March 17, 2019 
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March 17, 2019 [00:01:23] <mijowh> o/[00:01:54] <TimothyMcHugh> I am currently preparing the Sonniss GameAudioGDC bundle. (It's 25GB this year). Can anyone throw a seedbox in my direction? Or help torrent the files for the next couple of days?[00:07:30] *** thomas_25 <thomas_25!~thomas_25@unaffiliated/thomas-25/x-0068438> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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D:[16:27:54] <brainzap> psssh[16:28:08] <brainzap> people are working, soon monday[16:30:12] *** aeth <aeth!~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[16:31:04] <o][o> I was fapping[16:31:07] <o][o> thanks for interrupting[16:31:29] *** aeth <aeth!~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn> has joined #gamedev[16:31:33] <LastTalon> o][o, you must be good at multitasking.[16:32:11] <LastTalon> Sounded like you were arguing that someone should use c++ :P[16:32:17] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has quit IRC (Quit: jprajzne)[16:32:48] <brainzap> he is making a game with game maker 2 but does not want to admit it[16:32:50] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has joined #gamedev[16:33:20] * LastTalon shrugs[16:33:35] <LastTalon> I don't much care what you use to make a game.[16:33:57] <LastTalon> Some people seem very concerned about certain frameworks and engines.[16:34:24] <LastTalon> The only thing I care about is that people understand the tools they're using.[16:35:19] <brainzap> haha good joke[16:35:39] <brainzap> I use some kind of stone with electricity inside[16:35:54] <LastTalon> I believe the joke you're looking for is "tricked a rock into thinking"[16:36:48] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[16:37:18] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has joined #gamedev[16:37:37] *** mr_lou <mr_lou!~misthalos@077213097222.dynamic.telenor.dk> has joined #gamedev[16:39:30] <pulse> i care what you use to make a game[16:39:39] <pulse> it should be in C, and run on MS-DOS[16:39:42] <brainzap> my fingers[16:40:16] <LastTalon> Ew[16:47:13] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has quit IRC (Quit: jprajzne)[16:47:35] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has joined #gamedev[16:48:51] <R2robot> C is the only option, tbh[16:49:29] <R2robot> C + raylib if you need some help :)[16:51:35] <LastTalon> I made a mistake. D:[16:51:48] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[16:51:49] <R2robot> (._.)[16:52:12] <LastTalon> I tried to help someone with their code. D:<[16:52:13] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has joined #gamedev[16:52:21] <LastTalon> I remember why I had stopped doing that.[16:52:33] <R2robot> you dumb dumb[16:53:08] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@46.182.195.178.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch> has quit IRC (Quit: My tummy says it's time to sleep Mr. Bubbles.)[16:55:26] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@46.182.195.178.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch> has joined #gamedev[17:03:46] <LastTalon> Yes, me dumb dumb...[17:04:18] <LastTalon> I still get shocked at how many people in programming have such a limited skillset that they can't apply their knowledge to something even slightly different.[17:04:47] * LastTalon grumbles[17:04:53] <R2robot> heh, it's like that coin test during interview[17:04:57] <R2robot> interviews*[17:05:12] <LastTalon> Coin test?[17:05:38] <R2robot> yeah, I don't remember what it's called, but you give the person a challenge with some coins and a set of rules...[17:05:49] <R2robot> some (most?) won't get it[17:06:06] <LastTalon> If I wanted to be mean in interviews I would just give people slightly difficult math problems.[17:06:09] <LastTalon> Like the locker problem.[17:06:24] <R2robot> but that's not the point. You then give them the solution if they don't get it and then you modify the challenge.. they should be able to apply what they learned from the first challenge to solve the 2nd.[17:06:47] <R2robot> if they don't get it, then oof.. they dumb[17:07:41] <LastTalon> If you have a row of 100 lockers and you go through and you either open it if its closed or close it if its opened and they all start closed, you go through the first time and you do this for every locker, you do it again with every other locker, then every third, at the end how many lockers are open and how many are closed?[17:08:08] <R2robot> DONT MAKE ME THINK![17:08:11] <LastTalon> Yay, for slightly tricky math problems![17:08:58] <LastTalon> I get what you mean, but its not exactly analogous.[17:09:09] <LastTalon> I'm talking about when someone has detailed knowledge of a domain.[17:09:14] <LastTalon> Understands it well.[17:09:35] <LastTalon> Then you give them a similar domain and suddenly they're completely lost and assume that all rules apply from their original domain.[17:09:49] <LastTalon> And so when something is different they get completely lost.[17:10:30] <LastTalon> Like this situation, where someone clearly understands javascript and they're trying to figure out something in ruby.[17:11:10] <LastTalon> And something as simple as the structure of a function's parameter list being different is incomprehensible.[17:12:09] <LastTalon> They kept just copying what they had in javascript's parameter list and putting it in ruby and saying "but this works in javascript".[17:12:19] <R2robot> lol[17:12:36] <LastTalon> And when I told them, "but this isn't javscript" they concluded "then its impossible in ruby"[17:13:01] <R2robot> that is not a programmer... that is a copy/paster[17:13:04] <R2robot> lol[17:13:38] <R2robot> where did this even happen?[17:13:42] <LastTalon> As much as I'd love to be complicit in the no true scotsman, there are a large number of programmers like this.[17:13:58] <LastTalon> R2robot, in ##programming[17:14:27] <R2robot> i mean, every one copy/pastes at some point.. but that doesn't make them a copy/paster like that guy.. 'cus wow. lol[17:14:36] <LastTalon> Typically its the people who are very proud of the fact that they can say they know both javascript AND ruby or something of that nature.[17:14:43] <pulse> ##programming .. a magical place where ops are gods and making fun of linux security will get you banned[17:14:45] <pulse> fuck em[17:15:00] <R2robot> oh, i'm in ##programming, but I just ignore it 99% of the time. lol[17:15:04] <LastTalon> Like... I never understood bragging about knowing a few languages.[17:15:11] <LastTalon> Come back and brag when you know like 30.