January 8, 2019 
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January 8, 2019 [00:00:18] <LastTalon> You'd also probably get lost instantly.[00:00:38] <LastTalon> Its very difficult to do mental mapping in 4D spaces.[00:01:10] <solidfox> what if there was a way to access the 4th dimension[00:01:18] <solidfox> that would make some interesting technology[00:01:33] <solidfox> like capsule corp style capsules (from dragon ball)[00:01:50] <solidfox> oh btw, cant find the game on steam's site[00:01:52] <solidfox> Miegakure[00:02:16] <LastTalon> Well if the 4th dimension is a thing, it looks a lot like the 3 dimensions we already have.[00:02:51] <solidfox> well we only have a 2d retina[00:03:01] <LastTalon> I mean... in any way you can observe it.[00:03:06] <solidfox> ah[00:03:08] <LastTalon> It looks and acts 3D even if its not.[00:03:16] <solidfox> guess there isnt a 4th spatial dimension then[00:03:21] <LastTalon> Like... string theory for instance attempts to explain this.[00:03:39] <LastTalon> Well they're might be, but it would be so fractally wrapped upon itself that it appears 3D anyway.[00:04:11] <LastTalon> There's really no way to prove it with our current understanding unfortunately.[00:04:22] <LastTalon> But... it looks 3D and acts 3D, so...[00:04:28] * LastTalon shrugs[00:04:46] <LastTalon> Although, other fields suggest that its a projection.[00:05:01] <LastTalon> That we aren't really 3D, but just a 2D plane acting 3D[00:05:08] <LastTalon> :D[00:05:55] <aeth> as if we're not 1D[00:06:10] <LastTalon> Which, yes, logically could mean that its 1D even[00:06:26] <LastTalon> Black holes could also contain entire universes on their event horizons.[00:06:42] <LastTalon> And we could be one of these universes on the event horizon of another black hole in a higher universe.[00:07:00] <LastTalon> And its clearly turtles all the way down.[00:07:19] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[00:10:32] <solidfox> so maybe a black hole is the way to move into another parallel dimension? only presumably you'd get torn apart on the journey[00:10:53] <LastTalon> You'd definitely get torn apart.[00:11:10] <LastTalon> But the idea is basically to do with the way information is preserved in black holes.[00:11:58] <LastTalon> And it turns out that its preserved on the event horizon itself, paradoxically you only need the square of a radius rather than its cube to contain the maximum entropy in a given area.[00:12:13] <LastTalon> So the event horizon can effectively be a projection of a 3D area.[00:12:35] <solidfox> would we be untorn apart on the other side tho[00:12:39] <LastTalon> What that looks like or how it behaves we have no idea.[00:12:52] <LastTalon> Lol. You'd be torn apart by tidal forces and spaghettification before you got there.[00:12:59] <LastTalon> You'd definitely be torn apart.[00:13:07] <solidfox> but would we become untorn[00:13:20] <solidfox> when we enter the parallel dimension[00:13:33] <Buoy172> what would be a 1.5D game[00:13:50] <LastTalon> Well if the event horizon of a black hole were acting like another universe, you're information that could be encoding matter/energy in that universe.[00:14:04] <LastTalon> But you'd really cease to be you at that point.[00:14:14] <solidfox> dude[00:14:18] <solidfox> lets hack black holes[00:14:27] <LastTalon> Its kind of like asking if you were used as fissile material whether you'd "become" something else.[00:14:28] <solidfox> we can send in an arrangement of matter[00:14:32] <LastTalon> I mean yes in some sort of sense.[00:14:38] <Atari2600> solidfox, I was talking about PEZ[00:14:43] <solidfox> special arrangement that might be an input that turns it inside out[00:14:49] <solidfox> blowing instead of sucking[00:14:55] <Atari2600> gaah! string theory! no! blow this shit up[00:15:04] <Atari2600> mega scam[00:15:30] <solidfox> are black holes turing complete?[00:15:37] <solidfox> can they be programmed?[00:15:56] <LastTalon> solidfox, as I said, we don't know what this looks like or how it behaves.[00:16:02] <LastTalon> There is no way to observe it.[00:16:51] <solidfox> perl -e "print '\x41'*99999999999999"[00:17:08] <LastTalon> There are some neat ways to hack black holes.[00:17:33] <LastTalon> But as far as we know you can't get information out of black holes.[00:17:43] <LastTalon> The information is not destroyed, but you can't access it.[00:17:44] <solidfox> so its like a one way tree[00:18:36] <solidfox> struct universe { void *universe_data; struct universe *black_holes}[00:19:28] <solidfox> yes if we cant get info out, then we can't go up the tree either[00:19:48] <solidfox> NiniGeo2: i cant find Miegakure [Hide & Reveal][00:19:50] <solidfox> anywhere[00:21:30] <LastTalon> solidfox, if you want to read on the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox[00:21:48] <solidfox> nah i just wanna play the 4d game lol[00:22:34] <solidfox> i guess its not released yet[00:22:43] <solidfox> ok i'll read it LastTalon[00:23:12] *** knops <knops!~yannick@ip-62-143-84-11.hsi01.unitymediagroup.de> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[00:23:59] <solidfox> oh wait i messed up the declaration[00:24:04] <LastTalon> solidfox, this is just one explanation of course. The downside is that its borderline unfalsifiable.[00:24:13] <LastTalon> Like... it would be incredibly hard to test.[00:24:23] <LastTalon> But we are talking about black holes, so....[00:24:26] <solidfox> typedef struct unievreseese *universe;[00:24:38] <solidfox> there we got ADT means you cant mess around with the internals[00:25:34] <solidfox> LastTalon: well if black holes are universes, then our universe could be a black hole and thus induction could be used to prove a recursive problem[00:25:39] <solidfox> induction is recursion[00:25:49] <LastTalon> Not really.[00:26:03] <LastTalon> We can't observe anything in either direction.[00:26:41] <Atari2600> the Toy Boy knew how to leave the black hole[00:27:23] <LastTalon> We can't observe what caused* or happens outside of* our universe. Neither can we observe what happens to matter that enters a black hole.[00:27:57] *** ZeroSystem <ZeroSystem!45f81b6b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.248.27.107> has joined #gamedev[00:27:59] <pulse> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzball_(string_theory)[00:28:12] <LastTalon> Time for string theory!\[00:34:21] <LastTalon> pulse, problem with the fuzzball one is it means that it means the way we understand classical gravity is wrong.[00:34:37] <pulse> sounds about right[00:34:40] <pulse> :p[00:34:43] <LastTalon> Which is totally true.[00:34:48] <LastTalon> I mean it could be at least.[00:34:59] <LastTalon> String theory makes sense in isolation.[00:35:07] <pulse> problem with string theory in general is that it's hard if not impossible to prove[00:35:08] <LastTalon> The problem is always getting it to work alongside literally any other theory.[00:35:14] <pulse> yeah[00:35:15] <LastTalon> Right.[00:35:28] <LastTalon> Its kind of hard to talk about almost anything going on as strings in 11 dimensions[00:35:33] <LastTalon> Even very simple things.[00:36:14] <LastTalon> So it could be the case that our classical approximation of gravity is completely wrong.[00:36:22] <LastTalon> But no one has yet to prove this from string theory.[00:38:56] <LastTalon> I'm personally partial to the universe projection one just because it doesn't really require anything we have a fairly solid understanding of to be blown out of the water.[00:39:58] <LastTalon> But being borderline-unfalsifiable does mean you can start saying some pretty crazy stuff and saying it doesn't go against what we know.