[00:00:03] <LastTalon> So that you only have one way to actually make components
[00:00:07] <mijowh> you should understand it before you decide to use it
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[00:00:26] <mijowh> otherwise youll prob shoot yourself in the foot
[00:00:40] <mijowh> or impose unnecessary limitations on design
[00:00:47] <LastTalon> notchris, oh, look at the tiny earth. Cute.
[00:00:53] <notchris> ty
[00:00:55] <notchris> xD
[00:01:05] <LastTalon> Do you blow it up?
[00:01:06] <LastTalon> :P
[00:01:17] <notchris> no, you watch it crumble itself from a distance
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[00:01:25] <mijowh> cool
[00:01:26] <notchris> its only a matter of time
[00:01:32] <notchris> lolol
[00:01:34] <mijowh> thats deep, man
[00:01:44] <notchris> its an introspective shooter
[00:02:01] <LastTalon> Yeah. I'm one of those people who likes both data driven techniques and heavy use of oop and sees no conflict. And for that I'm a heretic.
[00:02:01] <Twipply> Is that a 3D asteroids type game?
[00:02:10] <notchris> Yep!
[00:02:25] <Twipply> Asteroids is also what I'm doing, but in 2D
[00:02:36] <notchris> Ooo
[00:02:38] <Twipply> Yours is prettier than mine for sure
[00:02:44] <notchris> You can switch between 2d and 3d in this one but
[00:02:50] <notchris> performance is bad rn, fixing it currently
[00:03:01] <notchris> but also in a food coma rn
[00:03:02] <LastTalon> Why is performance bad? :o
[00:03:14] <notchris> i was testing this reactive lib for 3d biut
[00:03:27] <notchris> i put a gh issue in when i noticed dramatic perforamnce hit
[00:03:41] <LastTalon> Oh.
[00:03:44] <notchris> and the author said the reactive lib is for like…display stuff only really
[00:03:52] <LastTalon> Hey, does asana have issue tracking?
[00:03:54] <notchris> so im changing back to the non reactive lib
[00:03:57] <notchris> LastTalon: Yes
[00:04:03] <LastTalon> Okay, I might be all for this.
[00:04:09] <notchris> You can even integrate GH
[00:04:10] <LastTalon> That's one of the big things I wanted in trello
[00:04:14] <notchris> and Slack
[00:04:17] <notchris> if thats ur thang
[00:04:24] <Twipply> There's mine notchris https://i.imgur.com/EZgkE60.mp4
[00:04:28] <Twipply> What language are you using?
[00:04:29] <LastTalon> I would use slack, but I'm forever alone. :D
[00:04:36] <notchris> haha Twipply this is rad
[00:04:53] <mijowh> Twipply: neat
[00:04:58] <notchris> I was on slack but when you give too many chat features people get abusive lol
[00:05:00] <LastTalon> Does slack at least have a dark theme now?
[00:05:03] <mijowh> i like the blockiness actually
[00:05:10] <mijowh> esp on the explosions
[00:05:18] <notchris> id hope it has a dark theme
[00:05:26] <LastTalon> When I last used it it didn't have one. :(
[00:05:28] <notchris> it would just be a user script injecting custom css otherwise
[00:05:37] <notchris> assuming it uses a popular framework
[00:06:04] <Twipply> Got an unsorted album mijowh https://imgur.com/a/pAS6a
[00:06:11] <LastTalon> Apparently its an unofficial dark theme.
[00:06:18] <LastTalon> Well at least someone made it.
[00:06:29] <notchris> Haha that person rules
[00:06:37] <LastTalon> Why is this not standard?! D:
[00:06:52] <LastTalon> What dev is like "why yes, I'd love to have a bright white page staring at me"
[00:06:59] <notchris> truth
[00:07:41] <R2robot> Slack made a big announcement that they were finally going to start on a dark theme.
[00:07:43] <Twipply> This asteroids thing is what I'm trying out ECS with, but you know, I suck so far
[00:07:58] <R2robot> slack dumb app by dumb devs for dumb people
[00:07:59] <LastTalon> Oh, good. About time. :P
[00:08:00] <notchris> Lol start on a dark theme
[00:08:03] <notchris> It would take like
[00:08:06] <notchris> A day, with one dev
[00:08:15] <notchris> what r they even doing
[00:08:21] <LastTalon> background-color: #222222
[00:08:23] <notchris> ^
[00:08:25] <LastTalon> It took me a few seconds.
[00:08:28] <notchris> cut, print it
[00:08:33] <R2robot> seriously though
[00:08:47] <R2robot> how has it not even been on the radar for so long
[00:09:00] <mijowh> i dont know any devs who prefer light theme
[00:09:05] <mijowh> how is that the default?
[00:09:05] <notchris> You can literally add your own emojis
[00:09:07] <notchris> but no dark theme
[00:09:08] <notchris> lol
[00:09:38] <notchris> Theres a feature on Asana, if you finish a task, you can make a unicorn fly across the screen
[00:09:49] <notchris> I turned it off, but my director keeps it on
[00:09:56] <mijowh> Twipply: its looking good :D keep at it
[00:10:24] <Twipply> The ECS is the issue
[00:10:26] <Twipply> I don't know wtf I'm doing
[00:10:33] <Twipply> but yes, I'll keep at it
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[00:11:07] <R2robot> fake it til you make it
[00:11:17] <mijowh> the larger asteroids should maybe be made from like 3 r 4 squares slightly offset, so it still has that blockiness but a little more detail to it
[00:11:36] <Twipply> That's a cool idea actually
[00:11:50] <Twipply> Most of my focus is on the ECS, asteroids was just something simply to test it with
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[00:12:01] <Twipply> but I wouldn't have thought about that I'm sure
[00:12:35] <Prestige> notchris: lol that's such a random feature
[00:12:36] <mijowh> i think ECS was like the first thing i implemented, because it was to fndamental to larger design
[00:13:06] <notchris> lol
[00:13:15] <mijowh> if your asteroids arent using your ecs, then whats wrong with your current setup?
[00:13:20] <notchris> Prestige: it might be a gnarwal *sp
[00:13:30] <Twipply> Every night I pray that I'm going to wake up to a pull request where some benevolent soul has just fixed the entire thing for me
[00:13:41] <mijowh> hehe dont hold your breath
[00:13:48] <Twipply> They album is using the ECS thing I wrote
[00:13:53] <Twipply> I'm just pretty sure that my ECS is trash
[00:14:03] <mijowh> what language?
[00:14:05] <Twipply> C++
[00:14:15] <Twipply> and besides the code, I don't know how to use an ECS exactly
[00:14:26] <mijowh> \o/ my language of choice
[00:14:28] <Twipply> I wrote the same thing using non-ECS methods and it took 1/10th of the time easily
[00:14:47] <mijowh> implementing an ecs properly does take a significant time
[00:14:48] <Twipply> Not to suggest that ECS sucks or is slow etc, the problem is me not knowing how to use it
[00:15:23] <R2robot> https://github.com/NatWeiss/EntityFu
[00:15:43] <mijowh> how can one write an ecs but not know how to use it?
[00:15:46] <mijowh> like, you wrote it
[00:15:59] <Twipply> I'm a special kind of special
[00:16:22] <mijowh> that sounds like you werent sure why you were implementing an ecs in the first place
[00:16:27] <mijowh> just doing it for the sake of doing it
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[00:16:43] <mijowh> which imo isnt a good enough reason
[00:16:43] <Twipply> I wanted to write a roguelike/roguelite and heard that ECS was the bestest
[00:16:53] <Twipply> and it just generally seemed cool when I read into it
[00:17:32] <Twipply> My special code is in here https://github.com/kz04px/ecs
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[00:17:57] <Twipply> All those templates and things just make me a sad panda
[00:18:08] <Twipply> And I've been told that my systems aren't very ECS-like
[00:18:15] <Prestige> I need to keep working on my game engine
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[00:18:21] <mijowh> i love templates
[00:18:25] <Prestige> hello rtypo
[00:18:28] <mijowh> i use them extensively, all over the place
[00:18:49] <Twipply> It's not that I dislike templates, I just get the feeling that I'm doing something fundamentally wrong
[00:19:54] <mijowh> you seem to put entities under the scope of a single system. i went a different direction myself
[00:20:16] <Twipply> R2robot that one looks a lot simpler/smaller than a lot that I've seen, thanks
[00:20:17] <mijowh> entities are in the scope of the overall scene, which may have several different systems operating on their own sets of components
[00:20:28] <mijowh> instead of each system having its own copy
[00:21:35] <mijowh> components are also just an int? thats interesting
[00:21:50] <rtypo> hi Prestige
[00:21:54] <Twipply> Not so
[00:22:00] <Twipply> I believe that's just for lookup stuff
[00:22:10] <mijowh> ah, thatd make sense
[00:22:11] <Twipply> It was a while ago when I did this, I started a new version today to try improve things
[00:22:17] <mijowh> this is just a glancing look keep in mind
[00:22:19] <mijowh> lol
[00:22:33] <mijowh> i dont really have time to really dig in
[00:22:44] <Twipply> I wouldn't expect you to, so that's fine
[00:22:50] <Twipply> although ofc I appreciate any advice/etc
[00:25:19] <mijowh> you never free the memory you allocate for systems
[00:25:33] <mijowh> or not that i see
[00:26:43] <Twipply> Don't recall
[00:26:56] <Twipply> Might not have done that 'cus the ECS lasts for the entire life of the program
[00:27:00] <Twipply> or maybe I'm just terrible
[00:27:10] <mijowh> still good practice to always have a matching delete for every new
[00:27:19] <mijowh> even though the OS will free it for you when your done
[00:27:23] <mijowh> dont rely on that
[00:27:28] <Twipply> Quite
[00:27:44] <Twipply> Harder to bother with those things when I'm getting brain destroyed by the ECS stuff anyway
[00:27:50] <mijowh> hehe understandable
[00:28:11] <mijowh> just use shared_ptr
[00:28:45] <Twipply> Yes senpai
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[00:49:07] <mijowh> Twipply: i wrote mine some time ago, and it still needs work ofc ( i even noticed a couple bugs while putting together this paste) but overall, this is what my ECS looks like https://pastebin.com/xmHU997K
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[00:50:23] <mijowh> only the templates are visible there. but it gets the idea across
[00:51:10] <mijowh> each component type is stored in a single vector under the scene, for cache locality while iterating over components
[00:51:21] <mijowh> entities/components are stored under a single global scene
[00:51:48] <mijowh> and systems are kinda entirely separately handled, but related
[00:52:16] <mijowh> one of my todos is to allow for multiple scene objects rather than a global shared one
[00:52:18] <mijowh> but vOv
[00:52:28] <Twipply> What did you use this for?
[00:52:51] <mijowh> im currently using it for my own little game project
[00:53:04] <Twipply> Any pictures?
[00:54:19] <mijowh> uno momento, i dont have much to show but ill put a quick scene together
[00:54:26] <mijowh> im still mainly working on engine stuff
[00:55:15] <Twipply> I want to write a game engine, I was following some tutorial series one youtube
[00:55:19] <Twipply> gotta wait for a new episode every week
[00:55:24] <Twipply> The guy is honestly slow as shit though
[00:55:36] <Twipply> 2 weeks ago it took him a 25 minute video to say that OpenGL is garbage but he's gonna use it anywa
[00:55:38] <Twipply> y
[00:55:51] <Twipply> This week's 27 minute video consisted of the same information but also "We're gonna write an API!"
[01:04:40] <o][o> get a decent book instead
[01:05:04] <o][o> most of these online tutorials suck balls
[01:05:23] <o][o> they just parasite the viewers to get more audience
[01:05:52] <Twipply> I read that one called Game Engine Architecture
[01:06:03] <Twipply> It talked a whole lot about stuff I knew and stuff I didn't know
[01:06:08] <Twipply> but the stuff I didn't know didn't remotely help
[01:06:16] <Twipply> Yeah, I know what a ring buffer is now, great
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[01:06:23] <Twipply> I still don't know how the hell to structure a game engine though
[01:07:31] <Twipply> I can use a union to find the next empty slot in an array for whatever object manager I have
[01:07:37] <Twipply> save some memory, great
[01:07:50] <Twipply> Still don't know how to architect an engine though
[01:08:02] <Twipply> or was it Game Engine Design
[01:08:05] <Twipply> Something like that
[01:09:00] <Twipply> If you have a good suggestion though o][o feel free to suggest it
[01:11:51] <mijowh> i really need to work on compile time
[01:11:53] <notchris> i just make web games
[01:11:55] <notchris> :
[01:11:56] <notchris> :X
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[01:14:25] <toxictype> Why does the graphic change when the viewport moves horizontally but not when moving vertically? https://pastebin.com/zqa2dhDq
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[01:26:20] <warweasle> Back to animating.
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[01:31:35] <pulse> i am angry
[01:31:38] <pulse> angry at elves
[01:31:44] <Prestige> ?
[01:31:47] <o][o> I will kill some for you
[01:31:51] * o][o is loading MTGA now
[01:32:39] <pulse> is it good
[01:32:57] <o][o> I like it
[01:33:09] <o][o> best thing done by WotC so far
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[01:33:30] <o][o> (softwarewise)
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[02:19:07] <toxictype> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xufgttiGF0A
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[02:30:45] <mijowh> depth test is broken >.<
[02:30:50] <mijowh> fml
[02:31:14] <mijowh> objects are being rendered in the opposite order they should be
[02:32:10] <mijowh> maybe i should just reverse FragDepth in shader
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[02:33:56] <Twipply> Is this for the thing you mentioned earlier mijowh?
[02:34:19] <mijowh> yeah i started putting a scene together on the client with several objects
[02:34:29] <mijowh> and noticed my rendering is a little funked
[02:34:54] <mijowh> i didnt notice before because i havent really touched graphics in a couple months, been focused on networking recently
[02:35:23] <mijowh> i do a little weird stuff with my perspective projection matrix
[02:35:30] <mijowh> to extend far plane to near infinity
[02:35:44] <mijowh> (goal is to render solar system scale, thats why)
[02:35:53] <mijowh> if i revert to standard projection matrix it renders fine
[02:35:56] <mijowh> but i cant see the sun
[02:35:59] <mijowh> :/
[02:36:19] <mijowh> its WELL beyond range of standard projection matrix clip plane
[02:38:07] <mijowh> i could just use glDepthRange, but that doesnt work on systems that are older than GL3 (like my laptop)
[02:38:57] <Twipply> I tried to do shadows once in OpenGl and almost cried
[02:38:59] <Twipply> so no help from me
[02:39:47] <mijowh> heh yeah i dont have shadows working either dont feel bad
[02:40:00] <mijowh> simple forward rendering
[02:40:07] <mijowh> single pass
[02:40:33] <Twipply> I'm unsure how to store components
[02:41:05] <mijowh> for me, each component type has its own vector where ALL components of that type in the scene are stored
[02:41:33] <mijowh> keeps them next to each other in memory so you dont get as many cache misses when iterating over the set of components
[02:41:41] <Twipply> I was thinking this, but then how to find an entity's component
[02:41:54] <Twipply> I could use std::pair but iterating seems slow
[02:41:59] <Twipply> So do I want something else too?
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[02:44:27] <mijowh> iterating probably is slow, but its a fairly common operation. like for rendering, you need to iterate over every renderer component in the scene every frame and issue drawing commands for each
[02:44:40] <mijowh> not sure how one would do it in a different way
[02:44:54] <mijowh> without complex batching
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[02:47:02] <Twipply> I meant for one entity in particular
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[02:48:13] <mijowh> ah yeah
[02:48:19] <mijowh> mine is very inefficient for that case
[02:48:28] <mijowh> i iterate because lazy coding there
[02:48:59] <Twipply> So do you have something like this? https://gist.githubusercontent.com/kz04px/9c9f71b7b5c13233c474758df5716cdb/raw/2e03e3142f4704a73596df3b6b63006ef8d2ca9d/thing.cpp
[02:50:57] <mijowh> close, but for me its more std::vector<T> components;
[02:51:11] <mijowh> not saying thats ideal
[02:51:43] <Twipply> Okay, so something I'm confused about
[02:51:48] <Twipply> Let's say I have some movement system
[02:51:58] <Twipply> it wants entities with position and velocity components
[02:52:04] <Twipply> position += velocity*dt;
[02:52:06] <Twipply> something like that
[02:52:09] <Twipply> That makes sense, right?
[02:52:46] <mijowh> yeah
[02:52:56] <mijowh> i only consider velocity when talking specifically about physics
[02:53:01] <Twipply> So how does my ECS prepare the relevant entities for it
[02:53:05] <mijowh> i have a "body" component i can add to an entity
[02:53:17] <Twipply> when the movement system goes ecs.entities_with(position, velocity)
[02:53:19] <mijowh> if the entity has a body, it is affected by gravity and forces and such
[02:53:23] <Twipply> What should it return?
[02:54:14] <Twipply> or maybe we just ignore entities and ask for pairs of components?
[02:54:25] <mijowh> https://pastebin.com/e6zmttDZ is my physics system
[02:54:27] <Twipply> probably not pairs though 'cus eventually a system will want 3+ components
[02:55:04] <mijowh> if the movement is performed outside of physics, then i can just do GetComponent<Transform>(entity)->Position(fooX, fooY, fooZ) to set position directly
[02:55:42] <mijowh> again, clearly not efficient
[02:55:47] <mijowh> but for now, it gets the job done
[02:57:39] <mijowh> its pretty much irrelevant in my case how many components a single system wants. systems are not directly linked to entity/component at all
[02:57:41] <Twipply> const double G =  6.674f * (10 ^ 11);
[02:57:43] <Twipply> Excuse me?
[02:57:48] <mijowh> thats for gravity
[02:58:12] <Twipply> Tell me what ^ is exactly
[02:58:54] <mijowh> thats not valid
[02:58:58] <mijowh> a typo
[02:59:03] <mijowh> thanks
[02:59:29] <Twipply> It's valid code so far as I can tell
[02:59:51] <Twipply> What do you think the typo is?
[03:00:43] <mijowh> nevermind
[03:00:57] <mijowh> but ^ in C++ is XOR
[03:01:09] <Twipply> That's what I was getting at, yes
[03:01:11] <mijowh> im not sure im calculating gravity right atm though
[03:01:19] <mijowh> but cba to go deep on that atm
[03:01:24] <Twipply> but you want power
[03:01:28] <mijowh> mhmm
[03:01:28] <Twipply> not xor
[03:02:09] <mijowh> yes i know, thats because in math ^ means power
[03:02:14] <mijowh> i copy pasted newtons equation
[03:02:18] <mijowh> and forgot to change that
[03:02:24] <mijowh> but it compiles because its valid XOR
[03:02:27] <mijowh> but logically, its invalid
[03:02:29] <mijowh> is what i meant
[03:03:01] <mijowh> typos happen vOv
[03:03:09] <mijowh> thanks for pointing it out, i may have not noticed
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[03:14:22] <warweasle> DONE!
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[03:14:45] <mijowh> http://i.imgur.com/LrXgfjp.png
[03:15:01] <mijowh> you can see the problem with depth ordering with that plane (which is only like half a meter below camera)
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[03:16:34] <mijowh> but thats sun moon and earth, to scale
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[03:18:07] <Twipply> Planets and stuff are cool
[03:18:11] <Twipply> I wanna see when it's un-broken
[03:18:15] <Twipply> https://github.com/NatWeiss/EntityFu/blob/master/main.cpp#L65
[03:18:19] <Twipply> This semi-decent example someone linked
[03:18:31] <Twipply> The one example it has of a system and it only gets entities with a single component
[03:18:36] <mijowh> things that are farther away are rendered in front atm, i can reverse depth range with glDepthRange(1.0,0.0) but that only works on newer gpus
[03:20:41] <Twipply> and I still don't know how to tell what entity a component belongs to
[03:20:54] <Twipply> Could just store it inside the component, but that seems kinda lame
[03:21:51] <mijowh> it would work though vOv
[03:22:50] <Twipply> Finding a different hobby would work too
[03:22:57] <mijowh> hah
[03:23:02] <mijowh> i suppose so
[03:23:53] <Twipply> And how would I get all the entities with position and velocity components then
[03:24:11] <Twipply> for each entity in position entities add to list if entity in component entities
[03:24:18] <Twipply> I'm gonna die of old age before that finishes running 120 times a second
[03:24:31] <Twipply> uhh, that last bit is velocity entities*
[03:28:19] <mijowh> i guess thatd depend on how many entities you have in a scene at one time
[03:29:04] <mijowh> but its a pretty bad complexity, certainly wont scale well
[03:29:05] <Twipply> Just the thought of doing that hurts me
[03:29:10] <mijowh> when you solve it, lmk
[03:31:16] <mijowh> atm i do it the naive way that doesnt scale well
[03:31:20] <mijowh> so i dont have a solution for you
[03:32:39] <Twipply> We should meet up once a day to discuss this until someone who knows what they're doing tells us the answers
[03:32:46] <mijowh> hehe
[03:33:07] <mijowh> well im in this chan pretty much every day anyway
[03:33:20] <mijowh> usually just lurking
[03:33:46] <mijowh> one of these days im going to have something nice to show off
[03:33:54] <mijowh> just keep coding ~ just keep coding ~
[03:34:46] <Twipply> Here's some trees for you https://i.imgur.com/daXPQrV.png
[03:35:30] <mijowh> noice
[03:35:42] <mijowh> im nowhere near working on vegetation and such lol
[03:36:44] <pulse> YAY TREES
[03:36:51] <pulse> :3  :3
[03:36:56] <mijowh> got some grass too
[03:37:03] <pulse> excellent
[03:37:58] <Twipply> I got trees for days https://i.imgur.com/dfGmomO.png
[03:38:25] <mijowh> those arent trees
[03:39:09] <Twipply> Tree density too high
[03:41:09] <mijowh> what are you doing with your terrain system? thought you were doing asteroids :P
[03:41:37] <Twipply> That was just some old junk
[03:42:21] <Twipply> the trees, that is
[03:51:23] <Twipply> What to do with these stores is something else I'm unsure about
[03:51:28] <Twipply> the one I showed code for before
[03:52:00] <Twipply> Nice if I could do this std::unordered_map<int, std::unique_ptr<Store>>
[03:52:06] <Twipply> Doesn't work though
[03:52:12] <Twipply> gotta use some base class and inherit from that
[03:52:17] <Twipply> and I think that's kinda gross
[03:52:19] <Prestige> I need to learn c++ some time
[03:52:39] <Twipply> Me too fam
[03:53:01] <Prestige> haha
[03:53:15] <Prestige> been doing nothing but typescript recently, getting tired of web dev
[03:53:49] <mijowh> i only really do c++
[03:54:27] <Twipply> I'm only into failure
[03:54:31] <Prestige> it's tempting to try out but I have so many projects atm
[03:54:53] <Twipply> I have 3 dozen project ideas and the skills required for none of them
[03:55:03] <mijowh> i have one project idea
[03:55:20] <mijowh> but its going to take me a couple more years realistically to get anywhere worthwhile
[03:55:25] <Prestige> Same haha
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[04:10:14] <mijowh> this is my current progress : http://i.imgur.com/Pbj0EXI.png
[04:10:20] <mijowh> not much going on
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[04:12:09] <Prestige> What are you working on mijowh ?
[04:12:40] <mijowh> the solar system
[04:13:04] <mijowh> to scale
[04:13:18] <Prestige> Flight sim at the end?
[04:14:51] <mijowh> not specifically. i want to be able to walk around on the surface
[04:15:07] <mijowh> a tall order, im aware
[04:15:50] <Prestige> If it's to scale, then yeah haha
[04:15:57] <mijowh> atm the highest resolution of planetary chunks (triangular prisms) can get to about 20km
[04:16:02] <mijowh> y;know, because memory vOv
[04:16:26] <Twipply> I read this thing a million years ago about how the accuracy of a float was good for a cm on earth or something
[04:16:32] <Twipply> but like 3 meters once you get to Neptune
[04:16:38] <Twipply> Numbers subject to change
[04:16:42] <mijowh> the planets themselves are icosahedrons that are subdivided, each of the 20 chunks is extruded into a prism which i construct an octree in
[04:16:57] <mijowh> its voxelized, and modiifiable
[04:17:12] <mijowh> but the resolution/memory issue is the limiting factor there
[04:17:22] <Twipply> Add some asteroids and you can make my trash program obsolete
[04:17:40] <mijowh> i cant get the prisms smaller than about 20km a side while maintaining real-time
[04:17:48] <mijowh> its just too much
[04:18:03] <Twipply> LOD?
[04:18:23] <mijowh> not yet implemented, the entire planet is at the same resolution
[04:18:35] <Twipply> What about the background planets?
