June 28, 2017 
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June 28, 2017 [00:02:44] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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<pushrax!~pushrax@bnc.j-li.net> has quit IRC (Changing host)[04:37:42] *** pushrax <pushrax!~pushrax@unaffiliated/pushrax> has joined ##vulkan[04:40:05] *** Pseudocrat <Pseudocrat!~quassel@unaffiliated/pseudocrat> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[05:00:30] *** jdashg <jdashg!~jdashg@50.233.106.125> has joined ##vulkan[05:14:57] *** sla_ro|master <sla_ro|master!~sla.ro@95.76.45.217> has joined ##vulkan[05:21:42] *** Nilesh <Nilesh!uid116340@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ijsularczepfdddp> has joined ##vulkan[05:28:10] *** ravior <ravior!~crapitea@79.116.102.182> has joined ##vulkan[05:33:50] *** djwraith <djwraith!0e99eea5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.14.153.238.165> has joined ##vulkan[05:34:17] <djwraith> why is it that the vulkan runtime on windows is packaged as an NSIS installer, but NOT msi?[05:34:49] <djwraith> on windows 10 IOT and windows 10 S versions, you can install stuff in an inf file with ddinstall sections[05:35:15] <djwraith> currently, many gpu driver vendors ship the vulkan runtime as a part of the driver package[05:35:44] <djwraith> which is VERY BAD practise, since two vendors' vulkan files might provide a possibility for file collision[05:36:24] <djwraith> if you folks ship the runtime as msi, then there's going to be more incentive for driver vendors to install the msi at the end of their setup.exe process[05:36:32] <djwraith> instead of doing the stuff with coinstaller[05:36:46] <djwraith> user should have TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE control of their vulkan runtime[05:36:58] <djwraith> while gpu vendors are supposed to provide ICD[05:37:08] <djwraith> THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO PROVIDE THE RUNTIME[05:37:15] <djwraith> which is operating system vendor's job[05:37:25] <djwraith> or the sysadmin's[05:39:50] *** jdashg <jdashg!~jdashg@50.233.106.125> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[06:01:07] <slime> good luck getting microsoft to provide a competitor api's runtime installed by default[06:01:25] *** BearishMushroom <BearishMushroom!~BearishMu@90-231-174-194-no159.tbcn.telia.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[06:01:47] <djwraith> slime: then the user herself is responsible for installing the vulkan runtime[06:02:11] <djwraith> or, have driver's stub setup.exe call VulkanRT-Install.exe at the end of driver installation[06:02:24] <djwraith> (DON'T EVEN INCLUDE IT IN INF COINSTALLER)[06:02:42] <djwraith> instead do it with the vendor's stub setup.exe[06:02:58] <djwraith> anyway, the vulkan runtime is NO windows kernel module[06:03:11] <djwraith> it's not supposed to be part of the driver anyway[06:04:34] <djwraith> a REAL driver on windows comprises windows kernel modules and vendor-specific libraries, and in this case, it should have been nvidia's vulkan icd[06:04:38] <djwraith> not the entire runtime[06:05:10] *** TechnoCrunch <TechnoCrunch!~TechnoCru@101.100.137.146> has joined ##vulkan[06:05:18] <djwraith> whenever a user runs the nvidia setup.exe, setup.exe first install the real part of the driver without the vulkan runtime[06:05:29] <djwraith> and then run vulkanrt-installer.exe in silent mode[06:05:39] <djwraith> that would have solved the problem[06:06:07] <djwraith> if nvidia had wanted to preserve behavioral consistency[06:07:28] <djwraith> this would allow a system administrator to deploy a version of the vulkan runtime of her choice[06:07:52] <djwraith> not two or three colliding versions of the same runtime from three different vendors[06:08:29] <djwraith> even better, give make it an optional package which users can tick it off in the gui installation process[06:09:02] <djwraith> *which users can tick off*[06:10:16] <djwraith> then sysadmins can just run vulkanrt-installer.exe in silent mode in the specialize stage of the windows setup[06:11:27] <djwraith> yes, we absolutely need Vulkan as an awesome API. however, the current packaging is HORRIBLE[06:11:54] <djwraith> which is made even more horrible on Windows through GPU vendor's bundling[06:12:09] <djwraith> and their way of dealing with driver installation[06:12:44] <djwraith> since msft requires every production driver to be whql'd[06:12:55] *** rlarionov <rlarionov!