[00:02:51] <LastTalon> That doesn't mean reply...
[00:04:02] <R2robot> ^
[00:05:17] <LastTalon> Lol
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[00:08:40] <pulse> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi19ITlcE_s
[00:10:31] <R2robot> I need individual tracks :P
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[00:10:53] <R2robot> 1 long track is like a throwback to cassette tapes
[00:11:14] <pulse> there's individual time stamps in the description :p
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[00:13:54] <LunarJetman> puft
[00:14:53] <LastTalon> 1 track? D:<
[00:15:00] <LastTalon> Haven't you heard of a track?
[00:15:07] <LastTalon> It has 4 whole tracks to use!
[00:15:53] <R2robot> pulse: too difficult :P
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[00:16:13] <R2robot> LastTalon: I used to have a 4 track recorder :D
[00:17:48] <LastTalon> A track is obviously the superior format.
[00:18:01] <LastTalon> Just like betamax
[00:18:23] <LastTalon> And HD DVD
[00:18:34] <R2robot> 8-track tapes were pretty cool.. except their size
[00:20:25] <LastTalon> And of course you can't foget MP3 vs. Ogg Vorbis
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[00:21:28] <LastTalon> OVR vs. SteamVR
[00:21:32] <LastTalon> :P
[00:22:59] <wcarss> hey folks, please let me know if it's not cool to lob out a question right after arriving, but I'm having a lot of trouble googling for answers to this
[00:24:07] <R2robot> just ask
[00:24:10] <wcarss> I'm looking for a generic approach to rate-limiting actions (e.g. enemy attacks, or game response to user input) beyond recording/checking elapsed time
[00:24:41] <mobile_c> anyone?
[00:25:07] <wcarss> I find I'm storing moments of time and specific cooldowns for a lot of distinct things, but it feels wrong
[00:25:14] <LastTalon> wcarss, your engine might have support for something like that depending on your engine.
[00:25:24] <mobile_c> "[08:58] <R2robot> there was a general discussion involving mobile dev" well my name is mobile_c -_-
[00:25:42] <LastTalon> mobile_c, that seems like your problem.
[00:25:48] <R2robot> ^
[00:25:55] <R2robot> if you can't figure out context, that's on you
[00:25:55] <mobile_c> R2robot: so i dont know if ur talking about mobile as in me or as in the developement platform
[00:25:59] <LastTalon> He didn't say mobile_c, he said mobile.
[00:26:07] <R2robot> I said mobile dev
[00:26:28] <wcarss> LastTalon: I'm working in my own little toy engine :P
[00:26:30] <R2robot> nevermind that there was a whole discussion about it
[00:27:22] <solidfox> can i build iphone apps on linux?
[00:27:29] <R2robot> mobile_c: change your name to something less common :P
[00:27:33] <solidfox> oh wait thats a perfect question for g00gle
[00:28:08] <mobile_c> "[09:27] <solidfox> can i build iphone apps on linux?" no, you need MAC OS in order to do that
[00:28:30] <LastTalon> wcarss, what you're looking for is probably debouncing.
[00:28:39] <solidfox> mobile_c: google says you can, but they won't be on the ios store
[00:28:56] <R2robot> mobile_c: you can safely ignore any of solidfox's troll questions
[00:29:03] <LastTalon> wcarss, you can of course create event systems and callbacks to handle this automatically if you're making the engine.
[00:29:30] <mobile_c> solidfox: how? u cant even compile for IOS ARM
[00:29:34] <mobile_c> on linux
[00:29:53] <solidfox> mobile_c: idk it says here: https://stackoverflow.com/a/277321
[00:29:59] <wcarss> LastTalon: you are completely correct. I should be able to add a debounce utility method and just use that
[00:30:06] <mobile_c> and even still, how will u get the app onto the IOS device
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[00:30:16] <R2robot> lol
[00:30:16] <wcarss> I don't know why that didn't occur to me here
[00:30:22] <R2robot> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[00:30:43] <solidfox> mobile_c: jailbroken iphones can install apps from non-ios-store sources
[00:31:12] <LastTalon> You can compile whatever you want anywhere you want.
[00:31:28] <LastTalon> Its just a matter of whether or not you know how to actually compile it. :P
[00:31:37] <solidfox> yes knowledge is power
[00:31:54] <LastTalon> But apple tries to heavily restrict it so that developers have to use a mac.
[00:32:03] <LastTalon> That doesn't mean you can't.
[00:32:04] <mobile_c> yup
[00:32:12] <LastTalon> But it means its very difficult without a mac.
[00:32:22] <solidfox> yes i almost bought a mac, but in the end i decided i should do android development first to see if i can get serious about mobile development
[00:32:27] <solidfox> thing is.. i have an iphone..
[00:32:27] <mobile_c> and no, just cus u can boot macOS in a vm does not mean you are developing on linux
[00:32:40] <LastTalon> I personally won't develop for apple platforms as a result.
[00:32:44] <LastTalon> Not worth my time.
[00:33:01] <solidfox> LastTalon: is it worth your time if you make a lot of $$$
[00:33:18] * LastTalon shrugs
[00:33:31] <LastTalon> I'm not really super concerned about that.
[00:34:05] <LastTalon> Also a lot of game engines do all the legwork for you as well.
[00:34:07] <solidfox> yes i've been worried about it since i resigned
[00:34:15] <mobile_c> the closest you can get to developing on IOS without a mac is using a compiler from an IOS app
[00:34:56] <LastTalon> solidfox, see, the nice thing about android...
[00:35:04] <LastTalon> You can develop for android without an android device.
[00:35:22] <LastTalon> Really shows you how petty apple can be with it.
[00:35:22] <mobile_c> and no, not the shitty compilers with no folders and no actual file storage
[00:35:44] <solidfox> oh that's good, cause the only one i have is unusable. broken screen. doesnt charge. and the screen input is glitched
[00:36:12] <mobile_c> solidfox: then get it fixed 0.0
[00:36:16] <LastTalon> As far as QA you'd probably want actual devices, but other than that you're fine.
[00:36:23] <solidfox> mobile_c: LastTalon just said i don't need one..
[00:36:28] <mobile_c> WEAR WOULD WE BE WITHOUT ANDROID!!!
[00:36:38] <LastTalon> Like... using a mouse to control android apps doesn't give you the same QA as actually using the app on a phone.
[00:37:00] <mobile_c> solidfox: but that IS your only android phone right?
[00:37:21] <LastTalon> Also you can get android devices cheap if you want.
[00:37:37] <solidfox> LastTalon: yeah i've been wrestling with coinbase support trying to fix a display bug, and they keep suggesting i just use a desktop (even though they have a mobile layout)
[00:37:48] <solidfox> they dont see the bug cause they're all on dev tools
[00:37:53] <solidfox> (that's what they said)
[00:38:37] <LastTalon> Like... I found some android devices for like $40
[00:38:44] <LunarJetman> Without Android? I invented the smartphone and we didn't have Android back then.
[00:38:47] <LastTalon> Just with a quick search on the ol' google.
[00:39:08] <LastTalon> Al gore invented the internet.
[00:39:16] <LunarJetman> I am quite serious mate
[00:39:29] <LastTalon> I know you are.
[00:39:41] <LastTalon> I hope never to be serious, it sounds awful.
[00:39:58] <solidfox> LunarJetman: ravioli ravioli ravioli
[00:40:18] <mobile_c> solidfox: if you want to make you app compatible with android emulators then sure go ahead, they can run about 70% to 90% of android, but if i want full support you WILL need to run on the actual android hardware itself
[00:41:03] <LunarJetman> I was part of the team that invented the smartphone (1999, 8 years before the first iPhone).
[00:41:12] <LastTalon> You could run android in a VM couldn't you?
[00:41:29] <mobile_c> LastTalon: who
[00:41:47] <mobile_c> everyone here?
[00:42:06] <LastTalon> You said with emulators, and yeah, emulators get things wrong but they're a good dev tool. And if you really want to test it you could run android in a vm.
[00:42:17] <LastTalon> Or you know... buy a cheap android device.
[00:42:46] <mobile_c> you *can* but like i said, it wont support EVERYTHING android does 100% as if it is running on an actual android phone
[00:43:48] <mobile_c> especially if the app in use takes advantage of android specific hardware/software/drivers
[00:43:57] <LastTalon> 'The first commercially available device that could be properly referred to as a "smartphone" began as a prototype called "Angler" developed by Frank Canova in 1992 while at IBM and demonstrated in November of that year at the COMDEX computer industry trade show.'
[00:44:01] <mobile_c> that the emulator does not fully support
[00:44:30] <LastTalon> LunarJetman, looks like you weren't the first then.
[00:44:56] <LunarJetman> LastTalon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ4_hK0u31A "We call it a smartphone"
[00:45:26] <LastTalon> I can call a carrot a smartphone if you want.
[00:45:36] <LunarJetman> "We call it a smartphone".
[00:45:50] <LastTalon> I think you're missing the point.
[00:45:56] <LastTalon> You're claiming to have coined a term.
[00:46:04] <LastTalon> Not invented the smartphone.
[00:46:32] <LunarJetman> false. the IBM Simon was not as small and light as a modern mobile phone; it was a brick and it didn't have a browser.
[00:46:46] <LastTalon> Who cares?
[00:46:51] <LunarJetman> "We call it a smartphone".
[00:46:54] <LastTalon> Lol
[00:47:09] <LastTalon> Again, cool. Your company coined a term.
[00:47:20] <mobile_c> XD
[00:47:35] <LastTalon> I'm sure it was a great accomplishment.
[00:47:39] <LastTalon> And I'm being serious.
[00:47:56] <LunarJetman> " In December 1999 the magazine Popular Science appointed the Ericsson R380 Smartphone to one of the most important advances in science and technology.[6]"
[00:48:12] <LastTalon> Popular Science.
[00:48:16] <LunarJetman> "We call it a smartphone".
[00:48:33] <LastTalon> "I ... call a carrot a smartphone..."
[00:49:10] <solidfox> you guys should just sit down and have a plate of raviolis
[00:49:29] <LastTalon> I just think its funny.
[00:49:33] <pulse> actual first smartphone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7qPAY9JqE4
[00:49:51] <solidfox> LastTalon: yes, he humored me earlier with a video of a girl saying raviolis.
[00:50:05] <solidfox> LastTalon: it was a strange video, i think that's what he was going for
[00:50:38] <LastTalon> solidfox, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78ovXSSCaL0
[00:51:01] <mobile_c> LunarJetman: what is that boot thing that runs BEFORE the boot loader in Huewei devices
[00:51:09] <LastTalon> Don't encourage me to shitpost.
[00:51:19] <LunarJetman> pulse: Apple's iPhone whilst not the first smartphone dominated because using a finger for control trumped a stylus and the App Atore.
[00:51:34] <LunarJetman> Store*
[00:51:39] <LastTalon> Good touch screen technology is wonderful.
[00:51:51] <pulse> it was the first device that acted like a computer and not like an appliance
[00:52:00] <pulse> so as far as i'm concerned, that's where the smartphone started
[00:52:05] <pulse> the term has been used before
[00:52:05] <solidfox> LastTalon: i like your video better
[00:52:11] <pulse> but the tech wasn't
[00:52:36] <solidfox> LastTalon: because of the music and the crab hands
[00:52:43] <LastTalon> Ka ka ka kani
[00:52:47] <solidfox> "claws"
[00:54:12] <solidfox> and moe
[00:54:19] <LastTalon> The important thing for apple was the new touchscreen technology and the new formfactor.
[00:54:20] <LunarJetman> I am suspicious of people who like "cute" anime videos: raises the pedophile flag
[00:54:39] <LastTalon> Should I link ponponpon?
[00:54:52] <LunarJetman> are you a pedophile?
[00:54:56] <LastTalon> Are you?
[00:55:35] <LastTalon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzC4hFK5P3g
[00:56:07] <LunarJetman> yes you appear to be a pedophile. fuck off.
[00:56:14] <solidfox> lol wtf is this xD
[00:56:15] <LastTalon> OP?
[00:56:22] <LastTalon> This man is accusing me of pedophilia
[00:56:29] <solidfox> did that microphone just come out of her ear?
[00:56:49] <solidfox> LastTalon: people who do that are most often just projecting
[00:56:52] <myke> let's get all along, everypony.
[00:56:58] <LastTalon> solidfox, lol
[00:57:05] <LastTalon> myke, lol
[00:58:10] <LunarJetman> Elon Musk has accused people of pedophilia with far less evidence.
[00:58:26] <LastTalon> Yeah, and people called him on his bullshit.
[00:58:27] <LastTalon> Lol
[00:58:38] <pulse> elon musk is pretty stupid for a smart guy
[00:58:40] <solidfox> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_AdYv8gYDw
[00:58:45] <LastTalon> pulse, couldn't agree more
[00:58:55] <solidfox> pulse: i beleive everyone has some capacity to be stupid sometimes
[00:58:57] <pulse> his simulation stuff is the funniest
[00:59:01] <pulse> and AI fear mongering
[00:59:03] <LastTalon> Also how about some kero kero bonito?
[00:59:18] <pulse> solidfox, well, that's true. but most people aren't super-famous
[00:59:55] <fydo> LunarJetman: please drop the pedo talk
[00:59:59] <myke> ^^
[01:00:09] <LastTalon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY-FJvRqK0E
[01:00:20] <myke> if you got fydo to react on here you know it's srs
[01:00:22] <solidfox> LastTalon: i posted the kokoro kokoro kokoro song
[01:00:27] <LunarJetman> fydo: OK. how about we drop the dodgy anime video posts too?
[01:00:30] <LastTalon> solidfox, I saw
[01:00:44] <LastTalon> Wasn't even anime.
[01:00:48] <myke> everypony likes japanimation
[01:00:50] <LastTalon> Well solidfox posted an anime one
[01:00:54] <LastTalon> Mine wasn't.
[01:01:02] <LastTalon> The kani song was
[01:01:04] <LastTalon> :P
[01:01:08] <fydo> no rules against cute animation!
[01:01:17] <solidfox> yes, im a super elite weeb
[01:01:22] <fydo> let's have a dance party
[01:01:23] <pulse> i dislike anime in general
[01:01:27] <pulse> only one i liked was princess mononoke
[01:01:51] <LastTalon> I like anime, but I rarely have time for watching tv.
[01:02:06] <LastTalon> I supposed I could multitask
[01:02:14] <solidfox> i have too much time now that i resigned... i've been watching dbz. i need to stop its terrible
[01:02:19] <solidfox> its too much even for a super elite like me
[01:02:28] <pulse> i've been watching allo allo
[01:02:35] <pulse> it's dangerous because i laugh so much i feel like i'm going to choke
[01:02:46] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o fydo
[01:02:56] <fydo> I said: let's have a dance party
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[01:03:14] * solidfox dances
[01:03:16] <LunarJetman> solidfox: you keep mentioning that you resigned .. want to talk about it?
