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   January 17, 2019
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[00:00:02] <pulse> i code using comic sans ms
[00:00:04] <pulse> only way to live
[00:00:24] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: Intel HD Graphics 4000 1536 MB <- I can play solitair with that
[00:00:40] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: i downloaded tomb raider and portal 2
[00:00:50] <solidfox> i just remembered that portal 2 used to freeze on me
[00:00:59] <solidfox> forunately tomb raider was really cheap
[00:02:23] <solidfox> oh wait i have 3072 MB of GPU
[00:02:46] <solidfox> should be enough
[00:03:09] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: I still think I can play all the AAA games by just reducing the texture sizes to like 1x1 pixels
[00:03:41] <solidfox> damn got a warning that my driver or card is not supported
[00:03:46] <solidfox> why is life so unfair
[00:03:58] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: get a console!
[00:04:06] <dostoyevsky> you have a ps3, right?
[00:04:09] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: i just paid 3.50 for games
[00:04:13] <solidfox> yes i do have a ps3
[00:04:56] <solidfox> ok im gonna try plaing.
[00:05:06] <solidfox> i might freeze and not see your messages
[00:05:07] <solidfox> brb
[00:05:24] <R2robot> hahaha, I have intel HD 3000 512MB
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[00:06:10] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: enought to play the recent batman game for sure :)
[00:06:19] <R2robot> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[00:06:34] <dostoyevsky> (0.11112 FPS)
[00:06:39] <R2robot> :P
[00:07:46] <dostoyevsky> 112e-5
[00:08:12] <dostoyevsky> is still 112fps if you leave away the stuff starting from e
[00:08:19] <R2robot> the problem is the driver sucks so bad
[00:13:48] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: Yeah, it often seems that Nvidia releases a new driver for each AAA game that comes out. Like they actually wrote most of the gpu code for it
[00:14:02] <dostoyevsky> And Intel doesn't care
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[00:14:56] <dostoyevsky> Still, I am wondering why one can't write a proper game using just standard graphics API in this day and age
[00:15:46] <R2robot> yeah
[00:16:26] <R2robot> the HD 3000 was/is particularly bad as far as support. Missing certain things that should be there.
[00:16:53] <R2robot> it's always the one explicitly not supported :/
[00:17:19] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: They had someone like Homer Simpson writing the driver. "Erm, could you please tell me again about all those 'things' you wanted to have?"
[00:17:28] <R2robot> lol
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[00:18:48] <code_zombie> Why subject yourself to Intel graphics?
[00:19:13] <dostoyevsky> code_zombie: my macbook from 2012 has it
[00:19:31] <dostoyevsky> but it seems fine to work with with webgl
[00:19:39] <R2robot> same, but 2011 macbook pro
[00:20:02] <R2robot> and I didn't buy it for gaming :D
[00:20:14] <dostoyevsky> I just got my 3rd macbook pro 2012 (non-retina) from ebay
[00:20:54] <dostoyevsky> I am well-prepared to endure the time until the next laptop I want to buy comes out
[00:21:59] <R2robot> heh
[00:22:20] <R2robot> well I can't upgrade to Mojave, so I'll probably have to upgrade soon(tm)
[00:22:37] <code_zombie> It is possible to own more than one device.
