June 29, 2013 
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June 29, 2013 [00:02:15] *** jarif has quit IRC[00:10:08] *** larsmw has quit IRC[00:14:07] *** gu1lle_1 has quit IRC[00:24:38] *** master_o1_master has quit IRC[00:25:16] *** jarif has joined #postfix[00:26:22] *** master_of_master has joined #postfix[00:28:59] *** UQlev has quit IRC[00:41:11] *** micols_ has quit IRC[00:41:37] *** micols has joined #postfix[01:00:34] *** Toerkeium has quit IRC[01:01:48] *** ced117 has quit IRC[01:03:08] *** daemon has quit IRC[01:04:06] *** NOTHING4YOU is now known as Nothing4You[01:06:12] *** daemon has joined #postfix[01:12:37] *** maxmahem has quit IRC[01:16:14] *** snearch has quit IRC[01:28:11] *** jarif has quit IRC[01:31:51] *** Guuest45818 has joined #postfix[01:32:40] <Guuest45818> may I ask if anyone here is familiar with postfixadmin?[01:33:18] <thumbs> Guuest45818: not supported here.[01:33:25] <thumbs> !tell Guuest45818 postfixadmin[01:33:25] <knoba> Guuest45818: "postfixadmin" : used for managing email accounts through a web interface (http://high5.net/postfixadmin/). Further, this channel is for issues regarding postfix. For postfixadmin support, please try the postfixadmin mailing list or the postfixadmin channel.[01:34:06] <Guuest45818> I know know another channel. thank you thumbs[01:34:36] *** danblack has joined #postfix[01:36:55] *** Southron has joined #postfix[01:36:56] *** Southron has joined #postfix[01:37:29] <Guuest45818> Hi Southron[01:38:55] <Southron> Hi.[01:42:30] *** fireglow has quit IRC[01:42:34] *** wald00 has quit IRC[01:42:44] *** wald00 has joined #postfix[01:42:49] *** fireglow has joined #postfix[01:45:08] *** donmichelangelo has quit IRC[01:45:25] *** Guuest45818 has quit IRC[01:45:53] *** donmichelangelo has joined #postfix[01:47:17] *** Blacklite has quit IRC[01:51:13] *** Blacklite has joined #postfix[01:55:52] *** wdp_ has quit IRC[01:59:27] *** wald00 has quit IRC[02:01:57] *** HaxCore has quit IRC[02:21:01] *** danblack has quit IRC[02:32:09] *** Bry8Star has quit IRC[02:36:59] *** Southron_ has joined #postfix[02:38:41] *** ChadLepto has quit IRC[02:39:22] *** Southron has quit IRC[02:39:23] *** Southron_ is now known as Southron[02:44:07] *** ChadLepto has joined #postfix[02:46:41] *** Southron_ has joined #postfix[02:46:42] *** Southron_ has joined #postfix[02:46:55] *** Bry8Star has joined #postfix[02:49:10] *** ChadLepto has quit IRC[02:49:10] *** Southron has quit IRC[02:49:10] *** Southron_ is now known as Southron[02:49:35] *** reddog1 has quit IRC[02:54:42] *** ChadLepto has joined #postfix[03:01:08] *** Southron_ has joined #postfix[03:01:08] *** Southron_ has joined #postfix[03:02:45] *** Kellin_ has left #postfix[03:02:49] *** Southron has quit IRC[03:02:50] *** Kellin has joined #postfix[03:02:54] *** Kellin has joined #postfix[03:33:27] *** shinao1 has quit IRC[03:38:35] *** tmberg has quit IRC[03:44:21] *** danblack has joined #postfix[04:20:44] *** Bronze has quit IRC[05:03:54] *** donmichelangelo has quit IRC[05:04:05] *** donmichelangelo has joined #postfix[05:11:01] *** danblack has quit IRC[05:13:58] *** danblack has joined #postfix[05:29:09] *** danblack has quit IRC[06:00:28] *** donmichelangelo has quit IRC[06:00:58] *** donmichelangelo has joined #postfix[06:11:45] *** fogus has quit IRC[06:17:05] *** wald00 has joined #postfix[06:25:33] *** fogus has joined #postfix[06:48:36] *** buhman has joined #postfix[06:48:38] <buhman> Jun 28 23:47:20 localhost postfix/smtpd[6221]: NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from mail-qa0-f51.google.com[209.85.216.51]: 454 4.7.1 <zack at buhman dot org>: Relay access denied; from=<zbuhman at gmail dot com> to=<zack at buhman dot org> proto=ESMTP helo=<mail-qa0-f51.google.com>[06:48:48] <buhman> 'zack' is a local user; how can I fix delivery?[06:58:27] *** fogus has left #postfix[07:01:37] *** buhman has quit IRC[07:19:28] *** Blacklite has quit IRC[07:20:11] *** magyar has quit IRC[07:20:42] *** Blacklite has joined #postfix[07:40:00] *** sanmarcos has joined #postfix[07:40:07] *** krisfremen has quit IRC[07:40:18] <sanmarcos> I am getting an infinite loop when sending email from one of my virutal domains to the other[07:40:32] <sanmarcos> 554 5.4.0 Error: too many hops, any ideas?[07:48:43] <sanmarcos> ok, I see what is happening, I am using header_checks to use a different relay host[07:49:43] *** krisfremen has joined #postfix[07:49:43] *** krisfremen has joined #postfix[07:55:07] *** patdk-wk_ has quit IRC[07:58:01] *** patdk-wk_ has joined #postfix[07:58:04] *** krisfremen has quit IRC[07:58:20] *** krisfremen has joined #postfix[07:58:20] *** krisfremen has joined #postfix[08:01:09] *** e66 has quit IRC[08:10:39] *** internat has quit IRC[08:15:50] *** internat has joined #postfix[08:28:19] *** Guest02377-50092 has joined #postfix[08:28:54] *** internat has quit IRC[08:41:27] *** v0lZy has joined #postfix[08:49:34] *** UQlev has joined #postfix[08:51:00] *** v0lZy has quit IRC[08:51:33] *** danblack has joined #postfix[08:52:45] *** jarif has joined #postfix[09:04:00] *** wald00 has quit IRC[09:14:27] *** ghoti_ has joined #postfix[09:15:04] *** UQlev has quit IRC[09:15:38] *** Praise- has joined #postfix[09:16:09] *** morse_ has joined #postfix[09:17:53] *** [dmp]_ has joined #postfix[09:17:54] *** [dmp]_ has joined #postfix[09:18:10] *** SWAT_ has joined #postfix[09:18:10] *** multi_io_ has joined #postfix[09:18:31] *** SWAT has quit IRC[09:18:33] *** ghoti has quit IRC[09:18:33] *** xDamox has quit IRC[09:18:33] *** [dmp] has quit IRC[09:18:33] *** jimpop has quit IRC[09:18:37] *** multi_io has quit IRC[09:18:39] *** donmichelangelo has quit IRC[09:18:41] *** Praise has quit IRC[09:18:42] *** morse has quit IRC[09:18:42] *** jimpop has joined #postfix[09:18:43] *** jimpop has quit IRC[09:18:43] *** jimpop has joined #postfix[09:18:44] *** donmichelangelo has joined #postfix[09:19:10] *** xDamox has joined #postfix[09:20:19] *** ghoti_ has quit IRC[09:21:08] *** Cromulent has joined #postfix[09:21:29] *** ghoti has joined #postfix[09:27:13] *** ghoti has quit IRC[09:27:46] *** ghoti has joined #postfix[09:32:19] *** wdp has joined #postfix[09:32:20] *** wdp has joined #postfix[09:32:59] *** ghoti has quit IRC[09:33:43] *** ghoti has joined #postfix[09:39:13] *** ghoti has quit IRC[09:39:59] *** ghoti has joined #postfix[09:45:27] *** ghoti has quit IRC[09:46:02] *** ghoti has joined #postfix[09:47:41] *** v0lZy has joined #postfix[10:08:38] *** Cromulent has quit IRC[10:10:44] *** jarif has quit IRC[10:29:38] *** Dessa has quit IRC[10:29:52] *** Dessa has joined #postfix[10:31:26] *** krisfremen has quit IRC[10:31:42] *** krisfremen has joined #postfix[10:31:42] *** krisfremen has joined #postfix[10:38:28] *** CCK has joined #postfix[10:41:06] *** jefferai has quit IRC[10:41:31] *** jefferai has joined #postfix[10:45:26] *** jefferai has quit IRC[10:45:54] *** jefferai has joined #postfix[10:46:42] *** Arhur70 has joined #postfix[10:46:46] <Arhur70> hi[10:47:12] <Arhur70> is there a way to forward a mail in the queue to a different recipients?