[00:41:30] <pulse> i better stop reading these string theory articles, it's giving me the onset of an existential crisis[00:42:10] <pulse> it may all just be a russell's teapot :p[00:44:10] <LastTalon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein%E2%80%93Cartan_theory#Avoidance_of_singularities[00:44:14] <LastTalon> For those interested.[00:46:37] <pulse> borderline unfalsifiable is correct[00:46:55] <LastTalon> I mean its basically which assumption to choose.[00:47:31] <LastTalon> This just happens to be one that violates Occam's razor.[00:47:39] <NiniGeo2> Awwwh, it looks like Miegakure is still in development solidfox :o[00:47:54] <LastTalon> That doesn't mean it isn't true though.[00:48:09] <NiniGeo2> That is unfortunate, but you can still play one of the other 4D games from this list on Wikipedia :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_four-dimensional_games[00:48:45] <LastTalon> I mean we could test it. We just really have no way of doing it.[00:49:01] <LastTalon> If you could make black holes then you could test it quite easily.[00:49:11] <LastTalon> You'd just have to find at which density something becomes a black hole.[00:49:17] <LastTalon> Easy, right? :D[00:49:20] <LastTalon> :P[00:49:40] <NiniGeo2> Oh, haven't humans created black holes in high-energy particle accelerators before LastTalon? :o[00:49:46] <NiniGeo2> Like, really really small ones :3[00:49:47] <pulse> wasn't there a theory that there's micro-black holes everywhere[00:49:48] <LastTalon> Probably?[00:50:43] *** RoadKillGrill <RoadKillGrill!~RoadKillG@cpe-24-166-114-198.neo.res.rr.com> has joined #gamedev[00:51:03] <pulse> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole[00:51:53] <pulse> the screwed up thing about physics is[00:51:55] <pulse> there's so much of it[00:52:08] <pulse> you'd have to understand pretty much all of it to have enough context to draw meaningful conclusions[00:52:36] <LastTalon> NiniGeo2, yeah, but we don't know the density.[00:52:43] <LastTalon> They're formed with only a few particles.[00:52:48] <LastTalon> In a particle accelerator[00:52:59] <NiniGeo2> Particle accelerators are cool :)[00:53:01] <LastTalon> We only get a snapshot of what comes out of a collision.[00:53:12] <LastTalon> So we never see the black holes, just the results of their decay.[00:53:14] <LastTalon> Lol[00:53:17] <LastTalon> Darn.[00:55:12] <LastTalon> Logically, thinking about it now, that would always be the case for black holes made of only a few particles.[00:55:13] <NiniGeo2> I'm not sure if it would be safe to create a black hole large enough to see :o[00:55:21] <NiniGeo2> Besides, that'd take a crazy huge amount of mass/energy to do![00:55:30] <LastTalon> Right, that's really the problem.[00:55:37] <LastTalon> You're talking about star-levels of gravity.[00:55:45] <NiniGeo2> Yeah, that'd be really bad for the Earth xD[00:58:10] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[00:58:59] <LastTalon> I'm not so sure on the dangerous-ness of small black holes though.[00:59:15] <LastTalon> They would have very little gravity and emit a lot of hawking radiation.[00:59:36] <LastTalon> My suspicion would be that the hawking radiation for a small black hole would actually push atmosphere away from it. :P[01:00:43] <LastTalon> You could always do it in a vacuum and hold it in place with an electric charge.[01:00:47] * LastTalon shrugs[01:02:47] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has joined #gamedev[01:03:06] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[01:05:36] <solidfox> hey guys[01:05:48] <solidfox> lets make a 4D minecraft from forking minetest[01:06:25] *** macza <macza!~macza@67.231.29.194> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[01:06:37] <LastTalon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_of_high-energy_particle_collision_experiments#Micro_black_holes[01:07:43] <LastTalon> No, the challenge would definitely be getting enough mass together to be both observable and dense enough to form a black hole.[01:08:53] <LastTalon> Maybe if we ever master space travel we could do some experiments on neutron stars.[01:13:26] <solidfox> that game is never gonna come out :<[01:16:09] <LastTalon> "Miegakure is still very much a work in progress, but we hope to release the game next year." - Miegakure 2014[01:18:22] <solidfox> heh[01:18:38] <solidfox> Miegakure is like the fusion energy of gaming[01:19:01] <solidfox> always right around the corner..[01:23:39] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[01:23:55] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has quit IRC (Quit: http://www.shlomifish.org/ ; Some people grow older and wiser. Not I. I grow older and more foolish.)[01:28:47] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[01:28:59] <NiniGeo2> Hehe[01:33:51] *** Beliar <Beliar!~Beliar@2a02:8108:9640:6c42:8d88:5d77:64e1:e7c8> has quit IRC (Quit: The only real mistake is the one from which we learn nothing)[01:38:47] *** freestyledork is now known as freefork_afk[01:39:48] *** freefork_afk is now known as freestyledork[01:57:50] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[01:58:20] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[02:02:58] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[02:04:18] *** [Relic] <[Relic]!~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:915:5453:bb30:6207> has joined #gamedev[02:06:45] <dostoyevsky> When I want to manipulate bones of a 3d object (e.g. move it) .. how does that usually happen? How is that mapped?[02:10:00] <solidfox> yes[02:10:07] <solidfox> nevermind[02:10:37] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: yes https://marionettestudio.com/skeletal-animation/[02:12:52] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: if a bone is covering the area of many meshes how are they attached to it?[02:13:44] <dostoyevsky> does every mesh have like a pointer to a bone it is attached to? So when the bone moves, you'd just adjust all the meshes involved?[02:17:35] *** cheakoirccloud <cheakoirccloud!uid293319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lamrzqkzvyuqptxp> has joined #gamedev[02:20:19] *** david2_ <david2_!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[02:25:45] <NiniGeo2> Hihi dostoyevsky[02:27:28] <NiniGeo2> The way it usually works is that each vertex has a bone index (kinda like a pointer) to the bones (using 4 bones per vertex is typical) that affect it. Then you compute the bone transforms for that game frame, and when you're rendering the skinned meshes, you pass in the bones so that the vertex shaders can blend their positions and normals based on the bone-weights.[02:28:47] <dostoyevsky> NiniGeo2: ah, neat![02:28:53] <dostoyevsky> thanks for the explanation!![02:29:31] <NiniGeo2> No problemo~[02:29:47] <NiniGeo2> Do you have any other questions about bone rendering that I can help you out with?[02:31:22] <dostoyevsky> NiniGeo2: animations are about manipuating bones and mapping the bones to meshes is part of a vertex (?) shader?[02:40:19] <dostoyevsky> Also, I am using assimp2json (from fbx) and I have meshes and animations in there but the bones are stored where? Are they just normal meshes that have a special tag? Or would they be under animations?[02:42:52] <NiniGeo2> So for most animations, they are driven and computed by the CPU. You're right that animations are just about manipulating bones though. The mapping of bones to meshes is usually an offline process that is a part of rigging and animating.[02:45:04] <NiniGeo2> Bones *should* be stored in an exported FBX, so long as the person using the exporter checks the box that includes bones in the FBX.[02:45:58] <NiniGeo2> I am not certain without looking up the FBX file format where bones would be stored, but bones are typically stored in their own table, separate from meshes and polygon data.