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   December 9, 2019
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[00:01:38] <lapsang> thats interesting
[00:01:50] <lapsang> I remember when Alias|Wavefront had that in the 1990s. I was blown away
[00:01:59] <lapsang> it also wasn't realtime
[00:02:36] <lapsang> I wonder what the cost is for this.
[00:02:47] <lapsang> could probably be done with a good reverb vst
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[00:13:28] <Donitzo> rip odo
[00:17:03] <wondows> rip softimage
[00:17:45] <brool> softimage used to be good
[00:17:53] <lapsang> ja indeed
[00:18:00] <brool> but now blender is good
[00:18:07] <lapsang> had it on indys at my college
[00:18:19] <wondows> let's hope autodesk doesn't buy out the blender foundation :(
[00:18:25] <brool> fuckers would
[00:18:32] <lapsang> I think I spent $5000 on a PC around graduation
[00:18:47] <brool> autodesk needs to be taken down by an anti trust suit lmao
[00:18:56] <lapsang> buddy I am here for it
[00:19:06] <lapsang> they sort of ruined my career
[00:19:39] <wondows> how?
[00:19:43] <brool> well even if autodesk buys the blender foundation, can't we just fork a version before the purchase? what license is it under?
[00:19:50] <brool> GPL?
[00:20:32] <wondows> I only know that Rosendall would be lynched if that happens :)
[00:21:16] <lapsang> Im an architect. their software was prohibitively expensive, and you could only get work if you were an expert
[00:21:32] <lapsang> plus the paradigm... suhuuuuucked worse than blender's mouse-button flip
[00:22:03] <wondows> yes the price of their software is to make sure the small entrepreneur is not gonna make it
[00:22:12] <lapsang> so i didnt get work out of college in my career
[00:22:15] <wondows> elitist software
[00:22:19] <lapsang> so i did other design work
[00:23:13] <wondows> hopefully everyone's gonna switch to blender and autodesk will die soon
[00:25:05] <lapsang> I regret to inform you that wont happen
[00:25:28] <lapsang> the truth is, demons rule this world. The good people are in the minority.
[00:25:51] <lapsang> and adesk is involved with Construction and Engineering
[00:27:05] <lapsang> a dream of a dictator: "A lot of them say, 'you know he's not leaving' ... So now we have to start thinking about that, because it's not a bad idea."
[00:27:28] <oni-on-ion> but lisp
[00:27:55] <lapsang> lol oni
[00:28:01] <lapsang> have you heard of python
[00:28:12] <lapsang> yes i know you were kidding
[00:28:43] <wondows> maxscript
[00:29:45] <lapsang> now we KNOW you're joking :D
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[00:32:16] <oni-on-ion> blender is py, auto is lisp =/
[00:32:30] <oni-on-ion> s[t]uck
[00:32:55] <lapsang> yea, lisp is powerful, python is universal
[00:33:01] <lapsang> so, more power
[00:33:19] <oni-on-ion> same shiz different pile
[00:34:42] <oni-on-ion> ok no i dont mean that. but apparently, blender 2.8 ui is so nice that people have recreated it for Qt
[00:35:03] <oni-on-ion> https://github.com/hellozee/blender-toolbox-qt
[00:35:27] <lapsang> I mean, theres no reason you cant implement LISP in Blender
[00:36:20] <oni-on-ion> oh just the toolbox. ok nvm. i wrote big plugins with python and after using emacs/slime, definately prefer lisp than it
[00:36:30] <oni-on-ion> yea~
[00:37:45] <carefish> oof
[00:38:01] <carefish> sleepy tiems o/~
[00:38:21] <lapsang> take... carefish
[00:39:01] <lapsang> oni-on-ion what's the attraction to LISP for 3d
[00:39:29] <oni-on-ion> lapsang, hm, bare bones AST/DSL
[00:40:43] <lapsang> what are those
[00:40:44] <oni-on-ion> it could be a lot closer to being very specific to the application rather than a 'script/plugin lang'
[00:41:23] <oni-on-ion> like (cube 1 2 3) instead of scene.newObject("Cube", 1, 2, 3) ;; brainless example
[00:41:59] <lapsang> oh yeah okay, a script tranformer
[00:42:25] <lapsang> prog transformation tool[chain]
[00:42:38] <lapsang> sounds cool, do you have much of a call for that?
