March 12, 2019 
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March 12, 2019 [00:01:44] *** freefork_afk is now known as freestyledork[00:11:50] *** knops <knops!~yannick@ip-62-143-84-11.hsi01.unitymediagroup.de> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:12:14] *** cheakoirccloud <cheakoirccloud!uid293319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gayxdaohklxezybk> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[00:25:14] *** thomas_25 <thomas_25!~thomas_25@unaffiliated/thomas-25/x-0068438> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[00:45:10] *** perplexity <perplexity!~perplexed@unaffiliated/perplexity> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[00:49:56] *** thomas_25 <thomas_25!~thomas_25@unaffiliated/thomas-25/x-0068438> has joined #gamedev[00:52:26] *** LunarJetman2 <LunarJetman2!LunarJetma@5ec16e1a.skybroadband.com> has joined #gamedev[00:55:31] *** LunarJetman <LunarJetman!LunarJetma@5ec16e1a.skybroadband.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[01:22:33] *** Buoy172 <Buoy172!~Buoy172@95.86.6.187> has joined #gamedev[01:33:37] *** adamsky <adamsky!~quassel@178235186241.unknown.vectranet.pl> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[01:33:38] *** LunarJetman2 <LunarJetman2!LunarJetma@5ec16e1a.skybroadband.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[01:34:27] *** LunarJetman2 <LunarJetman2!LunarJetma@5ec16e1a.skybroadband.com> has joined #gamedev[01:35:56] *** RoadKillGrill <RoadKillGrill!~RoadKillG@cpe-75-187-139-141.neo.res.rr.com> has joined #gamedev[01:46:56] *** freestyledork is now known as freefork_afk[02:03:04] *** freefork_afk is now known as freestyledork[02:03:55] *** LunarJetman2 <LunarJetman2!LunarJetma@5ec16e1a.skybroadband.com> has left #gamedev[02:22:51] *** Tylak <Tylak!~Tylak@074-135-002-092.res.spectrum.com> has joined #gamedev[02:43:30] *** refs <refs!~refs@dslb-178-005-228-022.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has quit IRC (Quit: refs)[02:52:23] *** terminx <terminx!~terminx@173-16-252-156.client.mchsi.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[02:53:07] *** terminx <terminx!~terminx@173-16-252-156.client.mchsi.com> has joined #gamedev[03:00:33] *** pulse_ <pulse_!~pulse@unaffiliated/pulse> has quit IRC (Quit: the cheetahmen ran off... and now ... the cheetahmen)[03:03:11] *** freestyledork is now known as freefork_afk[03:06:43] *** togo <togo!~togo@2a01:5c0:e08b:76e1:45:c1e6:1bae:629f> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[03:19:20] *** warweasle <warweasle!user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe26:d1db> has quit IRC (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1)[03:29:36] *** Overnumerousness <Overnumerousness!~Overnumer@184-96-214-76.hlrn.qwest.net> has joined #gamedev[03:43:49] <darkside86> The most fun I've ever had is rewriting 25% of my code due to designing it poorly to begin with.[03:48:56] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has joined #gamedev[03:51:14] *** RoadKillGrill <RoadKillGrill!~RoadKillG@cpe-75-187-139-141.neo.res.rr.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[04:04:47] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.4)[04:05:47] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has joined #gamedev[04:07:16] *** code_zombie <code_zombie!~code_zomb@2605:a601:aa1:da00:91f:6dfa:ca9d:8dcc> has joined #gamedev[04:21:20] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[04:21:49] *** rewind_ <rewind_!~rewind@2a01:e35:87d1:600:d92c:d22:c53f:fee1> has joined #gamedev[04:25:03] *** rewind <rewind!~rewind@2a01:e35:87d1:600:1c76:2a10:75b2:acc5> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[04:46:42] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has joined #gamedev[04:49:37] *** aeth <aeth!~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[04:51:27] *** aeth <aeth!~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn> has joined #gamedev[04:51:44] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[05:00:52] *** Buoy172 <Buoy172!~Buoy172@95.86.6.187> has quit IRC ()[05:13:03] *** Twipply <Twipply!~Twipply@unaffiliated/twipply> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[05:13:56] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[05:24:18] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[05:43:37] *** Tylak <Tylak!~Tylak@074-135-002-092.res.spectrum.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)[05:57:09] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[05:57:24] *** R2robot <R2robot!~R2robot@unaffiliated/r2ro> has quit IRC (Quit: Pull the lever, Kronk. Wrong leverrrrrrr!)[06:00:06] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has joined #gamedev[06:02:13] *** Beliar <Beliar!~Beliar@2a02:8108:9640:6c42:e1c8:e909:f310:bd6e> has joined #gamedev[06:06:34] *** [Relic] <[Relic]!~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:91d4:cc09:8eb6:144> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[06:15:56] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.4)[06:22:51] *** terminx <terminx!~terminx@173-16-252-156.client.mchsi.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[06:23:22] *** terminx <terminx!~terminx@173-16-252-156.client.mchsi.com> has joined #gamedev[06:30:10] *** Kelzorz <Kelzorz!~Kelzorz@162.104.220.155> has quit IRC (Quit: 0x80)[06:37:51] *** thomas_25 <thomas_25!~thomas_25@unaffiliated/thomas-25/x-0068438> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[06:48:15] *** Overnumerousness <Overnumerousness!~Overnumer@184-96-214-76.hlrn.qwest.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[06:49:15] *** S_Gautam <S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mdtlozjojbeisjzp> has joined #gamedev[06:59:10] *** R2robot <R2robot!~R2robot@unaffiliated/r2ro> has joined #gamedev[07:00:17] *** sebbu2 <sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu> has joined #gamedev[07:02:29] *** Nokurn_ <Nokurn_!~Nokurn@71-95-52-160.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com> has joined #gamedev[07:02:31] *** paracyst_ <paracyst_!paracyst@unaffiliated/paracyst> has joined #gamedev[07:02:53] *** mueslee <mueslee!mueslee@62.210.29.120> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[07:03:08] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has joined #gamedev[07:04:49] *** hunterco1l <hunterco1l!~huntercoo@199.241.143.139> has joined #gamedev[07:06:41] *** segnior_ <segnior_!segnior@gateway/shell/xshellz/x-ixocuzfezsxkmhup> has joined #gamedev[07:07:09] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[07:07:21] *** sebbu <sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[07:07:21] *** C9Agent <C9Agent!A@124-169-122-208.dyn.iinet.net.au> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[07:07:22] *** Iolo <Iolo!~iolo@dsl-tkubng22-58c023-38.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[07:07:22] *** segnior <segnior!segnior@gateway/shell/xshellz/x-osftrnniixpvauxk> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[07:07:22] *** Nokurn <Nokurn!~Nokurn@71-95-52-160.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com> has quit IRC (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2 - https://znc.in)[07:07:22] *** paracyst <paracyst!paracyst@unaffiliated/paracyst> has quit IRC (Quit: bye)[07:07:25] *** huntercool <huntercool!~huntercoo@199.241.143.139> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[07:07:25] *** Prestige <Prestige!~Prestige@pool-71-121-203-35.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[07:07:27] *** Iolo_ <Iolo_!~iolo@dsl-tkubng22-58c023-38.