[02:48:27] <dostoyevsky> NiniGeo2: good to know!!! thanks again, I think that's all I need to know for now[02:55:45] *** macza <macza!~macza@67.231.29.194> has joined #gamedev[02:59:41] <NiniGeo2> :][02:59:43] <NiniGeo2> Good luck dostoyevsky![03:29:48] *** pulse <pulse!~pulse@unaffiliated/pulse> has quit IRC (Quit: pulse)[03:30:26] *** macza <macza!~macza@67.231.29.194> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[03:46:10] <LastTalon> Also as a side-note, iirc if you're going to do this gpu side you'd need the geometry shader.[03:46:17] <LastTalon> Not just the vertex shader.[03:46:25] * LastTalon being late to the party[03:46:43] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has joined #gamedev[03:47:57] <LastTalon> The vertex shader won't provide the information you need about the surroundings of each vertex to do the job properly.[03:50:08] *** freestyledork is now known as freefork_afk[03:50:16] <NiniGeo2> Oh interesting. The use case that I've seen in the past for using the geometry shader with skinning is in using the GS's Stream Out capability to skin a mesh once, and then save it for use in future render-passes (Z prepass, color pass, shadow pass, etc.)[03:50:44] <LastTalon> I think the geometry shader is the least understood tbh.[03:51:10] <NiniGeo2> It does have a bunch of tricky options to it![03:51:23] <LastTalon> Its also something that (by and large at least) doesn't get used.[03:51:37] <solidfox> man i wish i were artistic[03:51:47] <NiniGeo2> Yeah. From what I've heard, using variable-output sizes or using GS cuts can cause bad performance problems, even on modern GPUs :([03:51:50] <solidfox> is there some kind of book that will teach me how to be a good artist?[03:52:07] <NiniGeo2> solidfox I think that being a good artist takes a long time, and tons of practice![03:52:15] <LastTalon> solidfox, yeah, its really a matter of practice.[03:52:21] <LastTalon> I mean you can read art theory if you want.[03:52:33] <LastTalon> Like you can learn about painting technique and color and whatnot.[03:52:39] <solidfox> yes[03:52:50] <LastTalon> But to be a good artist you have to make a lot of art.[03:53:02] <solidfox> i think maybe its too late for me[03:53:08] <solidfox> im already 22, its over[03:53:19] <LastTalon> One cannot fly into flying.[03:53:20] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[03:53:31] <solidfox> LastTalon: what[03:53:53] <solidfox> ah[03:53:55] <LastTalon> He who would learn to fly one day must first learn to walk and run and climb and dance; one cannot fly into flying.[03:53:56] <solidfox> i g00gled it[03:54:07] <solidfox> nice neitczhe[03:54:13] <solidfox> the enemy of nihilism![03:54:40] <solidfox> one of my favorite philosophers (albeit i havent read his book)[03:54:56] <LastTalon> He has a lot of interesting quotes.[03:54:58] <LastTalon> :D[03:55:16] <LastTalon> And most of them translate quite well.[03:55:18] <solidfox> yes i like the one about those who know they are deep strive for clarity[03:55:33] <baudejogos> unit tests! more of them![03:55:34] <baudejogos> MOAR![03:56:30] <LastTalon> solidfox, yeah, thats a good one.[03:59:41] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[04:04:14] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[04:07:13] *** shake <shake!~shake@cable-95-168-139-220.cust.telecolumbus.net> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[04:25:43] *** backthen <backthen!~backthen@c-76-103-179-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> has joined #gamedev[04:25:56] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[04:27:03] *** cheakoirccloud <cheakoirccloud!uid293319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lamrzqkzvyuqptxp> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[04:29:44] *** Buoy172 <Buoy172!~Buoy172@95.86.6.187> has quit IRC ()[04:32:22] *** macza <macza!~macza@d75-157-125-9.bchsia.telus.net> has joined #gamedev[04:36:17] <solidfox> i drew a robin[04:36:33] *** macza <macza!~macza@d75-157-125-9.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)[04:36:39] <solidfox> from reference image[04:36:44] <solidfox> smth aint right but idk what[04:36:50] <solidfox> oh well[04:38:25] <babuloseo> teen titants is ggreat[04:39:03] *** S_Gautam <S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-urpqrhqrxjxdcqfw> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[04:39:10] <baudejogos> it is[04:40:29] <solidfox> babuloseo: lol i meant the bird[04:40:36] <solidfox> google image search did that to me too[04:40:44] <solidfox> i searched for robin and it showed the teen titan robin[04:41:52] <solidfox> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ur47nRByY0 "Teen Titans Theme Song (full) By: Puffy Ami Yumi"[04:45:09] <R2robot> they have 2 good songs I listen to all the time. That isn't one of them :P[04:46:40] <solidfox> R2robot: ah[04:46:49] <solidfox> R2robot: which are the ones that you like[04:47:10] *** pavonia <pavonia!~user@unaffiliated/siracusa> has quit IRC (Quit: Bye!)[04:47:37] <R2robot> Umi Eto and December[04:48:19] <R2robot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNGxJ2y33pE[04:48:39] <R2robot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWHyNRv1x3g[04:52:41] <R2robot> and this one is ok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qtbhcz0qRZk[04:52:51] <solidfox> R2robot: i dont know japanese[04:53:03] <R2robot> neither do i :)[04:53:04] <baudejogos> I won this game: https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/49864240_2040528032693881_6733579272025276416_n.png?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=ceda3fe7ee429a5e64255aa19da86da4&oe=5CD7E74E[04:53:57] <solidfox> ooh weechat buffer only view coming in handy[04:54:16] <solidfox> woah that looks cool baudejogos[04:54:18] <R2robot> alt+l?[04:54:22] <solidfox> R2robot: yeah.[04:54:25] <R2robot> :D[04:54:35] <solidfox> R2robot: yes sometimes i listen to a japanese or korean song[04:54:48] <R2robot> i use urlserver.py, it pastes a shortened url underneath every posted url[04:55:17] <baudejogos> lotsa fun yeah[04:55:21] <baudejogos> but it gave me a headache[04:56:01] <R2robot> https://snag.gy/NEXAxV.jpg solidfox[04:57:52] <solidfox> R2robot: ahh thats pretty nifty[05:04:38] <baudejogos> mtg arena really mimicked hearthstone UI[05:08:43] <solidfox> i like this "Color Theory Basics" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1CK9bE3H_s[05:11:02] <solidfox> woah there's a person at the end[05:11:04] <solidfox> scared me[05:15:53] *** refs <refs!~refs@dslb-178-005-091-189.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has quit IRC (Quit: refs)[05:19:08] *** batman_nair <batman_nair!~batman_na@111.92.77.160> has joined #gamedev[05:20:01] *** Donitzo <Donitzo!~Donitzo@85-156-203-108.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[05:21:54] *** Donitzo <Donitzo!~Donitzo@85-156-203-108.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has joined #gamedev[05:46:32] *** Tylak <Tylak!~Tylak@074-135-002-092.res.spectrum.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)[06:01:51] *** RoadKillGrill <RoadKillGrill!~RoadKillG@cpe-24-166-114-198.neo.res.rr.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[06:03:41] <R2robot> lol[06:04:42] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)[06:15:22] *** [Relic] <[Relic]!~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:915:5453:bb30:6207> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[06:19:14] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[06:21:44] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[06:26:41] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has joined #gamedev[06:29:56] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[06:45:17] *** backthen <backthen!~backthen@c-76-103-179-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[06:49:13] *** xrash <xrash!