June 11, 2010 
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June 11, 2010 NOTICE: This channel is no longer actively logged.
[00:07:37] *** cyb2063 has quit IRC[00:09:51] <The_8472> sjuxax, why should we help you in violating privacy?[00:11:21] <The_8472> would you want people rummaging through your computer and reporting it to your mother?[00:11:29] <sjuxax> Because it's important to know what children are doing on your internet connection?[00:11:36] <The_8472> ask them?[00:12:09] <sjuxax> The kid doesn't even know we know he has a computer. This person is like 14, he isn't some independent adult-person[00:12:17] <The_8472> at the very least tell them that they're being watched. just like there are "this shop is under surveillance" signs in shops with cameras for a reason...[00:12:42] * The_8472 shrugs. still surveillance without consent.[00:13:22] <The_8472> and afaik being 14 grants you at least some freedoms[00:15:28] <sjuxax> It doesn't grant you freedom from parental supervision[00:15:45] <sjuxax> Minority exists for a reason, which reason is that children don't understand the implications of their actions[00:15:51] <scottwolchok> I think the appropriate thing to fret about is wiretap laws[00:16:06] <scottwolchok> or at least AN appropriate thing to fret about[00:16:36] <sjuxax> The legal consequences are sufficient cause to monitor BT traffic by a kid whose already snuck a computer onto the premises.[00:16:51] <The_8472> anyway, the right thing to do is asking him to let you inspect his computer, in his presence. going behinds someone's back is never the right thing to do[00:17:21] <sjuxax> So he can say, "Don't go there"?[00:17:35] <The_8472> if it were really about legal concerns you could just block his connection[00:17:39] <sjuxax> I agree generally, but there is a difference in parental jurisdiction and authority[00:17:43] <The_8472> so obviously it isn't, you're just snooping[00:17:46] <sjuxax> I already have just blocked his connection[00:17:55] <sjuxax> I'm trying to see what has already been done[00:18:11] <The_8472> well good for you[00:18:13] <sjuxax> thanks[00:18:15] <The_8472> i'm not going to help with that[00:18:21] <sjuxax> all good, got it already[00:18:36] <scottwolchok> eh, it's not entirely unreasonable to wonder whether your 14-year-old kid has been torrenting porn[00:18:45] <The_8472> he most likely has been[00:19:04] <The_8472> on average most kids in developed countries have their first contact with porn around the age of 11[00:19:13] <mpl> after all that's what the internet is for.[00:20:26] <The_8472> anyone who assumes otherwise would be fooling themselves ^^[00:21:59] <alus> yes, I think he just took a technologically sophisticated look at whether his brother-in-law has a penis[00:22:53] <The_8472> hehehehe[00:27:31] <sjuxax> well incidentally so far it's all been really crappy pop music[00:28:13] *** TheSHAD0W has quit IRC[00:28:41] <sjuxax> thanks everyone, bye[00:28:41] *** sjuxax has left #bittorrent[00:30:04] <alus> that sounds like the rest of the internet. "oh no! people might use the internet for child pornography! ... oh wait no, they just use it to pirate music."[00:34:23] * K`Tetch keeps a close eye on his daughter's net usage[00:45:50] <The_8472> why?[00:46:11] <The_8472> you think she'd visit anything bad while you're watching?[00:46:18] <andar> to be sure she's not chatting it up with creepy guys on irc[00:46:38] <The_8472> pfft, nobody could ever proove anything...[00:46:51] <andar> she said was 18![00:46:58] <andar> +she[00:48:53] *** TheSHAD0W has joined #bittorrent[00:50:13] <K`Tetch> yes that stuff[00:50:18] <K`Tetch> shes a naive 13[00:50:36] <Andrius> K`Tetch, it must suck to have parents who actually have a clue about the internet[00:51:04] <K`Tetch> you know whats worse?