April 22, 2007 
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April 22, 2007 [00:00:14] <dr_evil> I never tried that, but i think it should[00:00:33] <umccullough> i have used image mounter without problems[00:00:38] <umccullough> and mountimage should work[00:00:41] <ajupiter> okay, well, i downloaded the image & put it on a partition, but i can't mount or boot it[00:01:27] <kokito> ajupiter, I was able to mount the image from Zeta, so it should be possible from R5 too.[00:01:36] <umccullough> meianoite, the file is actually on the site![00:01:37] <umccullough> http://haiku-os.org/files/tvm_scheduler.zip[00:01:44] <meianoite> o_O[00:01:48] <kokito> LOL[00:01:51] <ajupiter> okay, thanks.. i'll try messing around with it some more :)[00:01:54] <umccullough> and it's referenced from the article in edit mode...but i guess it doesn't show the user?[00:02:08] <meianoite> no, it doesn't =P[00:02:42] <umccullough> meianoite, let me check on that - i guess i can add a link to the url i just sent you at the least[00:05:58] <umccullough> meianoite, can you see it at the bottom now?[00:06:20] <umccullough> if not, then i guess the site isn't very smart and is showing an old rev to anonymous users :([00:06:55] <umccullough> ajupiter, you may have to download an image mounting tool from bebits[00:07:07] <meianoite> I still can't[00:07:14] <umccullough> meianoite, what if you login?[00:07:58] <umccullough> meianoite, i don't have full priveleges on the site, so maybe my changes must be moderated first or something, who knows...[00:08:17] *** ajupiter has quit IRC[00:08:20] <meianoite> when I log in it works indeed[00:08:34] *** ajupiter has joined #haiku[00:08:41] <umccullough> interesting[00:08:54] <umccullough> i suspect anonymous users get a cached version[00:09:00] <umccullough> for performance reasons ;)[00:09:11] <umccullough> might clear up by tomorrow[00:11:23] *** TLF has quit IRC[00:11:32] <meianoite> could be[00:11:56] <meianoite> it seems drupal ain't thaaaat smart afterall ;)[00:13:12] <kokito> umccullough, yes, anonumous users are cached.[00:13:46] <kokito> meianoite, the website is on an (IMHO) underpowered shared server.[00:13:56] *** ajupiter has quit IRC[00:14:48] *** MikeW has joined #haiku[00:15:08] <umccullough> meianoite, it's probably just generated static cached HTML for performance... not uncommon[00:15:19] *** MikeW has joined #haiku[00:15:28] <meianoite> guys, I'm just kidding[00:15:31] <kad77> kokito: are the haiku "team leaders", haiku foundation members, "lead developers", etc, defined on www.haiku-os.org somewhere?[00:15:40] <umccullough> ok, bbib, gotta put this new proc in :)[00:15:52] *** umccullough has quit IRC[00:17:17] <dr_evil> geist i need to leave, filed this as http://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/1168[00:17:28] <kokito> kad77, I don't think all the info is in a single page. the team leaders are shown on each team page; see http://haiku-os.org/about/teams for links to each team page[00:17:56] *** HarvestMoon has joined #haiku[00:18:10] <kokito> kad77, also, there is no Haiku Foundation, but rather Haiku Inc. > http://haiku-os.org/about/haiku_inc[00:18:22] *** ajupiter has joined #haiku[00:18:50] <kad77> thanks. Are the members of the Haiku Foundation listed? (Their functional roles, ie, decision making abilities, veto power, etc)?[00:19:04] <kad77> Ok, Haiku, Inc[00:19:17] <kokito> kad77, not that I know of.[00:19:54] <kad77> That is an omission that can't be overlooked. The code copyrights are also attributed to them, no?[00:20:30] <kokito> very legitimate point kad77; you may want to ask those questions on the Haiku mailing list. you are more likely to get an answer.[00:20:32] <ajupiter> okay, i got the disk image to mount in R5, but it won't boot.. :|[00:20:41] <kad77> kokito: thx for your help[00:21:18] <kad77> btw, you have helped create a wonderful website, :D[00:21:43] <kokito> kad77, I have the same questions as you have about Haiku Inc., btw. :)[00:23:03] <kad77> yeah, I will write up a formal letter this week. This issue needs to be transparent to the community[00:23:07] *** pikapika has joined #haiku[00:23:11] <Pulko_Mandy> +++[00:23:13] *** Pulko_Mandy has quit IRC[00:23:51] <pikapika> hello[00:24:10] *** jevin has joined #haiku[00:24:45] <ajupiter> when i try to boot from the image i get the "Failed to Load OS" message[00:27:34] *** ajupiter has quit IRC[00:27:47] *** ajupiter has joined #haiku[00:28:20] <ajupiter> i got it mounting fine though![00:32:04] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[00:32:17] <umccullough> mmm. dual core goodness[00:32:32] *** mats has quit IRC[00:32:37] <[Beta]> wb[00:37:24] *** wildur_ has quit IRC[00:40:41] <meianoite> cool, umccullough[00:46:10] *** ajupiter has quit IRC[00:49:10] *** MauriceK is now known as Maurice^sleep[00:52:20] *** ajupiter has joined #haiku[00:53:10] *** rgb has joined #haiku[00:55:52] *** forQed has joined #haiku[00:58:21] *** meianoite has quit IRC[00:58:49] *** MrRagga has quit IRC[00:59:05] *** MrRagga has joined #haiku[00:59:47] *** gotaku has joined #haiku[00:59:55] <gotaku> Hello.[01:00:59] <gotaku> Am I the only one who doesn't like the current Jam build system?[01:01:33] *** Mazon is now known as mazon[01:01:36] <_hugo> dr_evil: i wasn't here earlier[01:01:38] *** arikato has joined #haiku[01:02:03] <ajupiter> i can't get the disk image to boot from itself or the boot disk.. does it have to be the first or the active parition??[01:05:17] *** forQed has quit IRC[01:12:01] <skoe> gotaku: Why? It seems alright?[01:12:52] <gotaku> It's not bad... I just don't really like it.[01:18:33] *** arikato has quit IRC[01:18:34] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[01:23:53] *** TTRanger has joined #haiku[01:26:55] *** BGA has quit IRC[01:27:10] <mmadia> hi TTRanger[01:27:25] <TTRanger> mmadia! How are you today?[01:28:02] <mmadia> decent. i cracked my shin pretty good yesterday. how'd the auto downloader turn out?[01:28:41] <TTRanger> mmadia Pretty well...it was very challenging, but what you made stuff happen![01:28:54] <TTRanger> ahhh... I've found a nice background for the textbox in Vision.[01:29:06] <TTRanger> very easy on the eyes, good with black text[01:29:23] <TTRanger> Red: 189 Green 216 Blue 193[01:29:42] <TTRanger> You can just feel your eye muscles relax with that background.[01:30:03] <TTRanger> mmadia I'm playing around with BeOS Max these days. Every putzed with that?[01:30:18] <mmadia> only with the 3.0 / 3.1b1 version.[01:30:27] <ajupiter> that is a nice color![01:30:29] <TTRanger> This one is 4 BETA[01:30:36] <TTRanger> ajupiter Pleasant, isn't it? :-)[01:32:28] <mmadia> is 4beta more r5 or haiku?[01:32:34] *** rgb has quit IRC[01:32:49] <TTRanger> mmadia I assume it's primarily R5.[01:33:08] <TTRanger> BeOSRADIO is running on it right now, and SoundPlay wouldn't have played on Haiku at present.[01:34:11] *** MrRagga has quit IRC[01:34:20] *** MrRagga has joined #haiku[01:36:25] <TTRanger> mmadia So are you on crutches now? Did you have to go to the doctor?[01:36:40] *** arikato has joined #haiku[01:36:51] <mmadia> nope. just whining like a little girl about it : )[01:37:00] <TTRanger> hehe[01:37:08] <mmadia> swelled to a half-tennis ball though.[01:37:20] <TTRanger> ooooouch!![01:37:26] * TTRanger hands mmadia an icepack[01:38:36] <BryanV> mmadia - OUCH[01:38:43] * mmadia passes it back and hands TTRanger a beer : )[01:38:49] <TTRanger> BryanV![01:39:12] * TTRanger waves hand over it and turns it into a teatotaller's drink and swills it down. :-)[01:39:19] <mmadia> a BryanV sighting! quick call the papers[01:39:22] <TTRanger> hehe[01:40:16] *** forQed has joined #haiku[01:42:51] *** realrbman has quit IRC[01:46:55] *** umccullough has quit IRC[01:47:22] <BryanV> mmadia - i've been around here quite a bit lately.[01:48:42] * mmadia taps fingers together .... "Excellent."[01:49:56] *** arikato has quit IRC[01:51:19] *** Minbari has joined #haiku[01:52:46] *** forQed has quit IRC[01:54:30] <TTRanger> BryanV How've you been?[02:07:27] *** ajupiter has quit IRC[02:09:01] *** Minbari has quit IRC[02:09:44] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[02:11:50] *** HarvestMoon has quit IRC[02:12:04] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[02:13:37] *** jtorgers has joined #haiku[02:14:21] *** ajupiter has joined #haiku[02:16:06] *** randomity has joined #haiku[02:18:34] *** mmadia has quit IRC[02:27:22] <kad77> gotaku: if you are still around, check out http://www.cmake.org/Wiki/CMake_FAQ if you are unhappy with Jam. I am considering getting a group together to implmenet this system instead.[02:29:21] * JonathanThompson wonders if BryanV is still paying attention[02:30:06] *** MikeW has quit IRC[02:30:10] *** ajupiter has quit IRC[02:30:43] <DeadYak> I thought CMake was more of a replacement for autoconf than a build system in its own right?[02:31:03] <JonathanThompson> I haven't looked at it yet.[02:31:23] <kad77> If you read about it, it is more than that. Its capable of building Haiku on multiple targets[02:31:38] <kad77> and hosts[02:35:14] <_hugo> kad77: why are you unhappy with jam?[02:38:53] *** pikapika has quit IRC[02:41:00] *** arikato has joined #haiku[02:43:01] *** randomity has quit IRC[02:50:04] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[02:50:14] *** ablyss has quit IRC[02:50:33] *** ChrisHJW has quit IRC[03:07:10] *** jevin has quit IRC[03:08:02] *** Karina`` has quit IRC[03:08:25] *** MikeW has joined #haiku[03:10:56] *** forQed has joined #haiku[03:26:58] *** jsgotangco has quit IRC[03:29:56] *** gotaku has quit IRC[03:30:53] *** Yez has joined #Haiku[03:35:20] *** jtorgers has quit IRC[03:36:33] *** M199 has joined #haiku[03:38:29] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[03:38:59] <BryanV> mmadia[03:39:15] <mmadia> BryanV[03:43:41] *** Master199 has quit IRC[03:43:42] *** M199 is now known as Master199[03:44:40] <mmadia> ?[03:45:58] *** skoe has quit IRC[03:47:00] <BryanV> has anyone had a problem with ./configure running rediculously slow on BeOS?[03:47:49] *** meianoite has joined #haiku[03:48:13] <mmadia> i haven't built in months.[03:48:37] <BryanV> man it's dog slow...[03:49:07] <umccullough> BryanV, ./configure doesn't do much of anything though right?[03:49:19] <umccullough> doesn't it just create the BuildConfig?[03:49:46] <mmadia> is http://developer.berlios.de/projects/haiku/ down?[03:50:14] <umccullough> mmadia, i think berlios is having severe problems[03:50:25] <umccullough> starting yesterday[03:50:53] <umccullough> svn.berlios.de times out for me[03:51:34] <mmadia> thanks.[03:52:11] <TTRanger> wow, I just transferred 6 gigs across my LAN into the BeOS max machine.[03:52:21] <TTRanger> Using net_server...not bad![03:53:17] <BryanV> umcullough, no, buildconfig generates .configure[03:53:24] <BryanV> from configure.ac[03:53:29] <TTRanger> BryanV (Varner, right?)[03:53:32] <BryanV> Yup[03:55:41] <umccullough> BryanV, are you talking about creating ./configure for buildtools?[03:55:50] <umccullough> i don't understand...[03:55:57] *** forQed has quit IRC[03:56:07] <BryanV> I'm trying to port / compile another app.[03:56:28] <BryanV> As part of that, I run ./configure. It runs rediculously slow on BeOS compared to other platforms.[03:56:31] <umccullough> BryanV, oh...ok - so you're talking about GNU's configure :P[03:56:49] <BryanV> Yeah[03:56:49] <umccullough> as opposed to Haiku's configure[03:56:57] <BryanV> Yes. Haiku's is blazing fast. :-)[03:57:00] <BryanV> GNU's sucks.[03:57:04] <umccullough> yeah, cuz it doesn't do anything :D[03:57:19] <BryanV> I love our toolchain.