~xrash@189.78.182.121> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[06:55:16] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)[07:09:47] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[07:14:05] *** mr_lou <mr_lou!~misthalos@085083077157.dynamic.telenor.dk> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[07:14:08] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)[07:18:55] <LastTalon> So I just watched a talk where a game dev talked about how he made the same game 7 times with different reskins and slight variations in mechanics, a few other games, none of which made very much revenue, and proceeded to give people advice that they should therefore emulate his strategy of sort of just hoping that the long tails of these games produce enough money in the long term while being in debt.[07:19:09] <LastTalon> I'm not exactly sure why I'm supposed to take his advice.[07:20:19] <LastTalon> It sort of sounds like the strategy boils down to, "just keep doing it and hope it works out later on."[07:20:25] <LastTalon> Sounds like survivor bias.[07:20:44] <NiniGeo2> :P[07:21:16] <LastTalon> I might be a little cynical here, but I feel like others have tried this same strategy and its failed them.[07:26:08] <NiniGeo2> I think that it is quite admirable to have made that many games that didn't pick up revenue and yet he's still trying :)[07:26:17] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[07:26:36] <LastTalon> If there is something to take away from it its definitely persistence.[07:30:11] <LastTalon> There's just sort of something that rings hollow about it.[07:31:01] <DnzAtWrk> what about persistance[07:33:31] <LastTalon> DnzAtWrk, a talk I watched where a guy very persistently makes games.[07:33:59] <LastTalon> That don't make much revenue, but advocates people do this while going into debt hoping things work out in the end.[07:34:17] <DnzAtWrk> just do what is fun :P[07:34:42] <LastTalon> I was saying it sounds like survivor bias.[07:35:35] *** stefkos <stefkos!~Pawel@79.184.5.89.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl> has joined #gamedev[07:48:14] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!jprajzne@nat/redhat/x-jjmzrpawdnqrhbkl> has joined #gamedev[07:51:55] *** NiniGeo2 <NiniGeo2!~NiniGeo2@c-73-178-72-18.hsd1.nj.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Nini guys! :))[08:10:53] *** stefkos <stefkos!~Pawel@79.184.5.89.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[08:15:10] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[08:20:09] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[08:21:47] *** pulse <pulse!~pulse@unaffiliated/pulse> has joined #gamedev[08:24:11] *** Beliar <Beliar!~Beliar@2a02:8108:9640:6c42:c965:18cb:bc98:ee11> has joined #gamedev[08:24:29] <gogoprog> plop[08:27:08] <R2robot> LastTalon: long-hair guy from Grey Alien Studios?[08:28:32] <R2robot> Basically it comes down to creating a back catalog that continues to generate revenue while you develop new things[08:29:56] <R2robot> this guy: https://twitter.com/GreyAlien/status/1081685530587197440[08:30:47] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[08:32:54] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[08:35:52] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[08:39:08] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[08:50:47] <LastTalon> R2robot, yeah, I got that much. But his supposed strategy isn't particularly useful.[08:50:53] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[08:51:42] <R2robot> LastTalon: i think it is for young, single devs which funnily enough, he is not. lol[08:52:07] <LastTalon> I mean some of the questions from the crowd even seemed to be somewhat skeptical. At the end.[08:52:43] <R2robot> yeah.. because he himself didn't quite follow it. He had to do contract work and at one point moved to canada to work full time for another dev studio[08:53:52] <LastTalon> And like I said, that's serious survivor bias.[08:54:03] <LastTalon> Sadly, not everyone who just keeps at it will succeed.[08:54:11] <R2robot> of course[08:54:32] <R2robot> but i think it's viable for young, single devs.. no family, no mortgage[08:54:57] <LastTalon> I feel like spending the hour talking about how to analyze your metrics would have been of more use though.[08:55:08] <R2robot> debt = dream killer[08:55:10] <LastTalon> I don't need an hour for someone to say "keep at it".[08:55:17] * LastTalon shrugs[08:55:47] <LastTalon> Idk. That sort of seems like a rose-tinted view of the world.[08:55:57] <LastTalon> Everyone has stuff they need to be doing, everyone has obligations.[08:55:59] <R2robot> sometimes that is necessary :)[08:57:47] <LastTalon> I want people to teach me how to be successful and make good games, damnit. Not some pep talk my grandma would give.[08:57:52] <LastTalon> :P[08:57:59] <R2robot> :D[08:58:10] <R2robot> have you watched Joe Vogel's talk?[08:58:21] <R2robot> Jeff*[08:58:24] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[08:58:37] <LastTalon> Idk. I usually quickly forget who was talking.[08:59:25] <LastTalon> Part of the way I think and retain so much information is by involuntarily forgetting extraneous details of things.[08:59:27] <R2robot> same, I had to google the name to remember[08:59:44] <R2robot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs[09:00:06] <LastTalon> I'll have to watch it tomorrow.[09:00:11] <LastTalon> I'm about to head to bed.[09:00:13] <R2robot> no, NOW![09:00:15] <R2robot> :P[09:00:17] <LastTalon> See ya. :P[09:00:19] <R2robot> o/[09:04:53] <pulse> jeff vogel is my hero[09:05:34] <R2robot> \(´▽`)/[09:16:26] <pulse> is this art https://imgur.com/a/YQ8HMTw[09:24:48] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[09:26:32] <R2robot> welllllllllllll[09:39:45] *** david2_ <david2_!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has joined #gamedev[09:43:05] *** mr_lou <mr_lou!~misthalos@085083077157.dynamic.telenor.dk> has joined #gamedev[09:45:01] *** david2_ <david2_!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[10:01:31] *** david2_ <david2_!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has joined #gamedev[10:03:43] *** batman_nair <batman_nair!~batman_na@111.92.77.160> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[10:05:20] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[10:06:04] *** david2_ <david2_!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[10:18:10] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has joined #gamedev[10:55:43] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[11:04:34] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[11:25:08] <dostoyevsky> pulse: very[11:26:04] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[11:32:15] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[11:33:58] <dostoyevsky> so what's an overhyped game idea?[11:34:16] <DnzAtWrk> procedurally generated worlds[11:35:29] <DnzAtWrk> god I just want to lie down and sleep[11:37:29] <dostoyevsky> Imma write the No Man's Sky of Tetris games[11:54:41] *** RazielZ <RazielZ!~Raziel@unaffiliated/raziel> has joined #gamedev[12:22:48] *** pavonia <pavonia!~user@unaffiliated/siracusa> has joined #gamedev[12:25:04] *** batman_nair <batman_nair!~batman_na@111.92.77.160> has joined #gamedev[12:33:05] *** batman_nair <batman_nair!~batman_na@111.92.77.160> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[12:42:04] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[12:55:43] *** ZeroSystem <ZeroSystem!45f81b6b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.248.27.107> has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed)[12:59:44] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has quit IRC (Quit: http://www.shlomifish.org/ ; Some people grow older and wiser. Not I. I grow older and more foolish.)