August 8, 2012 
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August 8, 2012 NOTICE: This channel is no longer actively logged.
[00:00:43] *** thebishop has quit IRC[00:37:22] *** victrola` has quit IRC[00:38:09] *** victrola` has joined #bittorrent[01:21:40] *** victrola` has quit IRC[01:22:19] *** victrola` has joined #bittorrent[01:23:53] *** victrola` has quit IRC[01:24:10] *** victrola` has joined #bittorrent[02:19:03] *** The_8472 has quit IRC[02:28:08] <K`Tetch> the book I co-wrote is techdirt's book of the month for August http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120807/00073319950/join-us-thursday-conversation-with-rob-reid-author-year-zero-plus-augusts-book-month.shtml[02:51:53] <sqrrl> lol.[03:22:43] *** ivan`` has quit IRC[03:25:04] *** ivan`` has joined #bittorrent[04:12:30] *** sqrrl has quit IRC[05:14:44] *** localhost has quit IRC[05:18:16] *** localhost has joined #bittorrent[05:21:24] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-internet-archive-releases-over-1000000-files-of-freely-downloadable-music-movies-and-books-using-bittorrentr-software-2012-08-07[05:33:09] *** MassaRoddel has quit IRC[05:52:21] *** Smirker has joined #bittorrent[05:58:37] *** Kitsoran has quit IRC[07:03:34] *** burris has quit IRC[07:43:40] *** MassaRoddel has joined #bittorrent[08:08:54] *** hydri has joined #bittorrent[10:16:15] *** The_8472 has joined #bittorrent[13:14:46] *** sqrrl has joined #bittorrent[14:47:01] *** sqrrl has quit IRC[16:01:44] *** thebishop has joined #bittorrent[16:01:46] <thebishop> hi peoples[16:02:39] <thebishop> i'm working on a piece of software that will boost bittorrent performance by making use of all your internet connections simultaneously. We launched a Kickstarter campaign today if anyone would like to support the project: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/523076551/dispatch-the-internet-faster[16:10:00] *** sqrrl has joined #bittorrent[16:14:45] *** BitTorrentBot has quit IRC[16:58:45] <DWKnight> torrent clients don't work well in those kind of setups unless they're specifically designed to[16:59:38] <DWKnight> because of incoming connection handling[17:25:13] *** sqrrl has quit IRC[17:25:55] <kjetilho> oh great. coffeeshop wifi used for torrenting[17:28:54] <thebishop> we've had good results with cable + lte thethering[17:29:44] <thebishop> we have 20Mbp/s cable, and 20 Mbp/s 4g, pulling down linux ISOs at 5MB/sec[17:29:45] <kjetilho> sure, but that's not a very common scenario, is it?[17:29:54] <thebishop> i think it's increasingly common[17:30:08] <thebishop> 4g is becoming ubiquitous[17:30:30] <thebishop> if you've got a home internet connection and a cell phone, you're paying for 2 good broadband connections[17:31:39] <kjetilho> anyway, it's not *that* hard to implement. some thorny edge cases when the same peer connects to you multiple times I guess[17:32:21] <thebishop> hence the kickstarter... but the software already works to boost your torrent downloads[17:32:26] <thebishop> upload... not so much[17:32:27] <kjetilho> the real problem in a mobile environment is the piece size[17:32:33] <thebishop> didn't see it break utorrent or anything though[17:33:52] <DWKnight> [12:32:35pm] <thebishop> upload... not so much <<-- mucho problem there. killing torrent uploads means killing torrents themselves[17:34:23] <thebishop> DWKnight, it's not 'killing upload', it just can't aggregate uploads in the same way[17:35:01] <thebishop> uploads come in over whichever interface connected to the tracker[17:35:06] <DWKnight> it's still messing up the u:d ratio on the system[17:35:18] <thebishop> yeah true, but you don't already configure this on your client?[17:35:27] <DWKnight> not just the client[17:35:32] <DWKnight> you're messing up the whole swarm with that[17:35:47] <kjetilho> did anyone implement merkle trees? (bep-30)[17:36:20] <thebishop> DWKnight, how do you mean? how is it any different from my home connection which gets 20Mb down and often less than 4Mb up?[17:36:30] <kjetilho> thebishop: why can't you aggregate upload?