[00:05:04] <jbossbot> git [core] push master b564458.. Lincoln Baxter, III SEAMFORGE-302
[00:05:04] <jbossbot> jira [SEAMFORGE-302] Expose @SetupCommand and @Command("setup") for invocation when plugin constraints have not been satisfied [Closed (Done) Feature Request, Major, Lincoln Baxter III] https://issues.jboss.org/browse/SEAMFORGE-302
[00:05:05] <jbossbot> git [core] push master 5ec7eb9.. Lincoln Baxter, III SEAMFORGE-302 SEAMFORGE-319
[00:05:05] <jbossbot> jira [SEAMFORGE-319] Can not install or find any plugin [Coding In Progress (Unresolved) Bug, Major, Lincoln Baxter III] https://issues.jboss.org/browse/SEAMFORGE-319
[00:05:06] <jbossbot> git [core] push master URL: http://github.com/forge/core/compare/37624a4...5ec7eb9
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[00:08:38] <ssachtleben> hey gastaldi, its fixed
[00:08:46] <gastaldi> cool !! :D
[00:08:58] <gastaldi> just watched TAAHM
[00:09:40] 
[00:09:53] 
[00:10:23] <gastaldi> Angus had two linse in the entire episode
[00:10:25] <gastaldi> lines
[00:10:51] <ssachtleben> hehe
[00:11:57] <ssachtleben> and a fart ;D
[00:15:49] <gastaldi> lol
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[00:23:33] <ssachtleben> anyways would be nice to have the snapshot on jboss repository
[00:23:35] <lightguard_jp> No john?
[00:23:58] <ssachtleben> hey lightguard_jp jose_freitas was looking for you
[00:24:23] <lightguard_jp> ssachtleben: How long ago? :)
[00:24:44] <ssachtleben> ~2 hours
[00:24:46] <gastaldi> I doubt he is online
[00:24:51] <lightguard_jp> That's not too bad.
[00:25:00] <lightguard_jp> jose_freitas: When you're around ping me if you still have a question
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[00:27:51] <ssachtleben> lightguard_jp, could you refresh the snapshot of Seam Faces on JBoss Repository?
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[00:28:32] <lightguard_jp> um
[00:28:56] <lightguard_jp> Never pushed a snapshot, I think the jenkins jobs have been doing that.
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[00:29:41] <ssachtleben> well ok SEAMFACES-206 makes currently SNAPSHOT problems between Faces and International
[00:29:43] <jbossbot> jira [SEAMFACES-206] Deployment Exception with snapshots of Seam Faces and Seam International [Resolved (Done) Bug, Blocker, George Gastaldi] https://issues.jboss.org/browse/SEAMFACES-206
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[00:30:54] <ssachtleben> its fixed in git repo but I can only deploy here where I build Seam Faces :(
[00:31:10] <lightguard_jp> Pushing to the repo should cause a build
[00:31:26] <lightguard_jp> Unless the snapshots are only pushed at night
[00:31:38] <ssachtleben> ah ok didnt tried after
[00:34:49] <lightguard_jp> If I can find the login info I'll do another build
[00:36:25] <ssachtleben> its not fixed on the SNAPSHOT from JBoss Repo
[00:37:11] <lightguard_jp> The last nightly was about 18 hours ago
[00:37:19] <lightguard_jp> The last CI build was about 5 hours ago
[00:37:36] <ssachtleben> if it will be build in 6 hours everything is fine :p
[00:39:38] <lightguard_jp> Yeah, it'll be rebuilt later today.
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[00:39:55] <lightguard_jp> I think I have the login info somewhere, but I can't find it.
[00:39:55] <gastaldi> see ya folks !
[00:40:06] <lightguard_jp> gastaldi: later
[00:40:11] <ssachtleben> just want to make sure that I can develop my application on places where I dont have Seam Faces checked out you know
[00:40:17] <ssachtleben> cya gastaldi
[00:40:20] <ssachtleben> thanks lightguard_jp
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[00:41:52] <lightguard_jp> ssachtleben: found it, building now.
[00:42:25] <ssachtleben> nice
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[00:43:05] <ssachtleben> I would use older tags but the logging issue force me currently to use SNAPSHOTS
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[00:53:23] <lightguard_jp> rruss: ping
[00:56:03] <ssachtleben> now its fixed thanks lightguard_jp :)
[00:56:10] <lightguard_jp> ssachtleben: Excellent
[00:58:18] <ssachtleben> lightguard_jp, testcase for each modules are nice but there should be some kind of test application with all modules to see problems like this
[00:58:53] <lightguard_jp> ssachtleben: Ideally we'd have some integration stuff done by QA to catch this, but it's not there yet.
[00:59:09] <ssachtleben> ah ok nice that something is on the road
[00:59:13] <rruss> lightguard_jp: pong
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[06:10:51] <lightguard_jp> That looks better
[06:29:42] <bleathem> lightguard_jp: what looks better?
[06:30:06] <lightguard_jp> bleathem: Must have logged on during a netsplit or something.
[06:30:23] <bleathem> what's a netsplit?
