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   January 5, 2019
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[00:14:16] <symm-> msvc has _penter and _pexit
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[00:15:33] <ville> yeah they insert noop instructions that can be patched over
[00:16:17] <virmaha> hello. I create a .so file which dynamically links to libstdc++.so.20. However, on client system, there's only libstdc++.so.19. How can I make my code link to so19 version?
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[00:21:32] <shake> virmaha: the only solution I know of involves you needing to use the correct GCC toolchain version, i.e. an older g++ in your case.
[00:22:37] <virmaha> shake: hmm that's difficult. Other option i can think of is statically link libstdc++
[00:22:52] <virmaha> shake: another option is ship my libstdc++.so.6.20 and do ld_library_path magic
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[00:24:28] <shake> Oh sure you could always do that. But I don't think you can tell GCC which version to link to (and even if you could you'd probably break things).
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[00:40:49] <veverak> so
[00:40:54] <veverak> what do you use for doc
[00:41:07] <veverak> and if you use 'doxygen' do you have alternative for the default theme? :)
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[04:11:04] <fattest> Hi all, with Boost Graph, how do I run bellman ford on my labelled graph? https://wandbox.org/permlink/zz4N4MOAEgdk9HoP I'm getting "invalid conversion from ‘void*’ to ‘int’" to int error. Any ideas?
[04:11:09] <fattest> https://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_68_0/libs/graph/example/bellman-example.cpp
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[09:29:27] <ViralTaco> hi
[09:29:33] <ViralTaco> anyone woke?
[09:29:39] <ViralTaco> I need halp
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[09:31:26] <s_frit> i'm awake, not sure about woke, or if i can halp
[09:32:04] <s_frit> ViralTaco ^
[09:32:22] <ViralTaco> How can I use the `using` keyword to alias `std::chrono::duration_cast`?
[09:32:28] <ViralTaco> because typing std::chrono::duration_cast<std::chrono::nanoseconds>(ns); is quickly getting old
[09:32:52] <ViralTaco> Also I don't want to use a preprocessor macro but I'm about to
[09:33:19] <s_frit> you can use an alias template. but is std::chrono::nanoseconds a type or a value?
[09:33:22] <ViralTaco> It's just for one function, I'll undef it I promise.
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[09:33:39] <ViralTaco> that's a type
[09:33:43] <ViralTaco> I'm confused
[09:34:08] <ViralTaco> the chrono library is really taking a piss
[09:34:20] <s_frit> oh. duration_cast is a function?
[09:34:27] <ViralTaco> is it?
[09:34:31] <s_frit> not sure
[09:35:01] <s_frit> https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/chrono/duration/duration_cast
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[09:35:09] <s_frit> looks like it
[09:35:14] <s_frit> hmm.
[09:35:27] <s_frit> using std::chrono::duration_cast;
[09:35:30] <s_frit> does that work?
[09:36:16] <ViralTaco> no it doesn't cause it's templated
[09:36:52] <ViralTaco> I can template using, right? oh fuck it I'll try stuff, hopefully won't have to resort to a macro
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[09:37:17] <s_frit> what is your goal, to make a shorthand for duration_cast, or for duration_cast<std::chrono::nanoseconds> ?
[09:37:36] <s_frit> yes you can template using, for types. not sure about for functions
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[10:02:56] <amosbird> hmm, is it possible to add another static_for variant that returns void? https://la.wentropy.com/Xehi
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[11:05:59] <cbreak> amosbird: what for?
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[11:09:59] <amosbird> cbreak: for accepting functions returning void
[11:10:11] <cbreak> and how do you want to chain them?
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[11:10:26] <cbreak> you can obviously not use ||
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[11:16:48] <amosbird> well, to make functions that returning void a false type
[11:17:00] <Boobie> void_reduce((func(std::get<Is>(tuple)), 0)...);
[11:17:02] <Boobie> template <class ...Y> fn void_reduce(Y&& ...) purefn -> void {}
[11:17:32] <amosbird> Boobie: what's this
[11:17:50] <amosbird> looks fancy
[11:17:53] <cbreak> so just put in an other fn that does that?
[11:18:30] <cbreak> at the moment you call f
[11:18:40] <amosbird> Boobie: what's the "purefn"?