[17:15:30] <pulse> bragging about programming is a sure way to let me know you're a newbie :P[17:15:38] <R2robot> ^[17:15:48] <LastTalon> Not that he did it, mind you.[17:16:04] <LastTalon> I'm just saying the people who have this sort of very specific domain knowledge are the same kind of people.[17:16:18] <R2robot> I usually say "i've done stuff in <language>", or "I tinker with <language>". rarely do I ever say that I know a language. :D[17:16:28] <LastTalon> Yeah.[17:16:35] <LastTalon> Every time the question is asked of me I flip the answer.[17:16:52] <LastTalon> "What languages do you know?" "I use X, Y, and Z..."[17:17:34] <LastTalon> I know lots of languages, it doesn't mean I'd claim to use them proficiently.[17:17:41] <LastTalon> I know haskell...[17:17:43] <R2robot> Like.. I like C.. i've done stuff in C.. I think I still have some C code running in a production environment somewhere... but... I suck at C. :D[17:17:48] <LastTalon> I've never written an actual project in haskell[17:18:27] <brainzap> nobody has written a thing in haskell, a useable thing[17:18:33] <R2robot> lol[17:18:46] <o][o> ##programming has 90% of non coders there[17:18:58] <LastTalon> The question recently has become hard to answer.[17:19:04] <LastTalon> To the point that I often answer with a question.[17:19:11] <mupf> Haskell. I want to learn Haskell.[17:19:15] <R2robot> I glance at the haskell home page once every 6 months or so, then nope my way back out of it.[17:19:17] <o][o> the most active op there barely knows visual basic, but his delusions are similar to LunarJetman's[17:19:18] <LastTalon> If someone asks me what languages I know, my response is usually to ask what I need to make.[17:19:38] <o][o> LastTalon: lol, you're avoiding the question[17:19:42] <o][o> either you know a language or not[17:19:57] <LastTalon> o][o, I know too many to list reasonably for the thing they want to know.[17:19:58] <R2robot> Mr Black and White[17:20:13] <LastTalon> I'm not avoiding the question, I'm discovering their real question.[17:20:13] <o][o> you can be less or more experienced in some languages[17:20:25] <R2robot> as usual, the actual point of this convo FWOOSHED right over o][o's head. :P[17:20:31] <LastTalon> ^[17:20:34] <o][o> R2robot: I interview candidates[17:20:47] <R2robot> same[17:20:53] <o][o> I encounter lots of pretenders who claim to always know the "right languages for the right job"[17:21:03] <LastTalon> o][o, do you ever follow up?[17:21:04] <o][o> and they fail the most basic tests[17:21:04] <R2robot> FWOOSH[17:21:11] <brainzap> ITS MY LIIIFE, now or neeever[17:21:15] <LastTalon> That would be my response. Lol[17:21:18] <mupf> What are the most basic tests?[17:21:51] <LastTalon> Cuz I could just print little business cards that list a bunch of languages...[17:21:57] <LastTalon> It would save everyone time.[17:22:41] <LastTalon> Channel necro successful![17:22:49] <mupf> You could print yourself a business card written in a language[17:22:53] <mupf> https://gist.github.com/munificent/b1bcd969063da3e6c298be070a22b604[17:23:05] <o][o> mupf: when I basically ask them to code a short solution in the language they realized that would be ideal for the problem, they just come up with pseudo code[17:23:47] <o][o> sometimes these twats go ok on design and basic algorithms, but fail the coding part[17:24:24] <LastTalon> I'm not sure that tells a whole lot about whether they know the specific language.[17:24:34] <R2robot> i can only imagine the number of qualified candidates you've weeded out with your nonsense. lol[17:24:45] <LastTalon> Its very easy to generate pseudocode when doing whiteboard programming.[17:25:13] <o][o> R2robot: you are just biased[17:25:23] <R2robot> #random[17:25:34] <LastTalon> o][o, you don't think you've rejected people who would be qualified?[17:25:47] <o][o> LastTalon: I gather all the data points[17:25:54] <LastTalon> You're avoiding the question. ;P[17:25:55] <o][o> I don't approve or reject[17:26:15] <o][o> summary guy 1: design ok, algorithms average, coding bad[17:26:25] <LastTalon> What does "coding bad" mean?[17:26:25] <R2robot> I can imagine your data points being skewed to the point of irrelevance[17:26:36] <o][o> R2robot: ofc you can :)[17:26:43] <R2robot> you fail ever single IRC interview lol[17:26:46] <R2robot> every*[17:27:54] <o][o> LastTalon: one silly example: guy claimed to have 3+ years of java experience and he did not know how to use an ArrayList[17:28:08] <o][o> it gets worse[17:28:10] <LastTalon> Wouldn't that be an issue with data structures?[17:28:13] <o][o> no[17:28:17] <o][o> not at all[17:28:19] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@46.182.195.178.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch> has quit IRC (Quit: My tummy says it's time to sleep Mr. Bubbles.)[17:28:28] <LastTalon> Why?[17:28:38] <o][o> you can't claim experience on a language if you don't know the basic standard library[17:28:58] <LastTalon> But it doesn't have to do with actually generating code.[17:29:02] <o][o> wut[17:29:12] <LastTalon> It has to do with knowledge of the data structures available to you.[17:29:21] <o][o> wtf is this kind of argument?[17:29:38] <LastTalon> Which is obviously lacking, but the idea that that means he can't write java code doesn't really follow.[17:29:43] <o][o> he can't[17:29:45] <R2robot> #CURVEBALLLL[17:29:55] <o][o> we don't want to teach new employees to code[17:30:02] <LastTalon> Maybe he can, maybe he can't, but you can't tell based on what you've told me.[17:30:10] <o][o> no. because this is an IRC channel[17:30:24] <o][o> and I won't go through every details and reasonings to convince you[17:30:33] <LastTalon> Then what was the point of saying it? ._.[17:30:43] <R2robot> he just likes to argue[17:30:44] <o][o> IDK. perhaps you would be satisfied with the headline[17:30:45] *** LunarJetman <LunarJetman!LunarJetma@5ec16e1a.skybroadband.com> has joined #gamedev[17:30:51] <R2robot> he's one of the Toxic Trio(tm)[17:30:52] <o][o> R2robot: it takes one to know one[17:30:52] <R2robot> of this channel[17:30:59] <o][o> fantastic four[17:31:08] <R2robot> t-tt-t-toxic trio![17:31:16] <o][o> f-f-f-antastic four![17:31:32] <R2robot> nice try. :)[17:31:33] <LastTalon> Too high, can't come down[17:31:40] <LastTalon> Losing my head, spinning round and round[17:31:40] <o][o> you dragged yourself into it[17:31:52] <LastTalon> Do you feel me now?