, NOT me =P[05:03:33] <meianoite> I'm useful to the Haiku project ;)[05:03:38] <meianoite> (somewhat.)[05:03:43] * JonathanThompson wonders if the congresscritters will use meianoite as a human shield[05:04:06] <umccullough> brb (reboot)[05:04:21] <JonathanThompson> Is Brazil a place women can't be in those powerful political positions, meianoite?[05:04:25] <meianoite> I should have kept my mouth shut about the kevlar vest[05:04:31] <meianoite> not really[05:04:45] <JonathanThompson> Better watch how you refer to people, then :)[05:04:49] <meianoite> they do occupy key places in politics[05:04:56] <JonathanThompson> (unless you just want to get rid of the guys)[05:04:57] <meianoite> nah, the girls do allright[05:05:03] <meianoite> the men, though, they suck[05:05:18] * JonathanThompson won't touch that with the most obvious bad thing[05:06:12] *** umccullough has quit IRC[05:06:29] <meianoite> getting rid of male humans is always a positive thing in my book ;) unless they're family, then it's not that ok.[05:06:40] *** Nies_ has quit IRC[05:06:54] * JonathanThompson gets a surgeon to start with meianoite to fulfill his wishes :)[05:07:09] <meianoite> but male inlaws... they're disposable by definition :)[05:08:03] <meianoite> JonathanThompson there's no way, *absolutely no way*, any blade will get anywhere near my private parts[05:08:18] <DeadYak> back[05:08:22] <meianoite> nor lasers, FTM.[05:08:28] * JonathanThompson was wondering how long it'd take for meianoite to connect the dots :P[05:08:30] <DeadYak> hah, lasers[05:08:48] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[05:08:59] <umccullough> hmm... is this better?[05:09:20] <meianoite> connecting the dots was the easiest part. refraining myself from telling you to run a famous disk checkup utility on yourself, though... that was tough.[05:09:31] <JonathanThompson> :)[05:09:38] <umccullough> still generic video card...[05:11:01] <meianoite> JonathanThompson on a related note, there was this t-shirt[05:11:07] <JonathanThompson> Oh?[05:11:12] <meianoite> "fsck; man woman[05:11:19] <meianoite> Segmentation fault, core dumped"[05:11:29] <meianoite> hilarious :)[05:11:59] <JonathanThompson> Geek humor, certainly :P[05:14:35] <umccullough> ok, how do i configure xorg?[05:14:56] <JonathanThompson> With a digital hammer :)[05:15:19] <meianoite> xorg -configure[05:15:30] <meianoite> ;)[05:15:39] <_hugo> umccullough: what do you wish to configure?[05:15:40] <umccullough> really? that doesn't work...[05:15:55] <pyCube> umccullough: um, configure it to do what?[05:15:55] <umccullough> _hugo: it's still using vesa after installing the nvidia-glx package[05:16:09] <pyCube> umccullough: in ubuntu?[05:16:12] <umccullough> yeah[05:16:20] * JonathanThompson wonders if umccullough has hit a circular dependency: you need this to make that work, but you need that to work before you can run this....[05:16:21] <_hugo> umccullough: you need to hand edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf[05:16:28] <umccullough> you'll have to excuse me, all my linux experience is CLI :P[05:16:29] <pyCube> no you dont[05:16:35] <umccullough> hand edit... cute[05:16:40] <pyCube> nonsense[05:16:50] <_hugo> pyCube: enlighten us then :-)[05:16:51] <umccullough> there was an nvidia-settings package i DIDN'T install...[05:16:59] <umccullough> was i supposed to install that also?[05:17:06] <pyCube> sudo nvidia-xconfig[05:17:36] <umccullough> ah..[05:17:43] <umccullough> ok, i so i guess i need to restart x now?[05:17:50] <umccullough> can that be done without a reboot?[05:17:58] <JonathanThompson> You should be able to.[05:17:59] <_hugo> umccullough: it can, if you logout it restarts X[05:18:02] <meianoite> definitely, umccullough[05:18:05] <umccullough> ok[05:18:06] <JonathanThompson> x is just a user-space application.[05:18:06] <pyCube> assuming you want to see the effects of the xconf change[05:18:17] *** umccullough has quit IRC[05:18:23] <meianoite> pyCube maybe sighup is enough?[05:18:32] <_hugo> meianoite: to change a driver?[05:18:33] * meianoite never tried sighupping X[05:18:48] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[05:18:50] <meianoite> _hugo I've seen stranger things[05:18:51] <pyCube> i know linux seems complex to beos users.. but its the fallout of an os that can actually do things :-p[05:18:54] <umccullough> hmm... seems a little faster[05:19:29] *** Nies_ has joined #haiku[05:19:29] <meianoite> _hugo perhaps sighupping the xdm could work[05:19:34] <meianoite> who knows[05:19:35] <umccullough> now it's "Generic Video Card" with a driver of nvidia :P[05:19:46] <pyCube> thats just a description string[05:19:54] <pyCube> the "generic" bit[05:20:08] <umccullough> it still lags when i drag a window around[05:20:25] <umccullough> no...it's not right yet...[05:20:32] <umccullough> refresh rate is still limited to 61hz[05:20:38] <umccullough> that can't be right[05:20:45] <umccullough> brb[05:20:49] *** umccullough has quit IRC[05:22:56] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[05:23:00] <umccullough> NOW it's better[05:23:08] <umccullough> rebooted entirely[05:23:17] <_hugo> what did you do previously?[05:23:23] <umccullough> logout[05:23:46] <_hugo> well, when you logout X is restarted. possibly the kernel driver wasn't loaded or something like that[05:23:49] <pyCube> i alwasy to /etc/init.d/gdm restart[05:23:57] <pyCube> right[05:24:20] <umccullough> yeah... when i restarted i actually saw an nvidia logo screen before the login screen[05:24:48] <umccullough> now i only have 234mb of updates to install :([05:25:07] <umccullough> should i just upgrade to 7.04?[05:25:13] <pyCube> OH NO!! I have apps and sometimes they get updated!![05:25:17] <pyCube> hehe[05:25:18] <pyCube> yes[05:25:21] <pyCube> absolutely[05:25:25] *** forQed has joined #haiku[05:25:26] <_hugo> umccullough: didnt you install 7.04?[05:25:34] <umccullough> no, i did 6.10 cuz i had it lying around[05:25:38] <pyCube> bah..[05:25:45] <umccullough> oopsie :)[05:25:46] <pyCube> wipe it out with a nice fresh fiesty install[05:25:47] <_hugo> you should have installed 7.04[05:26:07] <umccullough> aight...well - i guess i'll d/l 7.04 ... probably take all f'ing night[05:26:10] <_hugo> umccullough: you may upgrade, but a clean install is generally better. upgrading works though, i've been doing so for a couple years[05:26:47] <umccullough> i'm gonna boot back into XP for now cuz i have some DC projects that aren't getting their CPU cycle fix ;)[05:26:51] <pyCube> yeah..my main machine has been through several ubuntu iterations, all updated form previous[05:27:18] <umccullough> bbib[05:27:24] *** umccullough has quit IRC[05:27:35] <meianoite> I'm not comfortable with Linux[05:27:37] <meianoite> I mean, I *am*[05:28:03] <meianoite> I admin a Linux cluster, FTM[05:28:06] <pyCube> i dont have any complaints with ubuntu.. none[05:28:13] <meianoite> but the GNU userland, ewk =P[05:28:32] <_hugo> meianoite: compared to?[05:28:33] <meianoite> Haiku can't be built under FreeBSD, can it?[05:28:42] <meianoite> _hugo there's your answer :)[05:29:10] <_hugo> i guess that's a matter of habit. i feel the FreeBSD user utilities to be inferior to GNU's[05:29:37] <_hugo> although the GNU fileutils etc tend to be a more complex than they should[05:29:46] <_hugo> *tend to be a bit[05:30:07] <meianoite> not inferior, only not suffering from the "kitchen sink" syndrome[05:30:13] *** forQed has quit IRC[05:30:25] <pyCube> as a user/desktop os, the only diff between *nix and *bsd... *bsd is not *nix[05:30:27] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[05:30:30] <meianoite> for example, several GNU utilities sport a --recursive flag[05:30:51] <meianoite> but under *BSDs you're supposed to use 'find' with the -exec argument to attain recursion[05:31:00] <_hugo> meianoite: typing more is better i assume[05:31:02] <umccullough> gnu grep is a good example[05:31:12] <_hugo> i like to do grep -Re[05:31:12] <meianoite> umccullough, *nod*[05:31:28] <_hugo> versus find . -exec grep -e ... {} \;[05:31:35] <meianoite> _hugo,NO building aliases for common usages is better[05:31:39] <_hugo> unless im looking for a set of particular files[05:31:54] <meianoite> instead of letting featuritis creep in[05:32:49] <meianoite> I confess I'm really not keen on GNU utilities[05:32:52] <meianoite> my shell is tcsh[05:33:49] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[05:34:02] <meianoite> but sometimes the gnu extensions are really nice.[05:34:17] <meianoite> the bash for loop, for exemple[05:34:40] <meianoite> but most of the time it's just featuritis[05:34:58] <meianoite> what I'd really, really, REALLY love would be *BSD style userland and Linux kernel[05:35:10] <meianoite> just because of the HW support[05:35:20] <DeadYak> I tend to prefer the *BSD kernels too personally :)[05:35:41] <meianoite> there's a project to port the Linux driver APIs to FreeBSD[05:35:47] <meianoite> *that* *will* *rock*.[05:35:52] <DeadYak> meh[05:36:24] <meianoite> "meh", but it's better than subjecting yourself to Marvell's whims, for example[05:36:27] <meianoite> or nvidia's[05:36:28] <_hugo> linux has several problems, but freebsd has its set of problems as well[05:36:29] <DeadYak> I don't find myself missing much in the way of hardware support in FBSD 7[05:36:43] <meianoite> DeadYak HDA audio rings a bell? oops, no, it's muted ;)[05:36:45] <DeadYak> and frankly most of the extra hardware support I find in Linux is in the form of very half-assed drivers that barely work[05:37:00] <DeadYak> but hey, it's "supported"![05:37:34] <meianoite> anyway, no one told me if one can build Haiku under FreeBSD. I seem to recall Ingo saying it's not supported[05:37:42] <pyCube> to me, a well maintained, vast package repo like ubuntu's is the absolute key factor[05:38:08] <pyCube> when i am in freebsd, for example, thats what i miss almost immediately[05:38:18] <DeadYak> *blink*[05:38:21] <DeadYak> what's wrong with ports?[05:38:30] <DeadYak> last I checked it had something like 18000 packages[05:38:40] <pyCube> i dont like it, for startes.. its more complex, more prone to "WTF?!" breakiness[05:38:44] <pyCube> starters[05:38:45] <DeadYak> if you say so[05:38:55] <DeadYak> I've had more stuff break in Linux distros than I ever have in FBSD[05:39:15] <_hugo> apt-get/dpkg is the best package management system i've used so far[05:39:20] <pyCube> i have a broken freebsd install right now.. no idea what happened.. i wasnt even trying anything funky[05:39:32] <pyCube> but i have never managed to break my ubuntu installs[05:39:32] <_hugo> (i've used ports)[05:39:59] <_hugo> but its a matter of taste as well i guess[05:40:04] <pyCube> but again, this whole discussion comes down to A is not B[05:40:19] <meianoite> pyCube I never managed to make ports break[05:40:20] <meianoite> but apt?[05:40:30] <meianoite> I really must go the extra mile NOT to break apt[05:40:37] <_hugo> meianoite: don't see how[05:40:39] <DeadYak> my coworker that uses Ubuntu at work's broken it about 5 times since he installed it a month ago[05:40:41] <_hugo> or why[05:40:46] <pyCube> to be honest, i dont think i have ever gotten ports to work at all[05:41:04] <DeadYak> were you using portupgrade/portinstall?[05:41:06] <_hugo> i don't see how one would break apt-get/dpkg (besides deleting system files)[05:41:08] <DeadYak> or doing it by hand yourself?[05:41:29] <meianoite> _hugo, try keeping a pair of repositories.[05:41:29] <CHodapp_> my Windows installs regularly self-destructed... I don't think it's possible to make DOS self-destruct... had a few Windows installations I destroyed myself in a thoroughly stupid way[05:41:37] <meianoite> try mixing testing and stable[05:41:38] <pyCube> DeadYak: i dunno.. i read a howto, and follwed some stuff... none of it really makes any sense to me[05:41:42] <meianoite> or testing and unstable[05:41:54] <meianoite> try injecting a single package from a different repo[05:41:55] <DeadYak> pycube: install portupgrade and just use that next time[05:42:10] <meianoite> try keeping multiple versions of stuff[05:42:12] <_hugo> meianoite: i have, and you are not supposed too. saying that things that shouldnt work break isnt very clever[05:42:17] <meianoite> try chrooting stuff[05:42:22] <pyCube> nah.. i have a completely stable and productive setup now with ubuntu[05:42:43] <meianoite> debian of late is probably not that prone to breaking[05:42:45] <pyCube> i cant see why i would switch simply just to switch[05:43:05] * umccullough is starting to wonder if he should stick with windows - that he knows how to maintain[05:43:05] <meianoite> since they seem to have snapped out of overpatching obsoleted versions of software[05:43:39] *** JamesB192 has quit IRC[05:43:40] <meianoite> but everytime I'm maintaining a Linux install, I find myself craving for something like Solaris =P[05:44:01] <pyCube> umccullough: : i dont recall having to 'maintain' ubuntu.. it just works for me[05:44:21] <meianoite> pyCube if all you need is inside universe, you're all set[05:44:36] <meianoite> but when it's not... *shivers*[05:44:44] <pyCube> i have no patience for fiddling and f**king around with oses anymore[05:44:58] <_hugo> meianoite: isnt it the same in freebsd?[05:45:18] <pyCube> if i am gonna fiddle and f**k around, i want it to be in the context of my code[05:45:26] <_hugo> how does the freebsd ports fix the issue of wanting to install something that isnt in a port[05:45:29] <meianoite> somehow, I find FreeBSD harder to break and easier to fix when things break[05:45:46] <_hugo> oh well[05:46:52] <meianoite> my main pet peeve with apt is that it doesn't support source installs[05:47:21] <_hugo> meianoite: apt-build[05:47:29] <pyCube> after years of beos.. putting up with real world hassle after hassle for no better reason than the principal of "but, but...beos is better", well.. it just seems silly[05:47:29] <meianoite> and my main pet peeve with portage is that it doesn't support binary installs =P[05:47:40] <meianoite> _hugo I meant "support", not "allow"[05:47:51] <meianoite> apt-build can't handle recursive dependencies[05:48:04] <meianoite> actually, no dependencies at all[05:48:13] <meianoite> either things are already installed, or it just fails[05:48:15] <umccullough> i'll admit, portage is cool - but painful as all hell over my connection[05:48:36] <DeadYak> Gentoo's probably the linux dist I dislike the least[05:48:37] <_hugo> meianoite: apt-get build-dep[05:48:50] <meianoite> _hugo it doesn't work.[05:48:55] <meianoite> believe me.[05:48:56] <meianoite> it fails.[05:49:01] <umccullough> i attempted gentoo a while back and got fed up after > 24hours of downloading and building[05:49:52] *** knoedel has joined #haiku[05:50:05] <meianoite> ports *never* failed on me. and I can mix them with packages. and they don't break each other.[05:50:16] <meianoite> and there's no "stable", "testing", "unstable" nonsense[05:50:37] <meianoite> thing either mesh and work, or they're never commited to ports in the first place[05:51:12] <CHodapp_> umccullough: it took 24? only took 4 before I quit.[05:51:50] <pyCube> also, my main project for work runs significantly worse in freebsd than debian[05:51:51] <umccullough> CHodapp_, i gave it extra time knowing my connection was the bottleneck ;)[05:52:21] <meianoite> pyCube what's the bottleneck on your project? I/O, CPU, memory?[05:52:21] <CHodapp_> umccullough: short version: my box had a wireless card. I needed to get drivers. Packages were online.[05:52:34] <umccullough> lol[05:52:38] <CHodapp_> umccullough: the channel told me to "emerge magical_fix" over and over and over and over[05:52:52] <CHodapp_> didn't get that I didn't have internet access...[05:53:01] <pyCube> meianoite: its a large webapp.. i was testing reqs/pages per sec[05:53:21] <pyCube> a giant twisted server.. all nice and async[05:53:29] <meianoite> and I assume you never read about the tunables......[05:53:33] <CHodapp_> eventually I got a source tarball but no one could tell me which package had uuencode/uudecode, which my driver needed to compile (for whatever reason)[05:53:39] <umccullough> hmm.. 7.04 iso is 2% downloaded now :P[05:53:42] <meianoite> but I DO assume you tried both OSs on the same hardware, right??[05:53:54] <pyCube> yes[05:53:59] <meianoite> phew.[05:54:06] <pyCube> epoll based in linux, kqueue in bsd[05:54:10] <umccullough> looks like i won't have the opportunity to install ubuntu 7.04 until tomorrow night at this rate[05:54:31] <meianoite> pyCube there are key tunables you must set to get decent performance levels on FreeBSD[05:54:47] <meianoite> and this has been discussed all over the 'net[05:55:02] <pyCube> well, we get great perf out of debian/lin2.6.x[05:55:22] <pyCube> and we know deb... so no reason that i can see to switch anytime soon[05:55:31] <meianoite> I invite you to try it again, but only after some research about the tunables. especially those controlling net queues. you'll be surprised :)[05:56:03] <pyCube> we are setting up a solaris lab..probing that option[05:56:40] <meianoite> Solaris is OK too. very solid stack.[05:56:51] <meianoite> and the way it integrates with zones is just perfect[05:56:56] *** knoedel has quit IRC[05:57:02] <DeadYak> 4 hours? damn[05:57:34] <pyCube> its just a mattter of what works best for this app.. large python, async app server[05:58:30] * umccullough curses etrade for their stupid account management blunders[05:59:18] <CHodapp_> I should try out a commercial Unix, someday[05:59:28] <meianoite> pyCube to be completely honest, if your app is heavily threaded, both ULE and 4BSD schedulers will suck. no wonder they're doing CORE now[05:59:43] <meianoite> ULE will suck less, but it breaks other stuff. it was never stable.[06:00:00] <pyCube> it not very thready at all[06:00:01] <meianoite> but I'd be surprised if it performs less and the app is select based[06:00:33] <meianoite> well, colour me surprised then =P[06:00:55] <pyCube> like i said.. its a big twisted server.. and twisted is brilliant in its asynciness[06:02:32] * umccullough suspects "twisted" isnt' just an adjective[06:02:32] <meianoite> bbiaw[06:03:08] <pyCube> umccullough: heh.. no... http://twistedmatrix.com[06:03:11] <meianoite> umccullough event-driven Python framework[06:03:16] <umccullough> :)[06:03:19] <meianoite> but I have no idea how they implemented it[06:03:24] <meianoite> now, really: bbiaw[06:03:30] <pyCube> beautifully[06:03:32] <pyCube> :-p[06:05:31] <umccullough> sometimes i wonder if I need to get out of client/server (database) GUI apps and into something more challenging ;)[06:06:36] <DeadYak> databases can be fun :)[06:07:21] <umccullough> DeadYak, oh yes - i absolutely ADORE SQL[06:07:35] <umccullough> T-SQL as it may be...but SQL nonetheless[06:07:37] <DeadYak> umccullough: well, depends what server you're working with :)[06:07:44] * DeadYak <3 Postgres[06:07:49] <pyCube> oh man.. when it comes to db's.. i absolutely LOVE this: http://divmod.org/trac/wiki/DivmodAxiom[06:07:52] <umccullough> DeadYak, mostly MSSQL[06:07:55] <DeadYak> eep[06:07:56] <pyCube> coolest sh*t ever.. hehe[06:07:57] <DeadYak> my sympathies[06:08:22] <umccullough> DeadYak, really, i've been working with it for so long, it's mostly the only thing I know any more ;)[06:08:36] <pyCube> thats too bad, umccullough[06:08:37] <pyCube> hehe[06:08:40] <umccullough> when i started back in 93, we also worked with Oracle and DB2... but i've long since stopped using those[06:09:13] <umccullough> at least MSSQL is mostly SQL92 compliant[06:09:31] <umccullough> ugh, i hate object databses[06:09:40] <pyCube> no[06:09:42] <pyCube> this is different[06:09:44] <pyCube> hehe[06:09:53] <umccullough> is it siginificantly different than Versant?[06:10:03] <umccullough> that's the only real experience I had with an ODBMS[06:10:32] <pyCube> you knwo how cool it is for your foreign key relations to actually be the foreign object, not simply a pointer/ref to it?[06:10:53] <pyCube> super cool..[06:10:54] <umccullough> like containment?[06:10:54] <pyCube> hehe[06:12:21] <pyCube> sya you have a school table, and users table.. and users relate to schools.. select a user.. user.school.address gives you the schools address of the school that user attends[06:12:46] <umccullough> yeah... but that's an extremely simple example ;)[06:12:51] <pyCube> it is[06:13:11] <umccullough> in the insurance industry, we work with a lot of temporal relationship information[06:13:17] <pyCube> hbut when you have complex relations, traversing the relations is a breeze[06:13:20] <umccullough> date ranges are everything[06:14:08] <umccullough> almost everything i do involves aggregation based on date ranges[06:14:43] <umccullough> and it's bi-temporal data - complete with transaction time and effective time[06:15:02] <umccullough> so we record not only when a change was made, but when it's effective[06:16:05] * JonathanThompson wonders when umccullough will transmogrify into using time-traveler databases[06:16:54] <JonathanThompson> "This will have happened in the past, once I've done this certain thing in the future that I'm describing in the present"[06:17:05] * DeadYak transmogrifies JonathanThompson into an ice cream sandwich[06:17:23] * JonathanThompson melts with DeadYak, and then refreezes in horror at what that may mean[06:17:26] <pyCube> an It's-It?