April 18, 2007 
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April 18, 2007 [00:09:17] *** wildur has quit IRC[00:11:42] *** kr1stof_ has left #haiku[00:15:16] *** DaaT has quit IRC[00:15:26] *** DaaT has joined #haiku[00:15:37] *** TTRanger has joined #Haiku[00:15:44] *** DaaT has quit IRC[00:18:39] *** guma has joined #haiku[00:27:54] *** petterhj- has quit IRC[00:30:00] *** _guma_ has joined #haiku[00:30:29] *** _guma_ has quit IRC[00:36:30] <Thom_Holwerda> night all[00:36:35] *** Thom_Holwerda has quit IRC[00:37:19] *** SiCuTDeUx has quit IRC[00:37:43] *** SiCuTDeUx has joined #haiku[00:37:47] *** Jin__ has quit IRC[00:44:09] *** Grackle has quit IRC[00:45:01] *** pikapika has quit IRC[00:50:23] *** guma has quit IRC[00:59:03] *** Grackle has joined #haiku[01:01:24] *** guildencrantz has quit IRC[01:05:33] *** bobwhoops has joined #haiku[01:05:43] *** whoopsbob has quit IRC[01:09:34] *** [Beta] has quit IRC[01:12:02] *** [Beta] has joined #haiku[01:13:22] *** JamesB192 has joined #haiku[01:14:14] <CIA-17> korli * r20742 /haiku/trunk/src/servers/media_addon/ (Jamfile MediaFilePlayer.cpp):[01:14:15] <CIA-17> now plays the file found for the selected event[01:14:15] <CIA-17> reclaim and reuse of sounds ressources still to be implemented[01:26:17] *** oco has quit IRC[01:29:01] *** MikeW has quit IRC[01:32:16] *** tigerdog has quit IRC[01:38:51] *** weltschmerz has joined #haiku[01:41:52] *** Euver has quit IRC[01:49:15] *** Minbari has joined #haiku[02:04:53] *** Minbari has quit IRC[02:05:48] *** Minbari has joined #haiku[02:15:02] *** santagada has joined #haiku[02:19:08] *** MrWGW- has joined #haiku[02:19:17] *** MrWGW- has left #haiku[02:28:52] <TTRanger> Anybody home?[02:29:46] * [Katisu] turns off the light[02:30:43] *** ablyss has joined #haiku[02:38:01] * SiCuTDeUx falls to the ground[02:38:28] <SiCuTDeUx> OMG[02:38:44] * SiCuTDeUx turns the lights back on[02:55:56] <[Katisu]> now he can see us :P[02:58:12] *** Rodietze has joined #haiku[03:00:09] *** Rodietze has left #haiku[03:01:56] *** umccullough_work has joined #haiku[03:13:18] *** CHodapp_ has joined #haiku[03:17:22] <meianoite> umccullough_work were you the one who uploaded the shots of the new icons to imageshack?[03:17:34] <meianoite> the "appearances" one in particular[03:18:29] <umccullough_work> no[03:18:35] <umccullough_work> i think that was stargater[03:19:09] <meianoite> oh[03:19:10] <meianoite> thanks[03:19:19] <meianoite> that helped pinpointing the logs ;)[03:22:41] *** ddew|bofh has quit IRC[03:23:51] *** CHodapp has quit IRC[03:25:29] *** Sloar has joined #haiku[03:26:04] *** Yez has joined #Haiku[03:27:54] *** TheDave has joined #haiku[03:27:56] <TheDave> o/[03:30:34] *** santagada has quit IRC[03:37:42] <meianoite> \o[03:38:52] * SiCuTDeUx slaps meianoite with the bebook[03:39:08] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite, go to work :P[03:39:11] <SiCuTDeUx> xD[03:39:14] <TheDave> hehe[03:39:20] * meianoite invokes the power of The One and avoids the BeBook[03:39:38] * meianoite almost breaks his back in the process[03:39:42] <TheDave> anyone had any success installing beos in qemu?[03:39:49] <meianoite> that Keanu guy is really flexible =P[03:39:59] <TheDave> or is dd-ing an installed partition the only way?[03:40:08] <JamesB192> installing no, just running yes.[03:40:16] <meianoite> TheDave avoid KQEMU[03:40:27] <meianoite> and the issue is trying to install from CD[03:40:36] <meianoite> QEMU doesn't support multitrack data CDs.[03:40:41] <Yez> _hugo are you around?[03:40:58] <TheDave> how about using the second track as a cdrom and booting from floppy?[03:41:11] <meianoite> dunno. might work.[03:41:15] <_hugo> Yez: yep[03:42:20] <Yez> ok, Haiku sees my Intel Ipro 1000 nic but I can not get out... no DNS. I built a reslov.conf file and put "nameserver IP" When networking detected that file, it KDL'd on me[03:42:44] <Yez> suggestions?[03:42:46] <_hugo> Yez: do you have the output of the KDL?[03:42:56] <_hugo> Yez: did it obtain a valid ip address?[03:43:00] <Yez> not at the moment, turned off the machine[03:43:25] <Yez> yes, it had a valid IP before I did the resolv.conf file and I could ping my router[03:43:31] <_hugo> Yez: well, the best way you can help is to provide the output of the command "sc" when you get to KDL[03:43:41] <Yez> rgr rgr[03:43:57] <Yez> uh, can I cat that to a file from KDL ?[03:44:03] <_hugo> no[03:44:08] <Yez> crap[03:44:12] <Yez> take a picture?[03:44:14] <_hugo> cant you take a picture of it?[03:44:28] <Yez> with an actual digital camera, sure[03:44:36] <_hugo> that should be enough to get me an idea[03:44:54] <Yez> gimme a could of minutes.[03:45:02] <_hugo> sure[03:45:13] * JonathanThompson dips a ladle into the Bit Soup[03:45:42] <meianoite> I must confess... I'm *really* bored ATM. and *really* pissed at gpp. stupid, idiotic gpp can't parse a simple (albeit long) macro. no, it just outputs the first 1000 or so characters and stops.[03:46:09] <meianoite> now I must resort to either braindead code duplication, or using templates.[03:47:18] <_hugo> meianoite: what is your particular problem? gpp?[03:47:19] * JonathanThompson suggests using templates[03:48:17] <meianoite> _hugo it's actually a problem better solved by templates, indeed. and it also happens to be kernel code. so, 3 options there: manual duplication, macros taking types as parameters, or hand-crafted templates[03:48:36] <meianoite> and I find all the 3 options completely disgusting[03:49:21] <meianoite> oh, there's always the possibility of using void* and wrapping stuff around in a way that casts the right stuff to the right types[03:49:36] <_hugo> well, cant really help without knowing what you are trying to do.[03:49:39] <meianoite> which has "overhead" painted all over[03:49:57] <_hugo> templates are very powerful[03:50:22] <meianoite> they are. be thankful you're in C++ world[03:50:39] <meianoite> using actual C++ at the scheduler level is really something I'd rather not do[03:52:23] *** umccullough_work has quit IRC[03:52:25] *** _Lucretia_ has quit IRC[03:52:26] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[03:52:26] *** tombhadAC has quit IRC[03:52:26] *** procton has quit IRC[03:52:28] *** MrSunshine has quit IRC[03:52:29] *** silverpower has quit IRC[03:54:18] *** umccullough_ has joined #haiku[03:55:08] <meianoite> perhaps I should just take a shower and write pseudocode on the glass enclosure using a piece of soap. it usually helps me.[03:55:36] * SiCuTDeUx is working like an work reminder[03:55:45] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite, GET TO WORK[03:55:57] <SiCuTDeUx> _hugo, YOU TOO...[03:55:59] <SiCuTDeUx> xD[03:56:06] <SiCuTDeUx> so bored...[03:56:16] <meianoite> ever heard of writer's block?[03:56:23] <meianoite> happens to every good artist =P[03:56:37] <meianoite> conners just copy stuff[03:56:37] <SiCuTDeUx> writer's block?[03:56:42] <meianoite> we *create* stuff =P[03:57:06] <_hugo> im working right now[03:57:12] <_hugo> adding RTT estimation to TCP[03:57:13] *** umccullough_ is now known as umccullough_work[03:57:22] *** procton has joined #haiku[03:57:25] <SiCuTDeUx> _hugo, just kidding[03:57:51] <_hugo> :-)[03:57:57] <SiCuTDeUx> _hugo, i know you are... at least... meianoite just wright ramdom stuff at irc[03:58:07] <SiCuTDeUx> *write[03:58:18] <SiCuTDeUx> *random[03:58:31] <SiCuTDeUx> i think meianoite is a bot...[03:58:45] <SiCuTDeUx> a scam... just to collect the money from google...[03:58:55] <SiCuTDeUx> may be....[03:59:08] <SiCuTDeUx> i think umccullough_work has something to do with it...[03:59:11] <meianoite> you'll KNOW when I decide to resort to that. for the time being I'm just putting out some stuff.[03:59:14] <umccullough_work> huh?[03:59:32] <_hugo> SiCuTDeUx: SoC hasn't quite started yet, meianoite is still gathering ideas. give him time[03:59:34] <meianoite> SiCuTDeUx, just [expletive] yourself.[03:59:35] * umccullough_work thinks SiCuTDeUx is a bot[04:00:01] <SiCuTDeUx> jajajaja[04:00:06] * JamesB192 think droids can't code.[04:00:07] <SiCuTDeUx> oh... spanish laughter...[04:00:15] <umccullough_work> lol[04:00:26] <SiCuTDeUx> *hahahaha is better[04:00:31] <[Katisu]> yeah, technically SoC hasn't started yet[04:00:35] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite, just joking to... dont be mad[04:00:42] <SiCuTDeUx> *too[04:00:48] <meianoite> I can swear in spanish as well, in case it helps =P[04:00:57] <[Katisu]> students are supposed to be getting familiar with our nice friendly community[04:01:05] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite, try it... i can give you pointers... hahaha[04:01:25] <meianoite> [Katisu] emphasis to "nice friendly"[04:01:26] *** _Lucretia_ has joined #haiku[04:01:26] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[04:01:26] *** tombhadAC has joined #haiku[04:01:26] *** MrSunshine has joined #haiku[04:01:26] *** silverpower has joined #haiku[04:01:46] <[Katisu]> SiCuTDeUx was just joking btw.[04:01:46] <SiCuTDeUx> lol[04:01:47] <meianoite> I'm part of this community for just as long as most of you[04:02:01] <meianoite> it's just that I didn't use to hang around IRC much[04:02:14] <SiCuTDeUx> so hungry...[04:02:19] <SiCuTDeUx> so cold...[04:02:28] <SiCuTDeUx> OMG... this office just looks deserted...[04:02:49] <SiCuTDeUx> lol![04:02:51] <SiCuTDeUx> OMG....[04:03:03] <SiCuTDeUx> 10:03 pm...[04:03:14] <SiCuTDeUx> 22:03[04:03:24] * JamesB192 throws a tin of beans and a camp stove to SiCuTDeUx.[04:03:43] <[Katisu]> probably better than Chavez does[04:03:43] <SiCuTDeUx> times flys when you actually do nothing at all[04:03:46] <SiCuTDeUx> xD[04:04:11] <SiCuTDeUx> DONT MAKE ME START ABOUT CHAVEZ[04:04:12] * meianoite boots Haiku on QEMU.[04:04:31] <[Katisu]> or as I like to call him, "SiCuTDeUx's buddy"[04:04:31] <SiCuTDeUx> meianoite, to slow[04:04:45] * SiCuTDeUx has a gun...[04:05:04] * SiCuTDeUx is thinking to trying it on [Katisu][04:05:08] *** meianoite has left #haiku[04:08:42] <umccullough_work> time to go, bye[04:09:30] <umccullough_work> gotta go home and resuscitate my web server[04:09:39] *** umccullough_work has left #haiku[04:11:15] <SiCuTDeUx> i think i owe a meianoite an apologie[04:11:28] <SiCuTDeUx> i was a little harsh with my joke...[04:12:09] <Yez> it looks like he is a big boy, and appears that he can take it just as much as he can dish it out[04:12:25] <Yez> I think he is just offline at the moment cause he is actually working[04:12:48] <SiCuTDeUx> ok.[04:12:50] <Yez> _hugo did you get my msgs?[04:15:03] *** silverpower_ has joined #haiku[04:15:20] <_hugo> Yez: where? here?[04:15:25] <CIA-17> bonefish * r20743 /haiku/trunk/src/kits/app/Roster.cpp:[04:15:25] <CIA-17> BRoster::Launch() didn't send a B_SILENT_RELAUNCH message to an already[04:15:25] <CIA-17> running app. Fixes bug #1162.[04:15:45] <Yez> heh, private msgs ... not sure if I can even send them to folks[04:15:49] <_hugo> i did not[04:15:54] <_hugo> you need to be registered to do so[04:16:00] <Yez> ah[04:16:24] <Yez> I take it, that is not an easy thing to do[04:16:27] <SiCuTDeUx> Yez, registed and identified[04:16:38] <SiCuTDeUx> talking about IRC on freenode[04:16:49] <SiCuTDeUx> /msg nickserv help register[04:17:14] *** JonathanThompson has quit IRC[04:18:59] <Yez> uh, that talks about registering a channel... that has already been done[04:19:23] <SiCuTDeUx> /msg nickserv help register[04:19:49] <SiCuTDeUx> /msg nickserv register password[04:20:00] <SiCuTDeUx> this way you register your nick[04:20:11] <SiCuTDeUx> /msg nickserv identify password[04:20:21] <SiCuTDeUx> identify yourself to your nickname[04:20:27] <SiCuTDeUx> thats all[04:21:33] *** judgesuds has joined #haiku[04:22:05] *** silverpower has quit IRC[04:22:15] <Yez> it just tells me my nick is not registered[04:23:19] <judgesuds> hi haiku people[04:23:30] <Yez> REGISTER abc123[04:23:31] <judgesuds> anyone want to talk to[04:23:35] <judgesuds> me im from england[04:23:39] <Yez> stupid IRC[04:23:42] *** SiCuTDeUx has quit IRC[04:24:17] <TheDave> YES!!!!![04:24:20] <TheDave> success :D[04:24:24] <judgesuds> what is this room for? i thought i would just come in, what you all up to?[04:24:33] <TheDave> dano installed in qemu[04:24:38] <TheDave> complete with working network[04:24:50] <Yez> judgesuds talking about Haiku OS development[04:24:54] * TheDave pats himself fiercly on his back[04:25:41] <judgesuds> ahh ok then Yez, guess no one appreciates, talking in haikus :p[04:25:55] <Yez> not exactly, heh[04:26:19] <Yez> though I am sure there are quite a few in here that enjoy a good Haiku poem as well[04:27:12] <Yez> so, how do I get to the "nickserver" so I can register and identify and all that?[04:27:24] <TheDave> /msg nickserv help :)[04:27:35] <judgesuds> anywhere you know, where japanese poetry, is more than welcome?[04:28:07] *** TheDave is now known as ddew|bofh[04:28:54] <judgesuds> whats haiku 05, would it be over my head? im not too techy[04:29:35] <Yez> very nice judgesuds, unfortunately help you, I can not right now[04:29:59] <Yez> judgesuds Haiku Operating System[04:30:12] *** Minbari has quit IRC[04:30:12] <Yez> http://www.haiku-os.org[04:30:42] <[Katisu]> Yez, "/msg nickserv register abc123" doesn't work?[04:31:02] <Yez> no, it said I wasn't registered[04:31:54] <Yez> whoa, it worked that time![04:32:20] <[Katisu]> must of typed "identify" and not "register" before :P[04:32:30] <judgesuds> Is haiku OS, better to use than linnux? microsoft sucks rocks[04:32:41] <Yez> I did register first and then identify[04:32:56] <Yez> judgesuds we are certainly hoping it will be[04:33:16] <[Katisu]> still needs work though[04:33:35] <Yez> judgesuds if you have an older machine laying around and want to know what we are shooting for with Haiku, you can go to http://www.bebits.com and search for BeOS[04:33:55] <Yez> ooh, not BeOS, more like Personal Edition[04:34:23] <Yez> BeOS PE is a "try before you buy" kinda OS thingy.[04:35:13] <Yez> [Katisu] ok, so now that I am registered. How do I identify myself every once in a while or each time I log in to IRC so that my register stuff stays?[04:35:17] <[Katisu]> http://www.bebits.com/app/2680[04:35:19] <judgesuds> unforunately, i dont have an old machine, apart from this one! :p[04:35:26] <Yez> Thank you [Katisu][04:35:57] <[Katisu]> Yez, usually you configure it in your irc client[04:36:12] <Yez> looking at my Trillian settings now[04:36:26] * [Katisu] not familiar with Trillian[04:37:36] <Yez> hmm, this seems interesting "after connection to this IRC server, perform the following commands:"[04:37:37] <judgesuds> will the future be, all code being open source, for every program?[04:38:02] <Yez> probably not judgesuds but it will be a big part of the future[04:38:18] <Yez> it is very much a win-win situation with open source[04:38:42] <Yez> [Katisu] can I put the identify command in that box?