June 6, 2018 
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June 6, 2018 [00:00:56] <dyl> Well[00:01:09] <dyl> Looks like Apple is deprecating OpenGL/CL.[00:01:21] <dyl> Prepare for the influx of MoltenVK users![00:01:29] *** Kingsqueee <Kingsqueee!~kingsquee@d66-183-127-35.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[00:06:36] *** bpmedley <bpmedley!~bpm@c-24-72-144-115.ni.gigamonster.net> has joined ##vulkan[00:30:46] *** ciaala <ciaala!~crypt@2a02:120b:2c1f:4960:6ef0:49ff:feee:4777> has joined ##vulkan[00:31:18] *** james_ <james_!~james@static-96-43-65-242.albyny.csvoip.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[00:45:07] *** ector <ector!~asdf@ua-85-224-236-175.bbcust.telenor.se> has quit IRC ()[00:47:05] *** sla_ro|master <sla_ro|master!~sla.ro@78.96.209.89> has quit IRC ()[00:47:31] *** halbeno__ <halbeno__!~halbeno@S0106ac202ecc7933.ed.shawcable.net> has joined ##vulkan[00:50:10] *** halbeno_ <halbeno_!~halbeno@S0106ac202ecc7933.ed.shawcable.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)[01:41:43] *** cramalho <cramalho!~cramalho@2804:54:16f5:8200:bd67:9a34:7fbd:ea22> has joined ##vulkan[01:48:10] *** derhass <derhass!~derhass@ipservice-092-216-121-149.092.216.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[01:55:46] *** slime <slime!~slime73@blk-215-81-93.eastlink.ca> has joined ##vulkan[02:14:09] *** halbeno__ <halbeno__!~halbeno@S0106ac202ecc7933.ed.shawcable.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[02:19:09] *** MrFlibble <MrFlibble!MrFlibble@2.122.47.217> has left ##vulkan[02:26:09] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d66-183-127-35.bchsia.telus.net> has joined ##vulkan[02:28:48] *** glisse_ <glisse_!glisse@nat/redhat/x-jgthhtwawwonhjxt> has joined ##vulkan[02:32:35] *** glisse <glisse!glisse@nat/redhat/x-loohmsqopjfmcnlf> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[02:33:58] *** bpmedley <bpmedley!~bpm@c-24-72-144-115.ni.gigamonster.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)[02:38:33] *** bpmedley <bpmedley!~bpm@c-24-72-144-115.ni.gigamonster.net> has joined ##vulkan[02:42:12] *** glisse <glisse!glisse@nat/redhat/x-onvkjbjpyqcaenoi> has joined ##vulkan[02:44:34] *** ciaala <ciaala!~crypt@2a02:120b:2c1f:4960:6ef0:49ff:feee:4777> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[02:44:41] *** glisse_ <glisse_!glisse@nat/redhat/x-jgthhtwawwonhjxt> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[02:46:07] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-157-70-142.range86-157.btcentralplus.com> has joined ##vulkan[03:02:43] *** xaxazak <xaxazak!~xaxazak@125-238-194-79-fibre.bb.spark.co.nz> has joined ##vulkan[03:07:20] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d66-183-127-35.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[03:07:59] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d66-183-127-35.bchsia.telus.net> has joined ##vulkan[03:12:00] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d66-183-127-35.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[03:12:43] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d66-183-127-35.bchsia.telus.net> has joined ##vulkan[03:13:31] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!~ratchetfr@ptr-82s3g7nwo55b2ai93yt.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[03:18:51] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d66-183-127-35.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[03:19:14] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d66-183-127-35.bchsia.telus.net> has joined ##vulkan[03:22:21] *** cheakoirccloud <cheakoirccloud!uid293319@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dzopinvgtfuioorv> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[03:26:15] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d66-183-127-35.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[03:26:52] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d66-183-127-35.bchsia.telus.net> has joined ##vulkan[03:27:11] *** Kingsquee <Kingsquee!~kingsquee@d66-183-127-35.bchsia.telus.net> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[03:43:12] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-157-70-142.range86-157.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[03:50:09] *** jdashg <jdashg!~jdashg@corp-nat.fw1.untrust.mtv2.mozilla.