[10:50:02] <adaptr> not really. can you explain more ?[11:00:12] *** donmichelangelo has quit IRC[11:00:37] *** donmichelangelo has joined #postfix[11:02:19] *** CCK has left #postfix[11:02:39] *** CommaCrazy has joined #postfix[11:02:43] <CommaCrazy> hi all[11:03:09] <CommaCrazy> I got a question, I am getting connection refused on al mails[11:03:29] <CommaCrazy> I googled and it has to do with amavis which is not running[11:03:41] <CommaCrazy> I tried starting it but it does not want to start[11:03:50] <adaptr> !tell CommaCrazy welcome[11:03:50] <knoba> CommaCrazy: "welcome" : welcome to #postfix! if you're joining for the first time, or are new to irc, the first thing you'll want to do is read the channel topic (/topic). it includes crucial instructions on how to effectively ask for help here, and what data you should include with your questions. the degree of success you'll have is directly related to how effectively you're able to follow those guidelines.[11:04:00] <CommaCrazy> and !welcome[11:04:04] <CommaCrazy> !welcome[11:04:04] <knoba> CommaCrazy: "welcome" : welcome to #postfix! if you're joining for the first time, or are new to irc, the first thing you'll want to do is read the channel topic (/topic). it includes crucial instructions on how to effectively ask for help here, and what data you should include with your questions. the degree of success you'll have is directly related to how effectively you're able to follow those guidelines.[11:09:57] <Arhur70> adaptr: looks like I find a way to do it using postcat[11:10:19] <adaptr> Arhur70: that sounds horribly bad[11:10:22] <CommaCrazy> hello again, http://pastebin.com/MGUqu0Jh I am having problems, I got 942 mails in queue and amavis does not want to start, in mailq I get (delivery temporarily suspended: connect to 127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1]:10024: Connection refused) for each mail[11:10:30] <Arhur70> poscat -q id |sed -n '/MESSAGE CONTENTS/,$p' | grep -v "MESSAGE CONTENTS"| sendmail user@domain[11:10:57] <adaptr> and the queued message ?[11:11:11] <CommaCrazy> ?[11:11:11] <Arhur70> remains in the queue[11:11:11] <adaptr> !tell Arhur70 goal[11:11:12] <knoba> Arhur70: "goal" : describe your goal, not what you think the solution is[11:11:17] <CommaCrazy> oh sry[11:11:42] <adaptr> CommaCrazy: inspect the amavisd logs, and see why it doesn't start[11:11:51] <adaptr> that really isn't a postfix issue[11:11:58] <Arhur70> goal is forward deferred mail to a different recipients[11:12:14] <Arhur70> and mantain original mail in the queue[11:12:21] <adaptr> you did not say that[11:12:27] <CommaCrazy> I posted part of the log after postconf -n output and I tried googling before I asked here[11:12:47] <adaptr> CommaCrazy: when apache does not start, will you ask here too ? :)[11:13:09] <Arhur70> yes, my request was clear as mud[11:13:15] <CommaCrazy> no ofcourse I'll restart apache[11:13:18] <CommaCrazy> and it will work[11:13:33] <adaptr> there you go[11:14:01] <adaptr> Arhur70: again, why would you want to forward mail that has already been queued[11:14:06] <CommaCrazy> tried restarting amavis and it does not want to start[11:14:23] <adaptr> this still smells like the wrong solution to some other problem. what is that REAL problem ?[11:14:28] <Arhur70> adaptr: because it's deferred[11:14:37] <adaptr> CommaCrazy: so ask in an amavsid-new support channel[11:14:49] <adaptr> Arhur70: that is not an answer.[11:14:51] *** NightTrain has joined #postfix[11:15:06] <Arhur70> temporarily deferred and meanwhile customer need to receive it in another mailbox[11:15:31] <adaptr> if the mail could not be delivered, why isn't it sent to the other mailbox in the first place ?[11:15:38] <adaptr> WHY was it deferred ?[11:16:31] <CommaCrazy> adaptr: I tried asking in #amavis but with no use. this channel is my only hope, and I'm still googling (for the past hour)[11:16:38] <Arhur70> adaptr: because destination server is down[11:16:50] <adaptr> CommaCrazy: that's not the point. it is the wrong channel.[11:17:08] <adaptr> Arhur70: and you want to send deferred mail to another RECIPIENT because...[11:17:17] *** KippiX has joined #postfix[11:17:29] <adaptr> my questions should make it obvious that this is a very weird thing to do[11:19:23] <adaptr> Arhur70: why do you want to send deferred mail to another recipient ? if the destination comes back up, it will be delivered fine.[11:26:26] *** Cromulent has joined #postfix[11:27:51] *** KippiX has quit IRC[11:34:17] *** KippiX has joined #postfix[11:39:08] *** Arhur70 has quit IRC[11:51:29] *** Phoenixz has quit IRC[11:56:49] *** KippiX has quit IRC[11:59:40] <CommaCrazy> fixed it[12:00:22] <CommaCrazy> ty anyways adaptr[12:01:30] <CommaCrazy> and it seems that Arhur70 wanted to spy on all the e-mails[12:01:31] *** ced117 has joined #postfix[12:06:01] *** CommaCrazy has quit IRC[12:07:12] *** Praise- has quit IRC[12:07:20] *** Praise has joined #postfix[12:12:24] *** shinao1 has joined #postfix[12:31:37] *** UQlev has joined #postfix[12:36:29] *** UQlev has quit IRC[12:37:15] *** UQlev has joined #postfix[13:04:55] *** UQlev has quit IRC[13:12:46] *** Cromulent has quit IRC[13:53:29] *** Bry8Star has quit IRC[14:00:05] *** shal3r has quit IRC[14:02:15] *** UQlev has joined #postfix[14:04:37] *** tharkun has quit IRC[14:09:26] *** mibofra has joined #postfix[14:09:26] *** mibofra has joined #postfix[14:10:08] *** shal3r has joined #postfix[14:10:21] *** tharkun has joined #postfix[14:12:04] *** shinao1 has quit IRC[14:19:03] *** mibofra has quit IRC[14:23:40] *** Bronze has joined #postfix[14:35:01] *** mibofra has joined #postfix[15:21:00] *** robinho86 has quit IRC[15:32:56] *** snearch has joined #postfix[15:51:59] *** xstation has joined #postfix[15:57:44] <xstation> I have installed postfix on debian squeeze and wish to enable tls - i have created the key and cert and placed the lines in /etc/postfix and in the main.cf-- however when postfix is reloaded i get warning: No server certs available. TLS won't be enabled[15:59:19] <UQlev> xstation, show your config[16:00:04] <xstation> UQlev: you mean the the main.cf file[16:00:18] <UQlev> xstation, postcconf -n[16:00:25] <UQlev> xstation, postconf -n[16:00:28] <xstation> ok just a sec[16:04:11] <xstation> UQlev: http://pastebin.com/NU30aERq[16:05:41] <UQlev> xstation, may be because some syntax error new config is not loaded. show please main.cf[16:07:01] <xstation> ok just a sec[16:07:13] <UQlev> and also show "ls -l /etc/postfix/*"[16:10:55] <UQlev> odd, this shows that TLS is enabled http://www.mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=smtp%3a206.253.166.204&run=toolpage[16:14:17] <xstation> http://pastebin.com/p14ai7Hs[16:17:18] <UQlev> and also show "ls -l /etc/postfix/*"[16:17:38] <xstation> http://pastebin.com/uRzKDdee[16:22:19] <adaptr> xstation: TLS should not be supported on port 25[16:22:29] <adaptr> what problem are you trying to solve ?[16:22:45] <xstation> if you try to telnet then give the EHLO command then STARTTLS does not seem to say its ok[16:23:30] <UQlev> xstation, 250-STARTTLS[16:23:47] <xstation> how strange[16:23:54] <adaptr> xstation: TLS does not belong on port 25. you should use submission.[16:24:09] <xstation> http://pastebin.com/PZV4vRbU[16:24:13] <xstation> ok[16:24:21] <xstation> yes maybe thats it[16:25:10] <UQlev> xstation, TLS seems enabled but you have no authentication. SASL is not working yet[16:25:49] <xstation> ok thanks[16:25:58] <xstation> I will reconfigure[16:26:43] <UQlev> adaptr, server-to-server also sometime use TLS. Is it wrong?[16:27:12] <xstation> is what wrong[16:27:35] <UQlev> I mean TLS on smtp port 25[16:28:00] <xstation> ok i see[16:28:05] <xstation> not sure[16:29:23] <adaptr> UQlev: I doubt he wants or needs that[16:30:15] *** donmichelangelo has quit IRC[16:30:37] *** donmichelangelo has joined #postfix[16:31:01] <UQlev> adaptr, I have got your idea, next step is sasl. But so far I see nothing wrong with TLS on port 25[16:31:47] <xstation> yes that strange there is no sasl in /etc/postfix[16:32:28] <UQlev> xstation, in your config there is NOTHING[16:32:49] <xstation> thats whay I mean[16:32:55] <xstation> what[16:33:04] <adaptr> UQlev: I doubt he wants or needs that[16:33:27] <adaptr> best to get things working properly from a user perspective before venturing further[16:34:26] <xstation> ok --i will do that -thanks for feedback[16:34:31] *** xstation has quit IRC[16:52:03] *** UQlev has quit IRC[17:11:29] *** krisfremen has quit IRC[17:15:37] *** krisfremen has joined #postfix[17:15:37] *** krisfremen has joined #postfix[17:15:55] *** p3rror has joined #postfix[17:30:53] *** waldi has joined #postfix[17:48:01] *** tmberg has joined #postfix[18:07:48] *** UQlev has joined #postfix[18:27:32] <v0lZy> hi[18:30:35] <v0lZy> what do I set as mydestination if i dont want any local email? (I only want virtual domains)[18:31:54] <lunaphyte> you don't set it[18:32:08] <lunaphyte> or you can unset it[18:32:16] <v0lZy> so i just do mydestination =[18:32:21] <v0lZy> or just comment it out?[18:32:32] <lunaphyte> i'd unset it[18:32:38] <lunaphyte> mydestination =[18:33:31] <v0lZy> I suppose i do the same for local_recipient maps ?[18:34:08] <lunaphyte> yes[18:34:48] <lunaphyte> it's not necessarily intuitive, but see the "postfix email/firewall gateway" section in standard_configuration_readme[18:35:24] <lunaphyte> it describes disabling local mail delivery, which would apply for your scenario as well[18:38:00] <v0lZy> reading it now, thanks[18:38:16] *** UQlev has quit IRC[18:43:06] <v0lZy> i suppose i comment out the 'local' in master.cf to disable local delivery?[18:44:21] <lunaphyte> huh?[18:44:31] <lunaphyte> the section i directed you to covers that[18:47:05] <v0lZy> yeah but it says local delivery agent[18:47:10] <v0lZy> i assume thats the 'local' there.[18:47:26] <rob0> wow, you don't just want to disable local, you want to eradicate it![18:47:37] <v0lZy> :D[18:47:51] <v0lZy> i dont want anything to do with it, correct[18:47:53] <lunaphyte> the instructions i offered will effectively disable local delivery. nothing else is necessary.[18:48:20] <v0lZy> i dont understand this part[18:48:21] <v0lZy> Translation:[18:48:21] <v0lZy> Line 2: Send mail from this machine as "user at example dot com", so that no reason exists to send mail to "user at firewall dot example.com".[18:48:28] <v0lZy> line 2 of what?[18:48:49] <v0lZy> oh[18:48:50] <v0lZy> never mind[18:48:51] <lunaphyte> you could, of course, remove local form master as well, if you like, but that is not required to disable local delivery[18:48:52] <v0lZy> i get it now[18:49:01] <v0lZy> thats 'translation' of what was set in those parameters, doh.[18:49:01] <v0lZy> ok[18:49:03] <v0lZy> never mind[18:51:04] <v0lZy> mynetworks_style = host ... does that mean, if there should by chance be local users wanting to email, postfix automatically trusts them? What If i want to have any and all users have to use a username and password? do i just do mynetworks =[18:51:05] <v0lZy> ?[18:51:21] <v0lZy> erm.. i mean mynetworks_style =[18:52:32] <lunaphyte> leave mynetworks_style alone. omit it from your config. unset mynetworks[18:52:50] <lunaphyte> and of course, do not use allow_mynetworks in any of your restrictions[18:54:08] <rob0> permit_[18:54:17] <lunaphyte> whoops[18:54:21] <lunaphyte> permit_mynetworks[18:54:46] <rob0> Also, that has nothing to do with sendmail(1) submission:[18:54:55] <rob0> !authorized_submit_users[18:54:55] <knoba> rob0: "authorized_submit_users" : List of users who are authorized to submit mail with the sendmail(1) command (and with the privileged postdrop(1) helper command).[18:54:55] <lunaphyte> right[18:57:51] <v0lZy> lunaphyte: Does the relaydomains part apply ?[18:58:04] <lunaphyte> it depends[18:58:08] <v0lZy> What i want is a mail server which will save files in maildir and they will be served to users via dovecot[18:58:13] <lunaphyte> where does mail go after postfix?[18:58:24] <v0lZy> I dont want any restrictions to where the email server can send to.