[03:57:54] <TTRanger> BryanV Are you working actively in the Haiku project these days?[03:58:10] <BryanV> To an extent, yes.[03:58:11] *** meianoite has quit IRC[03:58:33] <TTRanger> BryanV What are you working on? (stop me if I'm being too much of a pest, I've just missed chatting with you!)[03:59:40] <BryanV> I've been trying to get Haiku going on my work laptop...[03:59:53] <BryanV> a Dell Lattitude D810. It runs remarkably well, if you remove the usb stack[04:00:03] *** ablyss has joined #haiku[04:00:09] <BryanV> Other than that, i've got a bit too much going on IRL to help out at the moment.[04:00:13] <TTRanger> How much is supported BryanV? Do you have sound too?[04:00:21] <BryanV> No, I don't have sound.[04:00:32] <TTRanger> That's always the sticky wicket on laptops :-)[04:00:35] <BryanV> network, gfx, trackpad, trackpoint, keyboard. :-)[04:00:42] <DeadYak> configure scripts run like ass on BeOS because its fork() is very very slow[04:00:49] <TTRanger> But that's neat that Haiku will work on a laptop at all already![04:00:57] <BryanV> It's AC97, and it gets detected... I just can't get anything out of it.[04:01:02] <TTRanger> Ah[04:01:09] <BryanV> Ah, DeadYak - I've often wondered.[04:01:31] <DeadYak> that + crappy disk cache[04:01:36] <BryanV> Had a fried who ended up straceing the thing, one function was getting called a -ton- as I recall.[04:01:38] <DeadYak> but fork is the main reason[04:01:57] <BryanV> the fork issue makes sense.[04:09:29] *** petterhj has quit IRC[04:12:27] <BryanV> I need an updated autoconf / automake, etc.[04:12:28] <BryanV> ugh.[04:12:32] <BryanV> I hate these 'tools'.[04:13:51] *** mmadia has quit IRC[04:30:22] *** jin has joined #haiku[04:31:23] <jin> hi all[04:34:02] *** santagada has joined #haiku[04:37:07] <_hugo> berlios, sigh[04:38:54] * DeadYak pets _hugo[04:39:16] <jin> what's wrong hugo?[04:39:21] <jin> berlios got your repo?[04:39:27] <_hugo> the svn is down :-)[04:40:58] <jin> :S[04:41:06] *** BryanV has quit IRC[04:42:02] *** BryanV has joined #haiku[04:42:10] <DeadYak> wb[04:50:33] *** Yez has quit IRC[04:50:42] *** Yez has joined #Haiku[04:59:01] *** santagada has left #haiku[05:01:34] * _hugo tickles[05:01:52] * DeadYak squeaks[05:02:42] <_hugo> :-)[05:03:41] * _hugo needs another gig of mem[05:03:58] <geist> memory is cheap[05:04:16] <_hugo> 100 bucks :-/[05:04:34] <_hugo> hopefully next month[05:06:39] <_hugo> geist: the fastest way in the current kernel to grab a bunch of pages?[05:07:06] <DeadYak> geist: is there any particular reason that the slab allocator doesn't tend to be exposed to userspace?[05:07:07] * umccullough just got 2gb memory at Frys for $49 after rebate[05:07:37] <_hugo> umccullough: i need so-dimm, which is generally more expensive[05:07:47] * umccullough goes to check the sodimm price[05:07:52] <DeadYak> _hugo: laptop?[05:07:55] <_hugo> macmini[05:07:57] <DeadYak> oh[05:08:12] <_hugo> i already have a 1gig stick in, it takes another[05:08:47] <umccullough> 1gb DDR2 PC5300 kingston SODIMM was $19.99 USD after rebate[05:08:54] <_hugo> uh[05:09:01] <umccullough> too bad the sale was one-day :)[05:09:02] <DeadYak> instant or mail-in?[05:09:07] <umccullough> mailin :P[05:09:12] <umccullough> $49 before rebate[05:09:14] <_hugo> and before rebate?[05:09:15] <DeadYak> yeah, I don't see that working too well when he's in .pt[05:09:15] <_hugo> ah[05:09:28] <umccullough> woner what shipping cost would have been[05:09:34] <umccullough> i woulda bought it for you...[05:09:50] <_hugo> oh, if it was that cheap i would buy it now[05:09:54] <umccullough> i'll keep an eye out for another good deal[05:09:54] <DeadYak> shipping via UPS or FedEx or anything like that would probably have been somewhere between 20 and 50 bucks[05:10:07] <umccullough> _hugo, unfortunately the pre-rebate markdown was 1-day only also :([05:10:14] <_hugo> umccullough: cool, thanks[05:10:15] <_hugo> oh[05:10:27] <umccullough> but Frys does weekly specials[05:10:31] <umccullough> so i'll watch[05:10:46] <_hugo> thanks[05:11:10] <_hugo> actually, im looking at crucial.com, where i usually buy, and its cheaper now since i've checked[05:11:15] <DeadYak> _hugo: what FSB speed?[05:11:17] <umccullough> ok[05:11:37] <_hugo> DeadYak: it takes pc2-5300[05:11:43] <DeadYak> ah[05:11:46] <DeadYak> I show $59 on crucial[05:11:58] <_hugo> yep[05:11:59] <DeadYak> http://www.crucial.com/store/partspecs.aspx?imodule=CT12864AC667[05:12:03] <umccullough> _hugo, they had 2.5" 80gb drives for $59 out the door too[05:12:16] <umccullough> only 5400rpm though :/[05:12:17] <_hugo> umccullough: oh[05:12:22] <_hugo> i want to buy a 7200rpm drive[05:12:25] <_hugo> firewire[05:12:28] <umccullough> don't blame you ..[05:12:33] <_hugo> the internal one is too slow[05:12:54] <umccullough> isn't it only FW400 on that thing?[05:13:23] <_hugo> yeah[05:13:26] <DeadYak> FW400's faster than most of the internal HDD interfaces I thought[05:13:30] <_hugo> i have a usb drive which eats my cpu[05:13:37] <_hugo> so ill go for firewire now[05:14:03] <_hugo> usb controllers use too much cpu on the host[05:15:28] <_hugo> 70 euros for the memory with VAT and shipping, so about what i thought[05:18:07] <_hugo> ah, no, 60[05:18:33] <DeadYak> _hugo: go favorable exchange rate :P[05:18:34] <_hugo> this memory went down 15 euros since i last checked, one month ago or so[05:19:10] <_hugo> DeadYak: well, it doesnt matter much, stores still overprice in europe and its virtually impossible to import anything without a lot of costs[05:19:32] *** arikato has quit IRC[05:19:51] <DeadYak> _hugo: hehe[05:20:06] <jin> that sucks[05:20:27] <jin> someone should bitchslap the europian market then :P[05:20:36] <_hugo> apple for instance fixes prices in a rather "clever" way. $899 in the US, 899 euros in europe[05:20:43] <DeadYak> noticed that[05:20:50] <_hugo> 900 euros = $1225[05:20:56] <DeadYak> though that made more sense back when the euro and dollar were almost 1:1[05:21:43] <_hugo> yeah[05:22:10] <jin> what's the ratio now?[05:22:20] <DeadYak> closer to 1.5[05:22:27] <jin> o_O yikes[05:22:47] <_hugo> i think its 1:1.36[05:22:48] <_hugo> or something like that[05:23:09] <DeadYak> 1.36 is right[05:23:14] <DeadYak> http://www.xe.com/[05:23:36] <jin> I keep forgetting 'bout that site[05:23:42] <MikeW> the pound hit a 26 year high against the dollar recently[05:23:43] <MikeW> 1 British pound = 2.0033 U.S. dollars[05:25:28] <jin> bah to US dollars :P[05:25:37] <_hugo> keep spending those dollars in iraq[05:26:03] <_hugo> ahah, as we chat, just saw john mccain mention that he doesn't agree with what most americans think[05:26:05] <_hugo> hurray[05:26:29] <geist> yeah, he's not doin too well so far[05:26:43] * jin is canadian[05:26:58] <DeadYak> geist: see my question earlier?[05:27:49] <geist> now i did [05:29:09] * jin brb for drink[05:31:19] * jin back[05:31:34] <geist> congratulations[05:31:45] <geist> i hope your trip went wel[05:31:46] <geist> well[05:31:47] <DeadYak> hah[05:31:54] <jin> why thank you kind sir[05:31:56] <geist> DeadYak: do you want me to answer the question?[05:32:16] <DeadYak> yes please :)[05:34:33] <geist> it doesn't get exposed the same reasl you dont expose say the kernel malloc (what it currently has)[05:34:45] *** knoedel has joined #haiku[05:35:01] <DeadYak> well, right, but I mean, a similar kind of allocation policy would make sense in a lot of cases for userspace apps too[05:35:03] <geist> it allocates kernel virtual space, so the pieces are only availabkle in kernel land[05:35:15] <geist> sure, and in taht case nothing keeps you from writing a user space slab allocator[05:35:25] <DeadYak> so I'm just wondering why no OS that I know of exposes a slab-like interface in userspace by default[05:35:28] <geist> personally i dont think they're the magic bullet everyone makes them out to be[05:35:40] <DeadYak> since the mechanism to implement it is theoretically already there[05:35:43] <geist> but they do tend to map to kernel data structures pretty well *if* you design stuff in mind[05:35:44] <DeadYak> well yeah, not for the general case[05:35:49] <_hugo> i think a slab allocator is usual for a lot of stuff[05:35:57] <_hugo> usual? useful[05:36:08] <geist> it's useful provided everyone plays along[05:36:22] <geist> downsides are it's relatively expensive memory wise[05:36:34] <_hugo> it doesnt completely solve the fragmentation problem, but helps[05:36:38] <geist> upsides are you can scale it very well for SMP (which is a big part of bonwick's design)[05:36:49] <_hugo> the problem is we have no means of introducing "repacking" without a lot of complexity[05:37:01] <geist> and you can use it as a cache for half-constructed objects, and have the slab reclaim data for[05:37:14] <DeadYak> yeah, I read bonwick's paper[05:37:23] * _hugo licks bonwick[05:37:28] <geist> data for you, which helps with the whole problem when multiple systems have cached data[05:37:52] <geist> _hugo: also in answer to your previous question about getting a bunch of pages, create an area[05:38:07] <DeadYak> hoard doesn't implement a slab allocator does it?[05:38:09] <geist> if you need more than one page for long term usage, it's the best way to do it[05:38:24] <geist> well, lots of malloc implementations have slab like stuff in it[05:38:29] <_hugo> geist: is it pageable?[05:38:41] <geist> if you guys are still using my little malloc in the kernel, it has some of the same underlying ideas[05:38:44] <_hugo> i know linux's kmalloc() resorts to the slab allocator for small sizes[05:38:47] <geist> _hugo: depends on how you mark the pages[05:38:55] <_hugo> ah cool[05:38:56] <geist> an area is the raw vm object[05:39:13] <geist> one or more pages of virtual space, with whatever permissions you want[05:39:14] <jin> uh-oh, actual development talk![05:39:15] * jin hides[05:39:16] <geist> and you can clone it, etc[05:39:31] <_hugo> geist: cool, its what i need.[05:39:38] <geist> it's relatively expensive to create and destroy (like dont do it hundreds of times a second) but otherwise it's fine[05:39:53] <geist> and if you're just gonna create a bunch of one type of object that's gonna stick around, it's the best way to do it[05:40:11] <geist> aside from a slab allocator, and even then it may still be the best way if they're never going to be freed[05:40:12] <_hugo> yep, im starting a slab allocator[05:40:22] <_hugo> for the network stack. maybe it gets picked up for the rest as well[05:40:24] <umccullough> i know the hoard allocator is in the repo[05:40:45] <DeadYak> umccullough: yeah, it's supposed to be a good malloc impl for multithreaded apps[05:40:58] <geist> a new general allocator for haiku is somewhat more complicated than most folks make it out to be[05:40:59] <umccullough> DeadYak, i remember axel added it about a year ago[05:41:08] <geist> axeld knows this, which is probably why he hasn't started yet[05:41:17] <geist> it may even require a rewrite of some major kernel components[05:41:22] <DeadYak> geist: kernel or userspace?[05:41:28] <geist> sorry, kernel space virtual allocator[05:41:32] <DeadYak> ah.[05:41:40] <_hugo> well, what i have in mind is perfectly usable for the network stack[05:41:42] <geist> ie, whatever replaces the current kmalloc/kfree[05:42:07] <geist> most notably there are vm reentrancy issues, and the issue of how to grow/shrink it[05:42:08] <DeadYak> geist: what components would be affected?[05:42:11] <DeadYak> ah.