[11:18:40] <cbreak> so you require f to return a boolean or similar
[11:19:42] <cbreak> but if you wrap f in an other function, or an expression to always return false, ...
[11:20:02] <cbreak> you will lose the ability for your f to stop the iteration though
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[11:26:23] <amosbird> yeah, wrapper works https://la.wentropy.com/cQsl
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[11:40:55] <Ingersol> Concurrency in action got second publishing
[11:40:57] <Ingersol> https://www.manning.com/books/c-plus-plus-concurrency-in-action-second-edition
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[11:59:05] <coutille_> Huh, for me it's still MEAP
[11:59:16] <s_frit> Ingersol: have you read the first edition? (I haven't) would you recommend it?
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[12:16:42] <voltagex> in VS2017, what causes "unresolved external symbol"?
[12:18:05] <Stryyker> not linking something needed or use doesn't match a declaration
[12:18:50] <s_frit> voltagex: depends, is is it a symbol that you thought that you defined? or a library symbol?
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[12:19:34] <s_frit> it can be as simple as you failed to provide a definition for a function that you declared in a header file
[12:21:47] <voltagex> s_frit: a whole stack of Boost symbols, despite having everything installed via vcpkg
[12:22:09] <TinoDidriksen> Installed is not the same as linking it.
[12:22:16] <TinoDidriksen> #include doesn't link the library.
[12:22:55] <voltagex> sorry - all dependencies are installed via vcpkg which has some cmake integration. This isn't my project, my only interest is in compiling and debugging it for now.
[12:23:15] <voltagex> every other dependency is working (e.g. qt5)
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[12:27:13] <s_frit> voltagex: and the vcproj is built by cmake?
[12:27:36] <voltagex> no vcproj (that I have access to), using the new cmake support.
[12:27:42] <s_frit> right
[12:28:16] <s_frit> well you need to be linking against whatever boost .lib file contains those symbols
[12:29:23] <voltagex> I'm not sure what is and is not being linked, I'll check what vcpkg actually installed.
[12:30:22] <s_frit> from where i'm standing it could be: some cmake+msvc combo issue or your CMakeLists.txt is not set up correctly
[12:30:42] <s_frit> if it's compiling, presumably vcpkg installed the headers that you need
[12:31:02] <s_frit> would be surprising if it didn't also install any needed libs
[12:31:15] <voltagex> "Package boost-asio:x64-windows is already installed" - this is one in particular that's failing. I'll see if generating a proper vcproj helps.
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[12:39:30] <Ingersol> voltagex, which symbol is unresolved?
[12:39:46] <Ingersol> ah nvm
[12:39:51] <Ingersol> found in the logs.
[12:40:48] <Ingersol> if your boost compiled statically, try to add set(Boost_USE_STATIC_LIBS ON) in the CMakeLists.txt
[12:42:00] <Ingersol> (before find_package(Boost ...))
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[12:44:08] <voltagex> Ingersol: I think that's already set, and I have both static and dynamic boost available
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[12:46:44] <voltagex> nope, generating a sln makes it even worse, back to VS2017's cmake thing
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[12:53:02] <voltagex> Ingersol: build log - https://pastebin.com/9EtUvWJP
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[15:22:02] <Aleric> I hate projects that don't even compile for a few weeks :(
[15:23:07] <quarterback> I once worked on C/C++ a project which took nearly 40 minutes to compile
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[15:25:09] <cbreak> I compiled Qt a few times too :) took ages on windows
[15:25:15] <quarterback> nowadays, my C++ code compiles within two or three minutes as its usually under 30k lines.
[15:26:49] <quarterback> cbreak, Is video code very large?
[15:27:27] <quarterback> something like video sofware which lets you play videos on your phone for video files or for streaming.
[15:27:37] <cbreak> no?
[15:27:42] <cbreak> you'd just use a library for that
[15:27:49] <cbreak> especially on a phone
[15:27:52] <quarterback> a library like ffmpeg?
[15:28:00] <cbreak> maybe...
