April 5, 2007 
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April 5, 2007 [00:02:30] <DeadYak> hiya[00:06:30] <palas> DeadYak I hope it is something related with that but, more specifically?[00:06:44] <palas> anyway i don't remember having modifyed it[00:11:28] *** eNGIMa has joined #haiku[00:15:36] <palas> bye[00:15:46] *** palas has quit IRC[00:18:25] *** BeDave has quit IRC[00:19:14] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[00:19:40] <Leszek> gn8 @ all ich geh pennen[00:19:43] *** Leszek has quit IRC[00:21:07] *** Hoern has quit IRC[00:22:57] *** Sil2100 has quit IRC[00:36:00] *** steven_h has joined #haiku[00:47:04] *** aldeck has joined #haiku[00:50:31] *** kr1stof has quit IRC[00:54:35] *** emitrax has quit IRC[00:55:52] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[00:56:08] *** miqlas has quit IRC[00:57:21] *** mats has quit IRC[01:00:03] *** TLF has quit IRC[01:02:55] *** guildencrantz has quit IRC[01:05:04] *** doppeljot has left #haiku[01:06:10] *** TimGroe2 has quit IRC[01:14:41] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[01:14:51] <umccullough> aldeck, see! your bug fixed ;)[01:15:34] <aldeck> yep, nice :) i'm currently building to test this :)[01:15:56] <umccullough> cool![01:16:25] <aldeck> but i'm pretty sure ther's gonnaa be other symbols missing to run python[01:16:34] <aldeck> let's see[01:16:53] <umccullough> well, you can maybe use the same method to add the "weak aliases" that korli used[01:17:01] <umccullough> assuming they're missing for the same reasons[01:17:04] *** eNGIMa has quit IRC[01:17:16] <aldeck> yep, it's planned, i'm gonna have a look at the changes he made[01:17:58] <[Beta]> umccullough, I took the hxr off because of lack of disk space :^)[01:18:05] <[Beta]> sorry for the late reply.[01:18:24] <aldeck> btw, i know you're pretty involved in seventeen or bust haiku team[01:18:43] <umccullough> [Beta], no problem :)[01:18:48] <aldeck> well, my nick is boola in sb[01:19:02] <umccullough> aldeck, cool... we do a lot more than SoB now![01:19:11] <umccullough> http://www.teamhaiku.com[01:19:22] <aldeck> oh[01:19:29] <umccullough> also, if you ever wanna talk DC stuff, we hang out in #teamhaiku[01:19:36] <aldeck> yep, sb particpation is slowing lately[01:20:47] <umccullough> aldeck, the project is stagnating, and there are so many others out there that we needed to participate in ;)[01:21:05] <umccullough> i'll put more resources on SoB again someday if the admins ever respond to my constant emails and forum posts[01:21:47] <umccullough> aldeck, ok, last comment here about DC projects: http://www.dc-vault.com/showteam.php?team=228[01:22:04] <aldeck> ok, what's the most intersesting project in your opininon[01:22:09] <umccullough> i try to keep that topic in #teamhaiku as to not spam the channel ;)[01:22:16] <aldeck> sure[01:22:22] <[Beta]> cute ? http://www.methylblue.com/filelight/[01:24:13] <umccullough> that link no worky[01:24:30] <aldeck> yep not worky at all[01:25:41] <NeonLicht> sloooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww[01:25:57] <[Beta]> weird, I was just on it![01:26:38] <NeonLicht> what was supposed to be?[01:26:50] <aldeck> [Beta], no more haiku screenies on flickr?[01:27:21] <[Beta]> it displays your partition as a .. circular diagram. hard to describe.[01:27:56] <[Beta]> http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/15/3535/400/filelight2.0.png[01:28:40] <aldeck> [beta], yep i know that kind of file viewers[01:28:53] <aldeck> {Beta], very practical in some cases[01:29:21] <[Beta]> Mandrake had one a while back that did it in recursive blocks, you could zoom in.[01:29:43] <[Beta]> aldeck, I just havent had the time, and Haiku hasnt changed much visually (with the exception of a few icons)[01:30:36] *** pikapika has quit IRC[01:31:21] *** fyysik has quit IRC[01:31:35] <[Beta]> anyhow: if you changed that diagram to work on attributes, and it grouped types/values, it might be quick to jump down into a group > collection > date range > file :D or somesuch[01:32:42] <aldeck> hehe, i'm not sure i see what you mean :)[01:34:17] <aldeck> what is great about such diagrams is that you see the space taken by the data, it could be done with rectangles too[01:35:42] <aldeck> and it flatens the hierarchy of folder, so that you can see everything as a whole, quite nice :)[01:39:10] *** aldeck has quit IRC[01:39:52] <TTRanger> Any scripting wizard still awake in here?[01:41:19] *** oco has quit IRC[01:41:33] *** snipe714 has quit IRC[01:42:37] <steven_h> oh darn... BeOSMAX just stopped responding over telnet[01:44:52] <steven_h> 3/10 parts of the im_kit converted into the tree though...[01:45:06] <steven_h> I'm expecting the bosses to say, that's not allowed.. and reject my work... but it's fun anyway[01:46:08] <CIA-17> bonefish * r20568 /haiku/trunk/docs/user/drivers/ (fs_interface.dox fs_modules.dox):[01:46:08] <CIA-17> More FS interface documentation. All FS hooks required for writing a basic[01:46:08] <CIA-17> read-only FS are documented, now. Be encouraged to review and add more. :-)[01:47:13] *** wildur has quit IRC[01:50:06] *** Ketsuban has quit IRC[01:50:30] <steven_h> [Beta], have you already got the IMKit running on Haiku?[01:51:03] <[Beta]> steven_h, last time I tried it, file copying was destroying the install process :)[01:51:09] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[01:51:31] <steven_h> am i allowed to push it into the Haiku tree?[01:51:46] <[Beta]> im_kit ?[01:51:48] <steven_h> yeh[01:51:59] *** Ketsuban has joined #haiku[01:52:02] <steven_h> fundamental![01:52:03] <[Beta]> i'd think the devs wouldn't be fond of it in the tree.[01:52:08] *** wonea has joined #haiku[01:52:57] <steven_h> i mean, with a complete overhaul?[01:54:53] <steven_h> or is it licensing? or that it's someone elses code? I can't even find contact details for it...[01:55:00] <[Beta]> steven_h, i'm really not one to ask :) most people would say it would be very useful in Haiku, but that would probably be added by a vendor, not the core project[01:55:58] <steven_h> I'll just drop an email to the mailing list then...[01:56:22] *** Ketsuban has quit IRC[01:56:35] *** Ketsuban has joined #haiku[01:57:03] *** wonea has quit IRC[01:58:59] *** scanty has joined #haiku[01:59:39] *** [Nies] has joined #haiku[02:00:13] *** guma has joined #haiku[02:07:36] *** Ketsuban has quit IRC[02:07:43] *** aldeck has joined #haiku[02:07:49] *** Nies_ has quit IRC[02:08:05] *** petterhj- has quit IRC[02:13:23] *** Mazon is now known as mazon[02:19:47] *** mmadia has joined #haiku[02:21:36] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20569 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/protocols/tcp/ (BufferQueue.cpp BufferQueue.h TCPEndpoint.cpp): keep PUSH'ed pointer in receiver side of TCP so we can wait for more data in recv()[02:24:54] <steven_h> all this network work by Hugo, is it for a new net_server? what server does Haiku currently use?[02:26:12] <_hugo> haiku has a new networking stack and new net_server[02:26:42] *** guma has quit IRC[02:32:18] <umccullough> steven_h, net_server is the userland incarnation of the netstack (which is in kernelland)[02:33:10] <_hugo> in fact net_server is mostly management while the network stack itself supplies sockets, creates/dispatches packets, etc :-)[02:33:32] <_hugo> net_server brings interfaces up, runs dhcp, and stuff like that[02:33:41] <steven_h> so... what's being worked on is what is currently in use in the test images?[02:33:54] <steven_h> ie. you're not creating one in parallel for it to be switched in later?[02:34:12] <steven_h> it just seems that all the work being done sounds fundamental, but the server works already?[02:34:18] <_hugo> it works already, yes[02:34:24] <_hugo> and is already used in the current images[02:34:52] <_hugo> however there are still improvements and fixes to be done[02:37:09] <_hugo> in a lot of areas :-)[02:38:27] <umccullough> steven_h, you can run networked apps without a net_server at all[02:38:59] <umccullough> in fact net_server is a fairly recent addition to the image - before that DHCP didn't work and you had to manually configure the interface from the commandline[02:39:08] <steven_h> but the point is to have the layer on top of the kernel to stop it from taking the whole os down with it?[02:39:15] <umccullough> no[02:39:31] <_hugo> not really steven_h. not at this moment anyway[02:39:58] <umccullough> net_server isn't really used by anything - it is sort of just a configuration/management piece -- the network prefs panel for instance would theoretically get involved with it[02:40:05] <steven_h> so, the kernel provides the raw interface, the server configures it.[02:40:23] <umccullough> basically :)[02:40:26] <steven_h> but applications go through the server if possible? and then the kernel direct if not?[02:40:36] <steven_h> oh,ok.[02:40:41] <_hugo> not only the raw interface, the whole network-specific functionality as well. the net_server only takes management functions[02:40:54] <_hugo> steven_h: applications talk with the kernel directly[02:40:55] <umccullough> apps use libnet, libsocket, libbind, etc.[02:40:58] <steven_h> the word 'server'.. seems rich :)[02:41:17] <umccullough> it USED to be the netstack in the pre-bone days[02:41:24] <umccullough> haiku's kernel houses the netstack though[02:41:25] <steven_h> so, app_server just makes things look pretty? it doesn't need to be running?[02:41:38] <steven_h> ie. organisation of windows, etc...[02:41:50] <umccullough> steven_h, no... see - net_server USED to mean what you think it means..[02:42:01] <umccullough> i.e. all the libs used to interact with it[02:42:31] <umccullough> but that wasn't even considered for Haiku - because it was too slow - so the stack was dumped into the kernel[02:42:48] <umccullough> now net_server is basically just there as a "daemon" you might say[02:43:01] <aldeck> the netserver manages the network stack wich do the actual net "work" :D[02:43:02] <umccullough> all apps still link to the libs - but the libs use the kernel[02:43:11] <steven_h> ok.[02:43:18] <steven_h> and it's the only one of that design.[02:43:34] <umccullough> hm?[02:43:43] <umccullough> i'm not sure we're on the same page[02:44:02] <umccullough> net_server is an artifact - could be called netconfigdaemon or something[02:45:09] <umccullough> i'm guessing Be decided to keep it around when they designed BONE just in case some apps were checking for it's existence, or attempting to interact with it for this or that[02:45:22] <umccullough> for example, net_server would be responsible for "restarting the network"[02:45:30] <steven_h> ok, if i'm writing a gui app, do I ask app_server to create a new window?[02:45:31] <umccullough> which basically just reconfigures all devices[02:45:47] <umccullough> no, you use the interface kit[02:46:07] <steven_h> to me, it seems that all other servers are to be interacted with... but net_server just talks to the kernel only[02:46:27] <umccullough> but you interact with them through apis and libraries[02:46:30] <steven_h> i think I need to sit and read the BeBook or something.[02:46:34] <umccullough> sure[02:47:00] <steven_h> I'd imagine the Haiku structure hasn't changed too much to make that text irrelevant?[02:47:07] <umccullough> sorry, you use the Application Kit for a window[02:47:36] <umccullough> should be the same[02:47:42] *** arikato has quit IRC[02:47:48] <umccullough> with a few discrepancies[02:47:52] <petterhj> steven_h: the first chapters of the "Developing for the Be Operating System" gives you pretty good understanding (it's free in PDF form)[02:48:30] <umccullough> i was right the first time - Interface Kit for a window - duh[02:49:59] <umccullough> the key is - the apps don't really know who's doing the work - they're just talking to libraries[02:51:55] <steven_h> but neither do i :P[02:52:36] <aldeck> the beos "server/kit" terminology can be confusing sometimes[02:54:12] <umccullough> basically Kits are the APIs... which communicate with the Servers to do the work[02:54:30] <umccullough> somethin' like that ;)[02:55:06] <umccullough> at least, whenever a shared resource is involved (i.e the screen)[02:55:13] <umccullough> you can sort of think of the kernel like a server[02:56:43] <aldeck> yep, but when you think in generic c++, you don't know what a kit is... see what i mean?[02:57:05] *** Odin-LAP has quit IRC[02:57:27] <aldeck> the wording is always different in beos[02:57:50] <_hugo> i don't see what c++ has to do with it :-)[02:58:01] <_hugo> a kit is a collection of interfaces[02:58:08] <_hugo> it is not necessarily a library[02:58:22] <umccullough> yeah, i suppose that was misleading[03:09:44] *** darkcmd has joined #haiku[03:09:50] <stargater> re[03:09:53] <darkcmd> is haiku POSIX complient?[03:10:05] <Yez_> darkcmd, mostly[03:10:30] <darkcmd> so would it be possible to build the interface for Haiku (GUI) for another POSIX system[03:11:18] <darkcmd> Haiku is pretty cool, I was never able to run BeOS before.[03:12:13] <sys2> :)[03:12:18] <stargater> beos whas cool :-) and ident haiku is cool too :-)[03:12:19] *** sys2 is now known as MrSun[03:12:38] <MrSun> beos is one of the nicest os:es ive ever runned )[03:12:39] <Yez_> hmm, interesting question. what do you mean by "interface"? OpenTracker? I think you couple easily port OpenTracker over to a POSIX complient system. I want to say it was ported to a Linux kernel at one point (BlueEyedOS ?)[03:12:57] <_hugo> it is not easily ported[03:13:22] <Yez_> oh, my bad. any particular reason why _hugo?[03:13:23] <_hugo> both Tracker and most Haiku components rely on several interfaces which are not commonly available[03:13:24] <aldeck> he means a c++ interface :P[03:13:27] <_hugo> and are not posix[03:13:31] <_hugo> but haiku specific[03:13:47] <darkcmd> ah I see[03:14:03] <Yez_> okie dokie then, scratch what I said darkcmd. I would believe _hugo more on this[03:14:04] <_hugo> the fact that haiku is partially posix compliant does not mean that its core components use posix interfaces only[03:14:53] <darkcmd> _hugo, I see what I mean, the posix interfaces are there so a lot of open source software can be built easily on Haiku, because most of it is POSIX complient stuff.[03:14:59] <Yez_> I was kinda wondering that... does POSIX compliance have anything to do with the interface. I guess it has more to do with it than I thought. Thanks for the help _hugo[03:15:10] *** mmadia has quit IRC[03:15:15] <darkcmd> POSIX complient has to do with the code[03:15:16] <_hugo> darkcmd: not really. POSIX interfaces are used by both open and closed software.[03:15:37] <darkcmd> I know, but a lot of the open software is posix complient due to the amount of open unix based system[03:15:40] <darkcmd> I'd imagine[03:15:53] <Yez_> darkcmd. yes. I know that is true because we do have a lot of Linux ports on BeOS[03:16:16] <steven_h> ...oh nice... my email arrived 3 times to the list...[03:16:17] <darkcmd> but I really like Haiku :D[03:16:18] <_hugo> a lot of open software does use mostly posix/unix calls[03:16:36] <_hugo> but on the other hand it also uses a lot of specific interfaces which are not posix[03:16:50] <steven_h> ...4 times!...[03:17:07] <steven_h> ...5x...[03:17:08] <Yez_> but, there is also some stuff that will NOT port because of the lack of some POSIX compliance. MySQL is one such project.[03:17:31] <_hugo> Yez_: why wouldn't mysql work? what does it use that haiku doesn't provide?[03:17:48] <_hugo> BeOS R5 did not have mmap() and pthreads, but haiku does[03:18:08] <umccullough> mm... not sure if Haiku pthreads is complete[03:18:12] <Yez_> there was something that BeOS didn't provide at the time[03:18:19] <_hugo> umccullough: put pthreads on 'will' then :-)[03:18:22] <darkcmd> _hugo, are you a long time BeOS user?[03:18:23] <umccullough> broken select() possibly[03:18:23] <Yez_> right, those are them[03:18:41] <_hugo> darkcmd: i used BeOS back in 2000, so not really long time[03:18:46] <_hugo> used/developed to[03:18:59] <darkcmd> been running Haiku long?[03:19:04] <Yez_> _hugo that is much longer than most. Glad to see that you are still with us.[03:19:15] <umccullough> most people don't run haiku for more than a few minutes ;)[03:19:39] <Yez_> Hey, I had a build running on my KVM for about a month without crashing[03:19:53] <_hugo> well, actually im "back" after some years[03:19:54] <Yez_> I think I had a handful of apps running on it as well[03:20:14] <Yez_> _hugo so, you have some faith that Haiku will do well?[03:20:17] <darkcmd> umccullough, I'm running it, but I also have a wierd interest in running a bunch of different types of operating systems[03:20:19] <umccullough> Yez_, did you get an uptime screenshot?[03:21:01] <_hugo> Yez_: Haiku has some dedicated, experienced and capable people behind it, i don't see why it wouldn't do well[03:21:20] <Yez_> no, cause I forgot that I had to use a mouse that was not on the KVM so I thought I had lost mouse input and just shut it down manually... moments later I saw the mouse and remembered about it but it was too late.[03:21:30] <umccullough> i've run it for ~7 days in VMware before i finally got tired of it and shut it down...[03:21:38] <Yez_> hehe[03:21:57] <umccullough> Yez_, screenshots are done with prtscrn[03:22:05] <darkcmd> screenshots :D[03:22:10] <Yez_> _hugo well I hope more of the old devs take and interest in Haiku and come back.[03:22:14] <umccullough> oh, no AboutHaiku :P[03:22:24] <umccullough> can be launched from terminal ;)[03:22:50] <_hugo> Yez_: both old and new developers i hope. anyway, Haiku is still in heavy development[03:22:55] <Yez_> I konw but I just used the mouse as a quick test to see if it had locked up or not... not very bright of me.[03:23:02] <umccullough> heh[03:23:18] <Yez_> _hugo are you helping with any development or just lurking for now?[03:23:36] <umccullough> he fixed my DHCP issue :)[03:23:43] <_hugo> Yez_: i try to help here and there[03:23:44] <Yez_> SWEET!!![03:23:55] <Yez_> very nice, Thanks![03:24:06] *** M_199 has joined #haiku[03:24:11] <_hugo> no problem. bugs are to be fixed[03:24:13] <darkcmd> Yez_, are you running Haiku on actual hardware or in a virtual machine?[03:24:14] <stargater> my network dont run :([03:24:27] <Yez_> it was on actual hardware[03:24:28] <umccullough> stargater, what netcard?[03:25:08] <stargater> but i have a laptop with ipro2100 wifi card , sony vaip PCG-Z1XEP[03:25:12] <Yez_> but I needed a dev box for an AJAX class I am going through so I put Fedore Core 6 on it and run that for now.[03:25:25] <umccullough> stargater, oh...that one :P[03:25:30] <aldeck> wooot! python seems to work on haiku!![03:25:37] <umccullough> aldeck, cool![03:25:43] <umccullough> glad it was so simple![03:26:12] <aldeck> i still had to rebuild it without some option[03:26:17] <umccullough> ah[03:26:24] <umccullough> another symbol issue?[03:26:27] <umccullough> or a missing lib?[03:26:30] <_hugo> i think it would be really nice to have python in haiku's source tree with some BeAPI bindings[03:26:30] <aldeck> another missing symbol yep[03:26:35] <_hugo> but that's my opinion[03:26:56] <aldeck> that's my next test[03:26:57] <_hugo> if someone has the dedication to port its build system to use Haiku's build, it would be nice[03:26:58] <umccullough> i think it has BeAPI bindings, no?[03:27:02] <aldeck> bethon bindings[03:27:05] <umccullough> right[03:27:08] <umccullough> BeThon[03:27:19] <stargater> _hugo: BePython[03:27:23] <Yez_> that sounds like a plan to me _hugo. of course, I would like to see Ruby in there as well[03:27:38] <steven_h> ..and imkit and openssl[03:27:39] <stargater> ah sorry i mean Bethon[03:27:44] <umccullough> ugh[03:27:56] <_hugo> i'm not a particular fan of python but i think it would be nice to have it in the base considering that there are bindings[03:27:57] <stargater> imkit ? oh now :-)[03:28:10] <aldeck> yep me too[03:28:25] <steven_h> stargater, why does no one like it? :|[03:28:27] <umccullough> mm... doubt the admins would go for it..[03:28:28] <stargater> sure but later in haiku r1 :-)[03:28:38] <_hugo> umccullough: for python you mean?[03:28:43] <umccullough> _hugo, yeah...[03:28:49] <_hugo> umccullough: why do you say that?[03:29:06] <stargater> steven_h: ImKit is never finish, and im not sure it is a real "Kit"[03:29:35] <steven_h> i've been converting it into one.