[18:58:26] <lunaphyte> well, if you're using dovecot, then i'd use relay_domains, yes[18:58:39] <lunaphyte> are you using a content_filter as well?[18:58:53] <v0lZy> no[18:59:01] <v0lZy> I am planning on useing mailroute[18:59:05] <v0lZy> using*[18:59:25] <lunaphyte> oh, a third party?[18:59:32] <v0lZy> and they have an option for outbound email control, but ill get to that later, for the time being, I dont intend any outbound filtering[18:59:34] <lunaphyte> then you can't run your mail server as your mx[19:00:01] <lunaphyte> you won't be able to impose any additional restrictions at all that you might want.[19:00:09] <lunaphyte> you'll be limited to whatever they use.[19:00:12] <v0lZy> yeah, i know, i will add a priority for the service once im satisfied that i can send/receive with this email server[19:00:23] <v0lZy> oh[19:00:25] <lunaphyte> priority for the service?[19:00:40] <v0lZy> Well.. some restrictions i do want... things like max size of email message i allow to go out, stuff lik ethat[19:00:54] <lunaphyte> we're talking about "incoming" mail, not outgoing.[19:01:03] <v0lZy> well, i just set the mailroute host as my mx record then they forward to me.[19:01:12] <lunaphyte> yes, we know how email works.[19:01:17] <v0lZy> relaydomains... isnt that for outgoing?[19:01:30] <lunaphyte> huh?[19:01:49] <lunaphyte> why would you think that?[19:02:05] <lunaphyte> first of all, there is no "incoming" or "outgoing"[19:02:12] <lunaphyte> all mail comes in and goes out[19:02:15] <v0lZy> because it says By default, posfix relaxy mail from "trusted" clients to any destination...[19:02:53] <lunaphyte> where[19:03:11] <v0lZy> iny ma main.cf file[19:03:36] <lunaphyte> please stop telling us about things and simply show them in a pastebin[19:03:54] <v0lZy> hm, sec[19:04:57] <v0lZy> http://bpaste.net/show/9IUE4RxdesQ70sJU1agt/[19:05:43] <v0lZy> I guess its just choice of words... english isnt my first language[19:06:06] <v0lZy> i think of relay as 'person A gives it to postfix, postfix gives it to person B'[19:06:28] <lunaphyte> correct.[19:06:28] <v0lZy> it doesnt really say 'stuff u send' and 'stuff others send u'[19:06:39] <v0lZy> so it can be viewed from which ever perspective[19:06:45] <lunaphyte> no sms speak here please.[19:06:56] <lunaphyte> it's not "person b" though.[19:07:07] <lunaphyte> person a gives mail to postfix, then postfix gives mail to dovecot.[19:07:07] <v0lZy> but relay_Domain = $mydestination... that would then for example mean, accept from mydestination and handover to mydestination?[19:07:16] <lunaphyte> dovecot is "person b"[19:07:25] <lunaphyte> no[19:07:43] <lunaphyte> you wouldn't use the default setting.[19:07:59] <lunaphyte> mydestination is empty anyway. you unset it[19:08:14] <v0lZy> In my case, with virtual mailboxes, only, i should relay_domains for all my virtual domains, right?[19:08:39] <lunaphyte> i suggested you use dovecot as your mda.[19:08:51] <lunaphyte> if you do that, you are not using "virtual mailboxes"[19:09:00] <lunaphyte> not in postfix terms anyway[19:09:15] <v0lZy> Oh, I see[19:09:53] <v0lZy> I thought postfix accepts email for the users/domains it knows, and then just throws them into separate folders.. and imap is sort of like ftp[19:10:07] <v0lZy> does postfix leave the putting stuff into folders to dovecote completely?[19:10:44] <lunaphyte> if you use the postfix virtual(8) lda, then yes, postfix writes the mail to the filesystem. you'd then configure dovecot to retrieve if from wherever postfix puts it.[19:11:01] <v0lZy> as in 'oh, i know this domain, here mr. dovecote, here at postfix we dont really care what user its addressed to, just that its a domain we handle... so here you go, file it where you deem appropriate'[19:11:07] <lunaphyte> if instead, you use dovecot as your lda, then postfix simply gives the mail to dovecot, and dovecot takes care of writing the mail to the filesystem[19:11:36] <lunaphyte> in both cases, postfix will only accept mail for valid users at valid domains[19:11:58] <v0lZy> So I have to keep track of usernames/passwords for postfix, and for dovecot?[19:12:16] <v0lZy> I assume its just for dovecot[19:12:35] <lunaphyte> well, really, neither.[19:12:40] <v0lZy> and postfix only cares about username@domain matching a certain directory[19:12:41] <lunaphyte> you're not running an mx.[19:12:58] <lunaphyte> you'll have to provide your mx with a list of valid domains and recipients.[19:13:09] <lunaphyte> and you'll have to constantly keep that list updated[19:13:15] <v0lZy> .... ?[19:13:21] <v0lZy> hold on.[19:13:48] <Patrickdk> it's best you just keep one list, and rebuild one or both based on it[19:14:00] <v0lZy> I'm interested in configuring a mail server to use for like 10 people. IMAP access through dovecot, web access through roundcube or someting[19:14:15] <lunaphyte> dovecot is an imap client, that's all.[19:14:18] <lunaphyte> whoops[19:14:26] <lunaphyte> *roundcube is an imap client, that's all.[19:14:26] <staticsafe> imap server*[19:14:29] <staticsafe> oh[19:14:47] <v0lZy> lunaphyte: yeah, the way i understand its just a webgui version of something like thunderbird[19:14:51] <lunaphyte> anyway, that's really immterial[19:14:56] <lunaphyte> *immaterial[19:15:11] <v0lZy> and dovecot is only concerned with sorting which username password applies to which directory and speaking the imap language to manage messages.[19:15:28] <lunaphyte> eh, no, but ok.[19:15:45] <v0lZy> :|[19:16:08] <v0lZy> Sorry, im a bit thick :[19:17:10] <v0lZy> so... relay_domains ... those are domains I want postfix to a) accept email for delivery to those domains, b) accept email for delivery from those domains, c) both ... (please provide a b or c :D)[19:17:14] <lunaphyte> it's fine. that's just an oversimplification[19:17:35] <lunaphyte> relay_domains controls which domains postfix will accept mail for.[19:17:56] <lunaphyte> or to be clear, it's one way to control which domains postfix will accept mail for.[19:18:31] <v0lZy> ergh.. that doesnt really make it clear for me... accept mail for delivery TO or accept mail FROM for delivery to someone else?[19:18:32] <lunaphyte> but the thing is, you can't really be picky about that in your scenario[19:18:53] <lunaphyte> you're trying to create a distinction that doesn't exist.[19:19:21] <v0lZy> ipsofacto, if its not A, and its not B, its C?[19:19:26] <lunaphyte> no[19:19:49] <v0lZy> ok, im utterly lost :D[19:19:53] <lunaphyte> you're inventing irrelevant qualifiers.