[06:18:02] <umccullough> JonathanThompson, it's so much fun talking to idiot-users about how bi-temporal data works[06:18:29] <umccullough> like: you made this change effective such and such, and therefore the premium due to the member is calculated prorata using this ratio, etc.[06:19:06] <JonathanThompson> Insurance adjusters database systems==IT support employment act :)[06:19:13] <umccullough> you can sometimes hear the gears grind to a halt on the other end of the phone ;)[06:19:37] <JonathanThompson> I've accomplished that with listeners/readers of what I say every so often :)[06:19:54] <umccullough> my favorite part is when you ask them: So, how is the premium supposed to be calculated? and they can't give you an answer...[06:20:34] <pyCube> i like when customers demand some feature, but fail to think about what that feaure actually means[06:21:03] <JonathanThompson> And then you implement exactly what they ask for, but they whine it doesn't do what they want.[06:21:11] <JonathanThompson> That happens with internal customers, too :([06:21:19] <umccullough> yep, that happens daily :P[06:21:22] <DeadYak> "Do what I mean, not what I say"[06:21:42] <DeadYak> our customers have a bad habit of asking for the world's most retarded features :/[06:21:55] <JonathanThompson> Time to get new customers :)[06:22:10] <JonathanThompson> Or put a retarded feature premium on what they ask for, train them by $ :)[06:22:23] <pyCube> DeadYak: you must have the same customers we have[06:22:41] <DeadYak> pyCube: are you in the voip industry? :P[06:22:59] <pyCube> but then, our customers are teachers/educators.. so they are obligated to be technological retards[06:23:10] <JonathanThompson> "I want 100-way calling, and only required to dial 2 numbers!"[06:24:34] <pyCube> i make online curriculum software.. dont wanna scare any of you that might have kids.. but teachers almost always bitch about "how come we have to manually grade essays/paragraph question types?[06:24:40] <pyCube> "[06:25:01] <DeadYak> I hate that about the school system over here[06:25:13] <JonathanThompson> Sure, pyCube. you're infinitely qualified to write software to grade what someone can type in free-form for essay answers :P[06:25:14] <DeadYak> this is the one and only place I've ever lived where multiple choice is even an option[06:25:47] * JonathanThompson suggests that pyCube actually DO that for one question, but have it return every answer as wrong[06:26:57] <pyCube> DeadYak: critical thinking is out of the question.. especially for teachers[06:27:05] <JonathanThompson> Even if you were yourself qualified to grade those essay questions by hand, it'd be infeasible (to put it mildly) to write code that could replicate the human checking behavior.[06:27:13] <DeadYak> pyCube: seemingly :/[06:27:21] <DeadYak> especially now with this No Child Left Behind BS[06:27:31] <pyCube> eesh[06:27:35] <DeadYak> watch even more real teaching go out the window to spend time concentrating on another BS test[06:27:53] <JonathanThompson> If a kid refuses to learn, hold them back. If they're incapable of learning more, don't progress them further.[06:28:10] <DeadYak> JT: you're not allowed to do that now, you might hurt the kid's self esteem[06:28:15] <JonathanThompson> Sadly, not everyone has the same capacity and/or interest in learning anything.[06:28:18] <DeadYak> hoo boy is this generation in for a shock when they hit the real world[06:28:23] <JonathanThompson> That's complete BS.[06:28:27] <pyCube> thats one of the things i am trying to create.. a way to break up the standards based education nonsense.. allow/encourage teachers to be creative in their teaching, yet in the end, let them map stands to what they do[06:28:27] <DeadYak> yes, yes it is[06:28:30] <DeadYak> but it's what's happening :/[06:28:31] <JonathanThompson> It may hurt their esteem, but reality sucks.[06:28:46] <DeadYak> one of my friends was a schoolteacher in AZ[06:28:49] <DeadYak> this shit drove her insane[06:29:01] <DeadYak> she was quite literally told by the school board that she was not allowed to fail a kid[06:29:02] <pyCube> the biggest issue with education is the time/age based aspect of it.. "at 8 yrs old, child should know X, Y,and Z.." what a load of crap[06:29:04] <DeadYak> for that exact reason[06:29:05] <JonathanThompson> If they can't learn, they can't later earn once in the real world, and I can't think of anything worse than being setup fcr failure by being lied to for many years.[06:29:06] <umccullough> DeadYak, no, they'll be fine - they're taught from a young age to blame others for their irresponsibility and inadequacies[06:29:28] <JonathanThompson> That's the way things are going, sadly, umccullough.[06:29:46] <pyCube> DeadYak: you are in AZ?[06:29:53] <DeadYak> I was for a while[06:29:54] <JonathanThompson> Never mind it may be that they're not capable of learning, regardless of how hard they try, and others may be able to, but refuse to try hard enough to achieve it.[06:29:58] <DeadYak> back when I was in school[06:30:02] <DeadYak> got my degree there[06:30:03] <pyCube> ah[06:30:06] <pyCube> asu?[06:30:09] <DeadYak> nope[06:30:11] <DeadYak> UA[06:30:16] <pyCube> ah[06:30:33] <JonathanThompson> And I'm with pyCube: don't expect everyone to advance like mass-produced cogs in a machine: people aren't linear in how and when they learn various things.[06:30:50] <pyCube> yeah[06:30:53] <DeadYak> JT: that's how it used to be, back when almost all schooling was private tutors and stuff[06:31:14] <JonathanThompson> Sometimes they advance faster than others at a given age, and other times slower, but may average out, or... maybe they'll far exceed everyone else, or far lag behind everyone else.[06:31:23] <pyCube> if you need to measure kids.. measure their PROGRESSS.. not their position in some completely out of context chart of where 8yrs olds should be[06:31:37] <umccullough> mm... i got stuff to do...'night all[06:31:44] <JonathanThompson> Bye umccullough.[06:31:45] * DeadYak pets umccullough[06:31:55] * JonathanThompson pets DeadYak petting umccullough[06:32:08] * umccullough feels petted[06:32:15] * surround1r pets JonathanThompson petting DeadYak petting umccullough[06:32:16] <JonathanThompson> Come on, let's get a petting train going! :)[06:32:18] *** surround1r is now known as surrounder[06:32:25] <JonathanThompson> That's more like it, surrounder! :)[06:32:28] <surrounder> :P[06:32:33] <DeadYak> yeah, surround us with petting![06:32:41] <surrounder> hehe[06:32:46] <_hugo> someone think of the children![06:32:48] <surrounder> I'm a mean clean petting machine[06:32:59] <JonathanThompson> Surround Petting! I'm sure that'll sell somewhere very well, like Las Vegas :P[06:33:06] * DeadYak rates _hugo XXX[06:33:07] <surrounder> rofl[06:33:08] * JonathanThompson thinks of how children come about[06:33:13] * _hugo strips[06:33:15] <pyCube> well, if anybody wants to work in the exciting field of education/curriculum, and maybe make some sweet tools that help kids and teachers... we are hiring :-p[06:33:16] <DeadYak> woot[06:33:26] <DeadYak> pyCue: random curiosity, what area?[06:33:28] <DeadYak> er[06:33:31] <DeadYak> geographic area that is[06:33:46] <JonathanThompson> Starts, ends with an A :)[06:33:53] <pyCube> phoenix metro.. chandler to be exact. i live in tempe[06:33:56] <DeadYak> oh.[06:34:09] <DeadYak> heh, wow, friend of mine used to live there[06:34:16] <DeadYak> there's a handful of things I miss from that area[06:34:27] <DeadYak> Aztec Shakes from Coffee Cabana being the most notable[06:34:34] * JonathanThompson has an "Arizona" t-shirt he acquired on the way to WalterCon when going through the Phoenix airport[06:35:38] <pyCube> i am trying to grow our sw dev dept.. its just me atm..[06:35:49] <pyCube> hehe[06:36:20] <JonathanThompson> So you can go on vacation? :)[06:36:30] <DeadYak> not overly familiar with Phoenix in general though, seeing as I've lived in Tucson the entire time I lived in AZ[06:36:37] <pyCube> so i can, um, focus for once[06:36:38] <pyCube> hehe[06:36:39] <_hugo> AZ = ?[06:36:42] <DeadYak> Arizona[06:36:44] <_hugo> ah[06:36:54] <JonathanThompson> What I saw from the air, except for some outcroppings of rocks, Phoenix looked pancake flat.[06:37:07] <pyCube> is a big bowl valley[06:37:20] <pyCube> surrounded by lots of not-flatness[06:37:46] <JonathanThompson> This area is a major contrast: you have to look for flat and level areas.[06:37:52] <pyCube> tuscon is nice[06:38:01] <JonathanThompson> Yesterday I saw a street where houses had insanely steep driveways.[06:38:06] <DeadYak> it is if you're in the right area[06:38:09] <JonathanThompson> Easily 25%+ grades on them.[06:38:15] <DeadYak> its residents by and large can't drive worth jack though :P[06:38:16] <surrounder> wuah[06:38:19] <surrounder> JonathanThompson: where's that ?[06:38:28] <JonathanThompson> I asked my friend as we were pulling up to a house "Is that a driveway or a cliff I'm looking at?"[06:38:31] <JonathanThompson> Bellevue, WA.[06:38:48] <surrounder> WA == ?[06:38:51] <JonathanThompson> It's a darn good thing snow and ice are very rare around here.[06:39:02] <JonathanThompson> The land where you can here Windows machines rebooting in the distance :)[06:39:10] <surrounder> hahaha[06:39:11] <JonathanThompson> (not that far, either: borders Redmond)[06:39:12] <pyCube> i think its city folk.. city folk cant drive, period[06:39:52] <JonathanThompson> As crazy as it sounds, surrounder, houses no more than 50 feet away from the street, and if you're on the street, you've got a perfect view of their entire roof from above :)[06:40:36] <surrounder> dang... I really can't imagine that[06:40:49] <JonathanThompson> I haven't looked too hard, but I'm willing to bet that within 15 miles of me, I could find a 3 story house with ground level access on each floor.[06:40:54] <pyCube> nice thing about this area is that the cost of living is pretty low[06:40:57] <JonathanThompson> I already know of a business building downtown Bellevue that has that.[06:41:11] <surrounder> especially since I live in one of the flatest countries in the world[06:41:17] <JonathanThompson> Where?[06:41:19] <JonathanThompson> Holland?[06:41:24] <surrounder> indeed[06:41:24] <pyCube> even if salaries scale, it would piss me off to pay $2k+ for rent ro whatever[06:42:00] <JonathanThompson> I've measured flat (but not level!) areas in Bellevue on a road or two that are about 1.5 miles long.[06:42:05] <JonathanThompson> Mind you, they're a hill that long.[06:42:12] <JonathanThompson> But... it's flat, or nearly so :P[06:43:03] <surrounder> not a nice place for people on bikes ;)[06:43:11] * JonathanThompson will have to take some pictures and post them on his site for people to understand the insanity of where and how things are built around here[06:43:25] <surrounder> hehe do that sometime :D[06:43:26] <JonathanThompson> Very good for getting up high speeds going down :)[06:43:58] <JonathanThompson> I'm sure one time last year I exceeded 30 mph down Market St in Kirkland.[06:44:10] <JonathanThompson> (on mountain bike)[06:44:46] <surrounder> 48.28032 km/h[06:44:46] <JonathanThompson> Running in this area can be great fun for the same reason :P[06:44:48] <surrounder> lol[06:44:50] <pyCube> i really miss proper roads[06:44:56] <pyCube> like, with curves and hills[06:44:57] <DeadYak> JT: I did that a lot back in Switzerland :P[06:45:19] <JonathanThompson> pyCube, drive on Mercer Island: the outside main roads are GREAT fun to drive:)[06:45:20] <DeadYak> then again, when you're a kid you tend to be more suicidal on bikes in general :P[06:45:27] <pyCube> i wanted a sweet fun car all my life because of those roads.. now, i have the car, and get to drive in grid pattern urban crap[06:46:11] <JonathanThompson> What's more, surrounder, my bike and me riding it aren't nearly as aerodynamic as the racing bikes :)[06:46:16] <JonathanThompson> I have A LOT of wind drag.[06:47:05] <JonathanThompson> I remember when my family drove to/from Utah in the summer of 84, and we ran across some bicyclists that were on the open highways.[06:47:22] <JonathanThompson> Somewhere (Colorado, I think, or maybe part of Utah) there were some long hills.[06:47:29] <JonathanThompson> We were doing 55-60 mph....[06:47:34] <JonathanThompson> Several of them passed us.[06:47:46] <pyCube> i remember deciding i wanted to luge after the 88 olympics... big hill + skateboard = shoes with no soles[06:47:56] <JonathanThompson> :P[06:48:11] <surrounder> pyCube: lol[06:48:19] <JonathanThompson> surrounder, you need to see the variety of landscape in the US to appreciate it.[06:48:53] <JonathanThompson> Desert? Got that. Mountains? got that. Surfing? Got that... temperate rain forest? Got that. Volcanos? Got that :)[06:49:10] <JonathanThompson> Flatlands? go to Florida :)[06:49:10] <pyCube> JonathanThompson: hell, thats california[06:49:11] <DeadYak> pyCube: I've done that XD[06:49:18] <DeadYak> pyCube: also = jeans in tatters :P[06:49:21] <pyCube> california has it all[06:49:31] <JonathanThompson> I dont think they have a temperate rain forest, pyCube.[06:49:36] <JonathanThompson> That's in Washington state.[06:49:38] <surrounder> JonathanThompson: aye, imaginable[06:49:49] <pyCube> DeadYak: hehe.. and lots of "AAAHAAHRGHAARGRHHG HOOOLLYY SSSHHH******T"[06:49:51] <JonathanThompson> Though they do have areas that get more rain on average than most of the rest of the country.[06:49:56] <surrounder> same with europe though, also really diverse[06:50:05] <DeadYak> pyCube: followed by "Whoa, that was coool, let's do it again!"[06:50:10] <pyCube> hehe[06:50:15] <DeadYak> I miss being a kid[06:50:18] <JonathanThompson> Oh, really low altitude, below sea level? California :P[06:50:29] <JonathanThompson> Death Valley, California.[06:50:40] <JonathanThompson> Where if you're staying around too long, your shoes melt to the road :P[06:50:56] <surrounder> ...[06:51:00] <surrounder> "nice"[06:51:09] <JonathanThompson> And there have been foot races through there, too.[06:51:11] <pyCube> surrounder: yes.. it is.. i spent a lot of time roaming a lot of europe. i remember places in southern spain that could totally be arizona[06:51:25] <surrounder> aaaah ok :)[06:51:46] <pyCube> i spent a good deal of time in NL too[06:51:55] <surrounder> nice, how did you like it ?[06:51:58] <pyCube> loved it[06:51:59] <JonathanThompson> Within a car's tank of gas, I've got skiing mountains, rafting, desert, surfing/fishing, rain forest, etc.[06:52:10] <surrounder> JonathanThompson: that is ideal :)[06:52:10] *** ormandj has joined #haiku[06:52:14] <ormandj> hiho[06:52:21] <surrounder> pyCube: only been in the west of the country I assume ?[06:52:22] <JonathanThompson> Housing is expensive in this area, too :P[06:52:25] <JonathanThompson> Greetings, ormandj.[06:52:34] <ormandj> salutations jonathanthompson[06:53:01] <ormandj> how's my friendly competitor doing?[06:53:04] <JonathanThompson> Hey surrounder, ever been away from the flat area you've lived in?[06:53:14] <JonathanThompson> I'm on track at work thus far, so that's good.[06:53:20] <ormandj> right on[06:53:38] <JonathanThompson> Their goal is to have me bug the others the absolute minimum while I get whatever they want me to get done, done.[06:53:46] <pyCube> surrounder: sure, but i did manage to see a bit outside amsterdam. i made a habit of hoping of the train in little towns, for n good reason[06:53:49] <ormandj> that's generally the goal of most employers :p[06:53:52] <JonathanThompson> That's what I got told by the manager on Friday.[06:53:53] <surrounder> JonathanThompson: I sure have, been to poland, france, spain, belgium and germany so far[06:53:58] <JonathanThompson> Well, they want it to an extreme :P[06:54:01] <surrounder> pyCube: amsterdam sucks imho :)[06:54:06] <ormandj> that might be due to your personality ;)[06:54:09] <JonathanThompson> :P[06:54:33] <JonathanThompson> So, it seems like the most anti-meeting place I've ever been to thus far.[06:54:42] <ormandj> good, meetings suck[06:54:49] <pyCube> surrounder: i like it. lots of interesting stuff to see[06:55:13] <JonathanThompson> I used to joke at the place in Indianapolis I last worked about meetings being "Software tithing" because they seemed to consistently take up 10% of the work week.[06:55:14] <surrounder> yeah but I don't like big cities that much[06:55:20] <pyCube> i lived in czech rep for a long while[06:55:42] <ormandj> haha jt, that's not far off, but i think it's more pet-the-management's-ego related[06:55:49] <pyCube> surrounder: me neither, but there are some really cool big old cities.. prague for example[06:56:03] <ormandj> management just likes to hear themselves speak and re-iterate what everybody already knows so they can say they control the projects that are related[06:56:06] <surrounder> yeah I've heard prague is really nice[06:56:09] <surrounder> pyCube: same with vienna[06:56:10] <JonathanThompson> Well, SQA meetings take on more importance in a place where the software is safety-related, ormandj.[06:56:19] <pyCube> and ni like the old style architecture in amsterdam.. the leaning weird old buildings[06:56:24] <surrounder> pyCube: my brother lives in the oldest city of .nl[06:56:33] *** ChrisHJW has joined #haiku[06:56:43] <ormandj> i dunno, the meetings i've been to have been a waste[06:56:45] <surrounder> the romans build stuff there 2000 years ago[06:56:48] <pyCube> i really liked amsterdam in february[06:56:51] <ormandj> nothing that couldn't have simply been emailed and in writing[06:56:57] <pyCube> much more calm..[06:57:04] <JonathanThompson> That's often the case, ormandj.[06:57:17] <JonathanThompson> That's why BugZilla exists :P[06:57:21] <ormandj> :p[06:57:31] <JonathanThompson> (or the local equivalent)[06:57:36] <ormandj> (understood)[06:57:41] <ormandj> for me, that's my inbox[06:57:42] <ormandj> lol[06:57:43] <surrounder> pyCube: true, a lot less completly stoned american tourists ;)[06:57:44] * surrounder runs[06:57:58] <pyCube> hehe[06:57:59] * ormandj trips surrounder[06:58:02] * JonathanThompson puts a tripwire in surrounder's path[06:58:11] <surrounder> awww, thanks peeps <3[06:58:12] <ormandj> gmta[06:58:26] <ormandj> well, could have been worse, i was thinking about using a claymore[06:58:26] <surrounder> it's just a fleshwound[06:58:39] <ormandj> but decided against it so as to not further ruin my hearing[06:58:41] <JonathanThompson> Claymore=body parts less :)[06:58:50] * surrounder goes and google[06:58:58] <pyCube> you cant imagine the frustration of finally getting out of the USA, going to amsterdam in the summer and seeing seas of obnoxious stoned american college kids[06:59:03] <ormandj> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore_mine[06:59:21] <ormandj> pyCube: what else would you expect?[06:59:24] <pyCube> nothing against getting stoned, hehe[06:59:34] <surrounder> ormandj: hehehe nice[06:59:35] <JonathanThompson> pyCube is all about getting stoned :)[06:59:44] <pyCube> ormandj: obnoxious stoned dutch kids, at the least.. hehe[06:59:49] <ormandj> pyCube: if you want to whine about that, imagine how i feel living in hawaii[06:59:59] <pyCube> ormandj: sorry..[07:00:00] <pyCube> hehe[07:00:05] <ormandj> i have obnoxious stoned kids from all over earth here 24x7 every day, every week, out of every year[07:00:14] <pyCube> people on vacation are horrid[07:00:20] <surrounder> eeek, poor ormandj[07:00:25] <JonathanThompson> Somehow, I don't think I'd want to live in the Hawaii climate.[07:00:25] <ormandj> most of the time yes, maybe 1 in 100 is cool[07:00:30] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: it gets old[07:00:43] <JonathanThompson> I'm not a tropical weather guy, I know that.[07:00:45] <meianoite> I go and take a shower and people start talking about blowing someone else with a landmine[07:00:46] <JonathanThompson> I also need seasons.[07:00:49] <ormandj> winter means 70F and more rain, summer is 80F and less rain[07:00:50] <meianoite> how typical of #haiku[07:00:50] <meianoite> ;)[07:00:53] <surrounder> meianoite: lol[07:01:02] <ormandj> meianoite: sorry, i am always bringing up interesting things :p[07:01:15] <JonathanThompson> And I'm gussing pretty high humidity most of the time, right, ormandj?