[15:28:15] <cbreak> but on a phone you'd use a video player component thingie
[15:28:20] <cbreak> and let it deal with everything
[15:28:28] <cbreak> accelerated decoding, playback, rendering
[15:29:35] <quarterback> Most of the rendering is doind with a GPU accelerator onboard
[15:29:46] <quarterback> Most of the rendering is done with a GPU accelerator onboard*
[15:32:39] <quarterback> cbreak, its either OPENGL ES or Vulkan
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[15:35:22] <shake> You forgot Metal. But as cbreak pointed out, it is very crucial to also use accelerated decoding, i.e. hardware for decoding h264/h265, etc. because if you do it in software the playback either stutters and/or the phone dies in like 10min because of excessive heat and low battery
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[15:36:57] <hero100> it would be fine with h264 under 1080p
[15:37:22] <quarterback> shake, My smartphone gives about 4-5 hours of live tv video streaming
[15:37:24] <haps> but people need 4k on their phones. this is a well-known fact.
[15:38:04] <shake> And FFmpeg offers little help in specialized decoders as found in embedded OSes, plus the transport from the decoder to the GPU is also an issue with this one-size-fits-all stuff.
[15:39:01] <quarterback> haps, 4k on phone is insane. On a 5" small screen low resolution video would be fine.
[15:39:02] <shake> hero100: it'd still be a lot happier if it could just use the hardware for it :)
[15:39:15] <hero100> shake: totally true
[15:39:30] <haps> quarterback: sorry, I forgot the <sarcasm> tags.
[15:39:41] <quarterback> shake, ffmpeg is old technology from 2000.
[15:40:02] <haps> oh no, that's what I use.
[15:40:28] <shake> That's what a lot of people use, including me. What's the 'new' technology then?
[15:40:28] <haps> what's the current replacement for cmdline transcoding?
[15:41:18] <hero100> libav. i'm kiding
[15:42:41] * haps was honestly just teeing up a build of ffmpeg on my work box, what should I use instead?
[15:43:08] <quarterback> shake, Vulkan, opengl ES?
[15:43:24] <shake> quarterback: You confuse two different things
[15:43:32] <haps> hmmm.
[15:43:36] * haps resumes the build.
[15:43:39] <shake> Vulkan, OpenGL|ES, etc. are for rendering
[15:43:42] <haps> av1 looks very promising
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[15:44:25] <shake> FFmpeg (de-)muxes and en-/decodes media streams with a wide variety of container formats and codec types
[15:45:13] <shake> In fact ffmpeg even comes with the ffplay utility which uses OpenGL for rendering decoded videos
[15:45:43] <hero100> i think ffplay use SDL, not opengl directly
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[15:46:38] <blackpawn> good morning
[15:47:00] <cbreak> quarterback: you'd get maybe an hour or two at most if you'd use ffmpeg with cpu decoding :)
[15:47:06] <shake> hero100: Last time I looked they even had a shader in there that was doing the YUV->RGB conversion because swscale isn't exactly optimal ;)
[15:47:31] <haps> cbreak: that's why you transcode on something that's plugged in to a wall socked :-)
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[15:47:47] <quarterback> cbreak, Sure
[15:47:57] <cbreak> I use my phone for phoning stuff
[15:48:45] <haps> or that
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[15:51:58] <hero100> shake: it's the shader in SDL library, different project
[15:53:45] <shake> Ahh, alright. I never bothered to actually take a closer look tbh
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[16:04:01] <quarterback> shake, What is the effort estimate in weeks/months for somebody with C/C++ skills to get into ffmpeg, open GL ES or Vulkan?
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[16:06:29] <Ingersol> quarterback, if you have interesting idea, it will be pleasure for you to play with necessary stuff
[16:07:06] <quarterback> Ingersol, ofcourse, I also mean serious business with one of those technologies.
[16:07:13] <cbreak> quarterback: ffmpeg is a mess
[16:07:19] <cbreak> vulkan is super low level
[16:07:25] <cbreak> OpenGL ES is weird
[16:07:38] <cbreak> they all do different things
[16:08:01] <quarterback> Ingersol, Lot of C++ developers would be intersted in doing some project to work with C++ skills.
[16:08:16] <quarterback> interested*
[16:08:56] <hero100> quarterback: FFmpeg is 100 percent pure C
[16:09:08] <shake> Yeah the FFmpeg API is pretty fucked but there are lots of examples. Having FFmpeg decode to an AVFrame is relatively easy (assuming simple videos, no seeking, audio/video sync, etc. etc.)