~rlarionov@68-202-221-190.res.bhn.net> has joined ##vulkan[06:13:10] <djwraith> and since vulkanrt-installer.exe and the inf is already present in nvidia's driver security catalog[06:13:35] <djwraith> sysadmins cannot simply remove vulkanrt-installer.exe and add the package to the driver store[06:14:09] <djwraith> since modifying the security catalog requires a signing operation[06:17:04] <djwraith> in this, I suggest khronos build the installer as an msi package for a start.[06:17:11] <djwraith> or lunarg[06:17:27] *** Tiffany <Tiffany!tiffany@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe> has left ##vulkan ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.")[06:17:36] <djwraith> and get rid of .run packaging for unices[06:17:49] <djwraith> just make it a plain simple tgz archive[06:30:03] *** sla_ro|master <sla_ro|master!~sla.ro@95.76.45.217> has quit IRC ()[06:38:54] *** Pseudocrat <Pseudocrat!~quassel@cpe-76-183-103-244.tx.res.rr.com> has joined ##vulkan[06:38:54] *** Pseudocrat <Pseudocrat!~quassel@cpe-76-183-103-244.tx.res.rr.com> has quit IRC (Changing host)[06:38:54] *** Pseudocrat <Pseudocrat!~quassel@unaffiliated/pseudocrat> has joined ##vulkan[06:45:44] *** tambre <tambre!~tambre@b7b4-f9b6-7504-78a9-0e80-8a31-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee> has joined ##vulkan[06:47:58] *** qptain_Nemo <qptain_Nemo!~qN@broadband-77-37-235-217.moscow.rt.ru> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[07:00:45] *** Vanaheim <Vanaheim!~Vanaheim@janus-nat-128-240-225-82.ncl.ac.uk> has joined ##vulkan[07:34:40] *** Andrej1 <Andrej1!~Andrej@BSN-176-130-12.dynamic.siol.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[07:43:03] *** nsf <nsf!~nsf@jiss.convex.ru> has joined ##vulkan[08:01:50] *** slidercrank <slidercrank!~slidercra@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/fifth/slidercrank> has quit IRC (Quit: siht gnidaer er'uoy fi emit eerf hcum oot evah uoy :tiuQ)[08:08:13] *** toor_ <toor_!~toor@eth-east-parth2-46-193-65-52.wb.wifirst.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[08:09:33] *** Pseudocrat <Pseudocrat!~quassel@unaffiliated/pseudocrat> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[08:23:27] *** djwraith <djwraith!0e99eea5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.14.153.238.165> has quit IRC (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)[08:23:43] *** djwraith <djwraith!0e99eea5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.14.153.238.165> has joined ##vulkan[08:36:03] *** ImQ009 <ImQ009!~ImQ009@unaffiliated/imq009> has joined ##vulkan[08:49:54] *** jbracey_00 <jbracey_00!~jbracey20@d60-65-103-193.col.wideopenwest.com> has joined ##vulkan[09:17:10] *** jbracey_01 <jbracey_01!~jbracey20@d60-65-103-193.col.wideopenwest.com> has joined ##vulkan[09:19:23] *** jbracey_00 <jbracey_00!~jbracey20@d60-65-103-193.col.wideopenwest.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[09:23:41] *** realitix <realitix!~realitix@92.103.166.6> has joined ##vulkan[09:46:00] *** ravior <ravior!~crapitea@79.116.102.182> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[10:00:09] <ryp> djwraith: i feel your pain[10:04:40] *** ImQ009 <ImQ009!~ImQ009@unaffiliated/imq009> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[10:05:37] *** ImQ009 <ImQ009!~ImQ009@unaffiliated/imq009> has joined ##vulkan[10:08:43] *** Ralith_ <Ralith_!~ralith@c-24-56-236-197.customer.broadstripe.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[10:10:32] *** kuldeep <kuldeep!~kuldeep@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka> has quit IRC (Excess Flood)[10:10:48] *** kuldeep <kuldeep!~kuldeep@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka> has joined ##vulkan[10:17:14] *** jbracey_00 <jbracey_00!~jbracey20@65.60.193.103> has joined ##vulkan[10:17:40] *** Biolunar <Biolunar!Biolunar@dslb-092-073-140-117.092.073.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined ##vulkan[10:19:49] *** jbracey_01 <jbracey_01!~jbracey20@d60-65-103-193.col.wideopenwest.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)[10:21:12] *** ratchetfreak <ratchetfreak!c351a8d8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.81.168.216> has joined ##vulkan[10:22:42] *** Ralith_ <Ralith_!~ralith@172.58.43.154> has joined ##vulkan[10:32:58] *** ravior <ravior!~crapitea@89.121.200.106> has joined ##vulkan[10:35:27] <Cheery> djwraith: can relate to that too, except that everything's shit.[10:44:35] *** kasumi-owari <kasumi-owari!~kasumi-ow@ftth-213-233-237-007.solcon.nl> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)[10:45:48] *** rlarionov <rlarionov!~rlarionov@68-202-221-190.res.bhn.net> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[10:46:09] *** kasumi-owari <kasumi-owari!