[03:29:41] <umccullough> _hugo, not sure..just seems like projects with their own community and repo don't necessarily "belong" in the haiku tree[03:29:48] <stargater> imkit = i think the servive bindinga can in netkit as addon[03:30:15] <_hugo> umccullough: gdb, fileutils, etc do. if you consider something to be part of an official distribution it does[03:30:37] <umccullough> yeah, but those aren't really being updated much...[03:30:39] <steven_h> imkit has been abandoned... needs a new home :D[03:31:09] <umccullough> and they're critical to the OS[03:31:10] *** MrSun has quit IRC[03:31:28] <_hugo> umccullough: as is normal with a distribution, you integrate software and maintain it until you integrate new versions. haiku won't be released like linux, with multiple external distributions. i'm sure the plan is to provide for a full distribution by the project itself[03:31:50] <_hugo> so it makes sense to include python (if the developers consider it of course) in the same way gcc, gdb, fileutils etc are included[03:31:57] <umccullough> but whether the code is in one build system and one repo is still left to be seen[03:32:02] <Yez_> actually, I think the plan is kind of opposite of that _hugo[03:32:32] <Yez_> I swear that I have seen a couple of times where M Phipps has said that they don't plan on having their own distro...[03:32:34] <umccullough> for example, GCC isn't built with jam[03:32:38] <Yez_> I could be wrong again[03:32:41] <_hugo> Yez_: why do you say that? maybe things changed in these past few years but that was the idea back in the beginning :-)[03:32:47] <stargater> _hugo: ident, i think python, perl, php mast later a in haiku tree[03:33:01] <_hugo> umccullough: well, gcc is not part of the distribution yet[03:33:24] <umccullough> i'm pretty certain nobody is going to rewrite the GCC build system ;)[03:33:41] *** schmedly3d has left #haiku[03:33:42] <umccullough> and it has already been mentioned on the mailing list that it would be a separately built piece[03:33:52] <_hugo> sure, but gcc is another beast[03:33:57] <umccullough> exactly[03:34:04] <umccullough> i guess i don't know how big something like python is...[03:34:13] <Yez_> _hugo again, I think the Haiku folks just wanted to do the core stuff and let others like Vasper and such go through the pains of creating a distro with certain apps and such[03:34:14] <umccullough> firefox would be another example...[03:34:33] <_hugo> umccullough: yeah, python is not in the same league as gcc or firefox[03:34:54] <umccullough> perl would arguably be useful - but it has a very complicated build system also[03:34:56] <_hugo> but it could be externally built, sure.[03:35:12] <_hugo> Yez_: well, like i said, things might have changed, i'm still catching up. :-)[03:35:32] <_hugo> Yez_: in 2002 there was a general idea that distributions were bad (which i agree)[03:35:35] <umccullough> i'm thinking stuff like that could be hosted by the Haiku project, but not be part of the base distro[03:35:59] <umccullough> yet, an automated process could be used to add the to the cd image or whatever[03:36:29] *** shackan__ has quit IRC[03:36:39] <umccullough> those are things i would expect to be optional when installing the OS[03:36:46] <_hugo> sure. but being part of not of the build system these would need to stay somewhere in the repository since they need haiku-specific changes[03:36:50] <stargater> i think , when haiku is r1 then is the best we split the source tree 1) haiku os 2) haiku SDK 3) unstable/experimentell haiku (r2)[03:37:05] <Yez_> hmm, interesting _hugo. I will check on my end. But, wouldn't more options (distros) to chose from help increase the community size?[03:37:33] <_hugo> Yez_: what increases the community size is a stable system to work with and develop to[03:37:38] <umccullough> Yez_, distros generate options and options <> good[03:37:43] <_hugo> more distributions do not help in that regard[03:37:50] *** jevin has quit IRC[03:37:53] <umccullough> they fragment the userbase[03:37:59] <umccullough> generate compatibility issues[03:38:00] <_hugo> how many distributions of macosx, or BeOS R5 did you have?[03:38:26] <Yez_> hmm... interesting[03:38:33] <stargater> NULL[03:38:34] <_hugo> on the other hand you have installation nightmares because a single released app needs to have binaries for N different systems[03:38:41] <_hugo> in Linux that is[03:38:52] <Yez_> true, I have had to fight with that[03:38:56] <_hugo> which is a good example of how distributions are bad[03:39:15] <umccullough> a distro on the other hand that is entirely based on a binary core would be interesting[03:39:24] <umccullough> then it's just about bundling apps[03:39:27] <JamesB192> usually they handle that by only shipping for ia32.[03:39:32] <Yez_> then why the MIT license, doesn't that invite distros? Why even have it open sourced then?[03:39:32] <umccullough> as opposed to swapping window managers[03:39:33] <_hugo> you just need a base system which is stable. people download applications by themselves[03:39:51] <umccullough> Yez_, it invites code reuse[03:39:56] <_hugo> Yez_: thats another issue. it is opensource under a very permissive license to invite all kinds of developers[03:40:11] <umccullough> Yez_, doesn't matter what OSS license you use, distros will appear ;)[03:40:19] <Yez_> hehe[03:40:34] <Yez_> this will be interesting to see how it all plays out then.[03:40:37] <umccullough> Haiku just needs to have an answer for that problem though[03:40:53] <umccullough> maybe they use trademark to prevent "Haiku" distros[03:40:58] <Yez_> doesn't sound like an easy answer[03:41:03] *** Master199 has quit IRC[03:41:27] <Yez_> ? "DudeOS, a Haiku based OS " ?[03:41:34] *** nilsHaus has joined #haiku[03:41:45] <umccullough> not meaning to drag this back up - but there was never an official response on the mailing list to the Pingwinek distro thing...which i find somewhat odd[03:42:01] <umccullough> and frustrating[03:42:08] <Yez_> oh crap... need to go to the game![03:42:18] <Yez_> talk at ya folks later!!![03:42:27] <Yez_> great to have ya back _hugo[03:42:30] <_hugo> thanks[03:42:31] <stargater> cu[03:43:09] <_hugo> umccullough: the developers probably aren't very confortable with people creating distributions of code they don't perceive as stable or finished[03:43:53] <_hugo> there are no "CD images" from Haiku proper for a reason[03:44:03] <[Katisu]> seem even more uncomfortable to make a statement about it[03:44:19] <aldeck> screenie? http://haikubeat.free.fr/files/python/python_haiku.png[03:44:26] <umccullough> yeah, especially after Ingo announced that they were discussing it[03:44:36] <_hugo> well, you cant really stop people from doing a distribution, no point telling you not to[03:44:37] <umccullough> aldeck, cool![03:44:46] <umccullough> aldeck, want me to post that on my flickr site?[03:44:50] <umccullough> or rather...can i?[03:44:51] <aldeck> sure[03:44:59] <[Katisu]> it's alright as long as they aren't using the haiku name[03:45:02] <umccullough> still have it running?[03:45:11] <umccullough> aldeck, throw up an AboutHaiku window ;)[03:45:22] <aldeck> yep, but the interpreter doesnt play well with terminal[03:45:39] <aldeck> umccoulough, right[03:45:40] <_hugo> terminal handling still has some issues which need to be fixed[03:45:41] <umccullough> aldeck, seriously - is that what version of GCC you compiled it with?[03:45:53] <_hugo> aldeck: and good job btw[03:45:58] <aldeck> i compiled it on R5[03:46:08] <umccullough> didn't you upgrade the compiler?[03:46:25] <aldeck> no just python[03:46:28] <umccullough> heh[03:46:45] <stargater> aldeck: nice and good job[03:46:48] <aldeck> commented a line in config.h[03:46:57] <aldeck> :P[03:47:18] <stargater> :-)[03:47:23] <umccullough> should get the new 2.95.3 compiler from http://bebits.com/app/4011[03:47:26] <aldeck> i'm doing another scrernnie[03:47:32] <umccullough> great :)[03:48:22] <aldeck> i meant beosmax , i think it has 2.95.3[03:48:27] <umccullough> they all have 2.95.3[03:48:37] <umccullough> it's just that it's been updated quite a bit since then[03:48:38] <aldeck> ah kay[03:48:45] <umccullough> the date on yours is from 2001[03:49:04] <umccullough> the newest is from 2006[03:49:14] <aldeck> i'll have a look, thks[03:49:48] <steven_h> is the little black circle on the net_server replicant going to flash?[03:49:55] <umccullough> you'd have to get the 2006 build to compile haiku anyway[03:49:56] <steven_h> ...so tiny.[03:50:18] <aldeck> i build haiku on linux :)[03:50:33] <umccullough> ;)[03:50:45] <umccullough> well, the gcc on that bebits page is basically the one from haiku repo[03:50:55] <umccullough> (note, don't bother with the 3.x version)[03:51:01] <_hugo> the net_server replicant will change soon[03:51:25] <aldeck> the new replicant is soo coool :))[03:51:47] <_hugo> :-)[03:51:58] <aldeck> working great here under vmware[03:52:07] <aldeck> ipro1000[03:52:44] *** silverpower_ has joined #haiku[03:52:55] <stargater> _hugo: is ipro2000/ ore 2100 work in haiku ?[03:53:08] <_hugo> im not aware of any ipro2000[03:53:17] <tombhadAC> i dont get network for vmware working here :([03:53:23] <_hugo> tombhadAC: which vmware?[03:53:39] <tombhadAC> vmware workstation[03:53:44] <tombhadAC> 5.5.3[03:53:47] <aldeck> i use player[03:53:53] <umccullough> tombhadAC, edit your .vmx file to change it to e1000...[03:53:56] <_hugo> tombhadAC: if you type in "ifconfig" it doesnt show any output?[03:54:01] <_hugo> in the terminal that is[03:54:02] <aldeck> under linux and winxp[03:54:08] <umccullough> that stupid vlance driver suks[03:54:25] <tombhadAC> but its an problem with my distro (linux ..) and not with haiku ;)[03:54:34] *** darkcmd has left #haiku[03:54:43] <umccullough> tombhadAC, so VMWare doesn't support networking on your linux?[03:54:44] <umccullough> bummer[03:54:53] <_hugo> bbl[03:55:20] *** silverpower has quit IRC[03:55:25] *** silverpower_ is now known as silverpower[03:55:28] <umccullough> hi silverpower[03:55:39] <silverpower> hiya.[03:55:52] <tombhadAC> when i configure it with network support the vmware daemon does not start[03:55:57] <silverpower> Finally beat the x86 into something resembling submission. *bleh*.[03:56:12] <umccullough> ?[03:56:32] <aldeck> i have this in my vmx file:[03:56:34] <aldeck> ethernet0.present = "TRUE"[03:56:34] <aldeck> ethernet0.virtualDev = "e1000"[03:56:34] <aldeck> ethernet0.connectionType = "nat"[03:56:34] <aldeck> ethernet0.addressType = "generated"[03:56:34] <aldeck> ethernet0.generatedAddressOffset = "0"[03:56:58] <umccullough> i run mine bridged, but otherwise that's basically what i've got[03:57:22] <aldeck> yep i dont know the difference[03:57:47] <umccullough> nat means that VMWare is providing a private LAN to your guest OS including DHCP and DNS, etc.[03:58:00] <umccullough> basically a built-in firewall and private IPs[03:58:05] <aldeck> k[03:58:23] <umccullough> bridged means the guestos is live on the same network as the host - gets an IP from same DHCP server, etc.[03:58:48] *** absabs has joined #haiku[03:58:55] <tombhadAC> http://s6.bilder-hosting.de/img/PQOWV.png ;)[03:59:22] <umccullough> tombhadAC, sounds like it didn't install the driver or something[03:59:28] <umccullough> or whatever it is[03:59:43] <umccullough> on my windows box, i have these stupid processes running in the background that provide those virtual interfaces[03:59:50] <tombhadAC> yes if i install it the vmware daemon does not start[03:59:52] <silverpower> umccullough, well, I need something vaguely resembling a working R5 machine to do much with Haiku...[04:00:07] <umccullough> silverpower, ah..i see...or linux right?[04:00:26] <umccullough> time to go home i think[04:00:50] <umccullough> aldeck, ever get that other screenie?[04:01:20] <silverpower> I've already got a PPC machine running Linux here, so that's covered, but IIRC some of the image build tools are endian-filthy.[04:01:37] <silverpower> so I probably need an x86 dev environment.[04:02:00] <umccullough> oh that sucks[04:02:05] <umccullough> although, you could start with them ;)[04:02:44] <stargater> reboot[04:02:50] *** stargater has quit IRC[04:02:53] <umccullough> leaving...later![04:03:49] *** umccullough has quit IRC[04:04:25] *** guma has joined #haiku[04:05:10] *** Stargater has joined #haiku[04:05:12] <Stargater> re[04:05:18] <tombhadAC> wb Stargater[04:05:35] <Stargater> yeaa i make a new build[04:06:42] <aldeck> umccullough, http://haikubeat.free.fr/files/python/python_haiku.png[04:06:53] <aldeck> damn he just left ![04:09:06] <Stargater> aldeck can i put the shots on www.beuser.de for a smal news ?[04:09:42] <aldeck> sure, but i'd like to test a it a little more[04:10:04] *** guma has quit IRC[04:10:17] <aldeck> it doesnt work well yet[04:10:35] <Stargater> and only the interpreter is running in time and you work on full python for beos/haiku ?[04:11:04] <aldeck> i'm just toying :)[04:11:11] <Stargater> ah ok[04:11:40] <Stargater> will you later put your work on bebits ?[04:11:40] <aldeck> but if it works well, i may go further[04:11:53] <Stargater> ok[04:11:54] <aldeck> why not[04:11:59] <Stargater> ok thx[04:15:14] *** MrSunshine has joined #haiku[04:28:04] *** ravtux has joined #haiku[04:33:01] <ravtux> anybody home?[04:33:39] <tombhadAC> ;)[04:35:05] <ravtux> tombhadAC: hao are you?[04:35:14] <ravtux> how is Hiaku coming along?[04:37:08] <tombhadAC> http://cia.vc/stats/project/OpenBeOS ;) i think there is a good progress[04:38:17] *** nilsHaus has quit IRC[04:42:08] <Stargater> reboot in haiku 15 min back[04:42:18] *** Stargater has quit IRC[04:45:19] <aldeck> does anyone know how i could use the cross tools to build apps (separately from the os build i mean) ?[04:47:01] *** JamesB192 has quit IRC[04:49:53] <steven_h> add a rule in the base Jamfile[04:49:58] <steven_h> to just build what you want[04:50:09] <steven_h> check it out to see examples... OpenGLKit, etc...[04:50:30] <steven_h> but that would mean throwing the source in the tree[04:50:44] <ravtux> tombhadAC: still here?[04:51:12] <aldeck> steven_h, thks, i'll have a look[04:52:22] <tombhadAC> yes im still here[04:54:02] *** Stargater has joined #haiku[04:54:03] <Stargater> re[04:54:27] <Stargater> bbl[04:55:02] *** doppeljot has joined #haiku[04:55:59] *** doppeljot has left #haiku[05:00:22] <ravtux> tombhadAC: I have spotlighted Haiku at http://cafelinux.org/forum/[05:00:31] <ravtux> take a look[05:01:17] <ravtux> I need someone fimilar with Haiku to post announcements for Haiku[05:01:33] <ravtux> congratulations on the gsoc 2007![05:01:38] <ravtux> :)[05:04:08] <tombhadAC> um it seems that no one there knows haiku really[05:06:56] <ravtux> tombhadAC: admittedly no, not even I,.....but we are very curious[05:07:16] <ravtux> I personally am rooting for Haiku[05:07:46] <ravtux> keep in mind just as I have developed Oz Linux,[05:07:57] <ravtux> there are a lot of devs as members[05:08:02] <ravtux> have to go[05:09:14] <tombhadAC> cu ravtux[05:19:30] *** BryanV has joined #haiku[05:24:26] *** umccullough has joined #haiku[05:25:51] <umccullough> aldeck, fortunately echelog provided me with the link ;)[05:26:03] <aldeck> hehe[05:26:24] <umccullough> i'll add it to my flickr page later...bbib[05:26:42] <aldeck> ok[05:47:54] <umccullough> http://www.flickr.com/photos/umccullough/446808235/[05:48:21] *** aldeck has quit IRC[05:48:55] <umccullough> and then he leaves :([05:52:26] <Yez_> don't you hate when that happens?[06:05:12] <kokito> ravtux: post Haiku announcements where?[06:07:02] <ravtux> in Haiku[06:07:07] <ravtux> forum[06:07:16] <ravtux> at The CafeLinux Forum[06:07:37] <ravtux> http://cafelinux.org/forum/[06:08:00] <Yez_> I am with kokito, I don't see anything about Haiku anywhere[06:08:17] <ravtux> hold on guys let me rearrange a bit[06:08:30] <Yez_> k[06:08:32] <kokito> ravtux: Haiku is not Linux based.[06:09:10] <kokito> bbl[06:09:16] <ravtux> http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php[06:09:31] <ravtux> kokito: I am aware of that[06:09:40] <ravtux> take a look now[06:10:04] <ravtux> It is now spotlighted after Zenwalk[06:11:59] <Yez_> ah, much better[06:12:30] <ravtux> Yez_: now if I can just Haiku people add life to it[06:13:28] <ravtux> keep in mind cafelinux is attracting some devs; Foresight dev, Wolvix dev, 2 x-Sabayon devs, myself: Oz dev[06:13:51] <ravtux> so it is a good place to get people interested in Haiku[06:14:49] <Yez_> sounds more like a good place to get Linux devs interested in Haiku[06:14:54] <Yez_> and that is not a bad thing[06:15:00] <Yez_> the more the merrier[06:15:37] <ravtux> yes[06:15:46] <ravtux> I changed the subtitle[06:15:51] <ravtux> Not linux but The transcendental OS[06:16:15] <ravtux> kokito: thanks for joining[06:16:56] * DeadYak pets kokito[06:17:13] <ravtux> again I would like to get Haiku users and Devs posting regular announcements and howto for us Linux type people interested in Haiku[06:19:09] <Yez_> hmmm ... I think most of the Haiku community is going to stick with the good ole BeOS forums like BeGroovy's and now haiku-os.org but you never know. Drop BeOS News and Haiku Nes and BeGroovy and ICO an email and let them know that you have setup the new forum[06:19:45] <Yez_> you may start getting some regulars[06:20:03] <ravtux> cool[06:20:43] <ravtux> I would really like to create an environment where we have cross platform devs helping each other out[06:21:07] <ravtux> I will always support and root for haiku[06:21:19] <Yez_> hmm, if you can prevent the occasional OS Holy War, that would be cool[06:21:43] <ravtux> there will be no holy wars at cafelinux[06:21:55] <ravtux> ;)[06:22:20] <Yez_> heh, ok[06:23:00] <Yez_> \help[06:23:13] <ravtux> Yez_ I hope to see you and more Haiku people around[06:23:40] <Yez_> I have been here a while and I don't think I am going away anytime soon[06:23:48] <ravtux> Yez_: let me know if you or anybody with Haiku needs anything[06:24:15] <ravtux> Yez_: I meant at The CafeLinux Forum[06:24:26] <Yez_> ok[06:24:29] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20570 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/stack/link.cpp: added select() support to packet capturing[06:24:37] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20571 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/protocols/tcp/TCPEndpoint.cpp:[06:24:37] <CIA-17> fixed a critical issue with TCP's FIN handling: if FIN was set on a packet with[06:24:37] <CIA-17> data, fReceiveNext would be rewritten with the queue's LastSeuence which would[06:24:37] <CIA-17> be effectively the required sequence - 1. Increment instead fReceiveNext with[06:24:38] <CIA-17> the buffer's size.[06:24:41] <DeadYak> damn, hugo's been busy[06:24:53] <_hugo> just spent the last hour trying to find a damn TCP bug[06:25:00] <_hugo> uff :-)[06:25:03] <DeadYak> _hugo = hugosantos?[06:25:05] <Yez_> hehehehe[06:25:08] <_hugo> DeadYak: yep[06:25:13] <DeadYak> _hugo: aka linn?[06:25:20] <_hugo> DeadYak: too many years ago, yeah :-)[06:25:27] <DeadYak> _hugo: s[06:25:28] <DeadYak> er[06:25:30] <DeadYak> I wondered :)[06:25:35] <_hugo> eheh[06:25:36] * DeadYak has flashbacks to #vision[06:25:39] <_hugo> yes[06:25:49] <_hugo> i'm old now[06:25:51] * _hugo sighs[06:25:54] <DeadYak> you and me both[06:25:56] <Yez_> linn, on BeShare back in the day? that sounds vageuly familiar[06:26:00] <_hugo> :-)[06:26:04] <_hugo> Yez_: yes, beshare too[06:26:05] <DeadYak> he did Dockbert way back when[06:26:05] <ravtux> any projection on a downloadable ISO?[06:26:14] <Yez_> WOW![06:26:35] <Yez_> nope, no projection ravtux...[06:27:08] <ravtux> Yez_: thanks[06:28:57] <_hugo> this last bug was really troublesome, first thought it was some silly duplication inside the stack, then i thought it was the driver, then went to TCP[06:29:00] <_hugo> happy it's fixed now[06:29:20] <umccullough> ravtux, Haiku can't boot from ISO :([06:29:25] <Yez_> dare we ask what it was?[06:29:46] <steven_h> ... "/boot/home/Haiku/src/libs/ssl/Jamfile: No such file or directory"[06:29:49] <steven_h> but it does![06:29:50] <_hugo> well, eheh, it is really TCP specific. an internal value was being overwritten in a very special case[06:30:25] <Yez_> how special? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? or worse?[06:30:28] * umccullough remembers a linn from beshare[06:30:45] <umccullough> but back then i mosted used the nick: "NiteMair"[06:30:51] <_hugo> Yez_: well, not that special :-)[06:31:04] <Yez_> I remember NiteMair[06:31:06] <Yez_> ok[06:31:07] <umccullough> :D[06:31:07] <_hugo> man, beshare. brings back memories[06:31:08] <_hugo> :-)[06:31:23] <umccullough> people used to say: 'night Nite to me ;)[06:31:41] <Yez_> it is still out there. If I have my BeOS machine in one piece, I would be lurking there now[06:32:00] <Yez_> s/have/had[06:32:21] <DeadYak> I wonder how hard it would be to get ZFS running on Haiku...