[17:36:30] <thebishop> upload is asymmetric all over the place[17:36:37] <DWKnight> because instead of 20:4, you're going 40:4[17:37:07] <DWKnight> and in bittorrent swarms, a closer balance is better for everyone[17:37:08] <kjetilho> DWKnight: bah, in BitTorrent's infancy, a lot of users had 8000:256 and shit like that[17:37:25] <kjetilho> barely enough upload for the protocol-data[17:37:36] <thebishop> DWKnight, depends on the user, and anyway, i think most people configure an upload bandwidth cap anyway. if you saturate your upload bandwidth, it makes your entire internet+browsing experience miserable[17:37:54] <thebishop> usually i cap it around 70%[17:38:12] <DWKnight> you're preaching to someone who has been torrenting for 8 years[17:38:20] <DWKnight> it's not news[17:38:55] <DWKnight> I've seen 10:0.128 before[17:38:58] <thebishop> kjetilho, the way the technology works currently, we can only balance outgoing socket connections. don't think it's possible to aggregate upload without a 3rd node in the cloud[17:39:28] <kjetilho> thebishop: you don't announce with a client-id per IP?[17:40:00] <thebishop> kjetilho, so, that's an interesting point. and we might be able to do something like that with an api. this is being discussed. if we can get cooperation with client developers[17:40:36] <thebishop> but the software works with the os, it's independent of your software[17:40:53] <thebishop> it'll improve performance for any protocol using many sockets[17:41:00] <thebishop> including http download managers[17:41:18] <thebishop> but we like bittorrent as a demo because it's built around many socket connections[17:41:56] <kjetilho> oh, I thought it was at the application level[17:42:00] <thebishop> nope[17:42:17] <thebishop> it'll improve download performance on any bt client[17:42:37] <kjetilho> so this is for Windows?[17:42:39] <thebishop> we're testing utorrent, deluge, and Miro internally[17:42:41] <thebishop> yes[17:43:00] <kjetilho> the kickstarter page doesn't actually say ...[17:43:44] <thebishop> kjetilho, "Platform support: Windows 7, XP, and Vista (Also, support for Windows 8 if we reach our $250,000 stretch goal, and Mac support if we reach the $2m stretch goal)"[17:44:37] <kjetilho> ah. way down there :)[17:44:38] * TheSHAD0W could modify a torrent client to open peer connections on multiple adapters, which would give even better performance and be completely compatible with regular clients[17:44:57] <thebishop> dooo it[17:45:43] <kjetilho> TheSHAD0W: right. not very difficult, although ideally you shouldn't have to send IHAVE on multiple connections to the same peer[17:45:58] <kjetilho> small point, though[17:46:20] <TheSHAD0W> No, I'd write it to have different peer IDs for each adapter, and drop connections when they're duplicated.[17:46:46] <DWKnight> if shadow is thinking the way I think he is, the solution would be extremely clean[17:46:57] <kjetilho> you don't know that, if two such clients are talking[17:47:18] <DWKnight> each adapter would have a separate peer pool[17:47:27] <DWKnight> connections in both directions[17:47:32] <TheSHAD0W> Only issue is you'd probably want different upload/peer count configs for each connection, and the configuration would be difficult.[17:47:53] <TheSHAD0W> And yes, two such clients could establish redundant and possibly undetectable connections that way.[17:48:26] <TheSHAD0W> You'd probably want a peer extension message to send an extra single ID.[17:48:50] <DWKnight> I could see the fringe case of getting two clients with this code getting connections to each other on both adapters[17:49:11] <TheSHAD0W> Depending on the number of peers in the torrent, it could be very rare.[17:49:15] <kjetilho> may not be worthwhile to handle it, the downside to the "redundant" connection is so small[17:49:24] <TheSHAD0W> And actually might not be harmful, except for a few redundant messages.[17:49:27] <DWKnight> but with both ends being on different connections, it would still be cleaner to keep both in that situation[17:50:02] <TheSHAD0W> Ot[17:50:12] <TheSHAD0W> It'd just mean the peers could trade data more quickly.