January 22, 2019 
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January 22, 2019 [00:00:00] <toxic_af> the very idea of working out the types of your arguments at runtime is backward.[00:00:05] <brimonk> op precidence is just wrapping everything with parenthesis.[00:00:25] <aeth> brimonk: Well, C is timelessly 1980 except for 1980s C, which is timelessly 1970. :-p[00:00:56] <aeth> The result is that in C you basically write for yourself what you'd get for free in most other languages, sort of like JavaScript except your NIH is going to be much, much, much faster.[00:01:01] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.124.99.198> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:01:30] <aeth> (Fast but probably not robust.)[00:03:16] <aeth> brimonk: parentheses everywhere (except for the top level) and spaces between all operators is the only valid style in any language imo. (x + y) * z[00:03:57] <aeth> These days everyone's vaguely familiar with 10 languages, don't count on the reader being able to know deep specific knowledge of a given language's precedence, which might differ from the other 3 languages they're using within the same project[00:04:40] <aeth> Well, (x + y) * z is a bad example because it's required. (x * y) + z is equally necessary imo.[00:04:45] <toxic_af> I am not vaguely familiar with 10 languages[00:05:13] <toxic_af> I don't wish to be a jack of all trades, master of none[00:06:03] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.124.99.198> has joined #gamedev[00:06:24] <pulse> nah, x * y + z isn't necessary[00:06:33] <pulse> too basic[00:06:59] <pulse> (a & b) || c might be a better example[00:07:04] <aeth> pulse: The thing is, it's never just x * y + z. In reality it's like 10-15[00:07:33] <aeth> Unnecessary parentheses just help make the thing easier to parse and helps to prevent accidents.[00:07:57] *** macaronus <macaronus!macaronus@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/macaronus> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:08:22] <pulse> idk, i used to overuse parenthesis, then i kinda grew out of that habit[00:08:25] <aeth> In "x*y+z" vs. "(x * y) + z" I can tell you that I can read the second much easier, and it takes about the same amount of time to type because the spacebar is easy to press.[00:08:54] <pulse> i used to always do (a > b) ? x : y[00:08:59] <pulse> no i usually do a > b ? x : y[00:09:07] <pulse> also return (a > b), now i just do return a > b[00:09:15] <pulse> but i still overuse parenthesis more than most people, i think[00:09:24] <pulse> depends on the case[00:09:42] <pulse> idk, i think it's more the matter of style[00:09:58] <pulse> than readability[00:10:13] <toxic_af> no[00:10:25] <toxic_af> it is about readability[00:10:30] <pulse> for confusing math expressions i'm on the side of overusing parenthesis though[00:10:40] <toxic_af> and not having to check precedence table[00:10:53] <aeth> If you're used to the parentheses then not having the parentheses looks out of place and since the parentheses are necessary in some circumstances using them in all circumstances keeps things uniform imo.[00:11:05] <pulse> toxic_af, for some cases yeah. but i find "return (a > b) ? x : y" just as readable as "return a > b ? x : y"[00:11:29] <toxic_af> "and not having to check precedence table"[00:11:47] <pulse> aeth, yeah, for most cases i think it's just a matter of getting used to one or the other. that's why i think it's a matter of style[00:11:57] <pulse> but there's plenty of cases where you'd want to explicitly state the precedence[00:12:00] <pulse> for readability's sake[00:12:05] <pulse> anything involving computation, really[00:12:14] <pulse> s/computation/math expressions/[00:12:18] <aeth> pulse: But it's not a matter of style because the parentheses are necessary in some circumstances. So it becomes an issue of whether you want things to look uniform or if you want to save < .5 seconds of typing in some circumstances imo.[00:12:26] <toxic_af> so you are disagreeing with yourself; great.[00:13:26] <aeth> Imo the only time when you shouldn't have parentheses (other than the top level) are when the operators are the same. So (a * b * c) + d and not ((a * b) * c) + d[00:15:18] <aeth> Of course, that's assuming the operator is left-to-right like * is. If it's right-to-left it might be clearer to have unnecessary same-level parentheses.[00:17:22] <pulse> toxic_af, nah. just saying it's on a case-by-case basis for me[00:18:04] <pulse> my programming style seemed to have evolved from overly-careful to somewhat-careful[00:18:05] <aeth> pulse: Imo, the point of having a style is to avoid having to make case-by-case decisions on how to format code. Remove thinking about style even if the style isn't perfect, and focus on the semantics.[00:18:28] <pulse> well, it's not like i overthink it[00:19:15] <aeth> I'd say the place where people really overthink it isn't a traditional programming language, it's Excel.[00:19:28] <pulse> and rules can always be broken[00:20:02] <aeth> The main rule to be broken is that annoying line length rule :-p[00:20:07] <pulse> true[00:20:19] <pulse> 80 char limit and 8-wide tabs. gg[00:20:22] <aeth> I see line length as a soft cap. Aim for it, but if you're 1-2 characters over and it's clearer that way, leave it as-is.