[19:20:23] <v0lZy> are these 'relay_domains' domains, postfix considers itself 'authorized to handle email to/from'[19:20:29] <lunaphyte> you use relay domains to control if postfix will accept messages or not. period.[19:20:38] <lunaphyte> not to/from[19:20:53] <lunaphyte> stop with the to/from, sent/received, incoming/outgoing.[19:20:56] <lunaphyte> all mail does that, everywhere.[19:21:02] <lunaphyte> it's a useless distinction[19:21:12] <v0lZy> but, i dont want to receive email for just any address[19:21:27] <lunaphyte> you can't really control that in your scenario.[19:21:30] <lunaphyte> you're not the mx[19:21:57] <lunaphyte> you can't use someone else as your mx, and the start rejecting messages they pass along to you.[19:22:11] <v0lZy> urhm, ok, lets flip this around. My dns record's main MX entry points to me.[19:22:21] <v0lZy> for the time being, that makes me the mx.[19:22:24] <lunaphyte> you said mailroute[19:22:28] <lunaphyte> now it's not mailroute?[19:22:39] <v0lZy> yes, mailroute AFTER im sure i can receive and send emails from this box[19:22:49] <v0lZy> after that, its just a matter of changing the MX record.[19:23:00] <lunaphyte> sort of.[19:23:32] <lunaphyte> anyway, it's fine. you'll just have to learn that lesson if it happens.[19:23:37] <lunaphyte> it probably [hopefully] won't[19:23:52] <v0lZy> well, to be accurate, change my MX recorts to point to theri servers, then on their servers, point the mail they receive for each of my domains, to my server.[19:23:55] *** ced117 has quit IRC[19:24:00] *** Patrickdk has quit IRC[19:24:07] <lunaphyte> correct[19:24:19] <v0lZy> But thats easy to do on their web interface.[19:24:25] <lunaphyte> so yes, with postfix as the mx, then you control what it accepts with relay_domains [one of a number of choices for doing that][19:24:36] <lunaphyte> it's not about that.[19:24:55] <lunaphyte> it's about what happens when their system breaks and starts allowing through mail that it shouldn't be[19:24:58] <v0lZy> ok.. so what should i set my relay_domains to... for the time being, i only have 1 domain[19:25:00] <lunaphyte> mail to invalid recipients.[19:25:07] <lunaphyte> list your domain in relay_domains.[19:25:28] <v0lZy> but in the future, if this works, ill have more domains[19:25:30] <lunaphyte> list your email addresses in relay_recipient_maps[19:25:32] <v0lZy> can i point this parameter to a file?[19:25:33] <v0lZy> like[19:25:44] <v0lZy> relay_domains = /etc/postfix/relay_domains[19:25:44] <lunaphyte> of course[19:25:47] <lunaphyte> read the documentation[19:25:48] <v0lZy> and in there i just list them 1 per line?[19:26:24] <lunaphyte> then configure dovecot to accept mail via lmtp, and configure postfix's relay_domains to deliver to dovecot[19:26:39] <lunaphyte> bah[19:26:45] <lunaphyte> relay_transport i mean[19:27:08] *** ced117 has joined #postfix[19:27:09] <v0lZy> ok, i did relay_domains = /etc/postfix/relaydomains[19:27:25] <v0lZy> and in there i put my domain.[19:27:25] <lunaphyte> relay_transport = dovecot:[mda.example.com]:lmtp[19:27:30] <lunaphyte> for example.[19:27:44] <lunaphyte> where "dovecot" is listed as a service in master.cf[19:27:55] <lunaphyte> i've got to run for now. good luck.[19:28:16] <v0lZy> thanks so far lunaphyte[19:28:22] <v0lZy> catch you later i hope[19:30:14] *** Bronze has quit IRC[19:30:33] *** Bronze has joined #postfix[19:52:07] *** Hydrazine has quit IRC[19:54:47] *** Hydrazine has joined #postfix[20:11:12] *** snearch has quit IRC[20:13:09] *** Patrickdk has joined #postfix[21:05:37] *** e66 has joined #postfix[21:13:40] *** HaxCore has joined #postfix[21:16:43] *** p3rror has quit IRC[21:16:59] <lunaphyte> v0lZy: i'm back for a few minutes if you're still working on it[21:32:13] *** HaxCore has quit IRC[21:50:39] *** p3rror has joined #postfix[21:55:05] *** p3rror has quit IRC[21:59:09] <v0lZy> i am :D[21:59:24] <v0lZy> but i think i capitulated for today.[22:00:17] *** p3rror has joined #postfix[22:00:32] <v0lZy> lunaphyte; thanks for the notice though[22:00:39] <lunaphyte> no wories[22:00:42] <lunaphyte> *worries[22:00:45] <v0lZy> I hope I can continue to pester you for help tomorrow :D[22:00:58] <lunaphyte> well, there are others who can help too[22:01:25] <v0lZy> I think i'll need a lot of help.[22:01:58] <v0lZy> Never took a microscope to email before.[22:02:18] <v0lZy> I worked with Axigen and Mdaemon.[22:02:20] <lunaphyte> !easy[22:02:20] <knoba> lunaphyte: "easy" : unfortunately, because there are some folks who invest the time and effort to understand things, it makes emailing very easy for lots of other people, which seems to foster the notion that it couldn't possibly be any more complex than clicking send. this, of course, is not the case. as with most things, you get what you put in. also see !maintain[22:02:23] <lunaphyte> ;)[22:02:49] <v0lZy> heh :D[22:03:00] <v0lZy> Those 2 are pretty straightforward... well Mdaemon much more so than Axigen.[22:04:10] <v0lZy> I use archlinux myself, and it's got a pretty good wiki with loads of stuff on loads of things[22:04:29] <v0lZy> But whenever I google for postfix + dovecot and all that stuff[22:04:35] <lunaphyte> !google[22:04:36] <knoba> lunaphyte: "google" : Those who use Google before reading the Postfix documentation, if fortunate, end up at http://www.postfix.org/ . If not, they end up in a jumble of bad questions, misleading or wrong answers, and outdated information.[22:04:50] <v0lZy> most of the tutorials and howtos on this topic are ..... limited to using with mysql[22:05:04] <lunaphyte> the fact that we have factoids at the ready for al of these things should be a bit of an indicator... ;)[22:05:14] <v0lZy> yeah :D[22:05:16] *** ced117 has quit IRC[22:05:20] <lunaphyte> yes, everyone seems to have a hard on for sql[22:05:26] <v0lZy> I dont.[22:05:27] <lunaphyte> especially the ones who don't know what they're doing.[22:05:42] <v0lZy> I am afraid of databases :D[22:05:51] <lunaphyte> ldap is what you should be using, if you're going to use a third party mechanism in that context.[22:05:59] <v0lZy> black holes where strange things happen.[22:06:37] *** shal3r has quit IRC[22:07:14] <v0lZy> Well, from what research I did, I believe what I want is pretty straight forward... e-mail messages stored in Maildir format so that I can easily backup only the most recent ones with rsync.[22:07:40] <lunaphyte> maildir is better than mbox, yes.