[06:33:23] <_hugo> if ZFS was independent enough, maybe it would be doable[06:33:39] <DeadYak> well, it's mostly working on FreeBSD now..[06:34:05] <umccullough> you've got the userlandfs to work on it in ;)[06:34:24] <_hugo> maybe Ingo gets it to work, would be nice[06:34:45] <ravtux> umccullough: will Haiku eventually boot from ISO?[06:34:54] <umccullough> ravtux, probably not - maybe from UDF[06:35:05] <ravtux> hmm[06:35:08] <umccullough> ravtux, right now you have to burn a 2-track disc with a floppy image and BFS image[06:35:41] <ravtux> BFS image?[06:35:44] <umccullough> ISO9660 just ain't gonna cut it ;)[06:35:57] <umccullough> Haiku runs on BFS - proprietary BeOS filesystem[06:36:23] <umccullough> ravtux, search the haiku forums for livecd[06:36:38] <ravtux> there is a live CD available?[06:36:43] <umccullough> you have to make one[06:36:54] <umccullough> it's not really as simple as downloading a single file though[06:37:13] <umccullough> and honestly, at this point, you'll probalby have to be running BeOS R5 to even create one yourself[06:37:42] <umccullough> using a HaikuLiveCD shell script that creates it[06:37:42] <ravtux> ok[06:37:42] <Yez_> I am about 50/50 on my success rate for building BeOS bootable CDs[06:38:16] <umccullough> Yez_, the trick is having to recreate the floppy image whenever something changes in the kernel/bootloader :P[06:38:18] <ravtux> I look forward to the day I can download a Haiku torrent and install Haiku on my computer[06:38:43] <Yez_> ah[06:38:59] <umccullough> honestly, someone could create a livecd 'build factory' - but it would still require a 2-track burn using a cue file[06:39:16] <ravtux> how about a DVD?[06:39:18] <DeadYak> wasn't there a build factory at one point?[06:39:28] <umccullough> DeadYak, yeah, but it doesn't create livecds ;)[06:39:37] <ravtux> have you guys tried rPath?[06:39:40] <umccullough> ravtux, doesn't matter what media, it's the filesystem that matters[06:39:49] <ravtux> right[06:39:58] <umccullough> rpath sounds familiar[06:40:08] <DeadYak> I forget how the Be ISO back in the day worked[06:40:13] <umccullough> dual-track[06:40:13] <DeadYak> was UDF based though maybe[06:40:18] <ravtux> I built a Linux OS on based on rPath[06:40:24] <ravtux> Oz Linux[06:40:27] <umccullough> i have one...i can look[06:40:28] <DeadYak> umccullough: my R5 Pro CD doesn't look multitrack[06:40:45] <umccullough> must be - how else would it support PPC and x86?[06:40:54] <DeadYak> well, I mean multitrack for a single arch[06:40:58] <umccullough> ;)[06:41:02] <DeadYak> I don't see separate floppy + BFS tracks[06:41:07] <umccullough> i have a pro 5.0.3 cd now[06:41:11] <ravtux> my question is Gobolinux rewrote the linux filesystem[06:41:22] <DeadYak> the fs layout yeah[06:41:34] <umccullough> ravtux, didn't they just create a bunch of symlinks or something?[06:41:44] <DeadYak> basically yeah[06:42:03] <umccullough> and hide the posix ones?[06:42:14] <ravtux> hmm[06:42:33] *** Sloar has joined #haiku[06:42:44] <umccullough> maybe they did like beos and created posix-complian symlinks[06:42:49] <umccullough> i never tried gobo[06:43:14] <DeadYak> I thought gobo was the one that created a subdir for every installed version of a package and just symlinked the current one[06:43:22] <DeadYak> I might be confusing it with another distro[06:43:23] <umccullough> :P[06:43:33] <DeadYak> but I'm fairly sure they had some funky way to try to deal with package dep hell[06:43:36] <umccullough> i think gobo is known for its simplicity[06:43:37] <ravtux> http://www.gobolinux.org/index.php?lang=en_US[06:43:55] <ravtux> I have never got Gobo to work[06:44:12] <umccullough> looks like DeadYak is right[06:44:32] <umccullough> "Through a mapping of traditional paths into their GoboLinux counterparts, we transparently retain compatibility with the Unix legacy."[06:44:43] <umccullough> yep, symlinks for the posix dirs[06:44:48] <DeadYak> Gobo's using Pacman right?[06:44:55] <umccullough> sounds right[06:45:40] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[06:46:23] <umccullough> hell, i dunno - i don't follow linux distros much ;)[06:46:41] <DeadYak> I don't either really, I just use Gentoo at work[06:47:13] <DeadYak> anyways, need sleep, I'll see you guys tomorrwo[06:47:14] <DeadYak> tomorrow*[06:47:26] <Yez_> nite[06:47:26] <_hugo> see you DeadYak[06:48:13] <umccullough> 'night[06:48:40] <umccullough> i need to redo the dp83815 driver for the haiku repo :([06:48:47] <umccullough> it's way screwed up now[06:49:16] *** Teknomancer has joined #haiku[06:49:32] <Yez_> Namaste[06:56:34] *** rcjsuen has quit IRC[06:56:52] <Teknomancer> namaste Yez_[07:06:01] *** Luposian has joined #haiku[07:07:02] <Luposian> Anyone here know exactly what hardware Haiku works on/with? I'd like to have a detailed list, if possible.[07:08:22] * geist prepares a document[07:11:04] <steven_h> is anyone here knowledgeable with jam?[07:11:19] <geist> i'm pretty much a jam hater myself[07:11:22] <steven_h> I have the Jamfile just sitting there in libs/ssl/ but... it keeps telling me that it doesn't exist.[07:14:38] <geist> dunno[07:14:51] <geist> there are folks that undersatnd it pretty well, but this is generally a bad time for the channel[07:15:00] <geist> since a lot of folks here are in europe, and this is the middle of the night[07:15:43] <steven_h> and ... i should be working :P[07:16:07] *** Stargater has quit IRC[07:18:56] <steven_h> oh nice... trailing spaces... needs at least 'one' carriage return.[07:21:22] <umccullough> steven_h, you probably need to tell the upper-level jam files to look there[07:21:25] *** JonathanThompson has joined #Haiku[07:21:37] <steven_h> nah, that was all in place...[07:21:37] *** scanty has quit IRC[07:21:44] <steven_h> the issue is that i'm using cat to create the files[07:21:46] <umccullough> then yes - trailing space :)[07:21:53] <JonathanThompson> Hi guys.[07:21:55] <steven_h> and i wasn't hitting enter enough at the end of them :)[07:21:56] <umccullough> jam is funny - you should read the guide[07:21:59] <umccullough> JonathanThompson, hi![07:22:05] <JonathanThompson> Seems the proverbial sh!t has hit the fan with Zeta/Bernd.[07:22:15] <umccullough> JonathanThompson, you know it![07:22:25] <umccullough> ormandj has been all over that like flies on shit ;)[07:22:38] <JonathanThompson> As I figured he would :P[07:22:44] <umccullough> Luposian, there used to be a hardware list on the wiki before it got... taken down :([07:23:21] <geist> umccullough: oh, what does that mean?[07:23:27] <JonathanThompson> I find myself thinking that all those employed by yT/Bernd/MagnusSoft have just greatly increased their troubles in future employment searches.[07:23:38] *** ormandj has joined #haiku[07:23:42] <ormandj> hidehoo :)[07:23:54] <geist> yo yo[07:23:54] * JonathanThompson notes a cloud of sulphuric smoke appearing in a POOF![07:24:05] <ormandj> how goes it geist?[07:24:43] <JonathanThompson> So, are you in a state of permagloat, ormandj? :P[07:24:48] <geist> it goes sort of okay[07:24:51] <umccullough> ormandj :)[07:24:54] <geist> work has been pretty lame lately[07:25:09] <umccullough> geist, i didn't catch what you meant earlier[07:25:10] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: not at all, i'm just enjoying playing with the kiddos ;)[07:25:17] * JonathanThompson hopes geist is referring to mp3 encoding :P[07:25:20] <geist> umccullough: what do you mean by 'taken down'[07:25:38] <umccullough> geist, the haiku admins decided the wiki was "redundant" and removed it from the site[07:25:48] <JonathanThompson> WHAT???[07:25:49] <umccullough> and now all that info from the wiki is gone[07:25:56] <umccullough> JonathanThompson, that was months ago...[07:25:57] <geist> hmm, that's kind of lame[07:26:11] <umccullough> geist, yeah..several expressed their dissatisfaction[07:26:16] <JonathanThompson> Perhaps I knew too much and didn't notice...[07:26:34] <ormandj> wow.[07:26:47] <JonathanThompson> Perhaps someone can be persuaded to give over the wiki data to an interested party.[07:26:48] <ormandj> they didn't at least keep a copy for any interested party who might want to run one on their own?[07:26:52] <umccullough> i think there was some concern about the "quality" of the content on the wiki[07:26:53] <ormandj> or at least preserve the content?[07:27:00] <umccullough> ormandj, i had to use google cache to get info off it[07:27:06] <ormandj> that sucks[07:27:17] <umccullough> waldemar might still have it tucked away somewhere[07:27:24] <umccullough> but they moved hosts also - so who knows[07:27:35] <JonathanThompson> I suspect largely what happened is he got sick of having to police spammers.[07:27:48] <geist> well, thats a decent point[07:27:50] <umccullough> JonathanThompson, um... *I* was the one policing spammers ;)[07:28:03] * JonathanThompson hands umccullough a can of spam[07:28:08] <umccullough> i did most of the reverts in my spare time ;)[07:28:24] <umccullough> i was also the main one policing the spammers on the phpbb forums...[07:28:27] <umccullough> but oh well[07:28:27] <Luposian> I think there is virtue in having a "Haiku-only" hardware compatibility list, so we know what does (or doesn't yet) work. And the most appropriate place is here and Haiku headquarters.[07:28:28] <JonathanThompson> Hope you don't have high blood pressure or an inner ear issue or kidney stone problems, umccullough :P[07:28:37] <Teknomancer> [22:23] <JonathanThompson> I find myself thinking that all those employed by yT/Bernd/MagnusSoft have just greatly increased their troubles in future employment searches. <-- i don't think so ;)[07:28:50] <umccullough> Luposian, the wiki was hosted on the haiku-os.org site[07:28:59] <JonathanThompson> Whom are you working for right now, Teknomancer?[07:29:00] <umccullough> it was haiku-specific[07:29:16] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson atm nobody but that wouldn't be an issue for me[07:29:31] <Teknomancer> nor has it been for some of the former yT employees[07:29:34] <Luposian> I remember seeing it, I think. Shame it's gone... wonder how much more works now, than did back then.[07:29:47] *** ravtux has left #haiku[07:29:50] <umccullough> Luposian, hardware wise? not much[07:30:05] <umccullough> maybe some SATA support by marcus[07:30:10] *** kr1stof has left #haiku[07:30:15] <geist> might be a new nic driver or two[07:30:20] <JonathanThompson> My contract-to-hire at Coinstar didn't work out exactly as expected: there was some financial shenanigans done by someone above my manager with under-the-table stuff that kept them from being able to hire me.[07:30:23] <umccullough> geist, doubt it ;)[07:30:24] <umccullough> vlance maybe[07:30:34] <JonathanThompson> But, it seems that's worked out better for me, strangely enough.[07:30:48] <Teknomancer> ah, so when do u join ?[07:30:49] <JonathanThompson> I completed my shortest ever job search.[07:31:00] <Yez_> did you get another job?[07:31:07] <Yez_> not M$ ?[07:31:12] <JonathanThompson> Yes, before I got done with the old one :)[07:31:21] <JonathanThompson> Not M$ (They were wanting to talk to me)[07:31:29] <Luposian> Last time I tried... Haiku was freezing at the Haiku splash screen on my MSI RX480 Neo2-F motherboard. It uses an ATI Radeon X200 Northbridge and a SB400 southbridge. Seems I can't get ANY version of BeOS nor Zeta to boot, either...[07:31:48] <umccullough> Luposian, booting from HD?[07:31:55] <geist> a serial trace would be useful[07:32:01] <geist> otherwise it's not really helpful[07:32:06] <JonathanThompson> I know they want to hire permanent employees, because of the long training time, etc. but I'm currently working on contract at a large internet company :)[07:32:07] <ormandj> hey Luposian, what's the latest on that copy bug? it's really bothering me, somebody told me you know lots about it[07:32:09] <umccullough> Luposian, if you were trying to use the livecd, that's why it failed[07:32:20] <JonathanThompson> I started Monday morning.[07:32:22] <Yez_> cool JonathanThompson, so now you have PLENTY of time to work on Project X[07:32:31] <JonathanThompson> ???[07:32:31] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson yes where is Project X :([07:32:37] <Teknomancer> show me the screenshots!!!!!!![07:32:45] * JonathanThompson shoots a screen and shows Teknomancer[07:32:56] <JonathanThompson> Darn, used too powerful of a gun :P[07:33:03] * JonathanThompson gets another monitor out[07:33:05] <Teknomancer> pffft :)[07:33:22] <JonathanThompson> My new employer (indirectly) is Yahoo![07:33:34] <ormandj> doing what?[07:33:41] <JonathanThompson> I don't know exactly what my project will be, but data mining somehow.[07:33:45] <Luposian> Funny, Ormandj... actually, I've personally witnessed a very specific situation where Haiku seem to actually write to the disk and purge the RAM![07:33:54] <umccullough> well, 'night night time[07:33:55] <JonathanThompson> With multi-petabyte databases.[07:33:56] <ormandj> Luposian: omg, really?[07:34:03] <umccullough> lol, ok that's funny[07:34:06] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: yeah, but what do *you* do?[07:34:14] <Yez_> AND Project X, right JonathanThompson? we need a NICE IDE for Haiku![07:34:16] <JonathanThompson> I'm still being trained :P[07:34:25] <geist> there was some file cache work recently[07:34:26] <JonathanThompson> I won't disagree there, Yez_ :)[07:34:35] <geist> my guess is there was something that was holding more blocks than it needed[07:34:40] <JonathanThompson> I don't even have a fully configured development machine there yet.[07:34:43] <geist> however, the VM backend is still incomplete[07:34:43] <umccullough> yeah - i saw a lot of kernel/cache and kernel/vm checkins in the last month[07:34:51] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: in other words, you're going to be programming?[07:34:56] * Teknomancer found JonathanThompson on orkut[07:35:04] <JonathanThompson> ormandj, if you can find a definite definition, the title is "DMS Consultant"[07:35:08] <geist> mostly my fault, i had never gottena round to finishing it in newos, and haiku forked the incomple VM[07:35:20] <umccullough> heh...geist, fix it![07:35:21] <JonathanThompson> That's my understanding, ormandj: they wanted someone with strong C++ skills.[07:35:23] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: just asking you what you'll be doing, i didn't expect it to be such a hard question ;)[07:35:27] <umccullough> ok, bye everyone[07:35:31] <Teknomancer> i wanna do a cool IDE for Haiku but the Editor is the problem :([07:35:32] <ormandj> night night bud[07:35:33] <geist> i wish i had the time, but i have a pile of projects at the same time[07:35:34] <Teknomancer> the rest is fairly easy[07:35:43] <JonathanThompson> I interviewed without even knowing what I was being interviewed for, ormandj :P[07:35:44] <Luposian> I'm hoping it starts to resolve it self more and more as the revisions ramp up. Last revision I JAM'd was 20,515. By now, that's like 75-100 revisions old![07:35:47] <geist> and the bottom half of the VM is fairly complicated[07:36:14] <geist> it really needs a redesign, but that's gonna be hard. doubly so because of all the new code that's been splattered on top of the newos vm[07:36:14] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: most people ask during the interview :p prior to negotiating salary :p but that's cool, good luck on your new job (whatever it is!)[07:36:27] *** umccullough has left #haiku[07:36:32] <geist> some is better than others. I think there was initially a bunch of junk added that subtly broke a lot of stuff in newos[07:36:38] <JonathanThompson> I didn't have an exact matching resume for their positions, but they still replied within an hour to the Volt recruiter that they wanted to see me Monday or Tuesday, when they replied on the Friday.[07:36:42] <geist> my fault again really, I didn't document every super tricky spot[07:36:55] <JonathanThompson> It's a contract position, and that was set up front.[07:37:06] <ormandj> contract to hire, or contract only?[07:37:11] <JonathanThompson> Not a bad wage, mind you :)[07:37:17] <ormandj> i hear yahoo is pretty nice to work for :)[07:37:26] <Yez_> OOH!!!! Teknomancer and JonathanThompson working together on Project X! that sounds like a GREAT idea![07:37:31] <JonathanThompson> No promises, but the best evidence I have is they'd prefer to keep people around long-term due to training curves.[07:37:41] <Teknomancer> haha Yez_ no :) Project X is commercial ;)[07:37:49] <Luposian> Question... back when computers didn't have a lot of RAM available, having "virtual memory" was a necessity. But nowadays, we have hundreds of megs to a couple gigs of RAM or more... what is the purpose of virtual memory anymore?[07:38:00] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: I noticed a lot of companies lately "say" that, but it really means they hire contract workers so that if they suck, they can nuke them. anybody who doesn't suck ends up getting hired perm.[07:38:13] <ormandj> it's a recent thing (past 5 years or so) that's been catching on[07:38:16] <JonathanThompson> Yes, try before they buy.[07:38:18] <geist> absolutely you need virtual memory[07:38:19] <Teknomancer> Yez_ we need a quick/fast IDE more quickly done than the more feature filled Project X[07:38:22] <ormandj> something like that JonathanThompson[07:38:25] <Yez_> Luposian because "we have always done it like that"[07:38:33] <geist> no, that's not the case[07:38:40] <ormandj> Luposian: i use virtual memory because HD porn doesn't fit in RAM :/[07:38:56] <Yez_> heheh[07:39:04] <geist> "virtual memory" is really a whole bunch of seperate things[07:39:05] <geist> *one* of it's functions is to provide more ram than present[07:39:05] <Teknomancer> can haiku work without VM like BeOS did ? (though its totally not necessary)[07:39:10] <JonathanThompson> What Yahoo is paying me for this contract is comparable to at least an SDE 3 level position at Microsoft.[07:39:21] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: congratulations :)[07:39:24] <JonathanThompson> Thanks :)[07:39:32] <geist> but it's basic task is to manage physical memory and it's use[07:39:33] <JonathanThompson> And I'll have a lot of learning to do, I know that.[07:39:49] <geist> and with any modern file cache design, file data occupies virtual ram just like anything else[07:39:57] <JonathanThompson> I'm going to be full-time developing on Linux, though I also have a Windows laptop.[07:40:06] <geist> so, for example, if you opened and read 5GB of files, it's effectively like mmapping all 5GB[07:40:19] <geist> which obviously means you need to start evicting pages[07:40:25] <ormandj> they're not using fbsd for anything other than web front servers anymore from what i understand, too bad :p[07:40:30] <JonathanThompson> Ack, BeOS is so simple to configure for dependencies: it's a mess to setup the machine I'm working on under Linux.[07:40:33] <geist> which is the problem with the VM now, the back end eviction isn't complete[07:41:01] <Teknomancer> eviction? u mean freeing from physical RAM into VM ?[07:41:06] <ormandj> i'm good at evictions, just code me into the VM :p[07:41:07] <JonathanThompson> There's at least 40 things that need to be installed on the linux box for what I'm supposed to be working on (whatever it is!)[07:41:12] <geist> also note when i say "VM" as in the big pile of code that deals with ram, I really mean something like 'memory manager'[07:41:31] <Luposian> So, whgat, most likely is causing Haiku to KDL when you copy more than your physical amount of RAM, never mind the fact it's eating RAM at all to file copy, period.[07:42:07] <geist> Teknomancer: like you want to bring something new into memory (new piece of a file you're reading) and all physical pages are in use, so you need to go find something to either page out (dirty pages, something taht was brought in and written to) or just toss[07:42:13] <ormandj> Luposian: it's not paging stuff out properly, don't worry about it, they'll fix it eventually[07:42:22] <geist> Luposian: basically[07:42:24] <JonathanThompson> My best understanding is I'm going to be let loose on looking at the schema for a large database for a couple weeks as part of training.