[00:20:37] <aeth> 80 isn't enough for the modern style of longer variable names[00:20:45] <pulse> 90-110 for me[00:20:47] <aeth> I tend to go for between 90 and 100, depending on various factors.[00:20:52] <pulse> same[00:21:00] <pulse> i hate breaking ifs into multiple lines too[00:21:07] <pulse> i'd rather go up to 120 sometimes[00:21:11] <pulse> anything more is a stretch though[00:21:35] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[00:21:49] <aeth> 92 is ideal for my current font + monitor + editor setup because then I can have 4 equally-sized columns of code with no wrapping. I'm not afraid to go above 90 in some cases, though.[00:22:40] <aeth> You always have to be careful about the "today's monitors are wide enough" arguments because wider monitors just means more columns.[00:23:17] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has joined #gamedev[00:23:23] <aeth> I think in practice almost every line's under the 92 that's comfortable for me, even with 100 as the actual limit.[00:23:51] <pulse> you can always get an ultra-wide monitor :P[00:24:10] <aeth> the problem is that ultra-wide monitors only serve to make us stray further from perfection[00:24:34] <aeth> 16:10 screens were great because they're a decent Golden Ratio approximation. The 16:9 we have today is a bit too short.[00:24:41] <pulse> i want to get a 486, an old CRT, and program on 640x480[00:24:47] <pulse> or even 320x240[00:24:55] <pulse> sounds comfy[00:25:08] <toxic_af> Mode X. I made a Mode X lib a long time ago[00:25:28] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.124.99.198> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[00:25:47] <aeth> pulse: 4:3 aspect ratio made more sense when screens were smaller imo. 16:9 covers most of your view, especially dual 16:9 monitors.[00:26:02] <pulse> it straining on the eyes[00:26:03] <aeth> A really large 4:3 will have a lot of high or low things that aren't even in your peripheral vision[00:26:17] <pulse> yeah, i guess[00:26:18] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@c-98-252-1-155.hsd1.de.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[00:26:20] <aeth> If I can't see it it might as well not be there imo[00:26:22] <pulse> i have dual 16:10[00:26:27] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[00:26:28] <pulse> it's somewhat too much[00:26:32] <aeth> 16:10? I'm jealous[00:26:36] <pulse> hah[00:26:46] <pulse> it's comfy for most stuff[00:26:57] <pulse> but it does strain eyes[00:27:01] <toxic_af> the eyes can only see 60 FPS[00:27:11] <pulse> sometimes i go to my other PC which has a 4:3 LCD just to relax my eyes[00:27:12] <aeth> with 16:10 you get a bit of a letterbox for fullscreen videos (which could be a good thing because it makes it look cinematic) but literally everything else is better imo[00:27:45] <pulse> yeah but the benefit is that on YT the little icon in bottom right will be in that bottom black border[00:28:02] <pulse> not a huge benefit but, you know, OCD[00:31:42] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has joined #gamedev[00:31:55] <aeth> pulse: clearly some googlers do use 16:10[00:33:22] <aeth> pulse: As much as people rightfully hate YouTube for its content policies, YouTube seems to be the only site on the Internet that does video right. Good keyboard shortcuts, the ability to speed up the video, etc. Any video site that hides the built-in browser menu to speed up or slow down videos without reimplementing it (YouTube reimplements it *and* allows you to get to the menu) is evil.[00:34:12] <aeth> I mean, that's the only reason I want to be world dictator (vote for me in 2020), just so I can give 3/4 food rations to people who do mildly annoying things on the Internet like hiding the ability to speed up videos.[00:34:21] <pulse> yeah but they adopted most of those features from porn sites lol[00:34:35] <pulse> porn sites had many advanced features first[00:34:37] <pulse> true story[00:34:50] <pulse> after all they have the most demanding visitors[00:34:53] *** Twipply <Twipply!~Twipply@unaffiliated/twipply> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[00:35:01] <aeth> pulse: Okay, YouTube seems to be the only non-porn site on the Internet that does video right, then. I don't go to porn video sites. Mainstream porn is so... strange.[00:39:03] <aeth> Everything has to have a plot for some reason. The plot is awful. The popular plot right now is apparently incest. What they actually choose to film is terrible. And everything about it seems too fake so the end result is comedy. Comedy is not my fettish.[00:42:53] <solidfox> hey my area has attractive females[00:42:58] <solidfox> could i start a porn site business[00:43:39] <solidfox> ?[00:43:55] <solidfox> i could even hire myself as the sole developer in order to reduce development costs[00:44:48] <aeth> solidfox: That's what I thought but the attractive females per capita are probably lower in your area than in some areas so you'd have to relocate. Based on the ads, the highest per capita in the United States is probably Alaska or Wyoming.[00:45:56] <solidfox> aeth: ah, also there are few guys here to do the other role.. mostly old guys t-t[00:46:31] <solidfox> maybe its not a good idea[00:46:48] <aeth> solidfox: Combine it with your love for gamedev and make it in VR.