[04:39:49] <judgesuds> programers who like, to program in open source, are cyber hippies ^^[04:40:11] <Yez> hehe[04:42:36] <ddew|bofh> atleast the gnu fanatics[04:43:07] <ddew|bofh> bunch of treehugging hippies with bad teeth and beards[04:43:44] <_hugo> ddew|bofh: what's wrong with beards? :-)[04:44:08] <ddew|bofh> i can't grow a proper one, therefor it's evil :P[04:44:15] <_hugo> ah, makes sense :-)[04:44:55] <ddew|bofh> and there's a difference between a gnu-beard and a real beard[04:45:10] <ddew|bofh> gnu-beards are unkept with pieces of food in them[04:45:17] <judgesuds> there is nothig wrong, with hippies with beards per se, but bad teeth are...ewwww[04:45:56] <ddew|bofh> hippies in general suck donkey-balls[04:46:29] <judgesuds> hippies are awesome, i want to be one some day, live in a commune[04:48:23] <ddew|bofh> to each his own I suppose, will never agree to their philosophy though :)[04:49:37] <judgesuds> what philosophy, do they have which you dont like, i would like to know[04:50:04] <_hugo> guys, this seems a bit off topic[04:50:05] <ddew|bofh> the one about all humans having equal value[04:50:16] <ddew|bofh> _hugo: good point[04:50:58] <judgesuds> sorry i should go, i am only here to talk, in haiku like this[04:52:00] <judgesuds> i am pretty pleased, with every line that i wrote, they were all haikus[04:53:07] <judgesuds> bye bye haiku peeps, hope that my silly chatter, didnt piss you off[04:53:20] <ddew|bofh> tata[04:53:56] *** judgesuds has quit IRC[04:59:08] *** silverpower_ has quit IRC[05:02:03] *** cherrypie__ has quit IRC[05:02:41] *** Karina`` has joined #haiku[05:03:42] <kokito> http://www.myhaiku.org/haiku/2007-04-17_sum-it at haiku20742 dot jpg[05:03:43] *** stargater has quit IRC[05:03:52] *** stargater has joined #haiku[05:04:32] *** [1]umccullough has joined #haiku[05:04:56] <kokito> stargater, http://www.myhaiku.org/haiku/2007-04-17_sum-it at haiku20742 dot jpg[05:05:25] *** silverpower has joined #haiku[05:08:02] *** Beket has joined #haiku[05:09:12] <Beket> Hello everyone! I've been seeing lately a lot of news regarding Haiku OS. What are the advantages of Haiku in regard to other OS'es ? Thanx:)[05:13:03] *** umccullough has quit IRC[05:13:03] *** [1]umccullough is now known as umccullough[05:16:21] *** kb7sqi has quit IRC[05:22:34] *** silverpower_ has joined #haiku[05:26:34] *** silverpower_ has quit IRC[05:27:13] *** silverpower_ has joined #haiku[05:28:33] *** silverpower has quit IRC[05:28:41] *** silverpower_ is now known as silverpower[05:32:10] *** kb7sqi has joined #haiku[05:32:49] *** meianoite has joined #haiku[05:33:00] * DeadYak pets meianoite[05:33:11] * meianoite purrs[05:33:14] <meianoite> geist[05:33:36] <geist> yes?[05:33:41] <meianoite> picture this[05:33:51] <meianoite> array of priorities[05:33:59] <meianoite> ok?[05:34:00] <meianoite> ok.[05:34:20] <meianoite> you use bitmaps to find the highest prio with an enqueued thread[05:34:33] <meianoite> (actually, one bitmap, but just follow me)[05:34:51] <meianoite> most threads in BeOS happen to lie in prios 20, 15 and 10[05:35:07] <meianoite> with the occasional scattered thread[05:35:28] <meianoite> I'm thinking of keeping 2 arrays of priorities[05:35:33] <meianoite> 0-99, and 100-120[05:35:59] <geist> thus far I have just seen sentence fragments[05:36:04] <geist> do you have something you're trying to say?[05:36:12] <meianoite> in a moment[05:36:13] <kokito> LOL[05:36:47] <meianoite> I'm really tired ATM, so PLEASE try and mentally stitch those fragments[05:37:00] <geist> okay, but what do you want me to do?[05:37:05] <meianoite> read[05:37:10] <meianoite> .[05:37:13] <meianoite> eh.[05:37:13] <geist> yeah, sure. what about what you wrote?[05:37:42] <geist> nothing in there particularly offends me, though I dont know why you want to keep two arrays[05:38:33] <geist> but again, what do you want me to do? tell you if that's a good idea or not?[05:38:53] <meianoite> I guess I should get over it right NOW so we can keep civil about this: I will *not* produce actual code until May 28th. from that date on, prototypes, tests and blabbering will cease to happen, but until now *accept* that I'm poking, prodding, experimenting, breaking, rebuilding, TESTING stuff[05:39:12] <meianoite> *deal* *with* *it*[05:39:21] <DeadYak> why oh why can I not stop playing this stupid Ninja Golf game[05:39:52] <meianoite> now, back to algo ideas I had[05:40:18] <geist> ???[05:40:28] <meianoite> the reason I want to keep 2 arrays is to avoid verifying several bitmaps before eventually finding a thread of interest[05:40:29] <geist> what the hell man[05:40:50] <meianoite> dude, I'm tired. please, just be condescending for the time being[05:41:18] <geist> what the hell[05:41:29] <geist> you came in with a bunch of sentence fragments, sort of descriptions of your idea[05:41:43] <meianoite> no, I still haven't said a WORD about my idea[05:42:04] <geist> I completely do not understand this exchange[05:42:05] <meianoite> I just stated how things will play out shall I just readapt the old NewOS code[05:42:19] <meianoite> i.e., having an array of priorities, 120 elements big[05:42:35] <geist> okay, this is meaningful information[05:42:47] <geist> so from what I can piece together from this[05:42:57] <meianoite> no, no, just be quiet for a moment[05:43:05] <meianoite> I have a few alternatives here[05:43:13] <geist> the *real* point of your description was to point out that searching through 4 words is non optimal since most of the bits are set in the last word[05:43:20] <geist> which is probably true[05:43:20] *** JonathanThompson has joined #Haiku[05:43:23] <meianoite> save the highest occupied prio in a variable[05:43:36] <meianoite> use 4 bitmaps[05:43:53] <meianoite> have a separate linked list of occupied priorities[05:43:55] <geist> bitmaps absolutely[05:44:16] <geist> highest occupied words until you exhaust that prio, then you have to linearly search until you find the next one[05:44:27] <umccullough> is_web_server_alive() :)[05:44:30] <geist> which would happen whenever you remove an item from the list, say when something is scheduled[05:44:40] <meianoite> cache the n highest occupied words in another array, and I'm considering 4 is a good size for it[05:45:10] <geist> no, if all of this is to avoid searching 4 words worth of bitmap, you've just invented something more complicated[05:45:29] *** ablyss has quit IRC[05:45:30] <meianoite> one is not supposed to preclude the other[05:45:36] <geist> having both is dumb[05:45:43] <meianoite> well, if you say so[05:45:59] <geist> two microoptimizations does not make for better[05:46:08] * JonathanThompson has been accused of being the master of complexification, but is willing to hand that title over to someone else :)[05:46:23] * meianoite bazookas JonathanThompson[05:46:26] <geist> anyway, I see there being two solutions:[05:46:29] * JonathanThompson lets out a pun[05:46:34] <geist> 1) 128 priorities, 4 words of bitmap[05:46:46] <geist> 2) single linked list with 128 pointers off into the middle of it[05:46:47] * meianoite nods at JonathanThompson [good one][05:46:54] <JonathanThompson> Wouldn't that more accurately be 4 DWORDS of bitmaps?[05:46:59] <geist> #2 is more complex but totally superior[05:47:06] <geist> JonathanThompson: I do not use x86 naming for that.[05:47:11] <JonathanThompson> Ah.[05:47:22] <geist> JonathanThompson: for all practical purposes, everyone else calls 'words' the 'native register size'[05:47:25] <geist> which makes far more sense to me[05:47:27] <JonathanThompson> Well, 68K is labeled the same way :)[05:47:41] <geist> for the same reason x86 did[05:47:44] <geist> 16 -> 32[05:47:48] * JonathanThompson notes he has dated himself time-wise[05:47:53] <meianoite> geist forgive my mental state, but I didn't get #2, as trivial as you made it sound[05:48:08] <geist> it's not trivial, but absolutely superior in every way[05:48:25] <JonathanThompson> meianoite, that's why Google will be paying you the big bucks :)[05:48:31] <geist> optimized for insertion, removal, optimized for searching highest prio[05:49:19] <meianoite> I didn't get the whole mechanism to be honest[05:49:38] <geist> pretend there are 128 seperate queues[05:49:45] <meianoite> ok.[05:49:48] <geist> glue them together so that the tail of one points to the head of the next[05:49:55] <meianoite> ok.[05:49:56] <geist> now you have one queue, sorted by priority[05:50:08] <meianoite> ok. how's that better than an array?[05:50:24] <geist> to find the next thread you just pop the head[05:50:52] <geist> and it probably has better cache locality, but that's probably not that big of a deal[05:50:55] <meianoite> if you maintain a separate list you have the same effect, minus the memory overhead[05:51:04] <geist> separate list of what?[05:51:38] <meianoite> if you add an extra field to the arrays telling next_occupied_prio, you achieve the same effect, and I even considered it, and discarded it.[05:51:46] <meianoite> a separate list pointing to that particular prio level[05:52:01] <geist> eh, that sounds like overkill for a simple problem[05:52:04] <meianoite> or maybe not even pointing, but storing which level it is[05:52:28] <geist> actually, that'd be pretty slow s well[05:52:40] <geist> when you added a new thread it'd have to update a whole bunch of items in the array[05:53:19] <meianoite> actually, no. only 2 items.[05:53:22] <geist> but anyway, the array of queues + bitmap is so dirt simple, and almost as fast as ideal that it's pretty silly to chose anything else[05:53:23] <meianoite> one is immediate to find[05:53:29] <meianoite> the other one is up to linear[05:53:42] <geist> I guess I dont understand what you're trying to say them[05:53:43] <geist> then[05:54:16] <meianoite> you have to update only the pointer of the previous level[05:54:25] <meianoite> going from bottom to top[05:54:32] <meianoite> the trick is finding it[05:54:50] <geist> i dont understand the design. every queue head has a pointer to the next available priority?[05:55:42] <meianoite> there's no design so far, only design ideas, and more than a handful of them, and I'm trying to weed out the less clever ones (not to mention the outright stupid)[05:56:06] <meianoite> that's the feedback I'm interested in so far[05:56:24] <geist> well, if I could follow what you're trying to say it'd be more helpful[05:56:41] <meianoite> we're actually at the same page here[05:56:47] <geist> just tossing out a bunch of random stuff and then when I try to probe falling back to 'they're just ideas' is kind of frusterating actually[05:58:00] <meianoite> well, sorry, to be honest they're just that. I'll eventually implement most of them to actually select one based on their performances, rather than personal opinions we might have about them[05:58:38] <meianoite> so even though you're ditching some of them quite quickly, I'm not, and I will not, not until I hard-test them on at last 5 different machines with different hardware[05:58:47] <meianoite> that's the scientist in me[05:58:53] <geist> umm, you know you're seriously microoptimizing up front?[05:59:09] <meianoite> you know the code is mostly ready in a way or the other?[05:59:14] <geist> i can tell you for an absolute fact that a few cycles here or there in the core selection process will matter absolutely none[05:59:26] <geist> no, I seriously doubt it is[05:59:32] <meianoite> it's either your code, or something that will resemble it very much[05:59:35] <meianoite> except for the SMP part[05:59:44] <geist> but the SMP part is 90% of it![06:00:06] <Anxiety> first rule of optimization, don't do it :)[06:00:07] <meianoite> damn it travis, I'm just trying to get over the uniprocessor scheduling part, and I've trying to for the whole week[06:00:21] <meianoite> so I can fsckin focus on the smp part next[06:00:22] <Anxiety> get a very fast implimentation, then squeeze the blood out of it[06:00:35] <geist> fine.[06:00:41] <meianoite> Anxiety that's precisely what I'm trying to do =P[06:00:48] * geist gives up[06:00:56] <meianoite> and people keep telling me I'm optimizing prematurely[06:01:05] <geist> it's because you are[06:01:08] <Anxiety> you are[06:01:10] *** knoedel has joined #haiku[06:01:24] *** knoedel has quit IRC[06:01:32] <geist> in os design one of the biggest tricks is deciding where to bother spending your time[06:01:33] <meianoite> I'm not! the whole point is that the scheduler code per se code IS DONE[06:01:48] <meianoite> and there's only so many ways to find the highest priority thread, or to skip the first few ones[06:01:54] <geist> making stuff more complicated than it needs to be will absolutely bit you in the ass later[06:02:12] <geist> doubly so for the first implementation of a new design[06:02:23] <geist> by the time you get to the end of it, you're likely to have to rewrite it a few times[06:02:41] <geist> and then you'll be glad you didn't spend too much time optimizing the first pass, because you had t othrow it away[06:03:09] <geist> now, if you're having fun thinking about it, that's a completely different story[06:03:29] <geist> but before you involve too many other folks, at least make it known that you're just thinking out loud[06:03:34] <geist> which it hink is what you're trying to do[06:03:53] <meianoite> that's all I did so far, except for the eventual prototype test[06:04:11] <geist> right, in that case i dont mind brainstorming with you[06:04:13] <meianoite> and that's what I tried to say previously when I stated I won't code *anything* real before 28/5[06:04:22] <geist> eh?[06:04:43] <meianoite> [00:37] <meianoite> I guess I should get over it right NOW so we can keep civil about this: I will *not* produce actual code until May 28th. from that date on, prototypes, tests and blabbering will cease to happen, but until now *accept* that I'm poking, prodding, experimenting, breaking, rebuilding, TESTING stuff[06:04:50] <meianoite> current time: [01:03][06:04:58] <geist> yes, I understand that you stated it before[06:05:02] <geist> but why may 28th?[06:05:27] *** JamesB192 has quit IRC[06:05:28] * Anxiety goes off to watch a movie[06:05:31] <meianoite> check the schedule for GSoC[06:05:44] <geist> i dont know anything about gsoc[06:05:58] <meianoite> we, students, are only supposed to get to know the community and MO of the development process in general until that date[06:06:00] <geist> google pays you to do work for open source?[06:06:06] <geist> ah, i see[06:06:20] <geist> fair enough. trouble is there is no dev process here :)[06:06:34] <geist> folks just hack shit and hopefully more forward progress is made than backwards[06:06:35] <DeadYak> which doesn't stop hugo :P[06:06:52] <meianoite> hugo is not just a student who enrolled for the GSoC[06:07:07] <_hugo> im a circus chicken[06:07:10] <meianoite> he's a developer who happens to also be a student, and he took advantage of the opportunity[06:07:14] * DeadYak pets _hugo[06:07:23] * _hugo does whatever noise a chicken does[06:07:29] <DeadYak> meianoite: what's the difference?[06:07:36] <geist> i do assume you've built the system, tested it, etc?