[17:32:10] <R2robot> I'm feeling myself[17:32:20] <R2robot> wait[17:32:28] <o][o> LastTalon: you seem like a nice guy and I don't mind having opposing point of views with you[17:32:40] <o][o> here is the TL,DR, which can vary from place to place[17:32:48] <o][o> we interview people who we want to work with[17:32:56] <R2robot> #CantLetGo[17:32:58] <R2robot> lol[17:33:05] <o][o> if you don't mind teaching the basic stdlib to a new hire, it is fine[17:33:13] <o][o> we can't afford that time[17:33:23] <o][o> it is just a company tenet[17:33:39] <o][o> spend more time interviewing to save employee time of training :)[17:33:39] <LastTalon> I don't mind opposing views either. And like I said, I can't really form an opinion based on what you've said, not knowing the basic data structures available in a language is a red flag, but I also know its super easy to raise false negatives/positives in interviews, especially re: programming interviews.[17:33:52] <o][o> yeah! but bear with me now[17:33:56] <o][o> it is a matter of investment[17:34:01] <R2robot> I can imagine that being one of the most toxic places to work[17:34:07] <R2robot> #ShitRollsDownhill[17:34:16] <o][o> R2robot: super toxic and the pay is terrible, but I like pain[17:34:26] <R2robot> #nailedIt[17:34:44] <o][o> some chairs in my workplace have dildos attached on them[17:35:05] <o][o> if you fail to get promoted, they put spikes on the dildos[17:35:26] <LastTalon> Like forgive my bluntness, but I could see myself making such a mistake given the right circumstances.[17:35:36] <o][o> LastTalon: yeah! it requires some intuition too[17:35:44] <o][o> that is why I gather all the possible data points[17:35:47] <LastTalon> I know java pretty well and I could see myself forgetting a particular data structure given the right pressures and constraints.[17:36:02] <o][o> LastTalon: yup! forgetting how to use LinkedHashSet is fine[17:36:24] <LastTalon> Or forgetting something trivial like... how you can't instantiate a List, it needs to be some subtype..[17:36:40] <o][o> the trivial part is where we seem to disagree[17:37:01] <LastTalon> Which I can clearly pontificate on in the lax conditions here, but in the stress of an interview could be easy to screw up.[17:37:05] <o][o> experienced coders will know all the trivial things[17:37:12] <o][o> oh! the stress is accounted for[17:37:18] <o][o> because we are allowed to give hints[17:37:36] <o][o> we never want to leave the candidate stuck[17:37:40] <o][o> because we need to read them[17:38:38] <LastTalon> I say trivial because it would be very hard to miss when actually writing code for me, but on a whiteboard I could easily miss it.[17:39:35] <o][o> syntax errors are fine[17:42:59] <LastTalon> Whiteboards aren't exactly the zone you're expecting when you write code for most people. Part of writing code that makes any kind of sense can depend a lot on being used to that environment. Even switching languages or contexts can sometimes throw me off temporarily.[17:43:17] <LastTalon> And that's me using all the tools and the editors I'm used to.[17:44:43] <LunarJetman> if you are referring to me with your "toxic trio" remark then you can fuck off as can the horse you rode in on.[17:45:13] <R2robot> LOOOOL[17:45:15] <LastTalon> Suddenly being in an odd situation can cause people to do unusual things or revert to very basic principles they know they can't get wrong, like using a data structure that isn't the correct because its more basic than the one that would be correct.[17:45:31] <R2robot> they know who they are. :D[17:46:04] <o][o> LunarJetman: nope! you are part of the fantastic four now[17:46:43] * o][o call aeth by name, just to please R2robot more[17:46:47] <R2robot> yeah, i'm toxic now for trying to have the toxic trio(tm) have more civil conversations. :D[17:46:57] <LastTalon> Its the old adage that its better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.[17:47:03] <o][o> your civilness is impressive, R2robot[17:47:16] <R2robot> it's amazing, tbh[17:47:32] *** Kelzorz <Kelzorz!~Kelzorz@162.104.220.155> has joined #gamedev[17:47:38] <LunarJetman> my universal compiler will be amazing tbh[17:47:52] <o][o> ZogaVM[17:48:25] <LastTalon> Anyone know the answer to the locker problem?[17:48:48] <R2robot> The answer is not to play[17:48:56] <R2robot> nice try, WOPPER[17:49:47] <R2robot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo[17:55:50] <toxictype> play my game https://psychictype.itch.io/sasha[17:58:23] *** sid-maddy <sid-maddy!~sid-maddy@103.76.57.41> has joined #gamedev[17:58:42] <o][o> we need a fifth member to call captain toxic planet[17:58:47] <o][o> what about you, toxictype?[17:58:51] <o][o> you seem a good fit :)[17:59:05] <toxictype> Sounds good to me.[17:59:15] <o][o> then it is settled[17:59:17] <LastTalon> I don't think that's how captain planet worked.[17:59:21] <o][o> it is all your fault, R2robot[17:59:52] <o][o> LastTalon: it is backwards[18:00:13] <LastTalon> But captain planet had different elements...[18:00:17] <o][o> yeah![18:00:19] <o][o> we have a robot[18:00:23] <o][o> we have a dreamer[18:00:36] <o][o> we have an archetype[18:00:49] <o][o> we have a mastermind (me)[18:00:56] <o][o> and we have a lackey (aeth)[18:01:41] <LastTalon> That's a load of frittata.[18:02:35] <o][o> with our powers combined...[18:03:39] <o][o> http://www.superamiches.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Captao.jpg[18:04:15] <LastTalon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcW7ttZfZ8c[18:04:40] <o][o> <3[18:07:36] <o][o> terrible, but I like it[18:07:56] <LastTalon> Also, there was a captain pollution and the rings of destruction.[18:08:03] <o][o> oohh[18:08:25] <o][o> so we can call captail pollution[18:08:36] <o][o> see what you've done, R2robot[18:08:52] <LastTalon> But they weren't nearly as catchy as the planeteer rings...[18:09:24] <LastTalon> Super Radiation, Deforestation, Smog, Toxics, and Hate[18:09:33] <LastTalon> Doesn't really roll off the tongue as well.[18:12:57] <LastTalon> On the bright side you get duke nukem.[18:13:22] <LastTalon> Man, I haven't seen this show in forever.[18:13:44] <LunarJetman> I am not toxic, I am just a god.[18:14:15] <LunarJetman> fear me; fear the singularity.[18:14:57] <LunarJetman> ooh I got 3 free games with my new nVIDIA card.[18:17:13] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has quit IRC (Quit: jprajzne)[18:17:16] <LastTalon> Like kanye?[18:17:33] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has joined #gamedev[18:24:02] *** rtypo <rtypo!~alex@unaffiliated/rtypo> has joined #gamedev[18:26:00] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidpizz@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has joined #gamedev[18:26:48] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has quit IRC (Quit: jprajzne)[18:27:13] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has joined #gamedev[18:27:52] *** Groogy <Groogy!