[01:03:25] <pulse> i can't dance. i create an aura of embarrassment around me that stretches for 20 meters
[01:03:29] * fydo nods approvingly
[01:03:33] <LastTalon> fydo, while you're here...
[01:03:40] <LastTalon> You should update the topic
[01:03:42] <LastTalon> :D
[01:03:43] * fydo lowers DEFCON level
[01:03:50] <solidfox> pulse: nice is it like monty python?
[01:03:55] *** ChanServ sets mode: -o fydo
[01:03:57] <solidfox> LunarJetman: not really
[01:03:59] <pulse> solidfox, i find it more funny
[01:04:06] <pulse> i never liked monty python THAT much
[01:04:14] <pulse> it's good and i like it
[01:04:16] <LastTalon> I like monty python. Pretty good stuff.
[01:04:18] <fydo> oh right
[01:04:23] <solidfox> pulse: ah
[01:04:23] <pulse> but personally there's two sitcoms that will never be topped for me
[01:04:29] <pulse> #1 is seinfeld, #2 is allo allo
[01:04:52] <LunarJetman> I hope you didn't resign a non-gamedev day job to do Indie gamedev; this is nearly always a mistake.
[01:05:08] *** ChanServ changes topic to "Question for 2018 gamedevs: Why do you (want to) make games? | You must be identified to speak."
[01:05:13] <fydo> fixed!
[01:05:14] <pulse> solidfox, it's back from the times where stereotypes could be exploited to the extreme degree and no one got overly offended about it
[01:05:17] <solidfox> LunarJetman: i resigned with no plans whatsoever
[01:05:27] <fydo> thanks, LastTalon
[01:05:35] <solidfox> LunarJetman: which might be worse
[01:05:39] <LunarJetman> yes
[01:05:48] <pulse> LunarJetman, disagreed. following your dreams > being a slave to the system
[01:05:48] <LunarJetman> it is fine until the money runs out
[01:06:18] <solidfox> yes. dont let your dreams just be dreams
[01:06:20] <solidfox> just DO IT
[01:06:24] <pulse> true that
[01:06:31] <LastTalon> pulse, basically how I feel.
[01:06:44] <LastTalon> I'm not a part of this system!
[01:06:59] <solidfox> i think everyone should resign. we'll have a nice recession and we can become the property owners when everything goes on sale
[01:07:03] <myke> damn fydo
[01:07:15] <pulse> i fantasize about becoming a hermit up on a mountain
[01:07:16] <LastTalon> Take control of the means of production. :D
[01:07:24] <solidfox> pulse: same
[01:07:24] <LunarJetman> if you can afford to resign then great; I can't; I have bills.
[01:07:25] <pulse> but then i realize i'd need electricity, internet, and a laptop
[01:07:26] <fydo> how are you feeling, myke
[01:07:46] <myke> i like that you set it to 2018
[01:07:50] <fydo> myke: do you still have cool hair? :D
[01:07:51] <solidfox> yeah, in all seriousness i need to get another web dev job
[01:07:54] <pulse> myke, lmao
[01:07:56] <fydo> oh, that is what the poll said
[01:08:02] <fydo> http://poal.me/jzridc
[01:08:08] <fydo> not my decision, it was voted on
[01:08:27] <pulse> none of those interest me
[01:08:42] <pulse> my suggestion: Dragons are cool.
[01:08:45] <solidfox> but i earned some time
[01:08:47] <LastTalon> The public has spoken... and they chose wrong, so its time to do it for them
[01:09:35] <pulse> i want to make my own company, and make my own games
[01:09:42] <pulse> i can't stand other people telling me what to do
[01:09:42] <mobile_c> https://source.android.com/security/trusty/trusty-ref TF THIS IS C? I THOUGHT ANDROID WAS JAVA
[01:09:44] <pulse> it's the worst
[01:09:52] <myke> i don't even remember having cool hair.  pretty sure it's not cool now.
[01:10:21] <solidfox> mobile_c: you can even write android apps in js
[01:10:35] <LastTalon> You can use whatever langauge for whatever you want.
[01:10:56] <solidfox> yup its just a matter of how hard is it, and is it worth it
[01:11:03] <LastTalon> This is going straight back to the "you can compile whatever you want wherever you want" thing again.
[01:11:29] <myke> i write js apps in java so
[01:11:37] <solidfox> u wot
[01:12:33] <solidfox> myke: transpiled webasm with java?
[01:12:36] <LunarJetman> I think the Android NDK is C++
[01:13:25] <solidfox> cpp is fun. i think i like it better than rust just because i can understand it better
[01:13:40] <LastTalon> I still need to learn rust.
[01:13:43] <LunarJetman> C++ is the best programming language.
[01:13:49] <LastTalon> I've often wondered if its even worth it.
[01:13:55] <myke> by way of GWT, by way of libgdx
[01:13:56] <solidfox> LastTalon: it doesnt hurt
[01:14:01] <solidfox> LastTalon: might be worth it someday
[01:14:07] <myke> nice to be able to just use html as a compile target and have it work (more or less)
[01:14:24] <LastTalon> I always felt like I'd use it for native tools I want to make.
[01:14:25] <mobile_c> welp
[01:14:36] <LastTalon> But I really don't want to make a whole lot of those.
[01:14:38] <LastTalon> So... Idk.
[01:14:43] * mobile_c assumes the code to be for the ANDROID kernel instead of the android runtime
[01:14:46] <LunarJetman> my engine will provide Lua and possible JS scripting
[01:14:58] <solidfox> LastTalon: linus said that he doesn't think the kernel should be written in rust, but there is more to a system than the kernel.
[01:14:58] <LastTalon> Lua is good.
[01:15:06] <LastTalon> Well yeah.
[01:15:07] <solidfox> LastTalon: so he might accept PRs with rust someday
[01:15:27] <LastTalon> It seems like a good candidate for OS tools.
[01:15:55] <solidfox> hm. well those are maintained by gnu, so i guess he wouldnt be involved in that PR
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[01:16:04] <solidfox> i thought maybe he meant device drivers too
[01:16:13] <solidfox> not sure
[01:16:17] <LastTalon> I don't know much about device drivers.
[01:16:25] <LastTalon> How they're written at least.
[01:16:33] <solidfox> yeah me neither.
[01:17:06] <solidfox> he also said rust looks like its going better than ADA so there is hope
[01:17:15] <LastTalon> I hope so
[01:17:18] <LastTalon> I hate ada
[01:17:35] <solidfox> ah
[01:17:41] <solidfox> i only used it at uni
[01:17:46] <LastTalon> Same
[01:18:08] <LastTalon> We had to write the same program 4 times in 4 different langauges.
[01:18:10] <LastTalon> One was ada
[01:20:02] <LunarJetman> we had to use Ada in years 1 and 2 at Uni back in early 1990s
[01:20:32] <LastTalon> Its too much like pascal
[01:20:34] <LastTalon> Which I also hate.
[01:20:54] <solidfox> i hated it at first, but i started to not care.
[01:21:09] <LunarJetman> I discovered C independently so start writing a MUD instead of going to lectures
[01:21:15] <LastTalon> I can see why people like the strong typing and concurrency, and tasking, and such.
[01:21:48] <solidfox> LastTalon: we never used those features. i only used it in intro to algorithms class
[01:21:53] <LastTalon> Oh. Lol
[01:21:54] <solidfox> (which didnt involve any algorithms)
[01:22:16] <LastTalon> Basically its a very safe language.
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[01:22:22] <LastTalon> Which is its appeal
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[01:22:38] <LastTalon> It favors compile time errors over runtime errors.
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[01:24:15] <LastTalon> I think I'll like rust over ada.
[01:24:50] <solidfox> yes, after you practice for a few months you will develop an amicable relationship to the borrow checker
[01:25:06] <solidfox> but for a little while you wrestle it constantly. unless you're super elite
[01:25:24] <Donitzo> god, black mirror is depressing
[01:25:24] <LastTalon> I feel like I won't have much trouble.
[01:25:28] <mobile_c> might hop on linux later and try to finish my disassembler generator
[01:25:44] <LastTalon> I mean I haven't even started and I know about the borrow checker and what it does, so I feel like that gives me a headstart.
[01:25:58] <solidfox> Donitzo: thanks for the heads up. i'll skip that movie
[01:26:04] <FroggyC> its infamous at this point
[01:26:10] * solidfox never watches movies anyways
[01:26:11] <FroggyC> hello btw
[01:26:16] <LastTalon> Rust has a lot of similar features to ada actually.
[01:26:19] <LastTalon> FroggyC, hello
[01:26:24] <solidfox> LastTalon: yes probably
[01:27:07] <LastTalon> Rust does have some syntax quirks I don't like a whole lot.
[01:27:11] <LastTalon> But my hope is I get over them.
[01:27:46] <LastTalon> Since its mostly names and symbols I don't like.
[01:27:59] <solidfox> yeah same
[01:28:12] <solidfox> they had to be different and call their switch statement "match"
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[01:28:19] <LastTalon> Idk why, but I have a particular distaste for things like "fn"
[01:28:30] <solidfox> yeah i dont like shortspeak
[01:28:37] <Donitzo> def ur_mom
[01:28:40] <solidfox> unless its a common abbreviation or acronym
[01:28:43] <LastTalon> I'd prefer just saying function rather than fn
[01:28:47] <Donitzo> no
[01:28:50] <Donitzo> abbreviations are always bad
[01:28:52] <Donitzo> prove me wrong
[01:28:53] <LastTalon> I don't have a problem with long words.
[01:28:58] <solidfox> Donitzo: DNS
[01:29:11] <Donitzo> that's an acronym
[01:29:16] <solidfox> oh
[01:29:38] <solidfox> Donitzo: ETA
[01:29:47] <Donitzo> still an acronym
[01:29:49] <Donitzo> just missing some words
[01:30:03] <solidfox> no ETA is an abbreviation..
[01:30:04] <Donitzo> I think
[01:30:12] <solidfox> i googled "commonl abbreviations"
[01:30:24] <solidfox> oh nvm
[01:30:26] <solidfox> E.T.A. - This acronym means "estimated time of arrival,"
[01:30:40] <Donitzo> an abbreviation is something like Mr. or Cntr
[01:30:45] <Donitzo> for people who can't name stuff
[01:31:06] <Donitzo> doesn't belong in programming
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[01:31:30] <solidfox> yeah you're right
[01:31:43] <solidfox> tsp = just write teaspoon
[01:32:00] <LastTalon> Abbreviations should really only be used for programming when the abbreviation is as common or more common than the non-abbreviation.
[01:33:52] <LastTalon> Also, technically acronyms and initialisms are abbreviations.
[01:34:03] <solidfox> like vocab
[01:34:34] <solidfox> teachers often say vocab instead of vocabulary
[01:34:41] <solidfox> well at least in my gradeschool
[01:34:45] <solidfox> and highschool
[01:34:47] <LastTalon> Latin abbreviations for instance
[01:35:52] <solidfox> what about "num"
[01:35:59] <solidfox> that isn't really common in speech
[01:36:06] <LastTalon> num?
[01:36:09] <solidfox> number
[01:36:17] <LastTalon> Whats wrong with number?
[01:36:26] <solidfox> its three letters longer...
[01:36:31] <LastTalon> Oh no?
[01:36:59] <solidfox> i use num sometimes
[01:37:11] <LastTalon> Its probably fine.
[01:37:17] <solidfox> but i cant remember the last time i did
[01:37:25] <LastTalon> In general the point of names is to clearly identify though.
[01:37:41] <Donitzo> I tend to use n_items in python
[01:37:43] <LastTalon> Hence abbreviations for the sake of being short is antithetical.
[01:37:50] <solidfox> the place i resigned from had mountains of jquery with an abundance of obscure abbreviations that i didnt understand
[01:38:11] <LastTalon> Otherwise just start with 'a' as your first name and continue on
[01:38:23] <LastTalon> If there was no point in identifying with your names.
[01:38:39] <LastTalon> Its just the same if no one is going to understand it.
[01:38:53] <solidfox> i told them i couldn't fix issues that should have been easy (if the code were good), more than once.
[01:39:21] <LastTalon> Yay for inheriting shitty code!
[01:39:46] <solidfox> i once dreamt about working there again, so i dont like to ruminate too much about it xD
[01:40:18] <solidfox> i've also used idx
[01:40:22] <dostoyevsky> I accidentally joined the ##gamedev channel instead of here for a couple of days
[01:40:42] <solidfox> like row_idx col_idx
[01:40:55] <R2robot> dostoyevsky: lol
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[01:41:43] <Donitzo> in python I use t_i
[01:41:45] <Donitzo> for things
[01:41:47] <Donitzo> or for rows, r_i
[01:41:53] <Donitzo> c_i, you get the drift
[01:42:01] <Donitzo> I find it a fairly straightforward pattern
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[01:42:23] <solidfox> Donitzo: i dont know if i like that. its a little too short
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[01:42:36] <Donitzo> better than just i with nested loops
[01:42:37] <solidfox> but to that point mine might be bad too
[01:42:58] <Donitzo> for x_i, x in enumerate(x_positions):
[01:43:13] <solidfox> i and j. i've been using x and y for my tetris
[01:43:21] <LastTalon> I find ijklmn fine for nested loops.
[01:43:21] <dostoyevsky> the ## # difference on freenode is such a joke
[01:43:30] <LastTalon> They're iterators.
[01:43:59] <solidfox> yeah the ijklmn thing is better than my row_idx col_idx
[01:44:11] <LastTalon> u and v as well.
[01:44:41] <LastTalon> As long as you don't use single letters for other things that'll get confusing.
[01:45:20] <solidfox> don't you mean it won't get confusing
[01:45:23] <LastTalon> Like it'll get pretty confusing quickly if you have i and j as iterators, u and v to hold some data related to the iterators and k for some constant.
[01:45:33] <solidfox> ok i understand what you mean
[01:45:54] <Donitzo> i for generic iterators, n if I need 2, otherwise I name them approprietely
[01:46:18] <LastTalon> I never use n as an iterator.
[01:46:29] <solidfox> Donitzo: ah
[01:46:33] <LastTalon> n and m are for mathematical quantities.
[01:46:35] <solidfox> Donitzo: you could use it
[01:46:49] <LastTalon> Like... the sum from 1 to n.
[01:46:52] <solidfox> and itt and ittt
[01:46:54] <solidfox> jk
[01:47:30] <LastTalon> I like to make sure my single letter variables don't collide.
[01:48:19] <LastTalon> If I needed a nested loop structure with more than 4 iterators then I'll probably name them.
[01:48:58] <dostoyevsky> Didn't the phoboslab guy hang around in freenode as well?
