[00:27:02] *** xmisn has joined #bittorrent
[00:32:29] *** xmisn has quit IRC
[00:51:54] *** K`Tetch has quit IRC
[01:58:43] *** [diablo] has quit IRC
[02:08:41] *** alus has joined #bittorrent
[03:16:05] *** init0 has quit IRC
[03:17:53] *** init0 has joined #bittorrent
[03:57:09] *** edigaryev has joined #bittorrent
[04:02:31] *** The_8472 has quit IRC
[04:06:42] *** The_8472 has joined #bittorrent
[04:37:10] *** edigaryev has quit IRC
[06:03:33] *** ari-__-e has joined #bittorrent
[06:06:55] *** ari-_-e has quit IRC
[06:09:55] *** ari-__-e is now known as ari-_-e
[06:10:42] *** MassaRoddel has quit IRC
[08:31:31] *** MassaRoddel has joined #bittorrent
[08:55:02] *** ari-_-e has quit IRC
[09:49:08] *** jayne has quit IRC
[09:50:40] *** jayne has joined #bittorrent
[11:09:55] *** ari-_-e has joined #bittorrent
[11:46:18] *** IRConan has quit IRC
[11:46:26] *** IRConan has joined #bittorrent
[14:18:29] *** The_8472 has quit IRC
[14:18:30] *** tris has quit IRC
[14:24:22] *** The_8472 has joined #bittorrent
[14:24:22] *** tris has joined #bittorrent
[15:10:49] *** jonasl has quit IRC
[15:13:36] *** jonasl has joined #bittorrent
[15:23:25] *** K`Tetch has joined #bittorrent
[15:28:22] *** TheSHAD0W has quit IRC
[15:43:22] *** TheSHAD0W has joined #bittorrent
[15:43:23] *** klapaucjusz has joined #bittorrent
[15:54:02] *** K`Tetch has quit IRC
[15:58:38] *** TheSHAD0W has quit IRC
[15:59:20] *** TheSHAD0W has joined #bittorrent
[15:59:42] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.boingboing.net/2010/06/23/ascap-raising-money.html
[16:01:10] *** Andrius has joined #bittorrent
[16:03:24] <klapaucjusz> TheSHAD0W: yeah, that's excellent.
[16:03:37] <klapaucjusz> They're informing their members of the alternatives.
[16:03:53] <TheSHAD0W> I love the possessive phrasing, though.
[16:03:56] <klapaucjusz> Has anyone confirmed the authenticity yet?
[16:16:06] *** BentMyWookie has quit IRC
[16:21:20] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZFXKz2NCPc&feature=channel
[16:25:17] <burris> looks like they're studying winnie
[16:26:01] <DreadWingKnight> one big flaw in their investigative method
[16:26:11] <DreadWingKnight> supernodes in supernode systems may not host any files at all
[16:26:19] <DreadWingKnight> let alone all of the ones you can find through them
[16:26:20] <burris> ah look "winny"
[16:27:12] <burris> heh "the oldest node with the file is the node where the file was originally uploaded"
[16:27:35] <DreadWingKnight> chances of that being true: 7.2% on the good days (for them)
[16:31:30] *** BentMyWookie has joined #bittorrent
[16:32:15] <burris> when i was in europe i was keeping up wih one of my favorite shows on youtube, the guys that were dedicated to this show and posting the epsisodes got 512c'd off youtube so they started a torrent site... all the people watching on YT couldn't figure out the torrent site, they wanted to click and watch and BT was horribly confusing for them...
[16:35:19] *** klapaucjusz has quit IRC
[16:36:58] *** klapaucjusz has joined #bittorrent
[16:38:38] <The_8472> odd... BT got much simpler over time
[16:38:58] <burris> this is happening right now
[16:39:44] <burris> also, the site has all sorts of stupid antifeatures like limiting how many torrents you can be on, "hit-n-run" bs, private flag, etc...