~Groogy@90-227-38-205-no61.tbcn.telia.com> has joined #gamedev[18:28:30] <pulse> i like tomatoes[18:35:04] *** soman <soman!~soman@188.235.36.2> has joined #gamedev[18:35:32] <LunarJetman> tomatoes are a fruit.[18:37:16] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has quit IRC (Quit: jprajzne)[18:37:49] <LastTalon> Tomatoes are indigenous to south america.[18:38:31] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[18:40:24] <pulse> class Tomato : public Fruit[18:40:43] <solidfox> I like spaghet[18:40:45] <LastTalon> What properties do fruits have?[18:40:52] <pulse> seeds on the inside[18:41:15] <LastTalon> Strawberries have seeds on the outside.[18:41:16] <pulse> True fruits are developed from the ovary in the base of the flower, and contain the seeds of the plant (though cultivated forms may be seedless). Blueberries, raspberries, and oranges are true fruits, and so are many kinds of nut. Some plants have a soft part which supports the seeds and is also called a 'fruit', though it is not developed from the ovary: the strawberry is an example[18:41:23] <solidfox> class Spaghet(tomato _tomate, ...) : tomate(_tomate) ... {};[18:42:08] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has joined #gamedev[18:42:42] <LastTalon> Is corn a fruit?[18:42:57] <solidfox> corn is from grass. thats all i know[18:44:00] <LastTalon> What about peas?[18:45:04] <solidfox> peas are vegetable for sure[18:45:32] <pulse> i think it boils down to taxonomy[18:45:52] <LastTalon> Ye[18:45:55] <solidfox> idk[18:47:17] <solidfox> i wish i could cook :P lately i just make brocoli for dinner alone. or eat a simple sandwich[18:47:17] <LastTalon> I object to your tomato.[18:47:20] <LastTalon> Tomatoes are berries.[18:48:27] <solidfox> its easy tho[18:52:17] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has quit IRC (Quit: jprajzne)[18:52:44] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@84.42.226.12> has joined #gamedev[18:55:43] <Donitzo> urgh[18:55:48] <Donitzo> 1 kb is less than it looks[18:56:05] <Donitzo> 2.4 kb and it seems pretty hopeless[18:56:21] <LastTalon> What?[18:58:09] <o][o> lol[19:00:51] *** sid-maddy <sid-maddy!~sid-maddy@103.76.57.41> has quit IRC (Quit: sid-maddy)[19:01:48] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@84.42.226.12> has quit IRC (Quit: jprajzne)[19:02:14] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has joined #gamedev[19:28:32] *** moongazer <moongazer!~moongazer@unaffiliated/moongazer> has joined #gamedev[19:36:50] *** notchris <notchris!~notchris@c-73-16-120-84.hsd1.ct.comcast.net> has joined #gamedev[19:42:38] <notchris> o/[19:52:58] <brainzap> oh chris you are late[19:54:49] <notchris> sorry[19:54:52] <notchris> i got high[19:55:37] <LastTalon> That's okay.[19:55:40] <LastTalon> We need more necromancers![19:56:02] * LastTalon continues dancing around to electroswing[19:56:17] <brainzap> moving around is good[19:56:38] <brainzap> today I met my sister after having a new eat and sleep schedule. And she is like WTF are you sick you are so thin[19:57:11] <brainzap> gn8[19:57:13] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Quit: My tummy says it's time to sleep Mr. Bubbles.)[19:58:14] <LastTalon> Come on, Mr. B, time to find some angels.[20:05:28] *** thomas_25 <thomas_25!~thomas_25@unaffiliated/thomas-25/x-0068438> has joined #gamedev[20:21:03] *** freestyledork <freestyledork!~freestyle@unaffiliated/freestyledork> has joined #gamedev[20:22:17] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has quit IRC (Quit: jprajzne)[20:51:21] *** ZeroSystem <ZeroSystem!45f81b6b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.248.27.107> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[20:57:55] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has joined #gamedev[20:57:57] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidpizz@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[21:04:10] <Donitzo> i I have an array representing my world state for all entities, and an array of property names[21:05:00] <Donitzo> a[0] === player0X, a[16] === player1X[21:05:28] <Donitzo> now how do I efficiently map these to local variables and back[21:05:39] <Donitzo> so I don't have to keep indexing stuff[21:05:48] <Donitzo> js[21:12:38] <LastTalon> let player0 = a[0]?[21:12:52] <LastTalon> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question.[21:16:51] *** moongazer <moongazer!~moongazer@unaffiliated/moongazer> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[21:16:58] <R2robot> is that even necessary?[21:18:10] <LastTalon> Indexing can have some overhead associated with it, but I'm not sure its going to matter if its only done such a small amount.[21:18:42] <R2robot> that's what I mean by is it even necessary[21:18:51] <LastTalon> That's why I said it. :P[21:18:58] <R2robot> that's why I asked it[21:19:00] <R2robot> :P[21:19:02] <LastTalon> Indeed.[21:19:31] <pulse> you have an array of property names?[21:19:35] <pulse> wut[21:22:30] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidpizz@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has joined #gamedev[21:27:06] *** refs <refs!~refs@dslb-178-005-226-169.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined #gamedev[21:27:31] <Donitzo> yes[21:27:53] <Donitzo> ['x', 'y', 'velocityX', 'velocityY'] etc.[21:27:58] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[21:31:28] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidpizz@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[21:31:37] <Guest26816> I am currently preparing the Sonniss GameAudioGDC bundle. (It's 25GB this year). Can anyone throw a seedbox in my direction? Or help torrent the files for the next couple of days?[21:32:11] *** Guest26816 is now known as TimoMchugh[21:32:16] <TimoMchugh> https://sonniss.com/GameAudioGDCPart5.torrent[21:34:05] <R2robot> risky af[21:34:43] <LastTalon> R2robot, y?[21:35:15] <R2robot> Some rando shows up and asks to host a torrent? Hard pass. :P[21:35:22] <LastTalon> I c[21:46:43] <soman> When we talk about position in frameworks like SDL or SFML what units we mean? Pixels?[21:48:23] <LastTalon> Arbitrary Distance Units™[21:48:49] <LastTalon> They don't always have a name.[21:48:59] <LastTalon> I can't speak for if they're named in those.[21:49:29] <LastTalon> I remember in the source engine they're hammer units.[21:49:56] <R2robot> yeah, I use corona and it's based on the original iphone screen size.[21:50:03] <LastTalon> I wouldn't call them pixel, they're for screen space.[21:50:28] <R2robot> but it scales up automatically on larger/newer devices[21:51:16] <LastTalon> If you really need one you can create a name for them internally for your project.