[07:42:35] <Teknomancer> geist ah like MFU scheduling of the pages....[07:42:39] <geist> it eventually fills up all of RAm, and has no back end to actually evict the pages back out again[07:42:40] <Teknomancer> most frequently used etc[07:42:43] <geist> Teknomancer: right[07:42:46] <Teknomancer> ah ok[07:42:49] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: teaching you large scale db design? have fun with normalization :p[07:42:50] <Luposian> Why is Haiku copying in memory as well as copying to memory, thus eating up TWICE as much memory, in the end. My 200Mb Xfer Test folder takes up 400Mb of RAM![07:42:55] <JonathanThompson> Do you have an employer in mind for the near-term, Teknomancer?[07:43:04] <geist> that's easy, it's cached the pages for the source and destination file[07:43:11] <JonathanThompson> Should be fun, especially with the size involved :)[07:43:15] <ormandj> Luposian: because jesus told it to[07:43:15] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson actually i'm thinking whether to pursue higher studies to learn more driver/kernel stuff or find a new job[07:43:32] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson not yet decided if it is WORTH learning that stuff because everything is going free/open-source[07:43:37] <JonathanThompson> I wish I had the financial capacity to have that choice, Teknomancer :)[07:43:42] <ormandj> Teknomancer: read solaris internals, if you can dredge through it, you'll have a job instantly[07:43:48] *** [Nies] has quit IRC[07:44:05] <JonathanThompson> During the interview, they asked me what my thoughts would be on working in the Linux kernel.[07:44:11] <JonathanThompson> Or at least kernel programming.[07:44:12] *** [Nies] has joined #haiku[07:44:15] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson and ?[07:44:22] <geist> mind you i had a bunch of this implemented in newos, but the bottom end was mostly disabled in haiku because frankly the implementation sucked[07:44:23] <Teknomancer> what did u say for that ?[07:44:24] <JonathanThompson> I'd have no problem if they assigned that to me :)[07:44:26] <Luposian> Ormadj... don't you have an appointment with Bernd Korz or something?[07:44:29] <JonathanThompson> Wouldn't be the first time.[07:44:30] <Luposian> :-)[07:44:43] <Teknomancer> ah ok[07:44:44] <geist> Luposian: you got me now, if you have any other technical questions about this, do so now[07:45:09] <Teknomancer> would ZFS be a likely candidate to replace BFS in Haiku ?[07:45:13] * JonathanThompson wonders what all the reasons were they responded within an hour, despite not having a matching resume...[07:45:14] <Teknomancer> BFS is slow for small files i'm told[07:45:15] <ormandj> Teknomancer: http://www.amazon.com/Solaris-TM-Internals-OpenSolaris-Architecture/dp/0131482092/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-5804908-5132067?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175751881&sr=8-2 <-- i wasn't joking about that, btw[07:45:21] <Luposian> I dun understand...[07:45:22] <JonathanThompson> Yes it is, Teknomancer.[07:45:32] <geist> Luposian: you dont understand what?[07:45:34] <ormandj> Teknomancer: ZFS is probably the best available OSS filesystem/management system/etc available now[07:45:37] <Teknomancer> ormandj hmm u mean self learn that stuff ?[07:45:42] <JonathanThompson> Too much overhead for attributes compared to the size of the file for regular file I/O[07:45:50] <ormandj> Teknomancer: uh, why waste money on schooling that won't teach you nearly as much?[07:46:08] <ormandj> a degree == foot in the door != learning[07:46:12] <Luposian> Never mind... I had a brain fart...[07:46:20] <Luposian> What do you mean, I have you now?[07:46:23] <JonathanThompson> See if you can convince a company to pay you as you learn on the job, Teknomancer: it's a tried-and-trued technique :P[07:46:24] <Teknomancer> ormandj i wasn't able to self learn from looking at the haiku kernel code[07:46:25] <Teknomancer> atleast not yet[07:46:33] <ormandj> Luposian: he means if you have questions, ask them now while he's here[07:46:40] <Teknomancer> [22:46] <JonathanThompson> See if you can convince a company to pay you as you learn on the job, Teknomancer: it's a tried-and-trued technique :P <-- ah yes would be even better[07:46:42] <geist> as in, i'm present on the channel, you're here. I wrote most of the haiku VM, and you obviously have some long standing beef[07:46:56] <ormandj> Teknomancer: you have to come up with a project and start trying to do it, then read to learn what you need to know. start simple and move on up[07:47:05] <geist> I'd rather get this sorted out so you'll stop going to osnews and spewing fud about the now-famous "Luposian Bug"[07:47:06] <ormandj> and yeah, JonathanThompson's idea is best[07:47:11] <JonathanThompson> How do you think I got to my current point? It most definitely wasn't from what I formally had lessons on in a classroom, Teknomancer.[07:47:14] <ormandj> if you can get a company to sponsor you, you'll win[07:47:15] <Teknomancer> ormandj yeah but i don't have hardware that i can burn by writing the kernel :))[07:47:27] <Luposian> Well, all I want is the problem to be fixed, so I can start USING Haiku more than just a few minutes between Revisions I Jam.[07:47:40] <geist> it'll get fixed eventually[07:47:43] <JonathanThompson> Use their hardware, Teknomancer :)[07:47:44] <Teknomancer> :)[07:47:45] <ormandj> Luposian: then write the code to fix it[07:47:54] <geist> basically the kernel has been more or less too unstable lately to really get down to these long standing bugs[07:47:57] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson yeah that's the point :) need to find some suckers :))[07:48:08] <geist> ormandj: no, there are probably only 2 or 3 of us qualified to fix it[07:48:09] <Luposian> But how long is... "eventually"? That sure sounds like a long time...[07:48:10] <ormandj> Teknomancer: suckers born every minute :p[07:48:11] <Luposian> :-)[07:48:24] <ormandj> geist: shh, seems you missed the point :)[07:48:27] <geist> Luposian: it may be. again, there are other major things broken, and those tend to show up first[07:48:37] <geist> ormandj: I'm actually trying to be serious here[07:48:51] <JonathanThompson> Teknomancer, my experience in a formal school setting (admittedly not a computer science degree program) is that only 2 out of 35 of us in the classroom could program outside of what the instructor led us through.[07:48:59] *** arikato has joined #haiku[07:49:04] <ormandj> i am too, he's a whiney little prick, and if he's going to continue to whine about it, he can fix it himself, otherwise he's just going ot have to wait. that's about as serious as you can be[07:49:13] <ormandj> because those really are the only two answers to his problems[07:49:15] <JonathanThompson> You've already proven you can learn and progress outside of a formal classroom.[07:49:24] <geist> or instead of treating him as such we can try to explain it[07:49:30] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson yeah but kernel programming is more about learning the rules of the hardware, signals, and values right ? its not as creative as app development[07:49:34] <Luposian> For a 38 yr. old I can sometimes come off as a bit of a whiner... especially when it's something I want really, REALLY, R E A L L Y bad.[07:49:41] <Luposian> :-D[07:49:46] <JonathanThompson> Who said kernel programming isn't creative? :)[07:49:46] <ormandj> geist: we've all tried to explain it a thousand times to him, but by all means, go for it again :)[07:50:06] <geist> well, I figured maybe if the author of the bug explains it it at least takes away the right to say we didn't tell him[07:50:15] <JonathanThompson> For efficient kernel stuff, you need to be quite creative.[07:50:21] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson not as much as app development i think[07:50:29] <ormandj> Teknomancer: JonathanThompson is correct :) although, creativity can *sometimes* be a hinderance, look at linux driver source for examples :p[07:50:45] <_hugo> Teknomancer: how can you have an informed opinion about something you don't know about?[07:50:46] <_hugo> :-)[07:50:55] <JonathanThompson> Teknomancer, think about how creative you must be to properly test and debug kernel code :)[07:50:59] <ormandj> geist: fair enough, good luck! i'll mail you a body bag, because you'll surely have created a body before the end of the night :p[07:51:02] <Teknomancer> _hugo that's what it is an opinion :) who said it was informed[07:51:16] <geist> Luposian: anyway, yes to fix the bug a major subsystem of the kernel needs to be finished. it may well be the most complex part of the system. however there are other broken things in the kernel that keep breaking first[07:51:19] <Luposian> Hhahahaha! Funny one, Ormandj![07:51:28] <geist> I've sat down a few times to try to fix it, but i always hit something else first[07:51:30] <Teknomancer> anyway i really must expand my knowledge, but i dont wanna get into java :([07:51:40] <Teknomancer> so only option is to specialize more in this OS area[07:51:43] <geist> since it's a major subsystem you sort of need to stabilize everything before destabilizing it with new code[07:51:44] <JonathanThompson> Get into C# then :PPPPP[07:51:44] <ormandj> Teknomancer: try ruby, it's fun :)[07:51:53] <geist> or you can't really tell where the bugs are coming from[07:51:54] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson aaaaarggh noooooo[07:52:01] <ormandj> 3.times { puts 'Ruby Rocks!' }[07:52:12] <JonathanThompson> It appears I'll have a reason to use Ruby at Yahoo.[07:52:31] <Teknomancer> ormandj are u a kernel coder as well ?[07:52:36] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: you're going to love it, honestly. i haven't programmed in a good 4 years or so, and i saw ruby and gave it a go, and i'm having FUN :)[07:52:48] <ormandj> Teknomancer: used to be, back in the day (~'95)[07:52:49] <geist> the reason syncing generally fixes the problem is it forces more or less a pass on the pages to see if they're dirty and writes em out[07:52:56] <JonathanThompson> I still don't know exactly what they have in mind for me to do :P[07:52:57] <Teknomancer> ormandj k[07:52:59] <geist> which is basically what the back end of the VM would be doing automatically usually[07:53:00] <Luposian> One thing I've noticed is that it seems sometimes things that work in one revision stop working in another. Is this a case of developers stepping on each other's toes, code-wise, or is it just the way programming works... something fixed, breaks something else?[07:53:05] <geist> it forces a flush[07:53:25] <geist> Luposian: probably, things are a big looser than I personally like, but what the hey[07:53:30] <geist> folks aren't getting paid for it[07:53:36] <ormandj> Luposian: fixed/breaks. or more likely, something gets fixed so it exposes flaws in something else[07:53:53] <ormandj> or just plain bugs :p[07:53:56] <geist> yup[07:54:00] <JonathanThompson> I had a flash of inspiration between the interview and before I started working at Yahoo, and came up with (if it works) I think will be a patentable bit of string indexing/searching algorithm.[07:54:11] <geist> i'm absolutely surprised it works as well as it does actually[07:54:29] <geist> it totally blows me away that it boots and runs on my crappy hobby Os i hacked to learn how to write OSes[07:54:30] * JonathanThompson hopes he's never surprised that his code works as well as it does :P[07:55:02] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: sometime, if you get bored, i'll have to go over my self similar fractal geometry algorithms for determining "value"[07:55:20] <Luposian> You were a BeOS kernel developer... you CAN'T write crappy code! It's in the Be, Inc. rulebook somewhere... I'm sure of it![07:55:21] <ormandj> was part of a phd thesis[07:55:30] <geist> I was an intern when i was at be[07:55:31] <JonathanThompson> One silly thing I did while attempting to help Bryan Varner involved writing a test program creating a bunch of areas, but then I modified the code too quickly, and deleted kernel areas from using an uninitialize array, and saw how fast BeOS can reboot :P[07:55:40] <geist> 22 years old, just had gotten started[07:55:41] <Yez_> oh, you can be surprised, the trick is to never show it. I wasn't all that good at that part. I usually jumped out of my chair and yelled "Sweet, it works!!!"[07:56:10] <JonathanThompson> How old are you now, geist?[07:56:15] <geist> 30[07:56:20] * JonathanThompson feels ancient[07:56:29] * ormandj is a baby[07:56:29] <Luposian> I'm 38...[07:56:30] <Teknomancer> ooh i'm 22 now :)[07:56:36] <Teknomancer> so i'll be writing crappy OS soon (i hope)[07:56:41] <ormandj> 25 myself[07:56:50] <JonathanThompson> See, Teknomancer? You're just getting into your prime computer-killing years :P[07:57:01] <Teknomancer> JonathanThompson bah, should have been here 5 years ago[07:57:05] <geist> but yeah the biggest reason newos looks so much like the beos kernel is it was the onlu kernel I knew about[07:57:13] <geist> so i followed the pattern that was already there[07:57:31] <JonathanThompson> For many years when people asked about what I do, I told them "I torture computers for fun and profit"[07:57:37] <ormandj> well, long ways to go, but a long ways you have come as well :)[07:57:57] <JonathanThompson> I laughed when I ran into the situation at my last job where someone was assigned to torture one with a zap gun that put out 30K volts :P[07:58:10] <ormandj> lol JonathanThompson[07:58:26] <Luposian> The fact that I can actually get Haiku to trigger a write/RAM purge by *JUST* reaching the RAM limit (512Mb, in my case) in a copy process, tells me that it actually DOES work... but trying it a second time, doesn't.[07:58:38] <ormandj> you seen those computer killer usb cables and so forth? the ones that plug into an electrical socket instead of a device?[07:58:43] <Yez_> so, are you saying that we need to invest in a nice cattle-prod to get you to finish Project x ?[07:58:59] <geist> Luposian: like I said, the problem is well understood[07:59:05] * JonathanThompson smacks Yez_ upside the head with a wet UW2 SCSI cable :)[07:59:30] <Yez_> ouch! night all[07:59:33] <JonathanThompson> Just a little dampness, and I have one ready :)[07:59:37] <ormandj> night Yez_[07:59:44] <JonathanThompson> Bye Yez_ :)[07:59:50] <steven_h> lol... symbolic links...[07:59:54] <steven_h> deceptive.[08:00:16] <JonathanThompson> Mathematical skunks=symbolic stinks :)[08:01:17] <Luposian> Yeah... Haiku for end-users like me, is a lesson in patience. Just gotta wait it out and hope it's working before Jesus comes back... but then again, if He does, who cares about any of it anyways. So, same diff, I suppose... :-D[08:01:36] <ormandj> Luposian: give it 6m-1yr or so[08:01:50] <ormandj> i think things will be a lot smoother then, from an end-user perspective[08:01:53] <geist> haiku is not for end users now. if you try to use it day to day and lose all your data, it's your fault[08:01:56] <JonathanThompson> Luposian, we'll still need computers :)[08:02:12] <Luposian> But... but... it's been... what... 6 yrs. already!!![08:02:13] <geist> because there are massive bugs that are *known* to cause problems[08:02:18] <JonathanThompson> (or at least we'll still have use for them)[08:02:27] <ormandj> Luposian: it's also a few unpaid developers doing this in their spare time[08:02:27] <steven_h> just type 'make' 5 times and you get an instant system reboot :D[08:02:29] <geist> Luposian: yeah though a lot of the work was in the last year[08:02:42] <JonathanThompson> Yes, Luposian, don't mount a partition you actually value data on :)[08:02:43] <ormandj> Luposian: it'd be like you mowing the yards of every house in your city, it's going to take some time ;)[08:02:47] <ormandj> (and you're doing it for free)[08:02:52] <geist> I'm absolutely amazed it's gotten this far[08:02:58] <geist> beos was around 6 million lines of code[08:03:07] <ormandj> what's haiku at now?[08:03:14] <geist> even if you typed say a thousand lines a day, it'd still take 6000 days to type it in[08:03:17] <Luposian> BTW, is HugoSantos a newcomer from the Google Summer Code thingy or...?[08:03:36] <_hugo> i am a beos developer back from 2001[08:03:48] <_hugo> but yes, also into GSoC. but GSoC hasn't started yet[08:03:48] <Luposian> He's going like gangbusters on the network code![08:04:15] * JonathanThompson wonders if it'd be a weird thing/conflict of interest for a Yahoo! employee (contractor or not) to consult with Google employees for helping along Haiku :)[08:04:27] <ormandj> why would it be?[08:04:28] <_hugo> Luposian: trying to improve it a bit[08:04:34] <geist> i was a little hurt that haiku didn't take the newos net stack, but whatever[08:04:36] <Luposian> Oh... hello... didn't know you were here... oops! Sorry to talk about you in the 3rd person or whatever...[08:04:48] <geist> looks like the haiku one will be slightly more robust[08:04:51] <JonathanThompson> Well, some care would have to be taken to not discuss work :)[08:04:53] <geist> once it's finished[08:05:00] <_hugo> geist: :-)[08:05:02] <ormandj> geist: :)[08:05:03] <_hugo> still a bit of work to go[08:05:19] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: what you do in your spare time is what you do in your spare time, just don't violate any NDAs/work agreements[08:05:29] <geist> yeah, I had already done a lot of what you guys are still working on[08:05:53] <geist> but it was a little more hacked in, the socket layer wsn't quite BSD, etc[08:05:56] <JonathanThompson> Yeah, and I need to be careful about new things I might create that are too closely related to what Yahoo does.[08:06:09] <ormandj> JonathanThompson: simple rule, when in doubt - don't[08:06:18] <_hugo> geist: i wasn't really around when that was decided, but i guess the targets are different[08:06:31] <geist> or another simple rule, when it doubt, dont say anything to anyone[08:06:34] <JonathanThompson> That's why I went through the steps ASAP to be able to backup the searching algorithm as mine.[08:06:37] <geist> so you can always claim ignorance[08:06:41] <ormandj> geist: i was PMing him that part :p[08:06:43] <Luposian> Refrain from the Wizard of Oz Scarecrow's song... "If only I could code..."[08:07:33] <ormandj> Luposian: so, now that geist has broken everything down to you, have you arrived at a better understanding? going to stop constantly posting the same thing? :p[08:07:53] <geist> it's definitely annoying[08:08:05] <geist> we know the bug, we will fix it, but it'll be a while[08:08:07] <JonathanThompson> The idea I came up with is given n words, and you wanted to find a regular expression, you'd spend m characters that match for all words, total.[08:08:20] <Luposian> Uh, I haven't whined about the "copy bug" in quite awhile. Haven't you been reading my posts over at OSNews?[08:08:29] <ormandj> Luposian: quite a while being 2-3 days?[08:08:33] <geist> you mentioned it this last week[08:08:34] <ormandj> i saw a post about it a day or two ago[08:08:44] <JonathanThompson> That is, finding regular expressions/patterns in a list of words in time linear to the number of matches, with little regard for the number of words that don't match.[08:09:09] <geist> though it wasn't a full on crazy whine like usual, IIRC[08:09:30] <Luposian> I mentioned that I saw that it seemed to be kinda sorta fixed... under a very specific circumstance.[08:09:52] <Luposian> That's not the same as complaining about it, like before.[08:10:18] *** miqlas has joined #haiku[08:10:20] <miqlas> re[08:10:57] <geist> sort of, in a roundabout way[08:11:05] *** steven_h has quit IRC[08:11:24] <Luposian> Y'all just hate my guts don't you? :-D[08:11:33] <geist> it was kind of like 'oh wow you guys fixed this sort of trivial bug, oh but wait i was still able to crash it'[08:11:37] <geist> at least that's how i read it[08:11:46] <Luposian> Eh, got me there...