[17:50:33] <kjetilho> yes[17:50:42] <kjetilho> there is the economic aspect, too.[17:51:03] <kjetilho> some users will probably want to reserve the use of LTE for special occasions ;)[17:51:48] <kjetilho> so a usable configuration UI may be the hardest issue ...[17:51:52] <TheSHAD0W> Bleh. BitTornado really is too badly deprecated to serve as a real test bed.[17:53:07] <DWKnight> given that you're just building the entire 2-client LPD bridge process into one client, the in-client configuration IS the hardest part[17:53:54] <thebishop> kjetilho, the software provides cost-awareness if your wireless connections are expensive[17:54:25] <thebishop> though we expect 4g to become more ubiquitous, less expensive, and less restrictive as time passes[17:54:28] <thebishop> it has to, right?[17:54:49] <thebishop> i mean, people are going to be using LTE on their home connections[17:54:54] <DWKnight> needs google to pull a "google fibre" in wireless[17:55:05] <DWKnight> or some other provider[17:55:13] <kjetilho> I'm not so sure about that, the air is a limited resource[17:55:38] <DWKnight> usable wireless frequencies are definitely massively limited though[17:57:23][17:57:39] <DWKnight> then again, the whole google fibre is going to throw a monkey wrench into the plans of any incumbent in areas they deploy in[17:58:04] <DWKnight> I had 3m/640k in that era[17:58:11] <K`Tetch> I'd love to have SOME option other than the crap 6mbit-for$47/month-AT&T DEL[17:58:15] <DWKnight> then 1.5m/640k[17:58:15] <thebishop> it's funny with google fiber. i can't even get worked up about the usual privacy crap because i'm already using 8.8.4.4 for my dns[17:58:24] <thebishop> it's just an awesome deal[17:58:30] <DWKnight> now on 15m/15m[17:58:42] <K`Tetch> use opennic as a primary then thebishop[17:59:12] <K`Tetch> giving you access to a bunch of other TLDs in the rare occasion you want them[17:59:14] <thebishop> K`Tetch, good tip[17:59:29] <thebishop> what i really want is a better dyndns option, or something similar[17:59:31] * K`Tetch owns about 20 .pirate domains[18:00:04] <thebishop> i love the owncloud software, but i don't have a good solution for using one url to get it at home and outside, and dyndns is flaky/a little expensive[18:00:05] * TheSHAD0W wants youarea.pirate :([18:00:17] * K`Tetch has iama.pirate[18:00:22] <thebishop> nice[18:00:30] <thebishop> are opennic domains cheap?[18:00:45] <K`Tetch> free[18:00:48] <thebishop> nice[18:01:26] *** unholycrab has joined #bittorrent[18:02:01] <unholycrab> i want to sort through a folder full of .torrent files, and delete those that have certain trackers on them, without removing downloaded data or anything.[18:02:05] <thebishop> K`Tetch, only problem is dhcp overriding my dns configuration[18:02:18] <unholycrab> utorrent allows me to either remove the torrent from the list, or delete everyrthing including the downloaded data[18:02:54] <unholycrab> ive seen programs that will remove trackers from torrents, but i want to remove the files[18:02:59] <thebishop> K`Tetch, know a way around that?[18:03:00] <unholycrab> the .torrent files, i mean[18:04:17] <DWKnight> unholycrab: you could probably cobble something together that uses the webui api for uTorrent[18:04:28] <DWKnight> it's covered in their forums[18:04:58] <thebishop> K`Tetch, can you get your ima.pirate page over 3g?[18:05:36] <unholycrab> hmm[18:05:53] <DWKnight> (the api part)[18:06:24] <unholycrab> i suppose i could also copy the torrent files to a different computer or vm, and delete them with utorrent there[18:06:30] <unholycrab> and then copy the remaining back over[18:08:42] <K`Tetch> i don't use 3g thebishop[18:11:36] <thebishop> K`Tetch, ah, kind of important for my purposes. i want to be able to get my files, especially music while in transit[18:12:00] <thebishop> i love the idea of community-managed dns though[18:12:54] <thebishop> maybe i could run my own SOCKS server on the same machine that runs owncloud...