[06:07:41] <meianoite> on the other hand, I happen to be the plain jane computer science student[06:07:53] <geist> up front a good thing to maybe do is hack some test apps so you can measure the progress of the scheduler[06:08:04] <geist> which I think is equally hard as doing it[06:08:30] <meianoite> not software engineer, but computer *scientist*. I do break, fix, prod, poke, make bleed, heal, enlarge, shrink, and measure the effects of stuff[06:08:41] <_hugo> oh my :-)[06:08:49] <meianoite> geist you'd be surprised I have this setup already[06:09:16] <meianoite> and I'm putting it to test every time I want to try something[06:09:22] <meianoite> and I indeed am counting cycles[06:09:35] <meianoite> running stuff 10000 times (not kidding) and averaging results[06:09:41] <geist> noi, I mean the performance of the systme[06:09:48] <geist> not the data structure[06:10:08] <meianoite> where did you get the idea I'm not testing the *performance* of the system?[06:10:10] <DeadYak> geist: as in responsiveness?[06:10:17] <meianoite> not only in absolute terms, but relative as well[06:10:22] <geist> oh for fucks sake[06:10:33] <geist> if you're going to be argumentative, I'm just gonna go do something else[06:10:38] <meianoite> I'm also testing the behaviour of the algorithms[06:10:41] <geist> gotta go home anyway[06:10:42] *** JollyRog has joined #haiku[06:10:43] <geist> still at work[06:11:16] <meianoite> so far the *best* one I have wrt to thread starvation is, suprise, my own.[06:11:29] <meianoite> however it's not as fast as the more naive ones[06:11:34] <meianoite> (which is not a big surprise)[06:12:03] <meianoite> want to know what it does? =P[06:12:54] * _hugo waves his arms to dead can dance[06:12:57] <meianoite> in a nutshell, it rolls an unbalanced dice[06:12:59] * _hugo is a circus chicken in the wilderness[06:13:04] <stargater> be ore not to be[06:13:25] <meianoite> it has greater probability to return a higher prio than a lower one[06:13:36] <meianoite> then it peeks at the returned prio level for an existing thread[06:13:46] <meianoite> if there's none, it peeks at the previous level[06:13:54] <meianoite> if there's still none, it peeks at the next[06:13:54] *** gotaku has joined #haiku[06:14:04] <gotaku> How's it going?[06:14:08] <meianoite> if it finds one, it's returned[06:14:15] <meianoite> if it doesn't, it rolls the dice again[06:14:18] <meianoite> and so on.[06:14:30] <meianoite> so there's a probabilistic distribution going on[06:14:49] <meianoite> and it works wonders for starvation avoidance[06:14:53] <meianoite> but it's not cheap to roll =P[06:16:18] <meianoite> the actual code for it is:[06:17:06] <meianoite> while( (U2= (rand() % (upperLimit-lowerLimit+1)) + lowerLimit) >[06:17:06] <meianoite> (U1= (rand() % (upperLimit-lowerLimit+1)) + lowerLimit) ); return U1;[06:17:26] <meianoite> brain-dead enough, but not cheap, especially not when you must repeat it until something interesting happens =/[06:17:39] <meianoite> but works *wonders* to avoid thread starvation.[06:17:54] <gotaku> The new icons look great.[06:18:24] <meianoite> am I just talking to myself and geist actually just went home? =P[06:19:02] <DeadYak> he did[06:19:14] <DeadYak> I would too if I was at work at 21:00 :P[06:20:28] <meianoite> well, I guess arguing is sometimes part of the process of building something better =/[06:20:57] <meianoite> but I feel sorry for pissing him off to that point[06:24:45] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[06:26:14] *** Teknomancer has joined #haiku[06:27:42] *** phrizek has joined #haiku[06:29:17] <umccullough> meianoite, don't sweat it ;)[06:29:39] <meianoite> hard to, umccullough... I so admire this guy.[06:30:02] <meianoite> here's one person I definitely *don't* want to be pissed at me[06:30:31] <umccullough> honestly, i don't think he's really "pissed at you"...[06:31:33] <umccullough> annoyed is different than pissed[06:32:07] <umccullough> ;)[06:32:16] <meianoite> *rimshot*[06:32:59] <umccullough> seriously though, respect doesn't come free - once you start working on stuff, and if your methods are good, it may work out really well[06:33:22] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[06:33:25] <meianoite> tell me a person you look up for. anyone. musician, parent, artist. you don't want to annoy these people.[06:34:08] <umccullough> meianoite, i annoy some of my peers at work all the time - we argue, we disagree, but in the end, we respect each other[06:34:38] <umccullough> because we know we're all capable of doing things well[06:34:43] <umccullough> (well, some of us anyway)[06:34:59] <meianoite> I completely understand that, and I've annoyed more than my share of peers. but to annoy someone you admire, well, it *always* sucks.[06:35:52] <umccullough> heh, get over the admiration part then ;)[06:36:05] <umccullough> geist is awesome... but i probably annoy him sometimes too ;)[06:36:21] <umccullough> and i'm not even a real coder :P[06:37:21] * meianoite goes off to extinguish the candles at his personal Haiku Devs Shrine[06:37:32] <gotaku> I'm going to try an make my own operating system... After I do that maybe then I would be able to help with the Haiku kernel ;)[06:37:49] * meianoite didn't have the guts to do it.[06:38:25] <meianoite> what can I do, these guys are all awesome :)[06:38:43] <umccullough> )[06:38:46] <umccullough> :) even[06:39:06] <meianoite> sometimes I question myself about the whole GSoC deal[06:39:13] <meianoite> whether I should just go back to cheerleading[06:39:24] <DeadYak> I hope you mean that figuratively[06:39:28] <meianoite> instead of putting my nose right into there[06:39:37] * meianoite hides his ponpons[06:40:32] <meianoite> aye, actual male cheerleaders are indeed so lame, eh.[06:40:46] <DeadYak> especially computer geek cheerleaders :P[06:41:01] <meianoite> but I meant cheerleading as in cheerful, excited, supportive user-base community member[06:41:17] *** emitrax has quit IRC[06:41:24] <DeadYak> I know, I was joking[06:41:47] <meianoite> then again, the GSoC was the perfect excuse for diving in, which I always wanted to[06:42:33] <umccullough> meianoite, leave the cheerleading to the experts ;)[06:42:34] <Beket> meianoite, are you participating in GSoC? If yes, what's your project about ?[06:42:43] <meianoite> but, and I believe that's crystal clear right now, I'm feeling a little dwarfed.[06:42:44] <umccullough> j/k[06:42:52] <meianoite> those are *the guys*, you now?[06:43:26] <umccullough> meianoite, it's a common problem, but you gotta understand it's a community. You're already an accepted member![06:43:37] *** FiddleStix has joined #haiku[06:43:48] *** JollyRog has quit IRC[06:44:08] <meianoite> yeah, but I cant avoid this feeling that there's a community, and that there's an inner circle I'm trying to break into[06:44:34] <meianoite> the community as a whole? ok, I'm part of that, I've been part of that from day 1[06:44:42] <meianoite> but the inner circle? oh boy.[06:45:12] <meianoite> the whole GSoC deal is both thrilling and *SCARY*[06:46:16] <DeadYak> I think you're taking things a little too seriously :)[06:46:18] <meianoite> (this is generally the part when people tell me to shut the fuck up, stick to my guns, stop being a sissy and show what I'm here for)[06:46:57] <umccullough> meianoite, there may ultimately be an inner circle, but it doesn't matter really :)[06:47:21] <umccullough> in the end, you're helping a great project![06:47:28] <meianoite> (and it takes some serious cluestick beating until I finally overcome the whole chickenness)[06:49:18] <meianoite> I've been through the whole thrill and scare business so many times I've come to learn how things usually play out[06:49:50] <FiddleStix> fantastic new icons[06:49:59] <meianoite> hopefully I'll snap out of it shortly[06:50:39] <meianoite> so, DeadYak, I understand you're already polishing your cluestick and training some batting movements[06:52:50] <meianoite> hmmm... the timer in About Haiku is completely broken[06:53:40] <DeadYak> actually I'm playing Super Paper Mario :P[06:53:46] <meianoite> when you cross midnight it adds a day there, even though 24h didn't actually pass by[06:57:29] <meianoite> if I ever get to buy myself a PS3, I hope the backup scene will have figured out the protection. Sony won't officially launch the PS3 in Brazil, there's going to be no warranty, and if the game disks eventually break, there's no way I'll manage to get a replacement for free[07:00:40] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[07:01:35] *** kr1stof has left #haiku[07:01:39] <geist> yawn, that was a cold and windy ride[07:01:53] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[07:01:57] <DeadYak> motorbike presumably?[07:02:31] * JonathanThompson lobs a tax form at DeadYak[07:02:52] *** Beket has quit IRC[07:03:12] <meianoite> geist how the...? how do you manage that? ok, there's an obvious explanation I'm too tired to figure out by myself, but how can you keep connected from both home and work? some screen(1) magic?[07:03:37] <DeadYak> meianoite: that's what I do[07:03:44] <DeadYak> irc running in screen on shell server[07:03:57] <geist> right[07:04:51] <meianoite> I guess you have a decent scrollback buffer then? if so, geist, I happen to have explained what my algorithm really did, but you were commuting I guess...[07:06:05] *** thewolf has joined #haiku[07:06:22] <geist> i dont think there is anything that keeps you from cloning a BD disc, I dont think[07:06:27] <thewolf> Just wondering if anyone has installed haiku on a usb stick[07:06:37] <geist> except the fact that they're really expensive[07:07:03] <meianoite> I'm thinking more of a backup-to-HD route[07:08:52] <meianoite> the thing is that I hoped to get a 1st gen PS3, because of the real PS2 parts, not emulated crap. and I only say "crap" because it currently IS crap, and sony seems unwilling to keep perfecting it[07:09:27] <silverpower> meianoite, the unified EE/GS is a piece of garbage.[07:09:27] <meianoite> so I hope the "scene" figures that out SOON...[07:09:34] <silverpower> Compatibility problems galore.[07:09:37] <DeadYak> have fun getting that[07:09:45] <DeadYak> unified how? it's software emulation[07:09:57] <meianoite> DeadYak actually, it's not[07:10:02] * silverpower actually *had* a V14c PS2, thankyouverymuch, and it sucked.[07:10:06] <meianoite> it's the PS2 slim hardware bolted into PS3[07:10:13] <DeadYak> meianoite: only in gen 1.[07:10:16] <DeadYak> good luck getting that.[07:10:24] <meianoite> hence what I just said :)[07:10:31] <meianoite> well, there's always ebay[07:10:52] <DeadYak> .br uses PAL, yes?[07:10:53] <meianoite> someone will eventually sell one for cheap[07:11:02] <meianoite> PAL-M[07:11:09] <geist> my ps3 plays all the ps2 games i've tried in it thus far[07:11:10] <meianoite> which is NTSC timing with PAL colour scheme[07:11:12] <DeadYak> there are no PAL PS3s that are gen 1.[07:11:21] <geist> but i guess i have a 1st gen, since i'm in the us[07:11:43] <Teknomancer> my ps2's broken, pffft probably due to overheating[07:11:46] <meianoite> geist PM me in case you're willing wo sell yours ;)[07:11:49] <meianoite> *to[07:11:53] <geist> nope[07:12:03] <geist> though i have 2 of them sitting on my desk at work :)[07:12:08] <meianoite> =P[07:12:28] <meianoite> well, if you EVENTUALLY decide to sell it, PM me.[07:12:56] <Teknomancer> #define CompareKeyBits(key1, key2, bit) ( (key1[bit >> 3] & (1 << (bit & 7))) == (key2[bit >> 3] & (1 << (bit & 7))) ) uggh :(((((([07:13:24] <Teknomancer> k dad wants pc for doc work, bye[07:13:35] *** Teknomancer has quit IRC[07:14:04] <geist> nothing reminds you that you're talking to a kid like when they say something like 'k gotta go mom wants me to take out the trash'[07:14:42] <umccullough> lol![07:15:21] <umccullough> geist, come on, you remember those days ;)[07:15:34] *** tic has quit IRC[07:15:36] *** chandler has quit IRC[07:15:37] <geist> nope. only thing going on back then was dialup BBSes[07:15:51] <geist> and you rarely logged into one with more than one node alive at a time[07:15:58] <geist> the best you got was a talk to a bored sysop[07:16:01] *** tic has joined #haiku[07:16:01] *** chandler has joined #haiku[07:16:54] <umccullough> geist, didn't you ever have to get off the phone cuz your parents wanted to use it?[07:16:58] <umccullough> i did :P[07:17:12] <geist> heh, yeah. doubly so because of dialing up to the bbses[07:17:19] <umccullough> "sorry man, i gotta go - my mom needs to make a phone call"[07:17:32] <geist> or better yet, when your buddy was gonna call you and you ran around telliung everyone not to pick it up[07:17:37] <geist> AT&S0=1[07:17:38] <umccullough> lol[07:17:47] <umccullough> "MOM! Don't answer that!"[07:17:59] <meianoite> oops[07:18:02] <meianoite> say hello to bugs.[07:18:10] <umccullough> i distinctly remember pulling the plug on the phone in the kitchen so it wouldn't ring ;)[07:18:17] <geist> yeah, I used to do that mostly[07:18:21] <geist> but then you'd forget, etc[07:18:27] <umccullough> true ;)[07:18:49] * DeadYak has flashbacks to BBSes on his C64 @ 300 baud[07:19:44] <meianoite> now THAT's more like it.[07:20:41] <meianoite> heh![07:20:50] <meianoite> cool.[07:21:30] * meianoite is slowly getting his confidence back[07:23:39] <thewolf> hmm, would it be possible to use dd to write the haiku.image file to a USB stick, and then be able to boot from it?[07:24:23] <umccullough> thewolf, i doubt Haiku will successfully boot from USB - because the USB stack isn't good enough yet[07:24:37] <thewolf> ok[07:24:39] <umccullough> once the bootloader hands off to the kernel, it would probably be toast[07:25:13] <thewolf> I'm just trying to find a way to try it on real hardware without repartitioning[07:25:44] <umccullough> livecd maybe[07:25:51] <meianoite> A W E S O M E[07:25:56] <umccullough> problem is...creating one generally requires R5[07:26:01] <thewolf> :X[07:26:19] <umccullough> thewolf, what hardware?[07:26:22] <meianoite> I'm officially faster and fairer than any other scheduler code I've implemented before[07:27:05] <meianoite> and there's ZERO braindead priority inversions for no good reason[07:27:06] <thewolf> umccullough, athlong 64 3200, two hard disks (one is SATA) and a shit radeon card[07:27:15] <thewolf> athlong :P[07:27:22] <umccullough> radeon would be fine, SATA would be bad[07:27:25] * meianoite is back to his cheerful self[07:27:27] <thewolf> yeah[07:27:34] <umccullough> i had to disconnect my SATA disks entirely to get haiku to boot[07:27:37] <thewolf> windows is on the non SATA part[07:27:57] <thewolf> hmm[07:28:00] <umccullough> i threw Haiku on a spare HD using my R5 box and hooked it to the PATA controller of my AMd box[07:28:11] <meianoite> geist, want to look at some numbers? :)[07:28:18] <geist> no, busy[07:28:23] <meianoite> bummer[07:28:32] <meianoite> great looking numbers, though[07:29:13] *** kr1stof has left #haiku[07:29:22] <meianoite> I should probably do some blogging about my experiments...[07:29:35] <meianoite> but, really, the numbers are *gorgeous* now[07:29:40] <umccullough> thewolf, what network card?[07:29:41] <umccullough> chip?[07:30:27] <thewolf> nforce4, I guess[07:30:36] <umccullough> ick[07:30:51] <umccullough> no driver for that yet[07:31:06] <meianoite> it might be marvell[07:31:14] <thewolf> I've got a realtek card here somewhere[07:32:09] <thewolf> doesn't look like I'm going to get anywhere with this :P[07:33:28] <stargater> re[07:35:00] <thewolf> alright, I'll try something more boring[07:35:13] *** gotaku has quit IRC[07:48:22] *** JonathanThompson has quit IRC[07:55:30] <thewolf> has anyone used haiku in QEMU with networking?