[08:11:58] <ormandj> http://www4.osnews.com/permalink?226470[08:12:12] <geist> but yeah, I do give you credit for hanging in there[08:12:29] <geist> every project has to have that one crazy vocal guy that loves it and hates it and loves it at the same time :)[08:12:43] <ormandj> Luposian: nobody hates you, people just find it annoying how you never accept "it'll be fixed when it gets fixed" :p[08:13:01] <ormandj> you're like a kid staring at a lollipop in the window, eternally, and momma keeps saying no but you keep crying for the lollipop[08:13:02] <ormandj> :p[08:13:37] <geist> anyhoo, off to sleep[08:13:43] <ormandj> sleep well geist[08:13:47] <geist> heading to sleep a bit early today[08:13:52] <ormandj> thanks for all your hard work, haven't thanked you before[08:14:13] <geist> yeah though i find it hard to find time lately[08:14:15] <Luposian> The thing I fear is the more capabile of actually transferring large file, Haiku becomes, the worse this issue will be when people start doing so. That's all. Not only do I want to be able to use Haiku, myself, but I don't want a huge backlash hitting Haiku, when people suddenly realize now that they CAN access large files, access the Internet and whatever, they CAN'T transfer large files without crashing Haiku.[08:14:26] <ormandj> geist: happens to the best of us[08:14:48] <JonathanThompson> Just wait another five years when you feel really old and decrepit, geist :P[08:14:49] <ormandj> Luposian: when you see an ISO posted that allows a direct install, that's when you need to whine about major bugs like this[08:14:51] <geist> Luposian: yeah but remember you're probably onbe of the only people that are actually trying to *use* it right now[08:15:11] <ormandj> Luposian: right now, most of the general populace doesn't even know what haiku is, let alone attempt to run it[08:15:14] <geist> JonathanThompson: oh great[08:15:15] <Luposian> I do so love my BeOS/Haiku...[08:15:22] <Luposian> What can I say?[08:15:25] * JonathanThompson thinks Luposian is being silly to take it as anything more than a pretty death machine in its pre-alpha state :)[08:15:41] <ormandj> Luposian: you can say "geist, I promise not to keep bringing up the copy bug anymore!"[08:15:42] <Luposian> Pretty Death Machine? Oh, that's funny![08:16:01] <geist> it's the annoyning things about kernel development[08:16:15] <Luposian> "... if only *I* could code..."[08:16:18] <geist> unlike a lot of app stuff, you basically have to be 100% bug free before you can really claim it ready for general use[08:16:20] <JonathanThompson> Does that seem like a fair assessment for it right now, geist?[08:16:35] <geist> so it could actually be pretty solid, but as long as it still crashes after 30 minutes, it's no good[08:16:44] <ormandj> geist: yep, nothing like a kernel panic to bring rain on a parade ;)[08:17:07] <geist> i have slightly more dire outlook on this stuff, but i've been pleasantly surprised[08:17:14] <geist> mostly to deal with the last 10% thing[08:17:16] <Luposian> Haiku is EXTREMELY stable, in my experience. I've left it on for hours and it doesn't crash.[08:17:18] <ormandj> we should port dtrace on top of the kernel, that'd make for fun times[08:17:30] <geist> especially finding those really hard to find bugs[08:17:31] <ormandj> Luposian: try doing something more than smiling at it[08:17:41] <Luposian> Hahahaha![08:17:44] <JonathanThompson> Letting it idle=meaningless.[08:17:44] <geist> without a building with test mafchines and a bunch of engineers sitting around trying to break it[08:17:55] <geist> with all of the debugging facilities ready to plug into a dead box, etc[08:18:36] <Luposian> Uh, not so... I remember back a couple years ago... Haiku was KDLing, just moving windows and clicking on stuff! THAT'S is bad![08:18:46] <geist> at be most of the kernel was written and pretty solid by the mid 90s, but we were *still* fixing major bugs up until the end[08:19:14] <geist> Luposian: thats just the presentation layer, that may or may not reflect how solid other parts of the system is[08:19:19] <JonathanThompson> delete_area(0) =kernel death :)[08:19:28] <Luposian> I remember back when resizing a window was so slow, you'd go make the gesture, and the window would spend the next 5 minutes following where your mouse had been moving... anyone remember THOSE days?[08:19:58] <geist> wasny coalescing mouse events[08:20:08] <geist> that was probably fixed in one checkin when someone got around to it[08:20:55] <geist> anyway, i sleep[08:21:40] <Luposian> I remember the thrill when that was fixed... and then when moving windows was smooth and then when StyledEdit worked just like BeOS's StyledEdit worked and then GLTeapot was working and then when Hatari (ST Emulator) worked for the first time.[08:21:56] <Luposian> Etc. on and on and on...[08:22:17] <Luposian> Geist enters sleep mode...[08:22:41] * JonathanThompson wonders how many different power modes geist supports[08:22:56] <Luposian> JT... you're funny![08:23:27] <JonathanThompson> Hey, two nights ago I wrote a 6635 word email to a friend :P[08:23:43] <Luposian> In Haiku?[08:23:47] <Luposian> :-D[08:24:00] <JonathanThompson> Oh, sorry: only 6629 words :)[08:24:03] <Luposian> Using StyledEdit?[08:24:04] <JonathanThompson> I wrote it in one sitting.[08:24:09] <JonathanThompson> SeaMonkey.[08:24:50] <JonathanThompson> I do believe at this time SeaMonkey is more powerful than StyledEdit could ever hope to be for formatting and such.[08:25:26] <JonathanThompson> She's a fairly newly minted civil engineer that hates what she's doing, but likes the money.[08:25:35] <Luposian> What a name... SeMonkey... almost sound... X-rated or something. :-D[08:25:41] <JonathanThompson> And she's having a hard time getting in the required hours because she can't stand it.[08:26:12] <JonathanThompson> Even though they're short-handed right now, I'm sure that sooner or later, she'll get the boot if she doesn't shape up or ship out under her own power.[08:26:57] <JonathanThompson> She has the advantage that she has no debt and has money in the bank, and fairly low living expenses, due to having roommates.[08:27:12] <JonathanThompson> But it's clear she can't sustain what she's doing.[08:28:21] <Luposian> Oh well, nice been chatting with y'all... but the missus and I are going out to use the spa, then off to bed. How time flies when you're chatting in IRC.[08:28:32] <JonathanThompson> Indeed.[08:29:18] <Luposian> Keep up the good work, Hugo! You look to be the next most productive coder, next to Axel! :-D[08:29:44] <Luposian> And THAT is quite an accomplishment![08:30:37] *** Luposian has quit IRC[08:43:39] *** kokito has quit IRC[08:44:45] *** Euver has joined #haiku[08:44:48] *** eNGIMa has joined #haiku[08:46:30] *** Nies_ has joined #haiku[08:54:48] *** [Nies] has quit IRC[08:57:10] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20572 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/protocols/tcp/ (TCPEndpoint.cpp tcp.cpp tcp.h):[08:57:10] <CIA-17> fixed another TCP issue: if we were in TIME_WAIT and we received a retransmission or delayed ack, TCP would wrongly bindly immediatly acknowledge.[08:57:10] <CIA-17> * Moved TIME_WAIT and CLOSED handling to common Receive() path that does Sequence checking and further tests.[08:57:10] <CIA-17> * Moved setting FLAG_NO_RECEIVE to the end of Receive() when FIN is set so we can check for NO_RECEIVE before processing the segment text just after processing FIN.[08:57:14] <CIA-17> * Added a new action DELETE to be used when in TIME_WAIT and we receive a good RST[08:57:57] <_hugo> ugh, tcp debugging :-)[08:58:10] <_hugo> 8am already ~_~[09:01:16] *** mazon is now known as Mazon[09:07:17] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[09:10:21] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[09:10:21] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[09:16:20] <emitrax> is there any news about a mkfs.beos tool for linux ?[09:19:30] <mmu_man> don't think so[09:19:39] <mmu_man> you can probably manage to build it[09:19:46] <mmu_man> wait, bfsshell can probably do that[09:19:49] <mmu_man> it does on the image file[09:37:45] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[09:51:50] <ormandj> _hugo: thanks for all your work on haiku :) i haven't thanked a lot of you folks yet, so figure i will now :)[09:52:02] <ormandj> mmu_man: same to you, thank you for all of your hard work on haiku as well[09:53:06] *** slaad has joined #haiku[09:53:54] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[10:15:45] *** stargater has joined #haiku[10:15:50] <stargater> moin[10:17:05] <miqlas> re[10:17:36] <Ingenu> hi BeOS world ![10:18:01] <Teknomancer> hey Ingenu[10:20:46] <kr1stof> hi[10:20:52] <mmu_man> plop[10:20:57] <miqlas> glugg[10:21:31] <kr1stof> Teknomancer: Are you still in Germany?[10:21:42] <Teknomancer> kr1stof no, came back yday night[10:22:08] <Teknomancer> also made a short trip to belgium to meet my cousin sister :)[10:22:17] <kr1stof> Ah - ok[10:22:52] <kr1stof> A buddy of mine wanted to contact you reg. a job offer[10:22:57] <kr1stof> ...in Germany[10:25:30] *** _konrad has joined #haiku[10:25:51] <_konrad> Hello ladies[10:25:55] *** dr_evil has joined #haiku[10:26:20] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dr_evil[10:26:34] <Teknomancer> kr1stof Oh wow :)[10:26:39] <ormandj> night night all[10:26:41] <Teknomancer> kr1stof which company? :)[10:27:20] *** ormandj has quit IRC[10:28:05] <raph_ael> hello[10:28:11] <Teknomancer> hi raph_ael[10:28:18] <raph_ael> hi Teknomancer[10:32:59] *** _konrad has quit IRC[10:33:57] <mmu_man> still that PRIfoo macros missing in ffmpeg...[10:34:11] * mmu_man arguing for weeks to get them back in[10:34:21] <kr1stof> Teknomancer: I don't know the company - I just know the guy[10:34:34] <mmu_man> just because it's defined in a stupid standard doesn't mean they exist everywhere[10:34:48] <mmu_man> it's a port of ffmpeg *to* BeOS, not the other way round, dammit![10:34:51] <Teknomancer> kr1stof ah i see... u can give him my e-mail ID if needed: v.ramshankar ( at ) gmail.com[10:34:52] <mmu_man> plop dr_evil[10:35:21] <Teknomancer> mmu_man fork it ?[10:35:30] <mmu_man> anyone who wants to try and compile ffmpeg svn and complain to ffmpeg-devel is free to do so.[10:35:34] <mmu_man> Teknomancer why fork ?[10:35:39] <mmu_man> it just needs a fix.[10:35:41] <mmu_man> the fix is ready[10:35:52] <mmu_man> just one maintainer opposes me committing it[10:35:54] <kr1stof> Teknomancer: Ok - thanks[10:35:57] <Teknomancer> mmu_man well if it doesn't affect building on other platforms it really should be in[10:36:19] <mmu_man> they talk about cleaning stuff, not faking...[10:37:00] <Teknomancer> i know, the glade sources have a lot of #defines which are downright ugly and should be removed but its always been in the tree[10:37:09] <Teknomancer> GPL :P[10:37:51] <mmu_man> I spent lot of days cleaning up teh beos port and just when I finished they broke it, so I'm quite pissed off[10:38:26] <stargater> Teknomancer: you are not more live in germany ?[10:38:41] <Teknomancer> stargater no came back to India[10:38:43] <stargater> this whas a short germany living[10:38:54] <Teknomancer> i didn't go to live there ;)[10:39:02] <kr1stof> :-D[10:39:05] <Teknomancer> wouldn't mind but this trip wasn't for that....[10:39:27] <kr1stof> All readers of your blog know ;-)[10:39:28] <stargater> Teknomancer: i hope you not demotivatet and find a new job[10:39:51] <Teknomancer> stargater nah, i'm not demotivated, i'm just sad that my new job will most likely be in *ugh* Windows :)[10:40:17] <stargater> :-)[10:40:32] <Teknomancer> anyway i'll see if i can write code for haiku in the mean time...[10:41:40] <kr1stof> Teknomancer: It might be and stay more enjoyable if BeOS / haiku remains you hobby[10:42:15] <kr1stof> It's not always a good idea to make you hobby a job[10:42:25] <Teknomancer> kr1stof well i just hope it doesn't stay a hobby OS[10:42:38] <Teknomancer> i want it to become a competitor to linux in the desktops[10:43:23] <kr1stof> :-)[10:47:02] <stargater> Teknomancer: nice, i like it when you code for haiku :-)[10:47:28] <Teknomancer> stargater yeah need to see where and what i can contribute ;)[10:47:49] <Teknomancer> maybe by the time haiku R1 is out maybe even open source Beezer ...[10:48:22] <stargater> cool[10:48:42] <stargater> i love beezer[10:48:57] <Teknomancer> thx[10:49:11] <kr1stof> Didn't you sell Beezer to yT?[10:49:18] <Teknomancer> not the code[10:49:27] <Teknomancer> only allowed them to distribute it with zeta[10:49:43] <Teknomancer> and that too only 0.04[10:50:20] <kr1stof> good[10:50:53] <Teknomancer> i heard it runs on haiku, so that's a good start :)[10:52:28] <stargater> :)[10:52:28] <kr1stof> indeed[10:54:20] <stargater> Teknomancer: timGroe2 (not yet here) works on a pacman (Package managment from ArchLinux) evtl, kan you help him ...[10:54:59] <Teknomancer> stargater is this pacman in the haiku tree ?[10:55:00] <stargater> http://www.beuser.de/drupal/files/haiku-pacman.png[10:55:13] <stargater> no not in haiku tree[10:55:38] <Teknomancer> ah its a cli-installer?[10:55:42] <stargater> a problem is the making compress files[10:55:45] <stargater> yes[10:55:59] *** slaad has quit IRC[10:56:11] <stargater> Teknomancer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacman_(Arch_Linux)[10:56:16] <Teknomancer> it uses zlib i assume[10:56:25] <stargater> ka[10:56:47] <Teknomancer> ah compressed tar[10:57:15] <stargater> jepp :-)[10:58:13] <stargater> but when you develope in haiku os self and you name will the in haikus about , then ask in the haiku mailinList what can you do etc.. (this is the best way)[10:58:20] <miqlas> Ahh! Package manager for Haiku?[10:58:23] <miqlas> Yess![10:59:20] <tombhadAC> but it is licensed under GPL[10:59:31] <tombhadAC> i love pacman ;)[10:59:45] <stargater> any bug in haiku mast killing and over 3000 commits in haiku source with //TODO //XXX //ToDo //xxx[11:00:08] <dr_evil> ???[11:00:49] <Teknomancer> wish it wasn't cli :P[11:00:52] <mmu_man> ???[11:01:24] <tombhadAC> http://archlinux.org/pacman/[11:07:40] <tombhadAC> Teknomancer, its easy to write an gui to pacman because its lib-ified in version 3 ;)[11:08:11] <tombhadAC> and its really easy to build packacges for it[11:08:13] <Teknomancer> tombhadAC ah .. good so no more ugly ncurses handling ;)[11:13:50] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[11:16:09] <stargater> hi emitrax_[11:17:25] *** emitrax has quit IRC[11:20:16] <emitrax_> hi[11:20:20] <emitrax_> hi stargater[11:26:04] *** stargater has quit IRC[11:28:36] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[11:30:44] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[11:32:45] *** ul1984 has quit IRC[11:34:44] <mmu_man> who in here criticizes ncurses ? :p[11:34:56] <mmu_man> it's a good GUI[11:37:18] <Teknomancer> mmu_man its a pain when u read it thru pipes :)[11:37:33] <mmu_man> not really meant to be :)[11:37:58] <Teknomancer> yeah but sometimes u need to, like reading rar's output :)[11:38:17] <mmu_man> shrug[11:38:39] <mmu_man> and they don't want ppl to reuse teh rar code outside with their crappy licence[11:38:46] <mmu_man> so you can't make a sane version[11:38:52] <Teknomancer> yes that sucks[11:38:54] *** absabs has quit IRC[11:38:58] <Teknomancer> so forced to use their bins[11:42:05] <Teknomancer> would be really cool if 7zip supported bfs attributes[11:42:13] <Teknomancer> would be even cooler if haiku started using ZFS ;P[11:44:18] <kr1stof> I heard OS X will support ZFS in Leopard[11:44:30] <kr1stof> Whats so special about it?[11:44:37] <Teknomancer> kr1stof as the native FS ?[11:44:51] *** Odin-LAP has joined #haiku[11:44:54] <kr1stof> No - just support AFAIK[11:45:19] <Teknomancer> zfs is a new FS that's supposed to be pretty fast and its a 128-bit FS, not sure how feasible it will be for desktops but we really need to speed up BFS :)[11:45:29] <Ingenu> native I think in MacOSX[11:45:38] <Ingenu> 10.5[11:46:01] <Ingenu> that's why they tell about data safety, snapshots and all[11:46:30] <Ingenu> adopting zfs would be nice[11:47:09] <Teknomancer> yeah[11:48:58] <mmu_man> http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/news/2004/03/62563[11:59:02] *** Sloar has quit IRC[11:59:51] *** Euver has quit IRC[12:01:44] *** Proctop has joined #haiku[12:04:19] *** xcasex has joined #haiku[12:04:25] <xcasex> ehrm hello :][12:11:02] <Proctop> xcasex: yo[12:12:22] <xcasex> 'lo[12:12:32] <xcasex> procton, i do think i'm owed excuses now :)[12:12:43] <Proctop> how so?[12:13:55] <xcasex> procton, well not to mention anyone in particular, but after i had my chat with palmsource in '03, and then told a few people of what i was told at the meeting about the legality of zeta. someone called me a liar and a hater.[12:14:42] <Proctop> oh...[12:15:10] <xcasex> :>[12:15:17] <xcasex> procton, how are things btw?[12:15:19] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[12:15:38] <Proctop> same old, I suppose.[12:15:57] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[12:16:09] <Proctop> except I will change job, pretty soon.[12:16:59] <xcasex> procton, oh? coming to join me in norway and partake in the filthy good pay that oil money gives you?[12:17:14] <Teknomancer> hey Proctop[12:17:17] <Teknomancer> long time no see :)[12:17:20] * Proctop shrugs.[12:17:21] <Proctop> No.[12:17:30] <Proctop> Teknomancer: indeed. :)[12:18:22] <xcasex> procton, still at boss media?[12:18:40] <Proctop> xcasex: yup.[12:18:50] <Proctop> xcasex: where are you at?[12:19:02] <xcasex> procton, ergogroup over in Oslo :)[12:19:10] <xcasex> i have underlings :>[12:19:18] <Proctop> ah.[12:20:10] <Proctop> I'm most likely moving to stockholm.[12:20:46] *** petterhj has quit IRC[12:20:56][12:21:15] <xcasex> procton, proctor and gamble?[12:21:34] <Proctop> heh...[12:21:35] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[12:24:36] *** Atomozero has joined #haiku[12:24:56] *** matejcik has joined #haiku[12:31:36] <xcasex> petterhj, det är syyykt varmt ute :)[12:32:02] *** axeld has joined #Haiku[12:32:03] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o axeld[12:32:22][12:32:31][12:32:52] <xcasex> petterhj, jo, men er man i stovner så är smogen o gör sitt ;)[12:33:10] <petterhj> hehe[12:35:02] <mmu_man> plop[12:35:38] *** vision has joined #haiku[12:35:51] <xcasex> hey mr. revol :)[12:36:33] <mmu_man> oh, some elders here :)[12:37:06] <mmu_man> bbl[12:37:13] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[12:39:29] <dr_evil> guten morgen axeld[12:39:31] <dr_evil> ;)[12:39:41] <axeld> Hi Marcus :-)[12:40:16][12:40:31] <dr_evil> ich hab zwei tage urlaub, vor und nach ostern[12:40:50] *** Proctop has quit IRC[12:48:09] *** MrSunshine has quit IRC[12:54:49] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[12:59:23] *** ul1984 has joined #haiku[13:00:43] *** MrSunshine has joined #haiku[13:02:04] *** petterhj- has joined #haiku[13:08:00] *** rcjsuen has joined #haiku[13:10:36] *** petterhj has quit IRC[13:16:46] <CIA-17> axeld * r20573 /haiku/trunk/src/kits/interface/OutlineListView.cpp:[13:16:46] <CIA-17> RemoveItems() implementation was missing; more or less copied the one from BListView[13:16:46] <CIA-17> (which is slow, but works).[13:18:36] *** tombhadAC has quit IRC[13:19:24] *** bga has joined #haiku[13:19:24] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o bga[13:21:10] *** vision has quit IRC[13:22:07] *** aldeck has joined #haiku[13:27:25] *** doppeljot has joined #haiku[13:28:28] *** legendi|work has joined #haiku[13:28:31] <legendi|work> re[13:41:18] *** TLF has joined #haiku[13:44:39] <CIA-17> axeld * r20574 /haiku/trunk/src/kits/interface/OutlineListView.cpp: Now handles two cases of incorrectly built trees gracefully (instead of crashing).[13:45:48] <legendi|work> haha, i thought you're talking about haikus here :D[13:46:29] <bga> legendi|work: In a way, we are. :)[13:47:27] <legendi|work> so is this an opsys i guess from the topic ... will check it later ;][13:48:02] <MrSunshine> legendi|work, haha :P[13:48:58] <emitrax_> just booted for the first time haiku from hd[13:49:02] <emitrax_> not a bad start[13:49:13] <emitrax_> welcome to Kernel Debuggin Land.. :)[13:49:20] <Teknomancer> lol[13:49:21] <Teknomancer> brb[13:49:28] <emitrax_> I got a get_boot_partitions failed[13:49:33] <emitrax_> any suggestions ?[13:49:36] *** miqlas has quit IRC[13:49:48] <dr_evil> SATA emitrax_?[13:49:53] <emitrax_> no[13:50:23] <emitrax_> I basically made a partition /dev/hdb4 with linux[13:50:28] <emitrax_> installed BeOS MAX on it[13:50:33] <emitrax_> just to format it with befs[13:50:42] <emitrax_> boot it with no problem (BeOS MAX)[13:50:46] <dr_evil> hmm ok, may I suggest using the bug tracker at http://dev.haiku-os.org then?