~kasumi-ow@ftth-213-233-237-007.solcon.nl> has joined ##vulkan[11:14:28] *** ZexaronS <ZexaronS!~zexpc@cpe-194-152-22-45.static.triera.net> has joined ##vulkan[11:17:28] *** jbracey_01 <jbracey_01!~jbracey20@d60-65-103-193.col.wideopenwest.com> has joined ##vulkan[11:20:53] *** jbracey_00 <jbracey_00!~jbracey20@65.60.193.103> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[11:24:02] *** crankslider <crankslider!~slidercra@ircpuzzles/2015/april-fools/fifth/slidercrank> has joined ##vulkan[11:36:14] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined ##vulkan[11:41:05] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)[11:41:54] *** MrBusiness <MrBusiness!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:81e4:8c52:9320:25ff> has joined ##vulkan[11:42:52] *** psychicist__ <psychicist__!~psychicis@ip127-8-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl> has joined ##vulkan[11:43:10] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined ##vulkan[11:43:53] *** hs_ <hs_!~hs_@c-24-16-81-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[11:45:09] *** hs_ <hs_!~hs_@c-24-16-81-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net> has joined ##vulkan[11:50:18] <MrBusiness> Does Vulkan have/need any kind of GLU-like library?[11:50:56] <MrBusiness> I haven't gotten very far in reading the redbook, so I'm still quite new to this. I have to admit, reading the redbook for it is somewhat discouraging.[11:51:22] <sharpneli> There are various kinds of libraries trying to make it simpler. Generally the simpler it is the more performance hit you'll take.[11:52:17] <MrBusiness> Yeah, the thing that resonated strongest with me was the dire warning in the Foreward of the red book declaring that Vulkan is better at making Middleware[11:52:56] <MrBusiness> rather than having the "whippupitude," to borrow a real bad fake word--that OpenGL has/had.[11:53:07] <MrBusiness> I need to get a copy of the last OGL Redbook[11:53:17] <ratchetfreak> all you really need is a way to get a vkSurface to present to the screen with, everything else is done on pure Vulkan[11:53:24] <MrBusiness> I was reading the Superbible though, and it seems like things have changed a lot since I wrote OpenGL directly.[11:53:48] <MrBusiness> I'm also curious about the differences between SIPR-V and GLSL[11:54:14] <MrBusiness> I'd imagine it does more GPGPU type tripe, which sort of conflates it with OpenCL. I'm guessing that it's not actually like that.[11:54:24] <MrBusiness> I've considered working with OpenCL in conjunction with Vulkan[11:54:44] <ratchetfreak> spir-v is a binary format and less ambiguous than the C dialect that glsl is[11:54:47] <MrBusiness> and a few other libs if I can make them compute Vulkan primitives ultimately, such as Cairo and Libcaca[11:55:22] <MrBusiness> Interesting. That's encouraging. Sounds like it takes after a hardware design language such as Verilog, save the absence of C-like syntax.[11:55:51] <MrBusiness> Which Verilog suffers from. Not sure if the Verilog alternative is so deceptively and mistakenly C-like, as I've never read it and can't even remember the name of it[11:55:57] <MrBusiness> I think it's HLSL[11:56:01] <MrBusiness> or HLDL[11:56:04] <MrBusiness> something like that[11:56:09] <MrBusiness> I dunno, time to wiki it[11:56:25] <ratchetfreak> not really spir-V is a SSA IR bytecode[11:56:39] <MrBusiness> wow. So it's like some kind of ASM?[11:56:44] <ratchetfreak> yeah[11:56:46] <sharpneli> Pretty much yeah[11:56:49] <MrBusiness> Wowza[11:56:51] <MrBusiness> I mean[11:56:55] <MrBusiness> I've written IA32 before[11:56:57] <sharpneli> Bit higher level tho. No registers etc.[11:56:59] <ratchetfreak> it still needs to be lowered into proper machinecode by the driver[11:57:10] <MrBusiness> it's not outside my ken, but I never wrote anything substantially performance-oriented.[11:57:13] <baldurk> I wouldn't recommend hand-authoring SPIR-V[11:57:18] <baldurk> at least not at first[11:57:34] <MrBusiness> Yeah, it sounds like I'd do well to make some kind of DSL out of it.[11:57:36] <sharpneli> By far the best way is just to write glsl and compile it to spir-v. Or hlsl.[11:57:37] <MrBusiness> Maybe a Forth.[11:57:46] <sharpneli> Because there are ready made tools for them.[11:57:49] <MrBusiness> hm, interesting.[11:58:02] <MrBusiness> Yeah, that's true, there are lots of interesting GLSL test/view environments[11:58:08] <MrBusiness> I think OS X used to have one right out of the box[11:58:09] <sharpneli> Just grab the vulkan sdk and you'll find the compiler there.