[07:01:15] <ormandj> i got banned from talking about nazis in here[07:01:22] <ormandj> so claymores instead[07:01:23] <JonathanThompson> guessing.[07:01:27] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: yes, 100%[07:01:32] <surrounder> eeek[07:01:35] <ormandj> but the trade winds make it bearable[07:01:38] <JonathanThompson> Less controversial, ormandj :P[07:01:49] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: what about nazis with claymores? :p[07:01:55] <meianoite> aye, let's not talk about nazis again, shall we? unless you happen to be a medium and can talk to the deads from both sides[07:01:56] <surrounder> I'm sweating my ass off at 20C +[07:02:07] <JonathanThompson> I've experienced 100% humidity many times in the midwest, and there's NO WAY I'd want to live in a place where that happened all the time.[07:02:34] <ormandj> surrounder: 20c isn't bad if it's not too humid, that's what i keep my home at[07:02:36] <JonathanThompson> Definitely not in the temps Hawaii has.[07:02:49] <meianoite> 20C?[07:02:52] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: yeah, i hate the humidity too, it makes your skin feel gross[07:02:55] <ormandj> meianoite: 68f[07:02:56] <meianoite> that's COLD here[07:03:06] <ormandj> it's a good temp, i keep my home at that[07:03:07] <JonathanThompson> For me, 68f is fine.[07:03:11] <meianoite> ormandj I'm *completely* familiar with the Celsius scale ;)[07:03:27] <ormandj> meianoite: oh, sorry, used to those silly american tourists getting stoned in amsterdam[07:03:28] <ormandj> :p[07:03:35] <meianoite> lol ;)[07:03:36] <JonathanThompson> But when I go running, I prefer it to be cooler if I can.[07:03:42] <meianoite> 20C is *cold* here[07:03:44] <surrounder> the coldest I've had was -11C (12,2 F)[07:03:57] <surrounder> not nice on a moped without gloves[07:03:58] <surrounder> \o/[07:03:59] <meianoite> 24C is much more comfortable for me[07:03:59] <ormandj> weak, last winter i was in romania in brasov on a mountain[07:03:59] <JonathanThompson> 12.2 F?[07:04:22] <meianoite> Orlando was the hottest place I've been to, ever[07:04:24] * JonathanThompson has experienced -30 F without mentioning wind chill: his car loved it[07:04:31] <ormandj> it was normally -10, on the mountains was more like -30c without wind chill[07:04:45] <ormandj> that was damn damn cold[07:04:48] <JonathanThompson> I've also experienced 112 F in Terre Haute, Indiana with somewhere around 100% humidity.[07:04:49] <JonathanThompson> Ick.[07:04:56] <meianoite> before going to Orlando, I didn't even knew eyelids can sweat[07:05:00] <JonathanThompson> lol[07:05:01] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: try dallas (asphalt) at 121f[07:05:12] <ormandj> meianoite: lol, the humidity does it[07:05:15] <JonathanThompson> I've been in vegas a few times, ormandj :)[07:05:20] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: ewww[07:05:22] <surrounder> ormandj: eeeeek[07:05:27] <meianoite> ormandj I dunno, I believe that was the sheer heat[07:05:33] <JonathanThompson> Personally, Vegas is another place I wouldn't want to live.[07:05:38] <surrounder> boiling an egg on the road[07:05:39] <ormandj> meianoite: lol, could be that too, florida does get pretty hot[07:05:50] <ormandj> surrounder: oh, the road was much hotter[07:05:55] <ormandj> that was air temp over asphalt[07:06:00] <meianoite> not to mention how I'm definitely not used to that amount of chlorine on the water[07:06:11] <ormandj> meianoite: yeah, well, if you saw/smelled the normal water you'd die[07:06:13] <pyCube> eesh[07:06:16] <meianoite> heat + the taste of water == SUCKS[07:06:16] <JonathanThompson> Yes, ashphalt roads get >120 F even when the rest of everything is cooler.[07:06:21] <pyCube> city tap water sucks beyond belief[07:06:33] <surrounder> hehe, water here is great everywhere[07:06:34] <pyCube> i grew up with wells and springs[07:06:37] <meianoite> ormandj OUCH. I should be thankful for the chlorine, then[07:06:46] <JonathanThompson> I remember many times as a kid going swimming, and walking over dark road with bare feet :)[07:07:02] <JonathanThompson> Yes, you COULD cook an egg on them, easily, and this is in Michigan.[07:07:31] <_hugo> oh say can you seeeeee.. banana![07:07:32] <JonathanThompson> I remember in elementary, for a bit several kids (I tried it, didn't like it) dug into the ashphalt-topped play area with sticks.[07:07:53] <pyCube> here in phoenix, we get absurdly long stretches of 110-120F temps.[07:07:58] <JonathanThompson> It's not a good sign when the playground covering is hot enough you can dig at it with small sticks and get black sticky stuff :P[07:08:13] <surrounder> omfg[07:08:24] <surrounder> don't people just die in those temperatures? ;)[07:08:25] <meianoite> "ashphalt" <-- JonathanThompson, knowing you for nearly a whole week now, I definitely suspect you said that on purpose ;D[07:08:36] <JonathanThompson> :D[07:08:39] <pyCube> you have to stay up until 4AM just to get a glimpse of what it used to be like when going outside didnt suck beyond belief[07:09:18] <pyCube> surrounder: yes.. a lot of homeless people, old people, etc die[07:09:50] <meianoite> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070422-hps-ultra-efficient-high-volume-inkjet-so-good-they-wont-sell-it.html[07:09:51] <JonathanThompson> In colder climates they die for the opposite extreme quite often.[07:09:51] <meianoite> =P[07:10:06] <JonathanThompson> That the MEM stuff, meianoite?[07:10:07] <meianoite> HP. how I hate thy.[07:10:32] <ormandj> hm, i just acquired a free laptop[07:10:41] <meianoite> the URL is pretty self-explanatory, JonathanThompson ;)[07:10:50] <ormandj> toshiba r100, pentium m 900, 256 megs ram, cd rom drive and a 20gb hd[07:10:50] <JonathanThompson> :)[07:10:53] <ormandj> wonder what i should put on it[07:10:56] <meianoite> *thee, btw[07:11:07] <JonathanThompson> ormandj pointed me to a link for something that sounds like this is what it is, but higher resolution, meianoite :)[07:11:16] <surrounder> ormandj: nice![07:11:26] <surrounder> my craptop is quite a lot older *cough*[07:11:37] <surrounder> celeron 366, 64 MB RAM, 6 gb HD[07:11:40] <surrounder> gotta love it :<[07:11:40] * JonathanThompson isn't certain how old his youngest laptop is... but it has seen better days[07:11:41] <meianoite> what link btw?[07:11:49] <ormandj> hehe well i have a half dozen macbooks that i use for work, this is just a freebie[07:11:52] <JonathanThompson> For what, meianoite?[07:12:03] <meianoite> the one ormandj pointed you to[07:12:06] <ormandj> meianoite: you looking for the printer i showed JonathanThompson?[07:12:09] <JonathanThompson> Ah...[07:12:13] <surrounder> ormandj: :O, let me give you my adress, I pay the shipping ;)[07:12:16] <surrounder> macbooks <3[07:12:17] <JonathanThompson> Yes, I mentioned you mentioned a link, ormandj :)[07:12:17] <surrounder> ;)[07:12:28] <meianoite> I see this is going meta all over again[07:12:30] <meianoite> ;)[07:12:54] *** DeadYak has quit IRC[07:13:03] <ormandj> memjet.com[07:13:04] * JonathanThompson notes the HP printer doesn't have as high of a duty cycle/pages per month as his personal Okidata color laser printer[07:13:15] <ormandj> surrounder: hehe[07:13:33] <meianoite> o_O[07:13:43] <meianoite> your Oki printer TOPS 60 PPM?![07:13:49] <meianoite> holy.[07:14:04] <ormandj> :p[07:14:16] <ormandj> watch the videos[07:14:24] <JonathanThompson> No, not that fast.[07:14:33] <surrounder> your oki printer is faster than his own shadow :<[07:14:36] <JonathanThompson> it IS rated for 60K pages per month, though.[07:14:43] <ormandj> 60k duti cycle is awesome[07:14:47] <ormandj> oki makes awesome printers, actually[07:14:49] <ormandj> always liked them[07:14:55] <surrounder> never heard of 'em[07:15:06] <JonathanThompson> They've been around for a very long time, surrounder.[07:15:20] <JonathanThompson> I remember them putting out printers in the 80's[07:15:30] <ormandj> yep[07:15:41] <ormandj> they pioneered a lot of stuff from what i remember[07:15:42] <JonathanThompson> I don't remember before that, since I didn't have exposure to many printers before then :P[07:15:53] <ormandj> def. make some of the best quality printers out there for sure[07:16:07] <JonathanThompson> Though my Dad did work for Centronics until 1986, when they laid him off.[07:16:23] <pyCube> i had an okimate20 color thermal printer for my c64[07:16:35] <JonathanThompson> These days, Centronics is only really known as a name for a cable/interface standard.[07:16:45] <pyCube> pain in the ass, acutally[07:16:58] <JonathanThompson> Thermal printers in general always were, pyCube.[07:17:03] <ormandj> any work done towards haiku's wireless stack yet? haiku would make a perfect OS for this laptop. it's too slow to run much else[07:17:07] <surrounder> JonathanThompson: I can't remember much of the '80s since I was born second half of it ;)[07:17:17] <JonathanThompson> Ah, a young pup :P[07:17:21] <surrounder> hehe[07:17:25] <pyCube> heh[07:17:31] <ormandj> don't feel bad surrounder, i'm of 1982 vintage myself[07:17:32] <pyCube> first half of 70's here[07:17:40] <surrounder> ormandj: old fart ;)[07:17:43] <JonathanThompson> Very opening of 70's here.[07:17:52] <JonathanThompson> (July 71)[07:17:53] <meianoite> uh, ormandj[07:18:03] <meianoite> that looks *exactly* like the technology HP is touting[07:18:06] <surrounder> <- may, 86[07:18:13] <pyCube> feb 74[07:18:14] <JonathanThompson> Not the same resolution, curiously enough.[07:18:15] <ormandj> meianoite: HP must have bought the rights to it, then[07:18:28] <surrounder> ormandj: well, put linux on it with a wm instead of a de[07:18:28] <ormandj> because that's the firm that invented it[07:18:29] <meianoite> could't find res info, yet[07:18:44] <surrounder> ormandj: that notebook is really fast enough for anything you'd put on it[07:18:50] <JonathanThompson> 600*1200 for the HP stuff.[07:18:58] <JonathanThompson> 1600*1600 for the MEMS stuff.[07:19:01] <ormandj> surrounder: not for my purposes, i'm a system pig[07:19:06] * meianoite pets MEMS stuff[07:19:07] <meianoite> ;)[07:19:23] <JonathanThompson> At 60 ppm, too.[07:19:26] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: they might have just taken rights to the memjet tech, then only used a few chips[07:19:39] <JonathanThompson> Could be, though they changed the resolution.[07:19:54] <JonathanThompson> I suspect they might have decided to do that to be compatible with printing resolutions across the line.[07:20:37] <JonathanThompson> surrounder, my okidata printer has as much RAM as this system has main RAM :)[07:20:51] <JonathanThompson> (which the fairly recent video card also has)[07:21:01] <JonathanThompson> Talk about an unbalanced system these days :P[07:21:29] * meianoite suspects memjet and HP are in for a patent fight =P[07:21:39] * JonathanThompson suspects meianoite may be correct[07:21:43] <surrounder> JonathanThompson: hehehe nice[07:22:04] <JonathanThompson> Now I just wish I had the printer maxed out (I can add more) and at least as much in this for main RAM.[07:22:15] <JonathanThompson> IIRC I can go up to 768 megs RAM in the printer.[07:22:30] <JonathanThompson> (it only has 256 right now)[07:24:28] <JonathanThompson> It's fully PCL 6e and PostScript level 3 compatible, and has a USB 2.0 and ethernet interface, and does full duplex printing.[07:24:43] <JonathanThompson> And it even supports EtherTalk nicely :)[07:25:37] <ormandj> oh well, gonna try ubuntu 7 on this laptop[07:25:40] <ormandj> wonder if it'll work[07:25:46] <JonathanThompson> Good luck :)[07:25:55] <JonathanThompson> Laptops are fun for almost any OS to deal with.[07:26:09] <ormandj> wow, can't access tty[07:26:10] <ormandj> :p[07:26:28] <meianoite> JonathanThompson I guess we should try and port Haiku to your printer[07:26:37] <meianoite> and I don't mean the printer DRIVER, but the OS proper ;)[07:26:37] <JonathanThompson> You know....[07:26:50] <JonathanThompson> It may be more powerful than this main system :P[07:27:07] <JonathanThompson> It's supposed to be able to do 24-28 ppm.[07:27:30] <JonathanThompson> It's probably only doing that in ideal test cases, but still, it's no slouch.[07:27:41] <meianoite> ah, so it's like the frame rate of Quake 4 on your system[07:27:43] <meianoite> ;D[07:27:51] <JonathanThompson> Could be :P[07:27:54] <meianoite> 24-28 FPM[07:28:05] <meianoite> ~0.5FPS[07:28:16] * JonathanThompson wonders what the framerate on a dual p3-450 system with 256 megs RAM and PCI GeForce 5500 would be...[07:28:35] <meianoite> around ~0.5FPS, I guess[07:28:44] <meianoite> it will swap like hell[07:29:01] <JonathanThompson> I've not played a modern FPS game in a long time.[07:29:35] <JonathanThompson> I do know this system doesn't have enough RAM to run the nVidia demo program that came with the card.[07:29:37] <meianoite> the most modern FPS I've played is Quake 4[07:29:53] <meianoite> never played Halo[07:29:58] <meianoite> GoW[07:30:08] <meianoite> not even HL2 =P[07:30:20] <JonathanThompson> I've never played any of those :P[07:30:31] <meianoite> never played MoH[07:30:45] <ormandj> wow[07:30:48] <meianoite> some of those are considered classics now[07:30:49] <ormandj> sucks to be you[07:30:54] <ormandj> i own the MoH world tournament[07:30:54] <JonathanThompson> :)[07:30:57] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[07:30:59] <ormandj> own->won[07:31:00] <ormandj> lol[07:31:07] <meianoite> pwned ;)[07:31:10] <JonathanThompson> own==won :)[07:31:15] <ormandj> yeah same diff :p[07:31:39] <_hugo> MoH?[07:31:40] <meianoite> my system is too underpowered to run those well enough[07:31:45] <_hugo> i play chess[07:31:47] <meianoite> medal of honour[07:31:48] <JonathanThompson> My timing/coordination is bad enough I can't realistically hope to win such things, ormandj.[07:32:10] <JonathanThompson> Fortunately, i don't have any desire to spend the time trying :P[07:32:20] <surrounder> shooters are far too quick for me also[07:32:22] <emitrax> good morning[07:32:29] * JonathanThompson pets emitrax[07:32:33] <meianoite> _hugo nowadays even chess games make heeeeavy use of OpenGL[07:32:37] <ormandj> shooters are too slow for me[07:32:57] <_hugo> meianoite: yeah? i have a table though[07:33:09] <JonathanThompson> For many years I've had a game idea in my mind that'd be a different twist on things.[07:33:16] <meianoite> I bet it's nowhere nearly as realistic as those GL games ;)[07:33:20] <_hugo> meianoite: for sure[07:33:26] <JonathanThompson> It'd involve everyone fighting against the clock and each other in certain ways, as well as time-travel.[07:33:54] <meianoite> JonathanThompson I guess that's called Prince of Persia The Two Thrones[07:33:59] <meianoite> except it's not multiplayer =P[07:34:08] <JonathanThompson> Sort of a 4D combination of traversing a maze and penalizing others by making them go back in relative time.[07:34:15] <meianoite> multiplayer PoP would *rule*[07:34:49] <JonathanThompson> I've never played or heard of such a thing, meianoite, but I suspect there are very major differences to what I have in mind.[07:35:02] <meianoite> the main problem with FPS is the computer screen.[07:35:10] <meianoite> VR has been such a failure so far[07:35:15] <meianoite> VR helmets are ridiculous =P[07:35:40] <JonathanThompson> When we have Holodeck reality like in Star Trek: The Next Generation, I suspect it'll finally catch on :P[07:35:54] <meianoite> maybe, maybe, who knows :)[07:36:01] <JonathanThompson> And then the porn games will really go all out.[07:36:28] <meianoite> Matrix-like stunts will still be bound to the personal skill of the player =P[07:36:37] <meianoite> I guess brain plugs are the way to go.[07:36:40] <meianoite> =P[07:36:57] * JonathanThompson wonders how much of "Andromeda" meianoite has been watching[07:37:09] <meianoite> zilch[07:37:12] <pyCube> um.. just eat some mushrooms.. hehe.. its cheaper[07:37:39] *** kr1stof_ has left #haiku[07:39:30] <meianoite> pyCube, MMORPGs?[07:39:38] <meianoite> as in... massive, mushroom-oriented, really psychotic games?[07:40:07] <JonathanThompson> Mega-maniacal online role playing games :P[07:40:19] <meianoite> mine is better. sorry, JonathanThompson[07:40:24] <surrounder> hehe[07:41:23] <JonathanThompson> Hey meianoite, did you see the most recent OS Snooze thing on the scheduler?[07:41:37] <meianoite> not really, no[07:41:47] <meianoite> link?[07:42:04] <meianoite> oh[07:42:07] <meianoite> "OS Snooze"[07:42:10] <meianoite> =P[07:42:25] <meianoite> JonathanThompson yeah, I did, then[07:42:46] <meianoite> and then _hugo dared to say I over-engineer stuff.[07:42:52] <meianoite> so did DaaT[07:43:17] <meianoite> on a related note, I tend to get really creative while taking showers[07:43:46] <meianoite> I devised a *great* improvement to my current sched algo while in shower right before getting back to IRC :)[07:43:49] * JonathanThompson almost is afraid to ask[07:44:08] <meianoite> nah, of course you may ;)[07:44:09] <ormandj> damnit what a pita[07:44:15] <JonathanThompson> Oh, I thought you might be talking aboutr what you were DOING as part of the shower :P[07:44:30] <ormandj> who said shrooms?[07:44:32] <ormandj> gimme gime[07:44:39] * JonathanThompson envisions some unfortunate cat walking by while meianoite has a bright idea that it'd make a very efficient wash cloth[07:44:57] <meianoite> the thing is, with the old design, I always had the possibility of missing a thread and having to roll the RNG all over again[07:45:06] <meianoite> now I *can't* miss a thread, ever[07:45:20] <JonathanThompson> So when will it be implemented? :)[07:45:22] <meianoite> so I'm back to deterministic land ;)[07:45:30] <meianoite> it IS implemented[07:45:34] <JonathanThompson> Oh?[07:45:35] <meianoite> only not ported to Haiku yet[07:46:02] <meianoite> I'm using an userland testbed[07:46:11] <JonathanThompson> Seems reasonable.[07:46:28] <meianoite> and I'm always running a benchmark whenever I modify something to test it's effectiveness[07:46:57] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite: using linux for dev?[07:47:12] <meianoite> right now I'm within 33% of the fastest possible theoretical scheduler[07:47:24] <meianoite> one with zero overhead when choosing threads to schedule[07:47:34] <JonathanThompson> I'm starting to read that article, and it mentions using red-black trees... that's how std::map is implemented, actually.[07:47:54] <meianoite> JonathanThompson IMO that's severe overengineering[07:48:06] <JonathanThompson> What, what the article mentions?[07:48:28] <meianoite> SiCuTDeUx as a matter of fact, yes. but only because I'm developing over SSH, using lovely GNU nano[07:48:35] <meianoite> the code is POSIX portable[07:48:45] <ormandj> nano?[07:48:46] <meianoite> it's been through Mac OS X, Linux, FreeBSD and BeOS[07:48:51] <ormandj> dude.... there's something called VIM[07:48:52] <JonathanThompson> Ah, thus far I've used nano a few times at work lately :)[07:49:08] <SiCuTDeUx> i love nano...[07:49:13] <JonathanThompson> I don't think in the way VIM wants you to.[07:49:22] <meianoite> ormandj true, and as much as I admire Rob Love, VIM sucks.[07:49:31] <SiCuTDeUx> i find.. vim... so... anoying[07:49:31] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: you just haven't spent enough time with it[07:49:41] <surrounder> vim rocks[07:49:43] <ormandj> i can churn out stuff in vim far faster than anybody in nano[07:49:45] <JonathanThompson> That's possible, ormandj, but I can't afford to spend much time with it at work.[07:49:48] <meianoite> VIM is just it's not built for modern computer terminals[07:49:52] <ormandj> omg![07:49:54] <ormandj> yes it is[07:49:58] <JonathanThompson> I've been using kWrite most lately.[07:50:02] <JonathanThompson> nano is quite limited.[07:50:10] <ormandj> vim is like the dvorak of the keyboard world[07:50:15] * SiCuTDeUx uses Kate for php dev.[07:50:15] <ormandj> it's different but if you learn it, it's faster[07:50:19] <JonathanThompson> kWrite isn't the most powerful, either, but it's better than nano.[07:50:32] <surrounder> scite is also nice[07:50:37] <meianoite> and of course I meant Bill Joy, not Robert Love =P[07:50:44] <ormandj> ok, so ubuntu 7.04 can't even boot on this machine[07:50:45] <SiCuTDeUx> lol @ meianoite[07:50:46] <JonathanThompson> nano doesn't do indentation in a reasonably intelligent manner.[07:50:48] <meianoite> I mixed the "sentiments" ;)[07:50:51] <ormandj> and solaris express only comes in dvd :/[07:50:55] <SiCuTDeUx> ormandj: problems?[07:51:02] <meianoite> JonathanThompson eh?[07:51:05] * _hugo licks vim[07:51:11] <ormandj> SiCuTDeUx: yeah, "/bin/sh: can't access ttyl job control turned off (initramfs)[07:51:22] <SiCuTDeUx> oh...