[13:00:42] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[13:01:23] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has joined #gamedev[13:07:31] <jprajzne> http://www.stroustrup.com/JSF-AV-rules.pdf - should be good?[13:13:11] <brainzap> 2005?[13:18:57] <jprajzne> brainzap: arbitrary number?[13:24:02] <jprajzne> https://www.algorithm-archive.org/ that's a lot[13:26:05] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[13:33:13] <jprajzne> https://blog.usejournal.com/little-known-features-of-javascript-901665291387 for js folks[13:38:21] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[13:51:10] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[13:52:08] *** xen74 <xen74!~xen74@2001:44b8:2e3:9b00:c0da:9f5:b09f:4db> has joined #gamedev[13:58:22] *** aly777 <aly777!~kes777@50-242-177-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net> has joined #gamedev[13:58:31] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[14:08:25] *** RazielZ <RazielZ!~Raziel@unaffiliated/raziel> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[14:11:25] *** DaScoot <DaScoot!~Scooter@static-24-153-33-9.cpe.metrocast.net> has joined #gamedev[14:12:25] *** RazielZ <RazielZ!~Raziel@unaffiliated/raziel> has joined #gamedev[14:12:49] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[14:22:53] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[14:34:08] <rindolf> jprajzne: heh[14:35:17] *** notus <notus!uid244649@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ohrdjgtgponmmpkj> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[14:35:39] *** bnyio <bnyio!~bnyio@alcatraz.open-xchange.com> has joined #gamedev[14:42:40] *** gogoprog <gogoprog!~gogoprog@2a02:a03f:44f0:6600:71a2:8b47:f039:570d> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)[14:47:17] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[14:49:25] *** refs <refs!~refs@dslb-178-005-091-189.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined #gamedev[15:03:04] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[15:06:22] *** Tylak <Tylak!~Tylak@074-135-002-092.res.spectrum.com> has joined #gamedev[15:16:50] <markand> hello there[15:16:56] <markand> I'm trying to use a ECS in my game[15:17:01] <markand> I just have a quick question[15:17:26] <markand> let say I have my system moving my player, I think I should have a state "moving" in the component "position"?[15:17:48] <markand> so that the graphic system can use an animation while checking if there is a moving state[15:23:53] <baudejogos> :D[15:27:57] *** RandomCouch <RandomCouch!~RandomSof@207.219.200.115> has joined #gamedev[15:28:26] <RandomCouch> Is it me or is there way more people here than there were not so long ago?[15:34:24] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[15:35:16] <brainzap> we had children[15:39:02] *** fidasx <fidasx!~fidasx@ppp-94-66-221-79.home.otenet.gr> has joined #gamedev[15:40:46] <myke> ugh[15:40:52] <myke> ecs has wasted so much of people's time[15:43:12] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[15:44:00] <RandomCouch> Why[15:56:10] *** [Relic] <[Relic]!~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:f05b:eb5d:22cf:9d5d> has joined #gamedev[15:57:05] <markand> but in a game it's really nice[15:57:16] <markand> especially in a server/client code[15:57:24] <markand> so you can separate logic code from rendering[16:02:22] <jprajzne> isn't it why we have design patterns as general abstract concepts?[16:03:43] <markand> yes ECS is one[16:04:43] <jprajzne> ecs is a specific implementation, you can write your based on whether you need the whole ecs package (and overhead associated with it), or not[16:04:56] <jprajzne> it's mvc pattern[16:05:03] <markand> I can write my own composite system[16:05:10] *** bnyio <bnyio!~bnyio@alcatraz.open-xchange.com> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)[16:05:10] <markand> but that result in a NIH syndrom[16:05:59] <jprajzne> well, there're lots of text editors, for example[16:06:02] <jprajzne> is that nih?[16:06:37] <markand> they're all different[16:07:32] <jprajzne> so, why do you assume your implementation would result in another ecs?[16:07:54] <jprajzne> while all you probably need is just mvc[16:18:10] *** Donitzo <Donitzo!~Donitzo@85-156-203-108.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[16:20:37] *** xrash <xrash!~xrash@189.78.182.121> has joined #gamedev[16:20:57] *** Donitzo <Donitzo!~Donitzo@85-156-203-108.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has joined #gamedev[16:28:39] *** aindilis <aindilis!~aindilis@172-12-3-117.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[16:32:08] *** aindilis <aindilis!~aindilis@172-12-3-117.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net> has joined #gamedev[16:35:33] <DarkUranium> So, the early access demo thingie of ours is out on Steam \o/[16:35:51] <DarkUranium> https://store.steampowered.com/app/964570/DCL__The_Game_FPV_Drone_Racing/[16:40:10] *** Buoy172 <Buoy172!~Buoy172@95.86.6.187> has joined #gamedev[16:42:15] <pulse> DarkUranium, congrats[16:42:16] <pulse> looks rad[16:42:56] <DarkUranium> pulse, thanks[16:50:51] *** freefork_afk is now known as freestyledork[16:53:46] <RandomCouch> oooh pretty noice[16:54:08] <RandomCouch> looks pretty polished[16:58:36] *** warweasle <warweasle!user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe26:d1db> has joined #gamedev[17:04:31] <Atari2600> lol, they took pretty quickly to relate ecs with mvc[17:04:37] <Atari2600> but both are just buzzwords :)[17:04:47] <Atari2600> hypey! trendy![17:07:59] <DarkUranium> ECS with MVC ... I fail to see the relation.[17:08:30] <DarkUranium> Well, if you squint just right, I guess.[17:08:49] <DarkUranium> EC is basically MVC's 'M', and systems are MVC's controllers (because behavior) ... and views, I guess, are what systems operate on. But this is views of DATA, whereas MVC is user-facing view, so ...[17:08:57] <DarkUranium> yeah, no[17:09:57] <R2robot> trendy? they've both been around forever[17:10:26] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has joined #gamedev[17:10:51] <Atari2600> forever in the mouths of the braggers[17:11:10] <Atari2600> while they brag, I write useful code instead[17:11:28] <R2robot> debatable :P[17:11:29] <solidfox> yes im a super elite[17:13:14] <DarkUranium> R2robot, well, they kind of are.[17:13:16] <DarkUranium> I guess.[17:13:31] <R2robot> heheh[17:13:33] <DarkUranium> I mean, ECS has been around forever, but it's finally gaining some traction in engines the average joe can use[17:13:45] <DarkUranium> (as opposed to internal stuff)[17:13:46] <Atari2600> :][17:13:58] *** Thurien <Thurien!~quassel@ip5f5ac9e2.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de> has quit IRC (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)[17:14:05] <R2robot> C++ also trendy in that way[17:14:07] <R2robot> :P[17:14:39] <Atari2600> https://imgur.com/gallery/vM25dCh[17:14:54] <solidfox> what kind of limitations could there be for a games team to make their own engine (like kojima productions and the fox engine)[17:15:48] <DarkUranium> solidfox, depends on the game, really.[17:16:10] <solidfox> DarkUranium: i remember they kept having to make changes to MGS4 at the last minute, and it crashed a lot[17:16:31] <solidfox> then they developed the fox engine alongside mgs peace walker[17:16:49] <solidfox> i guess they wanted photorealism, without all the bugs[17:17:18] <solidfox> so i assume their old engine had bugs?