[00:51:22] <K`Tetch> hher managing to get any time[00:51:33] <K`Tetch> all the computers are always in use by me or the wife[00:53:20] <K`Tetch> using 3 pcs at once is how i prefer to work[00:53:35] <The_8472> hahaha[00:56:51] <mpl> until she gets an iphone like any kid nowadays.[00:57:16] <K`Tetch> my wife wants one, but my wife isn't getting one[00:57:26] <K`Tetch> not that there'd be much point, there's ZERO gsm coverage here[00:57:37] <mpl> heh.[00:57:41] <K`Tetch> my AT+T DSL tech has a verizon phone[00:58:00] <K`Tetch> she wants a cellphone, aint going to happen any time soon[00:58:07] <K`Tetch> can't afford $1000 bills[01:01:52] <The_8472> flatrate, go![01:02:46] <K`Tetch> this is the us....[01:02:52] <K`Tetch> they think SMs is new and trendy[01:05:21] <Andrius> :D[01:08:05] <The_8472> "Sprint customers can get unlimited mobile-to-mobile calling, unlimited SMS and MMS, and unlimited data for $69.99. "[01:08:12] <The_8472> looks like flatrates exist even in the US[01:08:26] <mpl> hmm, so at the point where I was expecting rtorrent to send its bitfield, I receive that:[01:08:29] <mpl> Fd1:ei1e1:md6:ut_pexi0ee1:pi6977e4:reqqi2048e1:v17:libTorrent 0.11.9e[01:08:44] <The_8472> that's the extended messaging handshake[01:08:57] <The_8472> apparently you've set the bit for that in the reserved bitfield[01:08:58] <Andrius> The_8472, how much is "unlimited"?[01:09:08] <The_8472> Andrius, don't ask me[01:09:44] <mpl> The_8472: not on purpose though ;) thx, I'll look that up.[01:18:14] <K`Tetch> and that will be unlimited sprint-sprint mobile[01:18:46] <K`Tetch> I have unlimited verizon-verizon, plus free nights+weekends, and 250sms/mms, for $20 on top of my wifes package[01:20:02] <alus> on top of your wifes package, huh[01:22:17] <The_8472> that's what he said![01:22:23] <K`Tetch> hers is $60[01:22:38] <alus> same as in town[01:24:35] *** Andrius has quit IRC[01:25:01] <mpl> it's funny how I had forgotten to zero the reserved bits. random breakage ftw.[01:25:29] <The_8472> what are you coding?[01:25:48] <mpl> a bt client. for plan 9.[01:25:53] <The_8472> lol[01:26:17] <mpl> what's so funny about that?[01:26:25] <alus> the plan 9 part[01:26:26] <andar> seriously?[01:26:46] <mpl> yeah, why not.[01:27:00] <alus> indeed[01:28:23] <mpl> it's ugly, but I think I'm finally getting there.[01:28:37] <The_8472> <mpl> yeah, why not. <- FOR SCIENCE![01:29:15] <mpl> The_8472: well, science, for fun, and also because there's none on this platform so far.[01:29:28] <mpl> well there's one in limbo to be honest.[01:29:30] <The_8472> nonono[01:29:38] <The_8472> FOR SCIENCE. not for science.[01:30:02] <mpl> I don't get the reference/joke, sorry.[01:31:16] <The_8472> http://wearscience.com/[01:31:19] <The_8472> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForScience[01:33:19] <mpl> hehe, ok.[03:15:08] *** init0 has quit IRC[03:17:55] *** init0 has joined #bittorrent[04:04:09] *** The_8472 has quit IRC[04:07:34] *** The_8472 has joined #bittorrent[05:59:27] *** goussx has quit IRC[06:20:18] *** `rafi_ has joined #bittorrent[06:27:51] *** MassaRoddel has quit IRC[06:28:41] *** edigaryev has joined #bittorrent[06:33:52] *** goussx has joined #bittorrent[07:18:24] *** MassaRoddel has joined #bittorrent[07:40:37] *** lotrpy has joined #bittorrent[07:44:26] *** Switeck has joined #bittorrent[08:07:43] *** ygrek has joined #bittorrent[08:38:19] *** tris has quit IRC[08:40:52] *** ygrek has quit IRC[08:59:50] *** DWKnight has quit IRC[09:13:04] *** Kitsoran has quit IRC[09:32:29] *** DWKnight has joined #bittorrent[09:36:01] *** Andrius has joined #bittorrent[10:49:01] *** [diablo] has quit IRC[10:49:34] *** `rafi_ has quit IRC[10:49:43] *** `rafi_ has joined #bittorrent[10:50:12] *** lotrpy has quit IRC[11:46:00] *** Waldorf has joined #bittorrent[11:46:54] <Waldorf> Quick question: is "Local Peer Discovery" the same as "Zeroconf Peer Advertising and Discovery" (BEP 26)?