[16:10:06] <shake> But its not just the APIs, you also need to have a good understanding of graphics, maths, etc. to actually get it to render properly.
[16:10:13] <quarterback> hero100 openGL is C++?
[16:10:43] <shake> I am currently struggling a lot to get a good grip of Vulkan.. and I have done OpenGL for more than 10 years
[16:11:01] <shake> OpenGL is plain C, as is Vulkan
[16:11:48] <quarterback> shake, Maybe you need time, how big is the codebase in vulkan?
[16:12:04] <shake> But if you are interested in this sort of thing you could actually really take a look at ffplay and use SDL's little helpers at first
[16:12:12] <ville> what kind of opengl you did is probably more relevant
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[16:12:27] <quarterback> shake, If everything is modular with components, it should be easy to grasp chunks of it and over time the whole thing.
[16:12:50] <shake> ville: Well, I have shifted to 3.3 core as soon as it was available on my main dev platform back then (MacOS X)
[16:13:02] <cbreak> quarterback: don't blabber nonsense please
[16:13:09] <cbreak> have you even looked at the Vulkan API?
[16:13:27] <quarterback> cbreak, if its modular, somebody with math skills can grasp it. Its not nonsense.
[16:13:34] <cbreak> it is utter nonsense
[16:13:54] <ville> shake: 3.3 is fairly non-vulkan-y. you need 4.x and bunch of extensions for the stateless stuff
[16:14:14] <cbreak> you need to know several dozen functions with multi-level parameter structs to do anything
[16:14:51] <ville> to got a polygon on the screen you have had to written, and gotten right, ~500 lines of code in vulkan
[16:14:54] <shake> ville: Yeah, I have fiddled with 4.5 draw multi indirect etc. but its still a lot easier because they hide so much of the "weird" internals.
[16:14:55] <ville> get
[16:14:55] <quarterback> shake, I honestly don't know what skills are required for vulkan or OpenGL.
[16:17:42] <ville> i still wouldn't call vulkan super-low-evel. it has bunch of abstractions rather than just giving means to grab memory and control hardware directly.
[16:18:52] <shake> ville: I agree. I think it's a good (but thin) abstraction. It's just so much to grasp and it can be frustrating, even with all the validation layers enabled to stare at utter blackness
[16:19:38] <shake> I had some toy project that rendered fine on my integrated Haswell GPU. But nothing showed up on the nVidia :(
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[16:23:00] <quarterback> shake, Are you programming in vulkan as a hobby?
[16:23:03] <shake> Anyway, I am not a guy who gives up easily - Vulkan(-like) APIs are here to stay. It's just a matter of finding the time and energy to get into it
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[16:25:10] <shake> quarterback: I am the lead on an inhouse OpenGL-based rendering engine. Its currently mainly used on Linux systems but it was designed to also run on macOS. Since OpenGL is soon gone from macOS it is kind of required to consider the alternatives. Metal or MoltenVK (which I prefer because maintaining two or more APIs is a no-go with the few people we have working on it)
[16:28:24] <quarterback> shake, I had been getting some offers for Video C++ development. Its been a while I did something on video and that was only for university.Its a totally new field to me.
[16:28:52] <ville> shake: oh yeah it's a big up-front investment before you get anything on screen. fairly stark contrast to opengl especially opengl with glBegin/glEnd style. i am not entirely convinced whether vulkan actually hit the right spot or not, and honestly don't think i am right person to be making that call either
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[16:29:54] <ville> shake: from rumblings around the net it may have missed the mark by still putting some unnecessary/unwanted abstractions in
[16:30:14] <quarterback> shake, It can get interesting if a developer is into challenges and can put imagination at work.
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[16:31:03] <shake> ville: Me neither :( I have neither worked a lot with Metal nor DirectX12. If I had the time I'd probably try to be well-informed about all of them.
[16:31:24] <shake> I think the windows graphics I did was D3D9
[16:32:31] <shake> ville: Well, there is V-EZ from AMD but I first like to know the underlying tech good enough to make an informed decision, I guess
[16:33:31] <shake> quarterback: A lot of the challenges involve trying to figure out why something stutters when it shouldn't. And this is often very vendor-specific, so it can also be very frustrating
[16:35:17] <hero100> quarterback: there are some projects like vlc, mpv, kodi/xbmc, ijkplayer and so on.