[05:42:30] <geist> right now i cheated in newos and had a simple malloc/free that allocates a fixed chunk up front and never frees it[05:42:36] <geist> (creates a wired area)[05:42:43] <geist> which avoids all the reentrancy issues[05:42:58] <geist> but knowing that i was gonna eventually replace it[05:43:15] <geist> i stayed away from doing allocations in certain components of the system to avoid the problem that was gonna happen later[05:43:24] <umccullough> geist, is that like the Luposian allocator?[05:43:28] <geist> but given all the development that has happened on haiku, my guess is folks have broken that model[05:43:41] <geist> which may mean some new additions have to be refactored[05:44:05] *** umccullough has quit IRC[05:44:21] <geist> most notably what happens when you alloc() and the VM needs to allocate more kernel space, and needs to grab another physical page, which causes another one to be paged out, etc[05:44:30] <geist> right now malloc/free dont block[05:45:11] <geist> in the future all places where you malloc/free (slab_alloc/slab_free, whatever you want to call it) will need to be able to block and potentially go do stuff for potentially *seconds* of time, with 10s of threads involved, etc[05:45:28] <geist> which causes some recursive problems inside the vm when you allocate objects inside there[05:45:39] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[05:45:49] <umccullough> ok, there's a software product i'll never install again[05:46:10] <umccullough> stupid POS threw a dialog box on uninstall that was blank with yes/no buttons[05:46:15] <umccullough> clicked yes and it rebooted[05:46:22] <geist> in newos there were a bunch of places where I specifically did stuff in a 'weird' way (allocated structures way early, did some work, freed them later) that on the surface doesn't make any sense[05:46:31] <geist> but it was because in the future the allocator may block, etc[05:46:43] <pyCube> umccullough: which product?[05:46:56] <umccullough> pyCube, some funky sound recorder[05:47:01] <umccullough> OpD2D i think[05:47:25] <DeadYak> geist: thanks for the clarification :)[05:47:43] <_hugo> geist: as long as we have a B_WOULD_BLOCK :-)[05:48:04] <DeadYak> or B_DONT_DO_THAT[05:48:07] <geist> perhaps. that's why lots of kernel allocators have all sorts of funny flags you have to pass the allocation request[05:48:34] <geist> sometimes they even have little pools of memory that never get used unti you pass some flag like 'oh shit I need this right now because I'm in the process of paging out memory'[05:49:19] <geist> unfortunately the bottom of many kernels have little heiristics to try to avoid painting themselves into a corner that all in all are just hacks[05:49:26] <geist> but a lot of time you just can't avoid em[05:49:37] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[05:49:53] <umccullough> hueristics?[05:49:59] <geist> but ultimately the kernel space is a finite resource[05:50:09] <geist> you can almost always find a way to run it out of something[05:50:14] <geist> the trick is how gracefully the system fails[05:50:23] <umccullough> heuristics actually :)[05:50:37] <geist> yeah, that's what I get for being in 3 conversations at once[05:50:41] * umccullough kicks himself[05:50:51] <geist> but i did switch back from my laptop so i can actually type better here[05:51:13] <geist> I still haven't gotten too used to typing much with the macbook pro, I tend to hit the keys to lightly or something[05:51:27] <umccullough> i hate laptop keyboards[05:51:32] <geist> back on my trusty ol MS split keyboard, I can most of the time hit the keys[05:51:46] <umccullough> original? or elite?[05:52:06] <geist> MS natural ergo keyboard v4000[05:52:11] <geist> one of the newer black ones[05:52:23] <umccullough> mmm - as long as it doesn't have a screwy arrow/nav keys[05:52:27] <geist> they went though about a 5 year phase where they destroyed the design and they were useless[05:52:31] <umccullough> yes[05:52:34] <umccullough> exactly :P[05:52:35] <geist> but this last year they went back to a good design[05:52:44] <umccullough> good to hear, maybe i'll get one again :D[05:53:01] <geist> yeah I still have the old 2001 model, but it was starting to get a bit old[05:53:20] <umccullough> geist, i had 2 of them... but the keys started to require a lot of force :P[05:53:30] <geist> yep, mine started to get sticky[05:53:41] <_hugo> :-D[05:53:44] <geist> still have both of the old ones, and 2 of the new ones (one at home, one at work)[05:53:50] *** knoedel has quit IRC[05:53:53] <umccullough> otherwise they were awesome - tore down and cleaned up once a year or so[05:53:57] <geist> i have to type on exactly the same keyboard most of the time, so I always have to get a pair[05:54:14] <geist> though i think the one at home is a little stickier than the one at work[05:54:20] <geist> I should swap em out, like rotating tires[05:54:23] * umccullough doesn't want any further info[05:54:42] <geist> no, not gooey, but in that when i got it it was a little hard to hit the keys[05:54:45] <umccullough> ;)[05:54:47] <geist> and after they get broken in, it's nice[05:55:02] <geist> as a warning: the new black ones are definitely mushier than the older ones[05:55:15] <geist> so if you're a clicky type, you'll probably hate it[05:55:56] <umccullough> hmm... doesn't bother me too much i don't think[05:55:57] <geist> you can see the corner of it in http://tkgeisel.com/pics/oldcomputers/medium/appleiigs.jpg[05:56:12] <umccullough> IIgs![05:56:20] <geist> http://tkgeisel.com/pics/oldcomputers/medium/next.jpg[05:56:48] <umccullough> wow, the iigs didn't come with an apple extended keyboard stock ;)[05:57:12] <geist> heh yeah. the interface is ADB so you can plug whatever you want into it[05:57:24] <umccullough> :)[05:57:27] <geist> though after that picture I dug out the original chicklet keyboard[05:57:35] <umccullough> I picked one of those up for my SE - but I think it died[05:57:44] <geist> somewhere along the line I somehow ended up with a bunch of ADB keyboards[05:57:46] <_hugo> i wish there keyboards with integrated touchpads or trackpoint[05:57:55] <geist> I think it was like one of my roommate's caches or something[05:57:57] <_hugo> there were[05:58:08] <geist> sure there are[05:58:14] <geist> but typically the keyboard itself is terrible[05:58:19] <_hugo> right[05:58:49] <JonathanThompson> I once tested out on the Apple 2gs at school what would happen if you plugged in and used more than one keyboard at once :)[05:58:56] <geist> actually i'm kind of a fan of the sun type 6 usb keyboards[05:58:58] <_hugo> i dont like to move the hands away from the keyboard so having a touchpad/trackpoint would really help[05:59:03] <geist> I'd use one if they made a split version[06:00:33] <geist> you have that extra row of keys on the left that might be handy[06:00:58] <geist> and the infamous blank key[06:01:12] <geist> http://docs.sun.com/source/806-4743/images/keyboard_a.tif.gif[06:01:17] <umccullough> i have a crappy alps keyboard with touchpad[06:01:24] <umccullough> and it's split[06:02:33] * _hugo doesn't like split keyboards[06:02:36] <jin> oh god[06:02:39] <umccullough> oh wait, no it's not split[06:02:46] <umccullough> funny..thought it was[06:02:48] <jin> I used to have an old keyboard like that[06:02:49] <umccullough> but it's PS/2[06:03:03] <jin> I like my keyboard now, gotten really used to it[06:03:06] <geist> and i always end up mapping caps to ctrl[06:03:11] <jin> I find it so hard to use keyboards with splits in them[06:03:48] <umccullough> the only problem i had with the split MS Natural was that they put F5 on the left side instead of keeping next to F6[06:04:19] <jin> my F keys are split three by three[06:04:25] <jin> I kinda just got used to it[06:04:50] <jin> I'll always prefer four by four though[06:04:59] <jin> but, don't fix it if it's not broken, right?[06:05:00] <geist> yeah, f5 is to the left of the split[06:05:13] <geist> and in general the F keys are pretty small on a lot of the ms naturals[06:08:29] <geist> so it goes.[06:20:39] *** ChrisHJW has joined #haiku[06:22:28] *** ChrisHJW has quit IRC[06:29:38] *** MikeW has quit IRC[06:36:14] *** ChrisHJW has joined #haiku[06:41:16] *** stargater has quit IRC[06:44:21] *** arikato has joined #haiku[06:45:49] * jin drags a large horn to the top of the channel[06:45:52] * jin blows the horn[06:47:06] *** absabs has joined #haiku[06:51:54] *** jin has quit IRC[06:57:50] <geist> ring ring ring ring ring ring ring[06:57:51] <geist> bananaphone![07:02:50] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[07:08:47] <umccullough> lol[07:09:03] <umccullough> one of the morning shows here in Sacramento plays that all the time as background music ;)[07:09:27] <pyCube> youre in Sac eh?[07:09:42] <umccullough> yep[07:09:52] <umccullough> well, i work in sac anyway[07:09:59] <umccullough> i live 1 hour northeast[07:10:04] <pyCube> i used to cut school all the time to drive down to sac to go to The Beat and a couple other record stores[07:10:11] <umccullough> down?[07:10:17] <umccullough> where you ats?[07:10:20] <geist> redding?[07:10:21] <pyCube> i am from Red Bluff[07:10:26] <umccullough> i'm in GV :D[07:10:29] <geist> hmm, redding is quite a few more hours north actually[07:10:30] <umccullough> grass valley[07:10:40] <pyCube> grass valley is great[07:11:09] <pyCube> i grew up in rb.. last place i lived in nor cal was a little town on the edge of Lassen Natl Park[07:11:24] <pyCube> but i live in the phoenix az area now[07:11:29] <umccullough> ah yes...[07:11:43] <umccullough> some people tell me it's similar there[07:11:53] <umccullough> except hotter than hell ;)[07:11:58] <pyCube> heh[07:12:00] <geist> oh you poor central valley folk[07:12:19] <pyCube> Red Bluff actually has a higher record temp.. but here in AZ we have a much longer hot season[07:12:44] <geist> i'm sort of of the idea that phoenix should die[07:12:59] <pyCube> bi really like Tempe[07:13:01] <pyCube> I[07:13:20] <pyCube> the rest of the area could go aaway.. hehe[07:13:35] <geist> flagstaff is kind of nice, the area at least[07:13:40] <pyCube> yeah[07:13:45] <pyCube> i like flagstaff a lot[07:13:55] <pyCube> 'minds me of home[07:14:28] <geist> east side of central valley, heading up to lake tahoe reminds me of central tx[07:14:33] <geist> around jackson, nice little town[07:14:40] <pyCube> i just moved into tempe though.. a couple blocks form ASU.. nice area..[07:15:27] <pyCube> depending on the job offer, i may be headed back to cal.. north bay area[07:15:28] *** Begasus is now known as Begasus_bbl[07:15:36] <geist> woot. bay area rules[07:15:51] <pyCube> i lived in berkeley for almost 2 years[07:15:59] <umccullough> hmm.. let us know if you do :)[07:16:00] <geist> berkeley even better[07:16:14] <geist> i'm down in icky ol sunnyvale now[07:16:15] <pyCube> isan rafael etc isnt oo bad[07:16:19] <geist> need to move back up to the city[07:16:20] <umccullough> i have a friend down in emeryville i need to visit soon :P[07:16:21] <pyCube> ack![07:16:32] <geist> though it's not that bad, it's just suburban[07:16:47] <pyCube> that is the definition of too bad[07:17:16] <geist> nah, i've lived in worse. like say, fremont[07:17:21] <pyCube> hehe[07:17:24] <pyCube> nasty[07:17:25] <geist> or daly city[07:18:05] <pyCube> the stretch of cities between vacaville and valejo is pretty bad too[07:18:16] <umccullough> ew[07:18:33] <geist> a 20 mile radius around vacaville is pretty bad[07:18:40] * umccullough concurs[07:19:04] <pyCube> please.. let me move to hercules[07:20:07] <pyCube> where i live in Tempe actually reminds me a lot of the east bay.. like the piedmont/rockridge part of oakland[07:21:54] <pyCube> i bought beos r4.5/bible bundle at Fry's in Fremont[07:21:56] <pyCube> hehe[07:22:40] * umccullough stopped by fremont frys last week[07:23:11] <umccullough> came up from Monterey Thursday night ;)[07:23:31] <pyCube> i spent a lot of time in Monterey as a kid..