[00:22:58] <solidfox> fun game
[00:23:09] <pulse> i don't understand laptop people
[00:23:12] <dostoyevsky> code_zombie: I also have like 7 iphone 5 (no s)
[00:23:19] <pulse> the greatest pleasure is to buy a bunch of custom components
[00:23:29] <pulse> then spent half of the day putting them together
[00:23:29] <R2robot> I don't like to collect junk. lol
[00:23:42] <pulse> and then crossing the fingers when you press that power button for the first time
[00:23:45] <R2robot> pulse: I don't like being tied to a desk (anymore)
[00:23:46] <pulse> ahh
[00:23:53] <pulse> R2robot, fair enough, i guess
[00:23:57] <pulse> but don't laptops also require a desk
[00:24:02] <R2robot> nope
[00:24:06] * pulse shrugs
[00:24:08] <R2robot> I'm sitting in a recliner right now :D
[00:24:21] <dostoyevsky> pulse: I heard the newer gaming laptops will have upgradeable components--I might try that
[00:24:29] <pulse> :s
[00:24:41] <pulse> which components
[00:24:45] <R2robot> GPU and CPU most likely
[00:24:47] <dostoyevsky> pulse: graphics
[00:24:51] <pulse> ah
[00:24:53] <R2robot> but that's a bit.. hacky
[00:24:54] <pulse> you still need to put it apart though
[00:25:01] <pulse> not that trivial with a laptop
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[00:25:08] <R2robot> because you're still limited to how much the upgrade can be..
[00:25:21] <R2robot> going to be bottlenecked by the bus
[00:25:29] <pulse> i like my desktop pc
[00:25:33] <pulse> and my 2 huge monitors
[00:25:36] <pulse> and a mechanical keyboard
[00:25:37] <R2robot> yeah
[00:25:42] <dostoyevsky> pulse: yeah, but a normal pc just seems to be too much of a kludge to me
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[00:25:49] <pulse> fair enough
[00:25:54] <R2robot> If I had the funds, I'd have a desktop as well as a laptop
[00:25:55] <pulse> depends on the lifestyle
[00:26:10] <pulse> if you move around a lot, desktop may not be the best choice
[00:26:28] <R2robot> sometimes I like to sit outside and code :)
[00:26:49] <code_zombie> You can remote desktop and stream games from a main machine.
[00:26:52] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: I have one of those asus gaming laptops... but can't be upgraded. so the best graphics I have is like geforce850 :)
[00:27:00] <R2robot> :)
[00:27:21] <dostoyevsky> I think it's actually just a geforce650
[00:27:35] <code_zombie> I don't like streaming, but it is probably better than Intel graphics.
[00:27:45] <R2robot> lag?
[00:27:54] <pulse> i can imagine pretty bad lag yea
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[00:28:03] <pulse> maybe with a local network it's not that bad though
[00:28:26] <R2robot> i bet it'd feel like low FPS
[00:28:30] <R2robot> even if it's not
[00:28:39] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: Compared to the lag between your cpu and gpu, the lag between cpu and network isn't too bad... even though it seems very surprising to me
[00:29:37] <R2robot> remember when they tried to make accelerated network cards?
[00:29:39] <dostoyevsky> I think john carmack said it takes like 80ms to set a pixel on the screen... with all the IOOPS involved
[00:30:03] <dostoyevsky> not sure why it's that slow or if it should be
[00:30:11] <R2robot> slow
[00:30:23] <R2robot> and it's all his fault :)
[00:30:27] <R2robot> he admits it
[00:30:51] <R2robot> because graphics companies followed his lead and emphasized framerate over latency
[00:32:47] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: where did he admit it?
[00:32:48] <code_zombie> Main issue with streaming is the video compression and occasional hitching.
[00:33:03] <R2robot> b-b-b-buffering
[00:33:55] <dostoyevsky> code_zombie: hitching-followed-by-10-mins-of-needs-more-jpeg
[00:34:19] <code_zombie> https://youtu.be/sk1xWw_o_xo
[00:34:27] <code_zombie> It is similar to that.
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[00:36:00] <R2robot> unplayable
[00:36:33] <dostoyevsky> code_zombie: when you graphics suck so much it actually is unable to display 1080px vids fluidly
[00:37:14] <R2robot> I try to watch Twitch or youtube at 1080p and my laptop fans start pushed to their limit
[00:37:28] <R2robot> can't keep the laptop on my lap. lol
[00:37:50] <R2robot> still hitches too
[00:38:05] <R2robot> one day me upgrade
[00:39:09] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: it's good that I upgraded to the 2012 model, it can do most things without fanning, like my 2011 did
[00:39:27] <R2robot> how much are 2012s?