[01:49:22] <Donitzo> did he experiment with teleporters?
[01:49:30] <pulse> i hate when people do i, ii, iii
[01:49:34] <pulse> or x, xx, xxx
[01:49:42] <pulse> so annoying
[01:49:45] <solidfox> pulse: lol
[01:49:55] <pulse> one of the assistants back at college used to do that
[01:49:57] <pulse> drove me crazy
[01:50:03] <solidfox> x, x2
[01:50:07] <pulse> better
[01:50:08] <Donitzo> also using variable number of newlines
[01:50:14] <Donitzo> decided by a dice throw
[01:50:28] <dostoyevsky> are you guys reading my code???
[01:50:34] <pulse> :p
[01:50:45] <pulse> dostoyevsky, btw for future reference: /msg alis list [term]
[01:50:53] <pulse> makes life easier
[01:51:23] <dostoyevsky> pulse: will that tell me which one is the gamedev channel I joined the other day?
[01:51:43] <pulse> it will list the channels and give you the population number
[01:54:59] <solidfox> ... x9, xA, xB
[01:55:02] <LunarJetman> I am bust adding text support to my ECS
[01:55:07] <LunarJetman> busy*
[01:55:18] <solidfox> LunarJetman: ok
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[01:55:29] <Donitzo> god it's difficult to get blender files in order
[01:55:54] <Donitzo> so temperimental
[01:56:11] <dostoyevsky> Donitzo: What do you mean?
[01:56:20] <Donitzo> they easily become really messy
[01:56:22] <LastTalon> dostoyevsky, you could use a client that remembers which you joined.
[01:56:29] <Donitzo> sporadic resources which won't go away
[01:56:33] <dostoyevsky> You want to order all the meshes in your .blend file by length?
[01:56:34] <Donitzo> animations you can't delete
[01:56:35] <[Relic]> use a juicer instead?  :)
[01:56:37] <Donitzo> random crap
[01:56:47] <FroggyC> i, j, k are well known math standards
[01:57:10] <Donitzo> can't use k, need it for spring constants
[01:57:18] <LastTalon> Donitzo, lol
[01:57:41] <dostoyevsky> I use h for a dictionary, and r for a result of a function
[01:57:53] <pulse> x,y,z for geometry. i,j,k for general purpose
[01:58:21] <pulse> a,b,c if you're high on lettuce
[01:58:26] <Donitzo> xyzw
[01:58:43] <solidfox> ecks, wye, zee
[01:58:53] <dostoyevsky> always hate it when some code decides to use for (int iterator=0; iterator<10; ++iterator) { }
[01:59:02] <solidfox> aye, jay, kay, ell, emm
[01:59:26] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: looks fine to me
[01:59:43] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: *shakes fist*
[01:59:47] <solidfox> lol
[01:59:49] <LastTalon> dostoyevsky, honestly that one bothers me less than what some people do.
[02:00:08] <LastTalon> I mean at least its an iterator.
[02:00:10] <pulse> for (std::map<string, string>::const_iterator it = map.begin(); it != map.end(); it++)
[02:00:17] <pulse> hardcore
[02:00:27] <dostoyevsky> pulse: why do you hate auto so much?
[02:00:34] <solidfox> pulse: use auto
[02:00:38] <pulse> auto is evil
[02:00:42] <LastTalon> Lol
[02:00:42] <pulse> and disagreeable
[02:00:43] <solidfox> o
[02:00:45] <pulse> i use typedef
[02:00:46] <pulse> :p
[02:00:52] <solidfox> pulse: use using
[02:00:57] <pulse> using is nice too
[02:01:04] <solidfox> ok, at least im doing something right
[02:01:28] <solidfox> yes i have a few autos, maybe i need to change them
[02:01:43] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: My auto is a car
[02:01:47] <LastTalon> var
[02:01:49] <LastTalon> :D
[02:01:52] <solidfox> LastTalon: lol
[02:02:38] <LastTalon> Who. Needs. Types. Anyway?
[02:02:49] <dostoyevsky> one question I had why is animating rigged 3d objects so slow in pure javascript: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J6Z5wBfSnQ
[02:03:20] <dostoyevsky> He presents an animation system in webassembly that's much faster than the one in js
[02:03:27] <wcarss> LastTalon: thanks again for saying the word 'debounce' -- this was like having something on the tip of my tongue, for weeks!
[02:03:35] <LastTalon> dostoyevsky, timestamp?
[02:03:50] <LastTalon> wcarss, np.
[02:04:33] <dostoyevsky> https://youtu.be/1J6Z5wBfSnQ?t=313
[02:04:39] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: ^^
[02:05:13] <LastTalon> No idea.
[02:05:33] <LastTalon> Looks like its just a lower framerate, but i have no idea what causes that.
[02:05:39] <dostoyevsky> Is it hard to move around all the verticies attached to a bone?
[02:06:09] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: Might also be massive models... with high polycounts
[02:07:29] <dostoyevsky> He mentioned that he can't give access to the models/rigs because they are only available at a certain website for trial, that seemed quite commercial
[02:08:38] <LastTalon> Yeah, that's all I can think of.
[02:08:48] <shake> normally your skinning is performed by a shader.. there shouldn't be a difference. unless a lot of numbercrunching is performed on CPU side, e.g. to fill up some transform buffers
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[02:08:59] <LastTalon> Its intentionally choosing a task that would benefit from some cpu optimizations.
[02:09:14] <dostoyevsky> Ah, good to know!
[02:09:52] <dostoyevsky> I mean, there are probably many ways to skin a bones animation engine :) many of which are slow
[02:09:56] <LastTalon> Something that can't easily be optimized when its being interpretted in js
[02:10:21] <LastTalon> But yeah, a shader would be best probably.
[02:10:24] <LastTalon> Lol
[02:10:42] <LastTalon> In which case wasm and js are the same cuz its on the gpu anyway.
[02:11:35] <LastTalon> Or for something like this prerendering is always an option.
[02:11:48] <LastTalon> I mean, I could pick it apart, but the point is clearly to demonstrate wasm.
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[02:12:49] <LunarJetman> I am going to use shaders to do on-the-fly SDF generation; should be fun.
[02:13:55] <shake> LunarJetman: I think Seb Altonen did something like that with compute shaders for claybook, specificially for GPU physics though IIRC.
[02:14:00] <snake> i wonder if i can make 3d games. it seems like the depth of game development is quite.
[02:14:05] <shake> LunarJetman: you should take a look at https://twvideo01.ubm-us.net/o1/vault/gdc2018/presentations/Aaltonen_Sebastian_GPU_Based_Clay.pdf
[02:14:18] <dostoyevsky> The guy is a bit strange.  In his other video he explains how to render something from blender in webgl which is nice.  But he spents like 8mins of a 11mins video on actually loading the file... He never heard of just putting all you text files into your main html file and just get them via getElementById, he had to write a something using 10 callbacks to load all the files for the 3d models, with
[02:14:24] <dostoyevsky> async programming, lots of c&p and faulty error handling
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[02:15:37] <LastTalon> dostoyevsky, looks like he's not sure if he wants to make a demo or a tool for people to use.
[02:15:50] <LastTalon> He presents them like demos in the video.
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[02:16:45] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: Well, at least he taught me how to go from blender to webgl, at least for the meshes... animations I do not know yet but I can see them in the json
[02:17:00] <dostoyevsky> meshes/textures
[02:17:07] <LunarJetman> shake: yeah SDF rendering is interesting but this is just SDF generation for font glyph atlas
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[02:20:46] <solidfox> hey when did the topic change
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[02:22:42] <solidfox> oh i see
[02:23:02] <aeth> oh hey there's a topic I never noticed
[02:23:13] <aeth> Question for 2018 gamedevs: Why are you still stuck in 2018?
[02:23:30] <solidfox> aeth: they were voting on the 2019 question
[02:23:38] <dostoyevsky> text in opengl is hard to do
[02:23:44] <solidfox> aeth: its undecided because the most popular one is about hentai
[02:23:51] <solidfox> http://poal.me/jzridc
[02:24:05] <aeth> solidfox: If Steam new releases are any indication, 90% of amateur gamedev is hentai
[02:24:14] <solidfox> oh it says 2018 on that site
[02:24:16] <solidfox> strange
[02:24:25] <solidfox> maybe its a joke lol
[02:24:31] <aeth> solidfox: I think the joke is that the topic should stay the same
[02:24:33] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: maybe you are from the future?
[02:24:38] <solidfox> the users have voted.
[02:24:43] <solidfox> its 2018 in here forever
[02:24:56] <aeth> solidfox: So 15 votes (31%) for the hentai joke option, 14 votes (29%) for the stay-the-same joke option.
[02:25:18] <solidfox> aeth: well to be fair, i made it 15 after they changed the topic
[02:25:20] <aeth> 60% of people want to joke... and the mars one isn't pretty serious either
[02:25:26] <shake> aeth hacked the voting machines
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[02:25:47] <aeth> 1,374 votes: Why do you love aeth so much?
[02:25:52] <aeth> Well, I think there's a clear 99% winner
[02:26:14] <solidfox> aeth: well us gamedevs have to have a sense of humor, because we work overtime every day
[02:26:20] <solidfox> to meet deadlines
[02:26:26] <shake> he actually won with 104% of all votes
[02:26:39] <dostoyevsky> I was wondering why openemu has all these strange emulators for game consoles I have never heard of
[02:27:13] <aeth> yeah, what's a "gamecube" anyway?
[02:27:26] <LastTalon> Whats a "dreamcast"?
[02:27:34] <LastTalon> :P
[02:27:45] <solidfox> who are the patriots
[02:27:48] <dostoyevsky> turns out that 110% of them are exclusively featuring hentai games
[02:27:56] <solidfox> damn there's never gonna be another game like metal gear solid
[02:27:58] * solidfox cries
[02:28:10] <LastTalon> Snake?!
[02:28:23] <dostoyevsky> and most of these consoles were never released outside japan
[02:28:49] <LastTalon> Whats a "famicom"?
[02:29:06] <aeth> dostoyevsky: what you're probably seeing is the Japanese version, with a separate name, for a well known console, e.g. Famicom
[02:30:24] <solidfox> hey this is probably a better place to talk about video games than the gaming channel
[02:30:29] <solidfox> i just realized that
[02:31:05] <LastTalon> Whats a "virtual boy"? :P
[02:31:13] <LastTalon> solidfox, probably.
[02:31:25] <solidfox> LastTalon: whats a PC
[02:32:01] <solidfox> openemu emulators
[02:32:10] <solidfox> like maybe amiga
[02:32:22] <solidfox> or scumvm
[02:32:30] <immibis> solidfox: a play ctation?
[02:32:40] <immibis> duh. everyone knows that
[02:32:59] * LastTalon wants that N64 pikachu edition
[02:33:12] <dostoyevsky> aeth: The `pc fx' e.g.
[02:33:25] <dostoyevsky> not sure if that's similar to ta famicon
[02:33:35] <solidfox> oh they dont have amiga
[02:33:42] <solidfox> no comodore either
[02:33:53] <dostoyevsky> https://youtu.be/t7qGy1jxsM0?t=188
[02:33:54] <solidfox> coleco vision though, whatever that is
[02:34:08] <shake> solidfox: you want UAE in this case :)
[02:34:25] <LastTalon> I should get a N64 again.
[02:34:29] <LastTalon> Sounds like fun.
[02:34:50] <solidfox> n64 classic perhaps?
[02:35:28] <solidfox> i got a snes classic, unfortunately i haven't played for a few months.
[02:35:32] <solidfox> i may never beat earthbound
[02:38:18] <aeth> dostoyevsky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC-FX
[02:38:49] <aeth> so it was an obscure failure, yes
[02:38:58] <aeth> like these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_of_video_game_consoles#Other_consoles
[02:39:27] <aeth> lol, Casio had one
[02:39:35] <aeth> the calculator/watch company
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[02:39:54] <dostoyevsky> aeth: was PC FX really a failure?  I guess it was just focussed on the japanese market
[02:40:00] <LastTalon> They made a gold-plated wii. :D
[02:40:27] <dostoyevsky> aeth: but they probably realized that interactive comics wouldn't be that interesting internationally
[02:41:08] <aeth> dostoyevsky: 400,000 so the most successful of the "other consoles" section
[02:41:11] <aeth> by an order of magnitude
[02:41:22] <solidfox> LastTalon: really?
[02:41:35] <solidfox> hey do you guys prefer console games or PC games
[02:41:41] <LastTalon> Yeah. Was given to buckhingham palace as a marketing stunt.
[02:42:00] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: today's consoles are mostly PCs, no?
[02:42:00] <aeth> dostoyevsky: the major Japanese consoles had well over 1 million in Japan, though. At least, it seems like that would be the case.
[02:42:01] <solidfox> i liked the wii it was fun to hack
[02:42:14] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: yeah basically, but you need to buy a new one every few years
[02:42:29] <aeth> dostoyevsky: the switch is basically a tablet, the other two are basically PCs. The days of innovative hardware (e.g. PS3) are gone forever.
[02:42:45] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: I have two ps4s... but I also have a asus gaming laptop that I used when skyrim came out in 2011 :)
[02:43:03] <dostoyevsky> but it's not like I could reuse the asus for current games
[02:43:15] <LastTalon> I have a computer and a steam link. :D
[02:43:36] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: shoulda built a PC so you can upgrade it
[02:43:39] <aeth> if it was a gaming desktop you could probably just barely play games through 2015-2016 on it, if not 2017. And, of course, less demanding games released even today.
[02:43:45] <aeth> laptop, though? definitely obsolete
[02:43:51] <solidfox> i have a crappy amazon laptop though lol so i shouldnt be talking
[02:43:51] <aeth> You pay more to get less with laptops
[02:44:03] <LastTalon> Formfactor. :D
[02:44:21] <LastTalon> I really like the concept of streaming hardware.
[02:44:30] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: not sure if that' s possible either. only if I am very lucky and pick the right motherboard, paired with the correct power supply and so on
[02:44:32] <solidfox> i believe desktop pc gaming is the best way for gamers, because they can upgrade and keep their save data too
[02:44:38] <LastTalon> I'd love a laptop formfactor that's literally just an interface to my desktop
[02:44:44] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: power supplies are pretty standard.
[02:44:47] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: and still then I might need to upgrade my screen..
[02:44:55] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: if you need a new cpu, you just need to pick the right mobo
[02:45:32] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: yeah the upgrades could get costly still i suppose
[02:45:40] <aeth> solidfox: Generally you need to update your GPU twice as often as your CPU/RAM/mobo, and you can probably keep the same drive/case/power-supply/monitors/keyboard/mouse even longer... Definitely a much better deal even if laptops matched desktops on price-performance
[02:45:54] <solidfox> aeth: i agree
[02:46:10] <solidfox> i like controllers though
[02:46:13] <solidfox> for some games
[02:46:26] <dostoyevsky> Also, some old games on the PC are really hard to get running these days... I tried to replay dungeon keeper the other day but had really some troubles that I never had with console emulators
[02:46:29] <LastTalon> Yeah, I've kept the same case/fans/psu/monitors etc. for a long time.