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)[04:22:03] *** Pseudocrat <Pseudocrat!~quassel@unaffiliated/pseudocrat> has joined ##vulkan[04:33:27] *** halbeno <halbeno!~halbeno@S0106ac202ecc7933.ed.shawcable.net> has joined ##vulkan[04:46:55] *** ciaala <ciaala!~crypt@2a02:120b:2c1f:4960:6ef0:49ff:feee:4777> has joined ##vulkan[05:16:07] *** mandeep_ <mandeep_!~mandeep@2602:30a:2e3f:dd30:9d5e:72ce:30ad:6755> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[05:19:57] *** xaxazak <xaxazak!~xaxazak@125-238-194-79-fibre.bb.spark.co.nz> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[05:25:28] *** mandeep <mandeep!mandeep@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/mandeepb> has joined ##vulkan[05:39:24] *** Pseudocrat <Pseudocrat!~quassel@unaffiliated/pseudocrat> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[05:58:51] *** slime <slime!~slime73@blk-215-81-93.eastlink.ca> has quit IRC (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)[06:09:38] *** xaxazak <xaxazak!~xaxazak@125-238-194-79-fibre.bb.spark.co.nz> has joined ##vulkan[06:13:46] <xaxazak> Writing a basic UI widget set. All descriptors used by all widgets is currently 6 combined image shaders (tex arrays, different formats), 2 UBOs, 1 SBO. Is there any significant downside to making all UI pipelines share a layout that holds the max set of descriptors, even if they use none? compared to updating descriptor sets lots?[06:26:20] *** xissburg <xissburg!~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg> has quit IRC (Quit: ZZZzzz…)[07:08:21] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@unaffiliated/goiko> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[07:08:55] *** goiko_ <goiko_!~goiko@p5DEB7955.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[07:26:04] *** jbrett <jbrett!~jbrett@162.213.216.140> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[07:26:12] *** cramalho <cramalho!~cramalho@2804:54:16f5:8200:bd67:9a34:7fbd:ea22> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[07:26:35] *** jbrett <jbrett!~jbrett@162.213.216.140> has joined ##vulkan[07:26:40] *** cramalho <cramalho!~cramalho@2804:54:16f5:8200:bd67:9a34:7fbd:ea22> has joined ##vulkan[07:40:28] *** daxar3 <daxar3!~daxar@194-96-57-172.adsl.highway.telekom.at> has joined ##vulkan[07:43:19] *** daxar2 <daxar2!~daxar@193-83-49-218.adsl.highway.telekom.at> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[07:44:31] *** cramalho <cramalho!~cramalho@2804:54:16f5:8200:bd67:9a34:7fbd:ea22> has quit IRC (Quit: cramalho)[07:46:08] *** nsf <nsf!~nsf@jiss.convex.ru> has joined ##vulkan[07:46:27] *** mauz555 <mauz555!~mauz555@cpe-142-129-115-205.socal.res.rr.com> has joined ##vulkan[07:59:08] *** Deluxe <Deluxe!~Deluxe@212.4.150.151> has joined ##vulkan[08:03:31] *** Deluxe <Deluxe!~Deluxe@212.4.150.151> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[08:35:08] <Lymia> Queue ownership transfer occurs independently of layout transition, right?[08:35:39] <Lymia> i.e. if the queue family that currently owns an image transitions it from layout A to layout B, the queue that it's being transferred to will already get the image in layout B.[08:36:00] <Lymia> And if the barrier in the second queue tries to transition layout again, it will have to be B->C, and not A->B again.[08:36:09] <Lymia> (Because it's already in B, not A)[08:47:50] <Lymia> okey[08:47:57] <Lymia> I think I found my answer after some serious digging[09:03:58] *** sla_ro|master <sla_ro|master!~sla.ro@78.96.209.89> has joined ##vulkan[09:14:46] *** xaxazak <xaxazak!~xaxazak@125-238-194-79-fibre.bb.spark.co.nz> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[09:17:18] *** ciaala <ciaala!~crypt@2a02:120b:2c1f:4960:6ef0:49ff:feee:4777> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[09:19:41] *** grizwako <grizwako!~grizwako@213.147.101.34> has joined ##vulkan[09:25:57] *** Andrej1 <Andrej1!~Andrej@86.61.110.246> has joined ##vulkan[09:27:27] *** Andrej11 <Andrej11!~Andrej@86.61.49.192> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[09:33:19] *** goiko_ <goiko_!~goiko@p5DEB7955.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Quit: ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿ O'RLY? 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Bye!)[16:07:39] *** neurre <neurre!