[22:07:48] <lunaphyte> [we're not going to get into corner cases][22:07:51] <v0lZy> I want to have it in filesystem, so I can use rsync obviously... and also because its easy to restore on a per message or per directory basis[22:08:05] <lunaphyte> if your using dovecot as your mda, then you haven even a few additional interesting storage choices[22:08:09] <lunaphyte> *you're[22:08:22] <v0lZy> Like?[22:09:09] <v0lZy> Then on top of this maildir thing, I want some IMAP access... and over that, roundcube or something simillar... I dont want any groupware or anything, and if i did go that route, id go with caldav and such[22:09:17] <lunaphyte> see the dovecot mailboxformat wiki page[22:09:50] <lunaphyte> essentially, dbox [and its variants][22:10:50] <v0lZy> But for the time being, just plain email... I know enough about how email works (well, not down to the protocol level, except for the initial HELO EHLO etc stuff that lets me script automated emails to keep track of things...) .... but postfix and dovecot seem to be really versatile... too versatile almost. You wonder about that unix paradigm of having 1 program do 1 thing and do it good... here it kind of went out the window :D[22:11:19] <lunaphyte> not really.[22:11:34] <lunaphyte> it's a stellar example of that paradigm.[22:11:45] <lunaphyte> postfix does smtp, and does it well.[22:13:28] <lunaphyte> in keeping with that paradigm, that's exactly why postfix doesn't do complex policy management, and instead implements a simple policy server for delegation to other software, which does policy handling and does it well[22:13:38] <v0lZy> the whole local/virtual seems unnecessery though...[22:14:00] <lunaphyte> it's also why postfix doesn't do content filtering, and instead implements a simple mechanism[s] to use external content filters[22:14:19] <lunaphyte> why would it seem unnecessary? because it doesn't apply to your particular set of curcumstances?[22:14:24] <lunaphyte> *circumstances[22:14:32] <v0lZy> No, not because of that.[22:15:18] <v0lZy> My reason for my thinking is simplicity.[22:15:42] <lunaphyte> i guess i don't follow[22:15:57] <v0lZy> the whole local / virtual destinction is really unnecessery if you ask me.[22:16:33] <lunaphyte> you're not educated enough on the topic to know.[22:16:33] <v0lZy> It could all be virtual... and it would still apply to systems that arent connected to the internet, serve only within the orginaziation etc[22:16:45] <lunaphyte> that's not local/virtual[22:17:06] <lunaphyte> local/virtual [etc] are *specific* terms that means a distinct thing within postfix.[22:17:19] <lunaphyte> see address_class_readme. it's actually quite simple.[22:17:50] <v0lZy> I lack exactness here, but local mail accounts tied to system users and /home directories etc seems something from the age when I dont know... each server served only 1 domain.[22:17:51] <lunaphyte> very well organized[22:17:59] <lunaphyte> no, not at all.[22:18:37] <lunaphyte> you might just have to accept for now that just because you can't envision a simple, straightforward application for these other things doesn't mean there isn't one.[22:18:52] <v0lZy> well... just having email in your /home directory seems like a bust if u have many users .... mail comes and goes daily, files dont necesserily change that much... two completely different backup paradigms...[22:18:54] *** shal3r has joined #postfix[22:19:03] <lunaphyte> not really.[22:19:16] <v0lZy> now if u have 1000 users on a system... i doubt you want 1000 mount points ....[22:19:24] <v0lZy> (not that this is strictly related)[22:19:35] <lunaphyte> i use "virtual" users, but they all have home directories with mail within them[22:19:43] <v0lZy> but it would make sense to me to have storage separated also by what it stores...[22:19:49] <lunaphyte> possibly.[22:20:06] <v0lZy> Like, take my current setup with Axigen[22:20:08] <lunaphyte> every scenario is different. there is no empirical right answer[22:21:15] <v0lZy> I store email on a separate physical disk... for many reasons... access speed for example (dont want users copying large files to the server impacting mail server performance for example)[22:22:00] <v0lZy> also want a different filesystem for a lot of small files[22:22:04] <adaptr> ...why do you think "copying large files" will impact mail speed in any way ? that just shows you lack understanding of how storage works[22:22:46] <v0lZy> adaptr: not necesseirly mail speed.. more like accessing the emails[22:23:09] *** shinao1 has joined #postfix[22:23:16] <adaptr> since mail is generally small, that is what that means[22:24:11] <v0lZy> adaptr: if you burden the disk with big continious file writes... i dont know, say that you are copying a movie[22:24:20] <v0lZy> it really really hits the performance hard[22:24:55] <v0lZy> try copying a 3 gb file over the network and playing a movie from the same disk you are copying to[22:25:11] <v0lZy> I have a raid1 mdadm array from two 7200 rpm disks here and well, it cant handle that[22:25:17] <v0lZy> movie's unwatchable.[22:25:59] <v0lZy> simillarly, if you have many users accessing the email and then start copying a large file to the same disk that holds the email, they will suffer for it[22:26:20] <v0lZy> particularly when they simultaniously want to drag and drop or delete or copy or whatever many files at the same time[22:27:05] <v0lZy> a few users clearing out their old mail in bulk can totally kill a system as it is.[22:27:22] <v0lZy> not that the system goes into insane amounts of load necesserily[22:27:23] <lunaphyte> wanting to store mail [or any given class of data] on a separate disk/mount point/whatever is certainly understandable, for any number of given reasons based on a particular set of circumstances. but that's doesn't need to be innately tied to whether or not mail is delivered to a user's home directory. there are plenty of ways to handle that.[22:27:40] <v0lZy> just each users client gets more or less unresponsive, error messages start popping up etc[22:28:21] <adaptr> you scale your storage to the performance you need. this is not rocket science.[22:28:45] <v0lZy> adaptr: mail needs different performance then fileserver do.