[07:23:37] <pyCube> was a regular vacation spot[07:23:39] <umccullough> must have been nice :)[07:23:42] <umccullough> my wife loves it there[07:24:00] <pyCube> i really like santa cruz[07:24:03] <umccullough> 4 hour drive for me though...[07:25:46] <JonathanThompson> Hi guys.[07:25:47] <pyCube> But my fav area over there is the coast north of sf.. i spent several months bumming around and hitchhiking up and down between fort bragg and arcata when i was in my early 20's..[07:26:31] <JonathanThompson> It just occurred to me: chances are Haiku won't be safely considered stable if Robin Hood dies over time the way it has been.[07:27:57] <_hugo> JonathanThompson: if an application crashes, is it the operating system that isn't stable? and i believe it's early to throw such conclusions[07:28:24] <JonathanThompson> But the track record Robin Hood has is that it runs stable enough on BeOS 5.03, _hugo.[07:28:35] <_hugo> JonathanThompson: is Haiku as BeOS R5.03?[07:28:36] <JonathanThompson> Of course, perhaps that needs to be retested with a given setup.[07:28:39] <_hugo> *as stable as[07:28:51] <JonathanThompson> No, and that gives a comparison point, _hugo.[07:29:30] <umccullough> pyCube, my wife's other favorite spot is Fort Bragg :P[07:29:31] <JonathanThompson> If Robin Hood under BeOS 5.03 can't be made to die like I can do it under Haiku, that's a good indication that something still isn't quite as good as it needs to be, I'm thinking.[07:29:36] <_hugo> i don't see the point of making such comparisons considering the current state[07:29:57] <JonathanThompson> It's something to put on the list as near-final testing considerations, though.[07:30:03] <umccullough> JonathanThompson, want I should start robinhood on R5 and you can kill it there too?[07:30:11] <_hugo> in fact your conclusion reflects the reality, haiku is not stable. i'm not sure anyone was claiming that though[07:30:12] <JonathanThompson> No time like as soon as you know of something that may be useful as a test to record the idea for later.[07:30:22] <JonathanThompson> That'd be a good comparison test, umccullough.[07:30:39] <_hugo> that test seems pointless to me. who said Haiku is stable?[07:30:58] <JonathanThompson> I never indicated that, I was making a forward-looking statement, _hugo :)[07:31:20] <_hugo> JonathanThompson: well, it didn't make much sense, to be honest[07:31:29] <JonathanThompson> Not at this point, true.[07:31:54] <_hugo> there are several key points that are currently identified as needing work[07:32:02] <geist> LIES.[07:32:03] <JonathanThompson> I realize that.[07:32:03] <_hugo> discussing stability before those points are addressed[07:32:08] <_hugo> makes no sense[07:32:21] <_hugo> anyway, back to magazines :-)[07:32:47] <JonathanThompson> I think you're missing what I've been saying deliberately: I stated that Robin Hood would be a good test to keep in mind for comparison, and I thought I made it pretty clear it was a long-term thing, but apparently not.[07:32:50] <geist> mind you it also may be that the app itself isn't very stable if parameters get out of bounds of what it was designed on[07:33:01] <geist> ie, it may not deal with particular error codes that it should be able to, etc[07:33:04] <JonathanThompson> That's always possible, geist.[07:33:11] <umccullough> yes, it could even rely on some funky R5 crap ;)[07:33:26] <umccullough> it is OSS though[07:33:26] <_hugo> JonathanThompson: i dont think BeOS apps are not good comparison[07:33:29] <geist> did i mention that google earth the app is the shit?[07:33:30] <_hugo> *good for[07:33:30] <JonathanThompson> That's why perhaps it'd be a good test to see if it is far more stable in BeOS 5.03, since we know what it currently does in Haiku .[07:33:37] <geist> i can browse around with this thing for hours[07:33:58] * JonathanThompson notes geist has become another Google Earth addict[07:34:13] <umccullough> heh, i did my google earth time... and then i had to stop using it so I could get work done :P[07:34:23] <umccullough> got my manager hooked on it though ;)[07:34:24] <geist> doubly so that i have this monster video card now[07:34:32] <geist> i run it at super hi res, etc[07:34:39] * JonathanThompson wonders when someone will great Google Earth Anonymous (GAA!)[07:34:47] <umccullough> GEA?[07:34:50] <JonathanThompson> E, GEA![07:34:53] <JonathanThompson> er, even.[07:35:28] * JonathanThompson must have caught what geist had last night: bad typiitis[07:35:38] <geist> yeah[07:35:59] <geist> need to get back to hackin this little net bootloader for this embedded arm[07:36:14] <geist> gonna hack something that dhcps an address and then fetches the system over tftp or something[07:36:29] <geist> would use an existing one but it basically needs to fit into about 8k of rom, and not much more ram[07:56:00] *** jevin has joined #haiku[08:06:43] *** Euver has joined #haiku[08:08:08] <pyCube> hehe.. am i the only one here that has to have: alias sudp=sudo in his profile?[08:09:13] <JonathanThompson> Could be, pyCube :)[08:09:38] * JonathanThompson might need to alias l; as ls...[08:10:02] <pyCube> i do xs for ls a lot too[08:10:06] <JonathanThompson> Or df as cd[08:10:14] <umccullough> chpwn=chown?[08:10:15] <JonathanThompson> Ack, that won't work :([08:10:16] <pyCube> \i meant cd[08:10:19] *** BNickName has joined #haiku[08:10:36] <JonathanThompson> Boy, that'd REALLY confuse anyone using my system and wanting to do df :P[08:11:03] <JonathanThompson> Wait, perhaps it isn't df I mistype.[08:11:04] <pyCube> on the c=64 back in the day, i could have used alias..as i often found myself 'rub'ing programs[08:11:32] <pyCube> load"*",8,1:rub[08:11:50] * umccullough suspects poor typing skills[08:11:51] <JonathanThompson> Well, if you REALLY want to foul someone up at the command line, redefining a single character on the keyboard will do it nicely :P[08:12:19] * JonathanThompson never had a typing class, despite trying to get one all through out junior high and high school[08:12:35] <pyCube> hehe...i should write a really irritating google style "did you mean...?" thing for the terminal[08:12:39] <JonathanThompson> Throw poor coordination and dyslexia in there to boot.[08:13:29] <JonathanThompson> It took me awhile, but I can in bursts type faster than most people, without looking at the keys.[08:13:43] <JonathanThompson> I still need to see what I type on the screen to catch my goofs and fix them very quickly, though.[08:14:06] <umccullough> heh..same here - i use backspace a lot ;)[08:14:46] <JonathanThompson> It wasn't until sometime in 96 I made the quantum leap from a couple finger rapid hunt-and-peck (42 wpms correct!) to typing differently, without looking.[08:15:47] <geist> switching to a split keyboard helped me a lot[08:15:48] <JonathanThompson> I'm convinced that a proper typing class would work well if they had students type in C++ code :)[08:15:57] <geist> previously I was crossing over too much[08:16:02] <JonathanThompson> I don't think that makes much difference for me, geist.[08:16:31] <JonathanThompson> I wish I still had my old Microsoft Natural 1.0 keyboard, but it died in November after about 11.5 years of constant use.[08:16:58] <JonathanThompson> I think it had about 8 keys with nothing readable on them by that point.[08:17:54] <JonathanThompson> A clean-freak would have totally freaked out with it.[08:24:47] <CHodapp_> I get sick of keyboards that randomly decide to put the \ key underneath the ESC key and stick another 3 keys directly above the arrow keys[08:32:00] <umccullough> bed[08:32:01] <umccullough> 'night[08:32:10] *** umccullough has left #haiku[08:36:29] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[08:52:52] *** Sil2100 has joined #haiku[08:53:05] <Sil2100> Hi everyone[08:53:59] <Sil2100> ho, berlios still down I see[08:55:54] *** Begasus_bbl is now known as Begasus[08:57:11] <{V}> JonathanThompson, 42 words per milisecond? I'm impressed :)[08:57:47] <JonathanThompson> :)[08:58:02] <JonathanThompson> It's a wonder the keyboard lasted 11+ years like that :P[08:58:08] <{V}> hahahahahaha[08:59:15] * JonathanThompson expects the keyboard controller on any PC is incapable of that throughput.[08:59:44] <JonathanThompson> Heck, not even USB 1.1 is capable of that.[09:00:01] <JonathanThompson> Er, wait, I gues it is...[09:00:09] <JonathanThompson> 12 Mb/s.[09:00:30] * JonathanThompson should be sleeping[09:00:55] <{V}> good luck with that[09:01:12] <JonathanThompson> You realize that chat programs are going to warp kids minds at a young age into speaking about themselves in the 3rd person :)[09:01:40] <Sil2100> heh[09:02:04] <{V}> I don't think every chat programs supports /me[09:02:18] <JonathanThompson> Enough of them do, though.[09:02:35] * {V} guesses ;)[09:03:22] <JonathanThompson> Of course, a funny observation I had the reason to make is that Yahoo! issues Windows laptops with Google's search bar installed for IE :P[09:05:40] <Sil2100> That seems a bit uneconomical[09:06:35] <Sil2100> And unlogical too[09:06:35] <JonathanThompson> What I think is happening is their computer supplier gets a bit from Google, and that allows them to sell it for slightly less, so... that happens.[09:11:43] <JonathanThompson> Hmmm... BeIDE is pointedly ignoring my font settings.[09:16:32] *** PulkoMandy has joined #haiku[09:16:55] *** llama233 has joined #haiku[09:18:33] *** Begasus is now known as Begasus_bbl[09:26:56] *** stargater has joined #haiku[09:27:08] <stargater> re[09:39:55] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[09:42:31] *** FinnB has joined #haiku[09:56:29] *** emitrax has quit IRC[09:56:56] *** BNickName has quit IRC[10:04:54] *** mazon is now known as Mazon[10:05:40] *** FinnB has quit IRC[10:06:27] <stargater> berlios down ?[10:06:51] <Sil2100> So it seems[10:07:02] <stargater> hmm[10:12:08] <geist> been down all weekend[10:17:03] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[10:17:03] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[10:17:26] <stargater> moin mmu_man[10:17:38] <mmu_man> plop[10:24:43] *** FinnB has joined #haiku[10:25:24] <FinnB> Hi all[10:25:38] <stargater> hi FinnB[10:25:46] <FinnB> Anyone that likes to answer a C++ question? :-)[10:26:26] <stargater> mmu_man, is a c++ guro[10:26:54] <FinnB> I have an app that loads data from a text file (ifstream, >> operator)[10:27:17] <FinnB> But data is only loaded at all if I start the app from the commandline.[10:27:52] <FinnB> If started via double click, it seems that data does not get loaded.[10:29:51] <mmu_man> FinnB I suppose you use a relative path to that file[10:29:52] <FinnB> Hi Stargater, mmu_man is offline, will try again later. People seem to be asleep.[10:30:11] <FinnB> Hi mmu_man :-) Didn't see you in the list.[10:30:19] <mmu_man> Tracker (the app that starts apps on double click) run the in ~/ as workign directory[10:30:23] <mmu_man> *not* the folder the app is in[10:30:37] <FinnB> Relative path: Yes I do.[10:31:07] <FinnB> Ah, I see. I will change that. Thanks for the hint.