[13:50:51] *** legendi|work has left #haiku[13:51:49] <emitrax_> hmmm I deleted all files from the BeOS root and replace it with the Haiku ones[13:51:54] <emitrax_> do you think that should work ?[13:52:02] <dr_evil> no[13:52:33] *** GreyGhost has joined #haiku[13:52:40] <axeld> dr_evil: why not?[13:53:24] <emitrax_> hi axeld[13:53:31] <axeld> Hi emitrax_[13:53:36] <dr_evil> isn't makebootable needed?[13:53:47] <matejcik> does someone know where to get beos max image for vmware ?[13:54:04] <emitrax_> unfortunately there is not mkfs.befs for linux otherwise it would have been easier[13:54:25] <emitrax_> I made the partition bootable with cfdisk from linux[13:55:14] <kr1stof> Install BeOS Max on one partition and create another bfs partition from there[13:55:20] <axeld> dr_evil: yes, but it doesn't have to be ours; the one from Be works as well - so if BeOS MAX boots there, it should work for Haiku as well[13:57:22] *** Atomozero has quit IRC[13:57:28] <emitrax_> BeOS MAX booted fine as I said. I then rebooted with BeOS live, mounted everything, removed all beos max files and replaced with the one from haiku.image[13:57:55] <emitrax_> I left the bootloader configuration untouched[13:58:18] <emitrax_> the bt just says that it panics at vsf_mount_boot_file_system[14:00:31] <kr1stof> Where did you have the haiku image whilst booting the live CD and deleting everything?[14:01:22] <emitrax_> it was on an ext3 patition[14:02:33] <kr1stof> And you copied with the Live CD from the ext3 to the bfs partition?[14:02:54] <emitrax_> yes[14:03:39] <kr1stof> But how? You cannot mount the haiku image on a mounted ext3 partition[14:03:55] <emitrax_> I previously did that on linux[14:04:08] <emitrax_> I mounted the image with the loop device[14:04:17] <emitrax_> copied all file to another directory[14:04:37] <emitrax_> I know it might stupid[14:04:40] <emitrax_> be*[14:04:48] <kr1stof> I think it doesn't work that way[14:05:17] <emitrax_> I compared the directory and the looked the same[14:05:25] <emitrax_> I'll try as you said anyway[14:06:12] <kr1stof> You actually copied within linux the files from the mounted haiku image to a directory on the ext3 partition[14:06:49] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[14:06:49] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[14:07:21] <dr_evil> reboot[14:07:24] *** dr_evil has quit IRC[14:07:45] <emitrax_> Karina`: correct[14:07:51] <emitrax_> kr1stof: correct[14:08:12] <kr1stof> install max on one partion and, create another bfs partition, mount haiku image, copy everything to the bfs partition[14:09:07] <kr1stof> Do "mountimage /partitionname" in terminal[14:09:27] <emitrax_> can I do that withing the live ?[14:09:27] <kr1stof> then "bootman"[14:09:53] <kr1stof> mark the partition in bootman[14:09:56] <kr1stof> reboot[14:10:16] <Teknomancer> hmm, mountimage? is that a new command in BeOS Max?[14:10:21] <petterhj-> cant he boot up a beos live cd, create a bfs partition, mount haiku image and copy it over?[14:10:35] <kr1stof> New? No[14:10:39] *** Proctop has joined #haiku[14:10:58] <Teknomancer> hm, was it on R5? it wasnt on R5 or zeta afaik[14:11:06] <emitrax_> is there a tool for partition and formatting ?[14:11:13] <emitrax_> in BeOS MAX?[14:11:15] <petterhj-> DriveSetup[14:11:19] <kr1stof> AFAIK mountimage is from axeld[14:11:26] <Teknomancer> ah[14:12:11] <kr1stof> http://www.bebits.com/app/3576[14:12:31] <kr1stof> I don't now if it's icluded in max[14:12:55] <emitrax_> ok I'm doing it within the live[14:13:08] <emitrax_> I managed to create a befs partition with DriveSetup[14:13:34] *** mmu has joined #haiku[14:14:52] <raph_ael> hmm ftp.netbsd.org is dead[14:15:22] <raph_ael> hmm wrong chan :)[14:15:57] <CIA-17> axeld * r20575 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/translators/raw/ (RAWTranslator.cpp main.cpp):[14:15:57] <CIA-17> * Implemented support for the "header only" extension.[14:15:57] <CIA-17> * Added missing header when compiling RAWTranslator in test mode for Haiku.[14:16:05] *** dr_evil has joined #haiku[14:16:05] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o dr_evil[14:16:08] <kr1stof> emitrax_: How do you plan to mount the haiku image whilst being on the live cd?[14:16:09] <mmu> re[14:16:32] <dr_evil> re[14:16:45] <petterhj-> kr1stof: if he has the image on another partition, he can mount it from there cant he? (if he has the tools needed installed on the live cd that is)[14:17:01] <emitrax_> there is not mountimage though[14:17:27] <kr1stof> petterhj-: Can you mount an image on a mounted partition?[14:17:43] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[14:17:44] *** mmu is now known as mmu_man[14:18:01] <kr1stof> emitrax_: there might be imagemounter on max (?)[14:18:18] <petterhj-> kr1stof: I think it's possible to mount using LiveCD? but now im not sure ;)[14:19:47] <kr1stof> I've never used the live cd[14:19:54] *** gravy has left #Haiku[14:26:26] <emitrax_> imagemounter doesn't start ...[14:27:05] <Ingenu> doubt it can create a mountpoint on a read only disc....[14:27:40] <emitrax_> I guess I have to install BeOS in order to use Haiku ..[14:27:58] *** snipe714 has joined #haiku[14:28:17] <snipe714> hi everyone[14:28:25] <emitrax_> can't it mount the disc in write mode ?[14:28:39] <aldeck> emitrax_, if you are not affraid of borking a hardrive, you can use dd to copy the image to a disk[14:29:57] <kr1stof> <emitrax_> I guess I have to install BeOS in order to use Haiku ..[14:30:12] <kr1stof> that's what I would recommend[14:30:30] <emitrax_> aldeck: I've already rejected that option :)[14:30:37] <aldeck> ok :)[14:30:52] <kr1stof> ...as long as there is no installer for haiku.[14:31:01] <emitrax_> it's a pity that there is not mkfs.befs for linux[14:31:27] <kr1stof> I've succesfully installed haiku on hd this way several times[14:31:40] <emitrax_> it's also a pity that there is not write support for befs for linux[14:31:48] <aldeck> emitrax_, i think few people actually build under linux, i might be wrong though[14:31:50] <Proctop> Umm.... why "mount on a partition"? Just mount the image in the root.[14:32:13] *** BryanV has quit IRC[14:32:28] <Proctop> or does haiku not use a "virtual" root as beos does?[14:32:32] <emitrax_> kr1stof: it's just annoying to make more partitions to install BeOS[14:33:04] <emitrax_> aldeck: many people use linux though[14:35:08] *** Teknomancer has quit IRC[14:35:32] * Ingenu defecates on linux[14:35:34] <kr1stof> emitrax_: But the advantage - you have a fully working BeOS beside haiku. It's handy as long as haiku is alpha[14:35:35] * Ingenu happy now[14:36:17] <aldeck> Ingenu, lol[14:38:13] <emitrax_> I use linux all the time. I thought it would be better to let me develop on linux and then just rebooted it and test on haiku, instead of going through BeOS first[14:38:59] <MrSunshine> when i copied haiku to my disk i downloaded beos, ran it in qemu and put it over that way[14:39:03] <kr1stof> Why not emulating?[14:39:06] <MrSunshine> i have to install beos in that way also :)[14:39:37] <kr1stof> :-)[14:39:56] <aldeck> emitrax_, yep, in your case emulating seems to be the most productive option[14:40:03] <MrSunshine> need all patches + amd patch to make it run .. hard to do that from non emulated install :P[14:40:12] <emitrax_> not a big fun of qemu :) I've always used vmplayer[14:40:36] <aldeck> emitrax_, i use vmware under linux and dows :)[14:41:30] *** emitrax__ has joined #haiku[14:41:37] <emitrax__> damn connection[14:41:40] *** Odin-LAP has quit IRC[14:42:00] <emitrax__> <MrSunshine> need all patches + amd patch to make it run .. hard to do that from non emulated install :P[14:42:03] <emitrax__> <emitrax_> not a big fun of qemu :) I've always used vmplayer[14:42:04] <emitrax__> <emitrax_> anyway to be onest I didn't know I could that through qemu without installing on a partition[14:44:32] *** bga has quit IRC[14:46:20] *** snipe714 has quit IRC[14:47:38] <kr1stof> http://www.zeta-os.com/cms/news.php[14:47:49] <kr1stof> Hm - only in German so far[14:49:28] *** emitrax__ has quit IRC[14:49:54] <axeld> kr1stof: it basically says: "magnussoft stops distributing ZETA until the recent legal issues have been cleared"[14:49:55] *** emitrax__ has joined #haiku[14:51:16] <kr1stof> axeld: Thanks - I know, I'm German myself. ;-)[14:51:46] <GreyGhost> yeah .. it was all over the place..[14:51:47] <kr1stof> ...just for the ppl not understanding German[14:51:52] <axeld> kr1stof: too late now, but someone else might have profited from it as well :-)[14:52:01] <kr1stof> :-D[14:52:14] <aldeck> axeld, thanks for the translation :)[14:53:40] <kr1stof> ...and Mr. Korz sees no point of cooperating with Magnussoft regarding the legality[14:53:53] <kr1stof> hm[14:54:06] <axeld> kr1stof: oh, I didn't even read the full text[14:57:22] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[14:58:40] <kr1stof> ...and because MS has no knowledge of possible agreement between Mr. Korz and the legal owner of the sourcecode of BeOS, MS cannot evaluate the declaration made by ACCESS[14:59:07] <GreyGhost> how did Miscrosoft come in ? O_o[14:59:43] <kr1stof> MS = Magnussoft[14:59:54] <kr1stof> in that case[15:00:00] *** petterhj has joined #haiku[15:00:07] <kr1stof> just beeing lazy[15:00:52] <GreyGhost> oh k[15:01:43] *** ul1984 has quit IRC[15:02:48] *** kb7sqi has joined #haiku[15:03:53] <mmu_man> can we plz drop that useless discussion. noone here has any proof of anything. Wait and see. Adn go back to work :)[15:04:49] <kr1stof> Sorry mmu_man this was just ment to be an info. I'm not part of any discussion or speculation[15:05:10] *** wildur has quit IRC[15:05:25] <aldeck> kr1stof, too much info already :)[15:06:05] <kr1stof> ;--)[15:06:31] <MrSunshine> beos needs a circuit simulator for mixed analog and digital signals :/[15:06:57] <MrSunshine> and PC:s needs the bebox geek port :P[15:07:10] *** ul1984 has joined #haiku[15:07:54] <mmu_man> tried porting spice ?[15:08:06] <aldeck> anyone tried the usb geek port?[15:08:13] *** petterhj- has quit IRC[15:08:22] <MrSunshine> mmu_man, nop and shouldnt be to hard from what i read[15:08:33] <MrSunshine> but have yet to find a gui that actualy shows what spice can do :P[15:09:47] *** fyysik has joined #haiku[15:10:00] <mmu_man> not sure gEDA has a simulator[15:10:43] <mmu_man> http://www.geda.seul.org/[15:10:54] <MrSunshine> tried geda and i cant figure out how it works[15:11:00] <MrSunshine> tried ktechlab also .. i think that also uses spice[15:11:06] <mmu_man> analog and digital simulation :)[15:11:18] <MrSunshine> but in ktechlab.. where the heck do i put out the wires ;)[15:11:39] <MrSunshine> but i dont get how the simulations work . .you have to get the values out of spice in some way while showing it on screen .. humm :P[15:13:56] *** Teknomancer has joined #haiku[15:14:51] <mmu_man> long since I used it[15:15:46] <MrSunshine> and there is no real source code from what i can make out on the net[15:17:33] *** guma has joined #haiku[15:17:56] <CIA-17> axeld * r20576 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/translators/libtiff/TIFFTranslator.cpp:[15:17:56] <CIA-17> The TIFF translator overwrote the document count before it was clear that it could[15:17:56] <CIA-17> handle the image.[15:18:57] *** _guma_ has joined #haiku[15:18:59] *** guma has quit IRC[15:19:47] *** _guma_ has quit IRC[15:20:02] *** guma has joined #haiku[15:20:39] <aldeck> i'm searching hard, but can't find the haiku newsletters anymore!?[15:20:56] <Teknomancer> aldeck its in bebits[15:21:13] <Teknomancer> http://www.bebits.com/app/4223[15:21:40] <aldeck> yep but it's not the official place, nor up to date, is it?[15:22:32] <Teknomancer> don't know how up-to-date it is[15:22:54] <aldeck> says: last updated september 22 2005[15:28:41] *** fyysik has quit IRC[15:29:56] <CIA-17> axeld * r20577 /haiku/trunk/src/kits/translation/TranslatorRoster.cpp:[15:29:56] <CIA-17> No longer let translators overwrite the ioExtension message when they aren't[15:29:56] <CIA-17> the chosen one.[15:31:18] <[Beta]> aldeck, they terminated the newsletters for the new website, merged most of the articles as individual posts in the blogs(?) section. iirc.[15:31:23] <CIA-17> axeld * r20578 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/translators/raw/RAWTranslator.cpp:[15:31:23] <CIA-17> Now also exports the JPEG thumbnails as images using the translator service :-)[15:31:23] <CIA-17> Note, this did not work with an older libtranslation.so from Haiku, so it might[15:31:23] <CIA-17> also not work correctly on BeOS.[15:33:08] <CIA-17> axeld * r20579 /haiku/trunk/src/kits/translation/TranslatorRoster.cpp: ioExtension can of course be NULL...[15:35:05] <aldeck> [Beta], ok thks for info, but it seems i they aren't there even[15:35:51] <aldeck> [Beta], anyway i found the one i wanted in the bebits archive[15:38:56] *** doppeljot has left #haiku[15:50:48] *** Nies_ has quit IRC[15:50:51] *** Nies_ has joined #haiku[15:56:01] *** Proctop has quit IRC[15:57:12] *** guma has left #haiku[16:02:07] *** fyysik has joined #haiku[16:03:00] *** matejcik has left #haiku[16:03:14] *** matejcik has joined #haiku[16:03:18] *** matejcik has left #haiku[16:06:13] *** wkornewald has joined #haiku[16:06:27] <wkornewald> hi[16:06:33] *** ekdahl has joined #haiku[16:06:38] <wkornewald> axeld: so, you're here more regularly, now?[16:06:57] <wkornewald> or only for GSoC?[16:08:02] <axeld> wkornewald: something inbetween, I guess :-)[16:08:24] <wkornewald> axeld: what did you mean when you said the HaikuBook is broken?[16:08:57] <wkornewald> I did a minor modification to build it on our site[16:08:57] <axeld> wkornewald: see http://factory.haiku-os.org/documentation/Haiku_Book_doxygen/html/structfile__system__module__info.html#35a8a2d8703b21e91a9bc55119a4e049[16:09:23] <wkornewald> oh[16:09:42] <wkornewald> the missing whitespace?[16:10:25] <_hugo> by the way, did you guys get any info from google concerning the available slots?[16:10:40] <_hugo> i read in the gsoc-discuss list that they were going to disclose that information soonish[16:10:52] <wkornewald> _hugo: not yet[16:10:57] <axeld> wkornewald: more: the title "Public Attribute" is wrong, also "Member Data Documentation", and finally, the functions are put into some weird namespace[16:10:59] <_hugo> ok then[16:11:38] <wkornewald> ok[16:12:09] <fyysik> well. story about debugging: Last 3 days Mozilla permanently hanged for me. Gone into code, used debugger, changed some places. Allocated hanging to happen in network subsystem. And then recalled, that I didn't put screw onto my netcard, when changed it. Screw is on place, no more hanging...[16:14:08] <mmu_man> BAutolock l(&axeld).Lock();[16:14:22] <mmu_man> // now we're sure he won't fade away[16:15:07] <axeld> fyysik: now that's annoying[16:15:17] <axeld> fyysik: hopefully you fixed some bugs on the way :-)[16:15:50] <fyysik> axeld - no, changes were for com-port logging:)[16:22:07] <axeld> fyysik: BTW when I download SeaMonkey or Firefox today - is that the same code that I can checkout at cvs-mirror.mozilla.org?[16:26:07] <CIA-17> axeld * r20580 /haiku/trunk/src/bin/translate.cpp: Translate print the output formats twice instead of the input formats.[16:27:12] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20581 /haiku/trunk/ (9 files in 6 dirs):[16:27:12] <CIA-17> consolidate all RECV/SEND ioctls into a single RECEIVE/SEND pair[16:27:12] <CIA-17> - changed the socket module to use thew new RECEIVE/SEND in all forms of recv() and send()[16:27:12] <CIA-17> - changed libnetwork to use the new RECEIVE/SEND[16:27:12] <CIA-17> - remove transfer_args processing from strace since the structure was removed[16:35:39] *** kr1stof has quit IRC[16:35:52] <mmu_man> hmm those should actually become real syscalls someday[16:36:04] <mmu_man> and passed through the VFS[16:36:36] <GreyGhost> ok .. how can a person who has never used BeOS nor Haiku .. with no programming knowledge help out?[16:37:01] <_hugo> mmu_man: why do you need real syscalls for these? the sockets are already real fds so they interact nicely with the rest[16:37:14] <mmu_man> Let's speak the word, let's speak the word...[16:37:20] *** fyysik has quit IRC[16:37:26] <mmu_man> opps, that's </Tracy Chapman>[16:37:31] <DeadYak> _hugo: probably for AF_LOCAL[16:37:50] <mmu_man> DeadYak that's not a requirement[16:37:54] <DeadYak> ah[16:38:07] <mmu_man> I did a basic AF_UNIX module for BONE without those being syscalls[16:38:07] <axeld> GreyGhost: depends on what kind of help you want to offer[16:38:11] <DeadYak> why have them as their own syscalls then? the only difference between send() and write() seems to be the flags[16:38:14] *** ars_errands has joined #haiku[16:38:28] <_hugo> we already get write()/read() in the stack[16:38:31] <mmu_man> DeadYak just cleaner design[16:38:35] <ars_errands> anyone have a recent daily image running under Parallels ?[16:38:38] <GreyGhost> axeld , what are my options? i cant contribute money.. as i dont have enough pocket money either :([16:38:43] *** ars_errands is now known as arsatori[16:38:48] <DeadYak> mmu_man: care to elaborate?[16:38:51] *** StylusEater_Work has joined #haiku[16:38:57] <_hugo> we can support AF_LOCAL without problems, im not thinking of any issue[16:39:05] <mmu_man> and allowind fs to support sockets directly, but that's not really needed for now[16:39:23] <DeadYak> mmu_man: for what, something like NFS?[16:39:29] <axeld> GreyGhost: well, what can you do? What are you good in? For example, you could write news articles, documentation of any kind, etc[16:39:41] <mmu_man> besides an fs can also handle syslog the same (I did that in sockfs) (now I recall I said I'd write one for Haiku :p)[16:39:44] *** arachnist has joined #haiku[16:39:49] <mmu_man> DeadYak that's not needed either[16:39:57] <DeadYak> I guess I'm confused then :)[16:40:12] <mmu_man> "socket" entries in actual file systems are actually only placeholders[16:40:13] <GreyGhost> axeld, i used to do regression testing and user docs at ROS .. but have been inactive for sometime there..[16:40:16] <arachnist> http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7131/haiku2or6.png <| yay, haiku runs in qemu/kvm ;>[16:40:25] <DeadYak> mmu_man: hmmm[16:40:30] <mmu_man> like when you have an /tmp/X11/X0 of type socket it's actually just a name[16:40:34] <mmu_man> bu you cannot open() it[16:40:41] <DeadYak> ahh[16:40:43] <mmu_man> you must call socket() and bind() to it[16:40:44] <DeadYak> that's what I was about to ask[16:40:47] <mmu_man> it's just a key[16:41:05] <mmu_man> so it's not needed to have the fs know about sockets besides teh IF_SOCK flag[16:41:16] <mmu_man> BFS can probably be made to handle that as well[16:41:28] <mmu_man> just need some ioctl to force the file into a socket or so[16:41:34] <arsatori> I'm trying to get last night's daily up and running in Parallels, but I'm sitting forever at register_domain(4, link) in the debug log[16:41:46] <_hugo> that is only a name to AF_LOCAL to bind to, i don't see how we need to support that differently that we curently do[16:42:04] *** wildur has joined #Haiku[16:42:05] <_hugo> AF_LOCAL even supports namespaces besides the filesystem[16:42:12] <arachnist> btw, i think i've found a bug in haiku which causes the system to freeze. it occures when you give "idle thread 1" a realtime priority[16:42:40] <Ingenu> I have the feeling that it would be the same for any other OS[16:42:44] <mmu_man> _hugo yes, abstract names[16:43:07] <arsatori> arachnist: I think that's true of all x86 OSes, most block that operation.[16:43:10] <_hugo> the only thing weirdy about AF_LOCAL is that we have to resolve the path that is given to bind() to[16:43:19] <mmu_man> I implemented that as "\0@socket@TTT" with TTT being system_time() or something[16:43:23] <axeld> GreyGhost: ROS == ReactOS? You've been inactive because that was a boring task to do? :-)[16:43:41] <mmu_man> I should port that unix module also[16:43:54] <GreyGhost> axeld ,naah ...more like real life .. and yeah reactos[16:44:05] <mmu_man> _hugo the syscall stuff is just for cleaner design, that's it[16:44:08] <arachnist> arsatori: well, i haven't played with internals of any OS[16:44:16] <_hugo> mmu_man: i see[16:44:24] <mmu_man> also for perf, it removes one indirection ioctl has[16:44:36] <_hugo> mmu_man: personally i prefer less syscalls, and less ioctls :-) the more shared infrastructure/interfaces the better[16:44:37] <mmu_man> but I'm not sure it'd be noticeable[16:44:48] <mmu_man> wouldn't really caer for a desktop[16:45:02] <mmu_man> besides IIRC Linux actually muxes all socket ops into a single syscall[16:45:17] <_hugo> im not sure about that mmu_man[16:45:33] <_hugo> strace wget something.com[16:45:34] <mmu_man> the only concern I have with the current BONE-like ioctl()s is for the accept() stuff[16:45:56] <_hugo> mmu_man: what concern in particular?