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[00:39:44] * R2robot checks between the sofa cushions for spare change
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[00:41:08] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: under $300 USD on ebay.com ... but you need to upgrade the ram to 16b and also get an SSD... ram is not as cheap as it used to
[00:41:19] <DarkUranium> https://store.steampowered.com/app/285800/Braveland/ free
[00:41:45] <R2robot> dostoyevsky: ahh, interesting. I'm currently running 8GB, 16GB would be nice
[00:41:47] <code_zombie> R2robot: Get one of those lap stands/desks.
[00:42:12] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: you probably could reuse your 2011 model memory for the 2012 model
[00:42:17] <R2robot> code_zombie: i have one.. several actually
[00:43:41] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: a working macbook pro 2011 still goes for around 200 USD on ebay... so you could trade it in :)
[00:44:00] <R2robot> mine umm.. has 'issues' lol
[00:44:16] <R2robot> keyboard doesn't work, battery is b0rked, etc
[00:44:36] <dostoyevsky> parts only ones go for a little over 100 USD
[00:44:44] <R2robot> I'm using a cheapo wireless keyboard sitting on top of it at the moment. lol
[00:45:00] <R2robot> i'm broke AF
[00:45:13] <R2robot> 100 is a HUGE ask at the moment for me. :D
[00:45:39] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: how do you pay rent?
[00:45:50] <R2robot> house is paid for
[00:46:06] <R2robot> paid off*
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[01:00:28] <solidfox> damn game just crashed
[01:00:30] <solidfox> lol
[01:04:05] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: if your gpu was slower it might have run longer before crashing
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[01:06:19] <solidfox> huh?
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[04:26:11] <cantelope> https://codegolf.tk/a/362
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[04:40:06] <Captain_Crow> opengl shaders look confusing
[04:42:51] <Captain_Crow> why are almost all the tutorials for opengl in visual studio?
[04:43:19] <ZeZu> to further confuse you
[04:43:27] <ZeZu> ;)
[04:43:27] <NiniGeo2> What is confusing about GLSL shaders?
[04:43:32] <NiniGeo2> Maybe I can help answer some questions that you have :]
[04:44:01] <Captain_Crow> i don't even understand them enough to ask a proper question unfortunately
[04:44:24] <NiniGeo2> Oh, I see. Do Direct3D HLSL shaders make more sense to you perhaps? :o
[04:44:38] <NiniGeo2> Both HLSL and GLSL can express basically the same things.
[04:44:42] <NiniGeo2> Just in different ways~
[04:44:52] <Captain_Crow> no, i never attempted those, i use linux
[04:45:26] <NiniGeo2> Oh, I see.
[04:46:15] <Captain_Crow> trying to write my own small game engine in linux, was doing ok up until the graphics stuff
[04:46:26] <ZeZu> shaders can be rather simple
[04:46:49] <ZeZu> you can use a basic one and be very close to GL with fixed function pipeline
[04:46:56] <ZeZu> you don't need to write a bunch of shaders
[04:47:22] <ZeZu> 'unless you do'
[04:48:28] <NiniGeo2> :P
[04:48:37] <Captain_Crow> is shadow mapping a shader?
[04:48:56] <ZeZu> Is that something you're trying to implement?
[04:49:00] <NiniGeo2> It usually is nowadays a shader, yes.
[04:49:34] <ZeZu> I would think if you're trying to do something complex, you'd already have 'some' handle on how shaders might work
[04:51:16] <Captain_Crow> the only time i worked with shader materials was in blender using nodes, i have no idea how they work with c++ and opengl though
[04:52:03] <NiniGeo2> You *can* do fixed-function shadow-mapping if you want to without any shaders, but it's tough and requires the use of texture matrices.
[04:52:31] <NiniGeo2> Oh, the nodes in Blender probably get transformed into GLSL or HLSL shaders at some point :)
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[04:54:48] <Captain_Crow> are textures in opengl applied with shaders?