[11:58:19] <MrBusiness> not sure about now though since they're dumbing that OS down pretty hard[11:58:39] <ratchetfreak> osx doesn't even have vulkan[11:59:08] <MrBusiness> Yeah. I'm conflicted about whether now is even the best time to make a Vulkan game, since I don't know how far LunarG has gone in developing and debugging the Vulkan shared object libraries they seem to be publishing for the three major OS kernels for PCs[11:59:14] <MrBusiness> and probably also the mobile drivers[11:59:36] <MrBusiness> heh, yeah, that makes sense. OS X is sometimes a forerunner, but for many low-level things they're the last to the party[11:59:43] <MrBusiness> last company to implement TRIM on SSDs[11:59:46] <sharpneli> If you want to make a game grab unreal or unity[11:59:54] <sharpneli> If you want to fiddle around with vulkan then fiddle around with it[12:00:06] <MrBusiness> Ah, well, that's another requirement I have, I'm only gonna use middleware if it's free software[12:00:06] *** jkilpatr <jkilpatr!~jkilpatr@2602:30a:c7da:b600:845f:2921:2881:c7ba> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[12:00:11] <MrBusiness> I'm going with Godot for the moment[12:00:23] <MrBusiness> since it has lots of interesting features and a non js/C# scripting language[12:01:16] <MrBusiness> But I don't wanna pay no license fees to Epic or Unity[12:01:37] <MrBusiness> Even if it puts me behind the curve, I'm not about to attempt to make the next AAA war game FPS[12:01:52] <ratchetfreak> if your game doesn't sell then you often don't need to pay any license fees[12:02:18] <ratchetfreak> if the game does sell then you have an income to pay the fees from...[12:02:23] <MrBusiness> I'm more interested in using the GPU to do high-level techniques such as dynamic, reflective, optically accurate lighting and shading on low-polygon voxels sized with a 1:1 pixel:voxel ratio such that it looks like dynamically lit pixel art with strong shadows[12:02:30] <sharpneli> Yap. Unreal was 5% fee or something like that[12:02:32] <sharpneli> Practically free[12:02:36] *** psychicist__ <psychicist__!~psychicis@ip127-8-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[12:02:46] *** psychicist__ <psychicist__!~psychicis@ip127-8-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl> has joined ##vulkan[12:02:50] <sharpneli> And it has C++ based "scripting" if you so wish[12:02:53] <MrBusiness> and then another game that'll be roughly StarFox 64 in terms of polygon counts per character, but with lots and lots of objects in the world, and realistic shaders and lighting and such[12:03:21] <baldurk> 5% is on gross revenue not profits though, but still the point being that if you're not selling over a certain threshold you don't pay the fee[12:03:26] <MrBusiness> My margins are likely to be so thin that 5% would either be sandwich money or ruinous to my fragile design. I just can't get with using some proprietary engine.[12:03:39] <MrBusiness> I mean, Godot has a lot of useful batteries included and it's totally free[12:04:06] <MrBusiness> it's a compelling alternative, and it's soon to have C++ support so that one can optimize specific code segments beyond the level of capability provided by the built-in GDScript[12:04:18] <MrBusiness> which looks like Lua and Python had a baby that came out mostly Pythonic[12:05:34] <sharpneli> Godot looks like it'll instantly choke if you put too many objects in. But that's the fate of all engines like that.[12:05:38] <sharpneli> But it's likely a fine choice.[12:05:50] <MrBusiness> Well, if nothing else[12:05:53] <MrBusiness> I can use it to prototype[12:06:02] <MrBusiness> and then do the horrible slog of making a specialized engine[12:06:24] <MrBusiness> optimized the way I originally planned to build it, with C++, Vulkan/OpenGL/OpenCL/and Vulkan[12:06:45] <MrBusiness> and maybe a scripting lang interpreter or, if I'm really ballsy, a full Perl runtime[12:06:58] <MrBusiness> not that I've ever been able to get through all the reading necessary to understand how to write XSubs[12:07:01] <sharpneli> Making an engine is more than just horrible. It's insanity if you want to make it even a bit generic.[12:07:24] <MrBusiness> Well, if I made a custom one, it would be specifically tailored to making just that game.[12:07:44] <sharpneli> That's slightly more reasonable. But only slightly. Going to take years.[12:07:55] <MrBusiness> But I think that the C++ layer to Godot, coupled with its increasing use of GLSL, will eventually make it quite fine for making a complex game.[12:08:11] <MrBusiness> But if I limit my resolution and polygon counts carefully, then I reckon that anything will run the games.