[16:35:19] <ville> shake: amd's offering is kind of going into the "wrong" direction. some people would have wanted to see a more low-level approach. where vulkan would have only few functiond to allocating/freeing/reading/writing memory and the memory formats would then be documented. and it would be upto the application side to massage their data into those formats.
[16:36:30] <quarterback> shake, Don't you have software requirements from your customer which sets a few rules about how the software should function without lag/stuttering etc giving a timing in milliseconds or microseconds?
[16:41:21] <shake> ville: I bet those guys are used to PlayStation/XBox-like "APIs". But yes, basically all you do is shifting some formatted memory around all the time. There is already a lot of negotiating formats, etc. but I think these abstractions allow for the layers which in turn allow you to test against the spec, which is a good thing IMHO. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they would make something similar
[16:41:27] <shake> in 10years or so (probably a tooling/codegen issue at the moment). Like people are implementing GL ontop of Vulkan, they could implement Vulkan on top of this. That would be neat
[16:43:38] <cbreak> there's vulkan on top of metal
[16:43:40] <shake> quarterback: Oh the customer wants it to not stutter, clearly. So yes, perfect scenario is 0% lag, 10000fps, 0% CPU/GPU/memory usage but this is unrealistic. A lot of things are out of your hands, i.e. implementation-/vendor-specific.
[16:43:45] <cbreak> vulkan on top of direct x
[16:43:52] <cbreak> and I think also direct x on top of vulkan
[16:44:08] <shake> It's a zoo at the moment
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[16:44:44] <shake> I really don't like vendor-lock-in APIs sooo that's why I go the Vulkan way
[16:44:49] <quarterback> shake, Your place a zoo?
[16:45:22] <shake> Especially since they announced that portability initiative.. so yep, there MoltenVK and who knows what else :P
[16:45:53] <shake> The graphics API landscape is a zoo at the moment. The only thing everybody seems to agree on is that low-level is better.
[16:46:15] <cbreak> faster
[16:46:52] <shake> not only that, it has less surprises of magic stuff going on in the background
[16:46:57] <shake> but yes, I guess it boils down to faster :)
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[17:38:05] <ville> shake: pretty spot on with the people guess. and i gotta be honest that kind of api sounds kind of nice.
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[17:41:42] <cbreak> I prefer function parameters
[17:41:56] <cbreak> than to have to pass two or three levels deep of config struct with crappy names instead
[17:42:15] <cbreak> part of that is probably C Legacy since that language can't do it properly
[17:42:28] <cbreak> (it being overloading)
[17:46:07] <ville> at some N it starts to make sense to start packaging flat function parameter list into separate classes
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[17:49:04] <ville> especially if you can have sane defaults for things. then you've no limitations which order the parameters are
[17:50:56] <shake> and you can extend the structs - either ABI-compat with pNext-like chaining as in Vulkan or you don't care about ABI-compatibility
[17:51:31] <shake> I actually use structs for arguments a lot
[17:53:01] <shake> ville: I bet it is extremely easy to freeze up your system with super low-level 'fill-in-the-bytes-correctly' APIs
[17:53:53] <ville> you can still do validation on such things if you wish
[17:54:50] <shake> nah.. I love the smell of danger ;)
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[18:24:21] <cbreak> ville: there are no defaults
[18:24:26] <cbreak> since it's a C API
[18:24:36] <cbreak> and you have to put in pointers to other structs (sometimes)
[18:24:47] <cbreak> and you have to set struct version fields
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[18:25:28] <cbreak> that way, functions can do different things
[18:25:39] <cbreak> depending on which struct / struct version / struct combination they are passed
[18:26:50] <ville> cbreak: even in a c api you can do defaults. just have a function that fills them in. now the official vulkan c bindings don't do this
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[20:07:09] <Unarelith> what is better with a std::string as key, std::map or std::unordered_map?
[20:07:25] <cbreak> depends on what you want
[20:08:09] <cbreak> guaranteed order and O(log(n)) access, or unpredictable order, linear worst case access and O(1) expected access?
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[20:18:33] <Svitkona> better in what sense?
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[23:05:22] <ville> why do we still have to write operator == that just calls operator == recursively on the members...
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[23:07:12] <ville> 20 years in and still doing this kind of mindless typing...