[08:05:56] <umccullough> thewolf, some have, yes[08:06:05] <umccullough> it emulates ne2000 and uses the etherpci driver[08:06:21] <umccullough> _hugo recently tweaked the driver a bit to fix a problem[08:07:16] <thewolf> hmm, I can't seem to connect to anything, probably because I don't know what I'm doing ;P[08:10:46] <umccullough> configuration probably - but anyway i gotta go to bed :)[08:10:55] <umccullough> ifconfig, route, and resolv.conf are your friends ;)[08:12:11] *** umccullough has left #haiku[08:18:26] *** JonathanThompson has joined #Haiku[08:21:59] <kokito> good night folks[08:22:02] *** kokito has quit IRC[08:22:38] * JonathanThompson lobs another ladle of Bit Soup into the chatroom[08:26:04] <thewolf> hmmr, the mouse keeps freezing[08:26:28] * JonathanThompson hands a correctly-sized coat to thewolf for his freezing mouse[08:26:51] <thewolf> :P[08:27:27] <thewolf> and CLTR+I does something other than go into insert mode in VI...[08:27:46] <JonathanThompson> Which OS is that you're using atm?[08:27:54] <JonathanThompson> is it...[08:27:55] <thewolf> Linux[08:28:04] <JonathanThompson> There's your problem right there :P[08:28:09] <thewolf> shh[08:28:27] *** Mazon is now known as mazon[08:28:41] *** mazon is now known as Mazon[08:28:48] <meianoite> somehow methinks JonathanThompson would say that whatever the answer[08:28:55] <thewolf> Wish I could run BeOS, but I don't know what hardware is supported[08:29:05] * JonathanThompson hopes Haiku handles max windows/threads limits much better than BeOS.[08:29:18] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[08:29:29] * JonathanThompson lobs more Bit Soup at Begasus in welcome[08:30:04] <Begasus> howdy JonathanThompson ;)[08:30:07] <Begasus> thnx for the big welcome :D[08:30:20] <meianoite> JonathanThompson the limit still is 4096 threads[08:30:39] <meianoite> hence +/-2000 windows, I guess[08:30:54] <Begasus> g'morning peeps[08:31:11] <meianoite> I'll try to convince the guys to allow 8092 threads :)[08:31:27] <meianoite> but have you actually HIT that limit, JonathanThompson? during *normal* usage?[08:31:42] <JonathanThompson> That's a total system limit you're mentioning, meianoite, but in BeOS, the limit is per application that provides the problem with the AppServer.[08:32:02] <meianoite> hm, ok.[08:32:09] <meianoite> I'll mention that as well :)[08:32:13] <JonathanThompson> In which case, I too regularly hit that limit :([08:32:18] <meianoite> and the per app limit is...?[08:32:25] <JonathanThompson> I did less than an hour ago, in fact.[08:32:33] <meianoite> ever tried hacking the libbe? :)[08:32:43] <JonathanThompson> 193: 1 main thread with a 16 meg stack, and the rest with 256 K stacks.[08:32:46] <meianoite> or whatever enforces the limit[08:32:55] <thewolf> Say I did want to run BeOS, what would you guys suggest?[08:32:59] <JonathanThompson> It's a matter of the kernel.[08:33:08] <JonathanThompson> Get an old P3 system, dirt cheap :)[08:33:19] <JonathanThompson> Very likely to be compatible that way.[08:33:21] <meianoite> eh. hacking that is a wee bit harder :)[08:33:41] <JonathanThompson> In BeOS, the location of thread stacks is hard-coded.[08:33:55] <thewolf> I have no money :([08:34:00] <JonathanThompson> Though with a bit of hacking, you can adjust things a bit, outside of what the system normally expects.[08:34:16] <JonathanThompson> Ask for one from someone wanting to upgrade to a more modern system :)[08:34:32] <JonathanThompson> In the US at least, these days it costs money to dispose of such things.... at least in Washington state.[08:34:41] <JonathanThompson> (If you do it legally, anyway).[08:34:50] <thewolf> :P[08:34:55] <JonathanThompson> You could also try dumpster diving.[08:35:10] <thewolf> Is it possible to run it on an Athlon 64?[08:35:14] <JonathanThompson> You may very well end up with something that works quite well, if they're getting rid of it.[08:35:30] * JonathanThompson only owns P3 and PPC-based machines...[08:35:39] <meianoite> something is definitely not right here. I'm activelly running the idle thread when I'm not supposed to[08:35:58] <JonathanThompson> Perhaps your scheduler is running a wee bit off, meianoite :)[08:36:01] <thewolf> Ok, so I get a p3, what next?[08:36:05] <meianoite> totally[08:36:18] <meianoite> even though I've littered the code with printfs and asserts[08:36:21] <JonathanThompson> Get a PCI video card, or quite a few AGP cards for video.[08:36:22] <meianoite> something is still going awry[08:36:53] <thewolf> "quite a few"? O_o[08:36:58] <JonathanThompson> Matrox Millenium cards are supported by any OS you can find, and I still have a Matrox Millenium 1 with 2 megs RAM in perfect working order, bought new in 1995 :)[08:37:25] <thewolf> hah, I've got a few s3 trios here[08:37:45] <JonathanThompson> If you get a Matrox card, between what the system has for built-in drivers and what's on BeBits.com (I suggest you look at available drivers to configure a cheap old system) you're likely going to be fine.[08:37:54] <JonathanThompson> They might work, I'm not sure.[08:38:23] <JonathanThompson> This system I'm using right now is a weird setup by today's standards: I have as much RAM on my video card as I have main menory :P[08:38:32] <thewolf> are there "distros" with lots of drivers?[08:38:32] *** PulkoMandy has joined #haiku[08:38:37] <JonathanThompson> Oh, a GeForce 5500 works fine.[08:38:41] <meianoite> this can't be happening.[08:38:44] <stargater> ahhh c++ is sooo cool :-)[08:39:11] <JonathanThompson> (That's what I've currently got installed: PCI GeForce 5500, because it seems my AGP slot died)[08:39:52] <JonathanThompson> After all, if you're running a P3 system and BeOS, having the latest/greatest video hardware has no value.[08:40:03] <JonathanThompson> No P3 could saturate the card I've got now, even.[08:40:04] <thewolf> yeah[08:40:12] <JonathanThompson> Regardless of the OS.[08:40:42] <thewolf> Am I ever an idiot for buying a PCIe Radeon :/[08:40:45] <JonathanThompson> I'd suggest you'd have a bad chance of getting a BeOS-compatible system if you got most laptops.[08:41:02] * JonathanThompson doesn't have that option with current hardware...[08:41:21] <JonathanThompson> <--main system approaching 8 years old[08:41:51] <thewolf> Mine has been upgraded constantly since 2001.[08:41:52] <JonathanThompson> The 440 GX chipset (server version of the 440 BX) works perfectly fine.[08:42:09] <JonathanThompson> That's what this dual p3-450 has.[08:42:44] <JonathanThompson> 440 BX is likely easier to find in a used system, if you can find one.[08:42:47] <thewolf> hmm[08:43:03] <JonathanThompson> These days PC's are being sold for less than I paid for this motherboard when I bought it new.[08:43:12] <JonathanThompson> (It has a few other server hardware options on it as well)[08:44:13] <thewolf> Unfortunately the only other computers I have here are a celery 533 with inbuilt no-name graphics and a 386.[08:44:19] <JonathanThompson> With appropriate patches, you may get it running on the AMD Athlon 64.[08:44:31] <JonathanThompson> The celery may work great :P[08:44:34] <thewolf> hmm[08:44:48] <JonathanThompson> A lot of BeOS users got the cheapo celery's of the era.[08:44:49] <thewolf> the celery doesn't run anything great[08:45:05] <JonathanThompson> It'll do BeOS decently enough, as long as you don't do certain types of things.[08:45:21] <thewolf> the graphics card has trouble drawing anything faster than hair growing[08:45:39] <JonathanThompson> I suspect BeOS is more responsive on this old system than KDE is on your much newer system.[08:45:58] <JonathanThompson> Your new system is a lot faster, but how the GUI is handled is quite different.[08:46:17] <thewolf> yeah[08:46:24] <thewolf> layers and layers[08:46:27] <JonathanThompson> Chances are that celery is your best solution, considering what the odds are otherwise.[08:47:19] <JonathanThompson> I'd suggest you catalog the hardware on that celery, and compare it to what's online as being listed as BeOS-compatible out of the box, combined with what you can find on BeBits.com[08:47:30] <thewolf> problem is the graphics card, it simply can't draw things fast enough, you move a window and the whole computer starts laggins[08:47:33] <JonathanThompson> I'm betting your only problem is you simply haven't tried yet :P[08:47:44] <JonathanThompson> Under which OS?[08:48:05] <thewolf> Windows 98[08:48:12] <JonathanThompson> How much RAM in the beast?[08:48:22] *** JonCruz has joined #haiku[08:48:23] <thewolf> With "draw window contents" disabled...[08:48:32] <thewolf> 256mb[08:48:37] <JonathanThompson> UMA?[08:48:51] <thewolf> no idea[08:49:08] <JonathanThompson> Unified Memory Architecture, where the video card uses memory out of main RAM?[08:49:29] <thewolf> the graphics card uses 4mb of system memory[08:49:44] <JonathanThompson> Hey, that's twice the RAM my Matrox Millenium has :P[08:49:59] <JonathanThompson> What have you got to lose by trying?[08:50:07] <thewolf> :P[08:50:29] <thewolf> Unfortunately memory isn't king[08:50:38] <JonathanThompson> How much use has it been with Windows 98 for the past few years, especially now you have that Athlon?[08:50:54] <JonathanThompson> You'll not have a problem with 256 megs being too little in BeOS.[08:51:08] <thewolf> not much, my mother uses it to play solitare however ;)[08:51:17] <JonathanThompson> In fact, you'll have to edit a kernel configuration file to keep a bad bug from hitting you because it has that much RAM.[08:51:20] <thewolf> yeah[08:51:30] *** Teknomancer has joined #haiku[08:51:33] * JonathanThompson notes Solitaire is probably available for most any OS[08:51:35] <thewolf> are there livecds of beos? That'd be a good test[08:51:36] <ddew|bofh> just make sure you avoid firefox[08:51:47] <thewolf> hah[08:51:48] <ddew|bofh> that eats ram like sugarcoated crack[08:51:51] <JonathanThompson> FireFox is simply a hog on any platform.[08:52:01] <ddew|bofh> morning btw[08:52:05] <JonathanThompson> I don't have a problem on this system for the RAM usage, ddew|bofh.[08:52:06] <JonCruz> hi[08:52:26] <JonathanThompson> Not much in the BeOS world makes effective use of RAM in large amounts.[08:52:27] <meianoite> well[08:52:32] <meianoite> printfs are useless now[08:52:33] <ddew|bofh> on 192mb ram it started swapping like crazy when i ran ff[08:52:42] <JonathanThompson> Yes, FireFox eats it up over time.[08:52:47] <meianoite> 'nite, folks[08:52:50] <ddew|bofh> nite[08:52:51] <JonCruz> any word on chances of GTK+ support?[08:52:52] <Teknomancer> just out of curiosity, what page replacement algorithm does haiku's vm use ?[08:52:56] *** meianoite has quit IRC[08:52:57] <JonathanThompson> Adding 64 megs more makes a world of difference :)[08:53:00] <ddew|bofh> over time being the first 5 seconds after launch? :P[08:53:19] <JonathanThompson> JonCruz, the chances are improved >100% if you start working on the port yourself :)[08:54:01] <ddew|bofh> if gtk or qt gets ported to haiku i'm gonna start shooting people in the face[08:54:16] <JonathanThompson> (even if that's beyond your skills/available time/energy, that STILL improves the chances over 100%)[08:54:19] <ddew|bofh> the beauty of beos is it's slim, efficient and damn sexy widget set[08:54:44] <JonCruz> I'm a dev on Inkscape, and we got an RFE to support Haiky[08:54:47] <JonCruz> Haiku[08:54:48] <JonathanThompson> I'm not interested in a GTK port for BeOS, personally.[08:54:49] <ddew|bofh> engineered for nothing but speed and functionality[08:54:50] <Begasus> anyone seen krilla in here lately?[08:55:08] <JonathanThompson> Nope, Begasus. I haven't.[08:55:17] <Begasus> thnx[08:55:18] <Teknomancer> haiku doesn't need gtk or qt![08:55:24] <Begasus> hey Teknomancer! ;)[08:55:32] <Teknomancer> hi Begasus[08:55:39] <ddew|bofh> problem is that gtk will most likely get ported for it and with a ton of memory-hungry and ugly apps :([08:55:40] <JonathanThompson> The native BeOS threading model for the GUI makes such things much more difficult than most systems.[08:55:41] <JonCruz> good. I basically put that in a comment on it.[08:55:57] <JonathanThompson> What did you put in a comment, exactly?[08:56:24] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson err, why is it more difficult? dealing with native linux C API for GUIs are far harder[08:56:29] <JonCruz> first we'd need someone to work on the port/patches, but that most importantly would be to get GTK+ support[08:56:30] <Teknomancer> than beos C++ API[08:56:37] <JonCruz> without that, the chances of porting are very low[08:56:49] <JonathanThompson> Teknomancer, what other system (perhaps other than Syllable) forces you to use a new thread for every new window?[08:57:15] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson but what's wrong with using a thread for each window?[08:57:26] <JonathanThompson> You're missing the point of my question :)[08:57:27] <JonCruz> I gathered from the FAQ and misc info that GTK+ itself may not be welcome, even if some apps would be[08:57:30] <ddew|bofh> has the idea of adding basic compositing functionality for the window_server been discussed?[08:58:04] <ddew|bofh> not for a flashy gui but for fixing window redraw issues and things of that nature[08:58:13] <ddew|bofh> sort of like skyos[08:58:22] <JonathanThompson> It most certainly won't be an R1 thing.[08:58:22] <JonCruz> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1701656&group_id=93438&atid=604309[08:58:25] <Teknomancer> ddew|bofh window shadows? :PPP[08:58:45] <ddew|bofh> i like windows being redrawn properly, screw window shadows :)[08:58:57] <Teknomancer> window shadows on mac look cool[08:59:05] <JonCruz> JonathanThompson: if anyone would care to comment on it, including OS intent, that would be good. At the moment our sourcebase is *very* tied to GtkMM and GTK+.[08:59:13] <ddew|bofh> although proper transparency as an option for the terminal could be nice[08:59:28] <JonathanThompson> I'm not too familiar with those libraries, JonCruz.[08:59:42] <JonathanThompson> Is it normal for several windows to share the same thread, as Windows typically has?[09:00:01] <Teknomancer> http://docs.cs.up.ac.za/programming/asm/derick_tut/syscalls.html <-- is there a page like this for haiku ? :))[09:00:24] <JonCruz> JonathanThompson: don't need to be too familiar... just know that the chance of getting Inkscape's source without needing them is very low. Thus if GTK+ does not fit with Haiku goals, we probably won't support it soon[09:00:29] <JonathanThompson> Also, if GTK uses pthreads, that's a bit lacking in BeOS.[09:00:51] <JonCruz> GTK can use them, but our app is actually single threadded to reduce complexity[09:01:02] *** phrizek has quit IRC[09:01:11] <JonathanThompson> It isn't possible in BeOS to have a GUI app with fewer than 2 threads, JonCruz.[09:01:24] <Teknomancer> there was one article a long time ago for single threads[09:01:27] <Teknomancer> when they did Opera[09:01:28] <JonathanThompson> One for BApplication, and one each for a BWindow.[09:01:32] <Teknomancer> but it was probably an extreme hack[09:01:38] <JonCruz> my other question, though, has to do with icons and such. I'm the dev doing most of Inkscape's icon support. So I'm always interested in artist needs and workflows for niche targets[09:02:04] * JonathanThompson is a non-GUI person in terms of being an artist....