[12:08:51] <sharpneli> Polygon count and resolution tend to be overwhelmed by the drawcall overhead on those kind of engines in the end.[12:09:23] <ratchetfreak> large posable meshes drawn with a single drawcall tend to be cheap[12:09:23] <MrBusiness> yeah, having good backface culling and the like[12:09:29] <MrBusiness> I'll need good objects and algorithms[12:10:12] <MrBusiness> But that's all left for after I have a prototype that I can run analytics on[12:10:32] <sharpneli> Only in mobile one tends to hit any kind of reasonable polycount limit. On desktop as long as your polys are not smaller than pixels on screen you can fill your screen trivially.[12:10:44] <sharpneli> It's more about the fragment processing in the end.[12:11:15] <MrBusiness> Hmm, fragment processing. I'm sad I took computer graphics before the advent of GLSL[12:11:19] <MrBusiness> it really seems to have changed the game[12:12:00] <sharpneli> You'll get the gist of it quickly. You should learn the modern pipeline in OpenGL or DirectX before diving into Vulkan tho.[12:12:06] <MrBusiness> Granted, my first OGL application I made in college was a horrid little boondoggle of bad data type choices.[12:12:35] <MrBusiness> Yeah, maybe I'll finish my Superbible, hit the OGL redbook final edition, read the orange book and then read the vulkan redbook[12:12:48] <MrBusiness> and hopefully, between that and a lot of test programs I'll figure things out[12:13:00] <sharpneli> Also you should write something. There are bunch of practical annoyances the books won't necessarily talk about.[12:13:09] <MrBusiness> the other challenge is figuring out the algorithms and equations I'll need to manipulate my in-game camera optimally for a given game[12:13:30] <MrBusiness> A good example of what I mean can be found in Cave Story, where the camera always looks slightly ahead of the direction the character is facing[12:13:44] <MrBusiness> And yes, I know all about the practical annoyances.[12:13:55] <MrBusiness> When I wrote my world sim for computer graphics my friend actually came to me for debugging help[12:14:13] <MrBusiness> I quickly realized that he was drawing in the wrong order, since all the draws were popped in FIFO order[12:14:31] <MrBusiness> but he was treating them as in-order polygon draws (and maybe have reversed his normals by drawing his polygons clockwise)[12:14:38] <MrBusiness> and he didn't push or pop his matrices[12:14:52] <MrBusiness> so the end result looked a like the what happens when one falls out of the boundaries of a Quake 1 level[12:14:57] <MrBusiness> the sky was full of overdraws[12:14:59] <MrBusiness> it was a mess[12:15:16] <MrBusiness> fixed it 5 minutes because I took careful note of those wonks and bookmarked them specifically in my redbook[12:15:26] <MrBusiness> since they were some of the parts that made me fell, shall we say, "uneasy'[12:15:31] <MrBusiness> uh oh, I'm talking to myself again[12:15:35] <MrBusiness> guess I'll idle for a bit[12:16:01] <MrBusiness> maybe read some more about Vulkan. That language reminds me a lot of OCaml for being such a "better than C but still similar to C" language[12:16:28] <MrBusiness> I mean, all the invariance, let bindings, weird return semantics revolving around the presence or absence of a sequence point at the end of a code block[12:16:32] <MrBusiness> weird rules all over the place[12:17:25] <MrBusiness> all my tech books usually contain a lot of underlining as well as a specialized set of symbols for marking important facts, shocking facts, onerous facts, omens of ill portent, and summarizing things expressed at paragraph length to inflate the size of the book when the matter could be more succinctly and accurately expressed[12:17:31] *** jbracey_00 <jbracey_00!~jbracey20@d60-65-103-193.col.wideopenwest.com> has joined ##vulkan[12:18:29] <MrBusiness> for example, a common writing convention in technology books tends to be, "step 1: present the incorrect assumptions 2: show an oversimplified example of how it really works 3: optionally, force your audience to work on some numbered homework problems in order to understand the true corners and limits of things[12:19:35] <MrBusiness> reminds me a bit of the time we had to write a program to extract and print, line by line, each digit of an integer without any string manipulations. That was a good exercise, as it showed me what an effective pair division and modulus can be provided certain specific constants[12:19:47] *** jbracey_01 <jbracey_01!~jbracey20@d60-65-103-193.col.wideopenwest.