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[23:10:30] <shake> even worse is that you sometimes need to define != < <= etc etc..
[23:10:40] <ville> writing l.x == r.y for 50 different measured values just is..
[23:11:23] <shake> maybe a combination of spaceship operator, metaclasses and static reflection will be the salvation.. but honestly I have no idea how much more complicated that is in comparison to just doing the monkey typing
[23:11:25] <ville> at least you can derive lot of those once you accept value semantics for your type for example, but you at least have to iterate over things once... and by iterate i mean some silly error-prone
[23:11:45] <ville> spaceship and metaclasses are strictly weaker than static reflection
[23:12:10] <ville> the only thing that really really matters is static reflection
[23:13:00] <shake> You are preaching to the choir :)
[23:14:17] <ville> fair enough, it's not always clear what people think/understand/can project a feature would be. and who can blame them, the language is fairly complex so predicting what something means is difficult... something about template metaprogramming
[23:15:25] <ville> i tried convincing that guy with unpronouncable name, which reminds me i need to set some new ban masks, about how static reflection is strictly better than meta classes
[23:15:27] <shake> Well I have had my share of custom reflection code and it has always been a pain.
[23:15:48] <ville> in the end i couldn't do it on irc, because apparently "sutter sells his proposal better"
[23:16:13] <ville> nevermind that irc vs live or video conference talks is already kinf of uneven battlefielf
[23:16:16] <ville> field
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[23:16:44] <shake> Well, I guess the reflection proposal doesn't have as strong an advocate.
[23:17:07] <ville> i am sure sutter and everyone else understands the importance. even his meta classes relies on it
[23:17:19] <shake> I like Sutter a lot and his ideas are pretty good, imho. But I have been on that reflection list since they announced it.
[23:17:49] <ville> i guess you could just make meta classes "public" and never make the tech it relies "public"
[23:18:00] <shake> And it's kind of sad how so many different areas are being pursued and none of them seem to get the attention they require.
[23:18:00] <ville> that's kind of the worst case scenario i can envision
[23:18:37] <shake> Oh, you mean like information politics?
[23:18:49] <ville> public as in part of the standard
[23:19:30] <ville> every compiler would implement all the mechanics that would be required for meta classes in their own way, which is tantamount to static reflection, but the mechanisms wouldn't be made part of the standard
[23:19:45] <ville> so everything wrt static reflection would be a compiler intrinsic or so
[23:19:52] <shake> aah, now I get what you mean
[23:20:30] <shake> That would be indeed pretty stupid but possible given the amount of work it requires to get something standardized
[23:20:45] <shake> Just look at modules. Or concepts :P
[23:21:35] <ville> i look at modules and shake my head. that's bit different. they are not really solving anything for me. sort of kind of same for concepts when they removed concept maps
[23:22:29] <ville> sure it's lot of work, just not very interested in the result
[23:22:31] <shake> Well I am not really looking forward to concepts a lot, I can deal with unclear error messages. For modules my hope is that compile times will improve a lot. If not, I don't need those either
[23:23:02] <ville> i've looked at some published benchmarks and the improvements don't seem that stellar.
[23:23:17] <ville> we probably will get more compile time improvements from static reflection
[23:23:55] <shake> Oh you really think so? I kind of fear that using it will drastically increase compile times
[23:24:11] <ville> hold on...
[23:24:12] <shake> Like, doing tmp magic all over the place
[23:27:06] <ville> so i guess it kind of depends how you use templates right now and how you implement the things you use them for
[23:28:04] <ville> if you're using them for reflection kind of things, and you implement them using mechanisms that instantiates types mostly then you're kind of using the worst kind of possible thing, as far as i understand
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[23:29:00] <shake> You are probably right about that. It really slows everything down because you have so many possible permutations
[23:29:18] <ville> instantiating new types is very bad case for lot of the current compilers right now, because they have to remember all the types for all eternity and any overloads and so on
[23:29:28] <shake> I wrote that "type-safe" JavaScript binding which would reflect very complicated setups back-and-fro JavaScript and its horribly slow to compile
[23:30:07] <ville> where as if you can implement your mechanism through something like alias template then it's faster to compile
[23:30:09] <shake> So my hope would be that reflection kind of eliminates all that stuff
[23:30:52] <shake> I often felt the need to (partially) specialize for various types and that's probably as bad as it can get
[23:31:20] <ville> yes, there's where my "claim" that static reflection will actually speed up things comes from, if it's specifically tailored feature then it's likely it has its own "look up tables" and so on
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[23:32:02] <ville> just cause every type you instantiate will burden the compiler's "table" for types, then lookups on it will eventually go to hell
[23:32:13] <ville> even if it's a hash table or some such
[23:32:30] <LunarJetman> nonsense.