[04:55:18] <NiniGeo2> Standard texturing in OpenGL can be applied either via fixed-function or by shaders.
[04:55:21] <NiniGeo2> Both will work.
[04:56:12] <ZeZu> one or the other
[04:59:15] <solidfox> lol i remember trying to play this as a kid, i think i got to the part where he says they should split up and look for the captain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moW4wLlZnHk
[04:59:22] <solidfox> resident evil for psone
[05:01:07] <solidfox> nice wallpaper in that house right there
[05:01:15] <solidfox> too bad wall paper grows mold behind it
[05:01:20] <solidfox> (i wonder if that can be avoided)
[05:01:27] <solidfox> (i dont see wallpaper very often anymore)
[05:02:27] <solidfox> (my brother beat that game(
[05:02:32] <solidfox> ())
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[07:06:57] <LastTalon> Captain_Crow, what are you having trouble with re: shaders?
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[07:16:38] <Captain_Crow> trying to understand opengl and glsl
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[07:53:32] <LastTalon> Right, what aspects are you having trouble with though?
[07:58:25] <Captain_Crow> trying to find a simple example with a cube or simple 3d shape, texture, and shadow mapping that specifies which code is useful and which is boilerplate
[08:00:19] <NiniGeo2> I think that shadow mapping can be a bit tricky if you're just starting out with OpenGL or D3D because it requires the use of multiple render passes.
[08:01:24] <Captain_Crow> so avoid shadow mapping at the moment?
[08:01:54] <NiniGeo2> Well, what would you go and learn/do if you were to skip shadow mapping for now?
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[08:04:19] <Captain_Crow> trying to make a game engine with c++, i've currently been trying sfml, not sure if a framework+opengl or a graphics engine is going to be easier to work with
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[08:04:35] <NiniGeo2> Oh that's very cool :)
[08:04:38] <NiniGeo2> Are you familiar with C++ already?
[08:05:23] <Captain_Crow> im kinda familiar with c++, game logic, and starting to learn collision math and stuff
[08:05:35] <NiniGeo2> Nice!
[08:05:48] <NiniGeo2> I think that at least the syntax and (sorta) the structure of GLSL and HLSL is somewhat similar to C and C++.
[08:06:25] <NiniGeo2> Shaders are little programs that run on the GPU, and they run once per vertex (for vertex shaders), or once per fragment (for fragment shaders).
[08:06:41] <NiniGeo2> HLSL calls them "pixel shaders" and GLSL calls them "fragment shaders" but they both do the same thing.
[08:06:43] <Captain_Crow> i was watching a youtube tutorial on opengl shaders, but i was lost at the beginning and about 15 minutes in i had no clue what the dude was going on about
[08:07:40] <NiniGeo2> Oh, one thing that I think would help someone new to shaders learn shaders is to play around with them in an interactive environment where you can make changes and immediately see your changes take place!
[08:07:46] <NiniGeo2> You should check out something like ShaderToy: https://www.shadertoy.com/new
[08:08:13] <NiniGeo2> You can test your assumptions about how things work by changing things and immediately seeing your changes take place visually :]
[08:08:26] <NiniGeo2> Like start by making a shader that sets the whole screen to one color, like blue or something!
[08:08:31] <Captain_Crow> oh, thanks
[08:08:46] <NiniGeo2> Then try to make a shader that does something else, like draws half the screen black and the other half white.
[08:08:51] <NiniGeo2> Then try to make a shader that draws a circle!
[08:08:55] <NiniGeo2> And keep going~
[08:09:28] <immibis> Captain_Crow: have you made a cube without texture or shadow mapping, just a colour?
[08:11:28] <Captain_Crow> no, just loaded a triangle example once, didnt work, i remember changing something on it, then it worked, then i messed around with the vertices and colors for a bit
[08:11:38] <NiniGeo2> Ooof I just realized that ShaderToy's "fragCoord" is in screenspace pixels, not in texel-space, so you have to look at one of the uniforms to do the "half black, half white" one.