[18:13:32] <thebishop> nah, wouldn't work[18:33:30] *** thebishop has quit IRC[18:34:30] *** thebishop has joined #bittorrent[18:45:02] *** thebishop has quit IRC[18:45:09] *** thebishop has joined #bittorrent[19:18:28] <TheSHAD0W> http://torrentfreak.com/video-police-raid-on-the-mansion-of-megauploads-kim-dotcom-120808/[19:32:17] *** k0ral has quit IRC[19:34:06] *** GrecKo has quit IRC[19:35:13] *** GrecKo has joined #bittorrent[19:38:04] *** MassaRoddel has quit IRC[19:38:04] *** andar has quit IRC[19:39:39] *** MassaRoddel has joined #bittorrent[19:43:56] *** k0ral has joined #bittorrent[19:49:37] *** andar has joined #bittorrent[19:55:21] *** edong23 has quit IRC[19:55:27] *** unholycrab has quit IRC[19:55:27] *** jordan has quit IRC[19:58:01] *** unholycrab has joined #bittorrent[19:58:02] *** edong23 has joined #bittorrent[19:58:02] *** jordan has joined #bittorrent[21:26:15] *** sqrrl has joined #bittorrent[22:40:40] *** pozic has joined #bittorrent[22:40:57] <pozic> Is there any client which doesn't crash?[22:41:08] <pozic> (Linux, x86-64)[22:45:06] <sqrrl> doesn't utorrent run in wine[22:45:58] <pozic> sqrrl: extra constraint: open-source[22:46:47] <sqrrl> well it's free, why should os or not matter[22:48:35] <IRConan> what a question...[22:48:37] <pozic> sqrrl: is utorrent also really stable?[22:48:51] <IRConan> transmission, rtorrent, deluge, ...[22:48:54] <pozic> IRConan: what's wrong with it?[22:49:00] <pozic> IRConan: transmission crashes.[22:49:24] <IRConan> not for me...[22:49:32] <pozic> IRConan: and this is relevant, how?[22:49:45] <sqrrl> i'm a windows user and utorrent is the most stable of all but i have no idea when it comes to linux lol[22:50:13] <IRConan> because it means your requirement is somethign which the potential question answerer cannot know[22:50:23] <IRConan> because all clients, I imagine, do not crash for the developers[22:50:48] <pozic> IRConan: sure, in the limited test cases of the developers it doesn't crash.[22:51:07] <pozic> IRConan: I am basically implicitly pointing out that the developers didn't think of all cases.[22:51:11] <IRConan> and, in the case of things like transmission, it works for eg. the ubuntu userbase[22:51:36] <pozic> IRConan: that you someone have the belief that it does work in all cases is nothing short of being naive.[22:51:55] <IRConan> have you considered telling us what exactly you do to cause the client to crash and perhaps someone can help you more[22:52:18] <pozic> IRConan: also, that you distribute this belief as if it is normal that all cases are being covered and that it is a user error when a segmentation fault occurs, is rather stupid.[22:52:27] <pozic> IRConan: why would I do that?[22:52:43] <pozic> IRConan: I doubt there are zero open bugs for Transmission.[22:52:48] <pozic> Let me check.[22:53:02] <IRConan> I'm not implying that testing is perfect, I'm implying that most software which is released works for most cases[22:53:10] <IRConan> so you're probably hitting an edge case[22:53:32] <sqrrl> what about qbittorrent or rtorrent?[22:53:47] <pozic> It has 53 open bugs.[22:53:57] <pozic> IRConan: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN EDGE CASE.[22:54:06] <pozic> IRConan: all cases are equivalent.[22:54:15] <pozic> God, when do people learn?[22:54:17] <IRConan> what kind of crack are you smoking? can I have some?[22:54:24] <IRConan> must be good shit...[22:54:37] <IRConan> anyway, I'll leave you since I'm not really able to help[22:54:49] <pozic> IRConan: with you belief system, you must also belief in God.[22:54:54] <IRConan> lol[22:55:08] <pozic> 53 new bugs means that the software is _shit_.[22:55:13] <IRConan> LOL[22:55:19] <pozic> I don't understand how you can give it any other label.[22:55:40] <pozic> If my software has 3 open bugs, I am already worried.[22:56:05] <DWKnight> I'm with IRConan on this[22:56:09] <sqrrl> uh you are a hello world developer?[22:56:15] <pozic> DWKnight: look at me not caring.[22:56:31] <pozic> I have learned a long time ago that 99.9999% of humanity is retarded.