[00:47:17] <solidfox> woa[00:47:59] <aeth> 'woa'? nice compromise between the correct 'woah' and the objectively-evil 'whoa' that can annoy both camps![00:48:23] <solidfox> never seen whoa[00:49:45] <aeth> solidfox: It's used by the "I'm more correct than you" snobs on the Internet. They apparently call "woah" a misspelling of "whoa" on Wiktionary even though "whoa" is used by less (heh) people. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/woah#English[00:50:21] <aeth> The thing about language is that the popular eventually becomes the correct. That's why you don't see "whom" anymore, except by the same sort of person who writes "whoa".[00:50:48] <DarkUranium> I ... I see "whom" often[00:51:04] <solidfox> aeth: amigojapan is always try to say that hentai doesnt mean ero anime, it means "pervert" and using it the former way is objectively incorrect[00:51:31] <solidfox> i argued it is a loan word[00:51:37] <solidfox> that changed meaning slightly[00:51:38] <o][o> wat[00:51:38] <aeth> DarkUranium: well, I use "whom" when I'm writing formally, same with "one" as in "one might prefer this", but even for formal writing it's probably rare now[00:51:46] <o][o> are we talking about hentai now?[00:51:59] <o][o> it seems a suitable topic for gamedev[00:52:12] <solidfox> o][o: well we were talking about porn, and now we're talking about things people get pedantic over[00:52:15] <aeth> o][o: 90% of Steam games seem to be hentai now[00:52:24] <o][o> any good promotions?[00:52:47] <o][o> gimme free codes[00:52:54] <solidfox> i wanna get a hentai game but my friends will see it and make fun of me[00:53:02] <solidfox> just for the lulz[00:53:21] *** ZeroSystem <ZeroSystem!45f81b6b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.248.27.107> has joined #gamedev[00:54:33] <solidfox> hentai games will probably become like zombie games eventually[00:55:22] <solidfox> nah[00:55:24] <solidfox> nvm lol[00:56:30] <DarkUranium> aeth, eh[00:57:05] <DarkUranium> aeth, EA's been trying to fuck everyone in the ass since 2003. Beat that, Steam![00:59:56] <aeth> solidfox: google 'zombie hentai game' and you'll probably find 200[00:59:56] *** macza <macza!~macza@67.231.29.194> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[01:00:19] <solidfox> aeth: lol[01:00:20] *** macza <macza!~macza@67.231.29.194> has joined #gamedev[01:00:26] <solidfox> im good[01:03:33] *** [Brain] <[Brain]!~brain@cpc141592-mfl22-2-0-cust912.13-1.cable.virginm.net> has joined #gamedev[01:11:24] <o][o> :>[01:14:20] *** cheakoirccloud <cheakoirccloud!uid293319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aaqorokowwensajb> has joined #gamedev[01:14:45] <babuloseo> solidfox: if your friends are making fun of you[01:14:49] <babuloseo> they are not really your friends then[01:15:23] <o][o> oh ho ho ho[01:15:27] <aeth> Well, I mean, why would you use your real identity (or an identity that you use for SFW stuff) if you wanted to make a NSFW game?[01:15:29] <o][o> that is not true[01:15:59] <babuloseo> aeth: because some people are not afraid[01:16:09] <babuloseo> about what others think of them[01:19:25] <aeth> babuloseo: you must not be American then[01:20:54] *** veridiam <veridiam!~veridiam@S010674d02b5e3c80.vs.shawcable.net> has joined #gamedev[01:20:57] <babuloseo> aeth: what[01:21:07] <babuloseo> americans are people that are one of the least afraid people in the world[01:21:18] <babuloseo> they give no shits[01:21:23] <babuloseo> hence them trying to build a border[01:21:26] <babuloseo> or walls[01:24:04] <aeth> lol[01:24:04] *** macza <macza!~macza@67.231.29.194> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[01:25:40] <aeth> babuloseo: "building the wall" is a stupid idea on many levels, but that's pretty irrelevant here. What's relevant is that Americans are pretty puritan and socially conservative, so certain professions are, while legal, taboo.[01:26:23] <babuloseo> what I am saying is that[01:26:26] <babuloseo> Americans are not afraid[01:26:33] <babuloseo> for example take Martin Luther King Jr[01:26:37] <babuloseo> you think he gave a shit[01:26:41] <aeth> Of course, something being legal but taboo just makes that job more lucrative because plenty of capable people will avoid those jobs.[01:26:57] <babuloseo> America is where great people are born, fearless ones[01:27:02] <babuloseo> vs other countries in the world[01:27:26] <babuloseo> you don't get censored as heavily in America versus other parts of the world[01:27:56] <babuloseo> thats why Americans typically lead all the privacy and freedom related initiatives[01:28:00] <aeth> babuloseo: Or... America is where the global film and television industry is largely based so of course famous Americans get more and better dramatic treatment than famous people from other countries.[01:28:07] <aeth> Game industry, too.[01:28:17] <aeth> There aren't really many biographical games, though[01:28:32] <babuloseo> rofl American games are not the only ones in the world[01:28:40] <babuloseo> same goes for their television and film industry[01:28:47] <babuloseo> that shit is slowly declining, including their games[01:28:52] <aeth> Well, yes, for games you also have Japan and for films you also have India.[01:28:55] <babuloseo> but Americans are still great[01:29:25] <babuloseo> I think they are one of the bravest people in the world[01:29:32] <babuloseo> based on history and everything else[01:29:43] <babuloseo> i.e. the entire tech industry is situated in USA[01:30:55] <aeth> Bravest in history? Take World War 2 for example. The US had the safety of two oceans and a dominant navy (as well as being allied with the other dominant navy of the time). The danger was pretty low compared to the other allies there.