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[07:07:55] *** Iolo_ is now known as Iolo[07:08:12] *** Prestige <Prestige!~Prestige@pool-71-121-203-35.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net> has joined #gamedev[07:11:30] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)[07:20:14] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!~jprajzne@static-84-42-226-12.net.upcbroadband.cz> has quit IRC (Quit: jprajzne)[07:25:40] *** Beliar <Beliar!~Beliar@2a02:8108:9640:6c42:e1c8:e909:f310:bd6e> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[07:28:21] *** cheakoirccloud <cheakoirccloud!uid293319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tclxnzzdrsneujcj> has joined #gamedev[07:31:46] *** thomas_25 <thomas_25!~thomas_25@unaffiliated/thomas-25/x-0068438> has joined #gamedev[07:41:38] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!jprajzne@nat/redhat/x-smgpayazjyeelxuq> has joined #gamedev[07:50:38] <jprajzne> https://twitter.com/qntm/status/1105283419011977216 morning[07:51:06] <NiniGeo2> Hehe, awesome :3[07:58:51] *** _DB <_DB!6ccefbd9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.108.206.251.217> has joined #gamedev[08:06:33] *** zeduckmaster <zeduckmaster!~zeduckmas@85.106.1.181> has joined #gamedev[08:14:17] *** refsw <refsw!~refsw@80.150.130.51> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[08:19:21] *** stefkos <stefkos!~Pawel@79.184.3.26.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl> has joined #gamedev[08:21:26] *** knf <knf!~Mutter@106.51.240.91> has joined #gamedev[08:21:46] <knf> any physics dev here?[08:23:34] <DarkUranium> There's someone working on something, but he's not here ATM (comes here daily though)[08:23:39] <DarkUranium> DnzAtWork.[08:23:42] <DarkUranium> AtWrk*[08:23:56] <DarkUranium> I've dabbled in that, though. What's up?[08:29:25] <knf> I was wondering is integrating bullet physics is good option or should i start implementing my own physics. I wouldn’t require much physics. This of getting over it. That much physics only.[08:29:32] *** refsw <refsw!~refsw@80.150.130.51> has joined #gamedev[08:29:47] <jprajzne> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na4KHCO9lO8 a word from a pro :)[08:29:48] <knf> *think of getting over it[08:30:33] <NiniGeo2> I started out using my own physics code, and then I integrated Bullet physics. It was less hard than I thought it would be, but then again I only integrated certain specific parts of it (like the collision detection and tracing functions) and I didn't integrate collision resolution (I kept all of that my own code).[08:32:06] *** aindilis <aindilis!~aindilis@172-12-3-117.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[08:33:48] *** aindilis <aindilis!~aindilis@172-12-3-117.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net> has joined #gamedev[08:33:55] <knf> @jprajzne good talk. But trying to start from 2D and crona and whatever he is telling will be overhead now. Context switching is not good. I have already dived into directx and almost near the point of integrative phyiscs engine to see some gameplay[08:35:36] <jprajzne> knf: he mentioned that too, he recommends ready-to-use libs for creatives[08:36:45] <DarkUranium> knf, it depends.[08:36:54] <DarkUranium> I don't like Bullet myself, but if you need performance, it's the best option.[08:37:32] <knf> @Ninigeo my only concern is to manage the communication between bullet and directx. I define my meshes using DirectxMath and then bullet uses btVector3. I am hesitant because I might need to make them work together in cohesion. Managing a different library means you have learn it the way the devs wanted to.[08:38:06] <jprajzne> absolutely, that's why there're many of them[08:38:14] <NiniGeo2> It's never bad to learn more things knf :)[08:38:38] <NiniGeo2> But IIRC DirectXMath uses __m128 for its vectors, whereas Bullet's btVector3's are float3's.[08:38:48] <jprajzne> if you can string them together, yes. otherwise it's just all over the place...[08:38:50] <NiniGeo2> So I don't think that you can easily do a reinterpret_cast or anything to fix that up.[08:39:30] <knf> @Darkuranium you know what its just learning sse2 and using it. Bullet uses sse2 and thats why its faster. There is nothing special about third party libs. they all communicate with the hardware and you can communicate the same way if you know the protocols.[08:40:02] <DarkUranium> knf, Bullet is faster because it uses OpenCL.[08:40:12] <knf> Ninigeo2. I guess you are mistaken. I have seen bullet use __m128[08:40:45] <NiniGeo2> For its btVector3's?[08:41:20] <NiniGeo2> Oh yeah you're right, I see it there in BT_USE_SSE[08:41:45] <NiniGeo2> Okay cool then you *could* reinterpret_cast between the two if you needed to then :][08:44:34] <knf> XMVECTOR is dx general 4d vector. btvector3 is bullet’s. You think reinterpret_cast will not break anything?[08:45:39] <NiniGeo2> If they're both internally represented with __m128 and neither is doing anything weird with the element ordering, ]it should be fine.[08:49:45] <knf> NiniGeo2: btVector3 has union of __m128 and float[4]. XMVECTOR is just typedef of __m128.[08:50:06] <NiniGeo2> That should still be okay.[08:50:20] <knf> So before any cast. I have to make sure my btVector3 is initialized right?[08:50:21] <NiniGeo2> With default packing, the sizeof() all of those should be the same (16 bytes).[08:50:58] <NiniGeo2> I think you only need to do casts where your two systems are interfacing, and make sure to do so in places primarily where the vectors are being passed by reference or by pointer.[08:51:34] <knf> hmm. i am overly getting scared. I guess it should work[08:51:50] <NiniGeo2> Try it :][08:52:11] *** aindilis <aindilis!~aindilis@172-12-3-117.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[08:55:24] <knf> NiniGeo2: Lol VS is saying cast to type “DirectX::XMVECTOR” is not allowed[08:55:50] <knf> I am doomed[08:55:58] <NiniGeo2> Oh yeah, reinterpret_cast can only cast between pointer types.[08:56:23] <NiniGeo2> Are you doing something like: reinterpret_cast<btVector3*>(directXVecPtr) ?[08:58:08] <knf> I have one btVector3 point. I am casting it to XMVECTOR3. so reinterpret_cast<XMVECTOR3> (btVector3Var>[09:00:35] <knf> But this makes me wonder that either of them serve the same purpose. i.e do fast matrix operation. If I am building my own physics engine I should use DXMath. If I am using bullet them I should use all bullet structures. Both mutually exclusively serve the same purpose. There is no need to use both in same application. Am I right is it?[09:00:37] <NiniGeo2> Well if you want to convert between concrete objects that aren't pointers or references, then you'll need to use a conversion.[09:03:31] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.126.109.232> has joined #gamedev[09:06:12] *** aindilis <aindilis!~aindilis@172-12-3-117.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net> has joined #gamedev[09:10:51] <knf> NiniGeo2: well I can simple assign XMVECTOR = btVector3Var.mVec128[09:11:00] <knf> works[09:11:03] <NiniGeo2> Yep~[09:11:04] *** knf <knf!~Mutter@106.51.240.91> has quit IRC (Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com)[09:12:02] *** sebbu2 is now known as sebbu[09:22:22] <R2robot> hah, i've basically been saying what Romero has been saying. :D[09:22:43] *** knf <knf!~knf@106.51.240.91> has joined #gamedev[09:23:22] <NiniGeo2> :P[09:24:36] <knf> NiniGeo2: I got disconnected. Did you get my idea? to either use bullet structures or DirectXMath structure. That was correct is it?