[09:02:07] *** slaine_ has joined #haiku[09:02:54] <JonathanThompson> I'd strongly suggest that anything you do for BeOS/Haiki is native and takes advantage/accounts for the major differences from other platforms.[09:03:09] <JonathanThompson> It'd likely be easier to do that than to try to port something from a system that's too different.[09:03:16] <JonathanThompson> (At least for GUI stuff)[09:03:47] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[09:03:54] <JonCruz> JonathanThompson: That was my feeling also. GTK+ on win32 is so-so, but then Windows users are used to that. BeOS users I knew/know of are much more particular[09:04:04] <thewolf> porting programming languages is going to be fun :/[09:04:15] <JonathanThompson> Also, you CAN'T put all BWindows in the same thread.[09:04:49] <JonathanThompson> BeOS doesn't know the meaning of "single-threaded GUI application" and can't be made to work that way, period..[09:05:04] <JonathanThompson> (Not unless you want to take over the entire screen with BDirectScreen)[09:05:19] <Teknomancer> since i'm so used to the beos model the single threaded model seems so weird![09:05:38] <geist> and even then, the concept of bdirectwindow probably is out ofdate[09:05:44] <JonathanThompson> Indeed.[09:05:59] <geist> modern stuff doesn't want a direct framebuffer, it wants hardware to draw stuff into the framebuffer for it[09:07:06] <JonathanThompson> If your main application were a backend sort of thing, and could dispatch messages to a separate process to render information and send input back to it, it wouldn't be too hard to port to BeOS.[09:07:33] <Grackle> geist, is that change planned for Haiku (R2, perhaps)?[09:07:49] <geist> beats me, I only worry about the kernel[09:07:58] * Grackle shrugs[09:08:40] <Grackle> I imagine something along those lines will happen eventually.[09:10:53] <JonCruz> BTW, congratulations on the SoC projects[09:11:29] <JonathanThompson> So, has this foray into #Haiku provided you the answers you were needing, JonCruz?[09:12:01] <JonCruz> yes.[09:12:27] <JonCruz> mainly to verify that GTK+ is ugly and it is wanted for it to stay away. :-)[09:12:37] <JonathanThompson> :P[09:12:40] *** myob has joined #haiku[09:12:41] <ddew|bofh> good lad ;)[09:13:00] <JonCruz> I never played much with BeOS, but I did work with several people who had[09:13:18] <JonathanThompson> Trying to overlay the equivalent of the Windows method of working would be about as ugly to do on BeOS, I'm sure.[09:13:50] <JonathanThompson> While Windows can do a thread for each window, it also typically has all windows of a process in the same thread.[09:15:37] <JonathanThompson> Unless you separate program logic out into a separate process that communicates with all BWindows, it'd be a very nasty port and wouldn't behave well in BeOS.[09:15:54] <JonathanThompson> You'd have to lock down things to handle messaging the way you were accustomed to doing.[09:16:29] <JonCruz> Yeah. It would probably require a fork, not just a port.[09:16:42] <JonathanThompson> It'd be a steak fork :)[09:16:50] <JonathanThompson> Big and meaty, with blood running down it.[09:17:02] * Grackle notices that Haiku people seem to like puns[09:17:13] <gravy> mostly JonathanThompson[09:17:18] <Teknomancer> nah only JonathanThompson[09:17:21] <Teknomancer> :P[09:17:26] <JonathanThompson> Not true! :)[09:17:30] <Teknomancer> haha[09:17:48] <gravy> ok everybody loves puns[09:17:56] <Grackle> It really isn't. *has seen more puns in a couple days here than he does in a month*[09:17:58] <gravy> it's just that JT's are the best![09:18:01] <JonathanThompson> Most people can't/don't keep up with my level of punmanship, that's all :P[09:18:08] <Grackle> :P[09:18:15] <myob> JTs punning is exceptionally hard to keep up with...[09:18:48] <Teknomancer> i liked the one where he said something like if an elephant charges you its going to be a big bill or something .. LOL[09:18:54] <JonathanThompson> I'll take that as a compliment, myob :)[09:19:09] <myob> because a lot of them make very little sense to an Irish, non-christian who didn't live through the 80s :P[09:19:20] <Teknomancer> lol[09:19:39] * JonathanThompson doesn't see that many of his puns are time-specific or religion-specific....[09:19:44] <JonathanThompson> Maybe just myob is :)[09:20:23] <ddew|bofh> JT's punnicity transcends religion or time[09:20:25] <myob> JonathanThompson: a number of them can be, that said its mainly the ones relating to 80s pop culture...[09:20:44] <Teknomancer> i dont like pop much[09:20:49] <JonathanThompson> Rots your teeth.[09:20:51] <Teknomancer> :P[09:20:55] <JonathanThompson> Moms are almost as bad :P[09:21:55] <gravy> what's a mom? geez I can't understand this american english...[09:22:00] <JonathanThompson> Mother.[09:22:04] <JonathanThompson> Pop=dad.[09:22:07] <JonathanThompson> Or father...[09:22:28] <Teknomancer> even i got it and i'm not american[09:22:29] <Teknomancer> :)[09:22:32] <Grackle> or mailman, har har[09:22:33] <thewolf> Mum has a U in it.[09:22:44] <gravy> that's what I like to see Teknomancer[09:22:47] <gravy> er thewolf[09:22:51] <JonathanThompson> But Mum isn't the most common mutation here.[09:23:13] <thewolf> You mutated, sure :P[09:23:15] <JonathanThompson> It is used, but it isn't the only or main one.[09:23:16] <Teknomancer> well for punning spelling doesn't matter as much as pronounciation[09:23:39] <myob> ameriglish also breaks punning..[09:23:53] * JonathanThompson notes Teknomancer making a Pronunciation Proclamation for Punning[09:23:54] <thewolf> amglish[09:23:55] <ddew|bofh> query, is finding Slayer on full blast relaxing weird? :P[09:24:20] <thewolf> nope[09:24:23] <Teknomancer> nope[09:24:26] <myob> no. Is HAVING slayer on at full blast weird? Yeah :P[09:24:26] <Grackle> No, it's just a sign of hearing damage.[09:24:37] <JonathanThompson> WHAT????[09:24:41] <ddew|bofh> heh[09:24:52] <ddew|bofh> eardrums are for little girls[09:24:59] <Grackle> haha[09:24:59] <JonathanThompson> I don't like my music too loud: it hurts my ears.[09:25:32] <ddew|bofh> my hearing is really bad after being in a black metal band for a few years[09:25:35] <Grackle> I find it difficult to think when my music is too loud, and I alays want to think.[09:25:39] <thewolf> I've just setup a 500wrms amp ment for a car sub to power my main speakers, I'll be deaf soon[09:25:43] <Teknomancer> i know some ppl who use earphones and sit a good 10 feet away from me and i can hear the drumming from them[09:25:59] <myob> Teknomancer: you can usually hear the entire track 1ft away from me :P[09:26:10] <JonathanThompson> I've got earphones that powerful, but I've never used them that loud against my head.[09:26:19] <Teknomancer> myob 1 ft is fine but 10 feet and hearing most of it is waay too loud[09:26:34] <Grackle> I don't have anyone to bother, so I just have my computer connected to my stereo.[09:26:37] <myob> typo, meant 10[09:26:40] <Teknomancer> and that guy was listening to dance Aaaal day long :([09:26:43] <myob> not just hte drums, the entire music...[09:26:48] <JonathanThompson> Teknomancer, I've got an old pair of Radio Shack headphones I can use for my computer speakers and hear most anywhere in my apartment :P[09:27:02] <Grackle> haha o.o[09:27:03] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson hah[09:27:07] <JonathanThompson> (without them being on my head)[09:27:11] <thewolf> nasty[09:27:23] <myob> Sennheiser = wonderful for inducing early onset deafness :D[09:27:26] *** weltschmerz has quit IRC[09:27:28] <Teknomancer> i'd tend to think they might damage the headphones as well at such high volumes[09:27:29] <ddew|bofh> i'm an oxymoron, a black metal fan audiophile :P[09:27:35] <myob> oh well, I can always sue some random nightclub promotoers[09:27:39] <Teknomancer> i'm currently usign Sennheiser :)[09:27:47] <thewolf> you know it's loud when your friend two houses down tells you to shut up[09:28:00] <JonathanThompson> ddew|bofh, I go by a username of "StrictNon-Conformist" on a couple of web forums :)[09:28:01] <ddew|bofh> i'm on marantz and audio pro atm[09:28:10] <ddew|bofh> heh[09:28:12] <thewolf> KEF rules[09:28:25] <thewolf> (if we're speaking audio brands)[09:28:34] <myob> German engineered, Irish made, perfect combination ;)[09:28:35] <ddew|bofh> i like old gear, like from the 70s[09:28:52] <JonathanThompson> A sure sign I'm slightly overwhelmed/tired is when I speak a sentence/paragraph in something resembling RPN.[09:28:55] <ddew|bofh> before everyone removed knobs and started adding lcd's :)[09:28:59] <thewolf> ddew|bofh, my main speakers are from the 70s :)[09:29:19] <ddew|bofh> same here, back when audio pro where good[09:29:30] <JonathanThompson> Note that's before CD's came out...[09:29:31] <myob> JonathanThompson: or when it starts to turn in to a "write your own ending" book sentance[09:29:32] <JonathanThompson> Hmmm...[09:29:35] <myob> like that one you just wrote :P[09:29:59] <JonathanThompson> ...[09:30:08] <myob> I had a first-gen CD deck here and I'm sure it sounded better than my Denons, but it blew up :/[09:30:33] <JonathanThompson> In with a bang, out with a whimper from myob....[09:30:36] <ddew|bofh> first-gen, sneeze and they skip[09:30:39] <myob> JT the whole "overwhelmed/tired" "sentence/paragraph" thing looks like a choice....[09:30:51] <JonathanThompson> Not entirely.[09:31:01] <JonathanThompson> I may not realize what my state is until too late.[09:31:41] <myob> ddew|bofh: not that skipping was a bad thing when Bruce Springsteen was the only CD on the market ;)[09:31:59] <myob> when my father bought it, Tower Records had a single CD rack, about ten different albums[09:32:05] <Teknomancer> skip the entire CD :P[09:32:20] <ddew|bofh> myob: good point :)[09:32:44] <myob> that said the way its going now soon Tower Records will have more vinyl than CDs again![09:32:52] <myob> (we still have Tower here, I know its gone in the US)[09:33:12] <thewolf> ddew|bofh, found a picture: http://www.saturn-sound.com/images/diy%20transmission%20line%20loudspeakers.jpg[09:33:20] <thewolf> bad quality but meh[09:33:31] <ddew|bofh> purty :)[09:33:34] * JonathanThompson wonders when the next WalterCon will be[09:34:10] <myob> JonathanThompson: whenever the organising committee come back from the vanished[09:34:16] <thewolf> ddew|bofh, they're the best bass speakers I've ever seen :P[09:34:17] <myob> what happened to Czeslaw anyway?[09:34:34] <JonathanThompson> Perhaps I'd better start planning one myself, then, in Microsoft's backyard :P[09:34:50] <CIA-17> jackburton * r20744 /haiku/trunk/src/preferences/mouse/MouseWindow.cpp:[09:34:50] <CIA-17> The Mouse window is now centered if it's too close to the border of the[09:34:50] <CIA-17> screen when shown (on start). Usually it was put in the top left corner[09:34:50] <CIA-17> on the screen when you first start it (very annoying).[09:34:50] <ddew|bofh> http://user.it.uu.se/~erikb/images/cm3.jpg[09:34:51] <myob> its meant to swap coasts back to you isn't it?[09:34:59] <ddew|bofh> there are my speakers[09:35:09] <ddew|bofh> a photo of them anyway ;)[09:35:10] <JonathanThompson> That's what Phipps was intending, yes.[09:35:34] <ddew|bofh> don't have them plugged in atm though :([09:35:42] <JonathanThompson> If Phipps has his way, it'll be somewhere in California, which means a fairly short flight for me.[09:35:57] <JonathanThompson> Heck, if I had the time available, a long drive.[09:36:19] <JonathanThompson> (But I'm not sure I'd want to drive >2K miles in the same weekend)[09:36:28] <myob> when its going to come over to the rest of the world, and main userbase is what I wanna know[09:36:44] <JonathanThompson> Isn't that what BeGeistert is all about? :)[09:37:01] <myob> no, its a german fight-fest :P:[09:37:12] <ddew|bofh> wasn't that like yt's thing?[09:37:24] <JonathanThompson> I think yT had little to do with that.[09:37:29] <JonathanThompson> (BeGeistert)[09:37:35] <myob> no, it predates them seriously[09:37:38] <myob> first held in 98 IIRC[09:37:44] <ddew|bofh> ah[09:37:55] <myob> around the time the fight in the BeOS world was wheter x86 was viable ;)[09:38:10] <ddew|bofh> hehe[09:39:53] <ddew|bofh> aww, that was a sad picture :([09:39:55] <ddew|bofh> http://83.14.10.130/~beos/l/last_day_at_Be_2.jpg[09:41:17] *** Tenzin has joined #haiku[09:41:20] * JonathanThompson goes off to bed, more or less[09:41:29] <ddew|bofh> nn[09:41:39] <thewolf> see you[09:41:45] <JonathanThompson> Bye![09:41:54] <JonathanThompson> Oh, btw, another punster just logged in...[09:42:11] <JonCruz> Eeeek![09:42:14] *** JonCruz has quit IRC[09:43:43] *** Sloar has quit IRC[09:45:59] *** Teknomancer has quit IRC[09:48:23] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[09:50:47] *** Euver has joined #haiku[10:04:22] <Begasus> Tenzin![10:04:30] <Begasus> long time no see[10:04:33] <Tenzin> Hi[10:04:41] <Begasus> doing alright?[10:04:44] <Tenzin> long time no IRC for me :)[10:04:47] <Tenzin> yesish[10:04:50] <Begasus> ;)[10:04:53] <Begasus> good ;)[10:04:58] <Tenzin> plans to move to Munich are over[10:05:05] <Begasus> how come?[10:05:14] <Tenzin> she ended it[10:05:19] <Begasus> ouch ...[10:05:22] <Begasus> sorry to hear[10:05:23] <Tenzin> three weeks ago[10:05:47] <Begasus> seems like the spring isn't the best time of year for relations ... :s[10:05:59] <Tenzin> she did this may last year, started talking about us getting back together in september, this time I didn't hurt[10:06:57] <Tenzin> three lady friends in the US wasted no time telling me they want me the minute they found out I was single and not moving to Germany anymore[10:07:06] <Begasus> well get's you back in the bacholars list ;)[10:07:07] <Tenzin> one has offered me a room in her home[10:07:10] <Begasus> hehe[10:07:23] <stargater> hi Begasus[10:07:26] <Tenzin> they all know each other too, not a drop off jealousy between them[10:07:30] <Begasus> hya[10:07:31] <Tenzin> off/of[10:07:47] <Begasus> w00t ... so you can switch :p[10:08:29] <Tenzin> so now I'm halfway between thinking of moving to Carolina, or Netherlands where a friend of mine at Philips says I can literally walk into the Medical Imaging research side[10:09:11] <Tenzin> given a choice of molecules and brains vs bugs at Pixar, I still prefer Medical Imaging :)[10:09:39] <Begasus> better think about the future yep ;)[10:10:03] <Begasus> either way ... it will be a new road to go on[10:10:30] <Tenzin> yes[10:11:46] <Tenzin> my friend at Philips is starting his own company at some point in the next few years[10:12:06] <Begasus> ow ... sounds good/promissing[10:12:09] <Tenzin> 3D imaging an animation oriented systems and OS[10:12:54] <Tenzin> yes, very interesting, we've been having some mind blowingly good tech discussions[10:13:23] <Tenzin> he's coming to visit me in 10 days, mainly social with his gf, but also some tech stuff[10:13:26] <Begasus> even with an OS?[10:13:55] <Begasus> based on any existing one?