[07:51:25] <ormandj> craptastic linux experience, as per usual[07:51:26] <meianoite> the indentation goes to the first non-blank character of your previous line[07:51:33] <meianoite> how can't that be reasonable? o_O[07:51:44] <ormandj> so, what other OS should i try?[07:51:47] <JonathanThompson> I like to be able to format a code according to how I think, not how IT thinks I should have it indented, and I don't want to fight by having to do manual spacing when it doesn't feel like working the way I want.[07:51:54] <surrounder> ormandj: use KISS distros, Ubuntu is a POS[07:52:04] <SiCuTDeUx> ormandj: that looks like an odd error[07:52:05] <ormandj> i hate linux in general[07:52:06] <JonathanThompson> It sags when you try to change indentation, meianoite.[07:52:08] <ormandj> tbh.[07:52:11] <_hugo> so much hate.[07:52:12] * meianoite feels _hugo is about to kick surrounder[07:52:23] <SiCuTDeUx> lol[07:52:24] <meianoite> there.[07:52:25] <surrounder> hehe[07:52:36] <_hugo> he's young and naive.[07:52:52] <ormandj> the same could be said about ubuntu[07:52:53] <ormandj> :p[07:52:53] <surrounder> I'm not a jedi yet :<[07:52:54] <meianoite> JonathanThompson how come? I still don't get what you mean[07:53:08] <meianoite> Jedi level comes only with real UNIX.[07:53:10] <JonathanThompson> Oh well, not worth trying to explain anyway, meianoite :)[07:53:13] <meianoite> and that's *BSD for you ;)[07:53:22] <surrounder> meianoite: used them all, love them[07:53:28] <JonathanThompson> If it works for your purposes, I say have fun.[07:53:42] <_hugo> meianoite: BSD is a real UNIX?[07:53:48] <meianoite> it happens to be, yes[07:53:50] <JonathanThompson> I don't believe there's such a thing as an editor that's perfect for everyone.[07:53:56] <_hugo> meianoite: check your history[07:54:05] <surrounder> JonathanThompson: gvim with clippy[07:54:06] <surrounder> ;)[07:54:17] <meianoite> _hugo, check yours. unless you believe real UNIX is whatever big iron runs[07:54:19] <SiCuTDeUx> lol @ surrounder[07:54:35] <ormandj> somebody said real unix?[07:54:36] <ormandj> # /usr/ucb/whoami[07:54:37] <ormandj> root[07:54:37] <ormandj> # uname -a[07:54:37] <ormandj> SunOS server2 5.10 Generic_125101-04 i86pc i386 i86pc[07:54:37] <ormandj> #[07:54:39] * SiCuTDeUx uses FreeBSD for building firewalls[07:55:02] <ormandj> hm, maybe i can slap solaris on this laptop[07:55:07] * meianoite also admins HP-UX and Digital UNIX stations ;)[07:55:08] <ormandj> but wireless will suck[07:55:18] <surrounder> never had a succesfull solaris install[07:55:21] <surrounder> not even on my sparcs[07:55:23] <ormandj> really?[07:55:24] <meianoite> (yeah, AlphaStations.)[07:55:29] <ormandj> how come? it's super easy[07:55:31] <_hugo> meianoite: Unix -> Bell Labs -> AT&T -> System V etc[07:55:43] <surrounder> ormandj: faulty hardware prolly, linux does run great on it though[07:55:54] <meianoite> ormandj, will you please enlighten _hugo?[07:56:00] <ormandj> surrounder: on a sparc?? :) i could understand on x86 but sparc? :p[07:56:15] <ormandj> meianoite: on real unix vs. non-real? sure ;) one moment[07:56:18] <surrounder> yeah I have no idea whats wrong[07:56:37] <_hugo> meianoite: wtf? :-) BSD was a branch of the original UNIX made in Berkeley. the original UNIX comes from Bell Labs/AT&T[07:56:41] <ormandj> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/explaining-bsd/what-a-real-unix.html[07:56:53] <ormandj> straight from the freebsd handbook[07:56:54] <surrounder> anyways, time for zhe beds, 07:52 here so I might get 2 hours of sleep[07:57:01] <surrounder> nightynight peeps! :)[07:57:06] <ormandj> night bud[07:57:08] <ormandj> sleep well[07:57:11] <surrounder> thanks :)[07:57:16] <meianoite> there, _hugo. educate yourself. ;)[07:57:18] <ormandj> of course :)[07:57:26] <meianoite> 'nite, surrounder[07:57:32] <_hugo> i don't care about whatever dope the freebsd guys smoke. just check the branches and where they come from and where the development was done[07:57:42] <_hugo> ``The BSD operating systems are not clones, but open source derivatives of AT&T's Research UNIX''[07:57:49] <ormandj> _hugo: free/net/open bsd are not considered UNIX[07:57:50] <_hugo> _derivatives_[07:57:54] <ormandj> not at all[07:57:54] <_hugo> ormandj: thank you[07:58:01] <ormandj> you cannot call them UNIX[07:58:10] <meianoite> of course not. that's a trademark[07:58:13] <_hugo> thus BSD is by no means a "real UNIX"[07:58:21] <ormandj> i'm not arguing sides[07:58:40] <ormandj> just posting links :p[07:58:42] <meianoite> _hugo you're splitting hair here[07:59:03] <_hugo> meianoite: you are telling me to educate myself, then point me to ormandj's link, which clearly states what i said :-)[07:59:30] *** absabs has joined #haiku[07:59:40] <meianoite> Solaris happens to be a *derivative* of AT&T Research UNIX as well. so Solaris is not a real UNIX OS? =P[07:59:54] <ormandj> i think you two should not find such an argument necessary :p[08:00:16] <pyCube> real unix is pointless.. real works and lets you do stuff is what matters[08:00:17] <meianoite> ormandj, _hugo holds some grudge against FreeBSD ;)[08:00:19] <ormandj> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Unix_Specification[08:00:22] <_hugo> meianoite: solaris is a derivative of AT&T, its closer to UNIX than BSD[08:00:27] <_hugo> meianoite: i do not[08:00:31] <ormandj> solaris *IS* UNIX[08:00:32] <_hugo> you are just contradicting yourself[08:00:36] * JonathanThompson interjects with a random unrelated comment that C++ exceptions are appropriate when something in a program has gone beyond the point of no return value[08:00:52] <ormandj> SUS compliance is required to be considered UNIX[08:01:09] <pyCube> like "beos", "unix" is more potent as a concept than an implementation[08:01:36] <meianoite> that, and paying TOG.[08:01:39] <_hugo> i really dont care about which of the operating systems is really UNIX or not, im just discussing meianoite's original comment of "BSD is a real UNIX"[08:01:52] <ormandj> BSD[08:01:53] <ormandj> No freely available BSD system has been registered as SUS compliant, for the same reasons as Linux.[08:01:55] <_hugo> anyway, im better off coding :-)[08:02:02] <ormandj> ie: not unix, technically[08:02:09] <ormandj> so end argument :p[08:02:19] <meianoite> they share some DNA ;)[08:02:26] <ormandj> very true[08:02:30] <meianoite> like apes and humans[08:02:30] * JonathanThompson notes the argument has overrun the stack[08:02:31] <pyCube> and lame is not an mp3 encoder.. yet it yield mp3s[08:02:38] <meianoite> but Linux is like a squid, in this regard[08:02:39] <pyCube> yields[08:03:08] <umccullough> damn, are we still talking about this crap?[08:03:10] *** Karina`` has joined #haiku[08:03:15] <ormandj> my friend![08:03:16] <ormandj> lol[08:03:20] <meianoite> hoh, she lives[08:03:22] <ormandj> you walked into fun-time :p[08:03:23] <umccullough> hi ormandj :)[08:03:26] * JonathanThompson hands umccullough a diaper for his pleasure[08:03:34] <umccullough> ormandj, earlier it was linux vs freebsd :P[08:03:38] <umccullough> er, bsd anyway[08:03:45] <pyCube> and i am not a programmer, because i havent been certified as such.. yet i yield code[08:03:48] <ormandj> umccullough: well, you missed my nazi/claymore combination attack :/[08:03:52] * meianoite believes Karina`` won't remember him from BeShare@TCS times[08:03:58] <ormandj> we did hit on VIM vs. the world, though[08:04:04] <umccullough> ormandj, you like the nazi attack vector eh?[08:04:13] <Karina``> probably not lol[08:04:16] <ormandj> umccullough: everything is much cooler if you can involve the nazis[08:04:28] <Karina``> my memory is... bleh[08:04:46] * JonathanThompson notes his brothers refer to "The History Channel" as "The Hitler Channel" because it seems to show more of that than anything else[08:04:57] <meianoite> Karina`` do you have *any* idea of Kancept's whereabouts?[08:05:08] <JonathanThompson> Or, any Kancept of where he is? :)[08:05:24] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: because WW2 is the last great war, hence history channels are going to touch on that topic a bit ;)[08:05:26] <meianoite> I used to like the guy quite a lot. we played EF2000 a few times. he always blasted the hell out of me[08:05:41] <JonathanThompson> That's what friends are for, meianoite :P[08:05:55] <meianoite> no wonder, he's a real pilot[08:05:57] <Karina``> umm he comes in #beos occasionally[08:06:10] <JonathanThompson> IF you can't expect to be blasted by your friends, what can you expect out of life?[08:06:25] <umccullough> kancept used to hang around here a bit...[08:06:26] <ormandj> #beos is still alive? wow[08:06:39] <umccullough> ormandj, yeah... some still hang out there ;)[08:06:51] <meianoite> joy, peace, mutual respect and happiness, JonathanThompson?[08:06:54] <Karina``> saw him about 2 weeks ago... he only comes in like at random times... ussually a month or more apart[08:06:59] <ormandj> ok folks, what OS should i install on this laptop? ubuntu won't start (init problems), and i'd rather not do windows[08:07:14] <Karina``> slackware[08:07:15] <ormandj> i've only got a cd drive, no dvd :/[08:07:15] <JonathanThompson> Joy, peace, mutual respect and mutually-assured-destruction between friends, meianoite :P[08:07:29] <ormandj> actually, i hate linux, so let's just forget that whole family of poopoo :p[08:07:32] <umccullough> ormandj, is this a trick question?[08:07:33] <geist> cd drive only? oh the humanity![08:07:34] <Karina``> kk[08:07:37] <JonathanThompson> If in doubt, look at the US and Russia now :P[08:07:52] <Karina``> so other nix or you want to be away from unix type os's?[08:07:54] <ormandj> geist: i'm spoiled :p[08:08:13] <ormandj> Karina``: unix is my friend, i'd get solaris on here if i could find a cd-rom edition of the developer version (need the newer HW support)[08:08:20] <ormandj> but i'm open to other things too[08:08:28] <ormandj> i'll put haiku eventually when it's usable[08:08:33] <SiCuTDeUx> ormandj: use zeta :P[08:08:34] <meianoite> ormandj there's a solaris image cooker out there[08:08:37] <ormandj> was a freebie laptop[08:08:38] * JonathanThompson hands ormandj his CD copy of QNX[08:08:45] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: already own a copy[08:08:53] <meianoite> I just can't seem to remember where it is[08:08:54] <umccullough> ormandj, what specs?[08:08:55] <ormandj> SiCuTDeUx: i hate zeta, don't you know me from OSNews?[08:08:57] <Karina``> I'd prolly put netbsd on there then[08:09:00] * JonathanThompson hands ormandj his CD copy of MMURTL32[08:09:05] <SiCuTDeUx> ormandj: no...[08:09:12] <SiCuTDeUx> ormandj: i just dont know anyone...[08:09:32] <ormandj> umccullough: pentium m 900mhz, 768megs ram (just noticed a 512 chip is actually in here in addition to the onboard 256), 24x cdrom, 20 gig HD, some integrated video[08:09:35] <Karina``> only downside is netbsd driver support is a little on the light side so you'd need to check if anything you need is missing[08:09:51] <umccullough> ormandj, sounds like R5 might run :D[08:09:54] <ormandj> Karina``: i'd probably go freebsd if i was gonna do a *bsd[08:09:55] <meianoite> ormandj is a Sun supporter, M$ basher and Zeta hater. how come his karma isn't way higher? ;)[08:09:57] <ormandj> umccullough: you think so?[08:10:09] <Karina``> on the upside #netbsd here on freenode has a super nice user community[08:10:12] <ormandj> meianoite: i don't bash ms that much, really :p[08:10:17] <pyCube> in my experience, linux (ubuntu) "just works".. what else could i need?[08:10:18] <meianoite> ah, here's why. ;)[08:10:23] <umccullough> ormandj, i recommend burning a beos max v4 cd and trying ;)[08:10:29] <ormandj> let me give that a shot[08:10:49] <meianoite> I'm so disappointed Max V4 didn't even boot here[08:11:04] <umccullough> meianoite, what specs?[08:11:08] <ormandj> beta 1 is the newest? v4 b 1?[08:11:11] <meianoite> is it possible this has anything to do with me burning it to DVDRW instead of CDR(W)? =P[08:11:15] <umccullough> ormandj, yeah[08:11:30] <umccullough> maybe[08:11:38] <umccullough> i never use RW for os install discs :P[08:11:39] <ormandj> k. it's a zip, i'm assuming inside is an ISO?[08:11:49] <geist> dude, I'm all about rw[08:11:56] <umccullough> ormandj, inside will be floppy images, a BFS image, and a cue[08:11:58] <geist> like, rw is the nectar of the gods[08:12:03] <geist> I'm all writing[08:12:09] <ormandj> umccullough: er, this laptop has no floppy drive, only a PCMCIA cdrom[08:12:10] <geist> and then when i no longer desire the bits[08:12:13] <ormandj> toshiba r100[08:12:15] <geist> i erase it, and write again with new data[08:12:21] <Karina``> discs are so cheap though[08:12:23] <umccullough> ormandj, you use a floppy image for the first track of the cd[08:12:24] <meianoite> umccullough Asus M2N32-SLI Deluxe, Sempron 3000+, 512MB RAM, GF6200 PCIe[08:12:31] <JonathanThompson> Reduce, reuse, recycle, geist :)[08:12:32] <ormandj> geist: bro, i pay 2 cents a cdrom, RW is a waste of time[08:12:33] <geist> and such the same disc is reused for additional purposes[08:12:41] <ormandj> umccullough: ah ok[08:12:43] <meianoite> ormandj, ECOLOGY, PLEASE?[08:12:44] <umccullough> ormandj, comes with instructions, you'll see[08:12:45] <Karina``> rw is ussually scratched before I find a desire to rewrite a disc[08:12:51] <ormandj> meianoite: no thanks[08:12:52] <JonathanThompson> This is the US, meianoite :P[08:12:55] <ormandj> umccullough: sweet[08:12:58] <umccullough> meianoite, SATA?[08:13:01] <meianoite> ah. that explains it.[08:13:09] <ormandj> meianoite: i use used CDROMs for coasters[08:13:12] <meianoite> umccullough, SATA. but I disabled it before trying.[08:13:23] <geist> by erasing the old data, I feel like a destroyer of worlds[08:13:31] <geist> but then i write new data to the same disc[08:13:32] <JonathanThompson> They also make good body armor when put together correctly, ormandj :)[08:13:40] <ormandj> geist: you interested in the new fantastic four? they'll have galactus in it[08:13:44] <geist> and thus i create from the void a whole new universe[08:13:47] <geist> UNICRON![08:13:50] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: they make cool party tricks in the microwave too[08:13:51] <umccullough> meianoite, seems possibly too modern for R5 to cope ;)[08:13:53] <meianoite> JonathanThompson too thin a gold layer.[08:13:59] <geist> except I'm not a floating dead head in space[08:14:01] <JonathanThompson> I've put CD's in microwaves before :)[08:14:23] * meianoite suspects this is a reference to 2001[08:14:29] <JonathanThompson> meianoite, gold is a lousy protector for armor, but CD's are made of the same stuff bullet-proof windows are, just very thin :)[08:14:35] <meianoite> either that or HGTTG[08:14:38] *** [Nies] has joined #haiku[08:14:43] <umccullough> polycarbonate?[08:14:46] <JonathanThompson> Yup.[08:14:53] <geist> Someone hits giant spider for 32 damange[08:14:54] <meianoite> CDs are NOT polycarbonate[08:14:58] <meianoite> (are they?!)[08:15:01] * JonathanThompson laughs at meianoite[08:15:04] <umccullough> i don't think they are actually[08:15:12] <JonathanThompson> I worked 4 YEARS at a CD production plant.[08:15:13] *** pyCube2 has joined #haiku[08:15:16] <umccullough> they shatter way to easily to be polycarbonate[08:15:16] <JonathanThompson> They are.[08:15:23] <ormandj> RWs suck ass, they last half a year here in hawaii[08:15:25] * meianoite seconds umccullough[08:15:26] <umccullough> maybe the top layer is...[08:15:31] <ormandj> the Rs last much longer[08:15:44] <umccullough> i've noticed CDs bend one direction and shatter the other :P[08:15:47] <JonathanThompson> Not all polycarbonate is created equal and processed for durability.[08:15:48] <ormandj> i get that foil "fungus" on RWs[08:16:03] <geist> i like to have sexual relations with RWs[08:16:08] <ormandj> figures :p[08:16:09] <meianoite> ormandj funny, I got those on R's[08:16:19] * JonathanThompson wonders about geist, if he's totally cracked, or only has one[08:16:24] <geist> who my baby daddy?[08:16:29] <ormandj> meianoite: i get it on Rs too, but it takes longer. Hawaii == accelerated decay of everything, 100% humidity and salt air[08:16:30] <geist> REWRITABLE MEDIA[08:16:32] <SiCuTDeUx> lol[08:16:39] <meianoite> April 23 is definitely the day #haiku turned into #pornfest[08:16:51] <meianoite> first there was DaaT[08:16:52] <ormandj> how was everybody's 420, btw?[08:16:53] <meianoite> then JonathanThompson[08:16:54] <umccullough> #pr0nfest?[08:16:57] <meianoite> now geist[08:17:08] <SiCuTDeUx> OMG[08:17:10] <JonathanThompson> I only mentioned it in passing :)[08:17:11] <geist> YOU LIE I ONLY TALK ABOUT THE TRUTH[08:17:18] <ormandj> lack of sex?[08:17:23] <JonathanThompson> What sex?[08:17:26] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite: dont make me remember the comment of DaaT about golden shower...[08:17:29] <SiCuTDeUx> OMG OMG[08:17:30] <geist> WHY YOU GOTTA BE LIKE THAT[08:17:35] <ormandj> jesus told me too[08:17:39] * SiCuTDeUx cant sleep today for sure..[08:17:40] <ormandj> too->to[08:17:52] <meianoite> SiCuTDeUx not to mention his appreciation for the smell of wet sheep[08:17:57] <ormandj> er[08:18:01] <ormandj> that's a bit strange[08:18:02] <meianoite> and how that very smell makes him wet =P[08:18:03] <SiCuTDeUx> OMG...[08:18:04] * JonathanThompson hopes SiCuTDeUx has dreams of kittens having to use the litter box, then waking up suddenly and finding HE has to use the litter box[08:18:04] <ormandj> is he from germany?[08:18:06] <umccullough> ormandj, what?[08:18:07] <geist> so, did berlios ever get their shit together? probably not,s eeing as i haven't gotten any mails about commits[08:18:22] * umccullough checks berlios.de[08:18:25] <SiCuTDeUx> JonathanThompson:¬¬[08:18:32] <ormandj> oh yeah, and where is bernd's "statement"? i've been waiting weeks for it[08:18:37] * JonathanThompson had such a dream yesterday morning[08:18:37] <umccullough> still down![08:18:52] <geist> berlios.de has soiled it's pants[08:18:56] <umccullough> ormandj, check beosnews.com - they have a nice jab[08:18:59] * JonathanThompson thinks Bernd has found the biggest, most luxurious rock he could crawl beneath[08:19:02] <ormandj> going...[08:19:08] <SiCuTDeUx> lol, im still waiting for that too ormandj[08:19:11] <meianoite> I believe the one who's going to rejoice the most regarding bernd being screwed up is Marcus[08:19:19] <ormandj> even more than me?[08:19:27] <meianoite> ormandj I suspect so[08:19:30] <ormandj> wow[08:19:36] <SiCuTDeUx> ormandj: why you?[08:19:37] <ormandj> marcus must really *hate* bernd[08:19:45] <SiCuTDeUx> why?[08:19:46] <ormandj> because he's at the top of my shit-list for sure[08:19:47] <JonathanThompson> meianoite, look at the paragraph "Physical Details" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_disc[08:19:53] <meianoite> have you ever coded for bernd, ormandj?[08:19:56] <ormandj> SiCuTDeUx: go check osnews.com, and search for me[08:19:57] <umccullough> ormandj, you never read marcus' blog?[08:20:01] <ormandj> meianoite: no, but had some friends[08:20:03] <ormandj> umccullough: nope[08:20:09] <geist> berlios has besmirched my honor[08:20:13] <ormandj> meianoite: i am smart enough to never deal with such idiots[08:20:16] *** Nies_ has quit IRC[08:20:16] <meianoite> JonathanThompson that only made me completely lose respect for polycarbonate[08:20:16] <umccullough> ormandj, hang on a sec...[08:20:17] <ormandj> (bernd)[08:20:19] <ormandj> ok umccullough[08:20:28] <JonathanThompson> At one point Bernd was trying to convince me to distribute Project X with Zeta.[08:20:31] * umccullough is looking for the link[08:20:43] <ormandj> wow, just saw the beosnews thing, that's awesome[08:20:50] <ormandj> no wonder all the zeta stories stopped on osnews[08:21:00] <JonathanThompson> Polycarbonate works for bulletproofing when thicker because it is more flexible than glass, so it doesn't shatter as readily, meianoite.[08:21:01] <ormandj> thom must have cried until he passed out from dehydration[08:21:18] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: honestly, cd's are really damn shatter proof too, considering the thickness[08:21:28] <ormandj> you can bend the heck out of them without them fracturing[08:21:36] <JonathanThompson> Yes, you need to work at it, if they're produced correctly.[08:21:58] <meianoite> there.[08:22:04] <umccullough> ormandj, http://haikudev.blogspot.com/[08:22:06] * meianoite disposes of the Kevlar vest[08:22:19] <JonathanThompson> meianoite, I was assigned one day to clean out a vat for polycarbonate at that plant: I distinctly remember that.