[21:51:28] <LastTalon> Otherwise I'd just say units.[21:52:33] <LastTalon> Sometimes they're supposed to be real units like meters or feet because the engine uses this to scale things you normally wouldn't care too much about scaling.[21:52:43] <LastTalon> Like gravity and light falloff.[21:52:54] <soman> How can I decide how these units related to pixels? LastTalon, R2robot, could you advice me some links/book where can I read how to correctly handle these units?[21:53:10] <LastTalon> soman, well that's going to depend on where your camera is.[21:53:21] <LastTalon> Turning world space into screen space is called projection.[21:53:22] <R2robot> soman: it varies by sdk/framework.[21:53:54] <LastTalon> Anything that covers graphics rendering or a graphics pipeline probably covers that somewhere.[21:54:25] <LastTalon> For a general understanding.[21:54:40] <LastTalon> For specific understanding in your framework, you'll want to check its docs.[21:55:32] <soman> LastTalon, R2robot: it means that I should choose this relation (units -> pixels) myself depending on my game/engine? I use SDL now with simple shape based physics.[21:55:48] <LastTalon> You can't just convert units to pixels.[21:55:51] <LastTalon> There's no conversion ratio.[21:56:07] <LastTalon> It depends on what method of projection you're using and how far away objects are, and what angle they are from the camera.[21:58:53] <soman> LastTalon: ok thanks[21:59:16] <LastTalon> soman, imagine you have a real life camera and ruler. You take a picture of the ruler and measure how many pixels across it is in the photo. Now you take 10 steps back from the ruler and take another picture and measure the pixels in the new photo. It'll be a different number.[21:59:29] *** ZeroSystem <ZeroSystem!45f81b6b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.248.27.107> has joined #gamedev[22:01:07] <soman> LastTalon: good comparison, I think I understand you. Will it lead me to converison ratio?[22:01:38] <LastTalon> soman, no, but it'll lead you to answer your question.[22:01:49] <LastTalon> soman, by that time you'll understand why there's no conversion ratio.[22:02:33] <LastTalon> soman, a computer graphics textbook or tutorial or whatever will teach you want you need to know in a section that covers projection.[22:03:38] <soman> LastTalon: then instead of thinking about converting (take pos -> convert -> draw at converted position using framework) I need to think about camera settings?[22:03:57] <LastTalon> soman, your framework probably handles this for you.[22:04:26] <LastTalon> But yes, essentially, it'll most likely be done through tweaking camera settings in almost any framework.[22:05:15] <LastTalon> I've yet to find a framework that doesn't use euclidean space for its world objects, so...[22:05:45] <LastTalon> Guessing it'll be the same for you. :P[22:06:24] <soman> LastTalon: ok, goodm thanks[22:07:28] *** Serpent7776 <Serpent7776!~Serpent77@90-156-31-193.internetia.net.pl> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[22:08:29] <LastTalon> soman, why are you trying to convert to screen space? I might be able to give you a quicker answer if I knew that.[22:09:51] *** Tylak <Tylak!~Tylak@074-135-002-092.res.spectrum.com> has joined #gamedev[22:10:31] <soman> LastTalon: I don't. Just thinked about API of some objects in my game and stopped at set_pos() funcs which lead me to this question because I don't remember that documentations talk about pixels.[22:11:10] <LastTalon> My guess would be that its talking about position in world space.[22:11:26] <LastTalon> Unless its strictly 2D, then the screen space and world space may be the same.[22:11:29] <soman> LastTalon: so the 1st and fast idea was to convert units and pixels[22:11:47] <soman> LastTalon: 2d, yes[22:12:23] <LastTalon> Then it could possibly be in pixels.[22:12:34] <soman> LastTalon: screen space is the rectangle of the game's main window?[22:12:43] <LastTalon> If its 2D there may not be a world space and might only be a screen space.[22:13:21] <LastTalon> soman, yeah, basically.[22:14:56] <mijowh> https://learnopengl.com/Getting-started/Coordinate-Systems[22:19:15] <LastTalon> soman, looks like SFML calls it a "view"[22:22:17] <LastTalon> mijowh, nice link.[22:22:21] <soman> LastTalon: yeah there are view and viewport[22:22:37] <soman> mijowh: thanks for the link, seems cool[22:23:01] <mijowh> LastTalon: the way i see it, if you want to understand what your doing, you gotta hit that low level[22:23:12] <mijowh> & remember, NDC values depends on underlyin graphics api[22:23:18] <mijowh> opengl != vulkan coordinates[22:23:51] <mijowh> i think opengl and directx share the same mapping, but im unfamiliar with dx[22:24:08] <LastTalon> Yeah, I'm not very familiar with d3d either.[22:24:26] <mijowh> ultimately, your rendering ends up with coords in the 2d ranges of -1 to 1x,y[22:24:39] <mijowh> (on opengl)[22:24:44] <LastTalon> All I really understand about it is it that its similar enough to opengl that if you understand opengl you could if you desired apply that knowledge to d3d.[22:24:53] <mijowh> whether it be 3d or 2d or what have you that your rendering[22:24:57] <mijowh> the gpu handles it all the same[22:25:48] *** darkside86 <darkside86!~ismai@97-81-155-106.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[22:25:58] <mijowh> if your using a higher level api, like some rendering library, those NDC ranges are less relevant to you specifically[22:26:03] <mijowh> as its abstracted away in most cases[22:26:11] <mijowh> HOWEVER, you should still understand whats happening[22:26:23] <mijowh> just because an engine hides it from you, doesnt mean its not important[22:27:22] <mijowh> esp if youre expected to write your own shaders[22:28:26] <mijowh> like, the same shader will produce dif results on opengl and vulkan (screen will be mirrored and flipped) because you need to transpose your matrices, since one api uses row-major matrices and the other column-major[22:28:49] <mijowh> well, vulkan doesnt have a concept of matrices, but that gagain going pretty deep >.>[22:30:35] * LastTalon quickly transposes all of his matrices[22:31:07] <mijowh> its because the two apis use dif ndc ranges. starting at top left[22:31:25] <mijowh> if your code works on opengl, youll need to transpose your view matrix on vulkan to get identical result[22:31:55] <mijowh> because youll produce the opposite NDC range (vulkan has backwards ndc coords)[22:31:59] <LastTalon> When I had a graphics class in uni my professor randomly decided our matrices would go one way because he liked doing our calculations better with them that way, but then we had to flip them all to pass to opengl. :D[22:32:07] <mijowh> hehe[22:32:10] <LastTalon> So I am to this day confused which way I'm meant to put them. :D[22:32:14] <mijowh> he was prob a Dx programmer then[22:32:31] <LastTalon> Nah, he's just super particular about everything.