[17:17:23] <R2robot> bugs add character[17:17:55] <solidfox> R2robot: i never saw mgs4 crash, but GTAV crashes all the time[17:18:20] <R2robot> crashes build tension and suspense[17:18:31] <solidfox> no they breed resentment[17:18:40] <solidfox> i hate GTAV and rockstart games[17:18:46] <DarkUranium> there are no bugs, silly[17:18:48] <DarkUranium> just surprise features[17:18:52] <solidfox> and the PS3[17:19:14] <solidfox> the only reason i still tolerate my ps3 is to play MGS1 MGS2 MGS3 MGS4 and MGSV[17:19:21] <solidfox> oh and peace walker[17:19:25] <R2robot> hahaha, I like 'surprise features'[17:19:37] <solidfox> lol[17:19:57] <solidfox> surprise! its just an oppurtunity to try again :)[17:21:39] <Atari2600> MSX2 Metal Gear 1 and 2 were the best ones[17:21:43] <Atari2600> all these new ones suck[17:21:53] <Atari2600> they look like B movies[17:22:37] <DarkUranium> solidfox, LittleBigPlanet for me. And NHL2k7 with my cousins[17:22:51] <DarkUranium> R2robot, that's basically Bethesda Creed, that I've quoted above.[17:22:56] <Atari2600> switch has LittleBigPlanet <3[17:23:03] <DarkUranium> Atari2600, SWITCH HAS LITTLEBIGPLANET?![17:23:36] <solidfox> DarkUranium: nice[17:23:44] <solidfox> Atari2600: ah[17:23:53] <Atari2600> is that is the co-op game with the spaceship?[17:24:00] <Atari2600> perhaps I am mistaken :-/[17:24:04] <Atari2600> checking again[17:24:24] <Atari2600> fuck no[17:24:43] <DarkUranium> :([17:24:48] <Atari2600> it is sony shit. sorry[17:24:55] <Atari2600> sony dislikes nintendo :D[17:25:11] * Atari2600 confused with that game with the tiny space ship and 4 players inside it[17:25:14] <Atari2600> what is the name of this game?[17:26:51] <solidfox> arrow keys dont work brb[17:26:54] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)[17:28:17] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has joined #gamedev[17:28:41] *** unreal <unreal!~unreal@unaffiliated/unreal> has joined #gamedev[17:39:30] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[17:46:53] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[17:54:08] <dostoyevsky> I noticed when I bought hopper.app that fastspring is actually using their own address on the bill, not the address of the developer of hopper.app... So it's like an anonymous bill... is that a feature of payment processors?[17:54:35] *** terminx <terminx!~terminx@209.58.139.15> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[17:59:22] *** macza <macza!~macza@67.231.29.194> has joined #gamedev[17:59:26] <Atari2600> uh[18:19:05] *** aly777 <aly777!~kes777@50-242-177-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)[18:30:14] *** fidasx <fidasx!~fidasx@ppp-94-66-221-79.home.otenet.gr> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[18:34:27] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[18:34:51] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has joined #gamedev[18:35:01] *** terminx <terminx!~terminx@173-16-252-156.client.mchsi.com> has joined #gamedev[18:43:07] *** warweasle <warweasle!user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe26:d1db> has quit IRC (Quit: exit)[18:53:00] *** Serpent7776 <Serpent7776!~Serpent77@90-156-31-193.internetia.net.pl> has joined #gamedev[19:08:56] *** aly777 <aly777!~kes777@2601:148:4200:36c7:13a:f15f:eeb:54a0> has joined #gamedev[19:19:16] <Atari2600> old but gold: http://www.cultdeadcow.com/cDc_files/cDc-0256.txt[19:21:01] *** david2_ <david2_!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has joined #gamedev[19:22:03] *** BlueProtoman <BlueProtoman!~BlueProto@ool-4577fdaf.dyn.optonline.net> has joined #gamedev[19:25:07] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[19:34:36] *** refs <refs!~refs@dslb-178-005-091-189.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[19:39:58] *** grim001 <grim001!~grim001@ip70-173-209-228.lv.lv.cox.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[19:40:18] *** grim001 <grim001!~grim001@ip70-173-209-228.lv.lv.cox.net> has joined #gamedev[19:42:24] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[19:50:11] <solidfox> Atari2600: that was retarded[19:51:09] <solidfox> story summary: guy said he'd eat shit for $50, he did it. and the story never did say he got the $50[19:51:15] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[19:51:52] *** fidasx <fidasx!~fidasx@ppp-94-66-221-79.home.otenet.gr> has joined #gamedev[19:52:20] *** fidasx <fidasx!~fidasx@ppp-94-66-221-79.home.otenet.gr> has quit IRC (Max SendQ exceeded)[19:52:44] *** fidasx <fidasx!~fidasx@ppp-94-66-221-79.home.otenet.gr> has joined #gamedev[20:04:54] *** cheakoirccloud <cheakoirccloud!uid293319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vorsgweckskosssd> has joined #gamedev[20:07:52] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[20:12:58] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[20:15:38] *** xen74 <xen74!~xen74@2001:44b8:2e3:9b00:c0da:9f5:b09f:4db> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[20:18:50] <Atari2600> he got it[20:18:53] <Atari2600> ofc[20:19:06] <Atari2600> but you're bikesheding, as usual[20:30:18] <solidfox> how do you make maps[20:32:14] *** Buoy172 <Buoy172!~Buoy172@95.86.6.187> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[20:32:25] <aeth> solidfox: If he was willing to do that for $50 he was probably willing to do that for $0 and just saw a business opportunity.[20:32:55] *** Buoy172 <Buoy172!~Buoy172@13.94.248.217> has joined #gamedev[20:36:16] <solidfox> yeah[20:36:19] <solidfox> gross lol[20:36:28] *** aly777 <aly777!~kes777@2601:148:4200:36c7:13a:f15f:eeb:54a0> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[20:44:18] <aeth> The Pokémon Eevee's evolution when you give it money: https://i.imgur.com/EfT2Li7.jpg[20:48:37] *** freestyledork is now known as freefork_afk[20:54:31] <pulse> solidfox, to make maps, first you invent the universe[20:54:34] <pulse> and then you make the universe editor[20:54:52] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Quit: My tummy says it's time to sleep Mr. Bubbles.)[20:58:33] <aeth> pulse: Don't do that. Not original enough to sell.[20:59:07] <pulse> :}[20:59:08] <aeth> You were beaten to it, anyway. https://store.steampowered.com/app/230290/Universe_Sandbox/[20:59:48] <pulse> i don't care about VR[20:59:54] <pulse> i actively avoid it[21:00:05] <aeth> It's playable outside of VR.[21:00:13] <pulse> this has existed for a while tho http://spaceengine.org/[21:00:27] <aeth> Only so many ways to destroy the solar system, though. Probably has a lot more playtime in VR[21:00:30] *** Tylak <Tylak!~Tylak@074-135-002-092.res.spectrum.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[21:00:30] <pulse> was pretty cool when i last tested it[21:00:40] <pulse> aeth, it does look nice[21:00:46] <aeth> pulse: Universe Sandbox, as you can see by the trailer, is basically about doing things like throwing Saturn at Jupiter or melting the Earth's oceans[21:01:00] <pulse> sounds nice[21:01:49] <aeth> Usually these sorts of things are about exploring, either in ships or just free roaming[21:02:55] <aeth> Space Engine looks like a more advanced version of Celestia (nothing to do with ponies). https://celestia.space/[21:04:00] <aeth> Apparently, that program is now 18 years old. It was a good way to show off your 3D graphics on your computer more than 10 years ago, though.[21:04:13] <LastTalon> So, not exactly game dev related, more business related, but does anyone know of any significant reasons why one would not want to start an LLC as opposed to a sole proprietorship or a partnership in its place?[21:04:28] <aeth> I wonder if any of these space games have Ultima Thule yet[21:05:43] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has joined #gamedev[21:08:34] <aeth> LastTalon: The stuff on the web that says don't do LLCs are mostly advice aimed at tech startups who want to get investors to eventually get acquired or go public. A game company is not a tech startup. The alternative recommended in those cases is, iirc, a C corporation. Ignore this advice, you are not a startup and you will not become the Google of games.