[10:34:52] <mmu_man> another option is to use resources[10:35:27] <mmu_man> oddly BAppFileInfo doesn't provide an easy way to find the folder[10:35:47] *** Sil2100 has quit IRC[10:35:59] <mmu_man> usually you can get the full path in argv[0][10:36:18] <mmu_man> BeOS enforces that even when argv[0] is given differently in exec()[10:36:30] <mmu_man> Haiku won't probably but for GUI apps it should work[10:36:51] <mmu_man> another option is to use get_next_image_info() and the first one has the path to the app[10:37:20] <FinnB> mmu_man: argv[0] is very helpful, didn't think about that.[10:37:41] <mmu_man> it's not 100% reliable in unix[10:37:50] <FinnB> Isn't get_next_image() used for loading add-ons? I am just loading a simple text file.[10:37:51] <mmu_man> because it stuffs things in like "-sh" for login shell[10:37:59] <mmu_man> R5 forced teh full path in instead[10:38:22] <mmu_man> no it's for getting info on the images[10:38:42] <mmu_man> unix doesn't have an equivalent...[10:38:54] <mmu_man> the other day on osnews there was an article on relocating apps :)[10:41:51] *** GreyGhost has joined #haiku[10:44:33] *** llama233 has quit IRC[10:49:05] <mmu_man> [revol@Zeta /Data/haiku/trunk]# svn up[10:49:05] <mmu_man> ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host[10:49:06] <mmu_man> svn: Connection closed unexpectedly[10:49:08] <mmu_man> WTF[10:49:13] <mmu_man> been doing this since yesterday[10:49:15] <_hugo> berlios is down[10:50:15] <mmu_man> ah :)[10:55:06] <stargater> cu later[10:55:28] *** stargater has quit IRC[10:58:04] <kokito> good night folks[10:58:09] *** kokito has quit IRC[10:59:54] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[11:01:01] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[11:01:30] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[11:03:08] *** Euver has quit IRC[11:03:11] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[11:04:10] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[11:05:00] *** kr1stof has quit IRC[11:07:53] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[11:12:05] *** siarzhuk has joined #haiku[11:12:06] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[11:12:09] *** emitrax__ has joined #haiku[11:16:58] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[11:17:25] <Jixt> hi[11:25:48] *** Maurice^sleep is now known as MauriceK[11:29:00] *** GreyGhost has quit IRC[11:48:09] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[11:50:08] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[11:52:59] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[11:56:55] *** [Beta] has quit IRC[11:58:41] *** [Beta] has joined #haiku[12:05:43] *** bobwhoops has quit IRC[12:05:54] *** bobwhoops has joined #haiku[12:09:34] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[12:09:37] *** emitrax__ has quit IRC[12:11:46] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[12:16:49] *** FinnB has quit IRC[12:22:01] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[12:26:23] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[12:35:23] *** Pulko_Mandy has joined #haiku[12:39:26] *** Jixt has quit IRC[12:41:10] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[12:43:47] *** PulkoMandy has quit IRC[13:06:27] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[13:12:10] *** Jixt has quit IRC[13:22:59] *** emitrax has quit IRC[13:24:01] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[13:49:30] *** emitrax__ has joined #haiku[13:57:34] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[14:11:00] <_hugo> ah, dear slab.[14:11:51] *** joejaxx has joined #haiku[14:18:39] *** Pulko__Mandy has joined #haiku[14:23:49] *** Pulko_Mandy has quit IRC[14:48:37] *** magnetron has joined #haiku[14:56:47] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[14:58:35] *** kb7sqi has joined #haiku[14:59:03] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[14:59:18] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[14:59:48] *** Thom_Holwerda has joined #haiku[15:00:48] *** arikato has quit IRC[15:02:52] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[15:03:40] *** emitrax__ has quit IRC[15:10:00] *** Begasus_bbl has quit IRC[15:15:07] *** Grackle has quit IRC[15:15:17] *** kb7sqi has quit IRC[15:15:42] *** TLF has joined #haiku[15:19:34] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[15:22:21] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[15:37:34] *** arikato has joined #haiku[15:39:00] *** emitrax has quit IRC[15:42:17] *** DaaT has joined #haiku[15:50:30] *** santagada has joined #haiku[15:59:18] *** MrRagga has quit IRC[16:10:26] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[16:15:41] *** Thom_Holwerda has quit IRC[16:21:49] *** MauriceK has quit IRC[16:22:27] *** noph has quit IRC[16:24:25] *** jevin has quit IRC[16:27:36] *** Jixt has quit IRC[16:32:36] *** TLF has quit IRC[16:41:08] *** MikeW has joined #haiku[16:58:57] *** santagada has quit IRC[17:02:19] *** Liquid_Metal has joined #haiku[17:05:41] *** korli has joined #haiku[17:05:42] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o korli[17:05:57] <Liquid_Metal> Why aren't my vision settings saved in Haiku?[17:07:27] <petterhj> I don't know exactly why, but it's a known problem, and is not just happening for you :)[17:08:16] <Liquid_Metal> ok, didn't find any mention of it on haiku-os.org[17:08:29] *** jevin has joined #haiku[17:09:21] <Liquid_Metal> but it does feel nice to use vision in haiku native :D[17:13:36] *** emitrax__ has joined #haiku[17:18:42] *** ablyss has quit IRC[17:25:41] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[17:25:46] <Jixt> Hi[17:26:00] <Jixt> can anyone help me with a svn question[17:26:15] <Jixt> on one pc I've done a checkout of my project[17:27:04] <Jixt> later on I tried to checkout my project on another pc.[17:27:28] <Jixt> but I get the following problem "svn: no such file or directory"[17:27:58] <korli> svn is not installed :)[17:28:12] <Jixt> can't you checkout a project to 2 different computers with one user?[17:28:30] <korli> no problem with that[17:29:10] <TTRanger> Howdy Jixt, korli[17:29:19] <Jixt> hi TTRanger[17:29:46] *** mats has joined #haiku[17:31:06] <Jixt> svn is installed korli[17:31:14] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[17:31:29] <Jixt> I can do a anonymous checkout ;-)[17:32:01] <Jixt> The problem I have is on a Zeta machine :p[17:32:51] <korli> atm berlios.de is failing for me anyway[17:33:30] <Jixt> jip, I know. But I'm trying on osdrawer.net[17:40:47] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[17:41:07] <Jixt> ok, it's working now[17:41:35] <umccullough> Liquid_Metal, there's something wrong with the BMessage flattening i suspect[17:41:49] <umccullough> Vision stores settings as a flattened BMessage[17:41:50] <Jixt> I installed the svn version proposed by osdrawer[17:41:57] <Jixt> this version works ;)[17:42:52] * umccullough wishes DeadYak would look into the Vision settings issue in Haiku ;)[17:44:40] <DaaT> he's just a slacker[17:44:41] <DaaT> :P[17:50:16] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[17:51:05] *** Liquid_Metal has quit IRC[17:57:14] *** Grackle has joined #haiku[17:58:57] *** jevin has quit IRC[18:02:02] *** MikeW has quit IRC[18:06:27] *** [Beta] has quit IRC[18:06:52] *** MikeW has joined #haiku[18:07:16] *** emitrax__ has quit IRC[18:13:16] *** emitrax__ has joined #haiku[18:13:16] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[18:27:04] *** absabs has quit IRC[18:32:39] *** kb7sqi has joined #haiku[18:34:41] <magnetron> hi, i read about yesterday and i must say it's so nice, i am trying it in qemu now. even if it's non kernel-accelerated, it runs fine. i saw in a video that i can make apps "stick" to the desktop (without window borders) how do i do that?[18:40:00] <umccullough> magnetron, I suspect you're referring to replicants - some apps support them, some don't[18:41:33] <magnetron> umccullough, yes, that's it. how do i use them?[18:41:54] *** Thom_Holwerda has joined #haiku[18:42:05] <Thom_Holwerda> evening all[18:42:43] *** MrSolsken has joined #haiku[18:43:19] *** MrSun has quit IRC[18:43:31] *** korli has quit IRC[18:43:36] <petterhj> magnetron, if the application supports it, you'll see a hand in the down right corner which you can drag (you'll probably need to enable "Show Replicants" in Deskbar configuration)[18:44:02] <petterhj> magnetron, of the Haiku base apps, Clock supports it at least :)[18:44:32] <magnetron> ok, petterhj, thanks[18:48:02] *** flyinghippo has joined #haiku[18:49:35] *** [1]umccullough has joined #haiku[18:50:21] <[1]umccullough> magnetron, i think Haiku's calculator can be a replicant[18:50:32] *** umccullough has quit IRC[18:50:32] *** [1]umccullough is now known as umccullough[18:54:24] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[18:54:55] <magnetron> [1]umccullough: it is. nice[19:02:00] *** Mazon is now known as mazon[19:02:04] *** mazon is now known as Mazon[19:04:08] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[19:16:38] *** Yez has quit IRC[19:20:44] *** emitrax__ has quit IRC[19:21:16] <Ingenu> I don't remember is foo() a default constructor created by the compiler ?[19:21:33] <Ingenu> (ie if I don't declare it, it'll still be available)[19:29:15] <geist> yeah, I think so[19:29:31] <geist> if you dont declare it, it'll emit one for you[19:34:43] *** stargater has joined #haiku[19:34:59] <stargater> hi[19:39:04] <TTRanger> P=O[19:39:12] <TTRanger> PaOlo[19:39:23] <TTRanger> oops, sorry, can't type today![19:39:40] <TTRanger> procton[19:39:45] <TTRanger> there... :-)[19:49:08] *** GreyGhost has joined #haiku[20:05:21] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[20:06:09] *** meianoite has joined #haiku[20:06:17] <meianoite> hey guys[20:08:03] <geist> Ingenu: i just did a test of the default constructor thing[20:08:08] <geist> if you dont emit it, it emits one inline[20:10:12] <meianoite> geist, are you there? mind if I ask a question that's probably been answered *countless* times before? =P[20:10:13] <meianoite> when you have some data structure (say, a bit map that flags idle processors, like on FreeBSD's ULE scheduler) that must be shared among all processors, is there any way to avoid flushing the caches every time this structure is updated? In this case, the only side effect of not flushing the caches and leaving the local (cached per CPU) copies out of sync is causing some workload unbalance among pro[20:10:14] <meianoite> cessors, but I can easily think of nasty examples that simply *demand* synced copies... Well, either that, or a specific interprocessor interrupt that tells them to fetch *only* that particular data structure[20:10:55] <geist> not really, no[20:11:07] <geist> you could put it in uncached memory, and just avoid the caching problem[20:12:17] <meianoite> and unconditionally eat the memory trip penalty =P[20:12:23] <geist> right[20:12:54] <geist> i dont actually know what the best solution for that is[20:12:56] <meianoite> is this IPI alternative viable under (NewOS'|Haiku')s kernel?[20:13:03] <geist> though triggering an IPI is probably right out[20:14:14] <meianoite> eh, sorry, non-nativeness kicking in: "right out" == "the best alternative I can think of ATM" or "right out" == "just as lame"?[20:14:31] <geist> not feasible[20:14:36] <geist> not for consideration[20:15:52] <meianoite> ouch. but... why?[20:16:20] <geist> the fact that it's a few thousand cycles on both the sender and receiver cpu to trigger an IPI[20:16:27] <geist> if not more[20:17:13] <meianoite> so it's actually heavier than non-cached access?[20:17:35] <geist> absolutely.[20:17:39] <geist> IPIs are very heavy[20:17:49] <meianoite> yay. I didn't know that.