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)[12:20:58] <MrBusiness> Or is Vulkan's thing called Mantle still? I may be confused about the name of Vulkan's shading language.[12:21:18] <baldurk> Vulkan doesn't have a specific shading language, it accepts SPIR-V only[12:22:31] <MrBusiness> okay, it is called SIPR-V[12:22:58] <MrBusiness> for some reason internet searches for GLSL vs SIPR-V doesn't provide a direct juxtaposition, which gives me the impression that there's really a tremendous gulf between the two[12:23:06] <MrBusiness> if nobody has blogged any specific comparisons between the two[12:23:19] <MrBusiness> But it's probably best that GLSL remain the major player[12:23:27] <MrBusiness> for purposes of humans making shaders[12:23:59] <MrBusiness> though ostensibly it would probably more illuminating for those wanting to understand the driver interface and the underlying hardware by writing SIPR-V[12:24:20] <MrBusiness> But that seems like a fringe scenario for serious computer graphics nerds.[12:24:38] <MrBusiness> Pixar, for example, might have the time, money, and expertise to do useful things in it.[12:26:33] *** TTimo <TTimo!~timo@ec2-52-23-106-143.compute-1.amazonaws.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)[12:27:33] <sharpneli> MrBusiness: SPIR-V is different from GLSL. SPIR-V is closer to DirectX bytecode. You can find already working compilers that produce SPIR-V from GLSL and HLSL[12:27:56] <sharpneli> MrBusiness: That means Vulkan is not tied to any specific high level shading language.[12:28:16] <MrBusiness> ah, that's intersting[12:29:24] <MrBusiness> Sort of makes me want to do something that would be a serious waste of time, such as writing a sort of Forth that translates to idiomatic GLSL and then compiles down to SIPR-V. Just something to save tedious, C-like coding in favor of something that is confusing in its own, different right[12:29:42] <MrBusiness> but could also probably handle weird hardware situations fluidly, since Forth is such a thin veneer over hardware[12:30:31] <sharpneli> Or just write GLSL.[12:30:52] <MrBusiness> Yeah. But then I miss the fun of making another potential entry into the esolang wiki[12:30:55] <sharpneli> Or if you really want to write forth then write forth to spir-v[12:31:19] <MrBusiness> Yeah, that makes the most sense perhaps, since Forth to GLSL would likely entail more writing than the GLSL would[12:31:22] <sharpneli> But it's going to be massive pain. Forth is stack based language.[12:31:33] <MrBusiness> and the goal of Forth is partly to reduce the amount of writing and increase the amount of reuse[12:31:51] <MrBusiness> and Yeah, Forth is mega-primitive in its purest form[12:31:55] <sharpneli> SPIR-V is static single assignment form intermediate language[12:32:04] <sharpneli> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_single_assignment_form[12:32:12] <MrBusiness> sort of like LLVM bytecode, perhaps[12:32:20] <sharpneli> Pretty much like LLVM bytecode[12:32:20] <MrBusiness> or the Lua interpreters intermediate language[12:32:28] <sharpneli> It was the inspiration for SPIR-V[12:32:32] <MrBusiness> Interesting[12:32:46] <MrBusiness> makes sense[12:32:49] <MrBusiness> single representation[12:32:51] <MrBusiness> and all that[12:33:11] <MrBusiness> and high levels of static objects that can be analyzed by all these complex shader units[12:33:21] <MrBusiness> at least if i do a lot of fragment shading and the like[12:33:35] <MrBusiness> which seems like the defacto way to do things these days[12:33:54] <sharpneli> You have to do at least some fragment shading. There is no output without a shader.[12:34:39] <MrBusiness> but the end result is also, for me, a game system where I can define lots of things in simple DSLs aimed at artists and non-coders to let them specify modifications to the default renderer's lumiance, materials, shadows, and other shader properties based on the color of a voxel as portrayed by a particular game object.