[04:18:38] <mijowh> but its already implemented that i can divide chunks further
[04:18:42] <mijowh> them too, same deal
[04:18:52] <Twipply> I see
[04:19:05] <mijowh> although the sun and moon have a max depth of one, im not concerned about those
[04:19:18] <mijowh> the earth i can divide about 7 times the entire planet
[04:19:20] <Twipply> Guess you should work on speeding things up then if that's an issue
[04:19:27] <mijowh> if i implement lod i can probably really get deeper
[04:19:52] <Twipply> This is as close as I ever got https://i.imgur.com/Kmlh5co.png
[04:19:54] <Twipply> and it wasn't close at all
[04:20:19] <Prestige> you guys are working on some next level shit
[04:20:21] <Prestige> lol
[04:20:27] <mijowh> im a couple years into it
[04:20:40] <Twipply> I don't know a god damn thing I assure you
[04:20:44] <Twipply> That isn't modesty speaking either
[04:21:23] <Prestige> I'm just working on a small 2d game engine in typescript
[04:21:27] <mijowh> i kinda want to build minecraft/dwarf fortress but in a solar system with spherical planets
[04:21:29] <mijowh> is the vision
[04:21:30] <Prestige> getting hung up on variable names
[04:21:35] <mijowh> i doubt ill ever get there though
[04:21:39] <mijowh> but its fun to progress
[04:22:20] <mijowh> ive been working on entworking the past month or so
[04:22:28] <mijowh> i want to offload physics/voxel updates onto the server
[04:22:35] <mijowh> and jsut have results propogated to clients
[04:22:49] <mijowh> thats not done yet though
[04:23:20] <o][o> s p l u r t
[04:23:26] <mijowh> the planets your seeing in screenshot are entirely client-sided
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[04:25:07] <Prestige> I think I've decided to not work on multiplayer games for a long while
[04:25:21] <Prestige> had a good project going that bit the dust because of networking issues
[04:25:23] <o][o> multiplayah is tah best
[04:25:38] <o][o> what issues?
[04:26:00] <Prestige> Client prediction, the local player would appear to shake because the server would correct the client position
[04:26:06] <Prestige> could never get the logic down
[04:26:08] <mijowh> http://i.imgur.com/zognf8v.png
[04:26:24] <Prestige> that's pretty neat looking
[04:26:30] <mijowh> i turned wireframe on
[04:26:51] <mijowh> things are a bit funky atm
[04:26:57] <mijowh> work in progress
[04:27:18] <Prestige> o][o: how's your night going?
[04:28:13] <mijowh> the smaller triangles you see in screenie are actually inside the planet
[04:28:19] <mijowh> outer layer is entirely large squares
[04:28:24] <mijowh> i just have a depth sorting issue atm
[04:28:31] <mijowh> so the inside is peeking through
[04:28:53] <mijowh> thats a graphics issue, not an issue with the voxelizing itself
[04:29:48] <mijowh> looks kinda cool
[04:31:29] <o][o> prediction is hard
[04:31:31] <mijowh> http://i.imgur.com/xKabeR4.png sun peeking through the earth lmao
[04:31:42] <mijowh> so bad
[04:32:07] <mijowh> depth sorting with infinite far plane is hard
[04:32:14] <mijowh> but yeah so is prediction
[04:32:48] <mijowh> atm i dont do any prediction at all, server entirely dictates state
[04:34:04] <mijowh> i just send the clients inputs over and the server tells the client what changed
[04:34:45] <notchris> look guys i made a thing :D
[04:34:47] <notchris> https://notchris.net/3d/space/
[04:34:58] <notchris> performance isnt great, working on it
[04:35:20] <mijowh> weee
[04:35:31] <notchris> :D
[04:36:32] <mijowh> destroy the earth!
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[04:37:23] <mijowh> i love how the cursor casts a shadow
[04:37:24] <mijowh> nice touch
[04:37:56] <notchris> haha ty
[04:39:03] <mijowh> space stuff is fun
[04:40:42] <Prestige> that's awesome notchris
[04:41:08] <notchris> thank you!
[04:41:14] <notchris> javascript 8)
[04:41:54] <Prestige> using any engine?
[04:43:16] <notchris> Yea! three.js
[04:43:23] <notchris> for the render
[04:43:32] <notchris> the physics are 2d physics using matter.js
[04:43:47] <notchris> i wrote a small container for matter to render to threejs
[04:44:29] <Prestige> I'll probably use a physics framework for my 2d engine im writing
[04:45:07] <toxictype> Does anyone have a 3D model of a chungus?
[04:45:11] <toxictype> I need it for my game
[04:45:15] <mijowh> tf is a chungus?
[04:45:26] <Twipply> I was thinking for your gravity thing that you might do slightly better calculating r^2
[04:45:29] <toxictype> I don't know but I need a 3D model.
[04:45:40] <Twipply> Right now I imagine that .length() has an expensive sqrt in it
[04:45:45] <Twipply> and you're only squaring it again anyway
[04:46:38] <Twipply> Also, I didn't see how you're doing it all exactly, but is it every planet acting on the object in question?
[04:46:42] <Twipply> and on each other?
[04:46:42] <mijowh> ah, how r = dist.length() and than i square r?
[04:46:46] <Twipply> Maybe the planets could go on rails
[04:46:46] <mijowh> and yes they are
[04:46:54] <mijowh> no, true gravity
[04:46:55] <Twipply> and you could use patched conics
[04:47:30] <Twipply> You say true, but F=GMm/r^2 isn't going to cut it either
[04:47:41] <mijowh> the mass is calculated based on the volume of the voxels of the planet too. if players theoretically dug enough stuff up they could change the orbit :P
[04:47:49] <mijowh> good luck doing that
[04:48:01] <Twipply> Can you remove mass from the planet entirely?
[04:48:18] <mijowh> no, the core area (the smaller circle inside you can kinda see) cant be modified
[04:48:28] <mijowh> you could dig down to the core, but not touch the core itself
[04:48:41] <mijowh> which has a base mass value
[04:49:27] <mijowh> im trying to make it as dynamic/emergent as possible
[04:49:33] <mijowh> nothing should really be "static"
[04:50:05] <mijowh> but yeah i def need to revisit my gravity calculations
[04:50:20] <mijowh> that i literally threw together in a few minutes just so i could start seeing some movement
[04:50:46] <mijowh> also, collisions are not handled in any cool way. planets will just bounce off each other if they ended up contacting
[04:56:43] <mijowh> im kinda just winging it vOv
[04:56:59] <mijowh> i think ive got some neat ideas going though
[04:57:04] <mijowh> we'll see
[04:59:36] <mijowh> i might just be crazy
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[05:21:44] <mijowh> bah i have class in the morning. spring break is over :/
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[06:30:58] <toxictype> ERROR::ASSIMP:: No suitable reader found for the file format of file "models/chungus.fbx".
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[06:36:32] <toxictype> ASSIMP crashes. Can anyone help?
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[07:01:18] <mijowh> it doesnt know what a chungus is either
[07:13:15] <immibis> sounds more like it doesn't know how to read fbx files
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[09:29:08] <kernel-sanders> they should make this for more stuff so even I can make art: https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/18/nvidia-ai-turns-sketches-into-photorealistic-landscapes-in-seconds/
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[09:30:37] <jprajzne> the real advantage is it can do style transfers :)
[09:32:03] <NiniGeo2> Eh I feel like NVidia has been doin' the same things with neural networks that people have been doin' without them for years now :P
[09:33:01] <NiniGeo2> Like image quilting (2001) : https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Research/Projects/CS/vision/papers/efros-siggraph01.pdf or GraphCut (2003) : https://www.cc.gatech.edu/~turk/my_papers/graph_cuts.pdf
[09:33:07] <brainzap2> are graphics cards overrated?
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[09:33:31] <NiniGeo2> I suspect that NVidia is pushing this tech because they think it can sell GPU's :P
[09:34:11] <DarkUranium> NiniGeo2, I definitely feel like we're going the wrong way with embedded neural networks and RTX and all that.
[09:34:17] <DarkUranium> It's as if we're moving back to fixed-function.
[09:34:35] <NiniGeo2> But what else can you justify spending a ton of FLOPS on? D:
[09:34:42] <kernel-sanders> really? I thought this was quite impressive
[09:35:11] <kernel-sanders> it's not just slapping some textures on some colors it's more fluid than that
[09:36:14] <DarkUranium> I think a builtin FPGA into the GPU (specialized for floating-point, with float-wide data busses and lots of builtin ALUs) would be far more interesting, for example.
[09:36:17] <DarkUranium> And it could do all of that.
[09:37:12] <NiniGeo2> Mmhmm, I do think that integrating FPGAs and GPUs together is a cool route that the technology could potentnially move in the future.
[09:37:12] <brainzap2> I think you should just buy a FPGA
[09:37:52] <kernel-sanders> but that's just hardware
[09:38:21] <kernel-sanders> apples and pears imo
[09:39:34] <kernel-sanders> the absolute best would be to combine CPU GPU and FPGA and have an abstraction layer that chooses the best options
[09:40:40] <jprajzne> sounds like branch prediction of sorts
[09:40:40] <NiniGeo2> Something like that probably already exists in like ISPC or HLSL.
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[10:00:26] <immibis> have fun with that abstraction layer
[10:01:19] <immibis> maybe massive SIMD is better at keeping all the ALUs occupied
[10:01:51] <immibis> or maybe not. the FPGA approach doesn't need as much memory, but it needs routing logic
[10:02:56] <NiniGeo2> I think that access to memory is super important for all three, the CPU, the GPU, and the FPGA scenarios.
[10:03:51] <immibis> registers specifically
[10:05:14] <DarkUranium> immibis, I did't mean replacing the general cores with FPGA.
[10:05:25] <DarkUranium> immibis, I meant replacing RTX, AI, and all the other domain-specific stuff they've been shoving in.
[10:05:44] <immibis> well the point of domain specific hardware is it's faster than software
[10:05:50] <immibis> or compared to an FPGA, smaller
[10:07:33] <immibis> people use GPUs on a massive scale for AI - probably not most people, but I bet Google has a ton
[10:07:56] <immibis> well obviously not most people
[10:09:26] <DarkUranium> immibis, I get it. I'm just saying it's bizzaire that we're moving away from a programmable pipeline towards fixed-function again, for this sort of stuff.
[10:09:48] <immibis> why is it bizarre?
[10:12:17] <immibis> the problem with dedicated hardware is you have to have special hardware per task; the problem with generic hardware is it's slower. if someone wants 20 million units of something and they know it well in advance, dedicated hardware might be cheaper
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[10:12:50] <immibis> that's why cisco makes their own chips and my company uses FPGAs
[10:13:26] <immibis> (isn't it fun being right in hindsight?)
[10:13:41] <kernel-sanders> also aren't FPGAs programmable? it's the best of 2 worlds
[10:14:19] <NiniGeo2> Yes, the "P" in FPGA stands for "programmable".
[10:15:19] <R2robot> too generic. slow and not as power efficient as purpose built circuitry
[10:15:26] <NiniGeo2> You might be getting some of your wish DarkUranium, if enough people adopt mesh shaders.
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[10:16:02] <DarkUranium> NiniGeo2, huh.
[10:16:10] <DarkUranium> NiniGeo2, but Vulkan already removed e.g. geometry shaders entirely.
[10:16:15] <DarkUranium> The idea being to use compute instead.
[10:16:26] <DarkUranium> Couldn't compute do mesh generation?
[10:17:10] <DarkUranium> Or am I missing something?
[10:17:43] <NiniGeo2> Oh I don't mean that.
[10:17:44] <NiniGeo2> I mean this: https://devblogs.nvidia.com/introduction-turing-mesh-shaders/
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[10:24:36] <NiniGeo2> I also do see the formalization of vertex attribute interpolation being moved into pixel/fragment shaders eventually. It's basically what all of the drivers do right now anyway automatically, but the API's just have no way to pass the pixel shaders barycentric coordinates from the rasterizer unit.
[10:26:25] <NiniGeo2> I also hope that one day we'll also get to have full shader access to all of the fast data-type conversions that are already present in the early stages of the vertex pipeline, and when other shaders read data from textures and buffers, as it seems silly to emulate that in software or to keep it fully out of shaders as fixed-function units forever.
[10:30:06] <DarkUranium> NiniGeo2, you can indirectly get the barycentric coordinates.
[10:30:56] <DarkUranium> Honestly, what I'd like to see is sort of a "pipeline shader" ... programmable scheduler.
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[10:31:47] <NiniGeo2> I hear some people talking about that sort of stuff. Some groups of people want to have full dependency graphs that run on the GPU in graph order and assign work that way.
[10:34:34] <DarkUranium> That's basically what OpenCL does.
[10:34:53] <DarkUranium> Works well there. The GPU does have hardware rasterization units (at least AFAIK), which does add complexity here.
[10:35:25] <DarkUranium> (you'd need a way to specify "okay, rasterize with this data being vertex data, this data being interpolated data, and issue this shader on the result")
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[10:36:32] <DarkUranium> AFAIK Intel tried something like that with Larabee, but they chose x86 as the base instruction set, which worked as well as you might imagine.
[10:38:08] <NiniGeo2> Well you can have the rasterizer exist as a fixed-function block with a dependency on (your vertex shaders have to be done running) and the pixel/fragment shaders have a dependency on the rasterizer being done.
[10:40:05] <DarkUranium> You're reintroducing the concept of a vertex shader :P
[10:40:15] <DarkUranium> That's why I described it as a fixed-function block with *data* inputs/outputs.
[10:40:48] <NiniGeo2> When did vertex shaders go away as a concept? :o
[10:40:53] <NiniGeo2> W-what year is this? :o
[10:41:08] <DarkUranium> Int he hypothetical device with a programmable pipeline, there would be no vertex shader at the API level.
[10:41:21] <DarkUranium> Of course, there would still be such a thing at the higher, conceptual level.
[10:42:16] <DarkUranium> What I mean with a fixed-function block with data I/O ... some data goes in (some is interepreted as position data, other is going to be interpolated; non-interpolated [e.g. GLSL `flat` qualifier] doesn't even need to interact with this, except to pick the "master" fragment), some data goes out.
[10:42:43] <DarkUranium> At the API level, it's just data. But typically, the input is interpreted as position+varyings, whereas output would be fragment data.
[10:43:33] <DarkUranium> A more realistic approach that still keeps most of the flexibility would be to have 3 pipelines.
[10:43:39] <DarkUranium> compute, pre-raster, and post-raster.
[10:43:46] <NiniGeo2> Isn't that largely how things already do work after Shader Model 4 introduced a unified shading model?
[10:43:59] <DarkUranium> Not really, you still have all sorts of shader types.
[10:44:15] <DarkUranium> In fact, you have more than ever: compute, vertex, fragment, geometry (merged into compute at last), tesselation.
[10:44:21] <DarkUranium> (tesselation is split into 2)
[10:44:47] <DarkUranium> Anyhow, in my model, compute & pre-raster are the exact same thing. The only difference is that the compute wouldn't auto-execute rasterization.
[10:45:20] <DarkUranium> so it's more like a tree: '((compute) (rasterization (pre-raster) (post-raster)))
[10:45:58] <DarkUranium> The idea being that geometry+vertex+tesselation would be the same exact shader, even at the API level (but with a custom parallelism, which would do the whole geometry vs vertex vs tesselation thing indirectly)
[10:46:33] <DarkUranium> And you could chain arbitrary amounts of them. vertex+tess_ctrl+tess_eval is typical, but vertex+vertex+vertex would technically be doable.
[10:46:42] <DarkUranium> Post-raster would be arbitrary amounts of fragmentation shaders.
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[10:48:00] <DarkUranium> At the API level, the last pre-raster and first post-raster need to have some predetermined outputs/inputs (to some extent also first pre-raster [i.e. vertex binding and such] and last post-raster [i.e. texture writes]).
[10:48:08] <DarkUranium> Anything in between wouldn't really matter.
[10:48:16] <NiniGeo2> What's the benefit of doing things that way vs. the current way? Greater generalism and flexibility?
[10:50:03] <DarkUranium> Yeah. If done properly, "mesh shaders" would be a programmer's invention, rather than a vendor extension.
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[10:50:15] <DarkUranium> (so, vendor-independent)
[10:51:45] <NiniGeo2> I guess that the reason we don't currently do things that way is because using these specialized shaders that work in specialized ways is more efficient. The GPU is better able to schedule work and direct memory access when it knows what your shaders are going to be doing at every step of the way.
[10:52:01] <DarkUranium> NiniGeo2, also, you could reduce the number of draw calls for postprocessing and such.
[10:54:17] <NiniGeo2> I think that draw calls are mostly an issue during the "main scene" rendering portion of a frame, and that the chief performance issues in postprocessing are bandwidth consumption and fill rate, but yes I could see that this scheme could reduce draw call counts in postprocessing.
[10:54:48] <DarkUranium> It'd help tiling renderers and such too, I'm pretty sure.
[10:54:59] <DarkUranium> In fact, I remember a document about a vendor extension that did something similar for fragment shaders.
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[10:57:37] <NiniGeo2> Yeah I could see like a "tile shader" being used for tiled renderers being useful.
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[11:00:39] <DarkUranium> NiniGeo2, it wasn't tiling, it was some sort of per-tile storage to reduce overhead of postprocessing (IIRC). In my model, this would be completely equal to chaining fragment shaders.
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[11:08:04] <NiniGeo2> Goodnight DarkUranium, it was nice chatting with you tonight :]
[11:09:01] <DarkUranium> night!
[11:09:12] <NiniGeo2> :)
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[11:14:27] <toxictype> I can't figure out why glVertex2f works but glVertex3f doesn't.
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[14:19:41] <warweasle> Hi, I did gamedev last night.
[14:19:53] <notchris> nice mee too
[14:23:54] <notchris> :D
[14:24:00] <notchris> warweasle: any progress?
[14:26:50] <warweasle> notchris: Yes! I made a walking animation with a baseball bat.
[14:26:59] <notchris> Yay!
[14:27:02] <notchris> in blender?
[14:27:53] <warweasle> Yes. https://youtu.be/5q9u-oFBd50
[14:28:07] <notchris> yooo!
[14:28:09] <notchris> It looks great
[14:28:39] <notchris> I made this last night https://notchris.net/3d/space
[14:28:42] <jprajzne> warweasle: that's going somewhere :)
[14:29:15] <warweasle> jprajzne: Actually, without root motion...he's going no-where.
[14:29:21] <warweasle> :)
[14:29:36] <warweasle> But it exports to unreal perfectly.
[14:29:42] <jprajzne> warweasle: his movement looks natural :)
[14:30:07] <warweasle> jprajzne: I started with an existing walk cycle. I modified it for the bat.
[14:30:31] <jprajzne> ah, sweet :)
[14:33:06] <warweasle> I spent most of last night learning blender's NLA editor so I can splice and layer animation actions. So I can take a walk cycle, add a bat grip, then layer the bat specific movements.
[14:34:09] <brainzap> nice so you can beat people
[14:34:38] <warweasle> Yes. Beating people is an integral part of my game.
[14:36:01] <jprajzne> finally someone's got the right idea to avoid beating minors (demons) and starting beating the real evil - humans :))
[14:39:42] <warweasle> Core gameplay mechanics: violence, clothing, boob physics.
[14:40:24] <notchris> anime girls
[14:41:07] <warweasle> No, because anime would limit my audience. There are people who would refuse to play it because "huge eyes", even if it is easier to create the characters.
[14:41:16] <notchris> UWU
[14:41:43] <warweasle> UWU?
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[14:42:35] <jprajzne> warweasle: :)) btw that gothic is also sort of limiting
[14:43:20] <warweasle> That's why I added punk.
[14:43:48] <warweasle> My target demographic is: People who think librarians are hot.
[14:43:56] <jprajzne> :))
[14:44:01] <jprajzne> ok :)
[14:44:33] <warweasle> I'm remaking a cult classic. I can't mess with the basics.
[14:44:43] <jprajzne> steampunk vs gothic punk mixed with normies/shy? :)
[14:44:46] <jprajzne> oh, sorry :)
[14:45:39] <notchris> oo librarians
[14:45:45] <notchris> with turtlenecks
[14:45:53] <warweasle> Not any Steampunk. But I have an idea for making Girl Genius into a game.
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[14:48:54] <BrahRah> what format would you guys use to parse into and 3d array? I'm thinking of creating maps via a list, textfile or maybe there is something I dont know yet.
[14:50:05] <DaScoot> just a csv maybe? xml or json if you want to be a little fancier
[14:51:20] <warweasle> s-expressions.
[14:53:48] <BrahRah> Im not sure yet it's more like connected roads and a lot of empty space
[14:55:23] <BrahRah> Im still thinking what would be best to populate the array
[14:55:26] <wedr> I think we need to help out The Khronos Group on this problem.   https://github.com/KhronosGroup/OpenGL-Registry/issues/256
[14:55:31] <wedr> The Khronos Group officially cannot verify if the wgl headers they hosted on the OpenGL Registry is actually working or not.
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[14:57:37] <toxictype> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIUMZEK5Bk
[14:57:37] <toxictype> Can someone tell me why this happens?
[14:57:37] <toxictype> https://wandbox.org/permlink/VcarA20oFjRV5QNt
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[14:59:40] <wedr> toxictype: You're asking so many XY problems, we couldn't help you on your issue. Try to isolate the issue down to just below 8 lines of code.
[15:00:27] <toxictype> It cannot be done you're going to ask questions
[15:00:37] <toxictype> https://wandbox.org/permlink/jhleOddDZ4sDGAns
[15:00:41] <toxictype> Here's all the relevant code.
[15:01:54] <wedr> Those are not relevant code. I have no idea what some of them are. At this point, I feel it's your game logic code that's not working as you think they are, and it's outside of anyone's guesses as to what the main cause it could be.
[15:03:07] <toxictype> That is the relevant code.
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[15:04:32] <wedr> toxictype: Too many missing relevant data.
[15:04:41] <toxictype> Such as?
[15:07:48] <gogoprog> what is the bug?
[15:08:01] <wedr> That's the missing relevant data
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[15:08:11] <wedr> We don't know what toxictype is pointing out.
[15:08:48] <wedr> And from the video, there's so much going on to assume which one they could be. (Even if it's just tiny...)
[15:08:54] <toxictype> The answer was if (length <= MaxVelocity * dt)
[15:11:32] <gogoprog> so we have the answer
[15:11:34] <gogoprog> and not the question
[15:11:51] <gogoprog> is this some kind of hitchhiker guide of the galaxy situation?
[15:12:10] <toxictype> The question was why the fireballs didn't disappear when they reached their destination.
[15:13:43] <wedr> ...Finally, a question.
[15:14:36] <wedr> toxictype: Basically, the way you handle the std::array (or std::list, I don't know) is wrong. If I recalled, in C++, you shouldn't manipulate the std::array/std::list inside a for loop.
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[15:14:42] <wedr> But I could be totally wrong.
[15:15:39] <brainzap> you should not manipulate the thing you are iterating
[15:16:47] <wedr> Then I'm right.
[15:16:53] <wedr> toxictype: There is your answer.
[15:17:17] <gogoprog> but he's not manipulating the array/list
[15:17:45] <gogoprog> oh th epush back
[15:17:49] <wedr> gogoprog: There's a "delete" call
[15:17:51] <gogoprog> no
[15:17:59] <gogoprog> I onfirm he is not manipulating
[15:18:15] <wedr> I thought the "delete" call is the one affecting the iterating list.
[15:18:16] <gogoprog> he is deleting the object
[15:18:23] <wedr> ah
[15:18:25] <gogoprog> not altering the array itself
[15:19:11] <gogoprog> whatever, problem solved
[15:19:13] <gogoprog> !next
[15:19:23] <wedr> I doubt there's a !next command here
[15:19:31] <wedr> but whatever
[15:19:37] <gogoprog> but you get the intent
[15:20:44] <brainzap> not gonna lie, I had to work on ugly code today, it was mine
[15:23:28] <pulse> https://www.ecosia.org/
[15:23:32] <pulse> plant trees while you search nao
[15:26:03] <wedr> has no bearings with The Khronos Group
[15:28:17] <gogoprog> if you're at the gdc
[15:28:22] <gogoprog> come say hello at my booth
[15:29:28] <gogoprog> I won't be there so no pressure
[15:31:34] <notchris> I was looking at some dif engines
[15:31:37] <notchris> Cry Engine looked cool
[15:36:03] <wedr> gogoprog: I can't pay that entrance down payment.
[15:37:15] <gogoprog> yes that's expensive
[15:38:52] <wedr> gogoprog: Yeah, and just to pay for a total of 5 booth, it's enough to pay off 1-year mortgage payment. 35 booths = full mortgage payment.
[15:39:32] <wedr> I wished companies can subsidize GDC booths to help pay off mortgage fees, so that GDC is actually worth attending.