[08:13:13] <LastTalon> It also is probably worth learning about the graphics pipeline if you aren't already familiar.
[08:13:33] <LastTalon> It'll probably do a lot to resolve the whole having no clue what's being talked about thing.
[08:14:30] <NiniGeo2> Hehe, this is my favorite chart for conceptualizing the graphics pipeline, LastTalon (don't click this, Captain_Crow!): https://user.xmission.com/~legalize/book/preview/poster/pipeline-9.0.png
[08:14:45] <LastTalon> Perfect. :P
[08:15:02] <NiniGeo2> Hehe
[08:15:11] <LastTalon> Its so clear and obvious.
[08:15:38] <LastTalon> This is probably better for beginners: https://www.khronos.org/opengl/wiki/Rendering_Pipeline_Overview
[08:15:41] <LastTalon> :P
[08:15:53] <Captain_Crow> is graphics pipeline like exporting materials and converting model vertices from a 3d model program to vertices for 3d space in an engine? or do you mean something else?
[08:15:53] <NiniGeo2> Yeah, or something simple like this: https://image.slidesharecdn.com/03pipeline-120124194932-phpapp01/95/cs-354-more-graphics-pipeline-9-728.jpg?cb=1327491612
[08:16:07] <NiniGeo2> Ooooooh, Captain_Crow is thinkin' of the 3D asset pipeline!
[08:16:11] <NiniGeo2> We're talking about the 3D rendering pipeline~
[08:16:16] <NiniGeo2> It's a different pipeline~
[08:16:43] <NiniGeo2> Although converting from model space to world space is a part of the 3D graphics pipeline~
[08:16:45] <NiniGeo2> So maybe we're not? :o
[08:17:43] <LastTalon> Its just the steps taken to render objects.
[08:18:28] <LastTalon> It can be quite complicated, but the good news is that you can sort of leave it on autopilot and it'll work.
[08:18:51] <LastTalon> You only have to really specify anything you want it to do out of the ordinary.
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[08:47:24] <immibis> I still think OpenGL 1 was a lot easier to get started with, even though it's less flexible and more complicated overall
[08:47:40] <immibis> just because no shaders
[08:49:11] <Captain_Crow> there any libraries simplifying modern opengl?
[08:49:27] <NiniGeo2> I do kinda agree that the "no shaders" world was simpler overall to use, although I think it broke down when you wanted to do something complicated that it wasn't really meant to do. And additionally, it hid a lot of the math from you that shaders make you deal with directly.
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[08:55:12] <immibis> Captain_Crow: any game engine. like unity
[08:55:30] <immibis> NiniGeo2: yes, that's what I mean. easier to get started in, even though it's not as powerful
[08:59:17] <Captain_Crow> unity isn't really a library though, i can't access the source and cant port it
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[09:08:33] <Captain_Crow> is there no light weight text/code only library that i can just include before main that has some of the math and opengl calls built in to create basic objects, apply a texture, and move the camera around?
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[09:27:30] <jprajzne> Captain_Crow: glut
[09:28:08] <jprajzne> also take a look at demos/examples of major gpu vendors such as nvidia, ati, amd and intel
[09:28:56] <jprajzne> http://developer.download.nvidia.com/cg/glut.html
[09:31:07] <Captain_Crow> the glut website says sdl is a free alternative to glut, does that mean sdl has the same features built in?
[09:31:37] <jprajzne> https://graphics.stanford.edu/courses/cs248-00/helpsession/opengl/code_example.html from a stanford intro to cg course https://graphics.stanford.edu/courses/cs248-00/
[09:31:54] <immibis> depends which features are you talking about?