~tsuoranta@mobile-access-bcee17-78.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined ##vulkan[16:09:29] *** neurrre <neurrre!~tsuoranta@mobile-access-bcee17-78.dhcp.inet.fi> has joined ##vulkan[16:09:39] *** neurre <neurre!~tsuoranta@mobile-access-bcee17-78.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[16:11:05] *** neurre <neurre!~tsuoranta@193.209.96.43> has joined ##vulkan[16:14:30] *** neurrre <neurrre!~tsuoranta@mobile-access-bcee17-78.dhcp.inet.fi> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[16:25:38] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@p5DEB703F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[16:25:38] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@p5DEB703F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Changing host)[16:25:38] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@unaffiliated/goiko> has joined ##vulkan[16:26:51] *** ImQ009 <ImQ009!~ImQ009@unaffiliated/imq009> has joined ##vulkan[16:36:26] *** goiko <goiko!~goiko@unaffiliated/goiko> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)[16:37:11] *** goiko_ <goiko_!~goiko@p57B5DE3A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined ##vulkan[16:58:36] *** HZun <HZun!~HZun@0x3ec72d49.osd.customer.dk.telia.net> has joined ##vulkan[17:00:39] <HZun> what is the purpose of specifying a format for an image if you also need to specify a format for an image view anyway?[17:06:07] <fazias> In Directx world, you can specify the "storage" format and view format can be slightly different[17:07:05] <fazias> basically there you could say that "I have R8B8G8A8 format texture" and then you could decide if you want to view it maybe in "uint" or "float"[17:07:14] *** Deluxe <Deluxe!~Deluxe@2001:67c:1220:80e:e9:1d2:f14f:e47f> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[17:07:35] <fazias> (bad example, but hope it helps understanding the logic behind it)[17:07:53] <HZun> thanks for the help. but i am still not really understanding it.[17:07:56] <fazias> Vulkan didn't really have this at start, but I think they have something by now.[17:08:06] <HZun> i thought that the image layout was the "storage format".[17:08:15] <fazias> Image view is basically "descriptor" for gpu on how to view the memory[17:08:32] <fazias> and then you have the data in some format to begin with[17:08:51] <fazias> that's also part of it :)[17:09:26] <fazias> you don't have identical memory layouts for all formats[17:10:16] <fazias> if you have a texture R8, surely you don't just treat it as R32B32G32A32 since it's the worst case and waste tons of space for the unnecessary bits[17:10:45] *** xaxazak <xaxazak!~xaxazak@125-238-194-79-fibre.bb.spark.co.nz> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)[17:10:47] <fazias> Format affects on how many bits are used per pixel and layout depicts on how its laid in the memory[17:12:33] <HZun> so are the image format and the image view format used together? or independently? and do they need to be compatible with each other?[17:13:16] <fazias> Compatible, but I don't remember this part of vulkan spec that clearly so maybe someone else can verify. Debug layer will also help :).[17:14:16] <HZun> but i still dont understand what the image format is used for. why is it that the image needs a format, coulndt it have been made so that the image did not have a format and only the image view had a format?[17:14:42] <fazias> Well how much memory does a texture then take?[17:14:47] <fazias> if you don't know it's format.[17:14:58] <fazias> what does 100x100 for example mean?[17:15:02] <fazias> or even 1x1[17:15:06] <fazias> (texture sizes)[17:19:03] <HZun> hmmm[17:19:09] <HZun> i still find it confusing :)[17:19:14] <fazias> Since Texture is basically the memory[17:19:31] <fazias> Image view is only a "pointer"[17:19:57] <HZun> why can't the image view just look at the image passed to it, and then just use that format? instead of the format needing to be specified twice?[17:20:36] <fazias> Well, vulkan is low level[17:20:36] <baldurk> because you can change the format if you want, or create multiple views each with a different format[17:20:48] <fazias> don't expect that you can find "format" from a created texture.[17:21:09] <fazias> The implementation probably doesn't want to store the format since it's up to user to have it be correct.