[00:44:03] <lapsang> parser generators, string templating?
[00:44:10] <oni-on-ion> nah just macros
[00:44:24] <oni-on-ion> looking for a link to good example because my head is fog
[00:44:24] <lapsang> in what context, modeling or animation?
[00:44:29] <oni-on-ion> either/both
[00:44:50] <lapsang> I can see the need on the presentation side - openGL interfacer
[00:45:03] <lapsang> modeling I prefer to do offline, so I can pretty much use anything on that
[00:45:05] <oni-on-ion> i guess like how GLSL (et. al) shaders are DSL for shaders
[00:45:25] <lapsang> I do node-based construction in an env that allows any lang you'd want
[00:45:28] <lapsang> well, almost any
[00:46:37] <oni-on-ion> very abstrct link... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_language
[00:47:00] <lapsang> im gonna have to donate to wikipedia at this rate lol
[00:47:06] <oni-on-ion> heh =/
[00:47:26] <oni-on-ion> afaik gimp uses a kind of scheme (Script-Fu)
[00:47:41] <lapsang> here's what I meant about having a node based thing which allows script objects to be nodes: https://vimeo.com/118469420
[00:48:07] <oni-on-ion> someone mentioned Softimage earlier -- Softimage|XSI was great. it also used microsoft ActiveScript so you could use JScript, VBScript, etc.
[00:48:28] <oni-on-ion> cool
[00:48:44] <lapsang> yeah this has that
[00:49:03] <oni-on-ion> and because lisp code is also lisp data, the code itself is also a kind of geometry (tree, list)
[00:49:04] <lapsang> C#, VB.net, VBwhatever, python, all kinds of stuff
[00:49:11] <oni-on-ion> =)
[00:49:20] <lapsang> yeah that's how GH definitions work
[00:49:27] <oni-on-ion> GH?
[00:49:49] <lapsang> sorry, that app is Grasshopper
[00:50:14] <lapsang> it is a list-tree processor essentially
[00:50:35] <oni-on-ion> the app in the vid there ?
[00:50:41] <lapsang> yes
[00:51:18] <oni-on-ion> ah. i made something like this late 90s but with scheme (guile) and gtk but then got distracted
[00:51:56] <oni-on-ion> ive got screenshots somewhere. generic list-tree editor would be nice to have
[00:56:56] <lapsang> well this is a lil diff
[00:57:16] <oni-on-ion> what happen
[01:03:18] <lapsang> ill make a demo
[01:04:46] <wondows> who needs overly complicated programming languages when there's "blueprints"
[01:11:53] <oni-on-ion> =(
[01:17:36] <lapsang> https://imgur.com/a/EH14rpc
[01:17:46] <lapsang> something like that. Sorry, I had forgotten how to show the tree display like that
[01:17:52] <Donitzo> that's a very nice tree graph
[01:18:13] <lapsang> super helpful when you have whoa lordy levels of nesting
[01:18:38] <Donitzo> can be extended into 3d too
[01:18:41] <Donitzo> when I think about it
[01:18:59] <lapsang> yes, for other branches
[01:19:22] <lapsang> This app doesn't really allow mixed types
[01:19:40] <lapsang> from one node to another, the type must be constant
[01:22:03] <Donitzo> https://www.dropbox.com/s/purdbikva9ajg4n/s%C3%B6nder_7.png?raw=1
[01:22:07] <Donitzo> god, the bronze material looks great
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[01:31:16] <oni-on-ion> lapsang, Zoinks! You've taken a wrong turn.
[01:40:54] <lapsang> heh, eh?