[10:14:02] <Tenzin> without giving away secrets, mach ish[10:14:08] <Begasus> ;)[10:14:15] <Begasus> nice[10:14:54] <Tenzin> we are both Irix lovers, and miss fine things like OPENSTEP and BeOS being in the pro market[10:15:04] <Begasus> hope we'll see you once in a while when you're the 'big' guy ;)[10:15:33] <Tenzin> IT mainstreaming down to Windows, OSX, Linux or Solaris isn't good for anyone[10:16:28] <Tenzin> of course you will ... I'll be on Jerry Springer opposite Gates, Jobs and McNealy for accusing them of having lost it, regularly ;)[10:16:44] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[10:16:52] <Begasus> hehe[10:17:04] <Begasus> hi emitrax[10:17:21] <Tenzin> OSX still isn't as object oriented as OPENSTEP was 10 years ago[10:17:59] <Begasus> still haven't try'd it here[10:18:04] <Begasus> no hw for it[10:18:28] <Tenzin> you have a Thinkpad T30 or similar yes ? :)[10:18:43] <emitrax> good morning[10:18:44] <Begasus> nope :p[10:18:54] <Tenzin> it was those that Darwin/OSX x86 was developed on[10:19:12] <Begasus> fujitsu-siemens laptops here[10:19:16] <Tenzin> aah[10:19:29] <Begasus> never got to install run Darwin on the hw either here ...[10:19:35] <Tenzin> I liked the alpine/moss green siemens laptops[10:19:42] <Tenzin> never got around to getting one though[10:20:19] <Begasus> the screen from my laptop died on me ... now I have to use the wife's laptop (appart from the pc)[10:20:34] <Begasus> but that has a S3 vid ... no fun in running VESA[10:20:49] <Tenzin> same as VPC[10:21:25] <Begasus> yep .. or qemu ... great to take a quick look at something ... but not to work with as a full system[10:22:06] <Tenzin> almost useless for graphics or video ;)[10:22:23] <Begasus> specialy those ;)[10:22:44] <Tenzin> "is that a nude woman or a stack of cardboard boxes ?"[10:22:44] <Tenzin> "no idea, man" :)[10:22:54] <Begasus> lol[10:23:12] <Begasus> wait 'till the picture is loaded after an hour ;)[10:24:02] <raph_ael> hello[10:24:06] <stargater> bbl[10:24:30] <Begasus> well the laptop is good for IRC email atm ... network is still bugy with the via rhine nic[10:24:33] <Begasus> hi raph_ael[10:24:42] <raph_ael> :)[10:25:08] <Begasus> and the new one on BeBits freezes the system here ...[10:26:07] <Tenzin> I have to install the above 512 MB RAM kernel fix before I can run BeOS on my Thinkpad again[10:26:38] <Tenzin> I upgraded RAM to 768 about a year ago and didn't add the kernel fix, only been using BeOS on PPC since[10:27:16] <Tenzin> PPC BeOS is a nice, frozen, stable OS, like Irix and Rhapsody :)[10:27:17] <Begasus> still running with 512MB on the laptop/pc ...[10:27:26] <Begasus> ;)[10:28:22] <myob> Tenzin: R5 can run on 768[10:28:40] <Tenzin> MYOB, it has been refusing to boot here[10:29:01] <Tenzin> I reckoned it was due to 768 Mb RAM + 16 MB VRAM[10:30:21] *** tombhadAC has quit IRC[10:30:47] *** avkig has quit IRC[10:30:53] <myob> well, considering the kernel window is ~1150MB....[10:31:03] <myob> its probably another reason[10:31:49] <Tenzin> if you ever come to London before I escape, I would greatly appreciate the benefit of your experience with this[10:32:07] <Tenzin> same re that rare compat wifi card that refuses to do jack[10:32:14] *** Karina`` has quit IRC[10:39:49] <myob> I've not been in lahndahn in 11 years[10:40:04] <myob> but I might make myself go to see Ferry Corsten in, erm, june I think[10:41:25] *** avkig has joined #haiku[10:41:37] *** Pulko_Mandy has joined #haiku[10:46:57] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[10:47:00] *** Pulko__Mandy has joined #haiku[10:47:28] <Lelldorin1> hello all[10:49:11] <Begasus> moin Lelldorin1 ;)[10:49:14] *** Thom_Holwerda has joined #haiku[10:49:25] <Begasus> g'morgen Thom_Holwerda ;)[10:49:29] <Thom_Holwerda> mogguh[10:53:14] <thewolf> I'm looking forward to the day when osnews doesn't make my eyes bleed :)[10:55:29] *** PulkoMandy has quit IRC[10:55:43] *** Euver has quit IRC[11:01:06] *** Pulko_Mandy has quit IRC[11:01:56] <myob> you mean, the day it loosk worrying like slashdot but a different colour? *ducks*[11:05:45] <Tenzin> what are osnews and slashdot ? *runs*[11:07:42] <thewolf> meh, slashdot is annoying anyway[11:08:15] <myob> why does DaaT talk about the Appearance icon and then not screeny it?[11:09:50] <stargater> re[11:10:04] <stargater> myob, mom[11:10:41] <stargater> myob, http://tm.kaldience.com/data/php/dir.php?dir=/dir/members/stargater/bilder/haiku_shots/HAIKU_rev20710[11:10:47] <stargater> screen3.png[11:13:32] *** Karina`` has joined #haiku[11:14:20] <stargater> myob, see you it yet :-) ?[11:16:53] <myob> stargater one minute...[11:20:23] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[11:20:24] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[11:23:19] <Thom_Holwerda> thewolf: what?[11:23:56] <thewolf> Just saying I like the new version[11:27:28] <stargater> so i mast go to reallive work , cu later[11:27:51] *** stargater has quit IRC[11:31:07] *** FiddleStix has quit IRC[11:31:56] *** FiddleStix has joined #haiku[11:33:37] <CIA-17> jackburton * r20745 /haiku/trunk/src/kits/interface/TextView.cpp:[11:33:37] <CIA-17> Use LineHeight() instead of StyledWidthUTF8Safe() to get the height of[11:33:37] <CIA-17> the line in PointAt(), since the former didn't return the correct[11:33:37] <CIA-17> result, due to the fact that there were 0 charachters on that line.[11:33:37] <CIA-17> Fixed a bug in TextHeight() which ended up doubling the[11:33:37] <CIA-17> height of the line if we requested the last line.[11:34:16] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[11:36:32] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[11:45:24] *** avkig has quit IRC[11:45:54] *** ul1984_ has joined #haiku[11:51:47] *** Begasus has quit IRC[11:52:08] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[11:57:42] *** ul1984 has quit IRC[12:05:25] *** whoopsbob has joined #haiku[12:05:52] *** bobwhoops has quit IRC[12:08:38] *** Teknomancer has joined #haiku[12:13:32] *** Teknomancer has quit IRC[12:27:52] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[12:27:52] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[12:31:11] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[12:31:32] *** avkig has joined #haiku[12:35:52] *** Thom_Holwerda has quit IRC[12:48:43] *** GreyGhost has joined #haiku[12:52:49] *** Eji has joined #haiku[13:13:59] *** eNGIMa has joined #haiku[13:15:32] *** Teknomancer has joined #haiku[13:16:35] *** bga has joined #haiku[13:16:35] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o bga[13:21:06] <mmu_man> plop bga[13:23:22] *** avkig has quit IRC[13:29:30] *** avkig has joined #haiku[13:39:35] *** GreyGhost has quit IRC[13:49:43] *** Eji has quit IRC[13:54:17] *** jiuda_D`arkness has joined #haiku[13:54:22] <jiuda_D`arkness> hi all[13:54:35] <cizra> hello there[13:54:52] <Teknomancer> ihi jiuda_D`arkness[13:55:29] <jiuda_D`arkness> hi Teknomancer[13:55:42] <jiuda_D`arkness> The MTP is supported by BeOS or Haiku?[13:55:54] <jiuda_D`arkness> MediaTransfer Protocol[13:56:37] <cizra> I don't know, but my guess would be "no".[13:56:43] <Teknomancer> afaik no[13:57:18] <jiuda_D`arkness> ok : )[13:57:18] <mmu_man> any RFC ?[13:57:38] <jiuda_D`arkness> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol[14:00:08] <CIA-17> axeld * r20746 /haiku/trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs):[14:00:08] <CIA-17> Changed the progress monitor protocol to path a basic message that will be sent back[14:00:08] <CIA-17> instead of having a fixed message code.[14:00:39] *** thewolf has quit IRC[14:03:09] <mmu_man> M$... shrug[14:03:50] *** Jixt has quit IRC[14:04:28] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[14:07:47] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[14:09:04] <myob> MTP isn't properly supported by !windows[14:09:13] <myob> mtplite is, to an extent[14:09:39] <jiuda_D`arkness> mmmm[14:09:40] <myob> my Zen went from the linux+mac support Nomad protocol to MTP with an update a while back :([14:10:51] <Ingenu> :([14:10:52] <mmu_man> hmm there is a port of libgphoto on bebits, isn't there ?[14:12:51] <[Beta]> myob, it sounds sucky :/[14:14:43] <mmu_man> hmm there's not :-([14:15:03] <jiuda_D`arkness> I would want to make a port of libmtp from linux[14:17:08] <jiuda_D`arkness> http://sourceforge.net/projects/libmtp/[14:20:57] <CIA-17> axeld * r20747 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/translators/raw/RAWTranslator.cpp:[14:20:57] <CIA-17> Added a setting "raw:half_size" that can be used to reduce the image size by half which greatly speeds up the conversion.[14:20:57] <CIA-17> Maybe we should introduce a more generic "preview mode" to the translators that could automatically trigger those things?[14:35:42] *** jiuda_D`arkness has quit IRC[14:36:47] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[14:46:37] *** FiddleStix has quit IRC[14:48:40] <myob> libmtp needs libusb[14:53:31] <mmu_man> that shouldn't be a problem[14:53:44] <mmu_man> it's been ported to win[14:53:57] <mmu_man> just need to make the usb_raw header public[14:54:14] <mmu_man> mean't to doit once[14:54:27] <mmu_man> but sane goes without it well :)[14:55:50] <myob> yeah, I need it for sane for my scanner, erm, I mean the Community needs it![14:56:04] <myob> yeah, not just me... not selfish... really...[14:57:19] <mmu_man> hmm, some backends still use it instead of sanei ?[14:57:32] <mmu_man> fix it[14:57:38] <mmu_man> I fixed one already[14:57:57] <mmu_man> sanei should wrap around libusb if found but not the backend[14:58:04] *** guma has joined #haiku[15:01:59] <myob> this is a third party backend that seems to insist point blank on it[15:05:40] <mmu_man> stupid[15:07:26] *** cizra has left #haiku[15:09:42] <myob> and I don't have your l33t skillz to convert it ;)[15:11:39] <myob> and I can't even offer you B_SOME_PINTS to do it, damn nondrinker[15:13:35] <mmu_man> eh :)[15:14:02] <mmu_man> url ?[15:14:51] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[15:17:01] <Ingenu> damln[15:17:13] <Ingenu> some uninit var somewhere :([15:17:38] <myob> http://sourceforge.net/projects/hp3900-series[15:17:54] <myob> had to retype that...[15:18:36] <mmu_man> "it runs as stand-alone application and integrated in SANE project."[15:18:52] <mmu_man> suppose that's why they don't want to depend on sane strictly[15:18:57] <mmu_man> that's INsane[15:19:09] <mmu_man> is it a backend or a whole app ?[15:19:16] <myob> both IIRC[15:19:23] <myob> its been a long time since I looked at it[15:19:28] <mmu_man> well they should make their mind[15:19:32] <mmu_man> its plain stupid[15:19:35] *** absabs has joined #haiku[15:19:46] <myob> I also need to try my concept that recompiling GS on Zeta with the samsung-gdi driver might make my printer work...[15:19:51] <myob> but I'm too lazy ;)[15:20:59] <myob> (well I actually did try and it doesn't work, or more likely, I ballsed it up)[15:24:31] <mmu_man> talk to me about being lazy[15:25:28] <myob> at least you FINISH some projects! :P[15:26:06] <mmu_man> do ? :)[15:26:10] <mmu_man> do I[15:26:22] *** jiuda_D`arkness has joined #haiku[15:26:25] <mmu_man> I'm not really in the mood these days :-([15:26:59] <Ingenu> that happens[15:27:10] <Ingenu> have a job & working on Haiku on your free time ,[15:27:11] <Ingenu> ,=?[15:27:57] <Ingenu> stupid, stupid, stupid.... just did a rebuild all in Debug instead of release...[15:28:51] <Teknomancer> :)[15:30:52] *** emitrax has quit IRC[15:33:53] *** guma has quit IRC[15:41:03] <mmu_man> hmm actually SANE would benefit from a libusb anyway, as it's using the usb_scanner driver for now[15:41:09] <mmu_man> which has a hardcoded list of devices[15:41:22] <mmu_man> and has no added value from usb_raw[15:41:39] <mmu_man> except it doesn't work with newer models because they aren't in the list[15:41:54] <Ingenu> fix it ![15:43:08] <mmu_man> the fix would be to use usb_raw directly[15:43:13] <mmu_man> or libusb anyway[15:44:12] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[16:02:48] <mmu_man> anyone ever compared perfs of a gcc2 build vs gcc4 ?[16:03:42] *** guildencrantz has joined #haiku[16:04:24] *** guma has joined #haiku[16:07:51] *** FiddleStix has joined #haiku[16:10:07] *** Tenzin has quit IRC[16:12:06] *** arikato has quit IRC[16:14:40] *** Begasus has quit IRC[16:14:58] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[16:18:04] *** Mazon is now known as mazon[16:25:53] *** Sloar has joined #haiku[16:28:04] *** SiCuTDeUx has joined #haiku[16:38:44] *** emitrax__ has joined #haiku[16:38:45] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[16:38:46] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[16:44:23] *** StylusEater_Work has joined #haiku[16:55:49] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[17:00:13] <myob> work has ghone mental here in the past hour :/[17:02:27] <DeadYak> oh?[17:02:32] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[17:04:08] *** FiddleStix has quit IRC[17:04:27] <guildencrantz> If work wasn't mental I wouldn't have a job.[17:05:22] *** emitrax has quit IRC[17:05:34] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[17:07:02] *** FiddleStix has joined #haiku[17:11:55] *** SiCuTDeUx has quit IRC[17:12:21] *** emitrax__ has quit IRC[17:14:06] *** Crumbs has joined #haiku[17:18:59] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[17:23:37] *** Teknomancer has quit IRC[17:31:13] *** FiddleStix has quit IRC[17:33:21] *** MauriceK has joined #haiku[17:34:23] *** slaine_ has quit IRC[17:38:23] *** santagada has joined #haiku[17:38:28] *** SiCuTDeUx has joined #haiku[17:39:32] *** mazon is now known as Mazon[17:43:08] *** brecht has joined #haiku[17:43:11] <brecht> hello[17:43:43] <brecht> I have a little trouble booting BeOS[17:44:04] <DeadYak> which version?[17:44:08] <brecht> R5[17:44:22] <Ingenu> on which hardware ?[17:44:23] <brecht> on the PC at home I can boot BeOS using the FreeBSD boot manager boot0[17:44:33] <brecht> x86[17:44:47] <Ingenu> I was thinking CPU/Chipset[17:45:12] <brecht> I tried using boot0 on this PC too, but when selecting the BeOS partition for boot results only in a beep :/[17:45:20] <brecht> nforce2/Athlon[17:45:30] <brecht> I can boot from a bootdisk though[17:45:50] <Ingenu> AthlonXP need patched kernel[17:45:55] <Ingenu> (and l8r)[17:46:00] <brecht> when I try to install the BeOS bootman, it warns it cannot find the disk /boot is on (or something like that)[17:46:11] <brecht> Ingenu: yes, I have that[17:46:27] <Ingenu> mmhh[17:46:45] <brecht> I should probably mention that BeOS is installed on a partition on the slave disk[17:46:51] *** kr1stof has quit IRC[17:46:54] <brecht> but that's the same as on my home PC[17:51:04] *** Crumbs has quit IRC[17:53:31] <brecht> brb[17:53:33] *** brecht has quit IRC[17:56:49] *** myob has quit IRC[17:59:29] *** brecht has joined #haiku[18:01:05] <brecht> "Unable to get the BIOS drive number for the BeOS boot volume (/boot) This may occur because BeOS is unable to distinguish between two disks with identical partition maps ..."[18:04:26] <Ingenu> :([18:05:23] *** ekdahl has joined #haiku[18:07:00] <brecht> can I create a bootdisk in BeOS (using my kernel)?[18:07:29] <Ingenu> yes[18:07:49] <Ingenu> makebootfloppy I think[18:08:03] <Ingenu> there are option, might want to ask betips details about that[18:08:09] <Ingenu> optionS[18:09:07] <brecht> thanks[18:09:47] <brecht> what does makebootable do?