[08:22:20] * meianoite sets to build a vest made of CD shavings[08:22:40] <umccullough> ormandj, scroll down to his post from 8/19/2005[08:22:53] <ormandj> uhm, i unzipped that beosmax thing, the howto doesn't cover burning from windows[08:23:00] <ormandj> and there's a gazillion isos/images/etc[08:23:27] <umccullough> ormandj, burning from windows should be easy if you have nero[08:23:42] <umccullough> just use "burn image" option from nero and select the .cue[08:23:49] <ormandj> k[08:23:53] <umccullough> ormandj, there are good instructions on the beosmax site[08:24:01] <umccullough> finding the right floppy image might be a challenge ;)[08:24:12] <umccullough> you probably don't need the ram limiting one[08:24:16] <umccullough> and you don't need the AMD one[08:24:51] <umccullough> ormandj, this is why marcus hates bernd: http://haikudev.blogspot.com/2005/08/threatening-mail-by-yellowtab.html[08:24:57] <meianoite> is the AMD patch required to run on Sempron processors?[08:25:13] <meianoite> I tried it with the patch and it reboots. perhaps I should try it without the damn patch[08:25:28] <ormandj> i'm reading it umccullough[08:25:39] <meianoite> booting safe mode was 100% not helpful[08:25:40] <umccullough> meianoite, very possibly, yes[08:25:50] <meianoite> hangs at some sentence about IDE[08:26:07] <umccullough> meianoite, there are also ide replacement boot images :P[08:26:13] <meianoite> tried those.[08:26:22] <umccullough> heh, lots of combinations... :P[08:26:41] <JonathanThompson> BeOS IDIC :)[08:26:46] <umccullough> http://mmadia.zelect.org/ for image selection[08:26:55] <meianoite> yeah, and I don't really want to try all the possibilities![08:27:04] <meianoite> and I meant that as in "factorial of possibilities"[08:27:07] <ormandj> wow[08:27:10] <ormandj> that's crazy umccullough[08:27:19] <ormandj> he probably does hate bernd more than me, lol[08:27:23] <umccullough> ormandj, he is dr_evil here in #haiku during the day[08:27:24] <JonathanThompson> Consider that more reason to get Haiku going ASAP, meianoite :)[08:27:31] <meianoite> so you see ormandj, I had a point there :)[08:27:32] <ormandj> i'll have to pop by sometime[08:27:35] <JonathanThompson> And something worse at night? :)[08:27:50] <umccullough> he may not necessarily want to talk about it actually....[08:27:57] <ormandj> not going to bring that up[08:28:05] <umccullough> whenever the topic comes up, he gets quite grumpy ;)[08:28:06] <ormandj> just wanna say hello, i'm acquainted with his work[08:28:29] * JonathanThompson believes he's using his RealTek 8169 driver right now...[08:29:07] <ormandj> damn, if beos runs on this laptop, that'll be awesome. i haven't run beos since r5[08:29:09] <umccullough> ormandj, you can consult the zelect.org link above if you wanna see all the floppy/cd boot options :D[08:29:12] <ormandj> and i've missed it ;)[08:29:53] <ormandj> what was the ram limit on r5, btw? anybody know offhand?[08:30:07] <meianoite> I'm genuinely disgusted by the possibility that I might be forced to resort to Zeta to boot this computer =P[08:30:16] <ormandj> meianoite: don't do it![08:30:20] <umccullough> ormandj, it's a bootloader hack[08:30:23] <JonathanThompson> Don't fall over to the Dark Side :)[08:30:40] <umccullough> it artificially reports wrong amount of RAM so that BeOS doesn't die[08:30:41] <meianoite> I find Linux slightly less disgusting[08:30:58] <ormandj> ok, got the beos boot screen[08:31:01] <umccullough> ormandj, due to assumptions in the kernel, BeOS can't handle more than 1gb RAM[08:31:04] <meianoite> know what? I'm probably going to run FreeBSD and the linuxolator[08:31:04] <ormandj> seems to be halfway working so far :p[08:31:09] <ormandj> damn[08:31:12] <ormandj> kernel PANIC[08:31:28] * JonathanThompson gives ormandj's kernel some anti-anxiety meds[08:31:36] <ormandj> says couldn't find beos volume to boot from, weird[08:31:39] <umccullough> ormandj, can't find boot partition?[08:31:40] <ormandj> since i booted from the cd lol[08:31:43] <umccullough> yeah...[08:31:46] <ormandj> gotta hit space?[08:31:55] <Anxiety> beep[08:31:58] <meianoite> hey, be thankful you got a PANIC. my machine reboots as soon as it attempts to lite the 2nd bootloader icon (peripherals)[08:32:02] <umccullough> you burned as a 2-track disc right?[08:32:05] <ormandj> yes[08:32:10] <ormandj> verified w/ nero too[08:32:35] <umccullough> i had a problem with one of my laptop CD drives where it refuses to find the second track[08:32:43] <ormandj> that sucks[08:32:44] <umccullough> same disc works on my desktop boxes[08:32:51] <umccullough> but try the ide replacement driver[08:32:54] <ormandj> it's probably this crappy drive[08:33:02] <ormandj> because it's on a PCMCIA card[08:33:13] <umccullough> oh..yeah that prolly won't work[08:33:28] <ormandj> man, this laptop sucks for everything[08:33:29] <umccullough> damn, what 900mhz laptop doesn't come with a built-in CD drive?[08:33:32] <ormandj> that's probably why ubuntu won't work[08:33:38] <ormandj> toshiba r100, it's an ultra-portable[08:33:46] <umccullough> what a POS[08:33:48] <ormandj> too small for a built in cdrom[08:33:57] <umccullough> ultra portable WINDOWS-ONLY ...[08:34:21] <umccullough> take the HD out of it and use another machine to install on it ;)[08:34:31] <ormandj> apparently. although i would assume pcmcia attached cds to look like normal cdroms[08:34:34] <umccullough> assuming you have an adapter[08:34:46] <ormandj> er, yeah, i don't have any other machine that can use a 1.8" drive[08:34:47] <ormandj> :p[08:34:52] <SiCuTDeUx> i dont understand why ormandj hates bernd...[08:34:54] <ormandj> it's not even a normal 2.5" laptop drive[08:34:59] <SiCuTDeUx> ormandj: xplain...[08:34:59] <umccullough> ormandj, i suspect problems arise when kernel takes off and ignores BIOS[08:35:23] <ormandj> SiCuTDeUx: because i've always known him to be the slime/scum/dirtbag/lotsofbadwordshere that he is, and he's screwed over a couple of my friends during their employment at yT[08:35:42] <SiCuTDeUx> ok...[08:35:44] <ormandj> umccullough: probably. i'll go check bios options to see what i might be able to tweak[08:36:09] *** mazon is now known as Mazon[08:36:33] <meianoite> Windows never ceases to amaze me[08:36:45] <meianoite> it's as fragile as a wet piece of paper[08:36:56] <meianoite> but OTOH it just works on this computer[08:37:01] <meianoite> no drivers required[08:37:06] <meianoite> not even for SATA[08:37:15] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[08:37:17] <ormandj> umccullough: what do you think about a usb cdrom, would it work?[08:37:28] <umccullough> meianoite, everyone provides microsoft with their hardware support by default ;)[08:37:33] <meianoite> ormandj USB will definitely NOT work[08:37:42] <umccullough> ormandj, not sure...R5 didn't have strong USB support either :P[08:38:05] <umccullough> ormandj, ultimately you gotta have something that R5 will recognize as a bootable drive at boot time[08:38:07] <meianoite> USB mass storage wasn't standardized until USB2[08:38:22] <meianoite> and R5 tend to like only Intel chipsets[08:38:56] *** Anxiety has quit IRC[08:39:17] <ormandj> damn, so close too[08:41:24] <umccullough> ormandj, if it makes you feel better, the machine I had a problem with was a toshiba also ;)[08:41:32] <ormandj> i guess there is no pxe boot for beos lol[08:41:50] <umccullough> mm... no but Haiku may have one eventually :D[08:41:54] <ormandj> eheh[08:41:59] <umccullough> something that marcus worked on also ;)[08:42:06] <ormandj> won't be an issue if haiku will be able to use this cdrom[08:42:15] <umccullough> of course haiku will probably support usb boot[08:42:34] <umccullough> could conceivable even run it off a USB flash drive ;)[08:42:45] <ormandj> that'd be awesome, a flash drive installer[08:43:03] <kokito> SiCuTDeUx, tu nunca duermes? :P[08:43:11] <umccullough> it's been discussed a lot - currently not possible though[08:43:16] <SiCuTDeUx> kokito: muy poco :P[08:43:38] <kokito> SiCuTDeUx, eso es malo para la salud :P[08:43:50] <umccullough> ormandj, not sure what Haiku's PCMCIA implementation is like yet -- there's something in the repo at least[08:44:00] <ormandj> bleh, i hate pcmcia anyways[08:44:02] <ormandj> give me usb boot[08:44:03] <ormandj> :p[08:44:29] <umccullough> does that thing even have a docking station?[08:44:44] <meianoite> aaaaaaaaaaaaw please[08:44:51] <meianoite> cut that docking station crap[08:44:58] <ormandj> nope[08:45:03] <ormandj> no docking station[08:45:06] *** emitrax has quit IRC[08:45:07] <meianoite> the mere invention of docking stations insult me =P[08:45:08] <umccullough> meianoite, considering it has no built-in drives...[08:45:13] <ormandj> i just got the laptop, a pcmcia cdrom, and a power adapter[08:45:22] <meianoite> USB, for divinity's sake![08:45:26] <meianoite> either that or firewire[08:45:35] <umccullough> docking stations are pretty much the only reasonable way to get PCI devices into a portable device ;)[08:46:05] <ormandj> it has a port for a docking station[08:46:06] <meianoite> you mean severely lacking portable devices[08:46:09] <ormandj> but i'm not buying stuff for this[08:46:24] <umccullough> meianoite, not all OSes support USB or firewire (case in point)[08:46:35] <meianoite> ones that should have been built to *not* need external PCI devices at all[08:46:40] <umccullough> ormandj, guess you're stuck with... whatever works :D[08:46:55] <ormandj> damn, a free laptop i can't even use[08:46:55] <ormandj> rofl[08:46:58] <meianoite> I'd never run an OS that won't support USB or Firewire on a portable computer, anyway[08:47:03] <umccullough> feel free to ship it my way ;)[08:47:55] <ormandj> grrrrrrrr[08:48:02] <geist> grrrrrrr back to you[08:48:09] <ormandj> :([08:48:14] * SiCuTDeUx accepts charity[08:48:18] <umccullough> he does't bite[08:48:42] *** Thom_Holwerda has joined #haiku[08:48:46] <ormandj> aha[08:48:51] <umccullough> lol[08:48:55] <meianoite> careful now, ormandj ;)[08:48:56] <ormandj> my favorite person in the whole wide world![08:49:18] <kokito> hey Thom_Holwerda[08:49:25] <Thom_Holwerda> i assume you aint talking abotu me ormandj ;)[08:49:26] <Thom_Holwerda> hi[08:49:27] <ormandj> so, meianoite, back to nazis and claymores..... :p[08:49:28] * umccullough suspects the channel conversation will not degrade even further[08:49:39] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: dont underestimate me[08:49:40] <umccullough> *now[08:49:41] <ormandj> umccullough: na, i am civilized today[08:49:45] <ormandj> at least, this moment[08:50:01] <ormandj> anyways thom is fine, i just disagree with him a lot, i don't hate him :p[08:50:04] <meianoite> JonathanThompson SEE? now even Thom_Holwerda is saying "ain't"[08:50:11] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, a misplaced 't' changed the whole meaning of that statement :D[08:50:39] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: ive been saying aint for a long time :)[08:50:40] <JonathanThompson> That doesn't mean much, meianoite :P[08:50:43] <Thom_Holwerda> been to texas once[08:50:48] <Thom_Holwerda> i blame texas for that[08:51:12] <ormandj> i lived there for some years and don't say ain't[08:51:13] <meianoite> one thing is for sure. I'll *never* reply comments by that Kroc guy *ever* again[08:51:20] <JonathanThompson> You didn't have to take it home with you, Thom_Holwerda, so that's not fair :)[08:51:22] <ormandj> meianoite: why? i must have missed that one[08:51:51] <meianoite> ormandj for no good reason. only that he teased me, I replied, and dilluted my average comments rate because of that.[08:51:52] <umccullough> meianoite, discussions with Kroc tend to ... be pointless[08:51:56] <meianoite> no one bothered to mod me up =P[08:52:10] <ormandj> meianoite: i didn't see the thread, or i would have made you +5 :p[08:52:10] <meianoite> despite the fact I was being completely reasonable[08:52:15] <umccullough> meianoite, i dare you to post comments complaining about the mod system :D[08:52:15] <meianoite> and he was a smart ass[08:52:24] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: everybody thinks he is completely reasonable :)[08:52:31] <JonathanThompson> At least he's self-consistent, meianoite :P[08:52:44] <Thom_Holwerda> except for myself, of course[08:52:47] <Thom_Holwerda> because im not[08:52:54] <JonathanThompson> There are a few other "know-it-alls" as well.[08:53:05] <meianoite> Thom_Holwerda, JonathanThompson, could be, but would he please pick on someone else?[08:53:15] <JonathanThompson> You're easy, meianoite :)[08:53:22] <umccullough> lol[08:53:23] <ormandj> where is this thread? i will go make him cry as a baby :p[08:53:30] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: whats your username on osn?[08:53:41] <umccullough> same name[08:53:46] <Thom_Holwerda> oh[08:53:50] <meianoite> he couldn't possibly expect to quote Penny Arcade and pick on me at the same time and have me NOT say something on my defence[08:53:52] <meianoite> *se[08:54:23] <JonathanThompson> IIRC I think Cloudy is another one of those that's a real barrel of fun.[08:54:40] <Thom_Holwerda> i like the oss guys and the apple guys[08:54:46] <Thom_Holwerda> they are fun to be in a discussion with[08:54:51] <JonathanThompson> I remember he once attempted to explain that the BeOS GUI was so responsive because of special BeOS scheduler differences :P[08:54:52] <ormandj> the oss guys are nuts[08:54:55] <ormandj> even i agree on that[08:55:16] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, what ever happened to notparker?[08:55:17] <meianoite> I tend to like the FreeBSD and Apple guys[08:55:18] <JonathanThompson> He was pulling stuff out of his mule, and the mule was kicking up a lot of fuss.[08:55:29] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: banned[08:55:30] <meianoite> liking the BeOS guys is a given, obviously[08:55:35] <Thom_Holwerda> wasnt entertaining anymore[08:55:42] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, heh, doesn't surprise me ;)[08:55:45] <meianoite> ah, that's what happened to the guy[08:55:48] <meianoite> banned the whole ISP?[08:55:53] <JonathanThompson> I don't recall seeing cloudy post lately.[08:55:53] <ormandj> where's shamen been hiding? i rarely see him around since i last destroyed him[08:55:54] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: no[08:56:05] <Thom_Holwerda> shaman comes up every now and then[08:56:07] <meianoite> because some creep showed up the other day and his MO resembled notparker's quite a lot[08:56:10] <Thom_Holwerda> always the same rethoric[08:56:21] <ormandj> figures[08:56:50] <umccullough> there are a few microsoft fanboi's that all basically sound the same...[08:57:03] <meianoite> btw Thom_Holwerda, OSNews V4 looks like crap. I hope there are better skins to use =P[08:57:18] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: we're working on it[08:57:19] <Thom_Holwerda> well[08:57:21] <Thom_Holwerda> adam is[08:57:22] <umccullough> ormandj, what bios rev on that lappy?[08:57:25] <meianoite> umccullough those are either VB "developers" or tech support types who make a living out of it[08:57:25] <Thom_Holwerda> i dont do that stuff[08:57:28] <JonathanThompson> Tell Thom_Holwerda what you REALLY think, meianoite, don't be shy :P[08:57:29] <ormandj> umccullough: i just updated it to 1.60[08:57:34] <umccullough> ok[08:57:54] <meianoite> JonathanThompson other than V4 looks like a flaming piece of cow manure?[08:58:00] <JonathanThompson> :)[08:58:06] <meianoite> how can I possibly be more explicit? ;)[08:58:09] <JonathanThompson> At least it can be used to warm hearts :)[08:58:20] <meianoite> only DaaT's[08:58:23] <ormandj> i think v4 is universally panned[08:58:26] <JonathanThompson> Tell exactly why it looks like flaming cow manure, not just a generalized attack :P[08:58:27] <meianoite> but that would be sheep manure[08:58:36] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: you sound like adam :p[08:58:44] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: there's somethig completely new coming up[08:58:45] <JonathanThompson> Adam? As in Kancept?[08:58:46] <meianoite> the colours even resemble those of cow manure internals[08:58:50] <Thom_Holwerda> ormandj: doesnt mean he is right[08:58:53] <Thom_Holwerda> he is not right*[08:59:01] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: as in the guy who did v4[08:59:06] <JonathanThompson> Oh.[08:59:09] <ormandj> who is obviously a programmer and not a designer :p[08:59:15] <JonathanThompson> I've never seen the V4 mutation myself.[08:59:24] <ormandj> http://www4.osnews.com[08:59:28] <pyCube> http://pycube.homelinux.org:8080/a_tree.jpg[08:59:29] <Thom_Holwerda> ormandj: v4 can be completely changed from top to bottom via css alone[08:59:30] <ormandj> it's not as bad anymore as it first was[08:59:30] <meianoite> JonathanThompson just go and see it.[08:59:42] <meianoite> then you'll see where the manure talk is coming from[08:59:43] <ormandj> Thom_Holwerda: i know, adam brought that up when i first discussed it with him[08:59:55] <Thom_Holwerda> code-wise, v4 is fcuking brilliant[08:59:56] *** slaine_ has joined #haiku[08:59:59] <ormandj> might be[09:00:01] <ormandj> although[09:00:04] <ormandj> he still didn't fix the login bug[09:00:09] <JonathanThompson> Unless those colors are changeable, I could see that causing problems for those with color perception issues.[09:00:17] <ormandj> hit reply while not logged in[09:00:20] <ormandj> it asks for uname/pass[09:00:21] <ormandj> put it in[09:00:25] <ormandj> it asks for uname/pass again[09:00:29] <ormandj> and doesn't direct you back to article reply[09:00:38] <Thom_Holwerda> ormandj: didnt he already fix that?[09:00:43] <ormandj> nope[09:00:47] <Thom_Holwerda> i remember someoen asking that on the crew list, vaguely[09:00:54] <ormandj> yeah, i sent it in PM[09:00:58] <ormandj> to adam too[09:01:13] <Thom_Holwerda> adam at osnews dot com[09:01:21] <ormandj> i already sent it to him[09:01:25] <Thom_Holwerda> ah[09:01:26] <Thom_Holwerda> weird[09:01:26] <ormandj> confirmed read receipt[09:01:30] <JonathanThompson> There are definitely far worse discussion forum presentations I've seen.[09:01:31] <ormandj> long time ago[09:01:38] <Thom_Holwerda> he is usually very fast with these thngs[09:01:45] <ormandj> yeah i know, no clue why the holdup[09:02:29] <JonathanThompson> Thom_Holwerda, I'm not the least bit color-perception impaired, but I have a distinct impression from working with people that are that those colors may be a very bad thing.[09:02:33] *** ChrisHJW has quit IRC[09:02:49] <meianoite> osnews v4 is looking too much like ars technica, only with a horrid color scheme and much less elegant in general[09:03:02] <meianoite> can't comment on the backend code, though.[09:03:17] <Thom_Holwerda> JonathanThompson: we have various themes with differen colours ready when v4 goes final[09:03:23] <JonathanThompson> Ah.[09:03:30] <JonathanThompson> Have you got color-blind people to test against?[09:03:31] <ormandj> Thom_Holwerda: the default theme needs to be more accessible though[09:03:46] <Thom_Holwerda> ormandj: thats being worked on[09:03:58] <ormandj> right on, i'm patiently waiting ;)[09:04:05] <Thom_Holwerda> havent even seen the result myself, adam's been working with a designer[09:04:10] <Thom_Holwerda> a guy i knew from the skyos days[09:04:14] <ormandj> GOOD :)[09:04:15] *** avkig has quit IRC[09:04:29] <meianoite> I've seen a site once. it re-rendered sites and emulates how a colour blind person would see it[09:04:34] <meianoite> *awesome* stuff.[09:04:37] * JonathanThompson suggests for accessibility you can't go wrong with black-white[09:04:44] * SiCuTDeUx esta away: Ausente por ahora.[09:04:45] *** SiCuTDeUx is now known as SiCuTDeUx_Zz[09:05:01] <Thom_Holwerda> if that doesnt work out, i want the PixelFactory and especially David Lanham to do osnews v4's design :D[09:05:08] <JonathanThompson> It may not be pretty, but if done correctly, anyone can read it on any device.[09:05:21] <kokito> hey Thom_Holwerda, what's up with the SkyOS website? can't seem to be able to connect for the last few weeks.[09:05:26][09:05:29] <ormandj> http://colorfilter.wickline.org/[09:05:32] * JonathanThompson pets kokito in welcome[09:05:40] <kokito> hey JonathanThompson[09:05:42] *** avkig has joined #haiku[09:05:45] <Thom_Holwerda> kokito: thats because their website is crap[09:05:58] <Thom_Holwerda> there has been a problem with dns for almost a year now[09:06:16] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: copied it from kerneltrap[09:06:17] <meianoite> ormandj not that site, but thanks anyway :)[09:06:18] <Thom_Holwerda> let me fix it[09:06:23] <kokito> hmmm... I see. was able to see it until not long ago.