[16:39:56] <The_8472> ah, i see
[16:40:06] <The_8472> well... it's... 1. download client 2. open magnet link 3. download video these days
[16:40:11] <The_8472> not really that hard to grasp
[16:40:25] <burris> that's very hard for people, on YT you just click and watch
[16:40:56] <The_8472> how so? yes, it involves more steps than youtube. but so does changing the battery on a clock...
[16:41:24] <burris> peole have no mental picture of how its supposed to work, they want to click and watch why should it be any different?
[16:41:34] <The_8472> just because A is more complex than B it's not "very hard" if you can manage C of a similar complexity to B
[16:41:41] <The_8472> err, similar to A
[16:41:44] <burris> on YT you can click and watch, anything else is lame
[16:42:03] <init0> well no form of p2p has streaming (yet) so take it or leave it ;)
[16:42:14] <The_8472> then you need a simple: "1. download client 2. open magnet link 3. download video" picture somewhere
[16:42:18] <burris> whatever, BT DNA
[16:42:34] <burris> why wait, I want to watch something now
[16:42:48] <The_8472> on youtube you have to redownload everytime you want to watch
[16:42:54] <The_8472> THAT is lame
[16:43:10] <burris> no, you start watching right away there is no "download" step
[16:43:28] <klapaucjusz> Hmm...
[16:43:38] <The_8472> "buffering" = downloading
[16:43:50] <klapaucjusz> Like it or not, click-to-watch is what most people want.
[16:44:22] <burris> yep
[16:44:22] <init0> while that may be the case why do discuss this on a bt channel?
[16:44:27] <klapaucjusz> ...and that's the user experience we need to aim for, without however sacrificing the current user experience.
[16:44:30] <The_8472> well, i also want a railgun in my front yard
[16:44:38] <The_8472> but i guess we don't get all what we want
[16:44:50] <klapaucjusz> init0: because that's what we need to think about for a future bittorrent system.
[16:44:59] <The_8472> <klapaucjusz> ...and that's the user experience we need to aim for <- so, when do i get my railgun?
[16:45:14] <klapaucjusz> < The_8472> THAT is lame
[16:45:22] <klapaucjusz> ^ you're right, Youtube is lame.
[16:45:44] <burris> youtube is not lame
[16:45:45] <klapaucjusz> Then why are we (the Free Software community) unable to provide our users with a Youtube-like experience, but one that doesn't suck?
[16:45:50] <The_8472> what we need is multicast.
[16:46:10] <klapaucjusz> My question stands.
[16:46:10] <burris> now you have two problems hahahaha
[16:46:39] <init0> klapaucjusz: no we don't - bt is not intended to be or become some sort of video streaming system
[16:46:45] <The_8472> because streaming = in order delivery = various problems for swarming as long as bandwidth is scarce compared to the bitrate
[16:47:10] <burris> bt is part of a video streaming system
[16:47:12] <klapaucjusz> I know all of that.
[16:47:22] <burris> er, not streaming, progressive dl
[16:47:48] <The_8472> burris, as long as it's backed by a CDN... yeah... not good enough for independent publishers
[16:47:54] <burris> http://www.bittorrent.com/dna?csrc=splash
[16:48:24] <burris> vuze
[16:48:29] <burris> vuze doesn't do progressive dl?
[16:48:47] <burris> vuze store gone?
[16:48:49] <The_8472> it does, but only for content backed by servers in case there are not enough seeders
[16:49:11] <burris> no mention of vuze store on the site
[16:49:13] <The_8472> progressive download on random swarms = can hurt the swarm = bad idea
[16:49:17] <klapaucjusz> The_8472: link?
[16:49:32] <klapaucjusz> (For vuze's progressive download technology.)