[09:24:48] <NiniGeo2> Well, you can mix the two if you need to~[09:25:36] <knf> hmm[09:48:08] *** cheakoirccloud <cheakoirccloud!uid293319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tclxnzzdrsneujcj> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[09:52:18] *** knf <knf!~knf@106.51.240.91> has quit IRC (Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com)[09:57:28] *** powerbit <powerbit!~powerbit@5-15-49-54.residential.rdsnet.ro> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[10:11:01] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[10:23:26] *** BrahRah <BrahRah!~BrahRah@85.203.15.26> has joined #gamedev[10:26:32] *** adamsky <adamsky!~quassel@178235186241.unknown.vectranet.pl> has joined #gamedev[10:40:29] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[10:43:38] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df0a2-207.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[10:44:32] <DnzAtWrk> been reading about genetic programming all day[10:44:36] <DnzAtWrk> mmm, I feel the need[10:44:56] <NiniGeo2> The need to give it a whirl?[10:45:01] <DnzAtWrk> yes[10:45:07] <DnzAtWrk> but, forget expression trees[10:45:15] <DnzAtWrk> I want to do it stack based since it's clearly superior[10:45:26] <jprajzne> DnzAtWrk: that's neat[10:45:52] <DnzAtWrk> I also want to use proglets instead of a single huge program, and only crossover complete proglets[10:46:14] <DnzAtWrk> and no size restrictions on the chromosomes[10:47:02] <DnzAtWrk> maybe exponentially punish the size of proglets, eh?[10:48:03] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[10:48:14] <DnzAtWrk> I am not sure how the proglets should communicate with each other though, or if they should be treated as functions[10:49:15] <DnzAtWrk> parallel programs work more line the human brain[10:49:22] <DnzAtWrk> than just calling functions[10:49:30] <DarkUranium> I'd argue for making this a pure functional language.[10:49:49] <DarkUranium> Means you can optimize better, and calling a proglet twice doesn't influence unrelated parts of the generated code.[10:49:58] <jprajzne> functions are actually parallelizable[10:50:05] <DarkUranium> That, too.[10:50:13] <DnzAtWrk> I think that it's intrinsically functional if I use the stack emthod[10:50:14] <DnzAtWrk> method*[10:50:21] <DarkUranium> If there's no global writes, ever, you can parallelize just about everything.[10:50:26] <DarkUranium> What's the stack method?[10:50:26] <DnzAtWrk> mmyes[10:50:39] <DnzAtWrk> I'll link this one paper, sec[10:50:42] <DarkUranium> (global reads are fine, BTW; you can take advantage of that for input)[10:51:23] <DnzAtWrk> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d992/1698680ca2327d7c242ebdb530707f170a4e.pdf?_ga=2.152471545.1724351983.1552384274-564049353.1552384274[10:51:26] <DnzAtWrk> scroll down to the tables[10:51:30] <DnzAtWrk> they explain it all[10:51:36] <DnzAtWrk> beautiful in its simplicity[10:51:48] <DarkUranium> Oh.[10:51:51] <DarkUranium> That's nothing new.[10:51:56] <DnzAtWrk> well no shit[10:52:02] <DnzAtWrk> it was invented like 20-30 years ago[10:52:07] <DarkUranium> I thought you meant some novel concept, not literally a stack-based language.[10:52:15] <DarkUranium> My point is, it has nothing to do with genetic programming.[10:52:29] <DarkUranium> (can be used for it, sure, but nothing to do with it per se)[10:52:44] <DarkUranium> It's just an encoding of a syntax tree in RPN, really.[10:52:44] <DnzAtWrk> the stack method of GP is GP[10:52:55] <DnzAtWrk> http://geneticprogramming.com/about-gp/stack-based-gp/[10:53:06] <DarkUranium> One exception here is that a syntax tree doesn't have to evaluate all branches. You'll need some sort of traps for e.g. division by 0.[10:53:33] <DarkUranium> Sure. But you made it sound like it's something GP-specific.[10:54:00] *** code_zombie <code_zombie!~code_zomb@2605:a601:aa1:da00:91f:6dfa:ca9d:8dcc> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[10:54:33] <DnzAtWrk> you can do all kinds of branching and loops with either method[10:54:42] <DnzAtWrk> I was planning on including a jmp operator[10:54:49] <DnzAtWrk> well, I'm not sure yet what operators would be optimal[10:54:55] <DnzAtWrk> jump to line? jump relative lines[10:55:05] <DnzAtWrk> jump if not zero[10:55:09] <DarkUranium> I'd say relative instructions.[10:55:27] <DarkUranium> Absolute stuff is not very useful in GP.[10:55:30] <NiniGeo2> What exactly do you want to try to use genetic programming to achieve?[10:55:49] <DnzAtWrk> that's a later problem[10:56:15] <DarkUranium> It's a now problem in that the best approach depends on the goals.[10:56:40] <DnzAtWrk> just like the implementation of MLP depends on the goals?[10:57:03] <DnzAtWrk> not the structure, the implementation[10:57:34] <DarkUranium> What's MLP here?[10:57:42] <DnzAtWrk> it certiantly isn't my little pony[10:57:45] <DnzAtWrk> multilayer perceptron[10:58:02] <DarkUranium> Well, the implementation of MLP doesn't, because MLP is exactly one thing.[10:58:08] <DarkUranium> But the implementation of a neural net does.[10:58:19] <DarkUranium> You have MLP, you have variants such as recurrent networks, you have mesh-based networks.[10:58:21] <DarkUranium> All neural nets.[10:58:22] <DnzAtWrk> of course, but the MLP model itself is highly generic[10:58:25] <DnzAtWrk> works for all kinds of issues[10:58:33] <DarkUranium> In theory, yes.[10:58:37] <DarkUranium> In practice, not that well.[10:58:40] <DarkUranium> Same with GP.[10:58:52] <DarkUranium> There's even a theorem about this (the No Free Lunch theorem --- yes, that's the actual name)[10:58:52] <DnzAtWrk> technically it works for anything that regular regression works for[10:58:54] <DnzAtWrk> I believe[10:59:13] <DarkUranium> Look up the NFL theorem.[10:59:34] <DarkUranium> I'll put it this way, there's a reason why we didn't get all this cool deep learning stuff until we abandoned the MLP.[10:59:47] <DnzAtWrk> not nothing, but something generic[10:59:50] <DarkUranium> (or at least augmented it into something that's MLP+stuff)[11:00:01] <DarkUranium> ?[11:00:13] <DnzAtWrk> what am I trying to say is I want to make something highly generic and then match a problem to it[11:00:57] <DnzAtWrk> good tools shouldn't be limited to solving one thing only[11:00:59] <DarkUranium> I'm saying that, if you pick the wrong approach, it will be doable in theory, but not in practice.[11:01:15] <DarkUranium> Real machines have finite memory and (for practical purposes) finite time.[11:01:49] <DarkUranium> E.g. it's theoretically possible for a machine to implement something like an IRC client.[11:02:05] <DarkUranium> (you resolve the halting problem by adding timeouts, since it needs to be responsive anyhow)[11:02:32] <DarkUranium> Is it practically possible? Absolutely not. The search space means it'd need absurd amounts of RAM and probably hundreds if not thousands of years.[11:03:41] <DnzAtWrk> yes, if you're trying to mimic some existing software, or use ea GA to evolve something that paints the Mona Lisa[11:03:46] <DnzAtWrk> not practical and not the point[11:03:48] <DarkUranium> Now, if you have a (hypothetical) algorithm that's *specific* to generating different IRC clients, reducing the search space, you might get somewhere.[11:03:52] <DnzAtWrk> use a*[11:03:57] <DarkUranium> You're missing the point.[11:04:05] <DarkUranium> The point is that the type of GA matters. A lot.[11:04:22] <DnzAtWrk> Well, the type of GP[11:04:23] <DarkUranium> In theory? No, you just need a single GA, one that operates over bit-vectors of the search space.