[18:11:40] <Ingenu> make HDD bootable I think[18:11:57] <brecht> mmm, that's interesting :)[18:12:15] <Ingenu> need head home, no more food, shopping on the way[18:12:17] <Ingenu> l8r[18:12:18] <brecht> is there any documentation included in BeOS on shell commands?[18:12:22] <brecht> ciao[18:12:22] *** Ingenu has left #Haiku[18:12:39] <mmu_man> some html files[18:12:44] <mmu_man> but most are just unix commands[18:12:47] <brecht> man command never helps :)[18:12:51] <mmu_man> google:man foo[18:13:31] <brecht> I probably need makebootable[18:13:38] <brecht> let's just try it[18:13:53] * DeadYak pets mmu_man[18:14:07] <DeadYak> makebootable writes the partition's boot sector[18:14:14] <mmu_man> makebootable /partition[18:14:15] <brecht> how POSIX compatible is BeOS?[18:14:15] <DeadYak> whereas bootman writes to the MBR[18:14:30] <DeadYak> depends what part of the POSIX spec you're talking about[18:14:31] <mmu_man> enough to not have the crap that goes with it[18:15:06] <brecht> DeadYak: I guess BeOS doesn't make the partition bootable by default[18:15:06] <brecht> only when installing bootman[18:15:23] <brecht> DeadYak: is something like DOSBox easily portable for example[18:15:35] <brecht> starting from the linux source[18:17:03] <mmu_man> long time ported already[18:17:12] <brecht> Cannot find the BIOS drive id for: /dev/disk/ide/ata/slave/0/0_2[18:17:20] <brecht> mmu_man: not the last version[18:17:33] <brecht> but I want to know in general too[18:17:36] <mmu_man> well it's just noone bothered building it[18:17:41] <brecht> (perhaps I should just try :)[18:17:42] <mmu_man> just with a native gui cause X11 sux[18:18:24] * brecht nods in agreementy[18:19:00] <mmu_man> mmlr used to be the maintainer[18:21:52] *** MauriceK_ has joined #haiku[18:22:14] *** dr_evil has joined #haiku[18:22:14] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dr_evil[18:22:38] <mmu_man> plop[18:23:04] <dr_evil> hi mmu_man[18:23:09] *** santagada has quit IRC[18:23:14] <dr_evil> I need to leave in 5 min...[18:24:50] <mmu_man> so do i[18:25:04] <mmu_man> arg stupid mouse doesn't behabve today[18:27:55] <brecht> let's try... brb[18:28:01] *** brecht has quit IRC[18:29:24] <dr_evil> ok bye[18:29:25] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[18:32:48] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[18:33:13] *** MrRagga has joined #haiku[18:33:18] *** jsgotangco has joined #haiku[18:34:23] *** brecht has joined #haiku[18:34:27] <brecht> so that didn't work[18:35:02] <brecht> nvidia, nothing but trouble...[18:38:41] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[18:39:44] *** MauriceK has quit IRC[18:39:47] *** santagada has joined #haiku[18:45:37] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[18:45:50] <Lelldorin1> re[18:52:28] *** santagada has quit IRC[18:57:21] <TTRanger> JonathanThompson[18:57:27] <TTRanger> beep beep meep meep[18:57:40] *** gotaku has joined #haiku[18:58:01] <Begasus> mooo[18:58:31] <gotaku> booo[18:59:03] *** brecht has quit IRC[18:59:12] <Lelldorin1> dooo[18:59:19] <emitrax> is there some kind of tag like "quote" in the blog?[19:00:41] <emitrax> never mind[19:01:05] *** absabs has quit IRC[19:01:35] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[19:01:52] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[19:02:07] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[19:06:10] *** jsgotangco has quit IRC[19:11:23] *** brecht has joined #haiku[19:11:31] <brecht> bleh[19:12:13] <Begasus> bbl[19:12:19] *** Begasus is now known as Begasus_bbl[19:14:06] *** pikapika has joined #haiku[19:15:06] <pikapika> hello[19:15:46] <Lelldorin1> hi[19:16:47] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[19:17:58] *** MikeW has joined #haiku[19:18:49] *** Master199 has joined #haiku[19:24:30] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[19:26:38] *** jiuda_D`arkness has quit IRC[19:32:13] *** Sloar has quit IRC[19:32:43] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[19:33:32] *** kb7sqi has quit IRC[19:33:40] *** emitrax has quit IRC[19:39:09] *** Sloar has joined #haiku[19:41:02] *** arikato has joined #haiku[19:44:12] *** kokito has joined #haiku[19:44:30] *** pikapika has quit IRC[19:51:16] *** santagada has joined #haiku[19:54:47] *** _konrad has joined #haiku[19:56:05] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[19:58:20] <_konrad> Wow, its crowded in here[19:58:32] <_konrad> procton around?[19:58:39] *** oco has joined #haiku[20:05:48] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[20:08:58] *** _konrad has quit IRC[20:09:52] *** Euver has joined #haiku[20:14:19] <brecht> is there a working MSN client for BeOS?[20:15:36] <Pulko__Mandy> bMe is somewhat working[20:16:18] <brecht> for BONE?[20:16:51] <kokito> brecht, http://www.bebits.com/search?search=MSN&x=0&y=0[20:17:04] *** Nies has joined #haiku[20:18:33] <brecht> Pulko__Mandy: I can't seem to find bMe[20:19:02] <petterhj> brecht: I think BME is on hold currently. check kokitos link[20:20:15] <brecht> the BeMSN included with BeOS Max crashes on me[20:20:25] <brecht> I think I've tried IM kit once[20:20:28] <brecht> without success[20:20:40] <petterhj> BeMSN crashes for me as well. Maybe MSN++ works.[20:20:47] <brecht> I'll try that one[20:21:38] <brecht> heh, MSN++ is by a student at my uni[20:21:38] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[20:21:47] <brecht> the link is dead though :/[20:21:55] <brecht> bebits can use some cleaning up[20:22:12] <petterhj> you *could* try to build BME, but I'm not sure if it builds anymore..[20:22:24] <petterhj> maybe there's something at BeShare as well[20:23:21] <brecht> I found BME[20:24:12] <brecht> is it possible to have clicks register in inactive windows somehow?[20:24:25] <brecht> it's annoying having to first activate a window[20:24:43] *** devian__ has joined #haiku[20:24:44] <petterhj> you could enable Focus-Follows-Mouse[20:25:09] *** kb7sqi has joined #haiku[20:25:16] <brecht> and if I don't want that? :)[20:25:51] <petterhj> guess. (hint: Preferences->Mouse) ;)[20:25:57] <petterhj> oh.[20:26:01] <petterhj> right[20:26:01] *** devian__ has left #haiku[20:26:02] <petterhj> well.[20:26:07] <petterhj> Then I don't know.[20:26:08] <brecht> I know :)[20:26:31] <brecht> maybe when I ever dive into Haiku code[20:28:05] *** gotaku has quit IRC[20:28:11] <petterhj> The API does at least have B_ACCEPT_FIRST_CLICK (or something) :p[20:28:39] <brecht> ah, that's great :)[20:28:43] *** santagada has quit IRC[20:28:52] <brecht> perhaps it can be set as an option in a config file[20:28:59] <brecht> of course I wouldn't know where to find that[20:30:51] *** DaaT has joined #haiku[20:34:01] <brecht> Mouse_settings is in binary[20:34:39] <geist> yeah, a bunch of those prefs are binary[20:34:41] <geist> makes me cry[20:34:53] *** |DaaT| has joined #haiku[20:34:59] <brecht> what's this "warping" mouse follows mouse?[20:35:09] <brecht> I see no difference from "enabled"[20:35:26] * brecht looks for the manual[20:35:58][20:37:10] *** Euver has quit IRC[20:38:54] <brecht> http://haiku-os.org/community/forum/direct_close[20:39:53] *** korli has joined #haiku[20:39:53] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o korli[20:42:06] <brecht> petterhj: do you run an MSN client?[20:43:57] * brecht tries the web client[20:44:04] *** _DaaT_ has joined #haiku[20:44:50] <petterhj> brecht: I'm currently in Windows :p[20:45:18] <petterhj> I had to use online MSN myself under BeOS some time ago.. it's the only client that works under R5 currently I believe[20:46:47] <DeadYak> brecht: http://www.betips.net/chunga.php?id=077[20:47:50] <brecht> an Amiga Intuition mouse behaviour option would be nice too[20:48:37] <brecht> the twitcher, what was that again[20:49:21] <DeadYak> press ctrl+tab and hold down ctrl[20:50:46] <petterhj> thought it was press ctrl+alt and hold down tab?[20:50:55] <DeadYak> nope[20:50:56] <Grackle> brecht: how does the Amiga Intuition mouse behave?[20:51:00] <brecht> alt-tab it seels :)[20:51:03] <brecht> seems[20:51:05] <DeadYak> ctrl+tab or alt+tab depending on how you have the alt/ctrl behavior set up[20:51:07] <DeadYak> ah[20:51:14] <DeadYak> the default is ctrl+tab in R5[20:51:25] <brecht> I suppose MS copied that from BeOS then?[20:51:32] <DeadYak> mm, no[20:51:37] <DeadYak> MS has had that since Windows 3.1[20:51:41] <DeadYak> long before any rev of BeOS[20:51:46] <DeadYak> hell, windows 3.0 had it[20:51:55] <brecht> it's the one original Windows feature then! :)[20:52:24] <brecht> Grackle: focus doesn't follow the mouse, and you can select windows without bringing them to the front[20:52:37] <brecht> a double-click would bring them to the front[20:52:56] *** DaaT has quit IRC[20:53:59] <Grackle> Hmm brecht[20:54:41] <Grackle> I think the tracker needs to accept first clicks, that's all.[20:55:17] <brecht> that would be good[20:55:32] <brecht> the other thing would just be a nice extra for me personally[20:55:36] <DeadYak> accept first click can be confusing though[20:55:46] <DeadYak> and that would still bring them to the front with one click[20:56:58] <brecht> from that betips page: "What it's really useful for is when you want to focus without raising the window. If there were a way with click-to-focus to focus on a window without raising it, then there might be an argument."[20:57:26] <DeadYak> that has nothing to do with accept first click[20:57:43] <brecht> that's the Amiga behaviour[20:58:00] <DeadYak> accept first click still wouldn't give you the amiga behavior[20:58:09] <DeadYak> or at least not in the way you're describing[20:58:25] <Grackle> DeadYak, I argue that the opposite is confusing. A control is there. You click it, and the window comes to the front, but nothing else happens. That doesn't make sense. It should come to the front with the control activated, or the control should work without the app coming to the front. If we want controls not to work when they are in the background, they should disappear or something (and that sounds really awful).[20:58:26] *** pikapika has joined #haiku[20:58:59] <Pulko__Mandy> what about using another button to raise the window ?[20:59:15] *** stargater has joined #haiku[20:59:17] <stargater> hi[20:59:32] <Grackle> Windows, KDE, and gnome focus the window and activate the control on first click.[20:59:36] <Jixt> hi stargater[20:59:43] <brecht> DeadYak: I was talking about that quote[20:59:45] <stargater> hi Jixt :-)[20:59:48] <Grackle> I'm not saying BeOS has to do things the same way, but that seems to be the norm.[21:00:00] <DeadYak> Brecht: I read the quote[21:00:00] <brecht> Grackle: I'd prefer it to be configurable[21:00:01] <Grackle> Pulko__Mandy: that gets really confusing[21:00:07] <brecht> even if only in some config file[21:00:12] <Grackle> brecht: That's not the BeOS way.[21:00:22] <brecht> Grackle: I don't care :)[21:00:29] <Grackle> The BeOS way is to have stuff with sane defaults.[21:00:35] <DeadYak> frankly, if you want everything under the sun configurable, then something like KDE is for you[21:00:43] <Grackle> right[21:01:03] <DeadYak> one of the ways BeOS kept things simple was by *not* having options for every weird quirk that 1% of the userbase likes[21:01:08] <brecht> I tried KDE, but it's slow[21:01:15] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[21:01:47] <Grackle> I found KDE to be faster than gnome, but I'm sure there is a lot of other crap to be accounted for there.[21:01:54] *** |DaaT| has quit IRC[21:01:58] <DeadYak> Grackle: same[21:02:12] <DeadYak> then again, I've found GTK-based apps slow in general, not just in gnome[21:02:33] <Grackle> I run KDE; not because I like to have control over everything, but because nothing has very good defaults.[21:02:52] <brecht> well, it's not solely KDE, it's the whole UNIX thing that's slow :/[21:02:59] <brecht> and messy[21:03:01] <NeonLicht> does anybody know of a document which explains the BeOS versioning and relations among versions? I mean, all the info about Personal Edition, Max Edition, Profesional Edition, all the upgrades (5.0 to 5.0.1 to 5.03), etc, etc, etc, please?[21:03:10] <brecht> when it comes to desktop use anyhow[21:03:13] *** korli has quit IRC[21:03:16] *** _DaaT_ is now known as DaaT[21:03:17] <DeadYak> Pro = R5 Personal + MP3 encoder[21:03:20] <Pulko__Mandy> brecht: unix is quite simple but is not meant for a desktop system ...[21:03:21] <DeadYak> mainly[21:03:28] <brecht> Pulko__Mandy: indeed[21:03:34] <DeadYak> and PPC support[21:03:49] <Grackle> brecht: perhaps you should try a simpler distro. One like crux or slackware.[21:03:50] <DeadYak> BeOS Max is just R5 with more drivers and bebits stuff and such added.[21:04:07] <brecht> how legal is Max?[21:04:23] <DeadYak> no idea[21:04:27] <brecht> Grackle: I'm tired of Linux, sorry :)[21:04:31] <Grackle> s'ok[21:04:39] <Pulko__Mandy> brecht: try Solaris :)[21:04:42] <Grackle> hah[21:04:56] <brecht> I now tried to replace Windows with PC-BSD, but it's the same Linux problems all over again :)[21:04:57] <DeadYak> until Haiku's more mature, FreeBSD leviathan 7.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 7.0-CURRENT #1: Wed Apr 18 11:14:52 CDT 2007 root@:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64[21:04:58] <DeadYak> for me.[21:05:04] <NeonLicht> so, DeadYak, if I want to go for the more recent, official BeOS installation for hardware of its age (PII or AMD K6) what should I go for?[21:05:19] <DeadYak> NeonLicht: for hardware like that, 5.0.3 personal's fine[21:05:29] <DeadYak> Neonlicht: Max was mainly about adding patches to get it to work on P4s and things like that[21:05:31] <NeonLicht> ok, DeadYak[21:05:45] <NeonLicht> oh, I see, so I'm not interested on Max, then[21:05:51] <brecht> NeonLicht: what graphics card do you have in that machine?[21:05:57] *** rgb has joined #haiku[21:06:04] <NeonLicht> I really want to go for official, mainstream[21:06:05] <DeadYak> probably not, depending on what you have in that box you might need a driver or two from bebits though[21:06:09] <brecht> the drivers are nice though[21:06:20] *** oco has quit IRC[21:06:24] <brecht> I see Max V4 added some kind of USB support[21:06:27] <DeadYak> brecht: on hardware that old you're unlikely to need 90% of those drivers[21:06:29] <NeonLicht> brecht: I don't know, but I have plenty of graphic cards to change the one on the box if it does not work[21:06:37] <brecht> is that supposed to detect USB harddrives?[21:06:50] <brecht> NeonLicht: perfect :)[21:06:59] <DeadYak> brecht: that's probably Sziarhuk's USB mass storage driver[21:07:04] <DeadYak> and I probably totally mangled his name[21:07:10] <Grackle> hehe[21:07:19] <brecht> DeadYak: I'm not sure which *HCI this hardware is though[21:07:23] <NeonLicht> I've got lots of *BSD and Linux servers and workstations... I don't want to run BeOS on a PIV or something, just want to go for an appropriate hardware for it, really[21:09:43] *** SiCuTDeUx has quit IRC[21:09:44] <Grackle> Oh geez, the twitcher takes two hands to operate if you need to switch to a specifc window of one application :X[21:09:55] <DeadYak> aye[21:10:01] <Grackle> Not only that, but you have to do the "hold down control" thing.