[01:32:16] <aeth> Bravest in history probably goes to the ancient Spartans.[01:34:35] <aeth> Well, at least as far as brave *and* survived goes.[01:35:34] *** toxic_af <toxic_af!LunarJetma@92.40.86.137.threembb.co.uk> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[01:37:50] <aeth> The last war the US fought where they had a realistic chance of losing (excluding the Civil War) was the War of 1812.[01:43:12] *** pavonia <pavonia!~user@unaffiliated/siracusa> has joined #gamedev[01:45:18] <aeth> babuloseo: On your earlier point of free speech though, I definitely agree with you there. Probably the least restrictive place for speech, at least these days with the Internet. (In the old days, publishers could de facto censor something because there weren't too many of them.)[01:45:53] <babuloseo> I am from Canada btw[01:45:58] <babuloseo> its a censorfest here[01:46:06] <babuloseo> its starting to affect the games we make ROFL[01:46:49] <NiniGeo2> I was not aware that Canada censored games significantly differently than the U.S. did :o[01:47:36] <aeth> Australia and Germany generally come up as the censorship examples for games[01:48:00] <NiniGeo2> Yeah that's what I would've thought more than Canada :o[01:48:25] <NiniGeo2> Also China has some big restrictions on what you can put in your videogame, too~[01:48:31] <aeth> babuloseo: oh and Canada is the reason the War of 1812 is so close, so it's kind of funny I brought that up[01:49:20] <aeth> Apparently Canadian and British historians claim victory and American historians call it a stalemate.[01:50:58] *** carldd <carldd!~carld@2001:2002:5ae0:3171:dc16:2108:930b:bbd1> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[01:58:37] <aeth> babuloseo: What kind of games are people trying but failing to make because of Canadian laws?[01:58:44] <aeth> I think most of us here haven't heard about it[01:58:51] <babuloseo> Masseffect game[01:58:52] <babuloseo> I think[01:58:56] <babuloseo> Telltale?[01:58:57] <babuloseo> et[01:58:58] <babuloseo> etc[02:09:28] <LastTalon> aeth, also, the canadians are the only one who see it as a war involving canada.[02:10:00] <LastTalon> Quite the interesting conflict.[02:17:02] <LastTalon> The americans view it as a victory because we were primarily concerned with fighting the british. The canadians view it as a victory because they successfully defended their land (although with british help), but the americans don't care about this because they aren't super concerned with the failure to invade canada. And the british don't care because they're more interested in napoleon.[02:18:06] <veridiam> living in canada i can tell you people sure are proud they burned down the whitehouse[02:18:20] <LastTalon> I know.[02:18:29] <LastTalon> Interesting how different sides can view things differently.[02:19:37] <LastTalon> Cuz its notable that it was a british raid that burned the white house.[02:19:45] <LastTalon> But w/e :P[02:20:05] <LastTalon> I've also heard canadians call it the "Canadian-American War"[02:20:05] <veridiam> the british never get any credit for the things they do tho[02:20:34] *** freestyledork is now known as freefork_afk[02:20:56] <LastTalon> Its a common theme in my experience that canadians ignore the british involvement in the war.[02:21:12] <LastTalon> The british don't even consider it a war. Lol[02:21:50] <veridiam> is someone working on a war of 1812 game? how did this come up[02:22:05] <LastTalon> Aeth brought it up[02:22:43] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[02:23:01] <aeth> LastTalon: well the British view it as a victory because the US didn't conquer Canada and why would you declare a war about something other than expanding your empire? :-p[02:23:01] <veridiam> you'd probably do very well with a game trailer depicting a burning white house right about now[02:23:04] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@c-98-252-1-155.hsd1.de.comcast.net> has joined #gamedev[02:23:23] <LastTalon> The US only cares about the war because they repelled the british.[02:23:35] <LastTalon> Invading canada was sort of the US's MO at the time.[02:24:14] <aeth> veridiam: Canadian-American War II: The Game?[02:24:26] <aeth> Of course, it'd be quite expensive to make because the game would have to be in both English and French[02:24:34] <LastTalon> The british came to fight with canada and then the US cared about that because it was independence 2.0[02:24:47] <veridiam> aeth: that's it, ship it[02:24:57] <LastTalon> So repelling the british was a big deal to the americans[02:25:16] <LastTalon> Its cuz everyone involved cared about different things.[02:25:36] <LastTalon> Of course canada cares about defending her land.[02:26:47] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[02:27:27] <LastTalon> Overall historians view it as a stalemate, the original causes for war had vanished.[02:28:00] <aeth> If Canada wins the sequel war, then Maine goes to Newfoundland, Vermont goes to Quebec, Michigan goes to Ontario, and Washington goes to British Columbia.[02:28:19] <aeth> If the US wins, then most of Canada becomes East Alaska.[02:28:23] <LastTalon> Technically because of the way we wrote history all sides were winners.[02:28:29] <LastTalon> Especially both young countries.