[01:41:05] <lapsang> oni-on-ion
[01:41:21] <oni-on-ion> 404
[01:44:30] <lapsang> oh you didnt see it
[01:44:52] <lapsang> https://i.imgur.com/q0MwtUC.png
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[02:03:25] <oni-on-ion> oh graph editor. so like wondows mentions, blueprint
[02:03:59] <oni-on-ion> give or take obligatory colored green icon of freshly sprouting "tree"
[02:04:02] <lapsang> this is for modeling, not animation
[02:04:13] <oni-on-ion> yea. procedural modeling
[02:04:17] <lapsang> blueprint is something I associate with UE
[02:04:27] <lapsang> These are Definitions
[02:04:28] <oni-on-ion> there was a scheme-like thing called "AL" which was all that, with animation, but i cannot find it..
[02:04:36] <oni-on-ion> right. Blueprint-Like.
[02:04:51] <lapsang> yeah, but this is unconstrained, really
[02:05:03] <lapsang> Blueprint is paradigm-specific
[02:05:06] <oni-on-ion> newtek lightwave had similar, xsi softimage, 3dsmax, etc etc.
[02:05:18] <lapsang> 3dsmax never had a node editor :D
[02:05:20] <oni-on-ion> connnecting nodes and paths like Diagraming
[02:05:24] <lapsang> it has "a stack"
[02:05:43] <lapsang> yeah that's what this is
[02:05:45] <oni-on-ion> sure, thats procedural model
[02:06:02] <lapsang> right, this is parametric, not procedural
[02:06:25] <oni-on-ion> either way , i guess it is "visual programming"? like Scratch, Interface Builder, shader editor - Blender has it in a couple forms (shaders, game logic, etc)
[02:06:43] <lapsang> yes its visual programming for sure
[02:06:50] <oni-on-ion> but i was thinking more focused on the language part itself rather than a Graphics Mode view
[02:07:03] <lapsang> has all the necessary things, but state has to be bodged on with addons
[02:07:22] <oni-on-ion> =)
[02:07:26] <lapsang> yes correct, there's no render pipeline here
[02:07:50] <lapsang> but you can fling packets arbitrarily, and expireSolution() on external events, etc
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[02:08:51] <oni-on-ion> yea~ well i suppose whenit comes down to it, does not matter the tools. unless its good enough that soeone asks "what tools did you use??" =)
[02:09:22] <lapsang> Hard disagree there, chief
[02:10:10] <oni-on-ion> that is entirely your choice
[02:10:22] <oni-on-ion> but i appreciate letting me know
[02:10:28] <lapsang> 1 sec, I think I can disprove that with a link
[02:10:50] <oni-on-ion> eh? my beliefs arent based on proofs by links sorry. but i appreciate it nonetheless
[02:11:48] <lapsang> https://theverymany.com/public-art/11-edmonton
[02:12:14] <lapsang> If you tried to make something like that with, say, blender or 3dsmax, you'd be pretty well fucked
[02:12:44] <lapsang> the sheer effort in analysis, cataloguing, and commissioning preclude anything that's not an A/E tool
[02:12:55] <lapsang> Ive met Marc when I was in NYC
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[02:13:54] <lapsang> If the thing you're building a) has almost no two forms alike b) has hundreds of thousands of forms c) can kill members of the public if it collapses...
[02:14:16] <lapsang> You need a tool which can handle that. Max and Blender cannot.
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[02:15:10] <lapsang> the fabrication process is so intense. Parts are funicular assembled and then reanalyzed
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[02:23:10] <oni-on-ion> what r u talking boot
[02:23:13] <Donitzo> need more litrpg books
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[02:31:14] <lapsang> Im saying the tools matter.
[02:31:41] <lapsang> I've tried maxscript, vanilla vb crap years ago... Rhino/GH is it
[02:31:58] <lapsang> When you want to make something, not debug the act of making
[02:32:23] <lapsang> very different psychological modes, and they don't play well together.
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[02:53:18] <Donitzo> fog really does add atmosphere
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   December 9, 2019
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