[11:04:27] <DarkUranium> (there's mathematical proof for that)[11:04:30] <DnzAtWrk> GAs are even more generic than NNs[11:04:34] <DarkUranium> well, sure[11:04:35] <DarkUranium> type of GP then[11:04:48] <DarkUranium> Same idea, same issues (just reduced scope of them, since it's reduced family of algos)[11:05:30] <DarkUranium> Anyhow, in theory --- and there's a literal theorem about this --- you just need a GA that operates over bit-vectors, nothing else. Such a GA can do anything.[11:05:48] <DarkUranium> In practice, it's not practical for anything (it used to be used a lot, but then people realized it didn't perform that well)[11:06:17] <DarkUranium> Well, to be fair, there are *some* problem domains where it's the near-optimal (amongst known algorithms), I'm sure[11:06:21] <DarkUranium> But you get the point ... I hope.[11:06:24] <DnzAtWrk> yes I am perfectly aware. I am ususally the one arguing that trying to evolve virtual life from atomic parts is pretty hopeless[11:06:47] <DnzAtWrk> as I have asked several people[11:06:49] <DarkUranium> What I'm trying to say is that you should have a problem domain before you have your algorithm.[11:07:04] <DarkUranium> Unless this is just a learning project with no particular goal; then go ahead.[11:07:05] <DnzAtWrk> could a simulation implementing 3d particles and gravitation evolve life?[11:07:13] <DnzAtWrk> I think the answer is yes[11:07:41] <DarkUranium> I think the answer is "define life"[11:07:56] *** R2robot <R2robot!~R2robot@unaffiliated/r2ro> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)[11:08:01] <DnzAtWrk> creatures that can sense, react and reproduce most likely[11:08:34] <DarkUranium> Define "creature".[11:08:43] *** rmbeer <rmbeer!~rmbeer@unaffiliated/rmbeer> has joined #gamedev[11:08:48] <DarkUranium> Your above definition would include a good portion of computer-based simulations.[11:08:49] <DnzAtWrk> a creation which is distinct from another[11:09:01] <rmbeer> hello gays... or newbies...[11:09:08] <DarkUranium> In fact, Conway's Game of Life would be included.[11:09:11] *** R2robot <R2robot!~R2robot@unaffiliated/r2ro> has joined #gamedev[11:09:21] <DarkUranium> rmbeer, no u[11:09:43] <rmbeer> They missed me?[11:11:06] <DnzAtWrk> If I want to make proglets communicate I don't think I have a choice but to use global variables[11:11:15] <DnzAtWrk> I don't really see another reasonable option[11:11:32] <DnzAtWrk> parallel running programs doing their own things[11:13:31] *** togo <togo!~togo@2a01:5c0:e08b:76e1:45:c1e6:1bae:629f> has joined #gamedev[11:14:19] <DnzAtWrk> store x into global address y, read global address y[11:14:38] <DnzAtWrk> wait for and read global address y[11:15:17] <DnzAtWrk> just make sure they are set to null before running the program[11:15:29] <DarkUranium> Wouldn't a proglet be able to call another proglet?[11:15:45] <DnzAtWrk> that's one option, to treat proglets as functions[11:16:09] <DarkUranium> That's exactly what I said, make it (almost; you have immutable input) functional.[11:16:12] <DnzAtWrk> but that also makes it much more like a classical computer program, rather than a parallel redundant system[11:16:31] <DarkUranium> Actually, functions make it parallelizable.[11:16:33] <DarkUranium> Your approach does not.[11:16:56] <DnzAtWrk> you misunderstand what I mean by parallizable[11:17:01] <DnzAtWrk> I don't mean you can run multiple programs at once[11:17:06] <DnzAtWrk> I mean you run the proglets at once[11:17:08] <DnzAtWrk> one program[11:17:11] <DarkUranium> EXACTLY.[11:17:19] <DarkUranium> If you have writes into global state, you can't parallelize.[11:17:25] <DarkUranium> The globals serialize your entire program.[11:17:38] <DarkUranium> A pure functional style (you can consider globals a hidden argument anyhow) can be parallelized.[11:17:53] <DnzAtWrk> only when there needs to be communication[11:18:02] <DnzAtWrk> just like regular critical sections[11:18:08] <DnzAtWrk> doesn't mean that multithreading doesn't exist[11:18:12] <DarkUranium> So all reads/writes will be in a critical section?[11:18:25] <DarkUranium> You're talking about a single global lock. That won't parallelize well.[11:18:41] <DarkUranium> Also, how do you ensure the results don't depend on the scheduler?[11:18:59] <DnzAtWrk> I think it could easily be done using atomic writes[11:19:01] <jprajzne> you;ll have to handle the parallelization yourself in multithreaded context[11:19:01] <DarkUranium> (if they do, the result is useless, as it doesn't necessarily compute what the system *thinks* it does)[11:19:04] <DnzAtWrk> not a huge issue[11:19:09] <DarkUranium> Uh, no.[11:19:12] <DarkUranium> Atomic writes don't help at all.[11:19:12] <jprajzne> which you get for free with pure functions[11:19:24] <DarkUranium> Consider this, assuming 2 threads:[11:19:29] <DarkUranium> (in order of time)[11:19:40] <DarkUranium> a:=b is an atomic write[11:19:44] <DnzAtWrk> anyway, it's not about making functions. It's about adding redundancy more than anything[11:19:45] <DarkUranium> T1: a := 5[11:19:48] <DarkUranium> T2: a := 6[11:19:52] <DarkUranium> T1: do_stuff(a)[11:19:55] <DarkUranium> See the problem?[11:20:01] <DarkUranium> A different scheduler:[11:20:03] <DarkUranium> T1: a := 5[11:20:05] <DarkUranium> T1: do_stuff(a)[11:20:08] <DarkUranium> T2: a := 6[11:20:21] <jprajzne> in other words, the execution order is not guaranteed[11:20:23] <DarkUranium> (nevermind the fact that the 2nd assignment can happen *in* do_stuff)[11:20:32] <DarkUranium> Yeah. Which is why the *entire* program needs to be serialized.[11:20:37] <DarkUranium> Which is why atomic writes can't help you.[11:20:53] <jprajzne> atomic writes help in transactional systems[11:21:05] <DnzAtWrk> sure, I use a FIFO instead[11:21:08] <DnzAtWrk> again, small issues[11:21:11] <DarkUranium> Okay.[11:21:11] <jprajzne> where you roll back if something goes wrong[11:21:14] <DarkUranium> T1: push(5)[11:21:20] <DarkUranium> T2: push(6)[11:21:22] <DarkUranium> T1: pop()[11:21:25] <DnzAtWrk> It doesn't need to be exact[11:21:26] <DarkUranium> vs T1/T1/T2.[11:21:28] <DarkUranium> It does.[11:21:31] <DnzAtWrk> if it doesn't work it doesn't work[11:21:46] <DarkUranium> If your algorithm returns a result, you need to know the result works.[11:22:04] <DarkUranium> If it's at the mercy of the scheduler, it won't work in the vast majority of the cases.[11:22:20] <DarkUranium> (because you have scheduiling order that works, and many that don't)[11:22:26] <DarkUranium> 1* scheduling order[11:22:47] <jprajzne> the thing is that prioritization of threads won't help, too[11:23:41] <DnzAtWrk> http://www2.meteo.uni-bonn.de/staff/venema/essays/2004/genetic_programming_and_bloat.html[11:23:50] <DnzAtWrk> here is the article I base the proglet concept on[11:23:56] <DnzAtWrk> he explains it better[11:24:59] <DnzAtWrk> "Even if the proglets are as autonomous as possible, they will always have remaining interdependencies and will need to synchronize their actions. The proglets could do this themselves by signaling. For example, one proglet could set a variable in the global memory to signal that it has been executed, and another proglet could use this variable to determine whether it will make a calculation or not."[11:25:28] <jprajzne> well, he simulates parallelism in the synchronization section[11:26:05] <DnzAtWrk> that is fine if it cannot be achieved using multiple threads[11:26:20] <DarkUranium> With pure functions, you could use multiple threads.[11:26:30] <DnzAtWrk> yes but that misses the entire point[11:26:32] <DarkUranium> I don't consider your example to be parallelization.