[22:29:03] <v0lZy> or databases[22:29:04] <v0lZy> etc[22:29:14] <adaptr> mail causes different storage access patterns[22:29:30] <adaptr> "performance" is a misleading and inaccurate term[22:29:59] <v0lZy> if you keep all your stuff in /home, you're mixing different kind of data.... which for a single user doesnt mean much, but if u scale to multiple users, its simply absurd to have a mount point for each one in their /home just for email...[22:30:15] <adaptr> v0lZy: it's spelled "you".[22:30:25] <v0lZy> yeah, sorry about the u/you thing... old habbit.[22:30:28] <v0lZy> habit*[22:30:38] <adaptr> it is is also abbreviated "it's".[22:30:59] <thumbs> genuine mistakes I can understand[22:31:00] <v0lZy> Well, I dont want to argue against what you guys are saying, you know more about email than I do for sure. Just want you to understand my views.[22:31:10] <thumbs> but using 'u' and 'y' is not acceptable :)[22:31:28] <adaptr> it's not even conceivable.[22:32:00] <v0lZy> English isn't my first language, I make a lot of spelling mistakes and typos.[22:32:20] <v0lZy> And in my language, we only use ' for quotation.. and even then its actually " most of the time.[22:32:35] <adaptr> you could have fooled me. once you attain a certain level of proficiency, that stops being an excuse.[22:33:03] <v0lZy> Eh, I'm self taught.[22:33:14] <adaptr> ...again, not germane[22:33:38] <v0lZy> I have Terminator 2 to thank for whatever English I picked up.. must have seen it 20+ times by the time I was 6.[22:33:53] <adaptr> there's thss word, "prevarification". you're doing it.[22:33:54] <v0lZy> Then there's hours upon hours of teenage mutant ninja turtles :D[22:34:30] <adaptr> any chance you are going to go back on topic ?[22:34:55] <v0lZy> adaptr: I've never been good at spelling, and if my IRC client wouldn't underline all the mistakes I make, I'd make a lot more.[22:35:12] <v0lZy> adaptr: IRC sure didn't help my typing habits though D:[22:35:28] <v0lZy> Erm,,... yeah, sorry.[22:36:43] <v0lZy> Anyway, you/u its/it's and all the preconceptions aside, I would find it a lot more coherent if there was no local vs virtual aspects.[22:37:39] <v0lZy> Since virtual can obviously replace local given that everyone just authenticates over the network... and local can't to my knowledge.[22:37:50] <v0lZy> can't replace virtual I mean.[22:40:43] <adaptr> but more to the point, virtual cannot replace local[22:41:15] <adaptr> postfix works the way it works. I suggest you learn the facts, instead of re-inventing locomotive non-starters[22:41:18] <v0lZy> Purely for my education, can you provide an example?[22:41:44] <adaptr> aliases, for one.[22:42:02] <adaptr> you should probably study the differences between local(8) and virtual(8). they speak for themselves[22:42:27] <v0lZy> I am studying all of it, but It will still take some time.[22:43:00] <v0lZy> Was hoping to also have a conversation about it... I'm past asking for help today, can't concentrate on it anymore.[22:44:09] <v0lZy> In what way do you suggest aliases can't be replaced... domain aliases? individual mailbox aliases? username vs user part of the user@mail address?[22:46:07] <v0lZy> and is this due to the way postfix is made? My original critique was that it would be more coherent (which I deem better), if there wasn't such a destinction.[22:46:47] <adaptr> any of the ways in which postfix allows alias_maps to be used. they are many[22:48:26] <v0lZy> Could you bring that down to my level? :)[22:48:52] <v0lZy> Do you mean things like aliases for daemons etc that whish to send notices etc via mail?[22:48:53] <adaptr> ..as I already said, local(8) will tell you how the alias file(s) are used.[22:49:30] <adaptr> what you say would be possible to make, of course. anything is *possible*. but it is not the way postfix works.[22:50:06] <v0lZy> Ah, now I understand what you are saying.[22:50:56] <v0lZy> The point I wanted to make is exactly that it would be better if that's how it was made (not criticizing anyone here, just throwing in some n00b requests).[22:51:47] <v0lZy> But yes, it's here, it's free and it comes the way it does, noone's putting a gun to anyone's head and telling them they must use it.[22:52:10] <v0lZy> And with that in mind, it is due the appreciation it deserves.[22:59:12] <lunaphyte> the thing is, if you're using dovecot as your lda, and thus using the relay domain class [again, we're not getting into special corner cases], then you just really don't need to worry about local(8) or virtual(8)[23:00:59] <v0lZy> lunaphyte: I just add the domains I will be catering to as relay_domains right?[23:01:06] <lunaphyte> right.[23:01:16] <lunaphyte> and you add the email addresses to relay_recipient_maps[23:01:41] <v0lZy> oh... not to virtutual_mailbox_maps?[23:01:45] <lunaphyte> nope[23:01:53] <lunaphyte> not if you're using dovecot as your lda.[23:02:22] <lunaphyte> virtual_mailbox_maps is for virtual(8), the lda provided by postfix.[23:03:37] <v0lZy> I gather i can make a relay_recipients file and list email@address dirpath pairs?[23:03:55] <adaptr> you can. it doesn't do anything, but you can.[23:04:15] <v0lZy> ... uhm...[23:04:29] <adaptr> a quirk of the postfix database design is that every map file must have a RHS. including lists.[23:04:37] <v0lZy> RHS?[23:04:48] <adaptr> Right-Hand Side[23:05:10] <lunaphyte> list email@address dirpath pairs? why would you do that?[23:05:14] <adaptr> for lists, the actual RHS is ignored.[23:05:44] <adaptr> examples of lists are mydestination, virtual_alias_domains, and, indeed, relay_recipient_maps[23:05:49] <lunaphyte> relay_recipient_maps lists valid recipients. it's simply a pas/fail mechanism.[23:06:00] <lunaphyte> you don't list where mail is delivered on the filesystem.[23:06:08] <v0lZy> lunaphyte: I assumed thats what goes into the relay_recipients... a list of recipients email addresses... and well... their RHS had to be something, going by virtual_mailbox_maps i thought that should be dirpath[23:06:14] <adaptr> well, you have to list something.[23:06:19] <lunaphyte> just "ok"[23:06:26] <adaptr> or "relay"[23:06:28] <lunaphyte> sure[23:06:30] *** UQlev has joined #postfix[23:06:37] <adaptr> or "master Bater"[23:06:47] <lunaphyte> "peanut allergy"[23:06:54] <adaptr> "may contain nuts"[23:06:55] <v0lZy> ben dover[23:07:01] <adaptr> "1"[23:07:07] <adaptr> or even "0"[23:07:11] <lunaphyte> "!!!!!1111oneoneone"[23:07:18] <v0lZy> lolcat![23:07:21] <adaptr> don't forget eleventy[23:07:45] <adaptr> the POINT is, postfix databases all expect A result. lists simply don't care what the result is.[23:08:16] <v0lZy> I see[23:08:37] <adaptr> I use a regex for mydestination (to include all second-level domains), and they just say MINE!MINE?MINE![23:08:39] <v0lZy> so this should probably be hash:/etc/postfix/relay_recipients[23:08:52] <lunaphyte> sure[23:08:55] <adaptr> it can be whatever map type your installation supports. there's more than a dozen[23:09:19] <adaptr> for anything up to 100K entries, a hash: map will do fine.[23:09:35] <v0lZy> 100k...[23:09:46] <v0lZy> i wonder who has more than that... obviously gmail etc.[23:09:51] <lunaphyte> and that's being conservative too[23:09:53] <v0lZy> but at that point, u probably want more than 1 computer also so...[23:10:13] <lunaphyte> please no sms speak. second warning.[23:10:21] <adaptr> yes, a centralized database will become useful long before then.[23:11:04] *** mechanicalduck has joined #postfix[23:11:36] <v0lZy> argh, sorry, It keeps escaping me[23:11:49] <v0lZy> It really is a nasty habit to shake, I'm sorry.[23:13:27] <v0lZy> Whats with the spelling rules here... an indulgence or are there any technical reasons?[23:15:40] *** UQlev has quit IRC[23:25:21] *** shinao1 has quit IRC[23:26:09] <adaptr> well, for starters, it makes you come across as an uneducated, juvenile nitwit.[23:26:14] <adaptr> I'd think that'd be enough[23:33:23] *** shinao1 has joined #postfix[23:37:12] *** shinao1 has joined #postfix[23:41:07] <v0lZy> Although I never finished my studies, I studied Japanese, which requires one to pick up an interest in linguistics really.[23:42:07] *** maxmahem has joined #postfix[23:43:01] <v0lZy> Anyway, one of the ... lets call them laws, is, that languages perpetually evolve. Words get more meanings and consequently, new words with specific meanings are introduced, where often, these words are alloys of other words.[23:43:36] <v0lZy> As such, one thing that holds in any language is that the root of each word tends to progress, while everything else is subject to change.[23:43:50] <adaptr> v0lZy: apart from being massivley offtopic for this channel, you're still trying to justify your mistakes. please stop.[23:44:22] <v0lZy> I'm not 'justifying' anything, just sheding some light on what might be ultimately a lost effort[23:44:46] *** p3rror has quit IRC[23:45:08] <v0lZy> Point is, that while framing a language is necessary for efficient communication, fighting it is doomed to failure.[23:45:31] <adaptr> you're justifying the things you've been told not to do.[23:45:57] <adaptr> don't do it. simple.[23:46:07] <v0lZy> I'm not justifying, I am making a conscious effort to spell properly.[23:46:36] <adaptr> in what happens to be a massively offtopic soliloqui[23:46:43] <adaptr> again, please stop[23:47:42] <v0lZy> I just want to point out that chinese for example suffered from this. Their vocal pool was defacto limited to around 235 sylabils (?spelling) to which they were forced to add 4 tones to keep up with the development of technology and new words[23:47:55] <adaptr> v0lZy: cut it out.[23:48:20] <lunaphyte> i'm ok with inquiries as to why. let's just say it's simply a channel convention.[23:49:23] <lunaphyte> we tend to subscribe quite religiously to the "doing something different should solve a problem" mantra.[23:49:33] <v0lZy> Consequently, when even that wasnt enough, they had to start repeating words to convey the same meaning, so now they say 'xiexie' to say thank you instead of 'xie' which otherwise carries the same meaning, at least as far as writting is concerned. This used to be a rare thing a few hundred years ago, but now statistically, a rise of such words has been recorded, with words going into the 3 syllable range where repeating is less often... anyw[23:49:48] <lunaphyte> you could [perhaps] argue that in text messaging, character limitations beget certain shorthand conventions.[23:50:02] <adaptr> or you could just say less.[23:50:16] <adaptr> in the idle hope the result would mean more[23:50:24] <lunaphyte> while the validity of that argument is quite questionable, it's non existent on irc.[23:50:43] * adaptr hands lunaphyte a hyphen[23:51:05] * lunaphyte break it in half and hands it back[23:51:08] <lunaphyte> *breaks[23:51:10] <lunaphyte> hungry[23:51:40] <adaptr> I am the official Keeper of lunaphyte's Interpunction[23:51:56] <v0lZy> lunaphyte: My point is, as thing progress and one is forced to handle more information, shorthand is like a compression that keeps the communication sane. Chinese on the otherhand is still picketfenced around the 235 original syllables[23:51:56] <adaptr> I'll be needing that halphen later[23:52:05] <v0lZy> with the*[23:52:29] <lunaphyte> i'm not in such a rush that i can't simply type another two characters.[23:52:44] <lunaphyte> i'm also not terribly interested in dealing with someone who thinks they are[23:52:57] <lunaphyte> i'd rather things slow down, not speed up.[23:53:04] <adaptr> lunaphyte++[23:53:10] <lunaphyte> but anyway, this is all off topic.[23:54:12] *** mibofra has quit IRC[23:54:23] <v0lZy> ... purely from a philosophical perspective, what's your attitude towards abbreviations ? :D IMAP, POP, SMTP, DHCP, IP, TCP, UDP, ...[23:54:35] <v0lZy> (they make communication sane) :D[23:54:56] <lunaphyte> btw, i appreciate your initial response, that was a breath of fresh air. quite a departure from the typical attitude we get here, so that's a nice change.[23:55:25] <v0lZy> CPU, HDD, PSU, SSD, LVM, RAID, ALU, ECC, DDR, ...[23:55:31] <lunaphyte> heh. yes, i'm ok with actual acronyms defined by way of their technical definition[23:55:33] <adaptr> v0lZy: those are not abbreviations.[23:55:48] <lunaphyte> [i'm assuming you meant acronyms, not abbreviations][23:55:48] <adaptr> they're also unambiguous[23:55:56] <v0lZy> Ah, yes, sorry, acronyms, my bad.[23:56:00] <lunaphyte> well, most, anyway :)[23:56:46] <v0lZy> Yes, what I mean is acronyms ... we call them shorthands in my language ... its not a 1:1 translation.. though we do use the word akronim for acronyms, but its frowned upon as a foregin word...[23:57:00] <v0lZy> Alas, we lack the destinction and as established such destinctions become necessery... :D[23:57:48] <v0lZy> Anyone, one could argue that I is a shorthand :D[23:59:16] <v0lZy> I is actually a short version of old english 'Ic'[23:59:42] <v0lZy> which goes hand in hand with Ich (german) and (Ik) dutch...[23:59:59] <v0lZy> you is a longer version of ye...