[02:28:43] <LastTalon> Its a real boost to think you got out well in that war.[02:28:50] <pulse> all i want is a game set in atlantis[02:30:33] <pulse> hmm intensifies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg5HBZuozz0[02:30:43] *** refs <refs!~refs@dslb-178-005-230-000.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has quit IRC (Quit: refs)[02:36:13] <LastTalon> The thing to understand is that for the US the primary concern was never really canada in the sense that they were definitely mainly concerned with fighting the british. The US declared war on the UK and her territories and allies of which canada happened to be the nearest. The US probably wanted to expand into canada but that wasn't really the main (and definitely not the only) reason for declaring war.[02:36:57] <LastTalon> This is also the reason the british view it as a part of the napoleonic wars.[02:37:12] <LastTalon> The US was upset at british blockades of france among other things.[02:39:03] <LastTalon> So the UK sort of views it as a minor thing they had to deal with in the napoleonic wars.[02:48:30] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[02:52:24] *** pulse <pulse!~pulse@unaffiliated/pulse> has quit IRC (Quit: i like big sprites and i cannot lie, these other games cant deny)[02:57:09] *** aindilis <aindilis!~aindilis@172-12-3-117.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[02:57:11] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@c-98-252-1-155.hsd1.de.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[02:59:28] *** aindilis <aindilis!~aindilis@172-12-3-117.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net> has joined #gamedev[03:04:54] <solidfox> remember that day we were all talking about the fourth dimension?[03:05:13] <solidfox> well i watched a few youtube videos about it too, and now my suggestions keep showing even more.[03:05:50] <solidfox> it seems like a such a specific thing to suggest videos for, i was interested but i dont wanna watch videos about the 4th dimension every day![03:08:18] *** dirtyroshi <dirtyroshi!~dirtyrosh@unaffiliated/dirtyroshi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[03:21:56] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)[03:23:45] <aeth> at some point you have to move onto the 5th[03:29:06] *** toxic_af <toxic_af!toxic_af@188.31.11.156.threembb.co.uk> has joined #gamedev[03:39:44] *** lurchman <lurchman!~lurchman@cpe-74-70-68-50.nycap.res.rr.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[03:44:02] *** toxic_af <toxic_af!toxic_af@188.31.11.156.threembb.co.uk> has left #gamedev[04:06:03] *** veridiam <veridiam!~veridiam@S010674d02b5e3c80.vs.shawcable.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Lost terminal)[04:09:24] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[04:12:36] *** cheakoirccloud <cheakoirccloud!uid293319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aaqorokowwensajb> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[04:19:44] *** RoadKillGrill <RoadKillGrill!~RoadKillG@cpe-24-166-114-198.neo.res.rr.com> has joined #gamedev[04:20:40] *** carldd <carldd!~carld@2001:2002:5ae0:3171:dc16:2108:930b:bbd1> has joined #gamedev[04:22:56] *** R2robot <R2robot!~R2robot@unaffiliated/r2ro> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)[04:25:11] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has joined #gamedev[04:52:51] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@c-98-252-1-155.hsd1.de.comcast.net> has joined #gamedev[05:01:10] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@c-98-252-1-155.hsd1.de.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)[05:15:20] *** mobile_c <mobile_c!~mobile_c@2405:7f00:8a15:5300:6a25:6b12:99b9:b9dc> has joined #gamedev[05:17:23] *** mobile_c <mobile_c!~mobile_c@2405:7f00:8a15:5300:6a25:6b12:99b9:b9dc> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[05:18:53] *** cheakoirccloud <cheakoirccloud!uid293319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bnelmbuykwyzacjd> has joined #gamedev[05:28:55] *** mobile_c <mobile_c!~mobile_c@2405:7f00:8a15:5300:6a25:6b12:99b9:b9dc> has joined #gamedev[05:31:23] *** mobile_c_ <mobile_c_!~mobile_c@2405:7f00:8a15:5300:2b88:5dc2:a4fe:7fb8> has joined #gamedev[05:34:14] *** code_zombie <code_zombie!~code_zomb@2605:a601:aa1:da00:15a2:137e:7122:29c2> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[05:35:39] *** mobile_c_ <mobile_c_!~mobile_c@2405:7f00:8a15:5300:2b88:5dc2:a4fe:7fb8> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[05:36:12] *** mobile_c <mobile_c!~mobile_c@2405:7f00:8a15:5300:6a25:6b12:99b9:b9dc> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[05:41:02] *** mobile_c_ <mobile_c_!~mobile_c@2405:7f00:8a15:5300:2b88:5dc2:a4fe:7fb8> has joined #gamedev[05:43:14] *** mobile_c_ is now known as mobile_c[05:59:13] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[06:03:46] *** mr_lou <mr_lou!~misthalos@085083077157.dynamic.telenor.dk> has joined #gamedev[06:12:39] *** R2robot <R2robot!~R2robot@unaffiliated/r2ro> has joined #gamedev[06:12:57] *** mobile_c <mobile_c!~mobile_c@2405:7f00:8a15:5300:2b88:5dc2:a4fe:7fb8> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[06:14:10] *** Beliar <Beliar!~Beliar@2a02:8108:9640:6c42:a9b3:d7f2:b80:cd04> has joined #gamedev[06:15:42] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[06:18:59] *** RoadKillGrill <RoadKillGrill!