[02:46:33] <solidfox> luckily computers can use controllers too
[02:46:42] <LastTalon> One of my fans decided its going to be a POS yesterday and started buzzing.
[02:46:50] <LastTalon> So I guess I'm going to try to fix/replace that.
[02:47:05] <aeth> dostoyevsky: some older games probably run better on wine than on Windows 10
[02:47:09] <LastTalon> Pretty sure its just the bearing.
[02:47:15] <LastTalon> Anyone know how to fix fans?
[02:47:17] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: well with windows 10 being the final perfect release of windows NT and super explorer we will never have compatibility issues again
[02:47:20] <LastTalon> Can I just like... wd-40 it?
[02:47:28] <dostoyevsky> aeth: Yeah, I used wine... But was quite something to configure
[02:47:56] <aeth> Steam for Linux bundles a wine fork now
[02:48:00] <solidfox> hey what do you guys think of those curved monitors and tvs
[02:48:15] <LastTalon> Kind of gimmicky.
[02:48:20] <solidfox> yeah i agree
[02:48:29] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: I like my monitors like Earth -- flat
[02:48:34] <LastTalon> What would be really cool is if they could curve to adjust your viewing distance.
[02:48:35] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: lol
[02:48:45] <aeth> solidfox: I watched the control center for New Horizons as they were getting the details in for the Ultima Thule flyby and they had two people sharing a curved screen... and it was clearly not optimal for that situation.
[02:49:02] <LastTalon> Yeah. You need to be at the focal point.
[02:49:13] <solidfox> aeth: lol rip
[02:49:33] <LastTalon> aeth, obviously they needed to make an ellipse-shaped tv
[02:49:45] <LastTalon> Then it would have two focal points and both could watch. :D
[02:49:59] <aeth> LastTalon: no, what you'd want is a contact binary screen, which would be optimal for two people
[02:50:01] <solidfox> lets just make 3d projections that are suspended all around us
[02:50:09] * LastTalon gets out a spirograph
[02:50:13] <solidfox> and you can virtually twist a projection if you want
[02:50:18] <solidfox> or curve etc
[02:50:38] <solidfox> prolly impossible though
[02:51:24] <LastTalon> Holograms in scifi shows never show the practical problems associated.
[02:51:42] <LastTalon> Like half the time you see a bunch of people sitting around watching a hologram.
[02:51:54] <LastTalon> Well clearly its going to be facing away from someone if they're all in a circle.
[02:51:57] <LastTalon> UGH
[02:52:13] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: I really like Sony atm with their PS4.  Sure, games are not cheap but at least there are no microtransactions, you just pay once and have not much hassle thereafter and the games are great and also not just aimed at 12 year old girls like most stuff on mobile devices
[02:52:56] <aeth> I can't really play mobile or console because if I can't install 80 mods I'm not at home
[02:52:58] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: yes im glad they leave the microtransactions to little guys like us so we can profit
[02:53:00] <dostoyevsky> but the last time I checked the mobile market was very similar to the PS4 market in terms of money...
[02:53:13] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: i never tried ps4 but i would if i were rich
[02:53:46] <solidfox> LastTalon: i see
[02:53:52] <dostoyevsky> only that on mobile it's much easier to develop, games are mostly boring, so you can play them while commuting to work in the train
[02:53:58] <LastTalon> To me it just seems like being on a console is synonymous with having less control over your platform.
[02:54:18] <LastTalon> So obviously a worse choice to me.
[02:54:28] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: i paid for credits for attack on moe h the first time i played. but i never paid again
[02:54:39] <solidfox> i dont wanna be like that guy that spent 70,000 on microtransactions
[02:54:54] <solidfox> i wanna be on the other side of that transaction
[02:55:04] <aeth> Console's better if you're developing an exclusive, especially before the current generation where there are several different PS4s and Xbones available... because you could provide a good experience on exactly the sole configuration available.
[02:55:23] <LastTalon> Yeah, that seems to be all consoles are good for.
[02:55:27] <LastTalon> Exclusives.
[02:55:28] <aeth> But if you're playing the ga me, console's way, way worse because you can't mod it and you can't play multiplayer games that are really far out there in mods and maps. Of course, the latter is mostly gone now thanks to matchmaking
[02:55:35] <LastTalon> But that sort of goes hand in hand with giving up control.
[02:56:48] <LastTalon> You also can't really use the hardware you want auxilliary software you want or anything like that.
[02:56:49] <solidfox> heh maybe i could make a gambling site. i think its somewhat legal in PA, but you need to be a non-profit
[02:56:52] <aeth> Console developers wouldn't know what to make their carefully crafted and curated no-mods no-customization no-3rd-party-map multiplayer experiences to be if PC gaming modders didn't experiment with new things first.
[02:57:01] <dostoyevsky> so why is that many games just go insane with microtransactions and other pricing models on PC?  Is the market just not there anymore?
[02:57:25] <LastTalon> dostoyevsky, why do you think this is just a PC issue?
[02:57:34] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: they have more money saved up from not buying consoles...
[02:57:51] <solidfox> lol jk
[02:58:33] <solidfox> aeth: some people hacked gtav for ps3
[02:58:42] <solidfox> aeth: that is like mods right
[02:58:58] <aeth> dostoyevsky: why make money when you can make all of the money? that's why you have loot boxes.
[02:59:06] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: Sony doesn't do it.. they just make the games like 50% more expensive from the start... which ofc they can do because they set the price, but it's not like you don't want to play a game that is really good and would just play a cheaper game that is not as good
[02:59:06] <solidfox> speaking of which, nintendo switch homebrew is really starting to kick off
[02:59:22] <aeth> dostoyevsky: Someone can pay $20 for a hat or they can pay $2 20 times for a chance at getting that same hat.
[02:59:33] <LastTalon> That doesn't mean its only on pc
[02:59:47] <solidfox> aeth: gacha?
[02:59:58] <LastTalon> Also not sure what you mean by sony doesn't do it.
[03:00:08] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: microtransactions
[03:00:14] <aeth> If you want to avoid gambling in games, the easiest place is probably going to be PC because indies don't really do it and the lowest barrier to publishing is always going to be PC
[03:00:20] <LastTalon> Okay, but sony isn't really making a whole lot of games right now.
[03:00:38] <aeth> If you want to pay $15-$25 and get 300+ hours out of that one experience, there are plenty of PC games to do that with, e.g. Factorio.
[03:00:40] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: or making a conference, telling everyone that the next iteration of god of war will be exclusively for mobiel
[03:00:48] <solidfox> but can i afford a lot of pu erh tea if i make a pay to win game?
[03:00:50] <aeth> s/out of that one experience/out of that one transaction/
[03:01:22] <solidfox> with gambling microtxs and gacha
[03:01:26] <solidfox> and loot boxes
[03:01:32] <aeth> I don't really play AAA games anymore because they're mostly the exact same games from 10+ years ago, but with prettier graphics and loot boxes.
[03:01:46] <LastTalon> dostoyevsky, I'm really not sure what you're on about.
[03:02:14] <aeth> Except modern AAA games are also padded out with a lot more empty content that no one is ever going to bother getting to.
[03:02:41] <solidfox> whats the most cost-effective payment processor for a n00b micro tx indie game developer
[03:03:00] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: I want to know that too
[03:03:10] <aeth> Cost-effective? If you go mobile you have no choice (Apple or Google) and if you go PC you have no choice (Valve).
[03:03:15] <LastTalon> aeth, its all just a matter of money being left on the table.
[03:03:22] <aeth> Only the big players can afford to not be on Steam.
[03:03:38] <dostoyevsky> aeth: you could make a website and let people buy your game there, no?
[03:03:51] <solidfox> aeth: newegg recently enabled apple pay, but you dont have to use it, you can ask for cc in your interface as long as you're pci compliant
[03:03:52] <aeth> dostoyevsky: Yes, but now you have double the infrastructure unless you're just selling Steam keys
[03:03:53] <LastTalon> If you're a big company that's making promises to shareholders you don't leave money on the table.
[03:04:13] <aeth> dostoyevsky: I still try to buy Steam keys from the developer, though. I think they keep it all if you do.
[03:04:30] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: you probably could use stripe+some service for writing the bills
[03:04:33] <LastTalon> If you're a small indie company you can leave money on the table to garner loyalty from fans and to make the game the way you want to make it.
[03:04:54] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: ah, yes i saw stripe on my favorite tea vendor's site
[03:04:58] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: white2tea
[03:04:58] <aeth> LastTalon: And then you sell to Microsoft when you get big enough.
[03:05:01] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: but I am not sure on the details
[03:05:14] <LastTalon> aeth, yeah, just don't let the big companies eat you.
[03:05:17] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: shopify maybe even too
[03:05:22] <LastTalon> Sell the IP, not the dev team.
[03:05:26] <solidfox> he's always flexing his margins though, stripe might be expensive
[03:05:45] <LastTalon> Never sell the dev team, they'll assimilate you.
[03:05:48] <solidfox> giving away free teaware, and free 3kg cakes of white tea
[03:06:45] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: we could maybe call stripe to setup a meeting
[03:06:53] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: they're a b2b they love meetings
[03:06:56] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: haha
[03:07:03] <solidfox> demo
[03:07:11] <LastTalon> Cuz that's exactly what'll happen. You sign with a big company/publisher they'll tell you, "look, you can be making 3x as much money if you just do this..." and you really won't have the capacity to fight it.
[03:07:11] <dostoyevsky> let me quickly order the cookies for the meeting
[03:08:36] <LastTalon> And then all of a sudden, poof your team is gone, spread to the winds in different areas of the company.
[03:10:10] <solidfox> my mic doesnt work so pick smth that can do call ins from phone
[03:11:39] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: https://www.hopperapp.com/
[03:11:50] <aeth> solidfox: free teaware? You should start the Free Teaware Foundation.
[03:11:59] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: try to buy it and see what they are using...
[03:12:06] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: ok
[03:12:11] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: fastspring
[03:12:17] <LastTalon> Tea? You should talk to beaky.
[03:12:35] <aeth> Tea? No, Tea is in another channel, coffee is here.
[03:12:51] <dostoyevsky> https://fastspring.com/
[03:13:43] <LastTalon> Turning players into payers.™
[03:14:22] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: yes fast spring
[03:14:45] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: what are their margins?
[03:14:49] <solidfox> also they seem to be norton secure, i wonder if their form put them within scope?
[03:15:41] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: idk but they're always flexing them. there was a after thanksgiving sale, an after black friday sell. a black friday sell, a christmas sale, an after christmas sell, and a new years sale.
[03:16:22] <solidfox> LastTalon: heheh nice
[03:16:37] <solidfox> gotta pay for all the tea somehow
[03:17:04] <LastTalon> The ultimate goal: Figuring out how to get gamers to pay for my tea habits. :P
[03:17:09] <solidfox> yes
[03:17:57] <dostoyevsky> https://old.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/5u6oss/if_not_steam_whats_your_favourite_stores_to/
[03:18:17] <aeth> LastTalon: Pay for *your* tea? No way! I'm going to dump it in the harbor instead because that's the patriotic thing to do!
[03:18:20] <dostoyevsky> people seem to like fastspring there as well, as an alternative over steam
[03:18:31] <LastTalon> aeth, but they did that to their own tea. :D
[03:18:38] <LastTalon> Cuz tax
[03:18:40] <LastTalon> :D
[03:18:44] <aeth> LastTalon: because it was taxed to pay for *their* tea
[03:18:49] <LastTalon> Exactly.
[03:18:52] <LastTalon> Now you're thinking.
[03:18:53] <aeth> (where else would the taxes have gone?)
[03:19:00] <LastTalon> How do I pay for my tea? Tax someone else's tea. :D
[03:19:16] * LastTalon should teach economics using only tea analogies and metaphors
[03:19:17] <aeth> yes and you can keep that pattern going on for infinitea
[03:19:31] <aeth> Just build a pyramid structure where the base gets taxed to pay for the next level up
[03:19:41] <LastTalon> Pyramid scheme? No thanks.
[03:20:03] * LastTalon starts a pyramid ponzi scheme.
[03:20:15] <aeth> LastTalon: too late, I'm sure 100 people have already done that in cryptocurrency
[03:20:17] <LastTalon> If you give me 1 tea I'll give you 2 tea in the future. :D
[03:20:21] <solidfox> well any floor dust tea belongs in the harbor anywhere
[03:20:27] <solidfox> i only drink high quality shengs
[03:20:34] <aeth> what tea do you drink
[03:20:37] <solidfox> aged pu erh tea
[03:20:40] <aeth> wrong answer
[03:20:52] <solidfox> o
[03:20:58] <aeth> Twinings Earl Gray is the only tea.
[03:21:03] <solidfox> yeah actually i like mainstream tea too.
[03:21:03] <LastTalon> Earl grey. Hot.
[03:21:06] <LastTalon> aeth, is correct.
[03:21:13] <aeth> sorry, Earl Grey because he's from the other side of the ocean
[03:21:16] <LastTalon> Their earl grey is great.
[03:21:18] <solidfox> pu erh enabled me to drink without sugar though
[03:21:23] <solidfox> it strengthened my palate
[03:21:32] <solidfox> oh yeah game dev
[03:21:52] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: interesting. so fast spring is a payment processor or like steam?
[03:21:56] <LastTalon> And I'm still out of earl grey. D:<
[03:22:11] * LastTalon shouts at google home and/or alexa
[03:22:22] <solidfox> haha nice
[03:22:30] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: payment processor... and then you use your own website
[03:22:36] <solidfox> my work had a google home that was connecting to my pc to chrome all the time
[03:22:42] <solidfox> i blocked it in my firewall. that was weird
[03:22:52] <LastTalon> ?
[03:22:54] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: nice
[03:22:57] <LastTalon> What was it doing to your pc?
[03:23:05] <solidfox> LastTalon: i have no idea, it was encrypted data
[03:23:12] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: might hurt discoverability though, if you are not on steam
[03:23:14] <solidfox> LastTalon: but it was connecting to my chrome processes
[03:23:21] <LastTalon> It shouldn't have had access to your pc. Lol
[03:23:31] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: yeah, the game i paid for credits on was on nutaku.net (nsfw)
[03:23:39] <solidfox> so it was popular
[03:23:55] <dostoyevsky> https://old.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/767lru/which_payment_gateway_do_you_use_fastspring_fees/
[03:24:01] <solidfox> not sure how we could market outside of a outsourced hosted solution
[03:24:20] <dostoyevsky> so fastspring is 6%+$1 but stripe is only 2.75%
[03:24:47] <LastTalon> Ooh, related rates problem.
