January 7, 2019 
< | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | >
January 7, 2019 [00:09:14] *** atomekk <atomekk!~atomekk@unaffiliated/atomekk> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:19:08] *** NiniGeo2 <NiniGeo2!~NiniGeo2@c-73-178-72-18.hsd1.nj.comcast.net> has joined #gamedev[00:19:23] *** pulse <pulse!~pulse@unaffiliated/pulse> has joined #gamedev[00:24:04] *** xrash <xrash!~xrash@177.102.209.30> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[00:29:11] *** nadir <nadir!uid134094@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-smawwblfejgmdfnc> has joined #gamedev[00:36:27] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has joined #gamedev[00:55:59] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[01:00:47] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[01:05:07] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[01:34:10] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[01:35:06] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[01:35:08] *** ^|SnIpeR|^ <^|SnIpeR|^!~BIeh@cpe-120-146-186-20.static.qld.bigpond.net.au> has quit IRC (Quit: ^|SnIpeR|^)[01:39:41] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has joined #gamedev[02:16:57] *** david2 <david2!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has joined #gamedev[02:25:00] *** lordkryss <lordkryss!uid25759@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfbatosulbwiudgr> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[02:34:43] *** Buoy172 <Buoy172!~Buoy172@95.86.6.187> has joined #gamedev[02:40:30] *** david2 <david2!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)[02:58:25] *** Groogy <Groogy!~Groogy@90-227-38-205-no61.tbcn.telia.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[03:15:08] <pulse> booooooooooooooooooring[03:16:28] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[03:18:36] *** code_zombie <code_zombie!~code_zomb@2605:a601:aa1:da00:50db:8ff8:a904:c985> has joined #gamedev[03:28:21] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has joined #gamedev[03:30:42] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[03:35:56] <solidfox> can i import a mesh into unity somehow[03:37:49] <solidfox> found it on g00gle[03:38:07] *** xrash <xrash!~xrash@189.78.182.121> has joined #gamedev[03:38:15] *** xrash <xrash!~xrash@189.78.182.121> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[03:38:45] *** xrash <xrash!~xrash@189.78.182.121> has joined #gamedev[03:39:01] *** xrash <xrash!~xrash@189.78.182.121> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[03:39:17] *** Buoy172 <Buoy172!~Buoy172@95.86.6.187> has quit IRC ()[03:39:29] *** xrash <xrash!~xrash@189.78.182.121> has joined #gamedev[03:43:16] * baudejogos slaps pulec[03:43:19] * baudejogos slaps pulse[03:44:40] * pulse goes into karate stance, blocking the slap[03:44:56] * pulse flies into the air like batman[03:50:36] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[03:52:49] <Tylak> heeeey[03:52:57] <pulse> ohayu[03:52:59] <Tylak> how's it going?[03:53:03] <pulse> GREAT[03:53:19] <pulse> and thou[03:53:34] <Tylak> Pretty awesome on my end[03:53:48] <Tylak> tired for tonight tho[03:54:19] <Tylak> I did cutscene scripting again today[03:54:40] <Tylak> trouble with the game engine, for NPC movement and dialog system[03:55:03] <pulse> noice[03:55:27] <pulse> well trouble is half the fun[03:55:59] <Tylak> sure, as a designer I plan half my day on sciprting/implementation and the other half on documenting issues so they can be fixed[03:56:25] <Tylak> *scripting[03:57:49] <Tylak> and scripting a 2 minute sequence means I get to spend 2 minutes, 20 times an hour, playing the same part :|[04:00:03] <pulse> wonders of being a dev[04:00:56] <pulse> that's why you need testers, after the 10 thousandth time you experience the same thing you get desensitized to it[04:01:13] <pulse> same problem with making music[04:01:37] <pulse> listen to the same 3 seconds for a week and you'll have no idea what you're even doing anymore, lol[04:08:37] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[04:08:38] <solidfox> i created a mesh with a slightly transparent material[04:08:55] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[04:08:58] <solidfox> but for some reason in unity one of the faces doesnt display, does anyone know what might be going on?[04:09:16] <solidfox> oh the mesh was created in blender[04:09:26] <solidfox> i exported to .obj file[04:15:30] *** terminx <terminx!~terminx@209.58.139.15> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)[04:17:16] <pulse> oh man i'm such a dumbass ... i was struggling for 20 minutes with a function that handles a mouseover event trying to figure out why the first parameter isn't being registered[04:17:24] <pulse> then i realized the first param is always injected by the event handler itself[04:17:35] <pulse> solidfox, sry no clue about unity[04:17:39] <solidfox> ok[04:17:44] <solidfox> yes 1 face is just missing[04:22:58] <baudejogos> pulse: what language?[04:26:45] <pulse> baudejogos, JS[04:27:04] <pulse> i have this function that calls a mouseover handler but it requires an extra param[04:27:16] <pulse> i was feeding that as the first param, not realizing the first param is the event message[04:27:25] <pulse> sometimes you can go crazy from these things[04:27:36] <pulse> usually it's something like function mouseOver(e) {...}[04:27:37] <pulse> or something[04:27:57] <pulse> so now i just call it with (null, param) since i don't need the event msg[04:30:34] <pulse> i should say the function is calling the mouseover manually as opposed to there actually being a mouse over event :D[04:30:47] <pulse> so it can be called from 2 places, etc[04:31:04] <pulse> the design kinda sucks but it's a work project so who cares[04:42:40] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)[04:49:11] <baudejogos> heh[04:49:17] <baudejogos> js screws you over[04:50:27] <pulse> nah, i'm just an idiot, lol[04:50:54] <pulse> it's one of those things where you can see you wrote the code correctly and you spend 20 minutes trying to figure out why in the world it won't work[04:51:04] <pulse> and then you realize you forgot about something trivial[04:51:42] <pulse> which usually happens at the point where you start logging everything[04:55:08] *** babuloseo <babuloseo!~babuloseo@unaffiliated/babuloseo> has quit IRC (Quit: gotta move asap)[04:59:58] *** terminx <terminx!~terminx@209.58.139.15> has joined #gamedev[05:01:00] <baudejogos> :) js is weakly typed and easy to make mistakes[05:02:01] *** mandeep <mandeep!mandeep@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/mandeepb> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[05:06:58] *** terminx <terminx!~terminx@209.58.139.15> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[05:08:08] <solidfox> yes the issue with becoming a self-made game maker is that it requires an in-depth knolwdge of so much stuff[05:08:32] <solidfox> like what all these knobs, switches, buttons im adjusting do in blender[05:08:55] <solidfox> like "fresnel" idk it looks cool, but it has a strange side effect that isnt cool[05:22:22] <pulse> worst of all is people think it's so easy[05:22:23] <pulse> :D[05:22:31] <pulse> they have no idea do they[05:24:08] <solidfox> yes someone in here just said it would be easy earlier[05:24:33] <solidfox> something like "once you know how to do FSM and opengl making games is easy"[05:24:43] <pulse> lol[05:30:48] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)[05:31:24] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: it really is easy-peasy.. just not sure what the Flying Spaghetti Monster has to do with this[05:32:12] <pulse> he just quit :P[05:32:38] <dostoyevsky> oh, the conspiracy[05:32:43] <pulse> i need to get super hyped for game dev this year[05:32:52] <pulse> i need to finish my damn games[05:32:59] <pulse> or i'll go mad[05:34:04] <pulse> i need a better system, i suck at organizing things that aren't code[05:34:04] <dostoyevsky> pulse: what's still missing until you can release?[05:34:14] <pulse> i need like a story board and all that high level stuff[05:34:23] <pulse> dostoyevsky, everything[05:34:33] <pulse> i have some spritework done, i have the base code done[05:34:40] <pulse> i have a few tracks for music[05:35:00] <pulse> doesn't help i'm working on 2 games at the same time[05:35:10] <pulse> i probably need to focus on one and then another after the first is finished[05:36:15] *** terminx <terminx!~terminx@209.58.139.15> has joined #gamedev[05:39:01] <pulse> the idea is the first one is a practice run and i'll release it completely for free[05:39:07] <pulse> 2nd one i'd like to put on steam[05:39:09] <baudejogos> deving games is a great programming exercise[05:39:20] <pulse> yeah[05:39:25] <baudejogos> you need to employ a lot of techniques and know some cs theory[05:39:32] <pulse> i enjoy the programming part a lot actually[05:39:38] <baudejogos> ^yup[05:39:39] <pulse> and designing the whole system[05:39:50] <pulse> but pixel work is ... somewhat akin to torture[05:39:53] <pulse> not that it can't be fun[05:39:58] <pulse> but it's nowhere near as fun[05:39:59] <baudejogos> I hate the part of making the art and designing the levels :([05:40:01] <pulse> for me at least[05:40:06] <pulse> i love designing levels[05:40:06] <baudejogos> my bother was the good one for these things[05:40:13] <baudejogos> a beautiful creative mind[05:40:15] <baudejogos> *brother[05:40:17] <pulse> i've always liked level work[05:40:34] <dostoyevsky> shouldn't one generally start with writing the level editor before writing the game?[05:40:47] <pulse> dostoyevsky, i used to do that, now i just use tiled[05:41:02] <pulse> baudejogos, was or is[05:41:22] <pulse> dostoyevsky, although for my 2nd game i may consider writing an editor too[05:41:28] <pulse> as it may be a bit more complex than what tiled offers[05:42:02] <dostoyevsky> I need to get my animations from blender working in webgl, wish me luck :)[05:42:07] <pulse> gl[05:43:23] <pulse> i gotta get a work project done[05:43:27] <pulse> and it's someone else's code[05:43:52] <pulse> not fun[05:44:34] <pulse> considering just writing everything from scratch because it's so horrible[05:52:02] <baudejogos> pulse: was :((((((([05:52:27] <pulse> baudejogos, oh crap, so sorry[05:52:30] <pulse> :([05:52:40] <baudejogos> it is okay. he passed away in 2011[05:52:48] <baudejogos> he loved to draw the sprites for me[05:52:59] <baudejogos> he could do them in minutes[05:53:07] <pulse> it sucks to lose a family member[05:53:09] <baudejogos> click click click. done[05:53:17] <baudejogos> that's why I moved to US[05:53:21] <pulse> i've been through it 4 years ago, lost my dad[05:53:24] <baudejogos> :~([05:53:32] <pulse> :([05:53:39] <baudejogos> my mom is pretty old now. I will have to face this shit again sometime soon[05:53:51] *** [Relic] <[Relic]!~Relic]@2602:306:33a3:6d30:e572:1635:26f8:744b> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[05:53:54] <pulse> life just sucks sometimes[05:54:10] <baudejogos> she did not help me with my games, though :P only with my tummy[05:54:18] <pulse> :)[05:54:23] <baudejogos> yummy yummy, my mom's pastries in my tummy[05:54:43] <baudejogos> I think good creative minds are a treasure to find, these days[05:55:11] <pulse> it takes a certain mindset[05:55:18] <baudejogos> I gonna finish my (clony) games and use them as advertising to lure some good game creators to my side[05:55:19] <pulse> most people live a go-go lifestyle[05:55:25] <pulse> and it's hard to be creative with that mindset[05:55:28] <baudejogos> yeah[05:55:46] <baudejogos> so that is the curious thing. my brother was a mixture of hippie with punk[05:55:51] <baudejogos> super go go go[05:56:05] <pulse> sometimes people are just super talented and can do it regardless[05:56:09] <pulse> i know i can't[05:56:19] <pulse> ideally i'd disconnect from the internet for a year[05:56:24] <pulse> since it takes my attention away so damn fast[05:56:26] *** Tylak <Tylak!~Tylak@074-135-002-092.res.spectrum.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)[05:56:32] <baudejogos> but for some reason, he could create things when he just wanted to. we drew comic books together and he always came up with the better stories and jokes[05:56:57] <baudejogos> pulse: yeah! I am pretty good with analytical work, project design, code monkey, refactoring, etc.[05:57:01] <baudejogos> because NADD[05:57:15] <baudejogos> but when I have to create a text, documents, etc., the Internet screws me over[05:57:31] <pulse> i spent probably 5 or so hours on youtube today[05:57:37] <pulse> and 2 hours actually doing stuff i care about[05:57:48] <pulse> it's wrong[05:57:54] <pulse> my discipline is non existent[05:57:57] <baudejogos> hehe I was watching a video of a Macintosh version of Prince of Persia right now (in the 2nd monitor)[05:57:57] <pulse> :/[05:58:07] <pulse> the development process one?[05:58:22] <baudejogos> nah! just a demo of the game. I only played the MS-DOS version (a shit ton of times)[05:58:31] <baudejogos> I was comparing both versions[05:58:35] <pulse> yeah i did too, as a kid[05:58:43] <pulse> i didn't even know back then there was any other versions, lol[05:58:44] <baudejogos> PoP was amazing[05:58:47] <pulse> yep[05:58:48] <baudejogos> yeah. me too[05:59:09] <baudejogos> https://youtu.be/zjR_AhxPnVM?t=150[05:59:10] <pulse> i played it on a b&w monitor which we had at home[05:59:28] <pulse> and my cousin had a color monitor and every time i came to visit i got to experience it in color[05:59:31] <pulse> i thought it was the best thing ever[05:59:31] <baudejogos> heh, I played on a green one during high school[05:59:44] <baudejogos> it took me a while to see a VGA monitor[05:59:44] <pulse> wow those are some sweet graphics[06:00:34] <baudejogos> one of my high school friends (who I lucked out to live nearby here in America) had a VGA monitor. we all envied him[06:00:53] <baudejogos> we played Countdown there[06:01:03] <pulse> how did he manage to port that game to all those systems[06:01:15] <baudejogos> pulse: Broderbund ftw[06:02:08] <pulse> i imagine porting back then was a pain in the arse[06:02:32] <baudejogos> hiring coders to work like in Bandersnatch :D[06:03:04] <pulse> game wasn't very technically complex though, so that probably helped[06:03:23] <baudejogos> nah! the rotoscopy did most of the job already[06:03:23] <pulse> it's all just static tiles that change[06:03:27] <baudejogos> yeah[06:03:37] <pulse> still mighty impressive[06:04:09] <pulse> i think the NES port had completely different level design,too[06:04:33] <pulse> or was it sega[06:04:33] <pulse> idk[06:04:46] <pulse> SNES probably actually[06:05:03] <pulse> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZtkPZih-3s[06:05:23] <pulse> different levels, different gprahics, different music[06:05:32] <pulse> but still more or less the same game[06:05:45] <pulse> had some unique levels too[06:05:50] <pulse> i never played through it, i may some day[06:06:50] *** RoadKillGrill <RoadKillGrill!~RoadKillG@cpe-24-166-114-198.neo.res.rr.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[06:06:55] <baudejogos> NES and SNES PoP versions should be burnt with fire :D[06:07:07] <pulse> are they bad? :p[06:07:11] <pulse> they look interesting[06:07:25] <baudejogos> yuck :([06:07:27] <baudejogos> brb[06:07:39] <pulse> i'm a PC guy through and through so i'm only casually familiar with NES/SNES[06:12:41] *** Beliar <Beliar!~Beliar@2a02:8108:9640:6c42:8d88:5d77:64e1:e7c8> has joined #gamedev[06:13:21] <pulse> oh how i hate working through other people's code[06:13:24] <pulse> bane of my existence[06:14:55] *** refs <refs!~refs@dslb-094-222-031-150.094.222.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has quit IRC (Quit: refs)[06:17:10] *** mr_lou <mr_lou!~misthalos@085083077157.dynamic.telenor.dk> has joined #gamedev[06:26:18] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has joined #gamedev[06:35:33] *** pulse <pulse!~pulse@unaffiliated/pulse> has quit IRC (Quit: pulse)[06:38:17] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[06:45:46] *** NiniGeo2 <NiniGeo2!~NiniGeo2@c-73-178-72-18.hsd1.nj.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Quit: G'nini everyone! :D)[06:49:53] *** code_zombie <code_zombie!~code_zomb@2605:a601:aa1:da00:50db:8ff8:a904:c985> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[06:53:30] *** zeduckmaster <zeduckmaster!~zeduckmas@85.106.1.181> has joined #gamedev[07:05:39] *** nadir <nadir!uid134094@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-smawwblfejgmdfnc> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[07:12:25] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[07:17:53] *** mr_lou <mr_lou!~misthalos@085083077157.dynamic.telenor.dk> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[07:26:28] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[07:29:11] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!jprajzne@nat/redhat/x-fvutknqfzrnsthze> has joined #gamedev[07:29:55] *** R2robot <R2robot!~R2robot@unaffiliated/r2ro> has joined #gamedev[07:42:34] *** mobile_c <mobile_c!~mobile_c@cpe-172-192-134-25.qld.foxtel.net.au> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[07:44:24] *** mobile_c <mobile_c!~mobile_c@cpe-172-192-134-25.qld.foxtel.net.au> has joined #gamedev[07:47:35] *** xrash <xrash!~xrash@189.78.182.121> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[07:50:48] <DnzAtWrk> and back to work[07:57:23] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[08:08:09] <R2robot> FH[08:08:11] <R2robot> err[08:08:12] <R2robot> F[08:09:54] *** batman_nair <batman_nair!