[11:26:46] <DarkUranium> I'd argue calling non-multithreaded code to be parallelization misses the entire point.[11:26:54] <jprajzne> he's simulating only if the hw is not capable of multithreading[11:27:06] <DnzAtWrk> Well you'd argue wrong :P[11:27:10] <jprajzne> which somehow i doubt is your case DnzAtWrk[11:27:12] <DarkUranium> jprajzne, okay, how does he ensure the I/O issues are avoided, then?[11:27:54] <DnzAtWrk> he doesn't[11:27:56] <jprajzne> he runs sequentially as he writes in the paper and does multiple runs in random order[11:28:31] <jprajzne> i just scrolled fast to the relevant section :))[11:28:46] <DnzAtWrk> I think the fundemental misconception here is that he is trying to program a classical program[11:29:03] <DnzAtWrk> which is completely deterministic[11:29:22] <DarkUranium> jprajzne, okay, makes more sense then.[11:29:31] <DarkUranium> Still bizzaire. I'd just encode this explicitly.[11:30:09] <DarkUranium> And it won't result in parallel code.[11:30:16] <jprajzne> i get that you want to mess with genes and generations and that does not need to be deterministic and thus reproducible 100%[11:30:55] <DnzAtWrk> a "wait for global signal" operator would still allow you to bypass some of the issues[11:31:00] <DnzAtWrk> but not the issue of re-assignment[11:31:01] <jprajzne> it's just that functional programming seems to offer better environment for this[11:31:02] <DarkUranium> but the result does.[11:31:04] <DnzAtWrk> unless you specifically forbit it[11:31:07] <DnzAtWrk> forbid it*[11:31:13] *** rmbeer <rmbeer!~rmbeer@unaffiliated/rmbeer> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[11:31:45] <DnzAtWrk> maybe a signal should SET something to true only[11:32:59] <jprajzne> see, you're already thinking too much :))[11:33:17] <DnzAtWrk> well, it would eliminate all race conditions[11:33:25] <DnzAtWrk> if that is a concern[11:33:37] <jprajzne> you'd get this for free without global state, external synchronization and with fp[11:49:21] <DnzAtWrk> what would you call an absolute vs relative jump operator[11:51:02] <jprajzne> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JMP_(x86_instruction) you mean this, DnzAtWrk?[11:51:23] <DnzAtWrk> yeah, but I need two separate operators[11:51:36] <DnzAtWrk> not sure how you would tell the difference otherwise[11:52:01] <jprajzne> idk either[11:52:09] <jprajzne> there's a short jump though[11:52:19] <jprajzne> https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/jmp[11:52:57] <DnzAtWrk> is it free?[11:54:23] <DnzAtWrk> http://nanite-os.herokuapp.com/manual.html[11:54:35] <DnzAtWrk> this is the manual to some previous assembly like scripting language I made[11:55:24] <DnzAtWrk> right, I just treated labels as constants with the line number on them and used goto label :P[11:55:25] <DnzAtWrk> blah[11:56:22] *** ZeroSystem <ZeroSystem!45f81b6b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.248.27.107> has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed)[12:08:25] <DarkUranium> DnzAtWrk, setting something to true only does not eliminate race conditions.[12:08:35] <DarkUranium> It only eliminates race conditions if you are not permitted to read the variable.[12:09:05] <DnzAtWrk> it does if you can only read it using wait for global signal[12:09:07] <DarkUranium> So then you need two kinds of variables: 1) read-only, 2) set-to-true only (this can actually be expanded to an arbitrary [datastructure, not operation] set[12:09:07] <DnzAtWrk> as I said[12:09:22] <DarkUranium> I think you're overengineering this just to avoid FP.[12:09:44] <DnzAtWrk> FP isn't what I want[12:09:52] <DnzAtWrk> it's an xy solution[12:10:01] *** Tylak <Tylak!~Tylak@074-135-002-092.res.spectrum.com> has joined #gamedev[12:10:44] <DarkUranium> On the other hand, doing some weird global wait + special set-true-only variables and so on sounds like an xz solution.[12:10:48] <DarkUranium> (where what you actually want is y)[12:11:19] <DarkUranium> What, exactly, is the problem with FP?[12:12:32] <DnzAtWrk> functional programming isn't about adding redundancy[12:12:53] <DarkUranium> This has absolutely nothing to do with redundancy.[12:13:03] <DnzAtWrk> No, my problem does[12:13:09] <DarkUranium> No, I mean[12:13:09] <DnzAtWrk> if you're talking about something else it is irrelevant[12:13:15] <DarkUranium> It's a completely orthogonal concept.[12:13:26] <DarkUranium> If anything, it *increases* redundancy compared to your approach.[12:13:41] <DarkUranium> Because your approach means that previous changes will eliminate redundancy in multiple places at once; here, they won't.[12:14:07] <DnzAtWrk> yes[12:14:30] <DnzAtWrk> no[12:15:13] <DnzAtWrk> again, this is not my approach[12:15:28] <DnzAtWrk> if you think the article is flawed, well so be it[12:15:34] <DnzAtWrk> but that's what I'm basing my opinion on right now[12:16:21] <DarkUranium> Just to be clear, FP in comp sci was literally *designed* with stuff like this in mind.[12:16:45] <DarkUranium> (this + nice mathematical correspondence; but this was the practical reason, whereas the mathematical part was the usability one)[12:17:10] <DarkUranium> (early AI research using Lisp and such)[12:28:10] *** S_Gautam <S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mdtlozjojbeisjzp> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[12:42:28] *** stefkos <stefkos!~Pawel@79.184.3.26.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[12:44:57] *** aly777 <aly777!~kes777@50-242-177-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net> has joined #gamedev[13:11:43] *** atomekk <atomekk!~atomekk@unaffiliated/atomekk> has joined #gamedev[13:11:46] *** atomekk <atomekk!~atomekk@unaffiliated/atomekk> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[13:12:06] *** andirc8089 <andirc8089!~andirc808@mycraft1.powered.by.lunarbnc.net> has joined #gamedev[13:12:46] *** DaScoot <DaScoot!~Scooter@static-24-153-33-9.cpe.metrocast.net> has joined #gamedev[13:14:11] <wPSvils> is there a C++ library that implements PPO (Proximal Policy Optimization) ?[13:18:51] * DaScoot sighs[13:19:32] <DaScoot> tech lead is complaining that I'm making models instead of waiting for other people to make them, when I have like 2 days of work on my schedule and the other model guy has about a month[13:24:28] <wPSvils> niiiiiiice[13:25:41] <kernel-sanders> don't work too hard, the reward is more work[13:29:44] *** bashes <bashes!~bashes@epiphyte.network> has left #gamedev ("bye")[13:31:30] *** xen74 <xen74!~xen74@2001:44b8:2e3:9b00:ab:7727:307a:b24d> has joined #gamedev[13:32:05] *** Twipply <Twipply!~Twipply@unaffiliated/twipply> has joined #gamedev[13:36:43] *** pulse <pulse!~pulse@unaffiliated/pulse> has joined #gamedev[13:40:48] *** toothlessg <toothlessg!~toothless@rrcs-24-103-153-67.nys.biz.rr.com> has joined #gamedev[13:53:34] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df0a2-207.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[13:55:52] *** BrahRah <BrahRah!~BrahRah@85.203.15.26> has quit IRC (Quit: KVIrc 4.9.2 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/)[14:01:26] <mijowh> if you love what you do, then thats okay[14:01:36] <mijowh> & good morning folks o/[14:04:55] <Cahaan> I'd love to work more, but for my projects, not for other's projects[14:05:11] <mijowh> ^[14:05:25] <mijowh> not enough time in the day for my projects[14:15:47] <kernel-sanders> no time + energy[14:18:01] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.126.109.232> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[14:18:39] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.126.109.232> has joined #gamedev[14:35:37] *** notchris <notchris!