[17:21:33] <fazias> Also yeah[17:21:38] <HZun> so the format is for the image itself is only used for size calculations? as an alternative to specifying the size in bytes?[17:21:54] <fazias> As said, it affects the memory layout[17:22:12] <fazias> or well, size of it :D[17:23:05] <fazias> gah, I'm not really good at explaining this.[17:23:38] <HZun> i think its just me who is bad at understanding it :D[17:23:40] <fazias> I breathe this as a daily thing too much, so I guess I find it hard because of it...[17:25:01] <fazias> It doesn't really help, that on one platform that I work on, Texture and TextureView is basically the same thing.[17:25:41] <HZun> why is the image format so "specific" if it is only used for memory calculations? for example, why does it matter if its RGB or BGR?[17:26:25] <HZun> i get why it matters for the image view format (which is used by a shader for example) but i dont get why it matters for the image.[17:26:35] <fazias> That might not matter...[17:26:52] <fazias> as you only need to match the channel count and how many bits is used per channel[17:27:15] <fazias> then you can interpret the value as float or int or so on[17:28:08] <fazias> it would be too restrictive to say that "texture format is R16G16B16A16_unorm" and you couldn't make a "float" view to it[17:28:52] <fazias> or maybe sint vs uint[17:30:24] <fazias> Also, I think the channel swizzles were part of the api. So I won't comment on if you can just interpret format BGR as RGB just by changing the format.[17:31:10] <fazias> https://www.khronos.org/registry/vulkan/specs/1.1-extensions/man/html/VkComponentMapping.html[17:31:11] <HZun> so if you "only need to match the channel count and how many bits is used per channel", then why does the image api not take a format that specify just that? instead of a format with irrelevant information?[17:31:31] <fazias> :D Now that's a good question.[17:31:40] <HZun> :D[17:32:26] <fazias> But you might already guess, but I don't know.[17:32:28] <ratchetfreak> "If image was created with the VK_IMAGE_CREATE_MUTABLE_FORMAT_BIT flag, and if the format of the image is not multi-planar, format can be different from the image’s format, but if image was created without the VK_IMAGE_CREATE_BLOCK_TEXEL_VIEW_COMPATIBLE_BIT flag and they are not equal they must be compatible. Image format compatibility is defined in the Format Compatibility Classes section. Views of compatible formats will h[17:32:33] <HZun> I am just trying to understand the rationale behind the API (in order to understand it more clearly) :D[17:35:28] <fazias> Views of compatible formats will have the same mapping between texel coordinates and memory locations irrespective of the format, with only the interpretation of the bit pattern changing.[17:35:44] <fazias> part that was cut from ratchetfreaks paste[17:35:52] <ratchetfreak> it's to allow reinterpretation of each pixel bit pattern, so you can write uint in one shader and read srgb in another[17:36:11] *** goiko_ <goiko_!~goiko@p57B5DE3A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Quit: ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿ O'RLY? Bye!)[17:36:30] <fazias> Basically the rationale is to have flexibility on how to view the data that texture holds[17:37:12] <fazias> instead of doing your own conversions in shaders that the hardware could do for you free[17:42:33] <HZun> do the above quotes from the spec answer why the image format is not a "less specific" format without irrelevant information? if so then i will try to reread it until i understand it.[17:43:04] <HZun> i get that image views provide "reinterpretation/flexibility".[17:44:08] *** xissburg <xissburg!~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg> has joined ##vulkan[17:53:53] *** nsf <nsf!~nsf@jiss.convex.ru> has joined ##vulkan[17:54:36] <HZun> it would make more sense if the image format instead was a compatibility class.[18:02:25] *** grizwako <grizwako!~grizwako@213.147.101.34> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[18:07:09] *** d3x0r <d3x0r!~d3x0r@ip174-72-226-164.lv.lv.cox.net> has joined ##vulkan[18:12:19] *** Lucretia <Lucretia!~laguest@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[18:13:47] *** Lucretia <Lucretia!~laguest@2a02:c7d:3c35:b000:325a:3aff:fe0f:37a5> has joined ##vulkan[18:13:47] *** Lucretia <Lucretia!