[16:49:34] <burris> I guess the vuze store is sleeping
[16:50:06] <The_8472> about as successful as the bittorrent.com store ^^
[16:50:26] <burris> no way I think the vuze store was way more successful, like people actually used the vuze store
[16:50:41] <The_8472> not enough though
[16:51:55] <The_8472> anyway, bittorrent can be made to stream, but only sometimes, depending on (to the user) arcane conditions.
[16:52:14] <The_8472> i think "streams sometimes" is worse than "no streaming".
[16:52:25] <The_8472> becasue it raises expectations...
[16:53:05] <burris> I wonder how vuze is going to make money
[16:53:36] <burris> ah, limewire pro
[16:53:49] <klapaucjusz> Are they not?
[16:54:18] <burris> if they were making money off the store they wouldn't have killed it
[16:54:48] * klapaucjusz was brought up in a Communist dictatorship, and he doesn't understand capitalism very well.
[16:54:55] <burris> maybe people will pay $25 a year for dvd burning, antivirus, and "10 search sites"
[16:54:58] <klapaucjusz> Are Vuze no making money?
[16:55:35] <burris> I'm not sure who vuze had deals with but the mpaa studios have big minimum gurantees, so you're forking over big money every month to them even if nobody is buying
[16:55:58] <burris> so if nobody is buying you get rid of it quickly so you don't just hand all your money away
[16:56:13] <burris> vuze store hung on for a while, they probably had good deals with the small studios
[16:57:02] <burris> one of the ways bittorrent makes money is by licensing trademarks and software to home router/nas manufacturers
[16:57:25] <burris> haven't seen any blue frogs on nas boxen at the store
[16:57:37] <klapaucjusz> Trademarks?
[16:57:45] <burris> do a google
[16:57:54] <The_8472> bittorrent's seal of approval on thingies
[16:58:40] <The_8472> vuze does streaming to network appliances, not sure how/if they get any deals from that
[16:58:41] <klapaucjusz> Oh my god.
[16:58:48] * The_8472 stays out of the business side
[16:59:52] <burris> vuze could learn a thing or two about upselling from Limewire or Real
[16:59:55] <The_8472> and no idea if anyone buys the + version
[16:59:57] <klapaucjusz> "t is contrary to our purpose and goals to be associated in the minds of consumers with commercial products to which we have no connection. As such, any effort to commercialize any of the BITTORRENT technology requires a trademark license from us."
[17:00:33] <klapaucjusz> Transmission-based NAS require a license?  YEah, right.
[17:01:04] <The_8472> only if you sell and advertise it as "BitTorrent" capable i guess
[17:01:12] <klapaucjusz> "We're sensitive to people calling their software BitTorrent to achieve a certain level of popularity in order to distribute spyware and adware," Navin said.
[17:01:34] <burris> standard trademark stuff
[17:02:36] <klapaucjusz> What about "Compatible with BitTorrent"?
[17:03:20] <burris> i'm pretty sure trademark law allows you to state compatibility but you should check with your lawyer if your ass is on the line
[17:04:05] <The_8472> *cough*IBM-compatible*cough*
[17:04:31] <klapaucjusz> I see, thanks for the info.
[17:04:45] <klapaucjusz> (And no, I'm not commercialising anything, just idle curiosity.)
[17:05:22] <klapaucjusz> burris: do you work for them?
[17:05:35] <burris> no I work for myself
[17:05:57] <klapaucjusz> Link?
[17:06:15] <klapaucjusz> (Perhaps by PM, so you're not accused of advertising on a public chan.)
[17:25:26] <burris> hmm, I guess vuze store has been gone since january
[17:26:04] <burris> a year prior they were crowing about 10 million uniques per month
[17:35:27] *** Gottaname has quit IRC
[17:43:01] *** Gottaname has joined #bittorrent
[17:55:23] <TheSHAD0W> http://techie-buzz.com/tech-news/facebook-twitter-bittorrent-update.html
[18:41:22] *** zophy has joined #bittorrent
[18:47:08] *** klapaucjusz has quit IRC
[19:09:21] *** zophy has quit IRC
[19:14:15] *** ss7 has joined #bittorrent
[19:14:47] <ss7> is there a usual period demonoid opens registrations?