[21:13:18] *** freefork_afk is now known as freestyledork[21:15:09] <aeth> of course, I'm not a lawyer[21:15:22] <aeth> you probably want a lawyer for this.[21:15:38] <chrisf> i forgot that i had LastTalon on ignore[21:15:57] <chrisf> what jurisdiction is LastTalon interested in forming a company in?[21:16:48] <solidfox> ok i need to make a game[21:16:51] <solidfox> hmm[21:16:55] <solidfox> need an idea[21:17:05] <solidfox> maybe a space game[21:17:11] <solidfox> errybody loves space[21:17:18] <solidfox> PEW PEW[21:17:19] <solidfox> yeah[21:17:46] <solidfox> starfox 3[21:17:49] <aeth> Space games are good because they make many simplifying assumptions. Well, they're simpler as long as you don't actually have the truly massive scale space actually has.[21:18:07] <chrisf> massive scale is a fairly minor problem[21:18:12] <solidfox> starfox 2 is really impressive for a snes 3d game[21:18:19] <solidfox> the original starfox was frustrating[21:18:56] <chrisf> as long as you deal with it very early[21:19:22] <aeth> Think about space, assuming you're in space the whole time and don't have things like entering planets from space. It's mostly empty. This is great. Now you rarely have to worry about collision, for instance.[21:21:38] <solidfox> space hacking war inter-universe battle royale game with magic powers[21:22:40] <solidfox> its the year 3000, fusion energy has been developed and scientist also found a way to enter a black hole without getting torn apart, so we can warp to other universes inside the black hole[21:23:03] <solidfox> um[21:23:19] <aeth> Don't have black holes in your game. You just increased your required budget 100x.[21:23:24] <aeth> Use a simpler to implement FTL method.[21:23:48] <solidfox> wut, its a black circle on the screen with a bit of a warped effect around it[21:24:20] <solidfox> its like portals in crash bandicoot or tye the tazmainian tiger[21:25:34] <solidfox> hey what if black hole evaporation is like the heat death of the universe inside it[21:25:44] *** batman_nair <batman_nair!~batman_na@111.92.77.160> has joined #gamedev[21:25:49] <solidfox> ok no more space games. i cant do anything[21:26:13] <aeth> Well, I mean, you can have a poorly implemented black hole, but if you're going to put them in your game they should be visually and mechanically impressive.[21:28:01] <solidfox> ok[21:28:42] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125.238.72.168> has joined #gamedev[21:28:42] <solidfox> cloning unreal engine now..[21:28:47] <solidfox> gonna build on linux[21:33:50] <chrisf> your game idea was to build UE from source?[21:34:14] <aeth> Well, at least that has a decent length of playtime.[21:34:52] <chrisf> potential for infinite replayability and easy multiple endings[21:35:00] <chrisf> he's onto something[21:36:17] <solidfox> lol ok[21:36:23] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[21:36:32] <DarkUranium> solidfox, spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace[21:37:00] <aeth> too late, all space ideas have already been implemented as a mod to Kerbal Space Program[21:39:18] <chrisf> funny story: i was in a game brainstorming session about 2y before KSP appeared, and someone proposed something that would have ended up much like KSP. i accidentally squashed it with concerns about whether we could make it fun for non-rocket-scientists[21:40:05] <aeth> To be fair, non-rocket-scientists playing KSP have fun a completely different way. Either they use MechJeb to actually get into space or they just have fun watching their rockets fail horribly again and again.[21:40:29] <aeth> If your approach wasn't cartoony failure probably wouldn't have been fun[21:40:36] <chrisf> it would have been[21:41:00] <aeth> should have patented the idea, then[21:41:00] <chrisf> so, missed opportunity[21:41:18] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)[21:41:31] <aeth> It has been a long enough time that you could probably make a new rocket game.[21:41:54] <aeth> You could do things that KSP couldn't do without KSP 2 since you could have much higher system requirements.[21:42:17] <aeth> (Well, higher than stock KSP. Modded KSP can easily go above 10 GB RAM and use 100% of 2 cores)[21:43:45] <DarkUranium> therein lies the problem, games *still* can't take advantage of multi-core properly.[21:44:56] <aeth> KSP is 2011 initial release, 2013 early access release, 2015 finished PC release. It also uses Unity, which is obviously not designed specifically for realistic space sims.[21:44:56] <chrisf> games on old unity sure cant[21:46:24] <aeth> You could write a new game designed so that it can scale up to using the Ryzen Threadripper 2990WX 32 (64) core (thread) CPU released last August. A game that had its first public release in 2011 isn't going to be written in that way.[21:47:19] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[21:49:05] <aeth> You also have the benefit of coming after KSP, so you can see which mods are extremely popular. You can then mine that for ideas as to what to include in the base game of your rocket game. e.g. life support and autopilot[21:49:49] <aeth> Mandatory mods aren't going to be the best for performance so you could probably beat KSP in performance while doing more.[21:52:29] <aeth> You could also use a radically different approach for large spacecraft/aircraft that's less modular and so probably more performant. KSP is designed for rocket stages. Large spacecraft/aircraft are dozens/hundreds of parts when you could do it differently because the engine wasn't made for that. You'd give people less freedom in body/wing design that way, though.[21:52:50] <aeth> s/the engine/the game/[21:54:58] <chrisf> one could also do a modular implementation that doesnt suck.[21:55:13] <aeth> well it would be more like one frame, and then insert modules into that frame[21:56:06] <aeth> KSP also sort of has part scaling now, at least in most popular mods, where you can take one part and scale its length in the design phase. Well, you could really run with that idea.[21:56:16] <chrisf> most of ksp's problems arent intrinsic[21:57:20] <solidfox> finally building unreal engine[21:57:28] <solidfox> lots of pre-build time spent![21:57:48] <aeth> 15:28:42 -> 15:57:20[21:57:57] <aeth> Now let's see how long it takes for your next update to be posted here.[21:58:34] <chrisf> but the moment has passed. yes, it's fairly straightforward to build a slightly better mousetrap at this point.[21:59:04] <solidfox> they only started 4 parallel jobs.. my cpu can easily do like 12 pretty sure[21:59:30] <solidfox> ooh i have a game idea[21:59:34] <solidfox> your level is a house[21:59:37] <solidfox> and there are mice in the house[21:59:45] <solidfox> and you need to set traps up to catch the mice![22:00:03] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125.238.72.168> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[22:00:10] <solidfox> ok gonna take another nap[22:00:52] <aeth> chrisf: in the all daily players graph there's a 2015 peak at 18k-19k or so (leaving Early Access?) and then a steady 5kish since then. https://steamdb.info/app/220200/graphs/[22:01:21] <aeth> chrisf: KSP is far from a perfect execution on the idea, especially since it requires 80+ mods to "fix" the game, which will then, as I said, be about 10 GB RAM.[22:01:31] <aeth> Definitely room for a well-polished competitor to Fortnite KSP's PUBG[22:02:07] <aeth> Just having built-in multiplayer (very hard, especially if you have time warp mechanics like KSP) would put a new rocket game on another tier.[22:06:20] <aeth> I'd start with a much simpler build-a-vehicle game, though. Perhaps trains.[22:07:18] *** mandeep <mandeep!mandeep@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/mandeepb> has joined #gamedev[22:11:44] *** refs <refs!