[22:56:45] <DWKnight> you're demonstrating that[22:56:53] <pozic> As such, I shouldn't be concerned with the beliefs of random people on IRC.[22:57:03] <IRConan> anyhow... if you've had issues with all of the major clients I'd suggest you need to consider the commonality[22:57:11] <IRConan> these are: a) you, b) your computer, c) your OS[22:57:22] <pozic> If you went to some Ivy league university, or whatever, I might value your opinion.[22:57:36] <IRConan> well I don't live in the US...[22:57:37] <pozic> But otherwise, I am just not going to care.[22:57:49] <IRConan> however I do have a masters degree[22:57:53] <IRConan> in computer science[22:58:23] <pozic> IRConan: well, if you don't think 53 new bugs means it is a giant failure, then you clearly didn't go to a good one.[22:58:38] <IRConan> any software with significant complexity is going to have bugs[22:58:46] <pozic> IRConan: yeah, well... no.[22:59:08] <sqrrl> well... yes.[22:59:12] <DWKnight> continue deluding yourself then pozic[22:59:15] <pozic> I know how to make zero defect software, because that's what people thought me.[22:59:23] <pozic> taught me*[22:59:28] <IRConan> why don't you write a torrent client then?[22:59:29] <DWKnight> as a program's complexity increases, the number of bugs increase[22:59:35] <pozic> DWKnight: yeah... well... no.[22:59:36] <IRConan> let me know when you're done because if it's perfect I'll want to use it[22:59:53] <pozic> IRConan: sure, I will get right on it when there is a market for it.[22:59:57] <sqrrl> i think we have a troll here[23:00:24] <pozic> IRConan: if you are willing to pay more than 10$ for it, perhaps there is a market for it.[23:00:48] <pozic> Somehow I think that people who want to use Torrents aren't the best market.[23:00:52] <pozic> I wonder why.[23:00:54] <IRConan> for a 100% defect free guarantee, I'll pay you a fair bit[23:01:02] <IRConan> full refund after my first issue though, right?[23:01:19] <pozic> IRConan: would you mind it being command line only?[23:01:30] <pozic> IRConan: you can build your own broken GUI on it.[23:01:33] <kjetilho> there are only two non-trivial bug free programs in the world: MetaFont and TeX[23:01:51] <pozic> AFAIK, all GUIs are broken at this date.[23:02:23] <IRConan> oh... so you're not capable of making a bug-free GUI? shame, I thought you were perfect[23:02:29] <pozic> GTK+ doesn't even support suid binaries, because they themselves believe they cannot write bug-free software.[23:02:33] <pozic> IRConan: sure, I can.[23:02:41] <sqrrl> pozic: you will also have to make sure to not to use system calls as those can be buggy[23:02:42] <pozic> IRConan: it only would make it 1000 times more expensive.[23:02:51] <IRConan> kjetilho: that's only because they define a defect as an undocumented feature![23:03:05] <pozic> sqrrl: fine, I can write my own OS too.[23:03:16] <kjetilho> IRConan: no[23:03:17] <DWKnight> get on that and come back to us when you're done[23:03:24] <DWKnight> then we might entertain your attitude[23:03:25] <sqrrl> right, own OS it is.[23:03:28] <IRConan> pozic: out of interest, what platform are you running existing clients on where they all crash?[23:03:41] <pozic> DWKnight: right after I get the documentation, OK?[23:03:53] <IRConan> kjetilho: that is actually true with TeX...[23:03:53] <pozic> Crazy hardware people.[23:04:02] <IRConan> which documentation?[23:04:03] <pozic> There is no way TeX is bugfree.[23:04:03] <DWKnight> we'll wait[23:04:15] <pozic> IRConan: yeah, I get what you mean.[23:04:29] <kjetilho> pozic: Knuth has doubled the reward for each new reported bug[23:04:29] <IRConan> pozic: sorry... documentation of what?[23:04:36] <pozic> kjetilho: no, he didn't.[23:04:37] <IRConan> what is it now?[23:04:42] <pozic> kjetilho: he did in the past.[23:04:47] <pozic> kjetilho: then it became too high.[23:04:52] <pozic> kjetilho: so the doubling has stopped.[23:05:04] <pozic> IRConan: of the hardware.[23:05:17] <pozic> IRConan: so, a guaranteed interface for when doing X results in Y.