[19:19:57] <TheSHAD0W> Ask elsewhere, this isn't a good place for that question.
[19:54:12] *** ari-_-e has quit IRC
[19:57:21] *** ari-_-e has joined #bittorrent
[20:00:46] <charles> ss7: see /topic
[20:11:22] <ss7> charles: thanks for the redundancy
[20:11:42] <The_8472> well, apparently you didn't read it
[20:12:33] <ss7> The_8472: maybe i caught it from The_SHAD0W
[20:12:55] <ss7> hence the term redundancy
[20:15:04] <ss7> I guess I'm in the mood to argue, but that wasn't specified in /topic either.. so I'll refrain.
[20:15:53] * TheSHAD0W reports charles to the Department of Redundancy Department
[20:16:04] *** ari-_-e has quit IRC
[20:16:24] <The_8472> i see someone has been reading tvtropes
[20:16:36] <ss7> TheSHAD0W: clever. :)
[20:17:14] <TheSHAD0W> The_8472: Nope, saw that cartoon years before tvtropes existed.
[20:17:33] <The_8472> oh, ok ^^
[20:19:03] <TheSHAD0W> Hm, looks like it dates from even before the cartoon I'd seen.
[20:28:31] <rot> Hm, someone from CERN sent a mail to the rTorrent mailing list the other day saying they were considering the use of BitTorrent to share virtual machine images among 1500+ servers
[20:28:47] <The_8472> nice
[20:31:44] <TheSHAD0W> Why not?
[20:32:57] *** ari-_-e has joined #bittorrent
[20:51:45] <ss7> is there a way for rtorrent to remember seed statistics after restart?
[20:52:34] <The_8472> what exactly are you referring to?
[20:53:23] <scottwolchok> The_8472: I should have a public version of my paper out by end of week
[20:53:28] <ss7> the ratio
[20:53:35] <scottwolchok> The_8472: can we swap citation info somewhere?
[20:54:38] <The_8472> mh, i should finish it first ^^
[20:54:54] <The_8472> ss7, most clients will remember that across restarts
[20:55:04] <ss7> when I restart rtorrent, it grabs the files from the watch directory but fails to remember previous seed ratios
[20:56:33] <scottwolchok> The_8472: k, info for mine's at http://scott.wolchok.org/research.html
[20:58:18] <The_8472> k, thx
[20:58:28] <The_8472> nice title ^^
[21:00:08] <scottwolchok> it was my advisor's idea. I complained until he explained it to me, and it is actually relevant in this instance
[21:04:04] <The_8472> to distinguish your work from mine, you mostly focused on the vuze DHT?
[21:04:36] <scottwolchok> yep
[21:04:47] <scottwolchok> we speculate on its application to mainline, but don't implement such
[21:04:56] <The_8472> ok, and my method is also more continuous instead of bulk-indexing
[21:05:15] <scottwolchok> sure, I think you could make that claim
[21:05:31] <The_8472> excellent
[21:05:51] <scottwolchok> although our crawler could be run continuously
[21:06:22] <scottwolchok> I won't argue here unless you want to, but I think that it's debateable
[21:07:20] <The_8472> mh, well. you also intercept store operations if i understood that correctly
[21:08:28] <scottwolchok> we receive them as a normal destination; we don't futz with routing in order to get more stores directed to us
[21:09:35] <The_8472> do you perform lookups on your own or just collect the peer lists directly from replication?