[03:24:48] <LastTalon> I like it.
[03:25:04] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: oh nice. i like stripe then. most of the micro txs should be like less than a dollar, and the credits should be like packages of credits. $30 for 1000 credits for example..
[03:25:18] <LastTalon> What about paypal?
[03:26:12] <LastTalon> Paypal is 2.9%+$0.3
[03:26:17] <LastTalon> Do math!
[03:26:35] <solidfox> 2.9 isnt the lowest but it should at least be an option
[03:26:47] <solidfox> LastTalon: i'd say support both stripe and paypal and we've got a winner
[03:27:09] <solidfox> many people trust paypal
[03:27:11] <LastTalon> Yeah
[03:27:17] <LastTalon> Its big and consumers trust it.
[03:28:19] <solidfox> next we've just gotta do exponential costs for upgrades in the game (using in game collecting item) and offer to purchase them with the credits. OR you can purchase the upgrade you need directly with a microtx
[03:28:37] <solidfox> but the rate will be more profitable for a microtx, and the credits will be better for volume
[03:29:49] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: do you work for EA?
[03:30:15] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: no im just copying that game i mentioned earlier. they made me sad when they took away my chance to unlock santa reindeer prancer
[03:30:24] <solidfox> she was so cute
[03:31:16] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: this is a win win
[03:31:37] <solidfox> dostoyevsky: if the user wants to spend little they can use a micro tx. but if they want to get a lot for a good deal, they use the credits
[03:33:53] <solidfox> 500 new players a day, 200 of them try a microtransaction for 3.00 that is 600 bucks a day
[03:34:34] <R2robot> ~40% conversion rate is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooper optimistic
[03:34:47] <solidfox> lol yeah, im just on a manic rant
[03:35:27] <LastTalon> aeth, were you saying earlier that steam doesn't take a cut on direct key sales?
[03:35:44] <LastTalon> Wondering if you have any reliable sources on that, cuz I've been wondering about it.
[03:36:26] <aeth> LastTalon: I don't think they do, but I've never sold anything on Steam so I'm not sure.
[03:36:39] <LastTalon> Well if you did you'd be under NDA.
[03:36:47] <LastTalon> So you wouldn't be able to tell me what it was. :P
[03:37:04] <aeth> then I guess we'll never know because no one ever speaks about Steam's internals
[03:37:08] <LastTalon> But sometimes people let it slip. Was just wondering if you had anything reliable.
[03:38:25] <solidfox> have you guys read the art of war
[03:38:44] <dostoyevsky> solidfox: I have written it
[03:39:03] <solidfox> "if you are close you must appear far, if you are able you must seem able"
[03:39:10] <aeth> LastTalon: nice try, gaben
[03:39:28] <LastTalon> Lol
[03:39:43] * LastTalon imagines gaben sifting through irc and forums trying to find people who broke NDA
[03:39:46] <solidfox> "if you want to collect money from users that would prefer to pay 100% to the developers, let the devs buy keys from us secretly to sell to the users"
[03:39:53] <solidfox> its the same principle
[03:40:35] <LastTalon> I would assume you're correct on it.
[03:41:06] <LastTalon> Lots of things use this principle of "here are your tickets to sell where you get 100%, and we'll also sell them for you, but we'll take 30%." or whatever.
[03:42:01] <solidfox> yeah probably it is really 100% to the devs
[03:43:01] <aeth> (1) You're effectively advertising Steam and making them bring up Steam which by default has an ad popup and opens to the store (you can remove the popup and default to the library in the settings, though), (2) IAP that's not DLC probably goes through them, and also trading cards, and probably a few other things
[03:43:42] <LastTalon> Right.
[03:43:49] <LastTalon> Its sort of like a theatre doing it.
[03:43:53] <aeth> oh and (3) most people who have Steam already will buy it through Steam because it's much easier, so in effect it's mostly #1 and not existing Steam users
[03:44:10] <LastTalon> They're just hosting the content you made, but they also make money from their own ticket sales and the concessions and whatever else.
[03:44:27] *** mobile_c <mobile_c!~mgood@2405:7f00:8a02:df00:d51b:f34:894f:29e4> has joined #gamedev
[03:44:52] <LastTalon> So if you're selling the content elsewhere its only beneficial to bring those sales to your venue
[03:45:32] <aeth> oh, and finally (4) if you sell Steam keys you're strongly encouraged by how things work to only make it available through Steam because if you give a key and a game then lots of people will just sell the key and you lose sales
[03:46:22] <LastTalon> If you sold the key you aren't losing sales...
[03:46:24] <LastTalon> You already sold it
[03:47:07] <aeth> LastTalon: You're in effect selling two copies if you sell the key with a DRM free download, and some percentage of the people will sell the Steam key on a third party market, which will cost you a sale (it'll be below the marked price, but it'd cost you a sale sale, if you know what I mean... i.e. someone who could have bought it in the Winter Sale or whatever)
[03:47:12] <solidfox> well. if you sell 1 key. the person plays the game, and they resell it to someone. then two people used the same key to play the game at different times
[03:47:29] <LastTalon> Well thats different from what you said.
[03:47:44] <aeth> LastTalon: well, yes, you can also make people choose between the downloaded copy and Steam
[03:47:46] <LastTalon> A DRM free download is obviously going to have problems cuz it doesn't need a key to verify it.
[03:47:47] <aeth> I've only seen that a few times, though
[03:48:12] <solidfox> yes DRM is the only way to ensure our electronic assets can continue doing what the do best, financial transactions.
[03:48:38] <LastTalon> Some indie devs do really like their "drm free" stuff.
[03:48:59] <solidfox> yeah, thats what they value
[03:49:00] <LastTalon> Steam keys aren't really that bad though.
[03:49:06] <LastTalon> As far as DRM goes
[03:49:41] <LastTalon> But I mean a drm free copy of the game could mean infinite lost sales.
[03:49:48] <LastTalon> Piracy fearmongering commence
[03:50:19] <LastTalon> Without any drm you literally could just redistribute that drm free copy to anyone you want.
[03:50:19] <aeth> LastTalon: I think the difference is that a Steam key seems way more legitimate to people than a pirated copy
[03:50:22] <solidfox> yes well now that my only "skill" is coding, i feel bad about pirating software in the past
[03:51:07] <LastTalon> aeth, I mean... it is still going to show up for people on piracy sites which could contribute to lost sales.
[03:51:13] <solidfox> but if we made everything free then we wouldnt need drm
[03:51:31] <LastTalon> So if you're doing that you will have that problem to face regardless.
[03:51:41] <solidfox> i could do work, and get the resources i need from the single payor
[03:51:50] <solidfox> in other words communism
[03:52:02] <LastTalon> If you're going to say that selling the key you get with the game is a lost sale you gotta complain about copypasting your game as a lost sale.
[03:52:24] <LastTalon> Its just whether you're doing that once or doing it multiple times.
[03:53:16] <aeth> LastTalon: I think the difference is that it's not illegal to sell the 2nd copy when you're technically selling two versions of the game at once for the price of one
[03:53:30] <LastTalon> Technically not illegal, no.
[03:53:46] <LastTalon> But we weren't really talking about what was legal.
[03:53:53] <LastTalon> Rather what's going to lose you a sale.
[03:54:34] <LastTalon> Selling the key is going to lose you one sale, whereas they could ctrl+c ctrl+v your game and lose you potentially more.
[03:54:58] <LastTalon> Ignoring whether or not any of that can truly be counted as a lost sale.
[03:55:17] <LastTalon> The person buying the discount key or the pirated copy download may never have bought your game otherwise.
[03:55:32] <solidfox> is it better to do game dev from scratch or with an engine?
[03:55:41] <aeth> LastTalon: pirates are never going to buy your game but might if it is good enough... someone buying it on a discounted site might have bought it in a bundle or on sale but now never will
[03:55:53] <solidfox> cause i'm pretty proud of the state pattern i came up with
[03:55:57] <LastTalon> You can't prove either
[03:56:00] <solidfox> i feel like i can do anything now
[03:56:12] <solidfox> MGS clone even. would just be a lot of work
[03:56:36] <LastTalon> The person pirating the game might have bought the game at full price if the drm free copy weren't available.
[03:56:39] <solidfox> /s/came up with/implemented
[03:56:43] <LastTalon> You can never prove it one way or the other.
[03:56:47] <aeth> solidfox: you invented the state pattern? which one of the four are you?
[03:56:55] <solidfox> aeth: my bad. misspoke
[03:57:38] <solidfox> what i did was realized i dont need a circular reference in cpp, i can just use forward declarations
[03:58:12] <solidfox> thank the C gods for forward declarations!
[03:58:39] <LastTalon> When I was young and had no money I pirated games because I couldn't afford them. Later when I could afford them I still sometimes pirated games. Then I grew out of it and stopped because I realized how shitty that is. People pirate games for all sorts of reasons.
[03:59:01] <solidfox> LastTalon: yeah its understandable if you cant afford it
[03:59:36] <LastTalon> You also have the people who don't care because piracy is always cheaper.
[04:00:14] <LastTalon> But there is a group of people who would have bought the game if it weren't so easy to pirate. Gaben was right when he said piracy is a service problem.
[04:00:18] <aeth> In some countries pretty much the only way to get games was a pirated CD-ROM of them... I wonder how that has changed with digital distribution, though.
[04:00:56] <aeth> Even if they're pirating online though at least they're no longer paying $5 to a middleman who burns CDs, though.
[04:01:51] <LastTalon> And a DRM free game is super easy to pirate.
[04:02:20] <LastTalon> I remember quite a few games back in the day that people at school would share on flash drives because you could literally just copy the folder.
[04:03:18] <aeth> LastTalon: If you're an indie DRM won't help you. DRM will only help you for big AAA releases where all of your sales are in the first two months or so and then you yourself discount it 75%-90% off later on just to get some sales later on in the long tail.
[04:03:29] <LastTalon> My highschool had a few copies of games in some ever shifting network folders (that people would move to keep them hidden) that would run right off the network.
[04:03:36] <aeth> LastTalon: Modern DRM doesn't claim to be unbreakable, it just claims to stall people long enough so impatient pirates will pay
[04:03:57] <aeth> LastTalon: If you're going to Early Acccess 4-5 years and then maintain it another 3-4, with a slow trickle of sales mostly peaking 2-3 years in, DRM won't help
[04:04:09] <LastTalon> aeth, I feel like you're just ignoring what I've said and are asserting your own agenda.
[04:04:35] <aeth> LastTalon: you're assuming that games with DRM are not going to end up on pirate sites. They do. It just takes a few months.
[04:04:45] <LastTalon> No I'm not.
[04:04:49] <LastTalon> I never said that...
[04:05:10] <aeth> < LastTalon> But I mean a drm free copy of the game could mean infinite lost sales.
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[04:05:25] <LastTalon> Yeah, I said that.
[04:05:25] <aeth> DRM free or not, people are still going to pirate it, and it's going to be approximately as easy as soon as one guy in a basement cracks the DRM
[04:05:39] <Donitzo> people still pirate games?
[04:05:44] <LastTalon> Its not as easy.
[04:05:52] <aeth> LastTalon: Once one person does it, it's easy.
[04:06:00] <aeth> And they do it because it's not easy, for the challenge.
[04:06:03] <aeth> Why give them the challenge?
[04:06:06] <LastTalon> Giving people a game with nothing to crack and having to crack the game are different things.
[04:06:08] <Donitzo> it's risky more than anything
[04:06:15] <Donitzo> nothing like installing malware on your computer
[04:06:26] <aeth> also risky that your ISP might catch you
[04:06:30] <solidfox> yeah im more worried about the malware than the moral issue
[04:06:31] <Donitzo> meh
[04:06:35] <Donitzo> that's not as big a problem
[04:06:42] <solidfox> aeth: isps dont care that much
[04:06:50] <aeth> solidfox: shhh this is #gamedev
[04:06:55] <aeth> solidfox: ISPs care. Don't pirate.
[04:07:02] <LastTalon> ISPs don't care.
[04:07:05] <LastTalon> Lol
[04:07:05] <Donitzo> malware authors care less
[04:07:09] <solidfox> yes. beware. also vpns and tor dont work
[04:07:18] <solidfox> ive been saying that (non-ironically) from the beginning
[04:07:19] <aeth> nothing works, pirates always get caught, don't do it, not even once
[04:07:25] <Donitzo> I'd rather have my ISP whine to me than have my online identity stolen
[04:08:07] <solidfox> Donitzo: wut
[04:08:12] <pulse> i for one welcome pirates
[04:08:14] <pulse> free promotion
[04:08:24] <solidfox> were you guys around for my game idea
[04:08:30] <pulse> also if your game is being pirated, that implies it's good enough to get pirated
[04:08:38] <solidfox> it was great, dostoyevsky even put me on par with EA
[04:08:49] <aeth> pulse: idk, I'm sure someone has a dump of like every hentai game on Steam or something
[04:08:59] * pulse shrugs
[04:09:03] <aeth> pulse: Also games that become notoriously bad are probably very pirated
[04:09:12] <aeth> Because no one wants to pay for it
[04:09:16] <pulse> i pirate games that aren't available anymore and i have 0 moral issues with that
[04:09:17] <LastTalon> aeth, so I assume that none of your games are going to be sold on steam then?
[04:09:18] <solidfox> lol it was sorta a critical on par, ;)
[04:09:20] <pulse> or those that cost $500 on ebay
[04:09:27] <pulse> like, either make a game available or imma pirate it
[04:09:35] <Donitzo> I never had a moral issue with pirating
[04:09:40] <solidfox> pulse: makes sense
[04:09:42] <Donitzo> I pirated stuff when I couldn't afford it
[04:09:46] <dostoyevsky> I don't pirate games because I mostly play on the ps4 :)
[04:09:50] <Donitzo> or when it wasn't available
[04:09:54] <aeth> LastTalon: I think the best way to make it in game dev is to sell one copy for $1,000,000. That person is probably not going to let it get on the pirate sites or their investment is now worthless, so the user actually does all the anti-piracy protections.
[04:10:00] <Donitzo> my friend however likes to pretend to have the high moral ground and calls me a thief
[04:10:01] <pulse> Donitzo, same here, but that was in the past when i was poor
[04:10:05] <pulse> nowadays i just buy it off gog if it's available
[04:10:12] <Donitzo> says I shouldn't be allowed to watch tv shows if they're not broadcast over here
[04:10:14] <pulse> in the past though everything was pirated, at least in my country
[04:10:15] <LastTalon> Riiight.