[11:52:57] <alus> Waldorf: no[11:53:07] <alus> LPD does not use Zeroconf[11:53:17] <Waldorf> ah. thx[11:53:36] <Waldorf> though, I seem to be out of the loop lately... how does it work?[11:54:12] <alus> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Peer_Discovery[11:54:40] <alus> http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?pid=433785#p433785[11:55:39] <Waldorf> the "no formal specification had been created" was the part i was looking for[11:55:53] <alus> you could submit one :)[11:56:16] <Waldorf> lol, I'm just translating ;-)[11:56:25] <Waldorf> (right now)[11:56:50] <Waldorf> but it would work like the Zeroconf idea?[11:58:29] <Waldorf> like, finding peers on huge LAN networks? such as often used in Italy (Rome) and universities? (with blocked, and inaccessible, ports on the router side)[12:00:58] <alus> I don't know if Zeroconf would even work in a "huge" LAN.[12:01:13] <Waldorf> (or, as one suggest, distributing trackerless files on a LAN party?)[12:01:26] <Waldorf> hmm, me neither, but that was the requested usecase[12:01:37] <alus> well it depends what huge means[12:01:48] <alus> but probably, LPD will work in all the cases Zeroconf would work[12:02:04] <Waldorf> a city, with fibergless, but isolated from the web by a LAN connection ;-)[12:02:20] <Waldorf> *fiberglass[12:02:46] <alus> if you are the network admin, consider BEP22. otherwise, yeah the DHT should maybe work[12:02:50] <Waldorf> there seem to be an increasing number of ISPs (in eastern europe) who can't buy new ip adresses[12:04:27] <Waldorf> ah, but BEP22 uses zeroconf for tracker discovery? is it implemented in a client?[12:05:02] <Waldorf> alus: no, I'm just curious...[12:05:07] <alus> BEP22 does not use Zeroconf[12:05:18] <alus> no BT client I know of actually uses Zeroconf[12:05:20] <alus> for anything[12:05:23] <alus> BEP22 uses DNS[12:05:37] <alus> and as far as I know it is only implemented in uT[12:06:49] <Waldorf> alus: thx for the info![12:07:19] <Waldorf> as always, you're very informative ;-)[12:19:58] <Waldorf> alus: you wouldn't be able to tell me how LPD is translated into dutch, by any chance? (assuming uTorrent has localizations)[12:24:55] <alus> muh[12:25:07] <alus> download uT, install dutch translation, read :P[12:25:39] <alus> I have never seen the dutch translation, and the file is on the server anyway[12:30:02] <Waldorf> yea, well, not interested in downloading the win version atm, I'm on a mac :p[12:30:49] <Waldorf> alus: btw, don't you guys need translators for the mac version? ;-)[12:31:48] <alus> yes. you can apply on the forums somewhere[12:31:51] <alus> Firon knows how it works[12:32:22] <Waldorf> since I've been doin' Transmission for a while now...[12:40:28] *** IRConan has quit IRC[12:40:30] *** IRConan has joined #bittorrent[12:40:30] *** IRConan has joined #bittorrent[12:41:14] *** IRConan has quit IRC[12:41:19] *** IRConan has joined #bittorrent[12:48:32] *** jonasl has quit IRC[13:17:43] *** ygrek has joined #bittorrent[13:43:46] *** ygrek has quit IRC[14:07:30] *** [diablo] has joined #bittorrent[15:56:51] *** HyperHorse_ has joined #bittorrent[15:57:06] <HyperHorse_> anyone here?[15:57:26] <Switeck> yes[15:57:38] <HyperHorse_> im having speed issues with bit tornado[15:57:49] <Switeck> ok[15:58:11] <HyperHorse_> that i wasnt having with uTorrent[15:58:27] <HyperHorse_> but i had to stop using uTorrent because of some weirdness[15:58:41] <Switeck> what weirdness? O.o[15:58:49] <HyperHorse_> 2nd instance of utorrent running[15:59:02] <Switeck> (the "weirdness" could be causing BitTornado problems too is why I asked)[15:59:07] <HyperHorse_> one torrent would always say it cant be downloaded due to being used by another program[15:59:18] <Switeck> uTorrent is slow to shut down if you have a lot of torrents loaded[15:59:28] <charles> Waldorf: traitor! :)[15:59:40] <Waldorf> LOL[15:59:42] <HyperHorse_> actually it wasnt.