[16:45:57] <mmu_man> the BONE way of passing the cookie pointer to the kernel from userland is highly dangerous and unsecure[16:46:02] <_hugo> ah[16:46:24] <mmu_man> (accept asks for the cookie ptr, allocates another socket and sets its parent cookie from userland[16:46:35] <mmu_man> anyone can fake the ioctl and crash the kernel[16:46:53] <_hugo> yes, more or less. but that can be improved[16:46:53] <Ingenu> fix it ! ^^[16:47:04] <arsatori> ahh, killing the network card got haiku up in parallels.[16:47:17] <_hugo> arsatori: do you know what hardware it emulates?[16:47:28] <mmu_man> a better yet simple way would be generating a one-time key and pass it back and only check in a linked list[16:47:38] <arsatori> rtk9k[16:47:41] <mmu_man> (must also check for teh same team as the parent socket)[16:47:50] <_hugo> mmu_man: sure, this is actually a TODO item in libnetwork's socket.cpp[16:48:01] <mmu_man> :)[16:48:19] <_hugo> arsatori: and having it on was hanging the boot process?[16:48:46] <_hugo> btw i don't know of any rtk9k, are you sure that is the name?[16:49:28] <arsatori> realtek[16:49:40] <arsatori> sorry phone rang, had to do support for a minute there :-)[16:49:52] <arsatori> Realtek 8092(AS)[16:50:18] <arsatori> it should be fine, it's avery generic card, but it dies in the register_domain() call[16:50:37] <axeld> GreyGhost: well, of course you could do the same thing for Haiku, if you want to :-)[16:50:54] * mmu_man remembers hearing about realtek cards having the same ID but having one of 3 possible different chips...[16:51:08] *** jevin has joined #haiku[16:51:19] <DeadYak> mmu_man: more like 6 :P[16:51:24] <DeadYak> that was the RTL8139 though[16:51:47] <mmu_man> got a letter to post[16:51:48] <mmu_man> brb[16:51:55] <_hugo> arsatori: register_domain(4, link) or register_domain(1, internet)?[16:52:00] <DeadYak> and some D-Link card that I don't remember the exact model number of did that too[16:52:05] <arsatori> the former[16:52:13] <DeadYak> actually[16:52:26] <GreyGhost> axeld ,ok .. cool :) i'm getting the necessarry compiling stuff at Ubuntu after some time and then i'll try :)[16:52:32] <DeadYak> LNE100TX comes to mind but that might be the wrong card entirely[16:52:33] <GreyGhost> axeld ,thanks :)[16:52:48] <_hugo> arsatori: do you have a serial output you can paste somewhere? just want to see if any driver tried to use the card[16:55:26] <arsatori> sorry phone rang again.[16:55:35] <axeld> GreyGhost: be welcome :-)[16:55:38] <arsatori> do you want the debug _log ?[16:56:09] <_hugo> arsatori: the text where you saw this register_domain(4, link) line. i assume it was outputed to a file?[16:56:23] <arsatori> screen, I'll have it up in a sec[16:57:19] <_hugo> arsatori: screen from KDL?[16:57:24] <_hugo> if so don't bother :-)[16:57:34] <arsatori> http://www.twowheeljunction.com/temp/haiku.png[16:57:36] <_hugo> won't have the information im looking after[16:58:13] <_hugo> ah, etherpci driver[17:00:06] <_hugo> im really not sure of how well that driver works. it seems it is able to talk with hardware, the mac address doesnt seem bogus[17:00:21] *** lorglas has joined #haiku[17:01:27] *** sheldonc_ has joined #haiku[17:01:57] *** sheldonc has quit IRC[17:03:03] <arsatori> solaris and linux both coped with it ok.[17:03:21] <arsatori> but that means diddly :-)[17:03:30] <arsatori> so I'll keep digging.[17:03:48] <arsatori> I assume this is still pre-dhcp right ??[17:04:12] <_hugo> that seems bringing the interface up. but possibly when trying to transmit a packet due to dhcp[17:04:34] <arsatori> sounds reasonable[17:04:47] <Teknomancer> can someone tell me where syscalls.h in the haiku tree is located?[17:04:56] <Teknomancer> finding it while browsing online's difficult[17:05:09] <axeld> Teknomancer: headers/private/kernel/[17:05:10] <_hugo> Teknomancer: headers/private/kernel/[17:05:16] <arsatori> I tend to stay away from networking drivers like the plauge :-([17:05:18] <Teknomancer> axeld hmm if its in private[17:05:21] <GreyGhost> O_o real quick[17:05:24] <Teknomancer> shouldn't it be used as "syscalls.h"[17:05:30] <Teknomancer> i saw it being used as <syscalls.h>[17:05:35] <arsatori> so I'm basically useless beyone the basic troubleshooting[17:05:38] <_hugo> Teknomancer: the directory is included by the build system[17:05:43] <axeld> Teknomancer: "" is for local headers, not private headers[17:06:06] <Teknomancer> _hugo yeah i know but just thought it would be easier to differentiate between them[17:06:10] <_hugo> arsatori: but it hangs and doesnt' crash right?[17:06:15] <Teknomancer> axeld local as the one's in the same directory as the cpp ?[17:06:26] <_hugo> Teknomancer: what axel said makes sense :-) and yes, thats local[17:06:27] <Teknomancer> in which case haiku doesn't have headers in the same dir as the cpp,[17:06:36] <arsatori> yeah, it just sits there doing nothing forever[17:06:36] <_hugo> Teknomancer: it does have some[17:06:46] <Teknomancer> _hugo oh.. hmm,[17:07:56] <_hugo> arsatori: to find that issue some changes are needed. its hard to instruct someone to debug a problem that deep[17:08:13] <mmu_man> damn I'm asleep again :-([17:08:20] <_hugo> arsatori: but leave a ticket in dev.haiku-os.org so we don't forget about it[17:08:40] <arsatori> _hugo yeah, I'm headed over there to file a bug .[17:08:48] <_hugo> thanks[17:08:55] <arsatori> any other details I can provide to make it easier ?[17:09:14] <_hugo> arsatori: if you have linux installed, the pci ids[17:09:28] <Teknomancer> hmm i guess it would be better if i get svn and download the tree[17:09:29] <arsatori> no linux installed :([17:09:38] <Teknomancer> navigating online isn't making things easy[17:09:46] <_hugo> arsatori: well, if you can find out the pci ids that would help. maybe booting a live cd[17:09:50] <arsatori> just Windows and Haiku in seperate vm's[17:10:20] *** sheldonc_ is now known as sheldonc[17:10:25] <arsatori> I don't think they are the same. I'm going to try a parallel's hack to see what I can find[17:11:23] <_hugo> i need to grab a coffee as well :-) brb[17:12:50] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[17:13:16] <arsatori> admittedly, running without networking, it flies though :-)[17:13:30] <arsatori> 130 fps in glteapot[17:14:40] <mmu_man> don't cheat[17:15:28] <mmu_man> drawing to system memory is way faster than to a real framebuffer[17:15:33] <GreyGhost> i was wondering.. how does Haiku run GLpot ? mesa or hardware rendering? cos afaik VMware player doesnt have hardware rendering yet it worked fine for me..[17:15:39] <mmu_man> mesa[17:15:50] <GreyGhost> ahh.. ok[17:16:54] *** absabs has joined #haiku[17:17:30] *** jevin has quit IRC[17:23:34] *** Kernel86 has quit IRC[17:27:46] <arsatori> anyone remember the mod to force the vesa mode default without having to change it each time at boot[17:28:30] <mmu_man> http://www.betips.net/chunga.php?id=365[17:29:07] *** emitrax__ has quit IRC[17:31:51] <arachnist> it would be nice if haiku could use that chromium/vmgl thingnie ;>[17:34:34] *** guildencrantz has joined #haiku[17:36:35] *** Sloar has joined #haiku[17:43:12] *** Leszek has joined #haiku[17:43:29] <Leszek> gi[17:47:36] <mmu_man> joe![17:50:00] <Teknomancer> vs[17:50:01] <Teknomancer> cobra[17:53:20] *** arikato has quit IRC[17:55:32] <emitrax_> what else can I use beside ImageMounter to mount the haiku.image in BeOS MAX ?[17:56:10] <DeadYak> mkdir /haikuimage ; mount -t bfs haiku.image /haikuimage ?[17:58:25] *** Leszek has quit IRC[17:58:38] <emitrax_> DeadYak: nope[17:59:21] <emitrax_> it seems like mount doesn't mount image[17:59:32] <Teknomancer> emitrax_ what error does it say?[17:59:41] <mmu_man> a) sync before mount[17:59:50] <mmu_man> b) use full (absolute path) to the image[17:59:51] <emitrax_> mount:no such device[18:00:03] <emitrax_> mmu_man: how do I sync?[18:00:09] <emitrax_> mmu_man: of course I used the absolute path[18:00:14] <Teknomancer> emitrax_ sync enter?[18:00:16] <mmu_man> mkdir /h; sync; mount ...[18:00:48] <emitrax_> sorry guys if I asked stupid question but I'm absolutely new to BeOS-like system and I'm trying to install Haiku[18:00:59] <mmu_man> the kernel doesn't have the same working directory as the process calling mount, so it can't find the relative path[18:01:06] *** arsatori has left #haiku[18:01:49] <emitrax_> I just tried to mount it from the directory that contains the image[18:01:56] <emitrax_> which is on a ext3 partition by the way[18:02:08] <emitrax_> could that be the problem ?[18:02:29] <mmu_man> no[18:02:33] <mmu_man> [18:05] <mmu_man> the kernel doesn't have the same working directory as the process calling mount, so it can't find the relative path[18:02:50] <mmu_man> mkdir /h; sync; mount -t bfs /full/path/to/theimage /h[18:03:09] <emitrax_> mmu_man: that's what I did the first time[18:03:19] <mmu_man> always works here[18:03:24] <mmu_man> at least under BeOS[18:03:36] <Teknomancer> under BeOS u didn't need to sync even me thinks[18:04:13] <mmu_man> knowing how broken the cache is I do it just in case[18:04:14] <DeadYak> it did sometimes[18:04:17] <emitrax_> I'm on BeOS MAX[18:04:46] <mmu_man> well it works here...[18:05:26] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20582 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/ (4 files in 3 dirs): properly support MSG_TRUNC. we don't even have to trim the buffer, just try to fill the user buffers as much as possible[18:05:34] <emitrax_> ok[18:05:37] <mmu_man> hmm oh well, maybe it's because the kernel can't open the image for read-write[18:05:41] <emitrax_> I copied the image to my Desktop[18:05:44] <emitrax_> and then mount it[18:05:47] <emitrax_> it worked[18:05:48] <DeadYak> ext3 driver is read only[18:05:52] <DeadYak> isn't it?[18:05:55] <mmu_man> if it's on ext3 indeed it will be readonly[18:05:59] <emitrax_> I dont know[18:06:01] <DeadYak> that'd explain that[18:06:08] <mmu_man> R5 doesn't have option to mount read-only[18:06:12] <emitrax_> but I guess it was due to a space present in the path[18:06:28] <mmu_man> emitrax_ it's certainly because ext3 is readonly[18:06:48] <Teknomancer> even mkdir wouldn't have worked on ext3[18:06:51] <emitrax_> mmu_man: when mounting the image shouldn't it only read the image ?[18:07:02] <mmu_man> no[18:07:11] <emitrax_> I didn't make a dir on a ext3[18:07:14] <DeadYak> emitrax_: not if it wants to be able to mount it with write permissions[18:07:19] <emitrax_> I made it in the root of BeOS[18:07:19] <mmu_man> mounting an fs means being able to write to the device :)[18:07:33] <DeadYak> emitrax_: doesn't matter, it has to be able to write to the place where the image is actually stored[18:07:49] <emitrax_> mmu_man: maybe I didn't explain myself clear :)[18:07:59] <Teknomancer> during mount i think even the superblock might be cleaned if needed, ... or not ?[18:08:05] <emitrax_> DeadYak: didn't know that! thanks.[18:08:11] <mmu_man> yes[18:08:19] *** jiuda_D`arkness has joined #haiku[18:08:20] <mmu_man> there is a flag telling it's currently mounted[18:08:20] <DeadYak> emitrax_: like mmu said, R5 had no read-only option for mount[18:08:31] <mmu_man> so if you mount you must mount read/write[18:08:50] <Teknomancer> mmu_man but what if u're mounting a ext3?[18:08:51] <DeadYak> though on the other hand....mounting CDs...[18:09:27] <DeadYak> I might be wrong but I think it just pretends to be read/write and returns an error on write calls[18:09:27] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20583 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/stack/net_socket.cpp: as per the Open Group Specification, MSG_TRUNC should be set in flags whenever the packet is truncated[18:09:31] <emitrax_> anyway now that I have mounted the image, shall I just copied its content to the Haiku mounted partition and reboot right?[18:09:38] <emitrax_> and pray of course too :)[18:10:16] <emitrax_> how do I see which partition is mounted from within the shell on BeOS ?[18:10:25] <DeadYak> df[18:11:11] <mmu_man> Teknomancer the kernel will fail to open() teh image read/write[18:11:25] <emitrax_> the only flags are M anf P on the ext3 partition[18:11:28] *** kr1stof has joined #haiku[18:13:26] <geist> DeadYak: there was a read only option to the command line mount[18:14:21] <emitrax_> this is a little weird[18:14:30] <emitrax_> I did a cp -r * /Haiku[18:14:44] <emitrax_> within the directory that contains the content of the haiku.image[18:14:49] <mmu_man> B_DONT_DO_THAT[18:15:02] <mmu_man> cp doesn't preserve extended attributes[18:15:08] <geist> copyattr[18:15:09] <emitrax_> and it gave some No such files error[18:15:09] <Teknomancer> copyattr[18:15:09] <mmu_man> you will loose icons and many other things[18:15:14] <emitrax_> :)[18:15:18] <mmu_man> you *might* still be able to boot, but not even sure[18:15:22] <emitrax_> ok let me rm -rf *[18:15:31] <mmu_man> IIRC the IDE driver requires using attributes to find drivers :)[18:15:54] *** jevin has joined #haiku[18:15:55] <mmu_man> try[18:16:05] <mmu_man> copyattr -d /image /Haiku[18:16:18] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[18:16:21] <mmu_man> not sure it will take the correct path, copyattr is weird sometimes[18:17:04] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20584 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/protocols/tcp/TCPEndpoint.cpp: support MSG_WAITALL in TCP[18:17:25] <geist> http://echelog.matzon.dk/logs/browse/haiku/1175496876[18:17:26] <geist> er[18:17:31] <geist> copyattr -v -r -d /foo/* /Haiku[18:17:32] *** silverpower_ has joined #haiku[18:17:34] <Teknomancer> in SVN all files are R/W regardless and not those that are checked out ??[18:17:49] <mmu_man> yeah I was quite sure it needed one more depth[18:17:55] <geist> that's what I do to copy from the disk image (mounted at /foo) to the target haiku volume (at /Haiku)[18:18:25] <mmu_man> yes I used that as well the other day[18:18:36] <emitrax_> how do I umount the image ?[18:18:41] <Teknomancer> unmount /haiku?[18:18:44] <geist> unmount <path>[18:18:51] <emitrax_> unmount not umount :)[18:18:54] <emitrax_> that's why[18:19:25] *** silverpower has quit IRC[18:19:29] *** silverpower_ is now known as silverpower[18:20:35] <geist> i have it all set up so that i build on my linux box[18:20:43] <geist> then the script ftps the image to beos max[18:21:06] <geist> and i shell in, run a script that mounts it, mounts /Haiku, wipes /Haiku, copyattrs it over, syncs, unmounts both, reboots[18:21:24] <emitrax_> that script might come handy[18:21:53] <emitrax_> can you let me have it please ?[18:22:43] <geist> http://tkgeisel.com/stuff/beos-doit[18:22:47] <geist> there's the beos side of it[18:23:19] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20585 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/protocols/tcp/TCPEndpoint.cpp: Sigh, ignore previous commit, Open Group Specification is ambiguous. Now we properly support MSG_WAITALL.[18:23:30] <_hugo> <:-)[18:24:42] <geist> http://tkgeisel.com/stuff/linux-doit[18:24:52] <geist> is what i run on the linux side (thing that's building it)[18:25:05] *** Leszek has joined #haiku[18:25:06] <geist> you want to uncomment the stuff under #beos and fix your path, passwords[18:25:31] *** Leszek has quit IRC[18:25:35] <emitrax_> <geist> copyattr -v -r -d /foo/* /Haiku <- right ?[18:26:37] <geist> well, is that what's in the script?[18:27:46] <emitrax_> rebooting ...[18:28:00] <emitrax_> the Haiku picture is there :)[18:28:11] <emitrax_> et voilà![18:28:24] <emitrax_> you got yourself a new Haiku user[18:28:38] <emitrax_> and (very soon) a new developer too[18:28:58] <emitrax_> thanks for the help by the way[18:30:19] <_hugo> DeadYak: any pointers why Vision (or the IRC network) should tell me "USER Not enough parameters"?[18:31:07] <_hugo> ah, user error :-)[18:31:37] *** _hugo2 has joined #haiku[18:31:42] <_hugo2> plop[18:31:48] <geist> plunk[18:31:53] <_hugo2> tcp seems to work :>[18:31:56] <geist> LIES.[18:32:08] <_hugo2> eheh[18:32:40] <_hugo2> redrawing issues in poor vision though. /me kicks app_server[18:35:46] *** Teknomancer has quit IRC[18:36:45] <_hugo2> which firefox version in bebits works in haiku?[18:36:50] <_hugo2> or is suposed to :-)[18:37:37] <mmu_man> not 2.x[18:37:42] <mmu_man> tried the other day...[18:38:05] <_hugo2> oh[18:38:12] <_hugo2> not even the version for R5 (not dano)?[18:38:17] <emitrax_> it seems I can't set the gateway correctly[18:38:18] <_hugo2> and not bone[18:38:45] <emitrax_> it pings my cards, but it doesn't route packets even though I set the default gateway[18:38:59] <_hugo2> emitrax_, haiku?[18:39:13] <emitrax_> yes haikuy[18:39:18] <emitrax_> haiku*[18:39:43] <_hugo2> emitrax_, is this a native setup or VM?[18:39:59] <emitrax_> hmmm.. it say 0.0.0.0 mask 0.0.0.0 with gateway ... isn't that wrong?[18:40:11] <_hugo2> yes[18:40:13] <emitrax_> _hugo2: I just install it on my desktop[18:40:39] <_hugo2> emitrax_, is the IP address it assigned sane?[18:40:47] <emitrax_> route /dev/net ... default gw 192.168.0.1[18:41:16] <emitrax_> the only thing weird about the output of the ifconfing it the mac address which is set all to 0[18:41:18] <_hugo2> emitrax_, if you right click on the net status icon on deskbar what does it say?[18:41:36] <_hugo2> does it state "Ready" or something else?[18:41:45] <emitrax_> no stateful configuration[18:41:51] <emitrax_> ok[18:41:53] <_hugo2> so :-) DHCP didn't work[18:42:02] <emitrax_> ok[18:42:05] <_hugo2> the mac address issue seems bad enough though[18:42:11] <_hugo2> what nic are you using?[18:42:12] <emitrax_> that's why I m trying to set it manually[18:42:15] <_hugo2> network card[18:42:16] <DeadYak> that might explain dhcp not working :P[18:42:22] <_hugo2> DeadYak ;>[18:42:30] <emitrax_> its a via-rhine[18:42:34] <emitrax_> I actually have too[18:42:41] <emitrax_> a realtek if I'm not wrong[18:42:52] <_hugo2> emitrax_ in that same box?[18:42:58] <_hugo2> or a nic you could plug in to try?[18:43:04] <emitrax_> but it looks like it only see the via-rhine[18:43:13] <emitrax_> same box[18:43:20] <_hugo2> ah[18:43:29] <_hugo2> it should see both if the realtek is supported[18:43:40] <emitrax_> I have two, one embedded in the matherboard the other one is on PCI[18:43:59] <_hugo2> emitrax_ does ifconfig state anything as "Media Type: ..."?[18:44:05] <emitrax_> I think the MAC address is the problem :)[18:44:23] <emitrax_> I don't recall to have such as mac address ;)[18:44:41] <_hugo2> well, not having obtained the mac address from the rom (if there is one) would point for an incomplete driver[18:44:43] <emitrax_> nope[18:44:54] <_hugo2> point to[18:45:06] <emitrax_> ip address , netmask and submask are correct though[18:45:20] <_hugo2> emitrax_ what is the pci id of the card, do you know?[18:45:36] <_hugo2> emitrax_ those were configured by the net server because dhcp failed[18:45:40] <emitrax_> no idea[18:45:45] <emitrax_> I should reboot on linux[18:46:06] <_hugo2> emitrax_ please do and get the output of "lspci" please[18:46:30] <emitrax_> have patience though. Linux boot is quite slower :)[18:46:39] <_hugo2> sure[18:47:51] <_hugo2> listdev in haiku should also work[18:50:06] *** lorglas has quit IRC[18:53:27] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[18:53:33] <emitrax> ok[18:53:48] <emitrax> 00:06.0 Ethernet controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT6105 [Rhine-III] (rev 85)[18:53:55] *** Ingenu has joined #Haiku[18:53:56] <emitrax> 00:12.0 Ethernet controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT6102 [Rhine-II] (rev 74)[18:54:05] <emitrax> they are both rhine[18:54:26] *** b3w has joined #haiku[18:54:38] <emitrax> realtek was on the older computer then[18:55:22] <emitrax> _hugo2: do you need/want any other info before I reboot in Haiku?