[04:10:16] <Donitzo> that I should have self control
[04:10:54] <pulse> i also pirate roms, but don't tell nintendo
[04:10:57] <pulse> :D
[04:11:06] * solidfox writes down pulse
[04:11:31] <solidfox> jk im not nintendo
[04:11:41] <solidfox> /whois solidfox
[04:11:45] <LastTalon> No, a basic form of DRM is fine and useful. If you think its not I think you're deluding yourself in some way. Either conflating basic DRM with obtuse and obstructive forms of DRM or you've convinced yourself that a lot of things will happen exactly the same regardless of what you do.
[04:11:50] <aeth> solidfox: you're obviously konami
[04:11:56] <LastTalon> Something like that.
[04:12:00] <LunarJetman> is nintendo still a thing?
[04:12:02] <Donitzo> what even does DRM mean anymore
[04:12:06] <Donitzo> we don't use DVDs
[04:12:20] <LastTalon> Donitzo, well I was talking about steam keys.
[04:12:22] <solidfox> aeth: get ready for MGSV 2 Guns of Pachinko
[04:12:24] <LastTalon> If that helps.
[04:12:35] <Donitzo> as opposed to what?
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[04:12:43] <Donitzo> just releasing the game as an executable
[04:12:45] <Donitzo> which anyone can run
[04:12:46] <aeth> solidfox: everyone knows that Metal Gear Royale is coming.
[04:12:49] <Donitzo> that would be stupid
[04:12:50] <LastTalon> As opposed to just giving people a raw executable without a key.
[04:12:57] <LastTalon> Yeah, well thats what I said.
[04:12:58] <solidfox> aeth: haha
[04:13:04] <LastTalon> Lol
[04:13:21] <solidfox> hope i can play as emma
[04:13:22] <pulse> logically, pirating should ruin the game industry
[04:13:25] <solidfox> my waifu
[04:13:27] <Donitzo> not really
[04:13:29] <pulse> but somehow the game industry is bigger than the music industry and the movie industry combined
[04:13:30] <pulse> so
[04:13:32] <aeth> solidfox: https://store.steampowered.com/app/527340/What_The_Box/
[04:13:32] <Donitzo> piracy isn't 100% of all transactions
[04:13:33] * pulse shrugs
[04:13:44] <LastTalon> pulse, also not true
[04:13:46] <solidfox> she specializes in ultra variable high volume complex logic
[04:14:03] <pulse> LastTalon, an article i read the other day said that
[04:14:08] <pulse> but i think it only holds true for UK
[04:14:14] <Donitzo> people pay for the convenience
[04:14:16] <LastTalon> Unless things have changed wildly its wrong
[04:14:17] <solidfox> aeth: lol
[04:14:19] <solidfox> this is awesome
[04:14:23] <Donitzo> if it's less of a PITA to pay for games people will
[04:14:27] <LastTalon> The movie industry alone is probably bigger than the games industry.
[04:14:32] <Donitzo> and especially since there is such a huge abundance of cheap games
[04:14:37] <Donitzo> that even kids can afford them
[04:14:39] <Donitzo> why pirate at all
[04:14:48] <pulse> LastTalon, https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/03/video-games-now-popular-music-movies-combined-8304980/
[04:15:07] <pulse> not sure about the source
[04:15:09] <pulse> but this is the article i read
[04:15:36] <pulse> imagine the money rdr2 makes
[04:15:40] <pulse> it has to be off the charts
[04:15:48] <Donitzo> imagine the dev costs too
[04:15:55] <Donitzo> and the people who needs to be paid
[04:16:00] <pulse> i'm sure it's like 0.1%, lol
[04:16:05] <Donitzo> Doubt it
[04:16:08] <pulse> i don't
[04:16:14] <pulse> it's incredibly popular
[04:16:18] <pulse> it's not even on the PC yet
[04:16:19] <solidfox> what engine do you recomend for a n00b who is also a super elite programmer
[04:16:21] <pulse> they don't even care
[04:16:31] <pulse> solidfox, make your own if you're l33t
[04:16:40] <solidfox> pulse: that'd take me ages
[04:17:05] <pulse> fair point
[04:17:06] <Donitzo> what type
[04:17:07] <Donitzo> 2d, 3d
[04:17:16] <solidfox> Donitzo: uh 3d. everyone loves 3d
[04:17:19] <Donitzo> what platforms
[04:17:32] <solidfox> Donitzo: uh windows 10 i guess
[04:17:36] <Donitzo> unity or godot
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[04:17:47] <solidfox> (i use linux but i would accept windows 10 as a target)
[04:17:51] <Donitzo> UDK if you're feeling masochistic
[04:17:52] <solidfox> (for money)
[04:18:06] <solidfox> Donitzo: ah
[04:18:11] <Donitzo> Unity has a nice community around it
[04:18:14] <LastTalon> pulse, looks like the ERA tracks retail sales.
[04:18:15] <Donitzo> plenty of example scripts
[04:18:27] <LastTalon> And I'd believe that videogame retail sales are way higher than film or music sales.
[04:18:32] <LastTalon> They don't make most of their money in retail.
[04:18:35] <notus> pretty sure RDR2 dev costs were around 800 million to 1 billion, so definitely not 0.1%
[04:18:35] <solidfox> Donitzo: what if i wanna develop on linux but release for windows 10 and linux
[04:18:39] <notus> was the most expensive game they ever made
[04:18:40] <Donitzo> still unity
[04:18:43] <solidfox> ok
[04:18:48] <solidfox> great
[04:19:06] <Donitzo> ... well... I'm waiting
[04:19:09] <LastTalon> But if you want to count all of digital sales, royalties, box office sales, etc. then I'm pretty sure film and music is way bigger.
[04:19:10] <Donitzo> where are all the unity naysayers
[04:19:40] <solidfox> "Unity is available for Windows or Mac OS X"
[04:19:40] <LastTalon> That's what makes videogames so small comparatively actually. Videogames don't have all the different revenue streams film and music have.
[04:19:56] <solidfox> Donitzo: isnt unreal the one that is on linux
[04:20:05] <LastTalon> Unity works on linux.
[04:20:11] <solidfox> wine?
[04:20:14] <LastTalon> Its technically some beta build or something.
[04:20:16] <LastTalon> But it works fine.
[04:20:25] <LastTalon> Nah, it runs normally.
[04:20:28] <solidfox> oh like a tarball?
[04:20:29] <LastTalon> No need for wine or anything.
[04:20:37] <Donitzo> the problem I perseonally have with UDK is its scripting language
[04:20:41] <Donitzo> I much prefer proper C#
[04:20:53] <Donitzo> personally*
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[04:20:59] <solidfox> i dont see it on their downloads page
[04:21:29] <solidfox> oh i have to sign up for beta testing
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[04:21:51] <LastTalon> solidfox, you can also download it here I think. https://forum.unity.com/threads/unity-on-linux-release-notes-and-known-issues.350256/
[04:22:31] <solidfox> that seems barely legitimate
[04:22:44] * Donitzo drops monocle
[04:22:47] <solidfox> like sure its on unity.com, but a forum post lol
[04:23:03] <LastTalon> Like I said its technically experimental.
[04:23:05] <solidfox> oh its a link not an attachment
[04:23:08] <LastTalon> But it works just fine.
[04:23:10] <solidfox> ok
[04:23:13] <LastTalon> I've used it in the past.
[04:23:18] <solidfox> Donitzo: here you droped this
[04:23:35] <LastTalon> Assuming you can get all your graphics drivers working on linux.
[04:23:47] <Donitzo> in unity you can tell all meta files to be in plain text
[04:23:50] <solidfox> i have a acer laptop
[04:23:59] <solidfox> from amazon
[04:24:00] <Donitzo> meaning your entire project can be nothing but plain text files + 3d models/audio/textures
[04:24:06] <Donitzo> that's something I really like
[04:24:11] <LastTalon> Donitzo, yup.
[04:24:48] <LastTalon> I hate having to deal with large binary project files.
[04:25:09] <LastTalon> solidfox, apparently "Unity Hub is now the preferred way to install Unity for Linux."
[04:25:12] <Donitzo> binary files make me paranoid
[04:25:25] <Donitzo> "Have these files been altered in any way?"
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[04:26:57] <solidfox> yup just saw that and im downloading the unity hub
[04:27:55] <solidfox> file UnityHubSetup.AppImage
[04:27:56] <solidfox> UnityHubSetup.AppImage: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, BuildID[sha1]=79dcc4e55a61c293c5e19edbd8d65b202842579f, stripped
[04:28:23] <solidfox> oh executable bit
[04:28:37] <mobile_c> solidfox: use '/cmd' instead
[04:28:47] <Donitzo> +xxx
[04:29:13] <mobile_c> easier then copy paste
[04:30:11] <solidfox> mobile_c: oh thanks
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[04:31:01] <Donitzo> and now I need a simple water surface
[04:31:07] <Donitzo> well, at least that I know how to do
[04:31:11] <Donitzo> still a pain
[04:31:33] <solidfox> try a Super Water Surface
[04:32:06] <Donitzo> I'll just use a dynamic vertex buffer with a few tone generators
[04:32:06] <LastTalon> I like unity.
[04:33:01] <LastTalon> Seems that UE4 is liked by artists.
[04:33:06] <LastTalon> But I'm not an artist.
[04:33:31] <Donitzo> ofc
[04:33:35] <Donitzo> they can't see the shitty scripts
[04:33:45] <LastTalon> Is that why?
[04:33:48] <Donitzo> idunno
[04:34:00] <Donitzo> all I know is that when I saw how the scripting was organized I immidietely hated it
[04:34:09] <LastTalon> I haven't been able to figure out why they like it.
[04:34:25] <LastTalon> I suspect its because it has more pre-built things for them to use in it.
[04:34:33] <LastTalon> Like different shaders and lighting already set up for them to use.
[04:36:11] <LastTalon> Never really got super deep into UE4, but my first impression wasn't good.
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[04:38:31] <LastTalon> I dunno. Is there like... a pros/cons list?
[04:38:37] <Donitzo> for UDK or unity?
[04:38:48] <Donitzo> UDK obviously look and perform a lot better
[04:38:50] <Donitzo> ... for some reason
[04:39:06] <LastTalon> UE4 and Unity
[04:39:09] <Donitzo> Unity is easier to use
[04:39:28] <Donitzo> and with Unity you can program like you program a regular C# application
[04:39:34] <Donitzo> and use c++ code and stuff like that
[04:39:35] <Donitzo> no problem
[04:39:37] <LastTalon> I'm not sure that its actually true that ue4 looks/performs better. I'd like to see a true comparison.
[04:40:17] <Donitzo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqQr--TgIRo
[04:40:46] <Donitzo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2eXK025uC4
[04:41:08] <solidfox> should i get the old 2017 LTS or the latest bleeding edge beta Unity?
[04:41:35] <dostoyevsky> I am pretty sure all the shaders in UE4 have been written in plated gold
[04:41:54] <dostoyevsky> so they conduct energy much better than the ones in Unity3d
[04:41:57] <Donitzo> plated latinum
[04:42:02] <Donitzo> gold can be replicated
[04:42:23] <dostoyevsky> Nah, gold is more lit
[04:42:27] <solidfox> hmm
[04:42:40] <Donitzo> anyway, nothing is stopping you from writing the shaders in unity
[04:42:54] <Donitzo> I guess unity just have worse standard shaders
[04:42:59] <solidfox> lts i think
[04:43:15] <dostoyevsky> Donitzo: I think Unity3ds ide is very good in stopping you doing anything advanced
[04:43:20] <solidfox> but what if i need a new feature!!!
[04:43:33] <Donitzo> dostoyevsky, that's why you do everything through code and ignore the editor
[04:43:36] <Donitzo> or is that just me
[04:44:21] <Donitzo> so... unity
[04:44:27] <dostoyevsky> Donitzo: I do prefer writing games in js+webgl to unity3d or something else.. I do not grok ides or compilcated frameworks
[04:44:27] <Donitzo> learn what prefabs are and use them
[04:44:31] <Donitzo> use nothing but prefabs
[04:44:34] <Donitzo> they are life
[04:45:10] <Donitzo> Make your EnemySpawner component and fill it with enemy prefabs
[04:45:13] <Donitzo> and then spawn them
[04:45:17] <Donitzo> fun stuff like that
[04:45:37] <dostoyevsky> and most shaders have been invented by NVidia anyways, you just need to select and use them
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[04:46:55] <dostoyevsky> who would like to live in a house where all walls are made of glass?
[04:47:11] <Donitzo> Excuse to flaunt it publically
[04:47:18] <Donitzo> Hey I can't help it the walls are made out of glass
[04:47:20] <Donitzo> *bends over*
[04:47:49] <dostoyevsky> In your shower you are going to need 4 shower curtains
[04:50:29] <mobile_c> Donitzo: lel
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[04:50:52] <mobile_c> i only eat prefabs for breakfast, lunch, and dinner
[04:51:10] <mobile_c> and maybe a non prefab for desert
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[04:53:01] <dostoyevsky> mobile_c: isn't anything prefabbed in some way or another?
[04:53:32] <LastTalon> Unity isn't an ide.
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[04:53:39] <LastTalon> Its very much not integrated actually.
[04:53:42] <mobile_c> XD
[04:53:51] <LastTalon> You use a separate editor to code.
[04:53:57] <LastTalon> You use a separate editor to make models.
[04:54:04] <Donitzo> I guess you'll be using monodevelop
[04:54:11] <LastTalon> Unity just puts the pieces together.
[04:54:12] <Donitzo> or eclipse
[04:54:19] <LastTalon> I use sublime text
[04:54:20] <Donitzo> or whichever else nice C# editor there is in linux
[04:54:28] <Donitzo> meh, I guess that's fine
[04:55:09] <Donitzo> I like geany myself
[04:55:15] <Donitzo> sublime is proprietary
[04:56:05] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: I loved unity3d when I started with all the tutorials... but then I had that stupid idea of wanting to generate procedural content and that seemed like impossible.. even though that's easy-peasy in opengl or if you just have a normal API, and not just and UI
[04:56:22] <Donitzo> eh
[04:56:26] <Donitzo> I don't see the problem
[04:56:37] <Donitzo> I generated plenty of dynamic meshes
[04:56:55] <LastTalon> Yeah, people get all upset about it being proprietary.
[04:56:57] <dostoyevsky> so I just learned how to use the IDE, not really how to program using Unity3d
[04:56:59] <LastTalon> I mean a lot of it isn't proprietary
[04:57:02] <LastTalon> But the core bit is.
[04:57:25] <LastTalon> dostoyevsky, it does have a normal api.
[04:57:34] <LastTalon> Did you not want to use it or something?
[04:57:47] <LastTalon> Again, its not an IDE. If you think its an IDE that might be your trouble.