[12:35:00] <MrBusiness> This way I can make 2D games with many degrees of freedom while sticking to what looks like pixel art[12:35:25] <MrBusiness> and if it's self-shading and reflective/refractive/etc following semi-real color and light physics across a low resolution surface[12:35:43] <MrBusiness> well, that opens up the door to a lot of time saved only having to make a few modifications to a given art asset to animate it[12:36:48] <MrBusiness> as opposed to, say making 8 frames of a given standing animation when I can just whip up a voxel model, translate it into as few polygons and some non-rendered polygon metadata about invisible but possibly reflective unseen surfaces[12:36:55] <MrBusiness> and illuminating the fringes of those[12:37:26] <MrBusiness> so that, say, a person walking face first into a dark room through a half-closed garage door may be illuminated by bloom from reflections off of his white trench coat[12:37:51] <MrBusiness> but is otherwise black and blending with my invisible layer of static that I'll borrow from Silent Hill to make darkness look more like it looks[12:37:53] <MrBusiness> at least to my eyes[12:38:25] <MrBusiness> i mean, everyone sees static in the dark at night, partly from the irregular introduction of photons from artificial lights and the diamond-studded light of open flames[12:38:50] <MrBusiness> and partly from noise from the brain trying to process shapes when the lumiance is poor and the color barely discernible.[12:38:52] <sharpneli> Write it and test it. You might hit into unforeseen performance implications.[12:39:01] <MrBusiness> Oh, I know I will[12:39:04] <MrBusiness> but it has been done[12:39:21] <MrBusiness> I proved that yesterday when I found a game that has an engine that appears to do what I want, albeit from the wrong angle for my purposes[12:39:39] <MrBusiness> I think the biggest challenge, honestly, will be making everything look like good pixel art instead of voxel art[12:40:04] <MrBusiness> it'll probably require some deception, as well as some patching over parts that don't render well on the natural engine's mode of display[12:40:22] <MrBusiness> since I'm sure at least a few models will look bad even after processed through the material system and assigned optical properties[12:40:33] *** psychicist__ <psychicist__!~psychicis@ip127-8-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)[12:40:41] <MrBusiness> I mean, just using 32-bit color alone is a big peformance hit[12:40:43] *** psychicist__ <psychicist__!~psychicis@ip127-8-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl> has joined ##vulkan[12:40:52] <MrBusiness> 26-bit color with an alpha flag is much faster to render[12:40:59] <sharpneli> wat[12:41:22] <sharpneli> It's not aligned. Generally slower. And no-one supports that.[12:41:25] <MrBusiness> I mean, it's more like 25+32, since the alpha deal is a flag for 24-bit color[12:41:44] <sharpneli> Are you now thinking in term of CPU rasterization?[12:41:51] <MrBusiness> or a 32-bit integer with the highest 16 bytes reserved for a binary alpha flag[12:41:58] <MrBusiness> but I'd rather have full 32-bit with alpha[12:42:05] <MrBusiness> which, alas, is an optical nightmare[12:42:27] <MrBusiness> because then I get into a lot of complex color matters with respects to the physical properties and optical properties of the thing I am attempting to represent[12:42:50] <MrBusiness> reflectivity, refractivity, diffraction, glowing, bloom, etc, so on[12:42:54] <MrBusiness> boring[12:43:04] <MrBusiness> but also cool if one happens to be sufficiently nerdy to find it as such[12:43:17] <MrBusiness> I need to find and finish reading my copy of Light & Color in the Outdoors[12:43:54] <MrBusiness> it's a very down-to-Earth discussion of the physics of optics from an artistic angle. Probably not going to contain a lot of algorithms, but I have books on that subject I can cross-reference[12:44:35] *** tacchinotacchi <tacchinotacchi!~tacchinot@net-37-119-65-218.cust.vodafonedsl.it> has joined ##vulkan[12:44:45] <MrBusiness> and a sea of people speaking poor English into YouTube videos that are effectively a still image of a PowerPoint slide attempting to explain the fundamentals of linear algebra and trigonometry with about as much efficacy of a homicidal calculus professor[12:45:05] <ratchetfreak> 32 bit color is usually 8 bits per RGB channel + 8 bits of alpha[12:46:50] *** tacchinotacchi <tacchinotacchi!~tacchinot@net-37-119-65-218.cust.vodafonedsl.it> has quit IRC (Client Quit)[12:47:14] <MrBusiness> yep[12:47:22] <MrBusiness> that's what I am thinking of[12:47:31] <MrBusiness> though I was a tester for a 2D engine[12:47:57] <MrBusiness> it was designed to provide things more germane to demo scene programming but was ultimately 2D oriented.[12:48:11] <MrBusiness> It was also made to be easily bound to other languages.[12:48:34] <MrBusiness> But the creator, at my behest, reluctantly added 32-bit color with full 8-bit alpha[12:48:43] <MrBusiness> prior to that he was doing 24-bit color[12:49:05] <MrBusiness> the end result was that he wrote an optimized blitting system to replace the SDL default[12:49:26] <MrBusiness> and made the whole thing render as an OpenGL surface at the end, if only to get cheap zooming.