[20:18:06] <geist> less heavy on other arches, but x86 is what we got[20:18:10] <meianoite> I should probably eventually devote some time to study modern processor architecture models[20:18:26] <meianoite> x86 in particular[20:18:43] <geist> smp is totally a tacked on thing for x86, so there's no native support for it, except that the caches are fully coherent[20:19:03] <meianoite> huh?[20:19:22] <meianoite> well, if the caches ARE fully coherent, than what I've been saying here all along is a non-issue =P[20:19:23] <geist> which part of the statement do you have a problem with?[20:19:32] <geist> you betcha, they're fully coherent[20:19:33] <geist> it's a speed thing[20:19:44] <geist> you're stalling, waiting on the other cpu to flush it's cache[20:20:06] <geist> if you do that all the time with a busy shared data structure, you end up with all the cpus waiting all the time[20:20:41] <geist> but that doesn't get really bad until 32 cpus or so[20:20:55] <meianoite> well, so it's definitely a non-issue on x86. SMP caches will never (visibly) get out of sync. so the x86 SMP cache is implemented with bus snooping, I assume[20:21:02] *** Sil2100 has joined #haiku[20:21:11] <geist> you bet it's an issue. it's a performance thing[20:21:15] <Sil2100> Hi everyone[20:21:16] <geist> it's not a *fatal* issue[20:23:30] <meianoite> hm, let me see if I got it. they are coherent in the sense that every write to memory locations aliased on more than one cache forces the flushing of those caches behind the curtains (i.e., hardware-driven)?[20:24:02] <geist> right, and a read from the same spot forces any other cpus with dirty data for that cache line to flush it[20:24:07] *** flyinghippo has quit IRC[20:24:27] <geist> though i guess by definition only one other cpu can have a dirty cache line[20:24:40] <meianoite> only that particular *line* or the *whole* cache?[20:24:50] <geist> that line, I'm sure. though it's implementation defined[20:25:03] <geist> well, no. it's worse than that[20:25:30] <geist> if cpu0 writes to address 4 (4 bytes) it'll have a dirty cache line (say address 0 - 31)[20:25:38] <geist> then cpu1 writes to address 8 (4 bytes)[20:26:08] <geist> i suppose cpu1 will force a flush of that cache line on cpu0[20:26:22] <geist> then load it and modify byte 8-11, and will then have a dirty cache line[20:26:48] <geist> then if cpu2 reads from anything in address 0 - 31, it'll force cpu 1 to flush the line first, then read it in[20:27:11] <geist> only one cpu can have any given cache line dirty[20:27:48] <geist> any read from the other cpus (including to load the cache line for a write) will force a flush of the dirty line[20:27:55] *** rgb has joined #haiku[20:28:01] <geist> so you can see how it can get expensive if you have a commonly shared piece of data[20:28:09] <meianoite> yep.[20:28:38] <geist> on massive systems (8+ cpus or so) it starts to get really important to split data structures to be as cpu local as possible[20:28:54] <geist> the timers are already cpu-local (since those go off all the time)[20:29:08] <meianoite> but I believe in the end that's innevitable... some structures are bound to be shared[20:29:43] <meianoite> unless you manage to restrict faults due to unsynced structures to be non-fatal ones[20:29:52] <geist> eventually, the trick there is to keep the updates (or if they're updated often, only from one cpu) to a minimum[20:30:18] <meianoite> *and* hint the MMU (or whatever) that such property holds[20:30:23] <geist> my gues is the trick is to think of the kernel has a series of clusters[20:30:33] <geist> say every 8 cpus you consider a cluster[20:30:35] <meianoite> but I don't even know if there's any architecture out there that supports this operation[20:30:49] <meianoite> ah, but I've been thinking about that all along.[20:31:08] <meianoite> I'm considering an architecture where every log(#CPUs) is a processor pool[20:31:15] <geist> yup[20:31:18] <meianoite> log2, actually[20:31:41] <meianoite> so uni- and dual- are always going to be 1 pool[20:31:55] <meianoite> quad- : 2 pools[20:31:58] <meianoite> octa: 3[20:31:59] <meianoite> and so on[20:32:04] <geist> well, my guess is this 2nd level of abstraction really should only kick in at around 4 or 8 cpus[20:32:20] <geist> below that there is per cpu structs (where possible)[20:32:34] <meianoite> heh, it happens to work like you said by design[20:32:37] <geist> ie, haiku can deal with one level of abstraction[20:32:46] <geist> well, I think we're talking about different things[20:33:21] <geist> in this 2nd level im thinking of (moving threads between clusters) you'd do that *very* rarely[20:33:35] <meianoite> actually, no, you said the 2nd level abstraction should kick in around 4 or 8. I said it does that by design, because log2(x) is only larger than 1 for x >= 4[20:33:36] <geist> like, entire processes would stay on a single cluster unless it's really really required[20:34:05] <geist> well, I could care less about log2[20:34:16] *** korli has joined #haiku[20:34:16] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o korli[20:34:54] <meianoite> ok, so say "position of the highest order bit that represents the number of CPUs on a system"[20:35:27] * geist senses meianoite going comp sci on me[20:35:38] <meianoite> I do that all the time, don't I ;)[20:35:42] <geist> yup[20:35:46] <meianoite> sorry ;)[20:35:47] <umccullough> math vs. common sense?[20:35:48] <meianoite> can't help it[20:35:51] <geist> basically, yeah[20:35:54] <umccullough> in the end, they usually align :D[20:36:01] <geist> i know the math, I just like to stay in the common sense side of it[20:36:14] <geist> or sometimes things are small enough that the math doesn't make any sense[20:36:26] <umccullough> or doesn't adversely affect the end result either way :P[20:36:31] <geist> I'm thinking of something like "every X cpus is a cluster" where X == 8[20:36:43] <geist> no math, just someone figured that 8 is a good number[20:36:56] <umccullough> with OSS, you can make assumptions now and fix it later for scalability ;)[20:36:57] <meianoite> well, I've been trained to write stuff like that as log2, even though it's just "the MSB flipped on that number"[20:37:08] <geist> whatever, say what you were gonna say[20:38:13] <geist> oh weird, I didn't realize that if I hold two fingers down on my trackpad and ctrl, i can zoom and pan around the screen[20:38:22] <umccullough> geist, macbook pro?[20:38:25] <geist> yeah[20:38:38] <umccullough> yeah, a guy i work with tried to show me all those tricks a few months ago...[20:38:47] * umccullough walked away in disinterest[20:39:02] <geist> can't imagine what's useful about it, but it's nifty nonetheless[20:39:03] <umccullough> i really like the multi-touch screen interfaces though...[20:39:17] <meianoite> well geist, that's it for the time being. you answered everything I had doubts about :) I'll eventyally come back to pester you a little more ;) but that's it for now[20:39:32] <geist> but yeah the shared bitmap I dont really know how to do efficiently[20:39:37] <geist> i should look at what linux does[20:40:04] <geist> putting it in an uncached piece of memory may not e so bad[20:40:12] <geist> taht way you punish the writers, not the readers[20:41:07] <meianoite> hm? how come? isn't reading supposed to take the memtrip penalty as well?[20:41:31] <geist> sure but you dont take the 'also wait for the other cpu to flush it's stuff before you can even get around to reading' penalty[20:42:35] <geist> the other thing that may be interesting is to instead of having an absolutely up to date bitmap of if the cpu is idle[20:42:57] <geist> just have a overall load of the cpu metric for the last second or so[20:43:08] <geist> and use that. that way it's not updated as often[20:44:27] <meianoite> hm, that's a good alternative[20:44:35] <meianoite> thanks! :D[20:44:53] <umccullough> speaking of linux...[20:44:59] <meianoite> (but of course I've got to try them both and bench them)[20:45:05] <geist> note that most of this is sacrificing up to date accuracy for speed[20:45:10] <umccullough> besides gentoo, what distro is a good mix of desktop/development usage?[20:45:14] <geist> it's going to be really hard to bench that stuff[20:45:35] <geist> since it'll just show up as lost time[20:46:21] <umccullough> hmm.. found a linux kernel source folder on my XP HD..[20:46:26] <meianoite> well, I'll have to try some Haiku image cooking and some scripts[20:46:41] <NeonLicht> umccullough: format c: XDDD[20:46:52] <umccullough> NeonLicht, that's basically what i intend to od[20:46:53] <umccullough> do[20:47:00] <NeonLicht> hahaha[20:47:05] <umccullough> i have a 500gb disk I wanna make my linux drive in this machine ;)[20:47:18] <NeonLicht> 500GB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wow!!!![20:47:18] <umccullough> and the 80gb disk with XP is going somewhere else[20:47:37] <umccullough> NeonLicht, i just picked up a 300gb disk for $59 USD yesterday...[20:47:53] <umccullough> actually Friday[20:48:00] <NeonLicht> I really need to get a new HDD[20:48:01] <NeonLicht> too[20:48:09] <Sil2100> Uh, I feel as if I came from stone age[20:48:36] <Sil2100> I thought 160 GB was a good result for a HDD[20:48:41] <umccullough> Sil2100, i would be too if prices hadn't become so damn cheap in the last year[20:48:58] <DaaT> bastards[20:48:59] <DaaT> :P[20:49:27] <umccullough> whenever I see "massively huge disk on the cheap" i have a hard time not buying one ;)[20:49:59] <DaaT> due to, I presume, the "massively huge" on the label?[20:50:01] <DaaT> :)[20:50:01] <geist> are you like me and really like copying lots of data around?[20:50:02] <umccullough> i have a 300gb UDMA disk that i put into my external USB enclosure the other day[20:50:03] <Thom_Holwerda> 500gb?[20:50:04] <Thom_Holwerda> not bad[20:50:08] <NeonLicht> hahahahahahahahahahah[20:50:11] <umccullough> geist, i copy a lot of DVD images around ;)[20:50:14] <Pulko__Mandy> I've nothing bigger than 40GB here and that's enough :)[20:50:19] <Thom_Holwerda> relatively recently i got a cube with 128GB drive[20:50:21] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[20:50:24] <Thom_Holwerda> it feels like so much space[20:50:27] <Thom_Holwerda> but 500gb[20:50:28] <Thom_Holwerda> wtf[20:50:32] <NeonLicht> does it have anything to do with any psicho problems, umccullough? XDDDD[20:50:40] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[20:50:41] * DaaT pets his twin 1TB raid0[20:50:44] <umccullough> psicho?[20:50:50] <DaaT> on my laptop!![20:51:02] <NeonLicht> psichological[20:51:11] <Thom_Holwerda> DaaT: you have one fo them over-the-top SPARC laptops or something?[20:51:12] <umccullough> DaaT, i figured if I eventually had enough 500gb disks lying around, maybe i'd actually use the RAID5 on this Mobo :)[20:51:13] <Thom_Holwerda> heh[20:51:18] <geist> now that i throw stuff on my nas box, i can't just go buy more disks when i feel like it[20:51:21] <geist> which is a good thing[20:51:22] <DaaT> bingo Thom_Holwerda ;)[20:51:22] <NeonLicht> mmmhhhh... I don't know the english word for the spanish "complejo", hahahaha[20:51:31] <geist> otherwise I'd have to buy 4 drives at the same time[20:51:48] <DaaT> NeonLicht: use it on a sentence[20:52:04] * umccullough needs 1TB NAS[20:52:13] <DaaT> no you don't umccullough :)[20:52:18] <Pulko__Mandy> NeonLicht: complex ?