[04:58:15] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: Mind you I used unity in 2012 or something
[04:58:38] <dostoyevsky> It was an IDE, I couldn't use vim... because the tutorials didn't use vim
[04:59:07] <LastTalon> Thats a stupid reason
[04:59:09] <Donitzo> unity used to include monodevelop
[04:59:24] <LastTalon> Unity is an editor.
[04:59:56] <LastTalon> I mean it really just takes a bunch of files and creates its own files with positions and properties of everything.
[05:00:02] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: well, then there are no IDEs in your mind... even xcode is not an IDE, I use it with vim all the time... I just press F9 in xcode to compile
[05:00:03] <LastTalon> It really just tells how things are hooked up.
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[05:00:28] <LastTalon> Unity is not an IDE because its definitely not integrated.
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[05:00:38] <LastTalon> I could not do anything in Unity without switching to some other editor at some point.
[05:00:47] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: Unity starts with an editor... no?
[05:00:54] <LastTalon> Unity is an editor.
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[05:01:06] <LastTalon> It edits the unity project files.
[05:01:11] <LastTalon> With a nice graphical interface.
[05:01:12] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: so what's not integrated about that?
[05:01:22] <LastTalon> All of your code... is done with a different editor.
[05:01:30] <LastTalon> All of your graphics are done with a different editor.
[05:01:37] <LastTalon> All of your models, all of your sound.
[05:02:00] <Donitzo> compared to something like
[05:02:04] <Donitzo> hmmm, game maker
[05:02:27] <LastTalon> I don't think it makes sense to call any game engine's editor an ide.
[05:02:48] <LastTalon> Visual studio is an ide. Eclipse is an ide.
[05:02:56] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: Good to know that all of that 5G Unity3d download is just some crap framework...
[05:03:16] <LastTalon> Some crap framework?
[05:03:51] <LastTalon> I feel like this is just a repeat of before.
[05:04:06] <LastTalon> You seem to be having a disconnected conversation from me.
[05:04:11] <LastTalon> So I'm just gonna let it go.
[05:04:29] <dostoyevsky> LastTalon: fair enough
[05:05:46] <LastTalon> Donitzo, I never really liked geany
[05:06:03] <LastTalon> Donitzo, I looked into atom cuz its similar to sublime, but it kinda runs like crap.
[05:07:48] <LastTalon> The harm that comes from using an editor I don't like as much is greater than the harm that comes from using software that isn't open source.
[05:15:46] <solidfox> LastTalon: i tolerate kate the most. with sessions and the ability to rebind keys it is almost as good as visual studio
[05:16:02] <solidfox> only missing thing is the ability to cut line and paste line
[05:16:06] <aeth> GNU Emacs is the only valid editor.
[05:16:12] <solidfox> but lines can be selected and moved
[05:16:31] <solidfox> aeth: yeah if you want an editor that could be its own OS
[05:16:43] <LastTalon> That's a lie. Emacs is a great operating system.
[05:16:46] <LastTalon> Sadly it has no editor.
[05:16:54] <solidfox> yes thats why there is vim for emacs
[05:17:04] <aeth> M-x term RET RET ed RET
[05:17:10] <aeth> Now you have the standard text editor
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[05:17:32] <solidfox> ed?
[05:17:47] <solidfox> that was before my time
[05:18:02] <aeth> It just got a new release. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18823391
[05:18:03] <solidfox> (today is national roast day, forgive me)
[05:18:07] <solidfox> o
[05:19:11] <LastTalon> Kate looks alright.
[05:19:17] <LastTalon> Admitedly I haven't tried it.
[05:20:51] <solidfox> yes there is also built in ctags integration terminal (i choose not to use it) and of course your project files are shown on the left (although it makes me sad i dont use dolphin more)
[05:21:31] <solidfox> missing a comma between ctags integration, and terminal
[05:22:56] <LastTalon> Idk. Like most editors though, I'm sure if I tried it I'd find something that I like to do in sublime that I can't do in it.
[05:24:18] <dostoyevsky> aeth: ctags support should bring ed one step closer to a full-fledged C IDE
[05:24:32] <solidfox> yeah
[05:24:50] <solidfox> there's always _something_
[05:26:45] <aeth> dostoyevsky: Emacs already is an IDE, it's just that the extent to which it works as an IDE varies depending on the language.
[05:27:02] <aeth> The best supported language is probably Common Lisp and then it slowly drops from there
[05:28:22] <dostoyevsky> aeth:I am not sure if one should compare emacs lisp to common lisp
[05:28:41] <aeth> dostoyevsky: I know, I'm saying the best supported language in Emacs is Common Lisp, not even Emacs Lisp
[05:28:53] <dostoyevsky> oh, interesting
[05:29:43] <LastTalon> solidfox, this says kate's ctags are through a plugin
[05:29:50] <LastTalon> Not built in
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[05:37:26] <mobile_c> what is the most effiecent way to create a non-static lazer that emits light and that moves torawds its target from its source and isnt instant hit type of distance
[05:38:05] <mobile_c> as using HQ lights makes my fps 0.6
[05:41:17] <R2robot> Vim > emacs and all others.  Don't @ me
[05:41:30] <mobile_c> and with the lights as non HQ fps is 5 and with no lights my fps is 20
[05:41:50] <mobile_c> @R2robot: hai
[05:41:56] <R2robot> no
[05:41:58] <mobile_c> XD
[05:42:10] <R2robot> :P
[05:43:31] <LastTalon> Apparently sublime text has an issue with certain unicode diacritics.
[05:43:41] <mobile_c> as im trying to create a sense of immense heat wich just isnt possible without lighting as it just looks like a red line otherwise
[05:43:42] <LastTalon> That people are very upset about, but I could care less.
[05:43:46] <LastTalon> couldn't*
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[05:46:13] <aeth> LastTalon: what's fun is that could and couldn't mean the same thing there
[05:46:20] <aeth> not sure how you'd actually negate it
[05:46:22] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: ##vim has >1k users, #emacs only like 600
[05:46:35] <dostoyevsky> seems like vim has won...
[05:46:37] <LastTalon> "could care less" would imply that you care some amount.
[05:46:50] <aeth> dostoyevsky: #emacs is very noisy and full of off-topic stuff
[05:46:53] <R2robot> \(´▽`)/
[05:46:58] <aeth> I purge noisy channels
[05:47:12] <aeth> I'm sure a lot of people do that
[05:47:21] <R2robot> couldn't care less is correct
[05:47:34] <dostoyevsky> aeth: happens to many channels with >1k users...
[05:47:37] <LastTalon> Like apparently this is a very big issue for thai people.
[05:47:44] <aeth> LastTalon: It's an idiom. Idioms don't require logic
[05:47:44] * LastTalon shrugs
[05:48:04] <LastTalon> But I can't read any thai characters.
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[05:48:23] <dostoyevsky> unicode diacrits are evil
[05:48:40] <LastTalon> And its apparently closed and is marked as fixed.
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[05:48:50] <LastTalon> So.. I guess its fixed now?
[05:48:56] <LastTalon> But it was open for like 4 years
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[05:49:18] <dostoyevsky> t̴̡̲̝̘̰͙̫̜̫͑̐̆̋̓͊͛̈́͌̾̀̈́͝͝ḥ̶̳̹̜̌͊͊̑͝i̵̛̜̙̟̖̟̳͈̱̗̎̀̄̓̐͂̈̆̚̕̚͠͠͝ş̵̡̤̬̫̳͇́͗̽͂̀̈́̕
[05:49:25] <LastTalon> Meanwhile I'm just sitting here wondering what kind of programming they're doing that requires so many thai characters.
[05:49:35] <dostoyevsky> what's the point of unicode supporting that?
[05:50:02] <mobile_c> tf
[05:50:04] <LastTalon> It actually just put each character individually for me in my client. Lol
[05:50:05] <mobile_c> dostoyevsky:
[05:50:34] <dostoyevsky> there should be some kind of sensible limit to combining characters in unicode but there isn't
[05:51:57] <dostoyevsky> and yet we don't have math formula support in unicode
[05:52:14] <LastTalon> That's what disappoints me.
[05:52:43] <LastTalon> Like, oh, lets add emoji, but who needs math, amirite?
[05:52:55] <notus> math is for nerds
[05:53:21] <LastTalon> And like... math formulae are for communication
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[05:53:27] <LastTalon> So logically it should be included in unicode.
[05:55:55] <mobile_c> https://imgur.com/a/G1eOXJf    rip
[05:57:06] <R2robot> lol
[05:57:31] <mobile_c> apparently we gay
[05:57:40] <R2robot> ＼(^o^)／
[05:57:48] <mobile_c> :P
[05:58:10] <R2robot> why is the topic referring to 2018?
[05:58:17] <R2robot> updated in 2019
[05:58:23] <LastTalon> Thats what the people want!
[05:58:26] <LastTalon> They voted.
[05:58:30] <LastTalon> We have to do what they want.
[05:58:32] <R2robot> we dit?
[05:58:35] <R2robot> did*
[05:58:36] <LastTalon> Just ask the UK thats how it works.
[05:58:46] <R2robot> UK lost the war
[05:59:00] <R2robot> we don't have to do what they say
[05:59:04] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: Chinese new year starts in two months... so we have some time left
[05:59:08] <LastTalon> The war?
[05:59:16] <mobile_c> lel
[05:59:28] <R2robot> LastTalon: vs the US colonies
[05:59:33] <LastTalon> I feel like no one appreciated my joke.
[05:59:36] <LastTalon> >:(
[05:59:41] <R2robot> oh
[05:59:44] <R2robot> Brexit?
[05:59:48] <LastTalon> Yeah. :P
[05:59:51] <R2robot> hahaha
[06:01:02] <LastTalon> R2robot, that's the question that won the poll though.
[06:01:10] <LastTalon> The question said 2018, so now its tehre.
[06:01:25] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: I'd guess the topic refers to people who already were gamedevs in 2018
[06:01:42] <LastTalon> No, the poll was just from 2018
[06:01:49] <LastTalon> Lol
[06:02:14] <dostoyevsky> I want to make games because I think I can do better than Carmack
[06:02:29] <R2robot> Carmack was a bit of a hack
[06:02:35] <LastTalon> Who?
[06:02:36] <R2robot> (said no one ever)
[06:03:20] <R2robot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carmack
[06:03:30] <LastTalon> :P
[06:03:34] <R2robot> :P
[06:04:03] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: yeah, have you looked at his first games?   Took him like a decade to learn proper 3d modelling
[06:04:13] <LastTalon> I feel like I might need to be more clear when I'm going to make stupid jokes.
[06:04:30] <R2robot> dostoyevsky: don't think he ever did any modeling :P
[06:04:39] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: yeah, even worse
[06:04:45] <R2robot> i remember playing his 2d shmup
[06:04:49] <LastTalon> Who needs to learn 3d modeling?
[06:04:55] <LastTalon> 3d artists I guess
[06:05:02] <RoadKillGrill> nah
[06:05:29] <R2robot> SketchUp > Blender
[06:06:11] <LastTalon> I once played with this cool 3D modeling demo thing.
[06:06:16] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: why?
[06:06:18] <LastTalon> It was super intuitive.
[06:06:33] <R2robot> dostoyevsky: personal preference :P
[06:06:35] <LastTalon> Like... you just sort of drew on it and it adjusted the 3D model to what you drew.
[06:06:49] <LastTalon> So like... you could draw arms coming out and it would make the arms.
[06:07:01] <LastTalon> Or you could cut bits out of the model and they'd go away.
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[06:07:29] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: is it easier to model things in sketchup than in blender?
[06:08:07] <R2robot> dostoyevsky: for me it is.   But i don't know how good it would be for use in games.  Never tried that
[06:08:45] <LastTalon> Is blender open source now?
[06:08:48] <LastTalon> Is that new?
[06:08:51] <LastTalon> I feel like thats new.
[06:09:10] <dostoyevsky> R2robot: Yeah, one would need some kind of export and import of stuff and being able to define animations and some scripting API at least imho
[06:09:15] <R2robot> ihttps://www.sketchup.com/3Dfor/game-design
[06:09:41] <LastTalon> I used this in the past. http://www.anim8or.com/
[06:09:42] <R2robot> https://blog.sketchup.com/sketchupdate/using-sketchup-and-unity-craft-stunning-game-environments
[06:10:12] <mobile_c> welp imma hop on linux
[06:10:23] <R2robot> LastTalon: only 18 years to reach v 1.0 :D
[06:10:52] <LastTalon> Whoo!
[06:11:01] <R2robot> sadly only for windows
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[06:12:06] <LastTalon> I do remember you could make some stunningly pretty stuff in it.
[06:12:16] <LastTalon> It could render with a raytracer.
[06:12:26] <LastTalon> So it could make incredibly photorealistic stuff.
[06:12:42] <R2robot> neat
[06:13:00] <LastTalon> So like... it would actually take a million years to trace out a ray from each pixel in the render.
[06:13:07] <LastTalon> And make beautiful images.
[06:13:17] <LastTalon> It would take a long time though.
[06:13:19] <R2robot> like povray
[06:14:00] <LastTalon> And it would have realistic light interactions like for reflections and diffraction through transparent materials.
[06:14:13] <LastTalon> Which seemed really cool at the time to me.
[06:14:28] <LastTalon> Idk what sort of rendering options modern modeling software has.
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[06:17:06] <LastTalon> 3D modeling is just one of those things I'd never spend enough time doing to be good at.
[06:17:25] <R2robot> I *would* if I liked the tools.
[06:17:30] <LastTalon> Lol.
[06:17:33] <LastTalon> That might be part of it.
[06:17:38] <LastTalon> Its just not very interesting to me.
[06:17:46] <R2robot> I really like SketchUp though :D
[06:18:49] <dostoyevsky> Good thing that with RTX we can just upload .c4d files to the GPU instead of having to use a real graphics api
[06:19:48] <R2robot> well i'm not even doing 3d games yet, so I don't worry too much about it at this point.  Just tinker every now and then
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[08:02:29] <Donitzo> hmmm
[08:02:41] <Donitzo> I wonder if you could get caffeine into your blood without ever swallowing the coffee
[08:02:52] <Donitzo> these are the things I think about when drinking coffee
[08:19:49] <R2robot> IV drip
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[15:25:29] <dostoyevsky> Donitzo: there are coffee soap bars but not sure how effective that is
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[15:34:22] <Tylak> good morning gamedevers
[15:37:19] <dostoyevsky> good morning gameratorre
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[16:15:06] <solidfox> yes, to answer the question in the topic, i (want to) make games so that people can have fun while paying for my tea
[16:15:57] <solidfox> actually i would love to make an IRL pachinko place, but i think they're state run here
[16:34:32] <solidfox> i think im gonna play MGS2 today
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[16:43:36] <Madmallard> what technologies are people using for games nowadays? mmostly unity? what about browser games? are they a crapshoot or something? I saw some work on Phaser and a multiplayer game in phaser and there's like no traction or publicity for it it seems
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[16:53:01] <dostoyevsky> Madmallard: I like doing stuff in the browser..  with webgl
[16:53:56] <jprajzne> Madmallard: #bbg - browser-based games
[17:04:58] <solidfox> yes im developing webgl gacha in unity right now
[17:05:11] <Madmallard> i join bbg theres like 8 people in there
[17:05:22] <solidfox> (actually im just doing the unity tutorials)
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[17:18:51] <solidfox> Madmallard: yeah this channel is better. many nice people too who are encouraging
[17:20:06] <solidfox> damn, i need a bigger screen!