[06:30:41] <bleathem> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netsplit
[06:30:42] <lightguard_jp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netsplit
[06:30:45] <lightguard_jp> hehe
[06:30:48] <bleathem> learn something new every day
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[06:38:47] <gastaldi> hey
[06:38:50] <gastaldi> Hey lightguard_jp
[06:39:13] <lightguard_jp> gastaldi: Hi George
[06:41:48] <gastaldi> that @EntityQuery idea is awesome
[06:42:22] 
[06:42:56] <lightguard_jp> Yeah, I think I saw that from Stuart once before but had forgotten about it. Very powerful
[06:43:28] <gastaldi> Yup
[06:44:11] <gastaldi> Also, the DAO could become an abstract class
[06:44:26] <gastaldi> I mean MyQuery as a DAO
[06:44:35] <gastaldi> in stuartdouglas example
[06:45:07] <gastaldi> So when something is not working right, you could implement by yourself in the same class
[06:45:24] <gastaldi> Powerful stuff indeed
[06:45:53] <lightguard_jp> That is a good idea. Please add that to conversation thread.
[06:46:00] <gastaldi> ok
[06:47:42] <gastaldi> It would be even cooler if we had only one method for querying
[06:47:53] <gastaldi> using some sort of QBE
[06:48:03] <gastaldi> on a request scope
[06:49:43] <gastaldi> and also something to allow the use of something like the Transformer feature in Hibernate
[06:50:42] <gastaldi> Like, you run a query with only one property and transform it into a List of beans
[06:50:54] <gastaldi> eg: select name from Customer
[06:51:11] <gastaldi> And you have a list of Customer where name is the only property set
[06:51:33] 
[06:53:00] <gastaldi> hum, no, I mistook the usertype feature
[06:53:21] <gastaldi> Should be on Seam Persistence somehow
[07:01:35] <nickarls> is there any demo on how to use Seam Catch for handling session expired exceptions? It appears that the side-effects can range from ConversationNotFound and ContextNotActive to IllegalStateException etc depending on what is hit first on the next request. And all sorts of redirects from the handler are not OK once the session is dead...
[07:03:10] <nickarls> and redirect can also mess up the conversationcontext state handling/lifecycle (stuff stashed away in request attrs etc)
[07:05:08] <gastaldi> ok, gotta go now
[07:05:13] <gastaldi> cya
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[14:18:54] <jbossbot> git [international] push develop f194f15.. Tomas Remes ftest migration to drone
[14:18:54] <jbossbot> git [international] push develop cd09d97.. Ken Finnigan Merge pull request #20 from tremes/migration-to-drone...
[14:18:54] <jbossbot> git [international] push develop URL: http://github.com/seam/international/compare/6c99aae...cd09d97
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[18:02:51] <lightguard_jp> bleathem: http://seamframework.org/Community/RenderScopedVSViewScoped
[18:03:00] <lightguard_jp> Spout some JSF knowledge :)
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[18:13:21] <bleathem> lightguard_jp: I'll have a look
[18:13:29] <bleathem> been a busy morning so far
[18:13:30] <bleathem> http://twitter.com/#!/brianleathem/status/116544649392427008
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[18:14:39] <lightguard_jp> sweet
[18:15:08] <clerum> very sweet
[18:15:25] <clerum> bleathem: did that jira on the rich:message height make sense?
[18:15:36] <clerum> I saw you were poking around in it last night
[18:15:49] <bleathem> clerum: it made sense - surprising though!
[18:15:58] <bleathem> I just misread it as notify by accident
[18:16:06] <bleathem> the two are quite conflated in my head
[18:16:12] <clerum> yeah I don't know how long that has been like that
[18:16:19] <bleathem> what does it look like?
[18:16:22] <clerum> I think I have just overridden it in css in the past
[18:16:24] <bleathem> must be fugly
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[18:16:55] <clerum> yep expecialy when it's inside another div and it just pushes it out
[18:17:00] <clerum> and it's usually in a form
[18:17:05] <clerum> with lots of other inputs
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[18:21:11] <clerum> bleathem: I was having issues with notify too so thats probably didn't help
[18:21:25] <bleathem> lol
[18:21:35] <bleathem> I think the time of day had a big play in that too
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[18:25:08] <clerum> any 4.1 is looking solid
[18:25:24] <clerum> anyway
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[19:34:04] <ssachtleben> good evening all
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[19:51:07] <ssachtleben> hey lincolnthree1
[19:51:33] <ssachtleben> if you have time maybe comment something here: http://www.seamframework.org/Community/SeamForgeEmptyPromptChoiceProblem
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[19:58:59] <lincolnthree1> ssachtleben: wow what a painful person :)
[19:59:59] <ssachtleben> Islam Chisty? Yeah really lightguard_jp does a brilliant job on forums
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[20:11:08] <lincolnthree1> hey guys
[20:11:12] <lincolnthree1> need a slogan for forge
[20:11:27] <lincolnthree1> Zero to Java EE - "$#@%'ing Fast!"
[20:11:45] <lincolnthree1> "Doing your dirty-work since 2010"
[20:11:51] <jose_freitas> hehhe
[20:11:55] <lincolnthree1> Ideas?
[20:13:07] <jose_freitas> your own programmer robot
[20:13:13] <ssachtleben> from zero to hero :D
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[20:15:51] <ssachtleben> next generation java development
[20:16:01] <ssachtleben> oh damn I'm very uncreative ;D
[20:16:41] <nickarls> Forge - Get your hands dirty ;-)
[20:17:09] <jose_freitas> forging code is the new industrial revolution
[20:17:45] <ssachtleben> nickarls, did you fix your problem with @ViewConfig?
[20:18:16] <nickarls> sure, I commented out the annotation! ;-)
[20:18:21] <ssachtleben> I have a similiar issue; added view config but method will not be invoked
[20:18:24] <nickarls> (have to retry tomorrow)
[20:18:44] <nickarls> see where the event/redirect gets lost
[20:18:46] <jose_freitas> smashing your boilerplate code since 2010
[20:18:53] <lincolnthree1> lol
[20:18:54] <nickarls> it works on a plain demo app, not just in my main ap
[20:18:58] <lincolnthree1> the new industrial revolution
[20:19:01] <lincolnthree1> that's awesome
[20:19:02] <ssachtleben> but I'm not sure if its a fail configuration or maybe because I use pretty faces and try to use pretty faces pattern as view config pattern
[20:19:17] <nickarls> I'm on ICEfaces
[20:19:48] <nickarls> putting any component set on top of JSF complicates a lot of stuff with exception handling, redirects, filters etc
[20:20:24] <ssachtleben> currently I use s:viewAction on each view for validating privileges and I really want to switch to view config :(
[20:21:33] <ssachtleben> ok well currently I prepare my move to another city I will check deeper next month about this problem
[20:22:57] <lincolnthree1> "Forge - The enterprise industrial revolution."
[20:23:18] <nickarls> some expectation management, please ;-)
[20:25:26] <nickarls> Forge - The Cradle of Great Software(tm)
[20:25:55] <lincolnthree1> jose_freitas: "Forge - The enterprise industrial revolution."
[20:25:56] <nickarls> Forge - Kickstarting Development since 2010
[20:26:12] <lincolnthree1> I think I like jose_freitas idea :) with a small tweak
[20:26:27] <jose_freitas> :)
[20:26:28] <jose_freitas> thanks
[20:26:35] <jose_freitas> do you want to get vinculated to jee?
[20:26:44] <lincolnthree1> vinculated?
[20:26:48] <jose_freitas> I mean
[20:26:54] <jose_freitas> forge idea
[20:26:58] <lincolnthree1> tied?
[20:26:58] *** sbryzak has joined #seam-dev
[20:26:58] <jose_freitas> to get linked to jee
[20:27:01] <jose_freitas> yeah
[20:27:02] <jose_freitas> tied
[20:27:04] <lincolnthree1> hm
[20:27:05] <lincolnthree1> maybe not
[20:27:11] <lincolnthree1> it doesn't say EE
[20:27:16] <jose_freitas> cause I think it could expand to other universes
[20:27:23] <lincolnthree1> "The web industrial revolution"
[20:27:32] <lincolnthree1> "The java industrial revolution."
[20:28:26] <lincolnthree1> "The new industrial revolution" is good too
[20:28:31] <lincolnthree1> but not sure people will know what it does
[20:28:38] <jose_freitas> web seems nice, lemme diggest it a little bit
[20:29:11] <lincolnthree1> but it's not just for web
[20:29:15] <lincolnthree1> it's also for anything
[20:29:16] <jose_freitas> true
[20:29:19] <lincolnthree1> web is too restrictive
[20:29:27] <lincolnthree1> I like new
[20:30:04] <jose_freitas> me too
[20:30:54] <lincolnthree1> "Boom. The new industrial revolution."
[20:32:46] <jose_freitas> forging the new industrial revolution
[20:32:53] <jose_freitas> na
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[20:33:53] <clerum> anybody doing anything fancy with seam security to handle your permission checks?
[20:34:08] <lincolnthree1> clerum: im trying to learn it, slowly
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[20:34:33] <clerum> this seems like it's begging to just be a produced boolean or something
[20:34:35] <clerum> rendered="#{identity.hasRole('tnAdmin','core','core')}">
[20:35:15] <clerum> adding the group type and group name strings to the check seems to have made it even more messy and less safe to refactoring
[20:35:40] 
[20:36:01] <nickarls> Forge - The new industrial evolution?
[20:36:23] <clerum> is a Boolean proxyable?
[20:36:27] <jose_freitas> doh, they're not adjectives.
[20:36:41] <clerum> with a big B
[20:36:52] <nickarls> probably final methods in it
[20:38:19] <clerum> hmm
[20:39:02] <lincolnthree1> nickarls: i like that
[20:40:22] <nickarls> Forge - probably final methods in it ;-)
[20:41:45] <ssachtleben> Forge - and you will never use spring again ;D
[20:42:30] <sbryzak> good morning all
[20:42:31] <lincolnthree1> LOL
[20:42:33] <lincolnthree1> nice
[20:42:38] <lincolnthree1> morning sbryzak
[20:42:51] <sbryzak> i must be getting over the jet lag a bit.. i managed to wake up at 4.30am
[20:42:52] <ssachtleben> hey sbryzak
[20:42:52] <jose_freitas> morning
[20:43:03] <sbryzak> yesterday it was 3.30am
[20:43:18] <clerum> Forge - for lazy peope, by lazy people
[20:43:22] <clerum> as in let forge do it for you
[20:43:33] <lincolnthree1> lol
[20:43:59] <nickarls> Forge - Counterfeiting(sp?) Code
[20:44:47] <nickarls> "Forgery is the process of making, adapting, or imitating objects, statistics, or documents with the intent to deceive"
[20:44:59] <jbossbot> git [remoting] push develop 919e580.. Jozef Hartinger SEAMREMOTING-47
[20:45:01] <jbossbot> jira [SEAMREMOTING-47] remoting examples - CNFE: TransactionInterceptor [Open (Unresolved) Bug, Major, Jozef Hartinger] https://issues.jboss.org/browse/SEAMREMOTING-47
[20:45:01] <jbossbot> git [remoting] push develop 0539793.. Shane Bryzak Merge pull request #25 from jharting/SEAMREMOTING-47...
[20:45:01] <jbossbot> git [remoting] push develop URL: http://github.com/seam/remoting/compare/8e1103d...0539793
[20:45:48] <sbryzak> for some reason i feel like bagels and scrambled eggs...
[20:46:57] <ssachtleben> Forge - Only god has more power
[20:46:58] <ssachtleben> :D
[20:49:05] <nickarls> sbryzak: hangover?
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[20:52:05] <lincolnthree1> lol
[20:52:17] <lincolnthree1> ok, we got enough ideas :) thanks guys
[20:52:37] <jose_freitas> you probably don't want to use spring at the slogan, but just for kidding: forge: from spring to summer
[20:52:41] <jose_freitas> in 60 seconds
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[21:08:51] <ssachtleben> heh yeah the spring slogan was just kidding
[21:08:57] <ssachtleben> but its true well ;D
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[21:29:59] <bleathem> lincolnthree1: do you have a minute to answer a viewconfig / rewrite qeustion in #seam?
[21:30:12] <lincolnthree1> bleathem: sure
[21:30:15] <lincolnthree1> ehh
[21:30:16] <lincolnthree1> maybe
[21:30:17] <lincolnthree1> lol
[21:30:29] <iphands> lincolnthree1: doo eeet!
[21:30:41] <lincolnthree1> hey ian!
[21:30:52] <lincolnthree1> how goes?
[21:39:23] <iphands> lincolnthree1: going great, I have some time to work with whats new in JBoss land!
[21:40:04] <lincolnthree1> sweet! hope it works for you ;)
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[23:04:57] <sbryzak> lightguard_jp: is it time to kick off the meeting?
[23:05:45] *** mojavelinux has joined #seam-dev
[23:05:45] <lightguard_jp> Yes
[23:05:49] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o lightguard_jp
[23:05:54] *** lightguard_jp sets mode: +o jbott
[23:05:57] <mojavelinux> hey everyone!
[23:06:11] <lightguard_jp> Oh voicing people... yeah, got to get on that :)
[23:06:17] <lightguard_jp> #startmeeting
[23:06:18] <jbott> Meeting started Wed Sep 21 21:03:09 2011 UTC.  The chair is lightguard_jp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
[23:06:18] <jbott> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
[23:06:58] <lightguard_jp> #meetingtopic Community Update about F2F Meeting
[23:06:59] *** jbott changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Community Update about F2F Meeting)"
[23:07:05] <lightguard_jp> Welcome everyone!
[23:07:11] <lightguard_jp> Glad to have you here this week
[23:07:23] <lightguard_jp> Good things going on in Seam! We had a great meeting last week.
[23:07:47] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o mojavelinux
[23:08:04] <sbryzak> we have a lot of updates for everyone ;)
[23:08:19] <sbryzak> the trick is knowing where to start...
[23:08:20] <lightguard_jp> Let's kick it off with general info from last week
[23:08:24] <lightguard_jp> Indeed
[23:08:34] <lightguard_jp> #topic general info from the F2F
[23:08:35] *** jbott changes topic to "general info from the F2F (Meeting topic: Community Update about F2F Meeting)"
[23:09:29] <lightguard_jp> #info Things are going really well with Seam, and people are very interested about CDI
[23:10:05] <sbryzak> i'd like to kick off by talking about what we discussed as the future focus of seam
[23:10:06] <lightguard_jp> #info we also came to some decisions about a few issues
[23:10:26] <lightguard_jp> such as logging, test structure (sorry, yes, it'll change again, but be easier)
[23:10:40] <lightguard_jp> I think the first thing really should be 3.1.0.Beta3
[23:10:45] <lightguard_jp> sbryzak: Would you like to take that one?
[23:10:50] <lightguard_jp> #topic Seam 3.1.0.Beat3
[23:10:51] *** jbott changes topic to "Seam 3.1.0.Beat3 (Meeting topic: Community Update about F2F Meeting)"
[23:10:52] <sbryzak> sure
[23:11:18] <sbryzak> but the release details actually lead on from what i just mentioned
[23:11:34] <sbryzak> so let's start with that first ;)
[23:11:55] <sbryzak> so one of the most important things we discussed at the f2f last week was about the future direction of seam
[23:11:55] <lightguard_jp> Okay.
[23:11:59] <lightguard_jp> #undo
[23:11:59] <jbott> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x1b38c10>
[23:12:00] <mojavelinux> i've prepared something for that topic
[23:12:10] <sbryzak> and what the seam brand means to people
[23:12:11] <lightguard_jp> #topic Future Focus of Seam
[23:12:11] *** jbott changes topic to "Future Focus of Seam (Meeting topic: Community Update about F2F Meeting)"
[23:12:21] <mojavelinux> can I go
[23:12:21] <sbryzak> mojavelinux: heh, do you want to go first then?
[23:12:23] <jose_freitas> good evening guys
[23:12:25] <sbryzak> go for it
[23:12:33] <mojavelinux> Ever since the Seam 3 project began, the focus had been on making it an innovation of the community.
[23:12:40] <mojavelinux> That's been accomplished by in large by having many modules designed and led by the community.
[23:12:51] <mojavelinux> On the other hand we've wrestled with how to handle projects that align closely with a jboss project such as Drools, jBPM and Infinispan.
[23:13:15] <mojavelinux> At the f2f we took a step back and came to the realization that most of the modules distributed today would receive proper attention if they were organized with the project to which they pertain.
[23:13:39] <mojavelinux> #info We decided to propose a new way to organize the Seam project so that it's not such an island. This will also complete the vision of making Seam an innovation from the community.
[23:14:00] <mojavelinux> #action Any common code that generally enhances the CDI programing model, or closes the gap in EE integration will be migrated to the new top level Solder project. (in progress)
[23:14:09] *** jharting has joined #seam-dev
[23:14:10] <mojavelinux> #info You can think of this project as an incubator for CDI spec enhancements & utilites. We are collective owners/members of this project. It includes Solder (core), Config, Catch and Servlet.
[23:14:20] <mojavelinux> #info Any module that fits with an existing JBoss project will become the CDI integration subproject of that project.
[23:14:37] <mojavelinux> #info These include Persistence to Hibernate, Transactions to Narayana, Security to PicketLink, Drools to Drools, JCR to ModeShape, JBPM to Drools, JMS to HornetQ, etc.
[23:14:47] <mojavelinux> #info This *doesn't* mean the modules become non-portable. We are simply putting the modules with the community that can support them best. Collective ownership.
[23:15:01] <sbryzak> i need to stress a point about this
[23:15:09] <mojavelinux> go on, i'm paused
[23:15:18] <sbryzak> our intent is not to fracture the strong community that we've built up around Seam
[23:15:28] <mojavelinux> yep, i'll mention that in the next line
[23:15:29] <mojavelinux> :)
[23:15:38] <sbryzak> rather, our goal is to pull those other projects more into our community
[23:15:51] <sbryzak> so that we're working across a much broader scope
[23:15:55] <mojavelinux> #info any remaining modulus become part of the Seam incubator, a community project for creating and researching CDI extensions. JBoss may actively participate in some extensions, and some not at all. It's a place where you can get exposure, feedback and collaboration for your idea.
[23:15:59] <mojavelinux> and, as shane said...
[23:16:10] <mojavelinux> we can pull those projects into the jboss community down the road
[23:16:41] <mojavelinux> you can draw a parallel with the apache incubator in a sense, though obviously with very different mechanisms
[23:16:53] <mojavelinux> #info We are not dismantling the Seam project. We are graduating some modules, shifting the ownership, and opening the door for more modules to be explored.
[23:17:06] <mojavelinux> #info To make the process more lightweight, we will end the distribution, as it never made a lot of sense anyway. The Seam team will refocus on demonstrating, through guides, how to use the functionality provided in the EE landscape using the JBoss CDI extensions and modules from the community incubator. Examples, examples, examples.
[23:17:30] <mojavelinux> 3.1 will be the last "distribution" of the kitchen sink
[23:17:44] <sbryzak> i need to point out that we won't be pushing the examples as "Seam Examples", rather "Java EE examples"
[23:17:51] <mojavelinux> it's possible there will be other types of distributions in the future, but just throwing it all into a bucket provides little value anyway
[23:17:57] <mojavelinux> yes, great point
[23:18:27] <mojavelinux> we are downplaying the Seam brand, only because it gives the impression that it's narrowly focused
[23:18:34] <sbryzak> so this actually requires some real world action on our part -
[23:18:45] <sbryzak> we'll be moving all of the examples out of the Seam project
[23:18:45] <mojavelinux> examples should be use case oriented and thus may draw from a broader range of software, inside and out of the jboss community
[23:18:54] <sbryzak> and into a new TBD location
[23:19:00] <mojavelinux> ...by doing so, we also get more resources and help
[23:19:04] <mojavelinux> :)
[23:19:09] <sbryzak> (this is actually good for us from a dependency point of view)
[23:19:32] <mojavelinux> individual modules can still have examples of course, to show off the module in a fine-grained way
[23:19:40] <mojavelinux> we are referring to the actual sample application examples
[23:19:51] <mojavelinux> right?
[23:20:06] <sbryzak> well.. imho we should be moving out all examples
[23:20:17] <sbryzak> into the new example "app store"
[23:20:24] <mojavelinux> well, perhaps we need to make a distinction between an example and a sample application
[23:20:36] <mojavelinux> an example in a module, the way I think of it is "hello, this works"
[23:20:44] <sbryzak> bottom line is, we're still fleshing out the details
[23:21:00] <mojavelinux> if it's an application, then it goes in the "app store" concept
[23:21:18] <sbryzak> does anyone have any questions about any of this so far?
[23:21:21] <lightguard_jp> :)
[23:21:25] <lightguard_jp> Was just going to ask that
[23:21:26] <mojavelinux> basically, hello world examples I think are okay for inside the modules
[23:21:37] <mojavelinux> they would gunk up a central example repo
[23:21:49] <lightguard_jp> We've thrown a big wall of text at you all. What feedback does everyone have?
[23:22:05] <sbryzak> perhaps everyone's out to lunch :)
[23:22:09] <mojavelinux> say it loud and proud
[23:23:03] <lightguard_jp> ssachtleben: hannelita jose_freitas clerum Anything?
[23:23:35] <ssachtleben> sounds great but not sure what you mean about app store? application about choosing examples or what?
[23:23:41] <clerum> I don't think the mail example is nesssary
[23:23:44] *** edburns is now known as edburns_away
[23:23:49] <clerum> should be shown as part of a larger example
[23:23:51] <clerum> and in the docs
[23:23:57] <clerum> in my opinion
[23:24:03] <mojavelinux> never mind we said "app store", that's just to give you an idea of a central place for examples of how to use EE and JBoss software
[23:24:06] <sbryzak> ssachtleben: the example "app store" is an idea we came up with
[23:24:19] <mojavelinux> we aren't launching anything atm :)
[23:24:28] <sbryzak> it's basically an online site where you can pick an example you want to look at
[23:24:31] <mojavelinux> right
[23:24:36] <sbryzak> and it gets deployed to openshift for you
[23:24:38] <ssachtleben> ah ok nice
[23:24:41] <mojavelinux> trailblazers
[23:24:47] <sbryzak> good for checking out an example without having to build it yourself
[23:25:11] <hannelita> sorry, I was afk
[23:25:29] <ssachtleben> yeah I really miss some showcase stuff on seam
[23:25:29] <sbryzak> hannelita: bit of light reading for you if you scroll back
[23:26:00] <sbryzak> ssachtleben: it's our goal to bring that back, but not just for Seam
[23:26:15] <ssachtleben> really great point
[23:26:20] <sbryzak> so if there's no further questions on that topic, let's move on
[23:26:40] <sbryzak> i believe the next topic was logging
[23:26:48] <lightguard_jp> logging or Beta3
[23:26:50] <sbryzak> however ken isn't here
[23:26:56] <lightguard_jp> Which would you like to tackle first?
[23:26:57] <hannelita> sbryzak: reading
[23:27:00] <sbryzak> oh yeah, let's talk about beta3
[23:27:06] <lightguard_jp> #topic Seam 3.1.0.Beta3
[23:27:07] *** jbott changes topic to "Seam 3.1.0.Beta3 (Meeting topic: Community Update about F2F Meeting)"
[23:27:30] <sbryzak> so, in light of the updated focus of the seam project, we've gone ahead and made some changes to the modules
[23:27:47] <sbryzak> as was mentioned, Solder is to become a top level JBoss project in its own right
[23:27:58] <lightguard_jp> #info As many of you know 3.1.0.Beta1 was a mess, unfortunately 3.1.0.Beta2 was only slightly better, and still has some tough bugs that have been fixed
[23:28:02] <sbryzak> so it's required a refactor into the org.jboss.solder package
[23:28:11] <lightguard_jp> In addition to what Shane is saying :)
[23:28:18] <sbryzak> we're also moving config, catch and servlet modules into Solder
[23:28:27] <sbryzak> as we consider them to be core to any application development
[23:28:41] <sbryzak> this will greatly simplify the dependencies for developers
[23:28:59] <sbryzak> and slightly reduce the maintenance burden as a result of having less modules
[23:29:20] <mojavelinux> as we can distribute a solder.jar
[23:29:20] <sbryzak> so with that in mind, we've decided to release a beta3 for Seam 3.1 in the next week or so
[23:30:02] <sbryzak> having an additional beta release is required, as the changes we are making are so disruptive
[23:30:04] <mojavelinux> so you can either use solder-core-api, solder-core-impl, solder-config-xml, etc etc, or just solder.jar
[23:30:29] <lightguard_jp> We're also thinking about a shaded solder jar for all those things
[23:30:33] <mojavelinux> not to open the shading can of worms, you can instead think of it as a distribution of the core functionality
[23:30:34] <lightguard_jp> Maybe called solder-web
[23:30:43] <mojavelinux> right, that's why I was saying solder.jar
[23:31:06] <sbryzak> i'm still not sure if the shaded jar idea will work, but we can look at it more next week
[23:31:18] <mojavelinux> or, I guess I should put it another way
[23:31:26] <mojavelinux> we will have one dep you can include that will get all the functionality
[23:31:27] <sbryzak> the rest of the modules will be included in the 3.1 bundled release as normal
[23:31:33] <lincolnthree1> hi all
[23:31:34] <lincolnthree1> catching up
[23:31:35] <mojavelinux> that may be transitive or shaded, but either way, we can keep it lean
[23:31:42] <lightguard_jp> #info the rest of the modules will be included in the 3.1 bundled release as normal
[23:31:53] <lightguard_jp> #info We're going to be doing another beta in a week or two
[23:31:57] <rruss> lincolnthree1: good luck ;)
[23:32:01] <lightguard_jp> Sorry, just making sure things show up in the minutes
[23:32:04] <sbryzak> mojavelinux: my concern is how that will work with the dependencies that other modules have on solder
[23:32:12] <lincolnthree1> rruss: where's my email!!!!! ;) jk
[23:32:19] <jose_freitas> sorry lightguard_jp, I could read all the messages yet
[23:32:31] * rruss frick
[23:32:32] <lightguard_jp> jose_freitas: np
[23:32:52] <sbryzak> any questions about the beta3 release?
[23:32:54] <hannelita> guys, Im at work, cant help you during this meeting :(
[23:33:25] <lightguard_jp> Okay, next up
[23:33:30] <mojavelinux> no problem hanneli feel free to comment on the list if you have feedback later
[23:33:33] <lightguard_jp> #topic testing structure
[23:33:33] *** jbott changes topic to "testing structure (Meeting topic: Community Update about F2F Meeting)"
[23:33:42] <lightguard_jp> We sent this out to the mailing list.
[23:33:51] <rruss> hannelita: you can review the conversation and provide feedback on the seam-dev mailing list
[23:34:02] <lightguard_jp> #info With some feedback from aslak we've decided on something a little easier
[23:34:40] <lightguard_jp> #info the testsuite will continue, but all tests will be there and separated according to container via package.
[23:34:53] <lightguard_jp> #info then a user can issue a test against a container via profile
[23:35:07] <lightguard_jp> #info weld embedded will be default
[23:35:25] <lightguard_jp> I'm working on Catch right now as an example
[23:35:48] <mojavelinux> both aslak and jozef agreed that we should not be creating a plethora of subprojects just because maven can't run the test phase multiple times for each container
[23:36:31] <mojavelinux> instead, we should optimize for developer usability, then either fix maven (with a patched version of surefire to support multiple executions for each profile that may get accepted upstream) or plan to land on gradle
[23:36:52] <ssachtleben> And the integration test is important. At least there should be a check that all modules can be deployed together without exceptions
[23:37:20] <mojavelinux> that will be part of the examples...they will be required to have thorough integration and UI tests
[23:37:32] <lightguard_jp> #info Also Jenkins will be running each profile
[23:37:39] <mojavelinux> so that covers the cross section of modules, and even features outside of cdi, such as using Hibernate Search with Seam Persistence, etc
[23:37:46] <lightguard_jp> So it'll get caught each night if there's an issue with a container
[23:37:51] <mojavelinux> yep
[23:38:00] <mojavelinux> it's also possible to do
[23:38:15] <mojavelinux> mvn test -Pweld-ee-embedded && mvn test -Pjbossas-remote-6 && mvn ...
[23:38:56] <mojavelinux> we could make that into a script if we determine it's a necessity
[23:39:06] <ssachtleben> but if jenkins fail on build who will check which commit fails on cross-check and contact the commiter?
[23:39:27] <mojavelinux> you mean for the integration tests across modules?
[23:39:34] <ssachtleben> yeah
[23:39:36] <mojavelinux> we would have that same problem today, no different
[23:40:40] <lightguard_jp> Any questions about testing?
[23:40:41] <ssachtleben> thats why I thought about cross check before commit
[23:40:41] <mojavelinux> i agree, important, but these changes don't change what needs to be done
[23:40:45] <ssachtleben> just an idea
[23:40:46] <maschmid> ssachtleben, QA will
[23:41:03] <mojavelinux> it's a good idea, and something that we should track as an indicator of stability
[23:41:40] <lightguard_jp> I think the next topic is Dan's
[23:41:45] <lightguard_jp> #topic migration guide effort
[23:41:46] *** jbott changes topic to "migration guide effort (Meeting topic: Community Update about F2F Meeting)"
[23:43:01] <lightguard_jp> mojavelinux: you there?
[23:43:02] <mojavelinux> got it
[23:43:04] <lightguard_jp> Okay :)
[23:43:18] <mojavelinux> as you are all well aware, we've been chatting about migration for quite some time
[23:43:32] <mojavelinux> I'll repeat what I said at the meeting
[23:43:57] <mojavelinux> i've been reluctant to pitching a migration because we still had ground to make up to actually have a full migration story
[23:44:04] <mojavelinux> that gap is very close to being closed at this point
[23:44:32] <mojavelinux> and a migration strategy is now on the critical path because it affects adoption of EE 6 for many community and customer users alike
[23:45:10] <lightguard_jp> I think the big take away from the meeting about this one:
[23:45:11] <mojavelinux> it should go without saying that something that affects the products gets a lot of attention :)
[23:45:17] <mojavelinux> so, that said
[23:45:19] <lightguard_jp> #info we have a plan  to get this done
[23:45:28] <mojavelinux> we want to do a migration plan, and that entailed what and how
[23:45:30] <mojavelinux> so, the what
[23:45:34] <lightguard_jp> #info We have use cases, and also some help from various community members
[23:45:53] <mojavelinux> #info the migration plan is about Seam 2 to Java EE 6 with some add-ons provided by CDI extensions
[23:45:57] <mojavelinux> so it's not Seam 2 to Seam 3
[23:46:13] <mojavelinux> more like Seam 2 to Seam 3 via Java EE 6
[23:46:17] <mojavelinux> or however you want to think of it
[23:46:26] <mojavelinux> second, the how
[23:46:51] <mojavelinux> #info several people, including Jozef, have notes about migration which we will accumulate on a migration page
[23:47:00] <mojavelinux> I think we already have a page, so we just need to find it and revive it
[23:47:12] <mojavelinux> if you are doing a migration, please add anything that you had to do that isn't listed on this page
[23:47:36] <ssachtleben> http://seamframework.org/Seam3/Seam2ToSeam3MigrationNotes
[23:47:37] <mojavelinux> then, we just need to assign someone to lead up getting this guide written
[23:47:41] <clerum> I've got some notes going
[23:47:48] <mojavelinux> yep, I got your notes cody
[23:47:58] <mojavelinux> we'll get them migrated to this page
[23:48:00] <clerum> it really is incorperates richfaces too
[23:48:06] <mojavelinux> also, there's another important part of this guide
[23:48:12] <mojavelinux> it helps us find out what is missing still
[23:48:16] <clerum> since seam 2 was really viewed as the whole seam + rf + hibernate
[23:48:20] <bleathem> did I hear richfaces?
[23:48:24] <clerum> which have all had some amount of change
[23:48:30] <mojavelinux> brian's bot works :)
[23:48:35] <bleathem> ;)
[23:48:47] <mojavelinux> one of the things we realized is that mail is a critical module and needs to be distributed
[23:49:00] <mojavelinux> because there is absolutely no migration path for Seam 2 users without it
[23:49:00] <bleathem> yes, mail = important
[23:49:02] <ssachtleben> I think cron too
[23:49:26] <clerum> also since we dropped ui components
[23:49:30] <mojavelinux> cron is important, but not as critical as mail...by critical i mean, when they find out it isn't there, they are going to freak out
[23:49:35] <ssachtleben> every bigger application needs to clean up stuff with cronjobs
[23:49:36] <lightguard_jp> Cron is important, but we may be able to get people to use EJB timers and async.
[23:49:40] <clerum> we should publish example composite components for s:div, s:decorate
[23:49:41] <clerum> etc..
[23:49:48] <stuartdouglas> I don't know about cron, EE6 @Schedule and timer service does the same job
[23:49:52] <mojavelinux> yes, we do have that info, just need to get it published
[23:49:55] <clerum> with very simple step by step
[23:49:58] <lightguard_jp> Part of what we can't do is slip on our Final delivery much more :(
[23:50:03] <ssachtleben> yes true mojavelinux mail is more important but cron should be also focused after
[23:50:05] <mojavelinux> one big issue in EE 6
[23:50:14] <mojavelinux> is that there is no way to do async in the web profile
[23:50:15] <mojavelinux> period
[23:50:28] <clerum> also one really big issue that users are going to have is the loss of Jboss EL
[23:50:33] <mojavelinux> so, any solution for async requires the full profile, or a web profile++
[23:50:36] <clerum> moving from 2 - > EE6
[23:50:52] <bleathem> mojavelinux: have the web profile providers not included @Echedule in their EJB containers?
[23:50:55] <mojavelinux> cody, we need to touch base about that, because I think most of that should be covered
[23:50:58] <bleathem> ^@Schedule
[23:51:06] <mojavelinux> but I'm open to getting to the bottom of what is missing
[23:51:14] <lightguard_jp> bleathem: I don't think it's required for EJB Lite
[23:51:17] <bleathem> JAX-RS isn't in web profile either, but many have included it
[23:51:27] <mojavelinux> the web profile does not support EJB timers and does not provide access to a ThreadPool
[23:51:33] <mojavelinux> so there is no safe way of doing async in the web profile
[23:51:40] <mojavelinux> oh yeah, no JMS either
[23:51:43] <bleathem> ok, that's a definite answer
[23:51:51] <clerum> mojavelinux: ok. the migaration so far has been painful with not having static methods and ability to do a size on a collection in EL
[23:51:56] <mojavelinux> but, certainly something we can say works in JBoss AS
[23:52:01] <clerum> it's all possible just reqires rewrites
[23:52:08] <mojavelinux> EL should allow size()
[23:52:22] <clerum> not on a collection
[23:52:28] <clerum> empty or not empty
[23:52:30] <mojavelinux> static methods are no supported, because the EL lead didnt' understand the requirement even though I explained it 10 times
[23:52:34] <clerum> or fn:length(blah)
[23:52:51] <mojavelinux> it's good that functions are elminiated imho
[23:52:58] <mojavelinux> I think they should be done with a utility bean
[23:53:11] <mojavelinux> strings.length(blah)
[23:53:22] <mojavelinux> books.size() == 0
[23:53:24] <clerum> easier if there were statics :-)
[23:53:26] <mojavelinux> I get what you are saying, though
[23:53:40] <mojavelinux> about the size()
[23:53:46] <clerum> that isn't there currently
[23:53:49] <mojavelinux> now I know what you are talking about, it was seamlessly integrated
[23:53:53] <clerum> unless I'm going something wrong
[23:54:01] <mojavelinux> size() should work, because you can call arbitrary methods
[23:54:05] <mojavelinux> but yes, this is a migration guide issue
[23:54:12] <mojavelinux> and we may need to backfill a few utiltiies
[23:54:13] <clerum> during migration I get tons of blowups because I can't do users.size() == 0
[23:54:21] <clerum> or something like that
[23:54:24] <clerum> k
[23:54:54] <clerum> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1332169/how-do-you-call-list-size-from-a-jsf-2-0-facelets-template
[23:55:30] <clerum> anyway it's going to be very noticible for people that started out in seam 2
[23:55:34] <clerum> and had it just work
[23:55:46] <ssachtleben> yes I had the problem also on beginning
[23:56:25] <ssachtleben> but found very fast the fn lib which works fine on collections
[23:56:47] <mojavelinux> okay, so we are getting too detailed here, let's keep this going on the migration discussion on the list or forums
[23:56:57] <mojavelinux> okay, so we have a plan for the migration guide...I think we need something by Nov
[23:56:59] <lightguard_jp> I think we've actually covered everything we wanted to (last topic is gradle prototyping and future plans)
[23:57:20] <mojavelinux> let's go with gradle
[23:57:22] <lincolnthree1> lightguard_jp: if you are moving to gradle, would love if someone would try to get that working with forge :)
[23:57:25] <mojavelinux> topic
[23:57:54] <lightguard_jp> lincolnthree1: Yeah, been thinking about it.
[23:58:05] <lightguard_jp> mojavelinux: A new topic?
[23:58:11] <lightguard_jp> mojavelinux: use #topic
[23:58:11] <mojavelinux> yep
[23:58:18] <mojavelinux> #topic Adoption of Gradle
[23:58:21] <lightguard_jp> #chair mojavelinux
[23:58:22] <jbott> Current chairs: lightguard_jp mojavelinux
[23:58:25] <lightguard_jp> Try it again :)
[23:58:30] <mojavelinux> #topic Adoption of Gradle
[23:58:31] *** jbott changes topic to "Adoption of Gradle (Meeting topic: Community Update about F2F Meeting)"
[23:58:32] <lightguard_jp> #chair sbryzak
[23:58:33] <jbott> Current chairs: lightguard_jp mojavelinux sbryzak
[23:58:37] <lightguard_jp> There we go
[23:58:51] <lincolnthree1> lightguard_jp: Gradle support in forge should be as straightforward as implemting about 7 interfaces :) about 20 methods total I think.
[23:59:04] <lightguard_jp> #info we're looking at gradle, but nothing will be final until after the 3.1.0.Final release.
[23:59:44] <lincolnthree1> If forge can support gradle, then both gradle and forge can probably support anything
[23:59:53] <sbryzak> right, we plan to use gradle, but not until after 3.1 is out
[23:59:56] <lightguard_jp> You may see some prototypes or additional branches being pushed between now and Final.





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