~RoadKillG@cpe-24-166-114-198.neo.res.rr.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[06:19:42] *** [Relic] <[Relic]!~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:6df3:e084:356:45fa> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[06:24:53] *** macza <macza!~macza@d75-157-125-9.bchsia.telus.net> has joined #gamedev[06:25:55] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[06:29:36] *** macza <macza!~macza@d75-157-125-9.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)[06:31:47] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has joined #gamedev[06:53:08] *** R2robot <R2robot!~R2robot@unaffiliated/r2ro> has quit IRC (Quit: Pull the lever, Kronk. 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markand <markand!~markand@unaffiliated/markand> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[14:06:19] *** markand <markand!~markand@unaffiliated/markand> has joined #gamedev[14:07:05] *** Kingsqueee <Kingsqueee!~kingsquee@S01069050ca3c92d3.va.shawcable.net> has quit IRC (Quit: しょうがない)[14:08:48] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@c-98-252-1-155.hsd1.de.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[14:08:53] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Quit: My tummy says it's time to sleep Mr. Bubbles.)[14:17:43] *** DaScoot <DaScoot!~Scooter@static-24-153-33-9.cpe.metrocast.net> has joined #gamedev[14:29:16] *** nerfur <nerfur!~nerfur@broadband-95-84-184-13.ip.moscow.rt.ru> has joined #gamedev[14:29:56] <nerfur> Hello, anybody using pure C ?[14:31:10] <DarkUranium> Yes.[14:31:39] *** refsw` <refsw`!~refsw@80.150.130.51> has joined #gamedev[14:34:13] *** refsw <refsw!~refsw@80.150.130.51> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[14:38:44] *** refsw3 <refsw3!~refsw@80.150.130.51> has joined #gamedev[14:38:47] <pulse> i use impure C[14:38:47] *** refsw` <refsw`!~refsw@80.150.130.51> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[14:40:06] <DarkUranium> pulse, heretic![14:40:11] * DarkUranium purges pulse[14:40:18] <DaScoot> C that's been around a while, done some things[14:40:21] <DaScoot> things it can't forget[14:40:35] * pulse invalidates DarkUranium's pointers[14:41:15] <DarkUranium> pulse, how dare yZ_$2 u[14:41:22] <pulse> :d[14:45:37] <R2robot> nerfur: yes, with raylib https://www.raylib.com/[14:46:38] <DarkUranium> R2robot, that looks interesting.[14:46:48] <R2robot> it really is[14:46:53] <DarkUranium> R2robot, so it's a base library for making games, like SDL or Allegro?[14:46:59] <DarkUranium> (but higher-level than SDL)[14:47:04] <R2robot> yeah[14:47:04] <pulse> that website is funny tho[14:47:09] <pulse> if you move the mouse between two menu items[14:47:14] <pulse> they go into a frenzy[14:47:35] <pulse> like they're competing for dominance[14:47:44] <R2robot> pulse: not for me[14:47:46] <DarkUranium> lol[14:47:48] <DarkUranium> for me too[14:47:50] * pulse shrugs[14:48:00] <DarkUranium> R2robot, do you use C for the games themselves, too?[14:48:04] <pulse> lib looks cool tho[14:48:16] <R2robot> pulse: oh, the last 2 do it lol[14:48:27] <pulse> R2robot, they both have to be non-active :p[14:48:40] <markand> C is too weakly typed[14:48:51] <pulse> i like weak types[14:48:54] <DarkUranium> yer mum is too weakly typed![14:48:54] <pulse> i eat them for breakfast[14:48:56] <R2robot> DarkUranium: the first couple of games I wrote (but didn't release) were in C. I'm edging my way back to that..[14:49:03] <nerfur> R2robot: thanks, never heard, was trying SDL2[14:49:32] <DarkUranium> R2robot, let's join up! (I've legit been meaning to get back to making them C ... though possibly with a preprocessor for a certain feature I have in mind)[14:50:11] <nerfur> DarkUranium: oh, I thought I heard your nick already... yup... dnd )[14:50:21] <R2robot> DarkUranium: maybe.. at some point. still 'edging' my way back to it :D Currently using lua/corona, and next project is probably defold/lua[14:50:28] <R2robot> but i'll get there :D[14:50:30] <DarkUranium> nerfur, :D[14:50:57] <DarkUranium> R2robot, nice, how are they? I've been looking for a good 2D engine.[14:51:06] <markand> I use SDL[14:51:15] <DarkUranium> markand, SDL2, I presume?[14:51:20] <markand> yep[14:51:23] <DarkUranium> Same.[14:51:24] <markand> even in C++[14:51:27] <DarkUranium> Ditto.[14:51:39] <DarkUranium> Tried SFML, didn't erally like it.[14:51:48] <markand> it's a bit hard to contribute with Ryan but whatever[14:51:52] <markand> it's still better than SFML[14:51:56] <R2robot> DarkUranium: I *love* corona. so simple. Defold is a bit more complicated, but still easy.. fancy UI editor is nice.[14:52:19] <DarkUranium> R2robot, I made my own at some point. I'm hoping to revive it once my scripting lang is out.[14:52:27] <R2robot> nice[14:52:41] <R2robot> DarkUranium: what is your scripting lang?[14:52:56] <DarkUranium> Not released yet. Called Coyote (after Wile E. Coyote). Meant primarily (albeit not exclusively) for gamedev.[14:53:07] <R2robot> neat[14:53:12] <DarkUranium> Working on it in C.[14:53:28] <R2robot> is it dangerous enough to let you run off a cliff? :D[14:53:36] <DarkUranium> Eh, halfway :P[14:53:42] <R2robot> lol[14:53:44] <DarkUranium> it is a sandboxed language[14:53:48] * markand is working on a MMORPG engine in 2D in C++17/Duktape[14:53:51] <DarkUranium> But OTOH, it doesn't try to do too much handholding.,[14:54:22] <DarkUranium> R2robot, it has builtin vector types and such, because I got sick and tired of every library inventing their own :P[14:54:34] <DarkUranium> might as well toss 'em into the lang.