~notchris@67.218.88.131> has joined #gamedev[14:35:51] <notchris> o/[14:39:20] *** warweasle <warweasle!user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe26:d1db> has joined #gamedev[14:43:28] <warweasle> Did gamedev last night too. I'm getting better at this stuff.[14:44:52] *** aeth <aeth!~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[14:46:46] *** aeth <aeth!~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn> has joined #gamedev[15:02:23] *** dos11 <dos11!~dos1@neo900/coreteam/dos> has joined #gamedev[15:02:47] *** mr_lou <mr_lou!~misthalos@077213097222.dynamic.telenor.dk> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[15:03:12] *** mr_lou <mr_lou!~misthalos@077213097222.dynamic.telenor.dk> has joined #gamedev[15:09:20] *** ra4king1 <ra4king1!~ra4king@unaffiliated/ra4king> has joined #gamedev[15:09:45] *** testman <testman!~testman@cpe-92-37-1-56.dynamic.amis.net> has quit IRC (*.net *.split)[15:09:46] *** mfiano <mfiano!~mfiano@lispgames/developer/mfiano> has quit IRC (*.net *.split)[15:09:51] *** ra4king <ra4king!~ra4king@unaffiliated/ra4king> has quit IRC (*.net *.split)[15:09:51] *** dos1 <dos1!~dos1@neo900/coreteam/dos> has quit IRC (*.net *.split)[15:09:54] *** piklu <piklu!~piklu@199.187.121.86> has quit IRC (*.net *.split)[15:10:02] *** ra4king1 is now known as ra4king[15:10:20] *** testman <testman!~testman@cpe-92-37-1-56.dynamic.amis.net> has joined #gamedev[15:11:38] *** dos11 is now known as dos1[15:13:40] *** Iolo <Iolo!~iolo@dsl-tkubng22-58c023-38.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[15:14:15] *** Tylak <Tylak!~Tylak@074-135-002-092.res.spectrum.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)[15:15:21] *** Iolo <Iolo!~iolo@dsl-tkubng22-58c023-38.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[15:15:47] <warweasle> I hope I can get a secondary locomotion type working...with a sword.[15:15:50] *** mfiano <mfiano!~mfiano@lispgames/developer/mfiano> has joined #gamedev[15:16:02] <notchris> warweasle: what engine[15:16:36] <warweasle> Unreal.[15:17:15] <warweasle> I'm using the Advanced Locomotion System. So I've duplicated part of it and am modifying those movements to hold a sword.[15:18:42] <warweasle> I'm just making a rough draft where the code is correct. The animations might be sub-par until I get my model finalized.[15:19:08] <notchris> Niceee[15:19:41] <warweasle> But the ablity to change weapons, perform combos, add clothing and accessories, world interactions, etc. That's what I want to get working.[15:19:52] <notchris> You can do it![15:20:44] <warweasle> I just figured out something which I should have seen right away, but better late than never. I can retarget almost any animation to my skeleton.[15:22:40] <warweasle> I'm excited.[15:25:05] <DarkUranium> warweasle, sounds interesting, what kind of a game is it?[15:25:12] <DarkUranium> and what kind of combat system?[15:25:24] <DarkUranium> (e.g. in terms of pacing, damage amount, that sort of stuff)[15:25:27] <warweasle> An Atmospheric Third Person Gothic-Punk action RPG with vampires and cool clothes.[15:25:48] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has joined #gamedev[15:26:06] <warweasle> I want to have both melee and ranged weapons. Modern era.[15:26:41] <warweasle> I'm inspired by Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines.[15:26:51] <DarkUranium> Ah, neat.[15:26:57] <DarkUranium> Never played it though.[15:27:24] <warweasle> I highly recommend it, but you have to get the community patch or it's near unplayable.[15:27:39] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has joined #gamedev[15:46:02] *** DarkUranium <DarkUranium!~DarkUrani@stdrand.com> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[15:46:40] *** DarkUranium <DarkUranium!~DarkUrani@stdrand.com> has joined #gamedev[16:01:02] *** zeduckmaster <zeduckmaster!~zeduckmas@85.106.1.181> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[16:10:21] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df0a2-207.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[16:12:17] *** knf <knf!~Hermestri@106.51.240.91> has joined #gamedev[16:12:24] *** cidic <cidic!~cidic@c-73-173-42-76.hsd1.md.comcast.net> has joined #gamedev[16:12:27] <knf> Hi all[16:12:59] <warweasle> knf: Hi[16:14:59] <knf> Slay The spire really made it.[16:21:33] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df0a2-207.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[16:22:18] *** knf <knf!~Hermestri@106.51.240.91> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[16:34:53] *** freefork_afk is now known as freestyledork[16:39:04] *** elfryskai <elfryskai!~elfryskai@62.210.32.136> has joined #gamedev[16:42:37] *** bildramer1 is now known as bildramer[16:45:23] *** mr_lou <mr_lou!~misthalos@077213097222.dynamic.telenor.dk> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[16:57:34] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!jprajzne@nat/redhat/x-smgpayazjyeelxuq> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[17:02:55] *** thomas_25 <thomas_25!~thomas_25@unaffiliated/thomas-25/x-0068438> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[17:07:34] *** shlomif2 <shlomif2!~shlomif@77.126.109.232> has joined #gamedev[17:08:01] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.126.109.232> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[17:09:25] <warweasle> And I'm back waiting...[17:13:44] *** shlomif2 is now known as rindolf[17:37:06] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.4)[17:37:21] *** aly777 <aly777!~kes777@50-242-177-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[17:40:42] *** Beliar <Beliar!~Beliar@2a02:8108:9640:6c42:70c8:7050:6af:fcba> has joined #gamedev[17:43:19] *** Kelzorz <Kelzorz!~Kelzorz@162.104.220.155> has joined #gamedev[17:43:29] *** moongazer <moongazer!~moongazer@unaffiliated/moongazer> has joined #gamedev[17:44:08] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has joined #gamedev[17:44:51] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[17:47:59] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has quit IRC (Quit: reviewing)[17:50:21] *** thomas_25 <thomas_25!~thomas_25@unaffiliated/thomas-25/x-0068438> has joined #gamedev[17:54:35] *** aeth <aeth!~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[17:56:35] *** aeth <aeth!~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn> has joined #gamedev[18:06:12] *** Serpent7776 <Serpent7776!~Serpent77@90-156-31-193.internetia.net.pl> has joined #gamedev[18:10:58] *** moongazer <moongazer!~moongazer@unaffiliated/moongazer> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[18:11:32] <notchris> I might try to learn unity this weekend[18:18:53] <warweasle> notchris: That's fun. I'm an unreal guy myself, but that's just because I don't like C#.[18:19:03] <notchris> What language can you use in unreal?[18:19:46] <DaScoot> it's C++[18:20:06] *** elfryskai <elfryskai!~elfryskai@62.210.32.136> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[18:21:10] <warweasle> also They have their Blueprint language, which I like a lot.[18:21:24] <warweasle> It's sort of a visual language where you connect things with lines.[18:21:48] <warweasle> I do the prototyping with Blueprint and then convert it to C++ if I need the speed.