[15:59:56] <Waldorf> no no! I just /stole/ their translation![16:00:04] <Waldorf> :P[16:00:09] <HyperHorse_> lol[16:00:38] <Switeck> antivirus software and file indexers can lock files[16:00:51] <charles> oh, reading that while drinking a soda was a /bad/ idea :)[16:01:11] <HyperHorse_> im using eset smart security[16:01:16] <Switeck> I'm sorry[16:01:34] <Switeck> that could be causing the problem with file locking[16:01:47] <HyperHorse_> i hope that soda doesnt contain artificial sweetners[16:01:58] <HyperHorse_> but it wasnt causing problems with eset[16:02:02] <HyperHorse_> when i had utorrent[16:02:13] <HyperHorse_> its got to be some firewall issue[16:02:16] <HyperHorse_> or port forwarding[16:02:24] <Switeck> is eset configured to scan the folders you're using?[16:02:33] <Switeck> is eset's firewall disabled/removed?[16:02:49] <Switeck> If BitTornado gets the green light, it probably is ok.[16:04:43] <HyperHorse_> its on yellow[16:06:20] <HyperHorse_> ok ive disabled the firewall[16:06:55] <HyperHorse_> nothing changed[16:07:11] <HyperHorse_> so ive turned it back on[16:09:48] <Switeck> disabled usually means always blocks[16:09:56] <HyperHorse_> NO[16:09:59] <Switeck> unless it's the windows firewall[16:10:02] <HyperHorse_> i disabled filtering[16:10:18] <Switeck> filtering of what?[16:10:23] <HyperHorse_> traffic[16:10:25] <Switeck> in what?[16:10:28] <HyperHorse_> eset[16:10:36] * HyperHorse_ slaps Switeck[16:10:47] <Switeck> so what's your ip path to the internet?[16:10:55] <Switeck> computer's ip, router ip, modem ip?[16:11:06] <HyperHorse_> lol why do i need to give u that?[16:11:08] <Switeck> I'm hoping you don't have a modem that's also a router[16:11:19] <Switeck> cuz I don't know shit about your network[16:11:24] <HyperHorse_> yes it is a router[16:11:28] <HyperHorse_> its a 4 port[16:11:29] <Switeck> but that's the leading cause of being firewalled[16:11:39] <HyperHorse_> im the only person using it[16:12:02] <Switeck> So you have a modem-router, but no separate router as well?[16:12:07] <HyperHorse_> no.[16:12:31] <Switeck> ok[16:12:36] <HyperHorse_> that would make things really messy.[16:13:05] <Switeck> You've got a direct Ethernet cable between your computer and modem-router then.[16:13:25] <HyperHorse_> very good.[16:13:31] <Switeck> I hate having to guess[16:13:38] <HyperHorse_> lol sorry[16:13:53] <Switeck> I can lead you down all kinds of wrong troubleshooting paths if I don't know[16:14:05] * HyperHorse_ sensually strokes Switeck[16:14:11] <Switeck> Does the modem-router have DHCP disabled on the LAN side?[16:14:22] <Switeck> (some paths lead to the dark side XD )[16:14:24] <HyperHorse_> i dont think so[16:14:41] <HyperHorse_> i can check if u want[16:14:53] <Switeck> you need to go into router settings anyway, so yes[16:15:25] <Switeck> If you're using manual port forwarding, the computer's LAN ip address needs to be outside the router's DHCP LAN ip range[16:17:04] <Switeck> UPnP (and NAT-PMP if available) should not be needed and may even conflict with manual port forwarding.[16:17:26] <Switeck> disabling them if they're in BitTornado may help[16:17:50] <HyperHorse_> that'd be in the NAT table?[16:18:09] <HyperHorse_> i deleted all entries that i had in the nat table[16:18:11] <Switeck> possibly[16:19:59] <HyperHorse_> looking at portforwarding.com now[16:25:54] <HyperHorse_> nearly finished with the directions[16:26:04] <HyperHorse_> doesnt say what i should put in as the IP address[16:26:39] <Switeck> that depends on how you set the computer's LAN ip[16:26:47] <HyperHorse_> .......... right[16:26:48] <Switeck> which you don't do from the router's configuration pages[16:27:08] <HyperHorse_> so whatever the modem's IP is?