[14:54:40] <R2robot> heh[14:54:45] <DarkUranium> (plus I'll be able to take advantage of SIMD in the long run)[14:55:17] <R2robot> estimated release date?[14:55:19] <DarkUranium> R2robot, statically-typed, though. Unlike most scripting langs.[14:55:22] <DarkUranium> No clue, TBH. Sorry.[14:55:28] <DarkUranium> Sooner if you help ;)[14:55:35] <R2robot> hhaha[14:56:18] <markand> static languages are the best[14:57:24] <rts-sander> I'm reading up on game networking, is it really true that in most FPS games you're seeing positions of other players in the past?[14:57:34] <DarkUranium> markand, the whole project was born out of me trying to find a statically-typed embeddable language.[14:57:53] <rts-sander> I thought that the client would estimate / interpolate positions, not just play back what happened 100 ms ago[15:00:04] <R2robot> quakeworld used to do some weird interpolation/prediction[15:00:10] <R2robot> but that was 20+ years ago :D[15:00:27] <R2robot> and most people were on dial-up[15:02:32] <rts-sander> yeah I thought game networking was hard because they have to come up with some crazy accurate interpolation algorithm[15:03:24] <markand> popen("g++") and execve() ? :P[15:03:35] <DarkUranium> markand, lol[15:04:07] <DarkUranium> rts-sander, I saw an article where they made a VR multiplayer physics environment. They just ramped up the updates to 60Hz and disabled interpolation (because it was no longer necessary)[15:04:42] <DarkUranium> BTW, if you *do* end up interpolating, apparently, a good solution to avoid oscillation is to interpolate the visual model, but snap the physical model into position.[15:04:59] <DarkUranium> (so the visual model is basically on a spring on top of the physical one ... which doesn't interpolate at all)[15:05:20] <DarkUranium> (or, if it does interpolate, it snaps the moment you get new data, even if it means jumping)[15:05:56] <DarkUranium> Makes sense, in a way ... you know where it was at that point (error=0), might as well snap to it, instead of slowly approaching no error. OTOH, you have to avoid visual artefacts, hence not snapping that.[15:06:40] <rts-sander> yes a low enough timestep means you can accurately interpolate what happens in between[15:06:59] <DarkUranium> rts-sander, at 60Hz, they didn't interpoalte at all.[15:07:00] <rts-sander> thing is in fast paced networked games they don't do interpolation at all: they just replay what happened[15:07:02] <DarkUranium> nerfur, anyhow, you a C dev?[15:07:23] <rts-sander> DarkUranium, oh yeah because that's equal to the framerate :) no frames in between of course[15:07:24] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has joined #gamedev[15:07:39] <DarkUranium> not necessarily equal (120Hz monitors and such), but it was CloseEnough(TM)[15:08:59] <rts-sander> that might work for a local setup, but I don't know about internet / wifi[15:09:06] <rts-sander> also server CPU costs[15:13:19] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[15:14:32] <DarkUranium> rts-sander, the test they had ended up going up to 500kb/s, with quite a lot of work.[15:14:36] <DarkUranium> a lot of objects*[15:14:38] <DarkUranium> I found the article.[15:14:41] <DarkUranium> https://gafferongames.com/post/snapshot_compression/[15:14:55] <DarkUranium> don't recall if this is the one where they disabled interpolation, I might be mixing it up with something.[15:17:33] <DarkUranium> (see last video)[15:21:08] <rts-sander> DarkUranium, interesting article thanks[15:21:52] <nerfur> DarkUranium: nope, Im' linux admin and wannabe gamedev[15:22:47] <rts-sander> 16 bytes for orientation seems a bit much though, but idk[15:22:53] <DarkUranium> nerfur, freebsd admin and actual gamedev :D[15:22:54] <DarkUranium> (but not C)[15:23:05] <DarkUranium> (well, not professionally, at any rate)[15:23:59] <DarkUranium> rts-sander, well, he ended up using 29 bits.[15:24:00] <nerfur> DarkUranium: OpenBSD lover is here ) I have 2 (not really) games on play store :-D Thanks to Game Maker Studio ;-)[15:24:03] <DarkUranium> 128 bits aws the initial one.[15:24:06] <rts-sander> aah[15:24:11] *** R2robot <R2robot!~R2robot@unaffiliated/r2ro> has quit IRC (Quit: Pull the lever, Kronk. Wrong leverrrrrrr!)[15:24:22] <DarkUranium> rts-sander, you know, naive quaternion: 4x float.[15:25:37] <DarkUranium> lol, that quit message[15:28:29] *** R2robot <R2robot!~R2robot@unaffiliated/r2ro> has joined #gamedev[15:29:05] <solidfox> woah blender got a new photorealistic shader https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H5W6C_Mbck[15:31:17] <DarkUranium> It's had that for quite a while now :P[15:31:43] <DarkUranium> Have you seen Eevee?[15:32:40] <R2robot> https://www.pocketgamer.biz/interview/69314/voodoo-development-magic-how-h8-games-launched-helix-jump/[15:32:41] <solidfox> nope[15:33:00] <R2robot> weird that such a casual game has a publisher[15:33:12] <DarkUranium> solidfox, it's the new real-time engine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxrwx7nmS5A[15:33:20] <DarkUranium> (in Blender)[15:33:37] <DarkUranium> ... not sure if this particular scene is real-time though (but so far, others have all been)[15:34:12] <DarkUranium> yup, it is.[15:34:15] <rts-sander> he went at great lengths to optimize the bandwidth[15:34:39] <DarkUranium> rts-sander, yarp.