[15:39:33] <wedr> :D
[15:39:43] <gogoprog> ;)
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[16:04:00] <warweasle> I wonder if anyone would play a third person melee/shooter roguelike. Something between Ninja Gaiden and Max Payne.
[16:04:29] <warweasle> Goes in my idea pile...
[16:05:09] <DaScoot> roguelikes frustrate me
[16:05:17] <DaScoot> as a compulsive game saver
[16:06:04] <warweasle> I hate the interface. "What key is drink? Oh, 'quaff' is q."
[16:06:09] <kernel-sanders> I'd play a halo / dark souls mixup
[16:08:24] <Prestige> so dark souls with guns?
[16:09:17] <kernel-sanders> hmm I've heard that before somewhere
[16:12:13] <wedr> quaff?
[16:12:24] <wedr> new English Oxford word
[16:13:34] <DaScoot> new? I always figured it was like olde english
[16:14:01] <wedr> new old Oxford English
[16:14:06] <R2robot> ancient word
[16:14:29] <wedr> ancient new old Oxford English
[16:17:28] <LastTalon> Grog?
[16:20:22] <R2robot> quaff a mug of grog
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[16:27:22] <LastTalon> Flagon
[16:27:58] <R2robot> of ale
[16:28:06] * wedr sees usage is skyrocketing up. Prepares patent in advance.
[16:28:22] <LastTalon> Patents? D:<
[16:28:36] <wedr> Nothing wrong with patents for English words
[16:29:02] <R2robot> but aren't most english words borrowed from other languages?
[16:29:12] <R2robot> patent violation!
[16:29:19] <wedr> We can patent them. We just can't make money off since it's public domain.
[16:29:43] <R2robot> then you can't patent it
[16:29:53] <wedr> and no, it's not about registering the word. It's about patenting the history of the created word
[16:30:10] <R2robot> 'prior art' invalidates a patent
[16:30:19] <wedr> Is history prior art?
[16:30:23] <R2robot> yes
[16:30:26] * wedr hmms
[16:30:31] <brainzap> soon hitler
[16:31:02] <wedr> My name's not Hitler, unfortunately.
[16:31:08] <LastTalon> You can't patent words or phrases.
[16:31:17] <LastTalon> That's what copyright and trademark are for.
[16:31:24] <R2robot> ^
[16:31:40] <wedr> so inventions of words can't be patented.
[16:31:41] <wedr> I see
[16:31:42] <notchris> Im gonna go eat an Apple ©
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[16:31:53] <notchris> hmmm
[16:31:56] * notchris shrugs
[16:32:00] <LastTalon> Only certain types of invention are patentable.
[16:32:05] <notchris> Like fruits
[16:32:05] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, in theory.
[16:32:07] <wedr> notchris: Are you literally eating out Mr. Tim?
[16:32:09] <R2robot> notchris: and they've battled with other Apple tradmarks
[16:32:10] <wedr> :O
[16:32:13] <DarkUranium> as a tim ... eww.
[16:32:14] <notchris> his name is Mr. Apple iirc
[16:32:25] <wedr> (̂= ͡° ᴥ ͡°̂=)
[16:32:29] <notchris> UWU
[16:32:36] <DarkUranium> Look, I know I said I'm looking for devs, but no need for *literal* ass-kissing!
[16:32:48] <LastTalon> Its no different than only being able to copyright or trademark certain types of work.
[16:32:56] <wedr> Who says ass-kissing here? I'm just a cat that's heavily breathing.
[16:32:57] <LastTalon> You can't trademark a number for instance.
[16:33:00] <R2robot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer
[16:33:11] <notchris> ooo wedr we meet again
[16:33:16] <notchris> DarkUranium: im a dev
[16:33:21] <DarkUranium> notchris, I know :P
[16:33:25] <DarkUranium> we talked the other day, remember?
[16:33:27] <wedr> notchris: How dare you just found this out!  >:(
[16:33:27] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, can you copyright it?
[16:33:30] <notchris> Oh i remember
[16:33:38] <notchris> muahaha
[16:33:41] <DarkUranium> pepperidge farm remembers
[16:34:02] <notchris> :O
[16:34:13] <LastTalon> DarkUranium, well technically copyright is a charge you bring against somebody and I'm not sure the case has come up.
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[16:34:46] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, I'm asking because you can encode any program as a single number :P
[16:34:51] <LastTalon> But typically copyright does not apply to short phrases.
[16:34:51] <DarkUranium> Copyright law is silly anyhow.
[16:34:58] <DarkUranium> You can't copyright an algorithm, but you can copyright a program.
[16:35:11] <LastTalon> So if you mean like copyrighting the number "one hundred" then no
[16:35:25] <notchris> 711
[16:35:35] <DarkUranium> (w.r.t. encoding anything as a single number, arithmetic coding takes advantage of that)
[16:35:36] <LastTalon> Or 386. :P
[16:35:38] <wedr> I can copyright "var one = 'hundred';" since it's a program.
[16:35:49] <R2robot> are you guys old enough to remember the dvd encryption break?  The key was printed on shirts, etc
[16:35:59] <notchris> let one = 'hundred' ***
[16:36:02] <wedr> no, I'm just 4 at the time
[16:36:05] <LastTalon> wedr, like I said, short phrases may not be applicable.
[16:36:13] <wedr> yeah, ok
[16:36:17] <LastTalon> You can attempt to claim copyright on it, but the court may disagree with you.
[16:36:18] <notchris> u function scoped
[16:36:21] <notchris> :X
[16:36:40] <LastTalon> Copyright basically means nothing if you aren't going to go to court over it anyway.
[16:37:04] <wedr> yeah, GDC mortgage down payments can cover a lawsuit pretty nicely
[16:37:07] <wedr> with change
[16:37:24] <R2robot> cease and desists letters are usually all that's needed to enforce your copyright
[16:37:33] <R2robot> desist*
[16:37:47] <LastTalon> Yeah, but really anything short of going to court is just asking them pretty please.
[16:37:58] <R2robot> basically..
[16:37:59] <LastTalon> But no one likes getting C&D letters
[16:38:06] <R2robot> but fear of lawyers fees is very powerful
[16:38:18] <DarkUranium> <LastTalon> Copyright basically means nothing if you aren't going to go to court over it anyway.
[16:38:25] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, GPL proponents could learn a lesson from there :P
[16:38:31] <DarkUranium> I've noticed lots and lots of magical thinking among them.
[16:38:31] <LastTalon> Well if you have a legitimate case going to court is probably worth it.
[16:38:43] <LastTalon> DarkUranium, yeah, the GPL is basically a giant bluff.
[16:38:43] <R2robot> depends...
[16:38:47] <LastTalon> :P
[16:38:53] <LastTalon> I mean most free licenses are.
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[16:39:06] <R2robot> most of it works on the 'honor system'
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[16:39:14] <LastTalon> I mean am I really going to go to court because someone used something I licensed with zlib and didn't provide attribution?
[16:39:31] <LastTalon> I don't think so
[16:39:31] <R2robot> china be like.. FUCK.YOUR.COPYRIGHTS! Muwahahahahahhaa
[16:39:37] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, yes. Seize their assets! Divide them among the proletariat!
[16:39:43] <LastTalon> Lol
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[16:40:38] <wedr> In Tropico 6, I can abuse the proletariats as much as I want. I wished that's real life.
[16:40:42] <LastTalon> You know, people say the problem is with copyright...
[16:40:46] <LastTalon> And there is truth to that.
[16:40:53] <LastTalon> But that's not the big problem in the system here.
[16:41:06] <wedr> Needs more abuse to make the problem more apparent to the public.
[16:41:09] <LastTalon> The big problem in the system is that trial is the way civil disputes are resolved.
[16:41:11] <R2robot> https://creativecommons.org/
[16:41:22] <LastTalon> And no one wants to go to trial. Its expensive and time consuming.
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[16:41:43] <LastTalon> That's half the reason we don't know what would happen over a lot of copyright issues.
[16:41:51] <LastTalon> Because no one has ever tried it in court.
[16:42:02] <DarkUranium> R2robot, CC are assholes.
[16:42:08] <R2robot> hahahaha
[16:42:10] <DarkUranium> (sorry, but they are)
[16:42:13] <R2robot> how so?
[16:42:33] <DarkUranium> For a long while --- and I know that for a fact (I was in the mailing list when this was being discussed) --- they intentionally hid the DRM clause from authors.
[16:42:38] <LastTalon> CC always seemed to have a strange attitude on copyright imo.
[16:42:49] <DarkUranium> People were arguing for inclusion of it on the website, but the counter-argument was "but then nobody will use our licenses! Better not mention it."
[16:42:59] <DarkUranium> I.e. they were *intentionally* hiding clauses in the license from the authors.
[16:43:00] <R2robot> wut
[16:43:23] <DarkUranium> They finally caved in at some point, making what amounts to a footnote. But for a loooong while, they actively hid that.
[16:43:33] <DarkUranium> Don't get me wrong, I'm strongly against DRM.
[16:43:51] <DarkUranium> But I'm also strongly against deceiving authors on license terms, for a license they're about to choose.
[16:43:59] <LastTalon> We need better words.
[16:44:22] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, we need law based in provable logic ;)
[16:44:25] <R2robot> none of what you're saying makes any sense. there is zero context. lol
[16:44:38] <DarkUranium> R2robot, I take it you're not aware of the DRM clause of CC licenses?
[16:44:53] <R2robot> apparently not
[16:45:03] <DarkUranium> R2robot, it basically says that you can't use your project in DRM'd stuff. It leaves what's "DRM" open to interpretation, up to (and including) stuff like Android APK.
[16:45:43] <DarkUranium> Even the "liberal" CC-BY has that clause. I can *kind of* understand it in *-SA or *-NC, but CC-BY?
[16:45:48] <R2robot> can you link to something specific?
[16:45:53] <R2robot> all I hear is FUD
[16:45:54] <LastTalon> Yeah, that's what I meant when I said we need better words.
[16:45:58] <LastTalon> What exactly counts as DRM?
[16:46:07] <LastTalon> Is steam DRM?
[16:46:40] <R2robot> i mean when DRM first came out.. APK, steam etc, didn't really exist
[16:46:46] <DarkUranium> digital restrictions management
[16:46:54] <DarkUranium> R2robot, https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/legalcode 2.a.4.
[16:47:06] <DarkUranium> The "hiding from users" part I can't cite, because I've no idea where the ML archives are.
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[16:47:21] <DarkUranium> This was during the discussion for CC 4.0, IIRC.
[16:47:35] <WarauSalesman> what is CC? carbon copy?
[16:47:41] <DarkUranium> WarauSalesman, CreativeCommons.
[16:47:46] <WarauSalesman> oohh
[16:47:49] <R2robot> 4.0?
[16:47:57] <DarkUranium> R2robot: yeah, version 4 of the license.
[16:48:19] <DarkUranium> The only sane CC license is CC0.
[16:48:23] <WarauSalesman> wow! their site is hungry for email addresses
[16:48:28] * WarauSalesman gets suspicious
[16:48:40] <R2robot> i don't know man..  still just FUD sounding to me
[16:48:58] <WarauSalesman> Donate to help keep the internet free and open!
[16:48:59] <WarauSalesman> eh....
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[16:49:54] <brainzap> we all now use chrome, uuups there is no internet anymore
[16:50:05] <WarauSalesman> chrome and gmail :)
[16:50:11] <WarauSalesman> best browser, best email
[16:50:25] * R2robot dumped chrome for firefox (again)
[16:50:28] <DarkUranium> R2robot, it's literally in their own text.
[16:50:37] <WarauSalesman> the CC faq is giant
[16:50:38] <DarkUranium> and it's a well-known legal issue with CC licenses.
[16:51:06] <R2robot> i mean, you make it sound all sinister, when the reality is a conflict of goals.
[16:51:17] <LastTalon> R2robot, how is it FUD?
[16:51:24] <LastTalon> I'm not seeing the FUD.
[16:51:46] <R2robot> 'assholes, hidden', etc
[16:51:53] <WarauSalesman> :)
[16:51:57] <R2robot> like there is some sinister motives
[16:52:25] <DarkUranium> R2robot, intentionally hiding clauses of your license from authors who are going to use it *is* sinister in my opinion.
[16:52:26] <WarauSalesman> that is ##programming for you
[16:52:46] <R2robot> 'deceiving authors'.. etc.
[16:52:47] <LastTalon> I'm still confused as to where the FUD comes in.
[16:53:02] <DarkUranium> R2robot, they literally admitted it. I mean, come on.
[16:53:08] <R2robot> LastTalon: was talking about DarkUranium descriptions
[16:53:28] <DarkUranium> They said authors would stop using it if they made that clause more obvious.
[16:53:38] <DarkUranium> If that's not clear proof of deception, then I don't know what is.
[16:53:41] <toxictype> Can someone help me draw 3D shapes in SDL?
[16:53:44] <R2robot> [CITATION NEEDED]
[16:53:48] <toxictype> I tried all the tutorials and nothing worked.
[16:53:51] <DarkUranium> oh, fuck off.
[16:53:56] <R2robot> ;)
[16:54:00] <LastTalon> R2robot, idk, CC is pretty vague about it in their license.
[16:54:14] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, you need to fix the tutorials
[16:54:24] <LastTalon> Like here is their page describing the CC4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
[16:54:27] <toxictype> I already tried everything.
[16:54:41] <WarauSalesman> everything? all their tutorials are wrong?
[16:54:43] <toxictype> Shaders, no shaders, matrices, everything.
[16:54:43] <LastTalon> It says "technological measures" (which is the same language used in the actual license.
[16:55:00] <LastTalon> Its not entirely clear to a lay person what that means, but they mean DRM.
[16:55:09] <toxictype> If I draw a trinagle it's fine but if I change the z value of one vertex it disappears.
[16:55:19] <R2robot> LastTalon: they are anti-drm, that's no secret
[16:55:24] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, do you have a simple testcase?
[16:55:26] <toxictype> Even if I change it by a fraction.
[16:55:31] <toxictype> No I do not have a simple testcase.
[16:55:36] <WarauSalesman> then you are screwed :)
[16:55:37] <toxictype> Nor will I.
[16:55:41] <LastTalon> R2robot, they weren't very explicit about it in the past though.
[16:55:48] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, make a simple testcase and I will help
[16:55:55] <toxictype> I'm not going to make a testcase because it's going to work and it will be pointless.
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[16:56:05] <WarauSalesman> if it is going to work, then you have a problem elsewhere
[16:56:08] <LastTalon> So if you're someone who doesn't know they're anti-DRM and you don't know that "technological measures" means DRM you might choose their license with no idea.
[16:56:09] <WarauSalesman> divide and conquer!!!
[16:56:22] <toxictype> Like I said I tried everything.
[16:56:25] <WarauSalesman> nope
[16:56:29] <WarauSalesman> toxictype> I'm not going to make a testcase because it's going to work and it will be pointless.
[16:56:33] <WarauSalesman> you already know the problem
[16:56:44] <R2robot> LastTalon: I mean, the same could be said for just about any license, EULA, etc.
[16:56:58] <R2robot> nobody reads shit
[16:56:59] <kernel-sanders> everything? did you build a quantum computer to run all possible programs using SDL to draw a 3d shape?
[16:57:06] <LastTalon> R2robot, I suppose.
[16:57:08] <WarauSalesman> he does not even want to test things separately
[16:57:17] <WarauSalesman> his definition of everything is really weird
[16:57:19] <toxictype> https://wandbox.org/permlink/x78RtygxXgGPCicm If that's the case how come this doesn't work then?
[16:57:26] <LastTalon> R2robot, GPL has similar issues tbf.
[16:57:36] <R2robot> yeah
[16:57:39] <LastTalon> There's a lot about it that most people don't understand.
[16:57:40] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, that does work
[16:57:47] <toxictype> No it does not.
[16:57:51] <WarauSalesman> works for me :)
[16:57:58] <LastTalon> Like it contains sections that are probably not legally enforcable.
[16:58:04] <LastTalon> They're only in there to sort of grand stand.
[16:58:07] <toxictype> Now do you believe me?
[16:58:11] <WarauSalesman> it works for me
[16:58:19] <WarauSalesman> I believe you have serious issues
[16:58:20] <toxictype> I told you about the test case.
[16:58:24] <WarauSalesman> yeah
[16:58:29] <WarauSalesman> now you have to divide and conquer
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[16:58:34] <WarauSalesman> test parts of your code separately
[16:58:36] <WarauSalesman> combine some of them
[16:58:37] <WarauSalesman> etc
[16:58:42] <DarkUranium> R2robot, "nobody reads shit" is no excuse to hide stuff from *authors*
[16:58:44] <toxictype> Look what happens when I try to use that code.
[16:58:46] <LastTalon> Unit testing? :D
[16:58:50] <R2robot> LastTalon: if people actual read EULAs, they would never install Windows, OSX or use facebook or just about any application/platform on the internet. lol
[16:58:51] <toxictype> https://snag.gy/g2zInT.jpg
[16:58:51] <DarkUranium> When you're pretending to be acting *in their interests*
[16:58:58] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, unit testing and functional testing
[16:59:03] <R2robot> DarkUranium: 'hide'
[16:59:12] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, yeah! you have other problems :)
[16:59:14] <toxictype> I tried everything already.
[16:59:29] <toxictype> If I change the z coordinate it's fucked.
[16:59:31] <DarkUranium> R2robot, yes. Hide.
[16:59:35] <R2robot> lol
[16:59:37] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, you are fucking it elsewhere
[16:59:38] <LastTalon> Idk. I understand DarkUranium's concern.
[16:59:38] <DarkUranium> R2robot, the brief summary had *no* mention of that.
[16:59:41] <toxictype> Or try to rotate in a way that changes the z coordinate.
[16:59:42] <LastTalon> Its false advertising.
[16:59:52] <toxictype> How can anything fuck it up like that?
[16:59:56] <DarkUranium> It's like a company putting "we own you" in the EULA.
[17:00:00] <LastTalon> You're trying to get more people on your side than actually are and essentially trying to trick them.
[17:00:00] <WarauSalesman> how can I know? it is your code, not mine :D
[17:00:03] <DarkUranium> Is it the user's fault they didn't read it? Technically.
[17:00:06] <R2robot> DarkUranium: FUD
[17:00:08] <DarkUranium> Is it sinister? Also yes.
[17:00:20] <toxictype> What could possibly cause this?
[17:00:23] <toxictype> I don't even do anything.
[17:00:27] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, remember that OpenGL leaks state by design
[17:00:32] <DarkUranium> R2robot, you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
[17:00:36] <toxictype> All I did was run SDL and OpenGL in the same window.
[17:00:39] <WarauSalesman> :)
[17:00:42] <toxictype> Well, okay, then what?
[17:00:47] <R2robot> DarkUranium: soooo sinister.  "hey guys, we just want you to use our license so we can all share, so please don't use evil corps anti-sharing tech'    SOOOO SINISTER!! lol
[17:00:50] <WarauSalesman> then something is leaking and screwing you
[17:00:55] <WarauSalesman> and you don't know what it is
[17:01:01] <toxictype> bitch lasagna
[17:01:05] <LastTalon> R2robot, that's not the part he's saying is sinister.
[17:01:07] <WarauSalesman> now.. go do some real work
[17:01:10] <WarauSalesman> divide and conquer
[17:01:16] <WarauSalesman> chop chop
[17:01:16] <DarkUranium> yeah, that's a fucking strawman, R2robot.
[17:01:18] <brainzap> REAL WRK
[17:01:21] <R2robot> LOL
[17:01:26] <R2robot> FUD
[17:01:29] <brainzap> lol *me loads gun*
[17:01:31] <DarkUranium> It's more like "hey guys, we just want you to use our license so we all can share, it makes people attribute your work!"
[17:01:33] * WarauSalesman fuds the whole channel
[17:01:33] <R2robot> so.much.fud
[17:01:35] <toxictype> Oh my fucking god.
[17:01:35] * brainzap shoots R2robot down
[17:01:35] <WarauSalesman> pant pant pant
[17:01:43] <toxictype> Wait something worked.
[17:01:43] * R2robot crashes and burns
[17:01:44] <DarkUranium> But the license itself, with no mention anywhere else, has some other shit in it.
[17:01:48] <DarkUranium> Shit that wasn't advertised.
[17:02:02] <WarauSalesman> DarkUranium, so it has STRINGS ATTACHED????
[17:02:05] <toxictype> No never mind still doesn't work.
[17:02:16] <toxictype> I commented out the only other part of the code that does anything with opengl.
[17:02:27] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, rambling won't help you
[17:02:30] * R2robot has a robotic limp now
[17:02:36] <DarkUranium> WarauSalesman, in a sense. Except they were quite explicitly presenting it as a "no strings attached" deal.
[17:02:46] <toxictype> What am I supposed to do?
[17:02:51] <WarauSalesman> so the license has a FINE PRINT in very small letters?
[17:02:59] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, go do some real debugging or give up programming
[17:03:08] <toxictype> I told you I tried everything.
[17:03:13] <WarauSalesman> so .. option 2
[17:03:17] <WarauSalesman> give up this shit
[17:03:19] <toxictype> I wouldn't be here.
[17:03:20] <WarauSalesman> it is making you miserable
[17:03:25] <toxictype> Stop demotivating me.
[17:03:28] <DarkUranium> WarauSalesman, Basically. And they tried to hide the fine print from the authors who were going to be using the license.
[17:03:42] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@77.208.14.46.static.wline.lns.sme.cust.swisscom.ch> has quit IRC (Quit: My tummy says it's time to sleep Mr. Bubbles.)
[17:03:42] <Prestige> what issue are u having toxictype ?
[17:03:48] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, you always break when you face any simple challenge
[17:03:50] <R2robot> LOL
[17:03:51] <WarauSalesman> coding is not for you
[17:04:00] <R2robot> what was the goal of 'hiding' the clause?
[17:04:02] <toxictype> Prestige, shapes won't get drawn if z coordinate of any vertex isn't 0.
[17:04:02] <R2robot> what did they gain?
[17:04:13] <WarauSalesman> it is a conspiracy. ofc
[17:04:13] <toxictype> >simple
[17:04:14] <toxictype> bitch pls
[17:04:17] <R2robot> or what was the potential gain of 'hiding' that clause?
[17:04:28] <WarauSalesman> R2robot, you know that is not a simple question :)
[17:04:31] <DarkUranium> R2robot, do you mean why was it in there in the first place, or why did they hide it?
[17:04:34] <Prestige> u tried positive and negative z coordinates?
[17:04:37] <toxictype> Yes.
[17:04:42] <toxictype> Small and large.
[17:04:43] <WarauSalesman> u tried turning it off and on?
[17:04:47] <DarkUranium> For the former, I don't know. My best guess is a (at the time) hidden agenda.
[17:04:57] <LastTalon> R2robot, as an analogy. I present you a work contract. I tell you it says you'll work for me for 6 months minimum, you make X amount, etc. Nothing sounds out of the ordinary. But I don't tell you it also says that you're also agreeing that you're agreeing to never wear clothes at work. You're a lay person and don't really understand the terms of the contract. Is it fair that I don't tell you about this clause?
[17:05:01] <R2robot> DarkUranium: no, what did they gain by 'hiding' it?  what was the payoff of this conspiracy?
[17:05:02] <WarauSalesman> hidden agenda with the corporate greed
[17:05:05] <DarkUranium> For the latter, they literally said why ... because people wouldn't accept the license had they been explicit about it.
[17:05:09] <toxictype> I tried turning off and on everything.
[17:05:12] <DarkUranium> R2robot, remember, they were advertising it as basically a "MIT for art".
[17:05:27] <WarauSalesman> they have a hidden agenda of slavery
[17:05:29] <R2robot> DarkUranium: again, I ask, what was the gain?
[17:05:35] <WarauSalesman> once everyone is committed to them.. they will TAKE OVER
[17:05:40] <DarkUranium> R2robot, they wanted adoption. So the gain was more adoption.
[17:05:45] <DarkUranium> Or rather, less non-adoption.
[17:05:55] <R2robot> DarkUranium: lol
[17:06:06] <WarauSalesman> the fine print says: "whoever has this license is more screwed than GNU GPL and they need to do sexual favors every day to the CEOs"
[17:06:10] <R2robot> DarkUranium: so an ego boost then?
[17:06:12] <LastTalon> R2robot, I'm essentially tricking you into adopting this no-clothes contract without your knowledge.
[17:06:21] <DarkUranium> R2robot, yes. Look how influential CC became.
[17:06:30] <R2robot> hahahahahahahahahahhaa
[17:06:31] <DarkUranium> R2robot, also, they got the DRM clause to spread like wildfire.
[17:06:35] <DarkUranium> Which directly helped their agenda.
[17:06:39] <WarauSalesman> the CEOs can go every day in your home and bang your mom w/o using condoms
[17:06:40] <R2robot> LOOOOOOOL
[17:06:47] <R2robot> well this was fun. :)
[17:06:49] <DarkUranium> R2robot, you're a fucking moron.
[17:06:52] <WarauSalesman> :DDDD
[17:06:59] <R2robot> DarkUranium: ad-hom :)
[17:07:06] <WarauSalesman> omg, now I just came in my pants
[17:07:10] <R2robot> same
[17:07:15] <LastTalon> This is frustrating.
[17:07:18] <DarkUranium> WarauSalesman, well, they sure as hell don't bang *your* mom.
[17:07:22] <DarkUranium> WarauSalesman, you see, they have standards!
[17:07:25] * DarkUranium ducks
[17:07:26] <WarauSalesman> LastTalon, why? this shit show is really fun
[17:07:37] <WarauSalesman> DarkUranium, she is 88, so I understand :D
[17:07:44] <R2robot> FUDFEST 2019!
[17:07:57] <LastTalon> R2robot, I really don't think you know what FUD means.
[17:08:02] <DarkUranium> R2robot, 1) stop using big words you don't understand. 2) "LOOOOOOOL" is moronic.
[17:08:03] <R2robot> all are invited!
[17:08:05] <DarkUranium> Q.E.D.
[17:08:07] <WarauSalesman> they'd rather bang me, even when I have hemorrhoids
[17:08:36] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, I guess it boils down to whether justified FUD is FUD.
[17:08:37] <R2robot> You could like sense the panic and desperation rising. Too funny.
[17:09:08] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, I'd say it's "fear, uncertainty and doubt", but it isn't FUD(TM), as in the term+connotatations that we've gotten used to.
[17:09:11] <R2robot> One denies it, the other debates if it's justified. :D
[17:09:13] <R2robot> lol
[17:09:25] <R2robot> BBL o/
[17:09:30] <WarauSalesman> well, I understand the influence argument
[17:09:35] <LastTalon> I don't see how this is FUD in any case. This isn't some strategy to hurt R2robot.
[17:09:37] <WarauSalesman> they get donations
[17:09:41] <WarauSalesman> they have a CEO
[17:09:48] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, given his last reply, I suspect he may be trolling.
[17:09:50] <kernel-sanders> what's FUD, I'm getting old
[17:09:57] <WarauSalesman> kernel-sanders, /j ##programming
[17:09:59] <WarauSalesman> FUD in practice
[17:10:00] <DarkUranium> kernel-sanders, see my penultimate comment.
[17:10:17] <kernel-sanders> FUD, yeet, I can't keep up anymore
[17:10:26] <LastTalon> Yeah, strictly speaking its Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
[17:10:44] <LastTalon> But it usually is used in the context of the spread of these in a strategy to harm someone or something.
[17:10:46] <WarauSalesman> LastTalon, these trio of words don't explain how it actually WORKS
[17:10:54] <WarauSalesman> LastTalon, yeah
[17:11:02] <kernel-sanders> ah ok now I know what it means
[17:11:03] <WarauSalesman> harm, belittle, taint
[17:11:06] <WarauSalesman> trivialize
[17:11:29] <LastTalon> "Do you really think Tesla can manufacture that many cars?"
[17:11:37] <WarauSalesman> like.. the current media abuses FUD
[17:11:45] <WarauSalesman> to spread their blatant agenda
[17:12:07] <LastTalon> The globalists. And the gay frogs.
[17:12:18] <WarauSalesman> DarkUranium, I understand what you are trying to say
[17:12:22] <DarkUranium> An example would be Microsoft's campaign against OpenGL back just before Vista came out. They basically stated at some point that OpenGL drivers would be gone, and OpenGL would end up sitting on top of Direct3D (which would be a huge performance drop, compared to status quo).
[17:12:32] <DarkUranium> They backed down, but damage has been done --- it gave DirectX 10 the needed boost.
[17:12:48] <LastTalon> Isn't that basically all of D3D's history?
[17:12:54] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, basically, yes.
[17:13:01] <DarkUranium> Also a bunch of false advertising. I've always "loved" this image, sec
[17:13:12] <DarkUranium> http://cybernetnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/directxflightsimulator.jpg
[17:13:41] <LastTalon> Wut
[17:13:59] <DarkUranium> They used tactics like comparing D3D9 min graphics with D3D10 max, or decreasing brightness for D3D9. In this ^ particular instance, it's actually just an "artist's rendition" (not sure if offline comp graphics render, or a painting, but it's not a D3D10 render)
[17:14:40] <LastTalon> Lol
[17:14:48] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, here's another one (the website that hosts that image is biased here, but I *do* remember seeing these ads): http://cdn.wolfire.com/blog/opengl/comparison.jpg
[17:14:52] <DarkUranium> this is the brightness trick
[17:15:09] <LastTalon> LOL
[17:15:15] <DarkUranium> It's like informercials, except people often didn't realize it was an informercial.
[17:15:17] <LastTalon> They literally just changed the brightness.
[17:15:32] <DarkUranium> Yeah. That's the dirty tactics they used, back when D3D10 was new.
[17:15:38] <DarkUranium> (on top of the FUD)
[17:15:49] <LastTalon> Its the same exact textures and everything.
[17:15:54] <DarkUranium> Yup.
[17:16:42] <WarauSalesman> can I fap now?
[17:16:54] <DarkUranium> I mean, there *are* differences (otherwise, what's the point?) but they're veeeery subtle.
[17:16:59] * LastTalon dances out on the runway to attract planes
[17:17:15] <DarkUranium> lol
[17:17:26] <WarauSalesman> run...
[17:17:27] <WarauSalesman> run......
[17:17:29] <WarauSalesman> run.........
[17:17:30] <WarauSalesman> run......
[17:17:33] <WarauSalesman> run.........
[17:17:37] <WarauSalesman> RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNN!
[17:17:51] <WarauSalesman> (like hell)
[17:18:06] <LastTalon> Get to the choppa
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[17:18:58] <kernel-sanders> https://youtu.be/SLE9ktzUSu8
[17:19:41] <LastTalon> I don't know who's reaction is worse...
[17:19:47] <LastTalon> The kid's or the parent's
[17:19:50] <DarkUranium> lol
[17:20:06] <LastTalon> "NO!"
[17:20:09] <LastTalon> ???
[17:20:24] <WarauSalesman> what did the kid do?
[17:20:27] <WarauSalesman> the video is weird
[17:20:31] <LastTalon> He has a knife.
[17:20:34] <WarauSalesman> fuck
[17:20:39] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, oh yeah, they'd also do stuff like compare a 2001 DX9 game (Halo) to a 2007 one (Crysis).
[17:20:43] <kernel-sanders> parents don't want their kids to run around with a knife
[17:21:04] <LastTalon> No, but you don't get a young child to stop and let go of the knife by screaming "NO!" and running at them.
[17:21:06] <LastTalon> Lol
[17:21:06] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, claiming the improvements are because of DX10 (hint: Crysis ran on DX9, looked nearly identical, too)
[17:21:13] <DarkUranium> Sure you do.
[17:21:19] <DarkUranium> You just need anti-stab body armor!
[17:21:25] <LastTalon> Maybe if you want them to run from you and kill themselves on the knife.
[17:21:27] <LastTalon> Lol
[17:21:31] <DarkUranium> Or one of those riot shields. Shield bash the fucker into the ground!
[17:21:43] <DarkUranium> ... come think of it, an ancient shield would work, too.
[17:21:53] <LastTalon> Shield bash!
[17:22:02] <DarkUranium> Kids make terrible gladiators, they have neither the reach nor the upper body strength.
[17:22:08] <kernel-sanders> shield throw, then you don't have to get up close
[17:22:22] <LastTalon> Kick him off the ledge.
[17:22:31] <kernel-sanders> which is used in games but doesn't make much sense in practice
[17:22:39] <LastTalon> Lol
[17:22:49] <DarkUranium> kernel-sanders, and in movies. Captain America likes to throw his shield around.
[17:23:01] <DaScoot> yeah, it's almost certainly all Capt America inspired
[17:23:17] <DarkUranium> Don't forget shield snowboarding/skating.
[17:23:42] <WarauSalesman> if the kid had an atari, he would be playing it, instead of having to make up games with knives
[17:23:42] <DaScoot> Legolas can do whatever he damn well pleases with a shield
[17:24:14] <LastTalon> Shooting an arrow with a rope attached.
[17:24:43] <DarkUranium> DaScoot, except toss a dwarf.
[17:24:49] <WarauSalesman> legolas can even walk on ropes
[17:24:59] <DarkUranium> Legolas is like LOTR Chuck Norris.
[17:25:01] <WarauSalesman> too bad they did not do this scene in the movies
[17:25:35] <WarauSalesman> the dwarf was more prone to a carnage than legolas
[17:26:26] <LastTalon> I have no idea where the idea that you can attach a rope to an arrow comes from.
[17:26:36] <LastTalon> One of the most unrealistic things I can think of.
[17:26:43] <LastTalon> Ropes are fucking heavy, man.
[17:26:54] <WarauSalesman> it is possible
[17:27:06] <LastTalon> If you want the arrow to go 5 feet
[17:27:10] <WarauSalesman> you can use a heavy arrow and a long bow
[17:27:14] <WarauSalesman> and have a very strong arm
[17:27:24] <LastTalon> It still won't go very far.
[17:27:33] <LastTalon> A rope has so much weight and drag
[17:27:47] <DarkUranium> WarauSalesman, that's called a "ballista" :P
[17:27:51] <LastTalon> ^
[17:28:00] <WarauSalesman> DarkUranium, the Long Bow was stronger than a ballista
[17:28:05] <LastTalon> With a crossbow you can manage to shoot a thin cord.
[17:28:06] <WarauSalesman> not a heavy ballista
[17:28:20] <LastTalon> The long bow was not stronger than ballistae.
[17:28:35] <WarauSalesman> hmm actually I am mistaken. ballista is the heavy one. the bolts were weaker
[17:28:40] <LastTalon> Ballistae are basically floor mounted crossbows.
[17:28:42] <WarauSalesman> what is the name? arbalest?
[17:28:56] <WarauSalesman> the hand held one that was stronger than a normal bow
[17:29:01] <LastTalon> Crossbow
[17:29:04] <WarauSalesman> yeah
[17:29:11] <WarauSalesman> but there is another one which is stronger too
[17:29:19] <wedr> Longbow
[17:29:21] <WarauSalesman> it has a funny name
[17:29:28] <WarauSalesman> the long bow is the british secret weapon :D
[17:29:31] <LastTalon> Its more feasible with a crossbow, but you can really only manage to get a thin cord launched. Nothing you could climb.
[17:29:41] <wedr> Yeoman
[17:29:42] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, how about a *VERY* heavy arrow? https://youtu.be/KhNuC8vRJ9I?t=27 :D
[17:29:56] <LastTalon> LOL
[17:29:57] <DarkUranium> Bet that could carry a rope some distance!
[17:30:30] <LastTalon> Are propelled projectiles arrows?
[17:30:44] <DarkUranium> They are now! I have decreed it thusly!
[17:30:57] <DaScoot> some projectiles are arrows
[17:31:05] <LastTalon> RPG launcher should do the job.
[17:31:29] <LastTalon> Sort of getting away from the main concept though.
[17:31:37] <wedr> Booooo, a Kamehameha Wave is faster.
[17:31:40] <LastTalon> Shooting a bow and somehow getting a rope to climb with attached.
[17:31:57] <LastTalon> Okay, even if the goddamn thing fired the rope, how is it attached securely enough with an arrow?
[17:32:07] <LastTalon> Its flawed on so many levels.
[17:32:16] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, on that note, I always find it annoying how ... underwhelming missiles are in games.
[17:32:28] <DarkUranium> Because come on, missiles are *awesome* https://youtu.be/4AW1XHUcAsQ?t=31
[17:32:45] <WarauSalesman> LastTalon, even Batman managed to efficiently use his bat rope. come on :)
[17:32:52] <DarkUranium> (warning: loud)
[17:33:06] <LastTalon> DarkUranium, what do you mean?
[17:33:11] <DaScoot> a thin cord could be tied to a stronger rope, if there's someone there to pull it up
[17:33:17] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, they're always slow and puny and quiet.
[17:33:31] <LastTalon> DaScoot, that's actually how its done with crossbows.
[17:33:32] <DarkUranium> And there's no secondaries, like the boosters taking the cap off of this ^ one
[17:33:44] <LastTalon> DaScoot, you use like fishing line, then tie it to a stronger rope.
[17:33:57] <LastTalon> You can then pull the fishing line to draw the climbable rope.
[17:34:08] <wedr> To be fair, I don't like missiles
[17:34:25] <wedr> I don't like guns, I don't like arrows, I don't like sticks and stones, and I don't like bullets.
[17:34:39] <DarkUranium> ah, you're a grenade type of guy.
[17:34:42] <LastTalon> DarkUranium, the secondaries are cool.
[17:34:53] <LastTalon> DarkUranium, but I feel like it doesn't come up much in movies and games.
[17:34:56] <wedr> Change my mind: A missile is a grenade.
[17:35:18] <LastTalon> A missile is propelled.
[17:35:23] <LastTalon> A grenade is a projectile.
[17:35:25] <wedr> it still explodes
[17:35:33] <DarkUranium> So does a baloon.
[17:35:36] <LastTalon> But they operate entirely differently. Lol
[17:35:36] <DarkUranium> Balloon*
[17:35:49] <wedr> they both explodes and damages the surrounding area.
[17:35:53] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, it could, though. Many times in games do you see missiles being fired.
[17:35:56] <DarkUranium> From ships, players, etc.
[17:36:19] <LastTalon> DarkUranium, lots of times I feel like this happens in a historical setting with more primitive missiles though.
[17:36:31] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, many modern games.
[17:36:41] <LastTalon> I guess I don't play any modern military games.
[17:36:48] <DarkUranium> And even older missiles (that one wasn't very modern, the last one) have secondaries.
[17:36:53] * LastTalon keeps playing sniper elite
[17:37:02] <wedr> I missed the old days where there's fantasy military games.
[17:38:05] <DarkUranium> wedr, does Warhammer not count?
[17:38:10] <wedr> Basically, you command troops with magical staffs. There's a regime where every soldier follows. There's commanders and generals, but all of them have magical staffs and sorcery
[17:38:19] <wedr> DarkUranium: No, that's not fantasy enough
[17:38:22] <DarkUranium> eh?
[17:38:25] <DarkUranium> By what logic?
[17:38:33] <wedr> Because you don't have dictatorship regime
[17:38:38] <DarkUranium> lol
[17:38:43] <DarkUranium> do you even know anything about Warhammer?
[17:38:45] <LastTalon> So where is this grenade confusion coming from?
[17:38:58] <wedr> LastTalon: a missile is a grenade
[17:39:04] <WarauSalesman> wedr, I miss games like Warsong and Shining Force
[17:39:06] <LastTalon> No its not. :)
[17:39:17] <wedr> LastTalon: Hence I said for you to change my mind.
[17:39:26] <DarkUranium> A balloon is a grenade. It explodes. Change my mind!
[17:39:29] <LastTalon> I presented an argument already, but you ignored it.
[17:39:30] <WarauSalesman> I played the shit out of Warson 2
[17:39:35] <WarauSalesman> *Warsong 2
[17:39:38] <wedr> A balloon is not a missile.
[17:39:41] <WarauSalesman> (aka Langrisser 2)
[17:39:43] <LastTalon> So now I'm just wondering why you're confused about what missiles and grenades are.
[17:39:56] <DarkUranium> wedr, you earlier said "it still explodes".
[17:39:57] <wedr> LastTalon: No fun allowed. :(
[17:40:04] <wedr> DarkUranium: Yes
[17:40:08] <WarauSalesman> wedr, tell me about these fantasy military games
[17:40:32] <WarauSalesman> or military fantasy games (what is the rule of ordering the adjectives?)
[17:40:40] <wedr> <LastTalon> I presented an argument already, but you ignored it.  <---  What argument?
[17:40:43] <wedr> I probably missed it
[17:40:49] <LastTalon> See, I knew you ignored it.
[17:40:51] <WarauSalesman> is was probably not relevant anyway
[17:40:53] <WarauSalesman> !next
[17:41:19] <LastTalon> A missile is propelled, a grenade is not.
[17:41:57] <wedr> WarauSalesman: The fantasy military game I have in mind is a fantasy world, where you are fighting against slimes. But you are in the military pushing forth the idea of reincarnation by magic.
[17:42:29] <WarauSalesman> oh! it is not an existing game
[17:42:32] <WarauSalesman> +__+
[17:42:34] <wedr> WarauSalesman: Yea
[17:42:45] <wedr> WarauSalesman: I'm just tired of the current "military" trend
[17:42:51] <WarauSalesman> wedr, you know a good inspiration for it?
[17:42:53] <WarauSalesman> THE MYST
[17:43:02] <WarauSalesman> your game can be a sequel of THE MYST
[17:43:20] <wedr> WarauSalesman: No, a good inspiration for it came from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure
[17:43:27] <WarauSalesman> the army unleashed the monsters from another plane. now they have to fight them back
[17:43:31] <WarauSalesman> oh come on
[17:43:32] <LastTalon> You know another unrealistic thing in movies?
[17:43:34] <LastTalon> The neck snap.
[17:43:36] <WarauSalesman> the myst is a great movie
[17:43:44] <wedr> I never watched them.
[17:43:44] <LastTalon> Do you know how hard it is to kill someone that way?
[17:43:46] <WarauSalesman> awesome ending
[17:43:48] <WarauSalesman> you need to watch it
[17:43:52] <WarauSalesman> you will get thrilled
[17:43:56] <WarauSalesman> it has fantasy and military
[17:44:13] <LastTalon> This one is so aggravating because its so prevalent that it seeps into our popular culture.
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[17:44:30] <WarauSalesman> and the perils of any emerging sovereign societies
[17:44:39] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, my biggest pet peeve is when you have this supposedly trained soldier (possibly even elite) flailing his gun around like crazy. Bonus points if his booger-hook is on the bang-switch.
[17:44:45] <LastTalon> Like people think you're going to kill yourself if you twist your head slightly like when you're stretching your neck or something.
[17:44:52] <DarkUranium> I saw them point at other people in movies and such.
[17:45:07] <WarauSalesman> well, if I don't control my stretches, my neck gets really bad
[17:45:10] <DarkUranium> I get it if it's supposedly-untrained people, though. Then it makes sense.
[17:45:10] <LastTalon> DarkUranium, yeah, the escalation of force in movies needs work.
[17:45:16] <LastTalon> Running around pointing guns everywhere.
[17:45:31] <LastTalon> Like you're military, dude, you should know not to do that.
[17:45:38] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, what I mean is, someone pointing "go that way!" to someone by pointing the gun at them (because "that way" is past them)
[17:45:47] * LastTalon runs through corridors of people with his pistol up and points it at everyone he sees
[17:45:52] <DarkUranium> lol
[17:45:59] <DarkUranium> Well, that's kind of a thing in games :P
[17:46:06] <LastTalon> Gotta use my bad guy detector gun.
[17:46:21] <DarkUranium> Lemme guess, if you shoot by accident, the guy was a communist spy?
[17:46:34] <DarkUranium> s/spy/& anyway/
[17:46:47] <LastTalon> Nah, the bad guy will suddenly have his hologram projector fail and reveal he was an evil alien.
[17:46:51] <LastTalon> (It was a scifi movie)
[17:47:20] <LastTalon> But seriously, the head snapping.
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[17:47:41] <DarkUranium> lol yeah
[17:47:47] <LastTalon> When I was in highschool I literally had teachers tell me they'd send me to the office because they thought I was going to kill myself when I was popping my neck.
[17:47:58] <LastTalon> And I'm just like... you're stupid, there's no way you can do that to yourself.
[17:48:00] <wedr> I wished we have games with ridiculous killing methods, like how in Golgo 13, an assassin killed himself while attempting to kill the protagonist.
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[17:48:10] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, oh, you know what else is annoying? Games share this issue.
[17:48:12] <LastTalon> It requires so much pressure to do, you wouldn't do it to yourself.
[17:48:20] <DarkUranium> Suppressors.
[17:48:28] <DarkUranium> The sound. And in games, how they make guns weaker.
[17:48:29] <LastTalon> Yeah, but its a necessary evil.
[17:48:33] <LastTalon> How am I supposed to be stealthy?
[17:48:35] <LastTalon> :P
[17:48:41] <LastTalon> I gotta use my gun.
[17:48:49] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, https://i.imgur.com/3B8guBD.gif
[17:49:00] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, or rather: https://i.imgur.com/Yom4A4P.jpg
[17:49:10] <LastTalon> ^
[17:49:40] <LastTalon> Suppressors get a weird wrap in games.
[17:49:42] <DarkUranium> I'd like to see a game, just one, where a suppressor increases muzzle velocity (as most [all?] actual suppressors do)
[17:49:59] <DarkUranium> I was working on one. It's on a hiatus, but yes.
[17:50:05] <LastTalon> People expect them to be near silent, which is a huge advantage, so they need to devise a way to give them a downside and its completely unrealistic.
[17:50:08] <DarkUranium> It was balanced by making the gun harder to handle (i.e. felt heavier)
[17:50:14] <warweasle> wedr: Have you played Hitman 2016?
[17:50:24] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, see above :P
[17:50:29] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, there are other ways to balance.
[17:50:44] <LastTalon> I do like sniper elite in this respect.
[17:50:52] <LastTalon> Its at least a little more realistic than most.
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[17:51:26] <LastTalon> Your stealth pistol is actually a quiet pistol, you can't just add a suppressor to your rifle and make it so no one hears.
[17:51:50] <LastTalon> Rather than just using a regular old pistol and slapping a suppressor on it and pretending it doesn't make noise now.
[17:52:35] <LastTalon> Like if you take someone else's pistol it'll actually attract enemies if you fire it.
[17:53:21] <WarauSalesman> it all started with Metal Gear
[17:53:35] <LastTalon> METAL GEAR
[17:53:37] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, well, I'm used to Arma (w/ ACE) & Squad, so ;)
[17:53:44] <DarkUranium> But Arma's weapons are a disaster.
[17:53:46] <WarauSalesman> the MSX version, LastTalon
[17:53:47] <WarauSalesman> :)
[17:53:50] <DarkUranium> Call of Duty does more realistic reloads than Arma 3.
[17:53:53] <DarkUranium> CALL OF DUTY!
[17:53:53] <WarauSalesman> but Castle Wolfenstein was the first one to create such mechanics
[17:54:10] <WarauSalesman> too bad it was a sucky game (but it got famous anyway)
[17:54:15] <LastTalon> Although, some stuff in it is strange still.
[17:54:28] <LastTalon> I doubt you could fool people by shooting at the same time a generator is making noise.
[17:54:33] <LastTalon> Or at the same time a plane flies overhead.
[17:54:40] <WarauSalesman> ofc you can
[17:54:41] <LastTalon> The sound of a shot would still be distinct enough.
[17:54:50] <WarauSalesman> a plane is fucking loud
[17:54:56] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, what, in Wolfenstein?
[17:55:04] <DarkUranium> WarauSalesman, and a completely different sound from a gunshot.
[17:55:05] <LastTalon> In sniper elite.
[17:55:14] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, to be fair, it is in a war. Shots are to be expected.
[17:55:33] <LastTalon> Right, but you can do it and people a few feet away won't think somethings up.
[17:55:44] <DarkUranium> True.
[17:55:52] <LastTalon> They'll just be like "oh, that darn generator again"
[17:55:53] <DarkUranium> Unless their buddies are morons who like to shoot at planes :D
[17:56:34] <chrisf> LastTalon: it's a fun mechanic. it doesnt have to be realistic
[17:56:37] <LastTalon> They act like people just can't possibly hear it through that noise.
[17:56:55] <LastTalon> chrisf, well that's what I mean. Its a fun game mechanic, but its not very realistic at all.
[17:56:59] <wedr> warweasle: No I have not.
[17:57:09] <wedr> it doesn't interest me.
[17:58:57] <LastTalon> Flying kicks
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[18:00:14] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, have you seen ACE mod's ballistics BTW?
[18:00:18] <DarkUranium> Or its stamina stuff?
[18:00:24] <LastTalon> No
[18:00:30] <DarkUranium> For stamina, they actually model the different ATP pathways in a body.
[18:00:50] <DarkUranium> And energy reserves. Right down to fatigue *of the pathways themselves*
[18:01:00] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, see 1.1 https://ace3mod.com/wiki/feature/advanced-ballistics.html
[18:01:02] <LastTalon> Neat.
[18:01:03] <DarkUranium> (this is ballistics)
[18:01:48] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, and fatigue ... this is the real kicker: https://ace3mod.com/wiki/feature/advanced-fatigue.html#2-simulation-details
[18:02:07] <DarkUranium> meanwhile, ACE 3 medical has this: https://ace3mod.com/img/wiki/feature/medical1.jpg
[18:02:16] <DarkUranium> (I was a medic in my Arma 2 days ... fun times)
[18:02:20] <DarkUranium> (that was with ACE, too)
[18:03:28] <wedr> Google GDC start
[18:04:17] <LastTalon> Do they simulate lactate fermentation?
[18:05:17] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, doubt it, since you can't *actually* feel it anyhow :P
[18:05:40] <LastTalon> Its an important part of the process.
[18:05:58] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, I think that's simulated via pathway fatigue.
[18:06:02] <LastTalon> Not just for feeling it, but your muscles literally can't keep going if they don't deal with it.
[18:06:05] <DarkUranium> (as opposed to just losing amount of stored energy)
[18:06:30] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, it does simulate cardiac arrest, and keeps track of both systolic and diatolic blood pressures :P
[18:06:34] <DarkUranium> diastolic*
[18:07:16] <LastTalon> Its similar to pathway fatigue, but still different.
[18:07:28] <DarkUranium> Talk to them, tell them to implement it :)
[18:07:33] <LastTalon> This is a matter of your muscles literally can't keep going. :P
[18:07:36] <DarkUranium> With this attention to detail, they might.
[18:07:45] <LastTalon> Ever run so hard you literally have to just stop and collapse on the ground?
[18:07:54] <LastTalon> That's what I'm talking about.
[18:07:57] <DarkUranium> Can't say that I have.
[18:08:03] <LastTalon> :P
[18:08:29] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, I mean, ACE actually models the effect of morphine on blood viscosity.
[18:08:38] <DarkUranium> It's friggin crazy.
[18:08:50] <DarkUranium> I think I'll give them a pass for overlooking lactate fermentation :P
[18:08:59] <LastTalon> Alright...
[18:09:15] <LastTalon> But I still think it would be fun to see people suffer the effects.
[18:09:32] <LastTalon> Just seeing someone collapse on the ground after running across a field.
[18:09:33] <DarkUranium> You sadist :D
[18:09:38] <LastTalon> Lol
[18:09:39] <chrisf> 'fun'
[18:09:43] <DarkUranium> lol
[18:09:50] <LastTalon> I play dwarf fortress.
[18:09:51] <DarkUranium> chrisf, it's the Dwarf Fortress definition of fun.
[18:09:52] <LastTalon> Its FUN
[18:09:56] <DarkUranium> ha
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[18:13:06] <mijowh> hello o/
[18:13:15] <mijowh> omg DF is the best game ever made
[18:13:21] * mijowh jumps into discussions
[18:13:54] <LastTalon> Anyone else see that DF is going to be sold on steam?
[18:14:02] <mijowh> sold?
[18:14:30] <LastTalon> Yeah.
[18:15:01] <toxictype> Guys when I try to draw a tringle in immediate mode it won't draw when the z coordinate of any vertex is nonzero.
[18:15:04] <toxictype> What do I do?
[18:15:15] <toxictype> https://github.com/voidAsterisk/ShadowOfTheChungus/blob/master/game/game.cpp see line 2760
[18:15:22] <mijowh> firstly dont use immediate mode api
[18:15:23] <toxictype> If I do that my triangle shrinks into it's origin.
[18:15:27] <toxictype> Testing purposes.
[18:15:29] <toxictype> Test failed.
[18:15:31] <toxictype> Cannot render 3D.
[18:15:33] <toxictype> Continue please.
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[18:16:28] <toxictype> It doesn't work in any mode. Immediate or not
[18:17:57] <mijowh> you dont use z coordinate anywhere it seems. you use glVertex2f
[18:18:07] <toxictype> See line 2760
[18:18:10] <mijowh> ofc i cant dig too deep, and this isnt close to a minimal case
[18:18:25] <toxictype> The minimal case worked.
[18:18:31] <mijowh> hm
[18:18:50] <mijowh> ill take a read i suppose, no guarantees
[18:19:05] <toxictype> Thanks I've been trying this for 20 hours.
[18:19:12] <mijowh> ah that feeling, yeah
[18:19:22] <mijowh> go get some coffee :P
[18:19:33] <toxictype> Already did now making food.
[18:20:19] <chrisf> likely confusion about some GL state at the point you draw that
[18:20:35] <chrisf> put a graphics debugger on it, inspect the state there, be enlightened
[18:20:41] <toxictype> I already tried every possible combination.
[18:20:55] <toxictype> I've been on this for 20 hours straight.
[18:21:24] <warweasle> I wish I was home...
[18:21:31] <warweasle> working on stuff I cared about.
[18:21:57] <toxictype> At least you're not a code monkey at work on 4 hits of LSD.
[18:22:24] <warweasle> How would I know?
[18:22:32] <mijowh> thats how java was developed
[18:23:02] <mijowh> im not as familiar with immediate mode tbh, never used it
[18:23:14] <toxictype> It's as simple as that.
[18:23:15] <mijowh> the modelview matrix youre using, how do you populate it?
[18:23:17] <chrisf> toxictype: seriously. graphics debugger.
[18:23:39] <toxictype> Line 2058?
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[18:29:47] <notchris> ayyy
[18:34:49] <toxictype> chrisf what am I suppsed to look for? There's no errors.
[18:34:53] <toxictype> glGetError() is 0
[18:35:01] <chrisf> inspect the GL state
[18:35:41] <toxictype> How?
[18:35:42] <chrisf> run it through qapitrace, look at the GL state *at the call that's misbehaving*
[18:35:43] <toxictype> Where?
[18:35:52] <chrisf> or whatever other graphics debugger you like
[18:36:22] <chrisf> you have some assumption that's wrong
[18:36:33] <toxictype> Does visual studio have a graphics debugger?
[18:36:39] <chrisf> not for GL
[18:36:45] <toxictype> Then I can't.
[18:37:22] <chrisf> https://apitrace.github.io/#download
[18:39:04] <toxictype> chrisf, where do I look for what and how?
[18:39:49] <chrisf> toxictype: the idea is it intercepts all your GL use and makes a recording. you can then replay to a particular call and see the whole GL state at that point
[18:40:07] <toxictype> Which point should I look at?
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[18:40:15] <chrisf> the draw that's not working
[18:40:26] <LastTalon> toxictype, the thing that's going wrong. The idea is that you can actually see what its doing rather than guessing.
[18:40:37] <chrisf> perhaps new plan: go get some sleep, and do this tomorrow
[18:40:39] <toxictype> Right.
[18:40:46] <toxictype> No I have to get this done.
[18:41:03] <chrisf> you've been bashing rocks together for 20h, apparently
[18:41:10] <toxictype> Make me stop.
[18:42:49] <mijowh> https://xkcd.com/1700/
[18:44:14] <chrisf> eh, it's your time.
[18:44:31] <notchris> I wish I was better at Blender
[18:44:38] <notchris> or a different editor
[18:44:50] <toxictype> https://snag.gy/iEV0wl.jpg what do I do with this?
[18:45:20] <mijowh> uninstall windows
[18:46:18] <toxictype> There is no glBegin() in it.
[18:46:48] <toxictype> chrisf
[18:46:49] <chrisf> toxictype: did the path you're interested in actually *run* during the capture session?
[18:47:01] <toxictype> It opened and closed my app.
[18:48:09] <chrisf> your app should have run as normal (although possibly slightly slower)
[18:48:16] <toxictype> uh
[18:48:28] <chrisf> if it closed by itself then something is different about how you launched it
[18:48:33] <toxictype> I'll run it from somewhere else.
[18:49:10] <toxictype> It opened my app and then this happened
[18:49:22] <toxictype> https://snag.gy/cS76bZ.jpg
[18:49:34] <toxictype> Shows up frame 0 with 2708 calls.
[18:50:09] <WarauSalesman> oh! he is back
[18:50:24] <mijowh> delete context, create context, delete context, create context - all in one frame - does that seem odd to anybody else?
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[18:51:06] <chrisf> mijowh: not particularly. this is the wgl dance
[18:51:20] <toxictype> So what now?
[18:51:23] <mijowh> ah ok, i dont use windows
[18:51:26] <WarauSalesman> the typical case of a copy paste coder
[18:51:34] <mijowh> my context exists throughout lifetime of app
[18:51:37] <mijowh> in glx
[18:51:43] <chrisf> toxictype: did it actually get as far as rendering normal frames?
[18:51:45] <WarauSalesman> yup! why destroying contexts?
[18:51:48] <mijowh> that just seemed weird
[18:51:48] <toxictype> No.
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[18:52:32] <chrisf> mijowh: WarauSalesman: with wgl there is a dance required at startup to determine window system MSAA capabilities
[18:52:43] <mijowh> interesting
[18:52:49] <WarauSalesman> yeah! after this dance, the music goes on
[18:53:09] <WarauSalesman> and it is the same old boring opengl
[18:53:12] <chrisf> window system MSAA itself is an abomination
[18:53:29] <toxictype> What do I do?
[18:53:31] <chrisf> but SDL does the probing for it anyway
[18:53:41] <chrisf> toxictype: figure out why your app didnt even start properly
[18:53:49] <toxictype> There's no error!
[18:54:03] <WarauSalesman> imagine someone who has to work with him
[18:54:27] <toxictype> Oh no wit there is pparently.
[18:55:11] <toxictype> https://snag.gy/Yc4R5b.jpg
[18:55:15] <chrisf> thing i would be initially suspicious of is a difference in working directory from how you normally run it
[18:55:51] <toxictype> I put all the files in a directory and ran the game from there it worked fine until I ran the trace.
[18:56:16] <chrisf> are you setting the working directory to that same directory?
[18:56:19] <LastTalon> mijowh, I still quite like this one https://xkcd.com/612/
[18:56:23] <toxictype> Should I? One sec.
[18:56:24] <chrisf> you're getting an access violation.
[18:56:28] <mijowh> hehe
[18:56:58] <toxictype> Worked this time.
[18:57:10] <mijowh> output?
[18:57:10] <chrisf> my working theory is you failed to load something and it all blew up from there.
[18:57:41] <toxictype> So what now?
[18:57:43] <WarauSalesman> :D
[18:57:46] <WarauSalesman> FIX MY COOOODE!
[18:57:50] <wedr> Google Stadia will now have a submarket on the platform. You, part of a gameplay support team, will get paid to help players finish or complete a challenging obstacle in the game, before returning the game back to the player.
[18:57:53] <LastTalon> And this one always makes me laugh. https://xkcd.com/246/
[18:57:54] * wedr hmmms
[18:57:59] <chrisf> toxictype: find your draw.
[18:58:33] <LastTalon> wedr, paid to play games for people?
[18:58:42] <chrisf> when you do, double-click on it to get the state snapshot
[18:58:43] <wedr> LastTalon: Yes
[18:58:50] <LastTalon> Sure, sign me up. :P
[18:58:54] <WarauSalesman> everyone does it for free
[18:58:55] <wedr> Google Stadia
[18:58:57] <wedr> :D
[18:59:00] <mijowh> LastTalon: often the best part of xkcds is the mouseover tooltip
[18:59:04] <chrisf> inspect the GL state, see what's not as you expect, apply palm to face
[18:59:07] <LastTalon> mijowh, right?
[18:59:12] <WarauSalesman> now they are hiring people to beat the games for them?
[18:59:39] <mijowh> what a job
[19:00:29] <LastTalon> https://www.xkcd.com/303/
[19:00:42] <mijowh> hehe
[19:00:50] <mijowh> i need to work on my compile times
[19:00:52] <LastTalon> This is the reason to use C++ :P
[19:01:09] <WarauSalesman> :)
[19:01:11] <WarauSalesman> C++ rules
[19:01:14] <toxictype> Found i.
[19:01:15] <mijowh> building from a full clean state is a solid 10 minutes
[19:01:22] <toxictype> https://snag.gy/XRON2L.jpg
[19:01:25] <toxictype> What do I do with this?
[19:01:27] <mijowh> ofc, almost entirely engine
[19:01:37] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, shove it
[19:02:09] <chrisf> toxictype: grab the state snapshot from it, look through it, figure out what is wrong.
[19:02:46] <LastTalon> Wake up, sheeple. https://xkcd.com/202/
[19:03:04] <toxictype> https://snag.gy/Rwebiz.jpg
[19:03:04] <chrisf> LastTalon: you've exceeded your XKCD/hour quota
[19:03:07] <toxictype> Looks about right.
[19:03:09] <LastTalon> Darn.
[19:03:19] <LastTalon> How much will it cost me for premium?
[19:03:27] <WarauSalesman> ziiiiip
[19:03:30] <mijowh> "if NASA was willing to fake great accomplishments, they would have had a second one by now"
[19:04:10] <chrisf> toxictype: i would be particularly interested in the modelview and projection matrices
[19:04:29] <chrisf> and whatever the current program (4?) does there.
[19:04:52] <chrisf> you can see the shaders bound in the shaders tab
[19:04:56] <toxictype> https://snag.gy/1cNm6z.jpg
[19:04:58] <toxictype> Looks good to me.
[19:05:56] <chrisf> expand GL_PROJECTION_MATRIX etc and you can see the matrix itself
[19:06:13] <toxictype> https://snag.gy/z136cR.jpg
[19:06:32] <toxictype> I don't know if it's messed up or not.
[19:06:39] <mijowh> this might belong in ##opengl, did you try there?
[19:06:45] <toxictype> Yes for the second time.
[19:06:54] <mijowh> i didnt hear the first
[19:07:06] <toxictype> Asked again.
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[19:13:17] <toxictype> chrisf I tried calling glOrtho() before glBegin but got a black   screen.
[19:17:14] <notchris> gonna do some gamedev tonight :D
[19:17:23] <mijowh> do it
[19:17:30] <mijowh> all. night. long.
[19:17:35] <brainzap> is this a challenge
[19:17:59] <warweasle> notchris: Yea!
[19:18:04] <warweasle> Gamedev is life.
[19:18:22] <WarauSalesman> I did some yesterday
[19:18:27] <mijowh> i have to take a break from devving, got midterms in a week and gotta prepare for that :/
[19:18:28] <WarauSalesman> I am creating a class for "game widgets"
[19:18:41] <WarauSalesman> to display things from model. kinda a poorman MVC implementation
[19:18:55] <WarauSalesman> remaning lives, score, player weapon...
[19:19:22] <WarauSalesman> these widgets aren't part of the game loop. they only redraw themselves when they have to
[19:19:22] <brainzap> I need to build some hardware ESP32 stuff
[19:20:02] <brainzap> WarauSalesman: will you end up will a fully reactive system
[19:20:08] <WarauSalesman> heh :D
[19:20:17] <WarauSalesman> my bias is to delegate all the game configs to Lua scripts
[19:20:25] <mijowh> i need to modify my renderer to not use VAO on webgl contexts (unsupported on older gpus, like my laptop) and rather populate VBO and IBO objects manually in those cases where vaos arent supported
[19:20:29] <WarauSalesman> so that's why I am making my classes ignorant of what they actually need to do
[19:21:20] <WarauSalesman> mijowh, my CG is old and rusty. VBOs are the replacement for FBOs, right? and what is a VAO?
[19:21:32] <WarauSalesman> I also don't recognize IBO
[19:21:33] <solidfox> WOOHOO I FINALLY UNLOCKED STEALTH IN MGS2
[19:21:50] <solidfox> took me like a whole 4 or 5 days grinding and collecting dog tags
[19:21:51] <mijowh> vao is Vertax Array Object, basically a gl object that encapsulates VBO (vertex buffer object) and IBO (index buffer object)
[19:22:01] <mijowh> like, the memory storage for meshes
[19:22:04] <WarauSalesman> oohhh
[19:22:11] <WarauSalesman> I had to do this shit by hand
[19:22:17] <WarauSalesman> now we can just store them in the GPU?
[19:22:25] <mijowh> a vao can be created and have vbos/ibos bound to it for coords, positions, indices, etc. then you can jsut bind the vao once while drawing
[19:22:28] <WarauSalesman> splurt
[19:22:35] <mijowh> instead of each buffer individually
[19:22:41] <mijowh> its quite convenient, and better performance
[19:22:42] <chrisf> WarauSalesman: framebuffers are collections of render target state. vertex buffers and index buffers are two uses of buffers, which are just linear chunks of memory owned by the driver (and when profitable, living on the GPU)
[19:22:50] <WarauSalesman> in 2005, I was thrilled of dealing with FBOs
[19:22:54] <mijowh> however some system dont support vaos but do support vbo/ibo
[19:23:01] <mijowh> like my laptop.
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[19:23:14] <chrisf> WarauSalesman: vaos are collections of vertex fetch state
[19:23:15] <WarauSalesman> chrisf, yeah! I get it now :) impressive how the GPUs are getting high level now
[19:23:55] <mijowh> yeah so i need to intentionally NOT use vaos in certain cases
[19:24:08] * mijowh is backtracking slightly
[19:24:12] <WarauSalesman> then you do the vao functionality manually
[19:24:17] <notchris> I'm wondering if there is a way to run JS native
[19:24:22] <notchris> And not be bound by browser limits
[19:24:28] <notchris> Doing some research today
[19:24:29] <WarauSalesman> notchris, you can always embed V8
[19:24:34] <WarauSalesman> in your APPS
[19:24:37] <notchris> Oh?
[19:24:45] <WarauSalesman> local client based apps :)
[19:25:02] <WarauSalesman> if you want to run in the browser, then you need to obey the browser boundaries
[19:25:04] <notchris> Will it have a significant performance increase compared to a browser app?
[19:25:14] <notchris> Also, do you have a link to information on that
[19:25:15] <notchris> :D
[19:25:17] <WarauSalesman> V8 is quite fast, but I don't know the answer for that
[19:25:19] <defk0n> How are games even possible, std:vector has a insert rate
[19:25:28] <defk0n> of like 250k inserts per second
[19:25:29] <WarauSalesman> probably is around. people were embedding V8 for a long time
[19:25:38] <WarauSalesman> defk0n, wtf
[19:25:52] <defk0n> 1920x1080 = 2 million points
[19:26:02] <brainzap> What do you want to build notchris
[19:26:02] <WarauSalesman> ok you are dumb
[19:26:09] <notchris> So the idea is
[19:26:17] <defk0n> haha
[19:26:20] <defk0n> im joking ofc
[19:26:21] <notchris> I want to use Three.js natively
[19:26:24] <WarauSalesman> :D
[19:26:26] <WarauSalesman> nice one
[19:26:28] <notchris> but not be bound by browser caps
[19:26:29] <mijowh> hah
[19:26:31] <mijowh> good troll
[19:26:32] <chrisf> WarauSalesman: be nice. defk0n: "by not doing that"
[19:26:47] <WarauSalesman> notchris, I think it can run in an embedded V8, but IDK about the required dependencies
[19:26:51] <notchris> hmm
[19:27:12] <WarauSalesman> https://v8.dev/docs/embed
[19:27:27] <mijowh> embed v8 in your native app to execute javascript
[19:27:34] <mijowh> compile native app to javascript using emscripten
[19:27:38] <mijowh> run app inside itself
[19:27:45] <defk0n> i made a graph library that has a insert rate of 291461Nodes/Second, and a get rate of 484934Get Nodes/Second
[19:27:48] <brainzap> notchris: worlds best programmer worked on this, just use it until it does not perform
[19:28:32] <WarauSalesman> notchris, try to make a hello world in C++ (or in your dumb language of preference) with V8 to understand the basics of embedding. should be easy
[19:28:37] <notchris> Ahhhh
[19:28:38] <WarauSalesman> then you can try to include Three.js
[19:28:42] <notchris> Thank you WarauSalesman
[19:28:44] <notchris> brainzap: huh?
[19:29:16] <brainzap> you want to use webgl with three.js?
[19:29:50] <notchris> it already uses webgl
[19:30:17] <defk0n> but seriously if you made a pixel shader in software you wouldnt be able to do it. std vector = 250k inserts/second. 1920x1080 = 2 million RGB structs
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[19:30:58] <notchris> brainzap: whos the worlds best programmer haha
[19:31:22] <brainzap> Robert Pike
[19:31:37] <notchris> hmm i dont know him
[19:32:01] <mijowh> ada lovelace
[19:32:43] <mijowh> the OG programmer
[19:33:24] <R2robot> John Carmack
[19:34:22] <brainzap> Jonathan Blow
[19:34:32] <Serpent7776> +1 for Ada Lovelace
[19:34:41] <notchris> didnt she do like
[19:34:43] <notchris> nasa stuff
[19:34:46] <wedr> She died
[19:34:47] <wedr> :(
[19:34:54] <mijowh> she was well before nasa
[19:35:00] <notchris> ahh
[19:35:05] <R2robot> ada 'programmed' a computer before computers actually existed
[19:35:26] <notchris> cool!
[19:35:26] <mijowh> "She was the first to recognise that  the machine had applications beyond pure calculation, and published the  first algorithm intended to be carried out by such a machine. As a  result, she is sometimes regarded as the first to recognise the full  potential of a "computing machine" and the first computer programmer."
[19:35:30] <mijowh> shameless copypaste
[19:35:39] * R2robot will allow it
[19:35:50] <notchris> So
[19:35:55] <notchris> I'f im using embedded v8
[19:36:15] <notchris> I wont be limited by browser memory caps, etc?
[19:36:44] <brainzap> normal browsers use 16gb
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[19:37:33] <WarauSalesman> +1 Ada
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[19:37:45] <WarauSalesman> she really modeled the basics
[19:37:51] <WarauSalesman> there is also Von Neumann
[19:38:13] <WarauSalesman> notchris, you will to figure out the "embedding parameters"
[19:38:19] <WarauSalesman> probably there are lots of ways to do it
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[19:39:09] <toxictype> This is bullshit nothing works .
[19:39:22] <mijowh> burn it down
[19:39:25] <brainzap> Whats the problem?
[19:39:40] <toxictype> I can't draw anything 3D not even in immediate mode
[19:39:45] <mijowh> hes having an issue with rendering a triangle in immediate mode gl
[19:39:57] <toxictype> It won't rotate correctly.
[19:40:15] <mijowh> "not even in immediate mode" you only use immediate mode.
[19:40:17] <toxictype> Amongst other things.
[19:40:27] <toxictype> what the fuck ever.
[19:40:43] <toxictype> I want to get it working in immediate mode to see it works in the first place then we can start talking.
[19:41:19] <mijowh> honestly, you shouldnt bother learning immediate mode gl even. its obsolete, only used nowadays when porting old legacy projects
[19:41:28] <toxictype> I don't give a shit right now.
[19:41:28] <mijowh> designing a new app using it is kinda counterproductive
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[19:42:18] <toxictype> Assume I'm using a vertex buffer or something and tell me why I can't get 3D.
[19:42:40] <mijowh> then id ask to see your shader and buffer objects
[19:42:56] <mijowh> its probably be alot easier to figure out tbh. alot of newer devs arent familiar with immediate mode quirks
[19:42:57] <toxictype> Assume they're moot.
[19:43:14] <mijowh> i know im not familiar enough with the api to be helpful
[19:43:25] <toxictype> It's not because I'm drawing immediate mode.
[19:43:31] <mijowh> im not saying it is
[19:43:34] <toxictype> Buffers didn't work either shadeless or not.
[19:47:22] <WarauSalesman> if you don't give a shit, then your code also won't
[19:47:43] <WarauSalesman> start over, start small
[19:47:46] <defk0n> i kinda like immediate mode
[19:47:49] <defk0n> its like imgui
[19:47:57] <wedr> imgur?
[19:48:07] <LastTalon> Charles Babbage?
[19:48:12] <wedr> (☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞
[19:48:12] <defk0n> https://github.com/ocornut/imgui
[19:48:12] <WarauSalesman> you are overwhelmed by the side effects of your huge messy code
[19:48:13] * LastTalon likes naming people, too
[19:48:51] <defk0n> imgui is amazing
[19:48:53] <defk0n> tbh
[19:50:03] <wedr> imgui = I'm Massively Going Under Indebtedness
[19:50:10] <wedr> (A joke I heard in the past)
[19:50:17] <LastTalon> Is that like hodl?
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[19:53:20] <R2robot> GUYS! I did so much gamedev yesterday, I knocked 11 years off my estimated completion time. It's now only 3.2 years instead of 14.2 years! :D
[19:53:46] <mijowh> code like a speed freak
[19:53:49] <LastTalon> We did it! Mission accomplished!
[19:54:00] <LastTalon> Time for celebration.
[19:54:20] <R2robot> \(´▽`)/
[19:54:29] <R2robot> https://snag.gy/HORgQd.jpg lol
[19:55:13] <mijowh> how can that possibly give you an accurate estimate of how long tasks will take?
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[19:55:43] <mijowh> i mean, tasks may differ alot, you might take a week off here and there or do 10 years of work in one night
[19:55:45] <R2robot> it's not very accurate obviously. it's using the # of tasks and how many tasks you close daily
[19:55:51] <mijowh> its like the windows file system timer
[19:55:56] <mijowh> dont even bother reading it lol
[19:56:09] <R2robot> yeah, it's just sillyness :D
[19:57:11] <mijowh> i like to keep track of my sloccount over time personally, i like to see the numbers grow :P
[19:57:24] <mijowh> even though i know it doesnt represent reality 100%
[19:58:21] <R2robot> :D
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[19:59:16] <mijowh> http://i.imgur.com/8MHofWL.png
[19:59:53] <R2robot> hmmm
[20:00:10] <brainzap> mmh?
[20:00:29] <defk0n> mhm
[20:00:36] <mijowh> hrmph
[20:00:40] <pulse> https://i.imgur.com/9c20CXx.jpg
[20:00:52] <brainzap> i knew we would attract pulse
[20:01:27] <brainzap> bring out the onions
[20:01:33] <toxictype> Why does my triangle rotateso weird
[20:01:48] <toxictype> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tPq4A967h8&feature=youtu.be
[20:01:48] <mijowh> math
[20:01:51] <toxictype> Top left corner.
[20:02:15] <toxictype> https://wandbox.org/permlink/bEiTnC7ABNpsNUAT
[20:03:09] <pulse> bad, that's a bad triangle
[20:03:19] <toxictype> How do I fix this?
[20:03:36] <pulse> don't draw tirnalge
[20:03:36] <WarauSalesman> make a good one
[20:03:43] <mijowh> math
[20:03:51] <toxictype> Can you be more specific?
[20:04:03] <mijowh> prob your projection matrix
[20:04:11] <toxictype> How do I fix it?
[20:04:12] <mijowh> it looks like
[20:04:25] <mijowh> idk, im not sure how matrices work in that api
[20:04:37] <mijowh> but thats what it looks like
[20:04:38] <toxictype> I already tried glOrtho() and shit.
[20:05:55] <mijowh> http://ogldev.atspace.co.uk/
[20:06:08] <mijowh> burn it down
[20:07:12] <toxictype> Nothing useful.
[20:09:08] <Twipply> Isn't that OpenGL 1?
[20:09:14] <mijowh> you say youve been at this near 24 hours. you should take a nap and recharge.
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[20:10:26] <R2robot> it's amazing how many times i've figured things out within minutes after walking away for a bit
[20:10:28] <Twipply> Also, are you sure you want to try rotating around the y axis?
[20:10:33] <Twipply> Why not the Z axis?
[20:10:40] <brainzap> i remember when I made my first triangle, it was 2009 on mac, making a window with opengl context
[20:10:49] <Twipply> Assuming you want to rotate in the same plane as the screen
[20:11:02] <mijowh> i remember my first triangle too
[20:11:11] <mijowh> 2012-2013 ish
[20:11:15] <Twipply> Also also, don't you want to rotate before you translate?
[20:12:09] <mijowh> using glfw to handle the windowing for me
[20:12:22] <Twipply> toxictype ^
[20:12:31] <mijowh> think i was following some youtube series makinggameswithben i think it was called
[20:12:34] <mijowh> so long ago, idk
[20:12:53] <mijowh> its nice to think how far ive come
[20:13:46] <toxictype> It stopped drawing the triangle again.
[20:14:20] <Twipply> Any replies to my comments on the way?
[20:14:38] <mijowh> no
[20:14:50] <toxictype> As soon as I change a z coordinate it won't draw.
[20:15:00] <WarauSalesman> you really like to be stressed and miserable
[20:15:03] <Twipply> My bad for trying to help then
[20:15:18] <toxictype> I'm fucking loving this.
[20:15:24] <mijowh> no you arent
[20:15:36] <WarauSalesman> you like pain? yeah, right
[20:15:50] <WarauSalesman> anyway, you are being awfully inefficient
[20:15:53] <toxictype> Now wht?
[20:16:04] <mijowh> what do you mean now what?
[20:16:08] <mijowh> thats up to you
[20:16:15] <toxictype> I'm asking you.
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[20:16:22] <Twipply> I'm actually really surprised at how you got the rest of that game to render when a spinning triangle is so tough
[20:16:35] <WarauSalesman> he is a copy paste programmer
[20:16:36] <toxictype> Because I didn't touch the z coordinate.
[20:16:39] <toxictype> Fuck off.
[20:16:41] <WarauSalesman> he has no fucking clue of what is happening
[20:16:57] <WarauSalesman> he can't even debug the parts separately
[20:17:18] <Twipply> Can't reply to my suggestions in IRC, can continue to complain that it's broken
[20:17:20] <Twipply> Interesting
[20:17:28] <toxictype> I missed them I was busy.
[20:17:32] <WarauSalesman> lol
[20:17:35] <WarauSalesman> LOOOL
[20:17:40] <WarauSalesman> busy complaining
[20:17:49] <Twipply> <Twipply> toxictype ^
[20:17:51] <mijowh> for us to really be helpful, wed need to spend the time to dig through your 2700 lines of disorganized code using an obsolete api that nobody uses anymore. thats not going to happen. we can answer specific, well framed questions. but "what is wrong help me fix" type questions only really apply to code blocks less than 100 lines that can be understood easily enough for us to actually help
[20:17:56] <Twipply> The power of IRC is that it's based on text
[20:17:57] <WarauSalesman> I WAS BUSY BEING A RANTING NEEDY BRAT
[20:18:03] <notchris> BACK
[20:18:03] <toxictype> I told you which parts of the code do what.
[20:18:06] <Twipply> since 1995 we've had scroll wheels on our mice too
[20:18:11] <Twipply> it lets you go back up and read things over and over
[20:18:15] <Twipply> even if you missed them initially
[20:18:24] <toxictype> It only works if I rotate around the Z axis.
[20:18:27] <toxictype> Then it's nice.
[20:18:28] <Twipply> combine that with the ping I sent you and we're all good
[20:18:33] <toxictype> Or if I translate along x or y.
[20:18:43] <WarauSalesman> mijowh, for me, such questions don't even apply for the smallest pieces of code
[20:18:54] <WarauSalesman> I really don't like this mindless "fix my code" attitude
[20:19:04] <Twipply> So, any replies to my suggestions yet?
[20:19:09] <mijowh> i dont mind it when its like, language questions
[20:19:15] <WarauSalesman> mijowh, these are ok
[20:19:18] <WarauSalesman> language, api, etc.
[20:19:34] <WarauSalesman> but "my code does not work". "fix it"
[20:19:37] <WarauSalesman> this is not ok
[20:19:51] <Twipply> I assume we do just want a triangle spinning around its center in the top left corner, right?
[20:19:55] <toxictype> I tried what you said and it's still fucked.
[20:19:55] <toxictype> Yes.
[20:20:05] <Twipply> "I tried what you said"
[20:20:06] <toxictype> Preferably a cube but you know.
[20:20:07] <Twipply> Proof of such would be nice
[20:20:10] <Twipply> pastebin, etc
[20:20:17] <toxictype> Rotating around a different axis?
[20:20:29] <WarauSalesman> Twipply, I tried similar approaches with him. The answers I got were "I tried everything" or "if I do it, it will work. now fix my code"
[20:20:30] <Twipply> I also suggested you rotate before you translate
[20:20:48] <mijowh> i suggested you burn it down and use the programmable pipeline
[20:20:51] <mijowh> but vOv
[20:21:12] <mijowh> (02:48:12 PM) WarauSalesman: you are overwhelmed by the side effects of your huge messy code
[20:21:14] <Twipply> WarauSalesman I like trying to help, it makes me think that one day someone will come help me with something D;
[20:21:15] <mijowh> well said
[20:21:21] <notchris> :(
[20:21:37] <toxictype> https://wandbox.org/permlink/IR6lEsnyNea8Jv9y
[20:21:39] <Twipply> Really though, OpenGL 1 in this day and age
[20:21:40] <toxictype> It's still fucked.
[20:21:42] <Twipply> Perhaps not so wise
[20:21:48] <toxictype> I put him on ignore.
[20:22:02] <Twipply> You just switched to the x axis buddy boy
[20:22:06] <Twipply> Unless I'm quite mistaken
[20:22:08] <Twipply> x, y, z
[20:22:10] <toxictype> It doesn't draw.
[20:23:15] <wedr> toxictype: Where's your "glLoadIdentity(), glMatrixMode(GL_PROJECTION) and glMatrixMode(GL_MODELVIEW)" at?
[20:23:30] <toxictype> One moment.
[20:23:30] <mijowh> (03:16:21 PM) Twipply: I'm actually really surprised at how you got the rest of that game to render when a spinning triangle is so tough
[20:23:34] <mijowh> right?
[20:23:41] <toxictype> BECAUSE I DIDNT TOUCHE THE Z COORDINATE HELLO
[20:23:52] <Twipply> Did you try actually rotating around the Z axis?
[20:23:54] <WarauSalesman> lol
[20:24:02] * WarauSalesman fucks toxictype in the ass
[20:24:04] <toxictype> Yes.
[20:24:06] <Twipply> You went from Y to X
[20:24:10] <Twipply> Did you change to Z?
[20:24:12] <toxictype> Then it rotates fine.
[20:24:14] <pulse> https://imgur.com/a/dN96m54
[20:24:28] <mijowh> lol pulse
[20:24:31] * wedr creates Space Jump meme
[20:24:32] <Twipply> So it rotates fine? What else is wrong with it now?
[20:24:44] <toxictype> If I don't touch the z coordinate it's fine.
[20:24:59] <toxictype> I've been trying to get that across for hours.
[20:25:06] <toxictype> https://wandbox.org/permlink/HfNOOIOjqPQ51MoX
[20:25:11] <WarauSalesman> I know the answer, but since I am ignored, I can't help you
[20:25:11] <toxictype> Before the update loop.
[20:25:37] <toxictype> Inside the update loop
[20:25:37] <toxictype> https://wandbox.org/permlink/LqXjYeysgrreWr3M
[20:25:51] <notchris> cool
[20:25:52] <WarauSalesman> this motherfucker is taking over the whole channel :(
[20:25:53] <notchris> is static float like
[20:25:55] <notchris> function() in js?
[20:26:09] <mijowh> its okay WarauSalesman, we arent very interesting anyway
[20:26:13] <mijowh> and i wanna see where this goes
[20:26:21] <Twipply> Still gotta wonder if we're rotating around the z axis yet
[20:26:55] <notchris> Oh I had a question
[20:26:55] <toxictype> Do you want me to post a video of it?
[20:27:01] <notchris> Im applying force to a 2d body
[20:27:10] <notchris> How do i normalize force if
[20:27:13] <Twipply> Just the glRotatef line would suffice in regards to that
[20:27:15] <notchris> they are going both in the x and y position
[20:27:22] <toxictype> https://snag.gy/bR3JgD.jpg
[20:27:25] <WarauSalesman> notchris, but force is a vector
[20:27:26] <toxictype> Rotating around z
[20:27:29] <mijowh> just normalize the vector
[20:27:31] <WarauSalesman> yeah
[20:27:32] <notchris> WarauSalesman: Right
[20:27:33] <wedr> notchris: Towards (X, Y)?
[20:27:39] <notchris> Yeah so one sec
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[20:27:52] <Twipply> Hard to say what's wrong with just a screenshot
[20:27:58] <toxictype> I told you
[20:28:00] <toxictype> for the fourth time
[20:28:03] <toxictype> if i rotate around z
[20:28:04] <toxictype> its fine
[20:28:07] <toxictype> as depicted here
[20:28:10] <WarauSalesman> I TOLD YOU
[20:28:10] <toxictype> as requested by you
[20:28:14] <Twipply> So what's the problemo? :^)
[20:28:18] <toxictype> Fuck you.
[20:28:24] <WarauSalesman> hue hue hue
[20:28:26] <toxictype> I need Z.
[20:28:30] <Twipply> Dunno what to help with if I/we don't know the problem
[20:28:34] <WarauSalesman> this guy is fantastic
[20:28:40] <toxictype> IT DOES NOT DRAW IF Z IS NONZERO
[20:28:45] <Twipply> Gasp
[20:28:48] <WarauSalesman> ofc not
[20:28:54] <toxictype> You're fucking trolling right now.
[20:28:55] <Twipply> If depth is the issue, why were you rotating around the x axis and such?
[20:28:58] <WarauSalesman> you are retarded. you don't know what is a plane
[20:28:59] <Twipply> Big questions in life
[20:29:01] <notchris> WarauSalesman mijowh wedr https://hastebin.com/ugucilekim.js
[20:29:02] <toxictype> To see if it works.
[20:29:05] <notchris> thats my movement function
[20:29:16] <WarauSalesman> brb in 30 min. then I'll check it
[20:29:17] <Twipply> I'm throwing my money on z fighting or being behind the camera
[20:29:19] <toxictype> (it doesn't)
[20:29:29] <Twipply> or just being behind the rest of the scene I suppose
[20:29:35] <toxictype> I already pasted all the relevant code.
[20:29:39] <notchris> ty WarauSalesman
[20:29:41] <toxictype> Where all of that is or isn't set up.
[20:30:24] <wedr> notchris: ((xt - x) / x^2 + y^2, (yt - y) / x^2 + y^2)    or something..... ugh....
[20:30:34] <wedr> there was this math where you calculate the distance.
[20:30:34] <notchris> :X
[20:30:46] <wedr> And then you move the unit by the unit length
[20:30:52] <wedr> normalize the vector
[20:31:19] <toxictype> Twipply so?
[20:31:31] <notchris> hmm did you see the example wedr ?
[20:32:06] <Twipply> If that is the issue I'd try make sure you're rendering the triangle in front of the rest of the scene
[20:32:10] <wedr> yeah, it doesn't ring any bells for me. :(
[20:32:10] <Twipply> so I'd check the Z values
[20:32:18] <toxictype> I am.
[20:32:25] <toxictype> Everything else is an SDL_Texture.
[20:32:37] <Twipply> Oh yeah? What Z coordinate is it drawn at?
[20:32:59] <toxictype> Okay just to prove you wrong I'm going to remove the code that draws the map.
[20:33:16] <Twipply> I don't think I made any statements to even be right or wrong, but okay
[20:33:57] <wedr> toxictype: If Z is nonzero, perhaps the texture being draw was culled from the camera's frustrum?
[20:37:21] <toxictype> Now if I try to draw the triangle it draws black even though I set glColor4f to red.
[20:37:30] <toxictype> Before drawing it. It's red for one frame and goes black.
[20:37:35] <Twipply> You're not good at this question and answer thing
[20:37:40] <Twipply> <Twipply> Oh yeah? What Z coordinate is it drawn at?
[20:38:15] <toxictype> I HAVEN'T GOTTEN THERE YET OKAY
[20:38:23] <Twipply> You're already drawing the texture
[20:38:25] <Twipply> So yes, you have
[20:38:30] <Twipply> All you gotta do is go and read the value for me
[20:38:33] <toxictype> I'm trying to draw
[20:38:35] <toxictype> the triangle
[20:38:36] <toxictype> red
[20:38:40] <Twipply> Don't care
[20:38:40] <toxictype> so it stands out from the background
[20:38:43] <toxictype> but it's red for one frame
[20:38:46] <Twipply> I asked for the z coordinate for the texture
[20:38:51] <toxictype> Fucking zero
[20:38:54] <toxictype> I don't know.
[20:39:00] <Twipply> You're the one that wrote the code
[20:39:05] <Twipply> Can't you just go read the value?
[20:39:09] <toxictype> SDL_Texture does not take z coordinates.
[20:39:15] <toxictype> When rendering.
[20:39:25] <Twipply> SDL is 2D isn't it?
[20:39:25] <toxictype> It takes a 2D rectangle.
[20:39:27] <Twipply> Specifically?
[20:39:29] <toxictype> Yes.
[20:39:38] <toxictype> But APPARENTLY it can also do GL at the same time.
[20:39:43] <Twipply> Weird huh
[20:39:46] <toxictype> Like shaders.
[20:39:54] <toxictype> Shaders work if z = 0
[20:40:01] <toxictype> For each vertex.
[20:40:01] <mijowh> sdl does provide access to the glcontext
[20:40:01] <warweasle> SDL uses opengl to do it work...in some cases.
[20:40:12] <Twipply> In that case, my best shot would be to draw the triangle at z=-1 or so and then make sure your camera is back
[20:40:12] <mijowh> toxic, you arent using shaders so dont say that
[20:40:15] <mijowh> youll confuse the issue
[20:40:54] <Twipply> Uhh, +1 rather
[20:41:10] <mijowh> and you asked about the Z coord issue, which twipply is attempting to help you with very patiently. dont just switch it up to a texture thing now. one issue at a time
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[20:41:51] <Twipply> Another day if fighting with my ECS ineptitude today
[20:41:53] <Twipply> of*
[20:41:55] <toxictype> I'm just saying I just discovered that it turns black after the first frame.
[20:42:03] <mijowh> that is odd indeed
[20:42:11] <mijowh> but irrelevant to z location
[20:42:27] <Twipply> Use vulkan instead, much better
[20:42:32] <mijowh> oh geez dont say that
[20:42:35] <mijowh> hehe
[20:43:20] <mijowh> i mean, learning vulkan and doing that, would be the ideal way to truly learn and understand rendering
[20:43:27] <mijowh> but thats a very tall order
[20:43:30] <mijowh> its a hell of an api
[20:43:44] <mijowh> well, not 'hell' in the negative sense. its very well designed
[20:44:00] <wedr> still hell
[20:44:04] <mijowh> heh
[20:44:34] <Twipply> I still have no idea how to get a list of components and such
[20:44:45] <Twipply> ECS life so tough
[20:45:09] <toxictype> Fuck this I give up.
[20:45:37] <Twipply> Yay, now everyone can help me with my issue instead
[20:45:42] <mijowh> take a breather/nap and come back to it later toxic
[20:45:47] <toxictype> No.
[20:45:53] <mijowh> suit yourself
[20:45:57] <toxictype> There's no reason for it to act like this
[20:45:59] <toxictype> I tried EVERYTHING
[20:46:05] <toxictype> For like 22 hours straight.
[20:46:06] <mijowh> yes there is a reason
[20:46:10] <toxictype> No there is not.
[20:46:12] <R2robot> lol
[20:46:18] <mijowh> and no you didnt try everything, because theres an infinite number of things to try
[20:46:20] <R2robot> oh my
[20:46:24] <toxictype> I don't care.
[20:46:25] <mijowh> there is ALWAYS a reason
[20:46:29] <Twipply> Sadly when it comes to programming, every single time there's an issue - it inevitably ends up being the programmer
[20:46:31] <toxictype> Find it then I don't care anymore.
[20:46:32] <Twipply> 'cept when it's not
[20:46:34] <Twipply> but it mostly is
[20:46:48] <R2robot> you'll never be a programmer with that give up attitude. :D
[20:46:51] <mijowh> ^
[20:46:53] <toxictype> 22 hours.
[20:46:57] <R2robot> go sleep it off
[20:47:03] <toxictype> I'm on meth.
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[20:47:07] <mijowh> you think every single person here hasnt banged their head off a wall at some point?
[20:47:20] <mijowh> oh. thats the problem, then
[20:47:21] <Twipply> That feel when 8 hours debugging a 0 that should've been a 1
[20:47:35] <toxictype> I have a feeling that you can't do 3D on top of SDL.
[20:47:40] <R2robot> Twipply hah, yeah
[20:47:41] <mijowh> you can.
[20:47:58] <toxictype> Clearly there is evidence to the contrary or would you like to contenst that statement?
[20:48:06] <R2robot> Valve is using SDL on all their linux/mac ports
[20:48:07] <mijowh> your failure to do so is not evidence
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[20:48:15] <mijowh> and what r2 said, they use sdl
[20:48:17] <toxictype> I have definitive proof.
[20:48:21] <mijowh> lots of studios do
[20:48:25] <mijowh> its fairly common
[20:48:29] <toxictype> It cannot be done no way.
[20:48:30] <Twipply> Why did you even want to change the z value toxictype?
[20:48:32] <toxictype> They use hacks.
[20:48:38] <toxictype> I want to make a pick up item a 3D model.
[20:48:48] <R2robot> lol
[20:49:03] <Twipply> If you want lots of 3D stuff, was using SDL really the best choice?
[20:49:11] <Twipply> Can't you use glfw and opengl or so?
[20:49:15] <toxictype> No.
[20:49:20] <Twipply> Guess that's me told
[20:49:48] <toxictype> Sorry but I have no idea what the hack is to activate both renderings
[20:49:50] <R2robot> the thing about SDL is it doesn't really do anything for you.  It abstracts hardware so you can be multiplatform, and it allows you to easily open a GL context and then it just gets out of your way.  THe rest is up to you.
[20:49:58] <mijowh> ^
[20:50:08] <mijowh> use xlib like a real man
[20:50:12] <R2robot> lol
[20:51:00] <toxictype> Better start drawing chunguses.
[20:51:15] <toxictype> I swear my code is not the problem.
[20:51:19] <mijowh> it is.
[20:51:27] <toxictype> Bet you it isn't.
[20:51:29] <R2robot> lol
[20:51:35] <mijowh> then youd have a triangle
[20:51:35] <R2robot> then it's your logic
[20:51:50] <Twipply> This line hurt me to write static_cast<Store<T> &>(*stores_[T::id]);
[20:51:53] <toxictype> I don't have a triangle therefore it's not my code.
[20:52:02] <R2robot> problem solved!
[20:52:03] <R2robot> !next
[20:52:07] <mijowh> that line hurts to read
[20:52:12] <Twipply> You could change the background colour instead of drawing the triangle in red
[20:52:21] <toxictype> I guess. brb
[20:52:43] <R2robot> What a sillyasaurus
[20:53:29] <mijowh> i really dont mean offense, but your code is pretty fugly. its a 2700 line block of spaghetti
[20:53:34] <mijowh> like how can you be sure its not your logic
[20:53:37] <R2robot> dude went to #opengl ...
[20:53:39] <R2robot> 14:50 <toxictype> YO CAN I DRAW 3D OPENGL ON TOP OF SDL?
[20:53:41] <mijowh> do you even know what its doing?
[20:53:50] <LastTalon> Hmm...
[20:53:53] <R2robot>   /headdesk
[20:53:54] <Twipply> He'll get booted out of there pretty quick I think
[20:53:57] <LastTalon> I'm checking out asana.
[20:53:58] <mijowh> yeah
[20:54:04] <LastTalon> Is there a way to get it to... reverse everything?
[20:54:14] <toxictype> I know what it's doing.
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[20:54:37] <mijowh> LastTalon: put a mirror in front of your screen?
[20:54:50] <LastTalon> Yes. The obvious fix.
[20:55:05] <LastTalon> But seriously, everything is organized backward by default.
[20:55:20] <LastTalon> New tasks appear at the top of lists, things move from left to right as you complete them.
[20:55:41] <mijowh> that sounds right to me
[20:56:00] <mijowh> personal preference issue vOv
[20:56:00] <toxictype> glRotatef(r, 0.0f, 1.0f, 0.0f);
[20:56:01] <LastTalon> It should be the opposite. Tasks closer to completion should be closer to the left so they're more readily visible.
[20:56:01] <WarauSalesman> <toxictype> They use hacks.
[20:56:07] <WarauSalesman> <mijowh> use xlib like a real man
[20:56:09] <R2robot> WarauSalesman: lol
[20:56:09] <toxictype> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIUIZkd67hE&feature=youtu.be
[20:56:11] <toxictype> Still fucked.
[20:56:24] <mijowh> lol what WarauSalesman?
[20:56:26] <mijowh> xlib is fun
[20:56:27] <LastTalon> New tasks should come in at the bottom after tasks that have been waiting.
[20:56:34] <mijowh> (its really not)
[20:56:41] <WarauSalesman> mijowh, I know. I coded my die-tk with it
[20:56:48] <R2robot> 13:25 <derhass> toxictype: seriously, I'm not going to answer anything from you anymore. it is impossible anyway
[20:56:48] <WarauSalesman> it works for windows and linux
[20:57:04] <Twipply> That almost looks like someone is rotating around the wrong axis somehow
[20:57:06] <toxictype> To draw 3D on top of SDL?
[20:57:06] <mijowh> yeah my current window system is based on xlib on linux
[20:57:11] <mijowh> and winapi on windows
[20:57:20] <WarauSalesman> it seems we did the same thing
[20:57:34] <WarauSalesman> I use std::function to wrap window message events
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[20:57:58] <WarauSalesman> I think we talked about working with xlib clipboard once here
[20:58:07] <mijowh> that rings a bell
[20:58:21] <mijowh> one of these days i wanna try out wayland
[20:58:23] <WarauSalesman> I was using a different nick. then I showed you my code and you seemed to like it
[20:58:31] <WarauSalesman> those properties are annoying to work with
[20:59:45] <defk0n> Whats a Warau?
[20:59:46] <WarauSalesman> notchris, yeah! to normalize your force vector, just divide it by the delta
[20:59:53] <WarauSalesman> defk0n, it is the best cartoon of the universe
[21:00:02] <WarauSalesman> Warau = Laughing
[21:00:06] <notchris> hmm i think i was
[21:00:32] <toxictype> So basically you can't draw 3D on top of SDL.
[21:00:38] <WarauSalesman> toxictype, yes
[21:00:40] <WarauSalesman> good bye
[21:00:42] <WarauSalesman> sucker
[21:00:46] <notchris> what is a logarithmic-depth-buffer
[21:00:54] <WarauSalesman> notchris, I instead multiply my vectors by a fraction
[21:01:12] <defk0n> i guess its a logarithmic scaled depth buffer
[21:01:14] <R2robot> toxictype: you don't seem to understand what SDL is
[21:01:17] <WarauSalesman> or use two integers, since my delta is in ms
[21:01:22] <WarauSalesman> multiply and divide
[21:01:28] <toxictype> Your conceptions about me are wrong.
[21:01:43] <mijowh> toxic, you CAN USE 3D on sdl
[21:01:47] <R2robot>  /ignore toxictype
[21:01:48] <mijowh> because sdl just gives you the gl context
[21:01:49] <mijowh> https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_GL_CreateContext
[21:01:49] <R2robot> bah
[21:01:53] *** WarauSalesman is now known as die-tk
[21:01:53] <mijowh> USE THE CONTEXT
[21:02:11] <defk0n> ... luke
[21:02:14] * die-tk slaps toxictype
[21:02:15] <mijowh> if you dont understand how, you should go read a book first
[21:02:44] <mijowh> but dont say "x is impossible because I cant do it"
[21:02:55] <toxictype> How am I suppsoed to use the context?
[21:02:59] <mijowh> that just means you dont know how to yet
[21:03:08] <R2robot> do some tutorials, m8
[21:03:11] <toxictype> I can render flat quads with shaders but I can't do depth.
[21:03:14] <mijowh> create the context, load extensions with sdl_GL_GetProcAddress
[21:03:14] <toxictype> I did ALL the tutorials.
[21:03:15] <Twipply> Not gonna lie sometimes I think ECS is just a joke I'm not in on
[21:03:18] <toxictype> I've been on this for 22 hours.
[21:03:22] <mijowh> for each function you need, like glBindBuffer, etc
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[21:03:30] <toxictype> SUPPOSE
[21:03:30] <defk0n> "I did ALL the tutorials."
[21:03:32] <toxictype> IMMEDIATE MODE
[21:03:33] <defk0n> haha
[21:03:36] <toxictype> OKAY
[21:03:39] <R2robot> lol
[21:03:46] <toxictype> IT DONT WORK IN IMMEDIATE MODE HOW IT APPOSTA WORK IN ANY OTHER MODE
[21:04:19] <R2robot> https://discourse.libsdl.org/
[21:04:22] <mijowh> immediate or programmable pipeline is irrelevant, THEY BOTH OPERATE ON THE UNDERLYING GLCONTEXT
[21:04:23] <defk0n> relax, its only opengl
[21:04:39] <mijowh> sdl does not impose any limitations on what you can do with your context
[21:04:45] <mijowh> do 2d, or 3d, it doesnt give a shit
[21:04:54] <R2robot> ^
[21:05:12] <toxictype> Then how come it doesn't work?
[21:05:17] <mijowh> because your code is shit
[21:05:20] <mijowh> frankly
[21:05:21] <toxictype> It's fucking not.
[21:05:22] <R2robot> toxictype: https://discourse.libsdl.org/
[21:05:43] <R2robot> why don't I have to the ability to ban from this channel? lol
[21:05:59] <toxictype> Why don't you know the answer?
[21:06:05] <R2robot> it's enough, son.
[21:06:16] <toxictype> He does not know the way.
[21:06:29] <mijowh> no i dont at all
[21:06:33] <mijowh> too bad my renderer works.
[21:06:43] <toxictype> You can do what I'm trying to do?
[21:06:52] <mijowh> most people here can tbh
[21:06:56] <mijowh> its a triangle
[21:07:07] <toxictype> Then how come no one can figure out what's wrong in 22 hours?
[21:07:23] <mijowh> because you threw out 2700 lines of spaghetti and expected us to debug it for you?
[21:07:30] <mijowh> pay me.
[21:07:31] <toxictype> I told you where it's at.
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[21:07:41] <die-tk> yeah! how did you miss it?
[21:08:04] <die-tk> I can render triangles, toxictype :)
[21:08:10] <die-tk> they rotate nicely
[21:08:14] <toxictype> Can you stop being a troll?
[21:08:15] <die-tk> I don't even need opengl to do it :D
[21:08:19] <toxictype> Ignored.
[21:08:20] <defk0n> opengl bullies!
[21:08:49] <R2robot> Sooo, how 'bout that gamedev
[21:08:57] <defk0n> toxictype: can you paste your code
[21:08:59] <die-tk> noo
[21:09:01] <toxictype> Sure.
[21:09:04] <die-tk> stop engaging this piece of crap
[21:09:05] <toxictype> Give me 5 minutes.
[21:09:12] <R2robot> take your time.
[21:09:17] <R2robot> a week or two
[21:09:36] <defk0n> toxictype is a human in need
[21:09:37] <toxictype> I'm going to post the whole thing you just tell me what you want to look at and I'll tell you where it is.
[21:09:38] <die-tk> seriously, this guy is the worst
[21:09:56] <R2robot> cross channel toxicity even
[21:10:02] <die-tk> he is abusive, needy and a total idiot
[21:10:04] <mijowh> defk0n: people have been trying to help him. he fights back every step of the way
[21:10:16] <R2robot> yeah, so just stop and ignore him already lol
[21:10:17] <defk0n> i like a challange
[21:10:21] <Twipply> Throw it up on github and we can have a family programming session to fix it
[21:10:25] <die-tk> lol
[21:10:30] <mijowh> that actually kinda sounds fun
[21:10:38] <toxictype> https://github.com/voidAsterisk/ShadowOfTheChungus
[21:10:39] <Twipply> Afterwards we can do my ECS
[21:10:40] <toxictype> main is in game.cpp
[21:10:44] <Twipply> omg it's actually on github
[21:10:45] <Twipply> lol'd
[21:10:47] <mijowh> dont push it
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[21:11:19] <Twipply> You wrote a lot of code eh
[21:11:27] <toxictype> It's been a solid month.
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[21:11:42] <R2robot> well there's the problem...
[21:11:44] * die-tk can't stop puking
[21:11:56] <mijowh> wheres the problem?
[21:11:58] <die-tk> THAT is why people hate C++
[21:12:06] <mijowh> hey, i love c++
[21:12:09] <die-tk> me too
[21:12:09] <mijowh> speak for yourself
[21:12:15] <defk0n> how come you have so much code but no renderer
[21:12:17] * die-tk is a C++ zealot
[21:12:31] <toxictype> What like SDL_Renderer?
[21:12:34] <R2robot> it's amazing how you can just spot the problem when you take a step back and calm down. :D
[21:12:48] <die-tk> but there is a lot of wannabe gamedev code in C++ that looks like shit. toxictype's is a clear example of that
[21:13:15] <toxictype> hurg
[21:13:16] <mijowh> i think new devs should totally do it in c++, yes youll produce bad code, but youll learn
[21:13:23] <mijowh> then you can burn it down and build it right
[21:13:25] <die-tk> :)
[21:13:27] <mijowh> with a deeper understanding
[21:13:28] <die-tk> that I agree
[21:13:32] <die-tk> burning down old shit
[21:13:34] <toxictype> That's exactly what I did.
[21:13:36] <Twipply> die-tk I can link you my C++ game engine if you need more examples
[21:13:42] <die-tk> hehehe
[21:13:47] <LastTalon> I'm going to try to do it left to right, but I still feel like that's going to make it really easy to see things that aren't actively being worked on all the time.
[21:13:57] <die-tk> Twipply, please
[21:14:17] <Twipply> n-no I'm ashamed
[21:14:19] <Twipply> the repo is private
[21:14:23] <die-tk> same here
[21:14:28] <mijowh> ive actually been dealing with a rendering issue myself recently
[21:14:34] <mijowh> i think i showed twipply yday
[21:14:44] <mijowh> the zfighting
[21:14:46] <wedr> There's your game renderer code. https://github.com/voidAsterisk/ShadowOfTheChungus/blob/1b4eee00586c157b1c6bacc982705c9dbd5b87c1/game/Chungus.cpp#L13
[21:15:06] <die-tk> my animations jitter sometimes. but I already know how to fix them
[21:15:08] <toxictype> Yeah well besides texture drawing.
[21:15:17] <Twipply> This one random ass is getting more help than I've ever received in my entire life
[21:15:29] <toxictype> I've been pushing for 22 hours.
[21:15:29] <die-tk> not from me anymore
[21:15:38] <toxictype> Also this one time I almost wrote an OS with help from IRC.
[21:15:44] <mijowh> http://i.imgur.com/zognf8v.png you can see the zfighting issue clearly
[21:15:50] <mijowh> i know what the cause it
[21:15:55] <R2robot> it takes at least 37 hours though.  let it cook
[21:15:56] <mijowh> just havent cranked out the fix yet
[21:16:23] <Twipply> 22 hours is meaningless, what you really need to sleep and look at the code again
[21:16:29] <Twipply> you only have a true soul destroying error then
[21:16:37] <Twipply> if you look at the code and don't think wtf were you doing last night
[21:16:39] <Twipply> and then fix it in 30 seconds
[21:16:48] <toxictype> This is not the case.
[21:16:56] <wedr> It's starting to become one
[21:17:05] <toxictype> I've done GL in plain C and got a cool game prototype in 3D.
[21:17:21] <R2robot> haha
[21:17:33] <toxictype> Like I know what I'm doing just that this is not normal.
[21:18:52] <die-tk> lol
[21:18:52] <R2robot> clearly
[21:19:03] <toxictype> So you agree?
[21:19:06] <die-tk> I've done = I've copied from someone
[21:19:11] <mijowh> ^
[21:20:15] <Twipply> I suggest you start fresh using OpenGL 4.5+
[21:20:20] <LastTalon> Are we still on this issue?
[21:20:24] <die-tk> :D
[21:20:29] <toxictype> I'd rather not.
[21:20:31] <LastTalon> I went and picked up my car and figured out how to use asana.
[21:20:33] <toxictype> I'd rather finish a project.
[21:20:42] <mijowh> correction: opengl 3.1+
[21:21:02] <mijowh> the 4.5 features while useful arent needed for the basics
[21:21:04] <Twipply> I want a compute shader to rotate a million triangles all at once
[21:21:07] <LastTalon> I feel like a productive person today.
[21:21:11] <die-tk> Twipply, easy
[21:21:18] <mijowh> like, worry about tesselation after you get your shaders pumping out triangles
[21:21:20] <Twipply> Did I say million? I meant billion
[21:21:25] <die-tk> still easy
[21:21:27] <Twipply> Also we're rotating in 5 dimensions
[21:21:30] <LastTalon> One gillion!
[21:21:41] <die-tk> dunno if VBOs support more than 3D
[21:21:46] <toxictype> I'm just going to draw the fucking chungus in mspaint then fuck Blender.
[21:21:50] <toxictype> bitch lasagna
[21:21:52] <Twipply> Also it's a 7D triangle
[21:21:55] <Twipply> whatever that shape is called
[21:22:12] <die-tk> is it over? finally?
[21:22:18] <LastTalon> A triangle is a 2D shape.
[21:22:20] <mijowh> tetraseptafuckhedron
[21:22:30] <toxictype> ultrahedron
[21:22:35] <Twipply> Also each of the triangles is a fractal
[21:22:46] <toxictype> Sounds like a clusterfuck visually.
[21:22:53] <LastTalon> A triangle is a 2D shape.
[21:22:58] <mijowh> LastTalon: i think he means, the simplest possible shape in 7 dimensions
[21:22:58] <Twipply> Also render it twice so I can use a VR headset on it
[21:23:07] <mijowh> triangle for 2, tetrahedron for 3
[21:23:11] <mijowh> something else for higher
[21:23:15] <LastTalon> I see.
[21:23:26] <Twipply> I was just spewing bullshit really
[21:23:30] <LastTalon> A shape with the smallest number of vertices then?
[21:23:33] <mijowh> yes
[21:23:44] <mijowh> Twipply: that may be true, but its an actual shape :P
[21:23:52] <R2robot> https://www.slant.co/topics/1907/~best-game-engines-for-beginners-and-non-programmers
[21:24:03] <Twipply> "Write your own in C++"
[21:24:18] <die-tk> <--
[21:24:21] <die-tk> that is what I did
[21:24:25] <die-tk> my game loop is sweet
[21:24:42] <Twipply> I started and then couldn't find how I should design the thing
[21:24:43] <wedr> <---   "Write my own OpenGL"    with book to prove it.
[21:24:45] <Twipply> so I temporarily gave up
[21:24:58] <die-tk> Twipply, it is my third interaction :)
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[21:25:03] <die-tk> but I got it right this time (almost)
[21:25:13] <Twipply> This is my first attempt
[21:25:17] <die-tk> and I got used to the idea of "there is always something to fix or to improve"
[21:25:20] <LastTalon> Idk about 7D, but here you go in 4D. :D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-cell
[21:25:23] <mijowh> im on like third or fourth iteration of my engine
[21:25:39] <mijowh> i think the foundation is complete and solid at this point
[21:25:40] <die-tk> for example, I created an animation graph engine. It works fine, but I know it can be improved a lot
[21:25:42] <toxictype> Are you going to sell your engine or make games?
[21:25:44] <mijowh> still fleshing out details
[21:25:48] <mijowh> make games
[21:25:53] <LastTalon> I can't prove it atm, but I'm pretty sure in 7D it would be 8 vertices.
[21:25:54] <wedr> *ahem* licensing details
[21:25:56] <die-tk> animations are really hard
[21:25:59] <toxictype> How come you didn't start by making games.
[21:26:09] <die-tk> they can be done in a lot different ways
[21:26:12] <mijowh> i did, in unity, doing a prototype of my current project
[21:26:16] <wedr> why build games when you don't even have a foundation?
[21:26:18] <Twipply> I'm gonna expose a rendering API call to put broken triangles on the screen in your honour toxictype
[21:26:22] <mijowh> as i learned more about gamdev (unity was my intro)
[21:26:22] <LastTalon> Do I get a cookie?
[21:26:25] <mijowh> i decided to go deeper
[21:26:55] <wedr> toxictype: Alsooooooo,  you forgot to include a library file to your github project.
[21:26:58] <toxictype> Oh cool for me the tutorial said learn programming and that's where I stopped reading.
[21:27:04] <die-tk> I know a little bit about them because my master thesis was about modeling 3D animations via finite automata
[21:27:12] <mijowh> toxictype: thats the most important step
[21:27:13] <wedr> toxictype: You don't even have libfbxsdk-md.lib
[21:27:15] <toxictype> wedr I added the entire thing.
[21:27:19] <wedr> ^
[21:27:22] <mijowh> if you skip that, just turn your computer off and walk away
[21:27:23] <toxictype> I don't need it.
[21:27:30] <wedr> toxictype: other people do
[21:27:33] <wedr> like me.
[21:27:46] <wedr> I'm just cloning your github project.
[21:28:28] <Twipply> If anyone wants to clone and fix my game engine then hit me up pls thx
[21:28:33] <Twipply> In return I can teach you to juggle
[21:28:36] <Twipply> that's about it
[21:28:45] <mijowh> teach me to juggle over irc
[21:28:51] <Twipply> Fix my engine first then
[21:28:57] <die-tk> Twipply, what needs to be fixed?
[21:29:03] <toxictype> I removed the directories entries and pushed.
[21:29:10] <wedr> Can you juggle my 7-years of mortgage payment?
[21:29:15] <Twipply> Well, nothing is actually broken, I just don't know anything about what kinda architecture I should aim for
[21:29:19] <die-tk> lol
[21:29:21] <Twipply> Direction is all I need
[21:29:25] <die-tk> I can take a look at it tomorrow if you want
[21:29:25] <Twipply> best practices, etc
[21:29:27] <toxictype> Make a game.
[21:29:28] <LastTalon> Oh. Here we go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplex
[21:29:33] <toxictype> Better yet
[21:29:35] <toxictype> Finish a game.
[21:29:37] <die-tk> the toxic guy is right
[21:29:38] <Twipply> Aww, that's sweet die-tk, you don't need to put yourself out though
[21:29:43] <Twipply> Unless you wanna
[21:29:54] <die-tk> Twipply, I want to see what is there too. I can benefit from some of your ideas as well
[21:30:00] <die-tk> so it is not exactly a 'free job'
[21:30:03] <wedr> toxictype: If you don't have libfbxsdk-md.lib in your project, no one is going to be able to fix your project's problem.
[21:30:09] <Twipply> There's literally almost nothing
[21:30:10] <die-tk> and I love discussing software architecture. I work with it every day
[21:30:18] <wedr> toxictype: Even if you hosted it on Github, without that library, no one will.
[21:30:18] <mijowh> he is actually. design a game. based on requirements of that game, your ideal engine architecture should become obvious
[21:30:19] * die-tk is also a Design Patterns zealot
[21:30:44] <toxictype> wedr I didn't know it would pop up. How do I remove it?
[21:30:47] <Twipply> I kinda wish I could get a link from github to a private repo
[21:30:50] <Twipply> one that'll let someone see it
[21:30:53] <Twipply> without setting to public
[21:30:57] <wedr> toxictype: Pop what up?
[21:31:01] <mijowh> bitbucket can do that i think
[21:31:04] <toxictype> The missing library.
[21:31:11] <toxictype> I got rid of that days ago.
[21:31:11] <wedr> Twipply: Github private repos are now free
[21:31:12] <wedr> :/
[21:31:12] <mijowh> as in, allowing only certain peoples access
[21:31:19] <toxictype> I removed the include paths from options.
[21:31:24] <wedr> toxictype: I dunno. You did something to your project.
[21:31:29] <Twipply> wedr yeah ikr, I'm using one to hide my abomination of a game engine away
[21:31:34] <wedr> toxictype: Update your github repo, then I'll clone it
[21:31:37] <toxictype> I did.
[21:31:40] <wedr> oh
[21:32:05] <LastTalon> Hmm... Well I think I'm done being productive today. :P
[21:32:11] <mijowh> i havent even started
[21:32:16] <mijowh> im procrastinating again
[21:32:21] <LastTalon> I barely started.
[21:32:33] <LastTalon> But I'm already researching simplices.
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[21:35:51] <wedr> toxictype: Can you also upload to your Github your .VCXPROJ file?
[21:36:05] <Kelzorz> Can I get this chat's opinion on something?  Which is better for 2D side scrollers, Unity or Unreal?
[21:36:07] <wedr> toxictype: If that is missing, your project won't even load up fails
[21:36:16] <toxictype> Okay let me find where it is.
[21:36:22] <mijowh> Kelzorz: not familiar with unreal, but i like unity
[21:36:58] <toxictype> wedr wait how do I add it.
[21:37:03] <wedr> toxictype: :O
[21:37:25] <mijowh> git add ./foo.VCXPROJ
[21:37:30] <mijowh> git commit
[21:37:31] <wedr> toxictype: Well then....    I only have 2 minutes left on the clock, before I leave work so........
[21:37:32] <mijowh> etc
[21:37:54] <toxictype> How is it not there?
[21:38:00] <wedr> I dunno
[21:38:03] <wedr> toxictype: It's your project.
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[21:38:11] <mijowh> is it listed in your .gitignore?
[21:38:41] <toxictype> no
[21:38:56] <mijowh> then idk
[21:39:05] <wedr> we don't know. It's just missing from your repoo
[21:39:08] <LastTalon> Did you git add it?
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[21:39:16] <toxictype> Yeah it said everything up to date.
[21:39:17] <wedr> anyway, I'm leaving work. See you all tomorrow
[21:39:25] <mijowh> o/ wedr
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[21:43:03] <R2robot> https://store.google.com/magazine/stadia
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[21:44:21] <R2robot> not quite sure if I understand what google is doing
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[21:47:55] <mijowh> something about games apparantely
[21:48:12] <R2robot> yeah
[21:48:14] <mijowh> they prob just bought out some other project, seeing if it turns a profit, and itll be dead in six months
[21:48:22] <mijowh> google vOv
[21:48:32] <R2robot> rinse and repeat
[21:49:50] <R2robot> long live google wave!
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[21:56:50] <pulse> google shave
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[22:05:09] <Twipply> mijowh are you totes busy atm?
[22:05:24] <mijowh> not really just chattin
[22:05:36] <Twipply> I have noob ECS questions if you're willing to answer
[22:06:24] <Twipply> So you said you have an std::vector for each component type, right?
[22:06:59] <Twipply> Let's just say we have position and velocity components
[22:07:11] <Twipply> And we have a movement system that wants entities that have both position and velocity
[22:07:16] <mijowh> i do, yes, so as to keep components in contiguous areas of memory according to their type
[22:07:20] <Twipply> so it can do position += velocity * dt
[22:07:22] <Twipply> something like that
[22:07:28] <Twipply> This makes sense so far, right?
[22:07:36] <mijowh> yeah
[22:07:46] <Twipply> So we're in your movement system
[22:07:59] <Twipply> how do you get your position & velocity pairs
[22:08:56] <mijowh> the "velocity" component for me i refer to a  a physics body. in my physics update loop, i iterate over every body, and for each body, i get the entity for it, and then get the transform(position) component of that entity
[22:09:11] <Twipply> Let's just pretend you're using position and velocity components
[22:09:13] <Twipply> distinct ones
[22:09:16] <mijowh> k
[22:09:19] <Twipply> Change it to whatever you like to be happy
[22:09:21] <Twipply> body & render
[22:09:22] <Twipply> maybe
[22:09:32] <mijowh> id iterate over the velocity components, and for each one, id then get the position component
[22:09:55] <Twipply> How do you find the right position component to go with the velocity component?
[22:10:32] <LastTalon> I've also been wondering how you keep it contiguous for fetching memory.
[22:10:50] <mijowh> in mine it is { Entity* e = VelocityComponent.GetEntity();    Position* p = e->GetComponent<Position>() }
[22:11:02] <Twipply> So do each of your components know who owns them?
[22:11:03] <mijowh> sicne there are two distinct components, the contiguous memory advantage is moot
[22:11:06] <mijowh> it will cache miss.
[22:11:06] <Twipply> Entity parent; or so
[22:11:09] <toxictype> I also have an Entity class.
[22:11:14] <toxictype> What's up with that?
[22:11:20] <mijowh> that advantage only occurs when dealing with a single component in a loop
[22:11:30] <LastTalon> mijowh, but that's common, isn't it? You often need multiple component types.
[22:11:54] <mijowh> encapsulate at the right level
[22:12:07] <mijowh> if you need 5 components for one behaviour, consider making a single component to represent it
[22:12:38] <Twipply> So each component knows who it belongs to?
[22:12:48] <Twipply> You just read the value and check it against all the 2nd components
[22:12:55] <Twipply> if you get a matching pair then go from there
[22:13:00] <mijowh> well, the scene knows who owns what entities, the references arent stored in the components themselves
[22:13:26] <mijowh> but yes there is a mapping maintained
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[22:13:42] <LastTalon> But you have situations all the time that may be unavoidable. Like... I might have a renderer and a mesh component. And each time I need to collect my objects I'll need to go through every renderer and check its settings and then the ones with meshes will render those meshes. (Something I've been curious about with ECS)
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[22:14:44] <mijowh> i dont have a mesh component, just a render component. the render component can store an arbitrary block of data, according to the format described by what i call 'materials'
[22:15:10] <mijowh> for the  'mesh' material, the data in rendercomponent stores a id for the mesh to use
[22:15:28] <mijowh> i have different materials, for ex text rendering
[22:15:33] <mijowh> ill paste a snippet hold on
[22:16:02] <LastTalon> Okay. Well I mean that doesn't really get to the issue I was asking about.
[22:16:23] <Twipply> A system working on a single component would be a lot easier
[22:16:47] <Twipply> Feels like it'd be impossible to keep up though
[22:16:48] <mijowh> https://pastebin.com/bSrxhwmA
[22:16:52] <LastTalon> Well obviously, but easier isn't always the right solution.
[22:16:56] <mijowh> see how the rendering process is only a single component
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[22:17:04] <mijowh> i mean, def room for improvement
[22:17:18] <mijowh> also need to figure out storage of that renderdata better
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[22:17:28] <mijowh> it is NOT contiguous, its allocated separately
[22:18:41] <mijowh> i wont feign that my ECS is perfect, its got alot of issues ive yet to really solve performance-wise
[22:18:55] <mijowh> but you can def see the direction ive been going with it
[22:19:19] <Twipply> Getting someone to answer questions is tough enough as it is
[22:19:28] <Twipply> I'll take answers about an imperfect ECS any day
[22:19:31] <Twipply> better than nothing
[22:20:26] <mijowh> you can also see, i dont even do anything at all with the entity the renderer belongs to
[22:20:38] <mijowh> all i do is just process that single component in a loop
[22:21:34] <Twipply> This new ECS does seem a little better than my last one at least
[22:21:35] <mijowh> there is also some back and forth with the hashmaps i store materials and meshes in
[22:21:49] <mijowh> that also breaks contiguous memory, causing cache misses
[22:21:57] <mijowh> not yet solved in a generic way
[22:22:33] <Twipply> In my first version I used this: std::unordered_map<Entity, T> components
[22:22:37] <Twipply> inside the component stores
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[22:22:42] <Twipply> real easy to get an entity's component
[22:22:44] <Twipply> not continuous though
[22:22:59] <mijowh> yeah its why i use vectors for storage
[22:23:04] <mijowh> keeps everything next to each other
[22:23:26] <mijowh> but there is more overhead that comes with that in other ways
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[22:23:39] <mijowh> meh, i dont think there will ever be a "perfect solution" for anything
[22:23:42] <mijowh> its just a bunch of tradeoffs
[22:23:43] <Twipply> I guess I'll just use std::vector<std::pair<Entity, T>> components
[22:23:45] <Twipply> and cry irl
[22:24:57] <mijowh> hmm just had a thought
[22:25:08] <Twipply> Did it hurt?
[22:26:48] <mijowh> if i track the maximum size of a RenderData object (which as said can be defined differently based on material), i could say put an array right in Renderer, with hypothetically 30 bytes, this would keep the memory of RenderData and Renderer in the same block
[22:26:53] <mijowh> instead of using arbPtr
[22:27:04] <mijowh> which is allocated elsewhere
[22:27:06] <mijowh> hm
[22:27:17] <mijowh> thats a bit more overhead in other ways though
[22:27:33] <mijowh> might be a worthwhile tradeoff
[22:28:46] <mijowh> like, if the RenderData of the most complex material needs 30 bytes of space, then i can include those 30 bytes in every Renderer, regardless of material
[22:29:00] <mijowh> and have the memory kept together
[22:29:03] <mijowh> make sense?
[22:29:33] <Twipply> Totes
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[22:29:53] * mijowh adds this to TODO list
[22:30:20] <LastTalon> Just read an article with some interesting insights on the contiguous data problem.
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[22:30:29] <LastTalon> Doesn't really give a satisfactory solution though.
[22:30:51] <mijowh> yeah i dont think there will ever be a satisfactory solution that meets every case
[22:31:02] <LastTalon> Some good takeaways.
[22:31:03] <mijowh> like wiht my renderer, i think i can make it work, for this specific case
[22:31:08] <LastTalon> Strategic interleaving can be useful.
[22:31:25] <mijowh> but point being the underlying scene stores the components in contiguous memory, so the bottleneck is NOT with storage of components
[22:31:30] <mijowh> but rather how components are processed
[22:31:37] <mijowh> which is preferable imo
[22:32:02] <mijowh> got a link LastTalon
[22:32:09] <mijowh> ill give it a read as well
[22:32:10] <LastTalon> http://t-machine.org/index.php/2014/03/08/data-structures-for-entity-systems-contiguous-memory/
[22:33:27] <mijowh> "ES “Systems” should be batch-processing algorithms: you give them an  array/stream of homogeneous data, and they repeat one algorithm on each  row/item. Calling them “Processors” instead of “Systems” reduces  confusion. "
[22:33:29] <mijowh> exactly
[22:33:59] <LastTalon> I always hated the "system"
[22:34:19] <mijowh> meh, i could find and replace for processors, but its whatever :P
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[22:45:36] <mijowh> good article though
[22:45:46] <LastTalon> Yeah. Lots of good insights into the problem.
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[22:46:46] <mijowh> yeah i like how it really focuses on the idea of keeping memory in contiguous chunks
[22:47:00] <mijowh> thats the biggest thing, imo, when developing an ECS
[22:47:00] <LastTalon> Well yeah, that's the whole idea.
[22:47:17] <LastTalon> You want it to be contiguous, but you aren't always working with homogeneous data.
[22:48:03] <LastTalon> And to me it sounds really slow to be working through your contiguous data and every iteration having to grab another piece of memory.
[22:48:09] <mijowh> it should be the whole idea. alot of people design an ECS or something primarily for the 'hype' or the syntax/usage, without considering that the whole point of ECS is efficiency
[22:48:17] <mijowh> "The easiest way to implement selection is to use Maps (aka Associative  Arrays, aka Dictionaries). Each Processor asks for “all Components that  meet [some criteria]”, and you jump around in memory, looking them up  and putting them into a List, which you hand to the Processor."
[22:48:21] <mijowh> alot of people do that ^
[22:48:56] <mijowh> LastTalon: that is really slow, my renderer needs work, ik :P
[22:49:17] <mijowh> but that isnt caused by the underlying ECS storage, but rather my choice there of how im processing that specific component
[22:49:18] <LastTalon> Well there should be a way to solve this with the way components are stored.
[22:49:37] <LastTalon> That's the thing. I'm almost certain there is.
[22:49:40] <LastTalon> I need to think about it more.
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[22:49:58] <mijowh> my ECS keeps components stored in vectors, ALL components have their own vector that contains ALL of their type
[22:50:06] <mijowh> so my renderer inefficiency there is not due to the ECS
[22:50:11] <mijowh> but rather my own usage of my ecs
[22:50:16] <LastTalon> Cuz having the ECS handle that is preferable to having to concoct the perfect component.
[22:50:44] <LastTalon> I'll get back to you.
[22:50:48] <mijowh> lol, k
[22:51:35] <mijowh> im not sure if theres a generic way to do so
[22:51:35] <LastTalon> My current line of thinking here is there's a way to use a relatively small amount of memory to make it so the ECS can be reactive to such a scenario.
[22:52:08] <mijowh> like i discussed above, i think i know the approach to take to make my render loop only operate on a single contiguous block of memory
[22:52:17] <mijowh> but im not sure how to generalize such a solution to the ecs itself
[22:52:28] <mijowh> i think the user just needs to take care in how they use it
[22:53:01] <LastTalon> Sure, but it would be swell if it were easier.
[22:53:06] <mijowh> true that
[22:53:44] <mijowh> another thing, that Twipply brought up, operating on different components (two or three) in same loop
[22:53:44] <LastTalon> Really what I want to do is to have the ECS decide when to cluster data together because its being used together.
[22:54:05] <mijowh> that breaks the advantage of my component storage, since components are only stored with their own type
[22:54:13] <LastTalon> Right, that's what I'm working on.
[22:54:18] <mijowh> every iteration it would have to go back and forth, cache missing
[22:54:20] <mijowh> hm
[22:54:32] <LastTalon> But the ECS should be able to know about this and react to it to be prepared.
[22:54:47] <mijowh> maybe copy the entire set of both components, and interleave into a single vector? then iterate over that vector?
[22:54:47] <LastTalon> Cuz like... your system should be able to tell the ECS, "hey, I need these 3 to do my job"
[22:55:04] <mijowh> that could potentially be a massive copy though :/
[22:55:20] <mijowh> hm thatd be nice lasttalon
[22:55:35] <LastTalon> The article discusses that, but the big problem is you can only do it for one system at a time.
[22:55:54] <LastTalon> (Its also pretty large)
[22:57:31] <mijowh> in my system, if i need both a PhysicsBody and a Transform component every iteration
[22:57:37] <LastTalon> Well naively you could just create a separate array where they're interleaved.
[22:57:49] <mijowh> i suppose i could use inheritance of the Transform
[22:57:52] <LastTalon> But that would double the memory for those components each time.
[22:58:11] <mijowh> like, PhysicsBody : Transform, then just iterate over physics bodies
[22:58:12] <LastTalon> And then you'd have to worry about caching your own memory as well.
[22:58:17] <mijowh> its be contiguous again
[22:58:23] <mijowh> but yeah that introduces other issues :/
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[22:58:56] <toxictype> I drew the chungus in paint.
[22:58:57] <LastTalon> Cuz like if you update it in your "copy" array, it would be fast, but you'd have to know in your standard array that it was changed.
[22:59:00] <toxictype> I hope it's going to be nice.
[22:59:01] <mijowh> is the tradeoff of increased memory usage worth the performance gain of cache locality?
[22:59:12] <toxictype> "chungus" is plural by the way.
[22:59:15] <mijowh> i think that might be a decision that the ECS simply cant make for you
[22:59:20] <mijowh> and should be left to user
[22:59:38] <LastTalon> mijowh, well right, you'd have to instruct the ECS to do this either way.
[23:00:02] <LastTalon> It can't know to give you such an array if you don't ask for it.
[23:01:08] <LastTalon> No, this solution's big problem would be that it would require an update if anything needed fresh values which would mean another slow iteration.
[23:01:39] <LastTalon> (Basically it would trade off memory for doing a slow iteration twice and fast iterations every other time)
[23:02:01] <LastTalon> But assuming you need to refresh frequently it doesn't actually gain any of those fast iterations.
[23:02:23] <mijowh> yeah, the ecs should be capable of that ideally, but only explicitly told to do so by user
[23:02:45] <mijowh> so user still needs to be aware of what theyre doing carefully for best performance, but the ecs could offer assistance
[23:02:49] <LastTalon> But even then, say you have one system that uses X and Y and one system that just uses Y and another that just uses X.
[23:02:58] <mijowh> theres no way to generically make the ecs automagically choose the best option
[23:03:07] <LastTalon> The ones that use just Y and just X would cause it to refresh from your XY array and lose the performance benefit.
[23:03:24] <LastTalon> So even if you instruct it what to do it loses the benefit in this case.
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[23:03:37] <mijowh> ive thought about giving every System class its own copy of the scene it can operate on and make changes to
[23:03:45] <mijowh> which every mainthread frame would sync back to global scene
[23:03:52] <mijowh> was a thought about threading
[23:04:04] <mijowh> cant operate on the same component vector from dif systems at same time
[23:04:49] <mijowh> if its singlethreaded app, i think the issue is moot
[23:04:55] <mijowh> as systems only update serially anyway
[23:05:21] <LastTalon> The merging would lose any performance benefits gained though, wouldn't it?
[23:05:36] <mijowh> possibly, im not sure
[23:05:49] <mijowh> but such a thing is basically necessary i would think if you wanted to multithread
[23:06:18] <LastTalon> You would just have to actually restrict access to a component type among threads.
[23:06:31] <LastTalon> Then there would be no merge necessary.
[23:06:32] <mijowh> hm, a mutex per component type?
[23:06:42] <LastTalon> Basically, yeah.
[23:06:48] <mijowh> interesting solution, that might work too
[23:06:50] <mijowh> i didnt think of that
[23:07:31] <LastTalon> If thread1 has type X then thread2 has to wait for typeX. But that just requires some basic task management.
[23:07:41] <mijowh> yeah, i like that
[23:07:43] <LastTalon> You know, make sure they play nicely.
[23:07:44] <mijowh> think ima steal it
[23:07:49] <LastTalon> K. :P
[23:07:53] <mijowh> better than my copy/merge idea :P
[23:08:40] <LastTalon> Best to order systems in such a way that they won't be hogging types they need to wait on though.
[23:08:42] *** [rg] <[rg]!~ricardo@67-204-254-48.eastlink.ca> has joined #gamedev
[23:08:49] <[rg]> hello
[23:08:51] <mijowh> hello
[23:09:01] <LastTalon> Make them tell you what they intend to use ahead of time. :P
[23:09:09] <LastTalon> [rg], hi
[23:09:25] <[rg]> i;ve decided to give games a go, and im looking for some tetraminos
[23:09:30] <mijowh> yeah i dont currently force that upon systems, but if i did its allow better preparation at startup
[23:09:49] <mijowh> whats a tetramino?
[23:09:52] * LastTalon is realizing he might like rust more
[23:09:53] <[rg]> would i be able to use the ones from wikipedia?
[23:09:54] <LastTalon> >.>
[23:10:01] <[rg]> not sure how to seperate them
[23:11:00] <[rg]> LastTalon: unsafe { barf(); }
[23:11:13] <LastTalon> :P
[23:12:09] <[rg]> how did you guys start?
[23:12:11] <mijowh> what do you mean youre looking for some tetraminos? a google says that theyre prettty much the shapes from tetris. just put some squares together
[23:12:25] <mijowh> i started in unity with c# several years back
[23:12:34] <mijowh> toyed with that for a year or two
[23:12:41] <LastTalon> I've liked games forever. My story is a long and complicated one.
[23:12:42] <mijowh> then picked up c++ and dug down deep
[23:13:00] <[rg]> im having a bit of an easier time doing stuff with dos than using a big engine
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[23:13:11] *** tom_mai78101 is now known as wedr_
[23:13:14] <mijowh> i mean, i guess you could say i originally started when i was like 10, coding a runescape private server in java. im not sure that counts
[23:13:28] <mijowh> but ive always been a lover of video games (although i dont play much anymore)
[23:13:29] <[rg]> i think it counts
[23:13:30] <wedr_> Ahhhh back at home
[23:13:33] <LastTalon> Since a young age I've been interested in games, and since a young age I've been interested in how computers work. Questions like how a computer shows a website, how you put it there, how a program runs, etc.
[23:13:35] <[rg]> i could do that at 10
[23:13:46] <[rg]> s/ccould/could not
[23:14:04] <mijowh> meh it was copypastaing
[23:14:09] <LastTalon> mijowh, I made runescape bots. :D
[23:14:13] <mijowh> i was noobing it up seriously
[23:14:19] <LastTalon> Don't tell them. :x
[23:14:23] <[rg]> lol
[23:14:26] <LastTalon> mijowh, me, too. :P
[23:14:27] <mijowh> although my private server was the first 317 version that had working barrows :P
[23:14:35] <mijowh> that was a point of pride for me
[23:14:39] <defk0n> When i was 10 i was writing asm
[23:14:43] <mijowh> like, the barrows minigame
[23:14:54] <[rg]> i just want to make a tetris game since I cant write any usefull c code
[23:15:05] <mijowh> i still dont know ASM
[23:15:08] <[rg]> moving stuff through freedos and back is annoying
[23:15:15] <[rg]> so Im trying godot
[23:15:21] <defk0n> im joking i dont know any asm
[23:15:27] <LastTalon> I know asm.
[23:15:28] <mijowh> oh
[23:15:29] <LastTalon> It sucks.
[23:15:31] <mijowh> i believed you :P
[23:15:37] <LastTalon> Said everyone ever.
[23:15:41] <LastTalon> Cuz its true.
[23:15:46] <[rg]> i want to learn asm better
[23:15:55] <[rg]> so I can read code output :)
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[23:16:05] <[rg]> s/code/compiler
[23:16:10] <LastTalon> I can read code output.
[23:16:11] <defk0n> the only reason to learn asm is to write a aimbot or something
[23:16:14] <LastTalon> Understanding it take time...
[23:16:23] <mijowh> there are other reasons
[23:16:30] <mijowh> like if you like electronics especially
[23:16:38] <mijowh> and tinker with making
[23:16:43] <defk0n> true if you are doing embedded systems
[23:16:59] <[rg]> cc -S ...
[23:17:11] <mijowh> i use arm cortex processors, so when i toy with that stuff i can write in C
[23:17:20] <[rg]> electronics use verilog
[23:17:22] <mijowh> but im aware of several platforms you gotta ASM it up
[23:17:27] <mijowh> and those scare me
[23:17:29] <mijowh> lol
[23:17:35] <[rg]> mijowh: what are those
[23:17:59] <mijowh> cortex? its a series of processor IC's using the arm architecture
[23:18:03] <defk0n> Forth is a good programming language for embedded stuff
[23:18:03] <mijowh> theyre really cheap
[23:18:04] <[rg]> got a micro bit and was dissapointed it was c++ bindings again
[23:18:11] <mijowh> and several of them can even be breadboarded
[23:18:17] <mijowh> like the lpc1114fn
[23:18:23] <defk0n> when c is to high level, you can use Forth
[23:18:30] <[rg]> LOL
[23:18:48] <defk0n> c is pretty high level
[23:18:48] <[rg]> forth makes my brain hurt
[23:18:49] <wedr_> Fun gamedev fact: Kurtjmac just celebrated his 8-years anniversary of Far Lands or Bust.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RXQIRbG_ng
[23:18:51] <LastTalon> Go Forth and C
[23:18:56] <mijowh> hah
[23:18:58] <LastTalon> I did a word play. :D
[23:19:05] * mijowh applauds
[23:19:54] <LastTalon> wedr, I don't understand.
[23:20:19] <[rg]> ok, whats a simple way to make some blocks that look decent
[23:20:40] <LastTalon> [rg], as in art assets?
[23:20:44] <[rg]> yeah
[23:20:47] <defk0n> minecraft is pretty dope, you think anyone can make a minecraft clone
[23:20:47] <toxictype> https://snag.gy/DR1TbG.jpg
[23:20:50] <toxictype> guys guys
[23:20:52] <toxictype> check this out
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[23:21:00] <mijowh> defk0n: yeah there are plenty of MC clones
[23:21:01] <toxictype> I made the thing I wanted except in MSPaint.
[23:21:01] <LastTalon> I recommend some vector art program.
[23:21:05] <mijowh> look at MineTest
[23:21:22] <LastTalon> mijowh, is it even proper to call it a minecraft clone?
[23:21:29] <mijowh> idk
[23:21:37] <LastTalon> I mean minecraft is not original.
[23:21:41] <LastTalon> Lol
[23:21:44] <defk0n> the only thing with voxels is animation
[23:21:51] <defk0n> cant animate a voxel
[23:21:52] <mijowh> mc was inspired by DF iirc
[23:21:53] <toxictype> I've talked to the guy who made the game that Notch ripped of.
[23:22:02] <LastTalon> mijowh, in part, yeah.
[23:22:04] <mijowh> but mc was pretty unique unto itself
[23:22:06] <toxictype> He wrote it in C#.
[23:22:06] <mijowh> afaik
[23:22:12] <LastTalon> mijowh, nah.
[23:22:24] <[rg]> i think going with java was a good call
[23:22:24] <mijowh> then idk vOv
[23:22:29] <LastTalon> Voxel sandbox games have been around. Just never anywhere close to as popular.
[23:22:34] <LastTalon> Lol
[23:22:34] <mijowh> going with java is never a good call
[23:22:51] <LastTalon> Java's fine, but not for games probably.
[23:22:54] <[rg]> i now java gets hate but other than trolls why
[23:22:59] <[rg]> s/now/know
[23:23:11] <defk0n> is minecraft still written in Java? ithought it was rewritten in c++
[23:23:24] <defk0n> you have minecraft on xbox
[23:23:25] <defk0n> also
[23:23:40] <[rg]> id imagine they kept java
[23:23:43] <Twipply> Minecraft was a ripoff of another game
[23:23:47] <Twipply> I think it was set on the moon
[23:23:48] <[rg]> moving code around would be pretty easy
[23:23:49] <Twipply> not too sure though
[23:24:32] <toxictype> Is Unity math or is that just C++?
[23:24:41] <[rg]> after learning fp last year I undertand now java streams have nothing to do with io lol
[23:24:49] <Twipply> A quick google gives this quote from a video Notch made: In the video description, Notch wrote: “This is a very early test of an Infiniminer clone I’m working on.”
[23:24:52] <LastTalon> http://www.zachtronics.com/infiniminer/
[23:25:02] <toxictype> Oh boy.
[23:25:05] <toxictype> I even played it.
[23:25:09] <toxictype> And looked at the source.
[23:25:11] <wedr_> <LastTalon> wedr, I don't understand.   <---   Kurtjmac is the Guinness World Record holder in the game, Minecraft, for holding the record to travel the longest distance with recorded video timestamp nonstop in a video game.
[23:25:20] <[rg]> rip
[23:25:27] <LastTalon> wedr_, I see.
[23:25:29] <mijowh> wow, what a claim to fame
[23:25:41] <wedr_> LastTalon: And it's 8 years anniversary for him last week
[23:26:16] <LastTalon> Interestingly I had considered making mods for minecraft for both DF and dungeon keeper.
[23:26:29] <LastTalon> I decided against it because minecraft is not a good platform for mods imo.
[23:26:41] <mijowh> minecraft and DF are both large sources of the inspiration for my project
[23:26:45] <wedr_> Ohhh poor baby you...
[23:26:49] <wedr_> LastTalon: You missed out
[23:26:56] <LastTalon> wedr_, on?
[23:26:58] <wedr_> LastTalon: We now have Pokemon in Minecraft
[23:27:03] <LastTalon> I mean I could always go do it.
[23:27:10] <wedr_> yes
[23:27:12] <LastTalon> Its not like there's a barrier stopping me.
[23:27:16] <wedr_> true
[23:27:20] <wedr_> but you missed out on being famous
[23:27:23] <[rg]> pokemon ?
[23:27:33] <wedr_> There were several modders who eventually joined Microsoft.
[23:27:33] <[rg]> mod I guess
[23:27:34] <mijowh> who wants to be famous anyway
[23:27:38] <LastTalon> There are just some distinct drawbacks to the way mods work in minecraft.
[23:27:42] <mijowh> now, rich is a good motivator
[23:27:45] <mijowh> but fame? ew
[23:27:48] <LastTalon> At least to mods that attempt large-ish overhauls.
[23:27:59] <wedr_> mijowh: Joining the Microsoft is always famous
[23:28:12] <wedr_> mijowh: As you get the Xbox Live achievement of "Employee"
[23:28:16] <mijowh> lmao
[23:28:16] <[rg]> mijowh: remeber me when you are rich
[23:28:37] <[rg]> oh really, thats funny
[23:29:34] <mijowh> id like to be rich someday, but i dont see that happening
[23:31:23] <wedr_> mijowh: Be "creatively rich"
[23:31:44] <wedr_> mijowh: Like dumping ice onto your head and get 60K videos + ad monetizations on YouTube and Twitch.tv.
[23:31:57] <wedr_> views*
[23:32:07] <[rg]> i thought twitch was dumb when it came out
[23:32:14] <toxictype> Does anyone else want to go to a programmer art exhibition?
[23:32:15] <wedr_> [rg]: Do you regret it?
[23:32:24] <[rg]> one of my friends became famous off it, so theres that
[23:32:42] <[rg]> wedr_: regret what?
[23:32:52] <wedr_> [rg]: Not being famous like your friend?
[23:32:59] <mijowh> toxictype: programmer art exhibition? thats an interesting idea
[23:33:08] <mijowh> my programmer art is wonderful. cubes and spheres all day
[23:33:10] <toxictype> I know right? I googled it there's no such thing.
[23:33:14] <[rg]> if I had to do that every day, no
[23:33:32] <[rg]> only streamer i like is trumpsc
[23:33:42] <[rg]> i watch some chess streams sometimes too
[23:33:42] <LastTalon> I've been considering getting back into streaming on twitch.
[23:33:46] <mijowh> there are several twitch streams i enjoy
[23:33:46] <LastTalon> It was a hoot.
[23:34:35] <Twipply> I did programmer art once
[23:34:36] <Twipply> https://i.imgur.com/SeoyECv.png
[23:34:39] <Twipply> There ya go mijowh
[23:34:53] <mijowh> lol
[23:35:03] <Twipply> Wow kitty https://i.imgur.com/KWnueIV.png
[23:35:27] <Twipply> WOW KITTY https://i.imgur.com/gywoE0E.png
[23:35:35] <mijowh> in prototype my player character was represented by a vertical 1.6meter cylinder, with another cylinder sticks out a few inches for the nose (so i could see what way i was facing)
[23:35:39] <mijowh> and that was the player.
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[23:36:10] <mijowh> programmer art
[23:36:24] <toxictype> The word "player" looks like a keyword to me now.
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[23:48:05] <mijowh> i have to do a presentation in class on thursday. bah
[23:48:07] <mijowh> sucks
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[23:57:31] <wedr_> OH GOD PLEASE NO SCOTT GOD NO.....    I hate Microsoft Visual Studio community's feature suggestion priorization!  They always prioritize "reliability" and "functionality" over "UI features"
[23:57:43] <wedr_> FUCKING GOD UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
[23:58:29] <wedr_> The entire VS users begging the VS team needs to stop asking to "fix bugs", "fix crashes", and just get "UI features" in first.
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   March 19, 2019  
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