[17:20:13] <solidfox> like imac size
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[17:42:13] <dostoyevsky> Madmallard: Imho i find writing games in the browser easier than in unity...  Maybe because I have done a lot of things in the browser already
[17:43:08] <dostoyevsky> Also I am impressed with how fast JavaScript is these days...  it's not C or C++ sure but it's a lot faster than python or ruby
[17:43:15] <Madmallard> how bout making money off that though
[17:44:05] <dostoyevsky> Madmallard: If you use stripe/fastspring/paypal/braintree you can bill anything you want...
[18:02:10] <solidfox> my unity tutorial is stuck
[18:02:35] <solidfox> it says to drag the PushableBox prefab from projects to hierarchy view, i did so, and i can't proceed
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[18:05:03] <solidfox> what do i do :<
[18:05:22] <solidfox> im never gonna make games now and i'll die of dehydration from a lack of tea!!!!
[18:05:26] * solidfox cries
[18:06:47] <jprajzne> Madmallard: sorry, didn't notice it's nearly abandoned
[18:07:14] <jprajzne> browser is the next os :))
[18:07:48] <jprajzne> sort of pity that regular os doesn't provide such rich environment as browser does
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[18:07:54] <solidfox> they already have browser VMs if you have ever used vmware esxi
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[18:08:15] <jprajzne> didn't know, thanks solidfox
[18:08:23] <babuloseo> hi :3
[18:08:24] <solidfox> yes its pretty cool
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[18:11:53] <solidfox> well. i finished the tutorial with what i thought they wanted me to do, by closing the tutorial window
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[18:46:03] <Madmallard> anyone want to look at my rhythm game idea demo and let me know what they think? and possbily if they have any iddeas for improving the missiles (the white ones in particular)?
[18:46:08] <Madmallard> https://vimeo.com/309641946
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[19:28:44] <baudejogos> lufia 2 han han han
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[20:26:35] <solidfox> wonder if i should stop developing tetris-clone2 and start tetris-clone3 in unity
[20:42:04] <aeth> a-falling-shape-game-3. tetris is trademarked.
[20:42:42] <dexterfoo> Madmallard: cool video, but i couldn't quite understand what's going on
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[21:13:27] <Serpent7776> looks intense Madmallard
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[21:41:02] <solidfox> aeth: oh shit, i've been calling the project tetris-clone2 but the exe is just called game and the title screen says "amazing falling tetromino game"
[21:41:45] <solidfox> aeth: can i be sued
[21:41:47] <solidfox> im scared
[21:41:55] <solidfox> big-tetris is kowai (scary)
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[21:43:59] <solidfox> it doesnt save scores yet. thats the final thing, besides setting a faster speed for greater level, and switching colors accordingly
[21:45:02] <aeth> solidfox: Big Tetris is actually a thing, since the officially licensed Tetrises are usually less original, less fun, and less polished than many third party ones.
[21:45:51] <solidfox> aeth: wait, so i can be sued for making one that is different than the original? I was trying to make it as close to the original as i could, but intentionally changed a few things
[21:46:07] <solidfox> i thought making one that was a carbon copy would be bad
[21:46:10] <aeth> solidfox: it'st he name they complain about
[21:46:18] <aeth> s/it'st he/it's the/
[21:46:21] <solidfox> but React OS comes to mind
[21:46:33] <solidfox> aeth: ah i see, so i shouldnt call it tetris anywhere
[21:46:38] <solidfox> gotta nuke git brb
[21:46:52] <aeth> eh it probably won't matter to that extent
[21:47:17] <aeth> And it's probably not just the name. I'd use different height, width, and colors
[21:47:40] <solidfox> aeth: react os is windows 2003 built from the ground up, and open sourced
[21:47:52] <solidfox> aeth: they can get away with that because they are starting from scratch
[21:47:54] <aeth> yes, I'm referring to your first point
[21:48:12] <solidfox> yes well im confused
[21:48:16] <solidfox> i need a lawyer
[21:48:54] <aeth> Note, though, that with ReactOS it's not going to replace Windows and it's not a better product than Windows. Even you could probably make a better Tetris than some official Tetrises, so the Tetris Company (or whatever they're called) are probably more likely to sue similar games.
[21:49:10] <aeth> Even if they don't have an actual case, since all they need to do is cause large expenses.
[21:49:18] <solidfox> oh ok. someone suggested i make an instant drop feature. so maybe i wont do that
[21:49:26] <Buoy172> i think it seems to be much harder to get shit done now.
[21:49:41] <Buoy172> for good or bad.
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[21:51:05] <aeth> Buoy172: What's interesting is that it's actually easier to get things done because the answers to literally every issue you could be stuck on are out there somewhere on the Internet unless it's incredibly niche (like how to do something in a framework/engine that you yourself wrote)
[21:51:33] <aeth> Buoy172: But because an extremely large amount of 9s in 99.999...9% of the Internet is just trash designed to distract procrastinators, in practice it's harder to get stuff done
[21:52:04] <Buoy172> So, what kind of things generally get discussed in this channel?
[21:53:16] <solidfox> yes i get distracted a lot
[21:53:27] <solidfox> i have zero focus, unless im drinking quality pu erh tea
[21:53:42] <Serpent7776> I'd say React OS is not sued because it's not successful enough
[21:53:58] <solidfox> Serpent7776: maybe MS just never noticed it yet..
[21:54:17] <Serpent7776> yeah maybe, or just doesn't care (yet)
[21:54:28] <aeth> Yesterday, the topics were a new /topic and Sony not having microtransactions (apparently) and someone not knowing why an emulator has obscure consoles on it and Rust and developing for smartphones and xcom (reverse order scrolling up, gave up after about 10 hours worth of skimming)
[21:54:38] <solidfox> yes wait until they're raking in the big bucks, then sue. more likely to actually get paid that way
[21:54:53] <Serpent7776> exactly
[21:55:04] <Buoy172> Sure, I'm all into that. I've recently started helping people on the gamedev subreddit.
[21:58:30] <Buoy172> what's the coolest gaming company?
[21:59:59] <solidfox> maybe valve right?
[22:00:41] <solidfox> my favorites games were made by konami but i dont really like the company itself
[22:01:01] <R2robot> Blizzard
[22:01:26] <Serpent7776> ma fav games are made by indie devs prob
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[22:03:11] <Buoy172> I guess I'll go with Blizzard too cause I play a lot of starcraft
[22:04:54] <solidfox> damn i just wanna make a tetris clone, what does tetris compant want from me!!!!!
[22:05:34] <R2robot> move to china and steal all IP without remorse!
[22:12:06] <aeth> solidfox: they probably won't notice your clone
[22:12:15] <aeth> especially if you don't try to sell it
[22:12:21] <Donitzo> considering the number of tetris clone
[22:12:28] <Buoy172> and don't advertise on it
[22:12:32] <Donitzo> I've made a small tetris game a long time ago
[22:12:40] <Donitzo> just using ascii graphics
[22:13:01] <aeth> was it a roguelike tetris?
[22:13:05] <Donitzo> didn't even realise the idea itself was... wha
[22:13:06] <Donitzo> t
[22:13:08] <Donitzo> patented?
[22:13:22] <R2robot> You're more likely to get a C&D than get sued.
[22:13:33] <aeth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tetris_Company#Legal_enforcement
[22:13:34] <Donitzo> how can it not be public domain by name
[22:13:41] <Donitzo> by now*
[22:14:27] <Donitzo> ah
[22:14:35] <Donitzo> so they were on shaky legal ground to start with
[22:15:37] <aeth> the tl;dr is that they are basically the most lawyer-happy game company (probably because any beginner starts by cloning their IP) and it doesn't matter if they're wrong they will sue you anyway and they have money and you don't
[22:16:33] <R2robot> kinda like King with 'candy'
[22:16:54] <aeth> most of their legal focus seems to be on mobile, though
[22:17:02] <aeth> (for both companies)
[22:17:04] <Donitzo> because that's where a lot of money is
[22:17:32] <R2robot> https://www.recode.net/2014/2/25/11623932/king-drops-candy-trademark-battle-in-u-s-other-trademarks-unaffected
[22:17:38] <aeth> It's also because some beginner project that's not done for the money is going to be more fun than theirs, which is probably full of mobile slow-to-a-crawl-unless-you-pay anti-features
[22:18:02] <solidfox> yes my game will be free to play forever
[22:18:13] <solidfox> but if you want to pay to win that will be acceptable
[22:18:20] <R2robot> making it free doesn't remove liability
[22:18:42] <aeth> I should make a game where you can pay $5 to win the game. That's it. Literal pay to win. Get to the end credits with $5. Maybe get the 'you win' achievement that way, too.
[22:19:15] <R2robot> aeth: kinda reminds me of a game i have on steam
[22:19:32] <solidfox> $1 for a score of 1000, then $2 for 2000, $8 for 3000, $16 for 4000
[22:19:32] <aeth> of course, there would be a 'win the game on normal difficulty or higher' achievement that you would not get if you paid to win.
[22:19:40] <R2robot> but you've already bought the game.. but you make decisions and can pretty much end the game right from the start. lol
[22:19:47] <solidfox> R2robot: it will be on github
[22:20:07] <aeth> solidfox: that's not how it works. It's ~$20~ $16 SALE for 4000 (best value)
[22:20:10] <solidfox> build it yourself, not apple store or anything
[22:20:11] <R2robot> solidfox: doesn't change anything if you use something that is trademark'd
[22:20:16] <solidfox> aeth: heh
[22:20:46] <R2robot> github has taken down repos that have received DMCA requests for
[22:20:50] <aeth> solidfox: and what's great is by your system $8 + $8 gives 3000 + 3000 = 6000 > 4000 so... it's not the best value.
[22:21:11] <solidfox> aeth: no that is total score, not additional score
[22:21:30] <aeth> solidfox: nah, it's better if it just adds to your score because then there's no limit to how much someone can pay to top the leaderboard.
[22:21:37] <aeth> payment with limits is so 2009
[22:21:40] <Donitzo> oh no, a leaderboard
[22:21:42] <solidfox> heh yeah you're right
[22:21:45] <Donitzo> better be GDPR compliant
[22:21:56] <solidfox> yes. im gonna need to increase my score from int to long long long
[22:22:07] <Donitzo> just use a string
[22:22:08] <aeth> this is a valid excuse to use a bignum
[22:22:17] <aeth> (if C then something like GMP)
[22:22:19] <solidfox> bignum?
[22:22:27] <aeth> bignum is an arbitrary-length integer
[22:22:32] <aeth> If you can allocate it you can have it
[22:22:43] <aeth> It takes the name from Java, which iirc has Bignum
[22:22:45] <Donitzo> That's what she said
[22:22:48] <solidfox> ah. like a 1gb sized score if someone wants to pay for it
[22:23:06] <rindolf> solidfox: heh
[22:23:08] <Donitzo> You'd have to get a score of Pi or something for that
[22:23:14] <aeth> solidfox: well you'd turn it into a string at the end
[22:23:15] <Donitzo> some type of really random number
[22:23:45] <aeth> solidfox: you'd only need the bignum representation until the game is over, then you can just stringify it, well, I guess, depending on how determining ranking in the leaderboard works
[22:24:00] <aeth> assuming integers 1 GB sized score is... hard to get to
[22:24:06] <solidfox> aeth: i saw a system on a game i played recently (think i told you about it), they go 1 - 100,000 then 1A - 100,000A then 1B - 100,000B
[22:24:54] <aeth> you get 18446744073709551615 or 2^64 - 1 even without bignums.... would take a while to require 1 GB
[22:25:24] <solidfox> woah that was really close to my dads phone number
[22:25:25] <aeth> Most games that work with very large numbers probably use double, which give you like 10^300 easily but at the bigger ranges x + 1 == x
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[22:26:38] <aeth> If you're using C or C++ you can use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Multiple_Precision_Arithmetic_Library
[22:26:54] <aeth> Many languages, like Java and Python, have this sort of thing built in, maybe using GMP, maybe not
[22:29:35] <aeth> The only two disadvantages are (1) it's slower and (2) it can potentially take as much memory as you have (instead of being fixed in size)
[22:32:50] <aeth> For simple incrementing, you can probably implement your own at a fixed size that represents something larger than 2^64 and you basically just need to implement the increment function and the print function. Don't expect to be able to beat GMP in performance for general cases, though.
[22:33:06] <aeth> You'd just have an array of 4 64-bit integers or something
[22:34:09] <aeth> I'd recommend using exact numbers for anything that someone can pay to increment, since their increment may have absolutely no effect at all with a very large double. :-)
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[22:37:21] <aeth> The 1 - 100,000 then 1A - 100,000A etc. method seems like a very lazy and not-power-of-two equivalent to my four array way, in a sense. Except it's printing your index instead of actually determining your total, summed number.
[22:38:00] <aeth> (well, not your index, it's printing how many times you overflowed)
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[23:07:51] <LunarJetman> my ECS now renders text! \o/ https://i.imgur.com/T19lL78.png
[23:12:52] <solidfox> nice i love text
[23:13:42] <LunarJetman> In that screenshot the text being rendered by the ECS is "Two Pair Win 2!"
[23:14:04] <LunarJetman> the other text is owned by widgets
[23:14:38] <solidfox> ecs?
[23:14:50] <LunarJetman> Entity-component-system
[23:15:16] <solidfox> oh ok is that like entities in unity or minecraft?
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[23:15:41] <LunarJetman> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity%E2%80%93component%E2%80%93system
[23:17:10] <LunarJetman> the ECS lets me give the text a velocity so it animates off the screen
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[23:24:57] <solidfox> yes unity says "hierarchy" i think thats where the entitys go. then you can add components to the entity to define how it behaves. so generic
[23:26:16] <shake> well, technically the systems define the behavior and components are just data storage
[23:26:53] <babuloseo> anyone with rx 480 or amd gpus
[23:26:59] <babuloseo> can you tell me how to look at GPU usage
[23:26:59] <shake> It's a bit of a formalized data-oriented-design approach if I understood correctly
[23:27:01] <babuloseo> in linux?
[23:27:08] <babuloseo> using mesa driver >.>
[23:28:04] <brainzap> yes m lord
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   January 5, 2019  
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