[15:35:35] <rts-sander> still intuitively 500kbps for 900 objects at 60fps feels inefficient, but I guess there's not much more to do[15:36:30] <nerfur> btw, any way to sell "idea" of game?[15:37:13] <rts-sander> sell as in give a pitch to get funding, or sell as in sell the idea itself for money?[15:37:17] <DarkUranium> rts-sander, it's 570 bytes/second/object, which *is* a lot. But remember 60FPS.[15:37:36] <DarkUranium> Per frame, it's 9.5 bytes.[15:37:48] <DarkUranium> There are ways to make it better, though. He mentions one, for starters (arithmetic coding)[15:37:48] <rts-sander> yes the FPS is the real killer there[15:38:05] <rts-sander> or back to interpolation and only sending input diffs[15:38:38] <nerfur> rts-sander: sell as in give a pitch to get funding or get team[15:39:03] <rts-sander> another way of looking at it: 500kbps to maintain a 900 player game doesn't seem as much anymore[15:39:22] <DarkUranium> Yeah, definitely. That's absurdly low then, if you think of it as players.[15:39:40] <solidfox> DarkUranium: i heard this new one is like an ultimate shader developed and released for free by disney[15:39:47] <solidfox> and i say new[15:40:00] <solidfox> but this video is from june 2017 so its at least that old[15:40:02] <DarkUranium> solidfox, you mean principled bsdf?[15:40:15] <solidfox> DarkUranium: yeah[15:40:26] <DarkUranium> Yeah, that one's pretty old. I've used it before.[15:41:18] <rts-sander> nerfur, I recently saw this talk about pitching games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTtr45y7P0[15:41:38] <rts-sander> although it talks about what _not_ to do :P[15:42:48] <DarkUranium> nerfur, I find convincing people at gunpoint helps a lot.[15:46:23] <rts-sander> although then the server needs 450mbps :O[15:48:32] <nerfur> DarkUranium: yeah! that's what video games teach us :-D[15:54:43] *** qrestlove <qrestlove!~qrestlove@2605:6000:eb4a:ef00:5d8e:3f3a:89ce:6710> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[15:58:28] *** pavonia <pavonia!~user@unaffiliated/siracusa> has quit IRC (Quit: Bye!)[16:02:30] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[16:05:03] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@c-98-252-1-155.hsd1.de.comcast.net> has joined #gamedev[16:07:50] *** qrestlove <qrestlove!~qrestlove@2605:6000:eb4a:ef00:a957:b4a3:e749:f719> has joined #gamedev[16:12:37] <LastTalon> R2robot, is it?[16:14:32] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@c-98-252-1-155.hsd1.de.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[16:14:55] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.124.99.198> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[16:18:53] <R2robot> it is.. to me. in the sense of how the industry has changed that such a simple game can have a publisher. lol[16:21:14] *** freefork_afk is now known as freestyledork[16:21:54] *** warweasle <warweasle!user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe26:d1db> has joined #gamedev[16:23:37] <DarkUranium> R2robot, wb[16:24:58] <solidfox> damn ubuntu's blender is years behind[16:25:19] <solidfox> :/[16:25:36] <solidfox> i think the clean way to get a newer version is to create your own custom repo :/[16:27:06] <R2robot> DarkUranium: thx[16:28:22] *** idiot136 <idiot136!~user@188.113.86.228> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[16:31:13] <solidfox> i dont get any shader options in blender[16:33:42] <solidfox> oh blender 2.8 hasnt been released[16:33:44] <solidfox> its not ubuntu lol[16:33:56] <solidfox> its ｂｅｔａ[16:36:43] <carldd> Yea, Ubuntu is often years behind. I have Blender 2.76b, from 2015[16:37:30] <solidfox> carldd: no actually my blender from kubuntu is current version[16:37:39] <R2robot> but like .. you don't *have* to use a package installer, right?[16:37:42] <solidfox> carldd: i thought it was behind, but 2.8 is still in beta[16:38:28] <solidfox> R2robot: no i used the kubuntu repositories instead of a package installer or build from source[16:39:32] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df081-139.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[16:39:35] <R2robot> i meant package *manager*, but yeah.. good job :D[16:40:20] *** [Relic] <[Relic]!~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:bcd9:22b6:47c5:6a68> has joined #gamedev[16:41:59] <Prestige> isn't 2.79b the most recent version?[16:42:15] <Prestige> how is 2.76b from 2015 :o[16:43:40] <carldd> 2.76b is from 2015. 2.79b is from 2017. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)#Release_history[16:44:22] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df081-139.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[16:44:48] <Prestige> Wow, that's crazy[16:45:02] *** cantel0pe is now known as cantelope[16:46:08] <solidfox> carldd: why dont you update[16:46:18] <solidfox> carldd: what version of ubuntu are you on[16:47:02] <solidfox> im on blender 2.79b[16:48:11] <solidfox> that wikipedia says 2.79b comes with the principled shader but i dont see it[16:49:38] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[16:50:56] <solidfox> im gonna ask the blender channel whats going on cause im confused[16:53:17] *** bnyio <bnyio!~bnyio@alcatraz.open-xchange.com> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)[16:53:53] <carldd> Speaking of blender packages. 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