[23:05:35] <IRConan> pretty sure x86 instruction set is pretty well documented[23:05:49] <pozic> IRConan: I don't think Intel has ever delivered a correct piece of hardware.[23:06:10] <pozic> IRConan: and yes, x86 is quite well documented.[23:06:16] <IRConan> who said anything about intel?[23:06:23] *** Kitsoran has joined #bittorrent[23:06:23] <pozic> IRConan: AMD?[23:06:28] <pozic> IRConan: uhm... LOL[23:06:47] <kjetilho> the devil is in the buses, anyway[23:06:50] <IRConan> what platform are you running on? perhaps all the problems with your client are because of these dodgy CPUs[23:06:53] <IRConan> I'm sure you could make a better one[23:07:13] <pozic> IRConan: no, the problem with micro-electronics is that nobody knows what they are doing.[23:07:19] <kjetilho> so many crappy PCI-cards, sending junk on the bus in edge cases[23:07:27] <pozic> IRConan: they _hope_ that they know what they are doing.[23:08:03] <IRConan> one of the biggest problems is actually that recent lithography techniques can only produce the right output with high probability based on quantum diffraction patterns[23:08:20] <IRConan> luckily we have hardware testing and binning such that the dodgy ones don't hit market[23:08:29] <pozic> IRConan: which is an even weaker property.[23:09:02] <pozic> IRConan: so, perhaps the whole industry is going in the wrong way.[23:10:06] <IRConan> anyway... the answer to your question is that most clients can be used for the majority of their intended purposes without issues[23:10:18] <IRConan> have you considered raising a bug report?[23:10:20] <pozic> IRConan: no, that's not an answer.[23:10:29] <pozic> IRConan: an answer would be 'use client X'.[23:10:39] <pozic> IRConan: or 'everything sucks, live with it'.[23:10:41] <DWKnight> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html <-- you fail at this[23:10:42] <IRConan> sorry, you were asking for a perfect one, such a thing does not exisst[23:10:50] <pozic> IRConan: ok, thanks.[23:11:23] <pozic> DWKnight: you know, a few years ago I would have had an interest in doing that.[23:11:36] <pozic> DWKnight: nowadays the only reason for bugs to exist is amateuristic developers.[23:11:51] <pozic> I assume the Bittorrent protocol is documented.[23:11:55] <IRConan> yes[23:12:11] <pozic> So, if it is documented, it is pure incompetence if something segfaults.[23:12:13] <IRConan> pozic: how do you intend for software to become problem-free without people opening bug-reports?[23:12:27] <pozic> IRConan: it would be written to be correct the first time.[23:12:29] <IRConan> pozic: likely it is due to you using different platform[23:12:46] <pozic> IRConan: no, because it has been compiled specifically for my platform.[23:12:53] <pozic> IRConan: and not by me.[23:13:02] <pozic> IRConan: I use the same release as millions of others.[23:13:06] <IRConan> pozic: was it compiled by the developers?[23:13:15] <pozic> IRConan: that doesn't matter.[23:13:22] <pozic> IRConan: it's not like they have magic hands.[23:13:24] <IRConan> probably not... so your gripe is probably with the packagers[23:13:30] <pozic> IRConan: and I think it's Python.[23:13:38] <pozic> IRConan: as such there isn't even any compilation.[23:13:43] <IRConan> you've yet to tell us what platform you're even on, and what client you're even using?[23:13:55] <pozic> Anyway, this is going nowhere.[23:14:00] <pozic> I will try deluge and rtorrent.[23:14:12] <pozic> Perhaps rtorrent is made my more intelligent monkeys.[23:14:24] <pozic> by*[23:18:29] <IRConan> pozic: if you care... I found rtorrent's biggest flaw to be its RAM usage. I believe it buffers all currently transferring chunks in RAM which at gigabit-like speeds with many open connections can be quite a lot[23:19:14] <IRConan> once that gets tight I've known it to become unstable[23:19:26] <DWKnight> DeHackEd: poke[23:19:33] <IRConan> if you're running in a home environment that's unlikely to be a problem[23:19:36] <pozic> IRConan: and it's not configurable?