[20:52:29] *** GreyGhost has left #haiku[20:52:33] <umccullough> DaaT, you'd be surprised... i've got probably 100gb in 8MP photos already lying around[20:52:47] <DaaT> sheeesh[20:52:50] <geist> yeah that'll do it[20:52:53] <umccullough> my wife loves her camera ;)[20:52:57] <NeonLicht> complejo (sp) = cpmplex (en) yes[20:53:15] <umccullough> and ripping miniDV movies to my comp uses a lot of space too :P[20:53:18] <DaaT> and I thought my 3GB was a lot[20:53:31] <DaaT> thinking of getting a new cam actually[20:53:40] <NeonLicht> as in "superiority complex"[20:54:34] <NeonLicht> I was just joking asking umccullough if he had an urge to buy anything which has a label which says "massively huge" because of any complex XDD[20:54:47] <DaaT> ah ok :)[20:55:13] <umccullough> i got a minidv widescreen JVC cam for $149 on friday...[20:55:16] <umccullough> now i have two ;)[20:55:24] <NeonLicht> hahahahahahaha[20:55:27] <DaaT> pssttt, don't tell anyone, but I think umccullough is trying to compensate for something else... *whispers*[20:55:35] <umccullough> maybe ;)[20:55:45] <umccullough> maybe i'm compensating for my insanely small.... internet connection[20:55:52] <DaaT> :P[20:57:15] <mmadia> umccullough , bryanv detailed setting ubuntu up as a haiku dev environment: http://bryan.varnernet.com/2007/04/10/setting-up-a-haiku-environment-on-ubuntu-edgy-eft-610/[21:00:42] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[21:00:43] <Thom_Holwerda> im only attracted to 'massively huge' screens[21:00:54] <DaaT> sure you are[21:00:55] <DaaT> :)[21:00:58] <Thom_Holwerda> especially big LCD/plasma TVs attracht me like a fly to a dog poo[21:01:06] <surround1r> hehe[21:01:29] <DaaT> for now i'm happy with my... mmmmmmmmmmmmm.. 15y.o. sony tv :)[21:01:44] <Thom_Holwerda> i have a widescreen LCD tv here[21:01:45] <Thom_Holwerda> but[21:01:51] <Thom_Holwerda> it needs a new backliht inverter board[21:01:53] <Thom_Holwerda> 79E :([21:01:56] <Thom_Holwerda> euh[21:01:57] <geist> that's one of the downsides with working at apple, I had gotten pretty used to a 30" monitor[21:01:59] <Thom_Holwerda> 79USD[21:02:00] <geist> those things are insane[21:02:04] <DaaT> ouch Thom_Holwerda[21:02:13] <DaaT> like that dell you reviewed? or is it the same?[21:02:18] <Thom_Holwerda> the same[21:02:29] *** MikeW has quit IRC[21:02:33] <DaaT> bah, dell[21:02:43] <Thom_Holwerda> well[21:02:51] <Thom_Holwerda> its a philips Tv essentially[21:02:55] <Thom_Holwerda> just a dell casing[21:03:14] <DaaT> still[21:03:39] <DaaT> it's like saying a Minardi with a ferrari engine is as good as a Ferrari ;)[21:03:48] <Thom_Holwerda> well[21:03:51] <DaaT> actually... it's not.. nevermind[21:03:58] <DaaT> totally wrong analogy :P[21:04:07] <Thom_Holwerda> the difference is that the "casing" of an f1 car is as important as the engine :)[21:04:09] <Thom_Holwerda> indeed[21:04:18] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[21:04:20] * DaaT shuts up :)[21:04:23] <Thom_Holwerda> :P[21:04:24] *** [1]rgb has joined #haiku[21:04:40] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[21:04:59] <Thom_Holwerda> oh btw, are there any Dead Like Me fans in here?[21:05:48] <DaaT> what's that?[21:06:05] <Thom_Holwerda> its a certain TV show[21:06:10] <Thom_Holwerda> kind of cult-ish[21:06:26] <DaaT> ah, don't think I know it[21:06:29] <Thom_Holwerda> fans ave been trying to get it back on TV for a long time, sending mail and snail mail to MGM and all that[21:06:38] <Thom_Holwerda> and now, they are working on a direct-to-dvd movie on it[21:07:10] <DaaT> why does that make me think of another show...[21:07:15] <DaaT> (firefly)[21:07:19] <DaaT> now that show I love[21:07:28] *** [1]rgb has quit IRC[21:07:48] <umccullough> mmadia, yeah, ubuntu is what i'm considering, but i was thinking someone might have a better suggestion ;)[21:08:18] <umccullough> i have FC6 sitting here...[21:08:46] <meianoite> Thom_Holwerda here here, DLM fan[21:08:56] <Thom_Holwerda> meianoite: see this:[21:09:10] <Thom_Holwerda> http://cogscanthink.blogsome.com/2007/04/22/if-ellen-muth-will-reappear-as-georgia/[21:10:22] *** emitrax__ has joined #haiku[21:10:23] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[21:14:42] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[21:15:44] *** meianoite has quit IRC[21:16:03] *** meianoite has joined #haiku[21:16:08] <umccullough> hmm.. ingo rewriting bfs_shell :)[21:17:21] *** emitrax has quit IRC[21:17:30] <Pulko__Mandy> umccullough: i'm using Debian Sid... it is a little more dev-oriented than ubuntu... but that depends of what you like :)[21:18:18] *** rgb has quit IRC[21:18:42] <umccullough> Pulko__Mandy, mostly i need it for basic usability tasks (OO.o, FF, IRC), VMWare, and haiku build env.[21:19:05] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[21:19:10] *** M199 has joined #haiku[21:19:13] <umccullough> not sure what video editing solutions exist for linux...[21:19:31] <meianoite> jahshaka[21:19:34] <meianoite> avidemux[21:19:47] <meianoite> and there's another one I can't recall the name[21:19:57] <umccullough> I intend to basically make linux my primary OS instead of XP...so it'll be a little of this and that i suspect[21:19:59] <meianoite> simpler NLE package than jah[21:20:00] <Pulko__Mandy> cinelerra or something like that[21:20:13] <meianoite> Pulko__Mandy I guess that's the name indeed[21:20:53] *** emitrax has quit IRC[21:20:56] *** irielion has joined #haiku[21:21:09] <irielion> hey how can i install haiku natively from a linux pc[21:21:10] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[21:21:36] <umccullough> irielion, do you have the haiku source and build environment?[21:21:49] <irielion> no i have nuthing[21:21:54] *** wildur has quit IRC[21:22:21] <irielion> i just wanne try it natively, so i can check up with hardware compatibility[21:22:32] <irielion> and if it pleases me, write some applications for it[21:22:35] <umccullough> a livecd would be easiest, but obtaining one is difficult ;)[21:22:38] <Pulko__Mandy> umccullough: well, ubuntu comes with everything preconfigured, so if you don't want to mess with it it will be simpler; Debian installs just the base system (bash shell) and you need to install everything else. but you can configure everything without problems[21:23:11] <umccullough> Pulko__Mandy, i'll probably just start with ubuntu on this box then...[21:23:16] <irielion> huh[21:23:21] <umccullough> i think i have it d/led already anyhow[21:23:27] <irielion> i run ubuntu, but i want haiku on another partition[21:23:42] <umccullough> irielion, you came into the middle of a different discussion ;)[21:23:50] <umccullough> i was asking about various distros :D[21:23:51] <irielion> ow haha[21:24:11] <irielion> yea ubuntu is quite easy installable and put everything you need[21:24:27] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[21:24:27] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[21:24:29] <irielion> get ubuntu feisty 7.04 the lastest[21:24:37] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[21:24:50] <umccullough> my problem is small bandwidth, so i'd prefer to get most of what I need pre-installed[21:25:03] <irielion> hmm[21:25:06] <umccullough> i think i have an ubunto 6.10 disc around[21:25:13] <irielion> yea feisty is okay... i installed it yesterday[21:25:23] <irielion> and atm there are not so many updates yet[21:25:34] <irielion> or order feisty cd for free[21:25:35] *** Master199 has quit IRC[21:25:36] *** M199 is now known as Master199[21:25:49] *** jevin has joined #haiku[21:26:00] <irielion> 6.10 is also still okay, depends what you do[21:26:13] <irielion> for watching movies and stuff I prefer feisty[21:26:59] <umccullough> i can d/l isos at work[21:27:24] <umccullough> just sucks when i have to download tons of updates and packages from home after installing :([21:27:38] *** pikapika has joined #haiku[21:28:22] <pikapika> hello[21:28:26] <mmu_man> plop :)[21:28:36] <mmu_man> pikapika #haiku-fr aussi :)[21:29:02] <pikapika> ok :)[21:29:05] <pikapika> je join[21:30:34] <mmu_man> hmm is berlios still down ?[21:31:19] *** emitrax__ has quit IRC[21:31:30] <umccullough> hmm.. maybe more interesting would be putting 64bit linux on this box[21:31:41] <umccullough> but i think for now i'll stick with 32[21:32:02] <umccullough> mmu_man, i thought someone said it worked earlier... but maybe that was just svn up[21:33:24] <mmu_man> well it wasn't even getting ssh on, so I suppose i(d work[21:34:54] *** emitrax__ has joined #haiku[21:35:04] <Pulko__Mandy> i downloaded Code::Blocks from berlios svn and it worked ... :)[21:35:30] <umccullough> oh jeez, this "empty" 500gb disk already has > 100gb on it[21:35:35] <umccullough> guess i better back that up somewhere[21:36:05] <Jixt> hi[21:36:16] <NeonLicht> empty? XDDdddD[21:36:29] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[21:36:34] <umccullough> NeonLicht, i didn't think i had anything on it...but i guess i had to throw some stuff somewhere ;)[21:36:45] <Jixt> what program do I need to create a package file in BeOs/Haiku?[21:36:48] <NeonLicht> Ic XDDD[21:36:52] <umccullough> probably has crap on it that i recovered off my failing 120gb UDMA disk a couple months ago[21:37:09] <umccullough> Jixt, those are created by package builder that comes with R5[21:37:15] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[21:37:15] <umccullough> part of the build tools I think[21:37:42] <umccullough> but a warning: the .pkg format isn't compatible with Haiku yet - i think someone is working on that for GSoC[21:38:41] <Jixt> ok, good to know, thx[21:38:59] <umccullough> looks like Sil2100 in fact[21:39:29] <umccullough> he just posted to his blog even: http://haiku-os.org/blog/sil2100/[21:40:58] <magnetron> hi does haiku have SMP support?[21:41:04] <mmu_man> of course![21:41:19] *** dr_evil has joined #haiku[21:41:22] <mmu_man> just like BeOS had it a decade before Linux got it by default[21:41:22] <umccullough> the question could be: does it work properly yet ;)[21:41:22] <magnetron> mmu_man: great[21:41:37] <umccullough> i think geist ran into problems on his core 2 duo[21:41:38] <mmu_man> didn't try on my dual for some time but it should[21:41:47] <mmu_man> nyone tried running it in qemu with 8 cpus ? :)[21:41:57] *** irielion has quit IRC[21:42:35] <magnetron> =) umccullough: ok, "does it work properly yet"? do i have to enable it explicitly?[21:42:57] *** kr1stof_ has joined #haiku[21:43:00] <umccullough> magnetron, it should "just work"[21:43:06] <magnetron> great[21:43:19] <umccullough> run Pulse once you have it going and you'll see a separate cpu meter for each proc[21:43:49] <magnetron> does anyone here run it on physical hardware, or are you all using it in a VM?[21:43:56] * JonathanThompson wonders if anyone has tried it yet on a quad core system, or octo core[21:43:58] <umccullough> i run it on my PIII a lot[21:44:03] <mmu_man> using my AthlonXP[21:44:16] <magnetron> how did you install it?[21:44:25] <mmu_man> jam install-haiku :)[21:44:32] <JonathanThompson> I haven't run it in awhile, but all my systems are P3 (this one is dual p3-450) so emulation would be painful.[21:44:50] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dr_evil[21:44:51] * magnetron spits out noob-questions[21:45:11] * JonathanThompson may spit out noob answers (answers even a noob can understand)[21:45:22] <JonathanThompson> Then again, maybe noob...[21:46:00] <magnetron> mmu_man: i didn't really understand that about jam...