~refs@dslb-178-005-091-189.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined #gamedev[22:15:25] <solidfox> debating on whther i should ctrl-c and specify how many parallel make jobs i want to run..[22:18:11] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has quit IRC (Quit: http://www.shlomifish.org/ ; Some people grow older and wiser. Not I. I grow older and more foolish.)[22:19:12] <solidfox> omg lol the number of total jobs is going up xD[22:19:25] <solidfox> [9/1686] Compile Module.Core.9_of_10.cpp[22:21:19] *** rtypo <rtypo!~alex@unaffiliated/rtypo> has joined #gamedev[22:25:13] <aeth> solidfox: you're compiling C++, you should have done MAX or MAX - 1 for your compilation. Might be too late to save time now[22:26:10] *** DaScoot <DaScoot!~Scooter@static-24-153-33-9.cpe.metrocast.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Bye)[22:29:06] *** mr_lou <mr_lou!~misthalos@085083077157.dynamic.telenor.dk> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[22:29:25] <solidfox> aeth: cpu is already at 100%[22:29:39] <solidfox> im not sure. i thought i could do 12 jobs but maybe 4 really is the limit[22:29:56] <solidfox> im gonna close chrome[22:34:43] <aeth> solidfox: afaik 100% usually means at least one core is at 100% but you should be looking at thread utilization, e.g. the bars at the top of htop[22:35:06] <aeth> Not sure about UE, but with C++ you can easilly get 100% on everything available for almost the entire duration[22:35:16] <aeth> one of those very parallel things[22:37:13] <chrisf> their build system is probably not completely incompetent[22:40:42] <solidfox> chrisf: do you think they chose 4 jobs carefully[22:43:05] <solidfox> aeth: i've got 4 bars that are each 100%[22:43:22] <aeth> And how many empty bars?[22:43:29] <solidfox> 0[22:43:46] <aeth> I thought you could do 12 :-p[22:43:57] <solidfox> swap is empty[22:44:13] <solidfox> aeth: :v[22:44:18] <solidfox> guess not heh[22:44:33] <LastTalon> chrisf, I'm more concerned with the differences in general, but personally it would most likely be game dev or general softwar dev in the US.[22:46:03] <aeth> I'm very concerned about softwar[22:46:06] <LastTalon> Like other than the cost of starting one is there even a downside?[22:46:17] <LastTalon> The soft wars.[22:48:03] <solidfox> do you even need to register a company to make software or games and sell it?[22:48:10] <LastTalon> No.[22:48:12] <solidfox> if so im gonna need to make one. maybe a corporation[22:48:16] <solidfox> ah ok[22:48:54] <LastTalon> There are things you'll need to do financially though.[22:48:56] <solidfox> yes i can say im driving to walmart to buy the team supplies and food, and take it off my taxes owed[22:49:02] <LastTalon> Gotta pay taxes on that shit.[22:49:26] <LastTalon> Also employees and payroll are still a thing.[22:49:40] <solidfox> yes well without a corporation i cant make arbitrary daily activities tax deductible[22:50:09] <LastTalon> Sure you can.[22:50:27] <LastTalon> As a sole proprietorship or partnership[22:50:29] <solidfox> yes but dont inidividualy normally take the standard deduction[22:51:00] <LastTalon> If you're making enough money as a private business you might be better off taking other deductions.[22:51:08] <LastTalon> It depends on your situation.[22:52:09] <LastTalon> If you were really interested in having separate taxes though, yes you'd want a corporation.[22:52:46] <LastTalon> I'd still like to know what other than the cost of registering an LLC is the disadvantage though.[22:53:54] <LastTalon> Like, why as a sole proprietor would I not always desire to either become an LLC or a Corp?[22:54:31] <solidfox> just flip it. you know the theory now flip it and put it into practice. bottom up[22:55:14] <LastTalon> In practice it doesn't really change afaik[22:55:24] <solidfox> brb[22:55:53] *** Serpent7776 <Serpent7776!~Serpent77@90-156-31-193.internetia.net.pl> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[22:59:41] <LastTalon> Someone should make KSP, but like DF.[23:01:44] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has joined #gamedev[23:02:23] *** Tylak <Tylak!~Tylak@074-135-002-092.res.spectrum.com> has joined #gamedev[23:05:38] *** fidasx <fidasx!~fidasx@ppp-94-66-221-79.home.otenet.gr> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[23:05:57] <DarkUranium> LastTalon, with hidden fun stuff?[23:06:17] <LastTalon> Yes. All games should be fun.[23:06:22] <LastTalon> :D[23:07:26] *** Donitzo <Donitzo!~Donitzo@85-156-203-108.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[23:08:59] *** HZun <HZun!~HZun@0x3ec721e2.osd.customer.dk.telia.net> has joined #gamedev[23:18:15] <chrisf> 'KSP but like DF' is rocket science[23:21:02] <aeth> just play KSP with Kerbal permadeath on and space station, life support, and planetary colonization mods.[23:21:19] <aeth> Then you can lose all of your kerbals[23:22:27] *** RazielXYZ <RazielXYZ!~Raziel@unaffiliated/raziel> has joined #gamedev[23:22:31] <chrisf> incidentally: mechjeb's a garbage autopilot[23:23:11] <chrisf> far worse than real flight software from the 60s[23:24:09] <chrisf> but such are things that dont have to work..[23:25:11] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[23:25:27] *** RazielZ <RazielZ!~Raziel@unaffiliated/raziel> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[23:25:59] <aeth> Fun fact: Yuri Gagarin had no control over Vostok 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostok_1#Automatic_control[23:27:19] *** pulse <pulse!~pulse@unaffiliated/pulse> has quit IRC (Quit: pulse)[23:30:56] <solidfox> [879/1686] Compile Module.MRMesh.cpp[23:31:48] <chrisf> LastTalon: downside should be all paperwork[23:31:58] *** mandeep <mandeep!mandeep@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/mandeepb> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[23:34:38] <LastTalon> chrisf, it doesn't seem like too much paperwork though.[23:34:49] <LastTalon> So its just like... laziness basically?[23:34:55] *** RandomCouch <RandomCouch!~RandomSof@207.219.200.115> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[23:35:14] <LastTalon> I can get behind that. I'm lazy. I procrastinate.[23:35:18] <aeth> Can you give yourself any title you want? If you can, the upside will be the title "Supreme Galactic Emperor" on your business card[23:35:23] <chrisf> perhaps running a business isn't for you.[23:36:15] <chrisf> aeth: i can put `Supreme Galactic Emperor` on my business card anyway[23:36:24] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[23:36:35] <aeth> and your linked in, obviously[23:36:52] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has joined #gamedev[23:37:09] <aeth> Until one day you get an email from a recruiter for the (larger than ours) Andromeda Galaxy saying there's an open position you're qualified for...[23:38:51] *** batman_nair <batman_nair!~batman_na@111.92.77.160> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[23:39:52] *** mandeep <mandeep!mandeep@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/mandeepb> has joined #gamedev[23:45:47] *** Beliar <Beliar!~Beliar@2a02:8108:9640:6c42:c965:18cb:bc98:ee11> has quit IRC (Quit: The only real mistake is the one from which we learn nothing)[23:53:26] *** [Relic] <[Relic]!~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:f05b:eb5d:22cf:9d5d> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[23:56:12] *** Donitzo <Donitzo!~Donitzo@85-156-203-108.elisa-laajakaista.fi> has joined #gamedev[23:56:46] <solidfox> wouldnt it take hundreds of years to receive a message from that galaxy[23:58:38] <aeth> with known physics, millions[23:58:54] <aeth> but give it billions of years and your estimate of hundreds will be correct