[18:23:28] <notchris> Ah[18:23:31] <DaScoot> I tried helping on a blueprint project once and just felt lost, kept just wanting to get at the code[18:23:42] <notchris> See as a JavaScript developer, I'm sad UnityScript is gone[18:23:51] <notchris> Because it would have made development a lot easier than learning C#[18:23:58] <notchris> Especially since I'm fluent with JS already[18:24:21] <warweasle> It's all just a matter or preference.[18:25:11] <notchris> I wonder if Unreal or Unity have 3rd party extensions to support JS[18:31:48] <warweasle> https://github.com/ncsoft/Unreal.js/[18:32:30] <R2robot> RIP Unrealscript[18:32:58] <notchris> Woah![18:33:01] <notchris> IS it dead R2robot[18:33:20] <R2robot> yep[18:33:35] <R2robot> only used until unreal engine 3.something[18:33:40] <notchris> Damn.[18:33:41] <R2robot> no longer included in 4+[18:33:52] <notchris> And using an old version of Unity or Unreal is just[18:34:02] <notchris> well, not practical i guess[18:34:03] <notchris> right[18:34:29] <R2robot> yeah[18:34:35] <notchris> Sigh[18:34:39] <notchris> I might cry :/[18:37:07] <DaScoot> picking up C# shouldn't be that hard[18:37:25] <notchris> I hope DaScoot[18:37:26] <warweasle> DaScoot: But C++ is much better.[18:38:07] <notchris> DaScoot: Is it better to learn C# and then approach Unity, or to learn C# releated to Unity[18:38:09] <warweasle> Whatever, I need to make a new video of my game progress.[18:38:11] * R2robot will stick with 2d and scripting languages for now :D[18:38:24] <warweasle> So...Logo?[18:38:28] <R2robot> Lua :P[18:38:45] <R2robot> Logo was the shit in middle school :D[18:39:11] <R2robot> warweasle: eta on that video?[18:39:16] <R2robot> it's been a while[18:39:30] <DaScoot> I'd just dive into Unity[18:39:44] <DaScoot> there'll be a lot of stuff you won't find in some generic C# app anyways[18:40:17] <warweasle> I want my next video to show my character changing weapons.[18:42:22] *** knops <knops!~yannick@ip-62-143-84-11.hsi01.unitymediagroup.de> has joined #gamedev[18:47:04] *** ShadowIce <ShadowIce!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has joined #gamedev[18:47:07] *** rmbeer <rmbeer!~rmbeer@unaffiliated/rmbeer> has joined #gamedev[18:47:49] *** MrSponck <MrSponck!~yannick@ip-62-143-84-11.hsi01.unitymediagroup.de> has joined #gamedev[18:47:59] *** knops <knops!~yannick@ip-62-143-84-11.hsi01.unitymediagroup.de> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[18:48:33] *** MrSponck is now known as knops[18:53:05] *** mr_lou <mr_lou!~misthalos@077213097222.dynamic.telenor.dk> has joined #gamedev[18:56:21] <rmbeer> hello...[18:56:45] <rmbeer> i read the topic... and still i no understand...[19:01:52] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[19:02:01] <brainzap> big bro pulse[19:07:29] *** moongazer <moongazer!~moongazer@unaffiliated/moongazer> has joined #gamedev[19:07:36] *** _DB <_DB!6ccefbd9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.108.206.251.217> has quit IRC (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)[19:09:58] *** gareppa <gareppa!~gareppa@unaffiliated/gareppa> has joined #gamedev[19:10:35] *** aindilis <aindilis!~aindilis@172-12-3-117.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[19:11:12] <rmbeer> brainzap, hello...[19:13:08] *** grim001 <grim001!~grim001@ip70-189-228-129.lv.lv.cox.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[19:13:08] *** aindilis <aindilis!~aindilis@172-12-3-117.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net> has joined #gamedev[19:15:45] *** gareppa <gareppa!~gareppa@unaffiliated/gareppa> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[19:17:19] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Quit: My tummy says it's time to sleep Mr. Bubbles.)[19:20:09] *** lordkryss <lordkryss!uid25759@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pbxqpylqtozesyzo> has joined #gamedev[19:26:45] *** knops <knops!~yannick@ip-62-143-84-11.hsi01.unitymediagroup.de> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[19:32:04] *** adamsky <adamsky!~quassel@178235186241.unknown.vectranet.pl> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)[19:45:04] <rmbeer> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........[19:45:07] <notchris> yep[19:45:09] <rmbeer> anyone here?...[19:45:14] <notchris> like 2 hours of work left[19:45:15] <notchris> sigh[19:45:27] <rmbeer> oh...[19:47:46] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[19:49:03] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has joined #gamedev[19:52:08] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[19:53:01] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[19:57:01] *** grim001 <grim001!~grim001@ip70-189-228-129.lv.lv.cox.net> has joined #gamedev[19:58:57] *** warweasle <warweasle!user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe26:d1db> has quit IRC (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1)[20:00:40] *** xen74 <xen74!~xen74@2001:44b8:2e3:9b00:ab:7727:307a:b24d> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[20:04:31] *** CustersRevenge <CustersRevenge!~cppcon@45.231.147.14> has joined #gamedev[20:11:33] * CustersRevenge disassembles R2robot[20:15:55] *** rmbeer <rmbeer!~rmbeer@unaffiliated/rmbeer> has left #gamedev ("never forget this... I'M BETTER THAN YOU!!!...")[20:23:00] <notchris> :O[20:25:38] <rocky1138> It hit me last night that game development in its entirety can be boiled into (probably) a single s-expression.[20:26:10] <rocky1138> Thinking this way has greatly reduced the amount of code and fucking around I do in unity classes, etc, supplanting them for a total embrace of component-based controls[20:26:25] <CustersRevenge> what is an s-expression?[20:27:02] <DarkUranium> CustersRevenge, (foo (bar baz (def abc) ghi))[20:27:25] <DarkUranium> Think Lisp (which introduced the concept)[20:27:31] <DarkUranium> sexpr for short.[20:27:33] <CustersRevenge> hmm so it seems rocky1138 is doing drugs[20:27:45] <DarkUranium> he's on the rocks![20:27:58] <pulse> where does non-deterministic keyboard input come in there[20:28:05] <CustersRevenge> :)[20:28:10] <pulse> or a network packet[20:28:16] <CustersRevenge> MONADS[20:28:22] <DarkUranium> Was about to say.[20:28:25] <CustersRevenge> (wank wank wank)[20:28:26] <rocky1138> actually, surprisingly enough I did think of this while I was baked[20:28:28] <DarkUranium> Also, Lisp is basically a single sexpr.[20:28:33] <DarkUranium> And Lisp is Turing-complete.[20:28:33] <rocky1138> but hey it's legal now :) so yeah, toke on[20:28:34] <CustersRevenge> fap fap fap fap fap[20:28:45] <DarkUranium> Called it --- rocky was stoned![20:28:53] <DarkUranium> brb[20:30:19] <rocky1138> since it became legal in October, I've been smoking from the bong each night. It really helps with game development. I heartily recommend Marijuana lol[20:36:38] <notchris> ^[20:41:28] <Prestige> how does it help?[20:41:44] *** moongazer <moongazer!~moongazer@unaffiliated/moongazer> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)[20:42:11] <notchris> improve focus by 420%[20:42:12] <rocky1138> First half an hour is a washout, feel like doing nothing work-related. But right after that, it's just really easy to get in the zone[20:42:16] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has joined #gamedev[20:42:20] <rocky1138> LOL[20:42:21] <rocky1138> I love that[20:42:26] <rocky1138> I want that as a sign on my desk[20:42:37] <notchris> ©[20:47:44] <Prestige> I think cocaine does that too[20:49:00] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[20:50:09] *** [Relic] <[Relic]!~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:1114:7b87:6d28:61e9> has joined #gamedev[20:51:32] *** CustersRevenge <CustersRevenge!