~batman_na@111.92.77.160> has joined #gamedev[08:13:41] <jprajzne> hi[08:14:04] <jprajzne> R2robot: haven't recorded anything yet for past week[08:14:28] <R2robot> shame![08:14:33] <R2robot> :P[08:14:42] <jprajzne> :))[08:14:43] <jprajzne> true[08:14:45] <jprajzne> :)[08:17:17] <R2robot> i've been meaning to record something myself[08:17:36] <R2robot> well technically not record, but make something with a tracker.. for practice[08:17:43] <R2robot> soon(tm)[08:18:24] <jprajzne> great! :)[08:25:28] *** gogoprog <gogoprog!~gogoprog@2a02:a03f:44f0:6600:71a2:8b47:f039:570d> has joined #gamedev[08:54:31] *** stefkos <stefkos!~Pawel@79.184.76.92.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl> has joined #gamedev[09:07:56] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[09:13:09] *** notus <notus!uid244649@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xaluehaioqtsxkdj> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[09:15:31] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Quit: My tummy says it's time to sleep Mr. Bubbles.)[09:16:39] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[09:17:41] *** fidasx <fidasx!~fidasx@ppp-94-66-221-79.home.otenet.gr> has joined #gamedev[09:31:31] *** mr_lou <mr_lou!~misthalos@085083077157.dynamic.telenor.dk> has joined #gamedev[09:48:37] <DnzAtWrk> oh no, the crow is back[09:48:44] *** krychu_ <krychu_!~krychu@213.242.84.161> has joined #gamedev[09:48:45] <DnzAtWrk> staring at me through the window[09:49:23] <DnzAtWrk> well, it's a dove not a crow[09:51:25] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has joined #gamedev[09:53:29] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[09:54:11] <jprajzne> pity, i hoped for e. a. poe-like story, DnzAtWrk[09:54:17] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has joined #gamedev[09:54:34] <DnzAtWrk> "Why aren't you working", quote the Raven[10:00:54] *** krychu <krychu!~krychu@2a02:1205:505c:2ab0:258d:fcd0:624a:af82> has quit IRC (Quit: krychu)[10:04:36] <R2robot> maybe it's a Jackdaw[10:04:53] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[10:10:13] *** david2 <david2!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has joined #gamedev[10:14:47] *** david2 <david2!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[10:19:27] *** BPL <BPL!~BPL@102.56.27.77.dynamic.reverse-mundo-r.com> has joined #gamedev[10:21:58] <BPL> Hello guys, in 3dsmax when pressing "Alt+MMB" you'll spawn an action called "Arc Rotate", also known as orbit... I was wondering how's that implemented. So far i was looking at this 1) http://nehe.gamedev.net/tutorial/arcball_rotation/19003/ and this 2) https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/OpenGL_Programming/Modern_OpenGL_Tutorial_Arcball ... but maybe someone here could explain me how 3dsmax does it? Thx[10:26:47] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[10:33:07] *** krychu <krychu!~krychu@2a02:1205:505c:2ab0:cdf7:6cdb:981f:1305> has joined #gamedev[10:33:37] *** fidasx <fidasx!~fidasx@ppp-94-66-221-79.home.otenet.gr> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[10:35:13] <R2robot> did you try it?[10:36:35] <jprajzne> should be just mouse picking, no?[10:38:19] <BPL> i was going to try now... in any case, i'd like to achieve exactly the same behaviour of max, when you're panning (MMB) you suddenly can switch to arcball camera rotation by pressing alt or coming back to panning if still holding MMB and releasing alt[10:39:00] <BPL> both actions will allow you to have a really nice control about which elements you want to display on the screen[10:40:09] *** krychu_ <krychu_!~krychu@213.242.84.161> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[10:42:27] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined #gamedev[10:45:47] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[11:12:40] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[11:46:50] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[11:48:06] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[11:53:24] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)[12:17:13] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has joined #gamedev[12:24:23] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[13:05:18] <dostoyevsky> Is that true for Unity3d? https://i.redd.it/m0lg6jzmuy821.jpg[13:08:22] <rts-sander> omg I'm so fucked I click on that image, thought lol and I was about to share that same image in here[13:08:55] <dostoyevsky> omg![13:09:00] <rts-sander> wait I this isn't ##programming, phew[13:09:07] <dostoyevsky> https://i.redd.it/m0lg6jzmuy821.jpg[13:13:08] *** backthen <backthen!~backthen@c-76-103-179-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> has joined #gamedev[13:23:45] *** pavonia <pavonia!~user@unaffiliated/siracusa> has joined #gamedev[13:32:59] *** xen74 <xen74!~xen74@2001:44b8:2e3:9b00:7506:9271:8375:b7de> has joined #gamedev[13:42:20] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[13:48:39] *** david2 <david2!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has joined #gamedev[13:51:40] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)[13:53:07] *** david2 <david2!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[13:53:18] *** pulse <pulse!~pulse@unaffiliated/pulse> has joined #gamedev[13:57:24] *** batman_nair <batman_nair!~batman_na@111.92.77.160> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[14:00:55] <brainzap> reposters[14:11:45] <pulse> morning[14:12:04] <R2robot> Jackdaw[14:12:10] <jprajzne> hi pulse[14:12:15] <brainzap> but is already 2 pm[14:12:28] <pulse> i don't argue with my body :}[14:12:29] <jprajzne> brainzap: damn europe[14:12:29] <backthen> 5am[14:12:46] <R2robot> 7:12AM[14:12:50] <pulse> i had the weridest dreams[14:12:50] <jprajzne> 14:12[14:12:52] <jprajzne> pm[14:13:04] <pulse> worst part about this whole quitting smoking business is[14:13:05] <R2robot> there is no 14 am :P[14:13:09] <pulse> extremely vivid weird-ass dreams[14:13:12] <pulse> every. damn. night[14:13:21] <brainzap> its called REM rebound[14:13:28] <jprajzne> R2robot: 2:12pm i wanted to write[14:13:32] <R2robot> :D[14:13:41] * pulse googles REM rebound[14:13:50] <jprajzne> confused the italian w/ the rest :))[14:14:08] <R2robot> "rebound" is REM's latest album[14:14:24] <R2robot> Narrator: no it isn't[14:16:04] *** refs <refs!~refs@dslb-178-005-091-189.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined #gamedev[14:16:05] <jprajzne> pulse: any feedback for me on the guitar book, please?[14:16:11] <jprajzne> or questions[14:16:26] <pulse> i wrote down some of what i dreamt: speakers with legs running across a hill like in that scene from monty python, a bathroom full of hornets that i was wondering if i was hallucinating or not, a house that was a huge hole in the ground with a couch in it and a techno party tent next to it, a dentist that had to soften me by beating me on my back, a car that had weird compartments everywhere and could fly, a group of people that put in signs into the[14:16:26] <pulse> ground and they acted as lure for aliens[14:16:45] <pulse> jprajzne, haven't looked into it yet, sorry[14:17:08] <pulse> jprajzne, i just went through it quickly[14:17:14] <jprajzne> no problem :) wish i had such surreal dreams[14:17:23] <brainzap> ugh people that tell you their dreams[14:17:24] <pulse> would be cool if you used a bit of HTML5 as opposed to ascii :D that was my only thought[14:17:33] <pulse> jprajzne, you really don't[14:17:36] <jprajzne> there's a fb group, brainzap[14:17:48] <pulse> it was a half-nightmare[14:17:54] <pulse> not really a full blown one, just psychotic as fuck[14:18:01] <jprajzne> yeah, it sounds like :))[14:18:03] <pulse> i woke up completely wet[14:18:08] <pulse> (from sweat)[14:18:19] <pulse> brainzap, i just wrote it down because it was so fucking weird lol[14:19:02] <jprajzne> what exactly about ascii vs html5?[14:19:22] <pulse> jprajzne, you could make the charts more readable if you presented them in a more human-appropriate form[14:19:31] <pulse> not super necessary though[14:19:33] <pulse> just an idea[14:19:33] <backthen> I rarely dream nowadays[14:19:50] <backthen> Someone told me it's a sign of stress[14:19:52] <pulse> backthen, pick up smoking and then quit. sure way for me, apparently >____<[14:20:13] <jprajzne> pulse: any suggestions? i want to have a better, paid? version done in indesign/latex[14:20:28] <pulse> jprajzne, ah, yeah i thought it might, lol[14:20:38] <backthen> pulse: my only bad habit is binge gaming[14:20:40] <pulse> jprajzne, idk i would just sprinkle some html5 magic over it *shrug*[14:20:54] <pulse> backthen, hmmm[14:23:51] <pulse> apparently REM rebound is caused by stopping smoking weed[14:24:00] <pulse> makes sense[14:25:04] <pulse> "Dreams help you sort through the thousands of impressions and images you encounter every day. When you smoke weed regularly, that function is also suppressed. Dr. Hamburger confirms this: "By smoking weed, you suppress the REM sleep, and with that you also suppress a lot of important functions of that REM sleep"[14:25:35] <pulse> "The less you give your brain the change to sort this shit out during REM sleep, the more dazed and confused you are during the day. This may explain why the seasoned stoner will often put off tasks and decisions until the very last minute"[14:25:36] <pulse> well, fuck[14:25:37] <brainzap> so does alc and caffeine, sleep rocks[14:25:50] <pulse> "Alcohol, surprisingly, has the opposite effect: If you go to bed shitfaced, the phases of REM sleep last longer. That is not to say that drinking two bottles of vodka before going to bed will help you get a good night's sleep. "Too much alcohol suppresses the deep sleep and gives you more REM sleep, but it makes you more restless and wake up more often. If you drink way too much, you'll be twisting and turning all night and keep waking up," said[14:25:50] <pulse> Hamburger"[14:26:01] <pulse> (dr. hamburger is a neurologist) :D[14:26:05] <pulse> https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/7b7gn4/why-are-your-dreams-suddenly-so-intense-when-you-stop-smoking-weed-876[14:26:30] <brainzap> hamburg is also a city in germany[14:26:43] <jprajzne> you could be anything with such name :))[14:26:48] <pulse> i know it was bombed in ww2[14:27:10] <pulse> ...i watched a documentary :s[14:27:33] <pulse> it had u-boat pens[14:27:42] <pulse> war is fascinating[14:28:05] <R2robot> war documentaries are[14:28:34] <jprajzne> what exactly is fascinating about war? :)[14:28:41] <pulse> pretty much everything[14:28:57] <Cahaan> war sucks[14:29:03] <Cahaan> but I like uboots[14:29:05] <R2robot> sucks, but fascinating[14:29:05] <pulse> yeah, absolutely[14:29:05] <jprajzne> the tech and science developed either for killing or protection?[14:29:31] <pulse> jprajzne, well i find it fascinating just how inventive people become[14:29:31] <R2robot> just like.. spiders. scare me to death.. but fascinating.. I take lots of pics of them. lol[14:29:42] <pulse> and how many crazy stories result from that[14:29:44] *** DaScoot <DaScoot!~Scooter@static-24-153-33-9.cpe.metrocast.net> has joined #gamedev[14:30:01] <Cahaan> I think war gets fascinating only when it's over and when you can tell stories about it, or study what happened etc.[14:30:03] <pulse> like why do we watch action movies? because they excite us[14:30:05] <R2robot> not to mention how much tech we use everyday that came out of war/defense initiatives.. including the internet[14:30:10] <pulse> but people in those wars actually were in a huge ass action movie[14:30:19] <pulse> as much as it sucked, i find the history interesting as fuck[14:30:26] <pulse> as much as it must have sucked*[14:30:32] <jprajzne> R2robot: right, internet arose from paranoia :))[14:30:38] <R2robot> :D[14:30:49] <pulse> Cahaan, yeah, i mean you're not going around in a war zone pondering how philosophically interesting it is :S[14:31:09] <jprajzne> pulse: you do if you work in academia :))[14:31:15] <pulse> heh :p[14:31:16] <R2robot> GPS, also a war/defense initiative[14:31:56] <jprajzne> R2robot: well, i bet that in alternative universe, those things come by without a war :)[14:32:07] <pulse> i have to doubt that[14:32:23] <Cahaan> porn didn't come through war[14:33:12] <Cahaan> but ok it's not exactly a technical invention[14:33:14] <jprajzne> Cahaan: idk, what about those sex camps during wwii? :))[14:33:25] <Cahaan> jprajzne, sex was a thing before ww2[14:33:27] <jprajzne> it's biotech :))[14:33:43] <jprajzne> Cahaan: sure, but not en mass like in those camps[14:33:54] <pulse> pretty sure cavemen had the first porn[14:34:20] <jprajzne> but i get it, there were erotic/porn scenes done before wwii[14:34:49] <Cahaan> I mean, some nice things are invented that doesn't come necessarily from war[14:34:58] <pulse> most useful stuff is though[14:35:26] <pulse> it was always a case of outsmarting the other tribe[14:35:34] <pulse> and if you had something they didn't, that was a huge advantage[14:35:49] <Cahaan> but you don't need a war for that[14:35:55] <pulse> no but you certainly need conflict[14:35:57] <Cahaan> you can just call it competition[14:36:01] <Cahaan> in a capitalist system[14:36:03] <jprajzne> pulse: to what extent is a technology useful?[14:36:06] <pulse> and when civilization grows, conflict turns to war[14:36:32] <pulse> Cahaan, yeah, maybe[14:36:51] <pulse> jprajzne, i don't know but if the allies hadn't invented the radio, we'd all be nazis right now, lol[14:37:01] <pulse> probably anyway[14:37:03] <jprajzne> pulse: what? :)[14:37:16] <jprajzne> Marconi did radio, i think :)[14:37:18] <pulse> eh, i mean radar[14:37:19] <pulse> :D[14:37:31] <jprajzne> sonar, ok[14:37:32] <jprajzne> :)[14:37:47] <jprajzne> and no, we weren't[14:38:04] <jprajzne> there was nobody left in germany to win the war[14:38:16] <jprajzne> hitler went too fast, wasting resources[14:38:22] <Cahaan> that's right[14:38:26] <jprajzne> bad planning, too many enemies in a short time :)[14:38:27] <Cahaan> attacking all fronts at the same time[14:38:32] <pulse> i think airborne radar was a really important invention during ww2[14:39:04] <Cahaan> advanced sonar systems too, for naval battles[14:39:20] <Cahaan> which basically made the uboots much easier to spot[14:40:05] <Cahaan> I need to play silent hunter again[14:40:07] <pulse> from what i can gather, it went back and forth[14:40:12] <pulse> sometimes the german had the technical advantage[14:40:15] <pulse> sometimes the allies did[14:40:40] <pulse> this has a nice backstory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metox_radar_detector[14:40:53] <jprajzne> i think that if there's someone from poland, we would have known already :))[14:41:05] <pulse> the germans didn't know if the metox was causing the uboats to be discovered or not[14:41:15] <jprajzne> those folks tend to know a lot about wwii[14:42:11] <pulse> listened to this the other day, really fascinating stuff imo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEm4FK9Osjo[14:42:17] <pulse> it's a bit long but i think it's worth the listen[14:42:21] <pulse> crazy stories[14:42:51] <Cahaan> I've always been fascinated by uboots[14:43:09] <pulse> i've been fascinated by them since i saw das boot[14:43:16] <pulse> i didn't really realize they were a huge thing before that, lol[14:43:17] <Cahaan> awesome movie[14:43:17] <jprajzne> am fascinated by people who are fascinated by war[14:43:20] <jprajzne> or not[14:43:20] <pulse> yeah[14:43:43] <pulse> jprajzne, those who don't learn about history are doomed to repeat it :p[14:43:53] <Cahaan> I need to visit the last intact Type VII some day[14:44:04] <Cahaan> there is one in Germany that you can visit and stuff[14:44:32] <pulse> also tbh a ton of games are inspired by war, directly or indirectly[14:44:40] <pulse> heck c&c is still one of my favorites of all times[14:44:43] <jprajzne> pulse: to an extent, as history gives the false idea that everything happens for the same reason :)[14:44:44] <pulse> and it's basically pixelated war[14:47:05] <Cahaan> in a way, old wars forged legends, heroes, and tales[14:47:15] <Cahaan> that we do enjoy in games[14:47:26] <jprajzne> Cahaan: that's not unique to wars[14:47:52] <Cahaan> well there is some kind of epicness that comes with, but you're right[14:47:56] <Cahaan> it's not exclusive to[14:47:57] <jprajzne> story telling is more general concept of how we spread information[14:48:57] <jprajzne> epics is a story telling element, again not unique to war stories, but certainly (over)used more in those[14:50:49] <jprajzne> i understand that we're violent specie and certainly other species are too, but really running so many war conflicts as we do now is bit too much and epic doesn't justify it for me either (besides tech), somehow[14:51:06] <jprajzne> would be nice to know how many wars are other species waging[14:54:25] <DaScoot> if ants had nukes we'd all be dead in an hour[14:55:46] <jprajzne> :))[14:55:55] <DaScoot> I support environmentalist causes myself, but I hate when some folks idolize animals like 'they would never war/murder/rape/etc etc'[14:56:01] <DaScoot> when there's examples of all of that[14:56:15] <brainzap> you got raped by your cat?[14:56:28] <jprajzne> i don't idealize other species, DaScoot :)[14:57:20] <DaScoot> not saying you, just something I've seen people say in general[14:57:53] <jprajzne> well, getting on top of the food chain says something[14:57:56] <brainzap> Anthropomorphism is the attribution of human traits, emotions, or intentions to non-human entities.