[21:10:21] <brecht> how large is the complete Haiku SVN code?[21:10:53] <brecht> Grackle: how can you cycle through windows from one app?.[21:11:01] <brecht> ah, arrow down[21:11:04] <brecht> intuitive :)[21:11:07] <DeadYak> arrow up and down[21:11:14] <brecht> but not very handy indeed:)[21:11:16] <DeadYak> hence the little arrow symbols in the twitcher :)[21:11:17] *** MrRagga has quit IRC[21:11:43] <brecht> using the mouse wheel instead of arrow keys would be nice[21:12:17] <Grackle> Well if you have your hand on the mouse, you might as well click on the window.[21:12:49] <Grackle> The whole point of the meta-tab switcher is that you don't have to move your hands much. Requiring two hands is silly.[21:13:10] <DeadYak> doesn't really require moving them that much if you have both of them on the keyboard anyhow[21:13:15] <Pulko__Mandy> add pedals for control and alt to your computer :)[21:13:17] <Grackle> I shouldn't be so condescending. Requiring two hands is more complex than necessary.[21:13:34] <DeadYak> well, yes and no[21:13:53] <brecht> why does the twitcher appear in the bottom right part of the screen[21:14:02] <Grackle> It shouldn't.[21:14:09] <DeadYak> it appears in center here[21:14:22] <brecht> odd[21:14:24] <Grackle> Does alt-tab do anything?[21:14:41] <DeadYak> Grackle: depends on if you have alt or ctrl set as your command key, that's a keyboard pref[21:14:50] <brecht> Grackle: for me?[21:14:56] <Grackle> no[21:15:15] <brecht> I have ctrl as hotkey[21:15:28] <brecht> twitcher responds to alt+tazb[21:15:30] <Grackle> DeadYak, the reason I ask is because alt-tab could be used to switch between all windows of a workspace, whereas ctrl-tab switches between all apps.[21:16:04] <Grackle> Or vice-versa, if you switch the ctrl/alt setting.[21:16:07] <brecht> ctrl-tab doesn't do anything at all for me[21:17:02] <DeadYak> R5+BONE presumably?[21:17:18] <NeonLicht> DeadYak: BONE? XDD[21:17:33] <DeadYak> NeonLicht: beta networking stack replacement back when Be was still around, was never finished[21:17:44] <brecht> yes, BONE[21:17:49] <DeadYak> Neonlicht: stands for BeOS Network Environment[21:17:49] <NeonLicht> no care for me, then, right? XD[21:17:59] <DeadYak> perhaps[21:20:19] <Master199> hi[21:20:24] <brecht> perhaps now someone is here that has experience with BeOS not wanting to boot from a slave HD[21:20:50] <DeadYak> no idea on that one to be honest, haven't ever tried that[21:21:22] <DeadYak> actually, do you mean bootman or BeOS's loader?[21:21:27] *** Pulko_Mandy has joined #haiku[21:21:31] <brecht> the loader[21:21:37] <DeadYak> with what error?[21:22:04] <brecht> "makebootable /boot" returns[21:22:29] <brecht> Cannot find the BIOS drive id for: /.../.../.../slave/0_2[21:22:33] <DeadYak> oh[21:22:44] *** Nies has quit IRC[21:22:49] <brecht> bootman failed with the same error[21:23:06] <brecht> it's probably nVidia's fault... it works on the PC at home[21:23:49] * brecht puts another pin into the nVidia doll[21:25:29] *** Jin has joined #Haiku[21:26:01] <Jin> roar[21:26:20] <Grackle> rawr[21:26:55] *** Nies has joined #haiku[21:28:20] *** Thom_Holwerda has joined #haiku[21:28:58] *** JamesB192 has joined #haiku[21:32:15] *** kr1stof_ has joined #haiku[21:34:47] *** Pulko__Mandy has quit IRC[21:38:09] *** ChrisHJW has joined #haiku[21:38:38] *** petterhj has quit IRC[21:39:42] *** jevin has joined #haiku[21:45:03] *** tombhadAC has joined #haiku[21:45:23] *** Jixt has quit IRC[21:47:10] *** Thom_Holwerda has quit IRC[21:47:22] *** kr1stof has quit IRC[21:49:15] *** Nies_ has joined #haiku[21:59:01] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[22:01:15] *** Nies has quit IRC[22:03:33] *** Pulko__Mandy has joined #haiku[22:05:23] *** Pulko_Mandy has quit IRC[22:09:27] *** Jixt has joined #haiku[22:10:53] *** jpd has joined #haiku[22:12:04] *** jpd has quit IRC[22:12:44] *** meianoite has joined #haiku[22:15:55] <meianoite> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!![22:16:00] <meianoite> another bug bites the dust ;D[22:16:11] <meianoite> DeadYak, please pet me :)[22:17:40] * DeadYak noogies meianoite[22:17:59] *** Jixt has quit IRC[22:18:26] <meianoite> eh[22:18:29] <meianoite> not quite what I had in mind[22:19:19] * meianoite gives DeadYak a wedgie[22:19:27] <DeadYak> that's DaaT's job[22:19:31] <meianoite> and I *hope* you *do* wear underwears[22:19:41] <DaaT> :)[22:20:00] <meianoite> DaaT, if you happen to need a helping hand... ;)[22:20:43] <stargater> helping hand , for what ? :-)[22:21:01] <meianoite> giving DeadYak a wedgie[22:21:12] <DaaT> no need thanks[22:21:14] <DaaT> :P[22:21:19] <meianoite> I could lift him so DaaT hangs him by his undies[22:21:25] <DaaT> :)[22:21:39] <meianoite> or the other way around: he lifts, I hang[22:22:51] *** stargater has quit IRC[22:22:55] *** Master199 has quit IRC[22:23:09] *** stargater has joined #haiku[22:23:11] *** stargater has quit IRC[22:23:16] *** stargater has joined #haiku[22:23:32] <meianoite> oh joy :)[22:23:41] <meianoite> this certainly beats everything.[22:23:44] <stargater> ups ALT+F4[22:24:26] <brecht> what is MemoChip?[22:24:57] <stargater> Memorry[22:28:13] *** rgb has quit IRC[22:28:55] <brecht> ?[22:29:09] <kokito> DaaT!![22:29:16] <DaaT> kokito!![22:32:19] *** Witukind has joined #haiku[22:32:30] *** Witukind has quit IRC[22:32:53] <stargater> hi kokito[22:33:10] <stargater> ahh bga hi[22:33:11] <kokito> hey stargater[22:33:41] <kokito> DaaT, have you seen Messi's latest super-goal? :P[22:34:03] <DaaT> nope, haven't[22:34:06][22:34:15] <kokito> barça vs. getafe[22:34:43] <kokito> bbl[22:34:53] <DaaT> cool[22:36:55] *** TTRanger has quit IRC[22:39:15] *** bga has quit IRC[22:42:30] *** ChrisHJW has quit IRC[22:49:54] *** arikato has quit IRC[22:53:45] *** arikato has joined #haiku[22:56:19] <brecht> how can I exit ProcessController?[22:56:43] *** Begasus_bbl has quit IRC[22:57:09] *** StylusEater_Work has left #haiku[22:59:23] <petterhj> tried right-click the replicant?[23:01:32] <brecht> the replicant is the tray icon, right?[23:01:44] <brecht> that menu doesn't include an exit option[23:02:00] <petterhj> if you rather like windows terminology :p[23:02:05] <petterhj> oh[23:02:28] <brecht> just getting to know the BeOS terminology :)[23:04:15] <meianoite> tried left-clicking?[23:04:24] <meianoite> (you'd be surprised)[23:04:41] <DeadYak> click it and uncheck "Live in Deskbar"[23:05:21] <petterhj> hehe, there it was. I even tried deleting the shelf without luck[23:05:30] <[Beta]> a replicant isnt just a tray icon, its something that can be embedded in something else. Like the desktop, or another app using a "shelf" (like the "system tray") :)[23:05:47] <DeadYak> it's kind of like a COM control in windows if you're familiar with that[23:05:51] <DeadYak> or a KPart[23:05:56] <DeadYak> though not quite as sophisticated[23:06:02] <DeadYak> (or complicated)[23:06:35] <brecht> DeadYak: aha! :)[23:07:02] <DeadYak> Deskbar's tray is just a special case of that basically[23:07:13] <hUMUNGUs> WOW! Messi RULES!![23:07:14] <DeadYak> you can see that behavior in the general case by dragging the little hand in the corner of Net+ to Tracker's desktop[23:07:17] <hUMUNGUs> Forza Barca!![23:07:26] <DeadYak> which embeds a Net+ replicant into the desktop[23:07:33] <DeadYak> the Clock supports doing that as well[23:07:34] <DeadYak> as does SoundPlay[23:07:46] <DeadYak> though in Soundplay's case you have to make sure to have liblayout.so in ~/config/lib[23:08:42] <brecht> mmm, Haiku's ProcessController won't install into the deskbar tray[23:09:57] <DeadYak> I don't know how complete replicants in Haiku are[23:10:36] <petterhj> Replicants work in Haiku[23:10:48] <DeadYak> ah[23:11:01] <brecht> it's a DeskBar problem[23:11:08] <petterhj> brecht: not working in R5 or in Haiku?[23:11:19] <brecht> the old deskbar can handle the new processcontroller replicant[23:11:25] <brecht> petterhj: R5+BONE[23:11:29] *** tombhadAC has quit IRC[23:11:30] <DeadYak> that sounds like the deskbar_security_code stuff[23:11:32] <brecht> trying out Haiku apps in R5[23:12:29] <petterhj> right. remember that Haiku-apps are not *necessarily* compatible with R5[23:12:39] <brecht> I know[23:13:22] <brecht> testing what I can get away with :)[23:13:29] <petterhj> :)[23:14:00] <kokito> hUMUNGUs, did you see Messi's supergoal?[23:14:36] *** wildur has quit IRC[23:15:54] <DaaT> kokito: youtube? :P[23:17:25] <kokito> DaaT, here > http://infobae.com/interior/home.html[23:17:31] <hUMUNGUs> kokito: yes, i saw the whole match. What a wonderkid. I love barca :-)[23:17:58] <hUMUNGUs> Ronaldinho - etoo - Messi.. WOW[23:18:19] <hUMUNGUs> And soon Dos Santos and Bojan[23:18:44] <kokito> yeah, it's a super team[23:18:56] <hUMUNGUs> yeah! no doubt[23:19:57] <DaaT> wow[23:19:58] <DaaT> that was amazing[23:20:05] <meianoite> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww[23:20:15] * meianoite continuously slaps his forehead[23:20:22] <meianoite> damn it, no wonder it's so fast[23:20:30] <DaaT> kokito: reminds me of another goal, many years ago ;)[23:20:33] <hUMUNGUs> hehe..[23:20:48] <meianoite> it's quick -- and incorrect -- hack, not how the real thing got implemented[23:21:07] <meianoite> well, I'm feeling better all over again[23:21:18] <kokito> DaaT: Mexico 1986, ARG vs. ENG :P[23:21:26] <DaaT> exactly :P[23:21:35] <kokito> quite similar, yes.[23:22:11] <DaaT> btw, do you see maradona as god as well? :P[23:22:11] <kokito> but one thing is to score against ENG in a world cup, and another to score against Getafe. :)[23:22:30] <DaaT> true[23:22:39] <kokito> not that it was not a spectacular goal, but gotta put things into real perspective.[23:22:48] <kokito> anyway, sorry guys for the OT chat :P[23:22:55] * kokito hides now[23:22:58] <DeadYak> DaaT: and you call me a nerd[23:23:18] <DaaT> well, you are[23:23:26] <DaaT> that's why I call you a nerd[23:23:35] * meianoite drags kokito from the dephts of whatever hole he tucked himself into, and continuously slaps kokito with an argentinian trout[23:24:04] <kokito> :P[23:25:21] * meianoite finished the slapfest, as kokito happened to not only enjoy it, but he actively LICKED the trout.[23:25:45] <DeadYak> mm, trout[23:25:52] <DaaT> he thought it was a frog[23:26:01] <meianoite> L O L[23:26:17] <meianoite> he's searching for his[23:26:28] <meianoite> PRINCE[23:26:33] <meianoite> (the artist?)[23:26:37] <meianoite> poor kokito[23:27:05] <DaaT> nah, just trying to get high[23:27:07] <kokito> hey, more respect for the elderly! :P[23:27:12] <DeadYak> hahahaha[23:27:28] <DaaT> what about the extremely elderly?[23:27:29] <meianoite> well, Prince only needs your extra time anyway[23:27:32] <meianoite> and your kiss ;)[23:28:36] <meianoite> *bridge*[23:28:42] <meianoite> *chorus*[23:28:59] <geist> i can see why nvidia doesn't want to release their specs for their chips[23:29:00] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[23:29:09] <geist> the amount of hackery you have to do to get stuff loaded is pretty big[23:29:38] <DeadYak> how so?[23:29:58] <meianoite> I suspected that. not to mention the HW bugs they hide with SW workarounds[23:30:11] <geist> specifically loading fragment shaders is a real pain[23:30:17] <DeadYak> ah[23:30:24] <DeadYak> I was about to ask if you meant GPUs or MB chipsets[23:30:25] <geist> since you have to actually patch themicrocode to change constants in that run[23:31:02] <DeadYak> ow.[23:32:33] <DeadYak> I also suspect they don't want to release specs so ATI won't pore over it trying to find patent violations[23:32:46] <DeadYak> though that goes both ways[23:32:47] <brecht> Pulse (old and Haiku ver) can be placed in the deskbar[23:32:54] <meianoite> DeadYak, http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=15359&comment_id=148555[23:33:03] <geist> the vertex shaders work in a more traditional way for constants[23:33:13] <geist> they have a pool of constant registers, globally accessible[23:33:13] <meianoite> but people gave other points of view that may be more correct than mine[23:33:23] <stargater> the best GPU whas vodoo5[23:33:28] *** petterhj has quit IRC[23:33:32] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[23:34:57] <DeadYak> geist: interesting[23:35:26] <meianoite> stargater the best GPU still is 3dlabs' Wildcat[23:37:17] <brecht> is there a gdb GUI for BeOS?[23:37:30] <DeadYak> bdb[23:37:49] * brecht reminds himself he should check bebits before asking[23:37:50] <brecht> thanks[23:39:52] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[23:39:52] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[23:39:54] <brecht> AGA is the best GPU[23:40:23] <meianoite> that intel thing?[23:40:27] <mmu_man> re[23:40:30] <mmu_man> AGA![23:40:33] <mmu_man> Amiga \o/[23:40:37] <mmu_man> meianoite ->[][23:40:38] <meianoite> ah :)[23:40:55] <meianoite> I'm not that old[23:41:08] * DaaT slaps meianoite[23:41:12] <meianoite> to have actually experienced the amiga as an OS[23:41:40] <meianoite> I did fiddle with an Amiga 500, however. I was probably around 7 or 8 yrs old at the time[23:41:45] <meianoite> Hollywood Poker Pro ;)[23:41:49] <meianoite> F16 Combat Pilot[23:41:56] <brecht> SuperFrog[23:42:12] <stargater> pitfall[23:42:13] <brecht> those were the days...[23:42:35] <stargater> gost n goblins = 10000% coolest game in the world[23:42:55] <meianoite> thank god for emulation. nowadays you can't even sneeze in the same room as those floppy disks[23:43:26] <DaaT> ahhh... cutting class to go play arcade... double dragon... golden axe[23:43:29] <DaaT> good times[23:43:40] <DaaT> load "" *hit return* and pray for 5mns[23:43:42] <Grackle> http://haiku-os.org/glass_elevator/rfc/against_directories Does anyone know who wrote this?[23:43:53] <meianoite> LOL, I cut classes to play Street Fighter 2, MK and Killer Instingt[23:44:02] <meianoite> *Instinct[23:44:20] <stargater> DaaT, why not add a link for the complety icons in haiku ?[23:44:39] <DaaT> ask frank :P[23:44:43] <DaaT> he wrote that piece[23:44:44] <stargater> DaaT, http://tm.kaldience.com/data/php/dir.php?dir=/dir/members/stargater/bilder/haiku_shots/HAIKU_rev20710[23:44:50] <DaaT> i still haven't seen appearance[23:44:54] <stargater> screen3.png[23:44:55] <Grackle> DaaT: Frank?[23:45:01] <DaaT> frankps[23:45:06] <Grackle> k, thanks.[23:45:20] <DaaT> ah, appearance, nice[23:45:27] <stargater> jop[23:45:30] <meianoite> Groucho :)[23:47:55] <DaaT> updated[23:48:25] <DaaT> thx stargater[23:49:07] <stargater> thx DaaT :-)[23:49:27] <DaaT> :)[23:49:39] *** petterhj has quit IRC[23:49:42] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[23:53:11] *** [Nies] has joined #haiku[23:53:31] *** ekdahl has left #haiku[23:53:49] <brecht> nigth all[23:53:52] <brecht> night even[23:53:57] <[Beta]> nn[23:53:58] *** brecht has quit IRC[23:54:29] <stargater> sleep[23:55:04] *** petterhj has quit IRC[23:58:03] <meianoite> geist, I see that you don't skip threads on LK, but you do on NewOS. and it seems that you skip threads quite often there, about 37% of the time. is that correct?[23:59:09] <meianoite> and that you just descend the array of queues until you find one containing threads[23:59:21] <DeadYak> LK = ?[23:59:35] <meianoite> an embedded ARM kernel of his[23:59:39] <DeadYak> oh