[12:49:44] <MrBusiness> But in most respects he went to great lengths to avoid doing anything off of the CPU[12:50:19] <MrBusiness> which might make it more instantly compatible, but it also had a bad problem, which is that the same guy who wrote the engine wrote the documentation to it[12:50:36] <MrBusiness> His writing, much like his code, was terse to a fault and had no discernible shape.[12:50:46] <MrBusiness> It was clear how the available C structs for the engine fit together[12:50:48] <MrBusiness> it was madness[12:51:09] <MrBusiness> However, it has produced 3 android games despite being optimized initially for desktop development[12:51:50] <MrBusiness> I'd kind of like to make something in it if I could understand it, if only to show the guy who wrote it that despite its fault and his faults (we have some bad blood between us these days)[12:52:15] <MrBusiness> but it'll never gain any popularity. He seems to be putting it in his personal toolkit and otherwise not really advertising anything.[12:58:45] *** jkilpatr <jkilpatr!~jkilpatr@ip65-46-221-202.z221-46-65.customer.algx.net> has joined ##vulkan[13:16:10] *** TechnoCrunch <TechnoCrunch!~TechnoCru@101.100.137.146> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[13:17:38] *** jbracey_01 <jbracey_01!~jbracey20@d60-65-103-193.col.wideopenwest.com> has joined ##vulkan[13:21:13] *** jbracey_00 <jbracey_00!~jbracey20@d60-65-103-193.col.wideopenwest.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[13:38:43] *** Andrej1 <Andrej1!~Andrej@86.61.100.151> has joined ##vulkan[13:41:53] *** jkilpatr <jkilpatr!~jkilpatr@ip65-46-221-202.z221-46-65.customer.algx.net> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)[13:50:40] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…)[22:25:10] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined ##vulkan[22:31:55] *** cheako <cheako!~cheako@c-24-245-9-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net> has joined ##vulkan[22:38:05] *** kasumi-owari <kasumi-owari!~kasumi-ow@ftth-213-233-237-007.solcon.nl> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[22:39:54] *** kasumi-owari <kasumi-owari!~kasumi-ow@ftth-213-233-237-007.solcon.nl> has joined ##vulkan[22:43:20] <cheako> I wonder if this is a bug, using sizeof(int) for 32bit? Wouldn't these be over-sized on a regular x86_64?[22:43:22] <cheako> https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Samples/blob/master/samples/apps/atw/atw_vulkan.c?ts=4#L6480[22:43:56] <Ralith> o_O[22:45:17] <Ralith> cheako: "int" is 32-bit on x86_64 linux and windows[22:45:28] <Ralith> but that's still super sketchy code[22:45:50] <Ralith> the enum literally has the size written in it, why would you use a sizeof that is *less* constant[22:48:32] *** jbracey_00 <jbracey_00!~jbracey20@d60-65-103-193.col.wideopenwest.com> has joined ##vulkan[22:53:10] <baldurk> especially because they already use uint32_t elsewhere in the code[22:56:20] *** navidr <navidr!uid112413@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ndvoefxdhxmfzmhs> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)[23:02:58] *** jdashg_ <jdashg_!~jdashg@50.233.106.125> has joined ##vulkan[23:03:48] *** jdashg <jdashg!~jdashg@50.233.106.81> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[23:05:35] *** cactuz <cactuz!~cactus@0140800230.0.fullrate.ninja> has joined ##vulkan[23:22:28] *** ravior <ravior!~crapitea@79.116.102.182> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)[23:25:43] *** derhass <derhass!~derhass@dslb-088-073-237-059.088.073.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)[23:27:14] *** derhass <derhass!~derhass@ipservice-092-208-130-053.092.208.pools.vodafone-ip.de> has joined ##vulkan[23:30:41] *** nsf <nsf!~nsf@jiss.convex.ru> has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1)[23:38:00] *** ShadowIce <ShadowIce!~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)[23:46:54] *** ryp <ryp!~ryp@88.190.202.176> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)[23:48:28] *** jbracey_01 <jbracey_01!~jbracey20@d60-65-103-193.col.wideopenwest.com> has joined ##vulkan[23:49:33] *** Hunts <Hunts!~hunts@x5ce62bb4.dyn.telefonica.de> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)[23:50:23] *** jbracey_00 <jbracey_00!~jbracey20@d60-65-103-193.col.wideopenwest.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)[23:50:29] *** Hunts <Hunts!~hunts@x4e3307eb.dyn.telefonica.de> has joined ##vulkan[23:51:59] *** bjz <bjz!~bjz@14-201-122-110.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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