[09:06:36] <ormandj> meianoite: that site works[09:06:43] <ormandj> it does exactly what you mentioned[09:06:52] <ormandj> whether or not it's the exact site you were referring to is moot[09:06:57] <umccullough> kokito, skyos.org domain isn't even in Robert's control![09:07:09] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: correct.[09:07:22] <kokito> ah, interesting...[09:07:24] <meianoite> I actually happen to like the Protan version better ;)[09:07:32] <ormandj> yeah, me too[09:07:32] <ormandj> :p[09:07:33] <umccullough> the guy who owns it sort of disappeared[09:07:49] <kokito> umccullough, can you access skyos.org?[09:07:59] <umccullough> kokito, you must use www.skyos.org[09:08:10] <umccullough> without www it goes to the wrong ip[09:08:14] <meianoite> Deutan version is *very* Barbie-like[09:08:15] <kokito> aha![09:08:26] <umccullough> kokito, it's been a longstanding problem :/[09:08:26] <Thom_Holwerda> www. doesnt work either here[09:08:31] <umccullough> works here...[09:08:40] <pyCube> ya know what would be kinda neat? a bfs backend for axiom[09:08:50] <umccullough> latest update is from 1/15/2007 though[09:08:50] <kokito> umccullough, I guess SkyOS could not have Waldemar as a webmaster then? :P[09:08:53] * pyCube thinks outloud[09:08:56] * JonathanThompson doesn't know for certain yet what Project X's color scheme will be, other than the fact that the first startup will have it in black and white.[09:09:03] <umccullough> kokito, nice one ;)[09:09:51] <JonathanThompson> Perhaps shades of grey, but the startup (other than perhaps the splash screen) will be accessible color-wise to everyone, if not the most attractive.[09:10:40] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, what ip does www.skyos.org resolve to for you?[09:10:44] <umccullough> should be 85.214.66.177[09:10:52] <umccullough> if not, add a hosts entry[09:11:04] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: i know, but im not going to add a hosts entry each time im on a new installation[09:11:17] <Thom_Holwerda> and even WITH the hosts hack enabled[09:11:25] <Thom_Holwerda> i cant go to the website on my vista laptop[09:11:32] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, i know - mostly just curious if that was the problem ;)[09:11:38] <Thom_Holwerda> it used to be able to[09:11:41] <Thom_Holwerda> but not anymore[09:11:51] <umccullough> it resolves correctly here -- let me make sure i don't have it hacked in hosts[09:12:06] <Thom_Holwerda> http://85.214.66.177/[09:12:10] <kokito> Thom_Holwerda & umccullough: I can see the site using www as suggested[09:12:11] <Thom_Holwerda> heh[09:12:46] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, yeah, ip takes you to the server, but without the hostname in the http get, it doesn't know where to go :D[09:12:51] <ormandj> skyos has always been jacked up for me[09:13:00] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: just playing :D[09:13:06] <ormandj> i have no idea why they can't get a simple dns/www setup going[09:13:13] <Thom_Holwerda> ormandj: it used to be a really nice group of people[09:13:18] <Thom_Holwerda> but somewhere along the way[09:13:24] <umccullough> ormandj, because they don't have any control over the domain registration[09:13:25] <Thom_Holwerda> it went bonkers[09:13:37] <ormandj> umccullough: what happened there?[09:13:44] <umccullough> the guy who registered the domain is out of touch now[09:13:45] <ormandj> and why didn't they just buy a new domain?[09:13:57] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: i used to know that guy's name[09:14:08] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, same here -- started with 'i' i think[09:14:11] <Thom_Holwerda> (been into the skyos community since the v2 days)[09:14:15] <umccullough> probably look it up with a whois[09:14:18] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: yeah[09:14:29] <meianoite> I'm off to bed[09:14:35] <umccullough> i'm a beta member...but i haven't touched it in a while[09:14:43] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: same here[09:14:46] <umccullough> :)[09:14:58] <meianoite> g'nite, JonathanThompson, umccullough, ormandj, geist, Thom_Holwerda[09:15:03] <meianoite> love you all :)[09:15:04] <Thom_Holwerda> ttyl[09:15:07] <umccullough> 'night meianoite[09:15:18] <JonathanThompson> Bye meianoite[09:15:18] *** meianoite has quit IRC[09:15:45] <_hugo> im sticky[09:15:57] * JonathanThompson doesn't want to know what's meant by that[09:15:59] <ormandj> i bet[09:16:03] <Thom_Holwerda> o...k[09:16:16] <umccullough> _hugo, from earlier?[09:16:23] <_hugo> eheh[09:16:26] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[09:16:37] <_hugo> its hot, and after 14h of coding, i get sticky. need to take a bath[09:16:40] * JonathanThompson lobs a sticky notice at Ingenu in welcome[09:16:43] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[09:16:52] <umccullough> crap... after midnight now[09:17:03] <_hugo> 8am umccullough[09:17:08] <_hugo> beautiful morning[09:17:12] <JonathanThompson> It's all relative, _hugo[09:17:12] <umccullough> _hugo, you're nuts :)[09:17:35] <_hugo> im hungry[09:17:40] <umccullough> i hope when berlios comes back you're gonna check in a completed IPv6 implementation ;)[09:17:48] <JonathanThompson> Without people that are considered nuts, technology wouldn't have advanced nearly as far as it has as fast as it has, umccullough :)[09:17:58] <_hugo> umccullough: oh, no. been working on a slab allocator[09:18:10] <umccullough> _hugo, cool![09:18:19] <umccullough> only for the netstack?[09:18:30] * JonathanThompson wonders if undertakers have an interest in a good slab allocator...[09:18:36] <_hugo> i was planing as such, but sent the code to open-beos-kernel-devel for review[09:18:58] <umccullough> i think that was on axel's list...[09:19:10] <_hugo> yep[09:19:11] <umccullough> of things to do...[09:19:20] <umccullough> Thom_Holwerda, Indra Gunawan[09:19:32] <Thom_Holwerda> umccullough: ah yes[09:19:41] <Thom_Holwerda> iranian, i believe[09:20:11] <umccullough> country id: ID[09:20:15] <umccullough> Bandung[09:20:26] <Thom_Holwerda> oh is that india?[09:20:46] <umccullough> if anyone wants to call him and complain ;)[09:21:03] <umccullough> but anyway..that's all on the whois page[09:21:13] <geist> fuck this flute shit, I'm going to go write a constitution[09:21:29] <umccullough> geist, can I sign it?[09:21:40] * geist attempts to get the ol pegasos box working again[09:21:46] <umccullough> ooh![09:21:47] <_hugo> geist: flute?[09:21:54] <geist> sometime along the way the gentoo install went terribly awry[09:21:59] <geist> http://www.marriedtothesea.com/042007/constitution-flute.gif[09:22:13] <_hugo> ah[09:22:14] <_hugo> :-D[09:22:41] <umccullough> heh[09:23:00] <Thom_Holwerda> geist: you'e got a pegasos?[09:23:05] <Thom_Holwerda> colour me jealous[09:23:08] <Thom_Holwerda> you ca run morphos[09:23:09] <geist> got like 3 of em[09:23:22] <geist> though one has since crapped out in a pretty permanent way[09:23:26] <umccullough> geist, genesi give them to you?[09:23:29] <geist> yeah[09:23:38] * _hugo wants free shit[09:23:39] <_hugo> :>[09:23:44] <Thom_Holwerda> bbrv were supposed to send me one too[09:23:47] <umccullough> hoping you'd make an os for it?[09:23:54] <Thom_Holwerda> but they never got around to, despite the promises[09:23:57] <geist> the peg I was crap, so no loss there[09:24:00] <Thom_Holwerda> now im supposed to get an efika once morphos runs on it[09:24:07] * JonathanThompson has some available, but _hugo had better have good baggies for it[09:24:10] <geist> i got a peg 2 from freescale, the ODM or whatever it's called[09:24:19] <_hugo> JonathanThompson: eheh, just joking around[09:24:20] <geist> in theory i was supposed to like actually do stuff on it[09:24:28] <geist> but they went under since then[09:24:31] <JonathanThompson> :)[09:24:42] <Thom_Holwerda> geist: genesi still exists[09:24:48] <geist> i did end up hacking newos for ppc, but i did it on a ibook[09:24:49] <Thom_Holwerda> they havent gone under :)[09:25:04] <geist> which is quite amazing[09:25:15] <umccullough> geist, didn't the peg's have a funky broken openfirmware implementation?[09:25:49] <geist> yeah[09:25:51] <umccullough> i seem to recall axel complaining about that...[09:25:59] <geist> it was crappy for osdev[09:26:12] <geist> it couldn't boot form any of it's nics or the floppy drive (floppy controller was busticated)[09:26:23] <umccullough> nice...[09:27:03] <geist> this peg2 has been generating a bunch of random compiler ICEs for a bit[09:27:14] <geist> not sur eif it's just a bad build of teh compiler on gentoo, or it's starting to die[09:28:05] <geist> oh an osnews note, I love the 'use gcc to write portable vector code' article[09:28:25] <geist> which basically says 'use the preprocessor to select the appropriate vector code for your platform'[09:28:30] <geist> umm, thats the opposite of portable[09:28:40] <_hugo> :-))[09:30:21] <ormandj> going to sleep[09:30:23] <ormandj> ciao all :)[09:30:28] <umccullough> 'night ormandj[09:30:33] <ormandj> night my friend[09:30:37] *** ormandj has quit IRC[09:39:25] <Ingenu> there was a Get BeOS Personnal Edition or something like that icon in the old days[09:39:32] <Ingenu> I used to have that in my signature[09:39:41] <Ingenu> could we have such a thing for Haiku please ?[09:40:57] *** myob has joined #haiku[09:43:25] <geist> hmm?[09:43:39] <geist> oh the icon? dunno[09:44:06] <Ingenu> that would be nice[09:44:26] <Ingenu> a small icon with "Support Haiku OS" for now, since it's not done yet[09:44:32] <Ingenu> then a "Get Haiku OS" one[09:44:41] *** petterhj has quit IRC[09:44:43] <_hugo> "hug a friend for Haiku"[09:46:47] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[09:47:28] <umccullough> 'ngiht[09:47:30] <umccullough> night even[09:47:54] <_hugo> see you umccullough[09:48:03] *** umccullough has left #haiku[09:48:20] <Begasus> g'morning peeps[09:48:29] <myob> 'ngiht sounds like some sort of nervous tick/snarl :p[09:48:44] <Begasus> ;)[09:49:57] *** FinnB has joined #haiku[09:52:48] <FinnB> Hi, trying to compile Open Sum-It.[09:52:56] <FinnB> Anyone had success with it?[09:53:04] <geist> on what?[09:53:20] <FinnB> R5.[09:53:33] <FinnB> Running make gives a lot of messages like this:[09:53:38] <FinnB> "Build/Makefile.main:139: dep.r5.0-x86-D/Sum-It_cpp.d: No such file or directory"[09:53:58] <myob> "make dep"[09:54:02] <_hugo> FinnB: isnt there a "make dep"?[09:54:05] <myob> then "make"[09:54:06] <_hugo> ah :-)[09:54:13] <FinnB> Somehow these dependency files have to be generated but aren't. Never worked with dependencies.[09:54:21] <FinnB> myob: Ah.[09:54:31] <FinnB> I will try that. Thanks.[09:54:32] <myob> this is why I hate make ;0[09:54:36] <myob> ;) *[09:55:00] <_hugo> myob: this is not make's fault, you can have auto-dependency building with gnu make[09:55:24] <myob> _hugo: yeah, but the problem is its horrifically sued[09:55:25] <myob> used*[09:55:28] <myob> (make in general)#[09:55:37] * FinnB goes back into code[09:55:44] <geist> make doesn't kill people, people kill people[09:56:09] <myob> geist: but make greatly helps them :P[09:57:44] <_hugo> berlios is still in purgatory[09:59:09] <FinnB> Hmm, still the same error. And I don't understand makefiles...[10:00:14] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[10:00:15] <FinnB> There are some scrits, however, "Make*Depend.sh". These _seem_ to be called by the makefile. But I am not sure about that. At least the script's filename occurs in the makefile.[10:00:28] <FinnB> scrits=scripts.[10:00:31] <Jixt> hi[10:01:12] <_hugo> from a quick look at its makefile it seems the dependencies should be generated automatically[10:01:55] <_hugo> the script is possibly failing, check if it has the execute flag on[10:02:12] <FinnB> _hugo: I will check that.[10:03:27] <FinnB> _hugo: Execute flags are set. I will try by just calling the scripts manually. Maybe that helps.[10:03:36] <_hugo> FinnB: they need arguments[10:04:07] *** Jixt has quit IRC[10:04:24] <FinnB> _hugo: Do you see that from the makefile? Or how do I know which arguments they need?[10:05:27] <_hugo> $(MAKE_DEPEND_C) $(CPPFLAGS) -c $< -dep $@ -odir $(OBJ_DIR)[10:05:56] <_hugo> FinnB: type 'make dep.r5.0-x86-D/Sum-It_cpp.d'[10:05:58] <_hugo> what does it say?[10:06:07] *** Nies_ has joined #haiku[10:07:22] <FinnB> _hugo: Same errors as before. Seems to just run the Makefile as if I had just typed 'make'.[10:08:39] <_hugo> FinnB: do you have the developer tools?[10:09:36] <FinnB> _hugo: You mean Oliver's latest gcc? Yes. gcc version 2.95.3-beos-060710[10:09:59] <FinnB> And the normal R5 Pro Dev tools as well, of course.[10:10:18] <_hugo> well, something is broken :-)[10:10:23] <_hugo> probably in the source[10:12:09] *** [Nies] has quit IRC[10:12:24] <FinnB> _hugo: Ahh. Why are these dependency files needed at all? Shouldn't it be enough to just '#include' all the needed files in the right places? I never "worked with dependencies" when coding. Self-taught coder :-)[10:13:13] <_hugo> FinnB: because you want the files that #include these files to be automatically rebuilt when a included file changes[10:13:18] <_hugo> thus dependency[10:15:25] <FinnB> Hmm, "rebuilt"? I don't understand. The files that include some file are "built by me", why are they rebuilt automatically :-) ? Seems I am on the wrong track here.[10:15:50] *** [Nies] has joined #haiku[10:16:26] <FinnB> "are they" => "should they be"[10:17:05] <_hugo> FinnB: you dont want to build all files every time you do a small change. as the number of files increase, as does the time required to compile all the files. so we try only to compile the files that change. as some files are included by others, must have a coherent view on their contents (or else programs might crash), you have explicit dependencies between files[10:17:26] <_hugo> what this make dependency stuff does is figure out those file dependencies automatically[10:17:40] <_hugo> so when you change a file which is required by other files, all of them get compiled[10:18:35] <_hugo> *and they must[10:18:50] <FinnB> Ok, I understand. It's only about the object files, not about the code itself. So dependencies save compile time. It would work without them, but slower because more files would have to be recompiled.[10:18:55] <FinnB> Do I get that right?[10:19:55] <_hugo> if you didnt have dependencies, in order to be sure that you have a correct build you would have to recompile everything each time[10:19:58] *** Nies_ has quit IRC[10:22:06] <FinnB> _hugo: Ok. Thanks for your help, I understand now. I will see if I understand the makefile. Will probably ask in bedevtalk first, maybe somebody already solved this problem.[10:24:22] <FinnB> Bye. Back to code :-)[10:24:27] *** FinnB has quit IRC[10:25:10] <raph_ael> hello[10:25:23] *** llama233 has joined #haiku[10:30:11] *** Karina` has joined #haiku[10:33:54] *** kokito has quit IRC[10:39:27] *** Karina`` has quit IRC[11:00:52] *** tombhadAC has quit IRC[11:05:26] *** GreyGhost has joined #haiku[11:19:15] *** [Nies] has quit IRC[11:19:28] *** GreyGhost has quit IRC[11:25:13] *** llama233 has quit IRC[11:29:57] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[11:33:06] *** [Nies] has joined #haiku[11:41:15] *** absabs has left #haiku[11:42:59] *** wildur has quit IRC[11:43:16] *** Thom_Holwerda has quit IRC[11:53:18] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[11:53:19] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[12:06:32] <mmu_man> ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host[12:06:37] <mmu_man> berlios still down :-([12:08:49] *** magnetron has joined #haiku[12:13:27] <_hugo> yep[12:17:07] *** asmodai has joined #Haiku[12:17:41] <asmodai> Simplistic question, how easy is it to port standard Unix command line programs to Haiku?[12:17:57] <asmodai> if they adhere to mostly POSIX and such standards[12:18:25] <_hugo> asmodai: shouldn't be too hard[12:18:49] <asmodai> _hugo: I'm pondering if pkgsrc can be made to work with Haiku[12:19:33] <_hugo> asmodai: what requirements does it have?[12:20:00] <asmodai> _hugo: some standard unix tools, make, sh, sed/awk/grep for the build infrastructure.[12:20:15] <_hugo> asmodai: should be fine then[12:20:18] <asmodai> But it provides those tools in the bootstrap[12:20:25] <asmodai> _hugo: Cool, I should dig into it then. :)[12:20:43] <raph_ael> pkgsrc with haiku shoudl be very nice :)[12:20:58] <asmodai> raph_ael: I used to do a lot of pkgsrc for DragonFly BSD.[12:20:58] <_hugo> since we can't build stuff inside haiku right now, your biggest problem is probably cross-compiling right now[12:21:14] <asmodai> _hugo: One of my other projects is a MIT/BSD licensed C compiler ^^[12:21:15] <raph_ael> i'm used to it on netbsd and solaris[12:21:19] <raph_ael> and it's very handy[12:21:35] * asmodai thinks he still has pkgsrc-wip commit privs[12:21:47] <raph_ael> ohoh :)[12:21:50] <_hugo> asmodai: really? do you have a url?[12:21:59] <raph_ael> making a c compiler is not an easy task[12:22:18] <asmodai> _hugo: Well, I used to be the prime idiot for www.tendra.org - but I'm starting from scratch with a friend using some of its tools and work from there.[12:22:28] <asmodai> raph_ael: *shrug* just requires some time and dedication ;)[12:22:45] <asmodai> raph_ael: I don't want to go down the 'support X languages' road of GCC.[12:22:48] <asmodai> raph_ael: KISS ;)[12:23:19] <raph_ael> :)[12:23:45] <raph_ael> i'm not enough deep into computing science to have a pertinent position on compilers ;)[12:23:55] <asmodai> raph_ael: neither do I *grin*[12:24:51] <raph_ael> surely more than i do :)[12:24:59] <asmodai> I hope so. :)[12:25:05] *** mmadia has quit IRC[12:25:34] <asmodai> Last time I installed Haiku 't was under VMWare. Is there any way to install it 'natively' by now?[12:25:46] <raph_ael> if you manage haveing a pkgsrc working with haiku, it will become more and more interesting[12:26:04] <asmodai> raph_ael: My thoughts exactly. ;)[12:26:07] <_hugo> asmodai: yes, it has been recently discussed in the mailing list[12:26:28] <asmodai> _hugo: which list? user list or dev or is there only one list?[12:27:05] <_hugo> asmodai: the user list, openbeos at freelists dot org[12:27:21] <_hugo> http://haiku-os.org/community/ml[12:27:22] <asmodai> Got it[12:27:31] <asmodai> _hugo: April archive?[12:28:04] <_hugo> asmodai: hopefully, yes :-) cant' really precise[12:28:12] <asmodai> That's ok. I'll poke[12:32:42] <asmodai> Oh ye flipping gods.[12:32:53] <asmodai> I should *not* have read the distribution thread.[12:33:22] *** FinnB has joined #haiku[12:33:31] <_hugo> asmodai: why is that?[12:33:55] <asmodai> _hugo: I thoroughly hate distributions like Linux does it. One of the reasons I stuck with commercial unices and BSD unices. :)[12:34:07] <asmodai> _hugo: It's a huge waste of effort on a lot of people's side in the end.[12:34:24] <asmodai> But hey, personal opinions, lalala, only been doing open source since 1997 or so ;)[12:34:51] <_hugo> asmodai: right, i agree[12:35:03] <_hugo> asmodai: there is no conclusion on that discussion by the way[12:35:20] <asmodai> _hugo: As I figured and nothing to limit people creating distros.[12:35:27] <_hugo> some people want to run their own distributions, thats about it right now. i think its clear some of the developers want a stable base[12:35:39] <asmodai> _hugo: Just seems like a huge time drain, Monkey Nutsack Haiku v1.323[12:35:54] <asmodai> _hugo: Stable base is good yea.[12:36:03] <_hugo> asmodai: i agree. but people are free to waste their time as they wish. to me personally, as long as there is one official base, thats all that matters[12:36:24] <asmodai> _hugo: That would be swell yeah. With base you mean more than just a kernel I assume?[12:36:34] <_hugo> asmodai: yes, i mean base system[12:36:44] <asmodai> I think we're in agreement. :)[12:36:55] <_hugo> :-)[12:38:52] *** Begasus has quit IRC[12:39:01] <asmodai> _hugo: btw, what's the native file format used for executables? ELF?[12:39:49] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[12:39:53] <_hugo> asmodai: yep[12:39:58] <asmodai> Schweet.[12:42:27] <raph_ael> asmodai: i fully agree with your opinion on distributions, that's why i'm leaving the linux world, well one of the reason :)[12:42:56] <asmodai> raph_ael: Well, I'm biased of course. Wasn't a committer for two BSDs for nothing ;)[12:44:33] <raph_ael> of course :)[12:44:45] <raph_ael> it's all personnal opionions, etc etc[12:44:54] <asmodai> *nod*[12:45:00] <asmodai> Thus far it has served me well :D[12:45:23] * asmodai is also one of those fools that loves writing documentation[12:45:23] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[12:46:58] <raph_ael> great point for you :)[12:48:38] <asmodai> docs are cool[12:49:55] <raph_ael> docs are useful[12:50:22] <asmodai> Oh yeah, I love using rst and DocBook[12:52:04] *** noph has joined #haiku[12:53:37] *** FinnB has quit IRC[12:55:16] <asmodai> raph_ael: http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/akuma/sid.html as an example of what I do :)[12:59:41] *** noph has quit IRC[13:07:10] *** bga has joined #haiku[13:07:11] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o bga[13:12:42] *** Nies_ has joined #haiku[13:14:06] * mmu_man mmsclient mms://a1806.v192853.c19285.