[16:27:48] <HyperHorse_> i believe my IP is static[16:28:57] <Switeck> no[16:29:06] <Switeck> the modem's ip is something *ELSE*[16:29:27] <Switeck> if you have to guess, your computer's LAN ip is NOT static[16:30:17] <HyperHorse_> nice.[16:30:24] <HyperHorse_> why cant u give me a straight answer?[16:30:49] <HyperHorse_> so that'd be my IPv4 address?[16:31:17] <HyperHorse_> im running 64 bit windows 7, if that helps :-D[16:33:46] <Switeck> how can a yes or no response be anything less than a straight answer?[16:33:52] <Switeck> ><![16:34:08] <Switeck> Your computer has multiple ip addresses[16:34:22] <HyperHorse_> im aware of this simple premise.[16:34:23] <Switeck> the modem also sees multiple ip addresses and can be "called" by at least 2 as well[16:34:58] <Switeck> Windows networking, right-click on network adapter, properties, TCP/IP IPv4[16:35:07] <Switeck> or something like that :P[16:35:16] <Switeck> If you don't know your way around there, just give up[16:35:30] <Switeck> I don't have Win 7[16:35:34] <HyperHorse_> ive just ran ip config in a command prompt window[16:35:40] <Switeck> ok[16:35:42] <HyperHorse_> hence my question[16:35:53] <Switeck> so tell me[16:35:55] <Switeck> what's your ip[16:37:34] <Switeck> 124.168.130.201 sound about right?[16:37:38] <HyperHorse_> 192.168.1.100[16:37:47] <HyperHorse_> that'd be my external IP[16:37:52] <HyperHorse_> what i said is my internal[16:38:03] <Switeck> yes, that's probably your WAN/external/internet ip[16:38:12] <Switeck> the 192.168.1.100 should be your computer's LAN ip[16:38:21] <Switeck> (or at least that network adapter's)[16:38:42] <HyperHorse_> so thats what i should put in the NAT entry?[16:38:57] <HyperHorse_> my LAN ip or my WAN?[16:39:13] <Switeck> LAN ip, however is that a fixed LAN ip?[16:39:30] <Switeck> just because it doesn't change (often), doesn't guarantee it is...[16:41:31] <Switeck> portforward.com probably has somewhere that shows how to set a static LAN ip for Win 7 64bit[16:44:57] *** HyperHorse_ has quit IRC[16:45:30] *** HyperHorse has joined #bittorrent[16:46:03] <HyperHorse> ok im back[16:49:38] <Switeck> what step/s you on now?[16:49:52] <Switeck> got router forwarded and computer LAN ip set?[16:49:55] <HyperHorse> im on the done stage.[16:50:08] <HyperHorse> w00t[16:50:14] <HyperHorse> speed increase for bit tornado[16:50:17] <Switeck> green light in BitTornado?[16:50:19] * HyperHorse cheers[16:50:34] <HyperHorse> 2 have gone red[16:50:40] <HyperHorse> 1 is still yellow[16:50:42] <Switeck> that's...not so go[16:50:44] <HyperHorse> but the speed is up[16:51:10] <Switeck> Did you disable DHT in BitTornado? (I think it has that...)[16:51:39] <HyperHorse> pity bit tornado opens a diff window for each torrent[16:51:42] <Switeck> many modem-routers are a bit weak for UDP-based DHT traffic.[16:51:54] <Switeck> yes, BitTornado is terrible that way[16:51:57] <HyperHorse> i have a tp link td8840[16:52:01] <Switeck> each torrent fights for bandwidth[16:52:15] <Switeck> and you can't just have them share as needed[16:52:26] <HyperHorse> lol i got a 20megabit downlink to fight with[16:52:39] <Switeck> it's the upload side that's the issue[16:52:53] <Switeck> BitTorrent lives, breathes, and DIES by how well it can upload.[16:53:11] <Switeck> and if you're on ADSL, chances are your upload is between 0.5 and 1 megabit/sec[16:53:23] <HyperHorse> its at 1[16:53:37] <Switeck> which means about 100-120 KiloBYTES/second[16:54:16] <Switeck> If BitTornado is getting red and yellow lights only, it's almost certainly still firewalled.[16:54:30] <HyperHorse> *sigh*[16:54:43] <Switeck> If you've ruled out the modem-router, that leaves either (hostile?) software on your computer or your ISP is messing with you.