[09:32:06] <jprajzne> sdl is more a media library, rather than just pure graphics lib
[09:32:21] <immibis> SDL has the stuff you need to get an opengl window going, so does glfw
[09:32:41] <jprajzne> yes, sdl does the heavy lifting
[09:33:43] <immibis> there's also platform specific ways to integrate opengl into the platform's UI system, of course
[09:33:47] <jprajzne> so maybe you want to use sdl, it really depends how much you want to get your hands dirty with ogl before starting making a simple game
[09:33:47] <immibis> like wgl on windows
[09:33:53] <immibis> which is what SDL and GLFW wrap for you
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[09:34:30] <Captain_Crow> i dont use windows at all
[09:34:44] <DarkUranium> Captain_Crow, whatever youd o, don't use GLUT.
[09:35:33] <DarkUranium> GLUT has been abandoned in 2005.
[09:35:42] <DarkUranium> FreeGLUT, an alternative, has been abandoned years ago as well.
[09:35:52] <DarkUranium> (and it's always had big problems with modern APIs anyhow)
[09:36:07] <jprajzne> am so 90's, sorry :))
[09:36:35] <jprajzne> so, sdl is perhaps your choice, Captain_Crow
[09:36:38] <DarkUranium> SDL2 is probably the best choice. Gives you window setup + input + audio + input handling, all that stuff.
[09:36:49] <jprajzne> what he ^ says
[09:36:53] <Captain_Crow> what about sfml?
[09:37:17] <DarkUranium> Some people prefer GLFW (that one's just basic window+input), I dislike it for historical reasons (I neither like nor trust the devs, let's put it this way)
[09:37:38] <DarkUranium> I heard good things about it, but never used it; I prefer SDL2 because of its C API.
[09:37:47] <DarkUranium> (plus wider support for everything)
[09:37:59] <DarkUranium> If you wanna do emscripten+HTML5, for example, you want SDL2.
[09:38:03] <DarkUranium> (don't use SDL1)
[09:38:33] <Captain_Crow> i find sfml(atleast the basic stuff) easier than sdl, but havent done anything with opengl other than struggling to get triangle examples working
[09:39:02] <Captain_Crow> im not familiar with C at all, just C++
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[09:40:22] <Captain_Crow> i think that's why i find sdl2 difficult, i think the tutorials might be using C stuff
[09:41:52] <jprajzne> c and cpp share a lot?
[09:42:25] <jprajzne> same goes with objc, if you abstract a bit from the lisp-y syntax
[09:44:23] <Captain_Crow> sdl tutorials have a lot of "stdio, char, printf, etc" eventually it uses too much c stuff than im familiar with and throws me off, i just know the iostream and cin cout stuff
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[09:45:40] <jprajzne> well, if you look into cin/cout, you'll probably find some c functions
[09:46:20] <Captain_Crow> it's just what im used to seeing from c++ tutorials and what im comfortable with using
[09:46:22] <DarkUranium> Besides, cin/cout are terrible, terrible design.
[09:48:31] <Captain_Crow> is the difference with C other than syntax that it doesnt have classes and objects?
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[09:51:23] <jprajzne> Captain_Crow: it should not be hard to get used to c if you know some cpp stuff
[09:55:12] <aeth> Isn't C just C++ without classes?
[09:55:49] <jprajzne> conceptually, yes
[09:56:02] <jprajzne> but there're reimplementations of functions
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[09:56:22] <jprajzne> it's not just a oop wrapper with some implications
[09:57:03] <jprajzne> chronologically
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[10:02:04] <immibis> there's a big difference in the C *mindset* compared to c++
[10:02:18] <immibis> since there is much less compiler magic
[10:02:35] <Captain_Crow> does C have multithreading?
[10:02:53] <immibis> to the same extent that C++ does. I don't think C has a standard thread library though, it's platform specific
[10:03:55] <immibis> Linux: pthread_create. windows: _beginthreadex
[10:04:44] <Captain_Crow> doesn't core c++ have threads since c++11?
[10:05:01] <immibis> yes
[10:05:17] <immibis> just because it isn't core c doesn't mean you can't use it
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[11:54:21] <Captain_Crow> if i type "cout << !false;" i get a 1
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[13:10:04] <pulse> a bat in a hat
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   January 17, 2019
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