[22:32:34] <mijowh> vulkan and dx have the same NDC mapping (dx is the reasoning for vulkans choice of that during design)[22:32:39] <LastTalon> And its best not to argue with him when he says to do it one way.[22:32:43] <mijowh> but opengl is opposite[22:33:00] <mijowh> yeah, do what your professors tell you but in the back of your mind take it all with a grain of salt[22:33:07] <mijowh> and read the specifications like a real nerd[22:33:09] <LastTalon> I should have recorded some of the arguments I had with him when he thought his instructions said one thing but instead said something else.[22:33:41] <LastTalon> And he was adamant that I "should have asked him" about very clear instructions just because they said something he didn't realize.[22:33:47] <LastTalon> Lol[22:34:24] <mijowh> i broke my vulkan rendering path a few weeks ago and havent bothered to try and fix it. dont even know whats wrong >.>[22:34:28] <LastTalon> (He gave me the points on the assignment)[22:35:39] <mijowh> vulkan is super verbose. if you want to learn gpus, draw yourself a cube in vulkan. in the process youll pick up quite alot about how gpus actually handle whats going on[22:36:08] <LastTalon> So I've heard.[22:36:22] <mijowh> render a cube in only 2k lines of C ![22:36:25] <mijowh> hehe[22:37:45] <mijowh> https://vulkan-tutorial.com/[22:39:26] <mijowh> but yeah i wont feign expertise on the subject, i know enough for my basic rendering system. it leaves ALOT to be desired still[22:39:51] <mijowh> using simple forward rendering paths, inefficient memory allocs, no caching[22:40:05] <mijowh> ill work on that next year[22:40:16] <LastTalon> Yeah, this is sort of why I advocate for just using an engine on peoples' initial go at stuff.[22:40:31] <mijowh> yeah i first started in unity[22:40:46] <LastTalon> Otherwise you just bury yourself in work you didn't even know about when you started.[22:40:47] <mijowh> was real simple there but i had no idea what was happening lower[22:41:01] <mijowh> now i have a grasp of the basics[22:41:32] <LastTalon> Got no problem if you want to do graphics or if you want to make an engine or if you just want to learn.[22:41:49] <LastTalon> But if you come in saying something like "I want to make a game, but I don't want to use an engine." that sounds like a contradiction to me.[22:41:58] <mijowh> that is[22:42:01] <LastTalon> Or it sounds like you have many years to waste.[22:42:06] <LastTalon> At the most gracious interpretation[22:42:10] <mijowh> even if you do it yourself, you end up writing your own engine in the process[22:42:14] <LastTalon> ^[22:42:27] <mijowh> and yes, it takes years[22:42:31] <mijowh> im about 3 years in[22:42:37] <mijowh> well[22:42:39] <mijowh> 4 now[22:42:45] <mijowh> if im being honest[22:42:53] <LastTalon> I don't know how to convey the gravity of it to people just getting started.[22:42:54] <mijowh> but on a weekend basis[22:43:11] <LastTalon> Its one of the things I'm pondering atm.[22:43:12] <mijowh> basically, if you have no social life and can live on ramen and coffee, go for it[22:43:34] <mijowh> or if youre willing to sacrifice every weekend for next 6 years[22:43:37] <LastTalon> In my experience if you just come out and say it they find a reason to ignore it.[22:44:06] <mijowh> i encourage people to get into the guts of things like that[22:44:14] <LastTalon> They either assume its wrong, or assume it won't apply to them.[22:44:14] <mijowh> but i wont misrepresent the difficulty associated[22:44:17] <LastTalon> Stuff like that.[22:44:52] <LastTalon> Well I don't discourage them from learning it. I just try to get them to understand what it entails. And if their goal really is to make a game, then my advice is to start with an existing engine.[22:45:11] <mijowh> yeah sure it wont apply, you can just write a single group of shaders for opengl. opengl is cross platform right, so itll jsut work everywhere? yeah itll be easy i can do this.[22:45:13] <mijowh> hehe[22:45:36] *** notchris <notchris!~notchris@c-73-16-120-84.hsd1.ct.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Quit: notchris)[22:45:45] <LastTalon> There's a lot of dunning kruger for some reason in programming.[22:45:52] <LastTalon> Where people all think they're rockstars.[22:45:56] <mijowh> dunning kruger?[22:46:11] <LastTalon> And that when people tell them it'll take them years they seem to think that for them it means it'll take weeks.[22:46:26] <mijowh> oh yeah exactly[22:46:43] <LastTalon> Dunning kruger is a bias to think that you know better or are better.[22:46:53] <mijowh> they be like "im smart so that doesnt apply to me" well guess what, were all programmers. most gamedevs are quite smart and it STILL takes years[22:46:57] *** soman <soman!~soman@188.235.36.2> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)[22:47:00] <mijowh> that should indicate the workload lmao[22:47:05] <LastTalon> Exactly.[22:47:23] <LastTalon> You gotta remember it takes teams of experts years to do it, too.[22:47:30] <mijowh> mhmm[22:48:30] <LastTalon> From what I gather, this is the most common failure in game dev actually.[22:48:56] <LastTalon> People will over-optimistically project the amount of time and work things will take and the amount of features they can feasibly put into their work.[22:49:40] <LastTalon> Like even when trying to give a conservative estimate they'll be over optimistic.[22:50:01] <LastTalon> For people starting out I mean.[22:50:02] <mijowh> i imagine my game project will be playable in about 2 years, by the time i graduate. i hope. ofc reality may kick my ass later on in a system i havent really thought about enough yet and extend that[22:50:15] <mijowh> but i think its a fair estimate at the rate ive been working[22:50:32] <LastTalon> I mean you've been working at it for some years already.[22:50:37] <mijowh> indeed[22:50:51] <LastTalon> What percent done would you say you are?[22:51:07] <mijowh> engine 75%, game itself 5%[22:51:32] <LastTalon> If I had to take a stab in the dark I'd guess that when you started you thought you'd be done by now.[22:51:56] <mijowh> the engine stuff is down to fixing vulkan rendering, finishing physics, and implementing audio (currently no audio at all)[22:52:09] <mijowh> Yes.