[21:09:48] *** ss7 has left #bittorrent
[21:10:16] <The_8472> /me collects infohashes from any incoming lookups and then fetches the peer lists directly
[21:13:37] <scottwolchok> 1) run crawl 2) extract peer lists and infohashes from crawl en masse, dump them into a database, build indices, etc. this is sufficient for tracking people and building a search engine. 3) join the peer list and infohash tables and try to fetch metadata, which currently does not work great
[21:14:24] <scottwolchok> infohashes can't be extracted from lookups in Vuze; it's SHA-1(infohash)
[21:14:44] <The_8472> ahh, ok
[21:14:48] <The_8472> sufficiently different then :)
[21:15:33] <scottwolchok> well, the mainline design would be: 1) run crawl 2) extract peer lists, which contain infohashes from crawl en masse, dump them into a DB, build indices, etc. 3) try to fetch metadata
[21:15:34] <The_8472> my main goal is to fetch metadata. peer lists are mostly a side product of that ^^
[21:16:02] <scottwolchok> for your purposes, why not just crawl torrent sites/torrage/torcache?
[21:16:15] <scottwolchok> isohunt for one lets you do infohash->torrent lookup
[21:16:24] <The_8472> i find torrents they don't have
[21:16:26] <The_8472> many of them
[21:16:35] <scottwolchok> good deal
[21:17:14] <scottwolchok> I guess I'd better start revising the paper so I don't have to send it over IRC in 3-line snippets
[21:17:58] <The_8472> hehe, yeah... mine is just half-finished too. need to add citiations and some random pictures here and there ^^
[21:20:43] <scottwolchok> oh, I just have to fix issues that were brought up in reviews and proofread
[21:21:10] <scottwolchok> what uni are you at? I doubt that you'll be listed in the author list as The_8472 :P
[21:21:12] <The_8472> <scottwolchok> well, the mainline design would be: 1) run crawl 2) extract peer lists <- uhm. you can't enumerate infohashes stored in a node in mainline
[21:21:31] <The_8472> University of Applied Sciences Esslingen
[21:22:18] <scottwolchok> The_8472: incoming stores are (infohash, peer)
[21:22:45] <The_8472> yeah, but that means you need near-complete coverage of the keyspace
[21:23:11] <scottwolchok> last I heard, mainline stores weren't very accurate
[21:23:18] <scottwolchok> s/stores/routing
[21:23:22] <The_8472> that's true
[21:23:58] <burris> it probably wouldn't take that many nodes to get usuable coverage
[21:24:15] <scottwolchok> we cover vuze with around 10k IIRC
[21:24:35] <scottwolchok> er, no, that's totally wrong
[21:27:26] <scottwolchok> near-total Vuze coverage took us well over 100k
[21:28:01] <scottwolchok> but it could be done with less -- we allocated node IDs randomly instead of trying to pick them for coverage
[21:28:46] <The_8472> yeah, i'm doing with 64 nodes ^^
[21:29:33] <scottwolchok> our cost per node is through the floor though because they run in a single process, written in C, blah blah blah
[21:29:34] <The_8472> complete indexing from scratch would take a month or two like that. but that's not necessary since you can get a chunk of already existing torrents from indexing sites
[21:30:00] <scottwolchok> ah, our selling point is that you could use this to recover from, say, every major torrent site being sued into oblivion simultaneously
[21:30:33] <scottwolchok> admittedly unlikely, but they do have this tendency to get sued
[21:30:39] * The_8472 nods
[21:31:25] <The_8472> although if you know the right people you can easily get a nice database dump. that helps a lot
[23:03:45] *** flutra has joined #bittorrent
[23:15:04] *** flutra has quit IRC
[23:21:11] *** flutra has joined #bittorrent
[23:25:36] * The_8472 hates papers not specificing a date
[23:40:33] <scottwolchok> google scholar?
[23:41:35] <The_8472> i simply looked at another paper citing the kademlia paper ^^
[23:41:44] <scottwolchok> that'll do it
[23:41:49] <scottwolchok> also, beware of ACM citeseer
[23:41:54] <scottwolchok> I have been informed that it is often wrong
[23:42:09] <scottwolchok> well, at least beware of their BiBTeX
[23:42:16] <The_8472> k, thx

   June 26, 2010  
< | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | >