[00:08:16] <imMute> oh lord, 23.4 is the section that I've been missing.
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[20:12:16] <Overv> What is the reason that descriptor sets need to be allocated from descriptor pools? The Vulkan Programming Guide says "pooling the allocations used to store memory allows drivers to make efficient use of memory", but I don't buy that because that doesn't seem like a concern anywhere else in the API.
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[20:16:45] <ratchetfreak> because descriptor sets are possibly in a specific bit of the hardware
[20:18:49] <Overv> ratchetfreak: can you elaborate a bit? why does that require an explicit pool?
[20:20:20] <ratchetfreak> it's a set of pointers that need to be in very low latency memory
[20:21:35] <Overv> yes, but why does that memory need to be preallocated in a pool?
[20:21:49] <ratchetfreak> because low latency memory is in very short supply
[20:22:22] <Overv> but it doesn't seem like the driver would otherwise fill it with other stuff, since you can create a descriptor pool at any point in time in the application
[20:22:32] <Overv> or is it possible that the pool uses suboptimal memory in that case?
[20:23:02] <ratchetfreak> or the descriptor set is actual several separate bits of memory on the gpu
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[20:24:16] <ratchetfreak> like the SSBO descriptors are separate from the texture samplers
[20:24:49] <tomaka> maybe it's also because allocating a descriptor pool requires a kernel syscall or something?
[20:25:02] <tomaka> (just a hypothesis)
[20:25:15] <Overv> I see, so it's a bit like a wrapper around vkmemory allocation with very special requirements
[20:25:38] <fazias> some some hardware there is also some internal restrictions on how many of certain type of descriptors can be fit into memory on driver side
[20:27:28] <fazias> well, we can also notice that user cannot access that memory
[20:27:46] <Overv> fazias: I think in that case there would just be a device limit for it
[20:28:36] <fazias> well, I don't know but it seems like driver vendors don't want you to access or see descriptors internals
[20:29:07] <fazias> where on some hardware you could just put descriptors to buffer and load the texture pointed by the descriptor manually
[20:29:12] <ratchetfreak> they are probably paged in and out as needed when submitting the command buffer
[20:29:47] <Overv> I'm so glad that vulkan doesn't require you to be explicit about which data should be in memory like mantle :p
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[20:30:47] <fazias> making any kind of allocations runtime is a performance penalty so you should create the descriptor pools on initialisation
[20:30:53] <ratchetfreak> it kinda is, there are several memory families and specific requirements for different things
[20:32:08] <Overv> that clears things up, thanks ratchetfreak
[20:32:34] <Overv> I guess it would be a good exercise to study one of the open source drivers for vulkan
[20:32:59] <ratchetfreak> when creating a buffer or image you need to query the heap you can allocate it from
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[20:34:33] <Overv> yes, but then I would expect an analogous global descriptor pool
[20:34:54] <ratchetfreak> different layouts would need very different ways of allocating
[20:35:06] <ratchetfreak> wrapping that in a pool makes sense IMO
[20:36:19] <fazias> oh yeah, on dx12, you have 4 different descriptor heap types
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[20:36:45] <fazias> one for basic buffer/textures, rendertargets, depthstencils and lastly samplers.
[20:37:29] <fazias> and only buffers/textures and samplers have "gpu" side memory so that shaders can see them.
[20:38:21] <fazias> or well, that gpu side means that there is also descriptor heap type where you say if its staging or shader-visible
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