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1806/19285/v0001/arte.download.akamai.com/18709/stream/arte-tv/permanent/c4/google_high720_logo_fr.wmv[13:14:19] <mmu_man> http://www.arte.tv/fr/histoire-societe/Les-nouveaux-maitres-du-monde/Programme/1527572.html[13:14:40] <myob> mmu_man: sego or sarko?[13:14:46] <mmu_man> [fr] Shoudl you be scared of google ? :)[13:14:55] <mmu_man> myob time will tell[13:15:12] <_hugo> put the girl on power[13:15:22] <mmu_man> yes[13:15:27] <mmu_man> sarko is really dangerous[13:15:33] <mmu_man> scary[13:15:36] <Ingenu> whomever it'll be an asshole grabbing power for his/her own sake[13:15:39] <asmodai> I consider the banlieus more dangerous.[13:15:43] <_hugo> he's short, she's cute, no contest there[13:15:45] <myob> could be scary with ireland, england, holland and france with a woman head of state :o[13:15:50] <mmu_man> if he gets in I'll seriously consider moving :-([13:16:05] <myob> and germany with a woman PM[13:16:13] *** Begasus has quit IRC[13:16:38] <asmodai> Personally I'd rather get a bunch of politicians that stand firm and safeguard European ideals and get people's noses all pointing the same way.[13:16:51] <asmodai> I mean, if brasil can get everybody speaking Brasilia Portuguese and they all screw each other[13:16:54] <asmodai> what did we do wrong? :)[13:16:55] <_hugo> asmodai: which are the European ideals? :-)[13:16:56] *** [Nies] has quit IRC[13:16:59] <myob> dopesn't help that theres no one "European"....[13:17:18] <asmodai> _hugo: I think Kierkegaard and other humanists defined a lot of Europe's values.[13:17:23] <myob> no way in hell are we the same 'people' in the frame of having the same 'ideals' as Romanians[13:17:36] <asmodai> myob: Heh, Polish homophobia showed that.[13:17:38] <myob> theres what, 900 miles or more between us[13:17:39] <_hugo> asmodai: ah yes, but this is a very specific Europe[13:17:39] <mmu_man> (IMO we should really be scared of google, if they have basements like bga's)[13:17:42] <asmodai> Guess us Dutchies are too liberal ;)[13:17:45] <mmu_man> :p[13:17:50] <_hugo> asmodai: the european union is quite diverse now[13:18:02] <myob> asmodai: they did an, erm, efficient job - all the Polish homosexuals are in Ireland now ;)[13:18:15] <mmu_man> bga did that demo work out ?[13:18:24] <_hugo> myob: being a bit conservative there i assume :-)[13:18:31] <asmodai> _hugo: I'm all for the Technocratic Republic of North-West Europe. >:D[13:18:54] <myob> _hugo: nah, they are. I don't care that they're all here[13:19:00] <_hugo> asmodai: im not from the North-West Europe, and i don't identify myself with Northern europe at all. :-)[13:19:20] <asmodai> Ahh[13:19:26] <asmodai> _hugo: Portugues, sim? :)[13:19:31] <_hugo> asmodai: yep[13:19:45] <asmodai> _hugo: Cool. Tudo bem? ;)[13:19:56] <_hugo> asmodai: tambem es portugues?[13:20:12] <asmodai> Não. Just a Dutchie.[13:20:15] <_hugo> no, doesn't seem so, dutch name :-)[13:20:20] <_hugo> eheh[13:20:21] <asmodai> My ex is Brasiliera.[13:20:25] <asmodai> And my cousin Portuguese.[13:20:28] <_hugo> ah :-)[13:20:30] <asmodai> And I used to train capoeira ;)[13:20:39] <asmodai> Eu falo um poco Portugûes[13:20:46] *** noph has joined #haiku[13:20:47] <asmodai> But it's rusty now.[13:20:50] <myob> is .nl "north west" europe?[13:20:55] <asmodai> myob: Of course![13:20:57] <myob> I see Ireland and Scotland as north west europe[13:21:03] <asmodai> myob: pffft :P[13:21:21] <myob> and i'm from the north west of ireland ;)[13:21:27] <_hugo> northern europe (norway, sweden, finland) is quite different culturally from western europe[13:21:36] <asmodai> myob: i m'Banba óir![13:21:37] <asmodai> (IIRC)[13:21:41] <_hugo> i would say that the differences are even deeper than in the US[13:21:58] <myob> asmodai: that probably got corrupted by irssi but it made no sense whatsoever...[13:22:02] <asmodai> :([13:22:04] <_hugo> same with Eastern europe and western europe[13:22:11] <asmodai> myob: You don't speak Gaelic? :)[13:22:32] <myob> asmodai: somewhat.[13:22:48] <myob> nobody really speaks it unless they think theres money in it..[13:23:01] <_hugo> myob: thats not true[13:23:26] <myob> _hugo: about Irish? Believe me, it is[13:23:46] <_hugo> myob: ah, wait, im messing Gaelic with Welsh[13:23:47] <_hugo> nevermind[13:23:48] <myob> you'd have to spend a long hard day in Dublin finding someone speaking it, and down the country, it could still take a few hours...[13:23:49] <_hugo> :-0[13:23:55] <asmodai> as far as I know: i m'Banba óir = in/oh my golden ireland[13:24:26] <asmodai> Excuse the polyglot here. :)[13:24:35] <myob> I'm guessing what I'm seeing as ? is O with a forward slanting diacritc?[13:24:42] <asmodai> yes[13:24:46] <asmodai> 'oir[13:25:05] <asmodai> Funny since I am using irssi too.[13:25:13] <asmodai> Of course, UTF-8 environment.[13:26:51] <myob> Oir is gold[13:26:56] <myob> Banba isn't Ireland...[13:27:20] <myob> probably not UTF8 here, its a random mates shell...[13:27:28] <asmodai> Mmm, thought 't was.[13:28:21] <myob> can't remember what it is (other than the name of the irish toymaster franchiser)[13:28:32] <asmodai> slán le na laethe bhí[13:28:33] * asmodai checks[13:29:30] <asmodai> Funny, every translation of m'Banba/mBanba seems to be Ireland[13:29:56] <myob> its a contraction of "mo banba" anyway, which is "my something"[13:30:40] <myob> anyway, I'm off for lunch...[13:30:47] *** myob is now known as myob|food[13:32:21] <asmodai> Seems Banba is the patron goddess of Ireland and the two are intimately connected.[13:33:19] <asmodai> Anyway...[13:34:01] <asmodai> myob|food: Given that Banba is an old Irish name for Ireland, the irony of the situation was not lost on McKenna (http://www.gerardmanleyhopkins.org/sculptor/achievement.html)[13:37:24] *** gotaku has joined #haiku[13:38:45] *** [Nies] has joined #haiku[13:42:55] *** Nies_ has quit IRC[13:51:31] <raph_ael> "european ideals" fun dream :)[13:51:44] <asmodai> raph_ael: shhhh ;)[13:54:57] <raph_ael> nl is a country i'd be happy to move to[13:56:47] <Ingenu> drug addict :p[13:57:03] <raph_ael> it could be that, but it's not :)[13:57:30] <Ingenu> legal prostitution ?[13:57:38] <Ingenu> ;p[14:01:33] <asmodai> Most drugs here aren't legal, merely tolerated.[14:08:03] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[14:09:00] <gotaku> I'm starting to get annoyed with Linux...[14:09:21] *** rcjsuen_ has joined #haiku[14:09:25] <asmodai> Don't we all.[14:09:36] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[14:09:59] <gotaku> The inconsistencies are really starting to bug me.[14:10:27] <raph_ael> it's getting worse and worse[14:10:47] <gotaku> And the bloat...[14:11:39] <raph_ael> it reminds the story of hundreds of monkeys who could write a shakespeare book if we let them time[14:12:06] <raph_ael> sometimes i feel like linux is a try to do this based on an os[14:14:05] *** rcjsuen_ is now known as rcjsuen[14:15:04] <gotaku> I hate to say it but Linux (by that I mean the OS of course) is starting to feel like a kludge.[14:16:15] <asmodai> raph_ael: *chuckle*[14:16:27] <asmodai> raph_ael: That one was said a lot in certain groups. ;)[14:17:19] <raph_ael> :)[14:18:52] <_hugo> well, support carries a enormous weight though. it means there's more people to write great tools such as valgrind, and that people writing software such as xorg and others do it for Linux, not for *BSD[14:18:54] <_hugo> etc.[14:19:10] <gotaku> I wish Haiku was stable enough for everyday use.[14:19:32] <asmodai> Which also means it sucks.[14:19:37] <asmodai> In some ways.[14:19:44] <Ingenu> daily[14:19:46] <Ingenu> daily use[14:19:51] <Ingenu> ;p[14:19:52] *** Jixt has quit IRC[14:20:14] <gotaku> daily?[14:20:16] <asmodai> Nowadays I have to correct too many linuxisms in code.[14:20:22] <asmodai> Not to mention GCC Cisms[14:20:44] <mmu_man> if only it was just about removing the -lm[14:20:49] <surrounder> imho linux is great for desktop usage, don't know much about the code but I can do everything I want with it and it runs fast as hell[14:20:51] <Ingenu> "if only Haiku was stable enough for daily use"[14:20:59] <Ingenu> just correcting sentences because I like it ;p[14:21:22] <gotaku> Ingenu: I'm not arguing but why is "everyday use" wrong?[14:22:23] *** DaaT has joined #haiku[14:22:29] <Ingenu> it's not wrong[14:22:32] <Ingenu> it's just not nice[14:22:43] <{V}> "everyday use" doesn't trip any mental alarms for me either. I wonder if I should be worried[14:23:07] <gotaku> Maybe it's a regional thing.[14:23:33] <Ingenu> there's a nice short cute word for that, it's "daily"[14:26:09] <myob|food> did FinnB not suceed with "make dep" as we suggested?[14:26:30] *** myob|food is now known as myob[14:27:33] *** StylusEater_Work has joined #haiku[14:36:02] <{V}> does that mean that making a mirror of his BeOS related stuff might be a good idea?[14:36:53] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[14:39:51] *** gravy has left #Haiku[14:39:55] <mmu_man> would be a good idea to wget -m[14:41:41] <[Beta]> It was previously mirrored on the Haiku site, until someone ditched it.[14:44:14] <gotaku> Is there a guide to installing Haiku from Linux?[14:45:54] *** guma has joined #haiku[14:46:44] *** Jixt has quit IRC[14:48:23] *** guma has quit IRC[14:56:12] <myob> {V}: it would be, yeah[14:56:15] <myob> so get to it ;)[15:11:07] *** gotaku has quit IRC[15:19:27] *** gotaku has joined #haiku[15:23:33] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[15:24:26] *** adamk has joined #haiku[15:24:29] *** adamk has left #haiku[15:25:47] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[15:30:23] *** gravy has joined #haiku[15:37:11] *** kb7sqi has quit IRC[15:37:38] <noph> gotaku: well, there is a guide for compiling it under linux[15:37:51] <noph> getting the developer tools etc.[15:39:59] *** ekdahl has joined #haiku[15:44:26] *** gotaku has quit IRC[15:46:41] *** SiCuTDeUx has joined #haiku[15:52:08] <{V}> myob, mmu_man gave you almost all the instructions you need. YOU get to it ;p[15:53:08] <myob> {V}: he did nothing of the sort! I'm highly insulted :P[15:53:38] <{V}> wget -m[15:53:38] <{V}> what more do you need? :D[15:54:33] <myob> wget[15:54:38] <myob> I'm on winders[15:56:13] <{V}> that's no excuse ;p[15:56:52] <{V}> oops[15:57:13] *** GreyGhost has joined #haiku[15:59:04] *** gotaku has joined #haiku[15:59:17] <gotaku> Ok, I got Haiku installed but my mouse and keyboard don't work.[15:59:26] <DaaT> who needs those anyway[15:59:43] <asmodai> gotaku: How are you typing now then? ;)[16:00:14] <{V}> asmodai, neural interface of course[16:00:23] <asmodai> {V}: Ah, silly me. Of course.[16:00:49] <DaaT> and you call yourself a geek... tsk tsk[16:01:14] <asmodai> Did I?[16:01:24] * asmodai even went to the gym this morning.[16:01:26] <asmodai> Exercise.[16:01:29] <asmodai> And I have a gf.[16:01:35] <asmodai> Mmm, three strikes, I'm out now. :([16:01:37] <DaaT> you didn't, but you're on haiku[16:01:42] <DaaT> so do I, and I'm a geek :P[16:01:45] <asmodai> Hahaha[16:01:47] * asmodai chuckles[16:01:53] <asmodai> Oh wait, geek != nerd.[16:01:58] <DaaT> exactly[16:02:00] * asmodai is thus safely a geek, yet not a nerd.[16:02:02] <DaaT> myob's the nerd[16:02:07] *** guildencrantz has joined #haiku[16:02:22] <asmodai> He got my blessing[16:03:34] <asmodai> Got to maintain the balance. ;)[16:03:52] <DaaT> of course[16:03:59] <DaaT> it's like the Force[16:04:13] <DaaT> there's use, then there's myob, the dark side[16:04:19] * asmodai grins[16:04:24] <DaaT> use=us[16:04:52] <{V}> myob, http://www.christopherlewis.com/WGet/WGetFiles.htm[16:05:04] *** [Nies] has quit IRC[16:06:31] <gotaku> I rebooted back to Linux... that's how I'm typing.[16:07:49] <gotaku> Does Haiku not support usb?[16:07:58] * DaaT ponders playing tennis on the Wii... but is watching snooker on eurosport[16:09:32] <{V}> oh cool! snooker[16:09:39] <DaaT> *nod*[16:09:46] <DaaT> o'sullivan[16:11:44] *** DeadYak has joined #haiku[16:11:54] * DaaT pets DeadYak[16:14:33] * DeadYak pets DaaT[16:15:01] <asmodai> gotaku: it does support[16:15:08] <asmodai> gotaku: This USB 1.x or 2.x?[16:15:38] <gotaku> 2.x[16:15:39] *** [Nies] has joined #haiku[16:15:48] <gotaku> I think.[16:15:54] <asmodai> Not sure how well EHCI is supported yet.[16:16:24] <asmodai> I remember currently only OHCI is supported and almost no UHCI (or vice versa) and little EHCI. But I'd need to check[16:16:35] <myob> {V}:work machine, I'm not doing it here...[16:16:39] <asmodai> http://haiku-os.org/blog/mmlr/2007-04-20/using_the_haiku_usb_stack[16:16:58] <myob> USB2 is supproted better than USB1.1 in that all controllers work :P[16:16:59] <asmodai> mmm, perhaps I am outdated already again[16:17:07] <{V}> myob, k[16:17:18] *** GreyGhost has quit IRC[16:19:45] <DeadYak> with respect to the USB stack, OHCI is the one that's unimplemented[16:21:35] <gotaku> BOth my mouse and keyboard are OHCI :([16:21:44] <asmodai> tada.[16:25:22] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[16:26:55] <myob> the mouse and keyboard aren't anything[16:27:01] <myob> the CONTROLLER is OHCI[16:27:18] <_hugo> uh-oh.[16:27:21] <myob> hence the C in O/U/E Host Controller Interface[16:28:19] *** magnetron has quit IRC[16:29:47] <gotaku> Yes?[16:32:44] <mmu_man> yes[16:33:22] <mmu_man> it's just 3 different standards for register sets and behaviours for the USB controller on the mobo[16:35:48] *** [Nies] has quit IRC[16:38:25] <gotaku> I think I have a ps/2 adaptor around somewhere...[16:38:40] *** Mazon is now known as mazon[16:48:09] *** [Nies] has joined #haiku[16:49:42] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[16:55:44] *** Thom_Holwerda has joined #haiku[16:56:48] *** arikato has joined #haiku[17:04:39] <Thom_Holwerda> any one in here who recently complained about osnews v4?[17:04:45] <Thom_Holwerda> if so, got a little surprise for ya ;)[17:05:20] <gotaku> HM?[17:05:43] <Thom_Holwerda> hm?[17:06:01] <gotaku> Yeah, osnews v4?[17:06:53] <Thom_Holwerda> what do you mean by 'HM'?[17:07:06] <mmu_man> sigh[17:07:37] <gotaku> "hm?", as in what are you talking about.[17:07:44] <Thom_Holwerda> ah[17:08:04] <Thom_Holwerda> some people here complained about the next version of osnews, thats all[17:08:28] <myob> thats cause we always complain in here[17:08:30] *** caim has joined #haiku[17:08:44] <myob> Bitch-eOS :P[17:08:47] <mmu_man> I didn't know we were all french here[17:08:48] <gotaku> Next version? As in a different look?[17:08:58] <mmu_man> gotaku yes, themable[17:09:00] <Thom_Holwerda> completely re-written[17:09:15] <Thom_Holwerda> but the first theme we had[17:09:18] <myob> mmu_man: all? me and Thom sure ain't[17:09:20] <Thom_Holwerda> kinda wasnt good[17:09:21] <gotaku> Where can I see it?[17:09:28] <mmu_man> [17:13] <myob> thats cause we always complain in here[17:09:42] <Thom_Holwerda> we HAD www4.osnews.com[17:09:47] <asmodai> myob: Us Dutchies invented the whining. :P[17:09:54] <Thom_Holwerda> thats probably going down the drain[17:09:57] <Thom_Holwerda> the design, that is[17:10:08] <Thom_Holwerda> asmodai: tell me about it ;)[17:10:39] <StylusEater_Work> Thom: yeah...there is nothing on the left side[17:11:03] <Thom_Holwerda> StylusEater_Work: we actually have a theme with the sidebar on the left side[17:11:20] <asmodai> Thom_Holwerda: I could, but I'd rather whine. :P[17:11:21] <Thom_Holwerda> but its irrelevant, a designer worked on a new version[17:12:33] <noph> this is kind of interresting, writing text in vim using utf-8, scripting and shit[17:12:49] <noph> and then when i run it, bash runs it with a another encoding[17:13:31] <mmu_man> bash doesn't encode anything[17:14:15] <noph> well, i'm doing some sed thingies, to remove special characters. but but bash gives me other chars instead of those i specified-.[17:14:47] <noph> when i edit it with vim, it looks like it should.[17:15:27] <noph> cat'ing the file shows it with a another encoding as well.[17:16:15] *** gravy has left #haiku[17:16:36] <noph> any suggestions handling this situation? :D[17:16:48] <noph> or am i missing something fundamental?[17:17:04] <Thom_Holwerda> wtf[17:17:16] <Thom_Holwerda> amiga os4 has found hardware to run on[17:17:39] * DeadYak looks for flying pigs[17:18:02] <Thom_Holwerda> DeadYak: yeah couldnt find them[17:18:19] <DeadYak> I actually like the theme with the sidebar on the left incidentally[17:18:40] <Thom_Holwerda> then you're gonna be happy :)[17:21:16] <asmodai> noph: echo $LANG[17:24:08] <noph> vimo3:/home/noph# echo $LANG[17:24:08] <noph> sv_SE.UTF-8[17:24:29] *** avkig has quit IRC[17:24:32] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[17:24:56] *** slaine_ has quit IRC[17:28:50] <noph> well, time to head home[17:28:51] <noph> laters[17:28:51] *** MrRagga has joined #haiku[17:28:52] *** noph has quit IRC[17:30:24] <gotaku> I take it that Haiku doesn't yet supported 3d acceleration?[17:34:30] <[Beta]> It can, but its not working atm[17:37:11] *** SiCuTDeUx has quit IRC[17:37:11] <Ingenu> no drivers[17:37:11] <Ingenu> no doc to write drivers[17:37:11] <Ingenu> won't help[17:37:12] *** SiCuTDeUx has joined #haiku[17:37:16] <Ingenu> and of course no interest by IHV[17:37:48] <myob> is there any non-independent hardware vendors?[17:37:53] <myob> or indeed software[17:38:01] <myob> the I in IHV/ISV is so pointless[17:38:42] <Ingenu> guess people love three letters acronyms[17:38:46] <gotaku> Intel is pretty open about drivers.[17:39:08] <Ingenu> intel GPU pretty much sucks[17:39:49] <gotaku> I think that will change in the future... I think they are looking to compete directly with nvidia and ati.[17:40:32] <Ingenu> I doubt they'll achieve that within the next 5 years w/o buying/licencing a 3D hardware firm[17:40:50] <Ingenu> firm/tech[17:41:07] <gotaku> Besides, while the intel gpu is no 8800 GTX don't you only need that much power for modern games?[17:41:23] <[Beta]> for anything written for Haiku, the intel chipsets are more than enough*.[17:41:27] <myob> they've bought enough of the damn firms through the years![17:41:37] <myob> gotta hope the GMA900 ges decent drivers[17:42:43] *** |DaaT| has joined #haiku[17:42:56] <Ingenu> high end hardware offer not only high performances, but usable featureset[17:43:23] <DeadYak> Intel are kind of a mixed bag when it comes to drivers[17:43:30] <DeadYak> HDA for instance isn't open iirc.[17:43:31] <Ingenu> it's nice to have a features checked on the box, but w/o performances those are just useless[17:44:58] <gotaku> Does haiku have a radeon driver? Xorg has some open source radeon drivers which are... useable.[17:45:15] <[Beta]> gotaku, 2d, not 3d[17:45:28] *** DaaT has quit IRC[17:45:36] <gotaku> Why no 3d?[17:46:04] <[Beta]> its not easy writing 3d drivers. :)[17:47:08] <gotaku> Graphics cards are getting ridiculous now days anyway...[17:49:18] <DeadYak> gotaku: a) not easy to write, b) ATI and Nvidia don't open their specs[17:49:27] <geist> well, nice to see berlios fixed their stuff[17:49:40] <DeadYak> oh? finally[17:49:41] <gotaku> DeadYak: The xorg one is reverse engineered.[17:49:47] <DeadYak> gotaku: I realize that[17:49:51] <DeadYak> gotaku: which is even harder to do for 3D[17:49:54] <[Beta]> anyone having problems with google reachability ?[17:52:15] <gotaku> I don't know that much about drivers or operating systems yet, but way isn't it possible to create some kind of abstraction layer that would allow drivers from one os to run in another?[17:52:36] <geist> yes, but it doesn't matter until all of them do it[17:52:41] <geist> and there's always a performance hit[17:52:47] <asmodai> gotaku: Like the NDIS wrappers for network drivers.[17:52:48] <geist> therefore, no os does[17:52:49] <[Beta]> gotaku, because it doesnt fix the underlying problem :) and it is possible. Look at the NDIS wrapper.[17:52:54] <asmodai> [Beta]: Jinx.[17:53:01] <[Beta]> oh pooh[17:53:28] <geist> NDIS isn't really the same thing[17:53:43] <geist> that's just a case where someone emulated another api on top of a different os[17:53:46] <gotaku> Instead of some general interface then what about just having WIndows drivers in Haiku?