[22:52:17] <pulse> how to tell the difference between good and bad programmer? bad programmer will tell you how to write your program. good programmer will tell you how not to write your program[22:52:20] <pulse> :^)[22:52:37] <mijowh> i built a prototype in like unity 3.5 and things were going alright, i quickly had something bascially playable, and started buiding my own systems[22:52:42] <LastTalon> pulse, don't write a program, go plan how you're going to write your program. :P[22:52:50] <mijowh> i knew i was biting off a bit problem[22:52:54] <mijowh> but i didnt know the entire scope[22:53:02] <mijowh> sp/big problem[22:53:41] <LastTalon> Right, and that's sort of where the dunning-kruger effect comes in. You simply can't know what you don't know.[22:53:48] <mijowh> true that[22:53:56] <mijowh> there were points, even recently, where ive felt overwhelmed[22:54:07] <mijowh> thats when you need to step away for a couple months[22:54:11] <mijowh> and let the burn-out pass[22:54:15] <mijowh> and get back on the horse[22:54:27] <LastTalon> And I've tried everything to try and get people to understand this simple fact.[22:54:51] <mijowh> i dont think you can fully appreciate it until you try it yourself[22:55:04] <LastTalon> Probably.[22:55:21] <LastTalon> But I at least want a way to help sort of... prime people for this idea.[22:55:54] <mijowh> yeah i think for most people, they should just use a third party engine like unity[22:56:10] <LastTalon> I don't like the idea of people getting turned away from game dev because they spend large amounts of time working on something that I tried to explain would take large amounts of time.[22:56:14] <mijowh> otherwise theyll probably get jaded to the whole idea of making games[22:56:25] <LastTalon> That exactly.[22:56:38] <mijowh> i find it so fulfilling to get those time consuming low level things finally working[22:56:52] <mijowh> like the day that your networking code hums beautifully that you spent months on[22:57:01] <mijowh> the endorphins are worth it imo[22:57:01] <LastTalon> For some people that's fine, they like doing it. But for others it can feel like spending 3 years to reach the starting line.[22:57:38] <mijowh> well it pretty much is spending years to reach the starting line[22:57:45] <LastTalon> And it doesn't help that a lot of people coming to it are amateurs who don't have an appreciation for why people make tools and why they're useful.[22:57:49] *** knops <knops!~yannick@ip-62-143-84-11.hsi01.unitymediagroup.de> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[22:57:59] <LastTalon> Like... its hard to explain why an engine is an extremely useful tool.[22:58:09] <LastTalon> And they shouldn't avoid it just cuz its daunting.[22:58:50] <LastTalon> (TBF, its a lot less daunting than making an engine)[22:58:57] *** knops <knops!~yannick@ip-62-143-84-11.hsi01.unitymediagroup.de> has joined #gamedev[22:59:21] <mijowh> well you need such tools of some form if you expect to make a game[22:59:28] <mijowh> whether you make the tools yoursel for use someone elses[22:59:35] <LastTalon> They have trouble understanding that, too.[22:59:49] <mijowh> i mean, theres a middle ground there like if youre using bullet and openscenegraph yourself, you arent really building an engine[22:59:57] <mijowh> but those components themselves arent an engine[23:00:04] <LastTalon> I've talked to people who don't seem to understand that there is no functional difference between a collection of tools and frameworks that would do everything an engine can do and just using a prebuilt engine.[23:00:05] <mijowh> i guess that like the inbetween[23:00:45] <LastTalon> The best you can do is sort of like you're saying, you can take parts and build a more streamlined version of an engine from them.[23:01:02] <LastTalon> But to do that you'd need the expertise and knowledge of those tools. :D[23:01:07] <LastTalon> Which you don't starting out.[23:01:27] *** ShadowIce <ShadowIce!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[23:02:11] <LastTalon> But there isn't just like... some starter kit that you can grab that would do all of that. We'd call that an engine. :P[23:03:57] <LastTalon> Idk. These are sort of the issues I'm just pondering how to cut to the chase on to get people the information they need when starting out.[23:04:18] <mijowh> need some copypast article for such folks with a transcript of this convo[23:04:20] <mijowh> heh[23:04:28] <LastTalon> That's basically my idea.[23:04:33] <LastTalon> Just write an article and link it.[23:04:43] <mijowh> you should, then[23:04:48] <LastTalon> But idk if people would actually read it. Lol[23:04:50] <mijowh> alot fo people may find it useful[23:04:58] <LastTalon> No one likes coming to irc for help and being given a link to read.[23:05:06] <mijowh> if starting gamedevs get linked an article about starting development, and they dont read it, thats on them.[23:05:28] <LastTalon> I'd much prefer a few soundbytes and arguments I can throw out that would get the idea across.[23:05:31] <mijowh> if they come to irc looking for a quick answer on such a massive topic, they dont belong here anyway[23:05:40] <mijowh> there is no magic button[23:05:44] <LastTalon> mijowh, I see you're new to irc. :P[23:05:51] <mijowh> no, but im an idealist[23:05:55] <LastTalon> Me, too. :P[23:06:04] <mijowh> people should learn to RTFM sometimes, y;know?[23:06:15] <mijowh> and not get pissy if they ask a basic question that can be solved by RTFM[23:06:15] <LastTalon> It frustrates me to no end how to answer these questions that take years to understand the answer to. Lol[23:06:24] <mijowh> which gets them linked to TFM[23:06:27] <LastTalon> "Which language should I use?" "Hire a CTO"[23:06:33] <mijowh> read it, damnit[23:06:45] <LastTalon> Yeah. I understand the feeling.[23:07:00] <LastTalon> Like half of the questions can be answered that way.[23:07:06] <LastTalon> Just hire a CTO[23:07:10] *** Noldorin <Noldorin!~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin> has joined #gamedev[23:07:20] <LastTalon> If you don't know how to get that answer that's what a CTO's job is.[23:07:27] <mijowh> i feel like for basic questions, linking to the manual is entirely appropriate, and its on the asker to go read it and find the answer[23:07:49] <LastTalon> mijowh, I might start the process and see where it gets me.[23:07:51] <mijowh> if the question is deeper, or more specific, and the asker clearly has knowledge, thats when ill go in depth with trying to help myself[23:08:00] <LastTalon> I'm still in the "generating ideas" phase of this.[23:08:21] <o][o> are you discussing the roles of a CTO here? loooooool[23:08:33] <LastTalon> Not really. More discussing people who need a CTO[23:08:45] <LastTalon> And come to irc hoping to get an answer in 5 minutes.