~laguest@2a02:c7d:3c35:b000:325a:3aff:fe0f:37a5> has quit IRC (Changing host)[18:13:47] *** Lucretia <Lucretia!~laguest@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia> has joined ##vulkan[18:15:49] <HZun> anyway thanks for the help :)[18:17:16] <HZun> I have another question. "Execution of pipeline stages within a given command also has a loose ordering, dependent only on a single command." What does this mean? why does it matter what the internal ordering of operations within a command are? since pipeline barriers are between commands and not internal operations?[18:21:40] *** borkr <borkr!~borkr@static130-244.mimer.net> has joined ##vulkan[18:21:47] <ratchetfreak> It's making it explicit that there is no internal ordering of the actions of a single command[18:22:17] <ratchetfreak> basically making any attempt to try and force some kind of sync out of such a property invalid[18:27:47] <HZun> hmm okay. i just interpreted "loose" as meaning "some" based on the paragraphs location under implicit ordering guarantees.[18:28:20] <HZun> but then what about this "Execution of operations across pipeline stages must adhere to implicit ordering guarantees, particularly including pipeline stage order."[18:28:31] <HZun> this talks about operations and not commands.[18:31:08] <ratchetfreak> IIRC implicit ordering guarantees is only the actual render[18:31:38] <ratchetfreak> making earlier triangles get overwritten by later triangles if no depth test[18:32:27] *** Lucretia <Lucretia!~laguest@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[18:36:04] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!c351a8d8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.81.168.216> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[18:37:44] *** ector <ector!~asdf@ua-85-224-236-175.bbcust.telenor.se> has joined ##vulkan[18:38:17] <HZun> i still dont understand what the implicit ordering guarantees are. if i want ordering guarantees between commands, then i need to use a pipeline barrier.[18:38:25] <HZun> right?[18:38:53] <fazias> yes[18:40:22] <HZun> so which operations "must adhere to implicit ordering guarantees" if the operations of different commands can always execute out of order without a barrier, and if operations within a command has "loose ordering", etc?[18:46:48] <HZun> or am i misunderstanding something?[18:53:37] <fazias> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GDg4OxkSEc This might be nice video to watch, sort of on subject. "Vulkanised 2018 - Keeping your device fed"[18:54:12] <fazias> and even more in subject[18:54:25] <fazias> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0ySJ9Qzvrs Vulkanised 2018 - Low-level mysteries of pipeline barriers[18:54:57] <HZun> thanks i will :)[18:55:03] <fazias> Actually recommend the last video more.[18:55:23] <HZun> i will probably watch both :)[18:57:46] *** Deluxe <Deluxe!~Deluxe@212.4.150.151> has joined ##vulkan[18:58:13] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-157-70-142.range86-157.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Neat![22:39:31] <dyl> I didn't know that existed.[22:43:48] *** d3x0r <d3x0r!~d3x0r@ip174-72-226-164.lv.lv.cox.net> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[22:44:48] *** d3x0r <d3x0r!~d3x0r@ip174-72-226-164.lv.lv.cox.net> has joined ##vulkan[22:51:38] *** glYoda <glYoda!~MTLYoda@c-73-25-27-206.hsd1.or.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Quit: glYoda)[22:58:10] *** halbeno <halbeno!~halbeno@S0106ac202ecc7933.ed.shawcable.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[23:03:20] *** sla_ro|master <sla_ro|master!~sla.ro@78.96.209.89> has quit IRC ()[23:11:50] *** Lucretia <Lucretia!~laguest@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[23:13:12] *** Lucretia <Lucretia!~laguest@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia> has joined ##vulkan[23:22:44] *** Deluxe <Deluxe!~Deluxe@212.4.150.151> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[23:42:32] *** ciaala <ciaala!~crypt@2a02:120b:2c1f:4960:6ef0:49ff:feee:4777> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[23:49:47] *** davr0s <davr0s!~textual@host86-157-70-142.range86-157.btcentralplus.com> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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