[17:54:00] <geist> making a portable api from the get go is the real trick[17:54:16] <geist> and no one has done that, because you'd have to design for the lowest common denominator[17:54:38] <asmodai> CGA? :D[17:54:55] * asmodai goes to hack some Makefiles[17:58:14] *** caim has quit IRC[17:59:07] *** MauriceK has joined #haiku[18:03:55] *** Jixt has quit IRC[18:03:58] *** myob has quit IRC[18:06:04] *** {V} has quit IRC[18:06:35] *** {V} has joined #haiku[18:09:10] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[18:11:17] *** Nies_ has joined #haiku[18:11:51] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[18:12:19] *** kr1stof has quit IRC[18:12:53] *** SiCuTDeUx_ has joined #haiku[18:12:58] *** Sloar has joined #haiku[18:15:01] *** kokito has joined #haiku[18:15:33] *** [Nies] has quit IRC[18:17:26] *** shackan has joined #haiku[18:21:39] *** Begasus has quit IRC[18:21:45] *** mazon is now known as Mazon[18:23:15] *** MauriceK_ has joined #haiku[18:26:17] *** SiCuTDeUx__ has joined #haiku[18:26:46] <gotaku> How do I have something run at start-up?[18:27:57] *** nielx has joined #haiku[18:28:13] *** SiCuTDeUx_ has quit IRC[18:29:05] <pyCube2> blibbity[18:29:11] *** SiCuTDeUx_Zz has quit IRC[18:30:39] *** avkig has joined #haiku[18:30:50] *** [Nies] has joined #haiku[18:31:55] *** SiCuTDeUx_ has joined #haiku[18:31:57] *** SiCuTDeUx_ is now known as SiCuTDeUx_Zz[18:34:52] *** Nies_ has quit IRC[18:36:01] <SiCuTDeUx> OMG [Nies][18:36:14] *** SiCuTDeUx_ has joined #haiku[18:39:25] *** MauriceK has quit IRC[18:41:25] <[Nies]> hi SiCuTDeUx[18:41:27] <[Nies]> :)[18:45:04] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[18:45:51] *** SiCuTDeUx__ has quit IRC[18:46:45] *** korli has joined #haiku[18:46:45] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o korli[18:48:19] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[18:48:36] *** SiCuTDeUx__ has joined #haiku[18:51:00] *** stargater has joined #haiku[18:51:06] <stargater> hi all[18:51:59] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[18:52:11] <gotaku> How do I have something run at Haiku start-up?[18:52:23] <petterhj> UserBootScript[18:52:39] *** SiCuTDeUx_Zz has quit IRC[18:54:38] <stargater> berlios down ? (more then 3 days?)[18:56:24] *** shackan has quit IRC[18:57:21] *** shackan has joined #haiku[18:58:41] *** pikapika has joined #haiku[18:59:19] <pikapika> yo[18:59:44] <korli> stargater: it's working again[19:00:41] <stargater> ah, but no new source commets on CIA[19:01:17] <korli> stargater: it seems _hugo didn't notice it's working again :)[19:01:17] *** xcasex has joined #haiku[19:02:31] <gotaku> We'll probably get like 100 commits in a row.[19:03:16] *** SiCuTDeUx_ has quit IRC[19:05:38] *** gotaku has quit IRC[19:06:13] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[19:06:59] <stargater> ah ok[19:07:04] *** SiCuTDeUx has quit IRC[19:08:14] *** SiCuTDeUx has joined #haiku[19:11:13] *** ChrisHJW has joined #haiku[19:12:08] *** Begasus has quit IRC[19:18:21] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[19:21:28] *** nielx has quit IRC[19:23:38] *** MikeW has joined #haiku[19:30:35] *** TTRanger has joined #haiku[19:34:58] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[19:36:17] *** TTRanger has joined #Haiku[19:36:45] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[19:37:35] *** TTRanger has joined #Haiku[19:38:09] <korli> how can a BView know its coordinates in its BWindow ?[19:42:57] <stargater> http://www.sffjunkie.co.uk/beos/BeBook/BMessage.html[19:43:11] <stargater> AddRect()[19:45:35] <stargater> http://www.sffjunkie.co.uk/beos/BeBook/BView.html[19:45:48] <stargater> korli: help this ?[19:46:03] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[19:48:01] *** TTRanger has joined #haiku[19:53:23] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[19:53:32] *** Nies_ has joined #haiku[19:53:34] <SiCuTDeUx> korli, black magic? voodoo stuff?[19:53:41] *** Nies_ is now known as Nies[19:54:54] *** guildencrantz has quit IRC[19:57:27] <DeadYak> BView::ConvertToParent I believe[19:58:41] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[19:58:47] <DeadYak> http://www.sffjunkie.co.uk/beos/BeBook/BView.html#BView_ConvertToParent - Korli[19:58:48] *** Euver has joined #haiku[19:59:33] *** [Nies] has quit IRC[19:59:46] *** TTRanger has joined #haiku[20:00:30] <TTRanger> Begasus[20:00:41] <Begasus> TTRanger[20:01:31] *** MauriceK_ has quit IRC[20:02:05] *** guildencrantz has joined #haiku[20:06:52] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[20:07:02] *** TTRanger has joined #haiku[20:07:31] <Thom_Holwerda> if i hear one more person saying "xyz should be ported to the ps3" then I will personally shove a ps3 up his bottom.[20:07:34] <Thom_Holwerda> so there.[20:07:50] <Thom_Holwerda> as you were.[20:07:58] <|DaaT|> Haiku should be ported to the PS3!![20:08:58] <xcasex> gears of war should be ported to the wii![20:09:01] <xcasex> oh.. err..[20:09:50] * |DaaT| pets his Wii[20:09:55] <|DaaT|> NINTENDO Wii :P[20:09:57] * xcasex pets his gf[20:09:59] <bga> get a room![20:10:15] * |DaaT| will pet his gf this weekend[20:11:54] <Thom_Holwerda> i should've kept my pie hole shut[20:12:00] * Thom_Holwerda shakes head[20:12:38] <DeadYak> figuratively or literally?[20:12:54] <Thom_Holwerda> combination[20:13:53] * |DaaT| covers Thom_Holwerda's pie hole... noone wants to see that[20:16:09] *** |DaaT| is now known as DaaT[20:18:08] *** siarzhuk has joined #haiku[20:20:22] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[20:20:37] <stargater> i vote haiku for the dreamcast (sh-4 cpu :-) )[20:21:03] <stargater> ore for the ps2[20:22:58] <DeadYak> NewOS was partly running on the DC at one point I believe[20:25:42] <stargater> true[20:25:43] *** SiCuTDeUx__ has quit IRC[20:25:43] *** SiCuTDeUx has quit IRC[20:26:01] *** SiCuTDeUx_ has joined #haiku[20:26:03] *** SiCuTDeUx_ is now known as SiCuTDeUx_Zz[20:27:56] *** kokito has quit IRC[20:28:48] *** kokito has joined #haiku[20:29:18] <stargater> wb kokito[20:31:02] *** SiCuTDeUx has joined #haiku[20:31:05] *** xeD has joined #haiku[20:31:30] *** xeD has quit IRC[20:31:31] <stargater> hmm intresting http://osnews.com/story.php/17748/New-Amiga-Hardware-Announced[20:31:41] <DeadYak> I'll believe it when I see it[20:31:51] <stargater> i hope its not a vapo_news[20:31:56] <pyCube> hehe[20:32:15] <stargater> for a april_fool its to late[20:32:59] <stargater> ohh my " pizza = true;"[20:33:01] <stargater> bbl[20:33:48] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[20:34:29] *** Kernel86 has quit IRC[20:36:46] <Thom_Holwerda> DeadYak: same here[20:37:03] <Thom_Holwerda> i want to see one in real life first[20:37:09] <DeadYak> then again, the whole Amiga drama's pretty much left me utterly uninterested in general[20:37:27] <Thom_Holwerda> aos4 is one of those pieces of software i just NEED to run[20:37:48] <DeadYak> I honestly haven't really figured out what makes it so great[20:37:49] <Begasus> Thom_Holwerda there still is a pretty active comunity for Amiga in Belgium[20:38:05] <Begasus> they have meetings every 3 months[20:38:10] <Thom_Holwerda> Begasus: sadly, contrary to popular belief, osnews aint making me rich[20:38:21] <Thom_Holwerda> so i cant buy an amiga machine[20:38:36] <Begasus> same here ... although I'm not aplying yet ;)[20:38:42] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[20:38:51] <Begasus> but it was nice to see MorphOS etc ;)[20:39:21] <Thom_Holwerda> bbrv were supposed to send me an odw (pegII)[20:39:24] *** MYOB has joined #haiku[20:39:27] <Thom_Holwerda> they didnt[20:39:57] <Begasus> shame on them!![20:40:20] <Thom_Holwerda> they now promised to send me an efika once mos runs on it[20:40:26] <Thom_Holwerda> i aint holding my breath[20:42:45] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[20:42:48] *** Sil2100 has joined #haiku[20:45:38] <stargater> efika for haiku :-)[20:46:23] <stargater> 2009 IBM make a new Thinpad for Haiku OS ....[20:46:32] <stargater> +k[20:46:37] <Thom_Holwerda> well, if i really do get it (pigs are already flying anyway) and i dont liek it[20:46:46] <Thom_Holwerda> i can always donate it to axl or whoever[20:46:47] <MYOB> IBM? By 2009 there won't be IBM consumer computers[20:46:48] <MYOB> ever[20:46:55] *** Nies has quit IRC[20:46:56] <MYOB> Lenovo[20:47:14] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[20:47:23] <stargater> IBM -> Lenova[20:47:39] <MYOB> build quality has collapsed[20:50:23] <pyCube> stinksbads havent always been crap?[20:52:46] <kokito> berlios is back?[20:53:02] <MYOB> wasn't 5 mins ago[20:53:15] *** dr_evil has joined #haiku[20:53:27] <DeadYak> MYOB: it's been back since this morning[20:53:41] <stargater> kokito: <@korli> stargater: it's working again[20:53:46] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dr_evil[20:53:55] <stargater> hi dr_evil[20:54:49] *** Kernel86 has joined #Haiku[20:55:03] <dr_evil> svn up time[20:55:37] <MYOB> DeadYak not for me[20:55:53] <Sil2100> So it's finally up, huh?[20:56:07] <dr_evil> it's back since 3 hours[20:56:22] <MYOB> hrm, shitewire tells me its not contactable[20:57:38] <MYOB> svn: Unknown hostname 'svn.berlios.de'[20:57:52] <dr_evil> uh ahh, svn --force remove MediaStreamDecoder.cpp really worked, the file is gone (but I have backup...)[20:58:03] <MYOB> FWA has its... niggles as a BB system but clearly the ISP has problems of its own[20:58:09] *** Master199 has quit IRC[21:00:26] *** Nies has joined #haiku[21:00:56] <MYOB> ah now it works[21:01:30] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[21:01:37] <dr_evil> CIA doesn't seem to get triggered[21:02:08] <MikeW> dr_evil: CIA stopped responding for my projects updates too[21:02:30] <MYOB> do the emails fire? *hits check*[21:02:50] <MYOB> they do[21:02:55] *** MYOB has quit IRC[21:03:32] *** MYOB has joined #haiku[21:03:37] <MYOB> vision is just too easy to close[21:05:23] <CIA-17> marcusoverhagen * r20779 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/media/media-add-ons/dvb/ (MediaStreamDecoder.cpp MediaStreamDecoder.h): A BMediaDecoder wrapper that uses a callback for GetNextChunk()[21:05:23] <CIA-17> marcusoverhagen * r20780 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/media/media-add-ons/ (10 files in 2 dirs): added Jamfile for dvb.media_addon and fixed compilation problems after refactoring[21:07:07] *** Master199 has joined #haiku[21:10:03] <pyCube> hmm...[21:10:44] <CIA-17> marcusoverhagen * r20781 /haiku/trunk/src/apps/ (Jamfile tv/Jamfile tv/VideoView.cpp tv/config.h tv/tv.rdef): added Jamfile for DVB TV application and fixed compilation problems after refactoring[21:10:44] <CIA-17> marcusoverhagen * r20782 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/drivers/misc/ (Jamfile test.c): a test driver for driver testing[21:13:32] *** gotaku has joined #haiku[21:14:40] <gotaku> Is there an easy way to add files to a Haiku image in Linux?[21:15:09] <CIA-17> marcusoverhagen * r20784 /haiku/trunk/build/jam/HaikuImage: DVB media-addon and TV application added[21:15:15] <MYOB> clearwire clearly have dodgy DNS[21:15:22] <MYOB> couldn't resolve xiph.org there[21:17:05] *** tgzuiop has joined #haiku[21:23:54] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[21:23:55] *** tgzuiop is now known as dr_evil[21:23:56] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dr_evil[21:26:46] *** siarzhuk has quit IRC[21:35:12] *** kr1stof_ has joined #haiku[21:41:15] *** MYOB has quit IRC[21:43:45] *** kr1stof has quit IRC[21:50:22] <dr_evil> I'm trying to svn update on my slow machine for the 5th time now (it always aborts with conflicts), and each try needs 7 to 9 minutes....[21:50:44] <geist> on beos? I can see that[21:50:53] <geist> the amount of stats required probably nails beos pretty hard[21:51:23] <dr_evil> yes on beos[21:51:40] <dr_evil> on Linux it takes about 11 seconds (but the machine is much faster, too)[21:51:50] <geist> i forgot how slow the beos fs was until the other day when i wanted to copy that entire checked out svn[21:51:53] <geist> svn tree, it took hours[21:52:39] <dr_evil> yeah thats really bad, I know[21:54:06] <gotaku> Is beos fs slow in Haiku too?[21:56:32] <dr_evil> the caching will be better[21:57:47] <Begasus> g'night peeps[21:58:15] *** Begasus has quit IRC[21:59:27] <pyCube> so what doe sberlios do for you guys?[22:00:04] *** tgzuiop has joined #haiku[22:01:13] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[22:01:14] *** tgzuiop is now known as dr_evil[22:01:16] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dr_evil[22:01:46] <dr_evil> I'm still trying to debug this strange problem where a driver's free hook isn't called[22:02:24] <dr_evil> great, now DSL broke down, this means a 6th svn update...[22:10:56] *** pyCube2 has quit IRC[22:11:03] *** pikapika has quit IRC[22:11:08] *** guma has joined #haiku[22:12:35] <dr_evil> done! great, now compiling...[22:16:09] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[22:16:10] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[22:16:30] *** pikapika has joined #haiku[22:17:33] <dr_evil> plop mmu_man[22:17:49] <mmu_man> re[22:17:59] <dr_evil> sv is back :)[22:18:02] <dr_evil> svn[22:18:06] <mmu_man> yeah saw that[22:21:38] <dr_evil> mmu_man I'm trying to debug http://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/1168 but it's not reproduceable properly[22:22:59] <geist> i think i saw something in a similar area[22:23:02] *** rgb has joined #haiku[22:23:10] <geist> if you turn on DEBUG the module code blows up with an assert with some invalid state[22:23:15] *** asmodai has left #Haiku[22:23:20] <geist> which sounds kind of suspiciously similar[22:23:37] <geist> i looked at it a bit, but frankly i dont understand the new driver loading scheme, and in general how the module stuff works[22:24:04] <dr_evil> I only know that the cx23882 driver doesn't do this in R5, and the the stripped down test driver works on both[22:24:44] <dr_evil> geist I understand[22:25:05] <dr_evil> I'm still trying to debug, but the beos machine has very long turnaround times[22:25:27] <dr_evil> geist are you using a script to copy files to a test machine?[22:25:38] <geist> i build on linux[22:25:41] *** oco has joined #haiku[22:26:03] <geist> and yeah, i have a script that does a build, ftps the image to beos, then telnets in and runs a script on the beos side that[22:26:21] <geist> mounts the image, wipes out the oild /Haiku partition, copies it over, syncs, unmounts, and reboots[22:26:39] <dr_evil> can you share that? I think I could use it, too[22:26:51] <geist> i think i already have it up, lemme look[22:27:04] <geist> okay, here's the linux part[22:27:05] <geist> http://tkgeisel.com/stuff/linux-doit[22:27:23] <geist> here's the beos half[22:27:26] <mmu_man> dr_evil remember fds can be shared between teams[22:27:28] <geist> http://tkgeisel.com/stuff/beos-doit[22:28:29] <dr_evil> thanks, I'll try that (but dont have time today)[22:28:56] <mmu_man> dr_evil for now I'll first have to see if my install still reboots at boot[22:29:13] <mmu_man> maybe the usb code I built with debug on[22:31:48] *** ChristianHJW has joined #haiku[22:32:59] <dr_evil> I still would like to finish PXE boot, but I'm stuck[22:33:02] <dr_evil> at http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/haiku/haiku/trunk/src/system/kernel/fs/vfs_boot.cpp?rev=19780&r1=19774&r2=19780[22:33:29] <dr_evil> we need to bring up network stack[22:33:54] <mmu_man> yeah[22:34:14] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[22:34:37] <kokito> dr_evil & mmu_man![22:35:09] <dr_evil> hi kokito[22:36:00] <kokito> howdy dr_evil[22:36:20] <pikapika> very silly question as for the state of the network stack, but is vlan support envisaged ?[22:36:39] * DeadYak prods _hugo[22:36:40] <mmu_man> vpn ?[22:36:42] <mmu_man> sure[22:37:00] <mmu_man> it might actually work someone with ssh[22:37:04] <pikapika> no no vlan[22:37:07] <mmu_man> but I need to port my tuntap driver[22:37:17] <mmu_man> oh the nic driver ?[22:37:32] <mmu_man> send a diff :)[22:37:56] <pikapika> vlan same as for network switchs :)[22:38:04] <pikapika> multiple ip on the same interface[22:38:09] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[22:38:10] <pikapika> for instance[22:38:20] <mmu_man> ah, interface aliases[22:38:53] <pikapika> mostly[22:38:56] <mmu_man> dunno if it's in yet[22:39:00] <mmu_man> BONE had that[22:39:06] <mmu_man> though it didn't really work well[22:39:14] <pikapika> :)[22:39:33] <pikapika> like this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlan[22:39:58] <pikapika> not only aliases[22:41:48] *** ChrisHJW has quit IRC[22:42:14] <mmu_man> hmm bridging..[22:44:30] <dr_evil> hmm beos machine still compiling[22:47:36] <DeadYak> mmu_man: I remember BONE KDLing on a regular basis when I tried to use that :P[22:50:10] *** Nies has quit IRC[22:51:09] *** Sil2100 has quit IRC[22:52:34] <mmu_man> I said it didn't work well[22:52:45] <mmu_man> DeadYak no its not the same as "ipalias"[22:53:10] *** Euver has quit IRC[22:55:05] *** StylusEater_Work has left #haiku[22:56:41] <dr_evil> bone was always unstable for me when using ipalias. lets not talk about bone[22:57:32] <mmu_man> that was *not* ipalias[22:57:43] <mmu_man> btu adding an aliased interface[22:57:50] <mmu_man> had to write a tool for it[22:58:54] <dr_evil> whatever it was called, it crashed too often[23:02:04] <dr_evil> still compiling :/[23:02:36] *** Nies has joined #haiku[23:06:46] <mmu_man> $ "/boot/home/build_output/obj.x86//ifalias/ifalias" eth0.1 /dev/net/tulip/0 0[23:06:47] <mmu_man> $ ifconfig[23:06:48] <mmu_man> eth0.1 Hardware Type: Ethernet HWaddr 00:c0:f0:22:c1:2e[23:06:48] <mmu_man> MTU: 1500 Metric: 0 broadcast[23:06:49] <mmu_man> RX packets:507746 errors:1 bytes:530297109 mcasts:0[23:06:49] <mmu_man> TX packets:479439 errors:0 bytes:395382838 mcasts:0[23:06:50] <mmu_man> collisions: 0[23:06:51] <mmu_man>[23:06:53] <mmu_man> /dev/net/tulip/0 Hardware Type: Ethernet HWaddr 00:c0:f0:22:c1:2e[23:06:55] <mmu_man> inet addr: 192.168.0.2 Bcast: 192.168.0.255 Mask: 255.255.255.0[23:06:58] <mmu_man> MTU: 1500 Metric: 0 up broadcast[23:06:59] <mmu_man> RX packets:507746 errors:1 bytes:530297109 mcasts:0[23:07:01] <mmu_man> TX packets:479439 errors:0 bytes:395382838 mcasts:0[23:07:04] <mmu_man> collisions: 0[23:07:23] <mmu_man> anyway[23:07:40] *** rgb has quit IRC[23:10:32] *** arikato has quit IRC[23:11:37] *** TTRanger has joined #haiku[23:15:00] <dr_evil> at 4700th target....[23:15:18] <mmu_man> ouch[23:19:27] <dr_evil> i'm going to sleep in 10 minutes, just watching a tv series[23:20:35] <DeadYak> I read 47000 at first glance, I was wondering how the target count went up so much[23:22:25] *** tgzuiop has joined #haiku[23:22:34] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[23:22:36] *** tgzuiop is now known as dr_evil[23:22:39] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dr_evil[23:23:20] <dr_evil> Populating Image...[23:23:32] *** kb7sqi has joined #haiku[23:31:19] <gotaku> When the kernel crashes how do you possibly go about finding out what happened?[23:32:43] *** MrRagga has quit IRC[23:34:18] *** guma has quit IRC[23:34:52] *** Nies has quit IRC[23:37:37] *** axeld has joined #Haiku[23:37:37] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o axeld[23:37:59] *** MYOB has joined #haiku[23:42:31] <dr_evil> mmu_man; axeld DVB nearly works :) http://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/1172[23:43:29] <axeld> dr_evil: cool, but what does this error mean? :-)[23:43:50] <dr_evil> something is still wrong ;)[23:43:51] <axeld> dr_evil: btw, have you found the time to look into #1168 yet?[23:43:58] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[23:44:05] *** kr1stof_ has quit IRC[23:44:32] <dr_evil> no, I just finished svn update and compiling 5100 targets on the slow maching about 10 minutes ago[23:44:37] <dr_evil> but it's still reproduceable[23:46:36] *** ekdahl has left #haiku[23:47:15] *** Nies has joined #haiku[23:48:36] <mmu_man> hmm I know I have errors with my ESDSink media node on format negociation IIRC[23:48:41] <mmu_man> but don't remember which[23:49:17] <dr_evil> berlios is dead again[23:50:06] <dr_evil> unicorn and hornet nfs problems, https://monitor.berlios.de/berlios-status/index.php[23:50:52] <axeld> not again :-/[23:50:55] <axeld> I just managed to update[23:51:13] <axeld> But the svn repository still seems to be update[23:51:16] <mmu_man> same here[23:53:54] * mmu_man pets mphipps[23:54:30] * DeadYak pets mmu_man[23:55:17] *** kr1stof has left #haiku[23:55:55] *** pikapika has quit IRC[23:56:17] <dr_evil> snake: WARNING - load average: 12.99, 11.72, 7.59[23:56:41] <mmu_man> eh[23:56:49] <mmu_man> do we have loadavg() even in Haiku yet ?[23:57:05] <dr_evil> sheep: WARNING - load average: 22.70, 18.03, 10.56[23:57:06] <mmu_man> I have one I wrote for XEmacs but it's a nice hack with a snoozing thread[23:57:19] <dr_evil> don't know, thats from berlios status page[23:58:03] <mmu_man> lots of http down: CRITICAL - Socket timeout after 10 seconds[23:59:49] *** pikapika has joined #haiku