[18:56:11] *** GreyGhost has quit IRC[18:56:56] <_hugo2> hm[18:57:21] <_hugo2> you can reboot to haiku right away[18:57:23] *** steffen_f has joined #haiku[18:57:26] <_hugo2> there's listdev[18:59:04] *** emitrax has quit IRC[18:59:27] <emitrax_> you should have told me that before[18:59:54] *** arikato has joined #haiku[19:00:33] <_hugo> there's a lot of things i should do, i can't do everything though[19:01:12] <emitrax_> I was kidding you know that[19:01:31] <emitrax_> I should go too anyway[19:01:35] <emitrax_> I'll continue later[19:01:40] <emitrax_> thanks again for your help[19:01:44] <_hugo> ok then[19:05:33] *** Euver has joined #haiku[19:08:14] *** absabs has quit IRC[19:09:01] *** GreyGhost has joined #haiku[19:14:55] *** Yez has joined #Haiku[19:14:55] *** Yez_ has quit IRC[19:24:44] *** jiuda_D`arkness has quit IRC[19:28:48] *** jevin has quit IRC[19:30:45] *** JamesB192 has joined #haiku[19:32:27] *** _hugo2 has quit IRC[19:35:39] *** kr1stof has quit IRC[19:37:19] * JamesB192 is testing a mostly automated build system.[19:43:30] *** GreyGhostNew has joined #haiku[19:43:57] *** GreyGhost has quit IRC[19:43:58] *** miqlas has joined #haiku[19:44:00] <miqlas> Hello![19:44:05] *** GreyGhostNew is now known as GreyGhost[19:44:31] <miqlas> Can anybody sent me an normal Haiku desktop screenshoot with about box, and some open applications?[19:46:06] <GreyGhost> http://haiku-os.org/index.php?q=gallery&g2_itemId=19 miqlas ?[19:46:24] <miqlas> too small. I need 1024*768[19:46:28] <miqlas> :([19:46:43] *** emitrax_ has quit IRC[19:46:51] <GreyGhost> hmm .. i cant cos .. i'm not able to use 1024 due to some reason ..[19:47:41] <miqlas> i understand. thanks.[19:53:18] *** genkie has joined #haiku[19:55:37] *** aldeck has quit IRC[19:56:00] *** kynes has joined #haiku[19:56:22] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20586 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/stack/net_socket.cpp: copy back the source address even when the data is truncated[19:56:23] <kynes> can I use samba with haiku?[19:56:34] <kynes> I have haiku vmware image[19:56:41] <kynes> and I want to install other stuff[19:56:46] <_hugo> kynes: not yet[19:56:47] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20587 /haiku/trunk/ (7 files in 4 dirs):[19:56:47] <CIA-17> introduced fifo_socket_enqueue_buffer which clones the buffer, enqueues it to the fifo and notifies the socket.[19:56:47] <CIA-17> - changed the link, ipv4 and udp modules to use fifo_socket_enqueue_buffer[19:59:13] *** Yez has quit IRC[20:00:45] *** Nies_ has quit IRC[20:00:57] *** Nies_ has joined #haiku[20:03:56] *** kynes has quit IRC[20:06:20] <GreyGhost> night all[20:07:39] *** GreyGhost has quit IRC[20:11:13] *** kokito has joined #haiku[20:13:00] <mmu_man> kokito :)[20:13:14] <kokito> howdy mmu_man[20:13:18] * DeadYak pets kokito[20:13:34] * kokito waves back to DeadYak[20:13:49] <wkornewald> hi kokito[20:14:01] <kokito> hey wkornewald[20:22:38] *** genkie has quit IRC[20:25:58] *** oco has joined #haiku[20:27:00] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[20:27:27] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[20:32:05] *** genkie has joined #haiku[20:32:38] *** wkornewald has quit IRC[20:35:33] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20588 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/protocols/udp/udp.cpp:[20:35:33] <CIA-17> fixed an issue in UDP due to copying addresses to sockaddr, which may be too[20:35:33] <CIA-17> small for protocols other than IPv4. In fact, we don't need to copy the[20:35:33] <CIA-17> addresses at all, we can use the original address pointers in the hash key for[20:35:33] <CIA-17> lookup and hashing.[20:35:54] <geist> sounds like sockaddr needs to be expanded[20:36:01] <_hugo> sockaddr_storage[20:36:04] <_hugo> should be used[20:36:09] <geist> I'd make it 16 bytes long, so it'll deal with ipv6[20:36:25] <geist> i never understood all that sockaddr mess until I wrote the stack on newos[20:36:33] <geist> and then it was totally clear why it's that obtuse[20:36:39] <_hugo> our sockaddr is already 32 bytes long[20:36:59] <geist> oh, whyso?[20:37:11] <_hugo> which is enough for ipv6, but not for other silly things[20:37:16] <geist> ah, yeah[20:37:20] <_hugo> dunno, axeld should know[20:37:28] <geist> I see, it's not that sockaddr isn't long, it's that the udp code was using the wrong thing[20:37:28] <_hugo> sockaddr_storage is huge :-)[20:37:43] <_hugo> yep. it didnt even need to copy the addresses like it did[20:39:44] *** kb7sqi has quit IRC[20:42:42] *** Leszek has joined #haiku[20:43:02] <Leszek> re[20:43:24] *** kb7sqi has joined #haiku[20:44:30] *** Euver has quit IRC[20:44:43] *** emitrax has joined #haiku[20:45:59] *** rgb has joined #haiku[20:47:04] *** josip has joined #haiku[20:52:31] *** Lelldorin1 has joined #haiku[20:56:16] <miqlas> Anybody know this: http://www.tactile3d.com/ 3D UI[20:57:30] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20589 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/protocols/ (ipv4/ipv4_address.cpp udp/udp.cpp):[20:57:30] <CIA-17> small cleanups in UDP[20:57:30] <CIA-17> - don't set_to_empty_address, instead consider NULL to be the empty address and use is_empty_address().[20:57:30] <CIA-17> - most ipv4 address module calls already consider NULL to be the empty address, ipv4_hash_address_pair didn't, fixed.[21:00:16] <JamesB192> miglas: I think I remember it being discussed as a hoax.[21:00:48] *** jevin has joined #haiku[21:02:10] <JamesB192> nvm, appearently I was thinking of something else.[21:03:20] *** StylusEater_Work has quit IRC[21:03:31] *** jevin has quit IRC[21:09:24] <JamesB192> OK, I messed up. I was thinking of something else I saw discussed earlier.[21:14:29] *** Sil2100 has joined #haiku[21:14:42] <Sil2100> Hi[21:15:05] *** kb7sqi has quit IRC[21:15:44] *** kb7sqi has joined #haiku[21:20:01] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20590 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/protocols/ (ipv4/ipv4.cpp udp/udp.cpp): send buffer size is irrelevant for UDP, instead check if the fed buffer is larger than the maximum payload UDP supported. Do the same in IPV4.[21:26:28] * JonathanThompson pets DeadYak petting kokito[21:26:38] * JonathanThompson asks kokito "Where's my stuff?"[21:27:15] <kokito> JonathanThompson: will send you an email[21:27:35] <JonathanThompson> Ok...[21:27:48] <JonathanThompson> Since we last spoke, my employment has changed once or twice :)[21:27:57] <JonathanThompson> (I think only once)[21:29:12] <kokito> JonathanThompson: will your email accept a 6.5MB attachment?[21:29:19] <JonathanThompson> As far as I know.[21:29:24] <kokito> ok[21:29:49] <JonathanThompson> I'm on a high speed DSL connection, with (hopefully!) consistent fast downloads.[21:32:02] *** [Nies] has joined #haiku[21:34:34] *** DaaT has joined #haiku[21:36:54] <kokito> JonathanThompson: are you still at @s93114613.onlinehome.us[21:36:56] <kokito> ?[21:37:03] <JonathanThompson> Among others :)[21:37:11] <DaaT> kokito![21:37:14] <DaaT> JonathanThompson![21:37:26] * JonathanThompson hands DaaT a sheep in wolve's clothing[21:37:32] <kokito> JonathanThompson: sending[21:37:36] <JonathanThompson> Ok.[21:37:37] <kokito> DaaT![21:37:48] <DaaT> thx JonathanThompson[21:38:22] <JonathanThompson> Since we last chatted, DaaT, my employment has changed again.[21:38:33] <JonathanThompson> Not that I wanted that to happen, but... budget issues.[21:38:34] <DaaT> oh?[21:38:39] <DaaT> where you at now?[21:38:43] <JonathanThompson> Though thus far it seems it may work out for the best.[21:38:44] <DaaT> mickey d's?[21:38:56] <JonathanThompson> I started working under contract at Yahoo!.[21:39:22] * DaaT pictures JonathanThompson going YAHOOOOO while jumping and clicking his heels in mid-air[21:39:30] <JonathanThompson> So I'll be flipping petabytes of bits, not burgers :)[21:39:39] <DaaT> cool[21:39:41] * JonathanThompson suspects DaaT has ESP[21:39:52] <DaaT> ESPN[21:39:53] <DaaT> :P[21:39:57] *** jevin has joined #haiku[21:40:00] <JonathanThompson> Much more reliable :P[21:40:34] *** Nies_ has quit IRC[21:41:49] <DaaT> congrats[21:41:52] <DaaT> happy for you[21:45:12] <JonathanThompson> Yes, get told "Bad news, due to someone else above not following proecedures, we can't afford to hire you permanently... we want to, but can't!"[21:45:24] <JonathanThompson> That guy has been terminated, a small consolation.[21:45:35] <DaaT> yay[21:45:37] <DaaT> pphhtt[21:45:51] <JonathanThompson> But, the Yahoo job I got veru quickly (less than a week, and I wasn't done with Coinstar) pays 12.5% more :)[21:45:58] <DaaT> nice[21:46:03] <DaaT> send a bagle to that guy then[21:46:04] <DaaT> :P[21:46:09] <JonathanThompson> And I get to expand my skillset, too.[21:46:19] <DaaT> great[21:49:45] *** Begasus has joined #haiku[21:49:47] <JonathanThompson> I'm not 100% certain of all I'll be doing there, but I'll be working with petabytes of data, it seems.[21:50:03] * JonathanThompson wonders if it could be dangerous to pet a byte[21:50:29] * DaaT wonders HOW dangerous it is to let JonathanThompson anywhere near any amount of data[21:50:55] * JonathanThompson suspects that a pet a byte wouild run from JonathanThompson's terror bytes :P[21:51:06] <DaaT> :P[21:51:11] <JonathanThompson> Is a rabid developer's bark worse than his byte?[21:51:21] <DaaT> ugh...[21:51:39] <DaaT> that's bad (in the real sense) even for you[21:51:49] * JonathanThompson imagines little bits and nybbles dripping from their chins in a messy iostream[21:51:50] <DaaT> and your standards are pretty low (hey, you're talking to me)[21:51:58] <DaaT> ENOUGH![21:52:14] <JonathanThompson> Any I/O port in a data storm, eh? :)[21:52:23] * DaaT slaps JonathanThompson[21:52:35] * JonathanThompson hands DaaT a horny sheep to slap by proxy[21:52:48] <DaaT> a horny sheep I won't slap[21:52:49] <DaaT> only spank[21:53:12] <JonathanThompson> Well, I need to trundle back to work and start soring IP addresses :)[21:53:17] <JonathanThompson> sorting, that is.[21:53:28] <DaaT> on irc while at work? Tsk tsk[21:53:35] <JonathanThompson> No, I'm not at work right now.[21:53:40] <DaaT> ahh[21:53:46] <JonathanThompson> But at work, IM is the rule of general communication :)[21:53:57] <JonathanThompson> At least it seems that way thus far.[21:54:00] <DaaT> I wonder which client you guys use at work... mmmmmmmm[21:54:18] <JonathanThompson> Under Windows I'm currently using Yahoo Messenger, which has definite flaws.[21:54:23] <DaaT> *shock*[21:54:37] <DaaT> and here I was, ready to bet it was msn messenger :P[21:54:41] <JonathanThompson> My current linux box at work is transient: it'll be replaced shortly.[21:54:51] <DaaT> ah[21:55:14] <JonathanThompson> Though I get the impression from before lunch I'll end up having 3 boxes at work.[21:55:34] <DaaT> that brings back memories[21:55:43] * JonathanThompson goes back into Yahoo! mode[22:04:35] <kokito> JonathanThompson: email sent[22:04:48] <kokito> JonathanThompson: let me know if you received it ;)[22:05:52] *** rgb has quit IRC[22:06:34] *** rhu has quit IRC[22:09:38] *** shackan has joined #haiku[22:09:49] *** rhu has joined #haiku[22:12:13] <mmu_man> grrmbl[22:12:25] <mmu_man> always something that pops in stopping you from doing stuff[22:12:40] <mmu_man> stupid configure from ffmpeg calling ulimit with bad arc (-c, but we don't core dump)[22:12:41] <dr_evil> whats it this time?[22:12:56] <mmu_man> [revol@Zeta /Data/ffmpeg/trunk]# ./configure --enable-shared --disable-audio-beos --disable-vhook --enable-gpl --disable-debug && make[22:12:57] <mmu_man> ./configure: line 1199: ulimit: -c: invalid option[22:13:07] <mmu_man> easy fix and the tests don't crash at least[22:13:11] <mmu_man> still it's a waste of time[22:13:23] <mmu_man> and they claim they are cleaning it up...[22:14:50] <mmu_man> instead of removing crap they remove stuff required for the build here[22:14:55] <mmu_man> like the PRId16 and friends[22:15:11] <mmu_man> which were "standardized" way after BeOS R5 anyway[22:15:15] <mmu_man> plain stupid[22:15:18] <mmu_man> anyway[22:17:05] <dr_evil> I see[22:18:19] *** genkie has quit IRC[22:19:40] <mmu_man> reminds me I want to add them to Haiku[22:20:04] <mmu_man> their only valid reason to remove them is they depend on the platform and type sizes...[22:20:18] <mmu_man> but it's a non-sense for BeOS as it only runs on 32 bit hw anyway[22:20:43] <mmu_man> but even with an #ifdef one of the maintainer is vetoing it[22:21:34] <mmu_man> he pushed me to clean the BeOS port ASAP on the other hand...[22:24:19] *** Lelldorin1 has quit IRC[22:28:40] <dr_evil> im doing some apartment cleanups[22:28:54] <mmu_man> I have a lot here to do...[22:28:58] <mmu_man> :-([22:30:48] *** Leszek has quit IRC[22:33:35] *** Begasus has quit IRC[22:34:43] <dr_evil> i need to clean windows[22:35:03] <mmu_man> need to reboot the DSL modem[22:35:10] <mmu_man> and try NFS in haiku anyway[22:35:13] <mmu_man> bbl[22:36:26] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[22:45:16] *** DaaT has quit IRC[22:45:20] <CIA-17> hugosantos * r20591 /haiku/trunk/src/add-ons/kernel/network/stack/net_buffer.cpp: small cleanup, use get_node_at_offset().[22:49:11] <emitrax> is there a command to set the keyboard maps ?[22:49:18] <dr_evil> key*[22:49:44] *** b3w has quit IRC[22:50:12] *** Sil2100 has quit IRC[22:51:08] *** b3w has joined #haiku[22:54:55] *** kb7sqi has quit IRC[22:55:32] *** pikapika has joined #haiku[22:56:18] <pikapika> hello[22:56:47] *** kb7sqi has joined #haiku[22:58:29] <kokito> JonathanThompson: did you get my email?[22:59:03] <DeadYak> kokito: you might get an answer to that question in a few hours :P[23:00:49] <emitrax> hmmm[23:01:26] <emitrax> I can't get haiku to route all the traffic to my router[23:02:14] <emitrax> I added the mask parameter to route , but the route command keeps showing 0.0.0.0 in the mask field[23:02:35] <emitrax> DHCP failed[23:02:40] <emitrax> so I set the card manually[23:02:53] <DeadYak> is it still showing a MAC address that's all 0'd out?[23:03:00] <emitrax> no[23:03:09] <emitrax> it actually show a correct address[23:03:13] *** bashusr has joined #haiku[23:03:25] <DeadYak> ah[23:03:34] <emitrax> don't ask me how is that possible[23:03:38] <emitrax> because I didn't do anything[23:04:04] <emitrax> it's 00:10:dc:da:32:e0 for the matter[23:04:19] <geist> OH NOES NO WE KNOW YOUR MAC ADDRESS[23:04:29] <emitrax> oh poor me[23:04:32] <emitrax> :)[23:04:38] <geist> you're a goner now[23:04:41] <emitrax> lol[23:04:58] <dr_evil> oh MAC address, ill ping yo to death now!!!!!!!!!11[23:05:12] <emitrax> can we try to set my connection first? :)[23:05:22] <geist> yeah, that'd be a good test :)[23:05:25] <DeadYak> I can pretend to be connecting as you, would that work? :)[23:05:31] <emitrax> than you can try you ping even AIBO if you want ;)[23:05:41] <emitrax> ^you^to[23:07:27] <emitrax> by the way[23:07:35] <emitrax> the cursor is very slow in the terminal[23:07:49] <geist> it's not slow, it's special[23:08:55] <dr_evil> emitrax try keyboard preferences[23:10:18] *** josip_ has joined #haiku[23:10:42] <emitrax> dr_evil: ok it's better now. thanks[23:11:08] <dr_evil> emitrax ps/2 or usb keybaord?[23:12:54] <emitrax> ps/2[23:13:14] <emitrax> how do I remove an entry from the routing table?[23:19:52] *** Sloar has quit IRC[23:20:44] <dr_evil> route --help ?[23:21:53] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[23:21:53] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[23:22:15] <mmu_man> hmm[23:22:27] <mmu_man> mount_nfs just hangs on an UDF sem[23:22:32] <mmu_man> it used to succeed[23:22:35] <mmu_man> and I get a lot of KDLs due to tty disposal[23:22:37] <mmu_man> not a good day :)[23:22:38] <emitrax> I can add and delete the default gw entry[23:22:41] <mmu_man> s/UDF/UDP/[23:22:50] *** kth5 has quit IRC[23:23:06] <mmu_man> I interrupted a ping... a minute later I got a kdl[23:23:15] <DeadYak> I was about to say..[23:23:29] <_hugo> which sem mmu_man?[23:23:30] <emitrax> but I haven't been able to delete the "192.168.0.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 /dev/net/via-rhine/0" entry[23:23:42] <mmu_man> "UDP Endpoint something"[23:23:48] <_hugo> "UDP Endpoints"?[23:23:53] <mmu_man> enabling serial output so I can get a dump[23:24:11] <mmu_man> had something else so I suppose it was an EP lock[23:24:29] *** mats has joined #haiku[23:24:46] <_hugo> mmu_man: can you run tcpdump too? see if any packets are dispatched or received[23:25:00] <mmu_man> hmm I have a switch[23:25:07] <mmu_man> oh I can run it on the nfs server :)[23:25:15] <_hugo> :-)[23:25:24] <mmu_man> but I should dinner first[23:25:31] <_hugo> sure[23:25:31] <mmu_man> and I have the whole flat to cleanup :-([23:25:40] <mmu_man> and it's 23:30 :-([23:25:52] <_hugo> well, if you are able to check the sem and see if there were sent or received packets, let me know[23:26:03] <DeadYak> I'm trying to remember whose website it was that had the title "By day he's a programmer, by night he's a programmer!!"[23:26:06] <mmu_man> and my DSL tv doesn't work so I can't even see Alias :-([23:26:08] <mmu_man> *g*[23:26:21] <mmu_man> DeadYak =)[23:26:30] <DeadYak> wasn't swetland was it?[23:26:33] <mmu_man> maybe[23:26:36] <mmu_man> brb[23:26:36] *** mmu_man has quit IRC[23:27:03] *** josip has quit IRC[23:30:14] *** tombhadAC has joined #haiku[23:30:46] *** JamesB192 has quit IRC[23:32:47] *** emitrax_ has joined #haiku[23:37:52] *** fyysik has joined #haiku[23:38:13] *** axeld has quit IRC[23:40:23] *** Ingenu has quit IRC[23:48:53] *** emitrax has quit IRC[23:51:24] *** mmu_man has joined #haiku[23:51:24] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mmu_man[23:51:50] <mmu_man> i'ts working \o/[23:52:15] <mmu_man> http://revolf.free.fr/beos/shots/shot_haiku_nfs_002_working.png[23:52:15] <[Beta]> nfs?[23:52:25] <mmu_man> yes[23:52:26] <[Beta]> tidy[23:52:30] <[Beta]> well done[23:52:35] <mmu_man> seems my probs were not from UDP but from the routing stuff[23:52:44] <mmu_man> it used to work well some time ago[23:52:58] <mmu_man> now it doesn't route correctly (no route to host) for quite some time even for ping[23:53:06] <mmu_man> have to try stuff like ifconfig down / up[23:53:31] <DeadYak> nice :)[23:53:36] <_hugo> mmu_man: nice[23:53:47] <_hugo> wondering about the routing issue though[23:53:48] <mmu_man> _hugo congrats for teh work :)[23:53:58] <mmu_man> it was locking up after 2 minutes before :)[23:54:07] <_hugo> i'm afraid UDP is mostly Oliver's, so you have to thank him :-)[23:54:10] <mmu_man> btw it was sleeping on UDP Endpoint fifo[23:54:18] <DeadYak> _hugo: Oliver Tappe?[23:54:19] <mmu_man> because the postoffice thread is looping on recv()[23:54:31] <_hugo> DeadYak: ack[23:54:42] <_hugo> mmu_man: ah :-)[23:54:43] <DeadYak> ah[23:55:05] <_hugo> mmu_man: are you using auto-configuration or static configuration? wondering about the routing[23:55:13] <_hugo> ah, static[23:55:17] <mmu_man> I have a Startup script that I run[23:55:19] <_hugo> can see from your net_server icon[23:55:31] <_hugo> s/icon/replicant/[23:55:38] <mmu_man> it seems it is actually asigning something to it though[23:55:41] <mmu_man> I have a DHCP server[23:55:45] *** emitrax__ has joined #haiku[23:55:50] <mmu_man> will try without running the script maybe[23:56:08] <_hugo> the little triangle means autoconf failed, so dhcp failed. it then assigns an ip from 192.168.0.0/24 i think[23:56:40] <_hugo> might explain your routing issues. but if you have a dhcp server dhcp shouldn't fail[23:56:41] <mmu_man> well the first time it actually did assign it IIRC[23:56:54] <DeadYak> _hugo: isn't DHCP failure normally supposed to assign one from 169.254.x.x or some other invalid range?[23:57:00] <mmu_man> and also a .240 to the broken sis900 on the same network :^)[23:57:03] <mmu_man> bad[23:57:10] <mmu_man> had to rm the driver[23:57:18] <_hugo> DeadYak: i guess so :-) but we don't support zeroconf yet[23:57:23] <DeadYak> true[23:57:35] <DeadYak> how do you determine a "safe" 192.168.0.x addr to assign though?[23:57:44] <DeadYak> arp to see what's in use?[23:57:59] <mmu_man> you don't[23:58:02] <_hugo> it doesn't do anything clever yet. i haven't touched that. it xors some bytes from the mac address[23:58:11] <_hugo> to generate a pseudo-unique byte[23:58:12] <DeadYak> that's why I'm wondering, it seems dangerous to just assign one like that[23:58:13] <mmu_man> you should use that 196. class[23:58:27] <_hugo> yeah it is[23:58:31] <_hugo> this needs to be improved[23:58:53] <_hugo> but i'll only address that after we modularize the autoconf process[23:59:00] <DeadYak> ah[23:59:16] <_hugo> so when dhcp fails, the next module kicks in and tries to assign something sane[23:59:21] <_hugo> right now it is mostly hardcoded[23:59:27] <DeadYak> understood[23:59:58] <_hugo> NFSv4 supports custom extended attributes