~cppcon@45.231.147.14> has quit IRC (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)[20:54:05] <DarkUranium> back[20:54:19] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[21:02:01] *** ShadowIce <ShadowIce!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[21:03:23] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[21:05:56] *** ShadowIce <ShadowIce!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has joined #gamedev[21:10:45] *** aquiandres <aquiandres!~aquiandre@unaffiliated/aquiandres> has joined #gamedev[21:14:45] <rocky1138> I don't think I'll ever do anything stronger than weed. It just seems so dangerous. Not worth it.[21:14:56] <notchris> what about JESUS[21:15:00] <notchris> loljk[21:15:37] *** adamsky <adamsky!~quassel@178235186241.unknown.vectranet.pl> has joined #gamedev[21:16:33] <[Relic]> wouldn't you have to find him before you smoked him?[21:17:08] <notchris> I didnt come a cross him[21:18:41] <rocky1138> you're on a roll man[21:19:16] <notchris> i usually do breadder but i wont wine about it[21:24:29] *** DaScoot <DaScoot!~Scooter@static-24-153-33-9.cpe.metrocast.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Bye)[21:30:47] <myke> lol[21:30:54] <rocky1138> womp womp[21:33:07] *** CustersRevenge <CustersRevenge!~cppcon@45.231.147.14> has joined #gamedev[21:33:46] <CustersRevenge> :)[21:35:43] *** refs <refs!~refs@dslb-094-222-008-178.094.222.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined #gamedev[21:39:49] <rocky1138> I added destructable bits to my space ships, wanna see?[21:39:51] *** Richard_Cavell <Richard_Cavell!~Richard_C@unaffiliated/richard-cavell/x-0571696> has joined #gamedev[21:39:57] <notchris> yes[21:40:24] <rocky1138> https://gfycat.com/weakblissfulkitty-star-squadron-unity-3d[21:41:25] *** notchris <notchris!~notchris@67.218.88.131> has quit IRC (Quit: notchris)[21:42:37] <CustersRevenge> rocky1138, are these part of your s-expression too?[21:43:25] <CustersRevenge> also the player ship is indestructible :([21:47:55] *** toothlessg <toothlessg!~toothless@rrcs-24-103-153-67.nys.biz.rr.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[21:49:47] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[21:52:55] *** thomas_25 <thomas_25!~thomas_25@unaffiliated/thomas-25/x-0068438> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[21:54:23] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[21:55:04] *** freestyledork is now known as freefork_afk[21:59:25] <rocky1138> Some of it, yeah. I implemented a Spawns class, which has only one method and loops through game objects that should spawn with a chance (0 to 1). Attaching the Spawns class to any game object and tying it to an event saves a ton of custom logic, since I can make any number of things spawn on death or on scan or over time or whatever (loot drops, e[21:59:26] <rocky1138> xplosions are also spawned this way)[21:59:33] <rocky1138> player ship is invulnerable in the clip, yeah[21:59:42] <rocky1138> makes it handy for testing :D[22:01:16] *** ZeroSystem <ZeroSystem!45f81b6b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.248.27.107> has joined #gamedev[22:03:34] <CustersRevenge> I would make the spawning in a separate part[22:03:41] <CustersRevenge> not polluting every object with it[22:03:55] <CustersRevenge> most objects probably spawn the same things or don't spawn anything[22:06:36] *** freefork_afk is now known as freestyledork[22:07:22] <rocky1138> With this method, I don't have to code custom spawn logic on anything. I just drag my Spawns class onto the object, set the event which causes the spawn to fire (death, etc.), and pick what I want to spawn.[22:15:31] <CustersRevenge> and fuck the memory :)[22:16:21] <myke> whatever works[22:21:11] <rocky1138> IDC until it becomes a problem, then I'll profile it and fix the top issue at that time[22:21:14] <rocky1138> Untill then, party on[22:22:04] *** Kelzorz <Kelzorz!~Kelzorz@162.104.220.155> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[22:25:28] *** ShadowIce <ShadowIce!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[22:27:28] <CustersRevenge> yeah! let's pessimize it and hope the profiler gets it!!![22:27:44] <CustersRevenge> we can always tell the users to buy moar ram[22:27:45] <CustersRevenge> ram ram ram[22:28:16] <CustersRevenge> we need to wait more than 30 seconds of loading time to play street fighter 5 now in the PS4[22:28:18] <CustersRevenge> but who cares?[22:32:27] <rocky1138> now you get it![22:35:17] <myke> lol[22:35:25] <myke> rocky is right[22:35:33] <myke> if it's not on the critical path it probably doesn't much matter[22:36:13] <CustersRevenge> especially when you can convince the users that your shit is pure gold[22:36:44] <CustersRevenge> "please! pick the same scenario to save 10 seconds of loading time"[22:38:45] *** knops <knops!~yannick@ip-62-143-84-11.hsi01.unitymediagroup.de> has joined #gamedev[22:39:16] *** Serpent7776 <Serpent7776!~Serpent77@90-156-31-193.internetia.net.pl> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[22:39:21] *** CustersRevenge <CustersRevenge!~cppcon@45.231.147.14> has quit IRC (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)[22:47:16] *** aquiandres <aquiandres!~aquiandre@unaffiliated/aquiandres> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[22:48:41] *** adamsky <adamsky!~quassel@178235186241.unknown.vectranet.pl> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[22:52:30] *** grim002 <grim002!~grim001@ip70-189-228-129.lv.lv.cox.net> has joined #gamedev[22:56:50] *** adamsky <adamsky!~quassel@178235186241.unknown.vectranet.pl> has joined #gamedev[22:57:16] *** grim001 <grim001!~grim001@ip70-189-228-129.lv.lv.cox.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)[23:18:23] *** LunarJetman <LunarJetman!LunarJetma@5ec16e1a.skybroadband.com> has joined #gamedev[23:23:48] *** grim001 <grim001!~grim001@ip70-189-228-129.lv.lv.cox.net> has joined #gamedev[23:24:10] *** grim002 <grim002!~grim001@ip70-189-228-129.lv.lv.cox.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[23:26:37] *** grim002 <grim002!~grim001@ip70-189-228-129.lv.lv.cox.net> has joined #gamedev[23:27:53] *** grim001 <grim001!~grim001@ip70-189-228-129.lv.lv.cox.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[23:28:57] *** Beliar <Beliar!~Beliar@2a02:8108:9640:6c42:70c8:7050:6af:fcba> has quit IRC (Quit: The only real mistake is the one from which we learn nothing)[23:31:09] *** Overnumerousness <Overnumerousness!~Overnumer@2601:283:4400:3541:d06b:b704:38b5:22d7> has joined #gamedev[23:31:11] *** grim002 <grim002!~grim001@ip70-189-228-129.lv.lv.cox.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[23:49:46] *** _DB <_DB!6ccefbd9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.108.206.251.217> has joined #gamedev[23:50:54] *** Tylak <Tylak!~Tylak@074-135-002-092.res.spectrum.com> has joined #gamedev[23:51:55] *** eddof13 <eddof13!~eddof13@201-156-176-12.reservada.static.axtel.net> has joined #gamedev[23:54:48] *** Kelzorz <Kelzorz!~Kelzorz@162.104.220.155> has joined #gamedev[23:57:11] *** Richard_Cavell_ <Richard_Cavell_!~Richard_C@unaffiliated/richard-cavell/x-0571696> has joined #gamedev[23:57:27] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidpizz@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has joined #gamedev[23:57:58] *** Richard_Cavell <Richard_Cavell!~Richard_C@unaffiliated/richard-cavell/x-0571696> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[23:59:46] *** code_zombie <code_zombie!~code_zomb@2605:a601:aa1:da00:3cfd:c943:f338:c765> has joined #gamedev