[23:32:36] <shake> Let's just hope they don't just stick type_traits'y glue into the stdlib.. again probably using some compiler-internal intrinsics to achieve this
[23:34:08] <ville> LunarJetman: you can go look at what are the most costly template related things you can do on compilers. either make your own tests or accept the current knowledge
[23:34:43] <LunarJetman> I am not interested in compilers with low QoI.
[23:34:43] <ville> LunarJetman: i am going to say instantiating types is one of those expensive ones, there are lighter template-related constructs
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[23:34:59] <ville> this is main-stream compilers
[23:35:06] <LunarJetman> I am not interested in main-stream compilers with low QoI.
[23:35:50] <ville> it would then probably be simpler if you just came out and said the exact compilers and versions then
[23:36:20] <shake> Yes I am interested aswell.
[23:36:50] <LunarJetman> just because all the compilers you have used have shitty implementations it doesn't mean it has to be that way
[23:36:59] <shake> I would concur that template instantiations and all the recurring codegen per TU are a big issue
[23:37:11] <ville> LunarJetman: ok this is starting to be all too familiar pattern
[23:37:59] <LunarJetman> indeed. the pattern is you being an egregious cunt.
[23:38:17] <shake> eh.. is he?
[23:38:40] <ville> i believe that is a given. just for once answer the question. give the compiler name and version where instantiating types is not a costly operation down the line
[23:38:47] <shake> I can only see one guy rumbling into a conversation with the line "nonsense", then claiming all existing C++ compilers are rubbish
[23:39:08] <LunarJetman> ville: did I say there are compilers with a good QoI in this area? no.
[23:40:11] <ville> LunarJetman: you didn't. but you could have stated it right away that you're talking about a compiler that doesn't exist
[23:40:28] <ville> LunarJetman: QoI kind of implies that there is an I
[23:40:28] <LunarJetman> there is no reason that it couldn't exist.
[23:40:50] <LunarJetman> the fact that is doesn't is irrelevent. this is not an intractable problem
[23:40:54] <LunarJetman> it*
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[23:42:23] <ville> LunarJetman: perhaps next time you feel like commenting come up with a more detailed comment than "bullshit". with out further details it has to be presumed that everything stated before is bullshit
[23:42:45] <shake> well, ville actually said "bad case for a lot of the current compilers right now"
[23:42:49] <LunarJetman> I call it random assertions that are little more than guesses.
[23:42:54] <LunarJetman> s/it/out/
[23:43:12] <shake> I don't see that there is an implication of the impossible
[23:43:25] <ville> i believe my assertion is in line with the current knowledge of the current compilers
[23:43:36] <LunarJetman> another random assertion
[23:44:03] <LunarJetman> back it up with proof
[23:44:05] <LunarJetman> otherwise I dismiss it
[23:44:11] <ville> you are free to do so
[23:44:19] <LunarJetman> I know
[23:45:22] <ville> the shortest path i can give you is oden holmes' presentations
[23:45:39] <ville> odin
[23:47:01] <LunarJetman> who is odin holmes?
[23:49:58] <ville> he is someone who apparently likes to play with templates
[23:50:09] <LunarJetman> dunno sounds like an appeal to authority: logical fallacy mate.
[23:51:11] <shake> You are free to contribute your own constructive thoughts and presentations
[23:53:03] <ville> oh no he used a sentence that ended in "mate" now he is serious... that aside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLr6_ERNiQY&index=3 seems to be his latest representation. part 1 of 2
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[23:54:40] <LunarJetman> I guess you don't understand the concept of a logical fallacy.
[23:54:57] <shake> Well... I am gonna drop out here. This thing went from an interesting conversation to a hormone therapy. Thanks for the convo, ville
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   January 5, 2019
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