[16:55:42] <HyperHorse> mmmmmmmmmm[16:55:50] <HyperHorse> i think ill just have to rebuild win7[16:55:59] <HyperHorse> and do a full scan in safe mode with eset[16:56:03] <HyperHorse> and hope i find something[16:56:13] <HyperHorse> cause i suspect i maybe have a trojan[16:56:18] <HyperHorse> because of that issue with utorrent[16:56:42] <HyperHorse> either i find something or im paranoid.[16:56:49] <Switeck> get process explorer, TCP View, and HijackThis[16:57:05] <HyperHorse> i have process explorer[16:57:09] <Switeck> Process Explorer and TCP View are both from the same company...[16:57:26] <Switeck> ok, run process explorer, check the DLL list under utorrent.exe[16:57:36] <Switeck> anything NON-Microsoft listed there needs to be checked[16:57:36] <HyperHorse> im not running it now.[16:57:40] <HyperHorse> lol[16:57:53] <Switeck> check it for bittornado then[16:58:20] <Switeck> (I do expect something related to python for BitTornado...)[16:58:59] <HyperHorse> which tab would i find the dll list?[16:59:02] <HyperHorse> threads?[16:59:26] <Switeck> CTRL+D normally[16:59:48] <Switeck> bottom window should list DLLs there[16:59:56] <HyperHorse> i see it[17:00:25] <Switeck> sort them by company or filename and see if there's any non-microsoft ones listed there.[17:00:33] <HyperHorse> a few dont have a description[17:00:35] <Switeck> any of those you find are google-worthy material[17:02:18] <HyperHorse> ok, so i have some dlls that have no descriptions[17:02:28] <HyperHorse> and i google them. so what?[17:03:29] <HyperHorse> that wont most of the time give me anything that's relevant to me[17:03:35] <Switeck> if you're wondering if they're something good/bad/indifferent[17:03:48] <HyperHorse> i could just kill them :P[17:03:48] <Switeck> google is your tool to find out[17:03:56] <Switeck> yes, but maybe only once XD[17:04:32] <HyperHorse> all these dll files are bit tornado files[17:04:52] <Switeck> ok, then probably part of BitTornado...and not the cause[17:05:20] <Switeck> so there's nothing but Microsoft and BitTornado stuff?[17:05:28] <Switeck> (I find that quite odd...)[17:05:42] <Switeck> rather expected eset would be in that list[17:07:03] <HyperHorse> meh, im out[17:07:07] <HyperHorse> thanks for the help[17:07:13] *** HyperHorse has quit IRC[17:26:10] *** ajaya has joined #bittorrent[17:34:56] *** Switeck has quit IRC[17:53:22] *** Kitsoran has joined #bittorrent[17:58:43] *** goussx_ has joined #bittorrent[18:02:55] *** goussx_ has quit IRC[18:03:09] *** goussx has quit IRC[18:08:08] *** Waldorf has quit IRC[18:36:36] *** goussx has joined #bittorrent[18:37:18] *** goussx_ has joined #bittorrent[18:37:19] *** goussx_ has joined #bittorrent[18:37:19] *** goussx has quit IRC[18:37:19] *** goussx_ is now known as goussx[19:45:23] *** NoodleDragon has joined #bittorrent[19:45:23] *** Kitsoran has quit IRC[19:45:26] *** NoodleDragon is now known as Kitsoran[20:07:02] *** tris has joined #bittorrent[20:13:18] *** tris has quit IRC[20:16:01] *** tris has joined #bittorrent[21:14:01] *** Andrius has quit IRC[21:20:43] *** edigaryev has quit IRC[21:25:14] *** Andrius has joined #bittorrent[21:46:16] *** Andrius has quit IRC[22:03:07] *** Andrius has joined #bittorrent[22:22:30] *** Waldorf has joined #bittorrent[23:06:11] *** WhatMan has quit IRC[23:23:03] *** ProperNoun has quit IRC[23:24:29] *** [diablo] has quit IRC[23:25:17] *** MassaRoddel has quit IRC[23:26:34] *** `rafi_ has quit IRC[23:30:46] *** btcod2 has joined #bittorrent[23:31:45] <btcod2> dear all, please, are there statistics on the fraction of peers using lazy bittfield?[23:35:10] <The_8472> it is or was on by default in several of the major clients[23:35:54] <The_8472> i doubt anyone gathers explicit statistics on that topic[23:36:04] <btcod2> i see...