[1] It is considered to be an innate tendency of human psychology.[2][14:57:57] <DaScoot> I've never had a cat, so I'm safe for now[14:59:35] <jprajzne> brainzap: that's the empathetic part of anthropocentrism[15:01:03] <pulse> animals don't have motives[15:01:10] <pulse> you need higher cognitive abilities to have motives[15:01:15] <pulse> and without motives war is pretty much impossible[15:02:13] <jprajzne> pulse: you'd be surprised how much of your motives are just masked basic functions based on rewards :)[15:02:25] <pulse> sure[15:03:06] <pulse> i think the main point is that animals don't really perceive future[15:03:17] <jprajzne> let's say we have very thick management layer :)[15:03:18] *** coffee <coffee!~coffee@coffeetales.net> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)[15:03:41] <jprajzne> pulse: neither we do, we're pretty shitty about predicting what's next[15:03:51] <pulse> jprajzne, i mean as a concept[15:04:08] <pulse> you need a certain level of cognition to conceptualize something like future[15:04:45] <jprajzne> agreed, but it's mainly to feed back to the reward system, satisfying the needs[15:04:56] <jprajzne> it's not like we absolutely must have that[15:05:02] <Cahaan> humans are the best to conceptualize and to organize themselves around "ideas"[15:05:06] <pulse> it's the reptile brain[15:05:08] <pulse> :p[15:05:14] <DnzAtWrk> not really[15:05:21] *** coffee <coffee!~coffee@coffeetales.net> has joined #gamedev[15:05:44] <DnzAtWrk> https://danieltoker.com/2018/04/11/you-dont-have-a-lizard-brain/[15:06:07] <jprajzne> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRYcSuyLiJk[15:06:13] * pulse reads[15:07:00] <jprajzne> that video contains good comparisons[15:08:30] <pulse> jprajzne, bookmarked for later[15:09:01] <jprajzne> pulse: i think listening is just fine, too[15:09:29] <jprajzne> i don't think there're important slides[15:09:56] <DnzAtWrk> you know what grinds my gears? When people talk about sentient and non-sentient creatures[15:10:17] <DnzAtWrk> Star Trek is a huge offender here, but even "smart" sci-fi gets it wrong all the time[15:10:29] <jprajzne> DnzAtWrk: star trek is terrible[15:10:33] <DnzAtWrk> your dog, hamster and goldfish are perfectly sentient[15:10:38] <DnzAtWrk> it does not take a human to be sentient[15:10:59] <DnzAtWrk> I don't know at what level sentience breaks down[15:11:01] <DnzAtWrk> bacteria?[15:11:08] <jprajzne> human :))[15:11:12] <DnzAtWrk> technically bacteria can still feel things[15:11:44] <jprajzne> star trek is terrible, but still people think it's really rational at the same time[15:11:50] <jprajzne> or logical[15:12:29] <DnzAtWrk> Some Star Trek is good[15:12:49] <DnzAtWrk> Other times its Archer being angry because Pip doesn't like slavery[15:13:12] <jprajzne> i have troubles understanding its fans, beyond the point that it's humans controlling great tech and some part of universe[15:13:20] <DnzAtWrk> trip*[15:15:43] <pulse> lol @ trouble understanding star trek fans[15:15:52] <pulse> it's a huge spaceship, exploring the universe[15:15:54] <pulse> nuff said[15:16:02] <pulse> plus there's holodeck[15:16:21] <pulse> it may not get a lot right, but it has surprisingly good morals[15:16:25] <jprajzne> pulse: that's basically what i wrote - tech and being humans in control of the universe :)[15:16:51] <jprajzne> sort of, unless the inner child called q comes around parodying a super-entity :)[15:17:04] <pulse> the idea of warp drives excites me[15:17:16] <DnzAtWrk> but in reality it would not work[15:17:20] <pulse> lies[15:17:24] <DnzAtWrk> yes let's have this conversation again[15:17:26] <pulse> :D[15:17:28] <jprajzne> what DnzAtWrk says[15:17:39] <pulse> the metric works mathematically[15:17:43] <jprajzne> pulse: watch/listen the video :)[15:17:45] <pulse> all you need is a bit of negative energy juice[15:17:46] <DnzAtWrk> yes but it doesn't work out logically[15:17:51] <DnzAtWrk> it would break causality[15:17:55] <DnzAtWrk> no way around it[15:18:04] <pulse> not really since it's not instantaneous travel[15:18:14] <pulse> if it would be, then yeah[15:18:33] <pulse> it's just using space to move as opposed to moving through space itself[15:18:37] <pulse> i think it's perfectly logical actually[15:18:38] <DnzAtWrk> doesn't matter[15:18:41] <DnzAtWrk> I mean, let's make this clear[15:18:48] <DnzAtWrk> it does not matter HOW you move to the point[15:19:04] <DnzAtWrk> the fact that you managed to move there at all in less time than it took light means you broke causality[15:19:18] <pulse> but space can move faster than light and not break causality[15:19:19] <jprajzne> nothing would be left of you in either case :)[15:19:20] <pulse> from what i understand[15:19:41] <DnzAtWrk> yes, space can[15:19:50] <DnzAtWrk> so... if you could permanently collapse space between two points[15:19:53] <DnzAtWrk> THEN you could move there[15:19:57] <DnzAtWrk> but I think you see the problem[15:20:18] <pulse> i do, but a lot of actual physicists agree that the alcubierre metric would work, provided some fancy exotic matter[15:20:32] <pulse> i'm not versed enough to be able to discuss it on that level though[15:20:35] <jprajzne> fancy exotic matter :))[15:20:38] <pulse> :>[15:20:40] <DnzAtWrk> the alcubierre drive doesn't solve it though[15:20:44] <DnzAtWrk> as I said, it does not matter how you move[15:20:49] <DnzAtWrk> you could teleport for all it matters[15:20:53] <DnzAtWrk> same result[15:20:56] <DnzAtWrk> it enables time travel[15:21:34] <pulse> http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Dossiers/Time/A%20E%20Everett%20-%20Warp%20drive%20and%20causality%20-%20prd950914.pdf[15:21:38] <pulse> now if only i could understand all this xD[15:21:41] <jprajzne> it's like somebody asked about how does the heisenberg's compensator work and the reply was "thank you , pretty good so far" :)[15:21:44] <pulse> 15 june 1996 though :D[15:23:12] <pulse> this one argues that it does violate causality[15:23:15] * pulse shrugs[15:23:28] <DnzAtWrk> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyonic_antitelephone[15:23:37] <DnzAtWrk> basically, this is what you would be able to do if you could teleport[15:23:38] <DnzAtWrk> same effect[15:24:05] <DnzAtWrk> these equations do not consider mode of transport[15:24:39] <pulse> hmm[15:25:07] <DnzAtWrk> it kinda breaks the immersion in star trek and other sci-fi tbh[15:25:07] <pulse> so you're saying we're stuck on this rock forever, eh[15:25:14] <DnzAtWrk> to know that it simply doesn't make any sense[15:25:22] <DnzAtWrk> well, not stuck[15:25:30] *** zeduckmaster <zeduckmaster!~zeduckmas@85.106.1.181> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[15:25:32] <DaScoot> people use the word sentient when they mean sapient[15:25:43] <pulse> only alternative is to find a way to age to 20k years[15:25:48] <DnzAtWrk> just takes quite a few years to move somewhere even at the speed of light[15:25:55] <DnzAtWrk> not 20K years[15:26:00] <DnzAtWrk> we can get it down to some 20 or so[15:26:04] <DnzAtWrk> if we can get close to C[15:26:30] <pulse> yeah, and travel so far into the future nothing exists anymore[15:26:50] <DaScoot> well not if you're only traveling a couple ly[15:27:12] <DnzAtWrk> if you get to C, time will stand still for you[15:27:17] <DnzAtWrk> so I guess you can get to the end of the universe[15:27:18] <DnzAtWrk> hmm[15:27:42] <DnzAtWrk> I mean, time will stand still for you relative to everything else[15:27:53] <DnzAtWrk> except for stuff traveling in the same direction at C[15:27:53] <DaScoot> yeah, if you ever fall into a black hole you won't actually hit it until the end of time[15:28:29] <pulse> you'll get spaghettified long before that[15:28:51] <DnzAtWrk> not from your perspective[15:28:54] <DnzAtWrk> I think[15:29:09] <DaScoot> it depends on the size of the black hole[15:29:15] <DaScoot> massive ones won't spaghetti you[15:29:28] <DnzAtWrk> I think you're able to travel far inside the event horizon before being pulled apart[15:29:32] <DaScoot> needs to be small enough for the tidal effects to be noticable on the scale of a few feet[15:30:06] <jprajzne> question is what happens to you when we know the light is not i thing you can just grab and manipulate as normal object[15:30:58] <jprajzne> it can move that fast probably just because it's not like us[15:31:31] <DnzAtWrk> light doesn't have time to worry about[15:31:41] <jprajzne> neither we do[15:31:56] <DnzAtWrk> hmm... maybe not at that level[15:32:21] <jprajzne> not even at this level, we invented time to measure changes[15:33:14] <DnzAtWrk> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_of_time[15:33:19] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[15:33:27] *** xrash <xrash!~xrash@189.78.182.121> has joined #gamedev[15:35:24] <jprajzne> another thing why we cannot have pretty things? :))[15:36:18] <jprajzne> it's interesting that the universe works without these walls[15:36:37] <jprajzne> *without thinking about[15:37:41] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[15:38:06] *** solidfox <solidfox!~solidfox@unaffiliated/snake/x-2550465> has joined #gamedev[15:38:19] <DnzAtWrk> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAij6ztC_tk[15:39:51] *** DnzAtWrk <DnzAtWrk!~DnzAtWrk@mobile-access-6df000-56.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[15:39:59] <jprajzne> :)) explains a lot[15:41:46] <jprajzne> makes us a spoiled brats, fighting each other and others while being perfectly safe from the cool but scary stuff :))[15:42:07] *** Tylak <Tylak!~Tylak@074-135-002-092.res.spectrum.com> has joined #gamedev[15:47:20] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[15:49:37] *** knops <knops!~yannick@ip-62-143-84-11.hsi01.unitymediagroup.de> has joined #gamedev[15:50:56] *** RandomCouch <RandomCouch!~RandomSof@207.219.200.115> has joined #gamedev[15:54:41] *** jprajzne <jprajzne!jprajzne@nat/redhat/x-fvutknqfzrnsthze> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)[15:54:44] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[15:58:55] <BPL> anyone here familiar with collision detections?[16:02:23] <RandomCouch> depends on what you're using[16:05:22] *** warweasle <warweasle!user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe26:d1db> has joined #gamedev[16:07:12] <BPL> RandomCouch: I've got a bounding box in object coordinates transformed to world space (oriented bounding box). I was looking some algorithm to check visibility against camera frustrum but I haven't found anything on the internet so far :/ . So far only the typical ones of AABB vs frustrum[16:08:12] <BPL> RandomCouch: Said otherwise, I've got oriented_bbox={(bbox_min,bbox_max), M} and frustrum={planes[6]}[16:12:30] * solidfox shakes his fist[16:12:41] <solidfox> damn all these abbreviations![16:13:12] <solidfox> BPL: are you making an engine[16:14:05] <BPL> solidfox: Yeah, a pretty basic one though, more oriented to photorealistic rendering rather than performance real-time collisions... but i'd like to have some pretty basic frustrum culling algorithm in place[16:21:52] <RandomCouch> BPL, sounds a bit too advanced for me lol, is your 3d world infinite or with limits?[16:28:35] <BPL> RandomCouch: Hehe, nah, no worries, it's advanced for you and me who are not familiar with the maths, other people who's dealt with it would tell us this is just a trivial task ;) . Time to get paper and pen i guess... \:O/[16:29:28] <RandomCouch> BPL, that is the best way to learn though! Props on diving into the unknown, good luck on your quest mate[16:39:10] *** krychu <krychu!~krychu@2a02:1205:505c:2ab0:cdf7:6cdb:981f:1305> has quit IRC (Quit: krychu)[16:40:51] <warweasle> BPL: I used to have have a link to a bunch of physics algorithms for finding collisions between shapes.[16:44:46] *** Purlox <Purlox!znc@cetacean.club> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[16:54:07] <solidfox> does unity use a lot of memory due to using csharp with garbage collecting?[16:54:21] <solidfox> i wonder if a cpp based game engine would be more memory efficient[16:56:12] <solidfox> nah looks fine for the tiny thing im working on[16:57:32] <pulse> context is all[17:01:07] *** stefkos <stefkos!~Pawel@79.184.76.92.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl> has quit IRC (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))[17:05:31] *** notus <notus!uid244649@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ohrdjgtgponmmpkj> has joined #gamedev[17:08:24] *** krychu <krychu!~krychu@2a02:1205:505c:2ab0:cdf7:6cdb:981f:1305> has joined #gamedev[17:11:56] *** macza <macza!~macza@67.231.29.194> has joined #gamedev[17:24:04] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[17:26:07] *** backthen <backthen!~backthen@c-76-103-179-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))[17:31:34] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[17:32:08] *** Purlox <Purlox!~fox@2607:5300:60:14bc::> has joined #gamedev[17:33:54] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[17:38:05] *** freefork_afk is now known as freestyledork[17:43:06] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[17:43:24] *** david2_ <david2_!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has joined #gamedev[17:44:16] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[17:48:54] *** david2_ <david2_!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[17:53:09] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has joined #gamedev[17:55:24] <RandomCouch> solidfox, I'm pretty sure Unity is CPP at the core[17:56:53] <solidfox> woohoo i finally finished the rolling the ball game tutorial[17:57:13] <solidfox> RandomCouch: ahh yeah, that makes sense. they just use csharp for your game's scripts[18:01:49] <solidfox> now for the micro transactions..[18:07:01] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[18:23:21] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[18:25:24] <LastTalon> And now for something completely different.[18:25:49] <solidfox> LastTalon: sup?[18:26:18] <LastTalon> Not much. Watching the new jim sterling video.[18:29:05] *** BPL <BPL!~BPL@102.56.27.77.dynamic.reverse-mundo-r.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[18:33:17] *** macza <macza!~macza@67.231.29.194> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[18:33:54] <warweasle> solidfox: Have you tried a loot box? Maybe selling a red dot on the middle of the screen?[18:35:16] <solidfox> warweasle: nah man those loot boxes are scams[18:36:06] <solidfox> warweasle: im not evil, just trying to make money. (also the idea that i'd add micro transactions to my unity exercise was a joke :P )[18:36:50] <warweasle> solidfox: I know. I'm just adding some friendly banter to the channel.[18:37:30] *** freestyledork_ <freestyledork_!~freestyle@unaffiliated/freestyledork> has joined #gamedev[18:37:55] <LastTalon> Anyone else find opinions about loot boxes and microtransactions and whatnot both highly amusing and deeply disappointing?[18:40:57] *** freestyledork <freestyledork!~freestyle@unaffiliated/freestyledork> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[18:41:34] <solidfox> warweasle: o[18:42:00] <solidfox> LastTalon: i mean, it could be a good thing. just depends on if its provably fair..[18:42:41] <solidfox> LastTalon: some people recently made a site where the biggest prize was a 250 billion dollar house and were selling the loot boxes to kids[18:43:27] <LastTalon> Its free real estate.[18:43:34] <solidfox> literally[18:44:20] <solidfox> warweasle: for some reason i dont perceive humor a lot of the time on irc. my bad[18:44:49] <LastTalon> I find it both amusing and disappointing how little people base their opinion of loot boxes on.[18:44:54] *** batman_nair <batman_nair!~batman_na@111.92.77.160> has joined #gamedev[18:45:52] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[18:46:19] <solidfox> what am i supposed to do.. look at multiple examples.. consult a games theory expert.. form an unbiased opinion by looking at the available evidence and discern the truth using the categorical imperative?[18:46:45] <LastTalon> Nah, you just scream "lootboxes bad" at people until they don't want to talk to you anymore.[18:47:01] <solidfox> yes lootboxes r bad[18:47:09] *** freestyledork_ is now known as freestyledork[18:47:43] <LastTalon> It just instantly devolves into platitudes. It disappoints me.[18:47:44] *** macza <macza!~macza@67.231.29.194> has joined #gamedev[18:48:10] <solidfox> LastTalon: i wonder if its legal to start my own loot box. top prize is a $60,000 tree farm.[18:48:35] <solidfox> i take the money i get, buy some random stuff that costs less than that. and send it to the person[18:48:48] <solidfox> its a great oppurtunity for profit[18:49:23] <solidfox> eh i'd never be able to market it :<[18:49:29] <LastTalon> Probably not.[18:49:45] <LastTalon> I mean, its currently legal in most countries.[18:49:57] <LastTalon> I'm agreeing on the marketing point.[18:50:24] <LastTalon> Although a $60000 prize would be taxable.[18:50:47] <solidfox> its my dads farm.. idk if he'd give it up so willingly[18:50:53] <LastTalon> So that's even more of a difficult time with marketing.[18:50:57] <solidfox> we'd need to make a lot of $$$[18:52:04] <LastTalon> For me though, that doesn't look as much like true gambling though. That's kind of what gets me disappointed.[18:52:17] <LastTalon> Like, that looks more like a raffle to me. Which is not legally gambling.[18:52:51] <LastTalon> Loot boxes, raffles, etc. are things I would categorize differently than true gambling.[18:52:54] <solidfox> before the lootbox scandal, i remember you could order a themed box, for example: pay $50 a month and get a loot box with random stuff from japan in it. new stuff from japan every month[18:53:24] <solidfox> i think its similar but this was never considered a scam, it was niche though[18:53:35] <solidfox> LastTalon: ah, i see.[18:54:07] *** mandeep <mandeep!mandeep@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/mandeepb> has joined #gamedev[18:54:09] <LastTalon> There are important, although subtle differences.[18:54:41] <solidfox> its different than a lottery because someone wins for sure right?[18:54:51] <solidfox> i mean usually with a raffle, somebody wins[18:55:18] <solidfox> with a lottery, it could be that nobody wins[18:55:33] <LastTalon> Even a lottery, I guess I'd technically put in a similar category. The issue with a lottery is that it shares more with true gambling in that you get money as a prize.[18:55:56] <LastTalon> Money which can instantly be flipped for more lottery tickets.[18:56:10] *** Serpent7776 <Serpent7776!~Serpent77@90-156-31-193.internetia.net.pl> has joined #gamedev[18:56:10] <LastTalon> (Which is especially a problem for small prize pool lotteries)[18:56:23] <solidfox> lol who in their right mind would buy lottery tickets with their lottery winnings[18:56:38] <LastTalon> Well some lottery tickets only give you like 5x the cost of a ticket.[18:56:45] <LastTalon> With a higher win chance.[18:56:53] <solidfox> they pick the winning numbers on live tv from a ball scrambling..[18:56:56] <LastTalon> Which starts to look an awful lot like true gambling.[18:57:11] <solidfox> oh i see the simple scratch offs that say if you won something immediately[18:57:13] <LastTalon> Not all lottery tickets work like the big prize lotteries.[18:57:21] <solidfox> i see i see[18:57:52] <LastTalon> So lotteries definitely share a lot more with true gambling.[18:58:03] <LastTalon> Whereas in a raffle you typically win something like a car.[18:58:13] <LastTalon> And you can't easily use the car to buy more raffle tickets.[18:59:00] <solidfox> what if two people choose the same lottery numbers..[18:59:29] *** S_Gautam <S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-urpqrhqrxjxdcqfw> has joined #gamedev[19:01:17] *** mandeep <mandeep!mandeep@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/mandeepb> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[19:02:36] <LastTalon> solidfox, lotteries usually have a prize pool.[19:02:38] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has joined #gamedev[19:02:49] <solidfox> strange, people have asked this on the internet and gotten miles of text describing how to win a lottery, but dont answer the question[19:03:04] <LastTalon> Lotteries often have multiple winners (you don't need all numbers to win a prize). The total prize pool is split among all winners.[19:03:05] <solidfox> what if two people choose the same winning numbers?[19:03:26] <solidfox> oh i see ok[19:03:29] <LastTalon> So if there are multiple grand prize winners they receive an equal prize from the prize pool based on their winning category.[19:03:45] <LastTalon> Basically it means if you win at the same time as someone else you get less money.[19:04:13] <LastTalon> This happens even if you win the grand prize and someone wins a lesser prize, too.[19:04:26] <LastTalon> Its proportional though.[19:04:44] <LastTalon> A smaller prize is only a small portion of the prize pool.[19:05:16] <LastTalon> Of course each lottery works a bit differently.[19:05:24] <LastTalon> But in general they operate that way.[19:05:58] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[19:07:17] <LastTalon> Also, to be fair, lots of lottery winners use their winnings to buy more lottery tickets.[19:07:36] <LastTalon> Plenty of grand prize winners continue playing the lottery.[19:09:59] <solidfox> i guess i would in a limited fashion. i mean if i played the lottery at all[19:10:03] <solidfox> (which i dont)[19:10:18] <solidfox> i played once because a friend at mcdonalds encouraged me to[19:10:22] <LastTalon> Right. You'd kind of be surprised to hear that someone who had played the lottery for years, won, then immediately quit.[19:11:01] <solidfox> i should start playing the lottery lol[19:11:10] <solidfox> i wouldnt win though[19:11:21] <solidfox> guess i should get a job first[19:11:37] <LastTalon> Probably.[19:12:31] <LastTalon> A blind prize like a lootbox though, has this special difference from raffles even though, where you always get some prize.[19:12:34] <chrisf> the lottery is a tax on people who didnt pay attention in statistics class[19:13:15] <LastTalon> And the prizes still, like a raffle aren't liquid enough to immediately turn into another shot at it.[19:13:56] <LastTalon> Its not a slot machine or roulette or other gambling game that your prize can be used to continue playing right away.[19:14:18] <LastTalon> I'd love to see more nuanced discussion of these points rather than what I usually see.[19:14:19] <solidfox> chrisf: heh[19:14:43] <solidfox> LastTalon: the site in the recent scandal lets you sell your items back to them[19:15:08] <solidfox> LastTalon: still have to ship it back tho[19:15:27] <LastTalon> Well then the liquidity isn't really that high still I don't think.[19:15:54] <LastTalon> For mechanics that let you instantly convert your prizes into credits to use for more lootboxes though, that's a lot like gambling imo.[19:16:38] <LastTalon> When you get cards from a pack and destroy them to buy more card packs for instance.[19:17:13] *** shake <shake!~shake@cable-95-168-139-220.cust.telecolumbus.net> has joined #gamedev[19:17:46] <LastTalon> Its kind of like if you could go to the store and there were blind boxes that had some amount of cash inside.[19:18:54] <LastTalon> Its different than a blind boxes that have a plastic figurine in them or something.[19:23:14] <pulse> only a little over 2 weeks until RE2:remake is released[19:23:18] <pulse> H Y P E[19:24:39] <warweasle> I want a blind box with a 10% chance of killing the buyer.[19:24:49] <LastTalon> Got something that might interest you, stranger.[19:25:08] <LastTalon> warweasle, what? Just 1 in 10 contains anthrax? Lol[19:25:15] <warweasle> Oh wait, we call them cigarets.[19:26:42] <LastTalon> Also I don't follow the whole loot boxes = gambling logic.[19:26:57] *** Glasstree <Glasstree!~Glasstree@82-71-48-195.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk> has joined #gamedev[19:27:24] <LastTalon> Like... insofar as whether that means people shouldn't buy them. People gamble all the time.[19:27:57] <warweasle> I think people should quit buying games with horrible monitization strategies.[19:28:17] <warweasle> Then again, I realized how much I've paid for Stellaris.[19:28:21] <LastTalon> warweasle, cuz its gambling?[19:28:32] <solidfox> LastTalon: i think the criticism isnt that its gambling but that its probably not fair.[19:28:33] <LastTalon> Like that's the thing I don't understand if that's what you mean.[19:28:47] <LastTalon> solidfox, thats a fair accusation, but it loses some of its punch then.[19:29:04] <solidfox> LastTalon: yes saying gambling sounds more scandalous![19:29:12] <LastTalon> Because if the argument is that its gambling then it applies to all loot boxes and yes, exactly, its scandalous.[19:29:52] <LastTalon> But if its just "well some of these aren't very fair" then it leaves a bunch that are fair and really the problem isn't loot boxes anymore, is it? Its some games aren't very fair with their monetization.[19:29:59] <LastTalon> Which I totally understand and agree with.[19:30:37] <LastTalon> But then loot boxes are just a scapegoat for a real issue.[19:30:48] <LastTalon> Doesn't that actually suit the publishers who have unfair practices?[19:31:18] <LastTalon> Cuz later they can just kill loot boxes ceremoniously and continue with unfair practices of a different kind?[19:31:48] * LastTalon has maybe thought about this a lot[19:31:59] * LastTalon maybe devotes too much time to this line of thought[19:32:43] <LastTalon> Ultimately publishes with shitty monetization practices don't need loot boxes to do that (or any particular form of monetization).[19:34:00] <solidfox> LastTalon: if i did a lootbox, i would basically have this "algorithm" prize = PurchaseItem(cost:=revenue/2);[19:35:24] * LastTalon shrugs[19:35:32] <LastTalon> As long as you're clear about the win rate[19:36:43] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has joined #gamedev[19:36:50] *** mandeep <mandeep!~mandeep@unaffiliated/mandeepb> has quit IRC (Max SendQ exceeded)[19:36:53] <brainzap> lots of zeroes[19:36:56] <solidfox> you always win a prize.. and i guess i could randomly select someone to get a bigger prize[19:37:12] <LastTalon> I mean the win rate per prize.[19:37:16] <solidfox> but yeah idk.. im too lazy i need to do something really well instead of lazy ideas like that[19:38:02] <brainzap> you need ideas?[19:39:54] <pulse> a coffee table book ... about coffee tables[19:41:16] <LastTalon> solidfox, I mean if each prize has an equal chance your rate disclosure is pretty easy I guess.[19:42:56] <solidfox> LastTalon: ah i see what you mean[19:44:15] <brainzap> I have seen people get the item when opening the first lootbox[19:45:33] <LastTalon> Gotta take your statistics classes.[19:47:59] *** xen74 <xen74!~xen74@2001:44b8:2e3:9b00:7506:9271:8375:b7de> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[19:48:09] <aeth> worse, there's no reason to believe that these are fair gambling contests like the regulated ones in Vegas[19:48:28] <aeth> If the people you see get the item on their first try are streamers, that might be because the dev made sure that the streamer would win[19:48:44] <brainzap> no, stop spreading lies[19:49:09] <LastTalon> brainzap, don't worry, aeth is just fearmongering. :P[19:49:12] <aeth> For Overwatch or Fortnite or CS:GO or whatever? No, they probably don't rig it. For $random_mobile_game? Why not?[19:49:31] <brainzap> why we talk about random_mobile_game nobody gives shieet[19:50:07] <LastTalon> I'm very concerned about the $ appended to the front.[19:50:21] <aeth> LastTalon: Perl is the only real language for gamedev[19:50:51] <LastTalon> Perl and PHP the choices of mobile game devs worldwide.[19:52:22] <aeth> So back in the old days of IRC, circa 2002-2007 or so, Perl was the cool language, not ~Python~ ~Ruby~ ~Clojure~ ~JavaScript~ ~Lua~ TypeScript[19:52:47] <brainzap> PHP was cool back then[19:52:51] <Cahaan> Lua was actually cool back then[19:52:51] *** ShadowIce <ShadowIce!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has joined #gamedev[19:53:02] <Cahaan> not as much these days[19:53:35] <aeth> Lua has never been more popular in gamedev circles. I hate the language because I've written a lot of it, but I tend not to criticize it because that's a good way to irreversibly lose 4 hours of my life[19:54:36] <aeth> Criticize Lua or C++ and people pile on because 90% of custom, hobbyist-written engines (and there are probably hundreds/thousands of them) are C++-and-Lua[19:55:17] <pulse> 1-based indices are morally wrong[19:55:24] <Cahaan> the cool things these days are game engines[19:55:29] <Cahaan> not C++/Lua[19:56:09] <LastTalon> Lol[19:56:10] <LastTalon> I like Lua[19:56:34] <aeth> pulse: No problem with 1-based indices in general. Big problem with 1-based indices if your entire point is C/C++ interop as a sandboxable scripting language.[19:56:36] <LastTalon> Lua for best language 2018[19:57:11] <LastTalon> I mean technically starting at 1 is convention in Lua[19:57:20] <LastTalon> There's nothing stopping you from starting at 0[19:57:24] <brainzap> dead language[19:57:40] <pulse> undead language[19:57:47] <brainzap> zombie?[19:57:53] <Cahaan> cast protection against undead 10 radius[19:57:54] <aeth> LastTalon: that's even worse because that means some (poorly designed) APIs are 0-based because they're 0-based in the C++ when your mind is in Lua mode[19:58:00] <aeth> Easy recipe for off-by-one[19:58:14] <LastTalon> Why would an API use numerals as keys?[19:58:27] <LastTalon> They are associative arrays after all.[19:58:33] <LastTalon> You can use any name you like.[19:58:44] <aeth> eh[19:58:49] <brainzap> Richard[19:59:08] <LastTalon> I thought you said you weren't going to argue anyway.[19:59:12] <aeth> Either you use regular Lua and suffer or you use LuaJIT and it's a lie that everything is a hash-table and you're going to get good performance by pretending you can get real data structures in Lua[19:59:20] <aeth> But this is what I mean about losing 4 hours :-p[19:59:20] <aeth> so[19:59:41] <LastTalon> I feel like your arguments are baseless anyway.[20:00:56] <pulse> or you make your own scripting language[20:01:08] <LastTalon> pulse, why would I make my own? Lua is bae[20:01:10] <pulse> push it to the limit[20:02:12] <Cahaan> I like making my own scripting languages[20:02:31] <Cahaan> because I can make them as expressive as needed for my specific purposes[20:02:54] <LastTalon> That's fine as long as you don't need other people to adopt them.[20:03:08] <Cahaan> which is the case exactly 100% of the time[20:03:13] <LastTalon> Good.[20:03:16] <aeth> Ignoring most specifics about Lua's design... Lua has two advantages: it's small and it's sandboxable. The alternatives are JS, which is sandboxable, but is large, or your custom scripting language, which no one knows. Basically.[20:03:24] <aeth> That's why you see Lua all over the place.[20:03:26] <brainzap> not discussing lua[20:03:38] <LastTalon> Lol[20:04:17] <LastTalon> "Since you can index a table with any value, you can start the indices of an array with any number that pleases you. However, it is customary in Lua to start arrays with 1 (and not with 0, as in C) and several facilities stick to this convention." -PIL[20:04:26] <Cahaan> still 3:50 to go[20:04:48] <brainzap> I think in the future you dont have scripting languages[20:05:04] <LastTalon> Whats a scripting language? :D[20:05:07] <pulse> compile your script into EXE files and interface with your game[20:05:12] <pulse> scripts*[20:05:36] <aeth> brainzap: Well... it's certainly better to use a language that's fast enough and flexible enough to use everywhere than to mix the fastest language with a pretty slow one imo[20:05:47] <aeth> Might even be faster overall[20:06:06] <aeth> brainzap: But if you're going to accept arbitrary, unmoderated submissions to the Steam Workshop or something, you'd need something like Lua[20:06:16] <aeth> If you want that kind of deep modding, that is[20:06:46] <LastTalon> Yup. Sandboxable, extensible, easy to learn without experience.[20:06:59] <LastTalon> Perfect for mods/plugins[20:07:19] <brainzap> which would be a custom language[20:07:46] <brainzap> because the mainstream ones are all not it[20:07:53] <aeth> "easy to learn without experience" and approachable for modders is how you get YAML... e.g. https://arp242.net/weblog/yaml_probably_not_so_great_after_all.html[20:08:12] <aeth> (and this is gamedev relevant because I first encountered YAML in Minecraft mods while it was in the process of becoming popular in general)[20:08:34] <Atari2600> gaaahh[20:08:41] <Atari2600> Lua <3[20:08:49] <aeth> YAML, btw, is the opposite of Perl. If Perl is write-only, YAML is read-only. :-p[20:09:04] <pulse> what about vbscript[20:09:08] <pulse> :^][20:09:09] <LastTalon> Loading arbitrary strings is always unsafe when done without precaution.[20:09:12] <Atari2600> you don't like Lua tables? they are its biggest strength[20:09:21] <LastTalon> Thats not a feature exclusive to yaml[20:09:24] <Atari2600> simple, generic, reusable, reflexive[20:09:30] <LastTalon> Lua tables are great.[20:09:50] <Atari2600> IMO Lua is the best scripting language to be embedded[20:10:02] <Atari2600> if you don't need embedding, then go with Python :>[20:10:06] <LastTalon> The only thing people ever complain about is the 1-indexing which is not a property of the tables, but the Lua core libraries.[20:10:13] <aeth> Atari2600: Lua took "everything in Lisp is [syntactically] a list", misunderstood that (including the implied "syntactically") and asked "what if everything is a hash table instead?" so... it's actually a language premised on a misunderstanding of another language[20:10:19] <Atari2600> wut[20:10:28] <Atari2600> " boo hoo hoo! they defaced Lisp"[20:10:40] <aeth> no, I mean, you actually do want different data structures for different things[20:10:46] <LastTalon> That's not even how Lua works.[20:10:47] <Atari2600> "my precious Lisp was tainted! boo! my nostalgia was harmed!"[20:10:49] <aeth> Otherwise you either have something that is (a) slow or (b) magic[20:11:29] <Atari2600> you should erase Lisp from your head[20:11:30] <aeth> Sure, you get LuaJIT to benchmark really well in some toy microbenchmark for matrix multiplication. Now change one tiny thing and the performance will probably collapse because that's what magic is. I want a matrix data structure so I can actually have a large code base.[20:11:37] <Atari2600> Lua is Lua with or without lisp[20:12:01] <Atari2600> Lua does not depend on Lisp. Lua does not care about Lisp. Lua coders don't give a shit about Lisp (and no one else does too)[20:12:50] <LastTalon> I find these discussions fascinating.[20:13:19] <aeth> Every language either should provide syntactic sugar or should provide a means of abstraction by which I can easily define my own syntactic sugar. Lua doesn't even have += so long, meaningful variable names, my convention in literally every language I program in, are more inconvenient in Lua than in most.[20:14:02] <LastTalon> That's just like... your opinion, man.[20:14:15] <Atari2600> you still didn't tell us what is wrong with Lua itself[20:14:19] <Atari2600> you are just doing dumb comparisons[20:14:45] <Atari2600> Lua provides a shit ton of abstractions with its tables, btw :)[20:14:54] <aeth> Atari2600: I have a list of like 100 annoyances that add up to make anything more than a few thousand lines very painful. It's sort of like bash, except bash's level of painfulness is probably a few hundred.[20:14:59] <Atari2600> zzz[20:15:03] <Cahaan> but there is more than 3 hours and a half to go before reaching to the conclusion ![20:15:16] <pulse> bash is the worst thing to write code in[20:15:26] <pulse> pretty sure i'd rather code a spaceship in lua than write a simple script in bash[20:15:27] <Atari2600> aeth, let us know where are these annoyances. feel free to use a paste site to not flood this channel. thanks :)[20:15:46] <aeth> as I said earlier "but I tend not to criticize it because that's a good way to irreversibly lose 4 hours of my life"[20:15:58] <aeth> You really do seem like you're willing to argue every point so this might go beyond 4.[20:16:15] <aeth> Go ahead, use Lua, waste hours doing things that are easier in 10 other languages.[20:16:21] <LastTalon> Its okay, I've come to the conclusion that aeth really isn't concerned with any of that. He just wants to assert that his opinion is the correct one.[20:16:47] <aeth> LastTalon: What I am doing is I am trying very hard not to argue because nothing productive comes from it, and everyone wastes time[20:16:58] <Atari2600> for embedding, Lua is the easiest and fastest :)[20:17:08] <LastTalon> aeth, yes, meanwhile asserting that your opinion is the correct one.[20:17:18] <LastTalon> Saying that we are in fact wrong for liking Lua[20:17:37] <Atari2600> my current scripting languages are: 1) Lua for embedding 2) Javascript because no other choice for webdev 3) Python for everything else[20:17:40] <aeth> LastTalon: Of course I am objectively correct about all things programming languages and it's not just a matter of taste :-p[20:17:43] <LastTalon> While denying us the chance of learning the precious knowledge you supposedly have that would validate your opinion.[20:17:47] <Atari2600> he is trolling[20:17:55] <LastTalon> Atari2600, I'm aware[20:18:00] <Atari2600> he does not like Lua, but he is not giving us any chance to discuss[20:18:20] <aeth> Atari2600: Because nothing productive comes from it.[20:18:23] <Atari2600> he is being intentionally vague to disguise his rantings[20:18:33] <Atari2600> see? being vague again[20:18:59] <LastTalon> If you don't like Lua, that's fine. But don't do it with the veneer of a rational argument that you won't provide.[20:19:04] <Atari2600> aeth, please let us know when you stop being an useless piece of shit and you want to discuss anything like an adult. thanks[20:19:09] <aeth> Listing why a language is bad accomplishes nothing because the people who love the language keep using it, the people who hate it keep trying to avoid it where possible, and nobody changes their mind. And everyone wastes a few hours that could be spent doing something else.[20:19:27] <aeth> People get religious about programming languages, and you can't talk someone into or out of a religion.[20:19:35] <Atari2600> it is also ok to just say: "I don't like Lua. it does not fit my style"[20:19:39] <LastTalon> I like the contrast between the way Atari2600 and I just said the same thing.[20:19:46] <LastTalon> Lol[20:20:01] <Atari2600> there are people embedding Python too. and even Javascript[20:20:11] <Atari2600> I respect their effort, but I don't like to pay the price they pay[20:20:13] <aeth> LastTalon: People do not take programming languages rationally. This isn't my first rodeo. Ironically, by not arguing, I seem to have created a larger, more heated argument than by arguing, though.[20:20:26] <Atari2600> aeth, YOU don't take programming languages rationally[20:20:27] <LastTalon> You are arguing.[20:20:34] <Atari2600> don't project your shit on the others[20:20:34] <aeth> Nothing good comes from just listing things against a language even when there are reasons against using a language.[20:20:35] <LastTalon> You're just doing so using vague terms and derailment.[20:20:37] <Atari2600> that is really lame[20:20:48] <LastTalon> Rather than arguing what anyone intended to discuss.[20:21:25] <Atari2600> every time someone starts a sentence with "People do/don't do something"... the rest that comes are just idiosyncrasies[20:21:35] <LastTalon> Its a method of arguing that people use when their argument for a particular point can't be supported.[20:21:37] <Atari2600> but no one likes to feel alone[20:21:41] <Atari2600> yeah[20:21:49] <Atari2600> all logical fallacies :-/[20:21:52] <Atari2600> welcome to the Internets[20:21:53] <Atari2600> \o/[20:22:17] <aeth> LastTalon: I don't think you understand. I can support an argument against Lua (and probably even make an argument for Lua, if I was bored enough) but that accomplishes nothing.[20:22:26] <aeth> This is #gamedev not #spendthedayarguingproglangs[20:22:33] <LastTalon> aeth, you're just proving my point.[20:22:45] <Atari2600> :)[20:22:47] <LastTalon> "I won't give my arguments, but trust me I have them."[20:22:52] <aeth> LastTalon: My point is that my point *can* be supported[20:22:58] <aeth> It's just that it's not productive to support it[20:23:00] <Atari2600> "I can do it" (but you won't see me doing it)[20:23:07] <LastTalon> Maybe it can but you aren't.[20:23:16] <LastTalon> Thats my point.[20:23:18] <Atari2600> we are not interested in potential energy, aeth[20:23:47] <LastTalon> I can create a rival to facebook, but I haven't.[20:23:52] <LastTalon> Those are different things.[20:24:02] <Atari2600> "I can destroy Qt"[20:24:04] <Atari2600> :D[20:24:18] <LastTalon> I'll come back and brag about it if and when I do[20:24:26] <Atari2600> "wait for me!"[20:25:12] <aeth> First, the Lua syntax is awful. In practice a big Lua file will look like } } } end } }. Secondly, everything in a table is a terrible idea because now you made a language that is hard to efficiently implement. You need to JIT instead of AOT and the JIT needs to be very "magical" and hard to understand the performance implications.[20:25:27] <aeth> Additionally, Lua has perhaps the least featureful REPL of every language that offers it. It's probably the least interactive development experience.[20:25:53] <aeth> The number of data types in the language are far too low. This makes it hard to choose the correct representation for a given problem.[20:26:12] <aeth> When a language is minimalist that just means you have a slow ad hoc reimplementation of something common.[20:26:33] <Atari2600> my Lua files don't have many {} . they mostly have functions :)[20:26:55] <aeth> 1-based indices in a language primarily designed to interface with C/C++ is a source of off-by-one bugs even in people experienced in the language. Why make off-by-one easier to happen when it's already common? Sure, sure, you can violate the idioms. Never violate the idioms of a language.[20:26:55] <Atari2600> the least featureful REPL is intentional, because it makes it to embed easier[20:27:23] <Atari2600> same reasons for not having datatypes. it is to reduce the footprint[20:27:25] <aeth> For a language used in gamedev, you want predictable performance. Lua is semantically designed so this is hard.[20:27:57] <Atari2600> 1-indexing is to be used internally. interfacing with C and C++ is not an issue, since you will use iterators[20:28:08] <aeth> These days, you want to use a type system for reliability. Lua is very dynamically typed. I don't think it has optional typing like many dynamic languages have added in. Dynamically typed is fine, but you want to optionally add types to certain parts that need the performance or the verification.[20:28:12] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)[20:28:19] <Atari2600> also you can use 0 indexing for your own tables if you want[20:28:32] <Atari2600> if you need reliability, don't use a scripting language then[20:28:38] <LastTalon> aeth, 1) No it won't, fix your formatting. 2) Everything is not in a table, and those parts that are aren't hard to efficiently implement. 3) You don't need to JIT everything that's a myth you've latched onto. 4) Fair point, but you can make your own REPL that works better if you so desire. I don't personally use a REPL that often. 5) Why do you need a large number of data types to solve your problems? I get by just fine with the[20:28:38] <LastTalon> same small subset of data types common to nearly any language. 6) There are very few things I find myself re-implmenting in Lua, do you have an example? 7) As discussed before 1-based indices are up to you, you can use whatever starting index you prefer.[20:28:41] <Atari2600> they give up reliability in favor of flexibility[20:29:02] <Atari2600> I completely ignored the JIT part. that was the worst claim :)[20:29:11] <aeth> Syntactic sugar is mostly lacking. += or a += equivalent or the ability to implement += is mandatory. The syntactic sugar that's there is baffling, like having foo.bar and foo["bar"] being roughly equivalent in a supposedly minimalist language. Except they're not entirely equivalent because you can have a foo["+"] so if you use the dot notation sometimes you *have* to use the [] notation.[20:29:20] <Atari2600> the += is a strawman[20:29:21] *** warweasle <warweasle!user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe26:d1db> has quit IRC (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1)[20:29:42] <Atari2600> sometimes you *have* to use the [] notation <== javascript has this thing too and I think it is ok[20:30:00] <aeth> "print 'Hello World!'" simply shouldn't be allowed. Function calls should have the explicit (). "Friendly" syntax like that just adds to the complexity.[20:30:02] <Atari2600> at least he is exposing his actual complaints[20:30:22] <Atari2600> "Function calls should have the explicit ()" your opinion. it is ok. not all styles please everyone :)[20:30:32] <aeth> "javascript has this thing too and I think it is ok" JavaScript is a dumpster fire of a language patched for 10 years into a completely different language, while retaining backwards compatibility[20:30:37] <Atari2600> lol[20:30:39] <aeth> not really an example of proglang design to hold up[20:31:43] <aeth> LastTalon: "No it won't, fix your formatting." obviously everything is on its own line and indented. I'm not going to flood IRC. "Everything is not in a table" but a table is used for too many things. I like having different representations for different things. It gives flexibility and I know for sure, with the language enforcing it, what's going on.[20:32:35] <aeth> "You don't need to JIT" For performance, you do. the non-JIT Lua is among the slowest popular languages (Ruby's still much slower). This is #gamedev so performance matters. "but you can make your own REPL that works better" that's the problem with minimalist languages like Lua. Lots of added work to do things that come for free from other languages.[20:32:40] <LastTalon> 8) Most parts of Lua should not have trouble being so performant, it should be used to extend functionality, not to reinvent entire structures of your game's core functionality. 9) I agree with the dynamic typing. I don't like dynamic type systems that much, but they are also typically easier for beginners to learn (a plus for Lua). 10) Again, the lack of syntactic sugar is an orthogonality issue, the fewer ways there are to do[20:32:40] <LastTalon> something the easier it is to read and write for beginners. Same argument. I would not mind structures to add syntactic sugar personally, however this would still pose a problem for beginner readers of the code of which there are many. 11) "friendly" syntax like this is quite common in other languages as well. Personally I don't see it very often in code except for very short snippets, so for me its a non-issue. I thought you liked[20:32:40] <LastTalon> syntactic sugar?[20:33:34] <LastTalon> aeth, If you're going to flood the chat with arguments please number them.[20:33:45] <aeth> "As discussed before 1-based indices are up to you, you can use whatever starting index you prefer." That's a lie. When there's a convention or idiom in the language, follow that. Everyone else knows/reads that, APIs written by other people will assume that, and *optimizations* might even assume that so your code might even be slower violating idioms. You're not free to violate conventions.[20:34:50] <aeth> LastTalon: as to argument #8 the problem is that modders only have access to the Lua, so they *do* wind up doing things that would be much better in the "core functionality" of the game in a more robust language, but they don't have that choice.[20:35:01] <aeth> This is how you get *very* slow mods.[20:35:18] <aeth> And if the point of Lua is mods, that's a point against it when it's really only efficient when *mixed* with C or C++[20:35:25] <LastTalon> 8) Thats a problem with the modding api then, not lua.[20:35:53] <aeth> As for "easier for beginners" I don't buy that. I used YAML as an example of something that seems easy and approachable but that just makes it basically impossible to master.[20:36:06] <LastTalon> I don't care about your yaml example. I'm not talking about yaml.[20:36:33] <aeth> LastTalon: And, yeah, it definitely is a problem with the modding API, but a more robust modding language will then mean that the modding API can be smaller![20:36:40] <aeth> Actually less work if you want elaborate mods![20:36:52] <LastTalon> What is a more robust modding language?[20:37:28] <aeth> Honestly? The mods made in C# or Java to C# or Java games tend to be really elaborate.[20:37:45] <aeth> You do have the issue that you have to trust them, though.[20:37:53] <LastTalon> I'm trying to understand what you mean by that. Because robust is not the word you're looking for.[20:38:05] <LastTalon> Do you mean less embedded?[20:38:32] <Atari2600> Survivor Bias here, but I managed to take advantage of Lua's small footprint w/o losing performance and not needing complexity for my games. I use Lua as a configuration manager, so all my game configs are stored in simple silly Lua tables and I use C++ SOL2 library to read them and transform them into meaningful C++ objects.[20:38:38] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Quit: My tummy says it's time to sleep Mr. Bubbles.)[20:38:42] <aeth> LastTalon: A minimalist language relies on the game it's embedded in to provide a lot of features. e.g. I wanted to use FP in Lua, but I could not. Someone pointed out a nice FP library but (1) it used LuaJIT and the mod was for regular Lua and (2) I would have had to have patched the game itself to support that API.[20:39:02] <LastTalon> Right, so you're talking about a less embedded and larger language.[20:39:02] <Atari2600> Lua is not FP :)[20:39:09] <aeth> So you have a minimalist language, but the game itself needs to expose a ton of extras for ergonomic purposes[20:39:19] <Atari2600> although we have functions as first class objects, like Javascript[20:39:23] <Atari2600> but it is not FP. thank god!![20:39:33] <LastTalon> So you're talking about having a larger footprint and you're typically talking about less sandboxing.[20:39:44] <LastTalon> That's a tradeoff then.[20:40:11] <aeth> I mean, yes, you see Lua because of the sandboxing, and usually people come in wanting to use Python and wind up using Lua reluctantly. e.g. I think Civ 4 used Python and Civ 5 switched to Lua, probably because of the sandboxing.[20:40:26] <LastTalon> I prefer Lua because of the sandboxing.[20:40:42] <LastTalon> It means I can know that my mod (or anyone elses) is sandboxed.[20:41:38] <LastTalon> Imo both are valid options depending on whether you want the sandboxing or not.[20:41:57] <LastTalon> But that shouldn't be the choice of someone making the plugin/mod it should be the choice of the original software the mod applies to.[20:42:07] <LastTalon> Its their software's ecosystem.[20:42:50] *** panda81 <panda81!~panda81@162.246.216.28> has joined #gamedev[20:43:53] <LastTalon> So I can agree with you that Lua requires a more robust API, but that is because of the sandboxing it provides compared to alternatives. It means that you really are limited to the featureset you want to expose in your API.[20:44:31] <LastTalon> So I agree, but I don't agree that that's a negative aspect of Lua.[20:44:45] <aeth> I think a better alternative would be to have a modular language and just restrict which libraries in the standard to permit to be importable (e.g. don't allow os if you don't want them to call os.rm())[20:45:15] <LastTalon> This is do-able to some extent in Lua.[20:45:25] <LastTalon> However it also intentionally has a small footprint.[20:45:42] <LastTalon> So its not going to be nearly as feature-rich on its own as something like python or js.[20:45:44] <aeth> But you definitely hit on the point why Lua was chosen: basically the main consideration there is sandboxing, and it is basically the only non-custom choice for that. You *can* use JS but most of the (non-browser) games that chose that route didn't really wind up liking that choice.[20:46:10] <LastTalon> Well JS has very good browsing... for a DOM[20:46:32] <LastTalon> Its just as difficult to sandbox as Lua for any other purpose.[20:47:03] <LastTalon> So yeah, I can understand that.[20:48:31] <LastTalon> I'm not claiming anything different from you in this regard I don't think. Lua is chosen for many cases because of its small footprint and its sandboxing.[20:49:06] <LastTalon> If they wanted a more feature-rich language other options are available and I think Lua would be a poor choice if that was the desire.[20:50:03] <LastTalon> Python is a very valid language if you don't much care what people do with their mod (writing files, connecting to the network, etc.) and want those facilities exposed without having to build it into the API.[20:50:57] <aeth> I'd say the problem with Python in gamedev is poor performance. PyPy might be an option, but it's not really used at the moment in gamedev, so if you did use it you'd basically have to be a pioneer thre with all of the extra hassle when you do encounter issues.[20:51:43] <LastTalon> There is always the option for poor performance, especially where amateur programming is concerned (as is with many mods, especially in games). I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a language that prevents this problem.[20:53:39] <aeth> hah, yeah, that's the problem with mods (besides the usual amateur/unfinished assets, but some of them are actually better than the stock game's assets)[20:53:55] <aeth> You'll wind up installing 80-90, constantly 100%ing your CPU, and using 10 GB RAM :-)[20:54:10] <LastTalon> You can pretty quickly scare yourself into a cold sweat by reading the code for some mods.[20:54:17] <aeth> (And if the devs did the equivalent it'd be like 3-4 DLCs, and much better performance/RAM)[20:54:30] <LastTalon> Cue the mods that multiply by looping.[20:54:44] <aeth> also, the mods that don't use arrays[20:54:54] <aeth> a1 = 42, a2 = 84, a3 = 168...[20:55:09] <LastTalon> I am still curious what you mean by tables being used too much in Lua.[20:55:42] <aeth> LastTalon: I'd at the very least want a separate array implementation. But I guess I think at a lower level than Lua.[20:56:00] <LastTalon> I could agree with that, except for that recurring orthogonality issue.[20:56:18] <LastTalon> That would mean to have to explain this weird, hard to grasp distinction for the difference between a table and array.[20:56:24] <aeth> I suspect, although I'm not writing test cases, that you could take a Lua "array", add a ["foo"] index, and then murder performance[20:56:34] <aeth> Or e.g. accidentally skip a number[20:56:37] <LastTalon> (And only for very minimal cases where it might make a significant difference)[20:57:50] <LastTalon> For the vast majority of cases I can't see it actually mattering whether its an associative array or a normal one.[20:58:16] <LastTalon> Those times when you need that kind of performance Lua might be too high level for your liking in the first place.[20:58:45] <aeth> Well, besides performance, I would never use Lua for a large project because I'd want certain data structures to be enforced rather than by convention. So much of Lua is by convention, as you've said, including the 1-based indexing.[20:58:52] <aeth> Sounds like a nightmare for beyond 2-3 people[20:59:02] <LastTalon> Well yes.[20:59:06] <LastTalon> Lua is extremely flexible that way.[20:59:14] <aeth> That's also one of the reasons why I said that Lua hits its limits in the thousands of lines[20:59:26] <LastTalon> Like... you can make really complex objects and use inheritance and polymorphism even, but its all by convention.[20:59:40] <aeth> Beyond 10,000 you'd probably want enforced structure (not necessarily static typing just... structure to things)[20:59:46] <LastTalon> I can have a neat inheritance tree and absolutely destroy it after the fact by going in and modifying it directly, subsequently screwing up the whole tree.[21:00:01] * LastTalon shrugs[21:00:26] <LastTalon> Alongside things like being passed the wrong kind of data/objects[21:00:47] <LastTalon> You can make your own "types" but they aren't real or anything.[21:00:59] <LastTalon> Nothing actually cares or can truly enforce it.[21:01:00] <aeth> yeah if you can create your own, more rigid, data structures you can say that foobar(foo)'s foo is a foo[21:01:23] <LastTalon> But all of that would disintegrate the core Lua philosophy.[21:01:26] <aeth> (not even necessarily static typing, though, you can have optional typing or even a manual check_type in foobar)[21:01:40] <LastTalon> Its made to be expressive enough for the professional while being understandable and usable to the inexpreienced.[21:01:58] <aeth> LastTalon: yeah, I don't think the core Lua philosophy makes sense for larger programs, which would include larger amounts of scripting. You could easily hit that number in a game, although whether or not you'd want to count that as one unit is up to you[21:02:06] <LastTalon> No, certainly not.[21:02:16] <aeth> A larger mod that implements new mechanics isn't fun in Lua.[21:02:21] <LastTalon> As the program gets too large you want something that is going to be more oriented to the professional.[21:03:09] <LastTalon> And definitely something like C# or Java would be much better at something implementing new core mechanics.[21:03:18] <aeth> yeah, and that's why I think Minecraft benefits from Java mods and KSP benefits from C# mods[21:03:24] <LastTalon> Unless you wanted your API to be gigantic.[21:03:46] <LastTalon> Which would be the alternative for Lua, Python, or JS actually.[21:03:55] <aeth> I mean if you're just making a platformer Lua's fine. If you're making a more simulationy game like Factorio (which uses Lua!!!) then Lua might not be the right choice[21:04:06] <LastTalon> Even in python it would be hard to interface your new mechanics without a large API.[21:04:25] <LastTalon> I've not looked at factorio's api.[21:04:31] <LastTalon> That's what this really depends on.[21:04:45] <LastTalon> If the API is expressive enough.[21:07:28] <aeth> All in one language might be the best approach for elaborate mods, even if that makes sandboxing (near) impossible. Especially if you use the same API yourself. It would still make mechanically very different mods hard, though.[21:07:53] <aeth> You'd probably have to use something like C# for that, though, and I think most people making engines probably don't want to give up C++[21:07:57] <LastTalon> Well for instance in KSP, you could make a new kind of physics simulation without access to the API.[21:08:05] <LastTalon> And use it alongside the normal one.[21:08:14] <LastTalon> Whereas with Lua that would be difficult.[21:08:20] <LastTalon> Unless the API exposed the physics simulation.[21:09:49] <LastTalon> They don't really have to give up C++[21:10:01] <LastTalon> They just have to also include the facilities for running whatever other language alongside it.[21:10:20] <LastTalon> For certain games this is a no brainer.[21:10:21] <aeth> But you'd want to write as much of the game in that other language as possible if you really want to enforce a very rich API[21:10:32] <LastTalon> KSP uses unity. Unity is C++ but runs C# already.[21:10:47] <LastTalon> All of the KSP stuff is therefore in C# already.[21:10:51] <LastTalon> Hence C# mods[21:10:56] <aeth> yes[21:11:33] <LastTalon> That's always the issue with getting a proper modding api though.[21:12:09] <LastTalon> The point is to make an extensible game. You should be able to do most of what you want in the game with some scripts.[21:12:41] <LastTalon> Making a new game mode or some dlc should effectively be a very well-made mod then.[21:12:53] <aeth> scripting and implementation in the same language (except perhaps maybe the renderer in C++) is probably the ideal here, though[21:13:04] <LastTalon> Right, precisely.[21:13:26] <LastTalon> That doesn't mean your game's api can't do any leg work though.[21:13:38] <aeth> Well, I mean, e.g. Unity gets close because of the heavy usage of C#, but an entirely-C# game would be even better for C# mods[21:13:57] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has joined #gamedev[21:14:07] <LastTalon> Well unity games are effectively c# games.[21:14:27] <aeth> I do suspect that as hardware gets stronger and performance gets better Unity will eventually be all C# and the C++ is temporary, and probably more than it could be because Unity focuses on portability to very weak systems that a PC engine doesn't have to worry about[21:14:33] <LastTalon> All of the game code is C# (for the mostpart)[21:15:26] <LastTalon> I doubt it.[21:15:38] <LastTalon> They'll probably want to keep managing their memory forever.[21:15:53] <LastTalon> Which is not a fun task in c#[21:19:00] <LastTalon> Anyway... this is basically why I like Lua in the first place though. Its a language that crosses the gap between professionals and amateurs. I would not expect to see people with no programming experience pick up C# to make a mod.[21:19:24] <solidfox> hmm[21:19:28] <LastTalon> Whereas I see people pick up Lua to make a simple mod idea who have no programming experience, but have an idea in their head.[21:19:31] <solidfox> thought c# was easy[21:19:42] <LastTalon> C# is not hard.[21:19:48] <LastTalon> But that's different from easy.[21:19:51] <solidfox> yeah i guess when you say _no_ experience, maybe lua would be better[21:19:55] <solidfox> (but i dont know lua)[21:20:02] <aeth> LastTalon: both Java and C# run on runtimes with other languages available, although I think you normally see Java and C# in mods for Java or C# games[21:20:12] <LastTalon> Would you expect the average person playing videogames to pick up C# in a day or two?[21:20:18] *** freestyledork is now known as freefork_afk[21:20:47] <solidfox> lua looks a bit like ruby[21:20:56] <LastTalon> It is a bit like ruby.[21:20:56] <aeth> You could pick up programming in a few weeks (especially if it's GCed). It'll be horrible, horrible code but it will run. A day or two is probably asking too much.[21:21:06] <LastTalon> Less focus on OOP though.[21:21:38] <LastTalon> aeth, right. That's what I mean. You can write some simple API calls in Lua in about a day though.[21:21:58] *** david2_ <david2_!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has joined #gamedev[21:21:58] <LastTalon> Get a little script written without much major trouble.[21:22:06] *** terminx <terminx!~terminx@209.58.139.15> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)[21:22:19] <LastTalon> While still being expressive enough to do much more.[21:22:21] <aeth> You'll probably want to write your own declarative and/or configuration-driven system if you want accessibility. Lua isn't that much easier.[21:22:34] <aeth> s/that much easier/that much easier than C#/[21:22:53] <solidfox> if (x != 1 && x == 0) { if (Input.pressed(W)) { if (condition_is_met == true) { ...[21:22:59] <aeth> loops, functions, data structures, etc. can be complicated[21:23:02] <solidfox> good ol newbie code[21:23:31] * solidfox nested ifs continue for 10 levels[21:24:19] <solidfox> oh wait i think that is traditionally an if within an else instead of else if[21:24:39] <LastTalon> I'll have to strongly disagree. Lua is like the paramount example of bridging the gap between experienced and novice programmers.[21:25:04] <LastTalon> It has a history of it.[21:25:21] <solidfox> ah here's a good one: https://i.redd.it/v3jdr12ye5401.png[21:26:23] <LastTalon> I like how the part that's getting to me is NameError.[21:26:36] *** terminx <terminx!~terminx@209.58.139.15> has joined #gamedev[21:26:51] <solidfox> lol its the cherry on top[21:27:32] *** david2_ <david2_!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[21:27:58] <solidfox> LastTalon: +str(table)+ was getting to me[21:28:03] <solidfox> but sometimes its ok[21:28:19] <LastTalon> I mean... I guess it doesn't hurt?[21:28:31] <LastTalon> But now that you mention it...[21:28:42] <solidfox> weell if the user was inputting into table...[21:28:54] <solidfox> or has the ability to (via dev tools)[21:29:54] <LastTalon> Its still gotta be the NameError for me.[21:29:58] <LastTalon> I see this all the time.[21:30:04] <aeth> LastTalon: You can use files of Lua tables a lot like a configuration-driven system that I was talking about, probably more than most languages... but then you go back to the ultra-dynamicness of it that we were talking about earlier. A separate config-only system can have verification when loading.[21:30:07] <LastTalon> Some weird code with questionable choices.[21:30:13] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has joined #gamedev[21:30:16] <LastTalon> But then there's just some baffling choice that you cannot even fathom.[21:30:25] <LastTalon> Like... why a NameError?[21:30:35] <LastTalon> Why did they choose that in particular?[21:30:42] <solidfox> cause they're a n00b[21:31:11] <LastTalon> But its not like its the first error you come across.[21:31:17] <LastTalon> They clearly know how to raise an error.[21:31:23] <LastTalon> Why THAT one[21:31:29] <solidfox> LastTalon: oh i know why[21:31:42] <solidfox> LastTalon: here's r/programmerhumour's best kept secret[21:31:59] <solidfox> LastTalon: if you want free karma, just make up some bad code, post it, and rake in the free internet points!![21:32:03] <LastTalon> All I ever see on r/programmerhumour is deleted posts.[21:32:12] <solidfox> ah[21:32:29] <LastTalon> Cuz they "don't meet the rules for [blah blah blah]..."[21:32:43] <solidfox> in other words, an experienced programmer probably wrote this shit, chose NameError to be extra annoying, and then claimed a n00b did it[21:32:43] <LastTalon> I just wanna see the funny posts, man.[21:32:53] <LastTalon> That's possible.[21:32:54] <aeth> LastTalon: I think they're parodying StackOverflow there, I guess?[21:33:01] <LastTalon> But I mean having read peoples' actual code.[21:33:07] <LastTalon> That they're looking for actual help with.[21:33:13] <LastTalon> And I still see this kind of thing.[21:33:19] <solidfox> NameError?[21:33:23] <solidfox> yeah its a mystery[21:33:27] <LastTalon> Not NameError specifically.[21:33:29] <LastTalon> But similar stuff.[21:33:33] <LastTalon> Where it defies explanation.[21:33:48] <LastTalon> Just the particular choice they've come across on something and shows up in their code.[21:33:58] <solidfox> well maybe they saw a tutorial that used NameError correctly[21:34:06] <LastTalon> Right, that's what I assume.[21:34:07] <solidfox> and they just thought that is the only way to write it[21:34:14] <LastTalon> Some tutorial somewhere was explaining something and used something correctly.[21:34:40] <LastTalon> And then they took it and used it incorrectly without understanding what they're copying.[21:35:21] <LastTalon> And because its valid syntactically they never realize it was wrong.[21:35:34] <LastTalon> The eternal struggle.[21:35:46] <solidfox> so uh[21:35:51] <LastTalon> Trying to explain to novice programmers why something can be semantically wrong while being syntactically correct.[21:35:55] <solidfox> if i want to take this game making thing seriously[21:36:00] <solidfox> but i cant afford college[21:36:13] <LastTalon> You don't need to go to college to make games.[21:36:16] <solidfox> (i refuse to pay into their stupid endowment!!)[21:36:27] <LastTalon> I sort of liked college.[21:36:36] <LastTalon> It was good I think to formalize my education.[21:36:39] <solidfox> whats a good book to learn making games in unity and to learn core concepts that i need to know[21:36:51] <LastTalon> Couldn't tell you a book on that.[21:37:11] <solidfox> like ok whats a good book to like learn the trade of game making so to speak[21:37:12] <LastTalon> My advice would be to gain a good general programming knowledge and then a good specific unity knowledge.[21:37:28] *** batman_nair <batman_nair!~batman_na@111.92.77.160> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[21:37:35] <LastTalon> Probably also do some research into how the game dev process generally works.[21:37:41] <solidfox> LastTalon: i happen to know what a mesh is from using blender in the past. but there are other things i dont understand[21:37:42] *** noizex <noizex!~noizex@solitary.ninja> has joined #gamedev[21:38:10] <LastTalon> solidfox, well can you elaborate on what it is you hope to do in game dev? Like the whole show or one aspect, or what?[21:38:23] <LastTalon> I'll brb, but I'll read it when I'm back.[21:38:23] <solidfox> i think mobile game dev[21:38:37] <solidfox> ok[21:38:48] <solidfox> man i need a mac![21:39:55] *** david2_ <david2_!~davidbach@212-186-25-215.cable.dynamic.surfer.at> has joined #gamedev[21:41:54] <LastTalon> I was hoping you'd elaborate more.[21:41:58] <LastTalon> I'm back, btw.[21:42:13] <solidfox> welcome back[21:42:27] <LastTalon> So you want to do mobile dev, but are you interested in doing like... programming, 2d art, 3d art, sound design, music?[21:42:36] <LastTalon> Are you planning on working alone or with a team?[21:42:45] <LastTalon> What kinds of games are you planning on making?[21:43:07] <solidfox> with a team hopefully, i am pretty good at programming, and i could maybe do a little bit of 3d art and 2d art[21:43:13] <LastTalon> Did you want to make web games, native games, games using an engine, rolling your own engine?[21:43:36] <solidfox> i think you know using an engine is the best way to make a game. im really in this for the money[21:43:46] <solidfox> i want to start like a game making business[21:43:56] <LastTalon> I know that, and you might know that, but that doesn't stop people from being ardently against it.[21:44:39] <solidfox> yes well im thinking that there are many mobile games that look fun. i saw a chinese lady next to me on a plane once playing a game on her tablet[21:44:50] <LastTalon> Cuz engines "force you into a pattern of development" and other platitudes.[21:45:10] <LastTalon> Lol[21:45:12] <solidfox> LastTalon: so making your own engine is the best way to develop exactly what you want[21:45:23] <LastTalon> Right, but that's time consuming.[21:45:33] *** brainzap <brainzap!~brainzap@217.22.129.78> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[21:45:33] <LastTalon> Its the kind of things large studios do.[21:45:51] <solidfox> yes. i mean the entity component system, the finite state machine, the opengl not to mention supporting multiple libraries[21:45:53] <LastTalon> Usually best to start out working with one that exists and is available.[21:45:59] <solidfox> and doing things efficiently[21:46:09] <solidfox> LastTalon: right so why did you bring it up[21:46:23] <solidfox> LastTalon: like i already said using an engine from the beginning[21:46:23] <LastTalon> Cuz I need to know where you stand to give you good advice.[21:46:59] <solidfox> LastTalon: they dont ask college students these things, you enroll in a game design course and they tell you which textbook to buy[21:47:01] <LastTalon> So yeah, I mean my advice is largely the same. Good programming knowledge to start. Try to avoid biasing yourself.[21:47:16] <LastTalon> Yeah, but I don't have that kind of time to teach you from first principles.[21:47:24] <LastTalon> I have to work with what I've got.[21:47:28] <solidfox> but which book do i buy[21:47:44] <solidfox> im not asking you to teach me lol[21:48:18] <LastTalon> Well, for programming books I could give you a list. I don't really have one definitive programming book.[21:48:58] <solidfox> i finished the rolling ball game tutorial on unity by kinda referencing the completed game sccene they give you[21:49:29] <solidfox> but i made my own pickup item, it looks like a diamond shaped target from MGS vr missions[21:49:46] <LastTalon> What kinds of things have you programmed outside of game dev?[21:49:55] <solidfox> its transparent but has a strange effect, where it looks like you cant see the edge facing you, but the internal edges only[21:51:11] <solidfox> LastTalon: i was a web developer for 2 and a half years. it was a program for helping a non-profit organize all their data, sell memberships, do billing, accounting, shceduling, etc[21:51:40] <solidfox> and i also converted the data of new clients to bring them in[21:51:44] <LastTalon> Okay, so what was your role in web dev?[21:51:46] <solidfox> by writing programs[21:52:00] <Donitzo> obviously writing javascript+html+css[21:52:04] <Donitzo> doubt he was part of a large team[21:52:07] <solidfox> LastTalon: fix things and add new features according to the design laid out by the team[21:52:08] *** v1c7 <v1c7!~v1c7@112.79.137.9> has joined #gamedev[21:52:14] <Donitzo> oo[21:52:20] <solidfox> Donitzo: vb.net too[21:52:40] <Donitzo> no love for asp?[21:52:40] <solidfox> and i used python to automate some things, or to reformat data better[21:52:47] <solidfox> Donitzo: whats asp[21:53:05] <LastTalon> asp.net[21:53:25] <solidfox> no we did mvc.net[21:53:35] <LastTalon> Mkay.[21:53:54] <Donitzo> what types of games do you want to make[21:54:04] <solidfox> Donitzo: mobile games[21:54:05] <LastTalon> How would you say your knowledge of data structures is?[21:54:09] <Donitzo> 2d or 3d?[21:54:20] *** immibis <immibis!~immibis@125-238-72-168-fibre.sparkbb.co.nz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[21:54:26] <solidfox> Donitzo: 3d would look better[21:54:46] <Donitzo> yeah, unity is still a good choice[21:55:16] <solidfox> LastTalon: yes i know about hash maps, sets, graphs, binary trees, breadth first search, depth first search, finite state machine, linked-lists, and more[21:55:30] <myke> just start coding[21:55:34] <LastTalon> Well that's good. How's your object oriented design knowledge?[21:55:36] <Donitzo> good, though like 5 of those things are only really useful in culling/pathfinding[21:55:55] <Donitzo> also, BehaviourTrees![21:55:59] <LastTalon> If you're good on those probably just start making games.[21:56:00] <Donitzo> God I want to make a game with behaviour trees[21:56:20] <LastTalon> Learn how unity works, do some tutorials maybe.[21:56:34] <solidfox> man what a waste of time![21:56:55] <solidfox> LastTalon: isnt it slower to just dive in without having knowledge first[21:56:57] <Donitzo> no it's fairly fast[21:57:03] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has joined #gamedev[21:57:08] <solidfox> terms definitions workflows[21:57:09] <LastTalon> solidfox, you have the knowledge you need.[21:57:15] <Donitzo> first just learn how to organize your project[21:57:22] <Donitzo> ie how to organize the actual physical folders[21:57:29] <LastTalon> If you lacked sufficient programming knowledge, probably, but it sounds like you're fine.[21:57:56] <LastTalon> Its really a matter of learning how unity operates, learning its api, and learning how to construct a game.[21:58:03] <LastTalon> You'll learn those best by using the engine.[21:58:19] <solidfox> so just reading the docs[21:58:28] <LastTalon> Reading the docs, but use the engine.[21:58:40] <LastTalon> You'll quickly find things that don't meet your expectations of reading the docs.[21:58:42] <solidfox> still. i dont know whats wrong with my 3d model[21:58:51] <solidfox> idk if i could be the 3d artist :/[21:59:02] <solidfox> or even be of much help :/[21:59:13] <LastTalon> Whats wrong with your 3D art?[21:59:16] <Donitzo> http://wiki.unity3d.com/index.php/Scripts[21:59:21] <Donitzo> look through all of these[21:59:24] <Donitzo> to get some ideas[21:59:35] <Donitzo> http://wiki.unity3d.com/index.php/Ocean[21:59:38] <Donitzo> here's one of my components[22:00:09] <solidfox> let me take a pic[22:01:29] <LastTalon> Of course if you get stuck ask for help.[22:01:33] *** jlebrech <jlebrech!~jlebrech@89.165.136.2> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[22:01:40] <LastTalon> But you'll learn a lot by trying things in unity.[22:01:55] <david2_> is there any professional on this channel ?[22:03:56] <solidfox> https://imgur.com/a/wZ5qK6L[22:04:20] <LastTalon> solidfox, your normals are inverted.[22:04:36] <solidfox> normals are inverted?[22:04:42] <solidfox> see thats why i need to read a book[22:04:44] <solidfox> idk what it means[22:04:51] <LastTalon> Each vertex has a facing direction.[22:04:56] <LastTalon> They're facing the opposite way.[22:05:04] <LastTalon> So it looks inside out.[22:05:13] <solidfox> its also transparent[22:05:21] <solidfox> but yeah, that seems likely[22:05:22] <LastTalon> Well thats what it looks like when its inside out.[22:05:31] <LastTalon> The back side of a vertex isn't rendered.[22:05:38] <solidfox> lets see. so i should google "blender normals inverted?:[22:05:45] <LastTalon> Face rather.[22:05:48] <LastTalon> Not vertex.[22:06:03] <myke> just start coding[22:06:13] <LastTalon> solidfox, does it look that way in blender?[22:06:14] <myke> then go back and learn when you get stuck or realize you can't do what you need to do next[22:06:18] <LastTalon> Its probably just an issue when it imported.[22:06:23] <myke> what won't make a game, is endlessly typing on irc[22:06:49] <myke> david2_: there are but they've learned to rarely chat[22:06:57] <Atari2600> so I went out, took a dump, went to a boring meeting and now I am eating cinnamon marshmallows[22:07:07] <solidfox> LastTalon: ah[22:07:10] <Atari2600> I will take that now the Lua superiority was settled :)[22:07:13] <solidfox> i think so because it looks right in blender[22:07:31] <LastTalon> solidfox, a quick search tells me to check your scale in blender. It might have a negative scale.[22:07:47] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[22:08:34] <LastTalon> solidfox, but this is the exact reason why you should just go ahead and make stuff. You'll work through these issues and improve.[22:08:46] *** krychu <krychu!~krychu@2a02:1205:505c:2ab0:cdf7:6cdb:981f:1305> has quit IRC (Quit: krychu)[22:08:59] <LastTalon> If you need help, you can certainly ask, but you gotta do it to have a chance at improving.[22:09:56] <david2_> you should pick a udemy class solidfox for 10 bucks this ll probably help you.[22:10:15] <LastTalon> Yeah, there are things like that if you so desire.[22:10:30] <solidfox> david2_: no[22:10:32] <solidfox> lol[22:10:36] <solidfox> im a reader[22:11:04] <solidfox> udemy is idk, its just paid tutorial-quality content[22:11:13] <david2_> and ?[22:11:24] <LastTalon> I mean you can get plenty of free tutorials[22:11:28] <solidfox> yes[22:11:35] <david2_> you dont want to pay 10 bucks lol[22:11:42] <solidfox> if i wanted to watch terrible tutorials i'd get free ones on youtube[22:11:48] <LastTalon> Not when I can get the same content for free[22:11:58] <solidfox> anyways..[22:11:59] <david2_> some a far to be terrible ...[22:12:01] <david2_> are[22:12:18] <solidfox> LastTalon: im looking at scale, it says 1,1,1[22:12:23] <david2_> but yeah its your choice of course[22:13:22] <LastTalon> solidfox, check your normals in blender.[22:13:37] <LastTalon> Are your normals accidentally inverted in blender?[22:14:04] <solidfox> LastTalon: i set them to double sided[22:14:41] <LastTalon> solidfox, turn that off and check which way they're facing?[22:16:07] <LastTalon> I suspect that's something only being rendered that way on the blender side, because when in unity its clearly not got polygons with normals facing that side.[22:16:36] <solidfox> still inverted[22:16:57] *** v1c7 <v1c7!~v1c7@112.79.137.9> has left #gamedev ("Leaving")[22:17:53] <LastTalon> Can you show a picture of your normals in blender?[22:21:09] <solidfox> it says Target (thats the name of my object) -> Normals: checkbox Doublie-sided, checkbox auto-smooth, angle 0[22:21:55] *** rindolf <rindolf!~rindolf@77.125.57.214> has joined #gamedev[22:22:10] <LastTalon> solidfox, there should be a tool that shows you which direction each normal faces.[22:22:33] <solidfox> i found a flip normals button[22:23:04] <LastTalon> solidfox, https://i.stack.imgur.com/kKBoF.png[22:24:41] <solidfox> it worked[22:24:48] <LastTalon> Sounds good.[22:24:53] <solidfox> LastTalon: ah thanks i was looking for it[22:24:55] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has joined #gamedev[22:25:03] <solidfox> i do want to know how to see the normal[22:25:26] <LastTalon> Its apparently fairly easy to do if you aren't aware of it or aren't paying attention.[22:25:41] <solidfox> wait where is it[22:25:56] *** DaScoot <DaScoot!~Scooter@static-24-153-33-9.cpe.metrocast.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Bye)[22:26:18] <solidfox> got it[22:26:30] <LastTalon> Partially because modeling tools let you easily switch between different modes to let you see different things and do things like flip normals.[22:26:42] <LastTalon> And in certain modes you won't see it happening.[22:27:40] <solidfox> i didnt know about this[22:28:15] <solidfox> so im thinking going in and learning about flipping normals here today was like top down. i had an issue and i needed someone to tell me the terms[22:28:30] <LastTalon> I don't really know much about the 3D modeling process or specifics of tools, but I do know a good deal about 3D models themselves, how they're constructed and their technical aspects.[22:29:15] <solidfox> but a bottom up approach is more independent, like reading learning studying the terms, and it could lead to me knowing what to looking for when I encounter a problem.[22:30:01] <solidfox> ive ascended up to programmer level, now i need to knowledge to rise to game developer level[22:30:20] <solidfox> need to gain*[22:30:38] <solidfox> LastTalon: yes thats what i need to learn[22:30:44] <LastTalon> Its sort of the other way around.[22:30:58] <LastTalon> But you get the idea.[22:31:01] *** Buoy172 <Buoy172!~Buoy172@95.86.6.187> has joined #gamedev[22:31:10] <solidfox> LastTalon: not a particular tool or process but 3d models, how they're constructed, and their technical aspects[22:31:17] <solidfox> thats what i need to know[22:31:21] <solidfox> learn*[22:31:45] <LastTalon> Top down would be starting with the theory.[22:31:54] <LastTalon> Bottom up is starting with the process.[22:32:12] <solidfox> oic[22:32:17] <solidfox> yes i think i like top down[22:32:20] <LastTalon> It can do good to benefit from flipping if you're stuck though.[22:32:26] <LastTalon> And that's important to realize.[22:32:51] <LastTalon> If you've started with one and you just can't understand a concept or problem you might understand it better by starting from the other direction.[22:32:51] <solidfox> is there a good book on general game making theory[22:33:46] <LastTalon> I don't know of any.[22:34:07] <solidfox> yes guess i'll just have to hope i can come up with the right words to describe issues i run into then[22:34:30] <LastTalon> Don't worry about the terms.[22:34:55] <LastTalon> What's important is that you understand what's going on. You can worry about what those things are called later.[22:35:39] <solidfox> r u trying to sabotage me or what[22:35:59] <LastTalon> No. Its fairly common for people to not be aware of a term for something.[22:36:16] <solidfox> but the person who solves the problem knows the term[22:36:24] <solidfox> like you when you said my normals were inverted[22:36:30] <LastTalon> I had been using higher order functions and closures for years without knowing they had a name.[22:36:36] * LastTalon shrugs[22:37:04] <solidfox> closures are pretty easy[22:37:21] <LastTalon> solidfox, usually people know the term because they've had prior experience with something. I know about normals because I know how 3D models are rendered.[22:37:38] <solidfox> LastTalon: oh yeah, where'ed you learn that?[22:38:02] <solidfox> dont say udemy[22:38:12] <LastTalon> I learned opengl. I also had a class in college about 3D graphics.[22:38:31] <solidfox> yes a class, a professor, and a textbook[22:38:47] <LastTalon> I don't think I ever opened the textbook.[22:39:09] <solidfox> LastTalon: what do you do for work[22:39:34] <LastTalon> Its not related to game dev if that's what you want to know.[22:39:40] <solidfox> well im also curious[22:39:43] <solidfox> if you dont mind[22:40:00] <LastTalon> Its complicated at the moment. I'd prefer not to discuss.[22:40:05] <solidfox> oh ok my bad[22:40:10] <LastTalon> NP[22:43:27] <R2robot> https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/07/github-free-users-now-get-unlimited-private-repositories/[22:43:39] <R2robot> RIP bitbucket and gitlab?[22:44:10] <LastTalon> I was expecting this change actually.[22:44:24] <R2robot> yer a wizard, LastTalon[22:44:35] <LastTalon> Well it only makes sense from a business/marketing perspective.[22:44:50] <LastTalon> That's the big thing competitors had over github[22:44:58] <R2robot> also, it makes sense that microsoft would want to undercut all competitors :D[22:45:06] <LastTalon> Yeah. :D[22:45:07] <LastTalon> :P[22:45:24] <LastTalon> Meanwhile everyone else said the reverse would happen.[22:45:25] <LastTalon> Lol[22:45:29] <R2robot> RIP all the dead companies left in their wake[22:45:33] <LastTalon> That microsoft would start charging for public repos[22:45:33] <R2robot> lol[22:45:34] <solidfox> R2robot: wow i was hoping for that[22:45:37] <LastTalon> And crap like that.[22:45:46] <LastTalon> Why would they do that? It would be a terrible business move.[22:45:52] <solidfox> i keep creating and delting my tetris clone[22:45:59] <solidfox> now i can just make it private[22:46:05] <solidfox> along with my repl-loop exploit script[22:46:20] <R2robot> I used pay github for private repos until I lost my job. lol[22:46:29] <solidfox> rip[22:46:30] <LastTalon> Darn.[22:46:44] <R2robot> I never really liked bitbucket, but been using it for the free private repos[22:46:51] <LastTalon> But this is what I told people.[22:47:01] <R2robot> BACK TO THE GITHUBS![22:47:02] <solidfox> yes i should probably start cutting expenses as well. no more electric, no more high speed internet, no more rent. just live in a tent[22:47:17] <R2robot> solidfox: solid plan[22:47:18] <LastTalon> You're also likely to see other changes regarding public repos and enterprise accounts.[22:47:20] <solidfox> connect to library via cantenna[22:47:27] <LastTalon> s/public/private/[22:47:46] <R2robot> LastTalon: yeah, TAX THE RICH (enterprises)![22:47:58] <LastTalon> They're going to be restructuring those aspects.[22:48:02] <R2robot> let us poor people eat cake and free repos[22:48:04] <LastTalon> R2robot, I mean basically.[22:48:28] <LastTalon> The changes are most likely going to be regarding which plans have how many collaborators and whatnot.[22:48:41] <R2robot> definitely[22:48:42] <LastTalon> What those collaborators can do on which repos[22:48:51] <LastTalon> You'll probably see new enterprise features rolling out[22:49:25] <LastTalon> And in general more flexibility for all users in the form of being able to do some new things (or things being less restricted that were before, such as this).[22:49:29] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has joined #gamedev[22:49:58] <LastTalon> Its kind of microsoft's MO at the moment. They want developers on their side.[22:50:11] <R2robot> my guesses were never about privite repos or collab numbers, but about pushing windows tools. Hopefully they're beyond that these days since they're working with linux stuff a bit[22:50:15] <LastTalon> So anything they do will be oriented to make developers happy with the changes.[22:50:36] <LastTalon> You'll probably see pushing microsoft tools to some extent.[22:50:48] <LastTalon> But I doubt it'll be very intrusive.[22:51:16] *** Serpent7776 <Serpent7776!~Serpent77@90-156-31-193.internetia.net.pl> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[22:51:17] <LastTalon> It'll be things like "hey, look how easy it is to do stuff on github from visual studio, and look how easily github supports microsoft's format."[22:52:04] <LastTalon> But they'll be careful not to take away from the functionality people already use and like.[22:52:09] <LastTalon> To avoid pushing developers away.[22:53:20] <LastTalon> Honestly its going to creep in somewhere some day, but their motive in acquiring github is not to push their agenda. Its to turn developers to their side, plain and simple.[22:53:58] <R2robot> i don't mind them pushing MS tools, it's the windows only tools I'm worried about[22:54:02] *** krychu <krychu!~krychu@2a02:1205:505c:2ab0:cdf7:6cdb:981f:1305> has joined #gamedev[22:54:02] *** gogoprog <gogoprog!~gogoprog@2a02:a03f:44f0:6600:71a2:8b47:f039:570d> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[22:54:10] <R2robot> as they've historically done[22:54:31] <LastTalon> They look at it and say, "Hey, every developer in the world knows what github is. If we make github ours and make it continue to be good or even slightly better, people will gravitate to our side and say, hey microsoft isn't that bad."[22:54:37] <R2robot> as well as their 'embrace and extend' tactics when using open standards and then extending them to break shit[22:54:53] <R2robot> I still have trust issues with them[22:55:00] <LastTalon> I can't say for certain on that windows only thing.[22:55:07] <LastTalon> But I think they know it would be a poor move.[22:55:15] *** gogoprog <gogoprog!~gogoprog@2a02:a03f:44f0:6600:71a2:8b47:f039:570d> has joined #gamedev[22:55:35] <R2robot> remember when they bought hotmail? lol[22:55:58] <LastTalon> Its entirely possible for them to do that still.[22:56:06] <LastTalon> But it would basically tank their entire tactic.[22:56:28] <R2robot> "we're going to convert all the freeBSD servers running hotmail perfectly fine to Windows NT servers to prove how great it is...." RIP hotmail. lol[22:56:29] <LastTalon> I'm pretty sure they realize they can't net people in that way.[22:57:19] <LastTalon> I mean, look at it this way.[22:57:45] <LastTalon> If they just wanted a website for hosting repositories they could have bought bitbucket or gitlab or anything for a lot less money.[22:58:00] <LastTalon> Like... if they wanted to take it and turn it into their own little version of github.[22:58:26] <LastTalon> But instead they bought github. They aren't trying to buy the software, they're trying to buy the community.[22:58:48] <R2robot> they're trying to buy trust as well[22:58:52] <R2robot> it's going to take time.[22:58:55] <R2robot> a long time[22:59:02] <R2robot> to repair all the damage they've done[22:59:14] <R2robot> maybe not for the younger folks[22:59:15] <LastTalon> Right. So to that end, they want to build trust by primarily keeping github the same. Giving people things that they really like.[22:59:31] <solidfox> i think im ready to make a metal gear solid clone[22:59:32] <R2robot> but for us old(er)-timers, they have a LOT of repair work to do[22:59:34] <LastTalon> Doing things people would never have expected github to do (that they like)[22:59:41] <solidfox> lol[22:59:45] <LastTalon> R2robot, obviously.[22:59:45] <solidfox> nvm[22:59:49] <LastTalon> Lol[23:00:04] <LastTalon> So giving free private repos is exactly the kind of thing microsoft wants to do.[23:00:16] <LastTalon> They want people to like daddy microsoft for giving them free private repos[23:00:24] <R2robot> yep. and I love/hate that Im happy about the move. LOL[23:00:32] <R2robot> trust issues are hard to repair. :D[23:00:44] <LastTalon> I really hope that windows just becomes a linux OS.[23:00:46] <LastTalon> Lol[23:00:50] <R2robot> lol[23:00:58] <Atari2600> lol[23:01:19] <LastTalon> Who likes NT anyway?[23:01:42] <LastTalon> Just rebrand it.[23:01:47] <LastTalon> Make windows the OS, screw NT.[23:01:54] <LastTalon> Its now Windows/Linux[23:01:56] <LastTalon> :D[23:02:03] <R2robot> oh man, NT had its super fanboys back in the day[23:02:15] *** RandomCouch <RandomCouch!~RandomSof@207.219.200.115> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[23:02:29] *** ShadowIce <ShadowIce!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[23:02:48] <Atari2600> yeah[23:02:52] <Atari2600> it was a nice jobkeeper :)[23:03:00] <LastTalon> I mean... I think my point may have been missed.[23:03:03] <LastTalon> We're still on NT[23:03:07] <LastTalon> Windows 10 is NT 10[23:03:10] <Atari2600> ...[23:03:16] <LastTalon> Get rid of NT[23:03:23] <solidfox> Microsoft Linux[23:03:23] <LastTalon> NT is the actual thing people hate.[23:03:28] <solidfox> has a nice ring to it[23:03:59] <R2robot> click click reboot, "LOOK I'M AN NT ADMIN!"[23:04:42] <solidfox> super l33t visual basic NT server IT in the cloud[23:05:32] <R2robot> I actually used the 'click click reboot' line at my last interview lol[23:05:56] <solidfox> we call windows with linux windows but we call GNU with linux linux.. smh[23:05:58] <LastTalon> Hired![23:06:07] <R2robot> Q: we have a couple of things that run on windows, are you able to handle that? Me: It's just click click reboot, right?[23:06:10] <R2robot> lol[23:06:12] <LastTalon> solidfox, that was part of the joke. :P[23:06:33] <solidfox> LastTalon: :P[23:06:34] <LastTalon> We also call android android.[23:06:54] *** freefork_afk is now known as freestyledork[23:07:12] <LastTalon> Honestly. I'm only half joking though.[23:07:21] <LastTalon> It seems like a plausible future move for windows.[23:07:25] <Atari2600> the scheduled reboots are the worst thing of Windows 10[23:07:27] <R2robot> (i didn't have anything windows related on my resume)[23:07:30] <LastTalon> They aren't really interested in actually developing the OS that way anymore.[23:07:47] <LastTalon> (By which I mean the OS/kernel hybrid)[23:07:51] <Atari2600> Windows just went full retard[23:07:54] <Atari2600> never go full retard[23:08:07] <R2robot> when your CEO is full retard though[23:08:09] <solidfox> LastTalon: isnt windows 10 their last release though. switching to linux would necessiate a windows 10 2[23:08:09] <LastTalon> So I wouldn't be surprised if they picked up windows and plopped it onto linux.[23:08:18] <LastTalon> Or if they just make a flavor of GNU/Linux[23:08:35] <LastTalon> solidfox, it would be their last release...[23:08:56] <solidfox> also former windows programs wouldnt be compatible would they?[23:09:00] <Buoy172> windows 10 is last because it updates[23:09:00] <LastTalon> The new OS wouldn't really be a new windows.[23:09:21] <Buoy172> instead of making new releases they will just update windows till infinity[23:09:26] <Buoy172> I mean till WW3[23:09:29] <LastTalon> No, there wouldn't really be the same sort of backward compatability.[23:09:36] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[23:09:45] <LastTalon> Like I said before. We're still on NT. That's why there's so much backward compatability.[23:09:57] <solidfox> yes so like 90% of their software base becomes deprecated[23:10:06] <LastTalon> But there could be a pretty good compatibility layer still.[23:10:26] <LastTalon> Think like... wine, but made by the people who know how exes are supposed to operate.[23:10:37] <LastTalon> Or at least are supposed to[23:11:04] <Atari2600> "puny user! you are no longer allowed big uptimes! this is for your own good"[23:11:23] <LastTalon> Also uwp stuff would still work.[23:11:35] <LastTalon> Honestly all their moves so far could easily lead up to swapping to Linux[23:11:37] <Atari2600> "ooh! you were running a web server in your machine??? too bad! but we have this very affordable corporate solution!!!!!!"[23:12:42] <Atari2600> "also we gonna backup all your personal data by default! you may disable this feature later, but no later than we could exploit it and trace a profile of you, my fellow sheeple consumer"[23:12:53] <LastTalon> Calling a shot. Could be very wrong on this, but I feel lucky.[23:13:01] <LastTalon> Windows acquiring ubuntu[23:13:05] <Atari2600> the last sentence also happened in my windows 8. wheeee[23:18:14] <LastTalon> "Some people say graphics aren't important. But every game I've ever played always had them." Q.E.D.[23:18:19] <LastTalon> Lol[23:18:38] <Atari2600> except by Dwarf Fortress players[23:27:51] *** alystar <alystar!~alystar@2601:148:4200:36c7:d412:5414:67f3:2594> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[23:28:43] <solidfox> in a 4 dimensional game[23:28:53] <solidfox> could you have an object that is flat with 3 sides[23:29:22] <solidfox> wait no thats not flat[23:29:25] <solidfox> nvm dumb question[23:29:31] <LastTalon> A triangle is flat with 3 sides.[23:29:38] <LastTalon> And it only requires 2 dimensions.[23:29:45] * LastTalon shrugs[23:30:06] <solidfox> LastTalon: no it has 3 edges[23:30:11] <solidfox> and two sides[23:30:21] <LastTalon> Edges are the same as sides.[23:30:31] <solidfox> no i meant like a face[23:30:36] <LastTalon> Thats a face then.[23:30:44] <LastTalon> Sides are just what you call edges in 2D[23:30:48] <solidfox> see the definition of 1-sided here: http://www.timaxmedia.com/html/help/Glossary_of_3D_Terms_.htm[23:31:07] <solidfox> also see the definition of 2-sided[23:31:22] <LastTalon> That only makes sense in the context of talking about a polygon already.[23:31:29] *** NiniGeo2 <NiniGeo2!~NiniGeo2@c-73-178-72-18.hsd1.nj.comcast.net> has joined #gamedev[23:31:37] <LastTalon> You'd have to specify.[23:33:28] *** Glasstree <Glasstree!~Glasstree@82-71-48-195.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[23:34:23] <LastTalon> To answer your question, no.[23:34:42] <LastTalon> "sidedness" as I'll call it is an artifact of the way we render graphics.[23:34:51] <LastTalon> We can really only ever render 2D images.[23:35:27] <LastTalon> So we basically make a list of polygons and to draw on the screen, then project them from a certain angle and perspective to draw the image of that object on the screen.[23:35:46] <solidfox> yes the MVP right?[23:35:53] <solidfox> model view projection matrices[23:35:59] <LastTalon> The sidedness here is only referring to whether we can see each polygon from only one direction or both directions.[23:36:27] <LastTalon> So it doesn't matter how many dimensions you're projecting into 2D, each polygon rendered in 2D would only have a maximum of two sides.[23:36:52] <LastTalon> Effectively, is it facing the screen or facing away from the screen.[23:36:54] <solidfox> ah ok[23:37:28] <LastTalon> If you want to talk about the math its more complicated.[23:38:01] <solidfox> my next project is going to be to duplicate a mobile game[23:38:07] <LastTalon> Just as in 3D there's more than facing the screen and facing away from the screen (You could be at 180 degrees, 90 degrees, 133 degrees, etc.), there are more in 4D and so on.[23:38:21] <LastTalon> But once its projected its just down to a binary option.[23:38:26] <LastTalon> Its either facing it or its not.[23:38:32] <LastTalon> It gets rendered or it doesn't.[23:40:00] <solidfox> does 1 sided save memory resources or cpu cycles[23:40:03] <LastTalon> In 4D you can have entire cells facing away from the view in fact.[23:40:28] <LastTalon> Well its more to do with the gpu[23:40:45] <NiniGeo2> For hardware-accelerated rendering, 1-sided geometry saves a small amount of GPU rendering performance, since the rasterizer can skip rasterizing back-facing polygons.[23:40:52] <LastTalon> Basically if something is facing away from the current perspective there's nothing to render.[23:41:22] <LastTalon> But if its 2 sided it would have to render it if its not known to be hidden.[23:41:29] <LastTalon> Which is often.[23:44:58] <Atari2600> what is 4D?[23:45:35] <LastTalon> Its like 3D but one more.[23:45:42] <NiniGeo2> I'm guessing it is in reference to having 4 spatial dimensions, such as the game Miegakure.[23:46:29] <LastTalon> That is the way I interpreted it.[23:47:56] <Atari2600> still don't know what would be the 4th dimension[23:48:24] <LastTalon> Atari2600, its like the difference between 2D and 3D.[23:48:38] <Atari2600> no. it's not[23:48:44] <Atari2600> don't avoid my question, please[23:48:47] <LastTalon> Umm... yes it is.[23:48:58] <Atari2600> you were mad at aeth because of that[23:49:00] <NiniGeo2> Mathematically I think it's just having a fourth dimension in your vectors. Instead of 3-vectors, all points are represented instead by 4-vectors.[23:49:03] <Atari2600> don't be like the same[23:49:16] <LastTalon> A 4th spatial dimension is a fourth orthogonal direction to the 3 others in 3D[23:49:17] <Atari2600> NiniGeo2, we can have infinite dimensions mathematically[23:49:23] <NiniGeo2> That's true Atari2600 :)[23:49:35] <LastTalon> You have 4 perpendicular axes of motion.[23:49:44] <Atari2600> I want to know what is the 4th dimension now. in the context of this discussion. why I would want to add a fucking 4th dimension in a game, for example[23:49:53] <Atari2600> and LastTalon does not have a fucking idea[23:49:56] <NiniGeo2> The tough part, I would imagine, would be in figuring out a good projection matrix from 4D to a 2D homogenous clip space so that you can do hardware accelerated polygon rendering with existing GPUs.[23:50:00] <Atari2600> but he is pretending that he does[23:50:02] <Atari2600> that is what pisses me off[23:50:03] <LastTalon> Atari2600, can you fucking cut it out.[23:50:08] <LastTalon> I'm explaining it to you and you're being a twat[23:50:13] <Atari2600> no. you are not[23:50:19] <Atari2600> if you were explaining it, I would be very grateful[23:50:26] <LastTalon> I am explaining it you're just ignoring me.[23:50:29] <Atari2600> ...[23:50:29] <LastTalon> So piss of[23:50:50] <NiniGeo2> Atari2600 you should check out some gameplay videos of some 4D games, such as Miegakure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yW--eQaA2I[23:50:50] <solidfox> woah that is a cool game[23:50:53] <solidfox> im gonna play it[23:50:56] <NiniGeo2> It's a cool puzzle game, right? :)[23:51:16] <solidfox> yes thats the vid im watching, awesome :)[23:51:17] <Atari2600> NiniGeo2, thanks! let's see what is the dirty trick they are trying to do[23:51:19] <LastTalon> Atari2600, if you're going to be an ass, ask a question and then claim that the answer you get isn't the answer then seriously fuck off.[23:51:27] <NiniGeo2> There's actually a surprisingly large number of 4D games (at least, it's surprising to me...). Look at this list! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_four-dimensional_games[23:52:35] <Atari2600> that seems arbitrary[23:53:10] <LastTalon> The 4D rubick's cube is pretty fun, too.[23:53:18] <NiniGeo2> Eh it kinda is arbitary. In these 4D games, they treat the 4th spatial dimension equally to the first 3 spatial dimensions.[23:54:18] <Atari2600> yeah, but even his demonstration from 2D to 3D is constrained to orthogonal axis[23:54:35] <Atari2600> so whenever you want to add another dimension, it can mean anything and it is subject to constrained weird rules[23:55:14] <NiniGeo2> Oh that's an interesting viewpoint. Which non-weird rules would you add for a 4D game if you were making one, Atari2600? :)[23:55:52] <Atari2600> you see, its 4D dimension movement is not totally connected at all with the other movements, as we can see with 2D and 3D[23:56:02] <Atari2600> it is not coherent[23:56:29] <Atari2600> I fail the correct english words to express what I am thinking :-/[23:56:55] <aeth> Easiest way to do a 4D game is to make it like FEZ, where you just rotate around[23:57:16] <NiniGeo2> Oh, do you mean that when moving in the 4th dimension in that game, they only ever do a linear translation in the 4th dimension while holding the other 3 dimensions constant?[23:57:17] <Atari2600> heh! FEZ was not bad at all[23:57:34] <LastTalon> Atari2600, well you sort of have the same basic actions you can take in 3D or 2D of scaling, rotating, translating. But as far as like... walking, you can't really do that in a higher dimension becuase you don't really occupy space in that dimension.[23:57:36] <Atari2600> at least it was more orthogonal[23:57:37] <NiniGeo2> Would you like them to move in all four dimensions simultaneously?[23:57:44] <solidfox> how do i download that game?[23:57:48] <Atari2600> NiniGeo2, yeah! and I don't think it is possible[23:57:59] <solidfox> is it on steam?[23:58:01] <NiniGeo2> I think it'd be possible, but likely very confusing to play :P[23:58:01] <Atari2600> because the 4th dimension is an abstract concept[23:58:13] <Atari2600> solidfox, I got in a humble bundle, but yeah! steam[23:58:31] <LastTalon> It would be really difficult to control at least.[23:58:55] <NiniGeo2> Oh yeah it would![23:59:05] <LastTalon> Forget 6 degrees of freedom[23:59:07] *** Tobbi <Tobbi!~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi> has joined #gamedev[23:59:52] <LastTalon> Suddenly 8 degrees of freedom