[23:19:55] <IRConan> you can configure its max usage I believe, which just results in it failing to do some transfers[23:19:56] <kjetilho> pozic: you can limit speeds[23:19:56] <pozic> IRConan: from what I have read there is some demand for gigabit clients.[23:20:10] <pozic> kjetilho: which of course isn't a solution.[23:20:17] <kjetilho> sorry, that doesn't help. you can limit connections[23:20:17] <pozic> kjetilho: I can't believe you even suggest that.[23:20:40] <IRConan> you can limit RAM usage, and it just does as much as it can in that amount[23:20:42] <IRConan> iirc[23:20:50] <IRConan> however, I've since switched to transmission[23:21:01] <pozic> IRConan: why did you switch then?[23:21:08] <pozic> IRConan: it seems it chose the right solution.[23:21:46] <pozic> There also seems to be some global conspiracy in that you cannot put share speed to zero with lots of clients.[23:21:59] <DWKnight> because torrents die if people do that[23:22:01] <pozic> You have to patch the source yourself to set it to 'share nothing'.[23:22:02] <DWKnight> literally[23:22:11] <pozic> DWKnight: no, it doesn't.[23:22:21] <DWKnight> if enough people do it, it does[23:22:22] <pozic> DWKnight: some people might be in $COUNTRYWITHOUTRULES.[23:22:34] <DWKnight> even factoring those people in[23:22:37] <pozic> DWKnight: other might be in $COUNTRYWITHSLIGHTLYBETTERRULES[23:22:40] <IRConan> why do you have to be in a country without rules to share things?[23:22:53] <DWKnight> how long have you been dealing with torrents pozic?[23:23:12] <pozic> IRConan: because the only other way would be to be a poor unemployed person.[23:23:29] <pozic> IRConan: if you have some assets, they can sue your ass off.[23:23:35] <pozic> IRConan: that's why.[23:23:42] <IRConan> pozic: who's "they"?[23:24:02] <pozic> IRConan: whoever owns certain rights on whatever you would be sharing.[23:24:16] <IRConan> why would you be sharing something which you did not have license or permission to do so?[23:24:25] <pozic> IRConan: I wouldn't.[23:24:39] <kjetilho> pozic: downloading is as illegal as uploading, AFAIK[23:24:53] <pozic> kjetilho: sure, as far as you know.[23:24:59] <kjetilho> you are making an unauthorised copy[23:25:00] <IRConan> depends on the content of course[23:25:11] <pozic> Which is luckily something which is of no concern to me.[23:25:17] <IRConan> but if you are allowed to make a copy why is the other person authorised to use the tracker not?[23:25:29] <kjetilho> IRConan: indeed.[23:25:35] <pozic> IRConan: ask that to those who make the laws.[23:25:59] <kjetilho> pozic: this is part of the Berne treaty, so you better read up.[23:26:09] <pozic> kjetilho: no, it isn't.[23:26:39] <pozic> Anyway, you don't need to lecture me in law.[23:27:39] *** thebishop has quit IRC[23:27:52] <pozic> IRConan: so, why did you abandon rtorrent?[23:28:02] <IRConan> I like transmission's design[23:28:19] <pozic> The design of the Titanic was nice too.[23:28:25] <pozic> Still it crashed, like transmission.[23:28:33] <IRConan> I don't intend to take transmission near any icebergs[23:28:37] <IRConan> and it hasn't crashed yet for me[23:28:50] <IRConan> where rtorrent was having problems achieving the speeds I wanted[23:28:50] <pozic> IRConan: it was fine for me too, until it crashed.[23:29:32] <kjetilho> pozic: see article 9[23:29:42] <pozic> It seems rtorrent has also open crash issues.[23:30:01] <IRConan> pozic: I also found the rtorrent CLI to be unusable with 4-figure open torrent counts[23:30:12] <pozic> IRConan: wow, you are hardcore.[23:30:27] <pozic> IRConan: why would you want to do that?[23:30:39] <pozic> IRConan: do you provide some commercial service to others?[23:31:23] <IRConan> no[23:31:39] <pozic> IRConan: then why would your run 1000+ torrents?[23:31:47] <IRConan> lots of nodes, lots of datasets[23:32:00] <pozic> IRConan: ah, like Facebook does?[23:32:10] <IRConan> can't really go into detail[23:33:02] <pozic> IRConan: based on that alone I can derive that you work for a for profit company which probably does data mining.[23:33:24] <pozic> IRConan: with 1000+ torrents that can only be companies with more than 500 employees.