[21:46:30] * dr_evil is back from extrem barbecueing. We had soooooooooooooooo much food[21:46:49] * JonathanThompson wonders if magnetron is really into microwaves[21:47:33] * magnetron is a non-existant particle[21:47:59] * JonathanThompson notes that magnetron is also the name of a key part of a microwave oven[21:48:01] *** emitrax has quit IRC[21:49:03] * magnetron is proud to make JonathanThompson think about microwaves[21:49:09] <mmu_man> magnetron I made a build :)[21:49:24] <magnetron> ok mmu_man[21:49:29] * JonathanThompson notes he has thought about them before, as he has formal education on the topic back in the early 90's[21:50:39] *** kr1stof has quit IRC[21:50:40] * meianoite notices JonathanThompson is spilling the beans on his age again[21:51:19] * JonathanThompson notes to meianoite that he could have studied such a topic back when he was still a minor[21:52:01] * magnetron is radiating beans[21:52:14] * meianoite REALLY, REALLY doubts so, JonathanThompson.[21:52:18] *** jevin has quit IRC[21:52:43] *** emitrax__ has quit IRC[21:52:44] *** [Beta] has joined #haiku[21:53:07] * meianoite calls JonathanThompson attention to the wording: "has formal education on the topic"[21:53:21] * JonathanThompson notes he was studying the 68000 technical documents by the age of 13, with intentions of building his own system[21:53:39] * JonathanThompson notes he had formal education in electronics before exiting high school[21:53:41] <umccullough> hi [Beta][21:53:55] <geist> deweeet![21:54:02] * JonathanThompson corrects: electronics and robotics as well as digital stuff[21:54:31] * meianoite slaps JonathanThompson with a ball grid array packaged chip[21:54:32] * JonathanThompson notes that also includes hydraulics and pneumatics under that hood[21:54:43] * JonathanThompson suddenly has a very textured face[21:55:07] * geist applies antiscopic filtering[21:55:09] <DaaT> textured=wrinkle-filled[21:55:17] <DaaT> re btw :P[21:55:24] <JonathanThompson> In this case, more pixellated :P[21:55:38] * meianoite notices how JonathanThompson's cumulative knowledge amounts to working at a car tuning shop[21:55:47] <JonathanThompson> HA HA HA HA[21:55:54] * JonathanThompson notes he's never worked at such a shop[21:56:14] *** tombhadAC has joined #haiku[21:56:22] <[Beta]> hey umccullough[21:56:23] <meianoite> that oily smell tells me otherwise...[21:56:26] * JonathanThompson also notes that he didn't state anything about learning about 3 phase power in same class and how that doesn't apply to a car tuning shop[21:56:49] * [Beta] steals JonathanThompson's /me[21:57:13] * JonathanThompson has NEVER seen a robot that someone could program at a car tuneup shop[21:57:20] *** Jixt has quit IRC[21:57:32] * JonathanThompson steels /me back from ./you (aka [Beta])[21:58:39] * meianoite wonders whether JonathanThompson looks like people from the OCC crew[21:58:51] <dr_evil> berlios still down, what a fuck![21:59:00] * JonathanThompson notes pictures of him are available online[21:59:09][21:59:30] <mmu_man> maybe it's just the dns for the server, the ip could work if we knew it[21:59:34] * meianoite avoids those like the plage[21:59:59] <geist> it's probably just down and everyone went home[22:00:15] <mmu_man> will have to wait some hours more then :)[22:00:22] <mmu_man> ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host[22:00:24] <geist> yeah should be morning in germany in a bit[22:00:35] <mmu_man> closed...[22:00:44] <dr_evil> geist berlios is run by Fraunhofer, and it's now 22:00 sunday evening here in germany[22:00:49] <mmu_man> maybe it's out of pids or something[22:00:57] <dr_evil> I guess it will be fixed tomorrow morning[22:01:02] <mmu_man> likely yes[22:01:18] <geist> the theory is it's the nfs server[22:01:32] *** jevin has joined #haiku[22:01:37] *** ekdahl has joined #haiku[22:02:50] *** mmadia has quit IRC[22:03:06] <mmu_man> anyway[22:15:28] <meianoite> this whole flash video concept is so broken[22:15:44] <mmu_man> it is[22:15:54] <mmu_man> even in windows it never works correctly[22:15:56] *** arikato has quit IRC[22:16:01] <mmu_man> either it works in FF[22:16:02] <mmu_man> or in IE[22:16:17] <mmu_man> or not at all as it says "get flash 8 or better"[22:16:33] <mmu_man> but no I won't upgrade anyway[22:17:16] <mmu_man> plus I already have 9 installed[22:17:23] <mmu_man> cause it got upgraded without asking me[22:17:25] <mmu_man> stupid[22:17:41] * [Beta] totally agrees[22:17:59] <mmu_man> putting a (standard!) <embed> tag was too simple[22:19:10] <[Beta]> Hell, they cant even make a new <video> tag without MS + Apple saying "not without using our codecs!". So we're kinda stumped.[22:20:09] *** Azret has joined #haiku[22:20:54] <mmu_man> there is *no* need for a video tag[22:20:58] <mmu_man> there are 2 already for this[22:21:23] <mmu_man> <embed> and <object> which are usually put one inside another to get old browsers working[22:21:26] <mmu_man> and it just wors[22:21:39] <mmu_man> even in BeOS with Opera and the mplay plugin[22:21:53] <mmu_man> (just the plugin didn't play the video usually cause it wasn't supporetd[22:22:04] <[Beta]> they need to remove the cruft at some point, we cant keep nesting tags for the next 10+ years.[22:22:24] <[Beta]> (this is for the HTML5 sepc anyhow, dated for 201? )[22:23:18] <DaaT> 201AC or BC?[22:23:52] <Pulko__Mandy> 201? with ? between 0 and 9 :)[22:24:01] <Pulko__Mandy> (or 0 and F ... :)[22:24:08] <[Beta]> whichever you believe to be forward in time, DaaT :P[22:24:17] <DaaT> :P[22:24:37] <joejaxx> Hello All :)[22:26:25] <Pulko__Mandy> +++[22:26:26] <[Beta]> hi[22:26:27] *** Pulko__Mandy has quit IRC[22:26:30] <mmu_man> well I think both tags weren't standard though[22:26:34] <mmu_man> but flash isn't either[22:26:41] <mmu_man> <embbed> was from netscape IIRC[22:26:46] <mmu_man> <object> from IE[22:27:04] <mmu_man> with it's clsid=(verylonghexregistrykey)[22:27:12] * [Beta] nods[22:29:12] <Thom_Holwerda> would be nice to have a <vid> tag[22:29:29] <mmu_man> both those tags were made for that purpose[22:29:33] <mmu_man> no need to add any other[22:29:43] <Thom_Holwerda> <vid>http://www.bla.com/video.[mov/wmv/whatever]</vid>[22:29:45] <[Beta]> neither work well mmu_man.[22:29:51] <Thom_Holwerda> mmu_man: remove the others[22:30:28] <mmu_man> worked fine whenever used correctly[22:30:47] <mmu_man> specifying the plugin to use to force one wasn't the correct use[22:30:54] <magnetron> Thom_Holwerda: that's the embed tag.[22:30:59] <mmu_man> anyway[22:31:03] <[Beta]> when used correctly, you waste a kilobyte just showing one video :)[22:31:14] <mmu_man> the simplest way will still be putting an <a href>[22:31:22] <[Beta]> The other importance of <video> is to standardise the format+codec used.[22:31:25] <mmu_man> there is *no* reason to not use it[22:31:34] <[Beta]> So everyone can view video, not just some.[22:31:35] <mmu_man> appart from forcing ppl to watch ads :)[22:31:56] <mmu_man> [Beta] the embed and object tags are totally format agnostic[22:32:07] <[Beta]> mmu_man, which is the bad thing.[22:32:10] <mmu_man> they just specify the url and eventually player plugin[22:32:16] * magnetron makes a not to use <embed>[22:32:23] <mmu_man> [Beta] no it's not bad, it's uncommercial :)[22:32:28] <[Beta]> heh[22:32:37] <Thom_Holwerda> i would die for a web-standard video format[22:32:50] <Thom_Holwerda> an open standard[22:33:04] <_hugo> if you died, then you wouldn't be able to enjoy it.[22:33:05] <magnetron> Thom_Holwerda: there already is one, check out democracy TV[22:33:08] <[Beta]> Thom: some of us use one already, we're just waiting for those other peeps to catch up.[22:33:13] <mmu_man> just make an RFC :)[22:33:25] <Thom_Holwerda> _hugo: thats technically correct.[22:34:01] <[Beta]> we'll make him a special coffin.[22:34:04] <Thom_Holwerda> its just that i get sick of having ten million proprietary codecs with half-ass support on alt. operating systems[22:34:15] <mmu_man> you tell me :)[22:34:32] <Thom_Holwerda> for instance, VLC is a mess on OSX[22:34:34] <mmu_man> bbl[22:34:37] <Thom_Holwerda> crashes all the time[22:34:41] <mmu_man> eh[22:34:51] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[22:35:32] <CHodapp_> Thom_Holwerda: what sorta mess? It's always worked well for me. Not that "always" in this context really means anything.[22:35:50] <Thom_Holwerda> CHodapp_: i dont know, it just crashes a lot[22:36:02] <CHodapp_> I've had more trouble with frontrow crashing[22:36:25] <CHodapp_> or taking 5 minutes to figure out "hey, I don't have a codec for this file"[22:36:30] <Thom_Holwerda> frontro is just a frontend[22:36:33] <Thom_Holwerda> nothing more[22:36:37] <Thom_Holwerda> it uses qt/itunes[22:37:48] <magnetron> i appreciate the better codec support in ubuntu feisty[22:39:15] *** Euver has joined #haiku[22:42:27] *** meianoite has quit IRC[22:42:42] *** guma has joined #haiku[22:45:37] *** flyinghippo has joined #haiku[22:47:57] *** flyinghippo has quit IRC[22:49:47] *** korli has quit IRC[22:52:49] *** MikeW has joined #haiku[22:54:12] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[22:54:31] *** soapdog has joined #haiku[22:54:42] <soapdog> Hello Friends![23:00:54] *** [1]umccullough has joined #haiku[23:01:13] *** Euver has quit IRC[23:02:49] *** umccullough has quit IRC[23:02:50] *** [1]umccullough is now known as umccullough[23:02:53] *** Sil2100 has quit IRC[23:03:12] <umccullough> hm ieee1394 keeps trashing my machine for some reason[23:03:22] <umccullough> probably crappy driver i guess[23:07:04] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[23:07:22] *** kad77 has quit IRC[23:07:35] <Azret> soapdog :D[23:08:16] <soapdog> azret :D[23:08:33] *** tgzuiop has joined #haiku[23:09:41] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[23:18:01] *** kokito has joined #haiku[23:18:08] *** noph has joined #haiku[23:18:09] <noph> ugha[23:21:33] *** siarzhuk has quit IRC[23:22:02] *** Mazon is now known as mazon[23:23:35] <DaaT> hey kokito[23:23:49] <stargater> hi kokito and DaaT[23:23:55] <kokito> hey DaaT & stargater[23:23:56] <DaaT> hi[23:24:12] <stargater> DaaT, have you see on haiku-os.org a blog ?[23:24:19] <DaaT> nope[23:24:21] <DaaT> let me check[23:24:44] <DaaT> usability?[23:24:49] <stargater> http://haiku-os.org/blog/sil2100/2007-04-22/usability_goodness[23:24:51] <stargater> yes[23:24:56] <DaaT> ah cool[23:25:15] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[23:26:22] <stargater> yes :-)[23:27:48] <stargater> DaaT, http://code.google.com/soc/haiku/appinfo.html?csaid=58C1745A4ED6AD91[23:28:28] *** tgzuiop has quit IRC[23:28:41] <DaaT> gotcha, thanks[23:36:58] *** soapdog has quit IRC[23:39:04] *** Yez has joined #Haiku[23:39:54] *** guma has quit IRC[23:44:50] <stargater> n8[23:45:52] *** SiCuTDeUx has joined #haiku[23:48:45] *** ekdahl has left #haiku[23:55:45] *** meianoite has joined #haiku[23:55:58] <meianoite> eh.[23:56:31] * _hugo licks the slab[23:56:32] <meianoite> how good is an UPS when the freakin' light pole gets blown and brings down both power and cable tv? =P[23:56:55] <Yez> so _hugo you are going wtih a slab after all?[23:57:02] * DaaT burns the slab since there's no disinfecting it now[23:57:11] <_hugo> Yez: i've finished it, doing tests right now[23:57:21] <Yez> wow[23:57:32] <_hugo> well, finished most of it. still dont have cache coloring or dynamic magazine capacities[23:57:42] <Thom_Holwerda> slab?[23:57:49] <_hugo> slab allocator[23:57:55] <Thom_Holwerda> first thing coming to my mind is SLED's slab menu for gnome :s[23:57:56] <Thom_Holwerda> ah ok[23:58:05] * meianoite hugs _hugo[23:58:15] <meianoite> I hope I can benefit from that slab allocator ;)[23:58:20] <meianoite> I've been craving for one, you know[23:58:39] <_hugo> well, its still experimental. i mostly followed bonwick's design[23:58:41] <DaaT> slab allocator? :P[23:58:53] <meianoite> that should do it...[23:59:24] <meianoite> it might be wise to compare the plain jane one to whatever tweaks the linux guys did later