[23:36:16] <btcod2> because i am trying to estimate the number of seeds[23:36:22] <The_8472> uhm[23:36:28] <The_8472> ask the tracker?[23:36:52] <btcod2> if the peer uses lazy bitfield he still announces as seed to the tracker?[23:36:55] <The_8472> or just wait until they've sent the HAVEs that follow the lazy bitfield[23:37:01] <The_8472> yes[23:37:08] <btcod2> i see[23:37:24] <btcod2> and querying the tracker can i learn about all peers?[23:37:26] <The_8472> lazy bitfield gets filled with HAVEs shortly after it has been sent[23:38:11] <The_8472> the tracker gives you a seed/peer count in addition to a subset of seeds/peers. PEX usually provides a wider view of the swarm and includes seed information[23:38:24] <btcod2> i see[23:38:38] <btcod2> so, using PEX, i 'll have a wider view[23:38:46] <btcod2> but it will always be a sample, right?[23:39:06] <The_8472> depends on the swarm size, but yes, you cannot assume that it's always exhaustive[23:39:23] <btcod2> i see[23:39:42] <The_8472> a seed's PEX set will also mostly contain peers, not seeds.[23:40:02] <The_8472> a peer's PEX set on the other hand may reflect the seed:peer distribution in the swarm more accurately[23:40:14] <btcod2> interesting[23:40:27] <The_8472> with a bit of crawling you should be able to get a near-exhaustive view of the swarm though[23:40:42] <btcod2> so, based on one particular peer PEX we might estimate the seed:peer distribution of he whole swarm?[23:40:51] <The_8472> yes[23:41:02] <The_8472> or a handful of peers, to average things out[23:41:09] <btcod2> interesting.[23:41:33] <btcod2> so, i would need to estimate the number of peers as well as the seed:peer ratio[23:41:43] <btcod2> to figure the actual number of seeds[23:42:03] <The_8472> for smaller swarms you can just crawl it based on PEX[23:42:50] <The_8472> connect to a bunch of seeds/peers. get PEX, drop connections, connect to PEXed seeds/peers, rinse, repeat[23:43:18] <btcod2> i see[23:44:03] <btcod2> maybe it's possible to estimate based on a few samples[23:44:19] <btcod2> using a linear filter or something alike[23:44:31] <The_8472> possibly, considering you should get deminishing returns in new peers from PEX[23:45:17] <btcod2> deminishing returns => random peers? or same fractions of seeds:peers?[23:45:29] <btcod2> random = redundant[23:45:46] <The_8472> yes[23:45:49] <The_8472> redundant[23:45:55] <btcod2> i see[23:46:47] <The_8472> you might even be able to estimate the swarm size based on the overlap between pex sets[23:47:10] <The_8472> for small swarms they're almost identical, for large swarms they're mostly disjoint[23:47:17] <btcod2> very interesting[23:47:22] <The_8472> nah[23:47:26] <The_8472> basic graph theory[23:47:34] <btcod2> =)[23:48:22] <The_8472> of course this is just theoretical, there's a lot of noise in the real world[23:48:55] <btcod2> such as?[23:49:09] <alus> garbage trucks[23:50:32] <The_8472> potential clustering in the swarm's graph, NATed peers, the number of edges per vertex isn't constant, seeds don't connect to seeds etc. etc.[23:51:12] <The_8472> so an exhaustive crawl through the swarm + something to account for NATed nodes probably would be more accurate[23:51:23] <The_8472> if you want precise numbers[23:51:28] <btcod2> i see[23:51:40] <The_8472> and that only works for torrents not marked as private[23:52:03] <btcod2> NATed nodes dont contribute right?[23:52:08] <The_8472> they do[23:52:33] <btcod2> so, why dont they reply to PEX?[23:52:40] <The_8472> they do[23:52:59] <The_8472> you just can't connect to them[23:53:19] <btcod2> i see[23:53:31] <btcod2> peer A can report on a PEXed peer B[23:53:47] <btcod2> (peer B is NATed)[23:54:00] <The_8472> yes, but you cannot verify B's existence directly[23:54:09] <btcod2> i see