[23:09:18] <mijowh> love seeing someone log in, ask a question, 5 mins later post an annoyed question mark, then part chat[23:09:25] <LastTalon> Yeah.[23:09:27] <mijowh> like, thats not how learning works.[23:10:09] <LastTalon> Or the people who get annoyed that people keep having their conversation rather than dropping everything to answer a new question.[23:10:27] <pulse> humans are insuferable[23:10:32] <LastTalon> Humans suck. :P[23:10:40] <LastTalon> What are they good for anyway?[23:10:47] <pulse> consuming my games[23:10:51] <pulse> :p[23:10:52] <mijowh> indeed. on the occassions where i ask questions of irc, i have no problem with patiently waiting. if it was a quick solution i wouldnt have needed to ask anyway[23:10:58] <mijowh> and irc can soemtimes take hours to get a reply[23:11:09] <mijowh> cause yeah theres hundreds of people in chan, but most are busy atm[23:11:25] <LastTalon> Lol. Half the time a channel can be dead for days at a time.[23:11:35] <mijowh> and even fewer might have enough expertise to be helpful[23:11:52] <LastTalon> Yeah, there was a guide on asking questions I read.[23:11:58] *** GouldFish <GouldFish!~GouldFish@cpc77040-warw18-2-0-cust520.3-2.cable.virginm.net> has joined #gamedev[23:12:02] <mijowh> so when you see folks with that "entitlement" or desire for instant gratification, what can you really do anyway?[23:12:07] <mijowh> they simply wont make it.[23:12:14] <LastTalon> I remember it said that when you're asking questions to a group like this you're basically hoping to find the person who knows the thing you need to know.[23:12:19] <mijowh> whether you write an article, try to explain reality to them, whatever[23:12:20] <LastTalon> Which may only be one guy.[23:13:09] <LastTalon> So its ridiculous to get annoyed that you don't get an answer right away or that people who are active aren't answering you.[23:13:19] <LastTalon> If they didn't answer they probably didn't know.[23:13:24] <mijowh> ^[23:13:27] <pulse> there's mostly two types of questions. one is the lost newbie that asks some newbie question like "is c++ good for gamedev" and starts a flamewar[23:13:36] <mijowh> if i have nothing to contribute, i remain silent[23:13:39] <pulse> and the other is the person who's done their research, asking for some really complex thing in super confined context[23:13:42] <pulse> and no one has the answer to[23:13:43] <mijowh> (although im often reading - muhahaha)[23:13:49] * mijowh is a lurker[23:14:03] <pulse> both have the misfortune of not getting answered properly[23:14:05] <LastTalon> A while back I remember there was someone new who was really impressed how many people looked really smart in irc and I did my best to explain to him that the reason so many of us look smart is because we only answer the things we know how to answer.[23:14:13] <mijowh> thats true pulse, hmm[23:14:31] <pulse> only the grey area in between the newbie and the expert question actually has a chance to become a productive exchange[23:14:38] <mijowh> im less concerned about newbie flamewar question[23:14:47] <mijowh> but for the other guy, thats unfortunate but all too common[23:14:49] <LastTalon> And when we have arguments its generally about little nuances that most people wouldn't care about. Lol[23:15:06] <pulse> ^[23:15:24] <pulse> newbie asks question, 30 people proceed to provide their opinions[23:15:31] <LastTalon> Yeah, I've noticed the same.[23:15:35] <pulse> which have mostly nothing to do with the question[23:15:42] <LastTalon> That's why my question answering strategy has shifted slightly.[23:15:53] <LastTalon> I now initially assume that people want a very very basic answer.[23:16:04] <LastTalon> So I ask a leading question to determine that.[23:16:55] <LastTalon> Although I'm afraid this can come off as condescending.[23:17:03] <pulse> oh, there's the third type of question... the newbie who asks X but really is solving Y[23:17:04] <LastTalon> So I'm not sure how I feel about it.[23:17:05] *** RoadKillGrill <RoadKillGrill!~RoadKillG@cpe-75-187-139-141.neo.res.rr.com> has joined #gamedev[23:17:10] <LastTalon> pulse, nailed it.[23:17:13] <mijowh> oh yeah pulse, that happens alot[23:17:16] <pulse> countless hours wasted on XY questions[23:17:33] <LastTalon> "How do I X?" "You do A, B, and C." "That doesn't do Y."[23:17:39] <pulse> :p[23:17:39] <LastTalon> Lol[23:17:49] <mijowh> then they get annoyed when people are like "what are you actually trying to solve, what is this for? maybe theres a better way."[23:18:00] <LastTalon> And then you waste five minutes trying to erase A, B, and C from their mind.[23:18:10] <mijowh> "no, this is the way i have to do it, for reasons ive convinced myself of"[23:18:10] <pulse> from my experience it takes on average an hour and a half to come to the conclusion that XY question is about Y[23:18:42] <mijowh> https://xkcd.com/1700/[23:18:44] <LastTalon> Well the worst part is that they usually latch onto certain details in these scenarios that aren't solving their problem.[23:19:44] <LastTalon> And you have to sort of decondition them to get the idea out of their head.[23:20:05] *** Dwarden <Dwarden!Dwarden@static-84-42-238-19.net.upcbroadband.cz> has joined #gamedev[23:20:15] <LastTalon> Like earlier someone was convinced that because it was done[23:20:21] <LastTalon> Whoops[23:20:33] <LastTalon> Because it was done one way in JS it should look identical in ruby.[23:21:04] <LastTalon> Because he knew how to do the thing he wanted to do in JS, but needed to do it in ruby.[23:21:34] <LastTalon> And I just spent the entire time trying to explain that he should ignore JS.[23:23:55] <LastTalon> Anyway, here's a dog pretending to swim. https://i.imgur.com/ALjHhaZ.gifv[23:24:01] <mijowh> i dont really like JS, and i dont really know ruby[23:24:10] <mijowh> lmao[23:24:48] <LunarJetman> I've convinced myself that writing a universal compiler is a good idea and I am unmovable on this. NIH.[23:24:55] *** thomas_25 <thomas_25!~thomas_25@unaffiliated/thomas-25/x-0068438> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[23:24:57] <pulse> LastTalon, lol @ dog[23:38:37] *** Groogy <Groogy!~Groogy@90-227-38-205-no61.tbcn.telia.com> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.4)[23:45:41] *** Beliar <Beliar!~Beliar@2a02:8108:9640:6c42:a49e:5f8c:d47b:3dbd> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[23:54:18] *** knops <knops!~yannick@ip-62-143-84-11.hsi01.unitymediagroup.de> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[23:55:51] *** notchris <notchris!~notchris@c-73-16-120-84.hsd1.ct.comcast.net> has joined #gamedev