[23:33:41] <pozic> Which aren't that many companies, and perhaps it's Facebook given your response.[23:33:49] <IRConan> you can assume whatever you like[23:33:54] <pozic> Facebook has blog posts on these things.[23:34:06] <pozic> You just don't want to tie your identity to your IRC name.[23:34:18] <pozic> A game which you have already lost now.[23:34:30] <kjetilho> a friend of mine ran thousands of torrents, simply to keep a lot of scientific journal related torrents alive[23:34:33] *** Fish-Face has joined #bittorrent[23:34:46] <kjetilho> obviously most of these torrents were idle 99% of the time[23:34:57] <pozic> kjetilho: why would that be legal?[23:35:03] <kjetilho> it wasn't[23:35:32] <pozic> kjetilho: ok, so if a stranger doesn't even break the law, you point it out, but when your friends do it, you don't call the police?[23:35:35] <kjetilho> it actually was a friend of mine. not the kind of friend with erectile problems you tell your doctor about[23:35:57] <kjetilho> pozic: I pointed it out, I didn't call the police[23:36:25] <pozic> kjetilho: I will read the article, but I don't think it applies.[23:36:31] <IRConan> no-one in here is pretending that bittorrent is never used for illegal filesharing[23:36:55] <pozic> Also, the whole 'OMG, it's illegal'-debate, it rather stupid.[23:37:10] <pozic> Because via networks like Freenet, you can do the same thing, except 10 times slower.[23:37:33] <pozic> Except governments won't be able to do anything at any impressive scale against those.[23:37:35] <kjetilho> no, the stupid thing is to think just downloading is legal[23:38:16] <pozic> kjetilho: it's not legal in most places in the world.[23:38:37] <kjetilho> so you might as well be a good pirate citizen and share as much as you download[23:38:46] <pozic> kjetilho: uploading is illegal is a lot more places in the world.[23:39:29] <kjetilho> there is no difference. but the damages MPAA can extract from you is quite different, of course[23:41:09] <pozic> kjetilho: the MPAA cannot do anything.[23:41:21] <pozic> kjetilho: they can do something in the US.[23:41:59] <kjetilho> ok, good. I'm in a non-MPAA country, too[23:42:05] <pozic> kjetilho: are you a lawyer?[23:42:17] <pozic> kjetilho: if not, why are you providing legal advice?[23:42:19] <Fish-Face> (this guy's never heard of extradition)[23:42:31] <kjetilho> pozic: this is not legal advice[23:42:47] <pozic> Fish-Face: for civil cases?[23:42:57] *** nprice has joined #bittorrent[23:42:59] <nprice> Bittorrent is a highly illegal hacking tool used by [✔] Terrorists [✔] Child Pornographers [✔] Cybercriminals [✔] IRC Rogues [✘] Law-Abiding Citizens[23:43:18] <Fish-Face> the US doesn't give a shit :P[23:43:24] <pozic> Fish-Face: that would be a new thing and especially for something which is not illegal in the country of origin to begin with.[23:43:27] <kjetilho> in any case, it is not illegal to provide legal advice for lay people[23:43:32] <kjetilho> except in the US[23:43:34] <kjetilho> possibly[23:44:02] <nprice> liability is an issue[23:44:14] <pozic> Fish-Face: please show me extraditions for bittorrent.[23:44:36] <Fish-Face> there's a guy who's appealing extradition for copyright infringement in the UK right now[23:44:45] <nprice> yeah but it's not bittorrent[23:44:48] <Fish-Face> it's not bittorrent, but it doesn't matter[23:44:57] <IRConan> copyright infringement is all the same[23:45:04] <IRConan> Fish-Face: that would be a first though, iirc[23:45:15] <nprice> copyright infringement is highly illegal, morally deplorable, and utterly stupid[23:45:16] <IRConan> I know no-one's successfully been prosecuted in the UK for online piracy[23:52:06] *** nprice has quit IRC[23:52:06] *** nprice has joined #bittorrent[23:52:21] *** nprice has left #bittorrent[23:57:57] <DeHackEd> DWKnight: problem?[23:58:35] <DWKnight> see the scrollback?[23:58:43] <DeHackEd> hard to miss[23:58:48] <DeHackEd> but I don't feel like reading it now[23:59:08] <DWKnight> tl;dr: pozic has demonstrated one of his own early points[23:59:56] <DeHackEd> I use rtorrent in 64 bits. it's stable. end of discussion.